Massive shakeup going on!

[Minister_WD]

Brother Phillips (pastor in shady grove and a district presbyter in Louisiana) has pulled his church out of the org. He is very conservitive and I suspect this is an indication he is OUT.



2. Wayne Cardwell from DeQuincy has been told by his church that he can leave the UPCI but the CHURCH ISNT....

AND .....


3. ANOTHER CHURCH has told their Pastor that he can leave but THE CHURCH IS STAYING! And that man is CRAWFORD COON!



.

[SecretWarrior]

Interesting turn of events!I don't think that some of these pastors took into account that many of their members have deep roots in the UPC.



.

[Lacey]

Interesting turn of events!I don't think that some of these pastors took into account that many of their members have deep roots in the UPC.



.

I think that most pastors knew where there church family stood on the issues at hand, before they (the pastors) decided to pull out or stay in, the UPC.

[KarenJo]

If these men want to leave then they should go but I don't think it's fair to pull the congregations out. ESPECIALLY if the church was built with the help of the UPCI and their programs. This is a problem with the ego of some Pastors/Ministers. It's MY CHURCH instead of saying it is Gods church. I know that Pastors have to do what they feel is right but the church body needs to have a say in what is going on. I've seen too many "daughter" works start with the support of a church and somewhere along the way, the "Pastor" decides to pull out of the Organization or they want to go independant. Whatever the reason, if the group was started under the umbrella of the local church, then they need to turn it back to the local church and go start their own work. Just my opinion...

[rgcraig]

If these men want to leave then they should go but I don't think it's fair to pull the congregations out. ESPECIALLY if the church was built with the help of the UPCI and their programs. This is a problem with the ego of some Pastors/Ministers. It's MY CHURCH instead of saying it is Gods church. I know that Pastors have to do what they feel is right but the church body needs to have a say in what is going on. I've seen too many "daughter" works start with the support of a church and somewhere along the way, the "Pastor" decides to pull out of the Organization or they want to go independant. Whatever the reason, if the group was started under the umbrella of the local church, then they need to turn it back to the local church and go start their own work. Just my opinion...

Where were you the other day when I started a thread "Divide and Conquer or Just Divide"?

[revrandy]

Interesting if true....

[Steve Epley]

Time will tell.

[rgcraig]

Time will tell.

Glad you are still here for the next few days to keep the board balanced. With all those conservatives in Tulsa this board might have tipped too far to the liberal side.

I bet we'll have TONS of guests in the next few days checking in to see what's going on!

[Pressing-On]

OH NO! I won't be home today. I'm going to die!!! My life is going to crash around me!!!




























Ooops forgot - Jesus the same - yesterday - TODAY - and FOREVER!!!!

Amen!

[Jann]

Brother Phillips (pastor in shady grove and a district presbyter in Louisiana) has pulled his church out of the org.

I stand to be corrected, but I was not aware that Shady Grove UPC was no longer in Section 7, where a very dear and close friend of mine LB IS the presbyter.

[Steve Epley]

Men from the CAF are going to be doing reporting like MOW reported at Columbus I think? I will report some probably not every post.

[Ferd]

I stand to be corrected, but I was not aware that Shady Grove UPC was no longer in Section 7, where a very dear and close friend of mine LB IS the presbyter.

Jann, i believe there are 2 Shady Groves in Louisiana. (I could be wrong)

[timlan2057]

I stand to be corrected, but I was not aware that Shady Grove UPC was no longer in Section 7, where a very dear and close friend of mine LB IS the presbyter.

Shady Grove (DeRidder) was pastored for many years by Wilbern Ashworth, the longtime presbyter of Section 6.

I'm frankly surprised that Phillips had the stroke to pull the church out.

Shady Grove (Jena) was pastored in the past by Louis Green and Jim Vanover. Dan Davis pastored there before he went to Baton Rouge. C. D. Thornton came out of retirement and pastors there now.

The Jena church is in Section 7, where Leland Briggs is now presbyter after G. A. Mangun retired from the district board after being on it some 150 years or so.

[revrandy]

I would really like to know if the Crawford Coon info is correct...and how it would work...for the Pastor to be Non-UPC but the church to be UPC????

Unless they were planning on him leaving???

It doesn't make much sense to me...

[George]

I would really like to know if the Crawford Coon info is correct...and how it would work...for the Pastor to be Non-UPC but the church to be UPC????

Unless they were planning on him leaving???

It doesn't make much sense to me...

Sounds like they are letting him know they are willing to lose him as their pastor.

[Fab]

Isn't it true if a church is affiliated with the UPCI that the pastor must be licensed with them?

Also, if a presbyter pulls his church out, should he be allowed to represent the UPC on a district level?

[George]

A pastor in Arkansas wanted to leave UPC and told them about the TV issue and how he wanted to leave but had his church vote their feelings on secret ballot. They voted against leaving. He was disappointed but he is now staying.

[timlan2057]

Brother Phillips (pastor in shady grove and a district presbyter in Louisiana) has pulled his church out of the org. He is very conservitive and I suspect this is an indication he is OUT.



2. Wayne Cardwell from DeQuincy has been told by his church that he can leave the UPCI but the CHURCH ISNT....

AND .....


3. ANOTHER CHURCH has told their Pastor that he can leave but THE CHURCH IS STAYING! And that man is CRAWFORD COON!



.

Interesting.

If true, NOW we'll see how loudly money talks and how much conviction some of these preachers REALLY have.

Will Cardwell and Coon say: "I must stand behind my convictions and I'll go start another church somewhere - or at least try to split off and pastor the split"?

Or, when they think of the tithes and income left behind will they say: "Uh ... maybe I don't need to leave the UPC after all."

This would be devastating politically to any preachers in this trap where their churches are rising up.

Looking back, a lot of these "standards" and preachers vying to see who could preach it more "hard" and "straight" was the result of peer pressure and who could brag the most out under the campmeeting concession stand or the conference halls.

To be seen as too weak to overcome a "carnal" church board and pull a church out and join the rest of the Tulsa gang?

Wow.

THAT would be emasculating.

Anyway, kudos to these churches for being aware and standing up to what really, just amounts to foolishness.

I know both Cardwell and Coon well.

Cardwell's dad, Thomas C., was the longtime pastor of that church, a member of the Louisiana District Board for many years and as fine a man as you'd ever want to meet.

I liked Wayne. He preached for me and we played softball together at youth camp.

Wayne's dad seemed more moderate but Wayne seemed to be more influenced by his more radical brother-in-law, Steve McMullen.

The reports I'm hearing from some sources in DeQuincy, where I have many friends and now-by-divorce ex-family members, is that First UPC is losing quite a few members to Hennigan's.

Coon?

I'm surprised he was involved with this Tulsa thing anyway.

Once again .... if this is true, then kudos to these church boards for recognizing foolishness for what it is.

[rgcraig]

A pastor in Arkansas wanted to leave UPC and told them about the TV issue and how he wanted to leave but had his church vote their feelings on secret ballot. They voted against leaving. He was disappointed but he is now staying.

I believe that's the correct way to handle it. I started a thread a couple days ago regarding a pastor that in just the past few weeks has been changing all the "rules" and he's going to Tulsa. The church is confused and his stance is if you don't like it you can leave.

They've been there a lot longer than him, so why is it his decision?

[CC1]

I would really like to know if the Crawford Coon info is correct...and how it would work...for the Pastor to be Non-UPC but the church to be UPC????

Unless they were planning on him leaving???

It doesn't make much sense to me...

Perhaps the church is not officially affiliated and the members are just expressing that they wish to continue to be considered UPC and participate in UPC functions, etc. even if their pastor leaves. If they are affiliated then by rule a non UPC pastor cannot pastor.

[CC1]

I believe that's the correct way to handle it. I started a thread a couple days ago regarding a pastor that in just the past few weeks has been changing all the "rules" and he's going to Tulsa. The church is confused and his stance is if you don't like it you can leave.

They've been there a lot longer than him, so why is it his decision?

So sad to see Deacon Blue head down that path....... LOL!!!! J/K

BTW - Where is the Deacon?

[rgcraig]

So sad to see Deacon Blue head down that path....... LOL!!!! J/K

BTW - Where is the Deacon?

He started a thread yesterday - - he's working and pastoring, so he's not able to be here as often.

[Ferd]

Interesting.

If true, NOW we'll see how loudly money talks and how much conviction some of these preachers REALLY have.

Will Cardwell and Coon say: "I must stand behind my convictions and I'll go start another church somewhere - or at least try to split off and pastor the split"?

Or, when they think of the tithes and income left behind will they say: "Uh ... maybe I don't need to leave the UPC after all."

This would be devastating politically to any preachers in this trap where their churches are rising up.

Looking back, a lot of these "standards" and preachers vying to see who could preach it more "hard" and "straight" was the result of peer pressure and who could brag the most out under the campmeeting concession stand or the conference halls.

To be seen as too weak to overcome a "carnal" church board and pull a church out and join the rest of the Tulsa gang?

Wow.

THAT would be emasculating.

Anyway, kudos to these churches for being aware and standing up to what really, just amounts to foolishness.

I know both Cardwell and Coon well.

Cardwell's dad, Thomas C., was the longtime pastor of that church, a member of the Louisiana District Board for many years and as fine a man as you'd ever want to meet.

I liked Wayne. He preached for me and we played softball together at youth camp.

Wayne's dad seemed more moderate but Wayne seemed to be more influenced by his more radical brother-in-law, Steve McMullen.

The reports I'm hearing from some sources in DeQuincy, where I have many friends and now-by-divorce ex-family members, is that First UPC is losing quite a few members to Hennigan's.

Coon?

I'm surprised he was involved with this Tulsa thing anyway.

Once again .... if this is true, then kudos to these church boards for recognizing foolishness for what it is.


The DeQuincy deal is as odd a situation as one can name. I dont know how or why but Cardwells church and Hennigans church are about a half mile from each other.

It has been this way for decades. When my mom was a little girl, she and her family lived right next door to the church now pastored by Cardwell, and went to the church now pastored by Hennigan.

[CC1]

The DeQuincy deal is as odd a situation as one can name. I dont know how or why but Cardwells church and Hennigans church are about a half mile from each other.

It has been this way for decades. When my mom was a little girl, she and her family lived right next door to the church now pastored by cardwell, and went to the church now pastored by Hennigan.

Thats Louisiana UPC!!!! A church at every bend in the road. More splits than the ends of a UPC woman's uncut hair.

I have often wondered how mucy more effective Oneness Pentecost could be if the pettiness could be put aside and the three or four small churches in some of these relatiively small towns or rural areas could join together and pool their resources.

[Ferd]

Thats Louisiana UPC!!!! A church at every bend in the road. More splits than the ends of a UPC woman's uncut hair.

I have often wondered how mucy more effective Oneness Pentecost could be if the pettiness could be put aside and the three or four small churches in some of these relatiively small towns or rural areas could join together and pool their resources.

dot dot dot... etc...

uhm...


check Alexandria....


for all the mumbling about how they strong arm others and keep everyone else out of "their town", the Manguns are very effective!

[CC1]

dot dot dot... etc...

uhm...


check Alexandria....


for all the mumbling about how they strong arm others and keep everyone else out of "their town", the Manguns are very effective!

You are correct. I don't have a problem with rules limiting the number of churches in small towns but where it irks me is when a pastor will fight to keep another church form being started in a larger town.

Studies have shown that the vast majority of people will not travel far to attend church so there shouldn't be a problem having a church that is at least 15 minutes by car from another one in towns.

It is those little spot in the road towns with three or four UPC churches plus one or two independent ones that drives me nuts.

You are correct that the Manguns have demonstrated what can be done with concentrated resources and good leadership.

[Apprehended]

The DeQuincy deal is as odd a situation as one can name. I dont know how or why but Cardwells church and Hennigans church are about a half mile from each other.

It has been this way for decades. When my mom was a little girl, she and her family lived right next door to the church now pastored by Cardwell, and went to the church now pastored by Hennigan.

Truly amazing.

Going West from there just about a half mile is another independent ultra-con church pastored by Braniff.

Splits split.

[MissBrattified]

The DeQuincy deal is as odd a situation as one can name. I dont know how or why but Cardwells church and Hennigans church are about a half mile from each other.

It has been this way for decades. When my mom was a little girl, she and her family lived right next door to the church now pastored by Cardwell, and went to the church now pastored by Hennigan.

They both run a comfortable number, too.

For that matter...everything in DeQuincy is about a half mile apart.

Fausto's sounds good....

[MissBrattified]

Truly amazing.

Going West from there just about a half mile is another independent ultra-con church pastored by Braniff.

Splits split.

Braneff.

His church isn't the result of any kind of split.

[MissBrattified]

You are correct. I don't have a problem with rules limiting the number of churches in small towns but where it irks me is when a pastor will fight to keep another church form being started in a larger town.

Studies have shown that the vast majority of people will not travel far to attend church so there shouldn't be a problem having a church that is at least 15 minutes by car from another one in towns.

It is those little spot in the road towns with three or four UPC churches plus one or two independent ones that drives me nuts.

You are correct that the Manguns have demonstrated what can be done with concentrated resources and good leadership.

In DeQuincy, all three churches have fairly good memberships. (First Apostolic is the smallest, membership-wise.)

[Apprehended]

Braneff.

His church isn't the result of any kind of split.

He has a beautiful building.

Actually, I've preached there a couple of times.

Did he start that church himself?

[MissBrattified]

He has a beautiful building.

Actually, I've preached there a couple of times.

Did he start that church himself?

Yes. When he first started, they were in a tiny little building. The new church was built (and paid for) in the late 80's I think. When did you preach there?

[TrmptPraise]

Oh how I miss Louisiana. I was born in a little town in north central LA called Bastrop. I believe there are at least 3 or four churches of Pentecostal flavor there. Although the town had built up over the years, it is now in decline due to some paper mill shut downs.

[MissBrattified]

Oh how I miss Louisiana. I was born in a little town in north central LA called Bastrop. I believe there are at least 3 or four churches of Pentecostal flavor there. Although the town had built up over the years, it is now in decline due to some paper mill shut downs.

Oh, how I miss Louisiana FOOD. :D

[TrmptPraise]

Oh, how I miss Louisiana FOOD. :D

Well, at least I still have family down there, so I have an excuse to go get some. You absolutely correct. Hmmmm Gumbo.:rolleyes:

[MissBrattified]

Well, at least I still have family down there, so I have an excuse to go get some. You absolutely correct. Hmmmm Gumbo.:rolleyes:

I was thinking "Hmmmm Crawfish!" :woot

[CC1]

Oh, how I miss Louisiana FOOD. :D

Louisiana is one of those places I love to visit but loathe to live there. I did my penance living there for about six or seven years in the 70's and 80's.

It does have great food and great people though!

[AGAPE]

Pastor you don't know nothing....
You been a watchman on the wall for waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy tooooooooooo long....
You oughta come on down and just remove that wall....

I worry about these churches "telling" their pastor what to do

[CC1]

Brother Phillips (pastor in shady grove and a district presbyter in Louisiana) has pulled his church out of the org. He is very conservitive and I suspect this is an indication he is OUT.



2. Wayne Cardwell from DeQuincy has been told by his church that he can leave the UPCI but the CHURCH ISNT....

AND .....


3. ANOTHER CHURCH has told their Pastor that he can leave but THE CHURCH IS STAYING! And that man is CRAWFORD COON!



.


I have had some interesting commuincations today including a telephone call from some guy that used to be on the forum and went by NLYP.

Dan pointed out a couple of things to me in conversation. One is that Pastors Hennigan and Cardwell's are not a "half mile" apart. They are 1 1/2 blocks apart!!!!!

It is also my understanding that Pastor Cardwell and his church board are removing the church from the UPC without a vote at the church and are allowed to do so under church bylaws / rules. The church membership is having no say in the matter and is apparently causing some to drive either 1 1/2 blocks further or nearer to go to church.

[jrLA]

In DeQuincy, all three churches have fairly good memberships. (First Apostolic is the smallest, membership-wise.)

Actually there are three UPC churches in DeQuincy. I happen to be at one of them Pentecostal House of Praise, pastored by David Kennon. Braneff is not UPC by any means. Then there are several UPC churches around DeQuincy...Smokey Cove, Oretta, Etc. It is very interesting to say the least. I moved here about 6 months ago. I've never seen anything like it. lol

Bro. Hennigan (UPC) is the largest, then Cardwell (UPC), then Braneff (not UPC), the PHOP (Kennon-UPC), and it goes from there. :statbike:

[jrLA]

I have had some interesting commuincations today including a telephone call from some guy that used to be on the forum and went by NLYP.

Dan pointed out a couple of things to me in conversation. One is that Pastors Hennigan and Cardwell's are not a "half mile" apart. They are 1 1/2 blocks apart!!!!!

It is also my understanding that Pastor Cardwell and his church board are removing the church from the UPC without a vote at the church and are allowed to do so under church bylaws / rules. The church membership is having no say in the matter and is apparently causing some to drive either 1 1/2 blocks further or nearer to go to church.

Those aren't the only churches in DeQuincy! Others are seeing the results as well.

[MissBrattified]

Actually there are three UPC churches in DeQuincy. I happen to be at one of them Pentecostal House of Praise, pastored by David Kennon. Braneff is not UPC by any means. Then there are several UPC churches around DeQuincy...Smokey Cove, Oretta, Etc. It is very interesting to say the least. I moved here about 6 months ago. I've never seen anything like it. lol

Bro. Hennigan (UPC) is the largest, then Cardwell (UPC), then Braneff (not UPC), the PHOP (Kennon-UPC), and it goes from there. :statbike:

I wasn't aware of Bro. Kennon's church. I do know Bro. Braneff very well, though. I didn't state that he was UPC. :) I was Music Director there for 4 1/2 years, so I have a little bit of knowledge. ;)

[jrLA]

I wasn't aware of Bro. Kennon's church. I do know Bro. Braneff very well, though. I didn't state that he was UPC. :) I was Music Director there for 4 1/2 years, so I have a little bit of knowledge. ;)

Miss B. Sad, but through the years PHOP has not been a very loud voice in DeQuincy. I pray that this is changing. It is a really good church, great worship and is really beginning to grow. It was in DeQuincy long before Bro. Braneff ever came to DeQuincy! Infact, Bro. Kennon remembers that entrance.....

I know quite a few from Braneff's! Small World.....:theyareontome:

[MissBrattified]

Miss B. Sad, but through the years PHOP has not been a very loud voice in DeQuincy. I pray that this is changing. It is a really good church, great worship and is really beginning to grow. It was in DeQuincy long before Bro. Braneff ever came to DeQuincy! Infact, Bro. Kennon remembers that entrance.....

I know quite a few from Braneff's! Small World.....:theyareontome:

Wow, Bro. Kennon must have been there a very long time. The Braneff's started their church back in the late 70's. I know Bro. B's entrance wasn't welcomed, to say the least.

Tell me who you know! :D I may even know some folks that go to your church.

[jrLA]

Wow, Bro. Kennon must have been there a very long time. The Braneff's started their church back in the late 70's. I know Bro. B's entrance wasn't welcomed, to say the least.

Tell me who you know! :D I may even know some folks that go to your church.

Bro. Kennon has been there 31 years, maybe a little longer. The church was ther quite a few years before that. Had I believe 2 or 3 pastors before Bro. Kennon.

I know the Benoits, Daphanie (I think she does the music now), My wife knew Daryl very well (Braneff), and many others by face... in DQ, it isn't hard to see pentecostals....EVERYWHERE!

:running:

[TrmptPraise]

Bro. Kennon has been there 31 years, maybe a little longer. The church was ther quite a few years before that. Had I believe 2 or 3 pastors before Bro. Kennon.

I know the Benoits, Daphanie (I think she does the music now), My wife knew Daryl very well (Braneff), and many others by face... in DQ, it isn't hard to see pentecostals....EVERYWHERE!

:running:

I finally found out what church it was that I visited, JR. FYI, it was Cardwells.

[MissBrattified]

Bro. Kennon has been there 31 years, maybe a little longer. The church was ther quite a few years before that. Had I believe 2 or 3 pastors before Bro. Kennon.

I know the Benoits, Daphanie (I think she does the music now), My wife knew Daryl very well (Braneff), and many others by face... in DQ, it isn't hard to see pentecostals....EVERYWHERE!

:running:

Yes, Daphanie (is that the right spelling??) does the music...although I never met her.

So Bro. Kennon would've arrived a couple of years before Bro. Braneff started the church. Got it. ;)

What are you running for? :D

[jrLA]

Yes, Daphanie (is that the right spelling??) does the music...although I never met her.

So Bro. Kennon would've arrived a couple of years before Bro. Braneff started the church. Got it. ;)

What are you running for? :D

Not running...just like the smilie! lol

Do you remember Daryl???

[MissBrattified]

Not running...just like the smilie! lol

Do you remember Daryl???

Definitely.

[timlan2057]

I preached for Kenon way back in the early and mid-eighties so he's been there a good while.

He's from Tennessee, I believe ... a rarity for that area in that he's not a native Louisianian.

Oh.

Don't forget Calvary; another indy church pastored now by Marvin Hicks in his sunset years.

My ex-father-in-law pastored Smokey Cove for many years.

Go on up the road from Oretta - pastored a long time by A. D. Spears' late father-in-law and Smokey Cove and you're in Singer.

Of course, when you get to Singer you are out of Section 4 and into Section 6 so maybe we've gone as far as we need to up Highway 27.

From DeQuincy on up to DeRidder and further north on that western edge of Louisiana along the Sabine River, it's a different world.

That part of the world was mostly Spanish territory and was not part of the original Louisiana purchase.

Drive just a few miles out of Sulphur north on Highway 27 and all of a sudden, you've left Cajun country far behind.

[MissBrattified]

I preached for Kenon way back in the early and mid-eighties so he's been there a good while.

He's from Tennessee, I believe ... a rarity for that area in that he's not a native Louisianian.

Oh.

Don't forget Calvary; another indy church pastored now by Marvin Hicks in his sunset years.

My ex-father-in-law pastored Smokey Cove for many years.

Go on up the road from Oretta - pastored a long time by A. D. Spears' late father-in-law and Smokey Cove and you're in Singer.

Of course, when you get to Singer you are out of Section 4 and into Section 6 so maybe we've gone as far as we need to up Highway 27.

From DeQuincy on up to DeRidder and further north on that western edge of Louisiana along the Sabine River, it's a different world.

That part of the world was mostly Spanish territory and was not part of the original Louisiana purchase.

Drive just a few miles out of Sulphur north on Highway 27 and all of a sudden, you've left Cajun country far behind.

That's the truth!!!!! I'm afraid I never did quite fit in.

My sister lives in Sulphur...they go to Bro. Upton's church. Years ago, my parents attended Bro. Carl Ballestero's.

[timlan2057]

I've heard Master Wayne's radicalism has cost First UPC quite a few members.

I'm amazed at the names of some folks that had been members 50-plus years that are now attending Hennigan's.

I have to wonder what T. D. thinks about all this.

And ... as anyone can see from this discussion even if you are not familiar with the area ... there are plenty of places around for people to vote with their feet.

[Ferd]

I've heard Master Wayne's radicalism has cost First UPC quite a few members.

I'm amazed at the names of some folks that had been members 50-plus years that are now attending Hennigan's.

I have to wonder what T. D. thinks about all this.

And ... as anyone can see from this discussion even if you are not familiar with the area ... there are plenty of places around for people to vote with their feet.

This is so true. You pointed out south and north, but east of DeQuincy there are a couple more Pentecostal churches between DQ and Kinder which is only 20 miles away.

about 15 years ago TFT told me there were 35 Apostolic churches of some veriety in Beauregard Parish. there are 35K people there.... I know of at least 4 that have started since that conversation!

a fellow in that area had best be careful. that is for sure.

[jrLA]

I preached for Kenon way back in the early and mid-eighties so he's been there a good while.

He's from Tennessee, I believe ... a rarity for that area in that he's not a native Louisianian.

Oh.

Don't forget Calvary; another indy church pastored now by Marvin Hicks in his sunset years.

My ex-father-in-law pastored Smokey Cove for many years.

Go on up the road from Oretta - pastored a long time by A. D. Spears' late father-in-law and Smokey Cove and you're in Singer.

Of course, when you get to Singer you are out of Section 4 and into Section 6 so maybe we've gone as far as we need to up Highway 27.

From DeQuincy on up to DeRidder and further north on that western edge of Louisiana along the Sabine River, it's a different world.

That part of the world was mostly Spanish territory and was not part of the original Louisiana purchase.

Drive just a few miles out of Sulphur north on Highway 27 and all of a sudden, you've left Cajun country far behind.

Actually, Bro. Kennon is from Harrisonburg, LA....Born and raised!
He is infact a LA boy. I think your other info is correct.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Well, at least I still have family down there, so I have an excuse to go get some. You absolutely correct. Hmmmm Gumbo.:rolleyes:

I was thinking "Hmmmm Crawfish!" :woot

I miss the Beginets!

[timlan2057]

Actually, Bro. Kennon is from Harrisonburg, LA....Born and raised!
He is infact a LA boy. I think your other info is correct.

Sorry.

I may be thinking of his wife who's from Tennessee or Kentucky.

[timlan2057]

I miss the Beginets!

"Beignets" are strictly New Orleans stuff even though they're making the rounds.

We knew as much about beignets in southwest Louisiana as a jackrabbit knew about ping-pong.

[MissBrattified]

Timlan, you know so much history, it's amazing.

Boomm, they have crawfish stuffed Beignets. Yum!

I used to drive through David's BBQ in Dequincy and get one of those with a sweet tea.

[Ferd]

"Beignets" are strictly New Orleans stuff even though they're making the rounds.

We knew as much about beignets in southwest Louisiana as a jackrabbit knew about ping-pong.

we did know about Seaport Coffee! i miss Seaport dark roast.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

"Beignets" are strictly New Orleans stuff even though they're making the rounds.

We knew as much about beignets in southwest Louisiana as a jackrabbit knew about ping-pong.

Love the analogy!

[Ferd]

Timlan, you know so much history, it's amazing.

Boomm, they have crawfish stuffed Beignets. Yum!

In Lake Charles at Steamboat bills you can get a Pistolette stuffed with Crawfish Etoffee!

now that is some good eating!

[timlan2057]

This is so true. You pointed out south and north, but east of DeQuincy there are a couple more Pentecostal churches between DQ and Kinder which is only 20 miles away.

about 15 years ago TFT told me there were 35 Apostolic churches of some veriety in Beauregard Parish. there are 35K people there.... I know of at least 4 that have started since that conversation!

a fellow in that area had best be careful. that is for sure.


Hey, we were listing churches around DeQuincy in CALCASIEU Parish.

Now ... we can go about 15 miles up the road and start at Singer and Merryville and then list the BEAUREGARD Parish churches up through DeRidder.

We WILL be here awhile. lol

[TrmptPraise]

Timlan, you know so much history, it's amazing.

Boomm, they have crawfish stuffed Beignets. Yum!


hmmmm crawfish gumbo.....fresh, out-of-the-lake, fried-on-the dock white perch and bluegill....

[MissBrattified]

In Lake Charles at Steamboat bills you can get a Pistolette stuffed with Crawfish Etoffee!

now that is some good eating!

Whoops. Pistolette is what I'm thinking of!!!!!!! Sorry, Boomm. I guess I have no idea what a Beignet is, proving Timlan's point. haha!

[timlan2057]

Timlan, you know so much history, it's amazing.

Boomm, they have crawfish stuffed Beignets. Yum!

I used to drive through David's BBQ in Dequincy and get one of those with a sweet tea.

I wouldn't call it "history" ... we're talking about my old stomping grounds where I lived, churches at which I preached, and men whom I knew.

Sheesh.

I guess it IS history and I'm just old as dirt.

[rgcraig]

Timlan, you know so much history, it's amazing.



What amazes me the most is that he knows so much and has retained it and can recall it at a drop of the hat. I can't even remember what I had for lunch yesterday!

[Ferd]

Hey, we were listing churches around DeQuincy in CALCASIEU Parish.

Now ... we can go about 15 miles up the road and start at Singer and Merryville and then list the BEAUREGARD Parish churches up through DeRidder.

We WILL be here awhile. lol

and west toward Starks.... several more. A fellow could preach in a different church every sunday in what was Imperial Calcasieu Parish and not repeat for a couple of years!

[MissBrattified]

I wouldn't call it "history" ... we're talking about my old stomping grounds where I lived and men whom I knew.

Sheesh.

I guess it IS history and I'm just old as dirt.

LOL!!!!! Sorry, Timlan. :D I didn't mean to imply that you're really old. These are still current pastors, so I guess its not really "history."

[rgcraig]

Whoops. Pistolette is what I'm thinking of!!!!!!! Sorry, Boomm. I guess I have no idea what a Beignet is, proving Timlan's point. haha!

Beignets are puffed up bread like awesome stuff with powdered sugar sprinkled all over them!!!!!

[Ferd]

hmmmm crawfish gumbo.....fresh, out-of-the-lake, fried-on-the dock white perch and bluegill....

I made a chicken and sausage gumbo for our church here in Dallas last week. several were turning up their noses because of what their "idea" of gumbo was from the nasty resturants around here.


they changed their minds...

[TrmptPraise]

Beignets are puffed up bread like awesome stuff with powdered sugar sprinkled all over them!!!!!


yea, that sounds like it would take crawfish out of the equation :toofunny

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Lol, this needed to be moved to the Food Court, not Tulsa.

http://www.cafedumonde.com/images/beignets_navNEW.gif

http://www.cafedumonde.com/beignet.html

[TrmptPraise]

I made a chicken and sausage gumbo for our church here in Dallas last week. several were turning up their noses because of what their "idea" of gumbo was from the nasty resturants around here.


they changed their minds...


and its always better, 2-3-4 days later. Love it!

[MissBrattified]

yea, that sounds like it would take crawfish out of the equation :toofunny

LOL! Well, that's what I get for trying to sound knowledgeable. :D

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I made a chicken and sausage gumbo for our church here in Dallas last week. several were turning up their noses because of what their "idea" of gumbo was from the nasty resturants around here.


they changed their minds...

Did it gel when cold like good gumbo does?

[Ferd]

Did it gel when cold like good gumbo does?

I have no idea, it was a 5 gallon pot and it was all gone!

they are still getting tomato basil soup instead of chili this weekend!

[Fab]

and west toward Starks.... several more. A fellow could preach in a different church every sunday in what was Imperial Calcasieu Parish and not repeat for a couple of years!

Speaking of going west - Isn't there 2 good size Apostolic churches in Starks -- right across the street from one another??

[Fab]

I went and performed a wedding there and stayed in DeQuincy.

[revrandy]

Speaking of going west - Isn't there 2 good size Apostolic churches in Starks -- right across the street from one another??

If both Pastors were ethical men it wouldn't matter would it??

[jrLA]

Speaking of going west - Isn't there 2 good size Apostolic churches in Starks -- right across the street from one another??

YES!!! :shocked:

[Fab]

If both Pastors were ethical men it wouldn't matter would it??

Shouldn't matter -- but we also know how those things go, don't we???

[Fab]

YES!!! :shocked:

jrLA -- good to hear from you. I assisted your uncle after you left. Glad to hear you all are doing good.

[jrLA]

Sorry.

I may be thinking of his wife who's from Tennessee or Kentucky.

Nope, sorry...don't mean to correct, But she is too from Harrisonburg, LA
Bro. Kennon's dad was ALJC in that area, not sure where he pastored.

SIs. Kennon's parents still pastor the church in Manifest, LA. I believe they are independant.

[jrLA]

jrLA -- good to hear from you. I assisted your uncle after you left. Glad to hear you all are doing good.

Wait...I am trying to place you....AW? or MG?

[Fab]

Nope, sorry...don't mean to correct, But she is too from Harrisonburg, LA
Bro. Kennon's dad was ALJC in that area, not sure where he pastored.

SIs. Kennon's parents still pastor the church in Manifest, LA. I believe they are independant.

David Poole pastors the only church in Manifest. He is the Dist. Supt. for the La Dist. ALJC. I believe the Kennons are in a place called Rosin Creek.

[Fab]

Wait...I am trying to place you....AW? or MG?

AW -- I was there until the son took over and MG came then. Remember?

[jrLA]

David Poole pastors the only church in Manifest. He is the Dist. Supt. for the La Dist. ALJC. I believe the Kennons are in a place called Rosin Creek.

I'll have to check on that...it really seems to me that she is always calling it manifest. I know it is a small church. I know it isn't Rosin Creek. I know where that is. Her parents are Bro. and Sis. Terrell.

[jrLA]

AW -- I was there until the son took over and MG came then. Remember?

Got ya....how are you all? I had no idea that you were on here! lol

:shocked:

[TrmptPraise]

You know, JR. If House of Praise put the word International in front of their name, I see you having a great revival. Bring it up at the next board meeting...you'd be a hero. Of course, some may show up at 2AM asking for the boysenberry syrup, but hey whatever it takes to win souls.:walking:

[Fab]

I'll have to check on that...it really seems to me that she is always calling it manifest. I know it is a small church. I know it isn't Rosin Creek. I know where that is. Her parents are Bro. and Sis. Terrell.

Of course, even though Manifest has one store and the corporation limits are only about 1/2 mile -- everything in a 15 mile radius is considered Manifest.

[MissBrattified]

You know, JR. If House of Praise put the word International in front of their name, I see you have a great revival. Bring it up at the next board meeting...you'd be a hero. Of course, some may show up at 2AM asking for the boysenberry syrup, but hey whatever it takes to win souls.:walking:

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!! :toofunny

[Fab]

Got ya....how are you all? I had no idea that you were on here! lol

:shocked:

Doing great. Never know where we will show up. Looking for a music director. Interested? HA

[revrandy]

Doing great. Never know where we will show up. Looking for a music director. Interested? HA

Proselyting already??? WOW!!!!!:shocked::shocked:



:D

[revrandy]

Shouldn't matter -- but we also know how those things go, don't we???

:D:D

[jrLA]

You know, JR. If House of Praise put the word International in front of their name, I see you having a great revival. Bring it up at the next board meeting...you'd be a hero. Of course, some may show up at 2AM asking for the boysenberry syrup, but hey whatever it takes to win souls.:walking:

We were laugh at that very thing the other night! Bro. Kennon jokingly said something about changing the name...My wife said we need something that starts with "I" so the church can be called IHOP! lol Too Funny!

Before we got there, they only called it Pentecostal House Of Praise, they never used PHOP....We started referring to it that way and several hated it ....kept calling it P-Hop. I said no...PHOP! lol

[Fab]

Proselyting already??? WOW!!!!!:shocked::shocked:



:D

That's good. I needed that. But, I believe proselyting was term used describing those leaving Judaism coming to Christianity. I just wonder if we haven't taken it out of context.

[jrLA]

FAb---check your pm box.

[Ferd]

If both Pastors were ethical men it wouldn't matter would it??

LOL! Rev, you arent familar with Starks are you?


ethics has little to do when you have 2 churches in rock throwing distance from each other...in a town of less than 500! LOL!

PS, least anyone get any ideas, if you are not from Starks, dont make the mistake of going hunting in the woods around there. some have tried....many have never been seen again! Them is some crazy Redbones! (I can say that im married to one)

[Barb]

Brother Phillips (pastor in shady grove and a district presbyter in Louisiana) has pulled his church out of the org. He is very conservitive and I suspect this is an indication he is OUT.



2. Wayne Cardwell from DeQuincy has been told by his church that he can leave the UPCI but the CHURCH ISNT....

AND .....


3. ANOTHER CHURCH has told their Pastor that he can leave but THE CHURCH IS STAYING! And that man is CRAWFORD COON!



.One of the elders in this church and his wife are close friends of my mom, and they told her this a couple of weeks ago.

[Barb]

Glad you are still here for the next few days to keep the board balanced. With all those conservatives in Tulsa this board might have tipped too far to the liberal side.

I bet we'll have TONS of guests in the next few days checking in to see what's going on!

I'm sure you are right...

[TrmptPraise]

I am feeling like Thad now :toofunny

I just got off the phone with a friend from DeQuincy. According to them, neither Bro. Cardwell nor his church will be leaving the UPC. Bro. Cardwell will at least take one year before he makes any decision on the matter.

[Barb]

Timlan, you know so much history, it's amazing.

Boomm, they have crawfish stuffed Beignets. Yum!

I used to drive through David's BBQ in Dequincy and get one of those with a sweet tea.

Had to look it up online and it sounds wonderful..except for the crawfish!! :eek:

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Had to look it up online and it sounds wonderful..except for the crawfish!! :eek:

Light dough triangles fried and covered with powered sugar.

They don't stuff them with Crawfish! You eat Crawfish with Onions and taters.

[PastorD]

I would really like to know if the Crawford Coon info is correct...and how it would work...for the Pastor to be Non-UPC but the church to be UPC????

Unless they were planning on him leaving???

It doesn't make much sense to me...

I have heard it to be true. It is an affiliated church....which means, if he gets out he cannot pastor there. His brother is a board member.

[Barb]

Light dough triangles fried and covered with powered sugar.

They don't stuff them with Crawfish! You eat Crawfish with Onions and taters.

I know that now...was going my Missy B's post.

[CC1]

Light dough triangles fried and covered with powered sugar.

They don't stuff them with Crawfish! You eat Crawfish with Onions and taters.

Pretty much anything fried tastes good but these La. pastries are exceptional!!

[Jann]

Jann, i believe there are 2 Shady Groves in Louisiana. (I could be wrong)

Ferd,

You are 100% correct!
I had forgotten about the other one that you mentioned.

[deltaduck]

Sis Kennon and Bro Kennon that you are talking about, was he Darius Kennon. I am kin to the Kennons

[jrLA]

Sis Kennon and Bro Kennon that you are talking about, was he Darius Kennon. I am kin to the Kennons

Davd and Gearl Kennon from Harrisonburg, LA

[dixonic2]

All this talk of Lousiana has me remembering...I have family in Anacoco/Leesville area. I miss it down there! My siggy pic is the "bay" next to our cabin :( I missssss it!

[kingfish]

what about hargroves world faith mim, grace also

[MissBrattified]

Light dough triangles fried and covered with powered sugar.

They don't stuff them with Crawfish! You eat Crawfish with Onions and taters.

Actually...I'm not completely wrong...you can get savory beignets stuffed with meat (presumably crawfish as well), without the powdered sugar of course! But what I used to order at David's...definitely a pistolette.

[kingfish]

in dequincy la area
cardwell henegan hoosier hicks brainff kennon & shall we continue

[MissBrattified]

Punctuation would be nice, kingfish. :)

[kingfish]

they all get together & repent to one another &god the father theyn might get to heaven

[CC1]

Punctuation would be nice, kingfish. :)

Do you have a pic of a computer keyboard that you could post with the comma and period keys highlighted?:shocked:

[MissBrattified]

Do you have a pic of a computer keyboard that you could post with the comma and period keys highlighted?:shocked:

LOL! Well...no.

[Old Paths]

LOL! Rev, you arent familar with Starks are you?


ethics has little to do when you have 2 churches in rock throwing distance from each other...in a town of less than 500! LOL!

PS, least anyone get any ideas, if you are not from Starks, dont make the mistake of going hunting in the woods around there. some have tried....many have never been seen again! Them is some crazy Redbones! (I can say that im married to one)



When you know the whole story then you understand why some places have TWO churches.

[Ferd]

When you know the whole story then you understand why some places have TWO churches.

OP, YOU may know the whole story in Starks, but when you are talking about Southwest Louisiana, there really isnt any "knowing the whole story".

There is no place on earth like the land of my birth. Some of the greatest preachers in pentecost come from the Imperial Calcasieu Parish area. That would be Camron, Calcasieu, Beauregard, Jefferson Davis and Allen Parishes....

But it is also home to some of the worst blood fueds in Pentecost too!

Every little town has some odd story. everyone seems to think they are right.

[Steve Epley]

OP, YOU may know the whole story in Starks, but when you are talking about Southwest Louisiana, there really isnt any "knowing the whole story".

There is no place on earth like the land of my birth. Some of the greatest preachers in pentecost come from the Imperial Calcasieu Parish area. That would be Camron, Calcasieu, Beauregard, Jefferson Davis and Allen Parishes....

But it is also home to some of the worst blood fueds in Pentecost too!

Every little town has some odd story. everyone seems to think they are right.

Ferd this story is so terrible it should never be published on an open forum if you would like I will pm you?

[timlan2057]

OP, YOU may know the whole story in Starks, but when you are talking about Southwest Louisiana, there really isnt any "knowing the whole story".

There is no place on earth like the land of my birth. Some of the greatest preachers in pentecost come from the Imperial Calcasieu Parish area. That would be Camron, Calcasieu, Beauregard, Jefferson Davis and Allen Parishes....

But it is also home to some of the worst blood fueds in Pentecost too!

Every little town has some odd story. everyone seems to think they are right.

That five parish area was at one time Imperial Calcasieu Parish.

Now Jeff Davis Parish (Lake Arthur, Jennings, etc.) is in present day Section 5. W. C. Jackson was the longtime presbyter there.

Now you won't find many great preachers or leaders originating from there since that is the entrance to hard-core Cajun country - going eastward into Lafayette and beyond.

Allen Parish?

Yes ... Kinder and Oakdale - an extension of Beauregard Parish with quite a few pentecostal churches.

Earl Long knew this area well - he knew all of Louisiana well.

But he was a master campaigner who knew to break out the French-speaking stump speakers in Elton, but it was a no-no to do that in the redneck country around Kinder in Allen Parish, just 15-20 miles up the road.

[Old Paths]

OP, YOU may know the whole story in Starks, but when you are talking about Southwest Louisiana, there really isnt any "knowing the whole story".

There is no place on earth like the land of my birth. Some of the greatest preachers in pentecost come from the Imperial Calcasieu Parish area. That would be Camron, Calcasieu, Beauregard, Jefferson Davis and Allen Parishes....

But it is also home to some of the worst blood fueds in Pentecost too!

Every little town has some odd story. everyone seems to think they are right.



Ferd

I am familar with some of the "blood fueds" of Calcasieu parish and Starks in particular, but TWO churches in Starks has nothing to do with "blood fueds", but it was a DOCTRINAL/HOLINESS issue.

Why don't you PM Elder Epley and let him tell you the whole story.

[Ferd]

That five parish area was at one time Imperial Calcasieu Parish.

Now Jeff Davis Parish (Lake Arthur, Jennings, etc.) is in present day Section 5. W. C. Jackson was the longtime presbyter there.

Now you won't find many great preachers or leaders originating from there since that is the entrance to hard-core Cajun country - going eastward into Lafayette and beyond.

Allen Parish?

Yes ... Kinder and Oakdale - an extension of Beauregard Parish with quite a few pentecostal churches.

Earl Long knew this area well - he knew all of Louisiana well.

But he was a master campaigner who knew to break out the French-speaking stump speakers in Elton, but it was a no-no to do that in the redneck country around Kinder in Allen Parish, just 15-20 miles up the road.


Tim, my grandfather had a first cousin from the area between Dry Creek and Reeves. Earl Long made him the oyster inspector for the state of Louisiana. I do not believe my cousin ever actully saw the gulf of mexico!

He did however have some really good Hog hunting dogs. Earl made many trips to that area to hunt with him!

[Ferd]

Ferd

I am familar with some of the "blood fueds" of Calcasieu parish and Starks in particular, but TWO churches in Starks has nothing to do with "blood fueds", but it was a DOCTRINAL/HOLINESS issue.

Why don't you PM Elder Epley and let him tell you the whole story.

OP, there is no need at all to get into the particulars related to starks. I have no ax to grind and take you at your word.

my point here is, that we are talking about an area that has a long history. some battles were all about doctrine and right and wrong. others were about personalities.

everyone thought they were right and did all in the Name of God.

[Ferd]

Ferd this story is so terrible it should never be published on an open forum if you would like I will pm you?

Brother Epley, I could also tell some stories that would curl your toenails.

I have lived thru more than one split and have seen pretty much everything you can think of. No need to go into details.

I respect you completely and am in no way making any challenge to the facts surrrounding that one location....

just speaking about the area in general and its history. Lets let the dead bury the dead...

[CC1]

Tim, my grandfather had a first cousin from the area between Dry Creek and Reeves. Earl Long made him the oyster inspector for the state of Louisiana. I do not believe my cousin ever actully saw the gulf of mexico!

He did however have some really good Hog hunting dogs. Earl made many trips to that area to hunt with him!

Now that is the Louisiana that I know. I had an uncle that "worked" for some division of the La. State government during one of Edwin Edwards reelection campagin for Governor back in the 70's. I think it was the "Weights and Measures" department. He had a brand new state issued pickup complete with the seal of La. on the door.

In actuality his job was to travel the state in that truck working on Edwards campgain. Typical.

Louisiana is the most corrup state in the union I believe. Corruption is pevasive in the state government and most local governments. A way of life.

That is one reason I have no pity for the most part regarding Katrina. That state wasted hundreds of millions of all of our federal tax dollars that were supposed to be used on the levvys.

[Fab]

Louisiana is the most corrup state in the union I believe. Corruption is pevasive in the state government and most local governments. A way of life.



I am sure you have heard the old story -- we sold our old voting machines to Mexico, and Edwards is still getting voted in as their President.

[Ferd]

Now that is the Louisiana that I know. I had an uncle that "worked" for some division of the La. State government during one of Edwin Edwards reelection campagin for Governor back in the 70's. I think it was the "Weights and Measures" department. He had a brand new state issued pickup complete with the seal of La. on the door.

In actuality his job was to travel the state in that truck working on Edwards campgain. Typical.

Louisiana is the most corrup state in the union I believe. Corruption is pevasive in the state government and most local governments. A way of life.

That is one reason I have no pity for the most part regarding Katrina. That state wasted hundreds of millions of all of our federal tax dollars that were supposed to be used on the levvys.


The good news is, Bobby Jindal is a reformer who will clean things up.

[Michael Phelps]

Brother Phillips (pastor in shady grove and a district presbyter in Louisiana) has pulled his church out of the org. He is very conservitive and I suspect this is an indication he is OUT.



2. Wayne Cardwell from DeQuincy has been told by his church that he can leave the UPCI but the CHURCH ISNT....

AND .....


3. ANOTHER CHURCH has told their Pastor that he can leave but THE CHURCH IS STAYING! And that man is CRAWFORD COON!



.


Anyone see a fundamental problem with the two bolded statements above?

Minister_WD, I'm certainly not saying you're not telling the truth, in fact, I believe you. I'm just a bit concerned when I hear that a church is telling their pastor what he CAN or CANNOT do.

[Ferd]

Anyone see a fundamental problem with the two bolded statements above?

Minister_WD, I'm certainly not saying you're not telling the truth, in fact, I believe you. I'm just a bit concerned when I hear that a church is telling their pastor what he CAN or CANNOT do.

MP, having been very close to a situation where a pastor was attempting to pull out of the UPCI moving in the opposite direction (very liberal), I can tell you that a church that has a long history with an organization, has every right to look the pastor in the eye and tell him he can go but the church wont.

Both of these churches have been in the UPCI longer than the current pastor has been alive if i am not mistaken.

[MissBrattified]

Anyone see a fundamental problem with the two bolded statements above?

Minister_WD, I'm certainly not saying you're not telling the truth, in fact, I believe you. I'm just a bit concerned when I hear that a church is telling their pastor what he CAN or CANNOT do.

Seeing as the congregation is usually affected by a pastor's actions, I think they should have quite a bit of input.

Think about it: Camps, fellowship meetings, conferences, bible quizzing, etc etc etc.

[Ferd]

Seeing as the congregation is usually affected by a pastor's actions, I think they should have quite a bit of input.

Think about it: Camps, fellowship meetings, conferences, bible quizzing, etc etc etc.

and in louisiana, many of these people have relationships and churchs that date back to the merger.

we arent talking about a pastor who went into an unchurch area and built a church from scratch.

[Michael Phelps]

MP, having been very close to a situation where a pastor was attempting to pull out of the UPCI moving in the opposite direction (very liberal), I can tell you that a church that has a long history with an organization, has every right to look the pastor in the eye and tell him he can go but the church wont.

Both of these churches have been in the UPCI longer than the current pastor has been alive if i am not mistaken.

I understand what you're saying, but for all the chest thumping that we do about not having the church (laity) govern the pastor (ministry), it seems a bit Laodicean to me.

First off, I don't agree with the pastor trying to lead an established church in any extreme direction - I would resign before I'd do that.

However, I guess the wording of the statements "the church will not LET the pastor" just rubbed me the wrong way.

Your point is duly noted.

[pelathais]

Anyone see a fundamental problem with the two bolded statements above?

Minister_WD, I'm certainly not saying you're not telling the truth, in fact, I believe you. I'm just a bit concerned when I hear that a church is telling their pastor what he CAN or CANNOT do.
Not to pick a fight with you my friend, but the pastor is the servant of those people. If he doesn't like what "he's being told to do" he can git out and find a more agreeable bunch to hang with.

These people have, no doubt, invested a lot of their finances, talent and their very lives into the respective churches. It's kind of hard when some preacher's squabble spills over and tells you that your kids can't practice Bible quizzing with their cousins in the next county. If it comes down to that, then the preachers need to move on. The saints are "the church," after all (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 14:33; Ephesians 1:1; and etc.).

[Melody]

Pastor's aren't my puppet, I want them to find the voice of God, I don't want Aaron to cave and tell moses the people did it.

A pastor is accountable to God, He usually deals better than I can

[Michael Phelps]

Not to pick a fight with you my friend, but the pastor is the servant of those people. If he doesn't like what "he's being told to do" he can git out and find a more agreeable bunch to hang with.

These people have, no doubt, invested a lot of their finances, talent and their very lives into the respective churches. It's kind of hard when some preacher's squabble spills over and tells you that your kids can't practice Bible quizzing with their cousins in the next county. If it comes down to that, then the preachers need to move on. The saints are "the church," after all (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 14:33; Ephesians 1:1; and etc.).

Really?

So, you would just make the pastor a hireling? Meeting the wants and desires of the people? Don't ruffle any feathers, etc........

Sorry, can't find scripture for that.

Now, I'll agree that that opposite extreme is also unscriptural - being lords over God's heritage.

But, if I remember, the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor......

[freeatlast]

Really?

So, you would just make the pastor a hireling? Meeting the wants and desires of the people? Don't ruffle any feathers, etc........

Sorry, can't find scripture for that.

Now, I'll agree that that opposite extreme is also unscriptural - being lords over God's heritage.

But, if I remember, the great Apostle [B]Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor...




Mike : could you post those scriptures ?

[AGAPE]

I understand what you're saying, but for all the chest thumping that we do about not having the church (laity) govern the pastor (ministry), it seems a bit Laodicean to me.

First off, I don't agree with the pastor trying to lead an established church in any extreme direction - I would resign before I'd do that.

However, I guess the wording of the statements "the church will not LET the pastor" just rubbed me the wrong way.

Your point is duly noted.

I agree Bro Phelps....but is trying to have fellowship that still stands for something extreme???

[kingfish]

what about allthis hype UPC , tulsa & independent. i think god cares more about doing right , LIVING RIGHT, AS LONG AS YOU PREACH TRUTH . HE DOES NOT CARE WHAT ORG. YOU IN IF ANY. PEOPLE ACT LIKE IF YOU ARE NOT WITH THIS GROUP ARE THE OTHER GROUP THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU . THE LORD SAYS HIS PEOPLE ARE LIKE CHILDERN .LET THE OTHRES ALONE ALONE & LIVE FOR GOD. it IS NOT ABOUT THE LARGEST ORG. ARE GROUP OF INDEP. WINN SOULS PREACH TRUTH & TREAT EVERYONE THE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED PEOPLE NEED TO STOP WORSHIPING ORG. & WORSHIP THE LORD!!!!!!!!!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

kingsfish, you do realize Netquitte states all caps is considered Shouting?

I seldom read all caps postings myself.

:tiphat

[pelathais]

Really?

So, you would just make the pastor a hireling? Meeting the wants and desires of the people? Don't ruffle any feathers, etc........

Sorry, can't find scripture for that.

Now, I'll agree that that opposite extreme is also unscriptural - being lords over God's heritage.

But, if I remember, the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor......
I wouldn't default over to the extreme of the pastor needing to be a hireling. The body is supposed to work like a body = with every part in sync. In many cases, for a pastor to change a long standing affiliation that the local church has held would be unsettling to the people in the church. They should have as much input as the pastor in the matter, if for example, the church's affiliation pre-dates the pastor's time there.

I guess I don't have your gift of memory. What exactly was the "strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" that the Apostle Paul had?

[Felicity]

Really?

So, you would just make the pastor a hireling? Meeting the wants and desires of the people? Don't ruffle any feathers, etc........

Sorry, can't find scripture for that.

Now, I'll agree that that opposite extreme is also unscriptural - being lords over God's heritage.

But, if I remember, the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor......Agreed.

[timlan2057]

Starks is larger than 500 people and the church did not split over holiness issues..


Some have sure spun it that way, haven't they?

I have no interest or desire to get into specifics but you're right.

That Starks church did NOT split over "holiness" standards.

[freeatlast]

Really?

So, you would just make the pastor a hireling? Meeting the wants and desires of the people? Don't ruffle any feathers, etc........

Sorry, can't find scripture for that.

Now, I'll agree that that opposite extreme is also unscriptural - being lords over God's heritage.

But, if I remember, the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor......

Still waiting on those scriptures Michael .

[bloodbought]

Isn't life a puzzle? Its amazing how self-serving the voice of the Lord is for some people. The dust will settle and somehow the church will march forward.

[Whole Hearted]

When you know the whole story then you understand why some places have TWO churches.

True Brother

[NW Pastor]

I wouldn't default over to the extreme of the pastor needing to be a hireling. The body is supposed to work like a body = with every part in sync. In many cases, for a pastor to change a long standing affiliation that the local church has held would be unsettling to the people in the church. They should have as much input as the pastor in the matter, if for example, the church's affiliation pre-dates the pastor's time there.

I guess I don't have your gift of memory. What exactly was the "strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" that the Apostle Paul had?

A hireling is one who cares for himself more than the flock because he has no vested interest in the welfare of the sheep. How many times have we seen dictator pastors destroy a church through bad decisions then leave it for some future man of God to reassemble? Was he the hireling?

The future of the sheep are tied to a pastor's decisions, and a true shepherd will balance his own convictions with those of godly members of the laity. (not the carnal ones).

[Michael Phelps]

Still waiting on those scriptures Michael .



FAL, I will humor you on this, although I think you already know the scriptures, and are just looking for a bit of a fray here.......

First, do you believe in the sovereignty of a pastor? If not, then the following scriptures don't apply:

However, if you do believe in the concept of God appointing pastors, here's your first scripture:

EPHESIANS 4:
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Then, if you believe that God has given you a pastor for your spiritual edification, here's the next directive:

HEBREWS 13:
7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Now, do I believe that saints are to follow a pastor blindly? Absolutely not, Paul said "Follow me as I follow Christ".

Do I believe that saints have the right to stand up against a pastor, even when they feel he is wrong, and tell him how things are going to be? Absolutely not! Just ask the sons of Korah how that worked out against Moses.

If saints feel a pastor is leading them in a direction that's contrary to the word of God, they have the right and the free will to find another man of God who can feed and direct them.

Even when Saul, who was ungodly and filled with hatred, tried to kill David, David never stood up against him to destroy him, and the one time David took a piece of Saul's garment, he felt so guilty he had to repent.

Even when Eli was backslidden, Samuel never tried to take over his position.

Sorry, my friend, for a church to stand up and tell the pastor what to do is anti-scriptural in my studies.

Now, if you have some scripture to prove otherwise, I would be very happy to entertain your thesis.

By all means, I'll be waiting!

[Michael Phelps]

I wouldn't default over to the extreme of the pastor needing to be a hireling. The body is supposed to work like a body = with every part in sync. In many cases, for a pastor to change a long standing affiliation that the local church has held would be unsettling to the people in the church. They should have as much input as the pastor in the matter, if for example, the church's affiliation pre-dates the pastor's time there.

I guess I don't have your gift of memory. What exactly was the "strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" that the Apostle Paul had?

I've answered this on FAL's post, but since you mentioned it, maybe you can provide some scripture that says its ok for the saints to set policy in the church over the pastor? I'd be interested to see those.....

[justasaint]

Your right
the saints shouldn't controll the pastor nor should the pastor control the saints.

Whats the fuss the libs leave and they are demonized, and now the cons leave
they are demonized. WOW the cons and libs finally have something in common the UPC
is spreading rumors and is black listing them.

[Sarah]

The good news is, Bobby Jindal is a reformer who will clean things up.


Pray, Ferd, pray!

I believe it can actually happen.

[Michael Phelps]

Your right
the saints shouldn't controll the pastor nor should the pastor control the saints.

Whats the fuss the libs leave and they are demonized, and now the cons leave
they are demonized. WOW the cons and libs finally have something in common the UPC
is spreading rumors and is black listing them.

Lol, good point.

[freeatlast]

FAL, I will humor you on this, although I think you already know the scriptures, and are just looking for a bit of a fray here.......

First, do you believe in the sovereignty of a pastor? If not, then the following scriptures don't apply:

However, if you do believe in the concept of God appointing pastors, here's your first scripture:

EPHESIANS 4:
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Then, if you believe that God has given you a pastor for your spiritual edification, here's the next directive:

HEBREWS 13:
7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Now, do I believe that saints are to follow a pastor blindly? Absolutely not, Paul said "Follow me as I follow Christ".

Do I believe that saints have the right to stand up against a pastor, even when they feel he is wrong, and tell him how things are going to be? Absolutely not! Just ask the sons of Korah how that worked out against Moses.

If saints feel a pastor is leading them in a direction that's contrary to the word of God, they have the right and the free will to find another man of God who can feed and direct them.

Even when Saul, who was ungodly and filled with hatred, tried to kill David, David never stood up against him to destroy him, and the one time David took a piece of Saul's garment, he felt so guilty he had to repent.

Even when Eli was backslidden, Samuel never tried to take over his position.

Sorry, my friend, for a church to stand up and tell the pastor what to do is anti-scriptural in my studies.

Now, if you have some scripture to prove otherwise, I would be very happy to entertain your thesis.

By all means, I'll be waiting!

Just drink the kool aid and keep your mouth shut then. Okie Dokie

There is nothing wrong with a board being in place in a local assembly to keep an errant pastor from doing great harm to a congrgation.

Or is it you postion that the pastor is infallible?

I would not contribute one dime to a church that has a pastor that has 100% control over ever decision in an assembly, without consideration of other input from spiritual people in that assembly.

I spent many years in assembly's with pastors who abused the scriptures you postd to the hurt of the church.

Been there ,done that..all I got left is the Tee Shirt

[Michael Phelps]

Just drink the kool aid and keep your mouth shut then. Okie Dokie

There is nothing wrong with a board being in place in a local assembly to keep an errant pastor from doing great harm to a congrgation.

Or is it you postion that the pastor is infallible?

I would not contribute one dime to a church that has a pastor that has 100% control over ever decision in an assembly, without consideration of other input from spiritual people in that assembly.

I spent many years in assembly's with pastors who abused the scriptures you postd to the hurt of the church.

Been there ,done that..all I got left is the Tee Shirt

Now it's my turn to ask you, can you provide scripture to back up this belief?

I'm anxiously awaiting.........

[mizpeh]

Now it's my turn to ask you, can you provide scripture to back up this belief?

I'm anxiously awaiting.........This is one example, maybe not a good one, since the church members seem to be letting this tyrant rule the roost but the apostle John, if he goes there, will intervene and set Diotrephes straight.

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

[Michael Phelps]

This is one example, maybe not a good one, since the church members seem to be letting this tyrant rule the roost but the apostle John, if he goes there, will intervene and set Diotrephes straight.

3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Having an overseer deal with a pastor is MUCH different than having the congregation stand up against him.

Please show me any instance in scripture where God sanctioned a congregation standing up against the ministry?

I've already mentioned David and Saul, Eli and Samuel, Moses and the sons of Korah, etc. even though the leaders were evil, God didn't support those under their care to come against them - God handled it.

So, I'd appreciate any scriptural reference that endorses the congregation disciplining the pastor?

[mizpeh]

Bro Phelps,

I agree with your POV and even printed out post #148 that you wrote. :)

I was curious to see what you would say to the example I gave.

[Michael Phelps]

Bro Phelps,

I agree with your POV and even printed out post #148 that you wrote. :)

I was curious to see what you would say to the example I gave.

Thanks.

In truth, I do not agree that pastors should be able to run churches like they own them, nor do I feel it's right for a pastor to get up in the pulpit and make sudden and drastic changes to the standards and mores of existing, established churches.

However, the danger I see is that when that does happen, and it will, many congregations don't know how to deal with it Biblically.

In nearly every other area of our lives, we are taught to "stand still and see the salvation of the Lord", we're taught to "Trust God and HE will work it out", we're taught that "No weapon formed against us shall prosper", etc.

So, if we TRULY believe those scriptures, and we TRULY believe the principles of submission that God has set forth in scripture, we understand that if the pastor is wrong, God will take care of it. And, if God is not moving quickly enough for us, and we truly believe that our salvation and the salvation of our children is in danger, then WE need to walk away.

There is PLENTY of scripture that condones walking away from those who walk in darkness, there is plenty of scripture where people couldn't agree and parted ways, and both stayed saved...........there is plenty of scripture encouraging us to fellowship with likeminded believers. Nothing wrong with making an amiable split, in my opinion.

However, I still can't find scripture that condones, or even allows, the congregation to overthrow the pastor.

[freeatlast]

Now it's my turn to ask you, can you provide scripture to back up this belief?

I'm anxiously awaiting.........

Mike..I am not advocating overthrowing a pastor. i am advocating that every church needs a spiritual board of Elders in place in the event a pastor goes bad.

A pastor that will not listen to the consel of godly men and women in his church has a head problem

You mentioned sevearl Old Testament examples of people like David that would not kill Saul. So I'll post some Old testament scripture that advocates seeking consel of others in making decisiions.

Proverbs 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

A pastor is a fellow laborer in the work of God..when he sets himself up as a pope, that is in error.

[pelathais]

I've answered this on FAL's post, but since you mentioned it, maybe you can provide some scripture that says its ok for the saints to set policy in the church over the pastor? I'd be interested to see those.....
LOL. Strawman argument, or a false dilemma. As I said before, the body needs to work with all of its members in sync.

Oh, and I agree with your post to FAL. I just don't think it fits the bill for the "the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" statement. The pastor serves the people, and all the people serve the Lord. There should be no "control" among those who serve and are being served in this world.

[freeatlast]

Thanks.

In truth, I do not agree that pastors should be able to run churches like they own them, nor do I feel it's right for a pastor to get up in the pulpit and make sudden and drastic changes to the standards and mores of existing, established churches.

However, the danger I see is that when that does happen, and it will, many congregations don't know how to deal with it Biblically.

In nearly every other area of our lives, we are taught to "stand still and see the salvation of the Lord", we're taught to "Trust God and HE will work it out", we're taught that "No weapon formed against us shall prosper", etc.

So, if we TRULY believe those scriptures, and we TRULY believe the principles of submission that God has set forth in scripture, we understand that if the pastor is wrong, God will take care of it. And, if God is not moving quickly enough for us, and we truly believe that our salvation and the salvation of our children is in danger, then WE need to walk away.

There is PLENTY of scripture that condones walking away from those who walk in darkness, there is plenty of scripture where people couldn't agree and parted ways, and both stayed saved...........there is plenty of scripture encouraging us to fellowship with likeminded believers. Nothing wrong with making an amiable split, in my opinion.

However, I still can't find scripture that condones, or even allows, the congregation to overthrow the pastor.

Sorry brother but this bull feathers.

Here's a scenario for you Br Phelps:

A congregation of 125 regular worshipers just finished paying off their 2 million dollar property.

Their pastor retires and the church elects a new pastor.

This new pastor is all swell for about a year. Then he begins to preach theat cut hair is OK tatoo's are OK.

Just say the "Sinner's prayer" and you'll be saved.

Baptism is OK if you want to , otherwise it's not necesary.

This new pastor has not invested dollar one in this assembly, the membership is very upset with this new fangled teaching.

BUT Br Phelps thay are to be quiet or just walk away from the church THEY built ACCORDING to YOU and give it over to this PASTOR just because he is part of the five fold ministry?????

This pastor on a clergy class pedastal thing we have going today came out of the Catholic Church. it was not a part of the NT church.....they ALL were fellow laborers in the kingdom of God.

[mizpeh]

LOL. Strawman argument. As I said before, the body needs to work with all of its members in sync.

Oh, and I agree with your post to FAL. I just don't think it fits the bill for the "the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" statement. The pastor serves the people, and all the people serve the Lord. There should be no "control" among those who serve and are being served in this world.

What you say is true..... BUT and IF there is a minister who is lording it over God's heritage what does the Bible say to do?

First course....would be to pray, seek God for direction, go to the pastor and let him know that you think he is overstretching his authority. He replies that you are in rebellion.

What do you do then? Do you spread your voice among the sheep? What does the Bible advocate?

I know of a poster who is asking this question right now on another forum because of a situation he is going through.

[freeatlast]

What you say is true..... BUT and IF there is a minister who is lording it over God's heritage what does the Bible say to do?


The bible tells ministers not to do this..... the bible tells us if we see a brother in a fault to go to that brother and gently restore him

If my pastor (brother) does this i am told to go to him and gently restore such a one in the faith

Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Would say that these scripture do nat apply to a minister??

[mizpeh]

The bible tells ministers not to do this..... the bible tells us if we see a brother in a fault to go to that brother and gently restore him

If my pastor (brother) does this i am told to go to him and gently restore such a one in the faith

Thanks for a Biblical answer.

[pelathais]

What you say is true..... BUT and IF there is a minister who is lording it over God's heritage what does the Bible say to do?

First course....would be to pray, seek God for direction, go to the pastor and let him know that you think he is overstretching his authority. He replies that you are in rebellion.

What do you do then? Do you spread your voice among the sheep? What does the Bible advocate?

I know of a poster who is asking this question right now on another forum because of a situation he is going through.
It can depend. If the "overstretching his authority" is an ideological difference and others in the church see it as such, then you should simply agree to disagree and find another pastor.

However, if the problem imperils the well being of others then you should speak out.

I don't think there are any easy answers here. Anything you do will involve some hurt feelings. Presumably, you (or that other poster) has already invested a lot of time and a big piece of their heart to the church. Sometimes you have to look at the "needs of the many;" and as a Christian that means taking some hits on your own chin while keeping a smile on your face. This is not an easy task.

[mizpeh]

I don't think there are any easy answers here. Anything you do will involve some hurt feelings. Presumably, you (or that other poster) has already invested a lot of time and a big piece of their heart to the church. Sometimes you have to look at the "needs of the many;" and as a Christian that means taking some hits on your own chin while keeping a smile on your face. This is not an easy task.
I'm not speaking of myself, but I can understand your point about putting the needs of the many first. We ought not to please ourselves. :)

[Michael Phelps]

Mike..I am not advocating overthrowing a pastor. i am advocating that every church needs a spiritual board of Elders in place in the event a pastor goes bad.

A pastor that will not listen to the consel of godly men and women in his church has a head problem

You mentioned sevearl Old Testament examples of people like David that would not kill Saul. So I'll post some Old testament scripture that advocates seeking consel of others in making decisiions.

Proverbs 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

A pastor is a fellow laborer in the work of God..when he sets himself up as a pope, that is in error.


Good scriptures, and I agree with your first statement.

As I said, I, too am against the pastor being "lords over God's heritage".

However, I've seen too many situations where, even when the pastor was wrong, people came against him to overthrow him, or change his direction, and many problems resulted. God will not honor wrong actions, even when there is seeming justification.

I've seen too many people develop the wrong spirit even when they were doing what they believed to be the right thing.

I've always found that God will take care of it in His way, and in His time.

[Michael Phelps]

The bible tells ministers not to do this..... the bible tells us if we see a brother in a fault to go to that brother and gently restore him

If my pastor (brother) does this i am told to go to him and gently restore such a one in the faith

Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Would say that these scripture do nat apply to a minister??

And I totally agree with this!

As a pastor, I would always welcome someone coming to me in a right spirit. The Bible does give clear direction on how to approach an elder with whom you have issue.

What I would not condone, and what God would not condone, is the group overthrow mentality, but I think we've already established that, and I believe we're all on the same page here.

[Michael Phelps]

LOL. Strawman argument, or a false dilemma. As I said before, the body needs to work with all of its members in sync.

Oh, and I agree with your post to FAL. I just don't think it fits the bill for the "the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" statement. The pastor serves the people, and all the people serve the Lord. There should be no "control" among those who serve and are being served in this world.

Agreed, but it's not a strawman, it's real life, my friend.

I've seen it, and I'm sure you have too.

The bottom line is, if there is mutual love and respect from pastor to saints and vice versa, this issue should never come up. If the pastor is following Christ, the saints are instructed to follow him.

If he veers from the course, the instruction to the saints to follow him is no longer valid, and they should prayerfully seek God to give them new direction.

[BroGibs]

Not to pick a fight with you my friend, but the pastor is the servant of those people. If he doesn't like what "he's being told to do" he can git out and find a more agreeable bunch to hang with.

These people have, no doubt, invested a lot of their finances, talent and their very lives into the respective churches. It's kind of hard when some preacher's squabble spills over and tells you that your kids can't practice Bible quizzing with their cousins in the next county. If it comes down to that, then the preachers need to move on. The saints are "the church," after all (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 14:33; Ephesians 1:1; and etc.).


Who is this guy?? "Pastors is the servant of those people" WOW!!! Brother, I don't know who you are but you are in my prayers today!!!

[rgcraig]

Who is this guy?? "Pastors is the servant of those people" WOW!!! Brother, I don't know who you are but you are in my prayers today!!!

Well, this should be interesting!

[BroGibs]

It can depend. If the "overstretching his authority" is an ideological difference and others in the church see it as such, then you should simply agree to disagree and find another pastor.

However, if the problem imperils the well being of others then you should speak out.

I don't think there are any easy answers here. Anything you do will involve some hurt feelings. Presumably, you (or that other poster) has already invested a lot of time and a big piece of their heart to the church. Sometimes you have to look at the "needs of the many;" and as a Christian that means taking some hits on your own chin while keeping a smile on your face. This is not an easy task.

The true church will stand!!! No man can destroy!!! Man can try, but God has a way of moving them out of his way!!

Here is the problem my Brother, We seem to take possession of the church, it is not your church and it’s not my church it belongs to God. This is the only way to think and keep a good spirit!! If you see something that is wrong in the church or pastor, pray for that. Keep this in mind, never pray against your church or pastor (That witchcraft). You are praying your will and not the will of God. Always pray Gods will!!!!!

Something to think about!!!!

[Michael Phelps]

Sorry brother but this bull feathers.

Here's a scenario for you Br Phelps:

A congregation of 125 regular worshipers just finished paying off their 2 million dollar property.

Their pastor retires and the church elects a new pastor.

This new pastor is all swell for about a year. Then he begins to preach theat cut hair is OK tatoo's are OK.

Just say the "Sinner's prayer" and you'll be saved.

Baptism is OK if you want to , otherwise it's not necesary.

This new pastor has not invested dollar one in this assembly, the membership is very upset with this new fangled teaching.

BUT Br Phelps thay are to be quiet or just walk away from the church THEY built ACCORDING to YOU and give it over to this PASTOR just because he is part of the five fold ministry?????

This pastor on a clergy class pedastal thing we have going today came out of the Catholic Church. it was not a part of the NT church.....they ALL were fellow laborers in the kingdom of God.

Interesing scenario.

What is your suggestion? That they vote him out?

I suppose that is one human way of looking at it.

But, what did they do in Bible times? Did God ever allow a nation to overthrow a wicked king who was living on the donations of the people?

Did God ever sanction a New Testament assembly to "vote out" or "Run out of town on a rail" a pastor?

I agree with you that it's a tremendous injustice when the above situation happens, and I have stated for the record repeatedly that I do NOT agree with a pastor doing this.

However, my position boils down to one simple question:

WHAT IS THE BIBLICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS????????

I don't want your opinion, I want some scripture.

[Michael Phelps]

Interesing scenario.

What is your suggestion? That they vote him out?

I suppose that is one human way of looking at it.

But, what did they do in Bible times? Did God ever allow a nation to overthrow a wicked king who was living on the donations of the people?

Did God ever sanction a New Testament assembly to "vote out" or "Run out of town on a rail" a pastor?

I agree with you that it's a tremendous injustice when the above situation happens, and I have stated for the record repeatedly that I do NOT agree with a pastor doing this.

However, my position boils down to one simple question:

WHAT IS THE BIBLICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS????????

I don't want your opinion, I want some scripture.

(And by the way, a true Christian knows that once they've given their money to the church, it's not their money any more anyway, it's God's, and God will deal with those who misuse it)

[kaymammy]

Bro. Wayne Cardwell is the finest Pastor you could ever ask for. He is not leaving the UPC right now. He has told us that he will give it a year. That is fair. I really hate that a majority of the preachers in the UPC have forsaken the "Old Paths". Bro. Cardwell still preaches it like I first heard it as a child and I am thankful for that!

[Mr. Steinway]

Bro. Wayne Cardwell is the finest Pastor you could ever ask for. He is not leaving the UPC right now. He has told us that he will give it a year. That is fair. I really hate that a majority of the preachers in the UPC have forsaken the "Old Paths". Bro. Cardwell still preaches it like I first heard it as a child and I am thankful for that!
I don't think there's anything in the UPCI to prevent him from carrying on his heartfelt beliefs.

[CC1]

Sorry brother but this bull feathers.

Here's a scenario for you Br Phelps:

A congregation of 125 regular worshipers just finished paying off their 2 million dollar property.

Their pastor retires and the church elects a new pastor.

This new pastor is all swell for about a year. Then he begins to preach theat cut hair is OK tatoo's are OK.

Just say the "Sinner's prayer" and you'll be saved.

Baptism is OK if you want to , otherwise it's not necesary.

This new pastor has not invested dollar one in this assembly, the membership is very upset with this new fangled teaching.

BUT Br Phelps thay are to be quiet or just walk away from the church THEY built ACCORDING to YOU and give it over to this PASTOR just because he is part of the five fold ministry?????

This pastor on a clergy class pedastal thing we have going today came out of the Catholic Church. it was not a part of the NT church.....they ALL were fellow laborers in the kingdom of God.

Ah but this is why a REAL Pentecostal preacher leaves his church to his son or son in law whether or not they are called of God to preach or pastor.:toofunny

[Ferd]

Bro. Wayne Cardwell is the finest Pastor you could ever ask for. He is not leaving the UPC right now. He has told us that he will give it a year. That is fair. I really hate that a majority of the preachers in the UPC have forsaken the "Old Paths". Bro. Cardwell still preaches it like I first heard it as a child and I am thankful for that!

I don't think there's anything in the UPCI to prevent him from carrying on his heartfelt beliefs.

Ivorytickler, in addition to my concurring with you, I dont see anything in km's comments that deny that the church is opposed to WC taking the church out of the org.

What was not stated above speaks louder to me that what was...

[mizpeh]

Bro. Wayne Cardwell is the finest Pastor you could ever ask for. He is not leaving the UPC right now. He has told us that he will give it a year. That is fair. I really hate that a majority of the preachers in the UPC have forsaken the "Old Paths". Bro. Cardwell still preaches it like I first heard it as a child and I am thankful for that!

What old paths have the majority of UPC preachers left?

[kaymammy]

There has been no uprising of saints regarding whether Bro. Cardwell stays in the UPC or not. Most of these comments are coming from folks who felt that God was leading them to leave our church. Who am I to question God? When and if the time to leave comes, there will be a vote taken in our congregation.
The "old paths" referred to are simply the holiness standards that have been with us for years and now some think that they are no longer necessary.

[freeatlast]

Interesing scenario.

What is your suggestion? That they vote him out?

I suppose that is one human way of looking at it.

But, what did they do in Bible times? Did God ever allow a nation to overthrow a wicked king who was living on the donations of the people?

Did God ever sanction a New Testament assembly to "vote out" or "Run out of town on a rail" a pastor?

I agree with you that it's a tremendous injustice when the above situation happens, and I have stated for the record repeatedly that I do NOT agree with a pastor doing this.

However, my position boils down to one simple question:

WHAT IS THE BIBLICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS????????

I don't want your opinion, I want some scripture.

I do know that Paul warned the church about false brethen false teachers. He did instruct them how to deal with these guys.

He told us to follow him ONLY as he followed Christ.

I know paul sure enough got all u[p in the face of Peter..who had the keys of the Kingdom and called him out as the hypocrite he was being in Galatians 2:11-14 Even accusing Peter as leading others (Barnabas) astray.

I do not see the scripture painting a picture that you do to just be quiet and pray and God will take care of an errannt pastor.

I'm not advocating a malicious overthrow of a pastor on petty issues or disagreements over what ime church is going to start.

I'm talking about drastic things that DO happen in some of churches.

I'm saying that the church has a right to have a congregational representive humbly prayerfully approach the pastor and point out the feelings of the congregation.

If they are meant with resistance fron said pastor to the concerns of the congregation and things can not be worked out.

I AM saying that "it's my way or the way". needs to work two ways. this pastor needs to find him self another church.

Why is it that it's the church members that need to walk away and let this pastor take over what they and God have built up over however many years thay have been there.

You might guess I am in NO WAY in favor of these churches that have no board of Elders.

the pastor is the pope....you don't like it...get out..it's my church and I am THEE BOSS.

No annual business meeting ..no accounting of funds recieved.

I really don't think we are to far removed Brother Phelps in out thinking.

other than waiting for God to make things happen when a church is being abused or led astray being your prefered method

I prefer to ask God to help me and the rest of our church board of Elders be helped of God to handle a very unpleasnat situation and deal with the situation before the cogregation is hurt.

As an Elder on our church board that is my job description.

We are thrilled with our pastor. We love him and take care of his needs probablly more generously than we should.

I pray that there is a never a situation that would arise that would warrant action by the board.


ON A SIDE NOTE. We have an outside advisory board set up inour assembly.

We presently have three ministers/pastors on our board that if a ministerial problem ever arose thay can called on for advice.

In the event our pastor, God forbid, was killed in an accident these men that serve oon our advisory board can be called on ito help us find a like minded man to be our new pastor.


Been a pleasure chatting with Br Phepls....hijacked the thread long enough..I'll let it get back to the massive shake up going on :toofunny

[NW Pastor]

Interesing scenario.

What is your suggestion? That they vote him out?

I suppose that is one human way of looking at it.

But, what did they do in Bible times? Did God ever allow a nation to overthrow a wicked king who was living on the donations of the people?

Did God ever sanction a New Testament assembly to "vote out" or "Run out of town on a rail" a pastor?

I agree with you that it's a tremendous injustice when the above situation happens, and I have stated for the record repeatedly that I do NOT agree with a pastor doing this.

However, my position boils down to one simple question:

WHAT IS THE BIBLICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS????????

I don't want your opinion, I want some scripture.

This is a difficult topic, alright, but getting help from kings in Israel is like asking your grandmother to change out your transmission. If you recall, God never wanted kings, he wanted judges. That way they could govern only if the people recognized God's anointing upon their lives. Also, the leadership they excersized would only pass down to children if they were the obvious choice. Otherwise they were rejected and God would anoint someone else.

Also, they did not regulate the daily lives of people as pastors do today. They were spiritual, military, and (sometimes) moral leaders of society who could bind together quarreling times to face a common foe (would to God we could find someone like that today).

Pastors, on the other hand, were generally placed into churches by the founders, and votes to fill vacancies were not recorded. Actually, the exaltation of the role of pastor to a vicar of Christ like status over the saints, not to mention all other components of the five-fold ministry is, in my humble opinion, extra biblical.

Pastors and spiritual leaders only have authority from God as long as they are acting on God's behalf. As Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." Those who follow one who has lost vision of Christ may be regarded as loyal, but they may pay the consequences.

Just ask Jonathan, a godly man who followed his formerly anointed father loyally even though he knew the sad truth that his dad was no longer following God's will. He followed all the to the top of Mt. Gilboa, where he and his father and his brothers were slaughtered and subsequently humiliated.

We pastors need to realize we serve the saints only as well as we serve God.

[Michael Phelps]

This is a difficult topic, alright, but getting help from kings in Israel is like asking your grandmother to change out your transmission. If you recall, God never wanted kings, he wanted judges. That way they could govern only if the people recognized God's anointing upon their lives. Also, the leadership they excersized would only pass down to children if they were the obvious choice. Otherwise they were rejected and God would anoint someone else.

Also, they did not regulate the daily lives of people as pastors do today. They were spiritual, military, and (sometimes) moral leaders of society who could bind together quarreling times to face a common foe (would to God we could find someone like that today).

Pastors, on the other hand, were generally placed into churches by the founders, and votes to fill vacancies were not recorded. Actually, the exaltation of the role of pastor to a vicar of Christ like status over the saints, not to mention all other components of the five-fold ministry is, in my humble opinion, extra biblical.

Pastors and spiritual leaders only have authority from God as long as they are acting on God's behalf. As Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." Those who follow one who has lost vision of Christ may be regarded as loyal, but they may pay the consequences.

Just ask Jonathan, a godly man who followed his formerly anointed father loyally even though he knew the sad truth that his dad was no longer following God's will. He followed all the to the top of Mt. Gilboa, where he and his father and his brothers were slaughtered and subsequently humiliated.

We pastors need to realize we serve the saints only as well as we serve God.

Excellent post - I appreciate your spirit.

[freeatlast]

Excellent post - I appreciate your spirit.

Ditto...err I mean Amen !! good post

[Michael Phelps]

Ditto...err I mean Amen !! good post

Lol, as you said in a previous post, I think we are more congruent in our thinking than incongruent.

I am one of those pastors who resigned an established UPC church because I could no longer preach and teach what they were accustomed to. I did not feel that it was right for me to stay there and tear the church up and run off good people who had poured their blood, sweat and tears into the church over the years.

Some people encouraged me to stay, preach what I felt, and let the chips fall where they may. However, I did not believe, nor do I still believe that is the right thing to do.

So, please - understand that I am not trying to defend pastors who decide to veer dramatically to the left or right and expect their congregations to blindly follow.

In my opinion, if God has given the pastor a "new" revelation, whether to the left or right, he needs to trust God to take care of him, and graciously leave the established body intact.

However, I also do not condone the churches who just decide that the pastor is not preaching the way they like, or he's not using the right people in leadership, or he's not spending enough time at the hospital visiting people, or he's playing golf too much, or he's preaching out too much, etc., and then feel that these grievances give them the right to "fire" him and run him out of town on a rail.

There is a balance, and as I stated in an earlier post, if there is mutual respect, these issues very seldom arise.

[NW Pastor]

If everybody stays full of the HG and learns that the way to greatness is through service, not domination, and pastors make sure the "new" revelations stand the test of the "old" revelation, everything will be alright.

Pastors should be unafraid to preach without fear or favor the whole counsel of God. Emphasis on God!

[freeatlast]

Lol, as you said in a previous post, I think we are more congruent in our thinking than incongruent.

I am one of those pastors who resigned an established UPC church because I could no longer preach and teach what they were accustomed to. I did not feel that it was right for me to stay there and tear the church up and run off good people who had poured their blood, sweat and tears into the church over the years.

Some people encouraged me to stay, preach what I felt, and let the chips fall where they may. However, I did not believe, nor do I still believe that is the right thing to do.

So, please - understand that I am not trying to defend pastors who decide to veer dramatically to the left or right and expect their congregations to blindly follow.

In my opinion, if God has given the pastor a "new" revelation, whether to the left or right, he needs to trust God to take care of him, and graciously leave the established body intact.

However, I also do not condone the churches who just decide that the pastor is not preaching the way they like, or he's not using the right people in leadership, or he's not spending enough time at the hospital visiting people, or he's playing golf too much, or he's preaching out too much, etc., and then feel that these grievances give them the right to "fire" him and run him out of town on a rail.

There is a balance, and as I stated in an earlier post, if there is mutual respect, these issues very seldom arise.

I almost always find my self agreeing with the posts you've made on this forum.

Again I think we agree more than disagree on this issue.

I commend you on your decison to resign that church rather than to possibly cause conflict. That takes a mighty good man my friend.

[Michael Phelps]

I almost always find my self agreeing with the posts you've made on this forum.

Again I think we agree more than disagree on this issue.

I commend you on your decison to resign that church rather than to possibly cause conflict. That takes a mighty good man my friend.

Thank you for your kind words, but I had ulterior motives - I wasn't sure I was up to the fight either, lol.

It would have hurt the church, and although I felt strongly about some things, I knew that the mental anguish and resistance that I would feel would take it's toll, not only on me, but more important - on my family.

It was just the right thing to do, and God has blessed us in many ways.

I'll admit that it's tough tho, especially when you're comfortable, pastor a good church, have a nice home, and a secure income.

There were some dark days pursuant to my decision, but things are much better now, both for the church, and for us.

[dizzyde]

Well, this should be interesting!

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[Rev Dooley]

Interesting.

If true, NOW we'll see how loudly money talks and how much conviction some of these preachers REALLY have.

Will Cardwell and Coon say: "I must stand behind my convictions and I'll go start another church somewhere - or at least try to split off and pastor the split"?

Or, when they think of the tithes and income left behind will they say: "Uh ... maybe I don't need to leave the UPC after all."

This would be devastating politically to any preachers in this trap where their churches are rising up.

Looking back, a lot of these "standards" and preachers vying to see who could preach it more "hard" and "straight" was the result of peer pressure and who could brag the most out under the campmeeting concession stand or the conference halls.

To be seen as too weak to overcome a "carnal" church board and pull a church out and join the rest of the Tulsa gang?

Wow.

THAT would be emasculating.

Anyway, kudos to these churches for being aware and standing up to what really, just amounts to foolishness.

I know both Cardwell and Coon well.

Cardwell's dad, Thomas C., was the longtime pastor of that church, a member of the Louisiana District Board for many years and as fine a man as you'd ever want to meet.

I liked Wayne. He preached for me and we played softball together at youth camp.

Wayne's dad seemed more moderate but Wayne seemed to be more influenced by his more radical brother-in-law, Steve McMullen.

The reports I'm hearing from some sources in DeQuincy, where I have many friends and now-by-divorce ex-family members, is that First UPC is losing quite a few members to Hennigan's.

Coon?

I'm surprised he was involved with this Tulsa thing anyway.

Once again .... if this is true, then kudos to these church boards for recognizing foolishness for what it is.I don't know if this has been addressed, but I will address it now.
As a member of FUPC DQ, a bit of this information is erroneous.
We are not losing "quite a few members" to any other church. Some have left, but they had considered leaving prior to this issue. Just ask them and they will tell you. To date- we had three longtime members leave. That is a small number and the church has continued to grow in spite of it.
You may consider Bro McMullen radical. I guess if you are carnal minded (which I don't know since I don't personally know you), then he may seem that way. To those who wish to live separated lives, he is an excellent minister and highly regarded.

In final defense of one of the finest pastors and men of God that I have known, Bro Cardwell has never once tried to pull the church out of UPCI, nor has he publicly declared that he was leaving the org or wanting to take the church out of it. These are all rumors started by those who maybe wish to see him removed or have some other agenda.

Irregardless, we are having tremendous revival in spite of the enemy using church members to disrupt it.

[Amos]

I don't know if this has been addressed, but I will address it now.
As a member of FUPC DQ, a bit of this information is erroneous.
We are not losing "quite a few members" to any other church. Some have left, but they had considered leaving prior to this issue. Just ask them and they will tell you. To date- we had three longtime members leave. That is a small number and the church has continued to grow in spite of it.
You may consider Bro McMullen radical. I guess if you are carnal minded (which I don't know since I don't personally know you), then he may seem that way. To those who wish to live separated lives, he is an excellent minister and highly regarded.

In final defense of one of the finest pastors and men of God that I have known, Bro Cardwell has never once tried to pull the church out of UPCI, nor has he publicly declared that he was leaving the org or wanting to take the church out of it. These are all rumors started by those who maybe wish to see him removed or have some other agenda.

Irregardless, we are having tremendous revival in spite of the enemy using church members to disrupt it.

I am acquainted with your pastor, and agree that he is top shelf.

Hats off to you for standing up for him here. Faithful, loyal saints are precious beyond words.

[CC1]

I am acquainted with your pastor, and agree that he is top shelf.

Hats off to you for standing up for him here. Faithful, loyal saints are precious beyond words.

I almost spit out my coffee reading this reference to expensive alcohol being used to describe a pastor! LOL!!!

[Amos]

I almost spit out my coffee reading this reference to expensive alcohol being used to describe a pastor! LOL!!!

I wasn't aware of the origin of that metaphor. :)

[CC1]

I wasn't aware of the origin of that metaphor. :)

I don't know the origin of the expression but it refers to bars keeping the most expensive liquor up on the top shelf where it is safe from being stolen or broken by accident.

In some restaurants that serve liquor you will see cocktails on the menu at a certain price and then below that another higher price for the same cocktail with "top shelf" of whatever alcohol is used to make it.

[Rev Dooley]

I almost spit out my coffee reading this reference to expensive alcohol being used to describe a pastor! LOL!!!After I thought about it, I too thought this was funny.
Bro Cardwell is one of the finest men that I have known as well as my former pastor Bro Kinsey. These two have been guiding lights in the lives of my wife and I.
Thank God for pastors who hold the truth.

[david c.]

Interesting turn of events!I don't think that some of these pastors took into account that many of their members have deep roots in the UPC.



.

Actually, I don't think some of these pastors took into account that many of their members had deep use of their own brains. I mean, come on.

[Elizabeth]

Actually, I don't think some of these pastors took into account that many of their members had deep use of their own brains. I mean, come on.
Could you explain this better?

[CC1]

Actually, I don't think some of these pastors took into account that many of their members had deep use of their own brains. I mean, come on.

Welcome David C.

[NLYP]

I don't know if this has been addressed, but I will address it now.
As a member of FUPC DQ, a bit of this information is erroneous.
We are not losing "quite a few members" to any other church. Some have left, but they had considered leaving prior to this issue. Just ask them and they will tell you. To date- we had three longtime members leave. That is a small number and the church has continued to grow in spite of it.
You may consider Bro McMullen radical. I guess if you are carnal minded (which I don't know since I don't personally know you), then he may seem that way. To those who wish to live separated lives, he is an excellent minister and highly regarded.

In final defense of one of the finest pastors and men of God that I have known, Bro Cardwell has never once tried to pull the church out of UPCI, nor has he publicly declared that he was leaving the org or wanting to take the church out of it. These are all rumors started by those who maybe wish to see him removed or have some other agenda.

Irregardless, we are having tremendous revival in spite of the enemy using church members to disrupt it.

Bro..That is not entirely true.....The ones of which you speak which are now at our church were members for over 80 years....two of them are my employees. They NEVER had thoughts about leaving.....Just one day...God told them to go....
But ask the Brother in question...he will tell you...God told him to.
Just to clarify.

[Trouvere]

Shady Grove (DeRidder) was pastored for many years by Wilbern Ashworth, the longtime presbyter of Section 6.

I'm frankly surprised that Phillips had the stroke to pull the church out.

Shady Grove (Jena) was pastored in the past by Louis Green and Jim Vanover. Dan Davis pastored there before he went to Baton Rouge. C. D. Thornton came out of retirement and pastors there now.

The Jena church is in Section 7, where Leland Briggs is now presbyter after G. A. Mangun retired from the district board after being on it some 150 years or so.

Hey Tim
Jim Vanover was my pastor in Crowley years ago.

[embonpoint]

Bro..That is not entirely true.....The ones of which you speak which are now at our church were members for over 80 years....two of them are my employees.

:huh What exactly do octogenarians do around a funeral home? :dunno

[nwlife]

They help model the caskets when young people come to tour and see what they would look like in 50 years or so.

[krawlinson]

My dad, Rev. Carlos Dale Gibson also pastored in Oretta. He is the nephew of
Rev. Arther Gillis, who pastored there for years and Dad is first cousin to A.D. Spears wife. :friend