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View Full Version : Anyone Here Believe In Annihilation Of The Wicked?


Michael The Disciple
03-10-2007, 03:43 PM
By that I mean that after being cast into Hell for however long God choses the wicked will cease to exist. Dont know if I am up for a debate on it right now but would like to know if anyone else believes in it.

RevDWW
03-10-2007, 03:46 PM
As in the wicked are consummed in the fire of hell without suffering for eternity?

IF that's what you're asking I can't see that in scripture.

crakjak
03-10-2007, 03:58 PM
By that I mean that after being cast into Hell for however long God choses the wicked will cease to exist. Dont know if I am up for a debate on it right now but would like to know if anyone else believes in it.

After whatever is a "just recompense of reward" the "fire" will burn everything that is unlike God, after this punishment of the wicked, the wicked will then willing accept and glorify God. This will finally bring about the ultimate purpose for Jesus' death, all will then be reconciled to God and to each other.

Surely, God will not fail in all He purposed to do, "seek and save the lost". Neither the so called "freewill of man" nor the wimpy efforts of Satan will defeat the purpose of the Almighty.

"Many are the plans of man, but it is the purpose of God that shall prevail", The Psalms.

Michael The Disciple
03-10-2007, 04:21 PM
As in the wicked are consummed in the fire of hell without suffering for eternity?

IF that's what you're asking I can't see that in scripture.

As in this:

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

The soul being destroyed in Hell.

Exactly what YHWH said in the OT.

4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

Scott Hutchinson
03-10-2007, 07:45 PM
I think the term for what is being discussed here is conditional immortality.

HeavenlyOne
03-10-2007, 07:47 PM
Cast the wicked into hell?


Then we'd all be going there.

Sister Alvear
03-10-2007, 07:50 PM
I will say hell will last as long as heaven last...

Scott Hutchinson
03-10-2007, 07:53 PM
The question is if mankind lost immortality in the fall through original sin , is there immortality outside of being in Christ?

BoredOutOfMyMind
03-10-2007, 08:01 PM
I think the term for what is being discussed here is conditional immortality.

Conditional Immortality gives another false hope outside of applying the blood.

The teaching of Annihilation Of The Wicked teaches the Wicked are physically consumed in Hellfire.

Ron
03-10-2007, 08:02 PM
Hey I agree with it-when do we start to anihalate the wicked?:D
Do we start with terrorists?:drawguns

Really, I don't believe in it.
The Bible speaks of eternal Salvation, or eternal damnation.

Scott Hutchinson
03-10-2007, 08:03 PM
Conditional Immortality gives another false hope outside of applying the blood.

The teaching of Annihilation Of The Wicked teaches the Wicked are physically consumed in Hellfire.

My bad I thought they were one and the same.

Hoovie
03-10-2007, 08:09 PM
After whatever is a "just recompense of reward" the "fire" will burn everything that is unlike God, after this punishment of the wicked, the wicked will then willing accept and glorify God. This will finally bring about the ultimate purpose for Jesus' death, all will then be reconciled to God and to each other.

Surely, God will not fail in all He purposed to do, "seek and save the lost". Neither the so called "freewill of man" nor the wimpy efforts of Satan will defeat the purpose of the Almighty.

"Many are the plans of man, but it is the purpose of God that shall prevail", The Psalms.


This is also known as Universal Reconciliation, and is not the same as Annihilation of the wicked.

crakjak
03-10-2007, 11:09 PM
This is also known as Universal Reconciliation, and is not the same as Annihilation of the wicked.

Exactly! If the vast majority of God's creation is consumed or are eternally in "endless torture", it would be as if God's purpose has failed and Satan's purpose has succeeded. If a doctrine is inconsistent with the essense of God, then it cannot be true.

I believe more folks reject entering into the life available by Jesus' righteous act, because of the traditional teaching of God as a retributivist, than any other single thing. You may fear, live in awe of, and even try to obey, but hardly love such a god.

Michael The Disciple
03-10-2007, 11:38 PM
Exactly! If the vast majority of God's creation is consumed or are eternally in "endless torture", it would be as if God's purpose has failed and Satan's purpose has succeeded. If a doctrine is inconsistent with the essense of God, then it cannot be true.

I believe more folks reject entering into the life available by Jesus' righteous act, because of the traditional teaching of God as a retributivist, than any other single thing. You may fear, live in awe of, and even try to obey, but hardly love such a god.

You could not be more wrong. After this mere 6ooo years or so is done and all the wicked are destroyed millions of years will roll on and all people who are born from that time on will be righteous.

Looking BACK from that eternal age to our little sliver of time will show the huge huge majority of the creation of YHWH being faithful and not sinners.

crakjak
03-10-2007, 11:55 PM
You could not be more wrong. After this mere 6ooo years or so is done and all the wicked are destroyed millions of years will roll on and all people who are born from that time on will be righteous.

Looking BACK from that eternal age to our little sliver of time will show the huge huge majority of the creation of YHWH being faithful and not sinners.

Doesn't it make more sense that God will defeat Satan by "burning" up all the chaff and dross (sin), rather than burning up souls created by Himself? Will He not defeat His enemies by treating them same way He tells us to treat our enemies? By loving them and turning the into friends, by forgiving them as He told us to forgive even to "7X70" in one day? If a doctrine is in opposition to the essence of God it is necessarily false.

LOVE NEVER FAILS! Of course the traditional view and also annihilation teach that God's love, "the perfect" love, in fact DOES FAIL! And what is stronger:dunno than the perfect love of God? Well, the ALL MIGHTY "freewill" of men.:ranting NO WAY!!!!

Eliseus
03-10-2007, 11:57 PM
I firmly believe that the Bible is true - the wicked shall DIE, and "be no more".

Eternal life is a GIFT, and it is NOT given to the unbelieving, unrepentant, Christ-haters.

The death of the wicked in the lake of fire (which is the second death) is irreperable, unreversible, and there will be no appeal from that sentence.

The judgement of God against the wicked will be ETERNAL, age-lasting, and will never be changed.

In THIS life we have opportunity to repent from our sin and rebellion and cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. When this life is over, those who have spurned the offer of pardon will get exactly what they deserve - punishment for sin.

And the punishment for sin is DEATH.

The sinners who do not repent and who will not by faith be sanctified by the grace of God will NOT "live forever". They will be punished with "everlasting DESTRUCTION", they will PERISH, they will in fact be like wax that melteth... "thou shalt look for them, and shall not find them..." they shall melt away and "be no more".

Eliseus
03-11-2007, 12:00 AM
Doesn't it make more sense that God will defeat Satan by "burning" up all the chaff and dross (sin), rather than burning up souls created by Himself? Will He not defeat His enemies by treating them same way He tells us to treat our enemies? By loving them and turning the into friends, by forgiving them as He told us to forgive even to "7X70" in one day? If a doctrine is in opposition to the essence of God it is necessarily false.

LOVE NEVER FAILS! Of course the traditional view and also annihilation teach that God's love, "the perfect" love, in fact DOES FAIL! And what is stronger:dunno than the perfect love of God? Well, the ALL MIGHTY "freewill" of men.:ranting NO WAY!!!!

GOD HAS SPOKEN: "the soul that sinneth, it shall SURELY DIE."

JESUS DECLARED that God is to be feared, for He it is that is able to kill BOTH SOUL and BODY IN GEHENNA.

The doctrine of universalism is a FALSE DOCTRINE, and is contradicted by the PLAIN STATEMENTS OF SCRIPTURE.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE which teaches that ALL the wicked WILL be saved AFTER the FINAL judgement.

Eliseus
03-11-2007, 12:08 AM
Doesn't it make more sense that God will defeat Satan by "burning" up all the chaff and dross (sin), rather than burning up souls created by Himself?

God has already said the sinning soul that will not repent will DIE.

God WILL burn up the "chaff", and the Bible describes the wicked as CHAFF that shall be burnt with unquenchable fire, and blown off the scene by the wind of God's judgement. (see Psalm 1, for example...)

Will He not defeat His enemies by treating them same way He tells us to treat our enemies? By loving them and turning the into friends, by forgiving them as He told us to forgive even to "7X70" in one day?

Wrong. God will defeat His enemies by destroying them. He says so plainly over and over again in His Word. We are to forgive our brother when he comes to us and says "I repent", even if he does this 490 times in one day.

We cannot judge God's righteous judgement against sin and wickedness by our own standards. Ask the people of Sodom...

If a doctrine is in opposition to the essence of God it is necessarily false.

Yes, and thus your false doctrine of universalism is necessarily false, because it denies the justice of God, contradicts His own declarations on the very subject, makes a mockery of sin, and makes the cross of Jesus an unnecessary waste... since Christ died to give us eternal life - and since you believe everyone will live forever anyway...

LOVE NEVER FAILS! Of course the traditional view and also annihilation teach that God's love, "the perfect" love, in fact DOES FAIL! And what is stronger:dunno than the perfect love of God? Well, the ALL MIGHTY "freewill" of men.:ranting NO WAY!!!!

Nonsense. Your denial of free will is denied by your actions everyday, for you live life as if you had free will, and could not live life as if you did not, no matter how strenuously you object to it on a theoretical basis.

All those who deny free will are silly, and their own lives are a 24/7/365 refutation of their own nonsensical doctrine.

crakjak
03-11-2007, 12:14 AM
In THIS life we have opportunity to repent from our sin and rebellion and cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. When this life is over, those who have spurned the offer of pardon will get exactly what they deserve - punishment for sin.


We should all admit that ALL do not have opportunity in this life to hear and obey the gospel. This is simply stretching to cover erroneous doctrines.

I will say again, this view, annihilation, along with endless torment is inconsistent with the nature and character of our Heavenly Father. He will "punish" in curative "fires" for healing not annihilation. He tells us to "love" our enemies, do "good" to those who hurt you, forgive to 7X70 daily, will He do otherwise? I think not! His love will finally overcome all evil, that God may be "all in all". Love never fails! God's love even more so.

Walk and Talk
03-11-2007, 12:35 AM
I have heard that the teachings about hell (place where the unsaved person will go (not referencing the place the devil, Antichrist, false-prophet will go) being an "eternal" punishment are teachings derived from a mistranslation: a mistranslation based on doctrinal prejudice.

What I am pondering and what I need to study in this doctrine is that it teaches the original language(s) use a word showing punishment for only an "age" or "season" with defined boundaries/limits. The word(s) in question, used in other passages, clearly show a use limited to an age and not an eternity. (This is what I have heard, and not something I have had time to study out. Therefore, at this time it is not a doctrine I currently embrace.)

crakjak
03-11-2007, 12:46 AM
God has already said the sinning soul that will not repent will DIE.

God WILL burn up the "chaff", and the Bible describes the wicked as CHAFF that shall be burnt with unquenchable fire, and blown off the scene by the wind of God's judgement. (see Psalm 1, for example...)



Wrong. God will defeat His enemies by destroying them. He says so plainly over and over again in His Word. We are to forgive our brother when he comes to us and says "I repent", even if he does this 490 times in one day.

We cannot judge God's righteous judgement against sin and wickedness by our own standards. Ask the people of Sodom...


Yes, and thus your false doctrine of universalism is necessarily false, because it denies the justice of God, contradicts His own declarations on the very subject, makes a mockery of sin, and makes the cross of Jesus an unnecessary waste... since Christ died to give us eternal life - and since you believe everyone will live forever anyway...



Nonsense. Your denial of free will is denied by your actions everyday, for you live life as if you had free will, and could not live life as if you did not, no matter how strenuously you object to it on a theoretical basis.

All those who deny free will are silly, and their own lives are a 24/7/365 refutation of their own nonsensical doctrine.

God's severity is in every case an act of mercy and love, just like a human parent's actions are for the ultimate good of their children. God shows His mercy thru His love and his severity. His justice is not separate from His love and mercy, it is one and the same.

Your freewill is very narrowly defined within the boundaries that God set-up in making you who you are. Your freewill is restricted by all that makes you who you are, and who you are was decided by God. You are no more a free moral agent than you are a goose.

Your depiction of universalism is completely without basis in fact, it does absolutely NONE of what you accuse. I will ask Ezekial of Sodom, because he says Sodom will be restored. National judgment and earthly destruction does not describe Sodom's final end, or any other people's end.

God will eventually redeem what is His out of every nation, people and tribe, and that is the souls of men. What is burned is all the chaff and dross that has attached to them by living in a fallen world, that was set-up on purpose by God Himself for His own reasons and purpose. The wheat and the gold that comes out of the fire is His own creation, the souls of men.

You were born a sinner because of your father Adam (by NO fault of your own), you are reconciled to God because of righteous Jesus (by NO merit of your own). You can walk in the broadway wasting and perishing away, or you can enter in at the "strait gate" and reap all that has already been accomplished by the blood of Jesus. This is "good news" the traditional view is the "worst possible news".

Scott Hutchinson
03-11-2007, 05:32 AM
How does universalism deal with the word damnation? How does who embraces it inclusion explain it?

Ferd
03-11-2007, 06:46 AM
iamsohappy

Revelationist
03-11-2007, 07:14 AM
Why did Jesus give the promise of eternal life, if everyone already had eternal life, only, it was just a matter of where you was going to spend eternal life?

Jerry Moon

Sister Alvear
03-11-2007, 10:13 AM
Dan 12:1-3
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
KJV

Eliseus
03-11-2007, 10:41 AM
Why did Jesus give the promise of eternal life, if everyone already had eternal life, only, it was just a matter of where you was going to spend eternal life?

Jerry Moon

EXACTLY.

Sister Alvear
03-11-2007, 10:43 AM
and can you explain everlasting contempt?

Sister Alvear
03-11-2007, 10:51 AM
I am laying in bed with my laptop getting over surgery but I wanted to write what my Portuguese Bible says,
(Daniel 12:2) - E muitos dos que dormem no pó da terra ressuscitarão, uns para vida eterna, e outros para vergonha e desprezo eterno.
(Daniel 12:3) - Os que forem sábios, pois, resplandecerão como o fulgor do firmamento; e os que a muitos ensinam a justiça, como as estrelas sempre e eternamente.

it says eternal life or eternal scorn or shame....

Does eternal mean eternal?

Beard
03-11-2007, 12:25 PM
where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched....
amen Sister Alvear....

Michael The Disciple
03-11-2007, 02:38 PM
They will awake unto judgment. They will be cast into hell where they will eventually die. As the righteous enter eternity and begin the work of being Priests to the nations everything will be changed. Nations will be full of people who obey YHWH.

At times they will be made to go out and look upon what was once the burning Gehenna.

22: For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24

They shall be an abhoring to all flesh. They are held in contempt throughout eternity. What is it the people of the World look upon? THEIR CARCASSES. DEAD BODIES.

They are in eternal contempt because they TRANSGRESSED against YHWH. That does not mean they will be alive.

Revelationist
03-11-2007, 03:49 PM
and can you explain everlasting contempt?

OT:1860
dera'own (der-aw-one'); or dera'own (day-raw-one;); from an unused root (meaning to repulse); an object of aversion:

KJV-abhorring, contempt.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Repulsive... doesn't mean that they will live forever, but like Hitler, his memory lives on, and it's repulsive...

Jerry Moon

Revelationist
03-11-2007, 04:06 PM
where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched....
amen Sister Alvear....

NT:9999

insertedword {x}

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.


(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

Oh. my... well, anyways, a worm is not a soul. Skin worms will eat us when we die, so... they will never cease to eat our bodies when we die... and simply, the fires will never go out, but neither refer to the unsaved having eternal life.

Jerry Moon

crakjak
03-11-2007, 05:58 PM
Dan 12:1-3
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
KJV

Sorry, Sister, this is prophecy concerning 70 AD the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea, the wiping out of the Old Covenant.

"Everlasting" in these verses is speaking of national judgment of Israel not the consumation of all things. Many uses of the words eternal in scripture clearly speak of thing that will not and have not continue without end.

crakjak
03-11-2007, 11:44 PM
How does universalism deal with the word damnation? How does who embraces it inclusion explain it?

Bro. Scott, it could be said that the Jewish religion and the Jewish people have experienced damnation, even eternal damnation as in "age abiding damnation" ever since 70 AD. They have been in the "fire", but eventually "all Israel will be saved", after they are purged and refined, they will finally and willing embrace their true Messiah. This is how I would explain it.

crakjak
03-11-2007, 11:50 PM
and can you explain everlasting contempt?

Sure, "age abiding". Many uses of "everlasting" throughout scripture have all ready come to an end. The word seems to mean contempt that accomplishes its purpose, then comes to an end.

Do you ready believe those type verses mean the God and the saved will enjoy watching the wicked suffer throughout eternity??? Someone suggested this on this very thread.

Old Paths
03-11-2007, 11:52 PM
I have met some wicked folks that I thought needed annihilation.

Eliseus
03-12-2007, 12:10 AM
Is this universalism nonsense even worth refuting?

Eliseus
03-12-2007, 12:25 AM
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/ChallengeUnie.html

crakjak
03-12-2007, 10:01 AM
Is this universalism nonsense even worth refuting?

You along with the traditionalists stand on the position, that God is not able to or is unwilling to save all men. And you blaspheme God as a torturer and preserver of sin and evil in a "hellhole" forever.

Your position either denies that God is all knowing or that He knowingly created a situation in which billions of His creation would be tormented endlessly, and He would be the one to maintain the existence of this house of torture. Then you have the audacity to call him abba father? No wonder the masses reject this man made definition of God.

Paul clearly declares the ministry of reconciliation, and the eventual salvation of all men. Just as many as were condemned by Adam's sin will be saved by Jesus blood.

crakjak
03-12-2007, 10:06 AM
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/ChallengeUnie.html

This is the weakest of argument against the salvation of the world. Easily answered. I will do so as soon as I have time.

Eliseus
03-12-2007, 10:08 AM
You along with the traditionalists stand on the position, that God is not able to or is unwilling to save all men.


Here is where you error begins.

And you blaspheme God as a torturer and preserver of sin and evil in a "hellhole" forever.

Nonsense, the wicked will be destroyed, and there will be no more sin because there will be no more sinners. YOU however blaspheme God by making God to be a faithless and unjust judge. Suppose we had a judge that decided that al criminals regardless of crimes were to be released into society? We would demand he be hung from a tree.

Yet that is the "god" you promote here.

Your position either denies that God is all knowing or the He knowingly created a situation in which billions of His creation would be tormented endlessly, and He would be the one to maintain the existence of this house of torture.

Okay, since you cannot distinguish conditional immortality/annihilation from the immortal soul doctrine, there is no point in communicating with you. You aren't even reading what I have posted.

Then you have the audacity to call him abba father? No wonder the masses reject this man made definition of God.

The masses reject GOD'S REVELATION OF HIMSELF precisely because they are WICKED SINNERS WHO HATE GOD. And the Bible teaches that FEW will find life, and that the MAJORITY will be condemned and punished with everlasting destruction and damnation.

Paul clearly declares the ministry of reconciliation, and the eventual salvation of all men. Just as many as were condemned by Adam's sin will be saved by Jesus blood.

LIE. Paul DID NOT SAY THAT.

I challenge you to provide ONE SINGLE VERSE that says "all will be saved".

I further challenge you to find the verse that says "AS MANY as were condemend by Adam's sin will be saved by Jesus' blood."

And if you cannot do that, then I further challenge you to ADMIT YOU HAVE LIED ABOUT GOD'S WORD.

crakjak
03-12-2007, 10:21 AM
Here is where you error begins.



Nonsense, the wicked will be destroyed, and there will be no more sin because there will be no more sinners. YOU however blaspheme God by making God to be a faithless and unjust judge. Suppose we had a judge that decided that al criminals regardless of crimes were to be released into society? We would demand he be hung from a tree.
Yet that is the "god" you promote here.



Okay, since you cannot distinguish conditional immortality/annihilation from the immortal soul doctrine, there is no point in communicating with you. You aren't even reading what I have posted.



The masses reject GOD'S REVELATION OF HIMSELF precisely because they are WICKED SINNERS WHO HATE GOD. And the Bible teaches that FEW will find life, and that the MAJORITY will be condemned and punished with everlasting destruction and damnation.



LIE. Paul DID NOT SAY THAT.

I challenge you to provide ONE SINGLE VERSE that says "all will be saved".

I further challenge you to find the verse that says "AS MANY as were condemend by Adam's sin will be saved by Jesus' blood."

And if you cannot do that, then I further challenge you to ADMIT YOU HAVE LIED ABOUT GOD'S WORD.


I WILL ANSWER EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR ACCUSATIONS, WITHIN THE NEXT DAY OR TWO.


Concerning the bolded part of your post: SUPPOSE WE HAD A GOD THAT COULD rehabilitate every criminal then set them free. WHAT A NOVEL IDEA?

Eliseus
03-12-2007, 10:22 AM
I await your responses, Crakpo... er, Crakjak...

:)

crakjak
03-12-2007, 06:32 PM
Here is where you error begins.

Suppose we had a judge that decided that al criminals regardless of crimes were to be released into society? We would demand he be hung from a tree.

Suppose we had a God that could rehabilitate every sinners and set them free from Satan's bondage. Let's suppose He also loves these sinner and desires the best for them........hmmmm?


Okay, since you cannot distinguish conditional immortality/annihilation from the immortal soul doctrine, there is no point in communicating with you. You aren't even reading what I have posted.

Excuse me, Bro. I forgot that you don't believe in endless torment. Your position is much more merciful. It is certainly more merciful to burn someone completely up, than to torture forever. However, it still is inconsistent for an all powerful, all knowing god to fail to rescue those He created.

The masses reject GOD'S REVELATION OF HIMSELF precisely because they are WICKED SINNERS WHO HATE GOD. And the Bible teaches that FEW will find life, and that the MAJORITY will be condemned and punished with everlasting destruction and damnation.

Why are some folks "wicked sinners", do they have the wicked gene? Or were they born into wicked circumstances by no fault of their own? My friend not one of these "wicked sinners" will reject God's offer of salvation when they are fully informed, NOT ONE! "God is no respecter of persons". He will eventually bring every individual to a point of full disclosure, otherwise he is not just, merciful or loving.



LIE. Paul DID NOT SAY THAT.

I challenge you to provide ONE SINGLE VERSE that says "all will be saved".
I further challenge you to find the verse that says "AS MANY as were condemend by Adam's sin will be saved by Jesus' blood."

Brother, please read the context: Romans (5.12-21) Paul makes it very clear that the results of Jesus blood is even more inclusive than the condemnation of resulting from Adam's sin.

Now to answer your challenge, please read very carefully: Romans 5.18 "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to JUSTIFICATION AND LIFE for all men".

If you will look at this statement by Paul you will see it is a parallel statement, the first part quantifies the second part. THE SAME ALL THAT WERE CONDEMNED IS THE SAME ALL THAT IS JUSTIFIED AND GIVEN LIFE.

Verse 19, is also parallel statements, the same "many" that is condemned is the SAME "many" that will be made righteous.

I believe this would qualify as Paul saying "all will be saved." I will add Timothy's declaration for good measure, I Tim. 4.10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who IS the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."




And if you cannot do that, then I further challenge you to ADMIT YOU HAVE LIED ABOUT GOD'S WORD.

Since I have answered your challegenes, I admit that I declare the truth of the greater hope of God accomplishing all His loving purpose. And I lie not.

hammondb3klingon1
03-12-2007, 07:39 PM
Everything you guys just said I have one thing to say

WHHHHAAAAATTTTTT.

Oh yeah I believe all of it.:killinme

Eliseus
03-13-2007, 09:23 AM
.

Now to answer your challenge, please read very carefully: Romans 5.18 "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to JUSTIFICATION AND LIFE for all men".

If you will look at this statement by Paul you will see it is a parallel statement, the first part quantifies the second part. THE SAME ALL THAT WERE CONDEMNED IS THE SAME ALL THAT IS JUSTIFIED AND GIVEN LIFE.

Let us look closely at the verse in question.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

By Adam's act of disobedience judgement came upon all men, which leads to condemnation. This is contrasted with Christ's obedience by which the free gift comes upon all men, and which leads to justification.

There are four contrasts here. Adam and Christ, one's offence and the other's righteousness, judgement and the free gift, condemnation and justification.

The offence of Adam brought judgement upon all men. You say that Christ's righteousness brings justification upon all men. However, Paul did not actually say THAT. He said that Christ's righteousness brings THE FREE GIFT upon all men. The gift of grace is available to all men. All men may avail themselves of the free gift of God's grace. Do they, however?

Notice, Adam's offence does not bring condemnation upon all men, otherwise nobody would or could be saved. Those who have condemnation are those who are in Adam, because those who are in Christ DO NOT HAVE CONDEMNATION. Therefore, although the JUDGEMENT came upon all men - for all have been JUDGED AS GUILTY - the CONDEMNATION has not come upon all men - for there are some who indeed are saved by Christ.

Following this parallel, it follows that although the free gift has come upon men, not all men are led into or receive justification. Why? Those in Christ have justification, those not in Christ have it not.

The parallel established by Paul here is that all receive judgement, and all receive the free gift. BUT not all receive condemnation, and therefore (to be consistent with the text) not all receive justification.


That is the contrast - condemnation in Adam, justification in Christ. the contrast is not that all are condemned because of Adam's sin and therefore all are justified because of Christ's righteousness, otherwise all men would be justified - right now at this present time.

Which in turn would mean there is no probatory period after death whereby the wicked will become convinced of God's grace and thereby have faith in Christ and be justified, for they would be justified NOW regardless of what they believed.

Which in turn means that (according to universal reconciliation) all men are justified without regard to faith - which utterly contradicts the plain Bible statements that justification does not and cannot occur apart from FAITH.

Universalism thus eliminates the truth of justification BY FAITH, as I just showed.

You may deny that you eliminate justification BY FAITH, but that is the logical consequences of your reasoning.

Look at verse 17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

It is those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and of the free gift, not merely all mankind, who shall reign in life by Christ.

Again, it is the ones who RECEIVE the gift, ie those who BELIEVE, who receive justification and who reign in life by Christ.

Keep this in mind.

(continued)

Eliseus
03-13-2007, 09:25 AM
part two...




Verse 19, is also parallel statements, the same "many" that is condemned is the SAME "many" that will be made righteous.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here the verb changes tense in mid verse. Adam's disobedience "made" many sinners - this is past (actually aorist, I believe, indicating a definite occurrence.) But the "many shall be made" is future tense, and thus is NOT A PAST FACT as the "were made sinners" is a PAST FACT. What this means is that IF the universalist interpretation of verse 18 were true, then verse 19 is a contradiction. Remember, verse 18 says the free gift CAME (past tense, an accomplished FACT) upon "all men", yet here not all men WERE MADE righteous. Rather, "many SHALL BE MADE righteous."

The fact that the verb changes tense PROVES the point, that it is NOT A FACT that all men WERE MADE righteous, or justified. This can ONLY be true if justification is conditioned upon FAITH, and not merely the Atonement itself, otherwise as I proved earlier ALL MEN would be PRESENTLY justified NOW, because they were justified AS A FACT in the past when Christ obeyed.

Again, this actually proves that universalism is FALSE and CONTRADICTORY.

Justification is upon only those who RECEIVE the free gift, only upon those who BELIVE. Jesus said so -

John 3:15-18
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus clearly said that life is given to those who BELIEVE, and those who DO NOT BELIEVE are EXCLUDED, because they are CONDEMNED, whereas those who DO believe are NOT CONDEMNED. This is entirely consistent with Paul's words in Romans.

Let us look further -

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus said only the believer has eternal life. Paul says grace MIGHT reign through righteousness unto eternal life - which according to Jesus is the possession of only those who believe.

The unbeliever does not have eternal life (according to Jesus).

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The one who believes has eternal life. The one who does not believe shall not see life. Obviously then, the only way one can have eternal life is by BELIEVING. Unbelief results in DEATH, and those who do not believe "shall not see life".

Unless they RECEIVE the gift, and BELIEVE.

And thus universalism is clearly refuted.

The Bible does not say "all men will be saved". It does not say "all have been justified". It certainly does not say or imply or teach that ANY will be justified APART FROM FAITH.

II Tim. 4.10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who IS the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Perhaps you meant this -

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

I perceive you are attempting to say that this verse is saying God is the saviour of all men (regardless of their believe or unbelief), and somehow he is "especially" the saviour of those who believe.

First of all, if God is the saviour of all men in the sense you believe then how is he "especially" the saviour of those who believe? What is the difference?

Secondly, the word is "specially" and is an exclusive term.

The word is found also in Acts 25:26 where it is CLEARLY an exclusive term, meaning only Agrippa is judging Paul, not everybody else.

Thirdly, the first says Christ IS the saviour of all men. If we interpret this verse according to universalism, we must conclude that all men are NOW saved. Is this what you believe? That all men are NOW saved? If all men are NOW saved (since Christ IS - presently, NOW - the Saviour of all men), then Paul contradicts himself when he previously said to the Romans that "many SHALL BE made righteous" which is YET FUTURE. In other words, all men are not NOW made righteous, but "many shall be made righteous". Which in turn means that justification of men is an ongoing process - not all men are NOW justified. And if not all men are NOW justified, then Christ is not NOW the Saviour of all men in the sense that He PRESENTLY HAS SAVED ALL MEN.

So then this verse does not teach, much less say, that "all men are saved" nor yet that "all men WILL be saved". The use of "malista" (translated "specially") here is an exclusive term, meaning that God is the Saviour of all men - specifically them that believe. OTHERWISE He is the Saviour those who DO NOT BELIEVE, which as we have seen is refuted by Christ's own words in John chapter 3.




Since I have answered your challegenes, I admit that I declare the truth of the greater hope of God accomplishing all His loving purpose. And I lie not.

Oh yes, God will certainly accomplish "all His loving purpose" but that does not mean that all men will be ultimately saved. It is God's loving purpose that al men be saved in this life, through faith. It is not God's loving purpose that all men be saved irregardless of their faith.

Grace saves THROUGH FAITH. Without faith, Grace is not operating in a person's life unto salvation. Therefore, no man will be saved by the grace of God APART FROM FAITH.

And there is NO VERSE ANYWHERE which says that men who die without faith will be given another chance to "believe and be saved."

The warnings of Scripture against unbelief are CLEAR and unambiguous. If universal reconciliation were TRUE, then all such warnings are superfluous and contradictory, calculated as they are to warn men to FEAR THE RESULTS OF DESPISING GOD'S GOODNESS and MERCY.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

Eliseus
03-13-2007, 09:40 AM
.

Suppose we had a God that could rehabilitate every sinners and set them free from Satan's bondage. Let's suppose He also loves these sinner and desires the best for them........hmmmm?

Let us suppose we stick to what Scripture says and teaches. Let us suppose that God has said the wicked shall be destroyed.

What then, hmmm?




Excuse me, Bro. I forgot that you don't believe in endless torment. Your position is much more merciful. It is certainly more merciful to burn someone completely up, than to torture forever. However, it still is inconsistent for an all powerful, all knowing god to fail to rescue those He created.

First of all, the destruction of the wicked is not based upon "which view seems more merciful to our human, fallible, sense of what people ought to get". Secondly, God failed to rescue all the people in Noah's day, failed to rescue all the people in Sodom in Lot's day, failed to rescue the Egyptians in Moses' day, and will fail to rescue any unbeliever who dies impenitent in our day. Why? Because hs desogned that men be saved by FAITH, and not while in their unbelief.

God has NOT designed any Purgatory to "purify" sinners after they die. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Except a man is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Shall people achieve holiness after death, when they rejected holiness in this life? Shall people be born again after death, when they rejected regeneration in this life?

Why should God save anyone against their own wishes? What kind of God is it that will FORCE people to be saved?

Universalism has a low view of sin, for it cannot imagine that sin - any sin - should deserve ETERNAL DEATH.

Universalism therefore has a low view of God, for it cannot imagine God is HOLY ENOUGH that insulting His goodness and despising His mercy is DESERVING of DEATH.

Universalism has a low view of man, for it supposes that ultimately nobody is actually RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS and aCCOUNTABLE. Which in turn is a result of a low view of God for it supposes that God is not righteous enough to hol dmen accountable for their actions.

Universalism has a low view of the cross, for it supposes that trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting the blood of the Covenant is not something deserving of SORE PUNISHMENT.

Universalism has a low view of GRACE for it supposes that despising grace is not worthy of DEATH.

If Grace is the unmerited offer of eternal life, and a man rejects it and does not want it, then why should he have it? Universalism says he should have it because God OWES IT TO HIM. Witness the above statement, that God is too loving to FAIL TO RESCUE sinners...

God didn't owe ONE SINGLE SOUL salvation from death, hell, and the grave.

Universalism thus converts GRACE into OBLIGATION, and expects us to believe that God OWES IT TO US to save us!

Universalism places the foundation of salvation upon God's JUSTICE and not upon His MERCY, in other words. It converts God into a LEGALIST of sorts.

Universalism is a false doctrine.



Why are some folks "wicked sinners", do they have the wicked gene? Or were they born into wicked circumstances by no fault of their own? My friend not one of these "wicked sinners" will reject God's offer of salvation when they are fully informed, NOT ONE! "God is no respecter of persons". He will eventually bring every individual to a point of full disclosure, otherwise he is not just, merciful or loving.

See? "Born into wicked circumstance sthrough no fault of their own..." Universalism ultimately denies that MEN DESERVE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. It denies that sin is actually WILLFUL CRIME AGAINST GOD. It perceives sin to be like an infectious disease, and therefore supposes that God MUST, out of a sense of OBLIGATION, save sinners, much like a good doctror MUST out of a sense of obligation do what he can to save and treat sick people....

But is this correct? Is this a correct view of the situation mankind finds himself in?

NOT AT ALL.

Sin is crime against God, which ALL HAVE COMMITTED. Therefore ALL DESERVE DEATH. Therefore God is NOT OBLIGATED TO SAVE ANYONE AT ALL.

Universalists simply cannot see that they DESERVE HELL for their SINS. So they expect God to save them REGARDLESS of anything.

Suppose God did not save someone?

The universalist avers that God would be UNJUST!

Yet the Bible teaches that the JUSTICE of God DEMANDS ALL MANKIND BE DAMNED FOR THEIR SINS.

It is the MERCY of God which saves us FROM PUNISHMENT.

And the MERCY of God saves us THROUGH FAITH, not "in spite of our persistent rebellious unbelief."

Universalism is a false doctrine, presenting a false gospel.

crakjak
03-13-2007, 05:00 PM
[QUOTE=Eliseus;38016]Let us suppose we stick to what Scripture says and teaches. Let us suppose that God has said the wicked shall be destroyed.

What then, hmmm?

Come on, Eliseus, you are the one that started this line of supposing why denigrate me for responding with the same reasoning? Especially when it is to change the subject and avoid answering the supposition.



First of all, the destruction of the wicked is not based upon "which view seems more merciful to our human, fallible, sense of what people ought to get". Secondly, God failed to rescue all the people in Noah's day, failed to rescue all the people in Sodom in Lot's day, failed to rescue the Egyptians in Moses' day, and will fail to rescue any unbeliever who dies impenitent in our day. Why? Because hs desogned that men be saved by FAITH, and not while in their unbelief.

All of these examples are of national judgments and is of temporal destruction only, these in no way are referring to annihilation. God is not yet "all in all" therefore the end of these people is not yet told.


God has NOT designed any Purgatory to "purify" sinners after they die. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Except a man is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Shall people achieve holiness after death, when they rejected holiness in this life? Shall people be born again after death, when they rejected regeneration in this life?
I will give the answer to this total distortion of scripture with three scriptural references that will show the total inaccuracy of your meaning of the above comments:

"...for without holiness no man shall SEE the Lord." (Heb. 12.14)

"The pure in heart shall SEE God." (Matt. 5.8)

"ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD. (Luke.5)

This shows conclusively that ALL will eventually have holiness and be pure in heart.

Eliseus, would it be possible for you to accept a revealed truth that conflicted with your accepted view, even if it were irrefutable???? I wonder?

Why should God save anyone against their own wishes? What kind of God is it that will FORCE people to be saved?

That is a most idiotic statement, NOT ONE INDIVIDUAL, FULLY INFORMED WILL REFUSE GOD'S REDEMPTION, SIMPLY BECAUSE HIS LOVE IS IRRESISTIBLE.


Universalism has a low view of sin, for it cannot imagine that sin - any sin - should deserve ETERNAL DEATH.

UR does not excuse sin, rather that every sin will receive a "just recompense" and it will not be pleasant. A more accurate statement is, that God will not allow any man to commit a sin that is irreparable for God, or that is deserving of annihilation.



Universalism therefore has a low view of God, for it cannot imagine God is HOLY ENOUGH that insulting His goodness and despising His mercy is DESERVING of DEATH.

All men are born and shaped in iniquity, therefore handicapped concerning God's holiness. God will bring all men through a process of purification and refining so that all men can dwell in His Holy Presence. NO MAN, FULLY INFORMED WILL DESPISE GOD'S MERCY, AND I SIMPLY BELIEVE SCRIPTURE TEACHES GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF INDIVIDUALS AND WILL THEREFORE GIVE VERY HUMAN FULL DISCLOSURE, AT WHICH EVERY MAN WILL WILLING SURRENDER TO HIS MERCY.


Universalism has a low view of man, for it supposes that ultimately nobody is actually RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS and aCCOUNTABLE. Which in turn is a result of a low view of God for it supposes that God is not righteous enough to hol dmen accountable for their actions.

Universalism has a low view of the cross, for it supposes that trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting the blood of the Covenant is not something deserving of SORE PUNISHMENT.

Universalism has a low view of GRACE for it supposes that despising grace is not worthy of DEATH.

If Grace is the unmerited offer of eternal life, and a man rejects it and does not want it, then why should he have it? Universalism says he should have it because God OWES IT TO HIM. Witness the above statement, that God is too loving to FAIL TO RESCUE sinners...

God didn't owe ONE SINGLE SOUL salvation from death, hell, and the grave.

Universalism thus converts GRACE into OBLIGATION, and expects us to believe that God OWES IT TO US to save us!

Universalism places the foundation of salvation upon God's JUSTICE and not upon His MERCY, in other words. It converts God into a LEGALIST of sorts.


With the above tirade, HOW can you possible accuse me of a low opinion of God. IT IS YOU WHO ACCUSES GOD OF LACKING THE ABILITY OR ELSE THE DESIRE TO SAVE THE VERY INDIVIDUALS THAT HE HIMSELF CREATED AND THEREFORE IN CONTEMPT AND ANGER BURNS THEM TO A CRISP!!!:dunno :dunno


See? "Born into wicked circumstance sthrough no fault of their own..." Universalism ultimately denies that MEN DESERVE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. It denies that sin is actually WILLFUL CRIME AGAINST GOD. It perceives sin to be like an infectious disease, and therefore supposes that God MUST, out of a sense of OBLIGATION, save sinners, much like a good doctror MUST out of a sense of obligation do what he can to save and treat sick people....

Not so, more like a loving parent doing everything they can for the best interest of their children.

God's stated purpose is to seek and to save His creation, and scripture DECLARES THAT HE WILL REDEEM HIS WHOLE CREATION. You seem to forget that the earth and all that is in it is the Lord's, man did not just evolve out of nothing, he belongs to God. (Romans 8.21-23)


Man was BORN INTO SIN, NOT BY ANY CHOICE OF HIS OWN, the earth and creation is God's project and He is obligated and responsible for HIS creation, and scripture declares He willing does so.

(Romans 8.20), "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;because the creation itself will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Steve Epley
03-13-2007, 08:05 PM
We discussed this subject thoroughly on one forum.

hammondb3klingon1
03-13-2007, 08:13 PM
The wicked will be destroyed in the last bomb that is dropped before the next bomb.

crakjak
03-14-2007, 12:00 AM
Grace saves THROUGH FAITH. Without faith, Grace is not operating in a person's life unto salvation. Therefore, no man will be saved by the grace of God APART FROM FAITH.

And there is NO VERSE ANYWHERE which says that men who die without faith will be given another chance to "believe and be saved."

The warnings of Scripture against unbelief are CLEAR and unambiguous. If universal reconciliation were TRUE, then all such warnings are superfluous and contradictory, calculated as they are to warn men to FEAR THE RESULTS OF DESPISING GOD'S GOODNESS and MERCY.


You have created a great straw man, and then proceeded to knock him down. My whole point is that all men will eventually come to faith in God, as the result of God's wooing. I totally believe one must believe to enter into the LIFE THAT JESUS PURCHASED WITH HIS BLOOD.

NO SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE SAYS THAT GOD'S PURSUIT OF MAN ENDS AT PHYSICAL DEATH. THE WARNINGS THAT YOU SPEAK OF CLEARLY STATE THAT A MAN MUST ENTER INTO CHRIST THRU FAITH TO RECIEVE THE LIFE THAT JESUS HAS ALREADY PAID FOR. I AGREE, ROMANS 5.8, SAYS THAT JESUS' RIGHTEOUS ACT LEADS TO JUSTIFICATION AND LIFE for ALL MEN. I COR. 15.22 DECLARES, "....ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST." And as you say this is future tense, okay so be it.

crakjak
03-14-2007, 12:02 AM
We discussed this subject thoroughly on one forum.

Yes, we did and some want to discuss it some more.:ty :killinme