Control Freaks Running The WPF??

[embonpoint]

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?

[Rev]

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?


You're not going to get many replies. you make too much sense, and it's not what most people on this site want to hear.

[bishoph]

You're not going to get many replies. you make too much sense, and it's not what most people on this site want to hear.

AMEN!

[pelathais]

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?
I would not say that the WwPF are "control freaks" and I don't think that they're trying to set up some sort of kingdom for themselves to rule.

The real "ultra-cons" of the OP movement haven't even committed with the WwPF which should tell you something.

No, it seems to me that something else is at work here and that the Res. #4 vote was just a "sign" that the movers were looking for. Many people have mentioned NW's close vote in CA recently. I think that it's fairly certain that if he had been elected he would have not been in Tulsa. He would have been loyal to his "job."

The looseness in the WwPF's structure that you describe is probably only temporary. The whole WwPF may be only temporary as well. We simply need more time to go by before evaluating what impact this will have.

I strongly feel that the initial recruiting was done in an unethical manner. What motives lay behind that is anyone's speculation. The apparent split does weaken the UPC - but the UPC was weak at the outset as evidenced by the words in my signature line.

We've got a lot of growing up to do if we are to survive as a movement.

[lovinglife]

You're not going to get many replies. you make too much sense, and it's not what most people on this site want to hear.

I love this statement

[Rev]

I love this statement

It's like preaching a short sermon. Would like to send an offering? Or I'll come by and pick it up just like Rev. Charles :toofunny

[lovinglife]

It's like preaching a short sermon. Would like to send an offering? Or I'll come by and pick it up just like Rev. Charles :toofunny

:2cents:2cents its all i have right now

[Rev]

:2cents:2cents its all i have right now

I think that's more than what I got in some churches. :toofunny

[Fireside]

A voice of reason, finally.

Furthermore, the original six set it up so that they will all be out of office in a few years.

Some power hungry control freaks. If that is their intent, they have gone about it in a pretty inept way.

[Rev]

A voice of reason, finally.

Furthermore, the original six set it up so that they will all be out of office in a few years.

Some power hungry control freaks. If that is their intent, they have gone about it in a pretty inept way.

It's 11:40 and I have the whole site to my self, so I thought I'd just fill up every thread as being the last poster!

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[Praxeas]

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

What is a control freak? Someone that HAS to be IN control right? Well if they no longer are in a position to control perhaps they decide to move on and start a new org from the ground up ensuring future control? Having said that I don't know what all or any of these men are control freaks either. They ARE an organization. An organization does not need to have all of the above in order to qualify as an organization. Don't know how you came to that conclusion


But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?

Really? when and where did you see this? Is this a fact?

[Praxeas]

It's like preaching a short sermon. Would like to send an offering? Or I'll come by and pick it up just like Rev. Charles :toofunny
Revren Charls...bbbbbut I ain't got no church right now so....ttttell ya what..you call me...aaaaaand I'll come pick it up (unintelligable comment)

[Cindy]

Revren Charls...bbbbbut I ain't got no church right now so....ttttell ya what..you call me...aaaaaand I'll come pick it up (unintelligable comment)

There you go being funny again.........:toofunny

[Praxeas]

Eh....but I was being serious.....:happydance

[Neck]

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?

They do however pastor churches.

These saints will follow them to the end of the age.

No matter what brand of soapbox heft is weighted upon the people to have to carry and bare.

Thank God the weights and fetters have been shaken off some....

To me the UPCI and the WPF just preach what you can and can't do.

But never offer any sunstantial direction for growth or revivial.

They preach separation as their foot hold..

Their bylaws are always 5 times longer than their articles of faith...

[Draw4Tacos]

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?
You are wrong.

1. Paragraph # 2 does not take into account that some of the WPF's critics have become such after many years of observing the individual actions of the collective "T-6" and their detractors. Give it a little time, and you will see the heavy hand of these men - especially when dissention among their ranks occurs.

2. While the WPF does not at this time appear to do the things you mention, have you considered that since this is a "start-up," just maybe they are going to accrue capital for a period of time before embarking on an infrastructure expansion? Could it be that a few of the larger churches affiliated with the WPF will in fact ordain ministers from other smaller churches, offering them a "daughter work" package, providing the support and resources that these pastors will lose by leaving the UPC? After all, what are those dues and tithes they intend to collect going to be used for anyway?

3. The detractors want to kick these men out because they have betrayed the "good faith" ascribed to them by their affiliation with the UPC, and have in fact breached the contract they joined into by affiliating. I don’t want to be mean, but the UPC isn’t the only corporate entity where a person can excel and gain notoriety, power and wealth by simple virtue of their smooth speaking ability and perceived wisdom. This is not rocket science, no, it is much more important than that. However, some seem to believe that by adding a few letters to the end of their name, they have increased in stature and power. A humble grandmother who reads and believes her Bible with a clear God-given understanding can accomplish more than a misguided, puffed-up suit in crocodile shoes with a degree in exegetical theology. On the other hand, there is most definitely nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge by attending seminary; I just want to be clear that some are easily swayed by simple verbal wordsmithing. These men were/are licensed ministers with the UPC, and as such agreed to the statement "...admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body."

4. Of course the WPF places no restriction on affiliation. After all, one of the "T-6" is running a Bible college affiliated with Patten University, a Trinitarian organization. Ask yourself this question: What is more harmful - advertising a UPC church on TV, or affiliating with a group that willfully spreads false Trinitarian doctrine? If said T-6 member wanted to have a Bible College, he should have petitioned the UPC for the currently unused charter formerly assigned to Conquers Bible College in Portland, Oregon. Then again, maybe that wouldn’t have fit into the long-range planning that is finally coming to fruition.

So, to answer your question, no one in the UPC is trying to control these "wayward" bretheren. They are simply going to hold them to the terms of the agreement that their affiliation entailed.

[embonpoint]

What is a control freak? Someone that HAS to be IN control right? Well if they no longer are in a position to control perhaps they decide to move on and start a new org from the ground up ensuring future control? Having said that I don't know what all or any of these men are control freaks either. They ARE an organization. An organization does not need to have all of the above in order to qualify as an organization. Don't know how you came to that conclusion
I was not arguing whether or not they are an organization, but pointing out why they assert they are not. But since you bring it up, :) the UPC manual only precludes belonging to secret societies and being licensed or ordained by another organization. They're definitely not secret and do not license or ordain so even if they are another organization it doesn't matter, theoretically.

Really? when and where did you see this? Is this a fact?


Well it seems I've seen it almost daily right here on AFF. Just a few examples picked at random without trying to put any particular posters on the spot. In the interest of full disclosure these quotes are all truncated.

As to having a meeting without permission how about the SG letter
January 8, 2008
[/B] If these men still hold their UPC credentials, then this meeting is ministerially unethical. The Oklahoma District was not contacted or informed about this meeting.[B][U]……..
…. Some who are leading this meeting have well-earned reputations for not finishing what they start, proselytizing, and wanting to be the kingpin of something. Some of the names printed on promotional materials for "Tampa" have been used without consent (another ploy previously used by some of the preferred leaders).

Iviting without permission
To use the the UPC mailing list you must state the reason, cause or event that you are promoting. How do you imagine J.J. let this one get by?
I can answer that: he didn't. The list was obtained for another purpose and then used for the WwPF mailing.

Having divided financial allegiance

So.....If I am upc AND wwpf.....where does my financial alliegence lie? ….They WILL want their members to support their works.
So whats a "Dual" membership man to do???
I say this...ITS a ploy to get them in the door.
I just have serious problems with the "dual" thing.....

On being based on control

I know some of these guys personally. They are very controlling. At least the guys in my district.

Tulsa, in my mind, has proven itself to be about having control.
These are just a few examples but hope they answer your question as to my source.

[embonpoint]

You are wrong.

1. Paragraph # 2 does not take into account that some of the WPF's critics have become such after many years of observing the individual actions of the collective "T-6" and their detractors. Give it a little time, and you will see the heavy hand of these men - especially when dissention among their ranks occurs.

2. While the WPF does not at this time appear to do the things you mention, have you considered that since this is a "start-up," just maybe they are going to accrue capital for a period of time before embarking on an infrastructure expansion? Could it be that a few of the larger churches affiliated with the WPF will in fact ordain ministers from other smaller churches, offering them a "daughter work" package, providing the support and resources that these pastors will lose by leaving the UPC? After all, what are those dues and tithes they intend to collect going to be used for anyway?

3. The detractors want to kick these men out because they have betrayed the "good faith" ascribed to them by their affiliation with the UPC, and have in fact breached the contract they joined into by affiliating. I don’t want to be mean, but the UPC isn’t the only corporate entity where a person can excel and gain notoriety, power and wealth by simple virtue of their smooth speaking ability and perceived wisdom. This is not rocket science, no, it is much more important than that. However, some seem to believe that by adding a few letters to the end of their name, they have increased in stature and power. A humble grandmother who reads and believes her Bible with a clear God-given understanding can accomplish more than a misguided, puffed-up suit in crocodile shoes with a degree in exegetical theology. On the other hand, there is most definitely nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge by attending seminary; I just want to be clear that some are easily swayed by simple verbal wordsmithing. These men were/are licensed ministers with the UPC, and as such agreed to the statement "...admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body."

4. Of course the WPF places no restriction on affiliation. After all, one of the "T-6" is running a Bible college affiliated with Patten University, a Trinitarian organization. Ask yourself this question: What is more harmful - advertising a UPC church on TV, or affiliating with a group that willfully spreads false Trinitarian doctrine? If said T-6 member wanted to have a Bible College, he should have petitioned the UPC for the currently unused charter formerly assigned to Conquers Bible College in Portland, Oregon. Then again, maybe that wouldn’t have fit into the long-range planning that is finally coming to fruition.

So, to answer your question, no one in the UPC is trying to control these "wayward" bretheren. They are simply going to hold them to the terms of the agreement that their affiliation entailed.

I was making an observation from the sideline. And asking a question. I still believe the observation is valid and the question pertinent
.
Btw I have been either in the fray or on the sideline for some time.

You seem to have a problem with one particular organizer and that is too bad.
My experience is that the "admonition" you quote has long been a handy tool to "control" the actions of others. It seem to vary broadly in its application.

Again I ask who is seeking to control whom?

[Fireside]

It's funny that I have had to read slurs about uneducated, ignorant, hayseed preachers around here forever, until all of a sudden we have one of the Tulsa men with a degree, and now we are reading about puffed up suits with letters following their name, and how a simple grandmother can do more for God. :)

Just another item to drop in the file labeled "Things That Make You Go Hmmmm."

:)

[Mr. Steinway]

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
They do have a membership that includes memberships dues! :)

Affiliate churches
Well duhhh! Do you think they would get any churches to join them if they had to be affilated?

Have Districts with all their officials
It's just now getting off the ground! Let's check it out in ten years!

Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.
If they have no wish to be an organization, they could have been much more effective being a sub group of the UPCI.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they held a meeting without permission
Since when did a UPCI pastor need permission to hold a meeting?

Invited ministers without org approval
They used the UPCI mailing list without premission. This mailing list is the property of the UPCI. This meeting was not in the best interest of the UPCI.

Have financial involvement out side the org
???????

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?
An interesting question! When they lost control of the UPCI by losing res #4, they took their ball to start a new group which they COULD control!

The answer to your question is obvious!

Thanks for the post! :D

[Joseph Miller]

To me the UPCI and the WPF just preach what you can and can't do.

But never offer any sunstantial direction for growth or revivial.



Nate I think you are wrong here at least when it comes to the UPCI. There are a LOT of churches where they preach more than what you can and can't do and for the most part the UPCI churches are having revival.

[ForeverBlessed]

To me the UPCI and the WPF just preach what you can and can't do. But never offer any sunstantial direction for growth or revivial..

They preach separation as their foot hold....

Their bylaws are always 5 times longer than their articles of faith...

To me, that statement is too broad concerning the UPCI. I'm sorry that your experience hasn't been that great...and I do understand because I've heard it in other churches... but not all UPCI churches spend their time teaching standards. My pastor spends his time preaching faith, prayer, growth and revival.. In 4 years, i have yet to hear one message on standards or anything associated with them.

Of course the Tulsa group would consider the church liberal and wouldn't associate with us if they pastored in the same town.. :girlytantrum

[Jekyll]

I'm glad internet forums weren't around in the 40's.

Seriously, I hear less whining from my 11 year old. And he whines a lot (but he's getting better).

[Draw4Tacos]

I was making an observation from the sideline. And asking a question. I still believe the observation is valid and the question pertinent
.
Btw I have been either in the fray or on the sideline for some time.

You seem to have a problem with one particular organizer and that is too bad.
My experience is that the "admonition" you quote has long been a handy tool to "control" the actions of others. It seem to vary broadly in its application.

Again I ask who is seeking to control whom?


I have sat in meetings and heard (and enjoyed) the preaching of most of the T-6. That having been said, I am greatly disturbed by what they are doing, although I happen to think the UPC will be just fine after they leave. I singled out the issue of the trinitarian Bible College affiliation because I find it sadly hypocritical - an opinion I have maintained since first hearing of this unholy union. So, no, I do not have a problem with any one organizer in particular, rather, I have a problem with all six.

Why do I have a problem, you may ask?

I find it extremely disingenuous that anyone even remotely affiliated with the WPF would pretend that this is not the formation of a new organization. This one deceptive issue alone is enough to warrant genuine scrutiny of these men's motives and actions.

As for who is seeking to control who, well, I firmly believe that the UPC has a right to defend itself from these predatory solicitors, and, if that is viewed as being controlling, then sobeit.

Shalom.

[Draw4Tacos]

It's funny that I have had to read slurs about uneducated, ignorant, hayseed preachers around here forever, until all of a sudden we have one of the Tulsa men with a degree, and now we are reading about puffed up suits with letters following their name, and how a simple grandmother can do more for God. :)

Just another item to drop in the file labeled "Things That Make You Go Hmmmm."

:)

Coonskinner,

I'm new here, so I haven't read the posts you refer to.

So, I previously wrote:

A humble grandmother who reads and believes her Bible with a clear God-given understanding can accomplish more than a misguided, puffed-up suit in crocodile shoes with a degree in exegetical theology. On the other hand, there is most definitely nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge by attending seminary; I just want to be clear that some are easily swayed by simple verbal wordsmithing.

I wholeheartedly support the idea of extensive theological study. My comments were directed toward the idea that just because someone is a smooth talker doesn't mean they are speaking truth. The key word present in my diatribe is "misguided." This was not specifically directed toward the T-6, but a general observation in regard to pure motives versus a misguided agenda.

Shalom.

[Jekyll]

Coonskinner,

I'm new here, so I haven't read the posts you refer to.

So, I previously wrote:

A humble grandmother who reads and believes her Bible with a clear God-given understanding can accomplish more than a misguided, puffed-up suit in crocodile shoes with a degree in exegetical theology. On the other hand, there is most definitely nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge by attending seminary; I just want to be clear that some are easily swayed by simple verbal wordsmithing.

I wholeheartedly support the idea of extensive theological study. My comments were directed toward the idea that just because someone is a smooth talker doesn't mean they are speaking truth. The key word present in my diatribe is "misguided." This was not specifically directed toward the T-6, but a general observation in regard to pure motives versus a misguided agenda.

Shalom.
He's talking (taking liberties here, CS) about people here attacking the character of men of God on both ends of an educational spectrum because they are too self righteous to not have SOMETHING to complain about.

[pelathais]

I'm glad internet forums weren't around in the 40's.

Seriously, I hear less whining from my 11 year old. And he whines a lot (but he's getting better).

He's talking (taking liberties here, CS) about people here attacking the character of men of God on both ends of an educational spectrum because they are too self righteous to not have SOMETHING to complain about.
But where would any of us be without Jekyll complaining about the "complainers?" Jekyll rocks!

[Praxeas]

But where would any of us be without Jekyll complaining about the "complainers?" Jekyll rocks!
A forum for whiners that whine about whiners?

[embonpoint]

The answer to your question is obvious!

Thanks for the post! :D

Well we agree that the answer is obvious.:highfive

Its just defining the obvious that seems to give us trouble. :happydance

[rkentsmith]

A voice of reason, finally.

Furthermore, the original six set it up so that they will all be out of office in a few years.

Some power hungry control freaks. If that is their intent, they have gone about it in a pretty inept way.


There was power mongering in Tulsa

[embonpoint]

There was power mongering in Tulsa

OK.........................???

[scotty]

They do however pastor churches.

These saints will follow them to the end of the age.

No matter what brand of soapbox heft is weighted upon the people to have to carry and bare.

Thank God the weights and fetters have been shaken off some....

To me the UPCI and the WPF just preach what you can and can't do.

But never offer any sunstantial direction for growth or revivial.

They preach separation as their foot hold..

Their bylaws are always 5 times longer than their articles of faith...


Brother there are threads on this forum that I simply don't reply to because I already know that my belief is biased one way or another.

You not only ignore that simple show of respect for others but you take it to a whole new level. It is more than obvious that you apparently had a bad experience with UPCI and I think its safe to say that everyone here knows also. Your bias is not only tilted so far that your post are almost silly but you can be insulting to many who don't have that experience. As one brother has said the UPCI has went through and is in the middle of a change for about the past year. Anyone who experienced BOTT this year knows that. My pastor preaches grace, mercy, evangalism, love, revival... likewise I haven't heard any preaching on standards or such. Your generalization of the whole organization is almost assinine.

Here is one for you,

Maybe its not UPCI that has the problem, maybe you have a submission problem, maybe you are simply not obedient to the will of God, maybe you have turned your back on the true love of Christ.

Silly, huh?!?

Now lets add your charactor to that.

Everyone not UPCI has a problem with submission and obedience to the will of God and thus all not in the UPCI have turned there back on the true love of Christ.

Guess I look pretty silly right now huh?!?!....Well bro. you look like this about every time you post.

You need to visit Sis Barbs thread "No man is an Island"

[Rev]

Brother there are threads on this forum that I simply don't reply to because I already know that my belief is biased one way or another.

You not only ignore that simple show of respect for others but you take it to a whole new level. It is more than obvious that you apparently had a bad experience with UPCI and I think its safe to say that everyone here knows also. Your bias is not only tilted so far that your post are almost silly but you can be insulting to many who don't have that experience. As one brother has said the UPCI has went through and is in the middle of a change for about the past year. Anyone who experienced BOTT this year knows that. My pastor preaches grace, mercy, evangalism, love, revival... likewise I haven't heard any preaching on standards or such. Your generalization of the whole organization is almost assinine.

Here is one for you,

Maybe its not UPCI that has the problem, maybe you have a submission problem, maybe you are simply not obedient to the will of God, maybe you have turned your back on the true love of Christ.

Silly, huh?!?

Now lets add your charactor to that.

Everyone not UPCI has a problem with submission and obedience to the will of God and thus all not in the UPCI have turned there back on the true love of Christ.

Guess I look pretty silly right now huh?!?!....Well bro. you look like this about every time you post.

You need to visit Sis Barbs thread "No man is an Island"

Very well said - I didn't answer the post for the reason you mentioned.

[pelathais]

Brother there are threads on this forum that I simply don't reply to because I already know that my belief is biased one way or another.

You not only ignore that simple show of respect for others but you take it to a whole new level. It is more than obvious that you apparently had a bad experience with UPCI and I think its safe to say that everyone here knows also. Your bias is not only tilted so far that your post are almost silly but you can be insulting to many who don't have that experience. As one brother has said the UPCI has went through and is in the middle of a change for about the past year. Anyone who experienced BOTT this year knows that. My pastor preaches grace, mercy, evangalism, love, revival... likewise I haven't heard any preaching on standards or such. Your generalization of the whole organization is almost assinine.

Here is one for you,

Maybe its not UPCI that has the problem, maybe you have a submission problem, maybe you are simply not obedient to the will of God, maybe you have turned your back on the true love of Christ.

Silly, huh?!?

Now lets add your charactor to that.

Everyone not UPCI has a problem with submission and obedience to the will of God and thus all not in the UPCI have turned there back on the true love of Christ.

Guess I look pretty silly right now huh?!?!....Well bro. you look like this about every time you post.

You need to visit Sis Barbs thread "No man is an Island"
Obviously Nathan is speaking from his experience. My own experience is similar but I sometimes do hear from people that sincerely say that they have never experienced the control and "weights" that Nate describes.

The issue of "control" within the UPC and its derivitives like the WwPF is prevalent enough that volumes have been written about it. Even our own culture attempts to address the issue. The first time I ever heard NA Urshan preach was in the church I attended in the late 70's and he preached about the "preaching fads" that we go through. He preached this same theme at a General Conference at about this same time.

Brother Urshan described the "tough preacher" as being a fad that he hoped that we had passed. He went on to describe the quitensential overbearing and control minded Apostolic preacher that Nate describes. if the General Superintendent was traveling the country and speaking out about this, then I don't think it was an isolated problem.

The fact that we have a group that wants to split off now after the UPC, for the first time in its history, stood up against the "control" movement would tell me that the problem still exists.

And FWIW - it's fair to challenge Nates assertions and his opinions. You did that when you said that you though he was "over generalizing." That's a fair criticism to make. However, to question his "charactor" (sic) goes beyond the pale. Stick to the issues and the information. Leave the judgments to the One who knows the heart.

[RevBuddy]

They do however pastor churches.

These saints will follow them to the end of the age.

No matter what brand of soapbox heft is weighted upon the people to have to carry and bare.

Thank God the weights and fetters have been shaken off some....

To me the UPCI and the WPF just preach what you can and can't do.

But never offer any sunstantial direction for growth or revivial.

They preach separation as their foot hold..

Their bylaws are always 5 times longer than their articles of faith...

Look out! Your bitterness is oozing again... :stirpot

[ogatt]

They do however pastor churches.

These saints will follow them to the end of the age.

No matter what brand of soapbox heft is weighted upon the people to have to carry and bare.

Thank God the weights and fetters have been shaken off some....

To me the UPCI and the WPF just preach what you can and can't do.

But never offer any sunstantial direction for growth or revivial.

They preach separation as their foot hold..

Their bylaws are always 5 times longer than their articles of faith...

Young man you must be living in a cave.

The upc and wpf are liberals. they have bowed to political correctness and dont preach against anything.

their bylaws are a joke. My bylaws would work as a boat anchor in a hurricane.
where is it written in their bylaws about
white shirts
sideburn lengths
partin hair down the middle
beatles and hank willams sr music
paper skirts for visitin ladys in pants(mandatory)
drums in the church
black ties only
scheduled vacations approved by the pastor
glass front washing machines (used to be only in laundromats, now in homes)
short sleeves (if you wear short sleeves at our church you better have 12 inch arms)
8mm projectors


i would post the whole list but my hard drive wont hold it.

i do read it every sunday nite before we dismiss.

[Sandra]

Had breakfast with Cindy Austin, her brother Robby Mitchell is married to Lisa Godair
.I knew that the Godairs were with this new group but didn't realize he was the head honcho. Cindy said he is the number one guy. She said Robbie just took Jesse Williams church and she doesn't see Robbie leaving the UPC.

[rgcraig]

Had breakfast with Cindy Austin, her brother Robby Mitchell is married to Lisa Godair
.I knew that the Godairs were with this new group but didn't realize he was the head honcho. Cindy said he is the number one guy. She said Robbie just took Jesse Williams church and she doesn't see Robbie leaving the UPC.

It's my understanding there are SIX number one guys.

[ogatt]

i forgot
hair spray
curlers
trimming dead ends(hair grows from the scalp anyways)
black wingtips for men or cowboy boots required
chrome or gold belt bukles prohibited
i used to preach against women shaving their legs
but i told sister ogatt a few years ago
"one of us has to shave our legs"
so i have eased up on that one. But if you are a widow you shouldnt shave.
no doctors...
i'm tired of these hypocrites preaching against doctors and going to dentists and eye doctors
if God can heal your body then he can grow you some new teeth and heal your eyes.

[rgcraig]

Rev. Ogatt,

Do you allow deodorant?

[TrmptPraise]

Ok...I have to admit it again....reading Bro. Ogatt's wit and wisdom IS my guilty pleasure. :toofunny

[Mr. Steinway]

It's my understanding there are SIX number one guys.
:lol

[Mr. Steinway]

Ok...I have to admit it again....reading Bro. Ogatt's wit and wisdom IS my guilty pleasure. :toofunny
True! I would like to meet Ogatt in person! :D

[ogatt]

Rev. Ogatt,

Do you allow deodorant?
unscented only and no sprays .had a saint using it as hairspray trying to beat the system. Dried her hair up like the mojave desert.

[Rev]

True! I would like to meet Ogatt in person! :D

I think you can see a picture of him on this site!

[Mr. Steinway]

I think you can see a picture of him on this site!
Where?

[Rev]

unscented only and no sprays .had a saint using it as hairspray trying to beat the system. Dried her hair up like the mojave desert.

Ogatt it looks like you have gotten a spell checker. Are you also turning to technology? I thought you use to preach against that. Are you backslid?

[Rev]

Where?

Can't tell!

[ogatt]

i got a miram wester dictionalry but it takes me to long to find the words especially when i feel the ointmnet moving when im typing.

no spell checker on a 486 running dos

[Mr. Steinway]

Can't tell!

:banghead:foottap

[Mr. Steinway]

i got a miram wester dictionalry but it takes me to long to find the words especially when i feel the ointmnet moving when im typing.

no spell checker on a 486 running dos
What are you doing with a worldly book?

[Rev]

i got a miram wester dictionalry but it takes me to long to find the words especially when i feel the ointmnet moving when im typing.

no spell checker on a 486 running dos

Talk around the issues uh! The issue is are you backslid?

[ogatt]

i had to black out words like television, video so it wont be in my house

[rgcraig]

unscented only and no sprays .had a saint using it as hairspray trying to beat the system. Dried her hair up like the mojave desert.

Then she probably wanted to cut it.

Shame, shame.

[ogatt]

Talk around the issues uh! The issue is are you backslid?

im in the way the bright and shinin way.

here is where im preachin on sunday. A fellow pastor. he lives far enough away i dont have to worry about him stealin sheep.

[Rev]

im in the way the bright and shinin way.

here is where im preachin on sunday. A fellow pastor. he lives far enough away i dont have to worry about him stealin sheep.

Funny how you know so many songs.

[rgcraig]

Funny how you know so many songs.

What's funny about that? I know all those, don't you?

I'd sure hope a preacher would too.

[Rev]

What's funny about that? I know all those, don't you?

I'd sure hope a preacher would too.

The Rev isn't so bright, but he can seem to remember songs.

[rgcraig]

The Rev isn't so bright, but he can seem to remember songs.

Yep, I've been singing "I'm in the way, the bright and shinning way" ever since I read that - - lol!

[TrmptPraise]

im in the way the bright and shinin way

As I heard a great man :whistle state one time, "Yes, you are!..and if you don't mind the rest of God's people would like to get through!"

[Rev]

As I heard a great man :whistle state one time, "Yes, you are!..and if you don't mind the rest of God's people would like to get through!"

:toofunny :toofunny

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:

[rgcraig]

As I heard a great man :whistle state one time, "Yes, you are!..and if you don't mind the rest of God's people would like to get through!"

Lol....I use to think that too!