WPF in talks with Philippines UPC

[Minister_WD]

Reports indicate that Bro. Steve Buxton, Bro. Johnny King, and Bro. Charles Harris are headed to the Philippines.

On Wednesday of this week, they are scheduled to meet with 50 Oneness Pastors in the Philippines that represent 30,000+ members (UPC?). These pastors are interested in the WPF and have expressed interest in being linked with it. According to Bro. Buxton, this would be "huge" for the WPF.

[Felicity]

Reports indicate that Bro. Steve Buxton, Bro. Johnny King, and Bro. Charles Harris are headed to the Philippines.

On Wednesday of this week, they are scheduled to meet with 50 Oneness Pastors in the Philippines that represent 30,000+ members (UPC?). These pastors are interested in the WPF and have expressed interest in being linked with it. According to Bro. Buxton, this would be "huge" for the WPF.Is this what it's all about?

[pelathais]

Reports indicate that Bro. Steve Buxton, Bro. Johnny King, and Bro. Charles Harris are headed to the Philippines.

On Wednesday of this week, they are scheduled to meet with 50 Oneness Pastors in the Philippines that represent 30,000+ members (UPC?). These pastors are interested in the WPF and have expressed interest in being linked with it. According to Bro. Buxton, this would be "huge" for the WPF.
Millions in the Phillipines have never heard the Gospel. Some islands haven't ever been evangelized. And the WwPF response to this is more recruiting of other OP's. Will positions on a new "World Council" be offered?

[Hoovie]

If true, this is sickening, and should open the eyes of some that have aligned themselves with WPF already.

[AGAPE]

Where Did You Get This Info Wd???????????????

[blueaugust]

Now I am a UPC pastor from the Philippines and I think it's not the UPC pastors that they are after but rather the scattered oneness apostolic independent churches. And unlike the Independent churches in North America, to which I find a lot of sincere people with right attitudes and spirits, a lot of the independents here in the Philippines are a tumultuous bunch. They are independent because they refused to submit themselves to authority and have left the UPC because of immorality and local church financial issues.

If they are the target of WPF, then I have to say that they would have a hard time organizing this people as this professing pastors themselves doesn't respect each other nor are they willing to cooperate with each other because of leadership issues. PAW has tried to organized them a year or two ago trying to give a whole lot of money as incentives to these men but the effort was really futile. Up to now there is no sizeable organized PAW churches in the Philippines.

And also, even if WPF be successful in organizing this bunch, The highest number of people that these pastors could gather would just be around ten thousand people (maximum) and not 30 thousand as the original poster has said. Compared to the UPC Philippines 2,500+ pastors, 2,500+ churches and preaching points, and around 300,000 constituents, that's the best number this independents will come up with.

As an added info for all brothers in North America, most of us UPC pastors in the Philippines are progressive moderates that doesn't have any strong convictions against T.V. We are even wondering as to why there's all this fuzz about people in the US and Canada leaving the organization just because of the TV.

A lot of us are also privately offended when Bro. Johnny King came here in the Philippines on one of our district conferences in Manila, trying to impose, during his preachings, his convictions against video cameras, still photography, and even short sleeves. But we still welcomed him and showed him true Filipino hospitality as we know that he is a brother in the Lord and is someone who has also worked hard in the Lord's harvest...

Excluding Apollo Quibuloy, a guy who is teaching that he is the returned Son of God that has ushered the Millennial Kingdom some years ago; and Wilde Almeda that teaches that he is the only pastor that God has called for the whole world, teaching that Christians shouldn't go to a doctor nor a hospital; and knowing the fact that these two independents do have regular T.V. shows; there really aren't any oneness apostolic organization besides UPCI that the WPF could take advantage of here in the Philippines.

The third week of February is our General Conference here and I would gladly give an update if ever there's any news of this matter in here...

Please remember that I am not degrading all independent pastors in general for this matter. It's just that I have first hand experiences with these people I'm talking about...

And also for the record, the Philippines is a well evangelized country and that Apostolic Teaching is already widespread, with nearly all towns and cities having at least one apostolic local church. You guys might be shocked to know that plans are now being laid for the Filipinos to take the place of American Missionaries in evangelizing other Asian countries that are still bound to paganism. It's for the reason that Filipino Missionaries doesn't really cost that much to support unlike their American counterparts...

Ooooopppss! I think the last paragraph should be on a new thread and not on this one... :D

[Hoovie]

THanks a bundle BA!

This is a very informative post... as they say... "from the horses mouth"! ;)

Blessings to you and the Philipino UPC.

[blueaugust]

... I just notice the original poster's statement that the trip is to contact 50 pastors from the Philippines... If it's really just fifty, the amount of people these men could gather would not even reach 5,000. So forget the 30,000 figure. Filipino oneness apostolic churches averages at only 80 attendees...

Well, I know for a fact that Bishop C. Harris is going to be here in Manila (not sure if it's last week or this week) as he has personally PMed me about it at one of the other apostolic forums. But I'm not really sure if it's the same man of God that Minister_WD and I are talking about as I do not really know Bishop C. Harris except for a few exchanges of PMs.

I do hope that if it's for the glory of God, may their trip be safe and fruitful... And that if it's a little "off-path" within God's will, may God grant them wisdom as I do believe that these guys are true men of God also...

[Mr. Steinway]

Very interesting thread! :)

[Steve Epley]

I know of a good independent work there that has been there for nearly 40 years. They have a beautiful headquarters church and bible school and teach a high standard of holiness and very solid on Apostolic doctrine. I know the missionary and many brethren who have been there through the years. This group is not going to become part of the WPF.

[Sister Alvear]

If their goal is to gather up discontent pastors and offer salaries like some people to to try to hurry and have an instant work it will be instant alright! However it will NOT stand the process of time...I have watched things like that happen over and over.

[Sister Alvear]

If that is the way the wpf works they show they know very little about REAL missionary life...that will cause LOTS of friction among both missionaries and nationals...

[Esther]

Now I am a UPC pastor from the Philippines and I think it's not the UPC pastors that they are after but rather the scattered oneness apostolic independent churches. And unlike the Independent churches in North America, to which I find a lot of sincere people with right attitudes and spirits, a lot of the independents here in the Philippines are a tumultuous bunch. They are independent because they refused to submit themselves to authority and have left the UPC because of immorality and local church financial issues.

If they are the target of WPF, then I have to say that they would have a hard time organizing this people as this professing pastors themselves doesn't respect each other nor are they willing to cooperate with each other because of leadership issues. PAW has tried to organized them a year or two ago trying to give a whole lot of money as incentives to these men but the effort was really futile. Up to now there is no sizeable organized PAW churches in the Philippines.

And also, even if WPF be successful in organizing this bunch, The highest number of people that these pastors could gather would just be around ten thousand people (maximum) and not 30 thousand as the original poster has said. Compared to the UPC Philippines 2,500+ pastors, 2,500+ churches and preaching points, and around 300,000 constituents, that's the best number this independents will come up with.

As an added info for all brothers in North America, most of us UPC pastors in the Philippines are progressive moderates that doesn't have any strong convictions against T.V. We are even wondering as to why there's all this fuzz about people in the US and Canada leaving the organization just because of the TV.

A lot of us are also privately offended when Bro. Johnny King came here in the Philippines on one of our district conferences in Manila, trying to impose, during his preachings, his convictions against video cameras, still photography, and even short sleeves. But we still welcomed him and showed him true Filipino hospitality as we know that he is a brother in the Lord and is someone who has also worked hard in the Lord's harvest...

Excluding Apollo Quibuloy, a guy who is teaching that he is the returned Son of God that has ushered the Millennial Kingdom some years ago; and Wilde Almeda that teaches that he is the only pastor that God has called for the whole world, teaching that Christians shouldn't go to a doctor nor a hospital; and knowing the fact that these two independents do have regular T.V. shows; there really aren't any oneness apostolic organization besides UPCI that the WPF could take advantage of here in the Philippines.

The third week of February is our General Conference here and I would gladly give an update if ever there's any news of this matter in here...

Please remember that I am not degrading all independent pastors in general for this matter. It's just that I have first hand experiences with these people I'm talking about...

And also for the record, the Philippines is a well evangelized country and that Apostolic Teaching is already widespread, with nearly all towns and cities having at least one apostolic local church. You guys might be shocked to know that plans are now being laid for the Filipinos to take the place of American Missionaries in evangelizing other Asian countries that are still bound to paganism. It's for the reason that Filipino Missionaries doesn't really cost that much to support unlike their American counterparts...

Ooooopppss! I think the last paragraph should be on a new thread and not on this one... :D

Did I understand you to say he preaches against photographs?

[Sister Alvear]

If they want instant works they will only see a lot of wild fire and then it will die down...seen it too many times on the field...most natives will run for the money but will also run to the next handhand....if they want a REAL lasting work they should listen to advice of seasoned missionaies that LIVE on the field.

[George]

If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join WPF is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."

[Sister Alvear]

I know a few they might get but how long they stay would be another story...sounds like history repeats itself.
I am really upset if this is true because I did not think these men would do something like this...but I do know something was tried on another field but the missionary set them straight. I sure hope they don't come offering money to Brazil and causing trouble for us missionaries. We have enough on us fighting the dark powers of the enemy...if they want something on some field help some good missionary is my advice. Yes, I happen to know a few rotten apples but I know a whole lot more that are true blue.

[Felicity]

Great comments by Sis. Alvear :thumbsup and knowing what I do, blueaugust's comments sound credible.

This is not about dissing WPF by the way. Comments typical to the "this will be huge for the WPF" remark have been made by the UPC and other organizations as well.

Just to be fair and all ......... ;)

[stmatthew]

If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join WPF is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."

Lets rephrase that another way so we cover all the bases.


"If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join the UPCI is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."

[Sister Alvear]

Some natives and some missioanries may just be looking for opportunities but the REAL CALL of GOD will think twice about any decision for decisions made on the mission field have long and lasting effects both good and bad.
Money may sound good...I know many times it is so needed however we must think about the end results of easy quick money...

[Sister Alvear]

MONEY...if not cafeful generates greed the most dependable of all vices...

[Hoovie]

Lets rephrase that another way so we cover all the bases.


"If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join the UPCI is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."

I understand the folks in question are currently UPC.

[StMark]

Does anyone know if Bro Mallary knows about this ???

If so I wonder what his reaction was upon hearing this.

[Steve Epley]

Does anyone know if Bro Mallary knows about this ???

If so I wonder what his reaction was upon hearing this.

Maybe he will write a letter?:stirpot

[NW Pastor]

Does anyone know if Bro Mallary knows about this ???

If so I wonder what his reaction was upon hearing this.

I'll tell him today. He will not be pleased. He is looking forward to uniting rival factions for a united push for greater revival. This can't be helpful.

Whoever they are courting over it will not have the blessing of any of the leadership there. Much like here in that respect.

[StMark]

Maybe he will write a letter?:stirpot

inquiring minds want to know all :happydance

[StMark]

I'll tell him today. He will not be pleased. He is looking forward to uniting rival factions for a united push for greater revival. This can't be helpful.

Whoever they are courting over it will not have the blessing of any of the leadership there. Much like here in that respect.



be sure and let us know his thoughts on it

[NW Pastor]

Maybe he will write a letter?:stirpot

After years of spilt blood, sweat, tears, and prayers over that work, I can guarantee he will do more than write a letter.

[NW Pastor]

be sure and let us know his thoughts on it

I'll let you know, but if I know him he never does anything in a corner or behind closed doors. Whatever is done will be in the open and known to all.

[SecretWarrior]

Reports indicate that Bro. Steve Buxton, Bro. Johnny King, and Bro. Charles Harris are headed to the Philippines.

On Wednesday of this week, they are scheduled to meet with 50 Oneness Pastors in the Philippines that represent 30,000+ members (UPC?). These pastors are interested in the WPF and have expressed interest in being linked with it. According to Bro. Buxton, this would be "huge" for the WPF.


Steve Buxton traveled with Bro. Mallory on one or more of the crusades.I would venture to say he's taking valuable information and using to the advantage of WPF.If what is being said here is true,one can invision Mallory making a journey to the Philippines to set things in order

[Rev]

Reports indicate that Bro. Steve Buxton, Bro. Johnny King, and Bro. Charles Harris are headed to the Philippines.

On Wednesday of this week, they are scheduled to meet with 50 Oneness Pastors in the Philippines that represent 30,000+ members (UPC?). These pastors are interested in the WPF and have expressed interest in being linked with it. According to Bro. Buxton, this would be "huge" for the WPF.

Wasn't Bishop going to the Philippines today?

[Ron]

Knowing the lack of ethics that is taught,or practiced in the Philippines, I am not surprised!

[StMark]

Knowing the lack of ethics that is taught,or practiced in the Philippines, I am not surprised!


now this is a loaded statement.

are you broad sweeping all Philippino's?? have you had business dealings with them ??

[Thumper]

Mark,

Look at the picture of Ron and his wife

:)

[StMark]

Mark,

Look at the picture of Ron and his wife

:)

yes, i know T. i just couldn't believe Ron would say something against his wife's people like that

[Ron]

yes, i know T. i just couldn't believe Ron would say something against his wife's people like that

I am married into the culture but not blind either!

I am sorry, but ethics is either not taught, nor really practiced like it should over there both in Church & in business!

[Straightline]

I believe the Missions statement of the WPF is to "find and facilitate" local indigenous works.
If the WPF wants to support men in the 'ppines, what would be wrong with that??
You actually think they will steal churches away from the UPC?

I am no apologist for the WPF, but most missionaries welcome support from wherever they can get it, not just FMD. Why can't the national pastors do the same?

When will the UPC get rid of that US vs. THEM mentality?


It's hard to stir the pot
in a
Straightline

[George]

Lets rephrase that another way so we cover all the bases.


"If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join the UPCI is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."

The UPCI started their work and that is why they are part of it. There wasn't a "joining." It was a beginning. The churches grew large enough to support itself and others.

[Hoovie]

I believe the Missions statement of the WPF is to "find and facilitate" local indigenous works.
If the WPF wants to support men in the 'ppines, what would be wrong with that??
You actually think they will steal churches away from the UPC?

I am no apologist for the WPF, but most missionaries welcome support from wherever they can get it, not just FMD. Why can't the national pastors do the same?

When will the UPC get rid of that US vs. THEM mentality?


It's hard to stir the pot
in a
Straightline


I don't doubt such a mentality exists but given the events of last few months this statement is laughable.

No one asked THEM to leave...

they are welcome to remain ultraconservative regardless how inconsistent it is.

[George]

I believe the Missions statement of the WPF is to "find and facilitate" local indigenous works.
If the WPF wants to support men in the 'ppines, what would be wrong with that??
You actually think they will steal churches away from the UPC?

I am no apologist for the WPF, but most missionaries welcome support from wherever they can get it, not just FMD. Why can't the national pastors do the same?

When will the UPC get rid of that US vs. THEM mentality?


It's hard to stir the pot
in a
Straightline

Why do they need to take control over established churches? If it is all about winning souls, they should send their own missionary and start their own work - not proselyte another church/organization.

[blueaugust]

I know of a good independent work there that has been there for nearly 40 years. They have a beautiful headquarters church and bible school and teach a high standard of holiness and very solid on Apostolic doctrine. I know the missionary and many brethren who have been there through the years. This group is not going to become part of the WPF.

Bro. Epley, would you be so kind to perhaps name this church?

[blueaugust]

Did I understand you to say he preaches against photographs?

He was telling all those that are taking photographs and those who are using video cameras to stop taking pictures and videos of the revival and lecture services...

[blueaugust]

If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join WPF is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."

I would say that in case of some Independents, that may be relatively true...

[blueaugust]

Lets rephrase that another way so we cover all the bases.


"If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join the UPCI is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."

Sorry to correct you bro. st. matthew, but the plan that I'm telling you is spearheaded by UPCI itself. It's part of the UPCI's focus in changing strategies for evangelizing the world. There is no promised money for Filipino pastors here when we were converted or when we started doing the Lord's work. UPCI missionaries don't go around here offering money to us... They came here to teach us and train us to be able ministers of the gospel. And I guess they are pretty successful with it...

Maybe you'll get a better understanding of the picture if I tell you that 98% of the UPCI pastors in here started their churches without any financial help from the Headquarters nor any secular job. We even pay for our bible school education. We are a very resourceful bunch and are really ready to suffer for Christ sake. I hope you at least respect that...

This is not to say that we are not grateful for all your help in supporting the Missionaries that came here in the Philippines. Be assured that the money your giving is being used by the missionaries in sustaining their work in training and equipping the Philippine Church. Just not the way you think it is...

[Sister Alvear]

I believe the Missions statement of the WPF is to "find and facilitate" local indigenous works.
If the WPF wants to support men in the 'ppines, what would be wrong with that??
You actually think they will steal churches away from the UPC?

I am no apologist for the WPF, but most missionaries welcome support from wherever they can get it, not just FMD. Why can't the national pastors do the same?

When will the UPC get rid of that US vs. THEM mentality?


It's hard to stir the pot
in a
Straightline


I can see you are not a missionary. There is nothing wrong with supporting anyone HOWEVER if nationals work under a certain leadership the leadership should be consulted or else you will have total confusion in the end.
Please NOTEI am NOT against supporting nationals but before someone steps in they should respect whatever set up and whatever organization the person is with.

Too many nationals have been runined for life because of greedy Americans that want the prestige to say they have works somewhere.

I have worked 40 years in Brazil and 10 in the Philippines...I am married to a foreigner and all my children were raised on a foreign field.

I am for nationals and have given my life to defend them BUT they do not think like Americans...

[Sister Alvear]

I have seen a lot of people both Americans and nationals RUINED by money...

[blueaugust]

I understand the folks in question are currently UPC.

That's the statement I couldn't say with my limited vocabulary... Thanks Bro. Hoover.

[blueaugust]

Maybe he will write a letter?:stirpot

Maybe he'll just sit down and smile as he intimately know the Filipino people...

[blueaugust]

Knowing the lack of ethics that is taught,or practiced in the Philippines, I am not surprised!

Could you please elaborate on this... Thank you very much if you will...

[blueaugust]

I can see you are not a missionary. There is nothing wrong with supporting anyone HOWEVER if nationals work under a certain leadership the leadership should be consulted or else you will have total confusion in the end.
Please NOTEI am NOT against supporting nationals but before someone steps in they should respect whatever set up and whatever organization the person is with.

Too many nationals have been runined for life because of greedy Americans that want the prestige to say they have works somewhere.

I have worked 40 years in Brazil and 10 in the Philippines...I am married to a foreigner and all my children were raised on a foreign field.

I am for nationals and have given my life to defend them BUT they do not think like Americans...

Thank you sis. Alvear...

[Hoovie]

That's the statement I couldn't say with my limited vocabulary... Thanks Bro. Hoover.

Ah... don't be too humble there bro. Your last few posts have not only demonstrated an excellent use of English, but also show you actually know what is going on.


Bless You!

[pelathais]

Ah... don't be too humble there bro. Your last few posts have not only demonstrated an excellent use of English, but also show you actually know what is going on.


Bless You!
I was going to say... and you've got a great looking blog too. Congrats Brother BlueAugust!

[NW Pastor]

Steve Buxton traveled with Bro. Mallory on one or more of the crusades.I would venture to say he's taking valuable information and using to the advantage of WPF.If what is being said here is true,one can invision Mallory making a journey to the Philippines to set things in order

Every revival church has its share of disgruntled and embittered independents, (Not to be confused with honest and Godly independents), and the Philippine church is no exception. The WPF can have them.

[NW Pastor]

Knowing the lack of ethics that is taught,or practiced in the Philippines, I am not surprised!

What an idiotic statement. Just because someone is married to a filipina from a particual area and familial culture does not grant license to broad brush the national church with the stinging charge of a total lack of ethics. Perhaps you ran into some difficult and disturbing situations where you were or in your wife's circle of acquaintences. Anectodal experiences, though powerful and influential on an individual basis, are often not a reflection of the group as a whole.

There are many fine, ethical men and women in that church. I sincerely hope you meet them some day and have a change of heart.

I might add, that there is seems to be dearth of ethics everywhere, including the UPCI at times and, yes, even in the WPF. So I do not despute that you may have personally run into some unethical filipinoes.

[embonpoint]

What an idiotic statement. Just because someone is married to a filipina from a particual area and familial culture does not grant license to broad brush the national church with the stinging charge of a total lack of ethics. Perhaps you ran into some difficult and disturbing situations where you were or in your wife's circle of acquaintences. Anectodal experiences, though powerful and influential on an individual basis, are often not a reflection of the group as a whole.

There are many fine, ethical men and women in that church. I sincerely hope you meet them some day and have a change of heart.

I might add, that there is seems to be dearth of ethics everywhere, including the UPCI at times and, yes, even in the WPF. So I do not despute that you may have personally run into some unethical filipinoes.


You mean, of course, the ones used to smear the WPF on nearly a daily basis on this board. :stirpot

[Ron]

Could you please elaborate on this... Thank you very much if you will...

Elaborate what?

I have been around Philippino's for twenty years & have seen ministers do anything & everything.

Not everyone is that way of course, but it happens far to frequently for there not to be ethics being taught, or followed.

Suffice it to say, there are a number of licenses that our Church could have had yanked with sufficient grounds.
Our Pastor has taught us to be forgiving.

I can not name names, but it is real.

[Ron]

What an idiotic statement. Just because someone is married to a filipina from a particual area and familial culture does not grant license to broad brush the national church with the stinging charge of a total lack of ethics. Perhaps you ran into some difficult and disturbing situations where you were or in your wife's circle of acquaintences. Anectodal experiences, though powerful and influential on an individual basis, are often not a reflection of the group as a whole.

There are many fine, ethical men and women in that church. I sincerely hope you meet them some day and have a change of heart.

I might add, that there is seems to be dearth of ethics everywhere, including the UPCI at times and, yes, even in the WPF. So I do not despute that you may have personally run into some unethical filipinoes.

If you only knew. Some of your leaders have not acted above board.

[Praxeas]

Is this what it's all about?
Well if it's true they said "you can join us and remain UPC" then I would say so

[Praxeas]

If the Filipino church is so sufficient they can send their own missionaries to other parts of the world, the only reason they would join WPF is for promised money. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Foreign language is "money."
Wow.....George...money is the language of Americans too, sheeesh nice broadbrush insult of all foreign Christians

[NW Pastor]

If you only knew. Some of your leaders have not acted above board.

And all of yours have? You must live in a part of America I have never been to.

[NW Pastor]

You mean, of course, the ones used to smear the WPF on nearly a daily basis on this board. :stirpot

The broad brush is never correct to use, such as "all men in the WPF act in an unethical manner." That would be illogical and untrue. However, to question certain actions and decisions that are known to have occured, then attempt to extrapolate from those as to the motivations for such a behavior is altogether different.

To say an entire culture or church group is unethical is wrong. A church which, by the way, has experienced some of the most phenomenal revival in the last 30 years of any nation in the world. To question the ethics or motivations of singular actions is different. That is not anectodal, my friend. That is knowing them that labor among you. Or who lead you.

[blueaugust]

I was going to say... and you've got a great looking blog too. Congrats Brother BlueAugust!

Thanks Bro. pelathais. I haven't attended to that blog for a week now I think... We've been very busy preparing for the coming UPC Philippines General Conference on this third week of February. Bro. Mallory would be the Nightly Speaker. I wonder if his preachings would reflect on some of the past events with WPF... I would love to post in here anything that might come from him verbally...

Bro Mallory, along with Bro. Carl W. Adams, are the most loved UPCI missionaries here in the Philippines...

[Ron]

The broad brush is never correct to use, such as "all men in the WPF act in an unethical manner." That would be illogical and untrue. However, to question certain actions and decisions that are known to have occured, then attempt to extrapolate from those as to the motivations for such a behavior is altogether different.

To say an entire culture or church group is unethical is wrong. A church which, by the way, has experienced some of the most phenomenal revival in the last 30 years of any nation in the world. To question the ethics or motivations of singular actions is different. That is not anectodal, my friend. That is knowing them that labor among you. Or who lead you.


First off, I have never said that "all" of the Philipino Church is unethical.
I did say and make it a little clearer than I can, from the Ministers that I have
met from the Philippine Church, I have seen a lack of ethics shown.

I said perhaps that is because it is not "Taught" or "Followed."

Yes, they are having a tremendous revival & influx of souls & I pray it continues in a greater measure.

From my observation & interaction with a lot of the Filipino brethren, it "appears" that ethics are not taught or followed.

I apologize if I did not make myself clear.

[embonpoint]

The broad brush is never correct to use, such as "all men in the WPF act in an unethical manner." That would be illogical and untrue. However, to question certain actions and decisions that are known to have occured, then attempt to extrapolate from those as to the motivations for such a behavior is altogether different.

To say an entire culture or church group is unethical is wrong. A church which, by the way, has experienced some of the most phenomenal revival in the last 30 years of any nation in the world. To question the ethics or motivations of singular actions is different. That is not anectodal, my friend. That is knowing them that labor among you. Or who lead you.

The principles you espouse are correct it is just the even application of them we might have some disagreement over.

As I have stated in other posts I am not part of the WPF and have no intention of joining. That being said my observation from the sideline is that there is a lot of character assassination by hearsay going on daily here. Some people must be developing some pretty big "guns" slingin that big brush the way they do.
:bigweightlift:

[Praxeas]

The principles you espouse are correct it is just the even application of them we might have some disagreement over.

As I have stated in other posts I am not part of the WPF and have no intention of joining. That being said my observation from the sideline is that there is a lot of character assassination by hearsay going on daily here. Some people must be developing some pretty big "guns" slingin that big brush the way they do.
:bigweightlift:
Hey...you've got a point there....not sure what it was but you got one :toofunny

[blueaugust]

Elaborate what?

I have been around Philippino's for twenty years & have seen ministers do anything & everything.

Not everyone is that way of course, but it happens far to frequently for there not to be ethics being taught, or followed.

Suffice it to say, there are a number of licenses that our Church could have had yanked with sufficient grounds.
Our Pastor has taught us to be forgiving.

I can not name names, but it is real.

Aren't these statements too exaggerated Bro. Ron? I know that sometimes the things that you have mentioned can actually happen but I do think that this is not the general atmosphere among UPCI pastors and churches here...

One question though Bro. Ron, have you been a Missionary here in the Philippines under the UPCI? Or is your fellowship with the Filipinos here among independent churches?

[blueaugust]

First off, I have never said that "all" of the Philipino Church is unethical.
I did say and make it a little clearer than I can, from the Ministers that I have
met from the Philippine Church, I have seen a lack of ethics shown.

I said perhaps that is because it is not "Taught" or "Followed."

Yes, they are having a tremendous revival & influx of souls & I pray it continues in a greater measure.

From my observation & interaction with a lot of the Filipino brethren, it "appears" that ethics are not taught or followed.

I apologize if I did not make myself clear.

Actually, among the UPC Philippines Pastors and Ministers, ethics is a very important thing. It is being taught and it is being practice. Our growth is not because of members transferring from one church to another. We won't have real growth in numbers if that's the case. Our harvest consist of souls from mainly the Catholic Church, and Trinitarian Churches as well. We wouldn't have maintain our growth and momentum if it's the other way around. I hope you understand my point of view.

Your apology makes me feel that you have a nice spirit in you Bro. Ron... I hope it's always that way with all of us in this forum... I do apologize also and ask for everybody's understanding if I couldn't make myself clear on some of my posts as English is really not my primary language...

[NW Pastor]

The principles you espouse are correct it is just the even application of them we might have some disagreement over.

As I have stated in other posts I am not part of the WPF and have no intention of joining. That being said my observation from the sideline is that there is a lot of character assassination by hearsay going on daily here. Some people must be developing some pretty big "guns" slingin that big brush the way they do.
:bigweightlift:

I agree. A lack of decorum or ethics is never to be winked at, regardless of what side you espouse. The end NEVER justifies the means. God help us to be right during these momentous times.

[Rev]

Actually, among the UPC Philippines Pastors and Ministers, ethics is a very important thing. It is being taught and it is being practice. Our growth is not because of members transferring from one church to another. We won't have real growth in numbers if that's the case. Our harvest consist of souls from mainly the Catholic Church, and Trinitarian Churches as well. We wouldn't have maintain our growth and momentum if it's the other way around. I hope you understand my point of view.

Your apology makes me feel that you have a nice spirit in you Bro. Ron... I hope it's always that way with all of us in this forum... I do apologize also and ask for everybody's understanding if I couldn't make myself clear on some of my posts as English is really not my primary language...

Hey ADmin how about giving this guy a place to post and then he can kind of give us an update on what's going on in the churches there! Mircles, how many is getting the HG, etc.

[NW Pastor]

Hey ADmin how about giving this guy a place to post and then he can kind of give us an update on what's going on in the churches there! Mircles, how many is getting the HG, etc.

Great idea! We could all use a change of pace!

[Sister Alvear]

May I say something else? I have friends both in UPC and WWF however most Americans would never know what it means to live in a third world country. Most Americans would never understand what it means to live on less than 100 dollars a month..Sometimes not even live just exist...
People from 3rd world countries are just as smart as Americans but most have never had the chance to own a car, own a home or have what most Americans consider the bare necessities of life...So many times when the flashy Americans come staying in hotels, driving rented cars and money to buy all kinds of souvenirs it is a logical fact that they are impressed.

It is not always that they are not loyal but the fact remains they must survive and many Americans thrive on that fact. Offering them a few dollars more than what they have may mean milk for their babies and rice for their tables.
Many of the nationals know nothing about all our problems in the USA and to use them to build our ego is wrong…terribly wrong. It matters not if it is UPC, ACI, WWF or whoever or whatever else.

[blueaugust]

May I say something else? I have friends both in UPC and WWF however most Americans would never know what it means to live in a third world country. Most Americans would never understand what it means to live on less than 100 dollars a month..Sometimes not even live just exist...
People from 3rd world countries are just as smart as Americans but most have never had the chance to own a car, own a home or have what most Americans consider the bare necessities of life...So many times when the flashy Americans come staying in hotels, driving rented cars and money to buy all kinds of souvenirs it is a logical fact that they are impressed.

It is not always that they are not loyal but the fact remains they must survive and many Americans thrive on that fact. Offering them a few dollars more than what they have may mean milk for their babies and rice for their tables.
Many of the nationals know nothing about all our problems in the USA and to use them to build our ego is wrong…terribly wrong. It matters not if it is UPC, ACI, WWF or whoever or whatever else.

Now that is a very factual statement there sister alvear. That is if a minister is still in his pioneering stage of establishing a church. What you have stated is a direct result of native pastors here who'd rather do fasting for the whole week rather than have a secular job to support their families.

May I add that new Filipino ministers today are more open to having dual work both as a minister and some job from the secular world. especially those that are still pioneering new churches...

[Sister Alvear]

I see the Americans through eyes of a foreigner because my husband and children are not Americans. I am so sorry for some of the things the Americans do on the foreign fields in the name of building a work.
At the same time I know that many Americans are noble and have given their whole lives on lonely mission fields many times being misunderstood by both nationals and Americans.

I love the mission field and wish the very best for the Philippine people. They are so sweet and kind...so willing to give. I don't like for any one to take advantage of someone else.

[Joseph Miller]

There has been a few negative statments made about people from the Philippines on this thread. I have never been there but we have 2 in our church. One is our Sunday School Superintendant. He is a very honest and ethical man. He is a praying man and very sensitive to the spirit.

There maybe some out there that fit what has been said on this thread but I can think of some people from every race and culture that it fits too. Let's not paint with too broad a brush.

[Rev]

Now that is a very factual statement there sister alvear. That is if a minister is still in his pioneering stage of establishing a church. What you have stated is a direct result of native pastors here who'd rather do fasting for the whole week rather than have a secular job to support their families.

May I add that new Filipino ministers today are more open to having dual work both as a minister and some job from the secular world. especially those that are still pioneering new churches...

"What you have stated is a direct result of native pastors here who'd rather do fasting for the whole week rather than have a secular job to support their families."

Does this make anyone else feel like we need to repent and do more and do better?

[blueaugust]

"What you have stated is a direct result of native pastors here who'd rather do fasting for the whole week rather than have a secular job to support their families."

Does this make anyone else feel like we need to repent and do more and do better?

Oh Bro. Rev, I only mean that these kind of convictions sometimes makes way for the devil to influence native ministers' thoughts to just blindly receive any material offers that some foreigners will offer them without balancing if what their getting into is really the will of God...

I did not intend for you to understand it some other way... :D

[George]

May I say something else? I have friends both in UPC and WWF however most Americans would never know what it means to live in a third world country. Most Americans would never understand what it means to live on less than 100 dollars a month..Sometimes not even live just exist...
People from 3rd world countries are just as smart as Americans but most have never had the chance to own a car, own a home or have what most Americans consider the bare necessities of life...So many times when the flashy Americans come staying in hotels, driving rented cars and money to buy all kinds of souvenirs it is a logical fact that they are impressed.

It is not always that they are not loyal but the fact remains they must survive and many Americans thrive on that fact. Offering them a few dollars more than what they have may mean milk for their babies and rice for their tables.
Many of the nationals know nothing about all our problems in the USA and to use them to build our ego is wrong…terribly wrong. It matters not if it is UPC, ACI, WWF or whoever or whatever else.

Well said.

[Jekyll]

Why do they need to take control over established churches? If it is all about winning souls, they should send their own missionary and start their own work - not proselyte another church/organization.
It is so funny the amount of double talk about the WPF...their numbers are downplayed but they are able to go into foreign countrys with the big guns and forcibly take mission fields over...

But, don't mind that 90% of what any one here says about the WPF is second, third, and mostly fourth hand information. Carry on with the double talk.

[MissionsJD]

I am married into the culture but not blind either!

I am sorry, but ethics is either not taught, nor really practiced like it should over there both in Church & in business!

Knowing the lack of ethics that is taught,or practiced in the Philippines, I am not surprised!

Ron,
You reveal more about yourself than you realize with this post. You have issues and I pray you get them worked out seeing as you are married to a Filipina.
I was raised in the Philippines as a missionary kid then returned with my family many different times. In fact we are leaving in 1 1/2 weeks to attend the Philippine General Conference. The truth of the matter is, while I feel I am a dedicated christian, I am not even worthy to carry the Bible of many of those UPCI ministers in the Philippines. They are some of the most purely Apostolic and Godly men and women I have ever met.
It is true the goverment is corrupt in that country and I can't speak for the Indepedants over there, I can speak from decades of experience that your charge that ethics are neither taught nor practiced in the Philippines, couldn't be farther from the truth.
I recommend everyone make a trip to the Philippines some day and see for themselves the high level of integrity those wonderful people practice.

[blueaugust]

Ron,
You reveal more about yourself than you realize with this post. You have issues and I pray you get them worked out seeing as you are married to a Filipina.
I was raised in the Philippines as a missionary kid then returned with my family many different times. In fact we are leaving in 1 1/2 weeks to attend the Philippine General Conference. The truth of the matter is, while I feel I am a dedicated christian, I am not even worthy to carry the Bible of many of those UPCI ministers in the Philippines. They are some of the most purely Apostolic and Godly men and women I have ever met.
It is true the goverment is corrupt in that country and I can't speak for the Indepedants over there, I can speak from decades of experience that your charge that ethics are neither taught nor practiced in the Philippines, couldn't be farther from the truth.
I recommend everyone make a trip to the Philippines some day and see for themselves the high level of integrity those wonderful people practice.

Somehow I feel that I know you bro missionsjd. If your parents are missionaries to the Luzon area, then what I feel may not be too far from the truth. Just to let you know, I have been a student of ACTS Bible School in Manila from 1990 to 1992 (the year I graduated).

By the way, it's good to hear you coming to the General Conference this year...

[MissionsJD]

Somehow I feel that I know you bro missionsjd. If your parents are missionaries to the Luzon area, then what I feel may not be too far from the truth. Just to let you know, I have been a student of ACTS Bible School in Manila from 1990 to 1992 (the year I graduated).

By the way, it's good to hear you coming to the General Conference this year...

It would be nice to meet you. We are looking forward to being there. I have appreciated your contribution to this thread.

[R.D. Foster]

Reports indicate that Bro. Steve Buxton, Bro. Johnny King, and Bro. Charles Harris are headed to the Philippines.

On Wednesday of this week, they are scheduled to meet with 50 Oneness Pastors in the Philippines that represent 30,000+ members (UPC?). These pastors are interested in the WPF and have expressed interest in being linked with it. According to Bro. Buxton, this would be "huge" for the WPF.

There are scores of U.S. pastors who have works in the Philipines. SB has been going there for years and was aligned with the UPC. He will probably continue what he has already started years ago. One U.S. pastor joined the UPCI after years of working in the Philipines. They told him to continue his independent work. He has and there have been no problems. I asked him if there was any conflict. His work of about a thousand in Manila never even hears about the UPC. There are simply too many millions.

[NW Pastor]

There are scores of U.S. pastors who have works in the Philipines. SB has been going there for years and was aligned with the UPC. He will probably continue what he has already started years ago. One U.S. pastor joined the UPCI after years of working in the Philipines. They told him to continue his independent work. He has and there have been no problems. I asked him if there was any conflict. His work of about a thousand in Manila never even hears about the UPC. There are simply too many millions.

SB started nothing. He built upon the foundation that was already laid in Bohol. Nothing wrong with that, but his work was all done under the auspices of the UPCI.

[R.D. Foster]

SB started nothing. He built upon the foundation that was already laid in Bohol. Nothing wrong with that, but his work was all done under the auspices of the UPCI.


My understanding is that he was independently working with these men while in the UPC. No one told me this. It was just what I thought.

If he was working with them from his own resources, I don't see a problem with him continuing.

[blueaugust]

There are scores of U.S. pastors who have works in the Philipines. SB has been going there for years and was aligned with the UPC. He will probably continue what he has already started years ago. One U.S. pastor joined the UPCI after years of working in the Philipines. They told him to continue his independent work. He has and there have been no problems. I asked him if there was any conflict. His work of about a thousand in Manila never even hears about the UPC. There are simply too many millions.

Although the Philippines has about 85 million population, it's land area is too little for everybody not to here about everybody. We have 8 National television stations and some more national radio stations. We also have a lot of newspapers and tabloids that's nationally syndicated.

All Trinitarian denominations do feel UPCI's presence in my country. Add to that the different groups of cults who do seek us and openly challenges our National Leaders for debates on national TV.

And because of behavorial and relational problems of a lot of the independent churches in here, it's really hard for the WPF to gather at least 30,000 people under their own banner. PAW has done this before and is not successful.

Add to that the very fact that a majority of these Independent groups in here are more liberal than you might think. A lot of them do wear pants (women), use make ups, don't believe in tongues as initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, etc. Their liberalism would make you think that the UPC Philippines is the ultra-conservative group in here...

Plus the fact that a lot of them do have TVs in their home, you will have a general idea as to what the Tulsa Group has to give up before convincing these guys to join them.

[blueaugust]

SB started nothing. He built upon the foundation that was already laid in Bohol. Nothing wrong with that, but his work was all done under the auspices of the UPCI.

This is completely true.

[R.D. Foster]

Although the Philippines has about 85 million population, it's land area is too little for everybody not to here about everybody. We have 8 National television stations and some more national radio stations. We also have a lot of newspapers and tabloids that's nationally syndicated.

All Trinitarian denominations do feel UPCI's presence in my country. Add to that the different groups of cults who do seek us and openly challenges our National Leaders for debates on national TV.

And because of behavorial and relational problems of a lot of the independent churches in here, it's really hard for the WPF to gather at least 30,000 people under their own banner. PAW has done this before and is not successful.

Add to that the very fact that a majority of these Independent groups in here are more liberal than you might think. A lot of them do wear pants (women), use make ups, don't believe in tongues as initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, etc. Their liberalism would make you think that the UPC Philippines is the ultra-conservative group in here...

Plus the fact that a lot of them do have TVs in their home, you will have a general idea as to what the Tulsa Group has to give up before convincing these guys to join them.

Very good points. Our most evangelized state in America is Louisiana. It probably has as many independent works as UPC works and all claim to be having revival. If you ever hear of a WPF work I can only hope that they will be ethical as I am sure you will be toward them.

[NW Pastor]

Although the Philippines has about 85 million population, it's land area is too little for everybody not to here about everybody. We have 8 National television stations and some more national radio stations. We also have a lot of newspapers and tabloids that's nationally syndicated.

All Trinitarian denominations do feel UPCI's presence in my country. Add to that the different groups of cults who do seek us and openly challenges our National Leaders for debates on national TV.

And because of behavorial and relational problems of a lot of the independent churches in here, it's really hard for the WPF to gather at least 30,000 people under their own banner. PAW has done this before and is not successful.

Add to that the very fact that a majority of these Independent groups in here are more liberal than you might think. A lot of them do wear pants (women), use make ups, don't believe in tongues as initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost, etc. Their liberalism would make you think that the UPC Philippines is the ultra-conservative group in here...

Plus the fact that a lot of them do have TVs in their home, you will have a general idea as to what the Tulsa Group has to give up before convincing these guys to join them.

This is completely true. The independents apostolics in the UPC Philippines are generally not the kind who would fit well with the Tulsa group. They would have major problems with many of the Articles of Faith. It will be interesting to see who they court and what they are willing to accept to have a "worldwide" missions program.

As far as SB is concerned, he should continue to work with any independents he as scared up, but should leave the UPC churches and pastors strictly alone. He was in that country as an invited guest of a national church. Wouldn't there be ethical problems if he then invited UPC churches or pastors to leave that organization for his own? I don't think he would do this.

There are millions of unsaved Filipinoes who need the gospel. The WPF can evangelize them, as the UPC is effectively doing.

[R.D. Foster]

This is completely true. The independents apostolics in the UPC Philippines are generally not the kind who would fit well with the Tulsa group. They would have major problems with many of the Articles of Faith. It will be interesting to see who they court and what they are willing to accept to have a "worldwide" missions program.

As far as SB is concerned, he should continue to work with any independents he as scared up, but should leave the UPC churches and pastors strictly alone. He was in that country as an invited guest of a national church. Wouldn't there be ethical problems if he then invited UPC churches or pastors to leave that organization for his own. I don't think he would do this.

There are millions of unsaved Filipinoes who need the gospel. The WPF can evangelize them, as the UPC is effectively doing.

Amen!!!

[blueaugust]

My understanding is that he was independently working with these men while in the UPC. No one told me this. It was just what I thought.

If he was working with them from his own resources, I don't see a problem with him continuing.

Yes there could be a problem as sooner or later, the people from Bohol will discern that what he represents now is something that is different from before. They still do have District Presbyters and Sectional Presbyters in there. And you'll be amazed as to how strong the clan ties and family ties are in here...

[R.D. Foster]

Yes there could be a problem as sooner or later, the people from Bohol will discern that what he represents now is something that is different from before. They still do have District Presbyters and Sectional Presbyters in there. And you'll be amazed as to how strong the clan ties and family ties are in here...

What has SB's involvement been to this point?

[blueaugust]

What has SB's involvement been to this point?

I am just assuming that SB's group is going for the UPC churches in Bohol as the flow of discussion in this thread has lead me to assume...

[Sister Alvear]

I do not know any UPCI Philippine brothers that I can think of so I am not taking up for the UPCI and neither do I know SB. Although my oldest son was with them and told me they are lovely people and have a good church so what I say is not against SB.

I speak from a missionary standpoint and point of view. I HAVE faced certain things in the last 40 years and my flesh wanted to cry out, my flesh wanted to show I was right but to do that I knew little innocent ones would be destroyed so I did nothing to hurt anyone...years passed and today most people know what I went though and respect me for protecting the innocent and the unborn.

Did I hurt? Yes, I did. Did people not understand my reaction? Yes my friends did for they wanted me to react, to stand up and tell my side and even though I might have benefitted it would not have been good for the people that I loved most...even though for years they did not understand...
I knew I was right and I suffered for being right!
Sometimes we might be right but we must think of the end results not gratifying the flesh proving we are right.
Time tells a lot of stories. Time proves to be our best friend...time does what we often cannot do..it reveals truth and the intents of people's hearts.

Whether American or national we MUST not be tempted to take advantage of other men's wars...it will only corrupt what we hope to build and that includes rightousness, holiness and godly living.

[pelathais]

Thanks Bro. pelathais. I haven't attended to that blog for a week now I think... We've been very busy preparing for the coming UPC Philippines General Conference on this third week of February. Bro. Mallory would be the Nightly Speaker. I wonder if his preachings would reflect on some of the past events with WPF... I would love to post in here anything that might come from him verbally...

Bro Mallory, along with Bro. Carl W. Adams, are the most loved UPCI missionaries here in the Philippines...
It would be interesting to hear if he says anything related to the WPF. So post away!

But more importantly - have a great Conference. I look forward to reading more reports about the great work of the Holy Spirit in the Philippines.

[NW Pastor]

It is so funny the amount of double talk about the WPF...their numbers are downplayed but they are able to go into foreign countrys with the big guns and forcibly take mission fields over...

But, don't mind that 90% of what any one here says about the WPF is second, third, and mostly fourth hand information. Carry on with the double talk.

There is nothing funny about sowing discord in a foreign field, where the nationals have been taught to trust and love American preachers. Mixed signals from America could hinder the influence of all American missionaries in that land.

I must say, it is abunantly clear that you have no idea of what you are talking about when it comes to missions.

[NW Pastor]

What has SB's involvement been to this point?

During and subsequent to the Dream Team 2001 crusades, he has been dynamic crusade leader and advocate for revival, primarily on the island of Bohol. He has gone back several times, I understand.

[pelathais]

It is so funny the amount of double talk about the WPF...their numbers are downplayed but they are able to go into foreign countrys with the big guns and forcibly take mission fields over...

But, don't mind that 90% of what any one here says about the WPF is second, third, and mostly fourth hand information. Carry on with the double talk.
You make it sound like you think it's a good thing that they can "go into foreign countrys with the big guns and forcibly take mission fields over." I would be ashamed to show myself to the brothers overseas if I was even tempted to think that I was there to "take over."

[MissionsJD]

What has SB's involvement been to this point?

On Steve Buxton’s first trip to Bohol, (the island where he has been ministering in the Philippines) he was introduced to the island’s UPC pastors. He preached in several of the island’s UPC churches and met many of the island’s UPC saints. He made many trips back to Bohol and did a lot of good.
The problem was he began to tell people that he went to Bohol and was the pioneer of the work. It seems that his memory failed him because he later forgot that the UPC had long ago established churches there.
He told people, and even was quoted in publications, that he went to Bohol and founded the work from nothing. This is absolutely false. While he was a blessing to an established church, he played the role of evangelist and encourager, but definitely not a pioneer. In other words, he is claiming the work as his, and it is quite frankly not.
If this is the best the WPF Foreign Missions Department can do, they don’t have a Foreign Missions Department at all. I wish them well because there are billions of souls who need to hear the gospel.
The danger for the WPF is that the individual members will undo the great good they have done through the years now as they promote the “preferred apostolic alternative”. No one is afraid that the WPF will be successful in carving out a chunk of the UPC Philippines; the concern is that they will cause confusion.
We don’t need anything to distract us from winning lost souls.

[NW Pastor]

On Steve Buxton’s first trip to Bohol, (the island where he has been ministering in the Philippines) he was introduced to the island’s UPC pastors. He preached in several of the island’s UPC churches and met many of the island’s UPC saints. He made many trips back to Bohol and did a lot of good.
The problem was he began to tell people that he went to Bohol and was the pioneer of the work. It seems that his memory failed him because he later forgot that the UPC had long ago established churches there.
He told people, and even was quoted in publications, that he went to Bohol and founded the work from nothing. This is absolutely false. While he was a blessing to an established church, he played the role of evangelist and encourager, but definitely not a pioneer. In other words, he is claiming the work as his, and it is quite frankly not.
If this is the best the WPF Foreign Missions Department can do, they don’t have a Foreign Missions Department at all. I wish them well because there are billions of souls who need to hear the gospel.
The danger for the WPF is that the individual members will undo the great good they have done through the years now as they promote the “preferred apostolic alternative”. No one is afraid that the WPF will be successful in carving out a chunk of the UPC Philippines; the concern is that they will cause confusion.
We don’t need anything to distract us from winning lost souls.

Excellent post, and true.

[Ron]

Ron,
You reveal more about yourself than you realize with this post. You have issues and I pray you get them worked out seeing as you are married to a Filipina.
I was raised in the Philippines as a missionary kid then returned with my family many different times. In fact we are leaving in 1 1/2 weeks to attend the Philippine General Conference. The truth of the matter is, while I feel I am a dedicated christian, I am not even worthy to carry the Bible of many of those UPCI ministers in the Philippines. They are some of the most purely Apostolic and Godly men and women I have ever met.
It is true the goverment is corrupt in that country and I can't speak for the Indepedants over there, I can speak from decades of experience that your charge that ethics are neither taught nor practiced in the Philippines, couldn't be farther from the truth.
I recommend everyone make a trip to the Philippines some day and see for themselves the high level of integrity those wonderful people practice.

I clarified the post.
From the majority of Ministers I have met from the Philippines, there was an obvious lack of ethics shown by 95% of them.

True, that doesn't represent the whole Philippine Church.

Again, there would be Ministers License taken away if we were to persue the matter.

Issues? Would you like to clarify this please?

I don't care who the person is--Ethics is Ethics.

[revrandy]

On Steve Buxton’s first trip to Bohol, (the island where he has been ministering in the Philippines) he was introduced to the island’s UPC pastors. He preached in several of the island’s UPC churches and met many of the island’s UPC saints. He made many trips back to Bohol and did a lot of good.
The problem was he began to tell people that he went to Bohol and was the pioneer of the work. It seems that his memory failed him because he later forgot that the UPC had long ago established churches there.
He told people, and even was quoted in publications, that he went to Bohol and founded the work from nothing. This is absolutely false. While he was a blessing to an established church, he played the role of evangelist and encourager, but definitely not a pioneer. In other words, he is claiming the work as his, and it is quite frankly not.
If this is the best the WPF Foreign Missions Department can do, they don’t have a Foreign Missions Department at all. I wish them well because there are billions of souls who need to hear the gospel.
The danger for the WPF is that the individual members will undo the great good they have done through the years now as they promote the “preferred apostolic alternative”. No one is afraid that the WPF will be successful in carving out a chunk of the UPC Philippines; the concern is that they will cause confusion.
We don’t need anything to distract us from winning lost souls.

I believe he his hand called on this by a Veteran Missionary....but nothing was done.... from what I've heard...

[blueaugust]

I clarified the post.
From the majority of Ministers I have met from the Philippines, there was an obvious lack of ethics shown by 95% of them.

True, that doesn't represent the whole Philippine Church.

Again, there would be Ministers License taken away if we were to persue the matter.

Issues? Would you like to clarify this please?

I don't care who the person is--Ethics is Ethics.

How about just telling us whether these ministers you interact with are UPCI or some independent group? It's really offensive to claim that 95% percent of Filipino ministers either disregard or just doesn't know ethics. That's too much generalization and too much of a claim Bro. Ron. I hope you understand my point of view...

[MissionsJD]

I clarified the post.
From the majority of Ministers I have met from the Philippines, there was an obvious lack of ethics shown by 95% of them.

True, that doesn't represent the whole Philippine Church.

Again, there would be Ministers License taken away if we were to persue the matter.

Issues? Would you like to clarify this please?

I don't care who the person is--Ethics is Ethics.

Huh? 95%? Now I KNOW there is no further need to respond to your posts. I do thank you for the opportunity to praise the Filipino pastors. If not for your rediculous posts I would not have had occassion to let all the others who read this hear how wonderful and ethical the Filipino UPC church is.

Issues? You are married to a Filipino and have the veiw point that 95% of her native people are unethical. Enough said.

[Monkeyman]

Huh? 95%? Now I KNOW there is no further need to respond to your posts. I do thank you for the opportunity to praise the Filipino pastors. If not for your rediculous posts I would not have had occassion to let all the others who read this hear how wonderful and ethical the Filipino UPC church is.

Issues? You are married to a Filipino and have the veiw point that 95% of her native people are unethical. Enough said.I don't have a dog in this fight but I believe he said 95% of ministers he met, not 95%
of her native people. Just get him back by saying 95% of canadians won't fight and are sissies, and that the CFL is for girls....lol! (this really makes em mad)

[Ron]

How about just telling us whether these ministers you interact with are UPCI or some independent group? It's really offensive to claim that 95% percent of Filipino ministers either disregard or just doesn't know ethics. That's too much generalization and too much of a claim Bro. Ron. I hope you understand my point of view...

Not independt--UPCI!

Read carefully. 95% of the Philippine Ministers who have come through here.

My wife even had one interaction with a Minister that left her disgusted.

Again, just a question.

Are Ethics taught & stressed, practiced.

BECAUSE IT IS OUR OBSERVATION THAT IT ISN'T!

[Ron]

Huh? 95%? Now I KNOW there is no further need to respond to your posts. I do thank you for the opportunity to praise the Filipino pastors. If not for your rediculous posts I would not have had occassion to let all the others who read this hear how wonderful and ethical the Filipino UPC church is.

Issues? You are married to a Filipino and have the veiw point that 95% of her native people are unethical. Enough said.


A lovely twist on words. Do you do that with everyone? LOL!

[NW Pastor]

Not independt--UPCI!

Read carefully. 95% of the Philippine Ministers who have come through here.

My wife even had one interaction with a Minister that left her disgusted.

Again, just a question.

Are Ethics taught & stressed, practiced.

BECAUSE IT IS OUR OBSERVATION THAT IT ISN'T!

The few Americans that travel abroad are often seen by natives as domineering and self-centeredly ethno-centric.


Would you appreciate being classifed as such because of the poor manners of a few? I would concur with JDMissions, and have you go there and experience the real church for an extended period, first hand. You will find some lacking in ethics to be sure. But there will be others that balance the scale dramatically.

Of course, I am completely satisfied at the level of ministerial ethics I have seen here in this country. I'm just wondering where the courses are taught? And are there any refreshers for those who have forgotten?

I think not!

[MissionsJD]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I believe he said 95% of ministers he met, not 95%
of her native people.

True. Thanks for the correction. That makes it even worse. If 95% of ministers are unethical, what about the general population?

The bottom line is that Filipino pastors are human, just like American pastors are. We all have failings, but come on? 95%?

I know these people and have been raised around them. I ate from the same plates as the current church leaders when they were bible school students and I was still a child. While some of them have disappointed us, they do not have any worse ethical problems than we do here in the USA.

I hope Ron is able to revisit his beliefs with regard to the Filipino leaders.

[Monkeyman]

Maybe they are just sending the un-ethical ones to British Columbia????

[Ron]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I believe he said 95% of ministers he met, not 95%
of her native people. Just get him back by saying 95% of canadians won't fight and are sissies, and that the CFL is for girls....lol! (this really makes em mad)

Them's fighin' words!!:toofunny

[Monkeyman]

Them's fighin' words!!:toofunny*sneaks out of thread*:toofunny

[Ron]

The few Americans that travel abroad are often seen by natives as domineering and self-centeredly ethno-centric.


Would you appreciate being classifed as such because of the poor manners of a few? I would concur with JDMissions, and have you go there and experience the real church for an extended period, first hand. You will find some lacking in ethics to be sure. But there will be others that balance the scale dramatically.

Of course, I am completely satisfied at the level of ministerial ethics I have seen here in this country. I'm just wondering where the courses are taught? And are there any refreshers for those who have forgotten?

I think not!

I would be insulted!!!

I am Canadian!!! You must be referring to that Monkeyman! He is American!!!:toofunny
We are generally known as being Kind!

[NW Pastor]

Them's fighin' words!!:toofunny

Where's the joke? The CFL is for girls, isn't it? Doesn't the acronym stand for Canadian Female League?

[Ron]

True. Thanks for the correction. That makes it even worse. If 95% of ministers are unethical, what about the general population?

The bottom line is that Filipino pastors are human, just like American pastors are. We all have failings, but come on? 95%?

I know these people and have been raised around them. I ate from the same plates as the current church leaders when they were bible school students and I was still a child. While some of them have disappointed us, they do not have any worse ethical problems than we do here in the USA.

I hope Ron is able to revisit his beliefs with regard to the Filipino leaders.

Yes they are human

Maybe the ones I met didn't adhere are listen to ethical teachings.

[Ron]

Where's the joke? The CFL is for girls, isn't it? Doesn't the acronym stand for Canadian Female League?

Canadian Football League!

[Ron]

Maybe they are just sending the un-ethical ones to British Columbia????


Maybe there is something to what thou sayest!

[Monkeyman]

I would be insulted!!!

I am Canadian!!! You must be referring to that Monkeyman! He is American!!!:toofunny
We are generally known as being Kind!Hellooooo, I am a Mexican-American Chicano Latino Hispanic, living in Canada....and anyone better think twice about typecasting me!!!!!! I'll 100% bust ya in your chops....:toofunny

[Ron]

Hellooooo, I am a Mexican-American Chicano Latino Hispanic....and anyone better think twice about typecasting me!!!!!! I'll 100% bust ya in your chops....:toofunny

Hey, did I tell you that my mom's mom came from Spain?

[blueaugust]

Not independt--UPCI!

Read carefully. 95% of the Philippine Ministers who have come through here.

My wife even had one interaction with a Minister that left her disgusted.

Again, just a question.

Are Ethics taught & stressed, practiced.

BECAUSE IT IS OUR OBSERVATION THAT IT ISN'T!

My apologies Bro. Ron for missing to understand your statement. I don't know if I missed it, but you never really said that it's the Filipino Ministers who have come to your country that your referring to.

I wonder how they get there. I hope it was formally coordinated with the National Office of the UPC Philippines. Otherwise, it's not really good just to trust anybody who comes by and just let those guys minister to my church. Even if someone from my church knows them.

[Monkeyman]

Hey, did I tell you that my mom's mom came from Spain?So what, I'm messican!!!

Q: When does a Mexican become a Spaniard?
A: When he starts dating your daughter!!!!!!!!...LOL

*Thread Hijack lifted*

[MissionsJD]

How about something possitive for a change?

The Philippine leaders have begun plans to conduct a 100 city crusade. This will be conducted simultaneously all across the country. Each city that has been targeted in the nation will be invaded by teams from all over the world, and work together with the local saints. Litterally thousands from all over will be joining for this event.

This is a very exciting event and will be held sometime in 2010. You will be hearing more about this in the future.

The Philippines is the center of apostolic harvest in the end time.

[NW Pastor]

My apologies Bro. Ron for missing to understand your statement. I don't know if I missed it, but you never really said that it's the Filipino Ministers who have come to your country that your referring to.

I wonder how they get there. I hope it was formally coordinated with the National Office of the UPC Philippines. Otherwise, it's not really good just to trust anybody who comes by and just let those guys minister to my church. Even if someone from my church knows them.


Great point! Anyone can come from another country and claim all sorts of things, preach to your people, exercise influence over your leaders and be seen as a valid representative of the native church.

If we don't check out their pedigree, we could be burned!

That reminds me. I wonder if the Filipino brethren will check on the WPF credientials before they fellowship?

[Ron]

So what, I'm messican!!!

Q: When does a Mexican become a Spaniard?
A: When he starts dating your daughter!!!!!!!!...LOL

*Thread Hijack lifted*

:toofunny

[NW Pastor]

Canadian Football League!

So you say!

[Cindy]

How about something possitive for a change?

The Philippine leaders have begun plans to conduct a 100 city crusade. This will be conducted simultaneously all across the country. Each city that has been targeted in the nation will be invaded by teams from all over the world, and work together with the local saints. Litterally thousands from all over will be joining for this event.

This is a very exciting event and will be held sometime in 2010. You will be hearing more about this in the future.

The Philippines is the center of apostolic harvest in the end time.

Praise the Lord! And we will rejoice with the angels for souls born into the Kingdom.

[pelathais]

I would be insulted!!!

I am Canadian!!! You must be referring to that Monkeyman! He is American!!!:toofunny
We are generally known as being Kind!
As a kid I played soccer and was involved in tournaments and exchange programs in Canada. I remember standing at an elementary school in Vancouver and watching as the kids I was about to go and spend a weekend with stopped to throw rocks at the American flag that was set up next to the Canadian flag in a symbolic "brotherhood" fashion. When their parents came out they kids threw the last couple of rocks that they had and we all climbed into the station wagon together.

Among us kids, the "Frogs" were considered cool for some reason. Even that far out west there were pockets of French. One stay with a French family was memorable. Some of the nicest people I had ever been around. Yet when I visited Quebec for the first time it was... uncomfortable when my French proved to be deficient in a McDonalds. By then of course I had learned that you don't call them "Frogs."

[Ron]

As a kid I played soccer and was involved in tournaments and exchange programs in Canada. I remember standing at an elementary school in Vancouver and watching as the kids I was about to go and spend a weekend with stopped to throw rocks at the American flag that was set up next to the Canadian flag in a symbolic "brotherhood" fashion. When their parents came out they kids threw the last couple of rocks that they had and we all climbed into the station wagon together.

Those kids who threw rocks at an American flag were reprimanded I hope?

Which school in Vancouver was it?

[pelathais]

Those kids who threw rocks at an American flag were reprimanded I hope?

Which school in Vancouver was it?
Nope. I was a kind of blonde brick elementary school with a gravel parking lot. I don't remember the school's name. This was about 1968 or 1969. I figured the kids were acting out in imitation of what they saw in the news. But it was disillusioning to think that these were my "mates" for a week.

[Ron]

Nope. I was a kind of blonde brick elementary school with a gravel parking lot. I don't remember the school's name. This was about 1968 or 1969. I figured the kids were acting out in imitation of what they saw in the news. But it was disillusioning to think that these were my "mates" for a week.

You just described most of the Schools in Vancouver!
69-70 I and my buddies would chant:

"Hey, hey, get out of my way. We just got back from the USA!"

We never desecrated any flag, even our own!

A different era I guess!

[htwnprchr]

I appreciate the posts of MissionsJD. I also was an MK in the Phillippines for about a decade and still pattern a lot of my personal ministry on things that I learned from local pastors while I was there. Some of the most spiritual and ETHICAL men I have ever met were national pastors. I personally have been involved in the Bible Schools and crusades in the Phillippines and I have gone through some of the curriculum that is taught at the Bible Schools and I know that ethics are taught. My father was president of two of the Bible Schools in years gone by and I know that he taught ethics because I know what he taught me at home.

I am excited about the revival going on in the PI and I am really excited to hear that they are moving forward with plans to start sending out their own missionaries. I remember when they first started making plans to do this over a decade ago. I am glad to hear that they are close to implementing those plans that were set in motion before the work was ever even nationalized.

Anyways, this is just my $.02

[R.D. Foster]

Nope. I was a kind of blonde brick elementary school with a gravel parking lot. I don't remember the school's name. This was about 1968 or 1969. [QUOTE]I figured the kids were acting out in imitation of what they saw in the news. QUOTE]

That cursed TV promoted violence once again.

[Sister Alvear]

If the wwf is NOT starting churches and organizations THEY SHOULD work though leadership that is on the field whether it be American or National but not go around giving preachers money...I can tell you right now it WILL DIVIDE...if division is what they want that is the way they will work, if it is furthering the cause of CHRIST no matter who gets the glory they will work through leadership.

[Jekyll]

There is nothing funny about sowing discord in a foreign field, where the nationals have been taught to trust and love American preachers. Mixed signals from America could hinder the influence of all American missionaries in that land.

I must say, it is abunantly clear that you have no idea of what you are talking about when it comes to missions.

You make it sound like you think it's a good thing that they can "go into foreign countrys with the big guns and forcibly take mission fields over." I would be ashamed to show myself to the brothers overseas if I was even tempted to think that I was there to "take over."
I am sure to be taking notes from AFF about what missions means.

Pel, do you have a hobby making bread ties? You sure know how to twist words around. Not quite as good as alice but on the right track.

[Sister Alvear]

We should pray for our brothers and sisters in that distant land...missionary work is hard enough without confusion from the homefront..

[pelathais]

I am sure to be taking notes from AFF about what missions means.

Pel, do you have a hobby making bread ties? You sure know how to twist words around. Not quite as good as alice but on the right track.

hmmm... you said:

It is so funny the amount of double talk about the WPF...their numbers are downplayed but they are able to go into foreign countrys with the big guns and forcibly take mission fields over...

But, don't mind that 90% of what any one here says about the WPF is second, third, and mostly fourth hand information. Carry on with the double talk.
... to which I said:

You make it sound like you think it's a good thing that they can "go into foreign countrys with the big guns and forcibly take mission fields over." I would be ashamed to show myself to the brothers overseas if I was even tempted to think that I was there to "take over."
I responded to your hyperbole ironically - no "twisting" at all.

Do you really feel that the reports of the WwPF work in the Philippines is "double talk?" That's what some folks said when it was "rumored" that they were starting a new org. Then the new org just sort of "pops up out of no where."

Why do you support these guys? I figured you to be ornerier than that. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[NW Pastor]

[QUOTE=Jekyll;388388]I am sure to be taking notes from AFF about what missions means. [QUOTE]

Apparently. I have learned that ignorance and arrogance often accompany one another.

[Jekyll]

hmmm... you said:


... to which I said:


I responded to your hyperbole ironically - no "twisting" at all.

Do you really feel that the reports of the WwPF work in the Philippines is "double talk?" That's what some folks said when it was "rumored" that they were starting a new org. Then the new org just sort of "pops up out of no where."

Why do you support these guys? I figured you to be ornerier than that. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Oh, Pel, wake up. I never said it was good that anyone goes into missions fields and takes anything over. This is an accusation of WPF by the anti-WPF. Read my post more clearly. I was contrasting how WPF has only a few members (as stated by some here) but yet they have enough power to rip missions fields away from the UPC. Nice try, though.

I would like to know, what is wrong with someone starting a new organization? By the way, did anyone in leadership ever deny that this was taking place?

NW, if you would like to PM me your real name, a phone number, or some way of legitimate correspondence, I would gladly give you a chance to educate me in missions work. Do you really think a forum is a place to be learning the truth about ANYTHING??? If so, this casts doubt about your ability to separate fact from sensationalism.

[NW Pastor]

Oh, Pel, wake up. I never said it was good that anyone goes into missions fields and takes anything over. This is an accusation of WPF by the anti-WPF. Read my post more clearly. I was contrasting how WPF has only a few members (as stated by some here) but yet they have enough power to rip missions fields away from the UPC. Nice try, though.

I would like to know, what is wrong with someone starting a new organization? By the way, did anyone in leadership ever deny that this was taking place?

NW, if you would like to PM me your real name, a phone number, or some way of legitimate correspondence, I would gladly give you a chance to educate me in missions work. Do you really think a forum is a place to be learning the truth about ANYTHING??? If so, this casts doubt about your ability to separate fact from sensationalism.


It's true, this forum produces much fluff and nonsense. Can I interpret your post to assert that you have not been a deseminator of the truth in past postings? Or is it just OTHERS that cannot be telling the truth. A curious thing to say, regardless.

I am sure you are a good Christian and a fine soul. We would most likely agree on many theological positions. Though we differ on the methodolgy of the WPF, I wish you well.

[NLYP]

If the wwf is NOT starting churches and organizations THEY SHOULD work though leadership that is on the field whether it be American or National but not go around giving preachers money...I can tell you right now it WILL DIVIDE...if division is what they want that is the way they will work, if it is furthering the cause of CHRIST no matter who gets the glory they will work through leadership.

WWF!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLL
Sis...love your heart....coming from you...THAT was priceless....

you mean wpf....

wwf is the world wrestling federation....

Come to think of it.....you may be on to something.:TulsaNO:

[Apprehended]

My question is this:

Why would WPF be in talks with Philippines UPC? What on earth FOR?

Does WPF consider the UPC in the Philippines to be LOST? If they do, are they going to be rebaptizing them, if so, in WHOSE name?

Or could the purpose of the talks with the Philippines UPC be, as I suspect it to be, the unscrouplous intent to siphon off some of the constiuents of the UPC? Are they really THAT unethical and low class?

But, if they honestly believe that those Philippines UPC constiuents are lost and are on their way to hell, then I understand that. I doubt that motive. I suspect an unholy, unscrouplous, unethical motive.

Am I mistaken?

[pelathais]

Oh, Pel, wake up. I never said it was good that anyone goes into missions fields and takes anything over. This is an accusation of WPF by the anti-WPF. Read my post more clearly. I was contrasting how WPF has only a few members (as stated by some here) but yet they have enough power to rip missions fields away from the UPC. Nice try, though.
Your "contrasting" is what I called "hyperbole." I understood you clearly. You just fail to persude me.


I would like to know, what is wrong with someone starting a new organization? By the way, did anyone in leadership ever deny that this was taking place?
About the closest thing to that that I heard was Steadfast's telling of a conversation with a "coordinator" and a UPC official last fall. He quoted the WwPF coordinator as saying things that led Steadfast to conclude that the was no new organization in the works.

Now, it could be that Steady just "heard what he wanted to hear," or that he misunderstood something, or missed a part of the conversation, or any number of well intentioned things could have been miscommunicated. But we were told on this forum that there was no new org in the making, at least at that point in time.

[Hoovie]

WWF!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLL
Sis...love your heart....coming from you...THAT was priceless....

you mean wpf....

wwf is the world wrestling federation....

Come to think of it.....you may be on to something.:TulsaNO:

:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

[Sunni]

Am I mistaken?


Yes.




But please....continue speculating the theories and motives you have created from false information...

[NW Pastor]

Yes.




But please....continue speculating the theories and motives you have created from false information...

Which information was false? WPF ministers going to the Philippines? They are working among established UPCI churches? They are not or soon will not be a part of the UPCI?

If the WPF wants to evangelize the world, I applaud them vigorously. But if they want a "quick" established missions program for showcase purposes, one built by others under the auspices of the UPCI its missionaries and nationals, then that is a mistake.

By the way, if you want to talk about false information, read the Apostolic World Report interview of SB in the last issue.

[blueaugust]

@ NW Pastor - Care to share as to where we could find that report sir? That seems interesting...

[Apprehended]

Yes.




But please....continue speculating the theories and motives you have created from false information...

It was an invitation for you to set the record straight. Get it?

[NW Pastor]

@ NW Pastor - Care to share as to where we could find that report sir? That seems interesting...

The report is in the last issue of the Apostolic World Report, published by Pentecom, a group of UPCI (some now former UPCI) ministers. I don't know where you could obtain a copy, though they send them to thousands of preachers. I no longer have mine.

If you ask around you may find someone on this forum willing to scan you a copy.

[Straightline]

Which information was false? WPF ministers going to the Philippines? They are working among established UPCI churches? They are not or soon will not be a part of the UPCI?

If the WPF wants to evangelize the world, I applaud them vigorously. But if they want a "quick" established missions program for showcase purposes, one built by others under the auspices of the UPCI its missionaries and nationals, then that is a mistake.

By the way, if you want to talk about false information, read the Apostolic World Report interview of SB in the last issue.

Has it been established that SB & Co is in fact meeting with UPCI pastors?? The initial post on this thread put that as a question - Is it now a fact? Did I miss the verifying post? Thanks!

Logical conclusions form by
keeping the facts in a
Straightline

[Nahum]

Oh, Pel, wake up. I never said it was good that anyone goes into missions fields and takes anything over. This is an accusation of WPF by the anti-WPF. Read my post more clearly. I was contrasting how WPF has only a few members (as stated by some here) but yet they have enough power to rip missions fields away from the UPC. Nice try, though.

I would like to know, what is wrong with someone starting a new organization? By the way, did anyone in leadership ever deny that this was taking place?

NW, if you would like to PM me your real name, a phone number, or some way of legitimate correspondence, I would gladly give you a chance to educate me in missions work. Do you really think a forum is a place to be learning the truth about ANYTHING??? If so, this casts doubt about your ability to separate fact from sensationalism.

Jekyll,

Do you really want to go there on this one?

Yes, everyone denied it was taking place.

By the way, your acerbic online personality is getting very old, very fast.

If you disagree - just say so.

Don't make it personal.

Besides, why do you visit here if you think it's so horrible?

[NW Pastor]

Has it been established that SB & Co is in fact meeting with UPCI pastors?? The initial post on this thread put that as a question - Is it now a fact? Did I miss the verifying post? Thanks!

Logical conclusions form by
keeping the facts in a
Straightline

Who else? SB and Co. have only worked with the UPCI pastors in the past and initially attained influence through UPCI invitations and programs. The assumption is relatively easy.

It is perfectly natural for these men to have a continued desire to work with and have influence over people they ministered to in the past. However, when they chose to leave the UPCI, one consequence of that decision is a loss of both influence and fellowship. Especially on a foreign field, where mixed signals from abroad, however small, can cause great confusion.

These men should continue working in a revival area, such as the P.I. There are multitudes that are caught in dead treditions and in need of the power of the HG. I can only pray that a concerted rather competative effort result from WPF endevors.

But I fear the worst in this case.

[stmatthew]

Who else? SB and Co. have only worked with the UPCI pastors in the past and initially attained influence through UPCI invitations and programs. The assumption is relatively easy.

It is perfectly natural for these men to have a continued desire to work with and have influence over people they ministered to in the past. However, when they chose to leave the UPCI, one consequence of that decision is a loss of both influence and fellowship. Especially on a foreign field, where mixed signals from abroad, however small, can cause great confusion.

These men should continue working in a revival area, such as the P.I. There are multitudes that are caught in dead treditions and in need of the power of the HG. I can only pray that a concerted rather competative effort result from WPF endevors.

But I fear the worst in this case.


So you come here and put out information in an attempt to destroy these mens character, and it is only an ASSUMPTION?? And I thought Satan was the accuser of the brethren. :thumbsdown

[Straightline]

Who else? SB and Co. have only worked with the UPCI pastors in the past and initially attained influence through UPCI invitations and programs. The assumption is relatively easy.

It is perfectly natural for these men to have a continued desire to work with and have influence over people they ministered to in the past. However, when they chose to leave the UPCI, one consequence of that decision is a loss of both influence and fellowship. Especially on a foreign field, where mixed signals from abroad, however small, can cause great confusion.

These men should continue working in a revival area, such as the P.I. There are multitudes that are caught in dead treditions and in need of the power of the HG. I can only pray that a concerted rather competative effort result from WPF endevors.

But I fear the worst in this case.

Assumptions are always easy - Though your assumptions in this case are likely. I was just wondering if they were proven to be true!
Many assumptions on this forum fail over time, but are never corrected.....


Why draw biased conclusions
when you can draw a
Straightline

[NW Pastor]

Assumptions are always easy - Though your assumptions in this case are likely. I was just wondering if they were proven to be true!
Many assumptions on this forum fail over time, but are never corrected.....


Why draw biased conclusions
when you can draw a
Straightline

This is true. Just like newspapers, when they make a mistake we can never find where they correct it!

Normally, I do not like to make assumptions unless I am quite sure of the perameters of the situation. However, if my assumptions are incorrect in this case, I will apologize.

[bishoph]

The report is in the last issue of the Apostolic World Report, published by Pentecom, a group of UPCI (some now former UPCI) ministers. I don't know where you could obtain a copy, though they send them to thousands of preachers. I no longer have mine.

If you ask around you may find someone on this forum willing to scan you a copy.

This is true. Just like newspapers, when they make a mistake we can never find where they correct it!

Normally, I do not like to make assumptions unless I am quite sure of the perameters of the situation. However, if my assumptions are incorrect in this case, I will apologize.

It is interesting that you mention newspapers making mistakes and seldom correcting them........the article (which I do not have a copy of at this time) you have quoted as your source for this information about SB was printed in a magazine, which has admitted (check with them for yourselves) that the writer of the article misquoted SB, and that it was not edited to show the corrected statements. However, since it is an "Apostolic" publication I guess there is no room for error.:)

[NW Pastor]

It is interesting that you mention newspapers making mistakes and seldom correcting them........the article (which I do not have a copy of at this time) you have quoted as your source for this information about SB was printed in a magazine, which has admitted (check with them for yourselves) that the writer of the article misquoted SB, and that it was not edited to show the corrected statements. However, since it is an "Apostolic" publication I guess there is no room for error.:)

SB says he was misquoted, whatever that means. Maybe he mispoke himeself. If that is the case, there were many times where he was misquoted throughout the article. There were not just untrue or incorrect statements. The article itself was filled with them. It is hard to see this as a simple misquoting. If I were him I would be sure to see the record set straight in a prominent way in the next issue of the AWR.

The article stated that SB went to Bahol and began a work where there were no churches, just a few constituents, and now there are forty churches as a result of his efforts (Wrong; There were many churches and constituents already there. He met with island pastors prior to his crusade. Where do you think the people came from?) Since we are in our "check the facts" mode, you should call the officials in the area to confirm.

He planned the crusade after meeting a couple that was waiting for him. (The crusade was a part of the DREAM TEAM crusades which were planned months in advance. The venue and hotels had already been scouted out and selected by someone else previously).

The crusade was represented as his effort solely. There are no other names mentioned or alluded to in the article. (SB was the captain of a DT team who participated in the funding and execution of the crusade in question).

The crusade was a great success. This is true. It was. I understand SB has had others that were successful also.

There are others, but my memory will not give me more at this time. I have no desire to place anyone's reputation in doubt, but if this is a missions leader for the WPF, it would behoove them to set the record straight in a more convincing manner than just, "he was misquoted."

BTW, I wonder who misquoted him? Are the producers of the AWR so inept they would misquote almost the whole article? Mabey we should ask the silent saint donating their time, who is accused of this horrible mistake, what they think?

[Thumper]

Has it been established that SB & Co is in fact meeting with UPCI pastors?? The initial post on this thread put that as a question - Is it now a fact? Did I miss the verifying post? Thanks!

Logical conclusions form by
keeping the facts in a
Straightline

Quit asking uncomfortable questions. :girlytantrum

[Weary Pilgrim]

Assumptions are always easy - Though your assumptions in this case are likely. I was just wondering if they were proven to be true!
Many assumptions on this forum fail over time, but are never corrected.....


Why draw biased conclusions
when you can draw a
Straightline


Many assumptions have failed on this forum and other forums.

Now,let's talk about the ones that were denied but ended up being true.

For instance,when it was reported months ago that an organization was being formed.it was vigorously denied.

I have yet to see this corrected have you?

[NW Pastor]

Quit asking uncomfortable questions. :girlytantrum

Hey Thumper. Nice to hear from you.

I thought uncomfortable questions were to be avoided? Such as;

1. Are these guys, who claim a only a fellowship, really forming an organization?

2. Can you really be a part of two organizations at once?

3. How many men actually left the UPCI for the WPF?

These are all questions that are said to lead to gossip, according to some. If I might wax simplistic, if we don't ask the questions, we can't get the answers.

[blueaugust]

Hey Thumper. Nice to hear from you.

I thought uncomfortable questions were to be avoided? Such as;

1. Are these guys, who claim a only a fellowship, really forming an organization?

2. Can you really be a part of two organizations at once?

3. How many men actually left the UPCI for the WPF?

These are all questions that are said to lead to gossip, according to some. If I might wax simplistic, if we don't ask the questions, we can't get the answers.

Agree :tvhappy

[stmatthew]

Hey Thumper. Nice to hear from you.

I thought uncomfortable questions were to be avoided? Such as;

1. Are these guys, who claim a only a fellowship, really forming an organization?

2. Can you really be a part of two organizations at once?

3. How many men actually left the UPCI for the WPF?

These are all questions that are said to lead to gossip, according to some. If I might wax simplistic, if we don't ask the questions, we can't get the answers.

These questions do not lead to gossip. But I believe they have already been answered, and many refused the answers.

[CC1]

Hey Thumper. Nice to hear from you.

I thought uncomfortable questions were to be avoided? Such as;

1. Are these guys, who claim a only a fellowship, really forming an organization?

2. Can you really be a part of two organizations at once?

3. How many men actually left the UPCI for the WPF?

These are all questions that are said to lead to gossip, according to some. If I might wax simplistic, if we don't ask the questions, we can't get the answers.


Yes
No
72-1000
:happydance:happydance

[stmatthew]

Yes
No
72-1000
:happydance:happydance

CC1,

You is wrong. Since the WPF is NOT licensing anyone, and only giving fellowship cards, they are within the guidelines of the UPCI for being a FELLOWSHIP. Thus the UPCI would have to go against their current rules to discharge anyone that is a member of both. To be a member of the WPF is no different than being a member of the AWCF, the ICOF, or the NCO.

[NW Pastor]

These questions do not lead to gossip. But I believe they have already been answered, and many refused the answers.

That's because the answers given have been all over the map. Even ignorant forum types like us know that two contradictory "facts" cannot both be true.

[Thumper]

Hey Thumper. Nice to hear from you.

I thought uncomfortable questions were to be avoided? Such as;

1. Are these guys, who claim a only a fellowship, really forming an organization?

2. Can you really be a part of two organizations at once?

3. How many men actually left the UPCI for the WPF?

These are all questions that are said to lead to gossip, according to some. If I might wax simplistic, if we don't ask the questions, we can't get the answers.

Nice to hear from you also.


Not being a WPF member or even an apologist for them I'm really not qualified to answer. But since that has never stopped anyone around here from spouting off just about any thought that ever entered their vacuous head. I'll join in the fray.

1. I'll take Booker, Goddair et al at their word until proven differently. Do you know something the general public hasn't been made aware of.

2. Absolutely, the UPCi has set a pressident by allowing membership in all kinds of different "fellowships". The AWCF being just one of many. The WPF does not at this time issue license/offer ordination so they are really no different than what others have been doing for years. Now the UPC doesn't like this group because they have billed themselves as an alternative to the UPC and are conservative but that doesn't change the reality of it just the response to it.

3. Who cares how many joined/are going to join. What does that have to do with the discussion about the PI. Now if this was a sanctioned UPCi group creating some subsiduary of Hazelwood we would have heard by now that almost 5000 attended, 15000 joined, 30000 are thinking about joining, 50000 got the Holy ghost including 43 house pets. This information being confirmed by counting the number of thumbs, fingers, toes and paws that were seen exiting the building.

:)

It's true that if you don't ask these questions you won't get answers but it might behoove you to ask the questions of someone else who actually might know the answers as opposed to just repeatedly asking them of people who don't have a clue. Last time I checked Larry Booker's phone number was still in the directory and I doubt that it was suddenly changed after he went to Tulsa. Call him up, I'm sure he would love to hear from you.

:)

[Felicity]

50000 got the Holy ghost including 43 house pets. :toofunny

[Straightline]

Now if this was a sanctioned UPCi group creating some subsiduary of Hazelwood we would have heard by now that almost 5000 attended, 15000 joined, 30000 are thinking about joining, 50000 got the Holy ghost including 43 house pets. This information being confirmed by counting the number of thumbs, fingers, toes and paws that were seen exiting the building.
:)

No doubt the report would also include that several (5-10,000) Trinny preachers ("brothers") were "looking our way"

Keep it up, my friend! No need to be an apologist for the WPF! Just apply common sense!


The Plumbline is a
Straightline

[Straightline]

CC1,

You is wrong. Since the WPF is NOT licensing anyone, and only giving fellowship cards, they are within the guidelines of the UPCI for being a FELLOWSHIP. Thus the UPCI would have to go against their current rules to discharge anyone that is a member of both. To be a member of the WPF is no different than being a member of the AWCF, the ICOF, or the NCO.

Or the NRA. :)

Matt: I was at Tulsa, and agree with your reporting. If more of these posters had went, they would have had a clear picture (the same picture), also.
THIS is why I went: Not to join, but to see it for myself, and draw my own conclusions.

Has anyone heard the results of the PI trip and can post the facts?? Or is speculation what we do (enjoy) best???

Even the Police officer will pronounce
you are in your right mind
when you walk that
Straightline

[bishoph]

Has anyone heard the results of the PI trip and can post the facts?? Or is speculation what we do (enjoy) best???

Even the Police officer will pronounce
you are in your right mind
when you walk that
Straightline
[/COLOR]

We had a great time! I spent the first couple of days in meetings with a small fraction of the independent pastors I have worked with for 11+ years. We had some incredible sessions where the Holy Ghost ministered to the pastors/ministers. In addition we had powerful church services, where God showed himself strong.

Then We traveled to Bohol where I met some incredible pastors and saints of God. Again we had the opportunity to encourage the people of God through fellowship/preaching/ministering and then we worked on plans for upcoming crusades.

Concerning the WPF's involvement, I will limit my comments, as I do not feel that most on this forum will believe the truth because of their bias rightfully/wrongfully placed. That said I have been the Bishop of some 350+ churches in the Philippines for a number of years, and I did present to some of them the WPF model of finding and facilitating, as a possible vehicle for facilitating fellowship, revival, and outreach in the future. (Remember there is no WPF Philippines, Mexico, Africa, etc at this time, and it remains to be seen if such will ever exist per the WPF's structure.) Some of those pastors could possibly benefit from a fellowship such as WPF, while many may not. So as their Bishop I presented something to them for their consideration, and will continue to love them and lead them regardless.

I can also state for the record that the WPF was not discussed nor mentioned when we were in services with UPCI pastors and churches (In Bohol) as that was not our purpose for being there. I know that since I am not God, some will not believe it, however, it remains the truth.

This is the response I placed on my "Going to the Philippines" thread.

[pelathais]

CC1,

You is wrong. Since the WPF is NOT licensing anyone, and only giving fellowship cards, they are within the guidelines of the UPCI for being a FELLOWSHIP. Thus the UPCI would have to go against their current rules to discharge anyone that is a member of both. To be a member of the WPF is no different than being a member of the AWCF, the ICOF, or the NCO.
Not necessarily. The WwPF was organized in a manner inconsistent with the UPCI manual. This may be seen as a mark against the WwPF.

However, the way in which the UPCI responds is the real measure of any substantial differences between the competing orgs, and so far Hazelwood has done zilch. That fact alone would seem to indicate

1. That either Hazelwood doesn't really have concerns about the WwPF; or

2. That Hazelwood has already decided to let which ever brothers who have already chosen to do so, to part in peace; or

3. That Hazelwood is incapable of doing anything about it.

Either way, incapable or unwilling - so far the UPCI has done nada. That's the real story, IMHO.

[pelathais]

Nice to hear from you also.

...

:)

It's true that if you don't ask these questions you won't get answers but it might behoove you to ask the questions of someone else who actually might know the answers as opposed to just repeatedly asking them of people who don't have a clue. Last time I checked Larry Booker's phone number was still in the directory and I doubt that it was suddenly changed after he went to Tulsa. Call him up, I'm sure he would love to hear from you.

:)
You might want to get an updated directory - he's gone. Though I'm sure that he would love to hear from everyone on the Internet; just not all at once.

[Rev]

You might want to get an updated directory - he's gone. Though I'm sure that he would love to hear from everyone on the Internet; just not all at once.

:toofunny

[embonpoint]

You might want to get an updated directory - he's gone. Though I'm sure that he would love to hear from everyone on the Internet; just not all at once.

Thus proving that allegations made here on AFF were false.

How many times did we hear that these men were forming the WPF while holding UPCI credentials?

Obviously if LB is not in the directory, he either sent in his resignation or let his dues lapse which would have been Oct. 1 for the last quarter.

Can't wait to see all the apologies soon to be posted.

[Jekyll]

Jekyll,

Do you really want to go there on this one?

Yes, everyone denied it was taking place.

By the way, your acerbic online personality is getting very old, very fast.

If you disagree - just say so.

Don't make it personal.

Besides, why do you visit here if you think it's so horrible?
I don't think it's been answered, and, btw, I was responding to another post, not bringing it up anew.

Not everyone denied it was taking place.

I don't see how anything was personal. Let me know what you had in mind so I can disagree or do whatever it is you would like me to do.

[MissionsJD]

Reporting live from the Philippines.
Steve Buxton, Johnny King and C. Harris have been active in the Philippines and are now gone. Just one week before the General Conference.
Brother Buxton contacted the Vice President of the UPC in the Philippines before coming and the leader he spoke to said, “We are very troubled by what we have been hearing. Before you go anywhere in the Philippines we are asking you to come to Headquarters and speak to our General Superintendant before you go anywhere else.”
This request was not headed as the three WPF members had at least one meeting in Manila. It was reported that the ministers in these meetings were 30 percent current UPC members, 30 percent ex-UPC and 40 percent independent. It was not immediately known how many, if any, joined the WPF.
After these meetings, Vice President Art Martinez, Metro Manila District Superintendant Celadonio Ompad, met with Johnny King and Steve Buxton. In this meeting the national leaders voiced their very strong criticism of both Johnny King and Steve Buxton in this current endeavor.
Brother King tried to assure them that he was NOT leaving the UPC and that the WPF was NOT an organization. He tried to explain that he was a General Board Member and did not want to hurt the work in the Philippines. The national leaders told them that their current involvement in the Philippines was only a source of confusion. They asked them what was the purpose of this visit and the answers were not satisfactory. They expressed their concern that Brother King’s considerable good will that has been built up over several years of involvement here would be damaged.
There were some other private things mentioned and will not be included here.
Then the discussion turned to Steve Buxton. They voiced their strong displeasure about the Pentecom article in which Steve Buxton erroneously reported his missionary efforts in Bohol. They said that the Philippine members were very displeased by that article. Steve Buxton replied, “Who gave them the article?” They replied, “That does not matter, what matters is that the article is totally false.” Buxton blamed it on the interviewer. He said that the “interviewer got the whole story wrong.” The national leaders then said, “If that is the case then you need to write a new article and set the record straight.”
There will be plenty more to report later as more information is confirmed from the National Leaders.

[TrueNorth]

Anybody got the Pentecom article and able to post it?

[embonpoint]

Reporting live from the Philippines.
Steve Buxton, Johnny King and C. Harris have been active in the Philippines and are now gone. Just one week before the General Conference.
Brother Buxton contacted the Vice President of the UPC in the Philippines before coming
After these meetings, Vice President Art Martinez, Metro Manila District Superintendant Celadonio Ompad, met with Johnny King and Steve Buxton.

Where is the stealth in this???

Must be nice to speak for "most logical people".

This request was not headed as the three WPF members had at least one meeting in Manila. It was reported that the ministers in these meetings were 30 percent current UPC members, 30 percent ex-UPC and 40 percent independent. It was not immediately known how many, if any, joined the WPF.

So at least 70% of the pastors they met are not UPCI. Apparently 40% have never been associated with the UPC.

I wonder if any of the 30% who were UPC originally were independent or from other denominations before becoming UPC and if anyone contacted their former associates before talking to them about the UPC.

Just trying to be logical and equitable.

[MissionsJD]

Where is the stealth in this???

Must be nice to speak for "most logical people".



So at least 70% of the pastors they met are not UPCI. Apparently 40% have never been associated with the UPC.

I wonder if any of the 30% who were UPC originally were independent or from other denominations before becoming UPC and if anyone contacted their former associates before talking to them about the UPC.

Just trying to be logical and equitable.

I am not sure where the word "stealth" came into their invovlement in the Philippines. However, the meeting with UPC leaders was after they had already met with various UPC pastors.
The UPC leaders are asking a couple of questions; Why are you meeting with our pastors in the first place? Are you an organization or not? If you are an organization, are you with us or against us?

None of these questions were answered.

The leaders had wanted to know the WPF member's positions before they conducted their meetings in Bohol. However they did not heed the request of the UPC leaders in the Philippines and bypassed the Philippine headquarters.

Independants meeting with independants does not even cause a ripple, (they have every right to do so, of course) but UPC General Board Members who meet with even one UPC pastor under questionable conditions, does.
The Philippine leaders have all visited the WPF web site and have made their own minds up on what the WPF is.

After speaking to several pastors in the Philippines, the percieved purpose of this meeting was to speak negatively about the UPC. Whether this was the case or not, I can't tell, what I can say is that when the "Foreign Missions Director" and one of the "Foreign Missions Committee Members" of the WPF visit a foreign country, confusion is the result.

What is the ultimate purpose of this anyway if they are still members of the UPC?

[bishoph]

I am not sure where the word "stealth" came into their invovlement in the Philippines. However, the meeting with UPC leaders was after they had already met with various UPC pastors.
The UPC leaders are asking a couple of questions; Why are you meeting with our pastors in the first place? Are you an organization or not? If you are an organization, are you with us or against us?

None of these questions were answered.

The leaders had wanted to know the WPF member's positions before they conducted their meetings in Bohol. However they did not heed the request of the UPC leaders in the Philippines and bypassed the Philippine headquarters.

Independants meeting with independants does not even cause a ripple, (they have every right to do so, of course) but UPC General Board Members who meet with even one UPC pastor under questionable conditions, does.
The Philippine leaders have all visited the WPF web site and have made their own minds up on what the WPF is.

After speaking to several pastors in the Philippines, the percieved purpose of this meeting was to speak negatively about the UPC. Whether this was the case or not, I can't tell, what I can say is that when the "Foreign Missions Director" and one of the "Foreign Missions Committee Members" of the WPF visit a foreign country, confusion is the result.

What is the ultimate purpose of this anyway if they are still members of the UPC?

This is simply not a true report! I do not doubt you may have been told this, however it is simply not true.

As you stated in your previous post, SB contacted the UPCI officials prior to coming to the Philippines, and ask for meetings with them. The first meeting which was held on Wednesday was called by myself, (and was the reason I was present)(SB and JK were not even there until the afternoon) with approx. 50 independent pastors, and some of their spouses, whom I have been working with for years. When the word of this meeting was spread, there were several UPCI pastors (about 6) who showed up uninvited by us "because they had heard that there was division in the states" and they made an assumption that we could provide them some answers. In this meeting One of the first things that I told them, (because they had already ask me privately) was that we were not there to discuss the UPCI Philippines nor UPCI North America, and from that point on nothing further was discussed, (about either) until we had a question and answer session in the afternoon. At that time some of the UPCI pastors tried to get us (SB and myself) to give answers concerning our thoughts about the direction of the UPCI and neither of us at any time spoke negatively in any way. In fact when Bro. King heard there were UPCI ministers present he only greeted this group of brethren for 2-3 minutes and left, as he had not yet met with the UPCI officials.

That Evening, (Wednesday) SB was scheduled to speak at a service (per my request) of these independent pastors, and cancelled leaving me to speak for them, as he and Bro. King were meeting with some of the UPCI Philippine officials. Never was the UPCI Philippine headquarters bypassed nor ignored.

My question to you MissionJD is, the "several pastors" you have spoken with, and who have given you their "perception" of the purpose of the meetings, were they present at the meetings? Did they hear anything negative said about the UPCI? And further if you "can't tell" whether that is the case or not, why would you spread it around so as to perpetuate something that you yourself have admitted you don't know is truth?

Again as it relates to Bohol, SB has been holding crusades there for several years, has invested much time and money in the work there, he did not start the works, however, he has invested greatly in the ministry of Bohol, and I think it would be safe to say has been instrumental in seeing a great increase of ministry there. Why should anything change now? The UPCI has never declined outside missions help before that I am aware of. The church I pastored (independent) sent monies into FMD and was never told because you are not UPCI you have to stop giving, and I have been invited by UPCI missionaries to come and minister in their countries even when I was not UPCI. Quite honestly, the ministers of Bohol probably do not even know if I am UPCI or not, because it was not even discussed. We were in Bohol to plan for the September crusades and we taught and ministered to the pastors. Not one time was the UPCI or WPF mentioned in our sessions as that was not our purpose for being there. Why should SB have to stop supporting and holding crusades now just because he may have left the UPCI. Can the lost of Bohol only be saved by the UPCI's efforts. Talk about a double standard........we want to reach the world at any cost.........but only if it is through our (UPCI) efforts.

Please understand the spirit in which I write. I love and respect the UPCI, its leadership, and its members, however, I have become quite tired of the allegations which are unfounded, just because some have chosen to leave the organization. Souls is all of our jobs, and these petty differences should not hinder winning the lost. Even Jesus told his disciples “Don’t stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:50) And in all of the time I have been associated with SB, not one time have I heard him speak negatively of the UPCI, its leadership, or its members.

Respectfully Submitted

[Admin]

This thread was closed due to disruptive posts. It has been cleaned up and reopened.

Let's stick to the subject and refrain from personal posts.

Thank you.

[MissionsJD]

This is simply not a true report! I do not doubt you may have been told this, however it is simply not true.

As you stated in your previous post, SB contacted the UPCI officials prior to coming to the Philippines, and ask for meetings with them. The first meeting which was held on Wednesday was called by myself, (and was the reason I was present)(SB and JK were not even there until the afternoon) with approx. 50 independent pastors, and some of their spouses, whom I have been working with for years. When the word of this meeting was spread, there were several UPCI pastors (about 6) who showed up uninvited by us "because they had heard that there was division in the states" and they made an assumption that we could provide them some answers. In this meeting One of the first things that I told them, (because they had already ask me privately) was that we were not there to discuss the UPCI Philippines nor UPCI North America, and from that point on nothing further was discussed, (about either) until we had a question and answer session in the afternoon. At that time some of the UPCI pastors tried to get us (SB and myself) to give answers concerning our thoughts about the direction of the UPCI and neither of us at any time spoke negatively in any way. In fact when Bro. King heard there were UPCI ministers present he only greeted this group of brethren for 2-3 minutes and left, as he had not yet met with the UPCI officials.

That Evening, (Wednesday) SB was scheduled to speak at a service (per my request) of these independent pastors, and cancelled leaving me to speak for them, as he and Bro. King were meeting with some of the UPCI Philippine officials. Never was the UPCI Philippine headquarters bypassed nor ignored.

My question to you MissionJD is, the "several pastors" you have spoken with, and who have given you their "perception" of the purpose of the meetings, were they present at the meetings? Did they hear anything negative said about the UPCI? And further if you "can't tell" whether that is the case or not, why would you spread it around so as to perpetuate something that you yourself have admitted you don't know is truth?

Again as it relates to Bohol, SB has been holding crusades there for several years, has invested much time and money in the work there, he did not start the works, however, he has invested greatly in the ministry of Bohol, and I think it would be safe to say has been instrumental in seeing a great increase of ministry there. Why should anything change now? The UPCI has never declined outside missions help before that I am aware of. The church I pastored (independent) sent monies into FMD and was never told because you are not UPCI you have to stop giving, and I have been invited by UPCI missionaries to come and minister in their countries even when I was not UPCI. Quite honestly, the ministers of Bohol probably do not even know if I am UPCI or not, because it was not even discussed. We were in Bohol to plan for the September crusades and we taught and ministered to the pastors. Not one time was the UPCI or WPF mentioned in our sessions as that was not our purpose for being there. Why should SB have to stop supporting and holding crusades now just because he may have left the UPCI. Can the lost of Bohol only be saved by the UPCI's efforts. Talk about a double standard........we want to reach the world at any cost.........but only if it is through our (UPCI) efforts.

Please understand the spirit in which I write. I love and respect the UPCI, its leadership, and its members, however, I have become quite tired of the allegations which are unfounded, just because some have chosen to leave the organization. Souls is all of our jobs, and these petty differences should not hinder winning the lost. Even Jesus told his disciples “Don’t stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:50) And in all of the time I have been associated with SB, not one time have I heard him speak negatively of the UPCI, its leadership, or its members.

Respectfully Submitted

I have read you post, and appreciate your tone. This is a difficult subject, I must admit. I will be writting more and more in the next new days as I will actually be speaking with the Pastors from Bohol, and the men who were at the meeting with you and Buxton.
I tried to be as honest as possible, by stating that theis were "perceptions" and were only reports from second hand sources.

I hear in your comments a sincere desire to give Steve Buxton the benifit of the doubt in Bohol. However, in the next coulple of days, I will reprint the entire Pentecom Article in which Steve Buxton related his Bohol experiences. I read it again last night and was still flabbergasted by how way off base it was. It had incredible detail, and then Buxton blames the false items on the "interveiwer." You will see for yourself, but I beg a few days to get that all done.

I do not know you personally, and am sure you are doing a wounderful work for the Lord. With all I know now, I cheer you on. The issue remains this fracture known as WPF. It is not easily quatified and categorised. Therefore confusion riegns, and is even magnified on a missions feild.

The leaders here are kind, loving, gentle Christians, but if they feel that there is a concerted effort to divide the church, another side of them comes out. Their will be righteous warfare waged against those whose motives are less than pur.
I trust we will be able reach an understanding through this forum.