Tulsa Report Day 2

[Steve Epley]

Day 1 has been hyjacked. So I will post news here. Thanks for the prayers and concern again.

[TrmptPraise]

We really can't go by the numbers posted here can we. I am not saying the 1500 number in inaccurate. What I am saying is that we have no break down of those in attendance. What percentage are UPC ministers, what percentage are independents looking for a fellowship, what percentage are "observers?" We really won't know what the actual number will be until this is over and we see the number of "sign ups." correct?

[AmazingGrace]

We really can't go by the numbers posted here can we. I am not saying the 1500 number in inaccurate. What I am saying is that we have no break down of those in attendance. What percentage are UPC ministers, what percentage are independents looking for a fellowship, what percentage are "observers?" We really won't know what the actual number will be until this is over and we see the number of "sign ups." correct?

This is correct as I know personally 10 who are there from the upc well 8 are upc and the rest are aljc or independant... as observers only... so it would be interesting to see who all was actually there for the purpose.

[CC1]

We really can't go by the numbers posted here can we. I am not saying the 1500 number in inaccurate. What I am saying is that we have no break down of those in attendance. What percentage are UPC ministers, what percentage are independents looking for a fellowship, what percentage are "observers?" We really won't know what the actual number will be until this is over and we see the number of "sign ups." correct?

Don't forget wives and kids also. They did say yesterday that the 1,000 count was ministers. That would make sense if there were a total of 1500-2000 people there since the rest would be made up of wives and kids.

[MissBrattified]

Day 1 has been hyjacked. So I will post news here. Thanks for the prayers and concern again.

Sorry again! I hope you are feeling better!

[Raven]

Day 1 has been hyjacked. So I will post news here. Thanks for the prayers and concern again.
Friends
Let's let Elder Epley make his report and not get side-tracked with the "issues". That can be pursued on another thread. I'm nobody to give any "orders" that's just my idea of being polite.
Thanks
Raven

[Steve Epley]

We really can't go by the numbers posted here can we. I am not saying the 1500 number in inaccurate. What I am saying is that we have no break down of those in attendance. What percentage are UPC ministers, what percentage are independents looking for a fellowship, what percentage are "observers?" We really won't know what the actual number will be until this is over and we see the number of "sign ups." correct?

The downstairs seats 1600 and they said it was comfortably full. Two preachers told me 1200 was a safe number mostly men thus preachers. But you are correct many are observers which have no intention of joining. However let's say 500 join many of these are with large churches that would be quite a base for the formation of a group.

[Wink]

Friends
Let's let Elder Epley make his report and not get side-tracked with the "issues". That can be pursued on another thread. I'm nobody to give any "orders" that's just my idea of being polite.
Thanks
Raven

Yes the only reason anyone would ever "change the subject" would be either
boredom or uncomfortable subject matter.

[Steve Epley]

At Baker when the AMF formed if I remember correctly about 72 men crossed the line to form and that doubled within months then in about 4 years it had jumped to about 250 remember this was 68. So 500 men with well known leaders and some large churches in 5 years if they handle themselves like gentlemen it could be a large growth. Remember this is from a bystander I have no intention of joining and I know many men who have came out of the UPC that have no intention of joining. The majority of men who attend the AMC will not join.

[Apprehended]

At Baker when the AMF formed if I remember correctly about 72 men crossed the line to form and that doubled within months then in about 4 years it had jumped to about 250 remember this was 68. So 500 men with well known leaders and some large churches in 5 years if they handle themselves like gentlemen it could be a large growth. Remember this is from a bystander I have no intention of joining and I know many men who have came out of the UPC that have no intention of joining. The majority of men who attend the AMC will not join.

What, in your opinion, would be the reason?

[Michael Phelps]

At Baker when the AMF formed if I remember correctly about 72 men crossed the line to form and that doubled within months then in about 4 years it had jumped to about 250 remember this was 68. So 500 men with well known leaders and some large churches in 5 years if they handle themselves like gentlemen it could be a large growth. Remember this is from a bystander I have no intention of joining and I know many men who have came out of the UPC that have no intention of joining. The majority of men who attend the AMC will not join.

Hopefully, this is not too much of a hijack, but on the Day One thread, you mentioned that the Tulsa group will not issue licenses..........how then will they identify members?

[Steve Epley]

Hopefully, this is not too much of a hijack, but on the Day One thread, you mentioned that the Tulsa group will not issue licenses..........how then will they identify members?

They are recognizing local licenses put out by their local churches. It seems strange to me also. But I understand the why. No licenses no violation of the bylaws.

[Michael Phelps]

They are recognizing local licenses put out by their local churches. It seems strange to me also. But I understand the why. No licenses no violation of the bylaws.

I see, so in order to join, you need to be licensed SOMEWHERE. I was just wondering how they would keep control over the statement of beliefs of the individual members.

I won't belabor the point, but I wonder how they will handle independent brethren?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I see, so in order to join, you need to be licensed SOMEWHERE. I was just wondering how they would keep control over the statement of beliefs of the individual members.

I won't belabor the point, but I wonder how they will handle independent brethren?

Most GIB still seek accountability somewhere.

[Steve Epley]

I see, so in order to join, you need to be licensed SOMEWHERE. I was just wondering how they would keep control over the statement of beliefs of the individual members.

I won't belabor the point, but I wonder how they will handle independent brethren?

I have no idea? The concept is strange to me I don't undrstand what they are getting for $60 a month? But you and I both know licenses will be down the road. This is the infancy.

[pentecostisalive]

Bro. Reckart has posted some information on the conference:

http://apostoliccontender.blogspot.com/

[stmatthew]

I have no idea? The concept is strange to me I don't undrstand what they are getting for $60 a month? But you and I both know licenses will be down the road. This is the infancy.

Elder, I hope you are feeling better today.


I think the $60 a month fee is going to cause a few men that are not quite ready to leave the UPC to wait on joining this group. This high a cost for a simple fellowship card may become an issue.


I am with you though, $60 for what??

[PastorD]

Bro. Reckart has posted some information on the conference:

http://apostoliccontender.blogspot.com/

Funny....the caption on pic with wreckhart. He is all alone. . . . no one getting near him!

:stretch:

[Steve Epley]

Funny....the caption on pic with wreckhart. He is all alone. . . . no one getting near him!

:stretch:

I did notice that.

[Neck]

I have no idea? The concept is strange to me I don't undrstand what they are getting for $60 a month? But you and I both know licenses will be down the road. This is the infancy.

The concept is easy to figure out. This is relationship selling 101 at it's best.

Never make your proposective customer feel like you are bashing the competition early on in the sale cycle.

Never let your customer fee like they have been doing things wrong and need your solution.

Just show them the benefits of the new solution.

Thus is the reasoning of the WPF.

Do not force ministers to choose just the WPF this early on.

Until it gets off the ground financially and structurally.

Then they will have word of mouth advertising from the men who are leaders of the group....

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Bro. Reckart has posted some information on the conference:

http://apostoliccontender.blogspot.com/

It was last reported that someone close to GR posts on this blog, and not GR himself. The blog has had ugly things to say about our Forum, so many discredit anything of value there.

[Mr. Steinway]

The concept is easy to figure out. This is relationship selling 101 at it's best.

Never make your proposective customer feel like you are bashing the competition early on in the sale cycle.

Never let your customer fee like they have been doing things wrong and need your solution.

Just show them the benefits of the new solution.

Thus is the reasoning of the WPF.

Do not force ministers to choose just the WPF this early on.

Until it gets off the ground financially and structurally.

Then they will have word of mouth advertising from the men who are leaders of the group....

I believe you are correct! :D

[MissBrattified]

It was last reported that someone close to GR posts on this blog, and not GR himself. The blog has had ugly things to say about our Forum, so many discredit anything of value there.

If that is the case, he should be careful who he has represent him.

[MissBrattified]

I did notice that.

I find that to be a little sad, but surely a man cannot expect to be separated from his words.

[Melody]

per a phone call estimated 950 in attendance, mostly ministers, not all UPC

[pentecostisalive]

There is an Apostolic Summit blog on the internet. It is found @ http://apostolicsummit.blogspot.com/

Someone from Bro. Booker's church is posting on it.

[pentecostisalive]

per a phone call estimated 950 in attendance, mostly ministers, not all UPC

Apparently they did a count, and there was around 980 preachers in attendance, not including spouses and children.

[Steve Epley]

Just spoke with a La. GIB preacher he said there was over 950 preachers and the place was filled. He is very reliable.

[pentecostisalive]

Another blog related to the Apostolic Summit can be found @ http://takingitbyforce.blogspot.com/

[George]

These men always have ushers count the entire crowd at all their meetings and an usher said there was barely over 1000 in attendance. That included women and children. I have been at some of their meetings and the ushers literally walk down the aisle, pencil in hand, and count the entire crowd.

[Mr. Steinway]

per a phone call estimated 950 in attendance, mostly ministers, not all UPCThat's a number that I can believe! :)

[revrandy]

I have no idea? The concept is strange to me I don't undrstand what they are getting for $60 a month? But you and I both know licenses will be down the road. This is the infancy.

$60 x 12 = 720.00...

1000 Members..@ $720 per year...= 720,000.... very lucrative for the New Org....

[George]

$60 x 12 = 720.00...

1000 Members..@ $720 per year...= 720,000.... very lucrative for the New Org....

I wouldn't bet on a 1000

[revrandy]

I wouldn't bet on a 1000

Probably not...but even 200....$144,000 a year......

[revrandy]

What is actually happening today???

Classes...Services????

[revrandy]

I wonder if they are disappointed at not reaching 2000 or so???

[Timmy]

I think the $60 a month fee is going to cause a few men that are not quite ready to leave the UPC to wait on joining this group. This high a cost for a simple fellowship card may become an issue.


Doesn't have to cost a penny, out of pocket:

I will support the World Pentecostal Fellowship with my monthly dues contributed on a quarterly basis. This amount may come from my personal tithe, the remainder of which may also go to WPF or elsewhere in the work of God.

So it can come out of the "pocket" of the member's church, or whatever he tithes to. See the beauty of it?

[revrandy]

Doesn't have to cost a penny, out of pocket:



So it can come out of the "pocket" of the member's church, or whatever he tithes to. See the beauty of it?

Does it mean I could split my normal tithe to belong to the Elk's Club??

For Outreach purposes of course....


and the fancy hat....

:D

[Steve Epley]

I wonder if they are disappointed at not reaching 2000 or so???

I don't think so if they have close to 1000 preachers that is a large crowd. according to the votes only 2000 voted at Tampa they have been having meetings since 45. So nearly 1/2 ain't bad.

[George]

What is actually happening today???

Classes...Services????

The schedule is on this link
http://worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=30

[The Dean]

Bro. Reckart has posted some information on the conference:

http://apostoliccontender.blogspot.com/

I see he posed for his own picture in the last one. :happydance

[Timmy]

Does it mean I could split my normal tithe to belong to the Elk's Club??

For Outreach purposes of course....


and the fancy hat....

:D

Sure, why not? After all, WWPF is just a fellowship of like-mined folks, right? Like a club!

[Bullwinkle]

I don't think so if they have close to 1000 preachers that is a large crowd. according to the votes only 2000 voted at Tampa they have been having meetings since 45. So nearly 1/2 ain't bad.

I don't think the comparison stands.
The difference is motivation. Most UPC guys just are not all that motivated to go to a General Conference.
The minute you start an "anti" conference which is exactly what this is (whether anti tv, anti UPC or anti fresh air) you have some very motivated people.
Along with that you get a high percentage of rubber neckers.

[Music4Jesus]

i'm glad you said that about fresh air, cuz when my husband and i saw a certain minister that we had recently preached for on this new organizations website in a prominent position of course, we were not surprised. Less than 5 years ago he took a church of over 200 and now has about 70. Ran them all off because of his severity. His wife started telling me how them were disgusted because some of their saints still wore wedding rings and one of their members had committed the ultimate sin.....going to a tanning bed.

[TrmptPraise]

The downstairs seats 1600 and they said it was comfortably full. Two preachers told me 1200 was a safe number mostly men thus preachers. But you are correct many are observers which have no intention of joining. However let's say 500 join many of these are with large churches that would be quite a base for the formation of a group.

Sorry for the late response, Bro. Steve. I agree the 500 would be quite a base, but I think we are making the assumption that they are all pastors. Many of these could be individual ministers working withing their pastors church who may be in attendance as well. Or perhaps just ministers at-large.

[chseeads]

There is an Apostolic Summit blog on the internet. It is found @ http://apostolicsummit.blogspot.com/

Someone from Bro. Booker's church is posting on it.

From the blog:

If you don't know what the "Apostolic Summit" is all about, allow me to briefly fill you in.
My pastor, Rev. Larry L Booker, along with several other men of God have been in the process of forming a new "ministerial fellowship" for some time. The "Apostolic Summit" in Tulsa, Oklahoma (January 24-25, 2008) will be the first meeting of this new fellowship which has recently been given the name "Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship". (http://worldwidepf.org/)

I wonder how long "some time" is? lol

[revrandy]

2nd pic was Vaughn Morton I think....

[Melody]

they have pews? Wow usually its folding chairs.

[TrmptPraise]

they have pews? Wow usually its folding chairs.


And they are padded! Oh my!:covereyes

or maybe not...can't see the seat portion of them. sorry

[Kings Kid]

From the blog:

If you don't know what the "Apostolic Summit" is all about, allow me to briefly fill you in.
My pastor, Rev. Larry L Booker, along with several other men of God have been in the process of forming a new "ministerial fellowship" for some time. The "Apostolic Summit" in Tulsa, Oklahoma (January 24-25, 2008) will be the first meeting of this new fellowship which has recently been given the name "Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship". (http://worldwidepf.org/)

I wonder how long "some time" is? lol
The young man that is posting for Bookers church about this conference is the son of Larry Bookers Spanish works son Jarron Brown which is the son of Carl Brown.

[Melody]

just thought it was strange, I don't know that I've seen pews at a convention center before.

[timlan2057]

From the Norman Paslay letter:

There is no Missions piece to this agenda. The inclusion of Bible Quizzing is a travesty. They have claimed this noble vehicle of the UPCI; subjected youth to the open judgement of brethren as unworthy of fellowship and then used these precious youth as a human shield for their agenda of division, distraction and disruption. As a survivor of a horrific church split, it sickens me to see young people subjected to this practice of deeming some parts of the church as less holy than other elements.



Interesting.

I'll give Paslay this - he didn't consult me before he wrote the letter but we both used the term "human shields" with regard to youth and laymembers.

I think it's apt.

[AGAPE]

2nd pic was Vaughn Morton I think....

V Morton, D Hyler III, Bro Wheat...all spotted in pic #2

[Fab]

V Morton, D Hyler III, Bro Wheat...all spotted in pic #2

Would that be the Bro Wheat from Bastrop, La?

[AGAPE]

I heard Norm Pasley preach at a youth camp one year...
"Golf Lessons for the Soul"
he read his text from some versions of the Bible...I never figured out which and then talked on and on and on about his golf lessons...

[AGAPE]

Would that be the Bro Wheat from Bastrop, La?

I think that it is him...he is looking away, but I think that is him

[TrmptPraise]

Are you guys from the Bastrop area?

[Fab]

I am about 45 minutes away.

[Blubayou]

I think the numbers are pretty significant. It will be interesting to see who is there for the show and who will stick around.

[Michael Phelps]

I heard Norm Pasley preach at a youth camp one year...
"Golf Lessons for the Soul"
he read his text from some versions of the Bible...I never figured out which and then talked on and on and on about his golf lessons...

A double sin - reading from another text besides the King James, and using sinful golf as a spiritual lesson.

I wouldn't have gotten anything out of it either.:stirpot

[TrmptPraise]

I am about 45 minutes away.

Was just curious...born there Morehouse parrish hospital.. :toofunny

[TrmptPraise]

A double sin - reading from another text besides the King James, and using sinful golf as a spiritual lesson.

I wouldn't have gotten anything out of it either.:stirpot

*sings* "The only way to play is the fairway.....I'm just a chip shot away from Heaven...."

[retsambeW]

Golf Lessons For The Soul.


Man, I just need golf lessons on a course, not the soul. My soul gets it's lessons elsewhere. As for the golf...if you have seen me play, you will understand that lessons could only help.

Still enjoy golfing, though! :D

[rgcraig]

Bro. Epley is gonna be diappointed his report thread has been hijacked!

[Mr. Steinway]

Golf Lessons For The Soul.


Man, I just need golf lessons on a course, not the soul. My soul gets it's lessons elsewhere. As for the golf...if you have seen me play, you will understand that lessons could only help.

Still enjoy golfing, though! :D

Hang in there, bro! :D

Like you, I don't go to special church meetings for golf lessons! :D

[Kings Kid]

Has anyone spotted Bro.Paul Price or Bro.Brown.

[Thumper]

I have to say that 1000 is a pretty significant number. A lot more than I thought would be there thats for sure. It will be interesting to see how much of that number actually puts pen to paper and signs on the dotted line. 50% would seem like a pretty amazing start. You have to remember that this is just the formation meeting over the course of the next year I would say that you could possibly double that number with folks who are just waiting to see if it will get off the ground.

[Cindy]

Bro. Epley is gonna be diappointed his report thread has been hijacked!

AGAIN! It's just in our nature I guess......:TulsaTime:

[George]

just thought it was strange, I don't know that I've seen pews at a convention center before.

It is a Church of Christ that the county purchased

[deltaguitar]

Is this Sis. Wendell in this picture?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_xO3uljZ5R_Q/R5oQgXM0X4I/AAAAAAAAANQ/ocopRZWGYdM/s1600-h/IMG_0095cor.bmp

[staysharp]

Is this Sis. Wendell in this picture?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_xO3uljZ5R_Q/R5oQgXM0X4I/AAAAAAAAANQ/ocopRZWGYdM/s1600-h/IMG_0095cor.bmp

yep...kinda shocking.:tvhappy

[connielori]

This is correct as I know personally 10 who are there from the upc well 8 are upc and the rest are aljc or independant... as observers only... so it would be interesting to see who all was actually there for the purpose.




I would say that you have INCREDIBLY INCORRECT INFORMATION.....**To say the least. LOL

[Esther]

yep...kinda shocking.:tvhappy

Why do you think it is shocking? Does this group not allow women ministers?

[staysharp]

Why do you think it is shocking? Does this group not allow women ministers?

No, I know Sis. Wendell personally and thought she was above this.

[Melody]

Above going first hand and finding out for herself what this is all about?

[PastorD]

The young man that is posting for Bookers church about this conference is the son of Larry Bookers Spanish works son Jarron Brown which is the son of Carl Brown.


Where does Charlie fit into this family tree?


:toofunny

[Nahum]

Thanks for the updates Bro Epley!

Here's my two cents concerning all of this Tulsa madness:

It reeks.

It really, really reeks.

From the insurrectionists who called the meeting, to the organizational uniformists who castigate and marginalize them - it all reeks.

I'm so glad I am not close to the action any longer.

Thank you Jesus!

[PastorD]

Thanks for the updates Bro Epley!

Here's my two cents concerning all of this Tulsa madness:

It reeks.

It really, really reeks.

From the insurrectionists who called the meeting, to the organizational uniformists who castigate and marginalize them - it all reeks.

I'm so glad I am not close to the action any longer.

Thank you Jesus!



PP has gone #2. :happydance

[Steve Epley]

I have to say that 1000 is a pretty significant number. A lot more than I thought would be there thats for sure. It will be interesting to see how much of that number actually puts pen to paper and signs on the dotted line. 50% would seem like a pretty amazing start. You have to remember that this is just the formation meeting over the course of the next year I would say that you could possibly double that number with folks who are just waiting to see if it will get off the ground.

Tonite will be larger. For nearly 1000 preachers to show up at a meeting just announced since GC honestly is very phenomenal to say the least. And if they wind up signing up 500 guys with those influencial men and churches in the lead this will be very interesting. Am I interested in joining? No but this is going to change the landscape of Pentecost like it or not.

[Melody]

Steve will you go to Branson?

Just curious, as we wait for news of tonights service.

[rgcraig]

Tonite will be larger. For nearly 1000 preachers to show up at a meeting just announced since GC honestly is very phenomenal to say the least. And if they wind up signing up 500 guys with those influencial men and churches in the lead this will be very interesting. Am I interested in joining? No but this is going to change the landscape of Pentecost like it or not.

Bro. Epley,

Is it too personal to ask why you aren't interested in joining?

[AmazingGrace]

I would say that you have INCREDIBLY INCORRECT INFORMATION.....**To say the least. LOL

You have no idea who I am so how are you to know who I know and dont know that is there? I am kind of lost on your reply there... yep I know a whole lot of people who are there these last 2 days.. Tulsa is my old stompin ground and well... I would really like to know what you think I dont know as far as my post goes...

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Epley,

Is it too personal to ask why you aren't interested in joining?

I do not mind replying:
1. I really am not an organizational man.
2. I do not understand their concept already having all their officials selected before a formation meeting.
3. Some of the 49 on their list don't seem very conservative to me.
4. My stand on divorce and remarriage in the ministry would prohibit me from joining since already they have an official in that situation.
But the main reason is I don't see the need because;
The AMC meeting is open to Apostolic Conservative preachers without any affiliation.
The IAM Foundation supports missions where the missionary gets 100% of the missions money.
The Apostolic Compass fills the gap for a Conservative publication.
There are camps-conferences-youth meetings nearly beyond number besides anniverary services Bill Gates would go broke going to all of them. So fellowship among conservatives is in abundance.
I believe religious organization as we have known it is obsolete with the technology and means of travel we have today. I really think God is through with it for I cannot think of much of a service it provides.

[AmazingGrace]

I do not mind replying:
1. I really am not an organizational man.
2. I do not understand their concept already having all their officials selected before a formation meeting.
3. Some of the 49 on their list don't seem very conservative to me.
4. My stand on divorce and remarriage in the ministry would prohibit me from joining since already they have an official in that situation.
But the main reason is I don't see the need because;
The AMC meeting is open to Apostolic Conservative preachers without any affiliation.
The IAM Foundation supports missions where the missionary gets 100% of the missions money.
The Apostolic Compass fills the gap for a Conservative publication.
There are camps-conferences-youth meetings nearly beyond number besides anniverary services Bill Gates would go broke going to all of them. So fellowship among conservatives is in abundance.
I believe religious organization as we have known it is obsolete with the technology and means of travel we have today. I really think God is through with it for I cannot think of much of a service it provides.



Good points and I personally respect your stand here Bro Epley.

[Steve Epley]

Good points and I personally respect your stand here Bro Epley.

I am NOT bashing these men I will have friends no doubt in this group as I do in the UPC but these are my reasons.

[rgcraig]

I do not mind replying:
1. I really am not an organizational man.
2. I do not understand their concept already having all their officials selected before a formation meeting.
3. Some of the 49 on their list don't seem very conservative to me.
4. My stand on divorce and remarriage in the ministry would prohibit me from joining since already they have an official in that situation.
But the main reason is I don't see the need because;
The AMC meeting is open to Apostolic Conservative preachers without any affiliation.
The IAM Foundation supports missions where the missionary gets 100% of the missions money.
The Apostolic Compass fills the gap for a Conservative publication.
There are camps-conferences-youth meetings nearly beyond number besides anniverary services Bill Gates would go broke going to all of them. So fellowship among conservatives is in abundance.
I believe religious organization as we have known it is obsolete with the technology and means of travel we have today. I really think God is through with it for I cannot think of much of a service it provides.

Thank you very much for your honest and open answer!

You are a wise man.

[AmazingGrace]

I am NOT bashing these men I will have friends no doubt in this group as I do in the UPC but these are my reasons.

I understand and respect that 100%

[Kings Kid]

Where does Charlie fit into this family tree?


:toofunny
At the bottom.

[Steve Epley]

This has been coming for years anyone who has been around should have been able to have seen it. So it was expected yet also a shock. Pentecost has changed forever. It will be interesting to see both groups and their paths in the future.

[CC1]

Thank you very much for your honest and open answer!

You are a wise man.

Now don't get carried away!!!:happydance

[timlan2057]

Epley said:

I believe religious organization as we have known it is obsolete with the technology and means of travel we have today.


I think you're one hundred percent correct.

The Church of Christ has existed and pretty much thrived for two hundred years or so with absolutely no structure as far as headquarters, national, district and sectional officials and official national conferences.

Colleges and publishing houses have sprung up, some with a more liberal and others with a more conservative bent.

Men fellowship and give their money where they feel comfortable and draw their own lines.

Bloated religious organizational structure is a thing of the past.

[ChicagoPastor]

I have to say I'm surprised there's not more news coming out of Tulsa.
When is the Q&A session they were scheduled to have? Maybe that's when we'll get some more news...

I think TLC has some explainging to do. WHY would he be there if he isn't leaving the UPC? (i already heard his answer) Why support something that is anti-UPC if he's still with us? AND yes, they ARE anti-UPC. If they say we're headed in the wrong direction and they push the eject button and start their own thing, they're anti upc

[Steve Epley]

Epley said:




I think you're one hundred percent correct.

The Church of Christ has existed and pretty much thrived for two hundred years or so with absolutely no structure as far as headquarters, national, district and sectional officials and official national conferences.

Colleges and publishing houses have sprung up, some with a more liberal and others with a more conservative bent.

Men fellowship and give their money where they feel comfortable and draw their own lines.

Bloated religious organizational structure is a thing of the past.

I honestly think it is a waste of time-energy-money. That's just me.

[Steve Epley]

I have to say I'm surprised there's not more news coming out of Tulsa.
When is the Q&A session they were scheduled to have? Maybe that's when we'll get some more news...

I think TLC has some explainging to do. WHY would he be there if he isn't leaving the UPC? (i already heard his answer) Why support something that is anti-UPC if he's still with us? AND yes, they ARE anti-UPC. If they say we're headed in the wrong direction and they push the eject button and start their own thing, they're anti upc

I too am wondering about the slow information either so much is going on the folks are overloaded to post it or so little it does not seem worth the effort?

[Music4Jesus]

TLC could not leave and go with them on the grounds of wwpf being holier. Because he allowed Lanny to stay at FPC for years KNOWING what lanny was doing. That's swatting at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

[ChicagoPastor]

Bro. Epley,
What do they have to say about all this over at CAF? (if you're allowed to share)

[ChicagoPastor]

TLC could not leave and go with them on the grounds of wwpf being holier. Because he allowed Lanny to stay at FPC for years KNOWING what lanny was doing. That's swatting at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

:eek::jaw:jaw

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Epley,
What do they have to say about all this over at CAF? (if you're allowed to share)

There is not much being said about 100 of them are at the conference and they ain't reporting much? I have been on there fussing about it. NEWS!!!!!!
We should have sent Mark.:TulsaTime::TulsaROCKS:

[Kings Kid]

You guys might want to checkout ApostolicSummit.Blogspot.com Because he has a post up on about the Q and Session. Insteresting enough where they may get some of the ministers and pastors to leave the UPCI is the with Medical Benefits because their triple what the Upcis are.

[ChicagoPastor]

You guys might want to checkout ApostolicSummit.Blogspot.com Because he has a post up on about the Q and Session. Insteresting enough where they may get some of the ministers and pastors to leave the UPCI is the with Medical Benefits because their triple what the Upcis are.

All it is, is an extra 20K life insurance...no medical benefits. That won't be a big enough deal to get people to leave.

[ChicagoPastor]

http://apostolicsummit.blogspot.com/2008/01/triple-benefits-half-price.html

[BroGibs]

God Bless you guys! Keep us posted, we want to know whats going on.
Brothers from Louisiana!!

[Pressing-On]

Did anyone hear how the question and answer session went this afternoon?

[Sam]

From the Norman Paslay letter:




Interesting.

I'll give Paslay this - he didn't consult me before he wrote the letter but we both used the term "human shields" with regard to youth and laymembers.

I think it's apt.

The church pastored by Norman Paslay is a couple of miles from my house. I've only been there in their current building twice, both times for funerals for cousins of my wife.

When I first met Norman Paslay he was only about two years old. His parents, Norman and Mary Alice Paslay were asst pastors at the UPC church here in Cincinnati. Later in 1968 when Leroy Buller was brought in, they and a group of people left and formed another UPC church. They have both gone on to be with the Lord and their son is now pastor. Any time I have seen him he has always been nice to me. As far as I know, he's a good man.

[Discerner]

http://apostolicsummit.blogspot.com/2008/01/triple-benefits-half-price.html

Poor kid, he has an exciting future ahead of him.

[AGAPE]

There is not much being said about 100 of them are at the conference and they ain't reporting much? I have been on there fussing about it. NEWS!!!!!!
We should have sent Mark.:TulsaTime::TulsaROCKS:

yes Mark or Old Paths...at least we would have heard something and saw some photos...I started to call a few of my buddies that are there and then decided not to...I don't want to interupt service

CAF is dead...everybody that's posting is asking for NEWS FROM TULSA

[AGAPE]

Bro Godair should be speaking now ...if things are still as originally scheduled

[rgcraig]

yes Mark or Old Paths...at least we would have heard something and saw some photos...I started to call a few of my buddies that are there and then decided not to...I don't want to interupt service

CAF is dead...everybody that's posting is asking for NEWS FROM TULSA

Maybe they WERE right and the rapture took place!

[Pressing-On]

Maybe they WERE right and the rapture took place!

Why are WE still here?!!!!

[rgcraig]

Why are WE still here?!!!!
Cause we are wrong?

[Pressing-On]

Cause we are wrong?

I'm never wrong! Puleeze! :happydance

[Harmony]

It is quiet because they are taking a cool aide break.

[Ron]

I'm never wrong! Puleeze! :happydance

:hmmm

[Pressing-On]

:hmmm

Well, not that I recall - I don't think. Ya think?

:toofunny

[Mrs. LPW]

I heard Norm Pasley preach at a youth camp one year...
"Golf Lessons for the Soul"
he read his text from some versions of the Bible...I never figured out which and then talked on and on and on about his golf lessons...

I heard Bro Paisley preach youth camps as well.. and they were great...

[pelathais]

I heard Norm Pasley preach at a youth camp one year...
"Golf Lessons for the Soul"
he read his text from some versions of the Bible...I never figured out which and then talked on and on and on about his golf lessons...

I heard Bro Paisley preach youth camps as well.. and they were great...
"AGAPE" must be a misnomer.

[AGAPE]

"AGAPE" must be a misnomer.

:stirpot

[Markus]

I am licensed with the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, International, Incorporated. I believe that it is the oldest oness organization in existence. I know that a couple of years ago we celebrated our 92nd GC. With all the fees that I pay there, I see no need to join some other organization as well as the one I am in now and pay additional fee's. I do not pay near $60.00 a month for my license now. I also noted one of the questions on the application that said, (paraphrase) Have you ever dropped out of an organization to avoid facing charges of a immoral nature? I thought that was an interesting question. I guess they are trying to cover all the bases.

[stmatthew]

I am licensed with the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, International, Incorporated. I believe that it is the oldest oness organization in existence. I know that a couple of years ago we celebrated our 92nd GC. With all the fees that I pay there, I see no need to join some other organization as well as the one I am in now and pay additional fee's. I do not pay near $60.00 a month for my license now. I also noted one of the questions on the application that said, (paraphrase) Have you ever dropped out of an organization to avoid facing charges of a immoral nature? I thought that was an interesting question. I guess they are trying to cover all the bases.


Do they have a website?

[Markus]

Do they have a website?

www.acjcii.com

[jbigg]

<<Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, International, Incorporated. I believe that it is the oldest oness organization in existence.>>

PAW is older. It is the oldest. Founded by G.T.Hayward.

[jbigg]

AC of JC was established in 1915 but was not chartered until 1925.

[Mrs. LPW]

http://www.uac-jc.org/home.php

Is this it?

[blueaugust]

Is there anything new from Tulsa? We Filipino Oneness Pentecostals are really interested as to the outcome of this summit because this can really affect our fellowship here also in one way or another...

[AGAPE]

I think Bro Fleming belonged to the acjc

[Hoovie]

Is there anything new from Tulsa? We Filipino Oneness Pentecostals are really interested as to the outcome of this summit because this can really affect our fellowship here also in one way or another...

Please relax, there is no split in progress this is quite evident.

Blessings to you and the work God placed in your hands.

[jbigg]

http://www.uac-jc.org/home.php

Is this it?


No, it's this one.

http://www.acjcii.com/

[ForeverBlessed]

http://www.uac-jc.org/home.php

Is this it?

that is the one that Bro. Flemming (Webby of FCF) was a part of. We have one of their churches in the city I live in. It was started after my dad came to pastor (upc)here in 63.

In some ways, they are more strict than UPC, but they allow ministers to have TV's in their home.

[Neck]

TLC could not leave and go with them on the grounds of wwpf being holier. Because he allowed Lanny to stay at FPC for years KNOWING what lanny was doing. That's swatting at a gnat and swallowing a camel.


Agreed! Without saying More!

[The Dean]

Well, folks, Tulsa is over and it just wasn't everything it's critics said it would be.

Got a PM and I'm using it with permission from a 'lurker' who is also a 'friend' of mine. He Pastors with his father and is a great, balanced man. His perspective is a pretty good indicator to me as he is very open and honest with me.

Well Bro. Johnny Godair did incredible tonight - simply cast a direction or should I say a prefered direction. He touched on or preached on Doctrine, Holiness and Revival - and it was an old time message backed by an incredible spirit. Overall I must say I am well pleased with everything... the Spirit of this meeting was incredible - my dad and many others were very pleased by this - they were afraid it might turn out to be a upc bashing fest. To be honest I don't think they really thought that, but I think it was in the back of thier mind a little.

Many things were totally and absolutely debunked in a very kind way - that now makes a lot of the letter writing and accusations in my opinion look silly.

My eyes were totally opened to Church Goverment and to Missions probably for the first time. No ones fault I guess it just really made sense to me how they are going to do things. I am going to go to thier website and purchase the CD's, I didn't have time tonight - because of the crowd of people.

There was well over a thousand there tonight - around 14 to 15 hundred preachers, the bottom layer was full and they said it seats 1800, but I have no exact count - but it was full tonight.

Over 150,000.00 was given tonight in the offering at last count - I have no idea what the final count well be.

One man was saying tonight and I have no idea who he was - but he had a gold ring on his finger and he was talking to bro. *** in our fellowship and he was telling him that 'this' and tapped his ring wouldn't stop him from joining something like this, talking about wpf - he said I'm over sixty years old and I'm not getting any younger and this is what I want to be around. Later on at El Chico's bro. **** was saying this man is a millionaire and that he was held many, many positions in the upc and bro. **** seemed to be awed by the fact that this man was so moved by the spirit of the place and willing to do whatever to be apart of wpf. He said this is major - cuz this man has been and, perhaps still will be, very involved in the upc.

Anyway overall - a very clear sound and a terrific spirit.

My 2 cents for ya!

Love ya lots and lots,
***



There was more in a 'PS' at the end of his PM but, trust me, that information would be another entire 'Tulsa' type series of threads. Not sure we need that right now.

And, by the way, it has nothing to do with the UPC, television or the Tulsa crew.

:crazyluv The craziness just never ends! :crazyluv

(Why do I suddenly feel like Thad when I typed those last few lines?) hehe

[revrandy]

Life goes on.....:)

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Life goes on.....:)

And dues are still $60 a month....... :TulsaTime:

[revrandy]

And dues are still $60 a month....... :TulsaTime:

Sorry...Can't join that club.... :)

[TrmptPraise]

Does anybody know if an actual membership session was held at the end of the night as was indicated on their schedule? If so, what was the response?

[Evang.Benincasa]

that is the one that Bro. Flemming (Webby of FCF) was a part of. We have one of their churches in the city I live in. It was started after my dad came to pastor (upc)here in 63.

In some ways, they are more strict than UPC, but they allow ministers to have TV's in their home.

You live in New Castle?

[PocatelloApostolic]

Friends & Romans,
This meeting has been a historical event with a dynamic spirit that completely made fools and idiots out of all the nay-sayers and rumor starters. Some of you should have kept quiet until the meeting was over. Now the egg is on your face and by the way, what does shoe leather taste like anyhow??!! JUST GET THE CD'S!! The Spirit of the EC & GC was one of humility and desire for stronger Apostolic doctrine, holiness, and revival. I'm glad I came and feel that this fellowship will only grow with time. This meeting has had the finger prints of the Holy Ghost on it from the first night! THE CHURCH IS GOING ON!!

[revrandy]

Friends & Romans,
This meeting has been a historical event with a dynamic spirit that completely made fools and idiots out of all the nay-sayers and rumor starters. Some of you should have kept quiet until the meeting was over. Now the egg is on your face and by the way, what does shoe leather taste like anyhow??!! JUST GET THE CD'S!! The Spirit of the EC & GC was one of humility and desire for stronger Apostolic doctrine, holiness, and revival. I'm glad I came and feel that this fellowship will only grow with time. This meeting has had the finger prints of the Holy Ghost on it from the first night! THE CHURCH IS GOING ON!!

The High Road is sure crowded.....Good for you.....:happydance

Did you join?

[PocatelloApostolic]

Not yet? I want to see what will happen at Branson!

[revrandy]

Not yet? I want to see what will happen at Branson!

Why would you wait?

[TrmptPraise]

Does anybody know if an actual membership session was held at the end of the night as was indicated on their schedule? If so, what was the response?

Not yet? I want to see what will happen at Branson!


Since you were there, could you answer my question above. Thanks.

[The Dean]

Does anybody know if an actual membership session was held at the end of the night as was indicated on their schedule? If so, what was the response?

Evidently the response was pretty strong as the report I heard is that the 6 coordinators all cancelled their flights and lined up preachers for their Sunday services so they can stay over the weekend to process all the requests for membership.

I thought that was unique to say the least.

[PocatelloApostolic]

I will say this though. I think that, over a period of 1-2 years there will be alot more that will be leaving not only the UPC but also other org's especially if this group keeps the spirit that has prevaded in this meeting!

[TrmptPraise]

Evidently the response was pretty strong as the report I heard is that the 6 coordinators all cancelled their flights and lined up preachers for their Sunday services so they can stay over the weekend to process all the requests for membership.

I thought that was unique to say the least.

Unique indeed.

[blueaugust]

Please relax, there is no split in progress this is quite evident.

Blessings to you and the work God placed in your hands.

Oh, I'm as relax as you are... Just inquiring... :happydance

And thanks for the blessings.

[connielori]

Friends & Romans,
This meeting has been a historical event with a dynamic spirit that completely made fools and idiots out of all the nay-sayers and rumor starters. Some of you should have kept quiet until the meeting was over. Now the egg is on your face and by the way, what does shoe leather taste like anyhow??!! JUST GET THE CD'S!! The Spirit of the EC & GC was one of humility and desire for stronger Apostolic doctrine, holiness, and revival. I'm glad I came and feel that this fellowship will only grow with time. This meeting has had the finger prints of the Holy Ghost on it from the first night! THE CHURCH IS GOING ON!!


My advice:.....emulate what you experienced. Please don't come back and give the incredible results and men a bad name. Please emulate their spirits.

[NW Pastor]

I am not as interested in what is said as what is done. The Tulsa 6 have told brethren they do not have to leave the UPC to be a part of this new "fellowship" which will allow them to form a competing organization within an organization complete with a foreign missions, home missions, youth, education, SS, and ladies department, and even bible quizzing. They can fellowship each other and ostracize the rest of the UPCI.

Again, why stay UPC? There will be no end to the friction as the two camps drift apart fellowship less and disagree more.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. How the leaders think we can peacefully co-exist is beyond me. It will not happen. There will be a new organization completely separate from the UPCI in time. It does't even take a prophet to predict it.

So again, I don't care as much about what is said in the pulpit by the master orators of the Tulsa 6. The are careful word crafters. What will be the results of the decisions that are made?

[blueaugust]

My advice:.....emulate what you experienced. Please don't come back and give the incredible results and men a bad name. Please emulate their spirits.

I completely agree...

[NW Pastor]

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.

As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

[jrLA]

The thing that really bugs me is that these men are very crafty speakers. I feel that a bill of goods has been sold to those in attendance. There is NOTHING right about division....

This buisiness of co-existing....what are these people thinking. It is a very sad day! I grieve in my spirit over this.

But.....Life does go on and so does the work of God. THe job will be as it has always been, get to work reaping the harvest! Bro. Tenney say...Keep the main thing the main thing! I intend on it!

[connielori]

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.
As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

I am from California, and can tell you first hand....*I refuse to go into details, (don't agree w/mud slinging) but we are ones that have looked for other alternatives. Not to shut anyone out....no one was excluded. Just HAD to. Drastic changes caused it.

[NW Pastor]

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise? Also, although no one was excluded, was everyone included?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

[Steadfast]

The thing that really bugs me is that these men are very crafty speakers. I feel that a bill of goods has been sold to those in attendance. There is NOTHING right about division....

This buisiness of co-existing....what are these people thinking. It is a very sad day! I grieve in my spirit over this.

But.....Life does go on and so does the work of God. THe job will be as it has always been, get to work reaping the harvest! Bro. Tenney say...Keep the main thing the main thing! I intend on it!

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

[George]

I am not as interested in what is said as what is done. The Tulsa 6 have told brethren they do not have to leave the UPC to be a part of this new "fellowship" which will allow them to form a competing organization within an organization complete with a foreign missions, home missions, youth, education, SS, and ladies department, and even bible quizzing. They can fellowship each other and ostracize the rest of the UPCI.

Again, why stay UPC? There will be no end to the friction as the two camps drift apart fellowship less and disagree more.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. How the leaders think we can peacefully co-exist is beyond me. It will not happen. There will be a new organization completely separate from the UPCI in time. It does't even take a prophet to predict it.

So again, I don't care as much about what is said in the pulpit by the master orators of the Tulsa 6. The are careful word crafters. What will be the results of the decisions that are made?

Dora said it well on another thread - something to this effect.
If they straddle the fence very long they will get mighty sore.

[connielori]

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

I really would rather not get into the details. (I really don't want to be taken wrong. Or sound like I'm mud slinging.) What I would like to emphasize is that no one was ever excluded. Most people just feel more comfortable being around others that are more like them. I love everyone, and want everyone to be saved. But I have to seek out my own salvation with fear and trembling. We are very humbly trying to do that.

[jrLA]

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!


First of all, thanks for the respect. I am very pleased that these men conducted themselves in a Godly manner. I am pleased that there was a good spirit and that they condoned no UPC bashing and that they made that clear. My worry or feelings of concern is in the fact that the very action seems so rediculous to me, to find a "perferred direction". We are the church and God does not glory in our finding our own way of doing things but in coming together to do things. He is pleased for men to dwell together in unity, not to be headed in different directions.

By in large, fundamentaly, we all believe the same thing. It just seem less than right to not be able to come together to accomplish this endtime push for revival.

I've watched several of these men all of my life. I have admired their stand for God and leadership. I am just dissapointed this has happened.

I am not crying, I am dissappointed! I think things could have been different.

Yes, I am sincere, but NO you would not find me in the Tulsa crowd. I Don't believe so!

By the way, steadfast....I amire your posts....usually! :TulsaNO:

[embonpoint]

Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

What a concept!! Are you sure this isn't a little heretical???:D

Actually good advice for us all.

:scoregood:highfive:clap

:thumbsup

[Steadfast]

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.

As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

I am from California, and can tell you first hand....*I refuse to go into details, (don't agree w/mud slinging) but we are ones that have looked for other alternatives. Not to shut anyone out....no one was excluded. Just HAD to. Drastic changes caused it.

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise? Also, although no one was excluded, was everyone included?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

[lad]

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'Shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!


....shouldn't that be a lowercase "s"..... (shepherd) since He is the Shepherd.

lol - just remembering your previous posts...

Great post by the way!

[Steadfast]

My worry or feelings of concern is in the fact that the very action seems so rediculous to me, to find a "perferred direction". We are the church and God does not glory in our finding our own way of doing things but in coming together to do things. He is pleased for men to dwell together in unity, not to be headed in different directions.

Yes... "How good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"... but what do you do when can't 'dwell together'?

The same Bible that says that also said, "How can two walk together except the agree?" jrLA, there are times that unity is NOT pleasing to God! You seem to imply that these men should overlook what they are actually convicted by God about for the sole purpose of 'unity'. Is that really what it takes to please God?

Their 'breaking point' may be advertising on television... yours and mine are probably somewhere else. However, the principle remains the same; if you've read my prior post you need to answer the question for me...

Should I take my Church to 'fellowship meetings' with a Church that casually drinks... for the sake of 'unity'?

Should I take my Church to fellowship with people who believe that trinity mode baptism in the titles is as good as Jesus Name baptism because it's just a 'sign that doesn't mean much'... all for the sake of unity?

Unity is a great thing. Unity at the cost of sacrificing genuine convictions is not pleasing to God.

I respect the men who left. They are living by their convictions. I intend to live by mine. But I won't put a price tag on my calling to protect my Saints just for the sake of 'unity'.

[Steadfast]

....shouldn't that be a lowercase "s"..... (shepherd) since He is the Shepherd.

lol - just remembering your previous posts...

Great post by the way!

Duly noted. :toofunny

[pelathais]

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

[OfInterest]

Pelathais, what terrible experiences you have had. I hope you have found some sort of healing. I will pray for you. This man that you speak of..I don't believe he is truly a disciple of Jesus Christ according to John 13:35.

35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

This is how the world will know if we are truly disciples of Christ. All this other "hogwash" will still be hogwash. Hopefully the man in question has repented. God's grace is great enough for all of us.

I too have seen men who deemed themselves spiritual giants, act in immoral and unethical ways. It is so disheartening, disappointing, and can be depressing. We have to keep our focus on Jesus Christ and what He did for us and leave the rest of it to God. Truly, organizations are mostly for the birds. The local church is what really matters. Being accountable to the body of Christ where you are. If most of these folks spent a tenth of the time, money, and energy going to the plethora of conferences that now exist..(which is a joke)...if they spent that time ministering to the lost and hurting in their own community, and caring for those in their own church, they would not feel the need to go get refreshed at yet another conference. Things would be so exciting around their local church that "yet another conference" wouldn't have so much appeal.

That is my two cents anyway.

[Sarah]

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.



WOW........You've been through, and seen a lot, haven't you?

No, I've never seen anything remotely like you've described. And I've been in the church fifty years. I've seen disgruntled people, but nothing like that.

How terrible for you........God bless and keep you.

[oletime]

yes that is sis wendell ,she has spoken in our church many times, i told her once she has the second most famous apostolic hairdo [next to j hugh rose ] she laughed and said i was a mess , i guess that must be louisianaan speak ! LOL .a great lady the one and only mother of the ethiopian church ! great missionary from the 60"s , even though the goverment of haile salasi forced all the missionaries to leave after her and her husbands first term, the work is still very strong and thriving ! GOD BLESS HER !

[mizpeh]

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

Do you recieve any comfort in knowing that the Judge of all the earth sees and knows these things? And there is nothing hid which will not be one day revealed and brought to the light? We reap what we sow....this is the patience of the saints.

[ChicagoPastor]

Not yet? I want to see what will happen at Branson!

So it was SOOOOOOOOOO good that you just can't get yourself to join yet?
IF this movement has as you put it, the fingerprints of God all over it why the delay?
Still doubting? Still not convinced?
I think if you saw the finger prints of God all over something, one wouldn't hesitate to join.

[ChicagoPastor]

Friends & Romans,
This meeting has been a historical event with a dynamic spirit that completely made fools and idiots out of all the nay-sayers and rumor starters. Some of you should have kept quiet until the meeting was over. Now the egg is on your face and by the way, what does shoe leather taste like anyhow??!! JUST GET THE CD'S!! The Spirit of the EC & GC was one of humility and desire for stronger Apostolic doctrine, holiness, and revival. I'm glad I came and feel that this fellowship will only grow with time. This meeting has had the finger prints of the Holy Ghost on it from the first night! THE CHURCH IS GOING ON!!

Too bad you don't flow in that same "dynamic Spirit"
Careful! Sounds like your attitude is the kinda the Tulsa 6 are trying to avoid!

[Hoovie]

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Rev., I'll set aside the implication that the "other" churches in the UPC condone and promote homosexuality... No doudt that is not true, but some of the other things you mentioned, such as;

tasting alcohol, having a less rigid view regarding baptismal regeneration, and a tolerance of the "Light Doctrine". How does this new group prevent these things from happening there? And specificly, are these forbidden views/actions in the WPF?

[rgcraig]

I am not as interested in what is said as what is done. The Tulsa 6 have told brethren they do not have to leave the UPC to be a part of this new "fellowship" which will allow them to form a competing organization within an organization complete with a foreign missions, home missions, youth, education, SS, and ladies department, and even bible quizzing. They can fellowship each other and ostracize the rest of the UPCI.

Again, why stay UPC? There will be no end to the friction as the two camps drift apart fellowship less and disagree more.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. How the leaders think we can peacefully co-exist is beyond me. It will not happen. There will be a new organization completely separate from the UPCI in time. It does't even take a prophet to predict it.

So again, I don't care as much about what is said in the pulpit by the master orators of the Tulsa 6. The are careful word crafters. What will be the results of the decisions that are made?

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.

As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

I agree! Good words.

[mizpeh]

Pelathais,

You've had some horrible things done to you by some of those that name the name of Christ. But you seem to be lumping them, the men who have done harm to you and the name of Christ, all into one mold....the PAJC/UC mold. But there are some posters here who fit that mold, maybe not the epitomy of it, but who would lie within the confines of that mold who you have to admit are not in the same category as those who have injured you....CS and Steadfast come to mind. After many months of reading their posts I cannot lump them with the hateful men you have described in your post. These are sincere men who understand some things differently than others and hold to their beliefs. Just as we hold to ours.

Do you think of ALL the Tulsa men along the same lines as those whom you have known to have abused their position of authority in the past? I understand your skepticism but are you being unfair in your assessment of them? Time will tell and God knows all the intents of the heart. Maybe I'm misreading your posts, but all UC's are not evil and all Liberals are not good.

[rgcraig]

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

[Hoovie]

So it was SOOOOOOOOOO good that you just can't get yourself to join yet?
IF this movement has as you put it, the fingerprints of God all over it why the delay?
Still doubting? Still not convinced?
I think if you saw the finger prints of God all over something, one wouldn't hesitate to join.

Perhaps, our new friend Poc is waiting till Branson to watch the dress code at Silver Dollar City!


;)

[mizpeh]

Rev., I'll set aside the implication that the "other" churches in the UPC condone and promote homosexuality... No doudt that is not true, but some of the other things you mentioned, such as;

tasting alcohol, having a less rigid view regarding baptismal regeneration, and a tolerance of the "Light Doctrine". How does this new group prevent these things from happening there? And specificly, are these forbidden views/actions in the WPF?

I was thinking the same thing about the shacking up thing. I think and hope he meant girls in his church. And how this is not considered sin in any type of church is beyond me.

[mizpeh]

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them. Yep, that's the message they are sending loud and clear.

[Barb]

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

Sadly, I agree.

The very words of the preamble attest to this...

[ChicagoPastor]

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Bro. I feel your sincerity and your concern in the above post....had Tulsa 6 talked about all these things maybe I'd have a different opinion, but what caused this split was a simple resolution that allows for TV advertising. That was the 'big issue', that's what got everyone all stirred up.

I too have preached for a few of these men. The ones I preached for (all on the East Coast) I know are good, Godly men. I am still surprised that resolution #4 meant so much to them that they have become leaders of this new movement.

[rgcraig]

Sadly, I agree.

The very words of the preamble attest to this...

Of course it does. People are people. You can't divide up churches and families and keep a "good spirit" about it. I have no doubt in my mind the services are great in Tulsa and the words are good, but just like any other meeting.....those feeling can be fleeting.

In time will this all settle down, sure it will and everyone will go their own ways. Will some be the better for it, probably. Will some not be, possibly.

[rgcraig]

Bro. I feel your sincerity and your concern in the above post....had Tulsa 6 talked about all these things maybe I'd have a different opinion, but what caused this split was a simple resolution that allows for TV advertising. That was the 'big issue', that's what got everyone all stirred up.

I too have preached for a few of these men. The ones I preached for (all on the East Coast) I know are good, Godly men. I am still surprised that resolution #4 meant so much to them that they have become leaders of this new movement.

It was just the last domino.

[Mr. Steinway]

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?

[Fireside]

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.


Renda,

I am by no means a spokesman or apologist for the WWPF, though I am acquainted with some of the men involved, and have friends going that way.

But I do think I have some understanding of their thinking.

I am sure there are men involved whose motives and intents aren't 100% pristine. My knowledge of human nature tells me that.

But there has been a feeling shared by many that the UPC is drifting to the left. I think it probably is myself. In fact, there really is no denying that. The questions are, how far will it drift, and how fast? And how is this drift going to affect me and my local fellowship?

Some of the men putting this thing together live in places where the things they deal with at district events is a far cry from what I see. And if I were in those locations, I might have a different point of view than I do now.

The concern expressed by many going Tulsa way is direction. Where are the changes the UPC is undergoing leading? Will the UPC my kids see in 20 years be something I would want them being connected to?

Obviously, we see things very differently regarding these matters, but I share some of the concerns of the Tulsa brethren. It just happens that I am in a rather isolated and extremely conservative area, and our people aren't much affected by the goings on in more "progressive" venues.

[Barb]

Of course it does. People are people. You can't divide up churches and families and keep a "good spirit" about it. I have no doubt in my mind the services are great in Tulsa and the words are good, but just like any other meeting.....those feeling can be fleeting.

In time will this all settle down, sure it will and everyone will go their own ways. Will some be the better for it, probably. Will some not be, possibly.

The gifted preaching of the founders lets us know you are right. Knowing Bishop W as I do, he is a top-drawer type who expects quality in every area and would present nothing less.

The fact that some are impressed that there was not any open UPCI bashing surprises me. Why would anyone think they would do such a thing?! They all realize what an impact that would have.

[Mr. Steinway]

Let's face it, we ALL are biased toward folks that we consider friends. If they line up to our core beliefs, the bias gets even stronger.

Is a move of the Holy Ghost necessarily a sign of approval of one's direction or actions?

I personally have been moved by sermons and visions by preachers that I later found to be adulterers and degenerates. The Holy Ghost moved in Jim Jone's services before he forced them to drink the kool-aid.

The truth is that the Holy Ghost will move anywhere where there are godly people seeking after him.

[Steve Epley]

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?

Friend this is so unlike you I had to look twice to see if it was you. Are you having a bad day?:girlytantrum To say it is a facade is so impugning could it change you bet. Why wouldn't they be happy with 1000 preachers showing up on such a short notice?

[Discerner]

I get a funny feeling when I hear about how they did not bash the UPCI. Does anyone realize that if they did bash the UPCI at this public meeting that it would have a negative affect on the fence sitters? I mean this is an anti-upci as it gets. These men are seeking position and affirmation since they could not find it in the UPC. Look at how many of the Tulsa team have lost recent election in the upc. Do we think they would be resigning to go to Tulsa? I say no way.

Just like the AMF of the 70s. They are trying not to be, but its hard to start a successful organization that is formed out of division. When division is your motivation it becomes your foundation.

[Steve Epley]

I get a funny feeling when I hear about how they did not bash the UPCI. Does anyone realize that if they did bash the UPCI at this public meeting that it would have a negative affect on the fence sitters? I mean this is an anti-upci as it gets. These men are seeking position and affirmation since they could not find it in the UPC. Look at how many of the Tulsa team have lost recent election in the upc. Do we think they would be resigning to go to Tulsa? I say no way.

Just like the AMF of the 70s. They are trying not to be, but its hard to start a successful organization that is formed out of division. When division is your motivation it becomes your foundation.

The AMF was formed in the 60's and was formed because certain men were thrown out illegally according to the manual. I have all the correspondance concerning it. They formed because they had no recourse. The GS was afraid of the La & Tx. Supts and bowed to their wishes all contrary to the manual.

[timlan2057]

The AMF was formed in the 60's and was formed because certain men were thrown out illegally according to the manual. I have all the correspondance concerning it. They formed because they had no recourse. The GS was afraid of the La & Tx. Supts and bowed to their wishes all contrary to the manual.

Epley, while I don't quite have the totally idealistic view of the AMF framers any more than I do the Tulsa guys, I will say your last sentence is correct.

Stanley Chambers was newly elected General Superintendent and really, Chambers was just a nice guy and a bean counter.

He was swimming with sharks dealing with Weeks and Guidroz.

Was a newly-elected GS going to stand up and over-rule the very tenured and very strong District Superintendents of what-was-then by far the UPC's two mightiest districts?

Not a snowball's chance in the infernal regions.

[Mr. Steinway]

Friend this is so unlike you I had to look twice to see if it was you. Are you having a bad day?:girlytantrum To say it is a facade is so impugning could it change you bet. Why wouldn't they be happy with 1000 preachers showing up on such a short notice?

Bro Epley, you are correct! The use of the word "facade" was too strong for this issue! "Facade" means a fake front. I don't believe the face of the Tulsa group is totally fake. I do believe they put on a positive face!

I was wrong for using such a strong word! I apologize! :)

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

Brother, I've not experienced all that you have (but some of it). I can say that NOTHING would surprise me anymore. The people who did this to you and the people who lied, stole and tried to destroy me will be judged by a just God. What God knows is not what people know. I waved "good bye" too and I am a better man for it.

[Steve Epley]

Epley, while I don't quite have the totally idealistic view of the AMF framers any more than I do the Tulsa guys, I will say your last sentence is correct.

Stanley Chambers was newly elected General Superintendent and really, Chambers was just a nice guy and a bean counter.

He was swimming with sharks dealing with Weeks and Guidroz.

Was a newly-elected GS going to stand up and over-rule the very tenured and very strong District Superintendents of what-was-then by far the UPC's two mightiest districts?

Not a snowball's chance in the infernal regions.

There is a story behind some of this most folks don't know. There was a plot to remove Elder Burr from his church so a prominent person could take the church over (no names) he was encouraged to run for GS from men he thought was his friends it was a manuver to oust him. He lost then the same guys tried to get him to run for DS but he had wisened up, but at the expense of making the DS then upset. It was a politcal plot that failed but it opened his eyes up to the political corruption of organizational politics. So he began to write and did he write? And true Bro. Chambers had just became Supt and he was not going to clash with those two war horses. I do not know about Guidroz but Weeks told many a preacher in his later years he did not handle that correctly and was sorry. They never thought it would cause the disruption it caused. But I NEVER heard Elder Burr speak unkind about Guidroz-Weeks-Chambers only the system.

[timlan2057]

There is a story behind some of this most folks don't know. There was a plot to remove Elder Burr from his church so a prominent person could take the church over (no names) he was encouraged to run for GS from men he thought was his friends it was a manuver to oust him. He lost then the same guys tried to get him to run for DS but he had wisened up, but at the expense of making the DS then upset. It was a politcal plot that failed but it opened his eyes up to the political corruption of organizational politics. So he began to write and did he write? And true Bro. Chambers had just became Supt and he was not going to clash with those two war horses. I do not know about Guidroz but Weeks told many a preacher in his later years he did not handle that correctly and was sorry. They never thought it would cause the disruption it caused. But I NEVER heard Elder Burr speak unkind about Guidroz-Weeks-Chambers only the system.

I think I was the last preacher to meet a Louisiana District Board when C. G. Weeks was district superintendent.

Campmeeting 1978 - I had graduated from JCM that May.

I met the board for my general license Friday night just before 7pm. Weeks briefly read a note from Brother Ewing and they passed me, then talked about having to rush out to get on the platform.

That was the final night of campmeeting,

Weeks complained of chest pains after service and was brought to the hospital, where he died that night.

[CC1]

I will say this though. I think that, over a period of 1-2 years there will be alot more that will be leaving not only the UPC but also other org's especially if this group keeps the spirit that has prevaded in this meeting!

You sound absolutely giddy at the prospect of them raiding the UPC of its members.

If they can pull most of the conservatives out of the UPC that has kept it from being a powerful relevent force in carrying out the Great Commission I say "More Power to 'em!".

Give them a year or two and they will be fussing and fighting among themselves over so called "holiness" issues. The guys allowing 3/4 sleeves will be the new targets, the "libs" of that org. Not to mention the few that use the internet and video.

[Mr. Steinway]

I think I was the last preacher to meet a Louisiana District Board when C. G. Weeks was district superintendent.

Campmeeting 1978 - I had graduated from JCM that May.

I met the board for my general license Friday night just before 7pm. Weeks briefly read a note from Brother Ewing and they passed me, then talked about having to rush out to get on the platform.

That was the final night of campmeeting,

Weeks complained of chest pains after service and was brought to the hospital, where he died that night.
Wow! You have quite an effect on people! :D

[timlan2057]

Wow! You have quite an effect on people! :D

What can I say?

Must be my charming personality.

[jrLA]

Yes... "How good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"... but what do you do when can't 'dwell together'?

The same Bible that says that also said, "How can two walk together except the agree?" jrLA, there are times that unity is NOT pleasing to God! You seem to imply that these men should overlook what they are actually convicted by God about for the sole purpose of 'unity'. Is that really what it takes to please God?

Their 'breaking point' may be advertising on television... yours and mine are probably somewhere else. However, the principle remains the same; if you've read my prior post you need to answer the question for me...

Should I take my Church to 'fellowship meetings' with a Church that casually drinks... for the sake of 'unity'?

Should I take my Church to fellowship with people who believe that trinity mode baptism in the titles is as good as Jesus Name baptism because it's just a 'sign that doesn't mean much'... all for the sake of unity?

Unity is a great thing. Unity at the cost of sacrificing genuine convictions is not pleasing to God.

I respect the men who left. They are living by their convictions. I intend to live by mine. But I won't put a price tag on my calling to protect my Saints just for the sake of 'unity'.


Standing for your convictions is one thing. I applaud you for that. You do have a right to protect your people, that is for sure. You should feel that way.

Of course, there are times when your conviction outwieghs your committment to unity. I understand that. It is just that these men are not motivated by simple conviction. This organization or Fellowship has men on their general committee that ARE NOT conservative. I know for a fact. Their churches are the most liberal in the area! So, how can it be just about conviction and holiness! No, friend that may be their battle cry, but it isn't the true motive. That is for sure. Try politics...position... Now that is my opinion. But it seems very obvious. I may not be as old as you are, but I know some things as well! And...those things did not come from this forum!

The UPC is a very diverse group. Literally from one end of the spectrum to the other. I believe that is one of the things that makes us great. I certainly don't agree with eveything my brethren do or the nieghboring church does. There are instances where there MAY need to be restrictions on fellowship, but in my expirience that is few and far between.

I believe in teaching my people to live for GOd for themselves. Get your convictions for you! Don't pay attention to what the other church is doing as far as your convictions. There are hipocrites in EVERY church! I've got to learn to keep my eyes on God not them. Just as Peter stepped out of the boat and took his eyes off of Jesus and sunk....so will I if I take my eyes off of Jesus. I am not sure if always sheltering folks from reality is the best way to protect them. (jmo)

Steadfast....You pastor with great wisdom and I applaud you for seeking to protect your folks. But, I don't believe that is the same thing as this Tulsa business! Not the same at all! :TulsaNO:

[CC1]

Renda,

I am by no means a spokesman or apologist for the WWPF, though I am acquainted with some of the men involved, and have friends going that way.

But I do think I have some understanding of their thinking.

I am sure there are men involved whose motives and intents aren't 100% pristine. My knowledge of human nature tells me that.

But there has been a feeling shared by many that the UPC is drifting to the left. I think it probably is myself. In fact, there really is no denying that. The questions are, how far will it drift, and how fast? And how is this drift going to affect me and my local fellowship?

Some of the men putting this thing together live in places where the things they deal with at district events is a far cry from what I see. And if I were in those locations, I might have a different point of view than I do now.

The concern expressed by many going Tulsa way is direction. Where are the changes the UPC is undergoing leading? Will the UPC my kids see in 20 years be something I would want them being connected to?

Obviously, we see things very differently regarding these matters, but I share some of the concerns of the Tulsa brethren. It just happens that I am in a rather isolated and extremely conservative area, and our people aren't much affected by the goings on in more "progressive" venues.


From your keyboard to the ears of God! I sure hope you are right. Perhaps with these conservative men now off doing their own thing (I give them a honeymoon period of a year or two then they will be fussing and fighting with each other over so called "holiness standards") the UPC will live up to it's potential to bring the Oneness Jesus Name message to the world.

Initially the UPC will appear more conservative though, I believe, as it reacts to the Tulsa Worldwide Apostolic Pentecostal Holiness Movement Incorporated. There will be more "holding the fort" messages than ever but hopefully over time you and the other cons and ultra cons who have been bemoaning the "drift to the left" will be proven right as common sense, logic, and Biblical principles will prevail.

[rgcraig]

Bro. Epley,

Don't forget to start a Day Three

[timlan2057]

Initially the UPC will appear more conservative though, I believe, as it reacts to the Tulsa Worldwide Apostolic Pentecostal Holiness Movement Incorporated. There will be more "holding the fort" messages than ever but hopefully over time you and the other cons and ultra cons who have been bemoaning the "drift to the left" will be proven right as common sense, logic, and Biblical principles will prevail.

That's already happening.

Anthony Mangun attempted to shore up the conservative base at BOTT a couple weeks ago.

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Epley,

Don't forget to start a Day Three

The info is nearly non-existent I accused them of forming a secret society.

[Fireside]

From your keyboard to the ears of God! I sure hope you are right. Perhaps with these conservative men now off doing their own thing (I give them a honeymoon period of a year or two then they will be fussing and fighting with each other over so called "holiness standards") the UPC will live up to it's potential to bring the Oneness Jesus Name message to the world.

Initially the UPC will appear more conservative though, I believe, as it reacts to the Tulsa Worldwide Apostolic Pentecostal Holiness Movement Incorporated. There will be more "holding the fort" messages than ever but hopefully over time you and the other cons and ultra cons who have been bemoaning the "drift to the left" will be proven right as common sense, logic, and Biblical principles will prevail.

LOL...:stirpot

[MissBrattified]

The info is nearly non-existent I accused them of forming a secret society.

LOL!!!!!!!

[Mr. Steinway]

What can I say?

Must be my charming personality.
:lol

[Music4Jesus]

I love what steadfast had to say. H

[CC1]

LOL...:stirpot

Shhh!!! I am hoping with so many new visitors lurking and viewing these threads I can motivate some to actually sign up and post out of vitriolic anger at my posts.:toofunny

[rgcraig]

The info is nearly non-existent I accused them of forming a secret society.

LOL....okay, just trying to keep things simple.

[Music4Jesus]

He sounds like a good shepherd. It's like when you're a parent and try to teach your children right and protect them.

I was raised in a very conservative church and I loved it! Our church was powerful. It's sad to see churches that have begun to head left.

There is one in the district I was raised in that recently built a 15 million dollar complex and then started losing people. So the pastor did what he felt he had to and had meetings with his leadership and said....you can start going to the movies now. sad.

They feel financial pressure and cave thinking that will bring more people.

[MissBrattified]

Mother says she has the book by MB somewhere, called "Shadow of the Bramble."

[Fireside]

Mother says she has the book by MB somewhere, called "Shadow of the Bramble."

Great book.

[Pressing-On]

He sounds like a good shepherd. It's like when you're a parent and try to teach your children right and protect them.

I was raised in a very conservative church and I loved it! Our church was powerful. It's sad to see churches that have begun to head left.

There is one in the district I was raised in that recently built a 15 million dollar complex and then started losing people. So the pastor did what he felt he had to and had meetings with his leadership and said....you can start going to the movies now. sad.

They feel financial pressure and cave thinking that will bring more people.
I'm glad you had that experience.

I'm looking back and seeing so much wrong on each side - liberal and conservative. I tend to have leanings on both sides, as many do, on various issues.

[NW Pastor]

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?


All of this "they never bashed the UPC at all" stuff is a little sick. They didn't have to. They had already delivered a crushing and painful blow by their divisive actions.
Anyone ever hear of rhetoric? Or duplicity? They are saying one thing, while something totally different is taking place. For the life of me I cannot understand this fixation some have upon what is said. They are not "bashing" the UPC, they are just carving it up, or carving out a slice for them to control. Not bashing?

Additionally, what about the flyer sent to thousands of preachers citing a "preferred" apostolic future? Preferred over whom or what? Does that not knote a certain "we are taking the right way while the others are off the path"?

We who have remained with the certainly flawed UPC certainly have a right to take affront at such statements.

Again, watch what happens, don't listen only to what is said.

[CC1]

I love what steadfast had to say. H

I have news for Steadfast. When I was a UPC teenager I saw just as many girls from "conservative" churches who "shouted" their uncut hair down in service in the back seat of cars with guys as girls from the so called liberal churches.

I have NEVER seen strict standards translate to moral behaviour in teenagers. If anything it allows them to compartmentalize what is right and wrong since they have that long laundry list of do's and don'ts. They seem to justify in their mind that if they don't cut their hair, wear makeup, go to movies, etc, etc that they can then commit sexual sin and still come out okay on the balance ledger. Not all by any measure but enough that it proves that enforced legalistic standards have squat to do with a persons morality.

We obviously are not UPC but my kids have been raised around it and spent entire summers at UPC relaitves homes and attending UPC churches. My two boys assessment is that old time Pentecostal girls are wild. Much wilder than the baptist and charismatic girls they date.

[rgcraig]

I have news for Steadfast. When I was a UPC teenager I saw just as many girls from "conservative" churches who "shouted" their uncut hair down in service in the back seat of cars with guys as girls from the so called liberal churches.

I have NEVER seen strict standards translate to moral behaviour in teenagers. If anything it allows them to compartmentalize what is right and wrong since they have that long laundry list of do's and don'ts. They seem to justify in their mind that if they don't cut their hair, wear makeup, go to movies, etc, etc that they can then commit sexual sin and still come out okay on the balance ledger. Not all by any measure but enough that it proves that enforced legalistic standards have squat to do with a persons morality.

We obviously are not UPC but my kids have been raised around it and spent entire summers at UPC relaitves homes and attending UPC churches. My two boys assessment is that old time Pentecostal girls are wild. Much wilder than the baptist and charismatic girls they date.
What were you doing in the front seat watching?????

[MissBrattified]

Great book.

I suppose I'll have to read it now. :coffee2

I know one thing--my Daddy was never real hip on the "system" either.

My Grandpa had a conflict with Bro. Branding years back. Over a pig. :) It's quite a funny little story.

[Pragmatist]

There is one in the district I was raised in that recently built a 15 million dollar complex and then started losing people. So the pastor did what he felt he had to and had meetings with his leadership and said....you can start going to the movies now. sad.

They feel financial pressure and cave thinking that will bring more people.

I'm sorry but that sounds absolutely ridiculous. "We need more people so you can start going to movies???"

How firsthand was the knowledge of that statement?

And really, are there churches that have set rules like "You can't go to movies?"

My pastor teaches relationship with God and doesn't feel the need to micromanage our lives. Of course, that probably makes him a liberal.

[Music4Jesus]

The problem is...standards alone don't save you. People have to be taught to fall in love with Jesus Christ. When you love somebody you do what pleases them. If we love HIM, we will do what pleases HIM.

[Esther]

I think I was the last preacher to meet a Louisiana District Board when C. G. Weeks was district superintendent.

Campmeeting 1978 - I had graduated from JCM that May.

I met the board for my general license Friday night just before 7pm. Weeks briefly read a note from Brother Ewing and they passed me, then talked about having to rush out to get on the platform.

That was the final night of campmeeting,

Weeks complained of chest pains after service and was brought to the hospital, where he died that night.

Tim, thanks for sharing this history. I vaguely remember Bro. Weeks as I was a young girl and we didn't get to go to camp meeting hardly ever. I didn't realize his death was rather sudden.

[Pressing-On]

I have news for Steadfast. When I was a UPC teenager I saw just as many girls from "conservative" churches who "shouted" their uncut hair down in service in the back seat of cars with guys as girls from the so called liberal churches.

I have NEVER seen strict standards translate to moral behaviour in teenagers. If anything it allows them to compartmentalize what is right and wrong since they have that long laundry list of do's and don'ts. They seem to justify in their mind that if they don't cut their hair, wear makeup, go to movies, etc, etc that they can then commit sexual sin and still come out okay on the balance ledger. Not all by any measure but enough that it proves that enforced legalistic standards have squat to do with a persons morality.

We obviously are not UPC but my kids have been raised around it and spent entire summers at UPC relaitves homes and attending UPC churches. My two boys assessment is that old time Pentecostal girls are wild. Much wilder than the baptist and charismatic girls they date.
I don't really believe that is what they think. I believe they are living their parent's religion and until they meet God for themselves they will continue to follow youthful lust. Not much different than a teenager in any religious or secular setting.

[timlan2057]

Of course, there are times when your conviction outwieghs your committment to unity. I understand that. It is just that these men are not motivated by simple conviction. This organization or Fellowship has men on their general committee that ARE NOT conservative. I know for a fact. Their churches are the most liberal in the area!

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

[CC1]

What were you doing in the front seat watching?????

Er.....we used to all go "parking" at the same pond in my town. LOL!!!! I was, for the most part, a good boy though that didn't do the things a lot of the others were doing!

I have close friends and relatives though that have stories that are amazing!

I remember in Louisiana in the 70's there was a significanat portion of young people who reacted to the legalism by toeing the line for a few months or year or so then if they slipped up a little they would just throw in the towel and live like the devil until a youth meeting, revival, or youth camp then pray through again for yet another few months or year until they stumbled again and began to repeat the process.

I remember in particular a girl from our "moderate" church who went to live in some town where her brother was at for the summer and he attended an ultra con church. She came back condemming all the girls to hell for wearing open toed shoes, etc until she violated some little aspect of the legalism then yet once again threw in the towel and lived like the devil till the next youth camp. Ah the cycle of life.

[MissBrattified]

I don't really believe that is what they think. I believe they are living their parent's religion and until they meet God for themselves they will continue to follow youthful lust. Not much different than a teenager in any religious or secular setting.

I agree with you on this one. Pentecostal teenagers are just like every other teenager until they choose to follow Christ.

[PastorD]

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.



Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.

[CC1]

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.

I didn't realize he pastored close enough to my church for our saints and young people to have corrupted his!

(I assumed he must be talking about some independent Oneness churches in his area that had "gone charismtaic", not UPC ones.)

[StMark]

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.



My lips are sealed :happydance

[rgcraig]

My lips are sealed :happydance

That's a first! :girlyluv

[Cindy]

That's a first! :girlyluv

:toofunny

[PastorD]

My lips are sealed :happydance

Speak up!

:toofunny

[StMark]

Speak up!

:toofunny



This whole thing is unreal!
If you want to know the real deal on all of it, come west.

that's all. Y'all have a pleasant day

[revrandy]

pianoman....

You and I think alike...they could not afford to critisize.....to do so would have brought disdain...so instead they worshipped together and felt God so it was all good...

The men who planned this are very smart and very intelligent.... but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure these things out....

Spend some time in the vicinity of some and you'll learn more than you need to know...

Remember to ask the local men around them what they feel about them...

As St. Mark said...Go West...and you'll soon figure it out.....cuz' everything that glows ain't always purty......

[AGAPE]

No, it's this one.

http://www.acjcii.com/

I personally know 5 of those guys....
one lost his church b/c of immoral actions

[StMark]

pianoman....

You and I think alike...they could not afford to critisize.....to do so would have brought disdain...so instead they worshipped together and felt God so it was all good...

The men who planned this are very smart and very intelligent.... but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure these things out....

Spend some time in the vicinity of some and you'll learn more than you need to know...

Remember to ask the local men around them what they feel about them...

As St. Mark said...Go West...and you'll soon figure it out.....cuz' everything that glows ain't always purty......

Randy are you really sure about this???? But Randy what is your opinion about the youth - that is, that they are more holy then other youth ???? just curious

[George]

Standing for your convictions is one thing. I applaud you for that. You do have a right to protect your people, that is for sure. You should feel that way.

Of course, there are times when your conviction outwieghs your committment to unity. I understand that. It is just that these men are not motivated by simple conviction. This organization or Fellowship has men on their general committee that ARE NOT conservative. I know for a fact. Their churches are the most liberal in the area! So, how can it be just about conviction and holiness! No, friend that may be their battle cry, but it isn't the true motive. That is for sure. Try politics...position... Now that is my opinion. But it seems very obvious. I may not be as old as you are, but I know some things as well! And...those things did not come from this forum!

The UPC is a very diverse group. Literally from one end of the spectrum to the other. I believe that is one of the things that makes us great. I certainly don't agree with eveything my brethren do or the nieghboring church does. There are instances where there MAY need to be restrictions on fellowship, but in my expirience that is few and far between.

I believe in teaching my people to live for GOd for themselves. Get your convictions for you! Don't pay attention to what the other church is doing as far as your convictions. There are hipocrites in EVERY church! I've got to learn to keep my eyes on God not them. Just as Peter stepped out of the boat and took his eyes off of Jesus and sunk....so will I if I take my eyes off of Jesus. I am not sure if always sheltering folks from reality is the best way to protect them. (jmo)

Steadfast....You pastor with great wisdom and I applaud you for seeking to protect your folks. But, I don't believe that is the same thing as this Tulsa business! Not the same at all! :TulsaNO:

Amen. That is how I believe it. Teach convictions instead of sheltering.

[jrLA]

This whole thing is unreal!
If you want to know the real deal on all of it, come west.

that's all. Y'all have a pleasant day

I have precevied that the Western District has it share of political drama....?:TulsaNO:

[Mrs. LPW]

I personally know 5 of those guys....
one lost his church b/c of immoral actions

That happens in every denom... humanity will always be human... not very profound but the truth

[Fireside]

Every successful ministry I know is appreciated more from afar than it is by those nearby.

This is virtually without exception the case.

Ho hum.

[Blubayou]

I have not read this entire thread yet, but I feel I must make a comment about this new organization (that is what it is). I think they are doomed to failure because one of the main reason for founding their organization is legislation of regulations. We cannot legislate morality, that must come from our core, based on character and our walk with God. I agree with several posters that this organization is destined to have infighting, and bickering about rules and regulations and the enforcement of said rules and regulations. If it was about revival and a move of God- that could be done within the current confines of the UPC- or as an independent. IMHO

[Nahum]

I have a question for Steadfast and Coonskinner.

Why do you continue to support these men in this endeavor?

Why aren't you condemning them for their deceptive behavior?

I still remember (last October) when both of you claimed a new organization wasn't being formed. That you had been told it would not happen by some of the same men who are now a part of this group.

I think your integrity is in question here. Your bias is evident, and it's troubling.

You both think nothing of questioning the honesty of men who sign an affirmation statement with no intention of abiding by it.

Why then do these men get a free pass from both of you?

BTW, I think both of you are fine men, I just don't understand the blatant double standard.

Please respond sincerely, as I am tired of hearing how "great" these men are, and what a "great spirit" they all have.

I just don't buy it.

[AGAPE]

That happens in every denom... humanity will always be human... not very profound but the truth

u r right but one of those guys was PUT OUT of the upc b/c of his immorality now he is with this group....

[Nahum]

I have a question for Steadfast and Coonskinner.

Why do you continue to support these men in this endeavor?

Why aren't you condemning them for their deceptive behavior?

I still remember (last October) when both of you claimed a new organization wasn't being formed. That you had been told it would not happen by some of the same men who are now a part of this group.

I think your integrity is in question here. Your bias is evident, and it's troubling.

You both think nothing of questioning the honesty of men who sign an affirmation statement with no intention of abiding by it.

Why then do these men get a free pass from both of you?

BTW, I think both of you are fine men, I just don't understand the blatant double standard.

Please respond sincerely, as I am tired of hearing how "great" these men are, and what a "great spirit" they all have.

I just don't buy it.

Nothing personal. I'm just waiting for an apology from both of you fine men.:happydance

[Fireside]

I have a question for Steadfast and Coonskinner.

Why do you continue to support these men in this endeavor?

Why aren't you condemning them for their deceptive behavior?

I still remember (last October) when both of you claimed a new organization wasn't being formed. That you had been told it would not happen by some of the same men who are now a part of this group.

I think your integrity is in question here. Your bias is evident, and it's troubling.

You both think nothing of questioning the honesty of men who sign an affirmation statement with no intention of abiding by it.

Why then do these men get a free pass from both of you?

BTW, I think both of you are fine men, I just don't understand the blatant double standard.

Please respond sincerely, as I am tired of hearing how "great" these men are, and what a "great spirit" they all have.

I just don't buy it.


I repeated what I had heard from a friend who had spoken to one of the original six.

It has been my understanding that this thing evolved somewhat from the original plans, which were the plans I first heard about.

It is entirely possible that my understanding of what I heard was flawed, or that there was some miscommunication involved between when the words were spoken and when I heard them.

I might be naive. I am admittedly biased in favor of men I love and respect and who have been a blessing to me.

But to say my appreciation for them, and my choice to believe what they say is an integrity issue for me?

I am not really following you there.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I have a question for Steadfast and Coonskinner.

Why do you continue to support these men in this endeavor?

Why aren't you condemning them for their deceptive behavior?

I still remember (last October) when both of you claimed a new organization wasn't being formed. That you had been told it would not happen by some of the same men who are now a part of this group.

I think your integrity is in question here. Your bias is evident, and it's troubling.

You both think nothing of questioning the honesty of men who sign an affirmation statement with no intention of abiding by it.

Why then do these men get a free pass from both of you?

BTW, I think both of you are fine men, I just don't understand the blatant double standard.

Please respond sincerely, as I am tired of hearing how "great" these men are, and what a "great spirit" they all have.

I just don't buy it.

From what I understand-
It is a fellowship with no credentials. One does not have to leave behind the UPC to be a member.

Your post is troubling.

see Post #239 from Coonskinner.

[Fireside]

Nothing personal. I'm just waiting for an apology from both of you fine men.:happydance


I apologize for posting a mistaken understanding of what I was told by an acquaintance who spoke with one of the original six very soon after Tampa.

[Pressing-On]

Perhaps they didn't anticipate how many were going to participate at the outset and when they found out decided it was enough to form an organization?

[freeatlast]

The AMF was formed in the 60's and was formed because certain men were thrown out illegally according to the manual. I have all the correspondance concerning it. They formed because they had no recourse. The GS was afraid of the La & Tx. Supts and bowed to their wishes all contrary to the manual.

Sounds about the same way they they bowed and ramroded the Westburg Resolution or he AS upon the church.

The spirit behind the voting in of that Affirmation Statement was about as low a moment in the integrity of our movement that most of us have ever seen.

[Barb]

I have a question for Steadfast and Coonskinner.

Why do you continue to support these men in this endeavor?

Why aren't you condemning them for their deceptive behavior?

I still remember (last October) when both of you claimed a new organization wasn't being formed. That you had been told it would not happen by some of the same men who are now a part of this group.

I think your integrity is in question here. Your bias is evident, and it's troubling.

You both think nothing of questioning the honesty of men who sign an affirmation statement with no intention of abiding by it.

Why then do these men get a free pass from both of you?

BTW, I think both of you are fine men, I just don't understand the blatant double standard.

Please respond sincerely, as I am tired of hearing how "great" these men are, and what a "great spirit" they all have.

I just don't buy it.

I am disappointed in you, PP...for what it is worth, very disappointed.

On the one hand you say that Steadie and Coonskinner are fine men, but you question their integrity.

They are two of the finest men I have never met...what has happened to you?!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Perhaps they didn't anticipate how many were going to participate at the outset and when they found out decided it was enough to form an organization?

:stop

Stop this, or I will be glad you are back!

[Mrs. LPW]

u r right but one of those guys was PUT OUT of the upc b/c of his immorality now he is with this group....

If he's repented and God is using him again, who am I to judge?
I know of a man who committed adultery with his church secretary, consequently left (or was removed) from pastoring and being licenced with the UPCI... repented.. his wife forgave him.. and now pastors an independant work many many miles away...

I'm not going to start a whole conversation on whether men should be reinstated after a sin such as this... but I do know God's grace is all sufficient and he's not trying to preach in the same area he fell in. He isn't stirring up old memories and wounds. He's one of the most humble men I've met.

[Nahum]

I repeated what I had heard from a friend who had spoken to one of the original six.

It has been my understanding that this thing evolved somewhat from the original plans, which were the plans I first heard about.

It is entirely possible that my understanding of what I heard was flawed, or that there was some miscommunication involved between when the words were spoken and when I heard them.

I might be naive. I am admittedly biased in favor of men I love and respect and who have been a blessing to me.

But to say my appreciation for them, and my choice to believe what they say is an integrity issue for me?

I am not really following you there.

I am saying some of these men claimed they were not going to do the exact thing they are currently doing. They made these claims while planning for a new org was under way.

This is not debatable. It has been verified by many good people.

However, you chose to believe their denials, and still continue to support and uplift these men even though their actions can be viewed as nothing short of deceptive.

Please tell me how you can honestly and objectively chastise men who sign the affirmation statement with no intent to abide by it, while at the same time commending this Tulsa group, who have obviously engaged in unethical and deceptive behavior?

Where is your consistency?

[Fireside]

Perhaps they didn't anticipate how many were going to participate at the outset and when they found out decided it was enough to form an organization?

PO, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and I don't mind admitting that.

But it is just slightly possible that there might not be near as much intrigue and guile here as the detractors want to perceive.

It seemed to me early on that different things, slightly, were being stated by different members of the original six. That tells me that they really might not have totally worked out all the details months in advance the way some want to think.

The concept seems to have evolved somewhat since the first tentative reports came out.

That is what I think.

But I will admit openly that I am biased in favor of men I have respected my whole life, and am hesitant to believe ill of them.

[Nahum]

From what I understand-
It is a fellowship with no credentials. One does not have to leave behind the UPC to be a member.

Your post is troubling.

see Post #239 from Coonskinner.

How is my post troubling?

I am not trying to be vicious here, I just don't think that entire conversation should be swept under the rug.

I was banned over that event.

I took my punishment - no problem.

I just think there is an issue that is being overlooked here.

[Weary Pilgrim]

From what I understand-
It is a fellowship with no credentials. One does not have to leave behind the UPC to be a member.
Your post is troubling.

see Post #239 from Coonskinner.


All of this talk about being at peace with the UPC sounds good politically,but if it was really true,why are they making their young people break all ties with their friends from other UPC churches?

[Barb]

PO, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and I don't mind admitting that.

But it is just slightly possible that there might not be near as much intrigue and guile here as the detractors want to perceive.

It seemed to me early on that different things, slightly, were being stated by different members of the original six. That tells me that they really might not have totally worked out all the details months in advance the way some want to think.

The concept seems to have evolved somewhat since the first tentative reports came out.

That is what I think.

But I will admit openly that I am biased in favor of men I have respected my whole life, and am hesitant to believe ill of them.

As we should be...