* Critical News UPDATE on Tulsa*

[SecretWarrior]

A household name in the UPC was invited to come and speak at a Tulsa committee meeting about missions. They tried to recruit him the whole time he was there. Trying to get him in pics with them (which he refused).

Additional updates on the new organization:
- They are starting a full-fledged ORGANIZATION!

-They have leased a Church of Christ building that has a sanctuary seating 2500 and many offices.

-This will serve their as headquarters.

-They are presently hiring staff.

-Floyd Odom has moved there to serve as full-time administrator.

-they have $50,000 in the bank after all bills paid so far. This just from people sending money in to help with start up costs.

[Praxeas]

Assuming this is true...I find it odd that many of these men can disfellowship with an Org and other churches and Pastors over the TV issue yet enter into a business contract like this with a COC to lease their building

[Pastor G]

here we go I heard the same thing from very reputable sources

All of this buying and or leasing is pretty assuming you think? They all might find out what assume really means..

[PastorD]

I'm not sure, but this could cause a stir in Alex, La the next couple days.

[Weary Pilgrim]

I'm not sure, but this could cause a stir in Alex, La the next couple days.


And what does "Alex.La" have to do with this update ?

[Thoughts by T]

And what does "Alex.La" have to do with this update ?

Because of The Times is this week in Alexandria. I have heard the same thing as Secret Warrior about Tulsa. Location wise and building wise.

[Broken]

A household name in the UPC was invited to come and speak at a Tulsa committee meetinabout missions. They tried to recruit him the whole time he was there. Trying to get him in pics with them (which he refused).


- What was he doing there to start with as I can see it wasn't to promote Jesus thru missions it was more to see and tell- especially going and then repeating this. I am sure their hearts were broken he wouldn't get in pic's with them- I would be surprised if he didn't cash their honorarium or should I say I am sure he cashed the honorarium without hesitation!

Why go?

[Pastor G]

A household name in the UPC was invited to come and speak at a Tulsa committee meetinabout missions. They tried to recruit him the whole time he was there. Trying to get him in pics with them (which he refused).


- What was he doing there to start with as I can see it wasn't to promote Jesus thru missions it was more to see and tell- especially going and then repeating this. I am sure their hearts were broken he wouldn't get in pic's with them- I would be surprised if he didn't cash their honorarium or should I say I am sure he cashed the honorarium without hesitation!

Why go?

If someone is missions minded, they will go anywhere to anyone and promote the cause... Perhaps the ones who invited him had an extra agenda that he didn't go along with... This group has been using names without permission, I am sure they would use pictures without permission as well... For this guy to make sure he stayed out of them was a smart move..

Just because a lot of people on here didn't know this information before it was posted here doesn't mean it was a secret... So for someone to repeat it, whomever it was, is not a problem... I know of a lot of people who knew this info lonf before it was posted...

Do you know he got an honorarium?
Do you know this was secret information?

[Broken]

Do I know any of the last "2" questions is absolutely not any of my business however I do say if you are not of them why go? I do know more than u think or imagine that I know.

Missions- that would be a priority in my knowledge so you wouldn't be telling me anything new? I am sorry to say that it is not the fact you go wherever , whenever for missions-you as well as anyone else involved should and do know better than than!

Not being defensive or trying to be cruel just don't appreciate anyone being a part of something and talking out of the corners of one's mouth

[COOPER]

This is sad......."Many" Apostolics would rather split than keep peace with Gods people.

[Pastor G]

Do I know any of the last "2" questions is absolutely not any of my business however I do say if you are not of them why go? I do know more than u think or imagine that I know.

Missions- that would be a priority in my knowledge so you wouldn't be telling me anything new? I am sorry to say that it is not the fact you go wherever , whenever for missions-you as well as anyone else involved should and do know better than than!

Not being defensive or trying to be cruel just don't appreciate anyone being a part of something and talking out of the corners of one's mouth

The missons minded will go anywhere that believes the same salvational doctrine to promote it.. If someone is hell-bent on leaving I see no problem is going to help them with something that you a passionate about.. AFter all he was obviously invited and had not committed to join..

And I know who this is and happen to know they don't talk out of the corners of their mouth...

[Broken]

:ouch never realized these folks were so hell-bent on leaving...

[Steve Epley]

They already have some very strong missions minded men among them thus this seems a little??????????????????????????

I really doubt this thread?????

[Broken]

They already have some very strong missions minded men among them thus this seems a little??????????????????????????

I really doubt this thread?????

:nod

[rgcraig]

They already have some very strong missions minded men among them thus this seems a little??????????????????????????

I really doubt this thread?????

What part do you doubt?

[Steve Epley]

What part do you doubt?

ALL of it.:drama:drama

Headquarters building and the whole enchilada.

Firstly I am in communications with guys who are part of this group(of which I am not nor going to be) and they have said nothing of this.

[rgcraig]

ALL of it.:drama:drama

Headquarters building and the whole enchilada.

Firstly I am in communications with guys who are part of this group(of which I am not nor going to be) and they have said nothing of this.

Maybe they don't know or maybe they don't feel it's for them to tell if they do.

Doesn't mean it might not be happening.

[SecretWarrior]

ALL of it.:drama:drama

Headquarters building and the whole enchilada.

Firstly I am in communications with guys who are part of this group(of which I am not nor going to be) and they have said nothing of this.

The Secrecy of Leadership within this group runs deep...they rarely let folks in until they are ready....

This is nothing new....ask folks around them.... you'll get the same info...

[Sweet Pea]

:ouch never realized these folks were so hell-bent on leaving...


Not to fond of the adjective used to describe their leaving (my mother taught me that was cussin' :toofunny) - however, if they weren't determined to leave, why did they start making plans before Res 4 passed? And I'm pretty well convinced that this was a done deal in their minds long before Res 4 passed - that just gave them an out. (And for the record, I'm not convinced that Res 4 is such a great thing. Time will tell.)

There are many on that list that I deeply respect and admire - some of them, I question why they are leaving and wonder how it will affect their fellowship with some of us who don't leave. To me - that is the saddest thing about all of this. It is tearing up families and friendships that had been able to fellowship in the past - despite some difference of opinion regarding some standards.

[Raven]

Your mother was a wise woman, Sweet Pea! What did you say her initials were again? With all the developments and letters coming to light, I see some real wounds being formed in people I like and respect from both sides of the issue. The solidarity I have known from my childhood is being fractured and will take a miracle from God to restore. Sad! I like them all and see the positive and negatives from both sides. Being in the "middle" isn't comfortable on airplanes nor friends.
Raven

[Ron Turner]

Do I know any of the last "2" questions is absolutely not any of my business however I do say if you are not of them why go? I do know more than u think or imagine that I know.

Missions- that would be a priority in my knowledge so you wouldn't be telling me anything new? I am sorry to say that it is not the fact you go wherever , whenever for missions-you as well as anyone else involved should and do know better than than!

Not being defensive or trying to be cruel just don't appreciate anyone being a part of something and talking out of the corners of one's mouth

I'm sensing venom here.

[SoCaliUPC]

I have heard many of the same things from a visiting minister a couple of weeks ago.

[stmatthew]

This is sad......."Many" Apostolics would rather split than keep peace with Gods people.

and you stayed??

[PastorD]

ALL of it.:drama:drama

Headquarters building and the whole enchilada.

Firstly I am in communications with guys who are part of this group(of which I am not nor going to be) and they have said nothing of this.

Elder, will you let us know when you confirm it? :shhh

[LadyChocolate]

ALL of it.:drama:drama

Headquarters building and the whole enchilada.

Firstly I am in communications with guys who are part of this group(of which I am not nor going to be) and they have said nothing of this.

That's it! I have to have lunch.. You said enchilada and that is all I can think about now? Mi Casita here I come!!!!!!

off topic? I know, but Bro Epley brought it up!:toofunny

[rgcraig]

That's it! I have to have lunch.. You said enchilada and that is all I can think about now? Mi Casita here I come!!!!!!

off topic? I know, but Bro Epley brought it up!:toofunny

Well, thanks to your username I crave chocolate all the time!!!!!

Oh wait, I do that anyway.

[Mrs. LPW]

Well, thanks to your username I crave chocolate all the time!!!!!

Oh wait, I do that anyway.

Me too

[LadyChocolate]

Well, thanks to your username I crave chocolate all the time!!!!!

Oh wait, I do that anyway.

At least I took off the avatars of the chocolate truffles! maybe i'll put them back!!! :)

[Broken]

I'm sensing venom here.

I sense your sensing is off- I have absolutely no axe to grind or feelings towards anyone or anything.

Child of the king who absolutely detests statements made about brothers/sisters who happen to be doing exactly what they feel they must to please their Maker

[jrLA]

A household name in the UPC was invited to come and speak at a Tulsa committee meeting about missions. They tried to recruit him the whole time he was there. Trying to get him in pics with them (which he refused).

Additional updates on the new organization:
- They are starting a full-fledged ORGANIZATION!

-They have leased a Church of Christ building that has a sanctuary seating 2500 and many offices.

-This will serve their as headquarters.

-They are presently hiring staff.

-Floyd Odom has moved there to serve as full-time administrator.

-they have $50,000 in the bank after all bills paid so far. This just from people sending money in to help with start up costs.


What if their assumption is wrong and they are a little too "Proactive" in their haste to get things going. This just seems so presumptious, doing this before the Tulsa Meeting even happens!

:drama

[Steve Epley]

Again call me Doubting Steve.

[stmatthew]

What if their assumption is wrong and they are a little too "Proactive" in their haste to get things going. This just seems so presumptious, doing this before the Tulsa Meeting even happens!

:drama

What if they didn't get a big enough building??

I would say that they probably have a general knowledge of how many will be signing up.

[nwlife]

What if Closet liberals join and then vote to take the group into a new direction? LOL!

[TrmptPraise]

What if they didn't get a big enough building??

I would say that they probably have a general knowledge of how many will be signing up.

Maybe they at least have an idea of how many are coming as opposed to signing up

[pelathais]

Again call me Doubting Steve.
Okay... you're "Doubting Steve."

[Praxeas]

Okay... you're "Doubting Steve."
I second that. You're Doubting Steve.. :drama

[BroBallard]

Additional updates on the new organization:
- They are starting a full-fledged ORGANIZATION!

-They have leased a Church of Christ building that has a sanctuary seating 2500 and many offices.

-This will serve their as headquarters.

-They are presently hiring staff.

-Floyd Odom has moved there to serve as full-time administrator.

-they have $50,000 in the bank after all bills paid so far. This just from people sending money in to help with start up costs.

Also did they mention to you that each executive will have their own brand new Black Lincoln Town car paid for by the membership fees? Of course they don't get to keep the cars once they are off the Executive Committee they then hand the keys over to the next up-coming Exec. And did you also hear that due to the location of headquarters being established in the mid-west that it was cheaper to purchase a learjet for transportation instead of having to pay for all the airline tickets. No joke!

Another item is the Starbucks that will be installed in the vestibule of the new headquartes, complete with a rotating shift of 8 full-time baristas (all the free coffee and espresso's you want to drink)! In the back of headquarters is a fitness center complete with free weights and cardio equipiment and 2 raquetball courts! Now their talkin'!

Something else you probably didn't hear about are the 7 Townhomes that are being purchased for each Exec on the board to stay in while they are in town. They will rotate these as they do the Licoln Town Cars.

There are a few more items but I don't want to overload the senses around here just yet.

It's something to consider I encourage you to sign up!

[Thinking]

If I were of the relationship with some of these men as Brother Steve Epley is, I would go right now to the telephone and ask if these things are true. Seems simply to confirm or deny.

[Steve Epley]

Also did they mention to you that each executive will have their own brand new Black Lincoln Town car paid for by the membership fees? Of course they don't get to keep the cars once they are off the Executive Committee they then hand the keys over to the next up-coming Exec. And did you also hear that due to the location of headquarters being established in the mid-west that it was cheaper to purchase a learjet for transportation instead of having to pay for all the airline tickets. No joke!

Another item is the Starbucks that will be installed in the vestibule of the new headquartes, complete with a rotating shift of 8 full-time baristas (all the free coffee and espresso's you want to drink)! In the back of headquarters is a fitness center complete with free weights and cardio equipiment and 2 raquetball courts! Now their talkin'!

Something else you probably didn't hear about are the 7 Townhomes that are being purchased for each Exec on the board to stay in while they are in town. They will rotate these as they do the Licoln Town Cars.

There are a few more items but I don't want to overload the senses around here just yet.

It's something to consider I encourage you to sign up!

That does it I am joining.:drama:happydance

[Hoovie]

I second that. You're Doubting Steve.. :drama

All in favor say "I" . Opposed the same.


Disclaimer: "Doubting Steve" should not be confused with "Stephen the faithful one Hoover".

[Sweet Pea]

Your mother was a wise woman, Sweet Pea! What did you say her initials were again? With all the developments and letters coming to light, I see some real wounds being formed in people I like and respect from both sides of the issue. The solidarity I have known from my childhood is being fractured and will take a miracle from God to restore. Sad! I like them all and see the positive and negatives from both sides. Being in the "middle" isn't comfortable on airplanes nor friends.
Raven

:shhh:shhh:shhh :toofunny

Raven, you are a sly one. And yes, I think she was pretty wise.

Truer words were never spoken about being in the middle!

[Ron Turner]

A close relative of one of the "councilmen" tells me that folks are in Tulsa right now leasing buildings and property.

I heard this personally.

[Wink]

I guess this means that the Apostolic Hospital wont get built

[Thoughts by T]

I think the WPF has updated its website. They have added more to points of interest. Am I wrong on this? Have they updated it and I just didnt notice?

Well if I am right, they have added several new links on where do my funds go, do you have missionaries through WPF etc....check it out.

[Hoovie]

Assuming this is true...I find it odd that many of these men can disfellowship with an Org and other churches and Pastors over the TV issue yet enter into a business contract like this with a COC to lease their building

BINGO!

[seguidordejesus]

Assuming this is true...I find it odd that many of these men can disfellowship with an Org and other churches and Pastors over the TV issue yet enter into a business contract like this with a COC to lease their building

The two have nothing to do with each other. One's a "spiritual" contract, if you want to call it that, and the other is pure business.

[TrmptPraise]

I think the WPF has updated its website. They have added more to points of interest. Am I wrong on this? Have they updated it and I just didnt notice?

Well if I am right, they have added several new links on where do my funds go, do you have missionaries through WPF etc....check it out.

Your right, T. I believe that happened over the weekend. I was a little bewildered by the one word answers and especially the "'Find and Facilitate"--Come and see answer.

[seguidordejesus]

Your right, T. I believe that happened over the weekend. I was a little bewildered by the one word answers and especially the "'Find and Facilitate"--Come and see answer.

Makes you wonder if they even know what facilitate means LOL

Kinda smart-aleck in my opinion.

[TrmptPraise]

Makes you wonder if they even know what facilitate means LOL

Kinda smart-aleck in my opinion.

I really am not sure of their intent. The one that got me was in regards to giving to missionaries that belong to other organizations. Why would you need to give through WPF if the missionary already has an affiliation with an organization through whom you could give?

[seguidordejesus]

I really am not sure of their intent. The one that got me was in regards to giving to missionaries that belong to other organizations. Why would you need to give through WPF if the missionary already has an affiliation with an organization through whom you could give?

To avoid the administration fee (10-15%?) that the UPC takes out.

[Cindy]

All in favor say "I" . Opposed the same.


Disclaimer: "Doubting Steve" should not be confused with "Stephen the faithful one Hoover".

It's all in the fine print Steve. I like that one. :happydance

[Hoovie]

It's all in the fine print Steve. I like that one. :happydance

From my lofty perch things are always crystal clear.

this post should not be understood as a confirmation nor denial of the veracity or importance of said fine print

[RevBuddy]

So, you're telling me, they would give through WPF, then WPF would give to UPC, then UPC would take the admin fee, then the remaining funds would go to the missionary?????!!!????

[stmatthew]

So, you're telling me, they would give through WPF, then WPF would give to UPC, then UPC would take the admin fee, then the remaining funds would go to the missionary?????!!!????

I believe that they will be sending to their own missionaries, and not those that are not with their group. So UPC licensed missionaries will not be supported by the WPF.

[stmatthew]

I believe that they will be sending to their own missionaries, and not those that are not with their group. So UPC licensed missionaries will not be supported by the WPF.

oops! I am wrong. I guess they will send to any missionary that you designate the funds to go to. I wonder if I can send to Billy Graham through them?? :toofunny

[Discerner]

To avoid the administration fee (10-15%?) that the UPC takes out.


If they ever actually grow large enough (which I doubt) they will find that there are administrative costs associated with these types of things. However, with dues at $60/month, which is almost double upci, maybe that is how they are offsetting some of these things.

I always get amazed at the gripes for admin fees, usually its someone with no idea of what it takes to manage these large amounts of funds and people.

Anyway, I hope they succeed. The UPCI is better off now!

[Broken]

If they ever actually grow large enough (which I doubt) they will find that there are administrative costs associated with these types of things. However, with dues at $60/month, which is almost double upci, maybe that is how they are offsetting some of these things.

I always get amazed at the gripes for admin fees, usually its someone with no idea of what it takes to manage these large amounts of funds and people.

Anyway, I hope they succeed. The UPCI is better off now!


I have to disagree, the UPCI is not better off now , they have lost very precious men and those who brethren hold close to their heart. Reaching out to men is the answer and don't believe there are many out there that feel the same way as the above statement.

What will we do when we all get to heaven - say, I wished you hadn't made it- don't think so.

They are precious people just like the UPCI

I have no axe to grind with UPCI or the new organization/association as all I can say we are brethren, let's reach out , love each other and win the lost

[Mr. Steinway]

I have to disagree, the UPCI is not better off now , they have lost very precious men and those who brethren hold close to their heart. Reaching out to men is the answer and don't believe there are many out there that feel the same way as the above statement.

What will we do when we all get to heaven - say, I wished you hadn't made it- don't think so.

They are precious people just like the UPCI

I have no axe to grind with UPCI or the new organization/association as all I can say we are brethren, let's reach out , love each other and win the lost

I understand what you're saying, but it's easier said than done.

Imagine 8-10 families leaving your church to start a new Apostolic church in the same town without your blessing. These families left because they disagreed with a few of your rules. Would your initial response be to reach out, love them, and bid those precious people God's speed?

[philjones]

I understand what you're saying, but it's easier said than done.

Imagine 8-10 families leaving your church to start a new Apostolic church in the same town without your blessing. These families left because they disagreed with a few of your rules. Would your initial response be to reach out, love them, and bid those precious people God's speed?

That is how my dad handled it and how he taught me it should be handled. He even helped dig the foundation for the new pastor's church and provided any assistance he could. His view... simple... if God is in it I don't want to fight it and if God is not in it it won't prosper. It didn't prosper and the folks were welcomed home with open arms by a man how never offended them by his ignorance.

[Wink]

just a question?

Will the WPF order literature from the UPC or do they already have their own publishing in place also?
If they do order from PPH will this be considering supporting the UPC and in essence TV advertising?

[Felicity]

I wouldn't support the Tulsa meeting with my attendance - no way. :)

[Discerner]

who in their right mind would? I know of a few I hope attend!:happydance

[Mr. Steinway]

That is how my dad handled it and how he taught me it should be handled. He even helped dig the foundation for the new pastor's church and provided any assistance he could. His view... simple... if God is in it I don't want to fight it and if God is not in it it won't prosper. It didn't prosper and the folks were welcomed home with open arms by a man how never offended them by his ignorance.

Your father was a wise man! :thumbsup

I think that most would react differently than your father, especially if the new "group" was actively recruiting other members of the original church!

[philjones]

Your father was a wise man! :thumbsup

I think that most would react differently than your father, especially if the new "group" was actively recruiting other members of the original church!

Thanks, PM... I agree! :D

I could never understand how he kept the right spirit and attitude. As to the pull of others from his church... he always felt that if someone could entice them away then he must not be fulfilling his call as well as he should so he just refocused his dedication to his call and his church and loved those that left.

He also made it clear to the saints of God who attended the church he pastored that if they couldn't be saved in the church he pastored or under his ministry that he would gladly write them a letter of transfer and accompany them to other churches to help them find a church where they thought they could be saved. After all, he taught that being saved was what this "church" business was all about! :)

I miss my dad!

[Felicity]

who in their right mind would? I know of a few I hope attend!:happydanceWell, we have to leave room for personal opinion and choice. I'll throw no stones at those who attend out of curiosity, the opportunity to hear (I'm sure) some great preaching and enjoy some great fellowship. And there are those who will go because of current discontent or unhappiness with their present situation perhaps.

We're not all on the same page or in the same situations or mindsets. So we have to be careful how we judge because with what judgment we mete, it will be meted back to us.

But based on what I've heard and read, I wouldn't attend. No. :)

[Wink]

what a great epitome of a christian man and father. I have never pastored but have been in the ministry for 18 years and have always felt that is how i would want to be if i was ever a pastor.
He had the windmill revelation!

Put up a windmill the wind turns it
put up another windmill in the same area the same wind turns it as well

[Falla39]

That is how my dad handled it and how he taught me it should be handled. He even helped dig the foundation for the new pastor's church and provided any assistance he could. His view... simple... if God is in it I don't want to fight it and if God is not in it it won't prosper. It didn't prosper and the folks were welcomed home with open arms by a man how never offended them by his ignorance.

Bro. Phil Jones,

You rarely see this brand of wisdom in our day and time. And it would

take the love and grace of Almighty God to act upon this kind. But

it would be beautiful to behold. "Where IS the wise? I Cor.1:20 (in part)

Blessings,

Falla39

[Raven]

Thanks, PM... I agree! :D

I could never understand how he kept the right spirit and attitude. As to the pull of others from his church... he always felt that if someone could entice them away then he must not be fulfilling his call as well as he should so he just refocused his dedication to his call and his church and loved those that left.

He also made it clear to the saints of God who attended the church he pastored that if they couldn't be saved in the church he pastored or under his ministry that he would gladly write them a letter of transfer and accompany them to other churches to help them find a church where they thought they could be saved. After all, he taught that being saved was what this "church" business was all about! :)

I miss my dad!
Phil
Your Dad sounds like a true shepherd. Too bad there isn't more like him today!
I'm sure you do miss him.
Raven

[philjones]

Thanks for all the kind words. I was blessed with a wonderful dad!

Seeing him again is another reason of my hope! :)

[Rev]

Thanks, PM... I agree! :D

I could never understand how he kept the right spirit and attitude. As to the pull of others from his church... he always felt that if someone could entice them away then he must not be fulfilling his call as well as he should so he just refocused his dedication to his call and his church and loved those that left.

He also made it clear to the saints of God who attended the church he pastored that if they couldn't be saved in the church he pastored or under his ministry that he would gladly write them a letter of transfer and accompany them to other churches to help them find a church where they thought they could be saved. After all, he taught that being saved was what this "church" business was all about! :)

I miss my dad!

Do you know what happened to the guy that was having church in his machine shop south of town?

[philjones]

Do you know what happened to the guy that was having church in his machine shop south of town?

If you are talking about who I am thinking of, he is now the ALJC DS in Oklahoma and pastor's in the Tulsa area. He was assisting Dad when Dad resigned to accept the pastorate in Longville, LA. The split there happened after David and Sherri were elected.

[Rev]

If you are talking about who I am thinking of, he is now the ALJC DS in Oklahoma and pastor's in the Tulsa area. He was assisting Dad when Dad resigned to accept the pastorate in Longville, LA. The split there happened after David and Sherri were elected.

Yep that's the one. I heard rumors about him but never knew if they were true. Is that church that split still going on?

[philjones]

Yep that's the one. I heard rumors about him but never knew if they were true. Is that church that split still going on?

It still exists. They have had a hard time keeping a pastor and are currently pastored by an interim pastor. I think the church is now called Grace Chapel and it is located on south 81 towards Comanche.

Many of those who left with the split encountered an ethical pastor who, after finding out he had accepted a split, shepherded them back into the church they came out of. That ethical pastor is also a poster on this forum and a dear friend of mine. :)

[Rev]

It still exists. They have had a hard time keeping a pastor and are currently pastored by an interim pastor. I think the church is now called Grace Chapel and it is located on south 81 towards Comanche.

Many of those who left with the split encountered an ethical pastor who, after finding out he had accepted a split, shepherded them back into the church they came out of. That ethical pastor is also a poster on this forum and a dear friend of mine. :)

Would I know him?

[pelathais]

It still exists. They have had a hard time keeping a pastor and are currently pastored by an interim pastor. I think the church is now called Grace Chapel and it is located on south 81 towards Comanche.

Many of those who left with the split encountered an ethical pastor who, after finding out he had accepted a split, shepherded them back into the church they came out of. That ethical pastor is also a poster on this forum and a dear friend of mine. :)
I wouldn't say "ethical Pastor..." I'd say something more like "phenomenal servant of God and shepherd of His people..." for acting in that fashion; whoever he is. :thumbsup

[philjones]

Would I know him?

Probably. :D

He is a Texan and is now pastoring in Texas. He did spend some time in Northern Oklahoma as well.

Don't you love a mystery? :D

[philjones]

I wouldn't say "ethical Pastor..." I'd say something more like "phenomenal servant of God and shepherd of His people..." for acting in that fashion; whoever he is. :thumbsup

I agree with you. I was being modest on his behalf. This is truly a man with a heart for the Kingdom and a heart for people! :)

[Rev]

Probably. :D

He is a Texan and is now pastoring in Texas. He did spend some time in Northern Oklahoma as well.

Don't you love a mystery? :D

Since I've thought about it, I don't think we knew the guy that took Han's place.

[Blubayou]

Br. Phil- You are so blessed to have a father and a pastor with such a wonderful spirit. " How beautiful are the feet..."

[philjones]

Since I've thought about it, I don't think we knew the guy that took Han's place.

PM incoming...

[philjones]

Br. Phil- You are so blessed to have a father and a pastor with such a wonderful spirit. " How beautiful are the feet..."

Thank you, Blubayou! I agree but then I am a bit biased. :)

[Cindy]

Probably. :D

He is a Texan and is now pastoring in Texas. He did spend some time in Northern Oklahoma as well.

Don't you love a mystery? :D

hmmmmmm uh huh I see. :shhh

[Cindy]

I think I would have liked to have known your Dad Bro. Phil.

[OP_Carl]

Thanks, PM... I agree! :D

I could never understand how he kept the right spirit and attitude. As to the pull of others from his church... he always felt that if someone could entice them away then he must not be fulfilling his call as well as he should so he just refocused his dedication to his call and his church and loved those that left.

He also made it clear to the saints of God who attended the church he pastored that if they couldn't be saved in the church he pastored or under his ministry that he would gladly write them a letter of transfer and accompany them to other churches to help them find a church where they thought they could be saved. After all, he taught that being saved was what this "church" business was all about! :)

I miss my dad!

As well you should miss a man like that. This testimony is enough to make me wonder if folks are still getting the same Holy Ghost that they got back then!

What a great man, and what a blessing to grow up with that heritage and example.

[tv1a]

It's hard to reach out to the people who run off and have no desire to work together. They don't want a reconciliation.

My father in law had a tree that looked beautiful, but it was dying. He had to hire a tree service to trim the limbs so the tree would survive. Some of the limbs that looked like nothing was wrong had to be trimmed. When they were cut, one could see if those limbs were left on the tree, it would have killed the tree.

The UPCI tree may have gotten a trim, but it looks like some of the tree killing limbs may be pruned.

I have to disagree, the UPCI is not better off now , they have lost very precious men and those who brethren hold close to their heart. Reaching out to men is the answer and don't believe there are many out there that feel the same way as the above statement.

What will we do when we all get to heaven - say, I wished you hadn't made it- don't think so.

They are precious people just like the UPCI

I have no axe to grind with UPCI or the new organization/association as all I can say we are brethren, let's reach out , love each other and win the lost

[Broken]

What would Jesus do?

[Ron Turner]

That is how my dad handled it and how he taught me it should be handled. He even helped dig the foundation for the new pastor's church and provided any assistance he could. His view... simple... if God is in it I don't want to fight it and if God is not in it it won't prosper. It didn't prosper and the folks were welcomed home with open arms by a man how never offended them by his ignorance.

Wisdom.

[Consapostolic1]

I've seen it mentioned many times on this forum that a lot of people think there won't be many pastors/preachers at this meeting, but I think there might be quit a few that attend. You have to take into consideration the many pastors/preachers from the upc that have made up their minds to join, the upc p/p that are considering, the upc p/p that are going just to be nosy and also many, many of the independent churches that have wanted to be apart of a group they could fit into.

[Fab]

I've seen it mentioned many times on this forum that a lot of people think there won't be many pastors/preachers at this meeting, but I think there might be quit a few that attend. You have to take into consideration the many pastors/preachers from the upc that have made up their minds to join, the upc p/p that are considering, the upc p/p that are going just to be nosy and also many, many of the independent churches that have wanted to be apart of a group they could fit into.

If the independents wanted a group, there are already enough of them out there, surely they would have done found one.

[stmatthew]

Look for most independants to stay independant.

Look for about 1/3 (or more) of those that leave the UPCI over the "issue" to go independant.

Look for maybe 2/3 (or less) of the leaving UPCI men to join the Tulsa group.


These are my predictions. :)

[ChurchMouse]

Look for most independants to stay independant.

Look for about 1/3 (or more) of those that leave the UPCI over the "issue" to go independant.

Look for maybe 2/3 (or less) of the leaving UPCI men to join the Tulsa group.


These are my predictions. :)

"Gone Independent Here"

[Fab]

Look for most independants to stay independant.

Look for about 1/3 (or more) of those that leave the UPCI over the "issue" to go independant.

Look for maybe 2/3 (or less) of the leaving UPCI men to join the Tulsa group.


I assume you mean formally independent. Most of those in the UPC that you speak of have had an independent spirit for years.

[Whole Hearted]

Look for most independants to stay independant.

Look for about 1/3 (or more) of those that leave the UPCI over the "issue" to go independant.

Look for maybe 2/3 (or less) of the leaving UPCI men to join the Tulsa group.


I assume you mean formally independent. Most of those in the UPC that you speak of have had an independent spirit for years.


True

I am an ind. UPC preacher.

[Consapostolic1]

The church I attend is independent and as far as I know has been independent since it was started about over 50? years ago. I do know that my pastor plans to attend the Tulsa meeting and hopefully join this group.

[Consapostolic1]

If our church joins this group I imagine that the churches that consider my pastor their elder will more than likely join the group as well.

[Thinking]

The church I attend is independent and as far as I know has been independent since it was started about over 50? years ago. I do know that my pastor plans to attend the Tulsa meeting and hopefully join this group.

After being independent for many years, and, through the years, given the existence of many oneness Pentecostal churches, what is it about this particular group that has caused your pastor to say he will more than likely join?

[The Dean]

I still say that we stand to lose up to 500 or so. I'm not suggesting that all of those will 'drop' the UPC but will simply pull out of UPC programs and fellowship those more aligned with their particular beliefs.

Overall, I think you'll see 350 to 400 drop their license. That may be a high estimate. But, as I said before, there will be many more who align themselves with the Tulsa group who will stay with the UPC and find fellowship with the Tulsa group.

[Thinking]

But, as I said before, there will be many more who align themselves with the Tulsa group who will stay with the UPC and find fellowship with the Tulsa group.

Why would they do that--in your opinion?

[stmatthew]

I still say that we stand to lose up to 500 or so. I'm not suggesting that all of those will 'drop' the UPC but will simply pull out of UPC programs and fellowship those more aligned with their particular beliefs.

Overall, I think you'll see 350 to 400 drop their license. That may be a high estimate. But, as I said before, there will be many more who align themselves with the Tulsa group who will stay with the UPC and find fellowship with the Tulsa group.

From what I am hearing, the UPC is not going to allow their licensed folks to align with the Tulsa group. I hear there are already some threats from DS's over some wanting to go to Tulsa just to windowshop the meeting.

[Consapostolic1]

After being independent for many years, and, through the years, given the existence of many oneness Pentecostal churches, what is it about this particular group that has caused your pastor to say he will more than likely join?

My pastor came from the upc but since the church he took over wasn't upc he had to turned his license in. Many of the people that are associated with this group are my pastors close friends. Besides they'll probably have more things to get members of the church more active such as retreats, a general conference, youth conventions, etc.

[KarenJo]

My pastor came from the upc but since the church he took over wasn't upc he had to turned his license in. Many of the people that are associated with this group are my pastors close friends. Besides they'll probably have more things to get members of the church more active such as retreats, a general conference, youth conventions, etc.

I know ministers who hold a lisc and their church may or may not follow the "standards"..the UPCI doesn't dictate at the church level...

[Whole Hearted]

From what I am hearing, the UPC is not going to allow their licensed folks to align with the Tulsa group. I hear there are already some threats from DS's over some wanting to go to Tulsa just to windowshop the meeting.

I heard just the opposite. A good friend was at BOTT and said that an official from headquarter said that if a lic. preacher took up a fellowship card (not lic.) that they would be dropped. Now that is just what I heard.

[Thinking]

My pastor came from the upc but since the church he took over wasn't upc he had to turned his license in. Many of the people that are associated with this group are my pastors close friends. Besides they'll probably have more things to get members of the church more active such as retreats, a general conference, youth conventions, etc.

I don't understand. What was wrong with your church that the pastor had to turn in his UPC license? The church a UPC minister pastors can be either affiliated or not affiliated.

Also, the UPCI has multitudes of rallies, conferences and retreats. As far as I know most of them are open to anyone.

It's puzzling that your church could not be associated with the UPC, but it seemingly can be with the WWAF. Help me understand.

[embonpoint]

I don't understand. What was wrong with your church that the pastor had to turn in his UPC license? The church a UPC minister pastors can be either affiliated or not affiliated.

Also, the UPCI has multitudes of rallies, conferences and retreats. As far as I know most of them are open to anyone.

It's puzzling that your church could not be associated with the UPC, but it seemingly can be with the WWAF. Help me understand.

It is not hard to understand if you know much about the UPC. Your first paragraph seems to imply that there must be something wrong with the church referenced as opposed to its being caught in the political processes of the UPCI. If this was your intent without knowing the church then shame on you.

Depending on your level of cynicism there are several reasons an individual may be required to drop their license with the UPCI in order to assume the pastorate of an independent church,i.e. one not currently listed in the UPCI directory. Most places I am familar with require an individual wishing to assume such a pastorate to meet the Board of the District the church is located in, just as you would if you were starting a new HM work.Without that approval you can not pastor that church and keep your license.

[Steadfast]

From what I am hearing, the UPC is not going to allow their licensed folks to align with the Tulsa group. I hear there are already some threats from DS's over some wanting to go to Tulsa just to windowshop the meeting.

Amazing. I've never heard anything of the sort. In fact, just the opposite from the officials in my world.

[Steadfast]

I heard just the opposite. A good friend was at BOTT and said that an official from headquarter said that if a lic. preacher took up a fellowship card (not lic.) that they would be dropped. Now that is just what I heard.

Again, I've heard just the opposite.

IF... and I do mean IF... they ever tried to do that it would backfire so quick that it was stun the UPC on a level MUCH greater than those who will presently be leaving.

I know a lot of men who don't feel any need to break away from the UPC but have a great respect for the men involved in the Tulsa meeting. If... and again I do mean IF... the UPC tries to make this a 'fellowship them and your history' situation they will end up losing EASILY three times the people they would if they just coexist in arenas of fellowship.

Right now I think it's an unfortunate reality that some genuinely have a conviction that they need to realign themselves with those who believe more like them. If they turn it into an Apostolic 'Civil War' the losses will be magnified many times over. On that you can mark my words.

[stmatthew]

From what I am hearing, the UPC is not going to allow their licensed folks to align with the Tulsa group. I hear there are already some threats from DS's over some wanting to go to Tulsa just to windowshop the meeting.

I heard just the opposite. A good friend was at BOTT and said that an official from headquarter said that if a lic. preacher took up a fellowship card (not lic.) that they would be dropped. Now that is just what I heard.

If you read what I wrote, what I wrote agree's with what you wrote.

[CC1]

I know ministers who hold a lisc and their church may or may not follow the "standards"..the UPCI doesn't dictate at the church level...

Depends on what district you are in!

[Thinking]

It is not hard to understand if you know much about the UPC. Your first paragraph seems to imply that there must be something wrong with the church referenced as opposed to its being caught in the political processes of the UPCI. If this was your intent without knowing the church then shame on you.

Please excuse me. I am not trying to cause shame--merely trying to understand this post. It's really none of my business, I suppose. Again, I'm quite sorry for the offense.

[Jekyll]

Why does everyone assume that there will be licenses issued by the Tulsa fellowship?

[deadeye]

Steadfast...just the other day I sat and read 2 e-mails that had been sent to one of the "49". This man was also a District official. His Dis. Super told him not to go to Tulsa and if he did he would have to resign, and if he didn't that the DS would force him too resign. Saw this with my own 2 peepers.
Trust me...if you join up with the WPC sooner or later the UPC will be knocking at your door.

[Steadfast]

Steadfast...just the other day I sat and read 2 e-mails that had been sent to one of the "49". This man was also a District official. His Dis. Super told him not to go to Tulsa and if he did he would have to resign, and if he didn't that the DS would force him too resign. Saw this with my own 2 peepers.
Trust me...if you join up with the WPC sooner or later the UPC will be knocking at your door.

Then it will eventually become a much bigger thing than I think the UPC is going to want to encounter right now. I travel quite a bit and preach in multiple districts every month but, honestly, I've not heard anything of the sort.

But, then again, I'm not too important evidently because nobody has tried to recruit me to join anything... and I think now that I've talked to 4 of the 6 getting most of the attention.

Also just preached at the Assistant General Superintendent's Church a few weeks ago and heard nothing of the sort.

Talked to my Superintendent a few weeks ago and he wondered if I was going... said it would be an interesting meeting! No mention of 'don't go' at all.

Oddly enough, I'm also preaching for one of the coordinators of this Tulsa deal and then less than a month later preaching for his District Superintendent. Again, nothing remotely said in all our conversations on either side.

Who knows... maybe they all (on both sides) know my premiere goal in life is just being saved. Outside of that they can do about whatever they want.

:shhh

[Consapostolic1]

I don't understand. What was wrong with your church that the pastor had to turn in his UPC license? The church a UPC minister pastors can be either affiliated or not affiliated.

Also, the UPCI has multitudes of rallies, conferences and retreats. As far as I know most of them are open to anyone.

It's puzzling that your church could not be associated with the UPC, but it seemingly can be with the WWAF. Help me understand.

It might've been the distance between our church and the upc church that was built down the street. I'm not exactly sure. If we had of joined the upc we would've fit more into the conservative crew.

[CC1]

Why does everyone assume that there will be licenses issued by the Tulsa fellowship?

It seems very logical as in all or most states there are many legal reasons a pastor needs to be liensed.

Why would they not license?

[crakjak]

No difference whatsoever, has to the right or wrong of it. One should be consistent to practice what one preaches, methinks.

John Grisham's books are full of profanity and beer guzzling, and other immoral behavior.

[embonpoint]

If he is your pastor, you should go ask him.

[Bowas]

Why has he not announced it to the church? How is it you are aware of this and the church at large is not?
If it is a UPCI church, I think he is required to let the church know. I may be wrong, but it appears to be somewhat deceptive not to let the church know of his change.

[Joseph Miller]

If he is your pastor, you should go ask him.


I agree. If you are a member of his church then go and ask him.

[CC1]

If you are a life long member of a conservative UPC church then surely you are not surprised consistent logic is not being applied when it comes to standards!!!!???? Never has been and apparently never will.

[Theophil]

If you are a life long member of a conservative UPC church then surely you are not surprised consistent logic is not being applied when it comes to standards!!!!???? Never has been and apparently never will.

Exactly right!
It is also apparent that it takes some longer than others to realize this,

[AnotherTrave]

Steadfast...just the other day I sat and read 2 e-mails that had been sent to one of the "49". This man was also a District official. His Dis. Super told him not to go to Tulsa and if he did he would have to resign, and if he didn't that the DS would force him too resign. Saw this with my own 2 peepers.
Trust me...if you join up with the WPC sooner or later the UPC will be knocking at your door.

Just for going to Tulsa? That's a little high handed. Now it is unlawful to go to any meeting not set by the UPC?

[philjones]

Exactly right!
It is also apparent that it takes some longer than others to realize this,

I am real sure that both your Christian walk and that of CC1 would stand up to the consistency test with nary an inconsistency rising to the surface.

Give me a break, both of you! You should be on SNL with that stand up routine! :D

And don't try to mess with me cause I am... :bigweightlift: while you and CC1 are... :exercise:

[Praxeas]

Hey guys. I deleted that persons quote from your posts due to his having second thoughts on posting it and being a new user I decided to give him a break. However I thought it was still a good question so I am going to reword it here

What is the difference between reading books that many movies are based on and watching the movies themselves? Would it seem a double standard for someone to read those books yet preach against TV and Movies?

[Hoovie]

Is anyone here enroute to Tulsa?

[chseeads]

Mr. Wholehearted is.

[Steve Epley]

I have heard from several men who got in there yesterday they said Elder Craft was already there looking very happy. There are around 70 guys from CAF alone going there.

[Ferd]

I have heard from several men who got in there yesterday they ssaid Elder Craft was already there looking very happy. There are around 70 guys from CAF alone going there.

Brother Epley can you find out how many are at the meeting?

[CC1]

I have heard from several men who got in there yesterday they said Elder Craft was already there looking very happy. There are around 70 guys from CAF alone going there.

Elder Epley,

Can you get one or two of those libs at CAF who have internet and a laptop to post us some updates? Surely they can lower themselves to post among the unwashed massess for this momentous event!:stretch: