PDA

View Full Version : RIP: The Neutralizing of Preaching Personalities


Pages : [1] 2

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 12:25 AM
Alas, it happened again. It came unexpectedly and painted a question mark on my mind that couldn’t be ignored. That question I’ll pose to this illustrious forum.

Today we lost an undeniable ‘preaching’ personality in Pentecost with the passing of Charles Mahaney. He was one of a number of preachers that stormed into the Apostolic movement whose ministry was marked as much by ‘personality' as ‘preaching’. Understand that I’m in no way being critical of that. In fact, I think it was a great ‘plus’ to have people of famed personality among us.

Names that rush to mind when I speak of ‘preaching’ personalities are men like:
* Charles Mahaney (rough as a corn cob but passionate to the extreme).
* Jeff Arnold (the man whose slang makes the starchy among us cringe but whose revelation of truth is remarkable).
* Murrell Cornwell (whose confidence in God and his own ability to reach the lost is sometimes misperceived as obnoxious).
* Murrell Ewing (who weeps his way through life changing sermons and heart altering songs).
* G. A. Mangun (who suffered the critical tongues of men but persevered by living and breathing revival).

Names of those now gone could range from:
* Bishop Morris Golder (the silver tongued preacher who could tell you truth and make you like it).
* Joe Duke (tougher than leather and loved souls).
* Verbal Bean (made you love chewing the carpet in front of an altar).

Doubtless there are many others that you could add to the list but they had one thing in common… they are all ‘preachers’ who are known by their unique personalities. It was the combination of the ‘preaching’ and personality that made them so effective!

But we live in a different day now. We live in a day of ‘non-contradictory’ messages and cookie cutter preachers that have learned the fine art of preaching politically correct sermons that have about as much spiritual value as the plaque on your teeth.

This generation runs to the ‘smiling’ preachers of issue-less, feel good religion. The prominent names that society pushes at us under the guise of ‘successful ministries’ are lackluster and bland in matters pertaining to spirituality. The smiling non-issue hero of Houston or the joke telling comedian of Cajun descent are spiritually bland and morally indistinguishable at best.

Whether we want to admit it or not we have to confess that, in many ways, this appetite for the non-confrontational sermonette has reached even into the sacred boundaries of Apostolic truth. Just one short scan of forums like this reveals the sad truth that there are those whose idea of a ‘preacher’ is little more than a figurehead who looks the part rather than a firebrand that preaches the message.

I sat in my office today and wept like a baby when I surveyed the cult of cookie cutter preachers who would rather be known for filling certain pulpits than to be known for proclaiming God’s ways with a passionate personality. Without those rough, weeping, ‘in your face’ personalities the effective ministries listed above would have been irrepairably crippled.

My question is one that perhaps only time can answer;
* Can this generation ever again lay aside our carnal opinions and allow ‘preaching’ personalities to rise up and make a difference among the Church and the world we’re called to reach?

* Have we reached the point that our fleshly reasoning has forever neutralized preaching personalities?

* Can this generation open their hearts to new faces of those 'John the Baptist-esque' ministries that come looking outdated and disheveled to our keenly 'religious' eyes.

* Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?

We should pray, for our own sake and the sake of a lost world, that’s not the case.

Eliseus
03-12-2007, 12:43 AM
My question is one that perhaps only time can answer;
* Can this generation ever again lay aside our carnal opinions and allow ‘preaching’ personalities to rise up and make a difference among the Church and the world we’re called to reach?

* Have we reached the point that our fleshly reasoning has forever neutralized preaching personalities?

* Can this generation open their hearts to new faces of those 'John the Baptist-esque' ministries that come looking outdated and disheveled to our keenly 'religious' eyes.

* Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?



1. God sends preachers, and equips them to do His will. Therefore it is irrelevant what the target society wants or likes or dislikes. In fact, the Bible and history indicate that most God called preachers preached to masses of antagonistic people. "Beware when all men speak well of you." The preacher's ministry and commission to SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE is utterly NOT dependent upon anyone's "allowances".

2. Our "fleshly reasoning" is one of the main reasons GOD SENDS ANOINTED PREACHERS in the first place, to rebuke and correct such carnality. Thus, the sin of man cannot ever "neutralise" anointed and God-called preachers of the gospel truth.

3. This generation better receive a love of the truth, or else it is bound for hell, regardless of what the "label" says. When people prefer personality over prophetic power, they pervert their own souls and end in perdition.

4. Today there are three classes of people in the visible church: Those who have crept in unawares, and whose carnality is spreading like a cancer; Those who are thirsting for truth and who press on into the kingdom; and Those who love the truth but have not yet had their appetites stirred to a holy hunger and thirst for the deep things of God - such people when exposed to the "real deal" recognise the remedy for their soul's ills, and pursue it.

The carnal will not make room for the anointed, for Tobiahs never depart the storehouse willingly. But the Truth marches on, God still sends preachers, and anoints them.

God is calling folks to flee the wrath to come. Those who reject God's way will suffer their fate, deservedly and without excuse, because they preferred their own "tastes" to God's truths. And so they get sealed in their own delusions.

But, we must also beware the false anointing that passes mere personality off for power with God.

We will know them by their fruits.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 01:03 AM
4. Today there are three classes of people in the visible church: Those who have crept in unawares, and whose carnality is spreading like a cancer; Those who are thirsting for truth and who press on into the kingdom; and Those who love the truth but have not yet had their appetites stirred to a holy hunger and thirst for the deep things of God - such people when exposed to the "real deal" recognise the remedy for their soul's ills, and pursue it.


I appreciate your post. The point I 'quoted' I find extremely interesting. Your perspective is one that many who haven't dealt with the inner workings of God's Kingdom wouldn't fully understand.

I wonder what the ratio would be if we applied these three categories today? What percentage is consumed with carnality vs. the percentage who love truth but aren't driven by that love to pursue God vs. those that press their way into the flow of God's Spirit?

Again, very interesting post.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 09:25 AM
As it came up on another thread I'll post it here. It seems to fit into the context of what my original post said:
Could this generation accept the conviction preaching of an O. R. Fauss should a man arise with that kind of personality? Or would we simply turn our noses up and say, "I just don't think we need that kind of preaching anymore."

Have we stripped away the ability of good men with strong personalities to become effective in our own lives?

It would be interesting to hear more Preacher's names who have been strong in personality and in preaching. We could come up with names like...
Stoneking
Godair
Billy Cole

Then again, I don't know if we could make a sufficient list of 'new' preachers who fit into that category. I'm not sure there are many...
Mark Morgan?
Matt Maddix?

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 09:27 AM
How would Verbal Bean be received today?

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 09:28 AM
I honestly am not trying to just engage in carnal emulation here, but one thing I have lamented about long and often is the proliferation of echoes among us and the dearth of voices.

Balance is over-rated.

It is usally men who are extreme in some dimension who make things happen and get things done.

Ron
03-12-2007, 09:31 AM
Alas, those wanting more out of the Kingdom and with a desire to change their world and be the conduit for revival, are going to be those who come to an altar of sacrifice and offer themselves at the hands of God's purposes vs offering themselves at the altar of convenience.


JMHO

Nahum
03-12-2007, 09:34 AM
This generation runs to the ‘smiling’ preachers of issue-less, feel good religion. The prominent names that society pushes at us under the guise of ‘successful ministries’ are lackluster and bland in matters pertaining to spirituality. The smiling non-issue hero of Houston or the joke telling comedian of Cajun descent are spiritually bland and morally indistinguishable at best.

Whether we want to admit it or not we have to confess that, in many ways, this appetite for the non-confrontational sermonette has reached even into the sacred boundaries of Apostolic truth. Just one short scan of forums like this reveals the sad truth that there are those whose idea of a ‘preacher’ is little more than a figurehead who looks the part rather than a firebrand that preaches the message.

You know, I get so sick of this type of crud being posted by those who miss the "good ole days".

Truth is, there are many who have "guts" nowadays, and you can't stand them because they don't fit exactly into your ideology. Let someone stand and speak truthfully against a plague of legalism in our movement (at the risk of personal harm), and you would blast them from here to kingdom come.

Get real Steadfast! You don't want some truths to be spoken.
Don't cry for truth and then slap the messenger in the face when he delivers it (figuratively speaking).

It is beyond me why we cater to personality so much anyway.

Eliseus
03-12-2007, 09:48 AM
Steadfast, I am convinced that the desires of the masses do not affect one whit God's raising up of preachers of righteousness.

But those carnal desires DO affect whether an individual will receive the word of God from the one He sends to speak it.

Jesus asked the people regarding John the Baptist - "What did you go out to see? A man clothed in effeminate ("soft") clothing?"

Ezekiel had a similar problem. God told him that he was like a neat musical performer or beautiful instrument to the people - they loved to come hear his preaching but they did not RECEIVE IT INTO THEIR HEARTS. It was entertainment for them.

Eventually, the carnal reach a point where they are no longer entertained by righteous preaching and teaching. The preaching becomes an irritation to them. Finally they turn on the source of that irritation, and reject it, scoff, mock, and if possible persecute.

Jesus had the same issue - crowds came to hear him, including the scribes and Pharisees and that bunch. They found him somewhat of a spectacle. Then they got upset with him. Then they tried to turn people away from him.

Then they killed him.

Now, does the MAJORITY of the visible church world today have a heart to receive whomever God sends?

I think in general we have become selfish, so that we have itching ears. Not merely for doctrinal things that scratch our itches, but for the personalities themselves.

People want a smiley Joel Osteen. They want to hear all about the Sugar Daddy in the sky bending over backwards to bless them in the middle of all their carnality and sin.

They sure don't want to hear about the HOLY one, the JUDGE, and the PURIFIER of the church...

(Speaking in general terms here, just my personal observations.)

BUT I also know that God knows the sins of the people, and sends a Remedy in the form of men of God who preach as though they were hired directly by God and not man, whose paycheck comes straight from God and not a board or Sister Super-tither, who fear no man but God only, and who shun not to declare the whole counsel of God...

Who preach to those who need to hear God's word, whether they want to hear it or not...

God, I believe, sometimes sends preachers who are exactly what people "can't stand" to force them to deny themselves and receive truth for TRUTH'S sake, and not because "the preacher was so nice" or because of any kind of personal pleasure they may have gotten out if it.

Jesus "had no beauty that we should desire him."

John was a wild man, to all appearances.

Paul apparently had a speech impediment of some kind, he certainly had no "powerful preacher persona" or personal charisma... his "bodily presence is weak" they said...

Peter was an "ignorant, unlearned, Galillean fisherman"...

Elisha was bald in a culture that valued a full head of hair and looked upon baldness as nearly a curse...

David was a nobody in the eyes of the carnal...

On and on it goes... God chooses that which is despised by the world and the worldlings to get His job done.

And in the final analysis, it doesn't matter whether anhyone receives the man of God or not, he is commissioned to proclaim the Message of the King. Those who reject that message have their own judgement to deal with. The preacher is not sent to make anyone agree with anything, but simply to SPEAK THE TRUTH.

A preacher is a messenger, nothing more. And therefore, it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" about his message or his delivery, he doesn't work for them.

:)

SDG
03-12-2007, 09:52 AM
I enjoy the colorful personalities ... Stoneking included ... The prophets in OT were a colorful bunch too .... John the Baptist was a pariah ....

Actually I've always had a dream of publishing a brilliant and avante garde coffee table book with pictures and bios of the personalities among us ...

It would be entitled ... The Colorful Personalities of Pentecost

I think God will use whomever for His Glory.

Steadfast ... wax nostalgic ... but God is God and he will raise men ... at this hour to do His bidding.

Malvaro
03-12-2007, 10:05 AM
...
Doubtless there are many others that you could add to the list but they had one thing in common… they are all ‘preachers’ who are known by their unique personalities. It was the combination of the ‘preaching’ and personality that made them so effective!
...
My question is one that perhaps only time can answer;
* Can this generation ever again lay aside our carnal opinions and allow ‘preaching’ personalities to rise up and make a difference among the Church and the world we’re called to reach?

* Have we reached the point that our fleshly reasoning has forever neutralized preaching personalities?

* Can this generation open their hearts to new faces of those 'John the Baptist-esque' ministries that come looking outdated and disheveled to our keenly 'religious' eyes.

* Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?

I never had the opportunity to hear Bishop Morris Golder or Joe Duke... I have read two books about Verbal Bean (awesome preacher)

a) it is unlikely, as the recent generation of "preachers" have adapted themselves to become what "they" feel would most effectively make themselves marketable in as many pulpits as possible (the clone preachers).... it would be interesting to find out how many are fearful of stepping into the ministry style they have been called into for fear of being unpopular...

unfortunately, i personally feel that the days of "deep, deep" teaching ministries has passed in favor of the "feel-happy" surface messages that are all so common now days.... i long for the days when preachers weren't afraid of getting in people's business if God prompted them to teach/preach a "tough" message.... some old-time preachers can share powerful messages that make me realize how far I still have to go as a Christian...

b) once again, unlikely.... some churches have unknowingly become preacher-killers.... church folk have learned they can place their stamp of approval on the preachers they "like" by preaching with some preachers and yet sitting down on anyone who may not fit their idea of a good preacher.... the ole' fashioned "starve em out" strategy.... and noone here can deny it because we have all seen it happen, small churches and big churches alike....

c) the fact that most Church folks have established a "ministry box" of expectations would make it difficult for one to come in and shake the boat.... especially if they were young and didn't have the backing of some "big folks" behind them....

this post isn't as eloquent as what I would have wanted, but it is kinda face value of what immediately came to mind.... sorry if its a bit rambling....

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 10:17 AM
You know, I get so sick of this type of crud being posted by those who miss the "good ole days".

Truth is, there are many who have "guts" nowadays, and you can't stand them because they don't fit exactly into your ideology. Let someone stand and speak truthfully against a plague of legalism in our movement (at the risk of personal harm), and you would blast them from here to kingdom come.

Get real Steadfast! You don't want some truths to be spoken.
Don't cry for truth and then slap the messenger in the face when he delivers it (figuratively speaking).

It is beyond me why we cater to personality so much anyway.

While your post is surprisingly aggressive I don't mind engaging in a reply. First of all, I don't find it 'crud' at all but a genuine question that deserves an answer. Mine is not a quest of 'personality' but a question of what happens after men like Mahaney and Arnold pass off the scene.

Perhaps I'm not being clear in my sentiment here so I'll try again: I'm not so much speaking of 'catering to a personality' as I am speaking about the personality and traits of their particular ministry.

You seem to imply that I'm searching for the 'good old days' and nothing could be further from the truth. My pursuit is for the ability of young men to have the freedom to stand up with ministries of...
Conviction similar to O. R. Fauss.
Faith similar to that of Billy Cole.
Revelatory insight similar to Jeff Arnold.

You say that many have the 'guts' but they don't fit into my 'ideology'. First of all, perhaps you should tell us all what my ideology is! I'm relatively sure you don't know much about me but I'll allow you the latitude of elucidation should you so wish to try. The truth is that I'm more accepting of various ministries than most people I know. I want ministries to take on personality and for young men to find their niche' in the anointing.

I've encouraged many young men to pursue ministries that aren't 'popular' and tried to give them the courage to be what God chose them to be. In fact, I just finished a great revival with a young man whose Pastor asked him to find another Pastor because 'I don't believe much in those Gifts of the Spirit'. In that he was being used in an area his previous Pastor wasn't comfortable in he was asked to find someone else! By the time he got to me he was crushed and almost beyond repair. He felt an intimidation that following his ministry would disqualify him from any acceptance. That is a shame of the highest proportions!

Additionally, I marvel at how quickly you run back to the 'plague of legalism' aspect. Unfortunately, that only further makes my point in this whole thread! Could someone like a Verbal Bean get up and preach true holiness inside and out to this generation without yours being the prevailing attitude of society that now shouts "Legalism!" instead of "I repent!"

No, I'm not intimidated by the shouts of 'legalism' because, frankly, I think it's the 'abracadbra' magic word that too many use to exempt themselves from the need to listen to the very preachers I'm speaking of. It's not a matter of 'blasting' those who preach against what you call 'legalism'... I simply disregard those among them who shout 'legalism' too quickly as individuals who wish to exempt themselves from the parts of truth they no longer want.

How you aquired your specfic opinion in that regards is foreign to me in that there is virtually nothing said about standards on this entire thread. Additionally, I find it strange that you would say...Get real Steadfast! You don't want some truths to be spoken.
Don't cry for truth and then slap the messenger in the face when he delivers it (figuratively speaking).

I want ALL truth to be spoken (without exemptions) and have, in no instance, slapped any 'messenger' in the face (figuratively or otherwise). Perhaps you just misread my postings on this thread... I'm fighting FOR young, upcoming preachers to have the freedom to develop ministries with personality without the fear of someone crying things like... well... legalism... for example.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 10:19 AM
Steadfast, I am convinced that the desires of the masses do not affect one whit God's raising up of preachers of righteousness.

But those carnal desires DO affect whether an individual will receive the word of God from the one He sends to speak it.

Jesus asked the people regarding John the Baptist - "What did you go out to see? A man clothed in effeminate ("soft") clothing?"

Ezekiel had a similar problem. God told him that he was like a neat musical performer or beautiful instrument to the people - they loved to come hear his preaching but they did not RECEIVE IT INTO THEIR HEARTS. It was entertainment for them.

Eventually, the carnal reach a point where they are no longer entertained by righteous preaching and teaching. The preaching becomes an irritation to them. Finally they turn on the source of that irritation, and reject it, scoff, mock, and if possible persecute.

Jesus had the same issue - crowds came to hear him, including the scribes and Pharisees and that bunch. They found him somewhat of a spectacle. Then they got upset with him. Then they tried to turn people away from him.

Then they killed him.

Now, does the MAJORITY of the visible church world today have a heart to receive whomever God sends?

I think in general we have become selfish, so that we have itching ears. Not merely for doctrinal things that scratch our itches, but for the personalities themselves.

People want a smiley Joel Osteen. They want to hear all about the Sugar Daddy in the sky bending over backwards to bless them in the middle of all their carnality and sin.

They sure don't want to hear about the HOLY one, the JUDGE, and the PURIFIER of the church...

(Speaking in general terms here, just my personal observations.)

BUT I also know that God knows the sins of the people, and sends a Remedy in the form of men of God who preach as though they were hired directly by God and not man, whose paycheck comes straight from God and not a board or Sister Super-tither, who fear no man but God only, and who shun not to declare the whole counsel of God...

Who preach to those who need to hear God's word, whether they want to hear it or not...

God, I believe, sometimes sends preachers who are exactly what people "can't stand" to force them to deny themselves and receive truth for TRUTH'S sake, and not because "the preacher was so nice" or because of any kind of personal pleasure they may have gotten out if it.

Jesus "had no beauty that we should desire him."

John was a wild man, to all appearances.

Paul apparently had a speech impediment of some kind, he certainly had no "powerful preacher persona" or personal charisma... his "bodily presence is weak" they said...

Peter was an "ignorant, unlearned, Galillean fisherman"...

Elisha was bald in a culture that valued a full head of hair and looked upon baldness as nearly a curse...

David was a nobody in the eyes of the carnal...

On and on it goes... God chooses that which is despised by the world and the worldlings to get His job done.

And in the final analysis, it doesn't matter whether anhyone receives the man of God or not, he is commissioned to proclaim the Message of the King. Those who reject that message have their own judgement to deal with. The preacher is not sent to make anyone agree with anything, but simply to SPEAK THE TRUTH.

A preacher is a messenger, nothing more. And therefore, it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" about his message or his delivery, he doesn't work for them.

:)


Excellent.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 10:26 AM
I enjoy the colorful personalities ... Stoneking included ... The prophets in OT were a colorful bunch too .... John the Baptist was a pariah ....

Actually I've always had a dream of publishing a brilliant and avante garde coffee table book with pictures and bios of the personalities among us ...

It would be entitled ... The Colorful Personalities of Pentecost

I think God will use whomever for His Glory.

Steadfast ... wax nostalgic ... but God is God and he will raise men ... at this hour to do His bidding.

Alicea... write the book. It's needed. I'll buy the first copy!

I do believe that God is raising up men but, if we're not careful, our preconceived ideas of what they should be can short circuit good ministries.

I Pastor many 'Pastors Kids' and one of them lamented to me that he was never called to preach but expected to do so. He made a statement that haunts me to this day - especially with PK's - when he said, "Pastor, there's nothing heavier than the weight of an expectation."

I fear that we have a lot of young preachers, called of God for valuable reasons, who will never develop because of the 'weight of an expectation' this generation puts on them. I never had the opportunity to hear Bishop Morris Golder or Joe Duke... I have read two books about Verbal Bean (awesome preacher)

a) it is unlikely, as the recent generation of "preachers" have adapted themselves to become what "they" feel would most effectively make themselves marketable in as many pulpits as possible (the clone preachers).... it would be interesting to find out how many are fearful of stepping into the ministry style they have been called into for fear of being unpopular...

unfortunately, i personally feel that the days of "deep, deep" teaching ministries has passed in favor of the "feel-happy" surface messages that are all so common now days.... i long for the days when preachers weren't afraid of getting in people's business if God prompted them to teach/preach a "tough" message.... some old-time preachers can share powerful messages that make me realize how far I still have to go as a Christian...

b) once again, unlikely.... some churches have unknowingly become preacher-killers.... church folk have learned they can place their stamp of approval on the preachers they "like" by preaching with some preachers and yet sitting down on anyone who may not fit their idea of a good preacher.... the ole' fashioned "starve em out" strategy.... and noone here can deny it because we have all seen it happen, small churches and big churches alike....

c) the fact that most Church folks have established a "ministry box" of expectations would make it difficult for one to come in and shake the boat.... especially if they were young and didn't have the backing of some "big folks" behind them....

this post isn't as eloquent as what I would have wanted, but it is kinda face value of what immediately came to mind.... sorry if its a bit rambling....

Nothing wrong with the post... and a lot right with it. :praying

Annie
03-12-2007, 10:27 AM
For myself, it's not necessarily that I rebel against the preached WORD- it's the attitude in which it is delivered that I rebel against sometimes.

Men like Bro.Arnold do not appeal to me. I do not respond well to brashness and crass language- in fact, my stomach knots up when I hear it. I believe it can be attributed to my up-bringing. My father was a soft spoken man, and I never heard him speak in a crass or loud manner, never. He never made fun of anybody in the church, nor did he stoop to 'lambasting' other religious movements in the pulpit. That was not his 'style'. My pastor also, was a kind and compassionate, soft spoken man. Both of these men were strong conservatives and preached it HARD and narrow, but they did it with kindness and love in their hearts. Therefore, having not heard it in my home, nor in my home church- It never appealed to me in the pulpit.

I do, however, think highly of men like those afore mentioned- they are definately icons of Pentecost, and they DO win the lost. And that's what it's all about.

We all have our place in the Kingdom.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 10:33 AM
For myself, it's not necessarily that I rebel against the preached WORD- it's the attitude in which it is delivered that I rebel against sometimes.

Men like Bro.Arnold do not appeal to me. I do not respond well to brashness and crass language- in fact, my stomach knots up when I hear it. I believe it can be attributed to my up-bringing. My father was a soft spoken man, and I never heard him speak in a crass or loud manner, never. He never made fun of anybody in the church, nor did he stoop to 'lambasting' other religious movements in the pulpit. That was not his 'style'. My pastor also, was a kind and compassionate, soft spoken man. Both of these men were strong conservatives and preached it HARD and narrow, but they did it with kindness and love in their hearts. Therefore, having not heard it in my home, nor in my home church- It never appealed to me in the pulpit.

I do, however, think highly of men like those afore mentioned- they are definately icons of Pentecost, and they DO win the lost. And that's what it's all about.

We all have our place in the Kingdom.

I think that is a balanced view. Thanks!

SDG
03-12-2007, 10:38 AM
Alicea... write the book. It's needed. I'll buy the first copy!

I do believe that God is raising up men but, if we're not careful, our preconceived ideas of what they should be can short circuit good ministries.

I Pastor many 'Pastors Kids' and one of them lamented to me that he was never called to preach but expected to do so. He made a statement that haunts me to this day - especially with PK's - when he said, "Pastor, there's nothing heavier than the weight of an expectation."

I fear that we have a lot of young preachers, called of God for valuable reasons, who will never develop because of the 'weight of an expectation' this generation puts on them.

Nothing wrong with the post... and a lot right with it. :praying

I can echo the word's of this PK ... Expectation can be a heavy burden .... yet I have learned that God has given me gifts that perhaps may not be what others expected ... but I will use them for the Glory of my King.

The Body needs to start exploring the many facets of ministry .... IMHO

Nahum
03-12-2007, 10:42 AM
While your post is surprisingly aggressive I don't mind engaging in a reply. First of all, I don't find it 'crud' at all but a genuine question that deserves an answer. Mine is not a quest of 'personality' but a question of what happens after men like Mahaney and Arnold pass off the scene.

Perhaps I'm not being clear in my sentiment here so I'll try again: I'm not so much speaking of 'catering to a personality' as I am speaking about the personality and traits of their particular ministry.

You seem to imply that I'm searching for the 'good old days' and nothing could be further from the truth. My pursuit is for the ability of young men to have the freedom to stand up with ministries of...
Conviction similar to O. R. Fauss.
Faith similar to that of Billy Cole.
Revelatory insight similar to Jeff Arnold.

You say that many have the 'guts' but they don't fit into my 'ideology'. First of all, perhaps you should tell us all what my ideology is! I'm relatively sure you don't know much about me but I'll allow you the latitude of elucidation should you so wish to try. The truth is that I'm more accepting of various ministries than most people I know. I want ministries to take on personality and for young men to find their niche' in the anointing.

I've encouraged many young men to pursue ministries that aren't 'popular' and tried to give them the courage to be what God chose them to be. In fact, I just finished a great revival with a young man whose Pastor asked him to find another Pastor because 'I don't believe much in those Gifts of the Spirit'. In that he was being used in an area his previous Pastor wasn't comfortable in he was asked to find someone else! By the time he got to me he was crushed and almost beyond repair. He felt an intimidation that following his ministry would disqualify him from any acceptance. That is a shame of the highest proportions!

Additionally, I marvel at how quickly you run back to the 'plague of legalism' aspect. Unfortunately, that only further makes my point in this whole thread! Could someone like a Verbal Bean get up and preach true holiness inside and out to this generation without yours being the prevailing attitude of society that now shouts "Legalism!" instead of "I repent!"

No, I'm not intimidated by the shouts of 'legalism' because, frankly, I think it's the 'abracadbra' magic word that too many use to exempt themselves from the need to listen to the very preachers I'm speaking of. It's not a matter of 'blasting' those who preach against what you call 'legalism'... I simply disregard those among them who shout 'legalism' too quickly as individuals who wish to exempt themselves from the parts of truth they no longer want.

How you aquired your specfic opinion in that regards is foreign to me in that there is virtually nothing said about standards on this entire thread. Additionally, I find it strange that you would say...

I want ALL truth to be spoken (without exemptions) and have, in no instance, slapped any 'messenger' in the face (figuratively or otherwise). Perhaps you just misread my postings on this thread... I'm fighting FOR young, upcoming preachers to have the freedom to develop ministries with personality without the fear of someone crying things like... well... legalism... for example.


You are correct in saying we do not know each other. I am operating from a perspective gleaned from discussions on NFCF and Wordshare. There is this constant drum beating regarding a supposed "lack of leadership" among the younger generation. Far too often I find it is because some won't get out of the way and let them. They are guilted into inactivity.

Perhaps I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Would you be accomodating of a young minister developing a television ministry?

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 10:48 AM
You are correct in saying we do not know each other. I am operating from a perspective gleaned from discussions on NFCF and Wordshare. There is this constant drum beating regarding a supposed "lack of leadership" among the younger generation. Far too often I find it is because some won't get out of the way and let them. They are guilted into inactivity.

Perhaps I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Would you be accomodating of a young minister developing a television ministry?

PP, you know this would violate a deeply held personal conviction.

The Elder isn't speaking of ministries that violate principle or conviction.

This is an unfair example.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 10:49 AM
I can echo the word's of this PK ... Expectation can be a heavy burden .... yet I have learned that God has given me gifts that perhaps may not be what others expected ... but I will use them for the Glory of my King.

The Body needs to start exploring the many facets of ministry .... IMHO

A sad fact, Dan: I have been the Pastor to many 'PK's'... At one point I had 12 different Pastor's Kids in my Church at one time and all but THREE I prayed through from a backslidden condition.

Their circumstances are unique and, in my own opinion, we don't do enough to equip them to face those circumstances.

The man I spoke of earlier (who spoke of the weight of an expectation) went on to Pastor a Church, struggled with keeping it afloat, lost his wife to another man and saw his family torn apart. We healed him back into a desire to be used of God but NOT back into a preaching ministry. It was then, as a broken young man, that he spoke to me about the horrible weight of an expectation.

The weight of an expectation is a horrible thing to put on individuals that are not 'called' to the thing we 'expect' of them.

Whole Hearted
03-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Many godly people don't want to go where some of the younger one want to take them. I want to go to heaven, and you can only get there on the STRAIGHT AND NARROW.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 10:52 AM
PP, you know this would violate a deeply held personal conviction.

The Elder isn't speaking of ministries that violate principle or conviction.

This is an unfair example.

Precisely.

Annie
03-12-2007, 10:54 AM
Steadfast, I am convinced that the desires of the masses do not affect one whit God's raising up of preachers of righteousness.

But those carnal desires DO affect whether an individual will receive the word of God from the one He sends to speak it.

Jesus asked the people regarding John the Baptist - "What did you go out to see? A man clothed in effeminate ("soft") clothing?"

Ezekiel had a similar problem. God told him that he was like a neat musical performer or beautiful instrument to the people - they loved to come hear his preaching but they did not RECEIVE IT INTO THEIR HEARTS. It was entertainment for them.

Eventually, the carnal reach a point where they are no longer entertained by righteous preaching and teaching. The preaching becomes an irritation to them. Finally they turn on the source of that irritation, and reject it, scoff, mock, and if possible persecute.

Jesus had the same issue - crowds came to hear him, including the scribes and Pharisees and that bunch. They found him somewhat of a spectacle. Then they got upset with him. Then they tried to turn people away from him.

Then they killed him.

Now, does the MAJORITY of the visible church world today have a heart to receive whomever God sends?

I think in general we have become selfish, so that we have itching ears. Not merely for doctrinal things that scratch our itches, but for the personalities themselves.

People want a smiley Joel Osteen. They want to hear all about the Sugar Daddy in the sky bending over backwards to bless them in the middle of all their carnality and sin.

They sure don't want to hear about the HOLY one, the JUDGE, and the PURIFIER of the church...

(Speaking in general terms here, just my personal observations.)

BUT I also know that God knows the sins of the people, and sends a Remedy in the form of men of God who preach as though they were hired directly by God and not man, whose paycheck comes straight from God and not a board or Sister Super-tither, who fear no man but God only, and who shun not to declare the whole counsel of God...

Who preach to those who need to hear God's word, whether they want to hear it or not...

God, I believe, sometimes sends preachers who are exactly what people "can't stand" to force them to deny themselves and receive truth for TRUTH'S sake, and not because "the preacher was so nice" or because of any kind of personal pleasure they may have gotten out if it.

Jesus "had no beauty that we should desire him."

John was a wild man, to all appearances.

Paul apparently had a speech impediment of some kind, he certainly had no "powerful preacher persona" or personal charisma... his "bodily presence is weak" they said...

Peter was an "ignorant, unlearned, Galillean fisherman"...

Elisha was bald in a culture that valued a full head of hair and looked upon baldness as nearly a curse...

David was a nobody in the eyes of the carnal...

On and on it goes... God chooses that which is despised by the world and the worldlings to get His job done.

And in the final analysis, it doesn't matter whether anhyone receives the man of God or not, he is commissioned to proclaim the Message of the King. Those who reject that message have their own judgement to deal with. The preacher is not sent to make anyone agree with anything, but simply to SPEAK THE TRUTH.

A preacher is a messenger, nothing more. And therefore, it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" about his message or his delivery, he doesn't work for them.

:)


Let me get this straight. Are you saying that one cannot reject the method of the messenger without rejecting the message????

Are the method and the message one and the same??????? Help me here.

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 10:55 AM
You are correct in saying we do not know each other. I am operating from a perspective gleaned from discussions on NFCF and Wordshare. There is this constant drum beating regarding a supposed "lack of leadership" among the younger generation. Far too often I find it is because some won't get out of the way and let them. They are guilted into inactivity.

Perhaps I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Would you be accomodating of a young minister developing a television ministry?

I would not presume to speak for Steadfast, but I believe he is speaking more of young men being free not to fall into the expected modes that just tickle ears, preach shallow sermons on praise and encouragement, and avoid any rocking of the boat.

The tv thing you mentioned is a violation of a core value for some of us.

That makes it an unfair example.

Malvaro
03-12-2007, 10:56 AM
Many godly people don't want to go where some of the younger one want to take them. I want to go to heaven, and you can only get there on the STRAIGHT AND NARROW.

although I may disagree with some of the young folks of my generation and the direction they have chosen, it is unfair to bunch all the younger people together as not willing to take the way of ole' fashioned principles....

there are still some that are walking that path....

Nahum
03-12-2007, 10:56 AM
Many godly people don't want to go where some of the younger one want to take them. I want to go to heaven, and you can only get there on the STRAIGHT AND NARROW.


Here it is Steadfast.

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 10:58 AM
Here it is Steadfast.

I don't think any man ought to have to compromise core values to be open to allowing men to be individuals.

There is a lot of room on the straight and narrow for ministries to develop that are voices and not just echoes.

Nahum
03-12-2007, 10:59 AM
I would not presume to speak for Steadfast, but I believe he is speaking more of young men being free not to fall into the expected modes that just tickle ears, preach shallow sermons on praise and encouragement, and avoid any rocking of the boat.

The tv thing you mentioned is a violation of a core value for some of us.

That makes it an unfair example.

Okay, let me rephrase.

What if the message for this hour is that God is wanting the church to empower a generation of young leaders instead of placing obstacles in their way?

What if that message includes the idea that "some" of our most respected leaders are withholding the flow because of legalistic spirits?

Would that type of preaching be received or discarded as rebellious?

Nahum
03-12-2007, 11:03 AM
I don't think any man ought to have to compromise core values to be open to allowing men to be individuals.

There is a lot of room on the straight and narrow for ministries to develop that are voices and not just echoes.


I agree, but I think the attitude of the "younger crowd's gonna lead us to Hell" is self-defeating.

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 11:04 AM
Okay, let me rephrase.

What if the message for this hour is that God is wanting the church to empower a generation of young leaders instead of placing obstacles in their way?

What if that message includes the idea that "some" of our most respected leaders are withholding the flow because of legalistic spirits?

Would that type of preaching be received or discarded as rebellious?

If it was in a spirit of "entreat him as a father," and not rebuking of an elder by a anovice, which is Unscriptural, then I think it would be all right.

I believe in an open pulpit, so long as Scriptural lines are not crossed.

Carpenter
03-12-2007, 11:04 AM
Ugh, I hope this doesn't turn into another TV discussion, I kind of like the initial premise of the thread.

I believe what has been said here is accurate, however one thing plaguing the current generation of ministers are two daunting obstacles.

One is the natural progression of emulation. I have seen more preachers trying to emulate the ministers of the past, trying to ride the coat-tails of those who have paved the way, and paid their dues.

Secondly, and I believe this is the biggest obstacle to fulfilling a true anointing, is the two-fold desire to develop new-fangled programs in which the preacher can take the credit for design. There have been minister after minister come through bringing their 12 Tribe concept of church growth, prayer seminars to enhance church growth and revival, the 12 step program for a closer walk with God, labeling revivals as "crusades" attaching their names to it, plays, poetry, costumes, army men a broken down volkswagon and the apocalypse, the grim reaper, lights camera ACTION! ...yada yada yada.

While the intentions may be fantastic, there is an element of self promotion involved that if it takes root, it means more dates for preaching, possibly a book, a CD, and money money money, name building, name building, LEGACY!

I am not saying this is the case across the board, throughout the org there are great men of God out there who understand the popular culture, the religious culture and climate of the church and they have realized there is a need for change in their approach and attitude. These are the men I wouldn't hesitate for one minute considering to be my pastor.

I would say the last time someone had me shaking in my boots was O.R. Fauss at Colorado Youth Camp in 1985.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:04 AM
Many godly people don't want to go where some of the younger one want to take them. I want to go to heaven, and you can only get there on the STRAIGHT AND NARROW.

although I may disagree with some of the young folks of my generation and the direction they have chosen, it is unfair to bunch all the younger people together as not willing to take the way of ole' fashioned principles....

there are still some that are walking that path....

In all fairness, WholeHearted, you did say 'some' of the younger ones. However, I have to agree with Malvaro on this one... we DO have some young men with convictions and it's not fair to lump them all together as having no convictions.

Whole Hearted
03-12-2007, 11:04 AM
I don't think any man ought to have to compromise core values to be open to allowing men to be individuals.

There is a lot of room on the straight and narrow for ministries to develop that are voices and not just echoes.

:ty

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 11:05 AM
I agree, but I think the attitude of the "younger crowd's gonna lead us to Hell" is self-defeating.

I don't care for a broad brush indictment of young preachers either.

After all, I am in my mid thirties, still somewhere between grass and hay. :)

Carpenter
03-12-2007, 11:08 AM
I don't care for a broad brush indictment of young preachers either.

After all, I am in my mid thirties, still somewhere between grass and hay. :)

So what of the gray hair my friend? You are younger than me by a year or two and I only have one or two gray ones popping out of my nose. :heeheehee

Whole Hearted
03-12-2007, 11:08 AM
In all fairness, WholeHearted, you did say 'some' of the younger ones. However, I have to agree with Malvaro on this one... we DO have some young men with convictions and it's not fair to lump them all together as having no convictions.

I agree, I didn't say all, I said some. I have three young men under 30 who are fine preachers and preach it straight.

But we all know that there are many who would lead us down a road of carnality and worldiness, with the idea that this will reach the world.

The answer is not to become like the but to win them that they may become like the Lord.

Nahum
03-12-2007, 11:10 AM
I agree, I didn't say all. I have three young men under 30 who are fine preachers and preach it straight.

But we all know that there are many who would lead us down a road of carnality and worldiness, with the idea that this will reach the world.

The answer is not to become like the but to win them that they may become like the Lord.

Sheesh WH, that carnality exists in every generation.

Carpenter
03-12-2007, 11:11 AM
I agree, I didn't say all. I have three young men under 30 who are fine preachers and preach it straight.

But we all know that there are many who would lead us down a road of carnality and worldiness, with the idea that this will reach the world.

The answer is not to become like the but to win them that they may become like the Lord.

Maybe it is because I am getting older, but I find it difficult for a fuzzy faced preacher telling me how to overcome the hardships of life. I kind of feel like I am listening to a woman preaching when a young, single, whipper snapper gets up there and begins telling me, and I have lived for God longer than they have been on the earth, that I need to shape up and get right!

:slaphappy

Nahum
03-12-2007, 11:13 AM
There IS a surprising lack of young voices throughout our movement.

I can't name very many, maybe two, who are household names.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:15 AM
I agree, but I think the attitude of the "younger crowd's gonna lead us to Hell" is self-defeating.

To this we agree wholeheartedly... (pardon the pun).

Whole Hearted
03-12-2007, 11:18 AM
Again I did not say all, but I have meet my share who want to take us a different direction. I for one and the church I am privileged to pastor aren't going with them.

Thank God for the good young preachers we have. They are young and going in the right direction.


We are a church on the move in the RIGHT direction.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:19 AM
Ugh, I hope this doesn't turn into another TV discussion, I kind of like the initial premise of the thread.

I believe what has been said here is accurate, however one thing plaguing the current generation of ministers are two daunting obstacles.

One is the natural progression of emulation. I have seen more preachers trying to emulate the ministers of the past, trying to ride the coat-tails of those who have paved the way, and paid their dues.

Secondly, and I believe this is the biggest obstacle to fulfilling a true anointing, is the two-fold desire to develop new-fangled programs in which the preacher can take the credit for design. There have been minister after minister come through bringing their 12 Tribe concept of church growth, prayer seminars to enhance church growth and revival, the 12 step program for a closer walk with God, labeling revivals as "crusades" attaching their names to it, plays, poetry, costumes, army men a broken down volkswagon and the apocalypse, the grim reaper, lights camera ACTION! ...yada yada yada.

While the intentions may be fantastic, there is an element of self promotion involved that if it takes root, it means more dates for preaching, possibly a book, a CD, and money money money, name building, name building, LEGACY!

I am not saying this is the case across the board, throughout the org there are great men of God out there who understand the popular culture, the religious culture and climate of the church and they have realized there is a need for change in their approach and attitude. These are the men I wouldn't hesitate for one minute considering to be my pastor.

I would say the last time someone had me shaking in my boots was O.R. Fauss at Colorado Youth Camp in 1985.

Carp, you and I may not agree on everything but you have no idea how much I agree with this post.

I applaud the truth of this post.

Ron
03-12-2007, 11:19 AM
I have heard some pray and expect of their son/daughter to be called or marry a preacher etc.

I leave that bit to God.

I only ask that they be saved whether they are preacher/preacher's wives, or good old saints.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:21 AM
Maybe it is because I am getting older, but I find it difficult for a fuzzy faced preacher telling me how to overcome the hardships of life. I kind of feel like I am listening to a woman preaching when a young, single, whipper snapper gets up there and begins telling me, and I have lived for God longer than they have been on the earth, that I need to shape up and get right!

:slaphappy

:killinme

Rhymis
03-12-2007, 11:23 AM
Asking this bunch (for the most part) about preachers is like asking frogs about igloos. :)

Carpenter
03-12-2007, 11:28 AM
Asking this bunch (for the most part) about preachers is like asking frogs about igloos. :)

You think there is merit in asking a frog questions about igloos?

hmmm....

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:36 AM
Asking this bunch (for the most part) about preachers is like asking frogs about igloos. :)

Now THAT is funny!

:killinme :heeheehee :killinme :heeheehee :killinme

revrandy
03-12-2007, 11:41 AM
there is a term I used elsewhere and it's

Marketing God...

They have relegated the Supernatural to shameless self promotion imo... and I think the majority of folks are seeing the light concerning these guys...

Preaching humility but having None....

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:45 AM
Ugh, I hope this doesn't turn into another TV discussion, I kind of like the initial premise of the thread.

I believe what has been said here is accurate, however one thing plaguing the current generation of ministers are two daunting obstacles.

One is the natural progression of emulation. I have seen more preachers trying to emulate the ministers of the past, trying to ride the coat-tails of those who have paved the way, and paid their dues.

Secondly, and I believe this is the biggest obstacle to fulfilling a true anointing, is the two-fold desire to develop new-fangled programs in which the preacher can take the credit for design. There have been minister after minister come through bringing their 12 Tribe concept of church growth, prayer seminars to enhance church growth and revival, the 12 step program for a closer walk with God, labeling revivals as "crusades" attaching their names to it, plays, poetry, costumes, army men a broken down volkswagon and the apocalypse, the grim reaper, lights camera ACTION! ...yada yada yada.

While the intentions may be fantastic, there is an element of self promotion involved that if it takes root, it means more dates for preaching, possibly a book, a CD, and money money money, name building, name building, LEGACY!

I am not saying this is the case across the board, throughout the org there are great men of God out there who understand the popular culture, the religious culture and climate of the church and they have realized there is a need for change in their approach and attitude. These are the men I wouldn't hesitate for one minute considering to be my pastor.

I would say the last time someone had me shaking in my boots was O.R. Fauss at Colorado Youth Camp in 1985.

On second thought... I think the highlighted part of this post should be a thread of it's own. Why do we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things?

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:46 AM
there is a term I used elsewhere and it's

Marketing God...

They have relegated the Supernatural to shameless self promotion imo... and I think the majority of folks are seeing the light concerning these guys...

Preaching humility but having None....

Truth

Carpenter
03-12-2007, 11:47 AM
On second thought... I think the highlighted part of this post should be a thread of it's own. Why do we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things?

Go ahead and start it, people take you more seriously than they do me in these regards! :slaphappy

rgcraig
03-12-2007, 11:48 AM
Go ahead and start it, people take you more seriously than they do me in these regards! :slaphappy

Sad isn't it? But, it's like everyone has a preconceived idea of why someone starts a thread or asks a question and they can't read it for what it is.

Annie
03-12-2007, 11:49 AM
Go ahead and start it, people take you more seriously than they do me in these regards! :slaphappy


Why IS that??? Cuz they think you are a 'lily-livered liberal'???? LOL

Annie
03-12-2007, 11:52 AM
Go ahead and start it, people take you more seriously than they do me in these regards! :slaphappy


You know, as a saint in the pew, I feel that way a lot. If you're a preacher, folks will hang on to every word- but, a lowly saint has no merit, and thus cannot post with the same level of intelligence or experience.

No one has done anything to make me fell that way- it's just ME. :dunno

Malvaro
03-12-2007, 12:12 PM
You know, as a saint in the pew, I feel that way a lot. If you're a preacher, folks will hang on to every word- but, a lowly saint has no merit, and thus cannot post with the same level of intelligence or experience.

No one has done anything to make me fell that way- it's just ME. :dunno

through the years I have known some POWERFUL saints of God and even though they may not have a title, I would respect their words as much as I would any preacher....

SDG
03-12-2007, 12:14 PM
through the years I have known some POWERFUL saints of God and even though they may not have a title, I would respect their words as much as I would any preacher....

Me too... Malvaro .... these elders are void of all the theatrics and are valuable sources to my life.

Ron
03-12-2007, 12:15 PM
through the years I have known some POWERFUL saints of God and even though they may not have a title, I would respect their words as much as I would any preacher....

So true.

Annie
03-12-2007, 12:16 PM
through the years I have known some POWERFUL saints of God and even though they may not have a title, I would respect their words as much as I would any preacher....

Brother...I have too!!!! They are the first ones I would call for prayer- they know how to touch the throne room!!!

Malvaro
03-12-2007, 12:19 PM
through the years I have known some POWERFUL saints of God and even though they may not have a title, I would respect their words as much as I would any preacher....

I seem to recall a dear lady, whom was known as a prophetess, from LA that was always around Bro Frasier (family?) and she was respected by all that knew her.... she was blind but I remember once she sang with the choir at Bro Crafts old church on (Robinson Rd?) and God's glory just fell on that place....

i've heard of stories when God would give her a message and tell her to pick up the phone and dial a number and not knowing who it was would dial it and tell the person what God told her..... unknown to her it was a minister in need of encouragement and confirmation of direction.... i remember a few other cool stories about her.... I don't know if shes still alive, as she would be in her 90's by now....

Ron
03-12-2007, 12:21 PM
You know, as a saint in the pew, I feel that way a lot. If you're a preacher, folks will hang on to every word- but, a lowly saint has no merit, and thus cannot post with the same level of intelligence or experience.

No one has done anything to make me fell that way- it's just ME. :dunno

You know, we had prayer and a little devotion on Saturday morning about 10 yrs ago.
There was a SS teacher who was going to give the devotion.
She, outside of SS teacher has no titles, and I had to confess, I didn't come there to be ministered to as to support her.

When she gave the devotion my jaw dropped.


God was using her to speak to me.
I haven't made the same mistake.

God can use anybody.

Malvaro
03-12-2007, 12:25 PM
God was using her to speak to me.
I haven't made the same mistake.

God can use anybody.

Amen!!! God can even use Thad....

Annie
03-12-2007, 12:26 PM
You know, we had prayer and a little devotion on Saturday morning about 10 yrs ago.
There was a SS teacher who was going to give the devotion.
She, outside of SS teacher has no titles, and I had to confess, I didn't come there to be ministered to as to support her.

When she gave the devotion my jaw dropped.


God was using her to speak to me.
I haven't made the same mistake.

God can use anybody.


We had this very quiet, retiring sort of guy in our church- very devoted to God. Imagine the saints' surprise when he held a Seminar at the local library teaching on the End Times. He now has a 30 minute weekly broadcast on our local radio station... awesome teacher!!! He has won more folks through Home Bible Studies than anyone I know, personally.

Does he claim to be a god-called preacher? Nope.

Amazing. The title doesn't matter- the proof is in the puddin'...*smile*

Carpenter
03-12-2007, 12:34 PM
You know, as a saint in the pew, I feel that way a lot. If you're a preacher, folks will hang on to every word- but, a lowly saint has no merit, and thus cannot post with the same level of intelligence or experience.

No one has done anything to make me fell that way- it's just ME. :dunno

Naah, don't feel that way. Like you said, people perceive me as being a greasy gracer, compromising, liberal, but as long as they don't call me backslidden, I'm fine. :D

I did hear a preacher one time refer to a lady who did something dynamic, I think she must have prayed for someone and they were healed, the preacher said..."She was just a NOBODY saint..." I checked to make sure that I heard it correctly...I did.

Rhymis
03-12-2007, 12:41 PM
Naah, don't feel that way. Like you said, people perceive me as being a greasy gracer, compromising, liberal, but as long as they don't call me backslidden, I'm fine. :D

I did hear a preacher one time refer to a lady who did something dynamic, I think she must have prayed for someone and they were healed, the preacher said..."She was just a NOBODY saint..." I checked to make sure that I heard it correctly...I did.


You don't know nothing. When a preacher says a "NO_BODY" saint he means -- a SPIRIT saint. Man, get a clue! :bliss

Ron
03-12-2007, 12:42 PM
Naah, don't feel that way. Like you said, people perceive me as being a greasy gracer, compromising, liberal, but as long as they don't call me backslidden, I'm fine. :D

I did hear a preacher one time refer to a lady who did something dynamic, I think she must have prayed for someone and they were healed, the preacher said..."She was just a NOBODY saint..." I checked to make sure that I heard it correctly...I did.

I don't think you are Greasy at all!:D

Esther
03-12-2007, 01:16 PM
I honestly am not trying to just engage in carnal emulation here, but one thing I have lamented about long and often is the proliferation of echoes among us and the dearth of voices.

Balance is over-rated.

It is usally men who are extreme in some dimension who make things happen and get things done.

I don't see where balance is a part of this?

Being sold out to Jesus in not being out of balance to me.

Not sure what you mean here???

CC1
03-12-2007, 01:30 PM
Steadfast,

I just have a few minutes and have only had time to read your initial post on this thread.

I think there is always room for "personalities" and that we all enjoy hearing men who make the gospel message interesting and present it in ways that stick with us.

I just don't think being "distinctive" is an excuse for boorish behaviour as some do. I am amused when I continually read where preachers speaking about an elder (usually ultra cons) will mention how Bro. So and So was so wonderful and kind but usually thought of as being gruff or mean.

As I have mentioned before I do think that the traits that make some preachers very successful also have a negative side that often manifests itself also.

The same stubborness or perserverance that makes a man continue on through disappointments and setbacks can also manifest itself in ways that do not reflect well on him.

I think we all, not just preachers, have to recognize those traits in us that are our achiles heel and watch out for them.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 03:21 PM
You mentioned O. R. Fauss - the master of conviction preaching - in a prior post. I'm actually listening to a CD of him preaching right now that my son has blaring from the back room.

I wonder if the general population of posters here would accept a young version of a Bro. Fauss whose 'ministry distinctives' were messages heavy on conviction? Could this generation really accept that kind of commitment preaching from someone who would rise among us these days?

It would be interesting to see what kind of answers we would get if folks would be honest.
:dunno

Felicity
03-12-2007, 04:06 PM
One of the pastors I loved most was very rough around the edges and probably offended many with finer sensibilities perhaps. He was an original. He was also very much loved and was a successful and effective pastor. He prayed hundreds through to the Holy Ghost.

His name was C.B. Dudley. There never was and never will be another like him! :)

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 04:47 PM
One of the pastors I loved most was very rough around the edges and probably offended many with finer sensibilities perhaps. He was an original. He was also very much loved and was a successful and effective pastor. He prayed hundreds through to the Holy Ghost.

His name was C.B. Dudley. There never was and never will be another like him! :)

He definitely fit the mould Steadfast is talking about in this thread.

C.A. nelson was another.

Rhymis
03-12-2007, 05:33 PM
Some of these folk here - Reminds me of them Jews who kept whitewashing the dead prophets tombs and stoning the living ones......... : :bliss

Ron
03-12-2007, 05:39 PM
One of the pastors I loved most was very rough around the edges and probably offended many with finer sensibilities perhaps. He was an original. He was also very much loved and was a successful and effective pastor. He prayed hundreds through to the Holy Ghost.

His name was C.B. Dudley. There never was and never will be another like him! :)

As close to a Prophet as Canada ever had.

Amen.

Felicity
03-12-2007, 05:51 PM
As close to a Prophet as Canada ever had.

Amen.He loved me. He was my surrogate pastor when I was away from home ... which I was a lot in my teens visiting with friends (and dating boys - lol) in the little village where he pastored. He watched out for me and prayed for me, believed in me and saw something in me that set me apart - so he said anyhow. :)

I remember stepping into the church there (the doors were always open) many times and hearing him praying. I visited in their home with my friend on occasion.

He had this wonderful effective way of praying people through to the Holy Ghost. My husband used to follow him around in the prayer room observing him and praying that the same anointing he had for praying with people to receive the HG would fall on him.

He taught us in Bible School as well and I loved it when he'd look down at me through his glasses perched on the end of his nose and make some remark with eyes twinkling, head shaking and finger wagging. LOL. :)

He was often called "The Man From the Miramichi" and his bio (in part) has been recorded more than once by OP authors.

Ron
03-12-2007, 05:57 PM
He loved me. He was my surrogate pastor when I was away from home ... which I was a lot in my teens visiting with friends (and dating boys - lol) in the little village where he pastored. He watched out for me and prayed for me, believed in me and saw something in me that set me apart - so he said anyhow. :)

I remember stepping into the church there (the doors were always open) many times and hearing him praying. I visited in their home with my friend on occasion.

He had this wonderful effective way of praying people through to the Holy Ghost. My husband used to follow him around in the prayer room observing him and praying that the same anointing he had for praying with people to receive the HG would fall on him.

He taught us in Bible School as well and I loved it when he'd look down at me through his glasses perched on the end of his nose and make some remark with eyes twinkling, head shaking and finger wagging. LOL. :)

He was often called "The Man From the Miramichi" and his bio (in part) has been recorded more than once by OP authors.


That is neat. While not having met him myself, I heard many stories over the years from different ministers.

He was a man who walked with God.

Coonskinner
03-12-2007, 06:03 PM
The topic raised here has been one that has concerned me, as a young whippersnapper, for some time.

I am afraid there is an environment among us that has led to there being a lot of echoes and not too many voices.

We are a generation that would rather be in a herd than to endure the times of loneliness and isolation that it takes for God to craft a truly unique ministry.

A passage that has long been dear to me, and has been the launching pad for one of my favorite messages is this one:


Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.


Jer 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

There are times that the Lord will not share His man with anyone. These times when the Spirit calls you apart are invaluable.

We have a lot of young people who love to dance and worship around the altars when there is a crowd to be a part of, but who aren't as excited about the lonely night watches of solitary prayer meetings.

I remember when I was a youngster going to my first Family Camp at the Oklahoma Camp grounds...

Buck Treadway was preaching the night services, and I was so heavily impacted that I couldn't bear to go out and fellowship with my friends. the night guards ran me out of the tabernacle almost every night that week sometime after 1:00 AM because I found a corner to pray in after everybody left.

But I was accustomed to going into the woods for long seasons alone to pray. There weren't many other kids around I could spend time with where i lived.

Steve Epley
03-12-2007, 06:15 PM
Personalities:
C. W. Shew
M. E. Burr
R. C. Cavaness
Bill Bowman
Carl Ballesterio
H. B. Morgan
C. P. Williams
A. L. O'Brien
William Cranford
Jimmy Starr Davis
These guys were not cookie cutter preachers.

Whole Hearted
03-12-2007, 06:20 PM
Personalities:
C. W. Shew
M. E. Burr
R. C. Cavaness
Bill Bowman
Carl Ballesterio
H. B. Morgan
C. P. Williams
A. L. O'Brien
William Cranford
Jimmy Starr Davis
These guys were not cookie cutter preachers.

I wish we had some more like them today.

LadyChocolate
03-12-2007, 06:20 PM
Personalities:
C. W. Shew
M. E. Burr
R. C. Cavaness
Bill Bowman
Carl Ballesterio
H. B. Morgan
C. P. Williams
A. L. O'Brien
William Cranford
Jimmy Starr Davis
These guys were not cookie cutter preachers.

Is that Bill Bowman from north carolina
and c.p. willliams from ocala, florida?>???

Steve Epley
03-12-2007, 06:22 PM
Is that Bill Bowman from north carolina
and c.p. willliams from ocala, florida?>???

Yes Elder Bowman was from High Point, NC but C.P. Williams was from Tulsa, Ok.

LadyChocolate
03-12-2007, 06:23 PM
Yes Elder Bowman was from High Point, NC but C.P. Williams was from Tulsa, Ok.

tragic death....

Okay, I know cp williams in ocala...... but my husband knows bro williams in tulsa ok....

Barb
03-12-2007, 07:00 PM
The topic raised here has been one that has concerned me, as a young whippersnapper, for some time.

I am afraid there is an environment among us that has led to there being a lot of echoes and not too many voices.

We are a generation that would rather be in a herd than to endure the times of loneliness and isolation that it takes for God to craft a truly unique ministry.

A passage that has long been dear to me, and has been the launching pad for one of my favorite messages is this one:


Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.


Jer 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

There are times that the Lord will not share His man with anyone. These times when the Spirit calls you apart are invaluable.

We have a lot of young people who love to dance and worship around the altars when there is a crowd to be a part of, but who aren't as excited about the lonely night watches of solitary prayer meetings.

I remember when I was a youngster going to my first Family Camp at the Oklahoma Camp grounds...

Buck Treadway was preaching the night services, and I was so heavily impacted that I couldn't bear to go out and fellowship with my friends. the night guards ran me out of the tabernacle almost every night that week sometime after 1:00 AM because I found a corner to pray in after everybody left.

But I was accustomed to going into the woods for long seasons alone to pray. There weren't many other kids around I could spend time with where i lived.

Elder, at the time you posted this, I was in conversation with a precious Saint of God and we were speaking the same words you posted here.

This is not a night of entertainment and filling time...I am convinced God is speaking tonight.

Thank you, CS, for posting this confirmation and words of sound wisdom...:sad

Felicity
03-12-2007, 08:40 PM
The topic raised here has been one that has concerned me, as a young whippersnapper, for some time.

I am afraid there is an environment among us that has led to there being a lot of echoes and not too many voices.

We are a generation that would rather be in a herd than to endure the times of loneliness and isolation that it takes for God to craft a truly unique ministry.

A passage that has long been dear to me, and has been the launching pad for one of my favorite messages is this one:


Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.


Jer 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

There are times that the Lord will not share His man with anyone. These times when the Spirit calls you apart are invaluable.

We have a lot of young people who love to dance and worship around the altars when there is a crowd to be a part of, but who aren't as excited about the lonely night watches of solitary prayer meetings.

I remember when I was a youngster going to my first Family Camp at the Oklahoma Camp grounds...

Buck Treadway was preaching the night services, and I was so heavily impacted that I couldn't bear to go out and fellowship with my friends. the night guards ran me out of the tabernacle almost every night that week sometime after 1:00 AM because I found a corner to pray in after everybody left.

But I was accustomed to going into the woods for long seasons alone to pray. There weren't many other kids around I could spend time with where i lived.I can so identify with this post. :) I wasn't chased out of the prayer room at camp meeting but I was definitely one of the few young people there when most had left.

At church I was most always the last one off my knees and I'd leave the church to walk home service after service because my family had already left and I'd walk home still talking to God and talking in tongues with the tears running down my face.

In Bible School it was the same thing. Almost always the last one off my knees.

I've often wondered why this great desire and great NEED to pray when it seemed others around me didn't have the same desire, but I do know that my roots went deep - real deep as a result - and I came to know God and to learn how to intercede and tap into the Spirit in a way I wouldn't have otherwise.

The only way we can get to know and understand God to any depth at all is by spending time in His presence. We learn yieldedness and submission as a result and are less apt to rebel but yearn to please Him and acquiesce to His demands, commands and will instead.

Ron
03-12-2007, 08:45 PM
So true. When I was a young person in Church I was one of the first ones into worship and last ones to finish.
I very often would spend many nights alone with god.

Then a family comes along, and all of a sudden there are competing demands on my time.

Not easy to do but Communing with the king is worth it.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 08:58 PM
I'm blessed to see the kind of responses that my inquiry has garnered.

Some key attributes, in my opinion, of those who have 'personality' to their preaching are...
* A fear of God more than a fear of the people.
* A desire to do something for God whether they get recognition for it or not.
* It genuinely is a passion and not just a profession.

One thing that most Saints (and some so called 'preachers') fail to consider as it pertains to 'preaching' personalities is the 'solitude' that real ministry seems to demand. A few years ago I was walking in the hall of a General Conference with my Pastor, Bishop Robert Johnson. Suddenly Bishop O. R. Fauss walked up to me unannounced in the hall of a General Conference and grabbed me by my jaws. He stood there and shook my head with tears welling up in his eyes.

He eventually said, "You know what they tell me, son? They tell me that you preach conviction like a young Bro. Fauss." Humbled and totally unworthy of the statement I said, "Elder, I couldn't walk in your shoe leather much less have a ministry like yours."

In time I looked into his tear filled eyes and said, "Bro. Fauss, why isn't there more conviction preaching?" He gave me a few reasons why he thought it wasn't common to hear conviction / strong commitment messages anymore.

One of the answers was this; "Son, it takes a certain kind of life to preach that kind of message. Most preachers today aren't willing to live that kind of a life."

Then he just stood there and cried.

I have to agree with him on two counts: Most preachers aren't willing to live that kind of life and it does make you want to cry.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 08:59 PM
The topic raised here has been one that has concerned me, as a young whippersnapper, for some time.

I am afraid there is an environment among us that has led to there being a lot of echoes and not too many voices.

We are a generation that would rather be in a herd than to endure the times of loneliness and isolation that it takes for God to craft a truly unique ministry.

A passage that has long been dear to me, and has been the launching pad for one of my favorite messages is this one:


Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.


Jer 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

There are times that the Lord will not share His man with anyone. These times when the Spirit calls you apart are invaluable.

We have a lot of young people who love to dance and worship around the altars when there is a crowd to be a part of, but who aren't as excited about the lonely night watches of solitary prayer meetings.

I remember when I was a youngster going to my first Family Camp at the Oklahoma Camp grounds...

Buck Treadway was preaching the night services, and I was so heavily impacted that I couldn't bear to go out and fellowship with my friends. the night guards ran me out of the tabernacle almost every night that week sometime after 1:00 AM because I found a corner to pray in after everybody left.

But I was accustomed to going into the woods for long seasons alone to pray. There weren't many other kids around I could spend time with where i lived.

Beautiful post, CoonBishop. Exactly what I was trying to say in my last post.

Ron
03-12-2007, 09:00 PM
I'm blessed to see the kind of responses that my inquiry has garnered.

Some key attributes, in my opinion, of those who have 'personality' to their preaching are...
* A fear of God more than a fear of the people.
* A desire to do something for God whether they get recognition for it or not.
* It genuinely is a passion and not just a profession.

One thing that most Saints (and some so called 'preachers') fail to consider as it pertains to 'preaching' personalities is the 'solitude' that real ministry seems to demand. A few years ago I was walking in the hall of a General Conference with my Pastor, Bishop Robert Johnson. Suddenly Bishop O. R. Fauss walked up to me unannounced in the hall of a General Conference and grabbed me by my jaws. He stood there and shook my head with tears welling up in his eyes.

He eventually said, "You know what they tell me, son? They tell me that you preach conviction like a young Bro. Fauss." Humbled and totally unworthy of the statement I said, "Elder, I couldn't walk in your shoe leather much less have a ministry like yours."

In time I looked into his tear filled eyes and said, "Bro. Fauss, why isn't there more conviction preaching?" He gave me a few reasons why he thought it wasn't common to hear conviction / strong commitment messages anymore.

One of the answers was this; "Son, it takes a certain kind of life to preach that kind of message. Most preachers today aren't willing to live that kind of a life."

Then he just stood there and cried.

I have to agree with him on two counts: Most preachers aren't willing to live that kind of life and it does make you want to cry.

:sad

rrford
03-12-2007, 09:01 PM
Had an interesting conversation with a Texas District Presbyter today. He had the same conclusion that I have. Many of those letting go of the things you are speaking of are not young men, but older men. That is seriously hurting our movement.

If the elders do not preach it, the younger will not hear it nor will they preach it. Spiritual pablum will not engender revival nor nourish an anemic church.

Ron
03-12-2007, 09:02 PM
Had an interesting conversation with a Texas District Presbyter today. He had the same conclusion that I have. Many of those letting go of the things you are speaking of are not young men, but older men. That is seriously hurting our movement.

If the elders do not preach it, the younger will not hear it nor will they preach it. Spiritual pablum will not engender revival nor nourish an anemic church.

Our Pastor just spoke on these things this past Sunday.

stmatthew
03-12-2007, 09:35 PM
Only my lowly opinion.

When we ministers become hungry enough that nothing else matters, that we would rather walk away from the pulpit than preach "another message". When we become driven into our wilderness of solitude to pray until we find that hidden life in Christ, that secret place of the most high. When our "occupation" becomes the prayer chambers.


But the sad thing thing is that I really find no Prophet in Israel. Many want the title, but few live the title. Without a prophet this nation will continue to plummet, and the church of America will continue to sleep. We have been set on an exceeding high mountain, and have seen the glory of this world's goods, and have desired them.

I believe it was Verbal bean that in the message "Which way went the Spirit from you", talked about those living next to the train tracks, and that they had become so used to the train coming through that they hardly noticed it anymore. America, and the Apostolic church specifically, has heard some of the best of the best preaching. Yet we are not moved to greater depths in God. We still place our tents around the foundation, and do not even realize that there is a temple that is not yet built. I fear that the words of the preacher have become to common that we, like the train track people, no longer hear the voice of the Spirit.

just my ramblings

Ron
03-12-2007, 10:28 PM
Only my lowly opinion.

When we ministers become hungry enough that nothing else matters, that we would rather walk away from the pulpit than preach "another message". When we become driven into our wilderness of solitude to pray until we find that hidden life in Christ, that secret place of the most high. When our "occupation" becomes the prayer chambers.


But the sad thing thing is that I really find no Prophet in Israel. Many want the title, but few live the title. Without a prophet this nation will continue to plummet, and the church of America will continue to sleep. We have been set on an exceeding high mountain, and have seen the glory of this world's goods, and have desired them.

I believe it was Verbal bean that in the message "Which way went the Spirit from you", talked about those living next to the train tracks, and that they had become so used to the train coming through that they hardly noticed it anymore. America, and the Apostolic church specifically, has heard some of the best of the best preaching. Yet we are not moved to greater depths in God. We still place our tents around the foundation, and do not even realize that there is a temple that is not yet built. I fear that the words of the preacher have become to common that we, like the train track people, no longer hear the voice of the Spirit.

just my ramblings


Not ramblings at all St Matt.

Felicity
03-12-2007, 11:11 PM
Some of the pioneers were real "characters". They had no mentors and nobody much to pattern themselves or their ministry after. They were true blue originals.

So many of the men in ministry today in these 4th/5th generation organizations have gone through Bible School, pattern themselves after others so you have a lot of guys that are all kind of cookie cutter imitations.

Some of the guys who come in out of the world and don't get to our Bible Schools have an individuality of sorts.

J. Arnold comes immediately to mind. He was definitely original. :)

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:45 PM
Had an interesting conversation with a Texas District Presbyter today. He had the same conclusion that I have. Many of those letting go of the things you are speaking of are not young men, but older men. That is seriously hurting our movement.

If the elders do not preach it, the younger will not hear it nor will they preach it. Spiritual pablum will not engender revival nor nourish an anemic church.

I am inclined to believe the Presbyter's view completely. I find that it's not so much the young men as it is the older men who let things 'slip'. If they do then we have no hope of a younger generation picking up the mantle and running with it.

Steadfast
03-12-2007, 11:46 PM
Only my lowly opinion.

When we ministers become hungry enough that nothing else matters, that we would rather walk away from the pulpit than preach "another message". When we become driven into our wilderness of solitude to pray until we find that hidden life in Christ, that secret place of the most high. When our "occupation" becomes the prayer chambers.


But the sad thing thing is that I really find no Prophet in Israel. Many want the title, but few live the title. Without a prophet this nation will continue to plummet, and the church of America will continue to sleep. We have been set on an exceeding high mountain, and have seen the glory of this world's goods, and have desired them.

I believe it was Verbal bean that in the message "Which way went the Spirit from you", talked about those living next to the train tracks, and that they had become so used to the train coming through that they hardly noticed it anymore. America, and the Apostolic church specifically, has heard some of the best of the best preaching. Yet we are not moved to greater depths in God. We still place our tents around the foundation, and do not even realize that there is a temple that is not yet built. I fear that the words of the preacher have become to common that we, like the train track people, no longer hear the voice of the Spirit.

just my ramblings

And wonderful ramblings they are... great post.

The Dean
03-13-2007, 12:22 AM
There is a lot of good information in this thread. Maybe we should look back to a Bible story that proves what so many of you have said.

It was God alone that heard the prayers of his people and God alone that handpicked Saul to be their King. What was I that God saw in him that day? What is that great trait that God saw that nobody else could recognize?

We don't see it when the anointing oil flowed over his head. We don’t see any clues when the people start chanting through the streets that Saul was the King of Israel.

Could it be that our greatest hint was found at his coronation? Not only could we not find the qualifying factor for which God chose him but we can’t even find Saul himself!

Scripture says “when they sought him, he could not be found.” At some point someone inquired of the Lord saying, “Where is he that you’ve chosen with your own hand, Lord?” The Lord answered, "He’s hidden himself among the stuff.”

He was no doubt trembling at the thought of being chosen of God for such a mighty purpose. My question? Could it be that his ability to tremble was the very reason God chose him? I suspect, too, that this is why God elevated him to thrones, leading armies and leading God's favored nation.

But don't forget that this same man later became comfortable, even casual, about the things of God.

He became so casual with the things of God that he didn’t even tremble when he disobeyed God’s order to utterly slay the Amalekites and decided to what his flesh wanted was more important than what God wanted.

He became so comfortable with the things of God that there was no trembling as he thumbed his nose at the need for a Man of God in his own life and decided that he could offer his own sacrifices.

He became so indifferent with the presence of God that he could prophecy with the prophets and without trembling just verses later goes to a witch at Endor.

This would give new understanding to the scripture that told Saul "When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?"

When he was small he became mighty. When he thought himself mighty he became insignificant to God's plan.

Coonskinner
03-13-2007, 07:41 AM
There is a lot of good information in this thread. Maybe we should look back to a Bible story that proves what so many of you have said.

It was God alone that heard the prayers of his people and God alone that handpicked Saul to be their King. What was I that God saw in him that day? What is that great trait that God saw that nobody else could recognize?

We don't see it when the anointing oil flowed over his head. We don’t see any clues when the people start chanting through the streets that Saul was the King of Israel.

Could it be that our greatest hint was found at his coronation? Not only could we not find the qualifying factor for which God chose him but we can’t even find Saul himself!

Scripture says “when they sought him, he could not be found.” At some point someone inquired of the Lord saying, “Where is he that you’ve chosen with your own hand, Lord?” The Lord answered, "He’s hidden himself among the stuff.”

He was no doubt trembling at the thought of being chosen of God for such a mighty purpose. My question? Could it be that his ability to tremble was the very reason God chose him? I suspect, too, that this is why God elevated him to thrones, leading armies and leading God's favored nation.

But don't forget that this same man later became comfortable, even casual, about the things of God.

He became so casual with the things of God that he didn’t even tremble when he disobeyed God’s order to utterly slay the Amalekites and decided to what his flesh wanted was more important than what God wanted.

He became so comfortable with the things of God that there was no trembling as he thumbed his nose at the need for a Man of God in his own life and decided that he could offer his own sacrifices.

He became so indifferent with the presence of God that he could prophecy with the prophets and without trembling just verses later goes to a witch at Endor.

This would give new understanding to the scripture that told Saul "When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?"

When he was small he became mighty. When he thought himself mighty he became insignificant to God's plan.

Tremendous post, and very true and relevant.

Malvaro
03-13-2007, 08:34 AM
If the elders do not preach it, the younger will not hear it nor will they preach it. Spiritual pablum will not engender revival nor nourish an anemic church.

pablum:

a brand of soft, bland cereal for infants. or
trite, naive, or simplistic ideas or writings; intellectual pap.

LadyChocolate
03-13-2007, 08:44 AM
There is a lot of good information in this thread. Maybe we should look back to a Bible story that proves what so many of you have said.

It was God alone that heard the prayers of his people and God alone that handpicked Saul to be their King. What was I that God saw in him that day? What is that great trait that God saw that nobody else could recognize?

We don't see it when the anointing oil flowed over his head. We don’t see any clues when the people start chanting through the streets that Saul was the King of Israel.

Could it be that our greatest hint was found at his coronation? Not only could we not find the qualifying factor for which God chose him but we can’t even find Saul himself!

Scripture says “when they sought him, he could not be found.” At some point someone inquired of the Lord saying, “Where is he that you’ve chosen with your own hand, Lord?” The Lord answered, "He’s hidden himself among the stuff.”

He was no doubt trembling at the thought of being chosen of God for such a mighty purpose. My question? Could it be that his ability to tremble was the very reason God chose him? I suspect, too, that this is why God elevated him to thrones, leading armies and leading God's favored nation.

But don't forget that this same man later became comfortable, even casual, about the things of God.

He became so casual with the things of God that he didn’t even tremble when he disobeyed God’s order to utterly slay the Amalekites and decided to what his flesh wanted was more important than what God wanted.

He became so comfortable with the things of God that there was no trembling as he thumbed his nose at the need for a Man of God in his own life and decided that he could offer his own sacrifices.

He became so indifferent with the presence of God that he could prophecy with the prophets and without trembling just verses later goes to a witch at Endor.

This would give new understanding to the scripture that told Saul "When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?"

When he was small he became mighty. When he thought himself mighty he became insignificant to God's plan.

Indeed!!!! Great Post!!!

RevDWW
03-13-2007, 11:28 AM
There is a lot of good information in this thread. Maybe we should look back to a Bible story that proves what so many of you have said.

It was God alone that heard the prayers of his people and God alone that handpicked Saul to be their King. What was I that God saw in him that day? What is that great trait that God saw that nobody else could recognize?

We don't see it when the anointing oil flowed over his head. We don’t see any clues when the people start chanting through the streets that Saul was the King of Israel.

Could it be that our greatest hint was found at his coronation? Not only could we not find the qualifying factor for which God chose him but we can’t even find Saul himself!

Scripture says “when they sought him, he could not be found.” At some point someone inquired of the Lord saying, “Where is he that you’ve chosen with your own hand, Lord?” The Lord answered, "He’s hidden himself among the stuff.”

He was no doubt trembling at the thought of being chosen of God for such a mighty purpose. My question? Could it be that his ability to tremble was the very reason God chose him? I suspect, too, that this is why God elevated him to thrones, leading armies and leading God's favored nation.

But don't forget that this same man later became comfortable, even casual, about the things of God.

He became so casual with the things of God that he didn’t even tremble when he disobeyed God’s order to utterly slay the Amalekites and decided to what his flesh wanted was more important than what God wanted.

He became so comfortable with the things of God that there was no trembling as he thumbed his nose at the need for a Man of God in his own life and decided that he could offer his own sacrifices.

He became so indifferent with the presence of God that he could prophecy with the prophets and without trembling just verses later goes to a witch at Endor.

This would give new understanding to the scripture that told Saul "When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?"

When he was small he became mighty. When he thought himself mighty he became insignificant to God's plan.

Excellent post.

We are lost and undone when it becomes "all about me" instead of it being "all about Him".

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 01:19 PM
Great posts by everyone.

I'd like to see you name....

(A) Some of the older established preachers with distinct personalities that we would be hard pressed to replace.

(B) Some of this generation of preachers that have a strong distinct personality to their preaching.

I think we might be surprised at how many of the older generation we can think of in relationship to how few of the present generation we can think of.

I may be wrong. I kind of hope I am.... :dunno

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 01:20 PM
Excellent post.

We are lost and undone when it becomes "all about me" instead of it being "all about Him".

I strongly agree with you, by the way.

BoredOutOfMyMind
03-13-2007, 02:09 PM
Steadfast,

I just have a few minutes and have only had time to read your initial post on this thread.

I think there is always room for "personalities" and that we all enjoy hearing men who make the gospel message interesting and present it in ways that stick with us.

I just don't think being "distinctive" is an excuse for boorish behaviour as some do. I am amused when I continually read where preachers speaking about an elder (usually ultra cons) will mention how Bro. So and So was so wonderful and kind but usually thought of as being gruff or mean.

As I have mentioned before I do think that the traits that make some preachers very successful also have a negative side that often manifests itself also.

The same stubborness or perserverance that makes a man continue on through disappointments and setbacks can also manifest itself in ways that do not reflect well on him.

I think we all, not just preachers, have to recognize those traits in us that are our achiles heel and watch out for them.

Many in person are not nearly as gruff as they are portrayed and infact are al l together different!

What we need is a old fashioned revival of prayer like Wales saw in the 1890's.

Annie
03-13-2007, 04:22 PM
Great posts by everyone.

I'd like to see you name....

(A) Some of the older established preachers with distinct personalities that we would be hard pressed to replace.

(B) Some of this generation of preachers that have a strong distinct personality to their preaching.

I think we might be surprised at how many of the older generation we can think of in relationship to how few of the present generation we can think of.

I may be wrong. I kind of hope I am.... :dunno




I have thought about this post for HOURS...I am hard-pressed to think of ANY preacher in this generation that I would name here- other than those over 40...?????

I have never really thought a whole lot about this- I was raised in a preacher's home, and he loved Bro. Ballestaro, Elder Golder, Verbal Bean, Bro. Glass, Bro. Cavaness, Bro Paul Jordan,etc.
I heard those men by the HOUR preaching in our house- via tape ministries...*smile*

I think this generation is being short-changed. Whose fault IS that???

Barb
03-13-2007, 04:31 PM
I have thought about this post for HOURS...I am hard-pressed to think of ANY preacher in this generation that I would name here- other than those over 40...?????

I have never really thought a whole lot about this- I was raised in a preacher's home, and he loved Bro. Ballestaro, Elder Golder, Verbal Bean, Bro. Glass, Bro. Cavaness, Bro Paul Jordan,etc.
I heard those men by the HOUR preaching in our house- via tape ministries...*smile*

I think this generation is being short-changed. Whose fault IS that???

When great and humble men of God are mentioned, Bishop William Parent from Pontiac, MI, certainly comes to mind.

Annie
03-13-2007, 04:34 PM
When great and humble men of God are mentioned, Bishop William Parent from Pontiac, MI, certainly comes to mind.

Oh, my gosh!! I forgot about him!! We met him one time, and he was sooo kind to my husband, and whenever we have seen him anywhere since then- he makes a point to speak to us 'lowly' saints...LOVE him. Thanks, for jarring my memory, Sis.

I am certain I have left out many more- my mom could help there...she was raised around Bro. Pasley's (sp) in Ohio, and Bro Perry in Louisville- they were great men also...

Coonskinner
03-13-2007, 04:47 PM
Great posts by everyone.

I'd like to see you name....

(A) Some of the older established preachers with distinct personalities that we would be hard pressed to replace.

(B) Some of this generation of preachers that have a strong distinct personality to their preaching.

I think we might be surprised at how many of the older generation we can think of in relationship to how few of the present generation we can think of.

I may be wrong. I kind of hope I am.... :dunno



Elders I miss, or will soon be missing as they pass off the scene...

C.A. Nelson--One of the greats. He had a sense of humor that was unmatched, but could preach the paint off the walls. Once while preaching at ABI, frustrated with how dead they were, he preached a sermon entitled, "What In Hell Do You Want?" in which he told them that as far as he could see, they were all twice dead and plucked up by the roots, and were likely all going to hell. So thence the question.:)

I was with him just a couple of moments before he died, and preached at his church that night, and the morning service also. A mentor I sorely miss.

J.T. Pugh--The Prince of Preachers. His poise and stature in the pulpit and out have perhaps never been equalled. Who could forget classic sermons like "Your First Night In Hell," "I Saw the Dead," "Stars You've Never Seen Before," "Something Better Than Heaven, and Something Worse Than Hell," and countless others? A stately and dignified man, yet one of the most intense human beings I have ever met.

L.E. Westburg--An unforgettable personality and a superb preacher. Elder Westburg could preach the Apostles' Doctrine evangelistically as well as any man ever did. Controversial? Yes. Tough as nails? Absolutely. But he loved God, he loved souls, and he would have shed every drop of blood in his veins for this Great Truth.

R.E. Johnson--A faith preacher par excellence, who saw many, many miracles in his meetings. When the service would be over, and the rejoicing finally quiet, the Elder would hobble off the platform, leaning on his cane, with his body wracked with pain. But he never complained and he never stopped preaching that His Jesus was a Healer.

I'm sure I will think of more later.



Men in our generation with distinct preaching personalities?

Mark Morgan--All I can say is you just have to hear him. One of the great doctrinal preachers of our generation. Some of the most powerful spiritual experiences I have ever had have been around this man and his ministry. Like most "Originals," he is often misunderstood, but he is a great man nonetheless.

Greg Godwin--A pure evangelist. He can split the hide and rub salt in it, and yet that cherubic smile and boundless good humor seems to keep anybody from getting mad at him for long. :)

He is also a strong doctrinal preacher.

I can hear him now saying, "When it's tight, it's right!"

Douglas White--Absolutely one of the finest preachers in our movement, regardless of age. Many superlatives apply.

More to come--mam says supper is ready. :)

Annie
03-13-2007, 04:50 PM
Elders I miss, or will soon be missing as they pass off the scene...

C.A. Nelson--One of the greats. He had a sense of humor that was unmatched, but could preach the paint off the walls. Once while preaching at ABI, frustrated with how dead they were, he preached a sermon entitled, "What In Hell Do You Want?" in which he told them that as far as he could see, they were all twice dead and plucked up by the roots, and were likely all going to hell. So thence the question.:)

I was with him just a couple of moments before he died, and preached at his church that night, and the morning service also. A mentor I sorely miss.

J.T. Pugh--The Prince of Preachers. His poise and stature in the pulpit and out have perhaps never been equalled. Who could forget classic sermons like "Your First Night In Hell," "I Saw the Dead," "Stars You've Never Seen Before," "Something Better Than Heaven, and Something Worse Than Hell," and countless others? A stately and dignified man, yet one of the most intense human beings I have ever met.

L.E. Westburg--An unforgettable personality and a superb preacher. Elder Westburg could preach the Apostles' Doctrine evangelistically as well as any man ever did. Controversial? Yes. Tough as nails? Absolutely. But he loved God, he loved souls, and he would have shed every drop of blood in his veins for this Great Truth.

R.E. Johnson--A faith preacher par excellence, who saw many, many miracles in his meetings. When the service would be over, and the rejoicing finally quiet, the Elder would hobble off the platform, leaning on his cane, with his body wracked with pain. But he never complained and he never stopped preaching that His Jesus was a Healer.

I'm sure I will think of more later.



Men in our generation with distinct preaching personalities?

Mark Morgan--All I can say is you just have to hear him. One of the great doctrinal preachers of our generation. Some of the most powerful spiritual experiences I have ever had have been around this man and his ministry. Like most "Originals," he is often misunderstood, but he is a great man nonetheless.

Greg Godwin--A pure evangelist. He can split the hide and rub salt in it, and yet that cherubic smile and boundless good humor seems to keep anybody from getting mad at him for long. :)

He is also a strong doctrinal preacher.

I can hear him now saying, "When it's tight, it's right!"

Douglas White--Absolutely one of the finest preachers in our movement, regardless of age. Many superlatives apply.

More to come--mam says supper is ready. :)


LOVE him, brother...I heard him preach a sermon MANY years ago in Carmel, he entitled it, "Handicapped Heroes"...my, how it ministered to us, and still does- we have the tape!!! LOL

Awesome preacher...one you never forget.

Barb
03-13-2007, 05:26 PM
Elders I miss, or will soon be missing as they pass off the scene...

C.A. Nelson--One of the greats. He had a sense of humor that was unmatched, but could preach the paint off the walls. Once while preaching at ABI, frustrated with how dead they were, he preached a sermon entitled, "What In Hell Do You Want?" in which he told them that as far as he could see, they were all twice dead and plucked up by the roots, and were likely all going to hell. So thence the question.:)

I was with him just a couple of moments before he died, and preached at his church that night, and the morning service also. A mentor I sorely miss.

J.T. Pugh--The Prince of Preachers. His poise and stature in the pulpit and out have perhaps never been equalled. Who could forget classic sermons like "Your First Night In Hell," "I Saw the Dead," "Stars You've Never Seen Before," "Something Better Than Heaven, and Something Worse Than Hell," and countless others? A stately and dignified man, yet one of the most intense human beings I have ever met.

L.E. Westburg--An unforgettable personality and a superb preacher. Elder Westburg could preach the Apostles' Doctrine evangelistically as well as any man ever did. Controversial? Yes. Tough as nails? Absolutely. But he loved God, he loved souls, and he would have shed every drop of blood in his veins for this Great Truth.

R.E. Johnson--A faith preacher par excellence, who saw many, many miracles in his meetings. When the service would be over, and the rejoicing finally quiet, the Elder would hobble off the platform, leaning on his cane, with his body wracked with pain. But he never complained and he never stopped preaching that His Jesus was a Healer.

I'm sure I will think of more later.



Men in our generation with distinct preaching personalities?

Mark Morgan--All I can say is you just have to hear him. One of the great doctrinal preachers of our generation. Some of the most powerful spiritual experiences I have ever had have been around this man and his ministry. Like most "Originals," he is often misunderstood, but he is a great man nonetheless.

Greg Godwin--A pure evangelist. He can split the hide and rub salt in it, and yet that cherubic smile and boundless good humor seems to keep anybody from getting mad at him for long. :)

He is also a strong doctrinal preacher.

I can hear him now saying, "When it's tight, it's right!"

Douglas White--Absolutely one of the finest preachers in our movement, regardless of age. Many superlatives apply.

More to come--mam says supper is ready. :)

Over 30 years ago I heard Elder Johnson preach 'The Backside of the Desert'...after lo these many years, I remember the impact of that message on me.

RevDWW
03-13-2007, 05:30 PM
Over 30 years ago I heard Elder Johnson preach 'The Backside of the Desert'...after lo these many years, I remember the impact of that message on me.

I heard him preach that as well. He was one of my favorites while growing up.

Coonskinner
03-13-2007, 05:31 PM
I'm not sure where he fits between the generations, but Nate Wilson has to be mentioned.

His personality and ministry are both huge.

Brilliant, witty, and authoratative, he is one of a kind.

rgcraig
03-13-2007, 05:40 PM
George Glass, Sr. - passionate about whatever he was preaching, wisdom exuded from the man, kindness, pastor's heart (even after he stopped pastoring) I loved the way he would say: Beee U tee full

RevDWW
03-13-2007, 05:45 PM
George Glass, Sr. - passionate about whatever he was preaching, wisdom exuded from the man, kindness, pastor's heart (even after he stopped pastoring) I loved the way he would say: Beee U tee full

Huh? He couldn't find wisdom, it escaped him? :killinme :killinme

rgcraig
03-13-2007, 05:48 PM
Huh? He couldn't find wisdom, it escaped him? :killinme :killinme

LOL.....long day - - thanks for catching that!

RevDWW
03-13-2007, 05:54 PM
LOL.....long day - - thanks for catching that!

I should have let it lay, but then again , what's the fun in that. :killinme

Barb
03-13-2007, 05:58 PM
I'm not sure where he fits between the generations, but Nate Wilson has to be mentioned.

His personality and ministry are both huge.

Brilliant, witty, and authoratative, he is one of a kind.

Ahhh...now you're talking about my bishop...*sigh*

He is one of a kind. Bishop Wilson was an old man when he was in his 20s...old in wisdom and knowledge, I mean...

Coonskinner
03-13-2007, 07:01 PM
Leo Upton--I'm not sure how to say this in a way that doesn't sound like a left-handed compliment, but he was dry in personality, and dry in his preaching. He talked slow, moved slow, and would seldom raise his voice.

But thousands received the Holy Ghost under his ministry.

He was proof that you don't have to do the rapid fire oratory with all the trimmings to have a harvest. He was just himself, but had a powerful anointing of faith, and signs followed his ministry. He was another one-of-a-kind. I imagine Bishop Holland could tell us about him. My wife received the Holy Ghost with his hand on her head, as did thousands of others.

Rhymis
03-13-2007, 07:16 PM
Then there's hope for Bishop Epley. :bliss

J-Roc
03-13-2007, 07:18 PM
If it was in a spirit of "entreat him as a father," and not rebuking of an elder by a anovice, which is Unscriptural, then I think it would be all right.

I believe in an open pulpit, so long as Scriptural lines are not crossed.


Unscriptural, huh? Let's see Elihu in action in Job 32 with his mega-rebuke, I'll spare you from his entire unleashing and just give you a sample:


“I am young and you are old,
so I held back from telling you what I think.
I thought, ‘Those who are older should speak,
for wisdom comes with age.’
But there is a spirit within people,
the breath of the Almighty within them,
that makes them intelligent.
Sometimes the elders are not wise.
Sometimes the aged do not understand justice.
So listen to me,
and let me tell you what I think.

Coonskinner
03-13-2007, 07:21 PM
Unscriptural, huh? Let's see Elihu in action in Job 32 with his mega-rebuke, I'll spare you from his entire unleashing and just give you a sample:


“I am young and you are old,
so I held back from telling you what I think.
I thought, ‘Those who are older should speak,
for wisdom comes with age.’
But there is a spirit within people,
the breath of the Almighty within them,
that makes them intelligent.
Sometimes the elders are not wise.
Sometimes the aged do not understand justice.
So listen to me,
and let me tell you what I think.

ROFL!

You are holding up a guy like that as a great example?

You make my point for me.

Coonskinner
03-13-2007, 07:24 PM
Unscriptural, huh? Let's see Elihu in action in Job 32 with his mega-rebuke, I'll spare you from his entire unleashing and just give you a sample:


“I am young and you are old,
so I held back from telling you what I think.
I thought, ‘Those who are older should speak,
for wisdom comes with age.’
But there is a spirit within people,
the breath of the Almighty within them,
that makes them intelligent.
Sometimes the elders are not wise.
Sometimes the aged do not understand justice.
So listen to me,
and let me tell you what I think.


Let's see what God thought about their methods...



Job 42:7 ¶ And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].

J,

You have just hoisted yourself on your own petard.:killinme

J-Roc
03-13-2007, 07:32 PM
Let's see what God thought about their methods...



Job 42:7 ¶ And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].

J,

You have just hoisted yourself on your own petard.:killinme



Someone is really gonna feel crunchy....God was speaking to one of the three elders....Elihu, who I am speaking of, is not one of the three...he's the young gun. You are laughable! :killinme

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 07:37 PM
Someone is really gonna feel crunchy....God was speaking to one of the three elders....Elihu, who I am speaking of, is not one of the three...he's the young gun. You are laughable! :killinme

Just stopped by for a moment. J-Roc, don't know you friend but you couldn't carry CoonBishop's briefcase in a hundred years.

That is really one challenge you don't want to enter into.

He's neither 'company man' or pushover. In fact, he's best described as a Man of God who has little time for anything less than respect for authority and reverence for the things of God.

Besides, what you call 'laughable' I call friend. A close one at that.

Rhymis
03-13-2007, 07:45 PM
Yeah, and I just wish he was my buddy!!!!!!!

The Dean
03-13-2007, 07:50 PM
Coonskinner is a sound voice and a reasonable man on the forum. To the current controversy in which someone was called laughable I can only add scripture to reason.

Days should speak and the multitude of years should give wisdom.

He's been here long enough that people know full well he's not rash or rude. His respect among us is not threatened by any of this. Days have spoken on his behalf.

SDG
03-13-2007, 09:05 PM
Just stopped by for a moment. J-Roc, don't know you friend but you couldn't carry CoonBishop's briefcase in a hundred years.

That is really one challenge you don't want to enter into.

He's neither 'company man' or pushover. In fact, he's best described as a Man of God who has little time for anything less than respect for authority and reverence for the things of God.

Besides, what you call 'laughable' I call friend. A close one at that.

Steadfast ... J-Roc is part of a long line of Oneness Apostolics ... his grandmother was a pioneer in the work in Colombia ... I'll carry his suitcase w/ pride. He is a man of God and a close friend.

rrford
03-13-2007, 09:38 PM
Steadfast ... J-Roc is part of a long line of Oneness Apostolics ... his grandmother was a pioneer in the work in Colombia ... I'll carry his suitcase w/ pride. He is a man of God and a close friend.

And this means what in light of Steadfast's post?

BTW, seems you are getting a little consumed with "pedigree." Thought you didn't like such things? :heeheehee

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 09:51 PM
Steadfast ... J-Roc is part of a long line of Oneness Apostolics ... his grandmother was a pioneer in the work in Colombia ... I'll carry his suitcase w/ pride. He is a man of God and a close friend.

Daniel,

With all due benevolence I have to tell you that what a man IS and what someone else WAS offer us two entirely different sets of dynamics. CoonBishop IS a fine man with a proven track record.

Can't say much about J-Roc because I don't know him. Just felt it was a little presumptuous and insolent to call a 'proven' man 'laughable'.

SDG
03-13-2007, 09:55 PM
Daniel,

With all due benevolence I have to tell you that what a man IS and what someone else WAS offer us two entirely different sets of dynamics. CoonBishop IS a fine man with a proven track record.

Can't say much about J-Roc because I don't know him. Just felt it was a little presumptuous and insolent to call a 'proven' man 'laughable'.

When CS refrains from using such words ... then perhaps you will have a legitimate beef ... until then ... live by the sword ... fill in the blanks

Annie
03-13-2007, 10:00 PM
Really guys, my neck is starting to hurt- I feel like a spectator at a boxing match!!!! LOL

SDG
03-13-2007, 10:01 PM
And this means what in light of Steadfast's post?

BTW, seems you are getting a little consumed with "pedigree." Thought you didn't like such things? :heeheehee

It seems that's the only thing that will give you any credibility among the literati ... so when in Rome do as the Romans do. :tease :tease :tease :tease

rrford
03-13-2007, 10:01 PM
When CS refrains from using such words ... then perhaps you will have a legitimate beef ... until then ... live by the sword ... fill in the blanks

And you want to bemoan the "Truth Police?" :killinme

I see the scriptural tenet of "doing unto others" does not apply here, right?

SDG
03-13-2007, 10:03 PM
And you want to bemoan the "Truth Police?" :killinme

I see the scriptural tenet of "doing unto others" does not apply here, right?

I am an OT kind of guy ... a tooth for a tooth :tease :tease :tease

rrford
03-13-2007, 10:03 PM
It seems that's the only thing that will give you any credibility among the literati ... so when in Rome do as the Romans do. :tease :tease :tease :tease

I assure you pedigree will not do it. It takes a couple of things called "time and experience." Neither of which can be rushed.

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 10:03 PM
When CS refrains from using such words ... then perhaps you will have a legitimate beef ... until then ... live by the sword ... fill in the blanks


Using such words? Has he used foul language!?!? I've never seen that in him before. I guess I honestly don't know what you're talking about because I've seen nothing offensive about his posts. But, then again, I could have missed it.

He's pretty good with words... in fact was trained in them. I'd pick my battles wisely if I were you!

(I honestly don't know what offensive thing Coon said... Admins, feel free to help me out here if I missed something.)

rrford
03-13-2007, 10:03 PM
I am an OT kind of guy ... a tooth for a tooth :tease :tease :tease

Legalist.

rrford
03-13-2007, 10:04 PM
Using such words? Has he used foul language!?!? I've never seen that in him before. I guess I honestly don't know what you're talking about because I've seen nothing offensive about his posts. But, then again, I could have missed it.

He's pretty good with words... in fact was trained in them. I'd pick my battles wisely if I were you!

(I honestly don't know what offensive thing Coon said... Admins, feel free to help me out here if I missed something.)


I think it was a "perception" problem. :dunno :heeheehee

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 10:05 PM
Legalist.

Now THAT is downright funny!

:killinme :bliss :killinme

SDG
03-13-2007, 10:06 PM
Using such words? Has he used foul language!?!? I've never seen that in him before. I guess I honestly don't know what you're talking about because I've seen nothing offensive about his posts. But, then again, I could have missed it.

He's pretty good with words... in fact was trained in them. I'd pick my battles wisely if I were you!

(I honestly don't know what offensive thing Coon said... Admins, feel free to help me out here if I missed something.)

Steadfast ... you are perhaps unaware of the quips he uses ... and so I will allow his words to speak for themselves.

revrandy
03-13-2007, 10:09 PM
Great posts by everyone.

I'd like to see you name....

(A) Some of the older established preachers with distinct personalities that we would be hard pressed to replace.

Coonskinner named some of mine..

C.A. Nelson.... Great Pioneer...
EG Bass....
NA Urshan....
Darryl Rash....
TF Tenney....
KH Haney
NA Wilson



Not a Minister but known of many to be a Man of God..Drove a SS Bus for 30+years...
TR McDonald...Father to Priscilla McGruder, Mary Wilson and Joy Haney..


(B) Some of this generation of preachers that have a strong distinct personality to their preaching.

Jerry Jones....
Scott Graham...
Danny Hood....
Terry Shock....
Myles Young....


I think we might be surprised at how many of the older generation we can think of in relationship to how few of the present generation we can think of.

I may be wrong. I kind of hope I am.... :dunno



here's mine..

SDG
03-13-2007, 10:28 PM
I assure you pedigree will not do it. It takes a couple of things called "time and experience." Neither of which can be rushed.

To measure time and experience just using this venue would be inefficient and inaccurate.

rrford
03-13-2007, 10:30 PM
To measure time and experience just using this venue would be inefficient and inaccurate.

No doubt. Most of those who support one another in this fashion here know each other beyond this venue.

But there is a certain amount of respect given to those who have been consistent on these Forums over time.

rrford
03-13-2007, 10:31 PM
here's mine..

Long list, huh? I'm impressed.

SDG
03-13-2007, 10:32 PM
No doubt. Most of those who support one another in this fashion here know each other beyond this venue.

But there is a certain amount of respect given to those who have been consistent on these Forums over time.

Understandable ... as long as we understand that our world view is not the only view.

stmatthew
03-13-2007, 10:34 PM
Though I know some men that I really love, I cannot name any that fit the bill that is being presented. There just seemed to be a spiritual depth even in the simplest sermons during the 70's. I don't know how else to explain it.


Some of it could be that folks didn't mind worshipping in lowly places like storefronts. They just loved God, and didn't care about the surroundings.

rrford
03-13-2007, 10:35 PM
Understandable ... as long as we understand that our world view is not the only view.

NO individuals world view is the only view. If I call someone on the other side of the world and tell them to look outside because the stars are bright they will quickly tell me the sun is shining too brightly to see the stars.

But when we make such statements as you have we must also constantly remind ourselves of that fact. It seems we rarely get beyond our personal bias of our world view.

CC1
03-13-2007, 10:38 PM
Though I know some men that I really love, I cannot name any that fit the bill that is being presented. There just seemed to be a spiritual depth even in the simplest sermons during the 70's. I don't know how else to explain it.


Some of it could be that folks didn't mind worshipping in lowly places like storefronts. They just loved God, and didn't care about the surroundings.

Next you will be trying to tell me you can commune with God without padded pews or a caramal macchiato!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stmatthew
03-13-2007, 10:40 PM
Next you will be trying to tell me you can commune with God without padded pews or a caramal macchiato!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now now, Some modernizing is God ordained. We have to do something with all those empty storefronts. STARBUCKS is the answer!! :bliss

The Dean
03-13-2007, 10:42 PM
When CS refrains from using such words ... then perhaps you will have a legitimate beef ... until then ... live by the sword ... fill in the blanks

If there is an issue with any of the words or statements made by Coonskinner or anybody else that you feel are offensive or in poor taste for an Apostolic Forum there is a process of reporting posts that puts it in the hands of the Administrators.

You might find that abiding by those guidelines would help not only the forum but the perception you leave others with after your responses.

My suggestion would be to report anything you feel is wrong and avoid being persistently controversial.

Thank you.

CC1
03-13-2007, 10:43 PM
Now now, Some modernizing is God ordained. We have to do something with all those empty storefronts. STARBUCKS is the answer!! :bliss


LOL!!! Put a starbucks at the front and have a door you can grab folks and pull them through to the back to an old fashioned 1970's Pentecostal service!!! (just make sure they don't spill that hot coffee in the process or you will have a lawsuit on your hands)

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 10:44 PM
LOL!!! Put a starbucks at the front and have a door you can grab folks and pull them through to the back to an old fashioned 1970's Pentecostal service!!! (just make sure they don't spill that hot coffee in the process or you will have a lawsuit on your hands)

This sounds like sound doctrine to me!

Long live the Venti Chai Latte!
:highfive

CC1
03-13-2007, 10:47 PM
This sounds like sound doctrine to me!

Long live the Venti Chai Latte!
:highfive



I am to cheap to actually drink much fancy coffee. When I buy coffee at the CC Cafe it is usually just the buck forty regular coffee with a squirt or two of vanilla or hazlenut flavoring (LOL).

Now my wife is the caramal macchiato drinker. I just cringe at the thought of an almost four dollar cup of coffee no matter how good it is!!!! I always buy her the medium size and steal a few sips.

The Dean
03-13-2007, 10:49 PM
I am to cheap to actually drink much fancy coffee. When I buy coffee at the CC Cafe it is usually just the buck forty regular coffee with a squirt or two of vanilla or hazlenut flavoring (LOL).

Now my wife is the caramal macchiato drinker. I just cringe at the thought of an almost four dollar cup of coffee no matter how good it is!!!! I always buy her the medium size and steal a few sips.




:bliss :bliss :bliss
GOOD TO SEE CC1 HERE, BY THE WAY!
:bliss :bliss :bliss

berkeley
03-13-2007, 10:49 PM
I am to cheap to actually drink much fancy coffee. When I buy coffee at the CC Cafe it is usually just the buck forty regular coffee with a squirt or two of vanilla or hazlenut flavoring (LOL).

Now my wife is the caramal macchiato drinker. I just cringe at the thought of an almost four dollar cup of coffee no matter how good it is!!!! I always buy her the medium size and steal a few sips.:bliss

LadyCoonskinner
03-13-2007, 10:49 PM
I am to cheap to actually drink much fancy coffee. When I buy coffee at the CC Cafe it is usually just the buck forty regular coffee with a squirt or two of vanilla or hazlenut flavoring (LOL).

Now my wife is the caramal macchiato drinker. I just cringe at the thought of an almost four dollar cup of coffee no matter how good it is!!!! I always buy her the medium size and steal a few sips.

You tight-wad!!!:killinme

CC1
03-13-2007, 10:50 PM
You tight-wad!!!:killinme

LOL!!! Except when it comes to electronics, cars, motorcycles, books, etc, etc.

LadyCoonskinner
03-13-2007, 10:52 PM
LOL!!! Except when it comes to electronics, cars, motorcycles, books, etc, etc.

Yea, MAN-STUFF!!!

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 10:56 PM
Yea, MAN-STUFF!!!

That man stuff will get you every time!

LadyCoonskinner
03-13-2007, 11:01 PM
That man stuff will get you every time!

You're not kidding. His stuff is much more expensive than mine!!!

Now I have more shoes than he does, and I have more clothes than he does, but he has more dogs than I do, and they are expenive dudes, too.

We have one dog that would sell for $5,000. easily. (the stupid thing is, is that there is some dummy out there somewhere that would pay that for her, oooooo think of all the shoes I could buy with 5 grand)

Note: The Skinner is in bed and would probably spaz if he heard me say that. :killinme :killinme

Ron
03-13-2007, 11:40 PM
LCS, I don't believe you updated us on how your speaking went at your Church while CS was away preaching.
How did it go?

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 11:50 PM
Coonskinner named some of mine..

C.A. Nelson.... Great Pioneer...
EG Bass....
NA Urshan....
Darryl Rash....
TF Tenney....
KH Haney
NA Wilson



Not a Minister but known of many to be a Man of God..Drove a SS Bus for 30+years...
TR McDonald...Father to Priscilla McGruder, Mary Wilson and Joy Haney..


(B) Some of this generation of preachers that have a strong distinct personality to their preaching.

Jerry Jones....
Scott Graham...
Danny Hood....
Terry Shock....
Myles Young....

I agree with most of your list...

I'm not a great Tenney fan, per se, but you have to admit that he has an incredible 'personality' to his preaching.

Urshan, Wilson... absolutely!

Jones, Graham (incredible)... don't know much of Hood ... Miles Young...

Yep, I agree!

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 11:55 PM
I have thought about this post for HOURS...I am hard-pressed to think of ANY preacher in this generation that I would name here- other than those over 40...?????

I have never really thought a whole lot about this- I was raised in a preacher's home, and he loved Bro. Ballestaro, Elder Golder, Verbal Bean, Bro. Glass, Bro. Cavaness, Bro Paul Jordan,etc.
I heard those men by the HOUR preaching in our house- via tape ministries...*smile*

I think this generation is being short-changed. Whose fault IS that???

Ballestero was my Pastor's favorite preacher. Golder was mine. Who can forget Bro. Glass, Bro. Caveness (that is a personality recognized minister). I preached for Paul Jordan a couple times eons and ages ago.

Great list!

As to who's fault it is that we don't have more? I think part of it is Pastors themselves by not promoting the young men to be what God made them. The rest of the blame may be put on society itself that tells them that 'popularity' comes by learning how to have 'politically correct' Apostolic preaching.

Steadfast
03-13-2007, 11:59 PM
Elders I miss, or will soon be missing as they pass off the scene...

C.A. Nelson--One of the greats. He had a sense of humor that was unmatched, but could preach the paint off the walls. Once while preaching at ABI, frustrated with how dead they were, he preached a sermon entitled, "What In Hell Do You Want?" in which he told them that as far as he could see, they were all twice dead and plucked up by the roots, and were likely all going to hell. So thence the question.:)

I was with him just a couple of moments before he died, and preached at his church that night, and the morning service also. A mentor I sorely miss.

J.T. Pugh--The Prince of Preachers. His poise and stature in the pulpit and out have perhaps never been equalled. Who could forget classic sermons like "Your First Night In Hell," "I Saw the Dead," "Stars You've Never Seen Before," "Something Better Than Heaven, and Something Worse Than Hell," and countless others? A stately and dignified man, yet one of the most intense human beings I have ever met.

L.E. Westburg--An unforgettable personality and a superb preacher. Elder Westburg could preach the Apostles' Doctrine evangelistically as well as any man ever did. Controversial? Yes. Tough as nails? Absolutely. But he loved God, he loved souls, and he would have shed every drop of blood in his veins for this Great Truth.

R.E. Johnson--A faith preacher par excellence, who saw many, many miracles in his meetings. When the service would be over, and the rejoicing finally quiet, the Elder would hobble off the platform, leaning on his cane, with his body wracked with pain. But he never complained and he never stopped preaching that His Jesus was a Healer.

I'm sure I will think of more later.



Men in our generation with distinct preaching personalities?

Mark Morgan--All I can say is you just have to hear him. One of the great doctrinal preachers of our generation. Some of the most powerful spiritual experiences I have ever had have been around this man and his ministry. Like most "Originals," he is often misunderstood, but he is a great man nonetheless.

Greg Godwin--A pure evangelist. He can split the hide and rub salt in it, and yet that cherubic smile and boundless good humor seems to keep anybody from getting mad at him for long. :)

He is also a strong doctrinal preacher.

I can hear him now saying, "When it's tight, it's right!"

Douglas White--Absolutely one of the finest preachers in our movement, regardless of age. Many superlatives apply.

More to come--mam says supper is ready. :)


What a list! (Not sure about the last guy, though...)

R. E. Johnson... classic!

Westburg had his own personality for sure... and it personified his ministry. :heeheehee

Pugh... Can't you hear him clearing his throat a dozen times and then pulling something magnficent out of his message and making your heart pound because of it!

Steadfast
03-14-2007, 12:02 AM
LOVE him, brother...I heard him preach a sermon MANY years ago in Carmel, he entitled it, "Handicapped Heroes"...my, how it ministered to us, and still does- we have the tape!!! LOL

Awesome preacher...one you never forget.

Carmel, Indiana? For a Pastor Wardwell? That must have been a long time ago as he's been Pastoring for years.



:hmmm

Steadfast
03-14-2007, 12:04 AM
Leo Upton--I'm not sure how to say this in a way that doesn't sound like a left-handed compliment, but he was dry in personality, and dry in his preaching. He talked slow, moved slow, and would seldom raise his voice.

But thousands received the Holy Ghost under his ministry.

He was proof that you don't have to do the rapid fire oratory with all the trimmings to have a harvest. He was just himself, but had a powerful anointing of faith, and signs followed his ministry. He was another one-of-a-kind. I imagine Bishop Holland could tell us about him. My wife received the Holy Ghost with his hand on her head, as did thousands of others.

Never knew Upton but they said he was a class act.

How about Johnny James? THAT is a 'personality' driven ministry! You just can't forget him!

The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 03:44 AM
Never knew Upton but they said he was a class act.

How about Johnny James? THAT is a 'personality' driven ministry! You just can't forget him!

Leo Upton of Tulsa was indeed an anointed of God with the gift of impartation. The last time that I saw him just before his death, he was in a wheelchair still greatly anointed. He was a traveling missionary traveling all over the world under whom many thousands received the HOly Ghost. His son Leo, pastors a church down in South Louisiana around Lake Chrarles, I think.

Johnny James. None other just like him. Has a phenomonal memory.

Westburg. The uncompromiser.

C.A. Nelson. The chicken theif. If you never heard him tell the story how he became a chicken theif, you missed a classic. Loved to hear him sing "It's Real."

R.E. Johnson. Who'll ever forget the classic, "Trophies of Hell."

Godwin and Mark Morgan? New comers. Good I'm sure.

Annie
03-14-2007, 09:16 AM
Carmel, Indiana? For a Pastor Wardwell? That must have been a long time ago as he's been Pastoring for years.



:hmmm


Heehee...YUPPERS. *smile*

tbpew
03-14-2007, 09:22 AM
Leo Upton of Tulsa was indeed an anointed of God with the gift of impartation. The last time that I saw him just before his death, he was in a wheelchair still greatly anointed. He was a traveling missionary traveling all over the world under whom many thousands received the HOly Ghost.

--gift of impartation
what are you saying when you use this phrase?

Shakin' It Off
03-14-2007, 09:23 AM
Heehee...YUPPERS. *smile*How come you always write out smile?.
Why not just :)

Annie
03-14-2007, 09:26 AM
How come you always write out smile?.
Why not just :)

I'm sorry, and this bothers you, WHY???? :winkgrin

revrandy
03-14-2007, 09:31 AM
I agree with most of your list...

I'm not a great Tenney fan, per se, but you have to admit that he has an incredible 'personality' to his preaching.

Urshan, Wilson... absolutely!

Jones, Graham (incredible)... don't know much of Hood ... Miles Young...

Yep, I agree!

Another Preacher I've enjoyed is Bro. Trapani... & Bro. James Hughes... Good Speakers... and powerful Messages...

tbpew
03-14-2007, 09:34 AM
Bro Free (from somewhere in Texas I think) spoke to my soul in the late eighties.

He did not sow one stitch of theatre into the witness.

Shakin' It Off
03-14-2007, 09:36 AM
I'm sorry, and this bothers you, WHY???? :winkgrin
Jus' keep *smilin* Annie. :igotit

The Antagonist
03-14-2007, 10:07 AM
--gift of impartation
what are you saying when you use this phrase?

There are a few that have it. Too few, in fact. Though not listed as one of the 9 in I Cor. 12, yet it is biblical. Both gifts and callings are known to be imparted that way.

If I remember correctly, it was Smith Wigglesworth (possibly Charles Price) that told a chronic seeker to go see his wife to have hands laid on him for the impartation. She was known to have the gift of impartation. He did and received his baptism in the Holy Ghost.

Chan
03-14-2007, 10:07 AM
Alas, it happened again. It came unexpectedly and painted a question mark on my mind that couldn’t be ignored. That question I’ll pose to this illustrious forum.

Today we lost an undeniable ‘preaching’ personality in Pentecost with the passing of Charles Mahaney. He was one of a number of preachers that stormed into the Apostolic movement whose ministry was marked as much by ‘personality' as ‘preaching’. Understand that I’m in no way being critical of that. In fact, I think it was a great ‘plus’ to have people of famed personality among us.

Names that rush to mind when I speak of ‘preaching’ personalities are men like:
* Charles Mahaney (rough as a corn cob but passionate to the extreme).
* Jeff Arnold (the man whose slang makes the starchy among us cringe but whose revelation of truth is remarkable).
* Murrell Cornwell (whose confidence in God and his own ability to reach the lost is sometimes misperceived as obnoxious).
* Murrell Ewing (who weeps his way through life changing sermons and heart altering songs).
* G. A. Mangun (who suffered the critical tongues of men but persevered by living and breathing revival).

Names of those now gone could range from:
* Bishop Morris Golder (the silver tongued preacher who could tell you truth and make you like it).
* Joe Duke (tougher than leather and loved souls).
* Verbal Bean (made you love chewing the carpet in front of an altar).

Doubtless there are many others that you could add to the list but they had one thing in common… they are all ‘preachers’ who are known by their unique personalities. It was the combination of the ‘preaching’ and personality that made them so effective!

But we live in a different day now. We live in a day of ‘non-contradictory’ messages and cookie cutter preachers that have learned the fine art of preaching politically correct sermons that have about as much spiritual value as the plaque on your teeth.

This generation runs to the ‘smiling’ preachers of issue-less, feel good religion. The prominent names that society pushes at us under the guise of ‘successful ministries’ are lackluster and bland in matters pertaining to spirituality. The smiling non-issue hero of Houston or the joke telling comedian of Cajun descent are spiritually bland and morally indistinguishable at best.

Whether we want to admit it or not we have to confess that, in many ways, this appetite for the non-confrontational sermonette has reached even into the sacred boundaries of Apostolic truth. Just one short scan of forums like this reveals the sad truth that there are those whose idea of a ‘preacher’ is little more than a figurehead who looks the part rather than a firebrand that preaches the message.

I sat in my office today and wept like a baby when I surveyed the cult of cookie cutter preachers who would rather be known for filling certain pulpits than to be known for proclaiming God’s ways with a passionate personality. Without those rough, weeping, ‘in your face’ personalities the effective ministries listed above would have been irrepairably crippled.

My question is one that perhaps only time can answer;
* Can this generation ever again lay aside our carnal opinions and allow ‘preaching’ personalities to rise up and make a difference among the Church and the world we’re called to reach?

* Have we reached the point that our fleshly reasoning has forever neutralized preaching personalities?

* Can this generation open their hearts to new faces of those 'John the Baptist-esque' ministries that come looking outdated and disheveled to our keenly 'religious' eyes.

* Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?

We should pray, for our own sake and the sake of a lost world, that’s not the case.The very notion of "preaching personalities" is really no different than the secular notion of "celebrity" and is really the sin of idolatry. It must NEVER be about the man behind the pulpit but, instead, about the Spirit of God that is supposed to be giving him the words to say.

Felicity
03-14-2007, 10:08 AM
There are a few that have it. Too few, in fact. Though not listed as one of the 9 in I Cor. 12, yet it is biblical. Both gifts and callings are known to be imparted that way.

If I remember correctly, it was Smith Wigglesworth (possibly Charles Price) that told a chronic seeker to go see his wife to have hands laid on him for the impartation. She was known to have the gift of impartation. He did and received his baptism in the Holy Ghost.Interesting.

Does everyone receive impartation who is prayed for by someone who's supposed to have that gift?

LadyChocolate
03-14-2007, 10:14 AM
The very notion of "preaching personalities" is really no different than the secular notion of "celebrity" and is really the sin of idolatry. It must NEVER be about the man behind the pulpit but, instead, about the Spirit of God that is supposed to be giving him the words to say.

These men are not ignorant....They know it's not about man. And I am also pretty sure they are not idolizing these men.....

Chan
03-14-2007, 10:21 AM
These men are not ignorant....They know it's not about man. And I am also pretty sure they are not idolizing these men.....The question was asked:

Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?

It is not because of jadedness that there is no room for preaching personalities, it's because the very notion of preaching personalities is idolatry that there is no room for them in the Church.

Coonskinner
03-14-2007, 10:48 AM
Preaching personalities, like self-esteem and calling praise worship, are SIN!!!

LadyChocolate
03-14-2007, 10:54 AM
Preaching personalities, like self-esteem and calling praise worship, are SIN!!!

Right of course, and you aren't allowed to be proud of your wife/husband or your children....

Chan
03-14-2007, 10:57 AM
Preaching personalities, like self-esteem and calling praise worship, are SIN!!!Yes.

Preaching personalities is idolatry. Self-esteem is pride (which is always sin). Calling praise "worship" bears false witness against the word of God and slaps God in the face by essentially saying to God, "we refuse to humble and prostrate ourselves before you; you're just going to have to accept our praises - our emotional expressions - as being enough."

The Dean
03-14-2007, 10:58 AM
The very notion of "preaching personalities" is really no different than the secular notion of "celebrity" and is really the sin of idolatry. It must NEVER be about the man behind the pulpit but, instead, about the Spirit of God that is supposed to be giving him the words to say.

It must be lonely in your little cynical world. Let's make a deal, Chan: you go on doing whatever people do on your planet and we'll keep enjoying ministries with flavor and personality. It's not idol worship but a multiplicity of ministries that is even borne out in the Bible by showing us the personalities of a quick tempered Simon Peter and a loving nature in John.

The men listed on this thread are all strong Word preachers. They just have personality to their ministries and that is what makes their particular ministry unique.

This is a great thread.

Chan
03-14-2007, 11:13 AM
It must be lonely in your little cynical world. Let's make a deal, Chan: you go on doing whatever people do on your planet and we'll keep enjoying ministries with flavor and personality. It's not idol worship but a multiplicity of ministries that is even borne out in the Bible by showing us the personalities of a quick tempered Simon Peter and a loving nature in John.I assure you that my "world" (the kingdom of Heaven) is not lonely.

The men listed on this thread are all strong Word preachers. They just have personality to their ministries and that is what makes their particular ministry unique.I don't doubt that they're strong word preachers. All the more reason not to elevate them to "personality" or "celebrity" status: it would be contrary to what they preach. It's still idolatry and you spit on the greatness of God as HE works in the lives of these men by elevating these men instead of elevating God.

The Dean
03-14-2007, 11:24 AM
It's still idolatry and you spit on the greatness of God as HE works in the lives of these men by elevating these men instead of elevating God.

Alright. Let me say this slow. Put your analytical mind to the positive side of this discussion and see if this helps.

We are not taking away from God at all. We are honoring God for giving us men whose ministry we enjoy.

Your self consumed superciliousness by saying that any of the righteous people posting how they enjoy the distinctly different anointings that God puts on various men's ministries as spitting on the greatness of God proves but one thing. The only idol being worshipped is the idol you've made out of yourself.

tbpew
03-14-2007, 11:27 AM
Alright. Let me say this slow. Put your analytical mind to the positive side of this discussion and see if this helps.

We are not taking away from God at all. We are honoring God for giving us men whose ministry we enjoy.

Your self consumed superciliousness by saying that any of the righteous people posting how they enjoy the distinctly different anointings that God puts on various men's ministries as spitting on the greatness of God proves but one thing. The only idol being worshipped is the idol you've made out of yourself.

now what we have here is a vivid demonstration of a dichotomy of thought!

Blubayou
03-14-2007, 11:27 AM
I have so enjoyed reading this thread. It has affirmed many things that my husband and I have been talking about in recent months. We have a wonderful pastor and admire and enjoy his preaching. We long for more preachers that preach with passion for the gospel and to be "plowed up" by the Word and for saints to have that life- changing encounter with conviction and repentance.

The Dean
03-14-2007, 11:33 AM
now what we have here is a vivid demonstration of a dichotomy of thought!

Hey, did you just cuss at me?

:igotit

Felicity
03-14-2007, 12:07 PM
Alright. Let me say this slow. Put your analytical mind to the positive side of this discussion and see if this helps.

We are not taking away from God at all. We are honoring God for giving us men whose ministry we enjoy.

Your self consumed superciliousness by saying that any of the righteous people posting how they enjoy the distinctly different anointings that God puts on various men's ministries as spitting on the greatness of God proves but one thing. The only idol being worshipped is the idol you've made out of yourself.Wow! I'm impressed! :D ;)

Felicity
03-14-2007, 12:14 PM
Alright. Let me say this slow. Put your analytical mind to the positive side of this discussion and see if this helps.

We are not taking away from God at all. We are honoring God for giving us men whose ministry we enjoy.

Your self consumed superciliousness by saying that any of the righteous people posting how they enjoy the distinctly different anointings that God puts on various men's ministries as spitting on the greatness of God proves but one thing. The only idol being worshipped is the idol you've made out of yourself.

Wow! I'm impressed! :D ;)*self consumed superciliousness*

Say that 3x fast. LOL! :)

Chan
03-14-2007, 12:52 PM
Alright. Let me say this slow. Put your analytical mind to the positive side of this discussion and see if this helps.

We are not taking away from God at all. We are honoring God for giving us men whose ministry we enjoy.

Your self consumed superciliousness by saying that any of the righteous people posting how they enjoy the distinctly different anointings that God puts on various men's ministries as spitting on the greatness of God proves but one thing. The only idol being worshipped is the idol you've made out of yourself.
But to elevate these men to some sort of celebrity or "personality" status does not honor God and does not honor these men - all of whom I'm sure would balk at the very idea of being elevated in such a manner.

Steadfast
03-14-2007, 01:05 PM
Chan,

Let me jump into the discussion here and tell you that what I referred to in this thread was the personality of the MINISTRY and not so much the personality of the MINISTER.

Their personality will bleed through just as your surely does. If not you would surely be some kind of boring to endure as a ministry.

Chan
03-14-2007, 01:19 PM
Chan,

Let me jump into the discussion here and tell you that what I referred to in this thread was the personality of the MINISTRY and not so much the personality of the MINISTER.

Their personality will bleed through just as your surely does. If not you would surely be some kind of boring to endure as a ministry.To quote the original post:

* Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?

It still isn't about personality (whether of the ministry or the minister), it's about the power of God working through that ministry. My prayer is to decrease as He increases and that certainly doesn't make allowances for my personality to "bleed through."

Rhymis
03-14-2007, 01:38 PM
Steadfast, most of these characters wouldn't know a real preacher if he smacked them across the room. :bliss

Neck
03-14-2007, 01:51 PM
I honestly am not trying to just engage in carnal emulation here, but one thing I have lamented about long and often is the proliferation of echoes among us and the dearth of voices.

Balance is over-rated.

It is usally men who are extreme in some dimension who make things happen and get things done.

Extreme does not mean holding on to contentious points of view just for the sake of holding on.

Bro Coonskinner my comments are not directed at you...

When you speak of the extreme... It is the men who seek change that drive progess in Business, technology, science and Church.

The extreme pace holders need to step out of the "Way".

Steadfast
03-14-2007, 02:42 PM
To quote the original post:

* Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?

It still isn't about personality (whether of the ministry or the minister), it's about the power of God working through that ministry. My prayer is to decrease as He increases and that certainly doesn't make allowances for my personality to "bleed through."

Give it up, Chan. You not only can't see what I'm saying... you don't even want to admit that most all preachers have some kind of personality to their ministry. You remind me much of the story of Procrusties. Maybe you are becoming an idol to yourself.

Chan
03-14-2007, 03:08 PM
Give it up, Chan. You not only can't see what I'm saying... you don't even want to admit that most all preachers have some kind of personality to their ministry. You remind me much of the story of Procrusties. Maybe you are becoming an idol to yourself.Just because most preachers have some kind of personality to their ministry doesn't make it right. I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.

The Dean
03-15-2007, 12:23 AM
Just because most preachers have some kind of personality to their ministry doesn't make it right. I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.

Please tell me you're kidding. You actually think there should be NO personality in preaching? It's wrong to have a personality if your a preacher? How -------------------- nevermind.

You are seriously out there.

rrford
03-15-2007, 12:25 AM
Please tell me you're kidding. You actually think there should be NO personality in preaching? It's wrong to have a personality if your a preacher? How -------------------- nevermind.

You are seriously out there.

Uhm, what is the word I am looking for...?:slaphappy

The Dean
03-15-2007, 12:29 AM
Uhm, what is the word I am looking for...?:slaphappy

I think this Chan is serious in saying that it's wrong for a preacher to have a personality to his ministry. I've never heard anything like that in my life.

It actually goes against scripture in that it described the traits of many of the Bible preachers.

I don't think there IS a word for that.

BoredOutOfMyMind
03-15-2007, 12:46 AM
I don't think there IS a word for that.

Vulcan?

NO emotions-bad hair dohttp://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/plank/vulcan/spock2.GIF

The Dean
03-15-2007, 12:51 AM
Vulcan?

NO emotions-bad hair dohttp://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/plank/vulcan/spock2.GIF

Doesn't look like hair over his ears is going to be a problem!

Could you imagine hearing him preach without emotions or personality?

So much for the weeping prophet, the dancing king-seer and the sword swinging Simon Peter.

:grampa

BoredOutOfMyMind
03-15-2007, 01:01 AM
Doesn't look like hair over his ears is going to be a problem!

Could you imagine hearing him preach without emotions or personality?

So much for the weeping prophet, the dancing king-seer and the sword swinging Simon Peter.

:grampa

I have seen the mind-melt death grip at the altar before-

Thankfully not on me!

The Dean
03-15-2007, 01:12 AM
I have seen the mind-melt death grip at the altar before-

Thankfully not on me!

Ouch, now THAT sounds serious. :slaphappy

Coonskinner
03-15-2007, 06:08 AM
Chan,

This may come as a shock to you, but I have noticed a certain taint of personality in your posts.

And while I do not wish to be offensive, I have to also inform you that you seem to have a hefty dose of self-esteem.

These are just a couple of matters you might want to give some attention to.

rgcraig
03-15-2007, 06:23 AM
Chan,

This may come as a shock to you, but I have noticed a certain taint of personality in your posts.

And while I do not wish to be offensive, I have to also inform you that you seem to have a hefty dose of self-esteem.

These are just a couple of matters you might want to give some attention to.

:slaphappy :happydance :tiphat

Chan
03-15-2007, 09:14 AM
Doesn't look like hair over his ears is going to be a problem!

Could you imagine hearing him preach without emotions or personality?

So much for the weeping prophet, the dancing king-seer and the sword swinging Simon Peter.

:grampaWhen Jonathan Edwards preached his famous sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, he read it quietly in almost monotone. Because the sermon was clearly from God, people in the pews were grabbing onto the posts holding up the ceiling for fear that God would open up the floor and swallow them up right then and there.

It isn't about our emotions, it's about what God chooses to do through us.

Chan
03-15-2007, 09:16 AM
Chan,

This may come as a shock to you, but I have noticed a certain taint of personality in your posts.

And while I do not wish to be offensive, I have to also inform you that you seem to have a hefty dose of self-esteem.

These are just a couple of matters you might want to give some attention to.Your subjective opinion does not necessarily have basis in fact. And, yes, you do wish to be offensive - otherwise you wouldn't have made it a point to make these observations publicly.

Chan
03-15-2007, 09:21 AM
Please tell me you're kidding. You actually think there should be NO personality in preaching? It's wrong to have a personality if your a preacher? How -------------------- nevermind.

You are seriously out there.Preaching isn't about the twisting of words or the tone or "style" one uses, it's about the power of GOD! It isn't about the rise and fall of one's preaching volume and it isn't about the expression of emotion. It's about the power of GOD! FOLLOW PAUL'S EXAMPLE!

"And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

Personality and "style" are not demonstrations of the Spirit and of power!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy fire and brimstone type preaching. But let us not mistake preaching style for the Spirit of God.

Rhymis
03-15-2007, 09:39 AM
I think Chany must have read my book, "How to pump yourself up with your own air." :tiphat

Bishop1
03-15-2007, 10:26 AM
I think Chany must have read my book, "How to pump yourself up with your own air." :tiphat




OR
ONE OF THE BEE ALTITUDES

" BLESSED IS HE
- - THAT TOOTETH HIS OWN HORN -
FOR IF HE DOETH NOT TOOT IT
- - - HOW THEN HOW SHALL IT BE TOOTETED " -



Bishop1
:beatdeadhorse

Steadfast
03-15-2007, 11:00 AM
OR
ONE OF THE BEE ALTITUDES

" BLESSED IS HE
- - THAT TOOTETH HIS OWN HORN -
FOR IF HE DOETH NOT TOOT IT
- - - HOW THEN HOW SHALL IT BE TOOTETED " -



Bishop1
:beatdeadhorse

:slaphappy

Steadfast
03-15-2007, 11:12 AM
...it isn't about the expression of emotion. It's about the power of GOD! FOLLOW PAUL'S EXAMPLE!

"And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

This is what we call "Hung by the tongue". Yea, no emotion, traits or anything.... blah, blah, blah... But consider your OWN scripture:

"And I was with you (I WAS AMONG THE CHURCH) in weakness (TRAIT), and in fear (EMOTION) and in much trembling (EMOTION)."

Chancellor, I just don't think you're going to win with an argument like you're proposing. Granted, some are flamboyant and God can't be pleased with that. But if you're going to say that preaching that has personality is wrong then evidently your wrong.

mizpeh
03-15-2007, 11:20 AM
Preaching isn't about the twisting of words or the tone or "style" one uses, it's about the power of GOD! It isn't about the rise and fall of one's preaching volume and it isn't about the expression of emotion. It's about the power of GOD! FOLLOW PAUL'S EXAMPLE!

"And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

Personality and "style" are not demonstrations of the Spirit and of power!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy fire and brimstone type preaching. But let us not mistake preaching style for the Spirit of God.


Chan,

For what it's worth, I agree with you. Preaching is about the power and annointing of God and not men's wisdom if it is to be truly effective although the word of God will do whatever God desires it to do if planted in a hungry heart no matter who the preacher is.

Some said Paul was weak in presence and his speech contemptible....even then a man mightily used of God was looked down on for his appearance and lack of oratory skills. Then there was Apollos an eloquent speaker and mighty in the scripture. Men have different personalities, thank God for variety, and people tend to like some more than others. The important thing is, as you say, the Spirit who works through these men despite their personalities.

Chan
03-15-2007, 11:24 AM
Chan,

For what it's worth, I agree with you. Preaching is about the power and annointing of God and not men's wisdom if it is to be truly effective although the word of God will do whatever God desires it to do if planted in a hungry heart no matter who the preacher is.

Some said Paul was weak in presence and his speech contemptible....even then a man mightily used of God was looked down on for his appearance and lack of oratory skills. Then there was Apollos an eloquent speaker and mighty in the scripture. Men have different personalities, thank God for variety, and people tend to like some more than others. The important thing is, as you say, the Spirit who works through these men despite their personalities.Yes. God very often works through us despite ourselves.

Chan
03-15-2007, 11:25 AM
This is what we call "Hung by the tongue". Yea, no emotion, traits or anything.... blah, blah, blah... But consider your OWN scripture:

"And I was with you (I WAS AMONG THE CHURCH) in weakness (TRAIT), and in fear (EMOTION) and in much trembling (EMOTION)."

Chancellor, I just don't think you're going to win with an argument like you're proposing. Granted, some are flamboyant and God can't be pleased with that. But if you're going to say that preaching that has personality is wrong then evidently your wrong.If you think I'm proposing no emotion then maybe you need to go back and actually read what I wrote - especially the last part of the post to which you were responding:

Personality and "style" are not demonstrations of the Spirit and of power!

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy fire and brimstone type preaching. But let us not mistake preaching style for the Spirit of God.

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 07:14 AM
This is too good a thread to let die.

Jerry Wayne Dillon--Definitely a unique personality. In a movement where intensity isn't exactly uncommon, JWD is wired for 220. His delivery is radical, but don't let that fool you; there is substance in his preaching. He is definitely a personality that stands out from the crowd.

David Shatwell--DS has a tremendously versatile ministry, and is one of the most unpredictable preachers I know. He is a very capable and powerful Word preacher, but he seems to have a penchant for defying the conventional wisdom and still hitting a home run. Very sensitive to the leading of the Spirit, he is perhaps less affected by crowd pressure and the pressure to "perform" than anyone I know. There is always a deep move of God when he gets done.

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 08:04 AM
Hearkening back to the original premise and post of the thread, I do think there is less originality among preachers of this generation than the last.

Verbal Bean, C.R. Free, Joe Duke, I.H. Terry, Carl Ballastero, C.W. Shue (Now there is an original for you)...the likes of these men seem to be absent on the landscape.

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 08:06 AM
Rhymis, i see you here...wouldn't you say that C.W. Shue fit the description of an original? ;)

RevDWW
03-17-2007, 08:07 AM
Hearkening back to the original premise and post of the thread, I do think there is less originality among preachers of this generation than the last.

Verbal Bean, C.R. Free, Joe Duke, I.H. Terry, Carl Ballastero, C.W. Shue (Now there is an original for you)...the likes of these men seem to be absent on the landscape.

What would you say it is that makes them unique and those of today not unique?

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 08:14 AM
What would you say it is that makes them unique and those of today not unique?

I don't think we can totally broad brush any generation, and there are some men today, some of whose names I have listed, who are definitely not anybody's clones.

But to answer your question, I think there are a combination of factors.

The environment of political correctness that has to a degree infiltrated the church is part of it.

The "seeker-sensitive" thinking that some tout as the key to growth is also a factor.

My generation seems to have more of a herd mentality, a mindset I blame somewhat on the influence of television, which has dumbed down our people and geared them toward passive learning.

Reading books affects the mind and the inagination in an entirely different way than watching tv, which is passive learning. This dulls the ability for individualistic, creative thinking.

This "herd mentality" has resulted in a generation that will engage in worship with a crowd around the altar, but shrinks from solitary prayer.

I'm sure there are other factors, but these are a few.

Annie
03-17-2007, 08:23 AM
I don't think we can totally broad brush any generation, and there are some men today, some of whose names I have listed, who are definitely not anybody's clones.

But to answer your question, I think there are a combination of factors.

The environment of political correctness that has to a degree infiltrated the church is part of it.

The "seeker-sensitive" thinking that some tout as the key to growth is also a factor.

My generation seems to have more of a herd mentality, a mindset I blame somewhat on the influence of television, which has dumbed down our people and geared them toward passive learning.

Reading books affects the mind and the inagination in an entirely different way than watching tv, which is passive learning. This dulls the ability for individualistic, creative thinking.

This "herd mentality" has resulted in a generation that will engage in worship with a crowd around the altar, but shrinks from solitary prayer.

I'm sure there are other factors, but these are a few.


My God- you hit the proverbial nail on the head, sir!!!!! As little as three years ago, you could walk into church and hear voices raised in prayer...now all you hear is NOISE in a large percentage of churches...not all, thank God.

Rhymis
03-17-2007, 08:35 AM
Rhymis, i see you here...wouldn't you say that C.W. Shue fit the description of an original? ;)


Original? Let's just say there was no mold from which he was cast -- he was just poured out on the table and freehanded, :winkgrin

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 08:35 AM
My God- you hit the proverbial nail on the head, sir!!!!! As little as three years ago, you could walk into church and hear voices raised in prayer...now all you hear is NOISE in a large percentage of churches...not all, thank God.

Annie, last night was youth service where I pastor, as is every Friday night.

Periodically, we have "Pray Through" night. last night, for nearly two hours, there was prayer and seeking God.

If I can teach the saints I pastor to pray, it will go a long way toward taking care of everything else.

If i can't teach them and inspire them to pray, it doesn't much matter what else I manage to teach them.

RevDWW
03-17-2007, 08:37 AM
I don't think we can totally broad brush any generation, and there are some men today, some of whose names I have listed, who are definitely not anybody's clones.

But to answer your question, I think there are a combination of factors.

The environment of political correctness that has to a degree infiltrated the church is part of it.

The "seeker-sensitive" thinking that some tout as the key to growth is also a factor.

My generation seems to have more of a herd mentality, a mindset I blame somewhat on the influence of television, which has dumbed down our people and geared them toward passive learning.

Reading books affects the mind and the inagination in an entirely different way than watching tv, which is passive learning. This dulls the ability for individualistic, creative thinking.

This "herd mentality" has resulted in a generation that will engage in worship with a crowd around the altar, but shrinks from solitary prayer.

I'm sure there are other factors, but these are a few.

I tend to agree with you. I love reading, and painting with a paint roller here, television and movies can not hold a candle to a vivid imagination.

If by seeker sensitive you mean being careful not to hurt a seekers feelings or self esteem, then I say we need to be more Spirit Sensitive, so sensitive in fact that the preaching is anointed and it leads the seeker right to an alter of repentance and into finding Jesus. I think it would be good to make sure that the Saints know that there will be a service to which they can bring the lost and that they will hear the Gospel and have a wide open alter service.

Rhymis
03-17-2007, 08:52 AM
Original? Let's just say there was no mold from which he was cast -- he was just poured out on the table and freehanded, :winkgrin


Too bad we don't see more of this today. :grampa

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 08:52 AM
Too bad we don't see more of this today. :grampa

That is the truth.

LaVonne
03-17-2007, 08:55 AM
Annie, last night was youth service where I pastor, as is every Friday night.

Periodically, we have "Pray Through" night. last night, for nearly two hours, there was prayer and seeking God.

If I can teach the saints I pastor to pray, it will go a long way toward taking care of everything else.

If i can't teach them and inspire them to pray, it doesn't much matter what else I manage to teach them.

That's awesome!

Where we are moving to, they have youth service every Friday night as well. Our boys are so looking forward to this as they have not had one since July!

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 08:58 AM
That's awesome!

Where we are moving to, they have youth service every Friday night as well. Our boys are so looking forward to this as they have not had one since July!

There were several unsaved young people--teenagers, who were there last night.

The daughter of a denominal pastor in our city was there, repenting and seeking the holy Ghost. She comes almost every Friday night.

I am not against doing fun things with young folks, and we try to add a balance of that.

But the anointing and power of God will still draw the hungry all by Itself.

These Pray Through nights are strictly that--just prayer. But the kids love it and come.

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 08:59 AM
I believe in creating a "Culture of Prayer" in a church.

LaVonne
03-17-2007, 09:00 AM
There were several unsaved young people--teenagers, who were there last night.

The daughter of a denominal pastor in our city was there, repenting and seeking the holy Ghost. She comes almost every Friday night.

I am not against doing fun things with young folks, and we try to add a balance of that.

But the anointing and power of god will still draw the hungry all by Itself.

These Pray Through nights are strictly that--just prayer. But the kids love it and come.

That's awesome Coonskinner...sounds like you are doing the right thing...I just love it!!!

Rhymis
03-17-2007, 09:03 AM
Prayer cannot be legislated, it must be livi-slated.

RevDWW
03-17-2007, 09:03 AM
I believe in creating a "Culture of Prayer" in a church.

Amen and Amen!!!!

John Atkinson
03-17-2007, 09:05 AM
I believe in creating a "Culture of Prayer" in a church.
Yup, Which would be a vital part of the culture of Christ. Folks somehow just don't get it. When we are born again we abandon our natural culture and become a part of the kingdom of God culture.

It is a funny parallel. We have all these different cultures in the USA, all trying to preserve what they were in the old country. That is fine.

But the sad truth is, too many people are trying to bring the culture of the world into the church. And that is not fine.

LaVonne
03-17-2007, 09:05 AM
I believe in creating a "Culture of Prayer" in a church.

our 13 year old is very sensitive when it comes to prayer...but not having a Youth Group does take it's toll on a young person. He is anxious to get moved...he and the pastor's son are already good buddies!

RevDWW
03-17-2007, 09:09 AM
There were several unsaved young people--teenagers, who were there last night.

The daughter of a denominal pastor in our city was there, repenting and seeking the holy Ghost. She comes almost every Friday night.

I am not against doing fun things with young folks, and we try to add a balance of that.

But the anointing and power of God will still draw the hungry all by Itself.

These Pray Through nights are strictly that--just prayer. But the kids love it and come.

That's it!

Someone was telling me that his church (he attends the BIG baptist in town) does not have anything geared for the teenagers. POA has a Wednesday night service just for that in the old auditorium while adults have service in the main sanctuary. I mentioned I saw his son at one of those services (attendance runs around 500) and he said a lot of the baptist teens attend.

Rhymis
03-17-2007, 09:09 AM
It's "showmanship" that is making a "sinking-ship" today. :)

Michael Phelps
03-17-2007, 09:14 AM
As it came up on another thread I'll post it here. It seems to fit into the context of what my original post said:
Could this generation accept the conviction preaching of an O. R. Fauss should a man arise with that kind of personality? Or would we simply turn our noses up and say, "I just don't think we need that kind of preaching anymore."

Have we stripped away the ability of good men with strong personalities to become effective in our own lives?

It would be interesting to hear more Preacher's names who have been strong in personality and in preaching. We could come up with names like...
Stoneking
Godair
Billy Cole

Then again, I don't know if we could make a sufficient list of 'new' preachers who fit into that category. I'm not sure there are many...
Mark Morgan?
Matt Maddix?

Johnny James.

Barb
03-17-2007, 09:16 AM
Annie, last night was youth service where I pastor, as is every Friday night.

Periodically, we have "Pray Through" night. last night, for nearly two hours, there was prayer and seeking God.

If I can teach the saints I pastor to pray, it will go a long way toward taking care of everything else.

If i can't teach them and inspire them to pray, it doesn't much matter what else I manage to teach them.

CS, is youth service just for the youth?! When I was a young'un, everyone went to Friday night service...pastor and everyone...it was no different than any other service.

It's not like that here any more...

LaVonne
03-17-2007, 09:22 AM
CS, is youth service just for the youth?! When I was a young'un, everyone went to Friday night service...pastor and everyone...it was no different than any other service.

It's not like that here any more...

That's how it's been here...but I think it needs to be just for the youth...they need their own service! jmo

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 09:56 AM
CS, is youth service just for the youth?! When I was a young'un, everyone went to Friday night service...pastor and everyone...it was no different than any other service.

It's not like that here any more...


Everyone is welcome, but not everyone comes.

I don't put major pressure on adults to come.

Barb
03-17-2007, 10:00 AM
That's how it's been here...but I think it needs to be just for the youth...they need their own service! jmo

Everyone is welcome, but not everyone comes.

I don't put major pressure on adults to come.

Yes, I know and suppose you are right, but I sure remember those services from back in the day...I wasn't even saved, but thought they were really something.

:dunno Maybe I'm just showing my age today...

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 10:13 AM
Yes, I know and suppose you are right, but I sure remember those services from back in the day...I wasn't even saved, but thought they were really something.

:dunno Maybe I'm just showing my age today...

This is what I told my youth pastor--when the services get hot enough, the crowds would get bigger.

Ultimately, my goal is to have more comprehensive attendance, but I have not yet felt to make an issue of it.

The attendance is growing.

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 10:14 AM
Could it be if there were more praying personalities, there would be more preaching personalities?

mizpeh
03-17-2007, 10:58 AM
Could it be if there were more praying personalities, there would be more preaching personalities?

God bless your efforts to lead folks to a closer walk with the Lord.

I feel the presence of the Lord just reading your last few posts.:bliss

Ron
03-17-2007, 11:08 AM
Annie, last night was youth service where I pastor, as is every Friday night.

Periodically, we have "Pray Through" night. last night, for nearly two hours, there was prayer and seeking God.

If I can teach the saints I pastor to pray, it will go a long way toward taking care of everything else.

If i can't teach them and inspire them to pray, it doesn't much matter what else I manage to teach them.

I agree!
Teaching youth/new converts how to have a "personal" walk with God is esential for them to thrive and grow and survive in the Kingdom of God.

Ron
03-17-2007, 11:09 AM
Yup, Which would be a vital part of the culture of Christ. Folks somehow just don't get it. When we are born again we abandon our natural culture and become a part of the kingdom of God culture.

It is a funny parallel. We have all these different cultures in the USA, all trying to preserve what they were in the old country. That is fine.

But the sad truth is, too many people are trying to bring the culture of the world into the church. And that is not fine.

Two very good points Bro Atkinson.
It is the same here in Canada.

Felicity
03-17-2007, 12:09 PM
I think the answers to why we see less individuality and fewer "original type personalities" amongst apostolic preachers today lie more within the apostolic movement than outside. There is NO DOUBT at all but what the earlier generations were born at a time when there was much hardship. Many were born into and came out of poverty. Hardship tends to make people more resilient and tough out of necessity

There also was much less of a herd mentality within the OP movement back in the early days. It was much smaller back in the day when men like CB Dudley, Verbal Bean, Shue, Pugh, and some of the others who've been mentioned got saved and called into ministry.

Many of the men we think of were 1st generation OPs and the effect that comes with being 3rd, 4th and even 5th didn't touch them as it effects OPs today.

They were originals and didn't have anyone much to pattern themselves after. They were who they were - such as they were - and were tutelaged for the most part by the Holy Ghost.

Our Bible schools have churned out many many preachers over the last few decades. They pattern themselves after their mentors and leaders, develop the same preaching styles and have been encouraged to all think and believe and do things the same way. There's a herd mentality within the OP movement and the cookie cutter dynamic is huge.

I listen to a lot of these guys and they all sound the same. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but many of them are just kind of bland and blah for the most part. Anointing minimizes the bland/blah-ness - thank God for that - but even anointing is scarce with a lot of these guys. In my opinion. :)

I grew up around preachers who I think for the most part were individuals and rough hewn kind of guys. RG Priest, Allison Post, CB Dudley, Wynn Stairs, Bill Drost, Paul MacDonald ........ etc. These men were strong, tough ....... definitely individuals who weren't afraid to stand up for what they believed .... even when or if it went against the status quo.

But I expect the younger guys today growing up in the church and perhaps later entering the ministry will say the same of some of us.

Truly Blessed
03-17-2007, 12:16 PM
There were several unsaved young people--teenagers, who were there last night.

The daughter of a denominal pastor in our city was there, repenting and seeking the holy Ghost. She comes almost every Friday night.

I am not against doing fun things with young folks, and we try to add a balance of that.

But the anointing and power of God will still draw the hungry all by Itself.

These Pray Through nights are strictly that--just prayer. But the kids love it and come.Believe it or not, there are denominal folks who have a hunger for God and spiritual things. I have just returned from participating in a Leadership Conference in Egypt that was inter-denominational. You could not tell the Presbyterian, Baptists, and Pentecostals apart when it came to their worship and reaching out to God. It's a Pentecostal misconception that denominal church people have no interest in spiritual growth. My experience in the past 10 years has shown me otherwise.

Felicity
03-17-2007, 12:22 PM
Could it be if there were more praying personalities, there would be more preaching personalities?:grampa

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 12:27 PM
Believe it or not, there are denominal folks who have a hunger for God and spiritual things. I have just returned from participating in a Leadership Conference in Egypt that was inter-denominational. You could not tell the Presbyterian, Baptists, and Pentecostals apart when it came to their worship and reaching out to God. It's a Pentecostal misconception that denominal church people have no interest in spiritual growth. My experience in the past 10 years has shown me otherwise.

This is absolutely right.

After we baptized two AoG youth pastors in Jesus Name , the local AoG presbyter invited me out for lunch.:)

he lectured me a little on the carrot vs. the stick method...not sure what the point was.:)

I just listened politely and was kind to the old fellow.

Coonskinner
03-17-2007, 12:28 PM
:grampa

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?:)

Truly Blessed
03-17-2007, 12:39 PM
Most Pentecostals in North America are simply too distracted to be focused as they should on spiritual matters. The world has far more attraction than it should on most of us. Maybe if we had less affluence we would have more when it comes to spiritual passion and devotion to God. It seems that in those nations where they have little there is much more spiritual fervor among the churches.