PDA

View Full Version : New Bernard Letter/Topic: WPF & the Tulsa conference


SecretWarrior
01-22-2008, 03:32 PM
Date: January 21, 2008
To: Ministers of the South Texas District
From: David K. Bernard, District Superintendent

I have received some inquiries about the upcoming meeting in Tulsa of the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship based on the mail-out that all of us received. I would like to give you some information from my perspective. There seem to be three basic reasons for this meeting:

1. Some are concerned about the recent resolution that allows television advertising and ministry. I have already written about this, so I won’t belabor the point. There is a legitimate concern that TV could be used in a detrimental way. I believe that we should carefully monitor the situation and take any corrective actions needed. While most of our churches will not be affected significantly, I have recommended some guidelines for any who contemplate the use of this media for evangelism. (See the January-February 2008 Forward, p. 6.) In short, I don’t believe the resolution itself is the main cause for the Tulsa meeting, but it has drawn attention to the more significant factors stated below.
2. Some would like to see different leaders and different leadership paradigms. While it is understandable that some would be frustrated because their vision has not been fully embraced, the proper way for apostolic brethren to address this desire is through our constitutional process of elections and resolutions by a majority vote of the constituency.
3. Some are concerned about a drift away from biblical positions on outward holiness. Both before and after the resolution passed, some characterized it as a referendum on holiness. I don’t believe it was a repudiation of our belief in holiness, however. It had more to do with advances of technology (which have caused many people to equate advertising/broadcasting on TV and Internet), desire for more evangelistic tools, and respect for the autonomy of the local church. While the resolution has not changed our Articles of Faith or our position of holiness, nevertheless I share the concern that some churches are drifting away from our historic stand on certain holiness issues. Thus I respect those who may go to Tulsa as a way of stating this concern.

Having said that, I don’t believe the Tulsa meeting is the best way to address the problem, because of some complicating factors:

1. It seems clear that the Tulsa conference organizers have decided to form a new ministerial organization called the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship (WPF). (Don’t confuse this with the Pentecostal World Fellowship, which is a cooperative body of the leading trinitarian Pentecostal organizations.) As the WPF mail-out shows, they have developed an extensive organizational structure and have selected the key leaders. It seems that the chosen form of government is oligarchy. The WPF website reveals that it already has its own Articles of Faith (which prohibit “soliciting television for ministry” but don’t prohibit TV advertising or unsolicited TV ministry). The WPF will parallel the UPCI’s efforts in such areas as Foreign Missions, Home Missions, Youth Ministry, Ladies Ministry, Education, and even Bible Quizzing. To fulfill this plan, the WPF will need to identify ministerial license in some way in order to qualify members, qualify officers, conduct votes, and enforce adherence to its Articles of Faith. However, the Manual of the UPCI states that its ministers cannot be licensed with another “organization or association” (Art. VII, Sec. 2, Par.

6). Thus, it appears that those who officially join the WPF will be choosing to leave the UPCI. Some of the organizers have already done so. While there is great value in conferences that promote holiness, I don’t believe the solution is to form a new organization.

2. I am concerned about the ethical approach of this new group. It doesn’t seem right for a group to send a mass mail-out to all the ministers of the UPCI that, in effect, solicits them to join a new organization. It is one thing to respond to requests for information, but it is another thing to actively promote a division through mail and phone calls and to bestow offices in advance. This problem is compounded in that the mail-out was sent not only to pastors but also to ministers who work under a senior pastor without first contacting that pastor. The practical result could be confusion or even division within local churches, which has already begun
to develop.

3. As a further concern, some ministers on the original mail-out did not give consent for their names to be used in this fashion. Others gave permission but did not intend to communicate that they are leaving the UPCI and forming a new organization, although that is the common perception of the mail-out. Some names have been removed from the website because of this problem, but others have not.

4. There was a similar meeting in our district, in Houston in 2006, organized by some of the same people. This meeting involved similar problems of names used without consent, advertising contrary to UPCI policy, and an agenda different from the stated purpose. At that time, statements were made about not supporting the UPCI Foreign Missions program and even leaving the UPCI.

How many are planning to leave the UPCI over these matters? No one knows for sure; it is anyone’s guess. After discussion with some district leaders, I estimate that 100 to 200 pastors and churches will leave. Some have said they will join the WPF, while others have said they will become independent. This number is significant, but to put it in perspective, the UPCI currently has about 4,500 churches and daughter works in the U.S. and Canada. Thus, it appears that about 96% or more of pastors will stay in the UPCI. It seems that the WPF will begin with an international constituency smaller than our district. Although it aspires to be a worldwide group, I haven’t yet seen any development of leadership among African-Americans, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, or nationals outside the U.S. and Canada.

By far, the state most affected will be California, where some are leaving in part because of the recent decision to make Southern California its own district. From what I have heard, in most other districts the number of pastors who plan to leave ranges from zero to ten. In our district, one pastor in the Gulf Coast Section has notified me that he is leaving. A few other pastors in our district have told me they plan to attend the Tulsa meeting but don’t plan to leave the UPCI. It does not seem that there will be a significant impact on either the South Texas District or the Texas District.

As district superintendent, I strongly affirm the Apostolic doctrine and lifestyle as stated in the UPCI Articles of Faith and as described extensively in the books I have written. Moreover, our District Board unanimously affirms this position. At the beginning of our district we established platform guidelines as a means of communicating our commitment to the outward expression of holiness, and we continue to work diligently to uphold this stance in our district and sectional meetings. In 2007, the District Board discussed extensively the need to emphasize these beliefs and practices in light of the drift in some areas. As one step, we scheduled guest preachers for the 2007 Family Camp who would strongly reaffirm our Apostolic identity. They did a good job, but unfortunately both have since become part of the formation of this alternative organization, thereby undercutting their own efforts and influence in our midst.

With all its perceived flaws, the UPCI is the greatest vehicle for Apostolic revival and evangelism in the world today. It is active in 179 nations and has about 28,000 churches worldwide. It is not equivalent to the body of Christ, but it is certainly a large part of the body of Christ. As such, I don’t want to harm the efforts of the UPCI, because in doing so I would harm the body of Christ and the cause of Apostolic revival worldwide. In my extensive travels across North America and around the world, I find that the vast majority of UPCI ministers want to maintain the Apostolic doctrine and the lifestyle of holiness, both inwardly and outwardly. Therefore, I believe it is more effective to exert a strong, positive influence for truth in cooperation with thousands of churches and with a balanced approach.

In summary, I appeal to all ministers to unite around the biblical message of holiness and not to compromise our historic identity. Let each of us remember that true holiness involves outward appearance and choices of entertainment, and it also involves attitudes, communications, ethics, fellowship in the body, and respecting spiritual authority. If some wish to attend the Tulsa conference in order to affirm our position of holiness, then I appreciate your sincere desire. At the same time, I urge you not to leave the UPCI but to help us maintain a strong, godly identity and help us sustain our momentum for growth.

grace_seeker
01-22-2008, 04:07 PM
Nice Letter....what is Oligarchy?

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 04:08 PM
Nice Letter....what is Oligarchy?

A government by a few, especially by family and friends.

mfblume
01-22-2008, 04:08 PM
Oligarchy means the rule of the few, and those few are generally the people who are richer and more powerful than the others.

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 04:10 PM
At the outset - this is so true!

While the resolution has not changed our Articles of Faith or our position of holiness, nevertheless I share the concern that some churches are drifting away from our historic stand on certain holiness issues. Thus I respect those who may go to Tulsa as a way of stating this concern.

Having said that, I don’t believe the Tulsa meeting is the best way to address the problem, because of some complicating factors:

Felicity
01-22-2008, 04:13 PM
6). Thus, it appears that those who officially join the WPF will be choosing to leave the UPCI. Some of the organizers have already done so. While there is great value in conferences that promote holiness, I don’t believe the solution is to form a new organization. Absolutely agree.

Felicity
01-22-2008, 04:14 PM
With all its perceived flaws, the UPCI is the greatest vehicle for Apostolic revival and evangelism in the world today.Don't agree. There has been massive revival and evangelism in the world today and in former times that the UPCI had/has nothing to do with.

CC1
01-22-2008, 04:30 PM
As I predicted it appears the UPC will "knee jerk" to the right as it tries to prove it's "street cred" when it comes to so called "holiness" standards,

This should just be a temporary situation though as the moderates / libs are left in control. Hopefully emphasis over time will become the core doctrines of the church with local churches / pastors given the authonomy on standards.

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 04:57 PM
Don't agree. There has been massive revival and evangelism in the world today and in former times that the UPCI had/has nothing to do with.
He also goes on to say, which is important to include in the quote you posted:

It is not equivalent to the body of Christ, but it is certainly a large part of the body of Christ. As such, I don’t want to harm the efforts of the UPCI, because in doing so I would harm the body of Christ and the cause of Apostolic revival worldwide.

Felicity
01-22-2008, 05:08 PM
PO.......

I didn't respond to every point Bro. Bernard made. I didn't have a problem with that statement. ;) :)

PocatelloApostolic
01-22-2008, 05:38 PM
Date: January 21, 2008
To: Ministers of the South Texas District
With all its perceived flaws, the UPCI is the greatest vehicle for Apostolic revival and evangelism in the world today.

Says WHO?? The UPCI DOES NOT have an edge on Apostolic Revival or Evangelism!!! What is the sin in another Holiness-minded Fellowship? Is the UPC worried about something??!!

Neck
01-22-2008, 05:44 PM
Anytime the word "urge" is used. Take notice the writter knows many have already made up their mind...

Also what is? 3. Some are concerned about a drift away from biblical positions on outward holiness.

99% of the standards from my 43 years around the UPCI had no biblical position to back them up.

They were all dumped into the verse, Come out from among them.

Neck
01-22-2008, 05:45 PM
Date: January 21, 2008
To: Ministers of the South Texas District
With all its perceived flaws, the UPCI is the greatest vehicle for Apostolic revival and evangelism in the world today.

Says WHO?? The UPCI DOES NOT have an edge on Apostolic Revival or Evangelism!!! What is the sin in another Holiness-minded Fellowship? Is the UPC worried about something??!!

I agree.

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 05:58 PM
PO.......

I didn't respond to every point Bro. Bernard made. I didn't have a problem with that statement. ;) :)
In fairness to Brother Bernard, because he is rather intelligent - lol - He is proud of his organization as many label him a company man. If he wasn't a company man I would have to question his loyalty - it's a given - your are either in or out.

Having said that, I interpret the quote you posted as being proud of who we are as an organization and what we stand for according to the Word of God while also saying we are a part of the body and do not make up the entirety.

I can see how the quote you focused on could be perceived in the way you took it, because that is how many want to interpret what he said.

I am ticked about Tulsa!!! lol

We have upheld the same mission statement and the largest percentage of the people want to dress modestly and act decent! We didn't need another organization to come and drag us across picket lines and draw lines in the sand and force people to do the wrong thing to stay with their family.

Lord!

You know what we did wrong? - We wanted running, dancing, flipping and floating and did not want to wait for God to open the door in EVERY SERVICE TO SHOW US THE WAY!!!! WAIT FOR THE DOOR DIRECTIVE AND THEN WALK THROUGH IT. STOP RUSHING EVERYTHING.

IF YOU DON'T DO THAT IN YOUR PERSONAL PRAYER LIFE THAN STOP DOING IT AT CHURCH. IF YOU DO THAT IN YOUR PERSONAL PRAYER LIFE THAN YOU NEED TO STOP AND SLOW DOWN.

There is a difference in our carnal maneuvers and waiting for the leading of God's spirit.

I am ticked!!!!

Okay, that's all. :biggrin:

Felicity
01-22-2008, 06:14 PM
I'm ticked about Tulsa too PO. I've talked with close friends of mine about this and we all see eye to eye. I've been around long enough to recognize what is happening and I've made a bunch of posts on the topic here on AFF.

However, for all of D Bernard's intelligence I don't agree with everything he thinks or says. And regarding the statement I took exception to .... well I've been making the same comment that I made in regard to DB's statement for years now. It's nothing new.

But I'm seeing a disconnect between the Tulsa deal and the the 2nd half of your post. LOL. :)

The issue you raise in the 2nd half of your post is something that we've never done in the churches I've attended nor in the churches we pastor.

I can tell you're ticked. Settle down now! :toofunny

BoredOutOfMyMind
01-22-2008, 06:23 PM
I can tell you're ticked. Settle down now! :toofunny

Who is PO?

Felicity
01-22-2008, 06:39 PM
Who is PO?You've forgotten! :shocked: Oh my! PO's going to be VERY ticked at you. Be afraid! Be very afraid!

:toofunny

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 06:58 PM
Who is PO?
Hehehehehe! Ze burr in your saddle! :bubble

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 07:15 PM
I'm ticked about Tulsa too PO. I've talked with close friends of mine about this and we all see eye to eye. I've been around long enough to recognize what is happening and I've made a bunch of posts on the topic here on AFF.

However, for all of D Bernard's intelligence I don't agree with everything he thinks or says. And regarding the statement I took exception to .... well I've been making the same comment that I made in regard to DB's statement for years now. It's nothing new.

But I'm seeing a disconnect between the Tulsa deal and the the 2nd half of your post. LOL. :)

The issue you raise in the 2nd half of your post is something that we've never done in the churches I've attended nor in the churches we pastor.

I can tell you're ticked. Settle down now! :toofunny
True on the agreeing part. I don't agree with everything you say. See how that works? lol

I didn't interpret Brother Bernard's comments in the light you took it. I couldn't after he also says we are NOT the whole body, but a part.

Anywayssss, lol, the Tulsa deal and the second half of my post is my venting.

Even in the worst of services and under the worst of leadership I have found and felt God. Having said that, I have seen a move from our careful seeking of God before the services and moving into wanting more of an outward show of spirituality and not enough of a sensitivity to the moving of his Spirit.

It doesn't mean we need to ditch the whole deal and start over. If we do start over it needs to be on our knees. When we make mistakes it is part of our correction, part of our growing and so I have hope for it always.

Perhaps, for some, leaving is necessary. I'm just astonished at it all, that's all.

The same things we stand for is the same mission statement put out by WWPF. I've been around meetings where the women are dressed modestly and love to worship and I'm wondering what all the hullabaloo is about!

How is a set of rules going make a carnal man better? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?

Okay, enough on my part.

rgcraig
01-22-2008, 07:20 PM
You've forgotten! :shocked: Oh my! PO's going to be VERY ticked at you. Be afraid! Be very afraid!

:toofunny

Boom knew before she posted today. It was his lost sense of humor!

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Boom knew before she posted today. It was his lost sense of humor!
Did you give him his check yet? lol

rgcraig
01-22-2008, 07:28 PM
Did you give him his check yet? lol

I decided to give it in the offering.

stmatthew
01-22-2008, 07:42 PM
Date: January 21, 2008
To: Ministers of the South Texas District
From: David K. Bernard, District Superintendent


How many are planning to leave the UPCI over these matters? No one knows for sure; it is anyone’s guess. After discussion with some district leaders, I estimate that 100 to 200 pastors and churches will leave. Some have said they will join the WPF, while others have said they will become independent. This number is significant, but to put it in perspective, the UPCI currently has about 4,500 churches and daughter works in the U.S. and Canada. Thus, it appears that about 96% or more of pastors will stay in the UPCI. It seems that the WPF will begin with an international constituency smaller than our district. Although it aspires to be a worldwide group, I haven’t yet seen any development of leadership among African-Americans, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, or nationals outside the U.S. and Canada.

By far, the state most affected will be California, where some are leaving in part because of the recent decision to make Southern California its own district. From what I have heard, in most other districts the number of pastors who plan to leave ranges from zero to ten. In our district, one pastor in the Gulf Coast Section has notified me that he is leaving. A few other pastors in our district have told me they plan to attend the Tulsa meeting but don’t plan to leave the UPCI. It does not seem that there will be a significant impact on either the South Texas District or the Texas District.



Something was pointed out elsewhere that I thought made sense. IF there are only 4% of the UPCI preachers that are possibly leaving, why all the letter writing and alarm, as if many are going to be carried away with this. It seems that if the numbers are so few, there would be no worry. But I believe those that are writing the letters recognize that the numbers potentially could be much higher, therefore are alarmed, and are attempting to deflate the Tulsa event.

There are several other issues with the letter, but I will leave it at that for now.

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 08:05 PM
I decided to give it in the offering.

LOL! You're a good girl, but you forget that Boom takes up the offering. Keep an eye on him! lol

Pressing-On
01-22-2008, 08:06 PM
Something was pointed out elsewhere that I thought made sense. IF there are only 4% of the UPCI preachers that are possibly leaving, why all the letter writing and alarm, as if many are going to be carried away with this. It seems that if the numbers are so few, there would be no worry. But I believe those that are writing the letters recognize that the numbers potentially could be much higher, therefore are alarmed, and are attempting to deflate the Tulsa event.

There are several other issues with the letter, but I will leave it at that for now.St. Matt,
Any kind of split is alarming. It's not like Southwestern Bell and AT&T - it's Apostolics!

Okay, I was going to stop talking about this. Didn't I say that? lol

Steve Epley
01-22-2008, 08:32 PM
Something was pointed out elsewhere that I thought made sense. IF there are only 4% of the UPCI preachers that are possibly leaving, why all the letter writing and alarm, as if many are going to be carried away with this. It seems that if the numbers are so few, there would be no worry. But I believe those that are writing the letters recognize that the numbers potentially could be much higher, therefore are alarmed, and are attempting to deflate the Tulsa event.

There are several other issues with the letter, but I will leave it at that for now.

I am NOT UPC and I am not going to Tulsa and would NOT join if I went. But I think these guys protest tooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. I don't think they would be this concerned if they thought it would only affect 200 churches. However 200 churches is a very good foundation for an organization formation.

Old Paths
01-22-2008, 09:39 PM
Something was pointed out elsewhere that I thought made sense. IF there are only 4% of the UPCI preachers that are possibly leaving, why all the letter writing and alarm, as if many are going to be carried away with this. It seems that if the numbers are so few, there would be no worry. But I believe those that are writing the letters recognize that the numbers potentially could be much higher, therefore are alarmed, and are attempting to deflate the Tulsa event.

There are several other issues with the letter, but I will leave it at that for now.



Well they are now up to 100 or 200 pastors.

A couple weeks ago it was only about 20 pastors.

The true number may never be known because many that are getting out will not join the WPF.

Time will tell.

Steve Epley
01-22-2008, 09:50 PM
Well they are now up to 100 or 200 pastors.

A couple weeks ago it was only about 20 pastors.

The true number may never be known because many that are getting out will not join the WPF.

Time will tell.

I have spoke with dozens of pastors getting out but many are not joining the Tulsa group but becoming GIBs.

CC1
01-22-2008, 11:33 PM
The guys I wonder about are the conservative evangelists caught in the middle. Like the one that I spent a day with last week.

He is going to the Tulsa meeting to "check it out". He is fairly conservative (used to pretty much be an ultra con but has moderated to just conservative over the years) and I know he preaches for a lot of very conservative preachers.

If a bunch of them leave for the Tulsa Worldwide United Pentecostal Fellowship or whatever the name is then preachers like him are going to see their places to preach suddenly shrink greatly.

If they stay with the UPC they probably won't be invited to speak at the new org. churches because they werent "brave" enough to jump ship and if they do become a Tulsaite they will probably be persona non grata in UPC churches.

josh
01-22-2008, 11:36 PM
Anybody else notice the irony of a UPC official taking a group to task for being a little too "white?"


The WPF hasn't even had their first meeting and they're being judged by something the UPC has flopped at for over fifty years.

embonpoint
01-23-2008, 01:39 AM
Date: January 21, 2008
To: Ministers of the South Texas District
From: David K. Bernard, District Superintendent

I have received some inquiries about the upcoming meeting in Tulsa of the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship based on the mail-out that all of us received. I would like to give you some information from my perspective. There seem to be three basic reasons for this meeting:

1. Some are concerned about the recent resolution that allows television advertising and ministry. I have already written about this, so I won’t belabor the point. There is a legitimate concern that TV could be used in a detrimental way. I believe that we should carefully monitor the situation and take any corrective actions needed. While most of our churches will not be affected significantly, I have recommended some guidelines for any who contemplate the use of this media for evangelism. (See the January-February 2008 Forward, p. 6.) In short, I don’t believe the resolution itself is the main cause for the Tulsa meeting, but it has drawn attention to the more significant factors stated below.
2. Some would like to see different leaders and different leadership paradigms. While it is understandable that some would be frustrated because their vision has not been fully embraced, the proper way for apostolic brethren to address this desire is through our constitutional process of elections and resolutions by a majority vote of the constituency.
3. Some are concerned about a drift away from biblical positions on outward holiness. Both before and after the resolution passed, some characterized it as a referendum on holiness. I don’t believe it was a repudiation of our belief in holiness, however. It had more to do with advances of technology (which have caused many people to equate advertising/broadcasting on TV and Internet), desire for more evangelistic tools, and respect for the autonomy of the local church. While the resolution has not changed our Articles of Faith or our position of holiness, nevertheless I share the concern that some churches are drifting away from our historic stand on certain holiness issues. Thus I respect those who may go to Tulsa as a way of stating this concern.

Having said that, I don’t believe the Tulsa meeting is the best way to address the problem, because of some complicating factors:

1. It seems clear that the Tulsa conference organizers have decided to form a new ministerial organization called the Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship (WPF). (Don’t confuse this with the Pentecostal World Fellowship, which is a cooperative body of the leading trinitarian Pentecostal organizations.) As the WPF mail-out shows, they have developed an extensive organizational structure and have selected the key leaders. It seems that the chosen form of government is oligarchy. The WPF website reveals that it already has its own Articles of Faith (which prohibit “soliciting television for ministry” but don’t prohibit TV advertising or unsolicited TV ministry). The WPF will parallel the UPCI’s efforts in such areas as Foreign Missions, Home Missions, Youth Ministry, Ladies Ministry, Education, and even Bible Quizzing. To fulfill this plan, the WPF will need to identify ministerial license in some way in order to qualify members, qualify officers, conduct votes, and enforce adherence to its Articles of Faith. However, the Manual of the UPCI states that its ministers cannot be licensed with another “organization or association” (Art. VII, Sec. 2, Par.

6). Thus, it appears that those who officially join the WPF will be choosing to leave the UPCI. Some of the organizers have already done so. While there is great value in conferences that promote holiness, I don’t believe the solution is to form a new organization.

2. I am concerned about the ethical approach of this new group. It doesn’t seem right for a group to send a mass mail-out to all the ministers of the UPCI that, in effect, solicits them to join a new organization. It is one thing to respond to requests for information, but it is another thing to actively promote a division through mail and phone calls and to bestow offices in advance. This problem is compounded in that the mail-out was sent not only to pastors but also to ministers who work under a senior pastor without first contacting that pastor. The practical result could be confusion or even division within local churches, which has already begun
to develop.

DB talks much about what "seems" or "appears" to be the intent of the WPF organizers.In December, a message from DB to ministers on the CAF was posted here on AFF,in which he states,

"1. I don’t mind people disagreeing with my positions and offering a reasoned response, criticism, or correction, but I was shocked to read numerous accusations against me, my family, and my church based on innuendos, hearsay, and outright false information. No one checked with me about the accuracy of these statements, although some know me personally. If I have an uncorrected fault, why don’t they approach me in a spirit of love instead of accusing me to the brethren? How can they make these comments or provide a forum for these comments in light of the many scriptural prohibitions?"

I wonder if he has personally contacted the Tulsa organizers with his concerns and to check the accuracy of some of the statements he makes?

This problem is compounded in that the mail-out was sent not only to pastors but also to ministers who work under a senior pastor without first contacting that pastor. The practical result could be confusion or even division within local churches, which has already begun
to develop.

I also wonder about his consistency in this area as I notice his letter is not addressed only to Pastors but to "Ministers" of the STD.

trickledown
01-23-2008, 02:06 AM
in DBs defense his district position would give him a forum that ethically allows him to speak to all ministers while Tulsa's tactics may be questioned on this point of circumventing the pastor
i have one close friend who will probably join and will put the pastor he assists in an awkward position

Stephanas
01-23-2008, 09:01 AM
Date: January 21, 2008
To: Ministers of the South Texas District
From: David K. Bernard, District Superintendent

. . . The WPF website reveals that it already has its own Articles of Faith (which prohibit “soliciting television for ministry” but don’t prohibit TV advertising or unsolicited TV ministry). . . .

Is it really true that WPF members will be free to advertise on television?

If so they have incorporated the results of Resolution #4 into their Articles of Faith. Hilarious!!

Somebody with a television needs to check and see if they are advertising the Tulsa Conference on Fox News. :killinme

Neck
01-23-2008, 09:05 AM
I am NOT UPC and I am not going to Tulsa and would NOT join if I went. But I think these guys protest tooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. I don't think they would be this concerned if they thought it would only affect 200 churches. However 200 churches is a very good foundation for an organization formation.

You observation and mine are the same..

Ne

Consapostolic1
01-23-2008, 11:47 AM
Anybody else notice the irony of a UPC official taking a group to task for being a little too "white?"


The WPF hasn't even had their first meeting and they're being judged by something the UPC has flopped at for over fifty years.

That's kind of funny that he does bring the race factor to attention.

Mr. Steinway
01-23-2008, 12:01 PM
The guys I wonder about are the conservative evangelists caught in the middle. Like the one that I spent a day with last week.

He is going to the Tulsa meeting to "check it out". He is fairly conservative (used to pretty much be an ultra con but has moderated to just conservative over the years) and I know he preaches for a lot of very conservative preachers.

If a bunch of them leave for the Tulsa Worldwide United Pentecostal Fellowship or whatever the name is then preachers like him are going to see their places to preach suddenly shrink greatly.

If they stay with the UPC they probably won't be invited to speak at the new org. churches because they werent "brave" enough to jump ship and if they do become a Tulsaite they will probably be persona non grata in UPC churches.
Your right again, CC1! It's the evangelists that are caught in the middle. They must choose which side benefits them most!

Timmy
01-23-2008, 12:17 PM
Is it really true that WPF members will be free to advertise on television?

If so they have incorporated the results of Resolution #4 into their Articles of Faith. Hilarious!!

Somebody with a television needs to check and see if they are advertising the Tulsa Conference on Fox News. :killinme

They fixed it.

''I will avoid soliciting television for ministry or advertising."

But they're still missing some things. They say pants are for men and not for women, but they don't really prohibit men from wearing dresses. Oh, maybe "women and men ... are to maintain their order and gender distinction outwardly by man’s cut hair and the woman’s uncut hair" is good enough! :lol

CC1
01-23-2008, 05:27 PM
They fixed it.

''I will avoid soliciting television for ministry or advertising."

But they're still missing some things. They say pants are for men and not for women, but they don't really prohibit men from wearing dresses. Oh, maybe "women and men ... are to maintain their order and gender distinction outwardly by man’s cut hair and the woman’s uncut hair" is good enough! :lol

Do they have a minimum weight requirement for licensed preachers and the female saints?

If you really want to insure inshrining all of the features of old time Oneness Pentecost this is a must. I reccomend a minimum weight of 190 for a local license, 200 for general license, and 225 for ordained. They also need something in writing like " So as to insure they are no temptation to the opposite sex we admonish all women to maintain weight of at least 160 lbs with special "glory" ascribed to those who achieve a minimum weight of 190 lbs.

(Note: I can say this because I AM a FAT BOY!!!!!)

Mr. Steinway
01-23-2008, 05:42 PM
Do they have a minimum weight requirement for licensed preachers and the female saints?

If you really want to insure inshrining all of the features of old time Oneness Pentecost this is a must. I reccomend a minimum weight of 190 for a local license, 200 for general license, and 225 for ordained. They also need something in writing like " So as to insure they are no temptation to the opposite sex we admonish all women to maintain weight of at least 160 lbs with special "glory" ascribed to those who achieve a minimum weight of 190 lbs.

(Note: I can say this because I AM a FAT BOY!!!!!)
If that's the case, I would be close to being ordained! :lol

George
01-23-2008, 06:11 PM
Do they have a minimum weight requirement for licensed preachers and the female saints?

If you really want to insure inshrining all of the features of old time Oneness Pentecost this is a must. I reccomend a minimum weight of 190 for a local license, 200 for general license, and 225 for ordained. They also need something in writing like " So as to insure they are no temptation to the opposite sex we admonish all women to maintain weight of at least 160 lbs with special "glory" ascribed to those who achieve a minimum weight of 190 lbs.

(Note: I can say this because I AM a FAT BOY!!!!!)

Add 25 pounds to each man preaching a conference. Women who are over 200 pounds would qualify for ladies ministries.

firefox
01-24-2008, 07:52 AM
It doesn’t seem right for a group to send a mass mail-out to all the ministers of the UPCI that, in effect, solicits them to join a new organization.

They also sent these to all members of the ALJC.

CC1
01-24-2008, 09:35 AM
They also sent these to all members of the ALJC.

What about Global (GNCM)?:shocked: