NEWS FLASH regional missionary in trouble?

[Thad]

what's up with the missionary from south America that's getting his funds and support pulled as well as his statis as a missionary ??

I know that there are some conservative ministers that are quite upset about it .

I don't know why this is taking place - does anyone know why ???

[Felicity]

what's up with the missionary from south America that's getting his funds and support pulled as well as his statis as a missionary ??

I know that there are some conservative ministers that are quite upset about it .

I don't know why this is taking place - does anyone know why ???Something is seriously wrong for this to be happening. FMD wouldn't do this otherwise.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Something is seriously wrong for this to be happening. FMD wouldn't do this otherwise.

It did happen.

However they did also announce that of the $7 Million offering, they HAVE collected $818000.00. :dunno

[Thad]

Something is seriously wrong for this to be happening. FMD wouldn't do this otherwise.


it's a VERRRRRRY SERIOUS ISSUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LaGirl]

some missionaries from our church are having to come back due to funds. They arent getting their pledge money. PLUS...they are in the bahamas....they cant get citizenship. the man that was FIRED because of anna nichole was handling their paper work. the minister of something....anyway, they said he had a relationship with anna. the missionaries knew him well and said the media not telling the truth. such a mess for them!

[Thad]

some missionaries from our church are having to come back due to funds. They arent getting their pledge money. PLUS...they are in the bahamas....they cant get citizenship. the man that was FIRED because of anna nichole was handling their paper work. the minister of something....anyway, they said he had a relationship with anna. the missionaries knew him well and said the media not telling the truth. such a mess for them!


the media is not telling the truth about what ?

[LaGirl]

the media is not telling the truth about what ?

anna and the minister person.

[Thad]

anna and the minister person.

what were they saying or not saying ?

[Praxeas]

ok....so we spend less money on stained glass windows and angel statutes and more on missionaries? :dunno

[Thad]

ok....so we spend less money on stained glass windows and angel statutes and more on missionaries? :dunno



how does that apply? this is a organizational UPC issue.

what you are talking about is an individual church building

[Praxeas]

how does that apply? this is a organizational UPC issue.

what you are talking about is an individual church building
I thought one issue raised here was less money for UPC missionaries.....There's even less money for holding the General Conference?

[Thad]

I thought one issue raised here was less money for UPC missionaries.....There's even less money for holding the General Conference?

someone who knows more can clarify but it's my understanding that a group of UPC preachers have decided to withhold funds for missionaries because of this Recent Issue

charging to get into UPC conference ...... nevermind !

[Sister Alvear]

I heard some things but just hearsay...since I am not upci my news is just hearsay...let's pray...

[Thad]

Is the FMD in trrrrrrrrrrrrouble ????????????

[philjones]

A young missionary family connected to our church was called home as well. They are working with his father to start a home missions church. They had only been on the field less than a year. I had no idea that it was more widespread than just this one instance.

[secretplace]

Withholding money sure spells unity doesn't it?

In the meantime, while we are withholding souls are dying.

[Steve Epley]

Same Ole same ole!!! If you preach anything and don't lick the FMD boots out you go!

[LaGirl]

what were they saying or not saying ?

they were saying that he had a relationship with Anna and rushed her citizenship papers. from what i have heard, everything done was legal.

[rrford]

Same Ole same ole!!! If you preach anything and don't lick the FMD boots out you go!

Whatever.

[Steadfast]

Withholding money sure spells unity doesn't it?

In the meantime, while we are withholding souls are dying.

I sincerely doubt that there is much 'witholding' being done. I'm a big Missions supporter - we have over 70 PIM's - and I've only heard a few whispers about it over the last 5 years.

With all the traveling I do I would think someone would 'uncork' about how they holding out on Missionaries. What a silly thing to do in light of the Great Commission. Makes about as much sense as minority groups deciding to riot over a court decision and getting the bright idea, "HEY! I think I'll go burn down MY neighborhood!"

I strongly suspect that there are missionaries struggling because of the huge offerings being taken up and pledges for monthly support at Conferences... while much of the offerings not coming in and monthly support that never does start once they get home from the Conference.

MISSIONS: It's vital to the Kingdom. To challenge that would be, in my opinion, to challenge God's command. Men usually don't do well when they start doing that.

[Sister Alvear]

very true...

[rrford]

I sincerely doubt that there is much 'witholding' being done. I'm a big Missions supporter - we have over 70 PIM's - and I've only heard a few whispers about it over the last 5 years.

With all the traveling I do I would think someone would 'uncork' about how they holding out on Missionaries. What a silly thing to do in light of the Great Commission. Makes about as much sense as minority groups deciding to riot over a court decision and getting the bright idea, "HEY! I think I'll go burn down MY neighborhood!"

I strongly suspect that there are missionaries struggling because of the huge offerings being taken up and pledges for monthly support at Conferences... while much of the offerings not coming in and monthly support that never does start once they get home from the Conference.

MISSIONS: It's vital to the Kingdom. To challenge that would be, in my opinion, to challenge God's command. Men usually don't do well when they start doing that.

Hey, it's even worse when it is UPCI District Officials who are declaring that they are witholding their support. Very disappointing to me.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I strongly suspect that there are missionaries struggling because of the huge offerings being taken up and pledges for monthly support at Conferences... while much of the offerings not coming in and monthly support that never does start once they get home from the Conference.[/COLOR]

This was the start of the troubles- pledged money that NEVER came in.
:ranting

[Felicity]

This was the start of the troubles- pledged money that NEVER came in.
:rantingThis has ALWAYS been so.

[Felicity]

Do you realize that on average a missionary can expect to receive only about 70% of the PIM support raised on deputation!? At least that's the way it was when we were missionaries. I don't know if it's changed since then or not but if it has I can only expect that that the percentage would have decreased.

Bro. Judd was pretty pleased and excited that we were receiving around 90% of ours. That was largely due to the faithfulness of our Canadian PIMs.

[Thad]

Hey, it's even worse when it is UPCI District Officials who are declaring that they are witholding their support. Very disappointing to me.


why be in an organization you don't trust let alone hold an office ???


there is an BIG official here that wont let his youth go to the state youth camp cause standards are not high enough.

[Steve Epley]

Hey, it's even worse when it is UPCI District Officials who are declaring that they are witholding their support. Very disappointing to me.

NOT witholding support but using ANOTHER venue to send it through. There is a difference although some feel anything outside the 'grand ole lady' is witholding. The venue this official is sending his money through won't be sticking their hands in the til taking money away from the purported designated money. ALL the money designated goes where it si designated isn't that an odd concept??????????? Sending the money to where is was taken up for instead of some official's NEED. :drawguns

[Nahum]

Same Ole same ole!!! If you preach anything and don't lick the FMD boots out you go!

Steve, this is a very dumb post that is beneath you.

[Steve Epley]

Steve, this is a very dumb post that is beneath you.

Just an outside observation for the past several years.

[Thad]

Do you realize that on average a missionary can expect to receive only about 70% of the PIM support raised on deputation!? At least that's the way it was when we were missionaries. I don't know if it's changed since then or not but if it has I can only expect that that the percentage would have decreased.

Bro. Judd was pretty pleased and excited that we were receiving around 90% of ours. That was largely due to the faithfulness of our Canadian PIMs.


I ALWAYS thought it was pathetic the way missionaries had to travel all over begging for money. shame on us for that

[rrford]

NOT witholding support but using ANOTHER venue to send it through. There is a difference although some feel anything outside the 'grand ole lady' is witholding. The venue this official is sending his money through won't be sticking their hands in the til taking money away from the purported designated money. ALL the money designated goes where it si designated isn't that an odd concept??????????? Sending the money to where is was taken up for instead of some official's NEED. :drawguns


Nice answer. Missing several key elements, but a nice answer nonetheless.

BTW, does that other "venue" provide a way for health insurance, travel, communication, etc to be provided for?

Do you really not understand that with a Foreign Mission program the size of that of the UPCI that there are indeed some administrative expenses? Do you think this other "venue" could operate on the same level and still send 100% of the offerings to the missionary?

[Felicity]

NOT witholding support but using ANOTHER venue to send it through. There is a difference although some feel anything outside the 'grand ole lady' is witholding. The venue this official is sending his money through won't be sticking their hands in the til taking money away from the purported designated money. ALL the money designated goes where it si designated isn't that an odd concept??????????? Sending the money to where is was taken up for instead of some official's NEED. :drawgunsWell this is somewhat reassuring that they're still supporting the missionary.

There have always been those who sent $$$ support straight to the missionary bypassing HQ but in reality the missionary is supposed to report all offerings and money given to them.

So in one way sending money independent of going through proper channels is causing the missionary to sin. :wacko

[Thad]

NOT witholding support but using ANOTHER venue to send it through. There is a difference although some feel anything outside the 'grand ole lady' is witholding. The venue this official is sending his money through won't be sticking their hands in the til taking money away from the purported designated money. ALL the money designated goes where it si designated isn't that an odd concept??????????? Sending the money to where is was taken up for instead of some official's NEED. :drawguns



i think many are starting to funnel money through different channels from what I've heard

[rrford]

Well this is somewhat reassuring that they're still supporting the missionary.

There have always been those who sent $$$ support straight to the missionary bypassing HQ but in reality the missionary is supposed to report all offerings and money given to them.

So in one way sending money independent of going through proper channels is causing the missionary to sin. :wacko

What's the big deal about integority? :dunno

Honestly, I am not saying the FM does not have problems that need to be solved. I personally find it wrong for a man to hold a position in the UPCI and directly violate a policy of the UPCI. JMO.

[LaVonne]

i think many are starting to funnel money through different channels from what I've heard

Oh there are Thad...there are those who collect money for FM and send it themselves paying the wire transfer fees out of their own pocket!!

[Nahum]

What's the big deal about integority? :dunno

Honestly, I am not saying the FM does not have problems that need to be solved. I personally find it wrong for a man to hold a position in the UPCI and directly violate a policy of the UPCI. JMO.

I'm with you Bro.

[Felicity]

What's the big deal about integority? :dunno

Honestly, I am not saying the FM does not have problems that need to be solved. I personally find it wrong for a man to hold a position in the UPCI and directly violate a policy of the UPCI. JMO. Agreed but not all hold to this viewpoint. There are different interpretations of what integrity means. :(

Look ..... the bottom line is nothing is perfect. Nothing! But I can say from experience that UPCI FMD is one of the best things going. You be in some of these other organizations or an "independent" and you find this out REAL quick.

[Steve Epley]

Nice answer. Missing several key elements, but a nice answer nonetheless.

BTW, does that other "venue" provide a way for health insurance, travel, communication, etc to be provided for?

Do you really not understand that with a Foreign Mission program the size of that of the UPCI that there are indeed some administrative expenses? Do you think this other "venue" could operate on the same level and still send 100% of the offerings to the missionary?

It matters nothing if they are going to take those benefits aways from vetran missionaries in the stage of their life they need them? I am not saying their are not administrative expenses however men send it as administrative expenses instead of MISAPPROPRIATING designated monies. Embezzlement in the Name of the Lord. I wonder how many saints would give for their money to be used as administrative expenses?????? And yes it could be operated for any size using this method.

[Felicity]

Like I said ..... it puts the missionary on the spot. Although I guess he could still report the funds that came in from Bro. So and So and then it would be up to FM dept. heads or the DS to deal with the erring pastors???

[rrford]

Agreed but not all hold to this viewpoint. There are different interpretations of what integrity means. :(

Look ..... the bottom line is nothing is perfect. Nothing! But I can say from experience that UPCI FMD is one of the best things going. You be in some of these other organizations or an "independent" and you find this out REAL quick.

Very true. Let anyone name me one organization the size of the UPCI that is doing more for the cause of Foreign Missions.

[rrford]

It matters nothing if they are going to take those benefits aways from vetran missionaries in the stage of their life they need them? I am not saying their are not administrative expenses however men send it as administrative expenses instead of MISAPPROPRIATING designated monies. Embezzlement in the Name of the Lord. I wonder how many saints would give for their money to be used as administrative expenses?????? And yes it could be operated for any size using this method.

Some judgments I refuse to give until ALL of the FACTS are in. There is much wisdom in that, IMO.

Further, I seriously doubt that this other "venue" could send the funds that the UPCI does and track them without having to hire at least one individual full-time to do so. JMHO.

[Nahum]

Very true. Let anyone name me one organization the size of the UPCI that is doing more for the cause of Foreign Missions.

No one. We have many issues, but our commitment to world missions is second to none. Brother Howell and his team are doing an incredible job with very few resources.

Take it from me, FM is not a department that is wasteful. We could go on and on about other departments, but FM is spectacular in its streamlined effieciency.

[Steve Epley]

Some judgments I refuse to give until ALL of the FACTS are in. There is much wisdom in that, IMO.

Further, I seriously doubt that this other "venue" could send the funds that the UPCI does and track them without having to hire at least one individual full-time to do so. JMHO.

Fine however to dip into designated money is embezzeling in any other business venture?

[rrford]

Fine however to dip into designated money is embezzeling in any other business venture?

Uhm, I am assuming you have irrefutable proof this has happened? It is quite an accusation to make if you don't have all of your ducks in a row.

[LaVonne]

Oh there are Thad...there are those who collect money for FM and send it themselves paying the wire transfer fees out of their own pocket!!

Bump for Thad!

[Nahum]

Fine however to dip into designated money is embezzeling in any other business venture?

As is individual pastors diverting money collected to support specific missionaries with the intent of disbursement through the FM division.

That, my friend, is quite illegal.

[Steve Epley]

Uhm, I am assuming you have irrefutable proof this has happened? It is quite an accusation to make if you don't have all of your ducks in a row.

The percentage taken out is a known fact. If a church pledges $100 for missionary so & so which is designated money and a percentage is taken out and the missionary does not get the money then what is that???? It is like "THIS offering goes to the evangelist" then plunder it for expenditures is this honest or not?

[LaVonne]

As is individual pastors diverting money collected to support specific missionaries with the intent of disbursement through the FM division.

That, my friend, is quite illegal.

This is not right...

[Revelationist]

Do you realize that on average a missionary can expect to receive only about 70% of the PIM support raised on deputation!? At least that's the way it was when we were missionaries. I don't know if it's changed since then or not but if it has I can only expect that that the percentage would have decreased.

Bro. Judd was pretty pleased and excited that we were receiving around 90% of ours. That was largely due to the faithfulness of our Canadian PIMs.

The rest of that money goes for overhead like United Way and other big organizations... gotta see that the CEO's get raises...

[ChTatum]

The percentage taken out is a known fact. If a church pledges $100 for missionary so & so which is designated money and a percentage is taken out and the missionary does not get the money then what is that???? It is like "THIS offering goes to the evangelist" then plunder it for expenditures is this honest or not?


This does not fit the definition of "embezzlement".

If it is a known fact, it is not dishonest or even unethical.

[Steve Epley]

This does not fit the definition of "embezzlement".

If it is a known fact, it is not dishonest or even unethical.

They are NOT telling the saints who are giving X amount of dollars for missionary so & so that now folks part of this money he ain't gonna see the HQ takes out their plug first. But among the ministry it is known. And it is BOTH unethical and dishonest.

[Felicity]

I truly do NOT understand the thinking of some people. We visited some of the officials' homes and they were not living in huge luxury, I can assure you.

It might interest you to know that many missionaries are living in homes overseas that they would never ever be able to live in here.

We had lovely homes to live in when we were in HK. First of all because we lived in the New Territories where it was cheaper and secondly we were blessed to find a place owned by a man who was willing to let us go in and choose flooring, cupboard, light fixtures, colors, carpets.......everything! It was brand new! And it was beautiful!

None of the missionaries I've known in the UPCI were suffering, that's for sure.

[Felicity]

They are NOT telling the saints who are giving X amount of dollars for missionary so & so that now folks part of this money he ain't gonna see the HQ takes out their plug first. But among the ministry it is known. And it is BOTH unethical and dishonest.I don't think most of the saints care and I don't think it would affect the giving.

Who raises the money anyhow? It's the missionaries who raise the money. It's a result of them sharing their burden, their passion and their mission. People buy into that and there are always going to be administrative costs. Most people understand this. I don't think that 99% of them would or do have a problem with that.

[Guy]

The percentage taken out is a known fact. If a church pledges $100 for missionary so & so which is designated money and a percentage is taken out and the missionary does not get the money then what is that???? It is like "THIS offering goes to the evangelist" then plunder it for expenditures is this honest or not?

Bro. Epley
You really are smarter than what you are sounding here. If you have a magic way to run the administrative machine with something other than money let us know.
Every missionary who signs up is told how the expenses and overhead is paid and the ratio is actually very good in comparison to other similar organizations. Add to that the fact that the UPC does not nickel and dime its missionaries and provides them with healthcare and retirement packages that are the envy of missionaries from other structures and see just how much the missionaries themselves are complaining.
BTW it is not dishonest to use funds raised for a missionary to pay for the support structure that is enabling him to be on the field.

Just another Guy.

[Felicity]

Bro. Epley
You really are smarter than what you are sounding here. If you have a magic way to run the administrative machine with something other than money let us know.
Every missionary who signs up is told how the expenses and overhead is paid and the ratio is actually very good in comparison to other similar organizations. Add to that the fact that the UPC does not nickel and dime its missionaries and provides them with healthcare and retirement packages that are the envy of missionaries from other structures and see just how much the missionaries themselves are complaining.
BTW it is not dishonest to use funds raised for a missionary to pay for the support structure that is enabling him to be on the field.

Just another Guy.Exactly!!

[Guy]

They are NOT telling the saints who are giving X amount of dollars for missionary so & so that now folks part of this money he ain't gonna see the HQ takes out their plug first. But among the ministry it is known. And it is BOTH unethical and dishonest.

You are entitle to your opinion - as wrong and small minded as it may be.
What are people supposed to think - that angels do the administrative work for free.
Anybody who has ever run any kind of organization or business understands that if you want it you've got to pay for it.

[Thad]

Bro. Epley
You really are smarter than what you are sounding here. If you have a magic way to run the administrative machine with something other than money let us know.
Every missionary who signs up is told how the expenses and overhead is paid and the ratio is actually very good in comparison to other similar organizations. Add to that the fact that the UPC does not nickel and dime its missionaries and provides them with healthcare and retirement packages that are the envy of missionaries from other structures and see just how much the missionaries themselves are complaining.
BTW it is not dishonest to use funds raised for a missionary to pay for the support structure that is enabling him to be on the field.

Just another Guy.


you raise a valid point Guy but can you tell me WHY our missionairies have to go on a begging campaign every 4 years? there has got to be a better way don't you think ?


carey you are right. I know a pastor personally who sends his funds directly. some are sending it to one pastor who sends it to missionaries because they don't trust headQs

[Felicity]

you raise a valid point Guy but can you tell me WHY our missionairies have to go on a begging campaign every 4 years? there has got to be a better way don't you think ?


carey you are right. I know a pastor personally who sends his funds directly. some are sending it to one pastor who sends it to missionaries because they don't trust headQsIt's not a begging campaign. It's an OPPORTUNITY and a PRIVILEGE! It's a wonderful way of making the fellowship aware of the needs around the world.

You got to trust SOMEbody. Who knows but what the missionary might misappropriate funds?

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Epley
You really are smarter than what you are sounding here. If you have a magic way to run the administrative machine with something other than money let us know.
Every missionary who signs up is told how the expenses and overhead is paid and the ratio is actually very good in comparison to other similar organizations. Add to that the fact that the UPC does not nickel and dime its missionaries and provides them with healthcare and retirement packages that are the envy of missionaries from other structures and see just how much the missionaries themselves are complaining.
BTW it is not dishonest to use funds raised for a missionary to pay for the support structure that is enabling him to be on the field.

Just another Guy.

I realizr administrative expenses must be covered even us Kentuckians from the Gap understand that, however the money DESIGNATED cannot be those funds. UNDESIGNATED funds should be used for that NOT a percentage of designated funds! Revivals costs however to raid monies taken up FOR the evangelist to cover those expenses is not honest! If the saints are aware that a percentage of their money is going for administrative costs I have no problem. If NOT then it is unethicial and dishonest.

[rrford]

The percentage taken out is a known fact. If a church pledges $100 for missionary so & so which is designated money and a percentage is taken out and the missionary does not get the money then what is that???? It is like "THIS offering goes to the evangelist" then plunder it for expenditures is this honest or not?


Say, some of us explain those types of things to the churches we pastor. They seem to understand "administrative costs."

[Sam]

Steve, this is a very dumb post that is beneath you.

He could have used a much worse analogy.

[Steve Epley]

Say, some of us explain those types of things to the churches we pastor. They seem to understand "administrative costs."

Then I have no problem.

[ChTatum]

They are NOT telling the saints who are giving X amount of dollars for missionary so & so that now folks part of this money he ain't gonna see the HQ takes out their plug first. But among the ministry it is known. And it is BOTH unethical and dishonest.

Brother, you are the one who said it was a known fact.

[Guy]

I realizr administrative expenses must be covered even us Kentuckians from the Gap understand that, however the money DESIGNATED cannot be those funds. UNDESIGNATED funds should be used for that NOT a percentage of designated funds! Revivals costs however to raid monies taken up FOR the evangelist to cover those expenses is not honest! If the saints are aware that a percentage of their money is going for administrative costs I have no problem. If NOT then it is unethicial and dishonest.

Money raised for PIM's is not raised as the missionaries private piggy bank. It is raised to cover their living expenses and the associated costs of the work in the foreign field along with administrative expenses. I knew that when I first started pastoring quite a few years ago - it hasn't been any secret.
If you have a revival meeting and take up an offering to cover the expenses of the revival no one has a problem with it (except for the yahoos in the back who won't give a dime anyway.)

[Steve Epley]

Money raised for PIM's is not raised as the missionaries private piggy bank. It is raised to cover their living expenses and the associated costs of the work in the foreign field along with administrative expenses. I knew that when I first started pastoring quite a few years ago - it hasn't been any secret.
If you have a revival meeting and take up an offering to cover the expenses of the revival no one has a problem with it (except for the yahoos in the back who won't give a dime anyway.)

An offering for the expenses of the revival and a offering for the evangelist is NOT the same or it wouldn't be it you was an evangelist.

[Thad]

It's not a begging campaign. It's an OPPORTUNITY and a PRIVILEGE! It's a wonderful way of making the fellowship aware of the needs around the world.

You got to trust SOMEbody. Who knows but what the missionary might misappropriate funds?


traveling to make the fellowship aware of the needs around the world is one thing. But I don't think they should have to ask for PIMs Felicity.
we are the richest nation in the world. many of our pastors are wealthy while the missionaries have to go do without and suffer. I don't like what i see sorry

[rrford]

traveling to make the fellowship aware of the needs around the world is one thing. But I don't think they should have to ask for PIMs Felicity.
we are the richest nation in the world. many of our pastors are wealthy while the missionaries have to go do without and suffer. I don't like what i see sorry

Nor do I. But thus far no one has came up with a better idea.

[Guy]

you raise a valid point Guy but can you tell me WHY our missionairies have to go on a begging campaign every 4 years? there has got to be a better way don't you think ?


carey you are right. I know a pastor personally who sends his funds directly. some are sending it to one pastor who sends it to missionaries because they don't trust headQs

HQ has tried other things to alleviate the burden of traveling with limited success. The benefit of the traveling is that it raises the missions profile in the local churches.
What we need is a genius with a plan that no one else has come up with.
Then with the petty and small minded withholding missions support just because they can it exacerbates the problem.

[Sam]

They are NOT telling the saints who are giving X amount of dollars for missionary so & so that now folks part of this money he ain't gonna see the HQ takes out their plug first. But among the ministry it is known. And it is BOTH unethical and dishonest.

Shouldn't it be well published what percentage of income (offerings that come in) go to overhead? That way you could tell folks when you take up the offering, "75 (or whatever the figure is) out of every 100 dollars you give will go to some missionary (maybe not the one you designate but to some missionary as per the FMD formula)."

[Guy]

traveling to make the fellowship aware of the needs around the world is one thing. But I don't think they should have to ask for PIMs Felicity.
we are the richest nation in the world. many of our pastors are wealthy while the missionaries have to go do without and suffer. I don't like what i see sorry

How much do you really think our missionaries on the field are going without?
Even when dodoes at home don't pay their PIMS HQ pays them their salary until they can't allow them to go farther in deficit. This is a far bigger problem than the small percentage that runs the FMD.

[Thad]

Nor do I. But thus far no one has came up with a better idea.

umm, couldn't they get private sponsors? isnt there a way to invest this money to earn a greater profit?

[Felicity]

Even when dodoes at home :heeheehee

[Thad]

HQ has tried other things to alleviate the burden of traveling with limited success. The benefit of the traveling is that it raises the missions profile in the local churches.
What we need is a genius with a plan that no one else has come up with.
Then with the petty and small minded withholding missions support just because they can it exacerbates the problem.

seems to be a growing problem with the invention of the internet too

[Guy]

Shouldn't it be well published what percentage of income (offerings that come in) go to overhead? That way you could tell folks when you take up the offering, "75 (or whatever the figure is) out of every 100 dollars you give will go to some missionary (maybe not the one you designate but to some missionary as per the FMD formula)."

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the administrative stuff about 15 percent?
Any reasonable person recognizes and expects the costs of a support network.

[Steve Epley]

Shouldn't it be well published what percentage of income (offerings that come in) go to overhead? That way you could tell folks when you take up the offering, "75 (or whatever the figure is) out of every 100 dollars you give will go to some missionary (maybe not the one you designate but to some missionary as per the FMD formula)."

Yep the folks will knock you down putting money in that pan.:highfive

[Felicity]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the administrative stuff about 15 percent?
Any reasonable person recognizes and expects the costs of a support network.I think the 15% figure is about right.

[Guy]

:heeheehee

Had to check my spelling.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
do·do /ˈdoʊdoʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[doh-doh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -dos, -does. 1. any of several clumsy, flightless, extinct birds of the genera Raphus and Pezophaps, related to pigeons but about the size of a turkey, formerly inhabiting the islands of Mauritius, Réunion, and Rodriguez.
2. Slang. a dull-witted, slow-reacting person.
3. a person with old-fashioned, conservative, or outmoded ideas.
4. a thing that is outmoded or obsolete.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1620–30; < Pg doudo, fool, madman (of uncert. orig.); the bird appar. so called from its clumsy appearance]

[Guy]

Yep the folks will knock you down putting money in that pan.:highfive

Assuming they have a heart for the work of the kingdom they probably would. It is to be hoped that the work of the kingdom is bigger than any one personality.

[Guy]

Nighty night! Carry on!

[ILuvFPC]

ok....so we spend less money on stained glass windows and angel statutes and more on missionaries? :dunno

dude get over it.. what in the world does a upc missionary in brazil have to do with an independent apostolic church in arkansas????

[Sherri]

Well, I long for the day when we can have a missionary visit, or send one from our church, and raise all the funds in one service. I hate it that they have to spend their "furlough" wearing themselves out, running all over the U.S., when they deserve to be resting.

[rrford]

dude get over it.. what in the world does a upc missionary in brazil have to do with an independent apostolic church in arkansas????

Uhm, quite a bit actually. Those missionaries in Brazil have received generous and gracious support from that independant Apsotolic church in Arkansas. Thank God!

[rrford]

Well, I long for the day when we can have a missionary visit, or send one from our church, and raise all the funds in one service. I hate it that they have to spend their "furlough" wearing themselves out, running all over the U.S., when they deserve to be resting.


I agree. But for any one church to be able to totally support a missionary for a year would be a quite large undertaking. Probably more than your building expense annually.

[Sherri]

I agree. But for any one church to be able to totally support a missionary for a year would be a quite large undertaking. Probably more than your building expense annually.
Well, not more than our building expense, but a lot nevertheless. But I can dream, can't I?? I have such a passion for foreign missions.

[Felicity]

Thing is there are always ways to cut expense but there are always going to be the critics no matter what you do, no matter how cheap you get, no matter how streamlined and efficient a budget may be, no matter if the FMD Secretary is a whiz with the books and in the office.

I can tell you that one of the greatest missions departments on planet earth is the southern baptist foreign missions dept. We were good friends with one of their missionaries in HK and even thought the UPCI is so much smaller and the budget probably wouldn't begin to compare, yet our program was every bit as good as theirs in most every way.

And to think that when my husband walked into the kitchen just home from Foreign Missions service at Campmeeting and told me that God had called to foreign missions my first thought was that I would never have a nice place to live, and could picture myself living in a grass hut. :heeheehee

How amazingly, pleasantly and overwhelmingly surprised I was at how good God was to me in this regard. Truly ......... if you delight yourself in the Lord he WILL and DOES grant you the desires of your heart as long as they're in sync with the will of God and they will be if you're delighting yourself in Him - putting Him first and His will and purpose first in your life!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

And to think that when my husband walked into the kitchen just home from Foreign Missions service at Campmeeting and told me that God had called to foreign missions my first thought was that I would never have a nice place to live, and could picture myself living in a grass hut. :heeheehee

Did you live in the house of sticks, or brick... err wrong story.

:tease

[Sherri]

Thing is there are always ways to cut expense but there are always going to be the critics no matter what you do, no matter how cheap you get, no matter how streamlined and efficient a budget may be, no matter if the FMD Secretary is a whiz with the books and in the office.

I can tell you that one of the greatest missions departments on planet earth is the southern baptist foreign missions dept. We were good friends with one of their missionaries in HK and even thought the UPCI is so much smaller and the budget probably wouldn't begin to compare, yet our program was every bit as good as theirs in most every way.

And to think that when my husband walked into the kitchen just home from Foreign Missions service at Campmeeting and told me that God had called to foreign missions my first thought was that I would never have a nice place to live, and could picture myself living in a grass hut. :heeheehee

How amazingly, pleasantly and overwhelmingly surprised I was at how good God was to me in this regard. Truly ......... if you delight yourself in the Lord he WILL and DOES grant you the desires of your heart as long as they're in sync with the will of God and they will be if you're delighting yourself in Him - putting Him first and His will and purpose first in your life!

The Southern Baptist missionaries don't have to travel and raise support do they?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Guy had it correct. Overhead for PIM is 15-17%

Some of the answers here had nothing at all do to with the question.

Another normal day of jumping to the WRONG conclusions.

[rrford]

Guy had it correct. Overhead for PIM is 15-17%

Some of the answers here had nothing at all do to with the question.

Another normal day of jumping to the WRONG conclusions.

Surely you jest???? :killinme

[stmatthew]

I have a novel idea..........


Why don't the admin dept of the FMD raise money for their expenses, and let money sent to the missionaries go to the missionaries?

It seems to me that as the FMD is right now, the missionary is not just raising his support, but the admins salary also.

[stmatthew]

what's up with the missionary from south America that's getting his funds and support pulled as well as his statis as a missionary ??

I know that there are some conservative ministers that are quite upset about it .

I don't know why this is taking place - does anyone know why ???

Has anyone stated why this has happened?? Was he bad??

[Felicity]

Did you live in the house of sticks, or brick... err wrong story.

:teaseLOL! Truly .... I had no real idea of what was involved with foreign missions. I didn't know much about the FM program even though we had missionaries come through and we supported them as PIMs. I'm a little naive at times I guess.

The first 9 months we were in HK we stayed in another missionary's (not UPC) apartment - they were home on furlough. That was right in the heart of Kowloon.

The next place we lived in was in a residential housing project just outside of Yuen Long built by all people....the Royal Bank of Canada! :) The house we lived in was 3 levels with a front and back yard. The third level was a large bedroom and ensuite bathroom. They were called Garden Houses and kind of Spanish design I guess. Like I said we were given the privilege (by the owner) of decorating the house ..... everything from light fixtures to carpets, cupboard, everything. And we were paying only half of what the other missionaries were paying in Kowloon and on HK Island. We could see the border of China from the balcony off our bedroom. :)

The third home was even larger - we moved there so TB could be closer to the office where he worked (radio ministry outreach into China) during our 2nd term. It was large (multilevel) with spacious airy rooms and 3 baths, 2 car garage, etc. Beautiful! It had a fish pond in the front yard that we used to baptize more than once! Ha! :) That house was still less rent than other missionaries were paying and no more than we were paying after a couple rent hikes in the place we had been previous and it was so much larger. :)

After being there a couple of years they raised the rent to where we felt we couldn't conscientiously pay out that kind of money so we looked again ..... this time for a place right in Yuen Long since we had started a church there, had found a nice location for that including office space and so it would be so much closer and convenient.

This time we found an apartment - 5th floor of a highrise - again brand new. It was small - but the rent was very cheap and so we decided to move there. We had a total of 750 sq. ft.!! LOL! Much much less than we were used to but we felt the money we were saving was worth it. It was like a doll house and even in that small amount of space we had 3 bedrooms and two full baths. :thumbsup

So....... God was good to us and regard to the UPCI FM Dept. I have nothing bad to say. They were wonderful to us, churches here at home and the pastors were wonderful in the way they supported and helped us.

Deputation - both times - was fantastic. We met so many wonderful people and raised a LOT of money -- the most that had ever been raised up until that point in regard to project monies for China. It was a great experience and I wouldn't trade anything for all that we experienced and saw accomplished during our time involved in Missions with the UPC.

[rrford]

I have a novel idea..........


Why don't the admin dept of the FMD raise money for their expenses, and let money sent to the missionaries go to the missionaries?

It seems to me that as the FMD is right now, the missionary is not just raising his support, but the admins salary also.

Do you really not see the difficulty of such an idea?

[Felicity]

The Southern Baptist missionaries don't have to travel and raise support do they?Not like we do, no.

You know .... some missionaries enjoy deputation. We did. And we had 3 little kids. Our first time around mine were 3, 4 and 6. We have wonderful memories! A few bad ones..... lol ......but mostly it was great!

Of course we raised our budget the first time around in 7 months. That was back when you were averaging 6 services a week pretty much. There were weeks we were in church Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri., Sat. and twice on Sunday.

That changed though between our first deputation and the second. Second deputation we averaged 5 services a week overall. Regardless, we raised our budget 2nd time around in one year and over $150,000 in project money besides. It was a very good year! :)

[Ron]

Not like we do, no.

You know .... some missionaries enjoy deputation. We did. And we had 3 little kids. Our first time around mine were 3, 4 and 6. We have wonderful memories! A few bad ones..... lol ......but mostly it was great!

Of course we raised our budget the first time around in 7 months. That was back when you were averaging 6 services a week pretty much. There were weeks we were in church Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri., Sat. and twice on Sunday.

That changed though between our first deputation and the second. Second deputation we averaged 5 services a week overall. Regardless, we raised our budget 2nd time around in one year and over $150,000 in project money besides. It was a very good year! :)


Felicity,

Just out of curiosity, what years were you Missionaries to Hong Kong?

[Felicity]

Felicity,

Just out of curiosity, what years were you Missionaries to Hong Kong?1980 - 88.

[stmatthew]

Do you really not see the difficulty of such an idea?


I am sure it is not a viable solution. But it does seem unfair that some missionaries will have to come thousands of miles to raise money for their work, and then have to raise that extra 15% for the administration too. If the administration could show their needs in their quarterly Insite, maybe they would get some gifts that would begin to offset the 15% taken out.


I think the greatest need overall is communication from missionaries to the homeland.

Just trying to throw out solutions instead of just focusing on the problems

[Sherri]

Not like we do, no.

You know .... some missionaries enjoy deputation. We did. And we had 3 little kids. Our first time around mine were 3, 4 and 6. We have wonderful memories! A few bad ones..... lol ......but mostly it was great!

Of course we raised our budget the first time around in 7 months. That was back when you were averaging 6 services a week pretty much. There were weeks we were in church Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri., Sat. and twice on Sunday.

That changed though between our first deputation and the second. Second deputation we averaged 5 services a week overall. Regardless, we raised our budget 2nd time around in one year and over $150,000 in project money besides. It was a very good year! :)

With people's schedules nowadays though, it's not uncommon to only get Sundays and Wednesdays filled. Churches just don't do offnight services much anymore. I have heard of missionaries that are now spending 18-24 months on deputation to go back for four years. I think it's really sad and they don't get to rest.

[BringItOn]

IF they are able to offer healthcare to missionarys in being such a great org why not offer Insurance to all its preachers.

[Thad]

Has anyone stated why this has happened?? Was he bad??


I believe all the guns are pointing at bruce Howell right now.
the accusation is that this particular missionary wanted to
take an early retirement. instead they told him he was no
longer a missionary to avoid having to dole out his retirement

[rrford]

I am sure it is not a viable solution. But it does seem unfair that some missionaries will have to come thousands of miles to raise money for their work, and then have to raise that extra 15% for the administration too. If the administration could show their needs in their quarterly Insite, maybe they would get some gifts that would begin to offset the 15% taken out.


I think the greatest need overall is communication from missionaries to the homeland.

Just trying to throw out solutions instead of just focusing on the problems

So far I think we have proven it is difficual tneough to raise the missionaries budget without also making an appeal feo a separate administrative budget. IMO, it is much simpler to explain that 15-17% of funds raised is deducted for administrative expense. That figure is actually quitle low compared to comparable endeavors.

[Sherri]

The FMD has good points and bad points. One area that I think they lack is support for missions widows, like my mother in law. They gave many years on the field in Africa, and then my FIL was killed there as a missionary. I always felt like there should have been some kind of pension for her (my MIL), since she gave everything for the cause. JMHO!!

[Praxeas]

Fine however to dip into designated money is embezzeling in any other business venture?
Even legitimate charities when they collect money it's understood the 100% does not go to the charity itself as there are other administration costs pertaining to the charity..that's not embezzlement

[rrford]

IF they are able to offer healthcare to missionarys in being such a great org why not offer Insurance to all its preachers.

They do.

[BringItOn]

To sum it up all dont share and have the same passion for truth as others, so if one refuses to quit preaching truth and convictions you bring them home. the said missionary has preached for us and is strong in his belief.

[Felicity]

With people's schedules nowadays though, it's not uncommon to only get Sundays and Wednesdays filled. Churches just don't do offnight services much anymore. I have heard of missionaries that are now spending 18-24 months on deputation to go back for four years. I think it's really sad and they don't get to rest.That is sad, I agree. But there are chances to rest on the field. We always took a vacation each year.

A lot has changed since our first deputation. Churches haven't grown either numerically or financially enough to keep up with adding new PIMs for one thing.

Some missionaries don't do a great job at communicating their burden or vision. I've found that when a missionary is passionate and able to communicate to the people his burden and vision and makes his appeal impacting and interesting people will respond. Problem is many pastors don't allow the people to respond. They don't want $$$ leaving the church without going through the church office and there is good reason that they should go through the church, but some pastors simply won't allow the people to respond at all.

Even though it's more difficult there are those missionaries who are having no trouble raising their funds in a year or so. That says something.

The other problem like you say is the fewer services. If you're only averaging .... say.... 4 services a week it slows everything down for sure. I know that FMD has had huge scheduling services with missionaries waiting to get started in the past.

It still seems to be the best way though. Many have tried to come up with a better plan but haven't been able to.

[rrford]

To sum it up all dont share and have the same passion for truth as others, so if one refuses to quit preaching truth and convictions you bring them home. the said missionary has preached for us and is strong in his belief.

Again, until all of the FACTS are in it really is hard to pass a correct judgment. JMHO.

[BringItOn]

They do.
nothing affordable. as many as there is they should have better rates.

[Praxeas]

traveling to make the fellowship aware of the needs around the world is one thing. But I don't think they should have to ask for PIMs Felicity.
we are the richest nation in the world. many of our pastors are wealthy while the missionaries have to go do without and suffer. I don't like what i see sorry

stain glassed windows and angel statues....I got attacked for making this point before. What is our priority?

[BringItOn]

Again, until all of the FACTS are in it really is hard to pass a correct judgment. JMHO.
There are three sides to every story.
his side
their side
the right side

:heeheehee

[rrford]

nothing affordable. as many as there is they should have better rates.

I absolutely agree. The problem is that the census is based on the age of the ministrers eligible. Since we have a great many elderly ministers it drives the premium fairly high for less than stellar coverage.

[Ron]

1980 - 88.

Wow, you musta been young missionaries.

[rrford]

There are three sides to every story.
his side
their side
the right side

:heeheehee

True. And rarely the 3 shall meet.

[Praxeas]

dude get over it.. what in the world does a upc missionary in brazil have to do with an independent apostolic church in arkansas????
It certainly is not just THAT church. I never made an issue of it being just that church. I repeated over and over and over I was addressing general principles and priorities of all of us.

And why can't an independent Apostolic church help support some missionary in Brazil even if they are UPC?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

With people's schedules nowadays though, it's not uncommon to only get Sundays and Wednesdays filled. Churches just don't do offnight services much anymore. I have heard of missionaries that are now spending 18-24 months on deputation to go back for four years. I think it's really sad and they don't get to rest.

It is really even worse. So many churches are on the HFG bandwagon, whereever it is headed, that they don't have midweek service anymore. And many churches have one service on Sundays. This is having an effect at Tupelo also.

[Praxeas]

Uhm, quite a bit actually. Those missionaries in Brazil have received generous and gracious support from that independant Apsotolic church in Arkansas. Thank God!
Amen. That's awesome. That is something we should all see as a church priority

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Wow, you musta been young missionaries.

Or she is older than dirt!

:killinme

[Felicity]

Wow, you musta been young missionaries.We were the youngest appointed up to that point I believe. I was 26.

We had already been pastoring about 5 years.

[Praxeas]

I have a novel idea..........


Why don't the admin dept of the FMD raise money for their expenses, and let money sent to the missionaries go to the missionaries?

It seems to me that as the FMD is right now, the missionary is not just raising his support, but the admins salary also.
Do the missionaries tithe?

[Felicity]

It is really even worse. So many churches are on the HFG bandwagon, wherever it is headed, that they don't have midweek service anymore. And many churches have one service on Sundays. This is having an effect at Tupelo also. Oh yes! I forgot about the fact there are churches having only one service now. :eek: All of this would have an effect for sure.

We would do our best to accommodate a missionary service. I know that changing the night affects attendance but what the missionary REALLY needs is the offering and a PIM. They don't care so much about big attendance although it's always nice to have that. But it isn't the priority really.

[Felicity]

Do the missionaries tithe?Absolutely!

[stmatthew]

Absolutely!

Who do they tithe to?

[Felicity]

Who do they tithe to? My memory's fuzzy on this one for some reason.

[Felicity]

Do you all know that the missionaries as a group are one of the highest $$$ contributors to foreign missions? In the mid 80s they were #2 I believe!

[vrblackwell]

I have a novel idea..........


Why don't the admin dept of the FMD raise money for their expenses, and let money sent to the missionaries go to the missionaries?

It seems to me that as the FMD is right now, the missionary is not just raising his support, but the admins salary also.

They do. The admin. expense is paid out of the offereing collected at GC.

[Thad]

They do. The admin. expense is paid out of the offereing collected at GC.

verlon

are you aware of the controversy that has arisen ??

[slave4him]

you raise a valid point Guy but can you tell me WHY our missionairies have to go on a begging campaign every 4 years? there has got to be a better way don't you think ?


carey you are right. I know a pastor personally who sends his funds directly. some are sending it to one pastor who sends it to missionaries because they don't trust headQs
It is my understanding that this is because so many pastors expect this. Most missionaries want to have someone in the states represent them instead of them coming and doing it. But many pastors will not support them unless the actual missionary comes. I heard this from someone whom is very in touch with FM's in several different locales.

[Sister Alvear]

We pay tithes...I have never heard of a missionary not paying tithes...maybe there are some that do not I don't know any myself.
Since we work differently than the UPC maybe we pay differently than they do. They may pay to headquarters....

[Guy]

I believe all the guns are pointing at bruce Howell right now.
the accusation is that this particular missionary wanted to
take an early retirement. instead they told him he was no
longer a missionary to avoid having to dole out his retirement

I may be wrong - but it seems to me that a missionaries retirement funds are in a 401k for him or her to draw on.
I think there is probably a bigger issue here than early retirement.

Disclaimer: At this point I don't know the missionary or the situation.

Just another Guy

[rgcraig]

Well, I long for the day when we can have a missionary visit, or send one from our church, and raise all the funds in one service. I hate it that they have to spend their "furlough" wearing themselves out, running all over the U.S., when they deserve to be resting.
This has always bothered me. They are already giving so much of themselves on the field, then have them work for their money.....

Also, I don't like that they have to report what other money they are given and that amount is taken from their monthly support. My cousin is a missionary in Africa and she asked that we not send her money because they have to report it.

[Steve Epley]

They do. The admin. expense is paid out of the offereing collected at GC.

Then why is the hand so deep in the missionary pot?????????? On here it hs been said 15% to 17%. Next conference you guys tell your saints y'all are plundering the missionary funds that percentage and see how happy they are. I have had this conversation for years with folks who send money to missions and WITHOUT exception NONE believe the FMD was taking designated funds and using it for expenses at HQ.

[Guy]

Then why is the hand so deep in the missionary pot?????????? On here it hs been said 15% to 17%. Next conference you guys tell your saints y'all are plundering the missionary funds that percentage and see how happy they are. I have had this conversation for years with folks who send money to missions and WITHOUT exception NONE believe the FMD was taking designated funds and using it for expenses at HQ.

Bro.
Then you are talking to the seriously uninformed. This has never been a secret.
On a 25 dollar PIM it is about 3 bucks, that's hardly plundering. My saints think that is pretty good bang for the buck.
Walks off muttering about small minded dimwitted....

Just another Guy

[Steve Epley]

Bro.
Then you are talking to the seriously uninformed. This has never been a secret.
On a 25 dollar PIM it is about 3 bucks, that's hardly plundering. My saints think that is pretty good bang for the buck.
Walks off muttering about small minded dimwitted....

Just another Guy

Then YOU have told your saints????????????????? If so that is proper and I have no problem I guess.

[Mr. Steinway]

Didn't Lanny Wolfe write a song, "Withholding Nothing"? :D

[Guy]

Didn't Lanny Wolfe write a song, "Withholding Nothing"? :D

That was his problem:killinme

[rgcraig]

This might have already been answered, but of all the money raised at GC for FM does anyone know how much of that goes to the missionaries?

[Mr. Steinway]

That was his problem:killinme
:heeheehee

[Guy]

Just out of curiousity - what kind of organized missionary effort does the AMF have?
If each missionary is responsible for their own administration in the US of A does that mean that it is coming out of funds given to the missionary for the foreign work?

[Steve Epley]

Just out of curiousity - what kind of organized missionary effort does the AMF have?
If each missionary is responsible for their own administration in the US of A does that mean that it is coming out of funds given to the missionary for the foreign work?

Around a million dollars a year out of about 100 churches. Our administrative costs come from UNdesignated funds and the generousity of pastors who pay it. NOT one dime would ever come out of the missionarie's money. IF we were the size of the UPC it would NOT be different it is a principle with us. The money goes where you have told the givers it goes. The IAM is handling more than a million dollars a year and EVERY cent going to the missionaries on the same principle. If you tell your people I have no problem you are an exception NOT the rule of those I have known.

[Guy]

Around a million dollars a year out of about 100 churches. Our administrative costs come from UNdesignated funds and the generousity of pastors who pay it. NOT one dime would ever come out of the missionarie's money. IF we were the size of the UPC it would NOT be different it is a principle with us. The money goes where you have told the givers it goes. The IAM is handling more than a million dollars a year and EVERY cent going to the missionaries on the same principle. If you tell your people I have no problem you are an exception NOT the rule of those I have known.

What would be the percentage of administrative costs compared to the total giving?
Do these include administrative staff and the publishing of newsletters for the missionary and the cost of promotional material for the organized effort?
Do IAM funded missionaries have retirement or health plans?
How is the foreign work apart from the missionaries salary funded? Does it come out of the missionaries money?

Just a few questions from another Guy

[Steve Epley]

What would be the percentage of administrative costs? Do these include the publishing of newsletters for the missionary and the cost of promotional material for the organized effort?
Do IAM funded missionaries have retirement or health plans?
How is the foreign work apart from the missionaries salary funded? Does it come out of the missionaries money?

Just a few questions from another Guy

Brethren publish and mail the missionaries' letters for them at NO cost to them. Special offerings are taken for buildings and projects and NO we do NOT dock their monthly support for these projects. Neither the IAM nor the AMF has retirement or health plans we are too small. However if you jerk them from a veteran missionary what good did it do them?
Our work in Brazil is one of the finest missionary works in the world in quality and quanity. Out missionary in Brazil does the legal work for the UPC there.

[Guy]

Brethren publish and mail the missionaries' letters for them at NO cost to them. Special offerings are taken for buildings and projects and NO we do NOT dock their monthly support for these projects. Neither the IAM nor the AMF has retirement or health plans we are too small. However if you jerk them from a veteran missionary what good did it do them?
Our work in Brazil is one of the finest missionary works in the world in quality and quanity. Out missionary in Brazil does the legal work for the UPC there.

Congratulations on the project offerings - the UPCI does this as well.
How many missionaries does the IAM and AMF have on the field?
BTW, the 401K doesn't get jerked from the missionary when they leave the field - that's just bombastic propaganda.
What you are saying is that there is really no organized effort by the IAM and AMF to provide support services to missionaries? If a missionary wants a letter published and mailed they have to find a buddy to do it for them? If the buddy falls on hard times or falls out with the missionary they have to find another buddy to do it for them?
That sounds even worse than building administrative costs into a budget.

[daddyof2]

I truly do NOT understand the thinking of some people. We visited some of the officials' homes and they were not living in huge luxury, I can assure you.

It might interest you to know that many missionaries are living in homes overseas that they would never ever be able to live in here.

We had lovely homes to live in when we were in HK. First of all because we lived in the New Territories where it was cheaper and secondly we were blessed to find a place owned by a man who was willing to let us go in and choose flooring, cupboard, light fixtures, colors, carpets.......everything! It was brand new! And it was beautiful!

None of the missionaries I've known in the UPCI were suffering, that's for sure.

Thank you for being a voice of reason to those who look for every opportunity to tear down the UPC.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Brethren publish and mail the missionaries' letters for them at NO cost to them.

I have been amazed more Missionaries do not utilize the Internet more. I get newsletters that easily could be published on a webpage for all to enjoy. They used to do this in the UPC, but last I looked they are very far behind in some missionaries.

:dunno

[Steve Epley]

Congratulations on the project offerings - the UPCI does this as well.
How many missionaries does the IAM and AMF have on the field?
BTW, the 401K doesn't get jerked from the missionary when they leave the field - that's just bombastic propaganda.
What you are saying is that there is really no organized effort by the IAM and AMF to provide support services to missionaries? If a missionary wants a letter published and mailed they have to find a buddy to do it for them? If the buddy falls on hard times or falls out with the missionary they have to find another buddy to do it for them?
That sounds even worse than building administrative costs into a budget.

It has worked for us for nearly 40 years. We have missionaries in several countries. Our missionary secretary sends out mailers which are paid for by pastors NOT the missionaries' money. Brethren do send out letters for them and have done it for again 40 years. Works for us. The IAM is a clearly house that money is sent directly to the missionary a monthly report is sent it is only a few years old but is growing greatly since som many have become disenfranchized by the FMD. Again when retirement is pulled from a veteran missionary what security is it?????
I fail to understand your statement on organized support??? That is what we do men schedule them-report for them-support them.

[Steve Epley]

I have been amazed more Missionaries do not utilize the Internet more. I get newsletters that easily could be published on a webpage for all to enjoy. They used to do this in the UPC, but last I looked they are very far behind in some missionaries.

:dunno

Our Brazilian work does that.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Our Brazilian work does that.

Is this the Alvears? Or another?

Maybe you could post the links in the Missions Area of the board.

:bliss

[Sister Alvear]

No, we are not ACI or AMF...Brother Epley speaks of the Lambeth works.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

No, we are not ACI or AMF...Brother Epley speaks of the Lambeth works.


:ty

[Guy]

It has worked for us for nearly 40 years. We have missionaries in several countries. Our missionary secretary sends out mailers which are paid for by pastors NOT the missionaries' money. Brethren do send out letters for them and have done it for again 40 years. Works for us. The IAM is a clearly house that money is sent directly to the missionary a monthly report is sent it is only a few years old but is growing greatly since som many have become disenfranchized by the FMD. Again when retirement is pulled from a veteran missionary what security is it?????
I fail to understand your statement on organized support??? That is what we do men schedule them-report for them-support them.

Reverend
You are making what seems to be an unsubstantiated claim regarding retirement being pulled from a veteran missionary. Again - did they take his 401k, IRA or Roth?
Seems to me that there are larger issues here because I know young missionaries that have come home from the field with retirement funds larger than mine after only a couple of terms at most that they could cash in for downpayments on homes etc.
Something stinks about this whole story.

[TRIPLE E]

This was the start of the troubles- pledged money that NEVER came in.
:ranting

`Yes being in missions work in the past one of the hardest things to understand was how some churches that pledged their support did not come through.Thank God for the faithful few!

[Kansas Preacher]

Hey, it's even worse when it is UPCI District Officials who are declaring that they are witholding their support. Very disappointing to me.

You know, if you are referring to me, please keep the facts straight. I have NEVER "withheld support" from the missionaries. I don't pastor a LARGE church, but we gave around $20,000 last year to missions (both Home and Foreign).

Just so you'll know.

[Kansas Preacher]

What's the big deal about integority? :dunno

Honestly, I am not saying the FM does not have problems that need to be solved. I personally find it wrong for a man to hold a position in the UPCI and directly violate a policy of the UPCI. JMO.

Would you please mind explaining WHICH "policy of the UPCI" is being "directly violated?" There is no policy that says you HAVE to support missionaries through the FMD. In fact, there is no policy that says you HAVE to support missions at all.


:tease

[Steve Epley]

You know, if you are referring to me, please keep the facts straight. I have NEVER "withheld support" from the missionaries. I don't pastor a LARGE church, but we gave around $20,000 last year to missions (both Home and Foreign).

Just so you'll know.

If you don't send it through the system you withold money they can't dip into!!!! Thus you withold. Let's see $20,000 minus 17 percent is what?????
MILLIONS $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ minus 17% is what??? That is a lot of stamps-letters-bookeeping???? Just asking????

[Kansas Preacher]

Reverend
You are making what seems to be an unsubstantiated claim regarding retirement being pulled from a veteran missionary. Again - did they take his 401k, IRA or Roth?
Seems to me that there are larger issues here because I know young missionaries that have come home from the field with retirement funds larger than mine after only a couple of terms at most that they could cash in for downpayments on homes etc.
Something stinks about this whole story.

I am personally involved with the situation being discussed and know FAR more than I am willing to post on this forum.

However, I can tell you that what happened was this missionary was approved for retirement status. He was supposed to be given a "start date" for his retirement at the February FMB meeting. Instead, they "recalled" his appointment, leaving him with nothing.

Yes, there ARE issues that brought this about. However, they are NOT moral issues on the part of the missionary. It is very possible that in the near future, I will be at liberty to discuss more of the issue.

For now, I plan to divulge no more of the information in this particular venue.

[Felicity]

I don't get some of these attitudes. :)

[Thad]

I am personally involved with the situation being discussed and know FAR more than I am willing to post on this forum.

However, I can tell you that what happened was this missionary was approved for retirement status. He was supposed to be given a "start date" for his retirement at the February FMB meeting. Instead, they "recalled" his appointment, leaving him with nothing.

Yes, there ARE issues that brought this about. However, they are NOT moral issues on the part of the missionary. It is very possible that in the near future, I will be at liberty to discuss more of the issue.

For now, I plan to divulge no more of the information in this particular venue.

This is what I heard too.
Bro Bruce is really in hot water on this one.

A lot of Cons are getting together a funneling their money thru other avenues.

[TRIPLE E]

This is what I heard too.
Bro Bruce is really in hot water on this one.

A lot of Cons are getting together a funneling their money thru other avenues.

And indeed they should!

[Whole Hearted]

And indeed they should!

Agreed

[Thad]

Agreed

how about you ?
have you decided what you will do ?

[Kansas Preacher]

I don't get some of these attitudes. :)

Felicity,

I hope you are not referring to me. Please know that rrford and I have "bantered back and forth" on other forums. Sometimes my writings come across as harsh, but that is certainly not my intention. Much of my "caustic" writing is actually tongue-in-cheek, although my points are my honest and straight-forward opinions.

I have nothing to hide in the way that I deal with missions. I do believe that I was somewhat "under attack" and tried to respond accordingly. This thread was not about me, but it seems my "friend" decided to drag me into it. (I simply decided that, if I HAD to be drug in, I would be drug in "kicking and screaming." )

I sincerely pray that my attitude is not bad.

[Guy]

I am personally involved with the situation being discussed and know FAR more than I am willing to post on this forum.

However, I can tell you that what happened was this missionary was approved for retirement status. He was supposed to be given a "start date" for his retirement at the February FMB meeting. Instead, they "recalled" his appointment, leaving him with nothing.

Yes, there ARE issues that brought this about. However, they are NOT moral issues on the part of the missionary. It is very possible that in the near future, I will be at liberty to discuss more of the issue.

For now, I plan to divulge no more of the information in this particular venue.

Reverend
I have freely admitted that I know nothing about the situation - I don't even know who the missionary is. I think you can clarify this though - that whatever retirement funds he has accrued remain his.
I don't even want to get into the issues that caused the change in status - I do know that if the change went through the FMB board then there was obviously something behind it. These things are not usually done on a whim.

[Felicity]

I do know that if the change went through the FMB board then there was obviously something behind it. These things are not usually done on a whim.True.

[Thad]

* * * QUESTIONS * * *


Has HeadQuaters given an official response to this issue Yet and if so what do they plan to do to recify the problem ?


IS this Bro back in the states or still out of the country ?

[Guy]

And indeed they should!

Should what? Gyp our missionaries? Let everyone else pay the freight while they indulge in a little creative blackmail?
Don't like what is being done - do what Kansas Preacher is doing - get involved in the process and see that it is corrected if the man has been treated wrongly.

[LaVonne]

I don't get some of these attitudes. :)

Felicity, I have appreciated your posts on this thread very much! I do believe that the UPCI does a terrific job at supporting it's missionaries and your testimony says so! We know someone who collects money privately for specific missions works. 100% of the money goes to the missionaries, he even pays the wire transfer fee.

[Guy]

how about you ?
have you decided what you will do ?

He's going to do whatever one of his ultra idols tell him to do.

[Felicity]

* * * QUESTIONS * * *


Has HeadQuaters given an official response to this issue Yet and if so what do they plan to do to recify the problem ?




Well if it wasn't, it is now. :)

[Guy]

Felicity, I have appreciated your posts on this thread very much! I do believe that the UPCI does a terrific job at supporting it's missionaries and your testimony says so! We know someone who collects money privately for specific missions works. 100% of the money goes to the missionaries, he even pays the wire transfer fee.

Is he doing it for 300 plus missionary families? Receipting the money from 4,000 churches? Planning schedules and administrative needs for missionaries from 95 different countries?

[Felicity]

Is he doing it for 300 plus missionary families? Receipting the money from 4,000 churches? Planning schedules and administrative needs for missionaries from 95 different countries?Exactly. :thumbsup

[Guy]

Exactly. :thumbsup

you know you must be saying something right when an ex-UPCer and ex-missionary agrees with you.
Thanks

[Thad]

If you don't send it through the system you withold money they can't dip into!!!! Thus you withold. Let's see $20,000 minus 17 percent is what?????
MILLIONS $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ minus 17% is what??? That is a lot of stamps-letters-bookeeping???? Just asking????


YIIIIIIIIIIKES!!!!


you're in BIG Trouble!

[Kansas Preacher]

Reverend
I have freely admitted that I know nothing about the situation - I don't even know who the missionary is. I think you can clarify this though - that whatever retirement funds he has accrued remain his.
I don't even want to get into the issues that caused the change in status - I do know that if the change went through the FMB board then there was obviously something behind it. These things are not usually done on a whim.

Unfortunately, I do not know the answer to your question. However, I have just sent an email to the missionary in question and asked him directly.

What I know is that he requested retirement status and FMB voted unanimously to approve it in May of 2006. However, they told him that they would have to determine the "start" date of his retirement. He wrote to them in January of this year, asking to transfer his license to the Kansas District. They refused, saying that they would have to wait until they determined the "start" date of his retirement. Then, in February, they voted to "recall" his appointment. To top it off, just a few days ago, a "communique" was sent out to the General Board and the missionaries listing this man under the heading of "resignations" (a term that is distinctly different from either "retirement" OR "recall").

You are correct in saying it was not "done on a whim." However, I do NOT agree with what was done, nor the basis on which it was done. I promise you that, as SOON as I feel I am at liberty to do so, I will be glad to answer any and all questions about this matter.

[Thad]

Admin,


I think that anyone who knows much about this situation knows which missionary it is :heeheehee

[rgcraig]

Admin,


I think that anyone who knows much about this situation knows which missionary it is :heeheehee
Perhaps, but many don't.

[daddyof2]

YIIIIIIIIIIKES!!!!


you're in BIG Trouble!

I would hope so...especially if he is giving wild numbers like that.

[TRIPLE E]

Should what? Gyp our missionaries? Let everyone else pay the freight while they indulge in a little creative blackmail?
Don't like what is being done - do what Kansas Preacher is doing - get involved in the process and see that it is corrected if the man has been treated wrongly.


Don't worry Guy I intend too!

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Admin,


I think that anyone who knows much about this situation knows which missionary it is :heeheehee


And we ain't tellin you!

[Thad]

And we ain't tellin you!


i already knew long before I started this thread :bliss

[Guy]

Don't worry Guy I intend too!

Don Cervantes to the rescue!
Off we go merrily tilting at windmills.
Call your District Foreign Missions Director and get the lowdown.

[Guy]

Unfortunately, I do not know the answer to your question. However, I have just sent an email to the missionary in question and asked him directly.

What I know is that he requested retirement status and FMB voted unanimously to approve it in May of 2006. However, they told him that they would have to determine the "start" date of his retirement. He wrote to them in January of this year, asking to transfer his license to the Kansas District. They refused, saying that they would have to wait until they determined the "start" date of his retirement. Then, in February, they voted to "recall" his appointment. To top it off, just a few days ago, a "communique" was sent out to the General Board and the missionaries listing this man under the heading of "resignations" (a term that is distinctly different from either "retirement" OR "recall").

You are correct in saying it was not "done on a whim." However, I do NOT agree with what was done, nor the basis on which it was done. I promise you that, as SOON as I feel I am at liberty to do so, I will be glad to answer any and all questions about this matter.

Bro.
I'm not sure that all the info needs to be on the net.
I would just as soon that the man's name had not been made public.
I've been with him and he seemed like a fine man to me.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Don Cervantes to the rescue!
Off we go merrily tilting at windmills.
Call your District Foreign Missions Director and get the lowdown.

Only the windmills were described as burning.

[Malvaro]

Bro.
I'm not sure that all the info needs to be on the net.
I would just as soon that the man's name had not been made public.
I've been with him and he seemed like a fine man to me.

Admin would move in immediately and remove the name if it was accidently posted....

[TRIPLE E]

Don Cervantes to the rescue!
Off we go merrily tilting at windmills.
Call your District Foreign Missions Director and get the lowdown.

Don't need to Guy I already have enough info to go on!Thanks for the advice anyway!

[Guy]

Don't need to Guy I already have enough info to go on!Thanks for the advice anyway!

If you are going by the info on this thread you have very little to go on.
Each to his own
Hi Ho Silver Away!!!

Lesson of the Day - Guy says "Don't jump into another man's fight until you know what the fight is all about, that way you don't have to apologize as often"

[Thad]

* * * News UPdate * * *

Did you hear that a former Missionary is coming out of retirement to help settle this matter ???


hope he succeeds

[TRIPLE E]

* * * News UPdate * * *

Did you hear that a former Missionary is coming out of retirement to help settle this matter ???


hope he succeeds

I also heard of another veterran missionary couple leaving the foreign fields to come home.What's going on?

[Felicity]

Felicity,

I hope you are not referring to me. Please know that rrford and I have "bantered back and forth" on other forums. Sometimes my writings come across as harsh, but that is certainly not my intention. Much of my "caustic" writing is actually tongue-in-cheek, although my points are my honest and straight-forward opinions.

I have nothing to hide in the way that I deal with missions. I do believe that I was somewhat "under attack" and tried to respond accordingly. This thread was not about me, but it seems my "friend" decided to drag me into it. (I simply decided that, if I HAD to be drug in, I would be drug in "kicking and screaming." )

I sincerely pray that my attitude is not bad. It's ok bro. I understand your posting style. :)

I am surprised at some of the attitudes but not singling any one person out in particular.

[The Dean]

Fine however to dip into designated money is embezzeling in any other business venture?

It is not ebezzeling anything. The Missionaries know from the very beginning that there will be the percentage taken for insurance, emergency travel funds, retirement and administrative expenses. It is, precisely, what one would have done in a factory if he were paying union dues, having insurance taken out of their check or putting back a retirement.

Nothing more and nothing less. If you folks are really so sold on the policy of bypassing the proper channels then maybe your Saints should bypass that whole tithing thing and put it into the coffers in such a way the Pastor has no access to it.

A bypass is a bypass? I've never met a missionary that has complained about having insurance or emergency funds to get home for funerals. I've never seen one complain about having a retirement or lawyers fighting for their visas. Seems that whole process isn't that bad after all.

Another thing that seems lost in the shuffle is that those who complain about what their headquaters "takes away" from the missionaries seem to forget that they give them the liberty to promote and accept funds for any special products beyond their PIM. So to be correct you would have to say that anything the percentage taken might cost them they can pretty much make up with their special projects funds.

This situation being discussed has far from been played out yet. It seems shameful for people to make massive judgments against an organization without knowing the details or waiting to see all the unknown factors played out. Shameful to attack without realizing that there may be valid reasons for why the organizational government is doing what they are doing.

I guess it's not unprecedented, however. Ever heard of al Qaeda?

[ALVIN]

Do you all know that the missionaries as a group are one of the highest $$$ contributors to foreign missions? In the mid 80s they were #2 I believe!

In the 2005 - 2006 Fiscal Year the Foreign Missionaries were the largest donors to the FMD. As a group they gave $358,927.82.

The thing that has always intrigued me is, "WHY?"

In order for Foreign Missionaries to give $360k, they have to solicit donations of approximately $420k from their Partners ($420k - 15% = $360k).

If they send their $360k for another trip through WEC, it is reduced by a further 15%, or $54k. (Unless their giving is exempted from the admin. fee) The end result is that Partners give $420k, but only $306k actually goes into the work.

Why don't they just put the $358,927.82 into the work where the Partners intended for it to go?

BTW. As a regular contributor to the FMD I don't have any problem with the 15% administrative fee. They run a quality program, and I trust the leadership to operate their department ethically. (We're only talking $4,000,000 per year anyway)

[The Dean]

traveling to make the fellowship aware of the needs around the world is one thing. But I don't think they should have to ask for PIMs Felicity.
we are the richest nation in the world. many of our pastors are wealthy while the missionaries have to go do without and suffer. I don't like what i see sorry

Thad - I take umbrage with your post on two reasons. I have been with dozens of Missionaries on foreign soil and have never seen one do without or suffer. As Felicity said there are some that live far better than we do with nicer homes and full time housekeepers. Another thing that I found of interest is that some missionaries want to come home and travel. They said it was refreshing to come home and be with American churches.

[ALVIN]

It is not ebezzeling anything. The Missionaries know from the very beginning that there will be the percentage taken for insurance, emergency travel funds, retirement and administrative expenses. It is, precisely, what one would have done in a factory if he were paying union dues, having insurance taken out of their check or putting back a retirement.

Nothing more and nothing less. If you folks are really so sold on the policy of bypassing the proper channels then maybe your Saints should bypass that whole tithing thing and put it into the coffers in such a way the Pastor has no access to it.

A bypass is a bypass? I've never met a missionary that has complained about having insurance or emergency funds to get home for funerals. I've never seen one complain about having a retirement or lawyers fighting for their visas. Seems that whole process isn't that bad after all.

Another thing that seems lost in the shuffle is that those who complain about what their headquaters "takes away" from the missionaries seem to forget that they give them the liberty to promote and accept funds for any special products beyond their PIM. So to be correct you would have to say that anything the percentage taken might cost them they can pretty much make up with their special projects funds.

This situation being discussed has far from been played out yet. It seems shameful for people to make massive judgments against an organization without knowing the details or waiting to see all the unknown factors played out. Shameful to attack without realizing that there may be valid reasons for why the organizational government is doing what they are doing.

I guess it's not unprecedented, however. Ever heard of al Qaeda?

You've left little to say other than, "Amen."

[Felicity]

Thad - I take umbrage with your post on two reasons. I have been with dozens of Missionaries on foreign soil and have never seen one do without or suffer. As Felicity said there are some that live far better than we do with nicer homes and full time housekeepers. Another thing that I found of interest is that some missionaries want to come home and travel. They said it was refreshing to come home and be with American churches.Truth! :)

[The Dean]

I believe all the guns are pointing at bruce Howell right now.
the accusation is that this particular missionary wanted to
take an early retirement. instead they told him he was no
longer a missionary to avoid having to dole out his retirement

I promise you that is not the entire story. Howell is a fair man and answers to the entire FMD board.

To believe that is a slap in the face of every member of a great FMD.

[ALVIN]

Thad - I take umbrage with your post on two reasons. I have been with dozens of Missionaries on foreign soil and have never seen one do without or suffer. As Felicity said there are some that live far better than we do with nicer homes and full time housekeepers. Another thing that I found of interest is that some missionaries want to come home and travel. They said it was refreshing to come home and be with American churches.

You touched on one factor that I believe affects Missions fundraising when you said, "there are some that live far better than we do with nicer homes and full time housekeepers."

I do not personally begrudge missionaries whatever luxuries we can provide them with on the field, but it is a disincentive to asking people of limited mean to give sacrificially.

To be completely honest, I give regularly to the Foreign Missions Program, but my sacrificial giving is reserved for those who are living sacrificially.

[Felicity]

In the 2005 - 2006 Fiscal Year the Foreign Missionaries were the largest donors to the FMD. As a group they gave $358,927.82.

The thing that has always intrigued me is, "WHY?"

In order for Foreign Missionaries to give $360k, they have to solicit donations of approximately $420k from their Partners ($420k - 15% = $360k).

If they send their $360k for another trip through WEC, it is reduced by a further 15%, or $54k. (Unless their giving is exempted from the admin. fee) The end result is that Partners give $420k, but only $306k actually goes into the work.

Why don't they just put the $358,927.82 into the work where the Partners intended for it to go?

BTW. As a regular contributor to the FMD I don't have any problem with the 15% administrative fee. They run a quality program, and I trust the leadership to operate their department ethically. (We're only talking $4,000,000 per year anyway) As to WHY it's because missionaries themselves have a heart and burden for the lost and they're willing to do without extras in order to give to the cause themselves. They actually believe in what they live on a day to day basis and they also believe in the programs they themselves promote ........ i.e the PIM program and FAITH PROMISE as well.

I know what my husband and myself pledged in '84 to give and I can guarantee you it wasn't pocket change! It was a fair amount of $$$ considering our income.

[Nahum]

I promise you that is not the entire story. Howell is a fair man and answers to the entire FMD board.

To believe that is a slap in the face of every member of a great FMD.

Dean, whoever you are, Thank you!

You are correct, Brother Howell is a man of great integrity.

I hate to burst Epley and everyone elses anti-UPC rant bubble here, but I was just told that there was an attempt to remove all the churches under his care from the UPC - by this missionary.

That's why this action was taken. I hope I have earned the trust of my peers on this board, and that they will understand that my source is valid.

You see, all things are not always as they seem.

[Felicity]

You touched on one factor that I believe affects Missions fundraising when you said, "there are some that live far better than we do with nicer homes and full time housekeepers."

I do not personally begrudge missionaries whatever luxuries we can provide them with on the field, but it is a disincentive to asking people of limited mean to give sacrificially.

To be completely honest, I give regularly to the Foreign Missions Program, but my sacrificial giving is reserved for those who are living sacrificially.Ahhhh......... I figured this might come up eventually. ;) I can help explain some of your concern but not now.

[SDG]

Dean, whoever you are, Thank you!

You are correct, Brother Howell is a man of great integrity.

I hate to burst Epley and everyone elses anti-UPC rant bubble here, but I was just told that there was an attempt to remove on the part of a missionary involved in this to withdraw all the churches from the UPC.

That's why this action was taken. I hope I have earned the trust of my peers on this board, and that they will understand that my source is valid.

You see, all things are not always as they seem.

Brother Howell... may be the greatest man in Pentecost .... his humility, love for people and integrity are unmatched ... having walked side by side with him ... I see Christ. IMHO

[Esther]

Dean, whoever you are, Thank you!

You are correct, Brother Howell is a man of great integrity.

I hate to burst Epley and everyone elses anti-UPC rant bubble here, but I was just told that there was an attempt to remove all the churches under his care from the UPC - by this missionary.

That's why this action was taken. I hope I have earned the trust of my peers on this board, and that they will understand that my source is valid.

You see, all things are not always as they seem.

AS stated before there is always two sides of the story and then the truth. Without hearing from all sides it is foolish to make judgements. IMO

[Guy]

Dean, whoever you are, Thank you!

You are correct, Brother Howell is a man of great integrity.

I hate to burst Epley and everyone elses anti-UPC rant bubble here, but I was just told that there was an attempt to remove all the churches under his care from the UPC - by this missionary.

That's why this action was taken. I hope I have earned the trust of my peers on this board, and that they will understand that my source is valid.

You see, all things are not always as they seem.

Ah, I had speculated that this might be the case. If so they should not only fire him but also find some way that he would never receive any further benefit from HMD.
Please don't tell me that he was trying to swing them to Lambeth/AMF?
Bro. Epley - do you have a vested interest in this mess?

[ALVIN]

It did happen.

However they did also announce that of the $7 Million offering, they HAVE collected $818000.00. :dunno

This post is incomplete.

The seven million dollar figure was a calculation arrived at by extending the PIMs received over a ten year period. It will take another 9.5 years to determine what portion of the pledged $7 million is actually received.

[Nahum]

Funny how quiet it got all of a sudden.

[Felicity]

Well I said there had to be something very significant going on that would cause FMD to take this kind of action. :thumbsup

[Guy]

Funny how quiet it got all of a sudden.

Don't you hate it when someone puts a pin in the bubble? Ruins a good conspiracy.

[SDG]

Howell for GS!!!!!

[ALVIN]

Ah, I had speculated that this might be the case. If so they should not only fire him but also find some way that he would never receive any further benefit from HMD.
Please don't tell me that he was trying to swing them to Lambeth/AMF?
Bro. Epley - do you have a vested interest in this mess?

Say it ain't so.

I will be awaiting the AMF response to your question.

[The Dean]

* * * News UPdate * * *

Did you hear that a former Missionary is coming out of retirement to help settle this matter ???


hope he succeeds

Do you know how funny that sounds? George Foreman is coming out of retirement to help the career or Mike Tyson. Anna Nicole coming out of retirement to help Brittany Spears.

How does a missionary come out of retirement? :dunno

[Guy]

Kind of like a regional manager for MacDonalds trying to turn his stores into Booger Kings because he is retiring, then turning around and asking MacDonalds for a bonus.

[Margies3]

You touched on one factor that I believe affects Missions fundraising when you said, "there are some that live far better than we do with nicer homes and full time housekeepers."

I do not personally begrudge missionaries whatever luxuries we can provide them with on the field, but it is a disincentive to asking people of limited mean to give sacrificially.

To be completely honest, I give regularly to the Foreign Missions Program, but my sacrificial giving is reserved for those who are living sacrificially.

My understanding, not just from UPC Missionaries, but also from missionaries in other denominations is that often when they go to another country it is either expected that they will hire a full time housekeeper or they do it because someone is in need of a job and they need to be able to meet that need. NOT because they are lazy and don't want to do their own work. Far from it.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you get rich doing missionary work. Not if you are doing it honest and above board.

[Nahum]

Here is what I think.

I think that every poster who participated in running down the good FM Director should apologize immediately. Bruce Howell is one of the greatest men in the Apostolic movement. He is genuine and down to earth. He is also a praying man with a burden for this world.

The insults that have been thrown his way are wholly inappropriate and border on slander.

[The Dean]

Brother Howell... may be the greatest man in Pentecost .... his humility, love for people and integrity are unmatched ... having walked side by side with him ... I see Christ. IMHO

Daniel - you have to shut that reasonable, sensical mess up now! I'm getting a little scared because I'm agreeing with you more and more. Your posts are losing that critical edge, that caustic blasting, the senseless spear hurling.

If you keep this up I'm going to end up really liking you.










:heeheehee



I have noticed a difference in your posts. They are honestly doing much to elevate your contributions to the forum.

:ty

[Starbucks]

Dean, whoever you are, Thank you!

You are correct, Brother Howell is a man of great integrity.

I hate to burst Epley and everyone elses anti-UPC rant bubble here, but I was just told that there was an attempt to remove all the churches under his care from the UPC - by this missionary.

That's why this action was taken. I hope I have earned the trust of my peers on this board, and that they will understand that my source is valid.

You see, all things are not always as they seem.

Hmmmm...was it churches or another issue that hasn't been brought up? There is a lot of speculation on both sides of this issue but no one is stating the obivious. Can't anyone see the elephant that is in the room?

I do say the individual's on the FMB and the missionaries need prayer and hopefully reconciliation to this not so pretty issue.

Cheers!

[The Dean]

Howell for GS!!!!!

Some may agee with you. I've heard as much.

[Nahum]

Some may agee with you. I've heard as much.

I would vote for him in a heartbeat.

He has gone toe to toe with the establishment, and won most of the time.

[SDG]

Daniel - you have to shut that reasonable, sensical mess up now! I'm getting a little scared because I'm agreeing with you more and more. Your posts are losing that critical edge, that caustic blasting, the senseless spear hurling.

If you keep this up I'm going to end up really liking you.


:heeheehee


I have noticed a difference in your posts. They are honestly doing much to elevate your contributions to the forum.

:ty

I cannot say enough about Bruce Howell ... his family ... his kids .... they are friends .... the greatest asset at HQ .... hands down.

I remember ... he and I spent an afternoon together in downtown NY ... it was awesome ....

[The Dean]

I would vote for him in a heartbeat.

He has gone toe to toe with the establishment, and won most of the time.

He has great burden and LIFE. He has passion that SHOWS. We desperately need that in leadership.

[Esther]

He has great burden and LIFE. He has passion that SHOWS. We desperately need that in leadership.

AMEN!

[ALVIN]

My understanding, not just from UPC Missionaries, but also from missionaries in other denominations is that often when they go to another country it is either expected that they will hire a full time housekeeper or they do it because someone is in need of a job and they need to be able to meet that need. NOT because they are lazy and don't want to do their own work. Far from it.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you get rich doing missionary work. Not if you are doing it honest and above board.

I hope that my remarks aren't construed as being critical of missionaries lifestyles. I don't have any problem with missionaries living in nice homes or having domestic servants. I can actually see where a maid, driver, gardener, etc. could be a valuable asset in freeing the missionary to do their work.

I was simply making the honest comment that it is a disincentive to sacrificial giving. I raise Missions money from blue collar workers, retirees and widows, and I try to be very careful when I ask them to give sacrificially. Their offering may very well mean that they will have to go without some things that others regard as necessities.

[Felicity]

I hope that my remarks aren't construed as being critical of missionaries lifestyles. I don't have any problem with missionaries living in nice homes or having domestic servants. I can actually see where a maid, driver, gardener, etc. could be a valuable asset in freeing the missionary to do their work.

I was simply making the honest comment that it is a disincentive to sacrificial giving. I raise Missions money from blue collar workers, retirees and widows, and I try to be very careful when I ask them to give sacrificially. Their offering may very well mean that they will have to go without some things that others regard as necessities.Your point is well taken. I'll get back to it -- I'm at work and just can't take the time now.

[Kansas Preacher]

Dean, whoever you are, Thank you!

You are correct, Brother Howell is a man of great integrity.

I hate to burst Epley and everyone elses anti-UPC rant bubble here, but I was just told that there was an attempt to remove all the churches under his care from the UPC - by this missionary.

That's why this action was taken. I hope I have earned the trust of my peers on this board, and that they will understand that my source is valid.

You see, all things are not always as they seem.

I can tell you unequivocally that your source is mistaken! That did not happen. Period.
For those of you who do not know, I am the District Superintendent of Kansas. I have been directly involved in this situation for right at a year now. That accusation has been made, but it simply is not true. The missionary did NOT try to take ANY churches out of the UPC.

[rgcraig]

Here is what I think.

I think that every poster who participated in running down the good FM Director should apologize immediately. Bruce Howell is one of the greatest men in the Apostolic movement. He is genuine and down to earth. He is also a praying man with a burden for this world.
The insults that have been thrown his way are wholly inappropriate and border on slander.

You are absolutely right! I use to work for him.......

[SDG]

You are absolutely right! I use to work for him.......

Anyone who does not know this GREAT man ... KEEP YOUR TRAP SHUT!!!!

[Steadfast]

I cannot say enough about Bruce Howell ... his family ... his kids .... they are friends .... the greatest asset at HQ .... hands down.

I remember ... he and I spent an afternoon together in downtown NY ... it was awesome ....

I know Bruce Howell and have always found him a great man.

Daniel, I'm preaching in NY in a few months. What kind of sights should I go see if I can make it in a few days early?

[Nahum]

I can tell you unequivocally that your source is mistaken! That did not happen. Period.

Believe what you will. There is the truth, and then what we want to believe.
I won't get into a shouting match with you, as you are a District Superintendent.

[Starbucks]

I can tell you unequivocally that your source is mistaken! That did not happen. Period.
For those of you who do not know, I am the District Superintendent of Kansas. I have been directly involved in this situation for right at a year now. That accusation has been made, but it simply is not true. The missionary did NOT try to take ANY churches out of the UPC.


Funny how quiet it got all of a sudden.

You're right PP when first hand info comes out, the gossip tends to quiet down a bit.

Cheers!

[SDG]

I know Bruce Howell and have always found him a great man.

Daniel, I'm preaching in NY in a few months. What kind of sights should I go see if I can make it in a few days early?

I suggest all the classic landmarks ... Times Square ... at night ... Central Park ... Canal Street ... Little Italy ... Chinatown ... Statue of Liberty ... The Empire State building .... Fifth Avenue ... Ground Zero .....YANKEE STADIUM - sit in the rightfield bleachers ... you'll never be the same !!! ... All of it .....

Who will you be preaching for ... When .....Can I tag along?????

[Starbucks]

I know Bruce Howell and have always found him a great man.

Daniel, I'm preaching in NY in a few months. What kind of sights should I go see if I can make it in a few days early?

Starbucks! Of Course! :coffee2

Cheers!

[Praxeas]

This has always bothered me. They are already giving so much of themselves on the field, then have them work for their money.....

Also, I don't like that they have to report what other money they are given and that amount is taken from their monthly support. My cousin is a missionary in Africa and she asked that we not send her money because they have to report it.
I wonder if Pastors are required to report how much money comes their way

[Steadfast]

I suggest all the classic landmarks ... Times Square ... at night ... Central Park ... Canal Street ... Little Italy ... Chinatown ... Statue of Liberty ... The Empire State building .... Fifth Avenue ... Ground Zero .....YANKEE STADIUM - sit in the rightfield bleachers ... you'll never be the same !!! ... All of it .....

Who will you be preaching for ... When .....Can I tag along?????

I'm preaching some kind of huge Youth Conference at Mitchell's Church. Going to be there with several other speakers for the conference and they are wanting me to stay over for the Sunday... something I NEVER do. Can't facilitate my schedule, though, to get home in time for my services Sunday.

[Praxeas]

I suggest all the classic landmarks ... Times Square ... at night ... Central Park ... Canal Street ... Little Italy ... Chinatown ... Statue of Liberty ... The Empire State building .... Fifth Avenue ... Ground Zero .....YANKEE STADIUM - sit in the rightfield bleachers ... you'll never be the same !!! ... All of it .....

Who will you be preaching for ... When .....Can I tag along?????
Times Sqaure...at night... Central Park IN THE DAY TIME :heeheehee

[Nahum]

I can tell you unequivocally that your source is mistaken! That did not happen. Period.
For those of you who do not know, I am the District Superintendent of Kansas. I have been directly involved in this situation for right at a year now. That accusation has been made, but it simply is not true. The missionary did NOT try to take ANY churches out of the UPC.

Bro, name drop all you want, but don't tell half of the story.

Don't imply Brother Howell is guilty of gross misconduct.
I know quite a bit about this myself.

In my opinion, none of this should be posted on here anyway.

[SDG]

I'm preaching some kind of huge Youth Conference at Mitchell's Church. Going to be there with several other speakers for the conference and they are wanting me to stay over for the Sunday... something I NEVER do. Can't facilitate my schedule, though, to get home in time for my services Sunday.

That's a great conference Omar puts together ... its a blast .... Pastor Mitchell is a great guy ... and has a contagious smile and spirit... Great building ... parking is an ISSUE .... You'll have fun!!!

[Praxeas]

That's a great conference Omar puts together ... its a blast .... Pastor Mitchell is a great guy ... and has a contagious smile and spirit... Great building ... parking is an ISSUE .... You'll have fun!!!
Omar? Is that Daniel Akmad Shabbaz Alicea's muslim cousin?:heeheehee

[Nahum]

BTW admin, what happened to the no preacher bashing rule?

[SDG]

Omar? Is that Daniel Akmad Shabbaz Alicea's muslim cousin?:heeheehee

Omar Jolly ... great guy ... with vision .... they've even had TD Jakes at their place ... New Life Tabernacle ... Click here (http://www.newlifetabernaclechurch.com/)

http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archives/20060612/cover.htm

[Praxeas]

BTW admin, what happened to the no preacher bashing rule?
Same thing that happened to the "this is a self moderated board, if you see something you feel is a violation please use the post reporting tool and the Admins will review it"

[Praxeas]

Omar Jolly ... great guy ... with vision .... they've even had TD Jakes at their place ...

http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archives/20060612/cover.htm
I heard about that. He should be glad his parents did not name him Roger...in high school when they said his name backwards would have been too much

[J-Roc]

I have noticed a difference in your posts. They are honestly doing much to elevate your contributions to the forum.

:ty


Sir or Madam: I introduce you to the real Daniel!

[Praxeas]

Sir or Madam: I introduce you to the real Daniel!
What happened to the fake Daniel? :heeheehee

[Nahum]

Then why is the hand so deep in the missionary pot?????????? On here it hs been said 15% to 17%. Next conference you guys tell your saints y'all are plundering the missionary funds that percentage and see how happy they are. I have had this conversation for years with folks who send money to missions and WITHOUT exception NONE believe the FMD was taking designated funds and using it for expenses at HQ.

Lets see, what exactly have we accused our dear FM division of here?

hmmm......

1. Theft ?
2. Extortion ?
3. Embezzlement?
4. Lying?

And who chairs that department?

[SDG]

What happened to the fake Daniel? :heeheehee

I was just marking my territory ... that's all.

[Praxeas]

I was just marking my territory ... that's all.
We noticed.....ewwwwww

[Esther]

I was just marking my territory ... that's all.

I thought that is what male dogs did? ;)

[Praxeas]

I thought that is what male dogs did? ;)
or cats....ewwwwwwww

[Steve Epley]

You guys know I don't run from a discussion but I do have a church to pastor and have a very ill saint in the hospital at Louisville I needed to see and I have church tonight.
No I have no vested interest besides knowing the missionary involved and he certainly is NOT an AMF fan, but he is a man known for his integrity and has labored for years there.
However someone might address the 17% of millions of dollars raised for DESIGNATED support that the missionaries do NOT get. Now money used for insurance and such is part of the parcel how much of the 17% is that? The percentage came from y'all not me.
I will return after church the Lord willing.
These missionaries would not be interested in the AMF I promise you.
This is the question will a holiness preacher be allowed to be a missionary any longer in the UPC?

[Sam]

So far I think we have proven it is difficual tneough to raise the missionaries budget without also making an appeal feo a separate administrative budget. IMO, it is much simpler to explain that 15-17% of funds raised is deducted for administrative expense. That figure is actually quitle low compared to comparable endeavors.

I think most people would realize there would have to be administrative expenses. I think it should be made clear that part of all offerings go toward administrative expenses.

[rrford]

You know, if you are referring to me, please keep the facts straight. I have NEVER "withheld support" from the missionaries. I don't pastor a LARGE church, but we gave around $20,000 last year to missions (both Home and Foreign).

Just so you'll know.

Forgive the faux pas. Giving around the system in place by the organization you help lead still seems a little strange to me.

[rrford]

Would you please mind explaining WHICH "policy of the UPCI" is being "directly violated?" There is no policy that says you HAVE to support missionaries through the FMD. In fact, there is no policy that says you HAVE to support missions at all.

To paraphrase your own words, I personally find it wrong for a man to hold a position in a UPCI Bible College and directly misstate facts to make another man look bad.

:tease


True enough. But I reckon "spirit of the law" would hold no validity here.

[rrford]

Felicity,

I hope you are not referring to me. Please know that rrford and I have "bantered back and forth" on other forums. Sometimes my writings come across as harsh, but that is certainly not my intention. Much of my "caustic" writing is actually tongue-in-cheek, although my points are my honest and straight-forward opinions.

I have nothing to hide in the way that I deal with missions. I do believe that I was somewhat "under attack" and tried to respond accordingly. This thread was not about me, but it seems my "friend" decided to drag me into it. (I simply decided that, if I HAD to be drug in, I would be drug in "kicking and screaming." )

I sincerely pray that my attitude is not bad.


Not even close. Not my intent at all. I never mentioned you specifically.

And if we are concerned about folks being under "attack" on Forums, have you read what they are saying about B. Howell on that other Forum you are a part of? I honestly am embarassed for the men making such comments.