How Far Should The UPC Go to Appease Them?

[Nahum]

There are some who advocate the idea of appeasement.

The idea that the UPC should just allow dual membership with no questions asked.

That the UPC should stand by as its ministers and constituents are fed a line about a new "preferred Apostolic future/direction."



How far do you think the UPC should go to appease these men?

As a pastor, what would you do if a new and improved church opened up next door to you and solicited the members of the congregation you led?

[AGAPE]

the UPC is not a "church"

[Weary Pilgrim]

the UPC is not a "church"


Then in your opinion, what is it?
It'certainly is not "The church" but it is a church.

[scotty]

The WPF split because they don't feel the UPC is holding to the standards.

there are a couple of sayings I really like, "if you want a new pastor, pray for the one you have" and " if your church was perfect, you couldn't be a member"

It has been wonderfully posted on another thread that these men could have preached and prayed to make a difference within the UPC without the division.
I just finished watching the last of the BOTT dvd's. Funny thing is, the most of it was about adhering to what our elders taught, holding to the standards, etc.

I like some others am starting to think there is something else to this split

JMO

[bishoph]

Then in your opinion, what is it?
It'certainly is not "The church" but it is a church.

While I certainly do not seek to argue about the particulars of "the church" versus "a church," I would have to disagree with you in calling the UPCI a church.

IMHO the UPCI is a ministerial association which was founded for the sake of fellowship and the propagation of the Gospel to the whole world. In a legal sense it is a non-profit corporation, nothing less nothing more. There are individual ministers and churches which are associated and or affiliated with said corporation, the UPCI, however, is not a church as an entity within itself.

I personally think this is one of the problems that UPC "lifers" have at times, they cannot separate the fact that the UPCI corp/organization is not a church. This is because, to some extent, this has been implied if not taught on a national/international level.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

The WPF isn't trying to solicit members from the UPC churches to go to the WPF churches that are opening up across town... In fact I don't know of any new WPF churches that are opening up. Churches with UPC pastors are pulling out of the UPC, going WPF and making their churches affiliated with the WPF. On the WPF website it says they are NOT supposed to prosletize members of other Apostolic churches.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Jericho]

Are we having fun yet?????????

[Rev]

While I certainly do not seek to argue about the particulars of "the church" versus "a church," I would have to disagree with you in calling the UPCI a church.

IMHO the UPCI is a ministerial association which was founded for the sake of fellowship and the propagation of the Gospel to the whole world. In a legal sense it is a non-profit corporation, nothing less nothing more. There are individual ministers and churches which are associated and or affiliated with said corporation, the UPCI, however, is not a church as an entity within itself.

I personally think this is one of the problems that UPC "lifers" have at times, they cannot separate the fact that the UPCI corp/organization is not a church. This is because, to some extent, this has been implied if not taught on a national/international level.

There you go spoiling all of their fun. :toofunny

[jrLA]

I think the UPC needs to cut their losses so to speak. It is a travesty what has taken place. There is NO way these two can co-exist. No-way! I am not sure of the dynamics of it all, but, they should be forced to decided wither stay or leave! Not both!

[Dan'D]

I think the UPC needs to cut their losses so to speak. It is a travesty what has taken place. There is NO way these two can co-exist. No-way! I am not sure of the dynamics of it all, but, they should be forced to decided wither stay or leave! Not both!

UPC on the losing end.

Dan’D
:TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS:

[KarenJo]

The WPF isn't trying to solicit members from the UPC churches to go to the WPF churches that are opening up across town... In fact I don't know of any new WPF churches that are opening up. Churches with UPC pastors are pulling out of the UPC, going WPF and making their churches affiliated with the WPF. On the WPF website it says they are NOT supposed to prosletize members of other Apostolic churches.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex


The web site can say whatever it likes to say but that doesn't mean that it won't happen...they did most of their work prior to the "Tulsa" event...

[jrLA]

UPC on the losing end.

Dan’D
:TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS:

Well, maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully! The UPC is NOT on the losing end for sure! I think the UPC would be better off to get rid of those who are joining with the WPF. To me this is a no brainer!:TulsaNO::TulsaNO::TulsaNO::TulsaNO::Tulsa NO::TulsaNO::TulsaNO::stirpot:TulsaNO::TulsaNO:

[Joseph Miller]

The WPF split because they don't feel the UPC is holding to the standards.

there are a couple of sayings I really like, "if you want a new pastor, pray for the one you have" and " if your church was perfect, you couldn't be a member"

It has been wonderfully posted on another thread that these men could have preached and prayed to make a difference within the UPC without the division.
I just finished watching the last of the BOTT dvd's. Funny thing is, the most of it was about adhering to what our elders taught, holding to the standards, etc.

I like some others am starting to think there is something else to this split

JMO


GREAT post especially the part I underlined. I say that it will start in be exposed in a very short time. JMHO

[embonpoint]

Appeasement?
No Way!!!
Throw ‘em out I say!! :woohoo
Show ‘em who’s boss!

The UPC is a church and they need to be in submission to the Pastor.
After all the GS is the pastor of all the preachers in the UPC ….right??…
Oh wait… :huh
I heard the DS is pastor of all the pastors in the district …..but some DS’s have left
Maybe it is the Presbyter over the section???
I forget which it is….. :hmmm
maybe it is the Ass’t GS of my zone
But then what about my Executive Presbyter for the Zone?
Oh wait is it him or the Executive Presbyter for the region?

Maybe they’re all Co-Pastors. :dunno

It can get where a guy doesn’t even know who he is rebelling against.
But they’re rebellin’ against somethin’ so throw ‘em out! :ranting

And tell ‘em to take there dues and missions support with ‘em! :grumpy
They don’t give anything anyway.
Missionaries can just come home and deputize another year or so!

They can sell a few campgrounds and talk about how people don’t really want to go to camp anymore anyhow.
Cut salaries :evilglee
Sell HQ

And push anyone who sympathizes or fellowships with them right out the door too because they are the dividers, excluders and elitists that just keep stirring the pot

Maybe if the UPC gets rid of enough they will have churches every where.
If they throw everyone out just think how much easier it will be to double in a decade.

Yup great idea! Makes lots of sense to me. :confused:

Maybe those that pushed for res 4 the last few years can draft another unifying resolution for this year, outlawing the WPF and anyone else that left in the last 12 months.

Show those controllers who is boss! After all they’re the ones dividing!

Oh Brother!!!…….. :nuke

[John Mark]

How far do you think the UPC should go to appease these men? I don't think they can be appeased by the UPC. If they could have they would have stayed!

As a pastor, what would you do if a new and improved church opened up next door to you and solicited the members of the congregation you led? People are always excited about something new. Just give it time and if YOU have a right spirit YOUR spirit will show in time.

[Mr. Steinway]

How far do you think the UPC should go to appease these men? I don't think they can be appeased by the UPC. If they could have they would have stayed!

As a pastor, what would you do if a new and improved church opened up next door to you and solicited the members of the congregation you led? People are always excited about something new. Just give it time and if YOU have a right spirit YOUR spirit will show in time.

Their "love fest" with the UPCI will end once a UPCI church opens up in their neighborhood! :D

[RevBuddy]

Well, maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully! The UPC is NOT on the losing end for sure! I think the UPC would be better off to get rid of those who are joining with the WPF. To me this is a no brainer!:TulsaNO::TulsaNO::TulsaNO::TulsaNO::Tulsa NO::TulsaNO::TulsaNO::stirpot:TulsaNO::TulsaNO:

jrLA...I'm a little nervious, now!!!???? I agree with YOU!!!! Nice!!!

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

At least, that's the way I see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Draw4Tacos]

UPC on the losing end.

Dan’D
:TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS:

How can you possibly believe that the UPC is on the losing end of this? These men have been fomenting dissent among their rabid followers for quite some time now. If they werent so dishonorable in the way they are going about it, their exit would be a disappointing, but somewhat welcome relief to many.

Consider Proverbs 6:16-19

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

[jrLA]

jrLA...I'm a little nervious, now!!!???? I agree with YOU!!!! Nice!!!

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

At least, that's the way I see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea....I am getting nervous too! Oh wait, sorry for the exclamation point.:happydance

[Draw4Tacos]

The WPF isn't trying to solicit members from the UPC churches to go to the WPF churches that are opening up across town... In fact I don't know of any new WPF churches that are opening up. Churches with UPC pastors are pulling out of the UPC, going WPF and making their churches affiliated with the WPF. On the WPF website it says they are NOT supposed to prosletize members of other Apostolic churches.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

For the record, it is a known fact that the congregation of at least one of the "Tulsa 6" was built by active proselytization from other UPC churches in the area (and even from other states) over the course of many years.

[stmatthew]

Their "love fest" with the UPCI will end once a UPCI church opens up in their neighborhood! :D
My understanding is that this is already starting to happen.

[pelathais]

the UPC is not a "church"
Allegiance to the Articles of Faith and the Affirmation Statement seem to to be a big deal to some people when it suits them. And then they appear to throw these principles out the window when it doesn't suit them.

Are you saying that the United Pentecostal Church is "not a church" and therefore when men sign on the dotted line their signatures are meaningless?

[pelathais]

While I certainly do not seek to argue about the particulars of "the church" versus "a church," I would have to disagree with you in calling the UPCI a church.

IMHO the UPCI is a ministerial association which was founded for the sake of fellowship and the propagation of the Gospel to the whole world. In a legal sense it is a non-profit corporation, nothing less nothing more. There are individual ministers and churches which are associated and or affiliated with said corporation, the UPCI, however, is not a church as an entity within itself.

With respect bishop, "In a legal sense" every 501c(3) org is simply a not-for-profit organization. And this includes virtually every Apostolic "church" in North America. To use this line of reasoning, I take it that you would agree that proselytizing every Apostolic church is now available without any hint of criticism for those who do so? Where is your church, by the way? Maybe I should start contacting your saints with a focused effort at evangelizing them to a "better" way of thinking and having church.


I personally think this is one of the problems that UPC "lifers" have at times, they cannot separate the fact that the UPCI corp/organization is not a church. This is because, to some extent, this has been implied if not taught on a national/international level.

My take on this is that with the advance of the teachings of exclusivism by the so-called "Water & Spirit" proponents that a climate was created that caused many saints to say things like "the UPC is THE CHURCH." That was usually followed up by equivocations to include GIBs and and smaller OP orgs. But the general theme usually stood.

It was only among the ministery that clarifications were made about the org being "for the beneifit and fellowship of like minded ministers..." But when it really comes to it, the whole argument is obscured by a lot of quibbling and assertions from every angle over the years.

I think that to say now, that the UPC is "not a church" and thus is somehow excempt from the rules of proselytizing is disengenuous. Most of the same people who say that now are either eager to continue to sow discord or are sympathetic to those who do. Several years ago, these same folks would have been appalled by such behavior.

Just because their opinions have changed doesn't mean that eternal principles based upon the Word of God have changed as well.

[Nahum]

I still say the inconsistency, and the complete lack of ethics involved, is appalling.

These men would throw out every single person who violates one iota of the AOF if they could. In fact, that is the whole reason they are leaving. Because the UPC wouldn't enforce its own bylaws and throw the tv owners and sport-followers out.

Funny how they now say we should ignore dual membership in the interest of peace and brotherly love. They are violating the very thing they so vehemently tried to enforce - their precious uniformity agreement.

That's like the fox tellin' the farmer to leave him alone, because the chickens will squawk louder if he tries to stop him from stealin' 'em.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

With respect bishop, "In a legal sense" every 501c(3) org is simply a not-for-profit organization. .

I know of churches who did not file papers of incorporation, and are not seperate 501c organizations. It is not difficult.

I know of a man, an Apostolic Attorney who relished the thought of writing a set of District Bylaws from scratch to avoid some of the errors in many carbon copied Bylaws.

[DividedThigh]

character and lack of character will be eminated by the followers of the wpf and the upci in the next few months and years, and if you think proseytizing is over, honey it has only just begun, some of these guys have it down to a science, lol,dt:tvhappy

[AGAPE]

Allegiance to the Articles of Faith and the Affirmation Statement seem to to be a big deal to some people when it suits them. And then they appear to throw these principles out the window when it doesn't suit them.

Are you saying that the United Pentecostal Church is "not a church" and therefore when men sign on the dotted line their signatures are meaningless?

Upc is not a "church" it is an Org..
If I don't want to go by the rules I leave...


:TulsaNO: (as in Carmen)

[Nahum]

Upc is not a "church" it is an Org..
If I don't want to go by the rules I leave...


:TulsaNO: (as in Carmen)

Sounds like you have a problem with submission.

[TrmptPraise]

Sounds like you have a problem with submission.

Don't you love that thinking, PP? Hopping from one assembly to another trying to find the perfect church, that is just to our liking. They are on the visitor role of most churches in the area.

The only perfect church is the one that assembles right after the rapture.

[dizzyde]

UPC on the losing end.

Dan’D
:TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS:

Considering the leadership of my pastor, and the men of God that I know personally, I'm thinking we'll be fine.

[TrmptPraise]

Considering the leadership of my pastor, and the men of God that I know personally, I'm thinking we'll be fine.

Amen

[dizzyde]

Amen



:amen

[embonpoint]

For the record, it is a known fact that the congregation of at least one of the "Tulsa 6" was built by active proselytization from other UPC churches in the area (and even from other states) over the course of many years.

"known facts" presented without data usually means long circulated gossip, innuendo and speculation. All common weapons for those commiting character assassination from the "moral high ground". Just remember to compensate for shooting down hill.

[NLYP]

NOBODY has been able to give me a solid answer to one little question....what is that question you may ask?

See the thread I will start concerning Tulsa.

[jrLA]

NOBODY has been able to give me a solid answer to one little question....what is that question you may ask?

See the thread I will start concerning Tulsa.

What thread? I see none with your name. Help me.

[Mr. Steinway]

NOBODY has been able to give me a solid answer to one little question....what is that question you may ask?

See the thread I will start concerning Tulsa.
*admin puts their fingers near the delete button in anticipation!* :lol

[NLYP]

What thread? I see none with your name. Help me.

Have not posted the thread yet.....working on it.

[Ferd]

There are some who advocate the idea of appeasement.

The idea that the UPC should just allow dual membership with no questions asked.

That the UPC should stand by as its ministers and constituents are fed a line about a new "preferred Apostolic future/direction."



How far do you think the UPC should go to appease these men?

As a pastor, what would you do if a new and improved church opened up next door to you and solicited the members of the congregation you led?
The lesson of history teaches us that appeasement leads to defeat.

[jrLA]

Have not posted the thread yet.....working on it.

:coffee2 Patiently Waiting!

:TulsaNO:

[dizzyde]

:coffee2 Patiently Waiting!

:TulsaNO:


:chirp :chirp :chirp :chirp

[NLYP]

:coffee2 Patiently Waiting!

:TulsaNO:

Ok....now go.

[AGAPE]

Sounds like you have a problem with submission.

I submit to you my brother....that :TulsaROCKS:

[pelathais]

Upc is not a "church" it is an Org..
If I don't want to go by the rules I leave...


:TulsaNO: (as in Carmen)
Same as with a "church", is it not? If you don't like the "rules" in a church you find yourself a new place to worship.

The distinction was being made because some people were questioning the recruiting tactics of the WwPF and compared it to "stealing saints" or proselytizing. To head off that argument, WwPF supporters said that the UPC wasn't a "church" and so you could freely solicit its membership for the new org.

[Draw4Tacos]

"known facts" presented without data usually means long circulated gossip, innuendo and speculation. All common weapons for those commiting character assassination from the "moral high ground". Just remember to compensate for shooting down hill.

While I appreciate your acknowledgement that I am standing on the "moral high ground," I must say that I have avoided overt character assassination by not naming the guilty parties. Perhaps I should have chosen a different set of words, such as "It has been observed that the congregation of a certain member of the T-6 seems to be populated with a large number of saints that formerly attended other UPC churches in the area." And "There are unimpeachable witnesses who can testify to having been greeted in public places, only to be then asked if they would consider joining the aforementioned congregation." But then again, I'm not that smart...

By the way, actually naming names could have legal implications. I try to avoid legal trouble...it's expensive!

[WyoPastor]

The WPF isn't trying to solicit members from the UPC churches to go to the WPF churches that are opening up across town... In fact I don't know of any new WPF churches that are opening up. Churches with UPC pastors are pulling out of the UPC, going WPF and making their churches affiliated with the WPF. On the WPF website it says they are NOT supposed to prosletize members of other Apostolic churches.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

What about ministers, including our former DS-who lost his office last spring, trying to prosletize other ministers to join WPF?

[Mr. Steinway]

What about ministers, including our former DS-who lost his office last spring, trying to prosletize other ministers to join WPF?
:eek:

[NW Pastor]

While I certainly do not seek to argue about the particulars of "the church" versus "a church," I would have to disagree with you in calling the UPCI a church.

IMHO the UPCI is a ministerial association which was founded for the sake of fellowship and the propagation of the Gospel to the whole world. In a legal sense it is a non-profit corporation, nothing less nothing more. There are individual ministers and churches which are associated and or affiliated with said corporation, the UPCI, however, is not a church as an entity within itself.

I personally think this is one of the problems that UPC "lifers" have at times, they cannot separate the fact that the UPCI corp/organization is not a church. This is because, to some extent, this has been implied if not taught on a national/international level.

You seem to be an eloquent, reasoned apologist for the WPF. Perhaps you could explain why they are touting the dual membership so prominently if the by-laws of the WPF explicitly state that the Executive Chairman cannot be a part of any other ministerial organization. I guess this is an organization after all, not just a fellowship, as the propoganda proclaims.

To agree with Ferd, appeasement is the first step on the long road to bloodshed and humiliation.

[Dan]

Appeasement?
No Way!!!
Throw ‘em out I say!! :woohoo
Show ‘em who’s boss!

The UPC is a church and they need to be in submission to the Pastor.
After all the GS is the pastor of all the preachers in the UPC ….right??…
Oh wait… :huh
I heard the DS is pastor of all the pastors in the district …..but some DS’s have left
Maybe it is the Presbyter over the section???
I forget which it is….. :hmmm
maybe it is the Ass’t GS of my zone
But then what about my Executive Presbyter for the Zone?
Oh wait is it him or the Executive Presbyter for the region?

Maybe they’re all Co-Pastors. :dunno

It can get where a guy doesn’t even know who he is rebelling against.
But they’re rebellin’ against somethin’ so throw ‘em out! :ranting

And tell ‘em to take there dues and missions support with ‘em! :grumpy
They don’t give anything anyway.
Missionaries can just come home and deputize another year or so!

They can sell a few campgrounds and talk about how people don’t really want to go to camp anymore anyhow.
Cut salaries :evilglee
Sell HQ

And push anyone who sympathizes or fellowships with them right out the door too because they are the dividers, excluders and elitists that just keep stirring the pot

Maybe if the UPC gets rid of enough they will have churches every where.
If they throw everyone out just think how much easier it will be to double in a decade.

Yup great idea! Makes lots of sense to me. :confused:

Maybe those that pushed for res 4 the last few years can draft another unifying resolution for this year, outlawing the WPF and anyone else that left in the last 12 months.

Show those controllers who is boss! After all they’re the ones dividing!

Oh Brother!!!…….. :nuke


This post is shows the spirit of the WWPF. WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Appeasement? Let them go! We will be better off without them! Money is not everything. Besides, I do know for a fact that some of the leaders of WWPF did not give one cent to Foreign Missions last year. The UPC will move forward and be stronger than ever. Sit back and watch. JMHO

[pelathais]

This post is shows the spirit of the WWPF. WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Appeasement? Let them go! We will be better off without them! Money is not everything. Besides, I do know for a fact that some of the leaders of WWPF did not give one cent to Foreign Missions last year. The UPC will move forward and be stronger than ever. Sit back and watch. JMHO
I hope you're right Dan. However much of the anti-UPC crowd within the UPC still exists there. If the WwPF represented some sort of clean break between two polar opposites then even I would support them. But most of the CAF and AMC types are in a holding pattern.

We need Oneness bodies that represent their constituency. As the UPC kept passing holier resolutions over the years it lost touch with its constituency. When there was a slight tremor in Tampa to retake some ground that had been lost to the radicals, the radicals freaked out, but not all of them have left.

Someone should reintroduce the original merger documents for a vote. I think you would see a groundswell of support.

[embonpoint]

This post is shows the spirit of the WWPF. WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Appeasement? Let them go! We will be better off without them! Money is not everything. Besides, I do know for a fact that some of the leaders of WWPF did not give one cent to Foreign Missions last year. The UPC will move forward and be stronger than ever. Sit back and watch. JMHO

Shows how desperate some are to attack the WPF as I am neither a part of the UPC nor the WPF and have no intention of joining the WPF. So tell me how I represent the "spirit" of the WPF?

It seems the WPF brethren are not the only ones capable of taking their marbles and going home. But some (many?) within the UPCI are also willing risk damage to the overall work of God in a fit of pique. :ouch

WOW! I feel a little sarcasm!

Surely you jest?

Speaking of sarcasm it seems I recall hearing the GS of the UPCI at GC in Toronto say, "We appreciate this large crowd as a result of the letter writing campaigns that did not cost us 1 cent." If the Tulsa crowd is guilty of sarcasm, maybe they have learned it through past associations .:shocked:
Maybe we should talk about where they might have learned to ignore elders also if they are in fact guilty of this.

The "just sit back and watch" advice you gave is the most sound JMHO. :thumbsup