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View Full Version : Superintendents...Presbyters......and ....WPF???


revrandy
01-29-2008, 08:08 AM
In talking with a some folks here the belief is that what the UPC Organization has in place concerning positions (Superintendent, Presbyter, Youth Positions) are not biblical offices....which is true...

It is interesting that the new WPF has set up an organization using the term Elder for it's structure...which is interesting.....because the word Elder is a Biblical Term....something like
49 Elders???

my question is "Would you have the same opinion of the WPF concerning the hierarchy and structure as you do of the UPC"?

And if you would by chance 'buck" the system there are going against your "Elders"?

Jus' Thinkin'....Don't know if this has been brought up or not.....

Just checked their Website....Maybe the 49 Elder thing has gone away...anybody know???

revrandy
01-29-2008, 08:11 AM
another question just popped into mind....

Who's authority supercedes who???

If a man wants to start a church in a certain location and the UPC tells him he can't (being that he is now bi-organizational) does he go to the WPF to get permission???

rgcraig
01-29-2008, 08:20 AM
another question just popped into mind....

Who's authority supercedes who???

If a man wants to start a church in a certain location and the UPC tells him he can't (being that he is now bi-organizational) does he go to the WPF to get permission???

I predict the bi-organization will not exist.

revrandy
01-29-2008, 08:22 AM
I predict the bi-organization will not exist.

You know if your prediction comes true...

I am going to call you "Prophetess Renda"...:D

rgcraig
01-29-2008, 08:22 AM
You know if your prediction comes true...

I am going to call you "Prophetess Renda"...:D

I've been called worse.

BoredOutOfMyMind
01-29-2008, 08:24 AM
I've been called worse.

Not by Randy!

rgcraig
01-29-2008, 08:24 AM
Not by Randy!

Very true!

revrandy
01-29-2008, 08:29 AM
Not by Randy!

Very true!

Very True!!! :happydance:happydance:toofunny

rgcraig
01-29-2008, 08:31 AM
another question just popped into mind....

Who's authority supercedes who???

If a man wants to start a church in a certain location and the UPC tells him he can't (being that he is now bi-organizational) does he go to the WPF to get permission???

Back to your original question.

If this happened, assuming the bi-org thing was working I think if the pastor felt led to open a church in that city and UPC told him he couldn't that might be when he turns in his UPC card and goes only with WPF.

chseeads
01-29-2008, 08:32 AM
another question just popped into mind....

Who's authority supercedes who???

If a man wants to start a church in a certain location and the UPC tells him he can't (being that he is now bi-organizational) does he go to the WPF to get permission???

Well, if they did that then the UPC would just blackball him.

revrandy
01-29-2008, 08:35 AM
Well, if they did that then the UPC would just blackball him.

Do you know anyone personally who's been blackballed by the UPC??

chseeads
01-29-2008, 08:42 AM
Do you know anyone personally who's been blackballed by the UPC??

Are you asking that to imply that the UPC doesn't really "blackball" anybody? Or what....?


I don't really personally know anybody that has been such....but I do know of at least one that would pretty much fit the bill.


In general though I don't find that the rules are carried out to the letter in most cases....not around here anyways... Such as the contacting of other UPC churches in the city if a UPC preacher is going to preach for a non-UPC, or whatever those rules are supposed to be....

BoredOutOfMyMind
01-29-2008, 09:01 AM
Are you asking that to imply that the UPC doesn't really "blackball" anybody? Or what....?


I don't really personally know anybody that has been such....but I do know of at least one that would pretty much fit the bill.


In general though I don't find that the rules are carried out to the letter in most cases....not around here anyways... Such as the contacting of other UPC churches in the city if a UPC preacher is going to preach for a non-UPC, or whatever those rules are supposed to be....

They don't take extreme "blackballing" tactics for the WPO.....

chseeads
01-29-2008, 09:09 AM
What's the WPO? lol

Ferd
01-29-2008, 10:00 AM
I predict the bi-organization will not exist.

Apprehended stated something in another thread that lends to your prediction.

He pointed out that the Tulsa 6 have created s "super voting block" within the UPCI.

I suspect the leadership of the UPCI will have to deal with that before the next GC.

This appears to me to have far reaching consequences.

mizpeh
01-29-2008, 10:16 AM
You know if your prediction comes true...

I am going to call you "Prophetess Renda"...:D

You might as well call her that now!

commonsense
01-29-2008, 10:27 AM
Not sure if this qualifies as blackballing, but 15+ years ago my husband preached for a good friend in another state. At the time this church was UPC. My husband had turned in his lic and was "independent".
Shortly after this meeting the pastor of the church was reprimanded for having a non UPC speaker.

(Ten years later we lived in the the city of this district official and actually attended his church for a few years.)

Hoovie
01-29-2008, 10:32 AM
another question just popped into mind....

Who's authority supercedes who???

If a man wants to start a church in a certain location and the UPC tells him he can't (being that he is now bi-organizational) does he go to the WPF to get permission???

IF one has dual membership they would need to satisfy both - it's that simple. Not likely to happen long term - I think.

Oh, and how about the Dual Dues?? :)

Hoovie
01-29-2008, 10:35 AM
Apprehended stated something in another thread that lends to your prediction.

He pointed out that the Tulsa 6 have created s "super voting block" within the UPCI.

I suspect the leadership of the UPCI will have to deal with that before the next GC.

This appears to me to have far reaching consequences.



Or not. Some will drop their UPC license while many in remainder are so independently minded I doubt a block vote can be established, except around very select issues.

rgcraig
01-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Apprehended stated something in another thread that lends to your prediction.

He pointed out that the Tulsa 6 have created s "super voting block" within the UPCI.

I suspect the leadership of the UPCI will have to deal with that before the next GC.

This appears to me to have far reaching consequences.

If that is true, then that would just be wrong. If they didn't agree with UPC enough to stay with them, then why should they have a voice?

I think this is where so many are caught in the middle because they have friends on both sides. Even though I actually think the split is a good thing for both parties, this is the area I see it hurting more than helping.

revrandy
01-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Apprehended stated something in another thread that lends to your prediction.

He pointed out that the Tulsa 6 have created s "super voting block" within the UPCI.

I suspect the leadership of the UPCI will have to deal with that before the next GC.

This appears to me to have far reaching consequences.


Good Thought...

HeavenlyOne
01-29-2008, 11:01 AM
You know if your prediction comes true...

I am going to call you "Prophetess Renda"...:D

I hear another song being sung now......................

bishoph
01-29-2008, 02:05 PM
Do you know anyone personally who's been blackballed by the UPC??

Some very well known men such as Mark Hanby and Kenneth Phillips, also the men who formed the AMF, as well as those who exited in 92 over the AS, all are pretty solid examples of being blackballed" by the UPCI. JMHO

pelathais
01-29-2008, 02:14 PM
Back to your original question.

If this happened, assuming the bi-org thing was working I think if the pastor felt led to open a church in that city and UPC told him he couldn't that might be when he turns in his UPC card and goes only with WPF.
"Biorganizational?" And now, "bi-org?" Neologisms. I like it.

The "biorg" sounds like a Norwegian variant of PastorPoster's "borg" phenomena. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dizzyde
01-29-2008, 02:18 PM
I predict the bi-organization will not exist.

I am pretty certain that this is already the case. I just heard a district official make the statement a few days ago that you cannot belong to both organizations.

It sounded like a fact when he said it, so I don't know if he was referring to stipulations currently in place, or things in the works. HMMMM... dunno.

grace_seeker
01-29-2008, 02:19 PM
"Biorganizational?" And now, "bi-org?" Neologisms. I like it.

The "biorg" sounds like a Norwegian variant of PastorPoster's "borg" phenomena. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

....and then there was Swedenborg.....:TulsaNO:

bloodbought
01-29-2008, 03:25 PM
I've been reading these blog's and usually chose to remain a silent observer, but just for your information, it is already a part of the UPCI's General Constitution, Article VII, Ministry, Section 2, # 6, concerning the duel membership thing. It is not suppose to be possible. "No minister shall be permitted to hold license or ordination with any other religious organization or association." It goes on to deal with some exceptions having to do with mainly overseas cases related to some governmental recognition requirements.

I'm not sure how brethren will be delt with if they attempt to hold membership in both groups, but I would believe the General Consitution would be a sound refernece point and place to start.

A brother should make himself fully aware of the points he has agreed to before he jumps off into another pot and somehow feel that he has been mistreated because his first affiliation is simply following their guidelines.

Michael Phelps
01-29-2008, 03:27 PM
I've been reading these blog's and usually chose to remain a silent observer, but just for your information, it is already a part of the UPCI's General Constitution, Article VII, Ministry, Section 2, # 6, concerning the duel membership thing. It is not suppose to be possible. "Not minister shall be permitted to hold license or ordination with any other religious organization or association." It goes on to deal with some exceptions having to do with mainly overseas cases related to some governmental recognition requirements.

I'm not sure how brethren will be delt with if they attempt to hold membership in both groups, but I would believe the General Consitution would be a sound refernece point and place to start.

A brother should make himself fully aware of the points he has agreed to before he jumps off into another pot and somehow feel that he has been mistreated because his first affiliation is simply following their guidelines.

Elder Epley answered this on another thread - the Tulsa organization is apparently NOT issuing licenses.

dizzyde
01-29-2008, 03:36 PM
Elder Epley answered this on another thread - the Tulsa organization is apparently NOT issuing licenses.

So, hasn't there been a discussion about what their dues are? If they are charging dues, what are they for? Just curious.

bloodbought
01-29-2008, 03:50 PM
Well...., They apparently do have some sort of paper trail that includes a $60.00 @ month fee. Sounds like some sort of membership, license to me.

My opinion and $5 will get you coffee at Starbucks.

jbigg
01-29-2008, 09:41 PM
Well...., They apparently do have some sort of paper trail that includes a $60.00 @ month fee. Sounds like some sort of membership, license to me.

My opinion and $5 will get you coffee at Starbucks.

So for it is no different than having a membership to a health club (like Curves) because they do NOT issue license.

Draw4Tacos
01-30-2008, 12:28 AM
Apprehended stated something in another thread that lends to your prediction.

He pointed out that the Tulsa 6 have created s "super voting block" within the UPCI.

I suspect the leadership of the UPCI will have to deal with that before the next GC.

This appears to me to have far reaching consequences.


It is my opinion that the "Tulsa 6" have for some time held a super voting block in the UPC. Maybe not all six, but at least the California contingent.

"...Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel..." Jesus Christ

staysharp
01-30-2008, 07:54 AM
Do you know anyone personally who's been blackballed by the UPC??

Yea, Me...:preach

Monkeyman
01-30-2008, 10:45 AM
I found out what the dues are for:




To hire all of the "flip-the-page" artists they need, since they can't video their meetings!!!!!

dizzyde
01-30-2008, 12:56 PM
I found out what the dues are for:




To hire all of the "flip-the-page" artists they need, since they can't video their meetings!!!!!

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

timlan2057
02-01-2008, 02:18 AM
In talking with a some folks here the belief is that what the UPC Organization has in place concerning positions (Superintendent, Presbyter, Youth Positions) are not biblical offices....which is true...

It is interesting that the new WPF has set up an organization using the term Elder for it's structure...which is interesting.....because the word Elder is a Biblical Term....something like
49 Elders???

my question is "Would you have the same opinion of the WPF concerning the hierarchy and structure as you do of the UPC"?

And if you would by chance 'buck" the system there are going against your "Elders"?

Jus' Thinkin'....Don't know if this has been brought up or not.....

Just checked their Website....Maybe the 49 Elder thing has gone away...anybody know???

If the UPC organizational structure is not "biblical" and consequently "sinful" then the WPF structure is both also because it's the exact same thing, no matter what name its originators call it.

The utter muddleheadedness of the mentality: "just changing the label on it makes it right" ... is astounding.

By the same logic, the WPF crowd thinks if you call a horse a duck then that horse will grow feathers, start quacking and fly south for the winter.

But ingrown thinking such as this is the byproduct of a oneness pentecostal ministerial body that is largely uneducated and unable to think critically.

Rhoni
02-01-2008, 04:38 AM
If the UPC organizational structure is not "biblical" and consequently "sinful" then the WPF structure is both also because it's the exact same thing, no matter what name its originators call it.

The utter muddleheadedness of the mentality: "just changing the label on it makes it right" ... is astounding.

By the same logic, the WPF crowd thinks if you call a horse a duck then that horse will grow feathers, start quacking and fly south for the winter.

But ingrown thinking such as this is the byproduct of a oneness pentecostal ministerial body that is largely uneducated and unable to think critically.

Touche'