WWPF Dues

[Timmy]

In a couple of threads, I pointed out something that struck me as odd: that the $60/month dues for WWPF membership can come out of a member's personal tithe.

I will support the World Pentecostal Fellowship with my monthly dues contributed on a quarterly basis. This amount may come from my personal tithe, the remainder of which may also go to WPF or elsewhere in the work of God.

This is from their "Articles of Faith": http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=29

So, the member has no out-of-pocket expense -- the member's church (or whatever he pays tithes to) foots the bill. Does this raise any flags, with you guys? Is it normal and acceptable for clubs like this to give their members permission to divert part of their tithes to the club?

[Discerner]

Just think of how many little old ladies SS checks helped sponsor attendance at this thing. I am sure most of the churches footed the bill for their ministers to attend. I wonder how that would go over in some of the churches that were represented there.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

In a couple of threads, I pointed out something that struck me as odd: that the $60/month dues for WWPF membership can come out of a member's personal tithe.



This is from their "Articles of Faith": http://www.worldwidepf.com/page.php?ID=29

So, the member has no out-of-pocket expense -- the member's church (or whatever he pays tithes to) foots the bill. Does this raise any flags, with you guys? Is it normal and acceptable for clubs like this to give their members permission to divert part of their tithes to the club?

Timmy, many men use Personal Tithe (a tithe on their ministry income) to pay dues. Not all tithe to the District but use that fund for "ministry". Many men have to pay more into a church than they get out. Home Missionaries with $10 offerings and $600 a month power bills certainly cannot afford some luxuries.

What pray tell, are you suggesting here?

[MissBrattified]

Once a pastor is paid a salary, that money is his to support his family and do with as he sees fit, just as your paycheck is yours once it is in your hands. If he wants to use part of his salary to join an organization or club that is his business, and there is nothing unethical about it. At least, not in reference to what money he is using to join. Now, if he takes money out of the church general fund, then it would be somewhat the business of the entire congregation. And of course, the church may have an interest in what organizations he belongs to. But it shouldn't have anything to do with paying dues out of HIS own pocket.

[rgcraig]

Just think of how many little old ladies SS checks helped sponsor attendance at this thing. I am sure most of the churches footed the bill for their ministers to attend. I wonder how that would go over in some of the churches that were represented there.

Some pastors went and their churches are clueless......

[1992]

Some pastors went and their churches are clueless......

I didn't know my pastor was going until after he was already gone.

[Timmy]

What pray tell, are you suggesting here?

Two things:

1. Just wondering if this arrangement is unusual, for an Apostolic fellowship type of thing. Does the UPCI itself, e.g., allow members to allocate part of their tithes for UPCI dues?

To me, it seems a bit presumptuous to start up some association/fellowship/club, and give its members permission to reroute some of the money they would normally give to, say, a local church. If that's considered normal for these kinds of thing, fine.

(Hmm. Maybe I should start a club! :happydance)

2. People have kinda griped about the dues, and suggested that it would prevent some from joining, for economic reasons. But if it's a net zero out-of-pocket expense, that doesn't make sense. Of course, maybe some folks would not feel right about deducting the dues from their tithe, so it would be an additional expense.

[Timmy]

Once a pastor is paid a salary, that money is his to support his family and do with as he sees fit, just as your paycheck is yours once it is in your hands. If he wants to use part of his salary to join an organization or club that is his business, and there is nothing unethical about it. At least, not in reference to what money he is using to join. Now, if he takes money out of the church general fund, then it would be somewhat the business of the entire congregation. And of course, the church may have an interest in what organizations he belongs to. But it shouldn't have anything to do with paying dues out of HIS own pocket.

I thought pastors generally pay tithes on their salaries, either back into the church or to the district, or whatever. Is that not the case in OP circles? I think most AG pastors do that. Dunno for sure.

[MissBrattified]

I thought pastors generally pay tithes on their salaries, either back into the church or to the district, or whatever. Is that not the case in OP circles? I think most AG pastors do that. Dunno for sure.

Hopefully all pastors pay tithes. :)

My point was, you made it seem unethical that a pastor would use money that he gets from the church (e.g., his salary/tithes) to pay for a membership in the WPF. If that was your point, then I disagree with it.

Are you saying it is unethical if he uses tithes to support the WPF instead of the UPCI? (Actually, that would be "in addition to") OR, are you suggesting that it would only be wrong for him to use the tithes he would normally pay into the church or district for that purpose?

My Dad paid his tithes into a separate church fund and used it to pay evangelists, give missionaries a little extra, etc. He never paid it to the district, because he didn't trust them to put it to good use.

[Timmy]

Hopefully all pastors pay tithes. :)

My point was, you made it seem unethical that a pastor would use money that he gets from the church (e.g., his salary/tithes) to pay for a membership in the WPF. If that was your point, then I disagree with it.

Are you saying it is unethical if he uses tithes to support the WPF instead of the UPCI? (Actually, that would be "in addition to") OR, are you suggesting that it would only be wrong for him to use the tithes he would normally pay into the church or district for that purpose?

My Dad paid his tithes into a separate church fund and used it to pay evangelists, give missionaries a little extra, etc. He never paid it to the district, because he didn't trust them to put it to good use.

I was asking about the WPF itself. Is it acceptable or common for an organization to tell its members that it's OK to divert some of their tithes to itself? You're right about the members themselves, of course. They can allocate their tithes however they see fit, and if they consider the WWPF to be part of the Lord's work, then fine. But the organization itself bringing up the idea just seems a bit self-serving.

[MissBrattified]

I was asking about the WPF itself. Is it acceptable or common for an organization to tell its members that it's OK to divert some of their tithes to itself? You're right about the members themselves, of course. They can allocate their tithes however they see fit, and if they consider the WWPF to be part of the Lord's work, then fine. But the organization itself bringing up the idea just seems a bit self-serving.

Okay, I see what you're asking. That's what I get for skimming. :D

[Sam]

Back in the mid nineteen seventies I was elected youth leader for this section of the Ohio District that I live in. This was with the ALJC. One condition was that I had to take out a license with the ALJC in order to hold the office. I don't remember what the dues were at the time but I asked my pastor if I could take my dues out of my tithe. He told me I could. Another young man asked his pastor the same question and was told that he could not because his tithe was for his pastor.

From what I understand, licensing with the WWPF is only done at the local church level i.e. a minister receives a license (and I would assume credentials or ordination) from the local church. Who would sign the license for the pastor of that church or who would lay hands on him/her? --some district official or member of a hierarchy? After receiving license/credentials from the local church, then $60 per month which would ordinarily go to that local church would then go to the organization headquarters. This would be $60 for each minister licensed in that congregation. This could cause financial difficulty for a local congregation. Also, what if the pastor was one who received all the tithes and handled them at his/her discretion. He/she might not agree that $60 of tithes that he/she usually got would now go to an organization.

[Hoovie]

I may be wrong... but I do not think most pastors tithe to tye local church. So if some of the socalled "Tithe" funds are used for dues, who cares?

[pelathais]

Often a minister's credentialing dues are included as part of his salary but paid by the church directly. This way the minister's dues are paid before taxes are calculated on his salary and saves the church a bit when it comes to paying his Social Security tax and Medicare. Other expenses are often allowed to be deducted before tax as well such as health care premiums and so forth.

Most districts in the UPC have a "Financial Plan" that all ministers are expected to follow. Agreement to follow the district's financial plan is part of the Manual. Theoretically, you can loose your license for failing to participate- but that ends up being something of a joke, depending on where you're at.

Most districts require that a minister pay a minimum dues amount and 10% of all ministerial income. If this were actually enforced many of our districts would be rather wealthy. The annual district conference reports are often a time of uncomfortable silence as the district secretary gently reminds the brethren of the district's financial plan. Then closed folders are passed out with the individual report of contributions made by each preacher.

When I was in the ministry full time I was told by the church that employed me that they would take care of all my dues and expenses. My annual report from the district never reflected anything resembling a tithe. If we had held this same standard up for the saints in the church we would have all starved. Thankfully the saints knew what 10% meant.

[Draw4Tacos]

Believe me, the "tithing income" received by the WWPF, if actually paid in full by each member, will far exceed the $60 per month collected as dues.