We Must Rethink A Few Things

[Apprehended]

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

[Pressing-On]

Not wanting to criticize any of the actions. Just posting to say, "Good thoughts"!!!

Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

It will be interesting to read the weighing in...

[Joseph Miller]

If you think I have always agreed with my pastor on every little issue you are mistaken. I am hard headed. I have had a hard time learning about submission. I didn't want to submit. Because I wouldn't submit I didn't walk in the place of spiritual authority that I could have. As long as I bucked against the authority of the one above me I was very limited in my own authority.

I have to say that I agree with the original post on this thread. When you don't agree with leadership it don't mean that we run out and do our own thing. I tried that and for years it hurt my ministry and in some areas I may never recover. I know I can with the help of God. He is working on me. He is changing me. For a little over a year now I have been back under authority. I have submitted to him. He is not my preacher, he is my pastor. There is a difference. I may never agree with everything he says, does or asks of me but I have made a commitment to God that as long as there is no compromise of doctrine I will remain and submit.

I may be to open in my post but I have walked the road of "I will do my own thing". It is a road that only leads to hurt and disappointment. I am glad that when I realized that it wasn't working, it would never work that I had an open door to return to where I should have never left.

I love my pastor and I support him. He is more than just a pastor he is like my father. I am glad that when I went to him and asked him to forgive me of the way I left and the things I said and did that he forgave. It is now like I never left. I won't leave now until God moves me somewhere else, but he will confirm to me that it is God. If my authority don't feel like it is the move to make then I will remain where I am and keep a right spirit.

Just for the record, my opinion on the "whys" of Tusla is shared with by my pastor.

[Apprehended]

If you think I have always agreed with my pastor on every little issue you are mistaken. I am hard headed. I have had a hard time learning about submission. I didn't want to submit. Because I wouldn't submit I didn't walk in the place of spiritual authority that I could have. As long as I bucked against the authority of the one above me I was very limited in my own authority.

I have to say that I agree with the original post on this thread. When you don't agree with leadership it don't mean that we run out and do our own thing. I tried that and for years it hurt my ministry and in some areas I may never recover. I know I can with the help of God. He is working on me. He is changing me. For a little over a year now I have been back under authority. I have submitted to him. He is not my preacher, he is my pastor. There is a difference. I may never agree with everything he says, does or asks of me but I have made a commitment to God that as long as there is no compromise of doctrine I will remain and submit.

I may be to open in my post but I have walked the road of "I will do my own thing". It is a road that only leads to hurt and disappointment. I am glad that when I realized that it wasn't working, it would never work that I had an open door to return to where I should have never left.

I love my pastor and I support him. He is more than just a pastor he is like my father. I am glad that when I went to him and asked him to forgive me of the way I left and the things I said and did that he forgave. It is now like I never left. I won't leave now until God moves me somewhere else, but he will confirm to me that it is God. If my authority don't feel like it is the move to make then I will remain where I am and keep a right spirit.

Just for the record, my opinion on the "whys" of Tusla is shared with by my pastor.

A beautiful post.

I appreciate the spirit of humility shown here.

I too have walked the road of rebellion. But, even though there seemed to be an anointing on me, it was not that at all. It was only inspiration but little authority. When one is properly aligned with heavenly authority under subjection, submitting as unto the Lord, whether that above you is right or wrong, it matters not because you are submitted AS UNTO THE LORD.

I've learned that everything that RIPS AND SNORTS is neither anointed or has authority. There are a cow pen full of those that can huff and puff and seemingly blow your house down but there is nothing in it. Clouds but no rain. Well but no water. Wandering stars are as beautiful as they may be but they are out of control in the heavenlies.

Nigh unto blasphemy are the desensitized to holy order. That order may not be exactly what God has in mind in every case, but God will try your spirit. I don't agree with everything that the UPCI does, nor do I agree with their form of Government, but I am under strict submission to my Pastor, first of all. If he is wrong, God will deal with him. Meanwhile, I submit to him as unto the Lord. I also give my tithes to him as unto the Lord.

MY GOD! I FEEL THE HOLY GHOST! A beautiful witness of the Spirit that just bore within me.

IF this gang of six can be so flippant about holy things and holy order, how can they go to the pulpit, huffing and puffing about submission, obedience, brotherly love and true holiness...when they are themselves out of order...read "lawless?" Someone with proper authority needs to tell them to sit down and shut up until they learn the meaning of true humility. But, if someone were to do that, you would THEN really see WHAT MANNER OF SPIRIT they are of.

I'm telling you, everything that looks sooooooo holy can be anything BUT!

[NW Pastor]

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

Martin Luther also had some VERY legitimate beefs with the Catholic church. He posted them on his door as Thesises for discussion. He did not leave, he was issued a papal bull (told to shutup), which he burned, then was excommunicated.

The church threw him out because they could not tolerate the light he was shining on their sinful activities.

Did the UPC tolerate the conservative questioning of methods and theologies? To my knowledge there was never any interferance. We have always been free to nail our 95 Thesises to the doors of our churches without fear of dismissal as long as our spirits are right, and we don't try to rip the organization apart.

[Praxeas]

Martin Luther also had some VERY legitimate beefs with the Catholic church. He posted them on his door as Thesises for discussion. He did not leave, he was issued a papal bull (told to shutup), which he burned, then was excommunicated.

The church threw him out because they could not tolerate the light he was shining on their sinful activities.

Did the UPC tolerate the conservative questioning of methods and theologies? To my knowledge there was never any interferance. We have always been free to nail our 95 Thesises to the doors of our churches without fear of dismissal as long as our spirits are right, and we don't try to rip the organization apart.
Exactly...the RCC had doctrines that were binding on all members that ML could not agree with. He spoke out against them, but he did not leave.

In the UPC case there was on doctrine (teaching). Our doctrine stands intact. This was a church organizational code which was infact NOT binding on anyone.

[ReformedDave]

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

In essence I think I agree. But when does one leave?

[embonpoint]

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

You make several errant assumptions

1. That the UPC is a hierarchal organization as the RCC was. Does this make the GS on a par with the Pope. Does he speak Ex Cathedra?

2. That the UPC hierarchy represents divine authority.

3. That if men do not submit to an organization that they are not submitted to spiritual authority.

4. That John Wesley and Martin Luther are the examples Apostolic ministries should follow.

Oh well..... Why am I not surprised?

[Joseph Miller]

3. That if men do not submit to an organization that they are not submitted to spiritual authority.




I believe that when you join an organization you are submitting yourself to the spiritual authority of those in that organization which are above you such as presbyter, DS and GS.

[Felicity]

I believe that when you join an organization you are submitting yourself to the spiritual authority of those in that organization which are above you such as presbyter, DS and GS.Some are of the opinion that those men are not your spiritual authority.

[Apprehended]

You make several errant assumptions

1. That the UPC is a hierarchal organization as the RCC was. Does this make the GS on a par with the Pope. Does he speak Ex Cathedra?

There is no comparrison. No, the DS does not speak, nor does he claim to speak ExCathedra.

2. That the UPC hierarchy represents divine authority.

There are principles of submission that cannot be denied.

3. That if men do not submit to an organization that they are not submitted to spiritual authority.

Not just any organization...just the organization that they recognized as authority to which they made submissions in times past...whether it is in fact divine or not. There is something about submission to authority whether it is send down from heaven in the exact form as it should be or not that qualifies a man of God.

4. That John Wesley and Martin Luther are the examples Apostolic ministries should follow.

In the case of John Wesley that I mentioned, yes, I held him up as a godly example to Apostolic ministries. Impotent Apostolic ministers are incapable of following that godly example, that great preacher of holiness and righteousness.

Oh well..... Why am I not surprised?

So tell me. Why are you not surprised?

[Joseph Miller]

Some are of the opinion that those men are not your spiritual authority.


I understand that. I am of a different opinion, which one is right? I don't know. I just know how I feel.

[Apprehended]

Martin Luther also had some VERY legitimate beefs with the Catholic church. He posted them on his door as Thesises for discussion. He did not leave, he was issued a papal bull (told to shutup), which he burned, then was excommunicated.

The church threw him out because they could not tolerate the light he was shining on their sinful activities.

Did the UPC tolerate the conservative questioning of methods and theologies? To my knowledge there was never any interferance. We have always been free to nail our 95 Thesises to the doors of our churches without fear of dismissal as long as our spirits are right, and we don't try to rip the organization apart.

Amen. Very good post.

There has always been freedom and much latitude among the ministry of the UPC as seen from the very formation to express and to nail as many Thesises as they desire, to the church house door. It has been done many times and in very straight forward fashion. My first experience with that was in a business meeting in Little Rock Ark during a Gen. Conference. I remember a Memphis pastor by the name of E. E. McNatt nailed his thesises to the wall with a railroad spike, using a sledge hammer. Give and take pursued. In the end, there was no break up. Humility and brotherly love prevailed. It has happened many times. But, it takes big spirits, large hearts and at least a little kernel of the love of God for it to happen as it should.

[Apprehended]

In essence I think I agree. But when does one leave?

I believe that John Wesley is a godly example for all to follow. Holy living, righteous judgment and heaven born preaching accompanied with the Holy Ghost and fire, standing on the Word of God will either stir up the fellowship that you are in or as in the case of John Wesley and others, it will make you persona-non-gratta, in which case you might expect a writ of excommunication. That is the godly way. I am not speaking of becoming an agitating nut ball either. That will also get you a personal walk to the church door.

[pelathais]

Amen. Very good post.

There has always been freedom and much latitude among the ministry of the UPC as seen from the very formation to express and to nail as many Thesises as they desire, to the church house door. It has been done many times and in very straight forward fashion. My first experience with that was in a business meeting in Little Rock Ark during a Gen. Conference. I remember a Memphis pastor by the name of E. E. McNatt nailed his thesises to the wall with a railroad spike, using a sledge hammer. Give and take pursued. In the end, there was no break up. Humility and brotherly love prevailed. It has happened many times. But, it takes big spirits, large hearts and at least a little kernel of the love of God for it to happen as it should.

Into what did he drive the railroad spike? Just wondering. I think I heard that story long ago but was given no details.

[ReformedDave]

I believe that John Wesley is a godly example for all to follow. Holy living, righteous judgment and heaven born preaching accompanied with the Holy Ghost and fire, standing on the Word of God will either stir up the fellowship that you are in or as in the case of John Wesley and others, it will make you persona-non-gratta, in which case you might expect a writ of excommunication. That is the godly way. I am not speaking of becoming an agitating nut ball either. That will also get you a personal walk to the church door.

One must stay until he is excommunicated? How about when the church ceases to be one?

[Apprehended]

Into what did he drive the railroad spike? Just wondering. I think I heard that story long ago but was given no details.

I simply used that as a metaphor to underscore how forcefully, how powerfully he drove home his opposition to a matter under discussion in a business meeting then. Though the matter under discussion has long been forgotten by me, the man, the power and force of personality in driving home that point was like Martin Luther's nail, but in this case, a railroad spike.

[Apprehended]

One must stay until he is excommunicated? How about when the church ceases to be one?

Stay and preach until the church IS one. If there is no repentance, the preacher of righteosness will be stoned. Later his tombstone will be garnished with laruels of fond memories. The preacher of righteosness may indeed lose his head in the house of backslidden Herods.

[pelathais]

I simply used that as a metaphor to underscore how forcefully, how powerfully he drove home his opposition to a matter under discussion in a business meeting then. Though the matter under discussion has long been forgotten by me, the man, the power and force of personality in driving home that point was like Martin Luther's nail, but in this case, a railroad spike.
Oh, thanks. I did know an elderly gentleman who did that literally and briefly became something of a folk hero. Though he used scotch tape.

[Thinking]

Reformed Dave,

Where do you believe your father would have fit into all this?

[Felicity]

Stay and preach until the church IS one. If there is no repentance, the preacher of righteosness will be stoned. Later his tombstone will be garnished with laruels of fond memories. The preacher of righteosness may indeed lose his head in the house of backslidden Herods.Whoa!

[ReformedDave]

Stay and preach until the church IS one. If there is no repentance, the preacher of righteosness will be stoned. Later his tombstone will be garnished with laruels of fond memories. The preacher of righteosness may indeed lose his head in the house of backslidden Herods.

There comes a time when the church ceases to be one......

[Apprehended]

Reformed,

It was asked of you on the last page, "Where do you think that your father would have come down on this issue?"

[ReformedDave]

Reformed Dave,

Where do you believe your father would have fit into all this?

Many years ago a general sup. took a personal vendetta against my father and band him from speaking anywhere outside of his own local congregation. There were very FEW that stood with him (Clyde Haney and a couple of others did).
My dad almost left for the AMF. But providence had it's way and the GS died.

I believe with all my heart that my father would have stayed in the UPC today.

[Thinking]

Dave,

I miss him to this day. His wisdom and "presence" would be soothing oil in these treacherous times.

[Felicity]

There comes a time when the church ceases to be one......When and how does the church cease to be one?

[ReformedDave]

Dave,

I miss him to this day. His wisdom and "presence" would be soothing oil in these treacherous times.

Me too.......

[ReformedDave]

When and how does the church cease to be one?

When it changes from preaching the Gospel. In Luther's case he regarded the RCC as ceasing to be one.

[AGAPE]

ohhhh noooo
Agape's posting again....
:)
;)

Elected officials are not "divine authority" they are elected officials....

[Felicity]

many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action. Apprehended bro.....

What kind of devastation are you talking about?

[Felicity]

When it changes from preaching the Gospel. In Luther's case he regarded the RCC as ceasing to be one.But this would depend on what you interpret the Gospel as being I suppose. There are different ideas of what the Gospel is. ;) :)

[Apprehended]

Apprehended bro.....

What kind of devastation are you talking about?

When fellowship is broken, effort is fragmented, and the cohesive structure crumbles there is a great loss of strength in worldwide quest for souls. Further, when fellowship is broken there is untold amount of hurt, suspicion, distrust that is seen in so many ways even right down to famlies on each side of the diviide. The effects are so far reaching that it is impossible to quantify in one short note. It will take volumes to fully disclose the great hurt in the kingdom of God and famlies that is sure to follow.

[Felicity]

When fellowship is broken, effort is fragmented, and the cohesive structure crumbles there is a great loss of strength in worldwide quest for souls. Further, when fellowship is broken there is untold amount of hurt, suspicion, distrust that is seen in so many ways even right down to famlies on each side of the diviide. The effects are so far reaching that it is impossible to quantify in one short note. It will take volumes to fully disclose the great hurt in the kingdom of God and famlies that is sure to follow.I thought that this was the kind of destruction you were talking about and I know firsthand the negative effects that division and schism causes.

But the truth is, it happens. Has always happened and will continue to happen. God, of course sees it all and saw it all even before time began. And the Church continues on. Thank God for that. :thumbsup

[Apprehended]

ohhhh noooo
Agape's posting again....
:)
;)

Elected officials are not "divine authority" they are elected officials....

To whom there is no submission or accountability? Officials who have no divine responsibility to discharge in the execution of their official functions?

IF everyone felt like that, there would be no accountability or authority found anywhere. Every joker could do as he very well pleased without any concern for being called into account. There are far too many lawless and loose cannons running around having no authority over them that do the cause of God no good nor do they any good to themselves except to gratify their own rebellious FLESH.

But, elected officials are recognized to have a certain authority in whom there is power vested by the constituents to whom submission is expected and...it is right. That, regardless of the structure, becomes divine authority when someone submits to it in humility and brotherly love.

[stmatthew]

When the sin of politics enter into the org, it ceases to be divine. The bible speaks that we are to be subject one to another. I believe that means that those that are close to us should be the ones we subject ourselves to and be accountable to. They are the ones that know us in our private and personal life, and can be more objective in speaking words of restoration and reconciliation, and at times words of rebuke and correction to us when we need it. A DS that may only know your name will not be a good person to be holding you accountable.


I could also add to the above that there are times that the System is defective, as it is in TN, and accountability becomes subjective to who you know.

[ReformedDave]

When the sin of politics enter into the org, it ceases to be divine. The bible speaks that we are to be subject one to another. I believe that means that those that are close to us should be the ones we subject ourselves to and be accountable to. They are the ones that know us in our private and personal life, and can be more objective in speaking words of restoration and reconciliation, and at times words of rebuke and correction to us when we need it. A DS that may only know your name will not be a good person to be holding you accountable.


I could also add to the above that there are times that the System is defective, as it is in TN, and accountability becomes subjective to who you know.

Are you saying that politics is sinful or that it can become sinful?

[ReformedDave]

But this would depend on what you interpret the Gospel as being I suppose. There are different ideas of what the Gospel is. ;) :)

True. I would hope the organization in which you belong promotes the gospel in which you believe.

[stmatthew]

Are you saying that politics is sinful or that it can become sinful?

Can become. To me politics is a vehicle that if used by men of integrity can promote a cause to greatness. But the danger is that the vehicle can become the thing promoted instead of the cause. And then there is the issue of to often power corrupting the men driving the vehicle.

[Apprehended]

When the sin of politics enter into the org, it ceases to be divine. The bible speaks that we are to be subject one to another. I believe that means that those that are close to us should be the ones we subject ourselves to and be accountable to. They are the ones that know us in our private and personal life, and can be more objective in speaking words of restoration and reconciliation, and at times words of rebuke and correction to us when we need it. A DS that may only know your name will not be a good person to be holding you accountable.


I could also add to the above that there are times that the System is defective, as it is in TN, and accountability becomes subjective to who you know.

The sin of politics is the key...

Politics is worldly. It is not sin but it is iniquity, being devoid of divine law. The craft of politcs is not God's way. Yet, we choose leaders to whom we are accountable to. That choosing becomes divine authority to which we must submit.

[ReformedDave]

The sin of politics is the key...

Politics is worldly. It is not sin but it is iniquity, being devoid of divine law. The craft of politcs is not God's way. Yet, we choose leaders to whom we are accountable to. That choosing becomes divine authority to which we must submit.

I guess we must define our terms. What do you me by "politics"? In Scripture we see godly men using politics in a noble fashion.

[ReformedDave]

Can become. To me politics is a vehicle that if used by men of integrity can promote a cause to greatness. But the danger is that the vehicle can become the thing promoted instead of the cause. And then there is the issue of to often power corrupting the men driving the vehicle.

I believe you are correct. There is always a danger with man involved but that should not keep us from being involved in a godly fashion.

[Apprehended]

I guess we must define our terms. What do you me by "politics"? In Scripture we see godly men using politics in a noble fashion.

Good point...

I should have noted that there is a difference in politics and politics.

Politics in one sense is the use of intrigue or strategy in obtaining any position of power or control, as in government or business. This is iniquity...out of the bounds of divine law. Lust for power will move one to use this form of politics. It is seen in ecclesiastical circles all the time.

Then, there is the politics of the art of persuasion. This is acceptable when it is done in humility and brotherly love, esteeming others above self. When bretheren come together with this disposition, it can then be said, "how good and pleasant it is..." Paul was in a politician in this sense. He said that he persuaded men. Yet he did not use intrigue and stealth to worm his way into power from the lust of holding office. It took a little political saavy to get my wife to marry me. :lol

The latter is godly, while the former is not. A fellowship that does not step across the bounds to use the former can be a powerful force for the cause of God. Nevertheless all power of is of God...including that of Hitler during his day. But, that is another discussion from which debate can have no end.

[Apprehended]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Pe 2:13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;


1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

No one is under any obligation to join a man made organization or denomination, but once you do, behave yourself and live according to the instructions given to you by the Apostle of the Lord here, and for the sake of Christ, the laws of the organization. These eccelesiastical magistrates ARE ordained of God for the purpose that they are placed there because there IS no power that is not ordained of God.

Once bound to those laws though it is not sin, it could become iniquitous when one operates outside the laws of Divine Love to engage in political intrigue and stealth for the sake of wordly power outside the kingdom laws of LOVE. To behave CONTRARY to those laws renders that malcontent a rebel against established, God ordained powers.

God knows that there is a lot of wicked, political intrigue that goes on in those denominations and organizations. To use those methods to gain power or advance an agenda is wicked. However, no one within that fellowship is compelled to participate in that wickeness. It is the way of WORLDLINESS which character we are told to love NOT. It will pass away and the LUST thereof along with it.

Meanwhile, rebellion is as wicked as it is the core of the spirit of a rebel to be a political animal in the darkest sense of intrigue and stealth. Flee from such for many of these appear before the unsuspecting eye as an angel (messenger) of light.

[Dan'D]

You must remember UPC left the Tulsa 6, not the other way around. Think about all the changes that have gone on in the UPC over the last 10 - 15 years if it had happen all at one time every person at that church would leave. But because it has happen over a period of time we don't think about it.

The Bible and what God expect from us has not changed but churches have changed.

The Tulse 6 has a great following and there belief is grounded in the Bible. Over the period of time a lot of you will be eating your own words.

The UPC is not meant to be the spiritual leaders of the churches as much as organizational leaders. Each Pastor must lead his own church. Bro Haney will not answer to god about the church I attend. My pastor will answer to God regarding the church I attend. This is how it was meant to be. This is bible God chose my pastor to lead my church. Bro Haney was voted in. The resolution was voted in. Each pastor has the obligation to determined what is right for his church. He must answer to God for that.

I have spoke with many of saint that say a good percentage of the people in there church have a TV in there home. The reason is the Pastor has not felt that is was that important. AS well as other standards. The UPC has changed and it would take a blind person not to see that.

So again I say ”the UPC left us.”

Dan’D

[OP_Carl]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Pe 2:13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;


1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

No one is under any obligation to join a man made organization or denomination, but once you do, behave yourself and live according to the instructions given to you by the Apostle of the Lord here, and for the sake of Christ, the laws of the organization. These eccelesiastical magistrates ARE ordained of God for the purpose that they are placed there because there IS no power that is not ordained of God.

Once bound to those laws though it is not sin, it could become iniquitous when one operates outside the laws of Divine Love to engage in political intrigue and stealth for the sake of wordly power outside the kingdom laws of LOVE. To behave CONTRARY to those laws renders that malcontent a rebel against established, God ordained powers.

God knows that there is a lot of wicked, political intrigue that goes on in those denominations and organizations. To use those methods to gain power or advance an agenda is wicked. However, no one within that fellowship is compelled to participate in that wickeness. It is the way of WORLDLINESS which character we are told to love NOT. It will pass away and the LUST thereof along with it.

Meanwhile, rebellion is as wicked as it is the core of the spirit of a rebel to be a political animal in the darkest sense of intrigue and stealth. Flee from such for many of these appear before the unsuspecting eye as an angel (messenger) of light.

Yes, indeed. So you admit that all those who sign their affirmation statement with NO INTENTION of abiding by it are full of lawlessness and iniquity, right?

Selective enforcement of the rules allowed such UPC preachers to go from being a cutting edge minority to a voting majority. It is just such iniquitous men that voted Res 4 in, right?

So therefore, the Tulsa 6 are FLEEING INIQUITY, right?

Or did you not really mean that part about behavior contrary to the laws indicating malcontention and rebellion?

This ain't the Catholic Church, friend.
An elected official thousands of miles away is not truly a spiritual authority over a local pastor.

Your underlying premise that the Tulsa 6 did not first attempt to foment change from within the UPC is utterly hysterical.
:killinme
Other than that, you write a good piece!

[stmatthew]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Pe 2:13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;


1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.


1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

No one is under any obligation to join a man made organization or denomination, but once you do, behave yourself and live according to the instructions given to you by the Apostle of the Lord here, and for the sake of Christ, the laws of the organization. These eccelesiastical magistrates ARE ordained of God for the purpose that they are placed there because there IS no power that is not ordained of God.

Once bound to those laws though it is not sin, it could become iniquitous when one operates outside the laws of Divine Love to engage in political intrigue and stealth for the sake of wordly power outside the kingdom laws of LOVE. To behave CONTRARY to those laws renders that malcontent a rebel against established, God ordained powers.

God knows that there is a lot of wicked, political intrigue that goes on in those denominations and organizations. To use those methods to gain power or advance an agenda is wicked. However, no one within that fellowship is compelled to participate in that wickeness. It is the way of WORLDLINESS which character we are told to love NOT. It will pass away and the LUST thereof along with it.

Meanwhile, rebellion is as wicked as it is the core of the spirit of a rebel to be a political animal in the darkest sense of intrigue and stealth. Flee from such for many of these appear before the unsuspecting eye as an angel (messenger) of light.

So are you saying that all those years ago that you were in rebellion when you scratched your name off of that letter for the preacher??

[Apprehended]

So are you saying that all those years ago that you were in rebellion when you scratched your name off of that letter for the preacher??

Now you have quit preaching and started meddlin' :lol

If you will remember, it was only a request from the pastor. Nevertheless, it would not have been a request that I opposed...even then...IF, I had not been warned in advance.

[stmatthew]

Now you have quit preaching and started meddlin' :lol

If you will remember, it was only a request from the pastor. Nevertheless, it would not have been a request that I opposed...even then...IF, I had not been warned in advance.

So there are times when one is going to have to separate, or even oppose, their "authority", right. I believe it is to be done in a right spirit. I personally believe that there are times that it is Gods will that there be a separation, as in the case of Paul and Barnabas.

I am all for being submitted to the authority over you. But I feel like you are making it a blanket statement, and there is never, ever any time when one would pull away from their authority. I do not agree. The apostolic movement of the 20th century was birthed out of men leaving the authority for what they believed was right.

[Apprehended]

Yes, indeed. So you admit that all those who sign their affirmation statement with NO INTENTION of abiding by it are full of lawlessness and iniquity, right?

Selective enforcement of the rules allowed such UPC preachers to go from being a cutting edge minority to a voting majority. It is just such iniquitous men that voted Res 4 in, right?

So therefore, the Tulsa 6 are FLEEING INIQUITY, right?

Or did you not really mean that part about behavior contrary to the laws indicating malcontention and rebellion?

This ain't the Catholic Church, friend.
An elected official thousands of miles away is not truly a spiritual authority over a local pastor.

Your underlying premise that the Tulsa 6 did not first attempt to foment change from within the UPC is utterly hysterical.
:killinme
Other than that, you write a good piece!

If you are a Tulsaite, instead of making this GRAND exit reminscent of the Kruchechev walk out at the UN, why not bring the Word of God to bear in such a powerful way within the present fellowship that it will call ALL to repentance, thereby saving far more than the exiting few who are ALREADY saved?

Remember, IF it truly is the Word of God that you bring to bear on the issue within the current fellowship, IT (the Word) is quick, powerful and sharper than any two edged sword... Rememeber, IF it is truly the Word of God, IT will accomplish that wherein it was sent...not returning VOID.

So, in light of the TRUTH of the power of the Word...WHY NOT SAVE THE REST OF US LOST SOULS?

[stmatthew]

If you are a Tulsaite, instead of making this GRAND exit reminscent of the Kruchechev walk out at the UN, why not bring the Word of God to bear in such a powerful way within the present fellowship that it will call ALL to repentance, thereby saving far more than the exiting few who are ALREADY saved?

Remember, IF it truly is the Word of God that you bring to bear on the issue within the current fellowship, IT (the Word) is quick, powerful and sharper than any two edged sword... Rememeber, IF it is truly the Word of God, IT will accomplish that wherein it was sent...not returning VOID.

So, in light of the TRUTH of the power of the Word...WHY NOT SAVE THE REST OF US LOST SOULS?

So you believe Haywood and Goss should have stayed in the AoG?

[Apprehended]

So there are times when one is going to have to separate, or even oppose, their "authority", right. I believe it is to be done in a right spirit. I personally believe that there are times that it is Gods will that there be a separation, as in the case of Paul and Barnabas.

I am all for being submitted to the authority over you. But I feel like you are making it a blanket statement, and there is never, ever any time when one would pull away from their authority. I do not agree. The apostolic movement of the 20th century was birthed out of men leaving the authority for what they believed was right.

If you will recall how the Apostolic movement (as we know it) pulled out of the AOG in 1915 (if I recall the date) it was not over a mundane resolution that did not affect anyone's salvation as does the codified doctrine of Trinity.

The Oneness (New Issue) men that walked out of the Conference in Arkansas did not walk out until it was seen that there was ABSOLUTELY no way to further work within the structure after the doctrine of the Trinity was firmly ensconced within its creed. Even then, some still tried.

They had been preaching the Oneness message within the AOG for many months, far and wide, drawing converts to the message until at last, there was not more possible way to work within the AOG.

Their exit was a godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble way that the gang of Tulsaites would do well to imitate. Even after their exit, they continued their efforts to reach out to their Trinitarian "bretheren" with love for decades afterwards.

[Apprehended]

So you believe Haywood and Goss should have stayed in the AoG?

See my last post.

[OP_Carl]

So, in light of the TRUTH of the power of the Word...WHY NOT SAVE THE REST OF US LOST SOULS?

They have already forsaken us, having loved this present world.

Love of television is a perfectly acceptable litmus test to me. I agree with the precept of suspecting anybody that wants that garbage, designed with malice aforethought to corrupt and pervert minds and turn people away from God, poured into their homes, their minds, and their children's minds.

[Apprehended]

I also want to point out that the SPIRIT involved in a SPLIT is as ugly, bloody, murderous, and as ungodly as anything can be. I've seen too many church splits to not KNOW what I am talking about.

This Tulsa gang that chooses to walk this road may well do so but they must KNOW that the SPIRIT of the the SPLIT will also walk with them, RIGHT INTO THEIR OWN CHURCHES.

Many of these men are DESTINED to wring their hands, walking the floor at night as they watch with horror as their own churches split without them able to control it in the least. While they are wringing their hands lamenting their SPLIT, let them then REMEMBER that it is the spirit of the split that they had close FELLOWSHIP with from the beginning.

The core of the spirit of the SPLIT IS MURDER. According to Jude, it is the WAY OF CAIN.

So, who wants to talk about HOLINESS?

[Apprehended]

They have already forsaken us, having loved this present world.

Love of television is a perfectly acceptable litmus test to me. I agree with the precept of suspecting anybody that wants that garbage, designed with malice aforethought to corrupt and pervert minds and turn people away from God, poured into their homes, their minds, and their children's minds.

ESSENTIALLY, you are correct. But the method of the SPLIT is not correct. There is a remedy for sin, if what you see is indeed sin...PREACH THE WORD to all of the rest of us that need it so badly. There is no restrictions in the UPC for preaching the Word. I know a lot of both district and general officials that would WELCOME you to step forward and PREACH against sin, exposing it from the Word of God.

[OP_Carl]

ESSENTIALLY, you are correct. But the method of the SPLIT is not correct. There is a remedy for sin, if what you see is indeed sin...PREACH THE WORD to all of the rest of us that need it so badly. There is no restrictions in the UPC for preaching the Word. I know a lot of both district and general officials that would WELCOME you to step forward and PREACH against sin, exposing it from the Word of God.

It wouldn't accomplish anything.

The church I attend hears teaching on the evils of television, from the Pastor, on average 2 or 3 times a month. Nevertheless, most have television and many have cable. I guess they just don't care, or figure that they can control it, or that the perils of their little bit of entertainment are overexaggerated. The spirit of Laodicea is upon the laity and ministry alike. People are bored with church, and bored with "the rules."

People are going to do what people want to do. And if people would rather get a few crude laughs than re-consecrate their lives, nothing that's said from the pulpit is going to change that.

We haven't made enough effort that each new generation of pentecostals raised in church receives their OWN revelation of key precepts and principles. When you have a family tradition, you have a boring list of rules. When you have your own walk with God and your own revelations, you have a love for holiness and separation.

We'd almost be better off starting out with a bunch of new converts that are already sick of the world and are ready to be taught about God.

It really is almost as though the multi-generationals are the ones yearning for more and more tastes of the world, and it is left to us that came to salvation as adults to stand against the things of this world.

[Apprehended]

OPC,

You have a very weak argument.

I do not believe in the impotence of the Word of God.

If there is something wrong with the soil to receive seed, then, PREACH the Word and prepare the soil.

The Word is not without POWER.

[OP_Carl]

Others would call it tilting at windmills.

A pessimist is just an optimist with experience.

[stmatthew]

I also want to point out that the SPIRIT involved in a SPLIT is as ugly, bloody, murderous, and as ungodly as anything can be. I've seen too many church splits to not KNOW what I am talking about.

This Tulsa gang that chooses to walk this road may well do so but they must KNOW that the SPIRIT of the the SPLIT will also walk with them, RIGHT INTO THEIR OWN CHURCHES.

Many of these men are DESTINED to wring their hands, walking the floor at night as they watch with horror as their own churches split without them able to control it in the least. While they are wringing their hands lamenting their SPLIT, let them then REMEMBER that it is the spirit of the split that they had close FELLOWSHIP with from the beginning.

The core of the spirit of the SPLIT IS MURDER. According to Jude, it is the WAY OF CAIN.


The funny thing is, the only spirit I have seen coming from the Tulsa deal IS one of men that simply feel they must follow their convictions and separate, because to do otherwise could ........ the future generation. The Ugly Spirit seems, for the most part, to be coming from those that venomously judge them to hell for following those convictions.

[Apprehended]

The funny thing is, the only spirit I have seen coming from the Tulsa deal IS one of men that simply feel they must follow their convictions and separate, because to do otherwise could ........ the future generation. The Ugly Spirit seems, for the most part, to be coming from those that venomously judge them to hell for following those convictions.

Hell? I don't remember seeing THAT word thrown around.

At any rate, I too would say that to "venomously judge them to hell for following convitions," is indeed an ugly spirit. That should not be so.

Be that it as it may, someone needs to tell the truth and start preaching the Word of God if they are SOOOOOOO much under conviction, rather than acting like Apostolic Infants that insist on THEIR way, or else...

If the future generation is damned it will not be because the T6 did not separate...gracious! If the future generations are damned, it will be because they did not preach the good Word of God that is impregnated with LIFE...eternal LIFE.

They don't need to be SPLITING, they need to take up the weapons of their warfare which are NOT CARNAL such as spliting, busting up, and acting like religious juveniles.

I got a plan! LIFT UP JESUS. There's something about that that will draw the whole world to Him. He is the answer to every human woe. Splitting up is NOT the answer to human malaise. The Word of God and lifting up JESUS rather than SELF...just plain old stinking, carnal SELF displayed by this charade is NOT the answer.

[bishoph]

If you will recall how the Apostolic movement (as we know it) pulled out of the AOG in 1915 (if I recall the date) it was not over a mundane resolution that did not affect anyone's salvation as does the codified doctrine of Trinity.

The Oneness (New Issue) men that walked out of the Conference in Arkansas did not walk out until it was seen that there was ABSOLUTELY no way to further work within the structure after the doctrine of the Trinity was firmly ensconced within its creed. Even then, some still tried.

They had been preaching the Oneness message within the AOG for many months, far and wide, drawing converts to the message until at last, there was not more possible way to work within the AOG.

Their exit was a godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble way that the gang of Tulsaites would do well to imitate. Even after their exit, they continued their efforts to reach out to their Trinitarian "bretheren" with love for decades afterwards.

And some of you talk about us Pentecostals revising history! My good friend you obviously need to go back and take Pentecostal History 101 again. When the Oneness brethren left the AOG it was NOT a friendly exit.

Lets look at some comparisons:

The AOG officially voted, making the doctrine of the trinity the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said doctrine if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The UPCI officially voted to allow TV advertising and broadcasting making it the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said stand if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The OP's (1915) took a stand for oneness doctrine and against trinitarian heresy.

The WPF has taken a stand for Doctrines of Holiness/Sanctification/Separation and against compromise

The Op's left and formed several groups each of which preached; Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost. They also taught Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

The Leadership of the WPF left to form a new group whose purpose is to perpetuate the preaching of Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost, while maintaining a strong stand on Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

When the OP's departed the AOG, they vehemently tried to persuade other brethren to join them, and were persecuted for doing so, and charged with being not only unethical, and power hungry, but heretical as well.

The WPF leaders and those who are following them have been accused of being unethical, power hungry, and in some cases heretical because of their Separation doctrine. (And they have not "vehemently" tried to get others to follow, they simply sent out invitations.)

The OP's exit was, as you termed it, "godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble" exit........on their part. But it was not viewed as such from the other side. They were accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they attempted to reach out to the "brethren" they were scandalized and cut off by those who did not agree with them doctrinally.

The WPF has in some manner, as you stated, repeated history. They have taken a stand for biblically held doctrinal beliefs, they have departed, and formed another group, they have been accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they have consistently stated their love for and willingness to work with their "brethren," they are being scandalized by those who do not agree with them.

Respectfully Submitted

[ReformedDave]

And some of you talk about us Pentecostals revising history! My good friend you obviously need to go back and take Pentecostal History 101 again. When the Oneness brethren left the AOG it was NOT a friendly exit.

Lets look at some comparisons:

The AOG officially voted, making the doctrine of the trinity the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said doctrine if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The UPCI officially voted to allow TV advertising and broadcasting making it the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said stand if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The OP's (1915) took a stand for oneness doctrine and against trinitarian heresy.

The WPF has taken a stand for Doctrines of Holiness/Sanctification/Separation and against compromise

The Op's left and formed several groups each of which preached; Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost. They also taught Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

The Leadership of the WPF left to form a new group whose purpose is to perpetuate the preaching of Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost, while maintaining a strong stand on Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

When the OP's departed the AOG, they vehemently tried to persuade other brethren to join them, and were persecuted for doing so, and charged with being not only unethical, and power hungry, but heretical as well.

The WPF leaders and those who are following them have been accused of being unethical, power hungry, and in some cases heretical because of their Separation doctrine. (And they have not "vehemently" tried to get others to follow, they simply sent out invitations.)

The OP's exit was, as you termed it, "godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble" exit........on their part. But it was not viewed as such from the other side. They were accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they attempted to reach out to the "brethren" they were scandalized and cut off by those who did not agree with them doctrinally.

The WPF has in some manner, as you stated, repeated history. They have taken a stand for biblically held doctrinal beliefs, they have departed, and formed another group, they have been accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they have consistently stated their love for and willingness to work with their "brethren," they are being scandalized by those who do not agree with them.

Respectfully Submitted

I don't understand how a secondary issue (non-salvational) is appropriate to leave the UPC over. I do realize that some will take issue with my 'secondary issue" distinction.

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE=bishoph;374173]And some of you talk about us Pentecostals revising history! My good friend you obviously need to go back and take Pentecostal History 101 again. When the Oneness brethren left the AOG it was NOT a friendly exit.

This is amazing, but not surprising.

Certainly I really enjoy pentecostal history and don't mind taking a refresher, even if it is Pentecostal History 101. Meanwhile, you not only need a refresher, you need the course, for the first time.

By the most part, it was a friendly exit. There were a couple of unpleasant events, notwithstanding. One such incident occured after Stanley Frodsham, D.W. Kerr, A.C. Collins and a few others forumatled their creed including the doctrine of the Trinity to stem the tide of of the New Issue...which almost swallowed up the AOG that was not based on doctrine at the time, except for the Holy Ghost baptism and the Finished Work of Calvary as espoused by William Durham, then deceased, from Chicago.

One unpleasant incident took place in St. Louis, either in 1915 or 1916, I forget which was when one of the Trinity proponents, T.K. Leonard if I recall, strongly opposed the Oneness bretheren attempt to neutralize the Trinity statement. Recalling G.T. Haywood's paper "Voice in the Wilderness," he referred to Haywood and associates' doctrine as hay, wood and stubble all of whom have a voice in the wilderness.

Brother Haywood was so angered by the statement that he stood up for a retort, but a brother sitting next to him pulled him back down to his seat tugging on his coat tail.

Yes, there was a few ugly incidents as this. But just like I said, the exit was with gentlemen kindness, brotherly love, humility and godliness. In fact, the Oneness bretheren sought ways to stay in the AOG,

When the Trinity creed was adopted in that meeting, the Oneness brethren retired to the vestibule to plan their next move with the sounds of the old Trinity Doxology ringing in their ears from the auditorium.

Many Oneness preachers continued preaching for the AOG for decades to come, including Howard Goss who was honored in the church he (AOG) started in Hot Springs right up until he died.

So, I would suggest that you study the Pentecostal History for yourself. You will see a much different picture than you currently have.

Lets look at some comparisons:

The AOG officially voted, making the doctrine of the trinity the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said doctrine if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

Trinity vs Oneness is a salvation issue.

The UPCI officially voted to allow TV advertising and broadcasting making it the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said stand if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

Which affilation is not a salvation issue. No one is forced to advertise on t.v. Trinity vs. Oneness IS a salvation issue.

The OP's (1915) took a stand for oneness doctrine and against trinitarian heresy.

Thank God!

The WPF has taken a stand for Doctrines of Holiness/Sanctification/Separation and against compromise

That's silly. There was no resolution proposed or passed that called upon any of you to compromise.

The Op's left and formed several groups each of which preached; Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost. They also taught Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

Good.

The Leadership of the WPF left to form a new group whose purpose is to perpetuate the preaching of Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost, while maintaining a strong stand on Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

Are you telling me that the Word of God is so impotent that a new denomination must be started in order to take a strong stand on these matters? That is outrageously silly.

When the OP's departed the AOG, they vehemently tried to persuade other brethren to join them, and were persecuted for doing so, and charged with being not only unethical, and power hungry, but heretical as well.

A charge???

Only a charge?

Well, let me cry a river of tears over a CHARGE.

Why don't these poor lil ol' persecuted men just grow up and not take an offense of a stupid charge?

The WPF leaders and those who are following them have been accused of being unethical, power hungry, and in some cases heretical because of their Separation doctrine. (And they have not "vehemently" tried to get others to follow, they simply sent out invitations.)

Accused? Is it true? If not, forget it. If so, then repent. Seems simple enough to me.

The OP's exit was, as you termed it, "godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble" exit........on their part. But it was not viewed as such from the other side. They were accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they attempted to reach out to the "brethren" they were scandalized and cut off by those who did not agree with them doctrinally.

Bringing division is the way I see it. If there was no division, why did they make such a showmanship grand exit?

The WPF has in some manner, as you stated, repeated history. They have taken a stand for biblically held doctrinal beliefs, they have departed, and formed another group, they have been accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they have consistently stated their love for and willingness to work with their "brethren," they are being scandalized by those who do not agree with them.

Respectfully Submitted

And so...

They got their little feelings hurt over a charge, got offended and saw that their only option is to SPLIT, being unable to uphold the blood stained banner among others who do not split a hair the exact same way as they would like for it to be split.

So, let's just amputate the body of Christ. Shall we begin with the head?

[Apprehended]

I don't understand how a secondary issue (non-salvational) is appropriate to leave the UPC over. I do realize that some will take issue with my 'secondary issue" distinction.

Amen, R.D.

That's the way I see it too.

Now concerning your "secondary issue," we might need to open a thread on that subject... :lol

I don't know if I can hold my own with you. You seem to be very bright. But, at least we can :stirpot

[Apprehended]

I also want to point out that the SPIRIT involved in a SPLIT is as ugly, bloody, murderous, and as ungodly as anything can be. I've seen too many church splits to not KNOW what I am talking about.

This Tulsa gang that chooses to walk this road may well do so but they must KNOW that the SPIRIT of the the SPLIT will also walk with them, RIGHT INTO THEIR OWN CHURCHES.

Many of these men are DESTINED to wring their hands while walking the floor at night as they watch with horror as their own churches split, while unable to control it or do anything about it. While they are wringing their hands lamenting the SPLIT happening in their own church, let them then REMEMBER that it is the SPIRIT of the split that they had close FELLOWSHIP with from the beginning.

The core of the spirit of the SPLIT IS MURDER. According to Jude, it is the WAY OF CAIN.

So, who wants to talk about HOLINESS?

I just thought that this was worth repeating even though I do not see anyone willing to say "amen," or to say, "you're nuts" either. I might even agree with the "you're nuts" part if they said it in a nice way. :lol

But nuts or not nuts, what I said above, will come to pass because I know the spirit behind this terrible travesty. That's why I thought the post was worth repeating.

[TalkLady]

When the sin of politics enter into the org, it ceases to be divine. The bible speaks that we are to be subject one to another. I believe that means that those that are close to us should be the ones we subject ourselves to and be accountable to. They are the ones that know us in our private and personal life, and can be more objective in speaking words of restoration and reconciliation, and at times words of rebuke and correction to us when we need it. A DS that may only know your name will not be a good person to be holding you accountable.


I could also add to the above that there are times that the System is defective, as it is in TN, and accountability becomes subjective to who you know.

:scoregood:scoregood

:thumbsup:thumbsup

:highfive

GREAT POST, STMATTHEW. You hit the nail on the head!!!

[TalkLady]

The funny thing is, the only spirit I have seen coming from the Tulsa deal IS one of men that simply feel they must follow their convictions and separate, because to do otherwise could ........ the future generation. The Ugly Spirit seems, for the most part, to be coming from those that venomously judge them to hell for following those convictions.

ANOTHER GREAT POST...I may not agree with everything about the "Tulsa Group" but I agree with this post.

[pelathais]

The funny thing is, the only spirit I have seen coming from the Tulsa deal IS one of men that simply feel they must follow their convictions and separate, because to do otherwise could ........ the future generation. The Ugly Spirit seems, for the most part, to be coming from those that venomously judge them to hell for following those convictions.
The many steps of questionable ethics taken by the "Tulsa men" in announcing and organizing is very problematic. And I'm being charitable when I say "questionable ethics." Some may say that "the end justifies the means," and that has been the rallying cry of those who have spent the last 50 years trying to drag the UPC in their own direction.

Now, for the first time, the UPC stood against those who were forcing their changes upon the rest of the organization and "the other side" has thrown their hands in the air and cried "No Fair!"

As far as "The Ugly Spirit" is concerned... well, deleted those examples because they are very ugly and I've mentioned it before. As so many others have said, those who already made up their minds (as you appear to have) won't be swayed by the facts.

And my attempts to prove my argument will probably only result in you banning yourself, and I would miss the sound of your voice. So, as they say, "Carry on."

[pelathais]

I just thought that this was worth repeating even though I do not see anyone willing to say "amen," or to say, "you're nuts" either. I might even agree with the "you're nuts" part if they said it in a nice way. :lol

But nuts or not nuts, what I said above, will come to pass because I know the spirit behind this terrible travesty. That's why I thought the post was worth repeating.
Proverbs 11:29 "He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart."

[Todd]

[QUOTE]

This is amazing, but not surprising.

Certainly I really enjoy pentecostal history and don't mind taking a refresher, even if it is Pentecostal History 101. Meanwhile, you not only need a refresher, you need the course, for the first time.

By the most part, it was a friendly exit. There were a couple of unpleasant events, notwithstanding. One such incident occured after Stanley Frodsham, D.W. Kerr, A.C. Collins and a few others forumatled their creed including the doctrine of the Trinity to stem the tide of of the New Issue...which almost swallowed up the AOG that was not based on doctrine at the time, except for the Holy Ghost baptism and the Finished Work of Calvary as espoused by William Durham, then deceased, from Chicago.

One unpleasant incident took place in St. Louis, either in 1915 or 1916, I forget which was when one of the Trinity proponents, T.K. Leonard if I recall, strongly opposed the Oneness bretheren attempt to neutralize the Trinity statement. Recalling G.T. Haywood's paper "Voice in the Wilderness," he referred to Haywood and associates' doctrine as hay, wood and stubble all of whom have a voice in the wilderness.

Brother Haywood was so angered by the statement that he stood up for a retort, but a brother sitting next to him pulled him back down to his seat tugging on his coat tail.

Yes, there was a few ugly incidents as this. But just like I said, the exit was with gentlemen kindness, brotherly love, humility and godliness. In fact, the Oneness bretheren sought ways to stay in the AOG,

When the Trinity creed was adopted in that meeting, the Oneness brethren retired to the vestibule to plan their next move with the sounds of the old Trinity Doxology ringing in their ears from the auditorium.

Many Oneness preachers continued preaching for the AOG for decades to come, including Howard Goss who was honored in the church he (AOG) started in Hot Springs right up until he died.

So, I would suggest that you study the Pentecostal History for yourself. You will see a much different picture than you currently have.



Trinity vs Oneness is a salvation issue.



Which affilation is not a salvation issue. No one is forced to advertise on t.v. Trinity vs. Oneness IS a salvation issue.



Thank God!



That's silly. There was no resolution proposed or passed that called upon any of you to compromise.



Good.



Are you telling me that the Word of God is so impotent that a new denomination must be started in order to take a strong stand on these matters? That is outrageously silly.



A charge???

Only a charge?

Well, let me cry a river of tears over a CHARGE.

Why don't these poor lil ol' persecuted men just grow up and not take an offense of a stupid charge?



Accused? Is it true? If not, forget it. If so, then repent. Seems simple enough to me.



Bringing division is the way I see it. If there was no division, why did they make such a showmanship grand exit?



And so...

They got their little feelings hurt over a charge, got offended and saw that their only option is to SPLIT, being unable to uphold the blood stained banner among others who do not split a hair the exact same way as they would like for it to be split.

So, let's just amputate the body of Christ. Shall we begin with the head?
Your spirit is really starting to show right there toward the end.

God. please save us all!!

[pelathais]

[quote=Apprehended;374216]
Your spirit is really starting to show right there toward the end.

God. please save us all!!
A plea for Universalism?

[Todd]

[quote=Todd;374653]
A plea for Universalism?

Overwhelming proof that anything can be spun or twisted in someone's mind.

[Praxeas]

And some of you talk about us Pentecostals revising history! My good friend you obviously need to go back and take Pentecostal History 101 again. When the Oneness brethren left the AOG it was NOT a friendly exit.

Lets look at some comparisons:

The AOG officially voted, making the doctrine of the trinity the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said doctrine if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The UPCI officially voted to allow TV advertising and broadcasting making it the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said stand if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The OP's (1915) took a stand for oneness doctrine and against trinitarian heresy.

The WPF has taken a stand for Doctrines of Holiness/Sanctification/Separation and against compromise

The Op's left and formed several groups each of which preached; Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost. They also taught Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

The Leadership of the WPF left to form a new group whose purpose is to perpetuate the preaching of Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost, while maintaining a strong stand on Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

When the OP's departed the AOG, they vehemently tried to persuade other brethren to join them, and were persecuted for doing so, and charged with being not only unethical, and power hungry, but heretical as well.

The WPF leaders and those who are following them have been accused of being unethical, power hungry, and in some cases heretical because of their Separation doctrine. (And they have not "vehemently" tried to get others to follow, they simply sent out invitations.)

The OP's exit was, as you termed it, "godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble" exit........on their part. But it was not viewed as such from the other side. They were accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they attempted to reach out to the "brethren" they were scandalized and cut off by those who did not agree with them doctrinally.

The WPF has in some manner, as you stated, repeated history. They have taken a stand for biblically held doctrinal beliefs, they have departed, and formed another group, they have been accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they have consistently stated their love for and willingness to work with their "brethren," they are being scandalized by those who do not agree with them.

Respectfully Submitted
The AOG made it mandatory to believe and accept the Trinity as essential Christian doctrine....You HAD to believe it. HAD to teach it. Had to be Trinitarian

RES 4 did NOT require anyone to believe it is OK to advertise on TV. Did not force them to teach their church it was ok either....that was a terrible comparison Bishop

[Praxeas]

I don't understand how a secondary issue (non-salvational) is appropriate to leave the UPC over. I do realize that some will take issue with my 'secondary issue" distinction.
I agree with you. This is like saying if you don't agree with how the UPC elects officials you are going to hell.

It's one thing to take a stand. It's another to formulate a salvational doctrine out of it

[Apprehended]

Proverbs 11:29 "He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart."

I seem to have missed this post.

I appreciate you posting this verse of scripture. I have not had cause to meditate on it for a long time. But now, it is a very appropriate scripture to do some meditating upon.

A wind blows, like loose sand in the wind...there they go. Inheriting the wind, tossed, having no cohesion to the rock, gone like sand with a strong blow, following after leaders posing as angels (messengers) of light.

I can see it as plainly as I can see anything. Many of these Pastors that run after this phantom of superficial holiness are going to witness the spirit of that thing active in their own churches. Some, if not many of these pastors are going to watch as, like the sand in the wind, their own churches are going to erode away to nothing.

My advice to those pastors...Either have some good strong investments socked away that you can live on, or have a good trade or skill so that you can go find a job. Some of you are going to need it when the support that you've rested on from the church is all eroded away...like the shifting sand in the wind.

The foolishness of your action will be to inherit the wind.

[bishoph]

I seem to have missed this post.

A wind blows, like loose sand in the wind...there they go. Inheriting the wind, tossed, having no cohesion to the rock, gone like sand with a strong blow, following after leaders posing as angels (messengers) of light.

Apprehended, while I do not know you, I have enjoyed reading many of your posts on a myriad of subjects. However, I have respectfully disagreed with many of the things you have posted in regard to the WPF and its leadership. This post IMO went way over the top. The scripture you allude to is one which refers to the "ministers of satan being transformed into angels of light," that is quite a heavy charge and one that I cannot excuse.

To state opinions about an organization, a group of men, or an individual is one thing, however you are now doing what you have charged these good men of. You are stating your spiritual superiority and condemning them for their alleged wickedness. While you may be bitter with them or take issue with their beliefs, these men are good men who have decided to pursue a new direction for themselves and others who wish to join them.

With regard to this issue I have read your posts declaring that if they were indeed preachers of righteousness they should have stayed and preached the Word until either everyone was convicted and transformed by their message, or until they were kicked out. But what about the biblical notion that if these men are, as you propose, fallen from grace and in rebellion to the Word of God, are you not mandated by scripture to refrain from speaking evil of them (IMO calling someone a minister os satan is speaking evil of them) seeking rather to restore such a one in the spirit of meekness? If indeed these men are as vile as you propose, should you not seek to "save" them from themselves and the sin they are committing?

[Apprehended]

Apprehended, while I do not know you, I have enjoyed reading many of your posts on a myriad of subjects. However, I have respectfully disagreed with many of the things you have posted in regard to the WPF and its leadership. This post IMO went way over the top. The scripture you allude to is one which refers to the "ministers of satan being transformed into angels of light," that is quite a heavy charge and one that I cannot excuse.

To state opinions about an organization, a group of men, or an individual is one thing, however you are now doing what you have charged these good men of. You are stating your spiritual superiority and condemning them for their alleged wickedness. While you may be bitter with them or take issue with their beliefs, these men are good men who have decided to pursue a new direction for themselves and others who wish to join them.

With regard to this issue I have read your posts declaring that if they were indeed preachers of righteousness they should have stayed and preached the Word until either everyone was convicted and transformed by their message, or until they were kicked out. But what about the biblical notion that if these men are, as you propose, fallen from grace and in rebellion to the Word of God? Are you not mandated by scripture to refrain from speaking evil of them (IMO calling someone a minister os satan is speaking evil of them) seeking rather to restore such a one in the spirit of meekness? If indeed these men are as vile as you propose, should you not seek to "save" them from themselves and the sin they are committing?

Bishop...

You are absolutely RIGHT.

That was indeed over the top. Sometimes, while digging in the alluvial soil of reason one can work up more heat with their sweat than light to see how to dig.

Thanks for the correction, my brother. I apologize.

As I said before, I do get carried away with my passions now and then, but I am quick to change direction after seeing the light and getting knocked from my high horse on my personal road to Damascus.


Again, thank you.

[pelathais]

Overwhelming proof that anything can be spun or twisted in someone's mind.
Hey thanks for being there for me Todd!

[Apprehended]

Hey thanks for being there for me Todd!

:lol :lol :lol

Oh, what would we do...! Oh, what would we do...! Oh, what would we do without them? :lol

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

When the sin of politics enter into the org, it ceases to be divine. The bible speaks that we are to be subject one to another. I believe that means that those that are close to us should be the ones we subject ourselves to and be accountable to. They are the ones that know us in our private and personal life, and can be more objective in speaking words of restoration and reconciliation, and at times words of rebuke and correction to us when we need it. A DS that may only know your name will not be a good person to be holding you accountable.


I could also add to the above that there are times that the System is defective, as it is in TN, and accountability becomes subjective to who you know.

A speaker of truth!

[Felicity]

True. I would hope the organization in which you belong promotes the gospel in which you believe.The gospel ... the good news .... is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and what that achieved for us as sinners, lost and without hope and destined to a lost eternity without Christ and the transforming power of His Spirit.

I would hope that any Oneness Pentecostal organization or fellowship believes that! :thumbsup

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

The gospel ... the good news .... is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and what that achieved for us as sinners, lost and without hope and destined to a lost eternity without Christ and the transforming power of His Spirit.

I would hope that any Oneness Pentecostal organization or fellowship believes that! :thumbsup

This is absolutely, positively true.

[Apprehended]

Several years ago involving a very unique incident, I come to realize that the lust for power and control is as controlling, demanding, overwhelming as is the lust for perverted sex. It is beyond the power of those who are under its spell to resist it. So it is for those who are under the driving force of lust for power and control. They cannot help it any more than a sex addict can help it.

While this is so true, it is beyond the imagination of the rest of us rank and file to fully grasp or comprehend the quality and value of the effects created by the driving force of those possessed of that lust. Time alone will not reveal the whole. Eternity will be the final judge, but it will be too late for the millions of souls that will never be reached as a result of the fragmentation and corruption of unity surrounding the Jn 3:5/Acts 2:38/Gal 1:9 message. When the cohesion of the body of Christ is fragmented, the greatest result is the loss of vitality of the quest for the lost.

Once, I read a report of the great regret of a sex addict who violated a very young girl, driven by his overwhelming lust which he fully satiated upon his defensless victim. His power over the young girl was irrisistable to the point that she was forced to submit to the lust driven man. Though the man was remorseful over his action, looking back on it, but at the time, he had no power to resist his own lustful drive.

Many will be the unwilling victims of this lust for power and control that is driving this evil fragmentation. The consequences of this grab for power and control will be far greater than that of the rape victim of a young girl. Most who are contributing to these TULSA threads seem to have little comprehension of the far, far reaching ramifications upon the body of Christ and the fragmented and wasted power of UNITY upon a world dying without the ONLY plan of salvation that will save the lost. Yet, they feel sooooo holy for contending for the most mundane issue by comparison.

Personally, I do not know if I am disgusted, revolted, and resentful any more than I am personally hurt by betrayed confidence in men in whom I had the highest regard. Like the little trusting rape victim who could no longer trust, I feel violated by this betrayed confidence that I had placed in these men.

Their mask is off and I am in shock and horror.

[WyoPastor]

Several years ago involving a very unique incident, I come to realize that the lust for power and control is as controlling, demanding, overwhelming as is the lust for perverted sex. It is beyond the power of those who are under its spell to resist it. So it is for those who are under the driving force of lust for power and control. They cannot help it any more than a sex addict can help it.

While this is so true, it is beyond the imagination of the rest of us rank and file to fully grasp or comprehend the quality and value of the effects created by the driving force of those possessed of that lust. Time alone will not reveal the whole. Eternity will be the final judge, but it will be too late for the millions of souls that will never be reached as a result of the fragmentation and corruption of unity surrounding the Jn 3:5/Acts 2:38/Gal 1:9 message. When the cohesion of the body of Christ is fragmented, the greatest result is the loss of vitality of the quest for the lost.

Once, I read a report of the great regret of a sex addict who violated a very young girl, driven by his overwhelming lust which he fully satiated upon his defensless victim. His power over the young girl was irrisistable to the point that she was forced to submit to the lust driven man. Though the man was remorseful over his action, looking back on it, but at the time, he had no power to resist his own lustful drive.

Many will be the unwilling victims of this lust for power and control that is driving this evil fragmentation. The consequences of this grab for power and control will be far greater than that of the rape victim of a young girl. Most who are contributing to these TULSA threads seem to have little comprehension of the far, far reaching ramifications upon the body of Christ and the fragmented and wasted power of UNITY upon a world dying without the ONLY plan of salvation that will save the lost. Yet, they feel sooooo holy for contending for the most mundane issue by comparison.

Personally, I do not know if I am disgusted, revolted, and resentful any more than I am personally hurt by betrayed confidence in men in whom I had the highest regard. Like the little trusting rape victim who could no longer trust, I feel violated by this betrayed confidence that I had placed in these men.

Their mask is off and I am in shock and horror.

Great Post!! I think you hit the nail on the head. Some of the people I know that went to Tulsa are just good, honest, sincere people, but others I know are after power.

[CaliG]

Great Post!! I think you hit the nail on the head. Some of the people I know that went to Tulsa are just good, honest, sincere people, but others I know are after power.

I personally think some of us here are way too concerned about this 'movement'. I heard a great message last evening, in person, by my pastor, one of our Assistant General Superintendents and he assured us that the UPCI is better and stronger than in years past--that even though a 'few' have left us, multiple times more than those have been licensed by the UPCI in that same time frame. Life goes on and God is still on the throne!

[Apprehended]

I personally think some of us here are way too concerned about this 'movement'. I heard a great message last evening, in person, by my pastor, one of our Assistant General Superintendents and he assured us that the UPCI is better and stronger than in years past--that even though a 'few' have left us, multiple times more than those have been licensed by the UPCI in that same time frame. Life goes on and God is still on the throne!

That's right. I agree.

However, my concern is not so much for the UPCI. They will be just fine. What is so sad is the heartbreak of broken famlies and fellowship, the churches robbed of the support and fellowship afforded them by such a wide fellowship.

I saw many who had stormed out of the UPCI when the AMF broke away. I saw many of them come back, broken, apologetic, restored but never the same. It is never a pretty picture. The loss is so great. Once these men exit under these circumstances, even if they do come back, which many will, nothing will ever be quite the same from then on. They will be greatly personally diminished. Their statue will never be as tall as before the exit.

My other concern is the spirit that follows those that are of the "I can do without you" mind set. That is the mindset that gets into a marriage that invariable leads to a divorce. That is a bad spirit. "I can make it just fine without you," is an independent spirit that will also seep into their congregations. No small consequence will follow those with such a ungodly spirit. Many people are affected by it.

[Dan'D]

Great Post!! I think you hit the nail on the head. Some of the people I know that went to Tulsa are just good, honest, sincere people, but others I know are after power.

I think you will find that with any group.

Dan'D

[Apprehended]

The spirit of the split:

Speaking of Lucifer, the devil, it is said in Eze 28:15, "Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

What was that iniquity?

It was PRIDE.

He who become known as the devil was one of the great angels in the beginning...an ark Angel equal to Michael and Gabriel in rank. But, look what PRIDE did for him. He looked around and became jealous of God receiving all the honor, glory and worship. He thought to lift himself up above the throne of God to receive for himself the same or greater adoration that God received.

In the effort of lifting himself up through PRIDE that became a work of iniquity, he CAUSED THE FIRST SPLIT. The first split was in heaven when one third, 33.3% of the angels there agreed with Lucifer. Lucifer led the split through pride which resulted in the work of iniquity.

God could not have PRIDE in heaven nor would he tolerate the work of iniquity and certainly would not have a SPLIT in heaven. The result was that God cast out Lucifer from heaven along with the SPLIT down to the earth. The spirit of the SPLIT that comes from pride, the lifting up of ones self is apparently very strong in the kingdom of God in the earth. The diabolical nature of it is still the work of INIQUITY.

Surely in the end, at the time of the harvest, the Lord will send forth his angels though out his kingdom and gather out all those that offend, that cause division, that lift themselves up by pride, all who are workers of iniquity.

Brothers, sisters, let us not follow after the spirit of the SPLIT. It is NOTHING but a work of the FATHER of lies, the first worker of INIQUITY so moved by the sin of PRIDE. This TUSLA thing is NOTHING but a ploy of the enemy to cause division, to lead off the unsuspecting by deceit. Let us beware of his devices. They are as old as creation itself.

[Apprehended]

No one seems to want to touch that last post. Did I touch a sensitive nerve? Has everyone been part of a split at one time or another?

[Sunni]

No one seems to want to touch that last post. Did I touch a sensitive nerve?

Perhaps because you are comparing LUCIFER to Men of God-! Agree or disagree with their reasons for starting the WPF- fine- but you do not know their hearts! These men have built churches, preached across this country, baptized, prayed with the lost, cried with the grieving, etc. and etc.... They made a stand on principles...you may not agree- I understand that...

But please...

Johnny Godair, Floyd Odom, Crawford Coon, Nate Wilson, Kenny Godair & Larry Booker...

Read that twice! These are the names of the men that you are laying such charges at their feet. This thread pushes the limits!

I truly understand disagreement with their actions. I understand being angry if you feel differently than them. I understand being protective of the UPC organization and speaking out. I understand even poking fun! ...this is a forum full of discussion, disagreement, and true and false information...

This should not be, however, an open platform to bash these men's hearts. Please note- God knows their hearts- you do not!

Please do one thing...PRETEND for a minute that you actually respect one of these six men...maybe one of them prayed you through, or stood by you when you laid a loved one in the grave, or preached a message that stirred your heart, or reached for you when all else quit, or came to your city and started a church when there was not one, or etc., etc, ..

...and then think how you would feel when some anonymous poster starts making the comparisons you have made in judgement of them. These are beloved Men of God by many...at least show some respect admidst your disagreements with them!

[NW Pastor]

You must remember UPC left the Tulsa 6, not the other way around. Think about all the changes that have gone on in the UPC over the last 10 - 15 years if it had happen all at one time every person at that church would leave. But because it has happen over a period of time we don't think about it.

The Bible and what God expect from us has not changed but churches have changed.

The Tulse 6 has a great following and there belief is grounded in the Bible. Over the period of time a lot of you will be eating your own words.

The UPC is not meant to be the spiritual leaders of the churches as much as organizational leaders. Each Pastor must lead his own church. Bro Haney will not answer to god about the church I attend. My pastor will answer to God regarding the church I attend. This is how it was meant to be. This is bible God chose my pastor to lead my church. Bro Haney was voted in. The resolution was voted in. Each pastor has the obligation to determined what is right for his church. He must answer to God for that.

I have spoke with many of saint that say a good percentage of the people in there church have a TV in there home. The reason is the Pastor has not felt that is was that important. AS well as other standards. The UPC has changed and it would take a blind person not to see that.

So again I say ”the UPC left us.”

Dan’D

I believe in the power of the local church, and that God's church is not necessarily a hierarchical organization. However, I would like to discuss a couple of points you made which I believe undermine your position.

1. Your pastor, unless he started the church or inherited it from his father or father-in-law, was elected. Did God choose him, or did the church board and members? In a HG filled church they should work together. Would you be willing to show how a church board and members are more in tuned with the purposes of God than God called preachers?

I wonder.

2. Show me where pastors are the final arbitor in all things.

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE=Sunni;389390]Perhaps because you are comparing LUCIFER to Men of God-! Agree or disagree with their reasons for starting the WPF- fine- but you do not know their hearts! These men have built churches, preached across this country, baptized, prayed with the lost, cried with the grieving, etc. and etc.... They made a stand on principles...you may not agree- I understand that...

No sir, I am not comparing THEM with the devil. Pride can be found in ANYONE'S heart. I am not above that temptation. I've been there. Done that. But, repented of it. I am very familiar with THAT form of iniquity. I guard my heart carefully because I know how subtle and deceiving it is.

But, the SPLIT, the ugly break up from a godly fellowship in the manner that it was done, IS the result of PRIDE. PRIDE is not the man himself, but it is the work of the enemy in the heart of men who believe the LIE.

But please...

Johnny Godair, Floyd Odom, Crawford Coon, Nate Wilson, Kenny Godair & Larry Booker...

Read that twice! These are the names of the men that you are laying such charges at their feet. This thread pushes the limits!

I truly understand disagreement with their actions. I understand being angry if you feel differently than them. I understand being protective of the UPC organization and speaking out. I understand even poking fun! ...this is a forum full of discussion, disagreement, and true and false information...

I am not in the least angry. I am not poking fun. Yes, I am very much hurt by men whom I had the HIGHEST respect for, and loved greatly. Yes, I fully disagree with the way that they have done things. It is clearly an exaltation of SELF, as far as I am concerned. I do not know all six but only four...three better than the fourth. Yet, I had great respect for the others that I did not know but known from a Conference pulpit.

This should not be, however, an open platform to bash these men's hearts. Please note- God knows their hearts- you do not!

I would have better understood their hearts if they would have gone to the G.C. weeping sounding the warning that the rest of us are on our way to perdition unless we repent of the resolution. In stead of performing in the role of a Prophet, a watchman on the wall, but a stealthy sneak to call out a following after themselves is not the role of the Prophet-Watchman. Men of THAT caliber walk alone.

Please do one thing...PRETEND for a minute that you actually respect one of these six men...maybe one of them prayed you through, or stood by you when you laid a loved one in the grave, or preached a message that stirred your heart, or reached for you when all else quit, or came to your city and started a church when there was not one, or etc., etc, ..

...and then think how you would feel when some anonymous poster starts making the comparisons you have made in judgement of them. These are beloved Men of God by many...at least show some respect admidst your disagreements with them!

That senario brings me to tears.

I would never, ever try to diminish their past work for God. I know that there will be souls in heaven that have been gleaned by their labors. Indeed, by imagination, I would place myself in the role of one on my way to heaven from the results of their labor. I would never offend such a one at that.

The very thing that you pointed out above is one of the reasons that I feel betrayed and very much hurt over their actions. The very idea of lifting up ONE'S OWN SELF to lead out a large following to separate from beloved bretheren who themselves gave all to built what they have hithertofore enjoyed in sweet fellowship is not only betrayal of THOSE brethreren but the betrayal of the SPIRIT of the prayer of Christ, that THEY ALL MAY BE ONE....

Judas had an ambitious mind. After having been with Christ for three or more years, seeing his power...even over nature itself, he could see the earthly overthrow of the Roman Empire by Jesus and His followers. He projected himself as the Treasurer in the newly formed earthly kingdom after the overthrow of the Roman government by Jesus. The SPIRIT OF THE SPLIT was born in Judas. He could see that all he had to do was ignite the split by pitting the Roman government and Jesus against each other.

Surely after he identified Jesus to the soldiers of the High Priest that conflict would ensue, the flash point would be ignited, the battle would begin, Jesus would overthrow the governments of the world and set up his kingdom here. Then, Judas would be the HERO. He would receive his place of honor, glory and be crowed with the laurels of his LUST. He would be in charge of the Kingdom of God Treasury.

To the horror of Judas, Jesus did not call down ten thousands of angels. To the utter displief of Judas, Jesus submitted to the High Priest's soldiers and to the Roman governement. Jesus showed all the rest of us the way...since He IS THE WAY. It is the way of the cross. It is the way of submission. It is the way of humility. To the astonishment of Judas, THE SPLIT did not occur. It did not happen. Judas, in grief, hung himself, though he deceived himself standing on a false principle...that of overthrowing the Roman Empire by which he justified his actions.

I wonder how the rest of the Apostles of Jesus felt looking upon the actions of Judas? I can only imagine. I know the grief that the rest of them must have felt. I know the disappointment. They could feel the pain of it all, but not to the extent that Jesus felt...his heart burst, turing his sweat into great drops of blood. At least Peter repented after weeping much. Jesus knew it, calling for Peter to come to him.

Failture is part of the human experience but unlike the devil, we CAN repent.

God bless you brother. I feel your heart. I know that you are true and sincere. I only wish that you could feel mine too.

[Sunni]

Apprehended,
First off- sister not brother! Sunni is "Sunneeeee" like the sunshine, not like a son...:nod

Second...You have been quite clear how you feel about these men... If you respected them in the past, why can't you understand...while disagreeing, that they are standing on their convictions. Once again, I implore- judge their actions if you must, but not their hearts....

Third... I have seen some of these men weeping and broken over this decision..., because they felt like they had to make a stand... They have lost finances from their speaking engagements in UPC, they have been the brunt of many, many ill-natured jokes, they have lost friends, they have lost respect from those who don't understand, they have lost a lot- yet they still made the stand. A stand, by the way, that does go way beyond 'resolution 4.

Even if you feel that they are Absalom, even if you feel they are in the wrong, this kingdom belongs to God.

I am a fourth generation UPC girl...I am a Bible College & Secular Grad, I am a minister's wife, I am the mother to one little girl...and now I am former UPC...I do not rejoice in that fact...I am heartbroken....Neither did I ever think that this day would come...But I also love the UPC, and want them to continue "reaching the whole world with the whole gospel." My love for many of the churches and ministers has not changed.

But I believe that there is a cause worth standing for, and I am not a spiritual sissie following the lead of Legalistic Dictators. Furthermore, I do not think that all of the UPC is 'going charismatic' etc., etc... I do, realize, as many do not- that the UPC is NOT the church...the foundation is not built on fellowships or organizations....

You- you have no respect for these men and you seem to know their hearts.

Me- I know them, their lives speak loudly to me, their burdens have been obvious to me, and their ministries...well, they are 'watchmen on the wall.'

They have cried danger.

I do not ignore their cry.

I have no issue wtih you, in fact, you and I would probably get along great in 'real' life...and once again, I even understand where you are coming from... I can fight just as passionately for things I believe in... You believe in the organization, you believe these men are doing that organization harm...truly, I get it...

However, this kingdom is God's- perhaps these men are not the Absalom's you think they are... Just perhaps, you are wrong...

In the end, we can be brothers and sisters and hold different cards in our hands.

I will address your issues you raised above when I have time...right now, I have a date with my husband....:crazyluv

God bless you - even if I disagree with you!!

[Jodell]

RETHINK ??? funny you should use that term . That is the term Robert Shuller is using to bring New Age teaching , Oprah Winfrey is in it and using her TV show to teach the (a course in miracles) concept which is opposite of what the Bible teaches .It is amazing to read teh list of names that attended his Rethink conference at the Crystal cathederal last month . The Christiasns say why do we need to RETHINK what God has said , he meant what He said then and now , He is the same yesterday ,today and forever.

[Apprehended]

RETHINK ??? funny you should use that term . That is the term Robert Shuller is using to bring New Age teaching , Oprah Winfrey is in it and using her TV show to teach the (a course in miracles) concept which is opposite of what the Bible teaches .It is amazing to read teh list of names that attended his Rethink conference at the Crystal cathederal last month . The Christiasns say why do we need to RETHINK what God has said , he meant what He said then and now , He is the same yesterday ,today and forever.

Unlike you, I know nothing of the teachings of Robert Shuller or Oprah Winfrey. I do not follow their teachings nor do I wish to. I have never attended anything at nor have I ever seen the Crystal Cathederal. Thank you, but I would just as soon not hear of it or to know anything about it.

The Word of God is my Anchor and Stay. I never said that we should rethink the WORD. Where did you get that idea from? Did you get it from Oprah Winfrey? I would advise you to stop listening to them. They cannot do you any good.

[Apprehended]

Sister Sunni...

I appreciate your words.

Like you, I am 5th generation Pentecost, having children who are also graduates of UPCI Bible colleges.

I am scheduled to catch a flight out of DFW this afternoon. I have little time to be here now but I want to respond to your last post at the first opportunity.

God bless you sister. I trust that your husband treated you like a queen on Valentine's day.

[Felicity]

Apprehended,
First off- sister not brother! Sunni is "Sunneeeee" like the sunshine, not like a son...:nod

Second...You have been quite clear how you feel about these men... If you respected them in the past, why can't you understand...while disagreeing, that they are standing on their convictions. Once again, I implore- judge their actions if you must, but not their hearts....

Third... I have seen some of these men weeping and broken over this decision..., because they felt like they had to make a stand... They have lost finances from their speaking engagements in UPC, they have been the brunt of many, many ill-natured jokes, they have lost friends, they have lost respect from those who don't understand, they have lost a lot- yet they still made the stand. A stand, by the way, that does go way beyond 'resolution 4.

Even if you feel that they are Absalom, even if you feel they are in the wrong, this kingdom belongs to God.

I am a fourth generation UPC girl...I am a Bible College & Secular Grad, I am a minister's wife, I am the mother to one little girl...and now I am former UPC...I do not rejoice in that fact...I am heartbroken....Neither did I ever think that this day would come...But I also love the UPC, and want them to continue "reaching the whole world with the whole gospel." My love for many of the churches and ministers has not changed.

But I believe that there is a cause worth standing for, and I am not a spiritual sissie following the lead of Legalistic Dictators. Furthermore, I do not think that all of the UPC is 'going charismatic' etc., etc... I do, realize, as many do not- that the UPC is NOT the church...the foundation is not built on fellowships or organizations....

You- you have no respect for these men and you seem to know their hearts.

Me- I know them, their lives speak loudly to me, their burdens have been obvious to me, and their ministries...well, they are 'watchmen on the wall.'

They have cried danger.

I do not ignore their cry.

I have no issue wtih you, in fact, you and I would probably get along great in 'real' life...and once again, I even understand where you are coming from... I can fight just as passionately for things I believe in... You believe in the organization, you believe these men are doing that organization harm...truly, I get it...

However, this kingdom is God's- perhaps these men are not the Absalom's you think they are... Just perhaps, you are wrong...

In the end, we can be brothers and sisters and hold different cards in our hands.

I will address your issues you raised above when I have time...right now, I have a date with my husband....:crazyluv

God bless you - even if I disagree with you!!I appreciate this post. It's come straight from your heart, I can tell.

[Mr. Steinway]

Sunni, I can't look at your avatar without thinking of the song, "Sunny", which was written by a friend of mine, Bobby Hebb! I sold him a Steinway grand piano. Great guy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjZaXn18kKY&feature=related

[Sunni]

Sunni, I can't look at your avatar without thinking of the song, "Sunny", which was written by a friend of mine, Bobby Hebb! I sold him a Steinway grand piano. Great guy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjZaXn18kKY&feature=related

Great talent!! Well, I'm glad I can bring you some good memories!! :thumbsup

[robert]

I personally think some of us here are way too concerned about this 'movement'. I heard a great message last evening, in person, by my pastor, one of our Assistant General Superintendents and he assured us that the UPCI is better and stronger than in years past--that even though a 'few' have left us, multiple times more than those have been licensed by the UPCI in that same time frame. Life goes on and God is still on the throne!

I don't think broad and wide should be the goal...but strait and narrow is the way that leadeth to eternal life. Many are called but few are chosen.