Body-Politic and the Way of Lawlessness

[Apprehended]

They (the Tulsa 6) have now formed a very effective "super-dooper-holiness voting caucus" within the UPCI. One is now left to wonder how things will unravel in light of this supposed high road to greater and stronger holiness stance within the denomination. They are proud to lift the banner higher, to raise the standard of holiness from the mire of Tampa. Certainly, their names will go down in history.

There can be no doubt...the UPCI as a political animal has a huge political quandry on its lap that will not be worked out with a few phone calls and a few letters. The level of debate within the house has now been raised several decibels which is not likely to subside within the foreseeable future. I fear that it will only grow louder.

The tsunami is not so evident out at sea but quickly becomes manifestly destructive when it comes home to shore, as it is sure to do in rapid and successive waves. The old mama lion may not be on her deathbed as another has claimed it to be, but certainly she has a huge toothache and a thorn in the paw as well.

Everyone determined to take the highroad is admirable. Sooooo admirable. But look, in the world of politics, everyone starts out on the highroad but always end up in the ditch, slinging mud. It never fails.

It's the nature of the BEAST. Politics has its roots in the world's governments. World governments have their power derived by conquest or it is created by and has its powers conferred upon it by a greater government which gained its powers by armed revolt or violent conquest. This is the genesis of all politics. Its fruit is politics, the art of compromise accepted by ballot. The root of ecclesiastical government emerge from deep within the soil of the state by which is derives its power to exist.

Politics is the fruit of the tree. It is the way of the world. It is known as worldliness...but people love it. The definition of iniquity is not always sin. Sometimes it is not sin at all, but just plain old lawlessness. In otherwords, it is outside the dominion (kingdom) of God's laws. Anything that operate, has life, have its power, recognition and authority outside the laws of the Kingdom of God is INIQUITOUS. All who repent, God says that he will remember their sins AND iniquity no more. Sins and iniquity are not always the same.

The slick, cool hand of the art of politics is a bloody hand. It is the cause of far more souls lost to eternity than can possibly be saved, even with the finest oratory for the good.

Can you imagine Jesus telling a bunch of preachers who did everything in his name...who called him LORD by revelation, who cast out devils, prophesied in his name, did many wonderful works, obviously had the Holy Ghost and were Oneness...TO DEPART FROM HIM AS WORKERS OF INIQUITY. That blows your mind. How can it be? They were sinless but full of INIQUITY...the way of the world, outside the laws of the Divine Kingdom.

Please don't tell me how annointed are men who are fast, persuasive ecclesiastical operators of the art and science of the politic. That annointing will profit nothing when Jesus says, "Depart from me ye WORKERS of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU." Just another way of saying, "You operated outside the bounds of the laws of the KING-DOM...the DOMinion of God.

Something to think about.

[blueaugust]

Nice words... :TulsaNO:

[Raven]

Apprehended
You are rapidly becoming one of my favorite writers. You do have a way with words!
Excellent insight and spiritual perception. That bit of writing is something we all need to remember and file away for future reference. Operating outside the "laws of the Kingdom" is a warning that should make us all pause and check our hearts.
Raven

[Steve Epley]

Politics is the blight of the Pentecostal movement some that ain't moving.:happydance

[NW Pastor]

Martin Luther admirally stood firm on his conviction of "the just shall live by faith" 500 years ago. He also claimed the moral high ground. However, within just a few years religious warfare erupted in his homeland, claiming the lives of 10's of thousands of innocents. There was bloodshed on both sides. Though his initial convictions were without a doubt correct, his methods can never be condoned.

I pray that this political divide between us will not spiral into indescriminate "warfare". Planting the flag of holiness or righteousness upon the highest hill is admirable, but is always polarizing. All the men from Tulsa know this to be true. For them to tell others to expect otherwise is ignorant at best (which is hard to believe" and disingenuous at worst.

[Apprehended]

Apprehended
You are rapidly becoming one of my favorite writers. You do have a way with words!
Excellent insight and spiritual perception. That bit of writing is something we all need to remember and file away for future reference. Operating outside the "laws of the Kingdom" is a warning that should make us all pause and check our hearts.
Raven

Thank you Raven.

We all have a choice. We can go the way of the world, loving it, practicing it and being wholly a part of the world. However, are we not taught to "love not the world, neither the things in the world. For all that is in the world is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and the pride of life?" Is it not in those lusts and that pride, found all disharmony, dischord, which spurious peace is devoid of the heavenly peace.

Except the way of the world (worldliness) be forsaken, there can be no depth of evil in which a movement can descend. It is why we are commanded to come OUT of the World. Baptism in the name of Jesus was suppose to have separated us from the WORLD under a curse passing through the waters of separation from that world into a new world, under a new auspices, a new way, a new life, a new government with a NEW LAW. How then have we been deceived into picking up the craft of Egyptian brick makers? Shall not our taskmasters ever be pleased with our tally? Shall we once more build again THAT which has been destroyed by the Stone hewn out of the mountain, without hands? To build daily which is destroyed nightly, is the futile labor of fools, which is destined to crumble into nothingness together with all who are its practioners.

Perhaps we need to give more attention to that new LAW which is fundamentally that of LOVE...divine love, shown forth in a life according to its principles.

[Apprehended]

Martin Luther admirally stood firm on his conviction of "the just shall live by faith" 500 years ago. He also claimed the moral high ground. However, within just a few years religious warfare erupted in his homeland, claiming the lives of 10's of thousands of innocents. There was bloodshed on both sides. Though his initial convictions were without a doubt correct, his methods can never be condoned.

I pray that this political divide between us will not spiral into indescriminate "warfare". Planting the flag of holiness or righteousness upon the highest hill is admirable, but is always polarizing. All the men from Tulsa know this to be true. For them to tell others to expect otherwise is ignorant at best (which is hard to believe" and disingenuous at worst.

I too pray the same prayer.

However, practically speaking, you have underscored the inevitable. It is the WAY of Cain of which Jude spoke.

Politics, whether it be secular or ecclesiastical, has its beginning from the Garden, with the first and ultimate politician, Cain. He gained his ascendency over his brother by bloodshed. He took the highroad by rendering the answer, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Rather than loving his brother, discharging his responsibility toward his brother by that love, he fell under another law which gained its power from disobedience and the subsequent curse. Cain separated himself from his brother by murder and bloodshed while inwardly absolving himself of all brotherly responsibility toward him.

So is it today. Politically, various factions vye for ascendency which is ultimately seen by spiritual bloodshed in the craft of the politically astute. The politically astute have a clever way of disguising their disgust with oneanother feigning an heavenly peace and love. However inwardly, they GO THE WAY OF CAIN, hating and separating from their brother, having no sense of responsibility while faking the highroad which end can only be seen in the fruit of bitterness, though yet unripened, on both sides of the great divide.

Yes NWPastor...,

Indeed Martin Luther attempted to travel the highroad, but in the end, though the tiara of light crowned his noble brow, he finally subcumed to the ignoblility and LAW of he of whom it is said, was a "murderer from the Genesis."

Shall we all go the way of Cain? Shall we all practice the art of Worldliness? Is there not anyone left who came out of the waters of separation to serve a new Kingdom guided by freedom's holy light of (divne) love? OR, shall we ALL go back to serving our Egyptian taskmasters with our daily tally?

[bloodbought]

The UPC was born out of a desire from within two groups, the PCI and the PCofJC. These groups had, in their infancy, broken away, along with others, from the AOG over doctrinal differences, primarily, Oneness Vs. Trinity. This was proper and right, because the disagreement was one of a foundational doctrinal nature.

However, they did not agree among themselves on everything totally. There were some huge gaps that had to be overlooked in order for these two groups to merge. The feeling that they could do more together than apart was the driving force that compelled them to lay aside their differences and focus on their strengths. The rest is history.

Anytime personalities are brought together, differences are quickly exposed. This is true in building a marriage, a business, a church, or an organization. Any group that breaks away because of disagreements they might have with the current structure will encounter similar issues again. Its the nature of people.

With the formation of a new movement, there is immediately within its body, opposing sides. There will be a liberal side and a conservatiive side. They will have to vote on their disagreements and it will be expected of everyone to respect the "will" of the majority.

There is normally a process by which they can challenge those issues with which they disagree, generally a resolution at next appointed gathering of that body. Its not a perfect system. I know this because I have not always been in the majority on some issues. If it were perfect, I would always be happy with the results.

Eph. 4 instructs us to "endeavor". Jude speaks of "contending." There is a finished product that we should all be focused on, but I also believe God is looking at the "process" of how we respect each other and deal with each other. We would do well to examine how best we can move this powerful gospel, doctrine, salvation, into all the world. It is best served by remaining "Kingdom Minded" which means that I purpose to be a team player. Even if I don't like all the calls that are made.

In all my years of Pastoring, 25 plus, no resolution at any conference, including Tampa, has made me come home and change the way I pastor my church.

I am thankful God saw fit to let me just be on the team. That fact requires me to give my all daily.

I am "bloodbought" and very grateful.

[Apprehended]

The UPC was born out of a desire from within two groups, the PCI and the PCofJC. These groups had, in their infancy, broken away, along with others, from the AOG over doctrinal differences, primarily, Oneness Vs. Trinity. This was proper and right, because the disagreement was one of a foundational doctrinal nature.

However, they did not agree among themselves on everything totally. There were some huge gaps that had to be overlooked in order for these two groups to merge. The feeling that they could do more together than apart was the driving force that compelled them to lay aside their differences and focus on their strengths. The rest is history.

Anytime personalities are brought together, differences are quickly exposed. This is true in building a marriage, a business, a church, or an organization. Any group that breaks away because of disagreements they might have with the current structure will encounter similar issues again. Its the nature of people.

With the formation of a new movement, there is immediately within its body, opposing sides. There will be a liberal side and a conservatiive side. They will have to vote on their disagreements and it will be expected of everyone to respect the "will" of the majority.

There is normally a process by which they can challenge those issues with which they disagree, generally a resolution at next appointed gathering of that body. Its not a perfect system. I know this because I have not always been in the majority on some issues. If it were perfect, I would always be happy with the results.

Eph. 4 instructs us to "endeavor". Jude speaks of "contending." There is a finished product that we should all be focused on, but I also believe God is looking at the "process" of how we respect each other and deal with each other. We would do well to examine how best we can move this powerful gospel, doctrine, salvation, into all the world. It is best served by remaining "Kingdom Minded" which means that I purpose to be a team player. Even if I don't like all the calls that are made.

In all my years of Pastoring, 25 plus, no resolution at any conference, including Tampa, has made me come home and change the way I pastor my church.

I am thankful God saw fit to let me just be on the team. That fact requires me to give my all daily.

I am "bloodbought" and very grateful.

A good post...

I appreciate your sweet, humble disposition here.

Thank you.

[RevBuddy]

The tsunami is not so evident out at sea but quickly becomes manifestly destructive when it comes home to shore, as it is sure to do in rapid and successive waves. The old mama lion may not be on her deathbed as another has claimed it to be, but certainly she has a huge toothache and a thorn in the paw as well.

Apprehended...well said...

If there are those who think the UPCI will not take political action...then, they will be sorely mistaken!!

Look for a particularly swift response at the DISTRICT level...that's where the REAL power lies in the UPCI...an extra-organization in the organization will not be tolerated at the district level...there will be a rapid assessment of those district ministers attempting to hold fellowship with BOTH outfits...and as a result, those that do will be brought under close scrutiny, if not outright pressure and stress to pick one or the other, but NOT BOTH...

I'm not saying such action will be the correct or proper actions...just that it is certain to occur...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[ReformedDave]

They (the Tulsa 6) have now formed a very effective "super-dooper-holiness voting caucus" within the UPCI. One is now left to wonder how things will unravel in light of this supposed high road to greater and stronger holiness stance within the denomination. They are proud to lift the banner higher, to raise the standard of holiness from the mire of Tampa. Certainly, their names will go down in history.

There can be no doubt...the UPCI as a political animal has a huge political quandry on its lap that will not be worked out with a few phone calls and a few letters. The level of debate within the house has now been raised several decibels which is not likely to subside within the foreseeable future. I fear that it will only grow louder.

The tsunami is not so evident out at sea but quickly becomes manifestly destructive when it comes home to shore, as it is sure to do in rapid and successive waves. The old mama lion may not be on her deathbed as another has claimed it to be, but certainly she has a huge toothache and a thorn in the paw as well.

Everyone determined to take the highroad is admirable. Sooooo admirable. But look, in the world of politics, everyone starts out on the highroad but always end up in the ditch, slinging mud. It never fails.

It's the nature of the BEAST. Politics has its roots in the world's governments. World governments have their power derived by conquest or it is created by and has its powers conferred upon it by a greater government which gained its powers by armed revolt or violent conquest. This is the genesis of all politics. Its fruit is politics, the art of compromise accepted by ballot. The root of ecclesiastical government emerge from deep within the soil of the state by which is derives its power to exist.

Politics is the fruit of the tree. It is the way of the world. It is known as worldliness...but people love it. The definition of iniquity is not always sin. Sometimes it is not sin at all, but just plain old lawlessness. In otherwords, it is outside the dominion (kingdom) of God's laws. Anything that operate, has life, have its power, recognition and authority outside the laws of the Kingdom of God is INIQUITOUS. All who repent, God says that he will remember their sins AND iniquity no more. Sins and iniquity are not always the same.

The slick, cool hand of the art of politics is a bloody hand. It is the cause of far more souls lost to eternity than can possibly be saved, even with the finest oratory for the good.

Can you imagine Jesus telling a bunch of preachers who did everything in his name...who called him LORD by revelation, who cast out devils, prophesied in his name, did many wonderful works, obviously had the Holy Ghost and were Oneness...TO DEPART FROM HIM AS WORKERS OF INIQUITY. That blows your mind. How can it be? They were sinless but full of INIQUITY...the way of the world, outside the laws of the Divine Kingdom.

Please don't tell me how annointed are men who are fast, persuasive ecclesiastical operators of the art and science of the politic. That annointing will profit nothing when Jesus says, "Depart from me ye WORKERS of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU." Just another way of saying, "You operated outside the bounds of the laws of the KING-DOM...the DOMinion of God.

Something to think about.

Politics is inherently sinful? Can you Biblically prove that?

[Ferd]

I dont know if I agree with everything stated here Apprehended, but you stated two things that are very perceptive and thought provoking

1. The Tulsa 6 have now formed a very effective "super-dooper-holiness voting caucus" within the UPCI.
2. Politics is the fruit of the tree.

[Apprehended]

Politics is inherently sinful? Can you Biblically prove that?

I didn't say it was sinful.

Had I said it, there would have been no way to biblically prove it.

[ReformedDave]

I didn't say it was sinful.

Had I said it, there would have been no way to biblically prove it.

You did say "It's the nature of the BEAST. Politics has its roots in the world's governments. World governments have their power derived by conquest or it is created by and has its powers conferred upon it by a greater government which gained its powers by armed revolt or violent conquest. This is the genesis of all politics. Its fruit is politics, the art of compromise accepted by ballot. The root of ecclesiastical government emerge from deep within the soil of the state by which is derives its power to exist.

Politics is the fruit of the tree. It is the way of the world. It is known as worldliness...but people love it. The definition of iniquity is not always sin. Sometimes it is not sin at all, but just plain old lawlessness. In otherwords, it is outside the dominion (kingdom) of God's laws. Anything that operate, has life, have its power, recognition and authority outside the laws of the Kingdom of God is INIQUITOUS. All who repent, God says that he will remember their sins AND iniquity no more. Sins and iniquity are not always the same."

If it's outside of the kingdom of God then......

[Apprehended]

Apprehended...well said...

If there are those who think the UPCI will not take political action...then, they will be sorely mistaken!!

Look for a particularly swift response at the DISTRICT level...that's where the REAL power lies in the UPCI...an extra-organization in the organization will not be tolerated at the district level...there will be a rapid assessment of those district ministers attempting to hold fellowship with BOTH outfits...and as a result, those that do will be brought under close scrutiny, if not outright pressure and stress to pick one or the other, but NOT BOTH...

I'm not saying such action will be the correct or proper actions...just that it is certain to occur...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Indeed, there will be that reaction to these Tulsa developments. It will not be pretty.

We are in the WORLD, but we must not be OF the world. Wallowing in politics is the way of the world, yet all powers that be are ordained of God that we may live a quite and peaceful life.

We must pray for those powers that He whom rules in the affairs of men may grant to us a quite and peaceful life. All that disturbs that peace cannot be OF GOD.

[Apprehended]

You did say "It's the nature of the BEAST. Politics has its roots in the world's governments. World governments have their power derived by conquest or it is created by and has its powers conferred upon it by a greater government which gained its powers by armed revolt or violent conquest. This is the genesis of all politics. Its fruit is politics, the art of compromise accepted by ballot. The root of ecclesiastical government emerge from deep within the soil of the state by which is derives its power to exist.

Politics is the fruit of the tree. It is the way of the world. It is known as worldliness...but people love it. The definition of iniquity is not always sin. Sometimes it is not sin at all, but just plain old lawlessness. In otherwords, it is outside the dominion (kingdom) of God's laws. Anything that operate, has life, have its power, recognition and authority outside the laws of the Kingdom of God is INIQUITOUS. All who repent, God says that he will remember their sins AND iniquity no more. Sins and iniquity are not always the same."

If it's outside of the kingdom of God then......

There is a greater kingdom whose interest we must be totally vested in.

Kinghdoms are in conflict..."kingdom againt kingdom..." The kingdom of heaven is in conflict with the kingdoms of this world which will, in the end, come under the dominion of THE Lord and His annointed ones...hopefully, I am one of His annointed ones.

Though we are IN the world, we must seek NOT to be OF, or a part of THIS world.

[ReformedDave]

There is a greater kingdom whose interest we must be totally vested in.

Kinghdoms are in conflict..."kingdom againt kingdom..." The kingdom of heaven is in conflict with the kingdoms of this world which will, in the end, come under the dominion of THE Lord and His annointed ones...hopefully, I am one of His annointed ones.

Though we are IN the world, we must seek NOT to be OF, or a part of THIS world.

Seems that this is similar to the ancient Greek understanding of the human body as being evil. "Politics" in and of itself is not evil. Some men use it in a evil way.....

[RevBuddy]

Apprehended... you're right. These actions will occur, IMHO, because they have historically and consistently occured. Unfortunately, the opportunity and probability for misuse of political power has always been concentrated at the DISTRICT level...

And often, there is little concern by many officials as to the long-term affect of their local decisions...either to the organization or the individuals with whom they are dealing...

[Apprehended]

Seems that this is similar to the ancient Greek understanding of the human body as being evil. "Politics" in and of itself is not evil. Some men use it in a evil way.....

All things have their origin from the (genesis) beginning. It is in the beginning that we see the fruit of the forbidden tree that we (as the human race) were told not to partake of. It was the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

We are inclined to think of the evil portion alone. Yet, it is not evil alone. It was the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil. There was good in the fruit as well. The wisdom of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good AND evil is now is the life stream of all mankind.

Nothing of itself is entirely evil nor is it entirely good. So, it is with mankind. Every man has both. Every man is inherently good...and evil. The warfare of good vs. evil erupted from the garden and continues onward until this day. But, the state of both good and evil is the FALLEN state from which man must be redeemed. Any element of what is evil must be purifed from man by the work of REgeneration by the blood of the cross.

There is more that I would like to say about this. But, enough for now.

Thanks, Dave...

[ReformedDave]

All things have their origin from the (genesis) beginning. It is in the beginning that we see the fruit of the forbidden tree that we (as the human race) were told not to partake of. It was the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

We are inclined to think of the evil portion alone. Yet, it is not evil alone. It was the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil. There was good in the fruit as well. The wisdom of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good AND evil is now is the life stream of all mankind.

Nothing of itself is entirely evil nor is it entirely good. So, it is with mankind. Every man has both. Every man is inherently good...and evil. The warfare of good vs. evil erupted from the garden and continues onward until this day. But, the state of both good and evil is the FALLEN state from which man must be redeemed. Any element of what is evil must be purifed from man by the work of REgeneration by the blood of the cross.

There is more that I would like to say about this. But, enough for now.

Thanks, Dave...

God gave us the use of the world and it depends on us to use His gifts in the way He has prescribed.

[Apprehended]

God gave us the use of the world and it depends on us to use His gifts in the way He has prescribed.

Right...

He has allowed us to use it by default. It was not his original plan.

However, if we choose the good from the tree and refuse the evil, the outcome will be good. Nevertheless, the evil is always present and will always be part and parcel to the good.

"When I would do good, then evil is present." Good AND evil is in the natural lifeline of all the human experience. We must love the good and hate the evil. "LOve not the world, neither the things that are in the world." "...the world will pass away and the lust thereof, but he that DOETH the will of the Father abideth (continually) forever."

Abiding FOREVER is not stipulated to doing the natural good...but rather, DOING the will of the Father.

[ReformedDave]

He has allowed us to use it by default. It was not his original plan.



If you believe in the omniscience and sovereignty of God you should have a problem with this statement.

[Apprehended]

If you believe in the omniscience and sovereignty of God you should have a problem with this statement.

Why?

Since I made the statement, I obviously don't have any such problem.

[ReformedDave]

Why?

Since I made the statement, I obviously don't have any such problem.

God's original plan? You mean that God had a plan that He had to change due to mankind's actions?????

[OP_Carl]

God's original plan? You mean that God had a plan that He had to change due to mankind's actions?????

Go ahead, Dave, tell him what his problem is!

[ReformedDave]

Go ahead, Dave, tell him what his problem is!

Throws a wrench into the sovereignty of God and also sounds like God got surprised by something.

If God is all knowing and sovereign try changing what He already knows from all eternity.

[Apprehended]

God's original plan? You mean that God had a plan that He had to change due to mankind's actions?????

Dave,

from the way you are talking I would think that you might believe in Predestination. I do not.

I believe that God has one plan. THAT plan has never changed. Yet, God has given mankind his own FREE WILL to do has he chooses that has nothing to do with that ONE plan. In the end, as Jesus taught us to pray, "...thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven,..." will surely be realized in the earth just like God's original plan intended it to be.

Anyway, I would not be so inclined to go into a Predestination discussion here if that is what you truly believe. :lol

Say it aint so!

I always enjoy hearing from you, my friend.

[Apprehended]

Go ahead, Dave, tell him what his problem is!

What are you talking about?

[Felicity]

God has given us free will, indeed, but it seems that there are those whose will seems to be only to serve God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength, while others refuse to even acknowledge God let alone give up their will to His.

I don't quite know how to explain that, and I've talked this over with others and they can't quite understand this or explain it to any measure of satisfaction either.

[ReformedDave]

Go ahead, Dave, tell him what his problem is!

Dave,

from the way you are talking I would think that you might believe in Predestination. I do not.

I believe that God has one plan. THAT plan has never changed. Yet, God has given mankind his own FREE WILL to do has he chooses that has nothing to do with that ONE plan. In the end, as Jesus taught us to pray, "...thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven,..." will surely be realized in the earth just like God's original plan intended it to be.

Anyway, I would not be so inclined to go into a Predestination discussion here if that is what you truly believe. :lol

Say it aint so!

I always enjoy hearing from you, my friend.


The "Reformed" portion of my name should give you a hint......

But beyond this, just think for a moment. God has, from all eternity past, known(at least) what everyone will do. Since He knows it He cannot be surprised and everything He wants done WILL be done. Try and change what He already knows will come to pass.

[Apprehended]

The "Reformed" portion of my name should give you a hint......

But beyond this, just think for a moment. God has, from all eternity past, known(at least) what everyone will do. Since He knows it He cannot be surprised and everything He wants done WILL be done. Try and change what He already knows will come to pass.

Aaaaah, yes "Reformed..."

OK...

Dave, I certainly DO believe in the foreknowledge of God. That thought runs throughout the whole bible. He would not be omniscient if he did not know all things...even the end from the beginning.

[ReformedDave]

Aaaaah, yes "Reformed..."

OK...

Dave, I certainly DO believe in the foreknowledge of God. That thought runs throughout the whole bible. He would not be omniscient if he did not know all things...even the end from the beginning.

So He didn't have a plan "B" and we can't change what He already knows will come to pass.

[Apprehended]

The "Reformed" portion of my name should give you a hint......

But beyond this, just think for a moment. God has, from all eternity past, known(at least) what everyone will do. Since He knows it He cannot be surprised and everything He wants done WILL be done. Try and change what He already knows will come to pass.

Forgot to mention...

I do not believe that God has predestinated anyone to go to hell.

The bible says that he is not WILLING that any should perish but ALL come to repentance.

So, if, as you said above, "everyting He wants done WILL be done," you now have a Gordian knot in the Word from your perception.

[Apprehended]

So He didn't have a plan "B" and we can't change what He already knows will come to pass.

No plan B. :lol

His original plan is still His original plan.

[ReformedDave]

Forgot to mention...

I do not believe that God has predestinated anyone to go to hell.

The bible says that he is not WILLING that any should perish but ALL come to repentance.

So, if, as you said above, "everyting He wants done WILL be done," you now have a Gordian knot in the Word from your perception.

Not really. Difficult but not impossible. But suddenly this thread is way off topic.

[ReformedDave]

No plan B. :lol

His original plan is still His original plan.

Didn't you say "He has allowed us to use it by default. It was not his original plan."

[Apprehended]

Not really. Difficult but not impossible. But suddenly this thread is way off topic.

LOL...

Anyway, I appreciate your Reformed remarks.

Interesting indeed. Especially so since this is an Apostolic Pentecostal forum. I know but a very, very few Apostolic Pentecostals who believe as you do. They are VERY rare. :lol

[Felicity]

I believe a person has free will and yet it seems possible for a will to be "set" or "destined" a certain way.

I find it hard to believe in a sovereign God who is not in total control. Either He is or He isn't. He knows the end from the beginning. Even before time began I - me personally - was in the mind of God and in the plan of God. I believe my destiny was set.

Can I decide to walk away from God? Yes. But I've never had any desire and no "will" to do that - never. So ..... in that sense there is no "choice". I simply love and serve God because for me there is no other choice.

[Apprehended]

Didn't you say "He has allowed us to use it by default. It was not his original plan."

Yes, but not his, our own.

[Apprehended]

I believe a person has free will and yet it seems possible for a will to be "set" a certain way.

I find it hard to believe in a sovereign God who is not in total control. Either He is or He isn't. He knows the end from the beginning. Even before time began I - me personally - was in the mind of God and in the plan of God. I believe my destiny was set.

Can I decide to walk away from God? Yes. But I've never had any desire and no "will" to do that - never. So ..... in that sense there is no "choice". I simply love and serve God because for me there is no other choice.


I believe that.

In fact, there are times in the scriptures that God over ruled the will of man. One notable case was that of Pharoah. God hardened his heart...for His own purpose. On the other hand, he changed the heart of Cyrus and even called that heathern His SERVANT.

[ReformedDave]

I believe a person has free will and yet it seems possible for a will to be "set" or "destined" a certain way.

I find it hard to believe in a sovereign God who is not in total control. Either He is or He isn't. He knows the end from the beginning. Even before time began I - me personally - was in the mind of God and in the plan of God. I believe my destiny was set.

Can I decide to walk away from God? Yes. But I've never had any desire and no "will" to do that - never. So ..... in that sense there is no "choice". I simply love and serve God because for me there is no other choice.

We all respond to what we want to do. We have the will to do what we choose. Now the reason we choose what we do.......

[Apprehended]

We all respond to what we want to do. We have the will to do what we choose. Now the reason we choose what we do.......

Some of that reason couldn't be the evil that is present, could it?

[Felicity]

We all respond to what we want to do. We have the will to do what we choose. Now the reason we choose what we do.......Finish that sentence Dave!! Don't leave me hanging!! :ranting

[ReformedDave]

Finish that sentence Dave!! Don't leave me hanging!! :ranting

The reason we choose what we do is that we choose according to our nature. A leopard can't, and in fact doesn't want to, change his spots.

Dave now heads back into his hole and pulls the door shut behind him........

[ReformedDave]

Some of that reason couldn't be the evil that is present, could it?

Correct. Evil is present in the unregenerate. The fall has rendered man morally destitute.

[Felicity]

The reason we choose what we do is that we choose according to our nature. A leopard can't, and in fact doesn't want to, change his spots.

Dave now heads back into his hole and pulls the door shut behind him........Well I believe that!! Come back up out of that hole!

LOL! :)

[OP_Carl]

They (the Tulsa 6) have now formed a very effective "super-dooper-holiness voting caucus" within the UPCI. ... There can be no doubt...the UPCI as a political animal has a huge political quandry on its lap that will not be worked out with a few phone calls and a few letters. The level of debate within the house has now been raised several decibels which is not likely to subside within the foreseeable future. I fear that it will only grow louder.

...

It's the nature of the BEAST. Politics has its roots in the world's governments. World governments have their power derived by conquest or it is created by and has its powers conferred upon it by a greater government which gained its powers by armed revolt or violent conquest. This is the genesis of all politics. Its fruit is politics, the art of compromise accepted by ballot. The root of ecclesiastical government emerge from deep within the soil of the state by which is derives its power to exist.

...

Can you imagine Jesus telling a bunch of preachers who did everything in his name...who called him LORD by revelation, who cast out devils, prophesied in his name, did many wonderful works, obviously had the Holy Ghost and were Oneness...TO DEPART FROM HIM AS WORKERS OF INIQUITY. That blows your mind. How can it be? They were sinless but full of INIQUITY...the way of the world, outside the laws of the Divine Kingdom.

Please don't tell me how annointed are men who are fast, persuasive ecclesiastical operators of the art and science of the politic. That annointing will profit nothing when Jesus says, "Depart from me ye WORKERS of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU." Just another way of saying, "You operated outside the bounds of the laws of the KING-DOM...the DOMinion of God.

Something to think about.

Your polemic indicts both the Tulsa 6 and the general board of the UPC.

The tsunami is not so evident out at sea but quickly becomes manifestly destructive when it comes home to shore, as it is sure to do in rapid and successive waves. The old mama lion may not be on her deathbed as another has claimed it to be, but certainly she has a huge toothache and a thorn in the paw as well. Use the wounded lion as a temporary seawall. :killinme

Politics is the fruit of the tree. It is the way of the world. It is known as worldliness...but people love it. The definition of iniquity is not always sin. Sometimes it is not sin at all, but just plain old lawlessness. In otherwords, it is outside the dominion (kingdom) of God's laws. Anything that operate, has life, have its power, recognition and authority outside the laws of the Kingdom of God is INIQUITOUS. All who repent, God says that he will remember their sins AND iniquity no more. Sins and iniquity are not always the same.

The slick, cool hand of the art of politics is a bloody hand. It is the cause of far more souls lost to eternity than can possibly be saved, even with the finest oratory for the good.

Let me see if I am following this . . .

Politics isn't sin.
Politics is iniquity.
The hand of politics is bloody.
The blood on the "hands" of political players isn't necessarily sin, but iniquity

. . . even though bloody hands have been a metaphor for sin throughout the ages.

See, now I'm confused again.

[Apprehended]

Your polemic indicts both the Tulsa 6 and the general board of the UPC.

Use the wounded lion as a temporary seawall. :killinme



Let me see if I am following this . . .

Politics isn't sin.
Politics is iniquity.
The hand of politics is bloody.
The blood on the "hands" of political players isn't necessarily sin, but iniquity

. . . even though bloody hands have been a metaphor for sin throughout the ages.

See, now I'm confused again.

I suspect that you will probably STAY that way.