Tulsa Report Day 2

[Pressing-On]

PO, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and I don't mind admitting that.

But it is just slightly possible that there might not be near as much intrigue and guile here as the detractors want to perceive.

It seemed to me early on that different things, slightly, were being stated by different members of the original six. That tells me that they really might not have totally worked out all the details months in advance the way some want to think.

The concept seems to have evolved somewhat since the first tentative reports came out.

That is what I think.

But I will admit openly that I am biased in favor of men I have respected my whole life, and am hesitant to believe ill of them.
I have many thoughts, but I guess I'll just hide and watch.

[Fireside]

I am saying some of these men claimed they were not going to do the exact thing they are currently doing. They made these claims while planning for a new org was under way.

This is not debatable. It has been verified by many good people.

However, you chose to believe their denials, and still continue to support and uplift these men even though their actions can be viewed as nothing short of deceptive.

Please tell me how you can honestly and objectively chastise men who sign the affirmation statement with no intent to abide by it, while at the same time commending this Tulsa group, who have obviously engaged in unethical and deceptive behavior?

Where is your consistency?

PP, I really have not seen any evidence that these men lied about their intentions.

I think it is entirely possible that there may have been some differences of intent among the original six, that were ultimately worked out and unified in a single direction.

A changed mind isn't the same as a lie.

And as for where my consistency is?

I don't recall ever saying that I was totally without inconsistency. I don't know anyone who is, really. I tend to agree with Emerson on "a foolish consistency."

[Pressing-On]

:stop

Stop this, or I will be glad you are back!

You are glad that I'm back and I know it!!! Did you get your check?

[Nahum]

I am disappointed in you, PP...for what it is worth, very disappointed.

On the one hand you say that Steadie and Coonskinner are fine men, but you question their integrity.

They are two of the finest men I have never met...what has happened to you?!

Barb, don't take this the wrong way, but I really couldn't give a flyin' fajita if you are disappointed in me.

Furthermore, I did not say they had no integrity. I believe the opposite is true.

That's why I continue to be amazed at the obvious double standard.

CS and I are friends. I love and appreciate him. I just wanted to know how he can continue to defend this.

[Nahum]

PP, I really have not seen any evidence that these men lied about their intentions.

I think it is entirely possible that there may have been some differences of intent among the original six, that were ultimately worked out and unified in a single direction.

A changed mind isn't the same as a lie.

And as for where my consistency is?

I don't recall ever saying that I was totally without inconsistency. I don't know anyone who is, really. I tend to agree with Emerson on "a foolish consistency."

But isn't that egotistical?

To require consistency and honesty for some, while denying the need for it from others?:stirpot

[Barb]

Barb, don't take this the wrong way, but I really couldn't give a flyin' fajita if you are dissapointed in me.

Furthermore, I did not say they had no integrity. I believe the opposite is true.

That's why I continue to be amazed at the obvious double standard.

CS and I are friends. I love and appreciate him. I just wanted to know how he can continue to defend this.

You have changed, PP...

And for the record, you DID say their integrity was in question.

Carry on...

[Fireside]

How is my post troubling?

I am not trying to be vicious here, I just don't think that entire conversation should be swept under the rug.

I was banned over that event.

I took my punishment - no problem.

I just think there is an issue that is being overlooked here.

I don't remember the exact events of your banning, but if I recall, the issue was not your opinion, but the way in which you expressed it.

I am not trying to sweep anything under any rug here.

Go back and pull the quotes from that exchange if you like.

I have been wrong about stuff before, and have had to retract statements I made in error. I am not terrified of that prospect.

If I am guilty, it is of being overly trusting of men I respect.

I can live with that.

[Nahum]

You have changed, PP...

And for the record, you DID say their integrity was in question.

Carry on...

Thank you for your analysis Barb.

Yes, I have changed. I become more and more independent-minded as the years go by. I no longer believe everything leadership says unless there is a proven record of trustworthiness.

And Barb, I have many good role models who completely agree with me on this, including leaders in the org I am a part of.

[Mr. Steinway]

If I am guilty, it is of being overly trusting of men I respect.

I can live with that.

I see nothing wrong with this at all! This is completely normal! :)

[StMark]

Coon,

Are you and others aware that NW ran for Dist Supt of Calif. back in May of 2007?

just wondering

[Fireside]

But isn't that egotistical?

To require consistency and honesty for some, while denying the need for it from others?:stirpot


Brother, I think we would agree that all of us would have an inconsistency or two in our lives if someone wanted to look closely enough.

Not every inconsistency is of the same magnitude as a deliberate deception.

You choose to believe reports that these men were deliberately deceptive; I do not.

I haven't seen any proof of that, just hearsay.

If there is proof, that would be different.

If it exists, I haven't seen it.

And if it is egotistical?

OK.

I have an ego. Never denied that.

I'm not glorified yet.

[Pressing-On]

PP, I really have not seen any evidence that these men lied about their intentions.

I think it is entirely possible that there may have been some differences of intent among the original six, that were ultimately worked out and unified in a single direction.

A changed mind isn't the same as a lie.

And as for where my consistency is?

I don't recall ever saying that I was totally without inconsistency. I don't know anyone who is, really. I tend to agree with Emerson on "a foolish consistency."
CS,
I do want to express one thing because I feel a bit torn. I'm not reflecting so much on any opposing side. I'm just looking back over 20 years and remembering experiences with more conservative churches and those that were not so much.

I found good and bad in them all. I found God in them all.

Sometimes it just seemed that the harder the Conservative the less patient and more judgmental.

Then there were those that were more liberal and you become annoyed because it seemed to trample on the more decent things that we needed to represent as God's people.

So, I'm looking at both and knowing that only our personal desires and relationship will give us direction for our own personal lives and get us to heaven in the end. I can only follow or stay where God leads me. I can't be worried what others are going to do.

[Fireside]

Coon,

Are you and others aware that NW ran for Dist Supt of Calif. back in May of 2007?

just wondering

Yeah.

He isn't the only man on the committee, Mark.

I don't think all their motivations were exactly the same.

[jbigg]

I personally know 5 of those guys....
one lost his church b/c of immoral actions


while in the AC of JC or in the UPCI?

[Barb]

Coon,

Are you and others aware that NW ran for Dist Supt of Calif. back in May of 2007?

just wondering

Yes, I am aware of it.

And...?!

[Nahum]

I don't remember the exact events of your banning, but if I recall, the issue was not your opinion, but the way in which you expressed it.

I am not trying to sweep anything under any rug here.

Go back and pull the quotes from that exchange if you like.

I have been wrong about stuff before, and have had to retract statements I made in error. I am not terrified of that prospect.

If I am guilty, it is of being overly trusting of men I respect.

I can live with that.

I don't think that effort would bring value to the discussion.

It's enough to know you do remember it.

Here we are four months later and time has proven all things (as it usually does).

[StMark]

*** News Update **


We will soon know who was voted in as the Supt. of the newly formed So. Cal.Dist.t is happening at 11 am today in San Bernardino pacific time

[Nahum]

Brother, I think we would agree that all of us would have an inconsistency or two in our lives if someone wanted to look closely enough.

Not every inconsistency is of the same magnitude as a deliberate deception.

You choose to believe reports that these men were deliberately deceptive; I do not.

I haven't seen any proof of that, just hearsay.

If there is proof, that would be different.

If it exists, I haven't seen it.

And if it is egotistical?

OK.

I have an ego. Never denied that.

I'm not glorified yet.

LOL:toofunny

[StMark]

Yes, I am aware of it.

And...?!

That's all i was asking .......carry on

[Fireside]

I don't think that effort would bring value to the discussion.

It's enough to know you do remember it.

Here we are four months later and time has proven all things (as it usually does).


Time has proven that an organization did come out of Tulsa.

You were exactly right about that.

Not an organization issuing licenses and ministerial credentials, as such, but an organization nonetheless.

[Barb]

That's all i was asking .......carry on

LOL!!

[MissBrattified]

I found good and bad in them all. I found God in them all.

I like this statement. I feel the same way.

[Fireside]

I like this statement. I feel the same way.

That reminds me of an old worldly song by T.G. Shepherd, "I Loved Em Every One."

;)

[MissBrattified]

That reminds me of an old worldly song by T.G. Shepherd, "I Loved Em Every One."

;)

:girlyluv

[Pressing-On]

I like this statement. I feel the same way.

It makes you want to cry, doesn't it?

[StMark]

LOL!!


and what is the laughter about ?

[MissBrattified]

It makes you want to cry, doesn't it?

I do wish that more folks had the same perspective, and were looking for the "God in them all", rather than looking at the humanity of it all.

[Pressing-On]

I do wish that more folks had the same perspective, and were looking for the "God in them all", rather than looking at the humanity of it all.
I think, at some point, we all really do that. If we sat down and thought it through. I've been through church splits, pastors running off with women, yada, yada, but God has ALWAYS been present!

He says in Psalm 31:21, "Blessed be the LORD: for he hath shewed me his marvellous kindness in a strong city."

Lord, I feel His presence!!!

[PastorD]

Time has proven that an organization did come out of Tulsa.

You were exactly right about that.

Not an organization issuing licenses and ministerial credentials, as such, but an organization nonetheless.


Yet . . .They just gotta work out that pesky affiliation problem first.

:TulsaNO:

[rgcraig]

Perhaps they didn't anticipate how many were going to participate at the outset and when they found out decided it was enough to form an organization?

Sounds good, but there's been talk of another org since the GC at Salt Lake City.

[StMark]

I have to say,you do have to admire loyalty

[Barb]

I do wish that more folks had the same perspective, and were looking for the "God in them all", rather than looking at the humanity of it all.

Amen...

[Nahum]

Sounds good, but there's been talk of another org since the GC at Salt Lake City.

Renda, Renda, Renda......any moment now someone is gonna tell you they are disappointed in you for saying such things!:TulsaROCKS:


Don't you know it's only deception if the OTHER guy is doing it?

[rgcraig]

I do wish that more folks had the same perspective, and were looking for the "God in them all", rather than looking at the humanity of it all.

I think that would be a good suggestion and, also remember that they are all human.

[Felicity]

Live and let live. It will all work out.

People are people. Men will be men. And God is over it all. He knows what we don't know. He sees what we don't see. He's keeping accurate count and account.

Don't worry. Be happy.

:thumbsup

[StMark]

All of this talk about being at peace with the UPC sounds good politically,but if it was really true,why are they making their young people break all ties with their friends from other UPC churches?


Interesting comment.That has been a common conversation of late.
anyone else know about this or have facts, stories,etc ?

[Nahum]

Live and let live. It will all work out.

People are people. Men will be men. And God is over it all. He knows what we don't know. He sees what we don't see. He's keeping accurate count and account.

Don't worry. Be happy.

:thumbsup

Good advice.

Now if we can just get these guys to let us live our lives without fear.:tvhappy

[rgcraig]

Live and let live. It will all work out.

People are people. Men will be men. And God is over it all. He knows what we don't know. He sees what we don't see. He's keeping accurate count and account.

Don't worry. Be happy.

:thumbsup

We're just having a discussion.

[rgcraig]

Interesting comment.That has been a common conversation of late.
anyone else know about this or have facts, stories,etc ?

I know I've heard it and if that's true, then I find it hard to believe that they will try too hard to continue their relationships with other ministers.

[Pressing-On]

Good advice.

Now if we can just get these guys to let us live our lives without fear.:tvhappy
What are you watching? We might could start another thread and distract the conversation? :toofunny

[George]

All of this talk about being at peace with the UPC sounds good politically,but if it was really true,why are they making their young people break all ties with their friends from other UPC churches?


Interesting comment.That has been a common conversation lately of late.
anyone else know about this or have facts, stories,etc ?

First hand knowledge - several very conservative young people in my relative's church friendship has been cut because they remain in a UPC church.

There was a post on ABN Global by a young man who was crying because his girlfriend broke up with him because he attended a UPC church.

A pastors daughter received a call from a Tulsa bound church youth asking her whose side she was on. The young person informed her if she chose the UPC they could not be friends.

Out of two or three witnesses.....

[rgcraig]

First hand knowledge - several very conservative young people in my relative's church friendship has been cut because they remain in a UPC church.

There was a post on ABN Global by a young man who was crying because his girlfriend broke up with him because he attended a UPC church.

A pastors daughter received a call from a Tulsa bound church youth asking her whose side she was on. The young person informed her if she chose the UPC they could not be friends.

Out of two or three witnesses.....

This is the root of the problem I see hurting more than anything. We can make excuses all day long for the grown-ups, but what are these actions telling the young people!

[Weary Pilgrim]

I do wish that more folks had the same perspective, and were looking for the "God in them all", rather than looking at the humanity of it all.


It might help if everyone from all standpoints admitted that there is a human side to this situation as well.

Has there been any admission? No not at all,and I believe that is what frustrates a lot of people.

[George]

This is the root of the problem I see hurting more than anything. We can make excuses all day long for the grown-ups, but what are these actions telling the young people!

My relative's church has a young person that has been crying at night over the hurt of losing so many friends.

[Barb]

Live and let live. It will all work out.

People are people. Men will be men. And God is over it all. He knows what we don't know. He sees what we don't see. He's keeping accurate count and account.

Don't worry. Be happy.

:thumbsup

Good advice.


Yes it is, PP, and I apologize for crossing a line today when responding to your posts.

God does indeed know it all...

[Weary Pilgrim]

First hand knowledge - several very conservative young people in my relative's church friendship has been cut because they remain in a UPC church.

There was a post on ABN Global by a young man who was crying because his girlfriend broke up with him because he attended a UPC church.

A pastors daughter received a call from a Tulsa bound church youth asking her whose side she was on. The young person informed her if she chose the UPC they could not be friends.

Out of two or three witnesses.....


Absolutely true!!!

In fact, there was a young girl from a Tulsa bound church that was forced to break up with her boyfriend "because he was UPC".Her boyfriend happend to be the pastor's son!

[rgcraig]

My relative's church has a young person that has been crying at night over the hurt of losing so many friends.

This just breaks my heart...............

I know in time things will settle down, but really what in the world does this tell our young people? Not to mention the families that are split over this.

[George]

It might help if everyone from all standpoints admitted that there is a human side to this situation as well.

Has there been any admission? No not at all,and I believe that is what frustrates a lot of people.

You are right. Frustrated is a good word. A month ago, 2 executive council members and more than 5 general council members of WPF denied they were forming an organization. Why didn't they admit the truth immediately? We all know it is an organization and has been in the making for a lot longer than a month.

[Barb]

This just breaks my heart...............

I know in time things will settle down, but really what in the world does this tell our young people? Not to mention the families that are split over this.

I know of a father and son out West...it is heartbreaking indeed.

[StMark]

My relative's church has a young person that has been crying at night over the hurt of losing so many friends.


Is this coming from the leaders? are they telling their youth to break off?

what are the reasons these kids from WPF churches giving them?

[Nahum]

You are right. Frustrated is a good word. A month ago, 2 executive council members and more than 5 general council members of WPF denied they were forming an organization. Why didn't they admit the truth immediately? We all know it is an organization and has been in the making for a lot longer than a month.


Truth.

Funny how it gets lost in alll the minutia, huh?

Funny how "men of integrity" can lay it down at a moments notice too.

I mean when it's convenient and all.:TulsaTime:

[rgcraig]

Is this coming from the leaders? are they telling their youth to break off?

what are the reasons these kids from WPF churches giving them?

Well, it's not coming from the kids!

They'll give them the same reason we use to give for not doing the things we did when growing up - - because my church doesn't believe in it.

[StMark]

You are right. Frustrated is a good word. A month ago, 2 executive council members and more than 5 general council members of WPF denied they were forming an organization. Why didn't they admit the truth immediately? We all know it is an organization and has been in the making for a lot longer than a month.


My question is this,why would they have wanted to keep it quiet?
Perhaps because the UPC would have had more time to fight against them?

[Cindy]

Well if the WPF and UPCI have discussions like we have on AFF no wonder there is confusion......So many people, so many opinions, and each one is right! :)

[StMark]

Well, it's not coming from the kids!

They'll give them the same reason we use to give for not doing the things we did when growing up - - because my church doesn't believe in it.

No,I understand it wouldn't be coming from the kids.

In light of them announcing at Tulsa that they are willing to fellowship with the UPC, why would they be telling their youth not to ??????



.

[George]

Is this coming from the leaders? are they telling their youth to break off?

what are the reasons these kids from WPF churches giving them?

Some leaders have been directly questioned as to why they won't allow their young people to fellowship UPC. They denied telling them they couldn't. The fact is they are not directly telling them "Don't fellowship UPC" but rather preaching the UPC has taken the wrong path, doesn't have holiness standards, don't believe the message, etc. Good saints understand their pastor and believe if the UPC is taking such a bad turn we need to stay away.
One WPF general council member preached to his church "We aren't the ones who left the UPC the (church across town) left the UPC long ago." He was referring to the "message" and "doctrine" of the UPC. The "church across town" is a wonderful, conservative UPC church. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out saints are going to think if my pastor will not remain UPC it must be so bad I should disassociate.

[rgcraig]

No,I understand it wouldn't be coming from the kids.

In light of them announcing at Tulsa that they are willing to fellowship with the UPC, why would they be telling their youth not to ??????
.
Good question and one that could only be answered by the ones telling their young people that.

What I see is there will be some that feel this way and some that won't and in time they'll have problems within just like UPC does now. As long as there are humans involved there are going to be disagreements and problems.

[Felicity]

What I see is there will be some that feel this way and some that won't and in time they'll have problems within just like UPC does now. As long as there are humans involved there are going to be disagreements and problems.Now there's a profound statement. LOL. ;) :)

And you're absolutely right.

[rgcraig]

Now there's a profound statement. LOL. ;) :)

And you're absolutely right.

Not profound at all - just common sense, but thanks.

[George]

No,I understand it wouldn't be coming from the kids.

In light of them announcing at Tulsa that they are willing to fellowship with the UPC, why would they be telling their youth not to ??????



.

Key word - willing. They are willing to fellowship the UPC if it meets their criteria for fellowship.
Another possiblity. They have received so many phone calls and letters because of not allowing youth to fellowship UPC they are trying to smooth it over. All the talk about coexisting comes across defensive.

[Felicity]

Good advice.

Now if we can just get these guys to let us live our lives without fear.:tvhappyThanks.

From what I'm hearing, bro, there are many who are doing pretty much whatever they want. (Talking about UPC preachers here.) I guess the fear factor would depend on the district you're in to a large extent. ;) :)

[Pressing-On]

Good question and one that could only be answered by the ones telling their young people that.

What I see is there will be some that feel this way and some that won't and in time they'll have problems within just like UPC does now. As long as there are humans involved there are going to be disagreements and problems.

I asked my husband if he ever paid much attention to the women's hair. He said, "Yes, because we hear it preached all the time." lol

[Felicity]

No fear factor here.

[StMark]

Some leaders have been directly questioned as to why they won't allow their young people to fellowship UPC. They denied telling them they couldn't. The fact is they are not directly telling them "Don't fellowship UPC" but rather preaching the UPC has taken the wrong path, doesn't have holiness standards, don't believe the message, etc. Good saints understand their pastor and believe if the UPC is taking such a bad turn we need to stay away.
One WPF general council member preached to his church "We aren't the ones who left the UPC the (church across town) left the UPC long ago." He was referring to the "message" and "doctrine" of the UPC. The "church across town" is a wonderful, conservative UPC church. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out saints are going to think if my pastor will not remain UPC it must be so bad I should disassociate.


Really???? This is so surprising!

[StMark]

Key word - willing. They are willing to fellowship the UPC if it meets their criteria for fellowship.
Another possiblity. They have received so many phone calls and letters because of not allowing youth to fellowship UPC they are trying to smooth it over. All the talk about coexisting comes across defensive.

All of this is just too hard to believe George

[AGAPE]

while in the AC of JC or in the UPCI?

upc

[AGAPE]

we stopped fellowshipping youth camps and rallies while we were still upc...

and we have one of the better youth camps/rallies

Tom Foster, Doug White, etc being night speakers

the abundance of jewelry and "revealing" clothing helped push us over the line...

[George]

All of this is just too hard to believe George

You are right. It is very hard to believe because we have respected these men for so long our minds do not want to accept they have let us down. Disappointing is another word. I believe in ethics as much as any holiness standard and feel strongly disappointed in these men.

[Weary Pilgrim]

we stopped fellowshipping youth camps and rallies while we were still upc...

and we have one of the better youth camps/rallies

Tom Foster, Doug White, etc being night speakers

the abundance of jewelry and "revealing" clothing helped push us over the line...

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

[Felicity]

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".This is a problem in most churches - hard line or not.

[freeatlast]

we stopped fellowshipping youth camps and rallies while we were still upc...

and we have one of the better youth camps/rallies

Tom Foster, Doug White, etc being night speakers

the abundance of jewelry and "revealing" clothing helped push us over the line...

Where is this at AGAPE? Texas?

[StMark]

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

That was a little mean-spirited

[scotty]

Has anyone spotted Bro.Paul Price or Bro.Brown.


Doubt seriously Bro. Price will be there

[StMark]

Where is this at AGAPE? Texas?


Mississippi

[George]

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

That was pretty hard but I have heard it is true in the California UPC.

[Minister_WD]

Doubt seriously Bro. Price will be there


I will have to ask about this.....last I heard Price and Brown announced that they were leaving the UPC.Whether or not they were going with Tulsa remains the question

[Todd]

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".
You say these are the facts. But do you have hard numbers to prove these 'facts'? When you start saying facts, you step outside the realm of speculation, facts require proof.:stirpot

[Dan]

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

You know Tim.....I agree with you. And if others would confess it, they know the same things.

Maybe we need to understand what WWPF stands for. How about W____ Wins Power Finally?

Just my opinion.

[Todd]

Mississippi
I'm from MS, wife from TX. It had to be one of us.:happydance

[StMark]

You say these are the facts. But do you have hard numbers to prove these 'facts'? When you start saying facts, you step outside the realm of speculation, facts require proof.:stirpot

I don't see any point in digging up a lot of dirty laundry. many people have married and made things right in the past

[Cindy]

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

What about the boys? And I find it hard to believe that all of your post is FACT.

[Music4Jesus]

get em granny LOL

[scotty]

I will have to ask about this.....last I heard Price and Brown announced that they were leaving the UPC.Whether or not they were going with Tulsa remains the question

Must be a different Paul Price.

The one I know is out of Arkansas.

[Todd]

What about the boys? And I find it hard to believe that all of your post is FACT.

I pray to God my wife does not see that one! That has always been her biggest beef with the church. Well said though.

[StMark]

What about the boys? And I find it hard to believe that all of your post is FACT.


Well,if we are honest,the holiness dress code is judged by the women's attire. It's the way it is---have to deal with it ladies

[embonpoint]

First hand knowledge - several very conservative young people in my relative's church friendship has been cut because they remain in a UPC church.

There was a post on ABN Global by a young man who was crying because his girlfriend broke up with him because he attended a UPC church.

A pastors daughter received a call from a Tulsa bound church youth asking her whose side she was on. The young person informed her if she chose the UPC they could not be friends.

Out of two or three witnesses.....

And if it would edify anyone I could give numerous examples of the shoe being on the other foot. Those who have been excluded from fellowship or otherwise denigrated because they did not have a particular brand or carry the right card.

Is it impossible to understand that after dealing with some issues like those described by Steadfast, or even of lesser magnitude, that a shepherd might decide that he has three choices

1. Let things continue as they are and deal with the issues and damage as they occur.
2. Address the real or perceived shortcomings of another church/fellowship from the pulpit or in private considering the ramifications of being a talebearer and damaging the confidence of people in the ministry.
3. Quit announcing and participating in those meetings he is not comfortable with and look for alternatives that he feels would be a safer environment to fellowship. For me I am comfortable with this choice.

My point being that some leave or lessen their participation in the interest of keeping a good spirit and not having to speak negatively about someone else. Will there be those who will take potshots? Yes, in my experience it will happen from both sides, having more to do with the character of the individual shooter than the particular group with which he aligns.

Each pastor has to make his own decision based on his area, experience, congregation and the actual issues being dealt with. There are at least theoretical pluses and minuses to each choice. It seems to me that most of the real contention arises when we begin to “pick at” and impute motives for these decisions. .

[Cindy]

Well,if we are honest,the holiness dress code is judged by the women's attire. It's the way it is---have to deal with it ladies

Well duh! But governed mostly by men in the church. And if they don't think their holiness boys were doing unholy things with girls they are blind. Yes the ladies have to live with it, and that is the sad part the judging by the dress code, the boys had no such thing usually. Although I do give honor to my former pastor that taught against tight pants on boys as much as he did girls dresses. And that was back in the 50's and 60's. Do you think that always went over well with the boys?

[Dora]

Stand by for the Kool-aid...

[StMark]

Well duh! But governed mostly by men in the church. And if they don't think their holiness boys were doing unholy things with girls they are blind. Yes the ladies have to live with it, and that is the sad part the judging by the dress code, the boys had no such thing usually. Although I do give honor to my former pastor that taught against tight pants on boys as much as he did girls dresses. And that was back in the 50's and 60's. Do you think that always went over well with the boys?

Sister, i was just stating the facts-you have to give me credit for telling the truth. holiness in Pentecost is "visual" for the most part.
Just know this,you may not think it's fair but men have a greater battle to deal with than a a few rules of modesty

[StMark]

Stand by for the Kool-aid...



why do you say??? what made you come out with that?

[Cindy]

Sister, i was just stating the facts-you have to give me credit for telling the truth. holiness in Pentecost is "visual" for the most part.
Just know this,you may not think it's fair but men have a greater battle to deal with than a a few rules of modesty

I understand that brother, since most preachers are men and have very heavy burdens of standards placed on them. But dressing a certain way was not as spoken about as what women were suppose to look like. Most of them men just had to preach it not live it.

[MissBrattified]

Sister, i was just stating the facts-you have to give me credit for telling the truth. holiness in Pentecost is "visual" for the most part.
Just know this,you may not think it's fair but men have a greater battle to deal with than a a few rules of modesty

They do?

[Dora]

All of this is just too hard to believe George

Mark is stirring it up! :stirpot

[scotty]

( Scotty lowers head and quietly shuffles across room as far as possible from StMark )

:shhh

[Cindy]

( Scotty lowers head and quietly shuffles across room as far as possible from StMark )

:shhh

Hahaha, where ya been Scotty? Missed ya round here. :girlytantrum......:D

[scotty]

Busy, lots of working

Glad to be back though

Thank you

[rgcraig]

Sister, i was just stating the facts-you have to give me credit for telling the truth. holiness in Pentecost is "visual" for the most part.
Just know this,you may not think it's fair but men have a greater battle to deal with than a a few rules of modesty

You are going to say immorality......but, I think the real issue with men is ego.

[scotty]

( Scotty scoots further away from StMark and readies himself to take cover )

[Music4Jesus]

the standards i live are not a burden

[George]

:girlyluvpurdy girls can be tempting:girlytantrum

[scotty]

You are going to say immorality......but, I think the real issue with men is ego.

Thats plural, now why you wanna go lump us all together like that, not all men think that way, some of us men like the bed we sleep in and have no affection for the dog house whatsoever.

:reaction


(gone a few days, come back and some guy is trying to start a war of the sexes we can't win,,,, and all my smilies are gone.....whats with that?!?!?!! )

[grace_seeker]

*** News Update **


We will soon know who was voted in as the Supt. of the newly formed So. Cal.Dist.t is happening at 11 am today in San Bernardino pacific time

It's 2:19 PM Cali Time.....who was voted in?

[StMark]

It's 2:19 PM Cali Time.....who was voted in?


Art Hodges - San Diego

[Hoovie]

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

DJ, this has also been my observation. While I am not sure I can say they "had the most" it is apparant the hardline positions did not foster any special insulation, and that seems to be the point.

[stmatthew]

Art Hodges - San Diego

ain't he considered liberal???

[RevBuddy]

Hey, Ya'll...

Do you think it's tooooo early to have "merger" talks between the two organizations - the UPCI and the WPF?

I feel confident that there are many areas of mutual agreement and vision. Let's have 1 or 2 representatives from each organization meet to discuss potential dates and locations for official "merger" talks to be held. I'm sure these wonderful, anointed men can find a clear and true path to reconciliation and join together for the mutual benefit of all parties involved...

"Can't we all just get along?" Come on now, let's say, "yes" to the UWPFI!!

[RevBuddy]

Art Hodges - San Diego

Duh...who else...please tell me????

[scotty]

Hey, Ya'll...

Do you think it's tooooo early to have "merger" talks between the two organizations - the UPCI and the WPF?

I feel confident that there are many areas of mutual agreement and vision. Let's have 1 or 2 representatives from each organization meet to discuss potential dates and locations for official "merger" talks to be held. I'm sure these wonderful, anointed men can find a clear and true path to reconciliation and join together for the mutual benefit of all parties involved...

"Can't we all just get along?" Come on now, let's say, "yes" to the UWPFI!!


Why not , they are the same. Just that someone else wanted to sit on the high seat.

[Mrs. LPW]

They do?

I don't know if it's a lot more difficult.. but for certain even the world agree's men fight their battles inwardly...
And men are stimulated by sight more so than women are.
Men are commanded to lift up holy hands without wrath or doubting. They've got a burden to bear too...

[Hoovie]

Hey, Ya'll...

Do you think it's tooooo early to have "merger" talks between the two organizations - the UPCI and the WPF?

I feel confident that there are many areas of mutual agreement and vision. Let's have 1 or 2 representatives from each organization meet to discuss potential dates and locations for official "merger" talks to be held. I'm sure these wonderful, anointed men can find a clear and true path to reconciliation and join together for the mutual benefit of all parties involved...

"Can't we all just get along?" Come on now, let's say, "yes" to the UWPFI!!

:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny



:stirpot

[Cindy]

DJ, this has also been my observation. While I am not sure I can say they "had the most" it is apparant the hardline positions did not foster any special insulation, and that seems to be the point.

You may be right Stephen, but neither did the soft line. Teenagers of any group have a hard time resisting temptation. And DJ only pointed out the girl's dress as a point. Who do you think the boys were that were in that group or any group. Modestly dressed or not they all faced the same problems.

[Felicity]

They do?LOL. I agree with your question.

[Hoovie]

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

Tim, you have a brutal way of being honest. Thank You!

[RevBuddy]

Tim...I like your style...straight to the point...there's no substitute for pure honesty...

but there are others who are still practicing the fine, gentleman's art of rationalization...

[revrandy]

Hey, Ya'll...

Do you think it's tooooo early to have "merger" talks between the two organizations - the UPCI and the WPF?

I feel confident that there are many areas of mutual agreement and vision. Let's have 1 or 2 representatives from each organization meet to discuss potential dates and locations for official "merger" talks to be held. I'm sure these wonderful, anointed men can find a clear and true path to reconciliation and join together for the mutual benefit of all parties involved...

"Can't we all just get along?" Come on now, let's say, "yes" to the UWPFI!!


Or howsabout'... WUPPIFC :)

or PUPWIFC

or FUWPICP???

[RevBuddy]

Why not , they are the same. Just that someone else wanted to sit on the high seat.


No problem, mon! We can create additional Assistant and Deputy Superintendents positions...now we only have the Eastern and Western zone Assistant Superintendents...after carefully considering all those who really NEED a position to feel loved...

we can have Assistant Superintendents for the Western, Eastern, Southern, Northern, Ultra Conservative, Conservative, Kinda Conservative, More Moderate, Moderate, Less Moderate, Less Liberal, Liberal, More Liberal and Simply Ridiculouis Zones...

that will create at least 12 more high official positions of influence and effectiveness...surely we have room in the organizational structure for all our mutual friends and egomaniacs!!!

[NW Pastor]

How is my post troubling?

I am not trying to be vicious here, I just don't think that entire conversation should be swept under the rug.

I was banned over that event.

I took my punishment - no problem.

I just think there is an issue that is being overlooked here.

Does anyone on this forum believe for one minute that there will not be a new, totally separate organization which will arise from the WPF "fellowship"? All of this blather over who said what when gets a little tiresome. There will be a separation. Period.

[RevBuddy]

PP and NW Pastor...

You both are EXACTLY CORRECT...no question.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[NW Pastor]

Time will tell.

[SavedLou]

Does anyone on this forum believe for one minute that there will not be a new, totally separate organization which will arise from the WPF "fellowship"? All of this blather over who said what when gets a little tiresome. There will be a separation. Period.

imho...one good look at the website and you would have to be blind to think otherwise. :2cents

[NW Pastor]

This is why the righteous indignation of the Tulsa defenders on this forum rings so hollow. They all know there will be a real and painful splintering of organizational bonds, regardless of all public declarations or lack thereof by the Tulsa founders.

[RevBuddy]

These "defenders" are using an elastic double standard...one for "their guys" to do whatever is necessary...and another that quickly closes in our "their guys'" opposition.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[connielori]

You know Tim.....I agree with you. And if others would confess it, they know the same things.

Maybe we need to understand what WWPF stands for. How about W____ Wins Power Finally?

Just my opinion.



You obiviously don't know DR. W_________. He certainly doesn't have to be at the head of ANYTHING to have 'power'. Dr. W____________ is success personified. Take a trip to CA, and visit his church. Get an education on the growth and revival his church has experienced from his leadership....in a very small amount of time. Read a couple of his books. This is a GREAT man. A powerful man of God.....who needs validation from NO ONE.

[pelathais]

The organizers are playing a careful game. They believe that they stand to gain a lot so they're careful with their words. Also, nothing exists in spoken words the way it appears on paper.

For example, no one's name was used without their permission. Period. That was checked and rechecked and no one was found to have slipped through. Yet when KH's letter is brought up where he describes people who said that their names were used without permission - does a contradiction exist? No! It's just a matter of timing and a misunderstanding. KH is "correct," but at the same time "mistaken."

Also, when the claims that "no organization was being formed" were being thrown around after Tampa, angry words were said to the skeptics. When the Bible quizzing site was put up, those angry words ceased and a wait-and-see attitude developed. Then when a full blown bureaucracy was revealed we were told that this was the plan all along. You were mistaken to have said, "No new organization was being formed."

The WPF web site was "hacked" when links to publically accessible pages were posted here. Apparently Google was involved in the "hacking" because the webmasters were careful to have submitted their brand new pages to the search engine for public indexing. Since when is submitting your own public web pages to Google so that anyone in the world can find them called "privacy?" But that's what the Tulsa organizers want us to believe.

Questions arose about the ethics of the recruiting methods. The UPCI mailing list was and then wasn't, and then was obtained for purposes of recruitment. Somehow WEC either waived all their standard procedures for the use of this list or ethics don't really apply when WEC is the "backslidden" party.

Using the UPC to split itself is "okay" because "no new organization was being formed." But then when the organization is formed, the participants all boast about the fine spirit in which this was done.

And we are called upon to applaud this work? Okay. I applaud. If they can keep it up for another year I will stand and applaud. But I would hope that they would blush before then.

[NW Pastor]

So true.

[PastorD]

You obiviously don't know DR. W_________. He certainly doesn't have to be at the head of ANYTHING to have 'power'. Dr. W____________ is success personified. Take a trip to CA, and visit his church. Get an education on the growth and revival his church has experienced from his leadership....in a very small amount of time. Read a couple of his books. This is a GREAT man. A powerful man of God.....who needs validation from NO ONE.


And yet he got up and walked out when he lost by 4 votes never to return again.


:bored

[NW Pastor]

And yet he got up and walked out when he lost by 4 votes never to return again.


:bored

And he was not even at the Tampa conference to use his influence to defeat resolution 4. I wonder why? Perhaps if he had gone to Tampa, there would have been no Tulsa.

[TrmptPraise]

The organizers are playing a careful game. They believe that they stand to gain a lot so they're careful with their words. Also, nothing exists in spoken words the way it appears on paper.

For example, no one's name was used without their permission. Period. That was checked and rechecked and no one was found to have slipped through. Yet when KH's letter is brought up where he describes people who said that their names were used without permission - does a contradiction exist? No! It's just a matter of timing and a misunderstanding. KH is "correct," but at the same time "mistaken."

Also, when the claims that "no organization was being formed" were being thrown around after Tampa, angry words were said to the skeptics. When the Bible quizzing site was put up, those angry words ceased and a wait-and-see attitude developed. Then when a full blown bureaucracy was revealed we were told that this was the plan all along. You were mistaken to have said, "No new organization was being formed."

The WPF web site was "hacked" when links to publically accessible pages were posted here. Apparently Google was involved in the "hacking" because the webmasters were careful to have submitted their brand new pages to the search engine for public indexing. Since when is submitting your own public web pages to Google so that anyone in the world can find them called "privacy?" But that's what the Tulsa organizers want us to believe.

Questions arose about the ethics of the recruiting methods. The UPCI mailing list was and then wasn't, and then was obtained for purposes of recruitment. Somehow WEC either waived all their standard procedures for the use of this list or ethics don't really apply when WEC is the "backslidden" party.

Using the UPC to split itself is "okay" because "no new organization was being formed." But then when the organization is formed, the participants all boast about the fine spirit in which this was done.

And we are called upon to applaud this work? Okay. I applaud. If they can keep it up for another year I will stand and applaud. But I would hope that they would blush before then.

:scoregood That scoring judge on the right is being investigated. ;)

[connielori]

And he was not even at the Tampa conference to use his influence to defeat resolution 4. I wonder why? Perhaps if he had gone to Tampa, there would have been no Tulsa.


UUUUmmmmmmm If I remember right......It was voted AGAINST the year prior. Do we just keep bringing it back up every year?...

Perhaps if they hadn't brought it up AGAIN there would be no Tulsa.

[Praxeas]

We really can't go by the numbers posted here can we. I am not saying the 1500 number in inaccurate. What I am saying is that we have no break down of those in attendance. What percentage are UPC ministers, what percentage are independents looking for a fellowship, what percentage are "observers?" We really won't know what the actual number will be until this is over and we see the number of "sign ups." correct?
Well....you know how Pentecostals count heads right? 1,2,5,6,9.....

They also tend to count the same head twice....from a different angle

[NW Pastor]

UUUUmmmmmmm If I remember right......It was voted AGAINST the year prior. Do we just keep bringing it back up every year?...

Perhaps if they hadn't brought it up AGAIN there would be no Tulsa.

Wow! We are not talking about "them", but NW. Changing the focus of the debate is always a sign of lack of firm logical footing.

I'm glad our founders did not give up on the fight with the Brits just because they kept sending out more armies. They fought until the battle was won!! We are to endure hardness, as good soldiers, according to Paul.

I guess the bean patch is worth defending, but the UPC is worthy of abandonment? Great logic.

[TrmptPraise]

Well....you know how Pentecostals count heads right? 1,2,5,6,9.....

They also tend to count the same head twice....from a different angle

and with some of the consort hairstyles today, looking at them from a different angle does make them a totally different person. :)

[PastorD]

UUUUmmmmmmm If I remember right......It was voted AGAINST the year prior. Do we just keep bringing it back up every year?...

Perhaps if they hadn't brought it up AGAIN there would be no Tulsa.

UUUUmmmmmmm, you don't remember right. It was sent to a committee for study in 06.


:TulsaNO:

[connielori]

UUUUmmmmmmm, you don't remember right. It was sent to a committee for study in 06.


:TulsaNO:

AFTER it had been voted AGAINST at GC.....

[connielori]

"Simon Says copy me when i say ummmmmm" LOL

[NW Pastor]

So true. I, who would have voted against the resolution, did not vote to send it to committee. I wanted to defeat it right then. To say a "committee" vote was a vote against the resolution is not right. We can not get in the head of each preacher who voted (but boy would that be interesting)!

So, no, it was not voted against in Columbus.

[George]

AFTER it had been voted AGAINST at GC.....

NO. It was never brought to vote. California DS (at the time) asked to have it tabled and that is what happened. There was not a vote.

[PastorD]

"Simon Says copy me when i say ummmmmm" LOL

If your going to stomp around in your high heels saying, "UUUmmmmmm" at least know what your talking about.


:toofunny

[George]

You obiviously don't know DR. W_________. He certainly doesn't have to be at the head of ANYTHING to have 'power'. Dr. W____________ is success personified. Take a trip to CA, and visit his church. Get an education on the growth and revival his church has experienced from his leadership....in a very small amount of time. Read a couple of his books. This is a GREAT man. A powerful man of God.....who needs validation from NO ONE.

A man who convinced many to leave Michigan and follow him to California.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

NO. It was never brought to vote. California DS (at the time) asked to have it tabled and that is what happened. There was not a vote.

connielori, George is right on this matter.

Both sides were in much angst over this decision.

[PastorD]

A man who convinced many to leave Michigan and follow him to California.

....door opens and stage left enters Barb.


:aaa :bolt

[NW Pastor]

A man who convinced many to leave Michigan and follow him to California.

I wonder how many members of The Rock in the past or currently once belonged to other churches in the Sacramento area?

Probably a lot. After all, NW is a great pastor no question about it.

[KarenJo]

I wonder how many members of The Rock in the past or currently once belonged to other churches in the Sacramento area?

Probably a lot. After all, NW is a great pastor no question about it.


I am sure there is a good number from other churches. NW is a good man. Very progressive in his Music, Web Site, etc. That's why I was surprised that he was a part of this.

[NW Pastor]

I am sure there is a good number from other churches. NW is a good man. Very progressive in his Music, Web Site, etc. That's why I was surprised that he was a part of this.

If some Tulsa attendees actually knew how "progressive" folks are at the Rock, not just in music but in dress, hairstyle, and fashion, and internet video (TV like) production they may think twice about becoming a part.

Not that all of these things are particularly wrong in my opinion, but they are certain to ruffle the feathers of many conservative men seeking solace from the soon to be apostate UPC.

[George]

If some Tulsa attendees actually knew how "progressive" folks are at the Rock, not just in music but in dress, hairstyle, and fashion, and internet video (TV like) production they may think twice about becoming a part.

Not that all of these things are particularly wrong in my opinion, but they are certain to ruffle the feathers of many conservative men seeking solace from the soon to be apostate UPC.

I was told an out-of-state/town student dropped out of their school because they felt too much pressure to keep up with the fashion parade at every service.

[lad]

And he was not even at the Tampa conference to use his influence to defeat resolution 4. I wonder why? Perhaps if he had gone to Tampa, there would have been no Tulsa.

As I recall.... his wife's father had just passed away (he lived right next door to them) .... and she needed to have a time of grieving - with the loving support of her husband (NW) ... so he took her away for a few days break. Simply a matter of your family taking priority over a conference! Thank God!

[Dan]

You obiviously don't know DR. W_________. He certainly doesn't have to be at the head of ANYTHING to have 'power'. Dr. W____________ is success personified. Take a trip to CA, and visit his church. Get an education on the growth and revival his church has experienced from his leadership....in a very small amount of time. Read a couple of his books. This is a GREAT man. A powerful man of God.....who needs validation from NO ONE.

I have been UPC 54 years. I know enough and have seen enough to know what I am talking about. I have pastored people that Dr. W_______ pastored that can tell you some things first hand. Just seems to me that the spirit of the whole matter is WRONG!! Here is your cool aid. Drink it up now!

[Barb]

A man who convinced many to leave Michigan and follow him to California.

....door opens and stage left enters Barb.


:aaa :bolt

Here I am...LOL!!

Listen, George, you may think you know the facts here, but trust me...you do NOT!!

Here are the facts for the record:

Following the GC of 1979, Bro. NJ Wilson was asked by the powers that be over Harvest Time to become the main HT speaker.

Though Bro. Urshan had been the speaker and yet pastored, 'they' had made the decision that the new speaker not pastor as to devote his time to the broadcast and all that it involved.

Bro. W felt it was the will of God for he and his family at the time and resigned in October of that year...we (the members of South Flint Tabernacle) were devastated.

Bro. & Sis. W stayed in St. Louis about a year when he felt the call to Sacramento.

He did NOT convince anyone to move to CA...no not one!!

Several families did, but not by his urging.

Following his resignation from SFT, I was the first to leave, opting to align with the COOLJC for almost 24 years.

For me, as well as those who moved to CA and TX, the reasons we left were personal.

Those who moved bag and baggage to CA did so because they wanted to continue to sit under his ministry.

Though I disagree with him on many issues, the WPF being one of them, if he were here now, he would STILL be my pastor.

Some people just generate that kind of respect, and for the bystander, it is hard to understand, but I hope this will set your gift of suspicion to rest.

[IAintMovin]

I have been UPC 54 years. I know enough and have seen enough to know what I am talking about. I have pastored people that Dr. W_______ pastored that can tell you some things first hand. Just seems to me that the spirit of the whole matter is WRONG!! Here is your cool aid. Drink it up now!

Were you at the meeting........ I was.......and I can tell you that there may be some things wrong - (dont know of any) but the spirit was NOT one of them.......Great Spirit, Great men - God bless them all real good..........

[Dan]

Were you at the meeting........ I was.......and I can tell you that there may be some things wrong - (dont know of any) but the spirit was NOT one of them.......Great Spirit, Great men - God bless them all real good..........

Did not have to be at the meeting. I believe that the men that started the WPF are wrong. You will see when all the dust settles that it is not as it seems. The motive, the way they went about it all, and the dishonesty is very obvious. I could tell you some things I know first hand about some that are involved with the leadership roles of WPF (I am talking about things that have happened in the last 30 days), but I will refrain. You may have felt good there, but that does NOT mean it is right! We are obviously reliving the day of the time of the judges.....When every man did that which was right in his own eyes. It is very easy to declare you are taking the high road publicly and behind closed doors causing division. Maybe we need a good old baptism of "the decerning of spirits".

Just my thoughts.

[CC1]

Were you at the meeting........ I was.......and I can tell you that there may be some things wrong - (dont know of any) but the spirit was NOT one of them.......Great Spirit, Great men - God bless them all real good..........

Perhaps if we had fowarded them one of your vacation photos with you in one of those tropical short sleeve shirts your welcome would have been less effusive! LOL!!! (lucky for you I think those were posted back on the now defunct NFCF)

[Barb]

As it has been said time and again through these many threads, time will reveal all things.

We need to just watch and pray...

[IAintMovin]

Did not have to be at the meeting. I believe that the men that started the WPF are wrong. You will see when all the dust settles that it is not as it seems. The motive, the way they went about it all, and the dishonesty is very obvious. I could tell you some things I know first hand about some that are involved with the leadership roles of WPF (I am talking about things that have happened in the last 30 days), but I will refrain. You may have felt good there, but that does mean it is right! We are obviously reliving the day of the time of the judges.....When every man did that which was right in his own eyes. It is very easy to declare you are taking the high road publicly and behind closed doors causing division. Maybe we need a good old baptism of "the decerning of spirits.

Just my thoughts.

Yes and I know personally almost every man on the committee......have had the honor of many of them preaching for us........they have the right to step out and start a fellowship if they desire too........I am not joining and told them so........but since you were not there I will take with a grain of salt you knowing the spirit of the meeting and the hearts of those there.........that would be kinda like me reporting on the popes message somewere in the world today.......cant do it....wasnt there........

God bless.....

[IAintMovin]

Perhaps if we had fowarded them one of your vacation photos with you in one of those tropical short sleeve shirts your welcome would have been less effusive! LOL!!! (lucky for you I think those were posted back on the now defunct NFCF)

ewwwwwwww.......was that supposed to hurt........ewwwwwwwww.......so childish.........actually I will WEAR THEM WITH THEM RIGHT THERE and have before.........I thought about suggesting a 'grow up' a second ago on another of your post........now I am thinking of it even harder.........IAM is what IAM is........I do not do the duck and hide thing around my friends.......IAM what I am...........

[rgcraig]

ewwwwwwww.......was that supposed to hurt........ewwwwwwwww.......so childish.........actually I will WEAR THEM WITH THEM RIGHT THERE and have before.........I thought about suggesting a 'grow up' a second ago on another of your post........now I am thinking of it even harder.........IAM is what IAM is........I do not do the duck and hide thing around my friends.......IAM what I am...........

I think you missed CC1's sense of humor in his post.

[Dan]

Yes and I know personally almost every man on the committee......have had the honor of many of them preaching for us........they have the right to step out and start a fellowship if they desire too........I am not joining and told them so........but since you were not there I will take with a grain of salt you knowing the spirit of the meeting and the hearts of those there.........that would be kinda like me reporting on the popes message somewere in the world today.......cant do it....wasnt there........

God bless.....

I am not talking about just the two days in Tulsa....I am talking about the whole picture in general. I too know those in leadership and have for many years. Some have been my dear friends, but that does not make them right. I don't have to be at their meeting or hear any one of them preach to know that what they are doing is WRONG. I did not go because my General Superintendent asked us not to go. Cancelled my reservations. Are you UPC? just wondering.

If they want to start another organization.....they don't need to try to split the UPC to do it. I wonder how many would have showed up if they would not have used the UPC mailing list? I will leave it at that.

[IAintMovin]

I think you missed CC1's sense of humor in his post.


Oh no I caught it.............felt the tips of the knife too............:D :D :D

[IAintMovin]

I am not talking about just the two days in Tulsa....I am talking about the whole picture in general. I too know those in leadership and have for many years. Some have been my dear friends, but that does not make them right. I don't have to be at their meeting or hear any one of them preach to know that what they are doing is WRONG. I did not go because my General Superintendent asked us not to go. Cancelled my reservations. Are you UPC? just wondering.

If they want to start another organization.....they don't need to try to split the UPC to do it. I wonder how many would have showed up if they would not have used the UPC mailing list? I will leave it at that.
And ya know it.............still the best thing out there........that is why I am sticking.........

[Dan]

And ya know it.............still the best thing out there........that is why I am sticking.........

Glad to hear it. I aint moving either!

[Sacerdotal]

Sounds like some are upset they didn't get a position offered to them.

[rgcraig]

Sounds like some are upset they didn't get a position offered to them.

LOL....I doubt that.

[BroGibs]

Bro.Dan, I feel the same way!! And i know there are alot more out there that feel the same!!
God bless you!

[RevBuddy]

Now we have the WPF Apologists with us always...just like the poor...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[BroGibs]

God help us!

[pelathais]

Now we have the WPF Apologists with us always...just like the poor...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:
We are such a gullible bunch and we will always accept style over substance. We don't want to have to actually think about things. We just want to hear the "right" noises and see the "right" picture flash before our eyes and we're lulled back to sleep.

It's really no wonder that the Jesus Name Apostolic movement is dying out in North America. We do the same thing every time and get the same result and turn over and go back to sleep. The last thing we need to hear is that all of our infighting and competitive holiness has had a negative impact on ourselves.

"We're not using the UPCI minister's mailing list to start a new organization..." But before the invitations even go out there's already a huge bureaucracy in place.

"Oh well... we just didn't think we were starting a new org at the time we "borrowed" the list. We changed our minds later so we didn't really deceive anyone but ourselves. And we do that all the time anyhow, so it's not a bad thing!"

"We have a "great spirit! We had to lie to our brethren, violate the Manual and Articles of Faith that we swore we'd uphold, but no big deal. God's always gonna be with us... as long as we keep making the right noises and dress up in the right uniform. There's nothing wrong with us!"

And the movement continues to die a slow and painful death.

[CC1]

ewwwwwwww.......was that supposed to hurt........ewwwwwwwww.......so childish.........actually I will WEAR THEM WITH THEM RIGHT THERE and have before.........I thought about suggesting a 'grow up' a second ago on another of your post........now I am thinking of it even harder.........IAM is what IAM is........I do not do the duck and hide thing around my friends.......IAM what I am...........

My post was meant to be tongue in cheek. Dry sense of humor not some kind of childish vindictive thing. Good grief!

[BroGibs]

Brothers, we stand in UNITY or you cut your ties with the UPCI and go your own way!! we will never be successful as a group divided!!!!

[MikeinAR]

BroGibs brings up what seems to be the point of most pertinence to me. Where does this go from here? To just an outside observer like myself the signals from the Tulsa meeting are mixed and double minded at best. At the one hand, it seems the Tulsa-nites aren't really prepared to make the leap and disassociate themselves with the UPCI, but are inclined to offer local certifications to minister within the WPF.

Surely they don't intend to operate as the WPF, all the while trying to operate within the UPCI as well. Rational men would agree there's no need for the WPF if they intend on remaining in the UPCI.

[Nahum]

Does anyone on this forum believe for one minute that there will not be a new, totally separate organization which will arise from the WPF "fellowship"? All of this blather over who said what when gets a little tiresome. There will be a separation. Period.

PP and NW Pastor...

You both are EXACTLY CORRECT...no question.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

This is why the righteous indignation of the Tulsa defenders on this forum rings so hollow. They all know there will be a real and painful splintering of organizational bonds, regardless of all public declarations or lack thereof by the Tulsa founders.

The organizers are playing a careful game. They believe that they stand to gain a lot so they're careful with their words. Also, nothing exists in spoken words the way it appears on paper.

For example, no one's name was used without their permission. Period. That was checked and rechecked and no one was found to have slipped through. Yet when KH's letter is brought up where he describes people who said that their names were used without permission - does a contradiction exist? No! It's just a matter of timing and a misunderstanding. KH is "correct," but at the same time "mistaken."

Also, when the claims that "no organization was being formed" were being thrown around after Tampa, angry words were said to the skeptics. When the Bible quizzing site was put up, those angry words ceased and a wait-and-see attitude developed. Then when a full blown bureaucracy was revealed we were told that this was the plan all along. You were mistaken to have said, "No new organization was being formed."

The WPF web site was "hacked" when links to publically accessible pages were posted here. Apparently Google was involved in the "hacking" because the webmasters were careful to have submitted their brand new pages to the search engine for public indexing. Since when is submitting your own public web pages to Google so that anyone in the world can find them called "privacy?" But that's what the Tulsa organizers want us to believe.

Questions arose about the ethics of the recruiting methods. The UPCI mailing list was and then wasn't, and then was obtained for purposes of recruitment. Somehow WEC either waived all their standard procedures for the use of this list or ethics don't really apply when WEC is the "backslidden" party.

Using the UPC to split itself is "okay" because "no new organization was being formed." But then when the organization is formed, the participants all boast about the fine spirit in which this was done.

And we are called upon to applaud this work? Okay. I applaud. If they can keep it up for another year I will stand and applaud. But I would hope that they would blush before then.


Thanks guys. I was starting to feel sort of lonely out here.

Look, I have been around NFCF, and now AFF, for about 18 months now. The same posters who are defending this Tulsa stuff are the ones who have consistently said that AS signers who lie are sinful, deceitful and worse.

I agreed with them then. I still agree that deception is wrong, whether it comes from Tulsa, or by signing an agreement you don't believe in.

[Nahum]

The organizers are playing a careful game. They believe that they stand to gain a lot so they're careful with their words. Also, nothing exists in spoken words the way it appears on paper.

For example, no one's name was used without their permission. Period. That was checked and rechecked and no one was found to have slipped through. Yet when KH's letter is brought up where he describes people who said that their names were used without permission - does a contradiction exist? No! It's just a matter of timing and a misunderstanding. KH is "correct," but at the same time "mistaken."

Also, when the claims that "no organization was being formed" were being thrown around after Tampa, angry words were said to the skeptics. When the Bible quizzing site was put up, those angry words ceased and a wait-and-see attitude developed. Then when a full blown bureaucracy was revealed we were told that this was the plan all along. You were mistaken to have said, "No new organization was being formed."

The WPF web site was "hacked" when links to publically accessible pages were posted here. Apparently Google was involved in the "hacking" because the webmasters were careful to have submitted their brand new pages to the search engine for public indexing. Since when is submitting your own public web pages to Google so that anyone in the world can find them called "privacy?" But that's what the Tulsa organizers want us to believe.

Questions arose about the ethics of the recruiting methods. The UPCI mailing list was and then wasn't, and then was obtained for purposes of recruitment. Somehow WEC either waived all their standard procedures for the use of this list or ethics don't really apply when WEC is the "backslidden" party.

Using the UPC to split itself is "okay" because "no new organization was being formed." But then when the organization is formed, the participants all boast about the fine spirit in which this was done.

And we are called upon to applaud this work? Okay. I applaud. If they can keep it up for another year I will stand and applaud. But I would hope that they would blush before then.

This is the best post I have seen since Tampa.

It accurately synopsizes events leading up to, during and immediately after the passing of resolution four.

[Sister Alvear]

Since I belong to neither and have friends in both I pray for all involved.

[George]

Here I am...LOL!!

Listen, George, you may think you know the facts here, but trust me...you do NOT!!

Here are the facts for the record:

Following the GC of 1979, Bro. NJ Wilson was asked by the powers that be over Harvest Time to become the main HT speaker.

Though Bro. Urshan had been the speaker and yet pastored, 'they' had made the decision that the new speaker not pastor as to devote his time to the broadcast and all that it involved.

Bro. W felt it was the will of God for he and his family at the time and resigned in October of that year...we (the members of South Flint Tabernacle) were devastated.

Bro. & Sis. W stayed in St. Louis about a year when he felt the call to Sacramento.

He did NOT convince anyone to move to CA...no not one!!

Several families did, but not by his urging.

Following his resignation from SFT, I was the first to leave, opting to align with the COOLJC for almost 24 years.

For me, as well as those who moved to CA and TX, the reasons we left were personal.

Those who moved bag and baggage to CA did so because they wanted to continue to sit under his ministry.

Though I disagree with him on many issues, the WPF being one of them, if he were here now, he would STILL be my pastor.

Some people just generate that kind of respect, and for the bystander, it is hard to understand, but I hope this will set your gift of suspicion to rest.

Just as it has taken all this time to get to Tulsa from Houston to organize the WPF, it took time for people to sell and relocate. NW is a very smart man. He knew what he was doing. Saving enough time to get everything in place for starting a church in California. Obviously he influenced those people to leave Michigan and follow.

[NW Pastor]

This is the best post I have seen since Tampa.

It accurately synopsizes events leading up to, during and immediately after the passing of resolution four.

I agree. The wordsmiths and propoganda machine has been quite busy.

Take a lesson from history. Hitler did not want to conquer the world. He had nothing against the Czechs, Poles, French or anyone else. He just wanted some "living space" where the great German people, the Master Race, could take their rightful place of divine appointment and bless the world with little blond haired blue eyed supermen.

In fact, he was so good at it that British PM Chamberlain came back from Tulsa... oops I mean Munich proclaiming we have "peace in our time". What a great meeting that was, by all accounts (except of course the Czechs)! The Germans and the rest of Europe could live side by side peacfully. WW II promptly erupted and destroyed much of Europe.

I would never equate these men with Hitler. My point is to say, watch what is done, study the backtrail, and ignore the propaganda.

[Barb]

Just as it has taken all this time to get to Tulsa from Houston to organize the WPF, it took time for people to sell and relocate. NW is a very smart man. He knew what he was doing. Saving enough time to get everything in place for starting a church in California. Obviously he influenced those people to leave Michigan and follow.

And you were there, sir?!

How many of those people do you PERSONALLY know?!

How many have you broken bread with?!

Trust me that I know whereof I speak...it didn't happen.

[CC1]

BroGibs brings up what seems to be the point of most pertinence to me. Where does this go from here? To just an outside observer like myself the signals from the Tulsa meeting are mixed and double minded at best. At the one hand, it seems the Tulsa-nites aren't really prepared to make the leap and disassociate themselves with the UPCI, but are inclined to offer local certifications to minister within the WPF.

Surely they don't intend to operate as the WPF, all the while trying to operate within the UPCI as well. Rational men would agree there's no need for the WPF if they intend on remaining in the UPCI.


I think the organizers and a significant number of those attending the first Tulsa meeting are not only prepared but are eager to make the leap to disassociate themselves from the UPC.

These are folks who by the very nature of their conservative beliefs have a "holier than thou" perspective. Their disdain for what they perceive as "liberalness" in the UPC has been growing for years.

They discovered they did not have the number of votes to gain power to stop all the things that bother them like the use of video, lighting, smoke, music that is not Southern Gospel, etc.

Their only alternative was to do their own thing and that they have done. I am sure many from pure motives and some from deep seated resentment over having come close but never having attained position and power in the UPC.

[NW Pastor]

I think the organizers and a significant number of those attending the first Tulsa meeting are not only prepared but are eager to make the leap to disassociate themselves from the UPC.

These are folks who by the very nature of their conservative beliefs have a "holier than thou" perspective. Their disdain for what they perceive as "liberalness in the UPC has been growing for years.

They discovered they did not have the number of votes to gain power to stop all the things that bother them like the use of video, lighting, smoke, music that is not Southern Gospel, etc.

Their only alternative was to do their own thing and that they have done. I am sure many from pure motives and some from deep seated resentment over having come close but never having attained position and power in the UPC.


There are deep differences that exist in some of the above mentioned areas. These are some potential future battlegrounds for the newly formed WPF. You might be suprised by how "liberal" some are in these areas. They might make some "liberals" in other areas scream "comprimise"!

[Parkbench]

Come summer time, realization that much of the Tusla sound was of brass and tinkling cymbals; will create a longing in the hearts of some who went there to return to a good old UPC Camp meeting.

Many a church will then find their old pastor showing forth a more repentant, understanding, humble and compasssionate heart............after he sees the error of Tulsa.

[CC1]

Come summer time, realization that much of the Tusla sound was of brass and tinkling cymbals; will create a longing in the hearts of some who went there to return to a good old UPC Camp meeting.

Many a church will then find their old pastor showing forth a more repentant, understanding, humble and compasssionate heart............after he sees the error of Tulsa.

I thought you were UPC and that the UPC didn't allow members to smoke dope!:toofunny

(On as serious note you are at best delusional or totally out of touch with the UPC if you don't think these guys are dead serious and this has not been in the works for years. There may be a handful who do as you say but most will not)

[NW Pastor]

Come summer time, realization that much of the Tusla sound was of brass and tinkling cymbals; will create a longing in the hearts of some who went there to return to a good old UPC Camp meeting.

Many a church will then find their old pastor showing forth a more repentant, understanding, humble and compasssionate heart............after he sees the error of Tulsa.


However unlikely, some may see the error of rushing to such a monmuental decision, but men who place so much stock in being "right" are not about to admit they were wrong. Don't expect them to come back.

The die is cast, and even if they do return, they will find that they have suffered a considerable loss of influence among the UPCI bethren. Who will follow them. I certainly will not!

Knowing it will never be as before, expect them to remain out.

[BroGibs]

There are those who will say they are unhappy with the UPCI. But truth be told they will never be happy, with UPC, WAF or any other group!!

[NW Pastor]

There are a lot of lone wolves out there.

I have always found it interesting that those that demand such blind devotion and submission from saints have such a difficult time submitting to any authority other than their own. Or to their wife!

[BroGibs]

So true! all about power!

[BroGibs]

There are a lot of lone wolves out there.

I have always found it interesting that those that demand such blind devotion and submission from saints have such a difficult time submitting to any authority other than their own. Or to their wife!


NW, they have a lot of Insecurities! they need that control!!!

[connielori]

Here I am...LOL!!

Listen, George, you may think you know the facts here, but trust me...you do NOT!!

Here are the facts for the record:

Following the GC of 1979, Bro. NJ Wilson was asked by the powers that be over Harvest Time to become the main HT speaker.

Though Bro. Urshan had been the speaker and yet pastored, 'they' had made the decision that the new speaker not pastor as to devote his time to the broadcast and all that it involved.

Bro. W felt it was the will of God for he and his family at the time and resigned in October of that year...we (the members of South Flint Tabernacle) were devastated.

Bro. & Sis. W stayed in St. Louis about a year when he felt the call to Sacramento.

He did NOT convince anyone to move to CA...no not one!!

Several families did, but not by his urging.

Following his resignation from SFT, I was the first to leave, opting to align with the COOLJC for almost 24 years.

For me, as well as those who moved to CA and TX, the reasons we left were personal.

Those who moved bag and baggage to CA did so because they wanted to continue to sit under his ministry.

Though I disagree with him on many issues, the WPF being one of them, if he were here now, he would STILL be my pastor.

Some people just generate that kind of respect, and for the bystander, it is hard to understand, but I hope this will set your gift of suspicion to rest.

[B]Pastor D and George[,

You would do well to know your facts.....
I am married to one of the ones who moved from Mi to Ca. You are SOOOOO mistaken. Bro. Wilson NEVER has EVER asked, hinted, or 'seduced' anyone to leave MI and follow him to CA.
I sense a whole lot of jealousy, envy, or some kind of bitterness....when people can so freely spew untruths around.
Thank you Barb for telling it like it REALLY IS.
It's so sad to me that these kind of TOTAL LIES can be spread everywhere.

[The Dean]

Just as it has taken all this time to get to Tulsa from Houston to organize the WPF, it took time for people to sell and relocate. NW is a very smart man. He knew what he was doing. Saving enough time to get everything in place for starting a church in California. Obviously he influenced those people to leave Michigan and follow.

And you were there, sir?!

How many of those people do you PERSONALLY know?!

How many have you broken bread with?!

Trust me that I know whereof I speak...it didn't happen.

I find it unfortunate that so many accusations are being made against N. Wilson when some of those who were DIRECTLY INVOLVED are here refuting their unfounded suppositions.

Amazingly, it hasn't seemed to stop them.

[NW Pastor]

NW, they have a lot of Insecurities! they need that control!!!

Even the apostle Paul, who was instructed by Jesus in the desert and had fabulous revelations about the Gentile Revival, submitted himself to Elders in Jerusalem. It would have been very easy for such a gifted and charismatic theologean, who had grave differances of opinion over "holiness" issues with Peter, to have taken "his" gentile churches and formed his own "fellowship".

He did not. He allowed his revelations and theologies to be tested and modified by the leadership body of elders. Thus the church remained unified and grew, even in the onslaught of grave political and religious persecution.

I wonder which elders the Tulsa group submits to? Perhaps you reach an age where you become your own elder. Wow!

[NW Pastor]

I find it unfortunate that so many accusations are being made against N. Wilson when some of those who were DIRECTLY INVOLVED are here refuting their unfounded suppositions.

Amazingly, it hasn't seemed to stop them.

How true. In the words of Joe Friday, "Just the facts, maam." Inuendo usage destroys credibility.

[George]

And you were there, sir?!

How many of those people do you PERSONALLY know?!

How many have you broken bread with?!

Trust me that I know whereof I speak...it didn't happen.

You seem to be in attack mode so this will be my last comment to you. Maybe you weren't solicited by NW. As for breaking bread, I am comfortable enough to open their refrigerator and get a drink. You, my dear, are not the sole authority on this subject.

[The Dean]

Even the apostle Paul, who was instructed by Jesus in the desert and had fabulous revelations about the Gentile Revival, submitted himself to Elders in Jerusalem. It would have been very easy for such a gifted and charismatic theologean, who had grave differances of opinion over "holiness" issues with Peter, to have taken "his" gentile churches and formed his own "fellowship".

He did not. He allowed his revelations and theologies to be tested and modified by the leadership body of elders. Thus the church remained unified and grew, even in the onslaught of grave political and religious persecution.

I wonder which elders the Tulsa group submits to? Perhaps you reach an age where you become your own elder. Wow!

To answer your question, EVERYONE that signs up as a member of their fellowship are required to have THREE names of ministers to whom they are accountable and answer to on their application - one being their Pastor - and that includes the original 6.

Wasn't that easy?

[NW Pastor]

To answer your question, EVERYONE that signs up as a member of their fellowship are required to have THREE names of ministers to whom they are accountable and answer to on their application - one being their Pastor - and that includes the original 6.

Wasn't that easy?

Real easy to say, but not so easy to do. There are plenty of folks who call me pastor, and probably you too, who suffer from selective submission. They submit as long as they agree.

Names on a page are a good start though.

[StMark]

Oh Lawd!! There is some very interesting discussion going on here!

Let me grab something to eat and then get back and catch up with this :happydance

[connielori]

If your going to stomp around in your high heels saying, "UUUmmmmmm" at least know what your talking about.


:toofunny

...."Pastor" ? ....very sad.

[Aquila]

I know of a pastor in Huber Heights OH who openly denied over the pulpit that he knew anything about his name being on the leadership list for the WWPF. Booker assured everyone in Tulsa that each man on the list was consulted and placed on the list with their full permission. Why have so many been so dishonest about their involvement in this new fellowship? You can't launch a church fellowship based on dishonesty.

[Steadfast]

Real easy to say, but not so easy to do. There are plenty of folks who call me pastor, and probably you too, who suffer from selective submission. They submit as long as they agree.

Names on a page are a good start though.

I can't figure out the reasoning in some posts... or some mindsets for that matter. It wouldn't matter what was said or how many angel's wings brushed by that morsel of truth on it's way to inhabit the atmosphere of Earth around us... some are a Master of disputing things that can't be proven.

So far we've learned that...

It can't be a genuine conviction because it's all about 'control'. Doesn't matter that some men really DO have convictions that they live by.
It can't be true that they actually submit to someone. Even if they say they do, well, they probably don't in real life.
It can't really be a move of God there in Tulsa. It has to be the hype of preaching standards that has them worked up into a frenzy.

You know, folks, these men are doing what you folks say can't be done. They are building sucessful Churches along the way. They evidently are doing something right as I've been to most of their Churches and they have Apostolic Church with a real move of God.

I just find it hard to imagine that they are being slaughtered on forums when any legitimate reasoning would tell us that these men all have 'corn in the crib'. It reminds me of a few years ago when the hurricane destroyed our Church and damaged so many homes in our city. Before we left there was a certain faction of people who kept claiming, "There ain't NO hurricane gonna reach us all the way up here!".

But it succeeded in spite of what men claimed.

No, I may not have been in Tulsa but I - and most everyone else I care enough to be around - agree with their right to do what they feel is right. And to judge the motives, claim to know more about their personal convictions then they, themselves, and to claim some discernment over the depth of their submission to a Pastor or spiritual authority... is arrogance of the highest order.

In this, Brethren, we do not well.

[Sunni]

Errr...my sunny side has dissolved...

I accept that many of you have dissenting opinions about Tulsa... I even enjoy reading the viewpoints sometimes of the intelligent or common sense posters for either side...In addition, I highly respect ministers who send their cards to Hazelwood and now also those who mail to Tulsa...

However, those who claim to know the hearts of the Tulsa organizers are wrong- you do not. Many of us, however, know some or all of the Tulsa 6... (However on a different scale than those who claim to be their friends and then proceed to demolish their characters- Or those who do not judge, but think they can speak for them because they preached for them, or they spoke with them one time, or et. etc. etc. etc.)

Many of the Tulsa six are beloved Men of God...for a reason. Some of us, including me, have often sat with them, laughed with them, and even been pastored by them... To some of you, that apparently makes me a spiritual sissie under the leadership of a legalistic dictator... anyway....

I can say this about one of them in particular- he loves souls more than anyone I have ever known...I am a Bible College grad, and have been under many ministers, but he has taught me more than anyone about sacrifice and love for the lost. He has mentored my husband as he first ventured into ministry, and he built a church in a city without truth...he is not the only one. You do not know all their sacrifices...you do not know their relationship with God, you do not know their motives, and you certainly do not know their hearts!

There are saints that read these words (the Tulsa 6 have seen many souls saved under their ministries- do you doubt that?) and hurt to see the motives of men questioned so acidly. These are men who heard the cry of a city and answered; who sacrificed and gave years of their lives in storefront churches, working alternate jobs, raising families where they knew so few, and living for the weekend when maybe the waitress they invited and then laid beside their bed and prayed for that night would show up and fill an empty chair... You did not see the tears in their eyes as she prayed through to the Holy Ghost, and you did not hear the sobbing of intercessory pastor when he saw souls slide...

Some of these men are pastoring very obviously successful churches- how sad that you think that can be done by men who 'only desire power and prestige.' Power trips and prestige parties do not build churches...Can I get a true church planter to say "Amen"!? .... You may wonder at the reason they felt the need to step out, and you may even disagree- that is life- but apply some logic... A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!

I know some of the men...They have EARNED my respect by their love for souls... A love that I have witnessed repeatedly first hand...I know them, but not their hearts- only God does... I do, however, know that I trust their hearts in this matter... You may not know them enough to trust their judgement- I understand that.

Just remember- some of the six are or have been pastors...with pastors' hearts...Organizations of WPF or UPC does not change the fact that they go home and sit at the sides of grieving families, they visit the sick, they pray for their sheep, they reach out even when they are weary, they keep pushing on for that next soul... THEY PASTOR...and when a man does that right, he earns the love of his saints and those he mentors... I do know personally, that some of these men are doing that right, witnessed by the love of their true friends and saints...

That speaks louder to me than any of you who 'claim' to know their hearts...

[The Dean]

Real easy to say, but not so easy to do. There are plenty of folks who call me pastor, and probably you too, who suffer from selective submission. They submit as long as they agree.

Names on a page are a good start though.

That's a problem that every one of us who Pastor have to deal with. However, while a problem for sure, can you honestly say that genuine submission can't be attained?

Why do we perceive the worst in men who do things different than us?

[PastorD]

Pastor D and George,

You would do well to know your facts.....
I am married to one of the ones who moved from Mi to Ca. You are SOOOOO mistaken. Bro. Wilson NEVER has EVER asked, hinted, or 'seduced' anyone to leave MI and follow him to CA.
I sense a whole lot of jealousy, envy, or some kind of bitterness....when people can so freely spew untruths around.
Thank you Barb for telling it like it REALLY IS.
It's so sad to me that these kind of TOTAL LIES can be spread everywhere.

You might go back and read. PastorD said nothing about anyone moving from here to there. I just welcomed Barb from stage left as I knew she would be here to defend the history she lived.

It is a forum folks . . . 'reading' is the key to its success.

[StMark]

You might go back and read. PastorD said nothing about anyone moving from here to there. I just welcomed Barb from stage left as I knew she would be here to defend the history she lived.

It is a forum folks . . . 'reading' is the key to its success.

You seem a little irritable tonight

[PastorD]

You seem a little irritable tonigth

Not at all. I say enough on here that gets me in trouble without someone that can't read misquoting.

:tantrum

[StMark]

Not at all. I say enough on here that gets me in trouble without someone that can't read misquoting.

:tantrum

take 2 asprins and put a cold compress on your head

[Barb]

You seem to be in attack mode so this will be my last comment to you. Maybe you weren't solicited by NW. As for breaking bread, I am comfortable enough to open their refrigerator and get a drink. You, my dear, are not the sole authority on this subject.

LOL!! I am NOT on the attack mode...not as some who have no problems attacking an elder.

I am not trying to be an authority on anything...just stating facts as they were.

Think what you like, sir...did it ever occur to you that YOU were misinformed?! LOL!!

[George]

I am understanding why Dora said - drink the kool aid.
You can never have an objective conversation with some people.

[George]

take 2 asprins and put a cold compress on your head

Dr.Mark - do you have anything stronger than aspirin?

[Barb]

I'm busy getting ready for work, but one more thing, George...

If I come across as being harsh, I sincerely apologize, but Bishop is very dear to me. He and Sis. W loved me when I was most unlovable and invested much into my life.

I am trying to think of all of the families which moved to CA from here, and am not aware of one that he "convinced" to move.

The Bertrams, Popes, Burnetts, Joneses, Newtons, Ternaskys, Fitzspatricks...who am I leaving out who would have told you such a thing?!

[Maple Leaf]

Errr...my sunny side has dissolved...

I accept that many of you have dissenting opinions about Tulsa... I even enjoy reading the viewpoints sometimes of the intelligent or common sense posters for either side...In addition, I highly respect ministers who send their cards to Hazelwood and now also those who mail to Tulsa...

However, those who claim to know the hearts of the Tulsa organizers are wrong- you do not. Many of us, however, know some or all of the Tulsa 6... (However on a different scale than those who claim to be their friends and then proceed to demolish their characters- Or those who do not judge, but think they can speak for them because they preached for them, or they spoke with them one time, or et. etc. etc. etc.)

Many of the Tulsa six are beloved Men of God...for a reason. Some of us, including me, have often sat with them, laughed with them, and even been pastored by them... To some of you, that apparently makes me a spiritual sissie under the leadership of a legalistic dictator... anyway....

I can say this about one of them in particular- he loves souls more than anyone I have ever known...I am a Bible College grad, and have been under many ministers, but he has taught me more than anyone about sacrifice and love for the lost. He has mentored my husband as he first ventured into ministry, and he built a church in a city without truth...he is not the only one. You do not know all their sacrifices...you do not know their relationship with God, you do not know their motives, and you certainly do not know their hearts!

There are saints that read these words (the Tulsa 6 have seen many souls saved under their ministries- do you doubt that?) and hurt to see the motives of men questioned so acidly. These are men who heard the cry of a city and answered; who sacrificed and gave years of their lives in storefront churches, working alternate jobs, raising families where they knew so few, and living for the weekend when maybe the waitress they invited and then laid beside their bed and prayed for that night would show up and fill an empty chair... You did not see the tears in their eyes as she prayed through to the Holy Ghost, and you did not hear the sobbing of intercessory pastor when he saw souls slide...

Some of these men are pastoring very obviously successful churches- how sad that you think that can be done by men who 'only desire power and prestige.' Power trips and prestige parties do not build churches...Can I get a true church planter to say "Amen"!? .... You may wonder at the reason they felt the need to step out, and you may even disagree- that is life- but apply some logic... A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!

I know some of the men...They have EARNED my respect by their love for souls... A love that I have witnessed repeatedly first hand...I know them, but not their hearts- only God does... I do, however, know that I trust their hearts in this matter... You may not know them enough to trust their judgement- I understand that.

Just remember- some of the six are or have been pastors...with pastors' hearts...Organizations of WPF or UPC does not change the fact that they go home and sit at the sides of grieving families, they visit the sick, they pray for their sheep, they reach out even when they are weary, they keep pushing on for that next soul... THEY PASTOR...and when a man does that right, he earns the love of his saints and those he mentors... I do know personally, that some of these men are doing that right, witnessed by the love of their true friends and saints...

That speaks louder to me than any of you who 'claim' to know their hearts...

I liked this post so much that I read it twice, and I usually only skim long posts. Sunni has made an eloquent plea for a more careful handling of men's names and reputations and I agree with her. Some of the criticisms of the men involved in the Tulsa movement have crossed the line of Scripturally acceptable conversation. We may judge actions, but only God may judge the heart.

[Fireside]

I liked this post so much that I read it twice, and I usually only skim long posts. Sunni has made an eloquent plea for a more careful handling of men's names and reputations and I agree with her. Some of the criticisms of the men involved in the Tulsa movement have crossed the line of Scripturally acceptable conversation. We may judge actions, but only God may judge the heart.

Maple Leaf said what I was going to say.

This statement seemed especially poignant:

"A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!"

If there was half as much real discernment in our movement in real life as there is virtual discernment on the internet, the devil would have a bad day.

[Pressing-On]

Maple Leaf said what I was going to say.

This statement seemed especially poignant:

"A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!"

If there was half as much real discernment in our movement in real life as there is virtual discernment on the internet, the devil would have a bad day.

Great signature line, CS. :toofunny

[Fireside]

Great signature line, CS. :toofunny

You are welcome to it if you want it. :)

[Pressing-On]

You are welcome to it if you want it. :)

No, then you'd have to by my nephew. :toofunny

[RevBuddy]

Sunni...your thoughts are well stated; however, you still don't address the clear ethical questions that have been raised. "Beloved Men of God" can, and do, make mistakes in judgment. These have, IMHO.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[RevBuddy]

By the way, I spoke with a Tulsa attendee last night at church. The reported attendance of ministers (pastors, ministers, etc.) was 955. The rest was reported to be "wives and children." The important fact missing was - what organizations are these ministers affiliated with?

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[Felicity]

By the way, I spoke with a Tulsa attendee last night at church. The reported attendance of ministers (pastors, ministers, etc.) was 955. The rest was reported to be "wives and children." The important fact missing was - what organizations are these ministers affiliated with?
That was my question in a post a couple days ago. I would take for granted though that the majority were UPC.

[Fireside]

No, then you'd have to by my nephew. :toofunny


I may have to start calling you Aunt Pressy. Or maybe Aunty P.

[Pressing-On]

I may have to start calling you Aunt Pressy. Or maybe Aunty P.

Forget it, buddy! :toofunny

[Fireside]

By the way, I spoke with a Tulsa attendee last night at church. The reported attendance of ministers (pastors, ministers, etc.) was 955. The rest was reported to be "wives and children." The important fact missing was - what organizations are these ministers affiliated with?

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

The vast majority were UPC preachers, according to the accounts of some who were there.

A few GIB's, but not too many.

[Fireside]

Forget it, buddy! :toofunny

What's wrong?

I think you are probably in the proper age bracket...and I have always treated my aunties well.
:)

[Steve Epley]

I can't figure out the reasoning in some posts... or some mindsets for that matter. It wouldn't matter what was said or how many angel's wings brushed by that morsel of truth on it's way to inhabit the atmosphere of Earth around us... some are a Master of disputing things that can't be proven.

So far we've learned that...

It can't be a genuine conviction because it's all about 'control'. Doesn't matter that some men really DO have convictions that they live by.
It can't be true that they actually submit to someone. Even if they say they do, well, they probably don't in real life.
It can't really be a move of God there in Tulsa. It has to be the hype of preaching standards that has them worked up into a frenzy.

You know, folks, these men are doing what you folks say can't be done. They are building sucessful Churches along the way. They evidently are doing something right as I've been to most of their Churches and they have Apostolic Church with a real move of God.

I just find it hard to imagine that they are being slaughtered on forums when any legitimate reasoning would tell us that these men all have 'corn in the crib'. It reminds me of a few years ago when the hurricane destroyed our Church and damaged so many homes in our city. Before we left there was a certain faction of people who kept claiming, "There ain't NO hurricane gonna reach us all the way up here!".

But it succeeded in spite of what men claimed.

No, I may not have been in Tulsa but I - and most everyone else I care enough to be around - agree with their right to do what they feel is right. And to judge the motives, claim to know more about their personal convictions then they, themselves, and to claim some discernment over the depth of their submission to a Pastor or spiritual authority... is arrogance of the highest order.

In this, Brethren, we do not well.

Elder thank you. I did not go to Tulsa and have no intention of joining. But these men as great expense and cost to themselves have made this step. Only time will tell the outcome. I wish them well as I do the godly men in the UPC.

[Pressing-On]

The vast majority were UPC preachers, according to the accounts of some who were there.

A few GIB's, but not too many.

I will get the full report when our older son calls us this evening. His Board sent him to check it out. One thing I won't do is report what he says about it here. :D

[Steve Epley]

I liked this post so much that I read it twice, and I usually only skim long posts. Sunni has made an eloquent plea for a more careful handling of men's names and reputations and I agree with her. Some of the criticisms of the men involved in the Tulsa movement have crossed the line of Scripturally acceptable conversation. We may judge actions, but only God may judge the heart.

Good words.

[Pressing-On]

What's wrong?

I think you are probably in the proper age bracket...and I have always treated my aunties well.
:)
You're pushing it, at the expense of your life, buddy! :girlytantrum

[Fireside]

Elder thank you. I did not go to Tulsa and have no intention of joining. But these men as great expense and cost to themselves have made this step. Only time will tell the outcome. I wish them well as I do the godly men in the UPC.


Why, O why, can't this be the prevailing spirit and attitude among us?

[Steve Epley]

My GIB friends who were there did not know most of the men so evidently they were UPC.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I will get the full report when our older son calls us this evening. His Board sent him to check it out. One thing I won't do is report what he says about it here. :D

Church or District?!?

[Cindy]

You're pushing it, at the expense of your life, buddy! :girlytantrum

Gonna sic Uncle Louie on him huh? :runhills:thwak:club:smack:drawguns

[Pressing-On]

Church or District?!?

His church.

[Pressing-On]

Gonna sic Uncle Louie on him huh?

Uncle Louie comes in very handy, at times - when he's not in prison. :toofunny

[Mr. Steinway]

My suggestion to current UPCI preachers, is to leave the preachers who want to join the Tulsa group alone! After all, if you're not careful, they might return! :D

I believe the UPCI will be better focused without the past distractions and division. The Tulsa group will be better off feeling empowered!

[CC1]

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men of ethics, honor, integrity, and right motive.

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men lacking in ethics, honor, integrity and right motive.

The only thing that I thought gave the entire org. a bad name was the active prosletyzing that by many accounts was going on. That was disappointing.

I also think they were less than genuine about their plans when they kept insisting they had no plans regarding organizing when it is quite clear something of this detail and complexity had been in the planning for a long time.

[Discerner]

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men of ethics, honor, integrity, and right motive.

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men lacking in ethics, honor, integrity and right motive.

The only thing that I thought gave the entire org. a bad name was the active prosletyzing that by many accounts was going on. That was disappointing.

I also think they were less than genuine about their plans when they kept insisting they had no plans regarding organizing when it is quite clear something of this detail and complexity had been in the planning for a long time.

How about Disingenuous.

[BroGibs]

Real easy to say, but not so easy to do. There are plenty of folks who call me pastor, and probably you too, who suffer from selective submission. They submit as long as they agree.

Names on a page are a good start though.


You are so right Bro. NW,I'v seen it over the years as a pastor, there are those, they have selective submission and when it gets to be to much for them they do what we are seeing now! Some will leave, the right thing to do (I respect them for that). But some will stay with no intenions of submitting.

They may call you pastor but you are not, your there preacher!!! and that's all!!!

[RevBuddy]

Elder thank you. I did not go to Tulsa and have no intention of joining. But these men as great expense and cost to themselves have made this step. Only time will tell the outcome. I wish them well as I do the godly men in the UPC.


Elder:

I have absolutely said this is a control movement. And I will stick by that. However, at no time, have I commented on the presence of God or the lack thereof. Those who do are foolish...

If you must leave an organization, by all means, leave. Each and every one of us have that right to do so. My comments have addressed only the questionable ethics about the "ways and means" that these brethren have left. Remaining IN an organization while taking premediated action to bring about its hurt, using UPCI data while not obtaining the necessary approvals, fees, etc. and lastly, actively recruiting its membership by letter, personally or by surrogates.

Secondly, when this same resolution (essentially the same, I should say) was defeated at an earlier GC, would we expect and/or endorse similar action should it have been taken by UPCI ministers with the opposing view?

I would oppose on ethical grounds any similar actions, either from the left or the right of our organization. An organization founded on questionable personal or corporate behavior has for itself, an inauspicious start.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[CC1]

How about Disingenuous.

That there is one of them there words used by the ed-ju-ma-cated.

[Felicity]

Well, the fact is ..... nothing can be done about what has been initiated. It has begun, it's a work in progress and time will tell what kind of work it will be.

Live and let live. :)

I just pray these men will continue to love one another and continue to fellowship one another, because it seems to me that the differences aren't so great that they should or need to prevent that. God often directs men to do things and take certain steps and go in directions that others looking on shake their head at.

I guess the best thing is to leave it to God to sort out all the motives and actions people take and the whys of what they do and the decisions they make and the directions they take. He'll reward and bless according to His good pleasure and according to righteous unclouded perfect judgment.

Nobody can say that they've never acted out of less than the best of motives. Nobody can confess to perfection in any area of their lives. So finger pointing and judging needs to be done carefully, particularly when it involves the work of God and men and women who have been called of God and set apart for His purpose.

The most important thing is that the Gospel continues to be preached and that lost souls are saved. That's the primary mission of the Church. We need to be reminded of that occasionally.

From the cheap seats ...... :)

[TrmptPraise]

The only real important question is when will the Countdown to Branson thread start? :stirpot

[StMark]

Back on FCF about 2-3 years ago, I told everyone that there was a new organization secretly being discussed & planned.I was laughed to scorn because I didn't have"proof".I don't expect any apologizes from the naysayers who tried everything to make me look like a fool. Does anyone ever admit they were wrong in relation to anything that has to do with this topic?? That's almost a whole nother topic.

Know this, write it down this day that I told you. One day there is going to be something come out that is going to blow everyone away totally out of the water.Unfortunatley a lot of devestated lives. I am right about this you will see.







.

[Felicity]

Back on FCF about 2-3 years ago, I told everyone that there was a new organization secretly being discussed & planned.I was laughed to scorn because I didn't have"proof".I don't expect any apologizes from the naysayers who tried everything to make me look like a fool. Does anyone ever admit they were wrong in relation to anything that has to do with this topic?? That's almost a whole nother topic.

Know this, write it down this day that I told you. One day there is going to be something come out that is going to blow everyone away totally out of the water.Unfortunatley a lot of devestated lives. I am right about this you will see.
.No doubt. We've already seen this to some extent and on some levels.

As time winds down things aren't going to get better, that's for sure.

[Felicity]

The only real important question is when will the Countdown to Branson thread start? :stirpotLOL.

[RevBuddy]

Well, the fact is ..... nothing can be done about what has been initiated. It has begun, it's a work in progress and time will tell what kind of work it will be.

Live and let live. :)

I just pray these men will continue to love one another and continue to fellowship one another, because it seems to me that the differences aren't so great that they should or need to prevent that. God often directs men to do things and take certain steps and go in directions that others looking on shake their head at.

I guess the best thing is to leave it to God to sort out all the motives and actions people take and the whys of what they do and the decisions they make and the directions they take. He'll reward and bless according to His good pleasure and according to righteous unclouded perfect judgment.

Nobody can say that they've never acted out of less than the best of motives. Nobody can confess to perfection in any area of their lives. So finger pointing and judging needs to be done carefully, particularly when it involves the work of God and men and women who have been called of God and set apart for His purpose.

The most important thing is that the Gospel continues to be preached and that lost souls are saved. That's the primary mission of the Church. We need to be reminded of that occasionally.

From the cheap seats ...... :)

Felicity...

your words are very good...but please don't miss the point...spectators can comment on a baseball game EVEN IF they have never played baseball...political commentators can make judgments about the actions or behavior of politicians EVEN IF they have never run for office...

so, it is with us...yes, I am an imperfect individual with an imperfect ministry...I did not always pastor my church the way I should...but realizing my imperfection, it is still possible for me to comment on the behavior of these men WITHOUT impuning them personally...

the old adage has some applicability here...for us all

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." And I still say,

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[TrmptPraise]

Elder:

I have absolutely said this is a control movement. And I will stick by that. However, at no time, have I commented on the presence of God or the lack thereof. Those who do are foolish...

If you must leave an organization, by all means, leave. Each and every one of us have that right to do so. My comments have addressed only the questionable ethics about the "ways and means" that these brethren have left. Remaining IN an organization while taking premediated action to bring about its hurt, using UPCI data while not obtaining the necessary approvals, fees, etc. and lastly, actively recruiting its membership by letter, personally or by surrogates.

Secondly, when this same resolution (essentially the same, I should say) was defeated at an earlier GC, would we expect and/or endorse similar action should it have been taken by UPCI ministers with the opposing view?

I would oppose on ethical grounds any similar actions, either from the left or the right of our organization. An organization founded on questionable personal or corporate behavior has for itself, an inauspicious start.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Buy the mailing list and sell it not! :happydance

[Steve Epley]

I wish them the best it is not for me. The AMC is more to my liking.

[RevBuddy]

I wish them the best it is not for me. The AMC is more to my liking.

Elder:

How would you compare and contrast the two? What would be the significant differences in these two organizations?

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[StMark]

I didn't know that AMC was an organization - is it ???

[Felicity]

Felicity...

your words are very good...but please don't miss the point...spectators can comment on a baseball game EVEN IF they have never played baseball...political commentators can make judgments about the actions or behavior of politicians EVEN IF they have never run for office...

so, it is with us...yes, I am an imperfect individual with an imperfect ministry...I did not always pastor my church the way I should...but realizing my imperfection, it is still possible for me to comment on the behavior of these men WITHOUT impuning them personally...

the old adage has some applicability here...for us all

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." And I still say,

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

I get the point. LOL. :) I still think care needs to be taken.

if we're not careful we become guilty of doing the same things we judge others of doing and our attitudes and spirits get bent out of shape. Jesus' attitude and His instruction to His disciples was to "let them be".

The fact is that it hurts to see division take place. Sometimes it's a necessary hurt though. Other times it's simply a result of people getting caught up in politics and "issues".

We can still be "one" in the most important purpose of all which is to reach the lost with the Gospel and see lives transformed and saved from hell.

Pray about it. Lift your eyes from what you can see from the "natural viewpoint". Try to look at everything from God's point of view. If you do, you'll see little justification for judgmentalism and accusation.

God puts up with all of us. He loves us and is patient and merciful with us all, and like I say He's most concerned with souls being saved.

We get caught up in issues of pride and competition, carnal reasoning, and it sucks the spirit and life right out of us and then we wonder why there's so much barren-ness and so much unspirituality in our OWN ranks.

Pray for your brothers -- even those who have chosen to walk a different path. Let them know you love them and that you wish them the best. God will bless you for that and it will reap a good harvest.

It doesn't matter what others do. We're responsible for ourselves and no matter how others act we have a responsibility to keep our own attitudes and spirits right and to react in a right spirit, with kindness, God's love, self control and temperance which are ..... after all ....... the fruit of the Spirit.

:thumbsup

[RevBuddy]

I didn't know that AMC was an organization - is it ???

If it's not, it's doing a great imitation.


:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[CC1]

Felicity,

Has the Tulsa Worldwide Holiness Movement Incorporated put any twists in you and TB's move back to the UPC?

Is the WWPF a viable alternative to the UPC for you?

[CC1]

If it's not, it's doing a great imitation.


:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:



LOL!!! I think it is somewhat as how the great Will Rogers once said " I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat".

The AMF is organized but as loosely as possible. To pick a leader they all line up at one end of the sanctuary and run for the door. The slowest one "gets" to be the leader for the next year.:happydance

[RevBuddy]

I get the point. LOL. :) I still think care needs to be taken.

if we're not careful we become guilty of doing the same things we judge others of doing and our attitudes and spirits get bent out of shape. Jesus' attitude and His instruction to His disciples was to "let them be".

The fact is that it hurts to see division take place. Sometimes it's a necessary hurt though. Other times it's simply a result of people getting caught up in politics and "issues".

We can still be "one" in the most important purpose of all which is to reach the lost with the Gospel and see lives transformed and saved from hell.

Pray about it. Lift your eyes from what you can see from the "natural viewpoint". Try to look at everything from God's point of view. If you do, you'll see little justification for judgmentalism and accusation.

God puts up with all of us. He loves us and is patient and merciful with us all, and like I say He's most concerned with souls being saved.

We get caught up in issues of pride and competition, carnal reasoning, and it sucks the spirit and life right out of us and then we wonder why there's so much barren-ness and so much unspirituality in our OWN ranks.

Pray for your brothers -- even those who have chosen to walk a different path. Let them know you love them and that you wish them the best. God will bless you for that and it will reap a good harvest.

It doesn't matter what others do. We're responsible for ourselves and no matter how others act we have a responsibility to keep our own attitudes and spirits right and to react in a right spirit, with kindness, God's love, self control and temperance which are ..... after all ....... the fruit of the Spirit.

:thumbsup

Felicity...ok, I get it...I understand your position. I misunderstood...I thought we were trying to understand yours AND my position...


:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[Felicity]

Felicity...ok, I get it...I understand your position. I misunderstood...I thought we were trying to understand yours AND my position...


:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:
I totally understand your position. I've been on both sides of the fence. I have a perspective that many don't have and I think it might give me bit of an edge. Perhaps I'm deluded about that though. LOL.

I understand the unhappiness and disappointment of what has happened. I don't judge you for feeling as you do. Just trying to lend some perspective and giving my 2 cents worth. :)

[Felicity]

Felicity,

Has the Tulsa Worldwide Holiness Movement Incorporated put any twists in you and TB's move back to the UPC?

Is the WWPF a viable alternative to the UPC for you? LOL. You're a nut. ;) :)

I always enjoy reading your comments and perspective.

[CC1]

LOL. You're a nut. ;) :)

I always enjoy reading your comments and perspective.


LOL!!! I thought you would appreciate that.

BTW - Has the WWPF affected Canada much? Are there many churches conervative enough there for the pastors to leave the UPC and join the WWPF?