Does a NonFounding pastor have the right to decide whether

[Chosen]

the church stays UPCI or leaves without having a church vote???

[staysharp]

the church stays UPCI or leaves without having a church vote???

That would depend on the by-laws. Does the church have any? If not, or they do not specify, the next question would be if the church was affiliated. If so, there is another level to consider. If not, it really doesn't matter anyway.

[josh]

A church is only "UPC" if it is affiliated. If it is, then the UPC requires a vote with the district superintendent invited to represent the UPC. He may send a stand-in.

If the church is not affiliated, then they have no say at all because the UPC is fundamentally a preacher's fellowship. The preacher can drop his license. If he doesn't go out under question very little changes.

[seguidordejesus]

I don't understand what a founding pastor has to do with it. It's all about the bylaws.

[Pastor G]

Do you have the right to sell, give or throw away something someone gave you?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Do you have the right to sell, give or throw away something someone gave you?

If you purchased a franchisee - don't you have the right to move the product around to help it sell better?

[PastorD]

I don't understand what a founding pastor has to do with it. It's all about the bylaws.

Your not on a church board are you? :bouquet

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Your not on a church board are you? :bouquet

This is a dumb thread.

So what if a church is not Pastored by a founding pastor- what if that Pastor fell in sin? Do we expect the current Pastor to continue and likewise fall in sin? What if the church was a former Trinitarian church fully converted, do we then demand the current Pastor not teach truth.

God forbid we forget God gave Pastors to watch for our souls, giving account for our lives, or having blood on their hands at the time of judgement.

[PastorD]

This is a dumb thread.

So what if a church is not Pastored by a founding pastor- what if that Pastor fell in sin? Do we expect the current Pastor to continue and likewise fall in sin? What if the church was a former Trinitarian church fully converted, do we then demand the current Pastor not teach truth.

God forbid we forget God gave Pastors to watch for our souls, giving account for our lives, or having blood on their hands at the time of judgement.

can't the bylaws stand in judgement for us?

[Joseph Miller]

Our pastor is not the founding pastor of our church, but he has been there 18 years. If he wanted to pull I doubt he would much trouble getting the church to do so. We trust him and would follow him. I think a lot of churches would do the same with their pastor.

[pelathais]

The "founding pastor" language is used in the manual and suggested church constitution. That may be where Chosen got the phrase.

In that context the "founding pastor" is given more leeway than a successor. For this have any bearing, the local assembly itself must be affiliated or by some coincidence, be using the recommended church constitution.

Everything comes down to the by-laws of the local church. If you've been putting money into it but have never seen the by-laws or been to a business meeting, then you are probably in for some surprises. Every 501(c) not for profit corporation in the United States must have by-laws, a board and at least annual business meetings. Any church found skirting the law stands to loose its tax exempt status and face penalties. Often times the penalties are severe enough that the church looses it property.

[hometown guy]

the church stays UPCI or leaves without having a church vote???

yes yes yes yes yes yes unless your church bi laws state that you have to

[Joseph Miller]

NO ethical pastor would pull his church out of the UPCI without a vote.

[hometown guy]

NO ethical pastor would pull his church out of the UPCI without a vote.

your wrong

[Joseph Miller]

NO ethical pastor would pull his church out of the UPCI without a vote.

your wrong


Nope. If the church wishes to stay in the UPCI then the pastor should have NO right to pull it out. If he wants to leave and the church don't then he should resign and turn in his license allowing the church to have their wishes.

[hometown guy]

A church is only "UPC" if it is affiliated. If it is, then the UPC requires a vote with the district superintendent invited to represent the UPC. He may send a stand-in.

If the church is not affiliated, then they have no say at all because the UPC is fundamentally a preacher's fellowship. The preacher can drop his license. If he doesn't go out under question very little changes.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THIS POST

[pelathais]

EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THIS POST
The "affiliated" statement is absolutely correct. However in trying to answer Chosen's question, you've got to look at the variables as well.

Ever since the merger churches have been using the "Recommended Church Constitution" from the UPC Manual as the by-laws for the local assembly - even if the church was NOT affiliated. So it's likely that the hypothetical church Chosen is considering has this or some derivative form as its by-laws.

It all comes down to the local church's by-laws.

And Joseph Miller is correct. No ethical pastor would pull his church out of affiliation without a vote. He stands to lose the church property, his income and face an audit like you wouldn't believe if he doesn't follow the by-laws.

Your by-laws can say just about anything you want them to say. It's just you have to follow those by-laws or risk the 501(c) protection.

[MissBrattified]

If the church is affiliated with the UPCI, and the members want it that way, then I would think the pastor should allow the members to have a part in any decision, whether the by-laws allow for it or not.

If the church isn't affiliated, but the pastor is, then it is the pastor's decision whether or not he remains licensed with the UPCI. Obviously, he should inform the church of his decision, and probably share his reasons for doing so. His decision does affect the members, even if the church isn't affiliated. (Camps, rallies, missions, conferences, fellowship, etc.)

In general, I think it is wise for a pastor to communicate with the congregation. That doesn't mean that he needs to ask their permission.

As for the "founding pastor" part...I really don't care about that at all. (As a member.) I care what my current pastor has to say about things. I don't attend church because of who founded our church. I attend it because I like the present leadership.

[Sister Truth Seeker]

the church stays UPCI or leaves without having a church vote???In the church I used to attend the pastor had final say on everything, and controlled everything...so I would say Yes in that one case.

[Chosen]

The church is affiliated, and the pastor has UPCI lic.

There ae bylaws but I don't remember there being anything in them addressing this type of situation, so waht happens then, who gets to set the rules??

The Dist Super I understand would be a witness as he will probably bring someone else with him but he has no authority to set rules if not in bylaws...does he?

I have been in a couple of churches with a founding pastor and unless they do domething egregious it is almost impossible to kick them out and they judge and jury.

No I am not on the church board

Boom why is this thread dumb , I ask if i don't know, if it bothers you or hits too close to home for some reason move along

Boom we are all learned enough to understand many ministers put the flock in the top 5 but not necessarily #1, and many push their personal agenda regardless of the flock, thats reality not fantasy

Thank you Palathais for your input

I have heard that the pastor has already made a definite staement which way he was going to go which made me wonder if he could do that without a vote and that is why I am asking the question because the church is split on the issue

[StillStanding]

I'm wondering about those pastors who pull out, but their church name includes the words "United Pentecostal Church". i.e. Bonegap United Pentecoatal Church

Could the UPCI file a cease and desist order for a church using their trade marked name on their signs and advertising? Wouldn't these church be required to change their church name?

[Steadfast]

A church is only "UPC" if it is affiliated. If it is, then the UPC requires a vote with the district superintendent invited to represent the UPC. He may send a stand-in.

If the church is not affiliated, then they have no say at all because the UPC is fundamentally a preacher's fellowship. The preacher can drop his license. If he doesn't go out under question very little changes.

This is factually correct. Most Churches aren't 'affiliated' themselves... and are 'part of the UPC' only because their Pastor holds a license of his own personal choice.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

The church is affiliated, and the pastor has UPCI lic.

There ae bylaws but I don't remember there being anything in them addressing this type of situation, so waht happens then, who gets to set the rules??

The Dist Super I understand would be a witness as he will probably bring someone else with him but he has no authority to set rules if not in bylaws...does he?

No, he would be there as a representative of the District. The bylaws protect a congregation from losing the assembly if the Pastor wigs out. I have seen this and seen large churches built by all Pastors in a District become Charismatic overnight. The ministers who had worked on that church for many years all felt they indeed had a vested interested due to the sweat equity they invested. Affilation means the District Super becomes Pastor if the Pastor resigns. Not always a bad thing to be affilated.

I have been in a couple of churches with a founding pastor and unless they do domething egregious it is almost impossible to kick them out and they judge and jury.

No I am not on the church board

Boom why is this thread dumb , I ask if i don't know, if it bothers you or hits too close to home for some reason move along

Boom we are all learned enough to understand many ministers put the flock in the top 5 but not necessarily #1, and many push their personal agenda regardless of the flock, thats reality not fantasy

Thank you Palathais for your input

I have heard that the pastor has already made a definite staement which way he was going to go which made me wonder if he could do that without a vote and that is why I am asking the question because the church is split on the issue

I think all this questioning of the intents of a Pastor is silly. It can be seen from both sides- The founding Pastor was a strict UC and now the new Pastor wants to be on TV. Or the Founding Pastor was open to all ideas and the new man wants a more conservative approach.

It is not edifying at all. "My Pastor is judge and jury" is a broad statement opening you up to bitter replies. "My Pastor would ask no one to buy a new car, while he himself purchased one ever year" is much more balanced showing what the complaint is and not making a personal broad swipe.

[Steadfast]

I'm wondering about those pastors who pull out, but their church name includes the words "United Pentecostal Church". i.e. Bonegap United Pentecoatal Church

Could the UPCI file a cease and desist order for a church using their trade marked name on their signs and advertising? Wouldn't these church be required to change their church name?

Wow. Now that is a question that would be interesting to see an answer to.

[SDG]

I'm wondering about those pastors who pull out, but their church name includes the words "United Pentecostal Church". i.e. Bonegap United Pentecoatal Church

Could the UPCI file a cease and desist order for a church using their trade marked name on their signs and advertising? Wouldn't these church be required to change their church name?


I don't think so PM ... as the org's full name is United Pentecostal Church International ... various oneness Hispanic organizations have kept the United Pentecostal Church name in Spanish ... their churches carry the first three words just not INTERNATIONAL

Examples of other orgs w/ the United Pentecostal name

Iglesia Pentecostal Unida Latinoamericana
Iglesia Pentecostal Unida Hispana
Iglesia Pentecostal Unida de Colombia

Two of these orgs are situated in the U.S.

[Steadfast]

I don't think so PM ... as the org's full name is United Pentecostal Church International ... various oneness Hispanic organizations have kept the United Pentecostal Church name in Spanish ... their churches carry the first three words just not INTERNATIONAL

Examples of other orgs w/ the United Pentecostal name

Iglesia Pentecostal Unida Latinoamericana
Iglesia Pentecostal Unida Hispana
Iglesia Pentecostal Unida de Colombia

Two of these orgs are situated in the U.S.

Interesting.

[Chosen]

It is not edifying at all. "My Pastor is judge and jury" is a broad statement opening you up to bitter replies. "My Pastor would ask no one to buy a new car, while he himself purchased one ever year" is much more balanced showing what the complaint is and not making a personal broad swipe.[/QUOTE]

Boom that statement was not meant to be derogatory, truth is truth, in the couple of churches i used to attend whenever the pastor felt threatened or challenged he would remind everyone who started the church and that he had the final say period.

how simpler can that be said

[SDG]

Interesting.

The new org could choose a name like:

Global United Pentecostal Church

or

United Pentecostal Church Assemblies

or

United Pentecostal Church of Holiness

and be well w/ in legal boundaries ... iMO

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

It is not edifying at all. "My Pastor is judge and jury" is a broad statement opening you up to bitter replies. "My Pastor would ask no one to buy a new car, while he himself purchased one ever year" is much more balanced showing what the complaint is and not making a personal broad swipe.

Boom that statement was not meant to be derogatory, truth is truth, in the couple of churches i used to attend whenever the pastor felt threatened or challenged he would remind everyone who started the church and that he had the final say period.

how simpler can that be said

I accept you did not mean ill, and I as well have seen abuse in my 30+ yrs in Pentecost.

[Sister Alvear]

I would not sit under a pastor I could not trust...

[hometown guy]

The "affiliated" statement is absolutely correct. However in trying to answer Chosen's question, you've got to look at the variables as well.

Ever since the merger churches have been using the "Recommended Church Constitution" from the UPC Manual as the by-laws for the local assembly - even if the church was NOT affiliated. So it's likely that the hypothetical church Chosen is considering has this or some derivative form as its by-laws.

It all comes down to the local church's by-laws.

And Joseph Miller is correct. No ethical pastor would pull his church out of affiliation without a vote. He stands to lose the church property, his income and face an audit like you wouldn't believe if he doesn't follow the by-laws.

Your by-laws can say just about anything you want them to say. It's just you have to follow those by-laws or risk the 501(c) protection.

i already put that "unless it is in the by-laws of the church" in another post before that

[Rhoni]

the church stays UPCI or leaves without having a church vote???


If the founding PASTOR is not the present Pastor then he should have no say whatsoever. It is God's church and he will be rewarded for what he did as Pastor during the time he served.

As far as leaving the UPCI...the church should vote and the majority rule.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Brother Price]

Forgive me, but I thought the Church was Christ's, and we are ALL apart of it. Since when does organizational matters concern who we are of? I mean, we are of Christ!

Nuff said!

[Joseph Miller]

Forgive me, but I thought the Church was Christ's, and we are ALL apart of it. Since when does organizational matters concern who we are of? I mean, we are of Christ!

Nuff said!


Bro. Price that is true, but at the same time, local assemblies are affiliated with organizations. We are discussing how they should leave that fellowship. Either way they are still part of THE CHURCH.

[Rhoni]

Forgive me, but I thought the Church was Christ's, and we are ALL apart of it. Since when does organizational matters concern who we are of? I mean, we are of Christ!

Nuff said!

Brother Price,

Your view is simplistic at best. The UPCI is enmeshed in church, families, ministries, ect. It is a very difficult decision when one leaves, and an even more difficult one to return.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Brother Price]

Well, whatever direction the Lord leads me, I am His. I'll just KISS (Keep It Simple Saints).

[Chosen]

I would not sit under a pastor I could not trust...

Sister Alvear the issue is not about trust, it is more an organizational and procedural issue, and in this current atmosphere one misstep can and will affect many souls.

Bro Price I wish it would be as simple as "kiss" but as almost everything man sticks his hands in he muddys up and then one has to be careful from there on.

[pelathais]

The fact remains, if the church is affiliated then to disaffiliate would require a vote of the members of the congregation in a business meeting to which the District Superintendant or his representative has been called.

No way around it. And if the District thought that the church was worth going after, then the disaffiliating pastor would risk the property by skirting the law. And it is "the law." Every 501(c) tax exempt corp must have by-laws and they must follow those by-laws. People are in jail right now because they tried to play games with the system.

For all practical purposes, any UPC church presently seeking to disaffiliate would probably have a slam dunk vote any ways. That's the climate in those churches and that's the way they want to go. So be it. And I'm sure almost every pastor knows enough that he will jump through whatever hoops he needs to in order to accomplish his goal.

For the few who might have a problem, well... I don't recommend rolling the dice. You've got everything to loose, maybe even your own soul.