Convictions or Politics? A Specific Example.

[timlan2057]

Now I'm not so egotistical as to think my thoughts should be isolated on a new thread, but this post got buried in "Tulsa Day 2" and I think it may be interesting to some - at least it may deserve a little perusal.

JrLa said this in response to a post of Steadfast's where he was gushing about how these great Tulsa brethren were "forced" to do what they did because their conservative convictions were being trampled upon:

JrLa, you have a lot to learn but you expressed yourself well here:

Of course, there are times when your conviction outwieghs your committment to unity. I understand that. It is just that these men are not motivated by simple conviction. This organization or Fellowship has men on their general committee that ARE NOT conservative. I know for a fact. Their churches are the most liberal in the area!



I then said the following:




Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

[Nahum]

Why am I not surprised?

I wonder how ** will deal with this obvious love for worldly sports? I noticed the AOF of the WWPF comes out like an angry bull against sports.

Sounds like some lines and fences need to be repaired over there.

[StMark]

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.


You really think so Tim??

what makes you know this for a fact

[Mr. Steinway]

Why am I not surprised?

I wonder how ** will deal with this obvious love for worldly sports? I noticed the AOF of the WWPF comes out like an angry bull against sports.

Sounds like some lines and fences need to be repaired over there.

Maybe some things like anti-sports was put in the AOF to appease the ultra-conservatives. Maybe some plan on ignoring parts of the AOF like they do in the UPCI! :lol

[timlan2057]

You really think so Tim??

what makes you know this for a fact

Uh ... you DID read the preceding couple-hundred-or-so paragraphs?

[Nahum]

Maybe some things like anti-sports was put in the AOF to appease the ultra-conservatives. Maybe some plan on ignoring parts of the AOF like they do in the UPCI! :lol

Surely you jest?!

[StMark]

Uh ... you DID read the preceding couple-hundred-or-so paragraphs?




Weeeeeeeellllll................................... ................. :happydance

[Maple Leaf]

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

Like begets like.

Humans beget humans.

Horses beget horses.

Hazelwood begat Tulsa.

The Tulsa Six did not learn their politics from the AOG.

(This thread is too interesting not to bump)

[MissBrattified]

Like begets like.

Humans beget humans.

Horses beget horses.

Hazelwood begat Tulsa.

The Tulsa Six did not learn their politics from the AOG.

(This thread is too interesting not to bump)

Now this is a very good point.

[Felicity]

Like begets like.

Humans beget humans.

Horses beget horses.

Hazelwood begat Tulsa.

The Tulsa Six did not learn their politics from the AOG.

(This thread is too interesting not to bump):whistle

[StMark]

Like begets like.

Humans beget humans.

Horses beget horses.

Hazelwood begat Tulsa.

The Tulsa Six did not learn their politics from the AOG.

(This thread is too interesting not to bump)

So now you are pointing the finger back at the UPC for creating this whole situation ?

[freeatlast]

UPCI = politics WwPF = politics

Jesus Christ = priceless

Nothing new under the sun. Tuls is just more of the Same Old Same Old....point is .....














it's getting OLD

[Maple Leaf]

So now you are pointing the finger back at the UPC for creating this whole situation ?

As far as I know, both sides of the controversy were carrying cards with Bro. Haney's signature on them a year ago.

The Tulsa Six are/were UPC. (And the Tulsa 49)

The letter writers opposing Tulsa are UPC.

Most of the ministers involved are/were UPC.

Who will we point the finger at?

The Southern Baptists?

[StMark]

As far as I know, both sides of the controversy were carrying cards with Bro. Haney's signature on them a year ago.

The Tulsa Six are/were UPC. (And the Tulsa 49)

The letter writers opposing Tulsa are UPC.

Most of the ministers involved are/were UPC.

Who will we point the finger at?

The Southern Baptists?

The southern Baptist have had their share of splits too.Have you ever seen the number of Baptist groups there are? I think it's just human nature. I say that to point out that these types of splits are not isolated just to the UPC as if their system alone creates the problems.

furthermore,did the UPC split off in the manner that WPF is doing ?

[Dan]

WWPF stands for W_______ Wins POWER Finally!

Anybody with two-eyed pig sense can see that it is all about power and politics!

I will remain UPC and advertise on TV. :)

[StMark]

WWPF stands for W_______ Wins POWER Finally!

Anybody with two-eyed pig sense can see that it is all about power and politics!

I will remain UPC and advertise on TV. :)



YIKES!!! Nooo you didn't just post that :ouch:ouch:ouch

[Dan]

YIKES!!! Nooo you didn't just post that :ouch:ouch:ouch

Didn't call any names. Just the truth!

[Dan]

Not the 1st time I have seen such actions by those who are disgruntled. I have never cared for the "I'll take my ball and go home" attitude.

Tim has it right! I live in LA. I know!

[Mrs. LPW]

WWPF stands for W_______ Wins POWER Finally!

Anybody with two-eyed pig sense can see that it is all about power and politics!

I will remain UPC and advertise on TV. :)

Are you really going to advertise?

[Dan]

YIKES!!! Nooo you didn't just post that :ouch:ouch:ouch

Are you really going to advertise?

Already have some and fixing to do it bigger than ever!
Paid our church off! Ready to go!

[Felicity]

Do politics have to be "learned"?

[jrLA]

From your previous post....JrLa, you have a lot to learn but you expressed yourself well here.


Tim- We all have alot to learn! Don't be little me please! Jr does not mean Junior!

[Maple Leaf]

Do politics have to be "learned"?

Yup, politics are learned.

Some learn from St. Paul and others from Machiavelli.

The only bad religious politics are the other guy's.

[timlan2057]

From your previous post....JrLa, you have a lot to learn but you expressed yourself well here.


Tim- We all have alot to learn! Don't be little me please! Jr does not mean Junior!

Son ... no one is "belittling" you.

I have no idea what "JR" meant and wasn't implying it meant "Junior."

I've walked a few more miles and a few more years than you in Louisiana, Texas and fellowship-wide UPC men, politics, districts, and happenings.

That's all I'm saying.

It doesn't mean I'm belittling you or anyone else.

[Felicity]

Yup, politics are learned.

Some learn from St. Paul and others from Machiavelli.

The only bad religious politics are the other guy's.Maybe you're right Maple Leaf sir.

I guess I was thinking that the desire to be in control is kind of endemic to a whole segment of the human race, and that people who are like that maneuver and play games to achieve their purpose and have since the beginning of time.

Politics are often referred to as a game. Maybe there are aspects of the game that can be learned and skills honed in order to achieve the desired results.

I'm a mere novice and learn at the feet of you here who are more educated and knowledgeable. ;) :D

[jrLA]

Son ... no one is "belittling" you.

I have no idea what "JR" meant and wasn't implying it meant "Junior."

I've walked a few more miles and a few more years than you in Louisiana, Texas and fellowship-wide UPC men, politics, districts, and happenings.

That's all I'm saying.

It doesn't mean I'm belittling you or anyone else.

I hear what you're saying. I am not being rude, but I am not your son. Please have some respect sir!

:happydance

[Maple Leaf]

I hear what you're saying. I am not being rude, but I am not your son. Please have some respect sir!

:happydance

When you get to be as old as Timlan you call everybody "son."

Usually because you can't remember anybody's name.

[jrLA]

When you get to be as old as Timlan you call everybody "son."

Usually because you can't remember anybody's name.

Sorry, but I dpn't like being spoken to like that, Where I am from that can be down talk.

[Mr. Steinway]

When you get to be as old as Timlan you call everybody "son."

Usually because you can't remember anybody's name.
:lol

[Barb]

Sorry, but I dpn't like being spoken to like that, Where I am from that can be down talk.

jr, I do it, too...I call StM and SoCali "son" and mean nothing by it. It's just an word/expression and not meant as a putdown.

[Mrs. LPW]

Maybe you're right Maple Leaf sir.

I guess I was thinking that the desire to be in control is kind of endemic to a whole segment of the human race, and that people who are like that maneuver and play games to achieve their purpose and have since the beginning of time.

Politics are often referred to as a game. Maybe there are aspects of the game that can be learned and skills honed in order to achieve the desired results.

I'm a mere novice and learn at the feet of you here who are more educated and knowledgeable. ;) :D

I agree. That desire to control is in all of us. The desire to be 'someone' is in all of us.

[Hoovie]

Maybe some things like anti-sports was put in the AOF to appease the ultra-conservatives. Maybe some plan on ignoring parts of the AOF like they do in the UPCI! :lol

Surely you jest?!

Like begets like.

Humans beget humans.

Horses beget horses.

Hazelwood begat Tulsa.

The Tulsa Six did not learn their politics from the AOG.

(This thread is too interesting not to bump)


Zactly!

[RevBuddy]

Come on, jrLA...grow up...PAAAAALEEEEEEEESE...

[timlan2057]

I hear what you're saying. I am not being rude, but I am not your son. Please have some respect sir!




:ohplease

[MissBrattified]

I hear what you're saying. I am not being rude, but I am not your son. Please have some respect sir!

:happydance

You're overreacting, jrLA. :ohplease

[Sam]

Sorry, but I dpn't like being spoken to like that, Where I am from that can be down talk.


Tim was speaking to you as an elder.
His years of experience have earned him that designation.

[Mrs. LPW]

You're overreacting, jrLA. :ohplease

That could be... but no one likes to be told they have a lot to learn from someone who doesn't know them. Just seeing it from the other side.

[RevBuddy]

Mrs. LPW...you have a lot to learn??? :happydance

[Sam]

jr, I do it, too...I call StM and SoCali "son" and mean nothing by it. It's just an word/expression and not meant as a putdown.

Just like I refer to "middle aged" people as kids. I said something to my cardiologist a couple weeks ago and referred to her as a "kid." When she questioned the term I told her I used it because she is the age of my kids (I have 5 children who range in age from 41 to 48) and she agreed. It was not meant disrespectfully.

[StMark]

Jr, Tim's cool people - you're safe

[Mrs. LPW]

:smack brother let me pray for you!!!

;)


Mrs. LPW...you have a lot to learn??? :happydance

[Barb]

:smack brother let me pray for you!!!

;)LOL!!

I once heard a preach say, "Some of y'all don't need to get in the prayer line...you need to be in a slappin' line!!"

[Mrs. LPW]

LOL!!

I once heard a preach say, "Some of y'all don't need to get in the prayer line...you need to be in a slappin' line!!"

:toofunny

[RevBuddy]

Mrs. LPW...ok...please go get the oil, first...I want the anointing oil, then the heavy hand on my forehead...

[Mrs. LPW]

Mrs. LPW...ok...please go get the oil, first...I want the anointing oil, then the heavy hand on my forehead...

No, that will make the heavy hand slide right off! (haven't you ever seen those fighters who grease themselves so the punches won't stick?)

Has anyone ever had someone pray for you and nearly push your head into your lower back? That's pleasant.

I remember one time I was standing in the alter at camp... just me and Jesus.. and all of the sudden someone grabbed my arm and started yanking.. at first I thought it was some overzealous Bible School student who wanted to pray me through to the Holy Ghost. But my arm was about to become detached from my shoulder so I opened my yes and it was this older man from my church and he was literally pulling me over to pray with someone else. I could hardly believe it. He just came up to me with my arms up in the air and my eyes closed and started yanking!
Of course I was no good to pray for the other person, I was too ticked off HA.

[Cindy]

LOL!!

I once heard a preach say, "Some of y'all don't need to get in the prayer line...you need to be in a slappin' line!!"

Preach it........ I still say God might just reach down one day and smack some people upside the head.








:D

[Cindy]

Has anyone ever had someone pray for you and nearly push your head into your lower back? That's pleasant.



Yes, that happened to me once when I went to church with my oldest sister. Faye A. Spencer pushed on my head so hard I had a sore neck for a few days.

[RevBuddy]

Mrs. LPW...

that'll teach you to lift up your hands and pray sincerely...you become a target of opportunity for a "nut," as my Dad so aptly described them...

[Maple Leaf]

Sorry, but I dpn't like being spoken to like that, Where I am from that can be down talk.

Now you've got me wondering just how young you really are.:nod

[RevDWW]

Politics is a natural instinct. Watch kids as they work out the "pecking order" and then as they via for friendships and position in the "inner circle".

Politics is not something that is learned, but playing the game better is.

[Michael Phelps]

Now I'm not so egotistical as to think my thoughts should be isolated on a new thread, but this post got buried in "Tulsa Day 2" and I think it may be interesting to some - at least it may deserve a little perusal.

JrLa said this in response to a post of Steadfast's where he was gushing about how these great Tulsa brethren were "forced" to do what they did because their conservative convictions were being trampled upon:

JrLa, you have a lot to learn but you expressed yourself well here:



I then said the following:




Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

Agreed.

I've always struggled with the fact that there are bylaws that many of our preachers do not agree with, and yet they stay in the organization and do their own thing. There are bylaws that I didn't abide by when I was licensed, such as allowing my youth group and family to go to amusement parks, bowling, county fairs, play sports in school, etc., which are all strongly condemned under the infamous "worldly entertainment" umbrella.

However, I didn't leave the UPC because of my disagreement, and I was never aware that another pastor left the UPC because he DID believe in those things, and yet some of his counterparts let down on those sacred bylaws.

We all just learned to live together.

So, what makes TV so different? There is nothing in the new bylaw that says a pastor HAS to advertise on TV, there are many who are going to stay in the organization and fellowship those who advertise, or maybe they will choose to NOT fellowship those brethren, I don't know, but either way they're staying.


Here's my two cents, Tim - there are quite a few brethren who have been discontent for a long time, and they've finally got a cause that's important enough to make the move now. It would be hard to rally the troops to leave the UPC over amusement parks or wedding rings, but now you're dealing with the sacred cow- television- and the time is right to strike now. There's finally a CAUSE that's large enough to provide the leverage.

Just my humble opinion.

[Esther]

Agreed.

I've always struggled with the fact that there are bylaws that many of our preachers do not agree with, and yet they stay in the organization and do their own thing. There are bylaws that I didn't abide by when I was licensed, such as allowing my youth group and family to go to amusement parks, bowling, county fairs, play sports in school, etc., which are all strongly condemned under the infamous "worldly entertainment" umbrella.

However, I didn't leave the UPC because of my disagreement, and I was never aware that another pastor left the UPC because he DID believe in those things, and yet some of his counterparts let down on those sacred bylaws.

We all just learned to live together.

So, what makes TV so different? There is nothing in the new bylaw that says a pastor HAS to advertise on TV, there are many who are going to stay in the organization and fellowship those who advertise, or maybe they will choose to NOT fellowship those brethren, I don't know, but either way they're staying.


Here's my two cents, Tim - there are quite a few brethren who have been discontent for a long time, and they've finally got a cause that's important enough to make the move now. It would be hard to rally the troops to leave the UPC over amusement parks or wedding rings, but now you're dealing with the sacred cow- television- and the time is right to strike now. There's finally a CAUSE that's large enough to provide the leverage.

Just my humble opinion.

That is what I don't get about this either. It is an option not a command. Furthermore, no one has even given it time to say this is a bad decision or good decision.

It is NOT about TV in my opinion.

:TulsaTime:

[Sherri]

The issue is never the issue; the issue is always CONTROL (John Maxwell).

[Raven]

The issue is never the issue; the issue is always CONTROL (John Maxwell).
That's not about right that is right! Control.
I have two very close friends on both "sides" and I'm afraid it has come down to who is going to blink first. Neither one is known to give up whether it is racquet ball or Monopoly.

[OfInterest]

That is so true.

[TrmptPraise]

I just want everyone to know that even though I passed over into the "more than conquers" age this past year (thats so uplifting), you can still call me son. I will take no offense...cause my poppa can still whoop your poppa! :happydance

[OP_Carl]

I don't like anybody other than mom or dad to call me 'son,' either.

I'll take it alright from older saints I've been close to for years, the kind of folks you would like to adopt as a second set of parents, but coming from a faceless stranger on the internet I would interpret it as desultory just as jrLa has.

I don't care how old or well respected a man is, if he calls me "son" he's saying something unkind about my mother.

[TrmptPraise]

I don't like anybody other than mom or dad to call me 'son,' either.

I'll take it alright from older saints I've been close to for years, the kind of folks you would like to adopt as a second set of parents, but coming from a faceless stranger on the internet I would interpret it as desultory just as jrLa has.

I don't care how old or well respected a man is, if he calls me "son" he's saying something unkind about my mother.

I agree with you from the faceless stranger standpoint. I would take offense to that as well. But if you know tim and jrla, you also know that they are not strangers to each other. They don't see eye to eye on everything and perhaps that is where this reaction to being called "son" is coming from. I might be off base, but thats just my observations.

[OP_Carl]

Don't know them, don't know anybody on this board, Brother Epley is the only one I've met. I was just throwing out my 2 cents in a generic fashion.

[jrLA]

That could be... but no one likes to be told they have a lot to learn from someone who doesn't know them. Just seeing it from the other side.

Thanks Mrs. LPW.

I appoligize if I seemed to overreact...but that is exactly how I took the statement. I just do not let people talk down to me...I used to be a door mat, just got smart about it. That's all. No disrespect meant.

So everyone...relax. :happydance

[jrLA]

Tim was speaking to you as an elder.
His years of experience have earned him that designation.

Sorry Sam....I have pastored folks lots older than Tim...Wouldn't let them say it either. Just me!


:winkgrin

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Jr, Tim's cool people - you're safe

you tell 'em "kid"

[Praxeas]

Sorry, but I dpn't like being spoken to like that, Where I am from that can be down talk.
Well...at least he didn't call you girly :girlytantrum............:toofunny

[Praxeas]

Like begets like.

Humans beget humans.

Horses beget horses.

Hazelwood begat Tulsa.

The Tulsa Six did not learn their politics from the AOG.

(This thread is too interesting not to bump)
Let's follow this "logic" though to it's conclusion.... who begot Hazelwood? Eventually you are gonna lead back to Springfield.

[Who]

I don't like anybody other than mom or dad to call me 'son,' either.

I'll take it alright from older saints I've been close to for years, the kind of folks you would like to adopt as a second set of parents, but coming from a faceless stranger on the internet I would interpret it as desultory just as jrLa has.

I don't care how old or well respected a man is, if he calls me "son" he's saying something unkind about my mother.

Can we call ya squirt?

[OP_Carl]

Can we call ya squirt?

At the rate I'm losing weight, you may HAVE TO! :toofunny

[Apprehended]

Now I'm not so egotistical as to think my thoughts should be isolated on a new thread, but this post got buried in "Tulsa Day 2" and I think it may be interesting to some - at least it may deserve a little perusal.

JrLa said this in response to a post of Steadfast's where he was gushing about how these great Tulsa brethren were "forced" to do what they did because their conservative convictions were being trampled upon:

JrLa, you have a lot to learn but you expressed yourself well here:



I then said the following:




Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

Thanks Tim...

One is left to wonder, really. Is it truly about CONVICTIONS or is it truly all about POLITICS, pure and simple.

You have give us things to ponder. How deeply can we really ponder these things is determined by the depth of experience on one hand and the depth of spiritual exercise of prayer and in the Word of God on the other hand.

I would hope that we would all choose the latter, spending our time "watch ye therefore and pray..." for the sound of the cry at midnight shall suddenly break through the sleeping night.

[Felicity]

Thanks Tim...

One is left to wonder, really. Is it truly about CONVICTIONS or is it truly all about POLITICS, pure and simple.

You have give us things to ponder. How deeply can we really ponder these things is determined by the depth of experience on one hand and the depth of spiritual exercise of prayer and in the Word of God on the other hand.

I would hope that we would all choose the latter, spending our time "watch ye therefore and pray..." for the sound of the cry at midnight shall suddenly break through the sleeping night.**thumbsup**

[Apprehended]

**thumbsup**

Thanks for the thumbsup Felicity.

I started a thread entitled, "Body-Politic and the way of Lawlessness." I seem to be getting very few thumbsup there. I wonder why, OOOOOH, I wonder WHY?

[Nahum]

Like begets like.

Humans beget humans.

Horses beget horses.

Hazelwood begat Tulsa.

The Tulsa Six did not learn their politics from the AOG.

(This thread is too interesting not to bump)


OMG. this is AN EXCELLENT point!

Bravo!

[Esther]

Sorry Sam....I have pastored folks lots older than Tim...Wouldn't let them say it either. Just me!


:winkgrin

Sorry to offend but hopefully as you mature you will have a better understanding and realize you were NOT being talked down too. :happydance

[jrLA]

Sorry to offend but hopefully as you mature you will have a better understanding and realize you were NOT being talked down too.

:itsover:ignore

[Melody]

Now I'm not so egotistical as to think my thoughts
I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?
.

stone thrower? I didn't say one thing against anything other than the fact that there was numerous photos one being just two weeks before congress that shows considerably more than bare shoulders. There wasn't one thing said against her. Thank you.

and you aren't throwing stones? calling annointed men of God neanderthals?

do unto others?

please!