Is Obama's Pastor

[Praxeas]

I have heard others suggest Obama's Pastor is a racist and his church, an afro centric church, is racist.

Being Afro-Centric is not necessarily racist though. However I find these comments disturbing

"Black women are being raped daily in Darfur, Sudan (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59887#), in the Congo and in Sub-Saharan Africa. That doesn't make news," Wright said in the August 2005 edition of Trumpet Magazine, a publication of his Trinity United Church of Christ.


But, "One 18-year-old white girl from Alabama gets drunk on a graduation trip to Aruba, goes off and 'gives it up' while in a foreign country, and that stays in the news for months!" he added. "Maybe I am missing something!"

"In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01," he wrote on page 7. "White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just 'disappeared,' as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns."

Obama says he is "proud" of Wright and values their 20-year friendship.
Though Wright has nurtured Obama's political career as a close adviser and mentor, the Democrat presidential (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59887#) hopeful says they don't agree on everything. Wright married Obama and baptized his daughters.

"He brings a perspective that is helpful and honest," Wright said. "Minister Farrakhan will be remembered as one of the 20th and 21st century giants of the African-American religious experience."
Wright then held Farrakhan up as a pillar of "integrity."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59887

[TrmptPraise]

I heard a lot of these quotes last week and must say, most disturbed me. To Obama's credit, I heard it reported in the mainstream press that he is distancing himself from his pastor because of these statements. I recall also hearing that Pastor Wright was supposed to be on stage with Obama when he announced his candidacy and was glaringly absent. Supposedly a last minute decision to scratch him from the announcement.

[Praxeas]

I heard a lot of these quotes last week and must say, most disturbed me. To Obama's credit, I heard it reported in the mainstream press that he is distancing himself from his pastor because of these statements. I recall also hearing that Pastor Wright was supposed to be on stage with Obama when he announced his candidacy and was glaringly absent. Supposedly a last minute decision to scratch him from the announcement.
The only thing I heard is he distanced himself from "The Honorable Minister Farrakhan"

[TrmptPraise]

The only thing I heard is he distanced himself from "The Honorable Minister Farrakhan"

Apparently, Sean Hannity had the Reverend Wright on his TV show recently. I heard excerpts from that interview on his radio program last week. I am strictly quoting from what I heard there. Kind of like Thad:toofunny

[Scott Hutchinson]

Black Supremacy White Supremacy all sin.All of these teachings are hogwash.

[JaneEyre]

FYI


Barack Obama is a member of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. Its minister, and Obama's spiritual adviser, is the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. In 1982, the church launched Trumpet Newsmagazine; Wright's daughters serve as publisher and executive editor. Every year, the magazine makes awards in various categories. Last year, it gave the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to a man it said "truly epitomized greatness." That man is Louis Farrakhan.

[Music4Jesus]

Let's just hope he wins as the democratic nominee, so all can be exposed afterwards and the repulicans win.

[JaneEyre]

I think if he wins as the Democratic nominee, he WILL be our next president.

[Apprehended]

I think if he wins as the Democratic nominee, he WILL be our next president.

It would be hard to think of anything any more disgusting.

[George]

I think if he wins as the Democratic nominee, he WILL be our next president.

I think you are right. Since republicans are not fairing well, they might be smart to vote hillary at the primary to guarantee her as the democratic nominee.

[StMark]

I think you are right. Since republicans are not fairing well, they might be smart to vote hillary at the primary to guarantee her as the democratic nominee.

You're on to something. Even a lot of white folks are going fro him which has come as a shock to me.

I don't know if you all heard but just over the holidays,the church that Barak attends, their choir director was murdered by some Jealous lover.
someone sent me the news clips from Chicago. his church openly accepts gays and anything goes

also, I really do believe that Barak is an undercover muslim which scares me worse then hillary and bill

[OfInterest]

It is amazing how these so called "churches" can embrace the homosexual lifestyle as normal, and not sin. I am all for gay people attending our churches. I want them to be saved and changed by God's power. But loving the sinner and embracing the sin is definitely two different things.

I wish an Apostolic with good people and communication skills would run. Who do we have that could fit that bill?

[StMark]

check out this article on Obama's pastor!


Obama's pastor caught dissing Natalee Holloway

'White girl goes off, gives it up' in Aruba, candidate's pal claims



http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59887

[Ferd]

It would be hard to think of anything any more disgusting.

I think hillary would be worse.


but obama is just another democrat and therefore very bad for America.

[Mercy]

I think you are right. Since republicans are not fairing well, they might be smart to vote hillary at the primary to guarantee her as the democratic nominee.

Funny that you would suggest this. There is nothing new under the sun. This is what has been done in this country on countless occassions to "bate and switch" to make sure that no one opposing the "main stream of Jim Crow" was elected into office. Funny that its 2008 and that tactic is still being used and discussed. Funny, but not really. Makes me sad. I've enjoyed reading these forums though....nice to hear what people will NEVER say to your face.

[DividedThigh]

look all of this is just background noise, all i need to know is the man is a liberal democrat, not gonna get my vote, and by the way jcwatts is black and if he ran , i would vote for him, so this aint about race it is about ideas, and obama has the wrong ones, dt:tvhappy

[Mosby48]

FYI


Barack Obama is a member of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. Its minister, and Obama's spiritual adviser, is the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. In 1982, the church launched Trumpet Newsmagazine; Wright's daughters serve as publisher and executive editor. Every year, the magazine makes awards in various categories. Last year, it gave the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to a man it said "truly epitomized greatness." That man is Louis Farrakhan.
I am in a rush and can't call it up but "google" Obama's church web site. Check out the organizations they support and read their beliefs. Very few whites are as racist as this church admits to being.

[Mercy]

Very few whites are as racist as this church admits to being.


And on that note I must leave this thread....what country do YOU live in! Very few whites are racists....out of control.

And now I bow out. I cant read this trash anymore.

[DividedThigh]

And on that note I must leave this thread....what country do YOU live in! Very few whites are racists....out of control.

And now I bow out. I cant read this trash anymore.

hey mercy, sincerely i am curious, what do you mean you have to leave, i am from the south have seen racism my whole life, believe me i understand it, many whites are racist no doubt, but are they the only ones capable of that, genuinely curious on your thoughts, god bless, dt

[Scott Hutchinson]

Unfortunately where I live in South,AL. alot of both whites and blacks are racist.
Racist under any guise in wrong.

[DividedThigh]

Unfortunately where I live in South,AL. alot of both whites and blacks are racist.
Racist under any guise in wrong.

very true bro scott, dt

[Scott Hutchinson]

And too folks such as the Christian indentity movement are wrong to use scriptures to justify racism.

[Apprehended]

You're on to something. Even a lot of white folks are going fro him which has come as a shock to me.

I don't know if you all heard but just over the holidays,the church that Barak attends, their choir director was murdered by some Jealous lover.
someone sent me the news clips from Chicago. his church openly accepts gays and anything goes

also, I really do believe that Barak is an undercover muslim which scares me worse then hillary and bill


You believe?

In my mind there is NO doubt in the least...none!

[Ferd]

I am in a rush and can't call it up but "google" Obama's church web site. Check out the organizations they support and read their beliefs. Very few whites are as racist as this church admits to being.

very few? LOL.

no excuse for the overt racism from Trinity church and its pastor, but to say that there arent many whites as racists as this pastor is about as accurate as ray charles shooting a .22 pistol at a quail.

[Apprehended]

I think hillary would be worse.


but obama is just another democrat and therefore very bad for America.

Not really sure who would be worse, but it hard for me to imagine anything would be worse than ol' Osama...

[Music4Jesus]

well, we read recently that obama really is a radical muslim, but the republicans are holding it back cuz they actually hope he wins the nominee so they can pull out all the stops

[DividedThigh]

the fact that he is a liberal democrat, pro abortion, never seen a tax he didnt like should be enough, lol,dt:tvhappy

[TRFrance]

I think if he wins as the Democratic nominee, he WILL be our next president.

It would be hard to think of anything any more disgusting.
More disgusting.... how about President Barack Obama and Vice President Hillary Clinton?!

[TRFrance]

If you're a Republican, you want Hillary to beat Obama for the nomination (I'm pretty sure she will). I have no doubt that McCain/Huckabee or McCain/Giuliani could could beat Hillary.

[Aquila]

Praise the Republicans!

This makes me sick. The Republicans and the Democrats are equally corrupt. You need to vote for the individual that will protect you and your family's interests and ditch all this sensationalist garbage from phony news sources like WND and NewsMax.

Abortion?
Gay Marriage?

RIIIIGHHHT. They don't plan to do anything about it. The subjects need to be removed from the table when voting...but sadly those who are indoctrinated and brainwashed by talk radio are convinced that these are make or break issues. Wrong. They are wedge issues that are designed to keep you in their camp by playing with your convictions.

Americans have become so stupid they don't understand the difference between commentary and real news!

Don't you realize there is a corporate take over that is undermining democracy happening right under our noses? I was listening to a conservative radio talk show host last night who demanded that we should only allow land owners to vote! To my absolutely disbelief conservative callers were calling up and supporting his notion like mindless drones. If I was in the same room with him when he said that I would have ripped his guts out and strangled him with his own intestines.

Conservatism as I once loved it has become an angry, bitter, vitriolic, fearsome, hateful, ignorant, anti-government, anti-American, anti-family, anti-health, anti-environment, anti-rule of law, anarchist monstrosity I don't even recognize. And what gets me the most is that honorable men have followed them like lemmings into this extremism.

Frankly, in my opinion, if one votes for a "free market monkey" who will just pat corporations on the back with tax breaks for moving their business overseas they've committed treason against the United States. We need to return to sanity.

[DividedThigh]

Praise the Republicans!

This makes me sick. The Republicans and the Democrats are equally corrupt. You need to vote for the individual that will protect you and your family's interests and ditch all this sensationalist garbage from phony news sources like WND and NewsMax.

Americans have become so stupid they don't understand the difference between commentary and real news!

Don't you realize there is a corporate take over that is undermining democracy happening right under our noses? I was listening to a conservative radio talk show host last night who demanded that we should only allow land owners to vote! If I was in the same room with him when he said that I would have ripped his guts out and strangled him with his own intestines.

wow aquila, i thought i was the cynical one, lol,dt:tvhappy

[Aquila]

wow aquila, i thought i was the cynical one, lol,dt:tvhappy

I'm not just cynical. I'm furious with how we worship at the Republican altar like it's an article of faith even though the Republicans don't care if we even have jobs to support our families.

Pro-Family means....protecting jobs AND WAGES that families depend upon, making sure all families have access to affordable health insurance, making sure their are domestic initiatives to help families who are facing hard times. The Republicans have only chosen two issues to parade around and beat their chests about...abortion and gay marriage. Two subjects that will NEVER be resolved and play on our prejudices and our fears. With these issues they manipulate us through our moral convictions and get us to give them cart blanch power to sell out the American family in every other way. I've woke up. I've realized that when it comes to the family it takes more than being Pro-Life and Anti-Gay to raise a family. I'm watching families sink and fall apart because they can't afford to live in America. I'm watching families who fear they will have to declare bankruptcy and loose EVERYTHING they've worked hard for because of skyrocketing medical bills.

It's time that we wake up...America is being manipulated by globalistic corporatists that are pumping all our resources into foreign markets in the name of "free trade" and "fair competition". Baloney. They are equalizing us with the third world where they have all their investments! THEY'RE DRAINING US DRY!

I HATE THEM. I would love to see a revolution. I'd be the first to take up arms against this right-wing insanity that plays on my morals to subvert my liberties and pillage my family.

This is my pea pach....and they want to sell it to China. This little man is going to fight them for all he's worth. After spending time outside of the US I was absolutely embarrassed to call myself an American.

[DividedThigh]

I'm not just cynical. I'm furious with how we worship at the Republican altar like it's an article of faith even though the Republicans don't care if we even have jobs to support our families.

Pro-Family means....protecting jobs AND WAGES that families depend upon, making sure all families have access to affordable health insurance, making sure their are domestic initiatives to help families who are facing hard times. The Republicans have only chosen two issues to parade around and beat their chests about...abortion and gay marriage. Two subjects that will NEVER be resolved and play on our prejudices and our fears. With these issues they manipulate us through our moral convictions and get us to give them cart blanch power to sell out the American family in every other way. I've woke up. I've realized that when it comes to the family it takes more than being Pro-Life and Anti-Gay to raise a family. I'm watching families sink and fall apart because they can't afford to live in America. I'm watching families who fear they will have to declare bankruptcy and loose EVERYTHING they've worked hard for because of skyrocketing medical bills.

It's time that we wake up...America is being manipulated by globalistic corporatists that are pumping all our resources into foreign markets in the name of "free trade" and "fair competition". Baloney. They are equalizing us with the third world where they have all their investments! THEY'RE DRAINING US DRY!

I HATE THEM. I would love to see a revolution. I'd be the first to take up arms against this right-wing insanity that plays on my morals to subvert my liberties and pillage my family.

This is my pea pach....and they want to sell it to China. This little man is going to fight them for all he's worth. After spending time outside of the US I was absolutely embarrassed to call myself an American.

ok, brother god bless your patriotism and passion for family and country, dt

[ReformedDave]

I'm not just cynical. I'm furious with how we worship at the Republican altar like it's an article of faith even though the Republicans don't care if we even have jobs to support our families.

Pro-Family means....protecting jobs AND WAGES that families depend upon, making sure all families have access to affordable health insurance, making sure their are domestic initiatives to help families who are facing hard times. The Republicans have only chosen two issues to parade around and beat their chests about...abortion and gay marriage. Two subjects that will NEVER be resolved and play on our prejudices and our fears. With these issues they manipulate us through our moral convictions and get us to give them cart blanch power to sell out the American family in every other way. I've woke up. I've realized that when it comes to the family it takes more than being Pro-Life and Anti-Gay to raise a family. I'm watching families sink and fall apart because they can't afford to live in America. I'm watching families who fear they will have to declare bankruptcy and loose EVERYTHING they've worked hard for because of skyrocketing medical bills.

It's time that we wake up...America is being manipulated by globalistic corporatists that are pumping all our resources into foreign markets in the name of "free trade" and "fair competition". Baloney. They are equalizing us with the third world where they have all their investments! THEY'RE DRAINING US DRY!

I HATE THEM. I would love to see a revolution. I'd be the first to take up arms against this right-wing insanity that plays on my morals to subvert my liberties and pillage my family.

This is my pea pach....and they want to sell it to China. This little man is going to fight them for all he's worth. After spending time outside of the US I was absolutely embarrassed to call myself an American.


Not a capitalist eh?!

[DividedThigh]

Not a capitalist eh?!

i guess not, but i am , lol, dt:tvhappy

[Aquila]

Not a capitalist eh?!

I don't support Laissez-faire Capitalism. It's economic Social Darwinism, economic anarchy, and it allows special interests to sell our country down the river. It was the Laissez-faire capitalists who cried for deregulation of the banking industry and removed regulations that would have prevented the predatory lending practices of this variable rate mortgage debacle. I believe in allowing businesses to thrive...under laws that protect the investor and national economic interests. If Government cannot govern and protect the interests of the people it serves...what good is it?

[Monkeyman]

Anyone have any good soviet soundtrack music ready, Aquila's gettin' ready to march!!!!!Lol

[DividedThigh]

Anyone have any good soviet soundtrack music ready, Aquila's gettin' ready to march!!!!!Lol

hey monkey man you made me laugh too, thanks, dt:tvhappy

[Praxeas]

I think you are right. Since republicans are not fairing well, they might be smart to vote hillary at the primary to guarantee her as the democratic nominee.
Talking to a youth who just turned 18...he thinks it would be great to have America's first black president so he wants to vote for him...I asked "Do you know what he believes? What he stands for?"....nope...isn't that how OJ Simpson got away with murder?

[Aquila]

Anyone have any good soviet soundtrack music ready, Aquila's gettin' ready to march!!!!!Lol

I find that HIGHLY insulting. Our founders also opposed Laissez-faire Capitalism...you wouldn't call George Washington a Communist would you? They had strong regulations on the state level to keep corporations very limited. They also supported tariffs and taxes that discouraged participation in certain overseas markets. I'm very insulted. That's part of the problem with America. The propaganda machine of Corporate America has brainwashed many good Americans into classifying anyone who would advocate fair trade law as a Communist. America is slowly sinking into a new low. Why don't we just sell the country and declare ourselves Chinese? That's the ultimate outcome of your brand of Capitalism. Your "American Way" is "Made in China." It's time to pick your loyalties. Please don't insinuate that I'm a Communist again. I find that VERY offensive.

[Music4Jesus]

I can see why Bro. Suber recently said, there are people who call themselves Christians but are willing to vote for a party that supports abortion to put a little more money in their own pockets.

[pelathais]

I have heard others suggest Obama's Pastor is a racist and his church, an afro centric church, is racist.

Being Afro-Centric is not necessarily racist though. However I find these comments disturbing

"Black women are being raped daily in Darfur, Sudan (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59887#), in the Congo and in Sub-Saharan Africa. That doesn't make news," Wright said in the August 2005 edition of Trumpet Magazine, a publication of his Trinity United Church of Christ.


But, "One 18-year-old white girl from Alabama gets drunk on a graduation trip to Aruba, goes off and 'gives it up' while in a foreign country, and that stays in the news for months!" he added. "Maybe I am missing something!"

"In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01," he wrote on page 7. "White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just 'disappeared,' as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns."

Obama says he is "proud" of Wright and values their 20-year friendship.
Though Wright has nurtured Obama's political career as a close adviser and mentor, the Democrat presidential (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59887#) hopeful says they don't agree on everything. Wright married Obama and baptized his daughters.

"He brings a perspective that is helpful and honest," Wright said. "Minister Farrakhan will be remembered as one of the 20th and 21st century giants of the African-American religious experience."
Wright then held Farrakhan up as a pillar of "integrity."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59887


The terrible crime of Darfur that he speaks about is real, but it's not "whites" who are doing the raping and killing, but rather Sudanese Arabs. He's right to be concerned about that, but when he points the finger at an innocent people does come across as racist, at least in my opinion.

But then again, there's that double standard that he complains about. Only "whites" can be considered "racists." Others are free to hate without incriminating themselves.

[Aquila]

I can see why Bro. Suber recently said, there are people who call themselves Christians but are willing to vote for a party that supports abortion to put a little more money in their own pockets.

Suber fails to realize that the nation with the lowest abortion rate in the entire world is the liberal nation of Belgium. Abortion's legality has nothing to do with the rate of abortion in a given country. South American countries that have completely banned abortion have some of the world's highest abortion rates. Abortion is just an issue the Republicans use to keep us marching to the voting booth and voting for them even though they sell our industry overseas for cheep foreign labor...and then give tax breaks to the companies that do so. Family values start with jobs and wages. You can raise a family if you can't afford to keep a roof over your head.

[ReformedDave]

Suber fails to realize that the nation with the lowest abortion rate in the entire world is the liberal nation of Belgium. Abortion's legality has nothing to do with the rate of abortion in a given country. South American countries that have completely banned abortion have some of the world's highest abortion rates. Abortion is just an issue the Republicans use to keep us marching to the voting booth and voting for them even though they sell our industry overseas for cheep foreign labor...and then give tax breaks to the companies that do so. Family values start with jobs and wages. You can raise a family if you can't afford to keep a roof over your head.

What is the basis for your liberal position?

[Aquila]

Name one woman ever forced to have an abortion by a Democrat. Just one. Democrats simply believe the issue is often too complex to be decided by the government and that the government should defer the choice to the individual woman in question. She alone will stand morally as an individual for her choice rather it was needed or not.

My point is that even under Pro-Choice government the one who chooses abortion is the offender. No one forces anyone to have an abortion. Most Republicans and libertarian minded conservatives firmly agree.

[Aquila]

What is the basis for your liberal position?

Not sure if I understand your question.

[ReformedDave]

Not sure if I understand your question.

There has to be a philosophical underpinning or presupposition to offer a cohesiveness to one's worldview. Seeing that most of us profess Christianity I'm interested how you justified your position Biblically. That's all.

[Monkeyman]

I find that HIGHLY insulting. Our founders also opposed Laissez-faire Capitalism...you wouldn't call George Washington a Communist would you? They had strong regulations on the state level to keep corporations very limited. They also supported tariffs and taxes that discouraged participation in certain overseas markets. I'm very insulted. That's part of the problem with America. The propaganda machine of Corporate America has brainwashed many good Americans into classifying anyone who would advocate fair trade law as a Communist. America is slowly sinking into a new low. Why don't we just sell the country and declare ourselves Chinese? That's the ultimate outcome of your brand of Capitalism. Your "American Way" is "Made in China." It's time to pick your loyalties. Please don't insinuate that I'm a Communist again. I find that VERY offensive.Aquila, seriously, get over yourself. Of course average joes like myself are going to snicker at your rants when you use words like laissez-faire capitalism...you open YOURSELF up to funny quips and shots from the cheap seats. That is AFF. That is how I roll...get over yourself, and feel free to criticize my dumb posts as well, believe me, I'm an easy target. Its easy to do, just place me on ignore, but I will call your post as I see them, you no likey...ignore please. March on bru!

[Ferd]

A little HISTORIC PERSPECTIVE is needed I see….

Aquilla noted that George Washington and his pals placed many very tight regulations on corporations…at the state level..

THIS IS ABOSOLUTLY TRUE.

However, when you say “corporation” to an American living in 21st century America it means something vastly different than saying the word “corporation” to someone living in late 18th century, early 19th century America.

Now you will either get “oh yea I work for one of those” or “big oil! Run for the hills!”

Then, you might get shot.


You see, the worst we have in the form of corporations is a wrong headed notion that “big xxxxxx” is out to make too much money and they don’t care who gets hurt in the process.

Back in 1776, a corporation was a charter by a king, that had extensive powers that included imprisoning people, beating them half to death with a whip, and even stringing them up on the nearest tree. A corporation carried the force of the Sovereigns authority with no checks and balances. They could enslave a perfectly healthy free white man. They could take land away from people who had lived on that land for generations with no appeal to any governing body. In many cases they were the only governing body.


So Aquilla, lets not trot out GWash didn’t like corporations, as a reason to hamstring American business. It’s a bucket that just won’t hold water.

[Aquila]

There has to be a philosophical underpinning or presupposition to offer a cohesiveness to one's worldview. Seeing that most of us profess Christianity I'm interested how you justified your position Biblically. That's all.

Well I'm not sure if this will explain what you want me to explain but I'll try. When it comes to abortion, abortion's legality doesn't have any baring on abortion rates. Some of the world's nations with the most pro-life laws have the world's highest abortion rates. For example nations in South America. However, pro-choice nations often have lower abortion rates than these "pro-life" nations. When I was looking into this I discovered some things. Belgium has the world's lowest abortion rates yet it's a Pro-Choice and very liberal nation. Belgium often bills itself as a family friendly nation. Every family in Belgium has health insurance. Families in Belgium do not suffer under suppressed wages. Single parent families have subsidized child care. And a host of other domestic initiatives aimed at helping families be...a family. In America when it comes to health insurance the philosophy is, I got mine you get yours. Oh can't afford yours? Too bad. Hope you find some charity. Oh, charity cannot afford to sustain your cancer treatments? Oh well...I guess you were meant to survive. Later. I'll see you at your funeral. Single parents often face an uphill battle when it comes to jobs and wages to keep them above water. Add the cost of child care the odds are stacked against them. What I'm saying is that Belgium has invested in the family and it's paying off. More women in Belgium choose life because they know they indeed can raise a family and single women with unexpected pregnancies know they can raise a family without working 12-16 hour days for barely enough on the hour to keep a roof over their heads.

America has fallen behind most of the Western Word when it comes to education and most domestic policy initiatives. Belgium has lower abortion rates than we do. Two out of three American women who choose abortion state that they chose abortion because they could afford a family. A good percentage of these were married with already existing children. The American economy doesn't support families. It supports the wealthy. Families face an uphill battle on every front. Our divorce rate is amazingly high. Why do most marriages fall apart...financial problems. Many Americans have worked hard and have actually accomplished a lot. Yet they cannot afford health insurance. When taken ill they are faced with overwhelming health care costs and they loose everything they worked for to bankruptcy. The American economic system is just the opposite of Belgium's. Like it or not families need money to survive. They need economic stability to survive. And right now in America that just doesn't exist. Many families reaching out for the American dream fell prey to predatory lending practices of variable rate mortgages. These banking entities essentially set these families up to loose it all for profits. You can't raise a family without a job. You can't raise a family without a wage that is livable. You can't raise a family without health insurance to address your family's health needs. You can't raise a family in an economy where the cost of goods is steadily rising while wages are not. We often rate a politician as pro-family or anti-family based on their position on two issues...abortion and gay marriage. But in all honesty those are only two issues. And in all honesty families are more directly effected by suppressed wages and lack of health insurance than what the gay couple does down the street. I believe that America would see less abortion if it took a Pro-Family domestic policy position similar to that seen in Belgium. Belgium has the lowest abortion rate in the world. That's nothing to sneeze at.

America is a terrible place to raise a family. We who have spent quite a bit of time in other countries and return to America are often in shock at America's downward spiral. Many foreigners come to America expecting to see prosperity and peace only to be amazed at rampant crime, poverty, and political wrangling. I know a couple from Italy who recently came to the United States. They are currently working on getting back to Italy because they just can't make it here and raise their family.

America can do better than this. Pro-Family means being pro what families need.

[Aquila]

A little HISTORIC PERSPECTIVE is needed I see….

Aquilla noted that George Washington and his pals placed many very tight regulations on corporations…at the state level..

THIS IS ABOSOLUTLY TRUE.

However, when you say “corporation” to an American living in 21st century America it means something vastly different than saying the word “corporation” to someone living in late 18th century, early 19th century America.

Now you will either get “oh yea I work for one of those” or “big oil! Run for the hills!”

Then, you might get shot.


You see, the worst we have in the form of corporations is a wrong headed notion that “big xxxxxx” is out to make too much money and they don’t care who gets hurt in the process.

Back in 1776, a corporation was a charter by a king, that had extensive powers that included imprisoning people, beating them half to death with a whip, and even stringing them up on the nearest tree. A corporation carried the force of the Sovereigns authority with no checks and balances. They could enslave a perfectly healthy free white man. They could take land away from people who had lived on that land for generations with no appeal to any governing body. In many cases they were the only governing body.


So Aquilla, lets not trot out GWash didn’t like corporations, as a reason to hamstring American business. It’s a bucket that just won’t hold water.

Ferd, laws were on the books preventing AMERICAN corporations from infiltrating politics with their interests and money until the late 1800's. Corporations are not citizens and in the late 1800's they were granted by the SCOTUS rights of free speech. That was something our founders were dead set against because naturally the one with the most money will drown out the voices of the average citizen. Corporate money should be banned from politics and corporations shouldn't have a right to free speech. They are not citizens.

[Aquila]

Those are my opinions. But hey...what do I know. Maybe abortion and gay marriage are the most important issues facing the American family. Personally...I think these are just political noise.

[Ferd]

Ferd, laws were on the books preventing AMERICAN corporations from infiltrating politics with their interests and money until the late 1800's. Corporations are not citizens and in the late 1800's they were granted by the SCOTUS rights of free speech. That was something our founders were dead set against because naturally the one with the most money will drown out the voices of the average citizen. Corporate money should be banned from politics and corporations shouldn't have a right to free speech. They are not citizens.

Again, you are completly right, and historically muddled.

The REASON the founders were so opposed to corporations was because WHAT THAT MEANT in early 19th century Western culture. NOT because of what a corporation means today.

you cannot build an argument on this, it simply cannot be done.

One can clearly make the case that there are certain protections that must be held (See Teddy Roosevelt and the trust busters). One can make the case that American should not allow China greater access to our markets than they allow us access to their markets, and do so without wading into the protectionists pond...


One cannot however, take a founders hatred of the Hudson Bay Company and extroplate a reson to choke the life out of Exxon.

[Aquila]

Again, you are completly right, and historically muddled.

The REASON the founders were so opposed to corporations was because WHAT THAT MEANT in early 19th century Western culture. NOT because of what a corporation means today.

you cannot build an argument on this, it simply cannot be done.

One can clearly make the case that there are certain protections that must be held (See Teddy Roosevelt and the trust busters). One can make the case that American should not allow China greater access to our markets than they allow us access to their markets, and do so without wading into the protectionists pond...


One cannot however, take a founders hatred of the Hudson Bay Company and extroplate a reson to choke the life out of Exxon.

Ferd...many corporations are thugs in the international scene. Many have their own "security" units that are nearly paramilitary. Many have beaten local government officials into submitting to interests that are in the best interest of a given corporation. They often bring the locals into slave labor in unsafe working environments etc.

Have you heard of PMCs? What are your thoughts on them?

[ReformedDave]

Well I'm not sure if this will explain what you want me to explain but I'll try. When it comes to abortion, abortion's legality doesn't have any baring on abortion rates. Some of the world's nations with the most pro-life laws have the world's highest abortion rates. For example nations in South America. However, pro-choice nations often have lower abortion rates than these "pro-life" nations. When I was looking into this I discovered some things. Belgium has the world's lowest abortion rates yet it's a Pro-Choice and very liberal nation. Belgium often bills itself as a family friendly nation. Every family in Belgium has health insurance. Families in Belgium do not suffer under suppressed wages. Single parent families have subsidized child care. And a host of other domestic initiatives aimed at helping families be...a family. In America when it comes to health insurance the philosophy is, I got mine you get yours. Oh can't afford yours? Too bad. Hope you find some charity. Oh, charity cannot afford to sustain your cancer treatments? Oh well...I guess you were meant to survive. Later. I'll see you at your funeral. Single parents often face an uphill battle when it comes to jobs and wages to keep them above water. Add the cost of child care the odds are stacked against them. What I'm saying is that Belgium has invested in the family and it's paying off. More women in Belgium choose life because they know they indeed can raise a family and single women with unexpected pregnancies know they can raise a family without working 12-16 hour days for barely enough on the hour to keep a roof over their heads.

America has fallen behind most of the Western Word when it comes to education and most domestic policy initiatives. Belgium has lower abortion rates than we do. Two out of three American women who choose abortion state that they chose abortion because they could afford a family. A good percentage of these were married with already existing children. The American economy doesn't support families. It supports the wealthy. Families face an uphill battle on every front. Our divorce rate is amazingly high. Why do most marriages fall apart...financial problems. Many Americans have worked hard and have actually accomplished a lot. Yet they cannot afford health insurance. When taken ill they are faced with overwhelming health care costs and they loose everything they worked for to bankruptcy. The American economic system is just the opposite of Belgium's. Like it or not families need money to survive. They need economic stability to survive. And right now in America that just doesn't exist. Many families reaching out for the American dream fell prey to predatory lending practices of variable rate mortgages. These banking entities essentially set these families up to loose it all for profits. You can't raise a family without a job. You can't raise a family without a wage that is livable. You can't raise a family without health insurance to address your family's health needs. You can't raise a family in an economy where the cost of goods is steadily rising while wages are not. We often rate a politician as pro-family or anti-family based on their position on two issues...abortion and gay marriage. But in all honesty those are only two issues. And in all honesty families are more directly effected by suppressed wages and lack of health insurance than what the gay couple does down the street. I believe that America would see less abortion if it took a Pro-Family domestic policy position similar to that seen in Belgium. Belgium has the lowest abortion rate in the world. That's nothing to sneeze at.

America is a terrible place to raise a family. We who have spent quite a bit of time in other countries and return to America are often in shock at America's downward spiral. Many foreigners come to America expecting to see prosperity and peace only to be amazed at rampant crime, poverty, and political wrangling. I know a couple from Italy who recently came to the United States. They are currently working on getting back to Italy because they just can't make it here and raise their family.

America can do better than this. Pro-Family means being pro what families need.

Very interesting post. If you could be 'king' for a term what would you do to try to accomplish a more pro-family society?

Just to balance out your anecdotal comments. I have friends who have moved to New Zealand and miss the ol' USA badly.

[TRFrance]

Well I'm not sure if this will explain what you want me to explain but I'll try. When it comes to abortion, abortion's legality doesn't have any baring on abortion rates. Some of the world's nations with the most pro-life laws have the world's highest abortion rates. For example nations in South America. However, pro-choice nations often have lower abortion rates than these "pro-life" nations. When I was looking into this I discovered some things. Belgium has the world's lowest abortion rates yet it's a Pro-Choice and very liberal nation. Belgium often bills itself as a family friendly nation. Every family in Belgium has health insurance. Families in Belgium do not suffer under suppressed wages. Single parent families have subsidized child care. And a host of other domestic initiatives aimed at helping families be...a family. In America when it comes to health insurance the philosophy is, I got mine you get yours. Oh can't afford yours? Too bad. Hope you find some charity. Oh, charity cannot afford to sustain your cancer treatments? Oh well...I guess you were meant to survive. Later. I'll see you at your funeral. Single parents often face an uphill battle when it comes to jobs and wages to keep them above water. Add the cost of child care the odds are stacked against them. What I'm saying is that Belgium has invested in the family and it's paying off. More women in Belgium choose life because they know they indeed can raise a family and single women with unexpected pregnancies know they can raise a family without working 12-16 hour days for barely enough on the hour to keep a roof over their heads.

America has fallen behind most of the Western Word when it comes to education and most domestic policy initiatives. Belgium has lower abortion rates than we do. Two out of three American women who choose abortion state that they chose abortion because they could afford a family. A good percentage of these were married with already existing children. The American economy doesn't support families. It supports the wealthy. Families face an uphill battle on every front. Our divorce rate is amazingly high. Why do most marriages fall apart...financial problems. Many Americans have worked hard and have actually accomplished a lot. Yet they cannot afford health insurance. When taken ill they are faced with overwhelming health care costs and they loose everything they worked for to bankruptcy. The American economic system is just the opposite of Belgium's. Like it or not families need money to survive. They need economic stability to survive. And right now in America that just doesn't exist. Many families reaching out for the American dream fell prey to predatory lending practices of variable rate mortgages. These banking entities essentially set these families up to loose it all for profits. You can't raise a family without a job. You can't raise a family without a wage that is livable. You can't raise a family without health insurance to address your family's health needs. You can't raise a family in an economy where the cost of goods is steadily rising while wages are not. We often rate a politician as pro-family or anti-family based on their position on two issues...abortion and gay marriage. But in all honesty those are only two issues. And in all honesty families are more directly effected by suppressed wages and lack of health insurance than what the gay couple does down the street. I believe that America would see less abortion if it took a Pro-Family domestic policy position similar to that seen in Belgium. Belgium has the lowest abortion rate in the world. That's nothing to sneeze at.

America is a terrible place to raise a family. We who have spent quite a bit of time in other countries and return to America are often in shock at America's downward spiral. Many foreigners come to America expecting to see prosperity and peace only to be amazed at rampant crime, poverty, and political wrangling. I know a couple from Italy who recently came to the United States. They are currently working on getting back to Italy because they just can't make it here and raise their family.

America can do better than this. Pro-Family means being pro what families need.

Good grief. I don't even know where to begin with this. I'll just keep it simple.

You seem to have a great affinity for Belgium. Nice. But keep in mind theres probably some guy on Belgian message board as we speak, complaining about stuff about their country/system that he doesn't like. The grass always seems greener on the other side.

With all of America's "issues", there are still a lot more Europeans looking to come to America, than the other way around. Maybe there's a reason for that.

[Aquila]

King for a term….

Work on a national health insurance plan similar to that possessed by congress. I’d structure it with both public and private components similar to that found in France.

Offer more middle class and small business tax credits.

Reduce the massive tax giveaways to the top 2% on the economic ladder.

Push to implement elements of the 95-10 Initiative supported by Democrats that aims at reducing the rate of abortion in the United States by 95% in 10 years.

Cap malpractice rewards.

Streamline the approval process of medications and treatments.

Focus on domestic security and counter terrorism not expansive and pre-emptive war with nation states.

Begin a “Manhattan Project” to find more efficient fuel sources to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

Begin leading the way on environmental standards and heavily tax goods sold in the US produced by companies from countries that are non-compliant.

[DividedThigh]

King for a term….

Work on a national health insurance plan similar to that possessed by congress. I’d structure it with both public and private components similar to that found in France.

Offer more middle class and small business tax credits.

Reduce the massive tax giveaways to the top 2% on the economic ladder.

Push to implement elements of the 95-10 Initiative supported by Democrats that aims at reducing the rate of abortion in the United States by 95% in 10 years.

Cap malpractice rewards.

Streamline the approval process of medications and treatments.

Focus on domestic security and counter terrorism not expansive and pre-emptive war with nation states.

Begin a “Manhattan Project” to find more efficient fuel sources to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

Begin leading the way on environmental standards and heavily tax goods sold in the US produced by companies from countries that are non-compliant.

good luck with that, oh yeah gotta get elected first, sorry, dt:tvhappy

[Aquila]

We need a President that represents the "people" and not the “privileged”.

[Ferd]

Ferd...many corporations are thugs in the international scene. Many have their own "security" units that are nearly paramilitary. Many have beaten local government officials into submitting to interests that are in the best interest of a given corporation. They often bring the locals into slave labor in unsafe working environments etc.

Have you heard of PMCs? What are your thoughts on them?

Oh good grief!

what? are you now going to site Jerico the TV show as proof that Black Water USA is out to get us?


black helicopter alert!

[Ferd]

We need a President that represents the "people" and not the “privileged”.

Yes, like George W. Bush who removed millions of low income Americans from the income tax rolls!

Gave them all a 100% tax break!

[ChristopherHall]

Ferd, do you believe in taxing those working at or below poverty level?

[ChristopherHall]

The entire political establishment is corrupt. The Republicans will sell us out for profit. The Democrats are morally bankrupt. I'd almost agree if one argued that voting for either was a grave sin against God and nation.

[ChristopherHall]

A wonderful study on taxation is in relation to "tax burden". Many people listen to the talk radio nutcases that focus on percentage paid. The real issue is "burden" in relation to cost of living. For example they would say that taxing a person making $30,000 a year and a person making $200,000 a year at an equal percentage such as 17% is "fair". It's a "flat tax" that taxes equally right? Wrong. You see what they are not considering is that these are more than just numbers. These are people contending with the average cost of living. When the cost of rent or mortgage, automobile, gasoline, food, health insurance, and other necessities are considered taxing a person making $30,000 a year at 17% could land them in poverty. They may find they cannot afford a place to live, clothing, a car, insurance, health insurance, etc. They may have to resort to charity and food banks to make ends meet. However the one making $200,000 a year may pay the same percentage, 17%, but they are not endanger of loosing their home, car, or necessities. The "tax burden" is greater felt on the one making $30,000 a year and they are economically in greater dire straights. BUT...a graduated tax system distributes "tax burden" in a more just manner in relation to average cost of living. Certain tax breaks are offered to each but the lesser percentage will be paid by the one making $30,000 a year and a greater percentage will be paid by the one making $200,000 a year. Each will feel the burden of taxation but neither will face economic hardship as a result of taxation...if they manage their money well. Of course the nutcases of talk radio will play on this burden by telling the one making $200,000 a year that it's not "fair", they pay a greater percentage. Like most human beings these individuals will feel cheated and dedicate time and extra resources to elect the politicians the talk radio man promises will help them bring home more dough. These individuals who have been duped into a mistaken notion of "fairness" will not realize they are shifting the tax burden to those less fortunate or who make less. They will always feel cheated and pillaged and a victime mentality is bread in them. It's a political scam.

The issue isn't the percentage of taxes paid...the issue is the hardship of "tax burden" shared.

This of course times into a subject previously mentioned. A person making close to poverty level cannot afford to shoulder a tax burden that would through them below poverty level. Therefore these are generally exempt from paying income taxes. They are classified as "working poor".

The point for us to learn is that what sounds "fair" isn't always "just". God bless. ;)

[Ferd]

Ferd, do you believe in taxing those working at or below poverty level?

Now that is just a silly question.

I was taunting aquilla. not sharpsticking poor people.

[Ferd]

A wonderful study on taxation is in relation to "tax burden". Many people listen to the talk radio nutcases that focus on percentage paid. The real issue is "burden" in relation to cost of living. For example they would say that taxing a person making $30,000 a year and a person making $200,000 a year at an equal percentage such as 17% is "fair". It's a "flat tax" that taxes equally right? Wrong. You see what they are not considering is that these are more than just numbers. These are people contending with the average cost of living. When the cost of rent or mortgage, automobile, gasoline, food, health insurance, and other necessities are considered taxing a person making $30,000 a year at 17% could land them in poverty. They may find they cannot afford a place to live, clothing, a car, insurance, health insurance, etc. They may have to resort to charity and food banks to make ends meet. However the one making $200,000 a year may pay the same percentage, 17%, but they are not endanger of loosing their home, car, or necessities. The "tax burden" is greater felt on the one making $30,000 a year and they are economically in greater dire straights. BUT...a graduated tax system distributes "tax burden" in a more just manner in relation to average cost of living. Certain tax breaks are offered to each but the lesser percentage will be paid by the one making $30,000 a year and a greater percentage will be paid by the one making $200,000 a year. Each will feel the burden of taxation but neither will face economic hardship as a result of taxation...if they manage their money well. Of course the nutcases of talk radio will play on this burden by telling the one making $200,000 a year that it's not "fair", they pay a greater percentage. Like most human beings these individuals will feel cheated and dedicate time and extra resources to elect the politicians the talk radio man promises will help them bring home more dough. These individuals who have been duped into a mistaken notion of "fairness" will not realize they are shifting the tax burden to those less fortunate or who make less. They will always feel cheated and pillaged and a victime mentality is bread in them. It's a political scam.

The issue isn't the percentage of taxes paid...the issue is the hardship of "tax burden" shared.

This of course times into a subject previously mentioned. A person making close to poverty level cannot afford to shoulder a tax burden that would through them below poverty level. Therefore these are generally exempt from paying income taxes. They are classified as "working poor".

The point for us to learn is that what sounds "fair" isn't always "just". God bless. ;)


once again you successfully shoved a bunch of words together.

[ChristopherHall]

Now that is just a silly question.

I was taunting aquilla. not sharpsticking poor people.

Well...I figured you were taunting Aquil by sharpsticking poor people. hehe

[ChristopherHall]

once again you successfully shoved a bunch of words together.

Relax. Just take your time and sound the words out. If you remember your phonetics they'll make sense. LOL