1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?

[Dan'D]

Did we not see this coming. In the last few years you have seen more UPC churches go Independent because of standards.

The church I was raised in was UPC but the pastor was prepared in case he felt the UPC was going the wrong direction they would pull out.

No one can deny that UPC as a general has been going more and more liberal. Regardless of your personal feeling there are a lot of pastor and ministers that feel over the years the UPC left them. A lot of things are being allowed in some churches that no one would ever believe 10 – 15 years ago.

For most, being an independent church has so many problems not being in an organization. There people has no connection between other churches for large meetings, Camp Meeting, Youth Camp and general fellowship etc.

Did the Tulsa group have the right way to pull out and start another organization / Fellowship. No mater how they would go about it, they would had been criticized. It took a number of men who people highly respected to start the new fellowship. Not just respected in there own area but thru out UPC. They knew that there would be people calling them names and criticized them for what they did. Yet they did it anyway. I can not answer for all the men but the ones I know did not do it personal reasons.

This has been in the planning stages for a very some time and weather or not, NW won an election in California would not have any effect on the decision on starting the WPF.
Since they disagree with the direction UPC is going at what point do they say enough is enough. Which was where the Resolution on TV comes in. An then have enough support of pastors and ministers to do something of this magnitude.

The Tulsa 6 I’m sure was in contact with 100’s maybe 1000’s of pastor before they started WPF. If you feel they should not had contacted the other UPC ministers. Don’t we have freedom of speech within the ranks of UPC if you feel something is wrong.

Remember since this group of pastors are so well know I’m sure most if not all of the contacted pastors and minister were on first name basics.

Bro Haney does not answer to God for me, My pastor will have to. Bro. Haney was voted in to run an organization not run the church I attend. If my pastor did not do what he felt God was directing him to do, he would be derelict of his calling and again he would answer to God for that.

Whether you agree or disagree

I believe the so called Tulsa 6 felt God was directing them this way for some time. Who are we to tell them God was not directing them.


Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?

[Rev]

Did we not see this coming. In the last few years you have seen more UPC churches go Independent because of standards.

The church I was raised in was UPC but the pastor was prepared in case he felt the UPC was going the wrong direction they would pull out.

No one can deny that UPC as a general has been going more and more liberal. Regardless of your personal feeling there are a lot of pastor and ministers that feel over the years the UPC left them. A lot of things are being allowed in some churches that no one would ever believe 10 – 15 years ago.

For most, being an independent church has so many problems not being in an organization. There people has no connection between other churches for large meetings, Camp Meeting, Youth Camp and general fellowship etc.

Did the Tulsa group have the right way to pull out and start another organization / Fellowship. No mater how they would go about it, they would had been criticized. It took a number of men who people highly respected to start the new fellowship. Not just respected in there own area but thru out UPC. They knew that there would be people calling them names and criticized them for what they did. Yet they did it anyway. I can not answer for all the men but the ones I know did not do it personal reasons.

This has been in the planning stages for a very some time and weather or not, NW won an election in California would not have any effect on the decision on starting the WPF.
Since they disagree with the direction UPC is going at what point do they say enough is enough. Which was where the Resolution on TV comes in. An then have enough support of pastors and ministers to do something of this magnitude.

The Tulsa 6 I’m sure was in contact with 100’s maybe 1000’s of pastor before they started WPF. If you feel they should not had contacted the other UPC ministers. Don’t we have freedom of speech within the ranks of UPC if you feel something is wrong.

Remember since this group of pastors are so well know I’m sure most if not all of the contacted pastors and minister were on first name basics.

Bro Haney does not answer to God for me, My pastor will have to. Bro. Haney was voted in to run an organization not run the church I attend. If my pastor did not do what he felt God was directing him to do, he would be derelict of his calling and again he would answer to God for that.

Whether you agree or disagree

I believe the so called Tulsa 6 felt God was directing them this way for some time. Who are we to tell them God was not directing them.


Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?

I talked with a man that works on the "Church in a Day" program here in TX. last summer. He told me that he had just helped a pastor build a new church. (he does work for free) That pastor told him then that if the UPC voted in TV he was pulling out.

So this pastor was leaving period.

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:

[AmazingGrace]

I talked with a man that works on the "Church in a Day" program here in TX. last summer. He told me that he had just helped a pastor build a new church. (he does work for free) That pastor told him then that if the UPC voted in TV he was pulling out.

So this pastor was leaving period.

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:


Totally off topic but my former pastor helped start church in a day in Tx... awesome program there! We did many of them and just awesome!!!

[R.D. Foster]

1st, new independents have all kinds of places to take their people. When the UPC formed this was not true. Most meetings by individual churches attract a larger group than UPC events.

2nd, The UPC govt is out of date with what God is doing today. The WPF will become more of a facilitator without salaries or authority. It will attract more conservative minded people.

3rd, The UPC will change or a third group will form similar to the WPF govt that will attract more liberal minded people.

4th, The kingdom of God will move forward.

5th, the AMF was the pioneer group that made the mistakes that other groups will be wise not to follow.

6th, before the WPF formed the Tulsa 6 were some of the most respected and ethical people out there. That has not changed.

7th, lost souls no nothing about these things,so, let's have revival.

[seguidordejesus]

I'm having trouble following the original poster's writing...what was the question again?

[George]

Answers:
1. Yes, they had a right to do it. It's a free country.
2. Quietly without prosyleting. Honestly, hiding nothing, and good ethics.

[Dan'D]

Answers:
1. Yes, they had a right to do it. It's a free country.
2. Quietly without prosyleting. Honestly, hiding nothing, and good ethics.

There not trying to change someones way of thinking or views. WPF want like minded people.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

Answers:
1. Yes, they had a right to do it. It's a free country.
2. Quietly without prosyleting. Honestly, hiding nothing, and good ethics.

Quietly - If you are going to do something do it. There are a lot of others that will benefit from it.

Dan'D

[Praxeas]

Did we not see this coming. In the last few years you have seen more UPC churches go Independent because of standards.

The church I was raised in was UPC but the pastor was prepared in case he felt the UPC was going the wrong direction they would pull out.

No one can deny that UPC as a general has been going more and more liberal. Regardless of your personal feeling there are a lot of pastor and ministers that feel over the years the UPC left them. A lot of things are being allowed in some churches that no one would ever believe 10 – 15 years ago.

For most, being an independent church has so many problems not being in an organization. There people has no connection between other churches for large meetings, Camp Meeting, Youth Camp and general fellowship etc.

Did the Tulsa group have the right way to pull out and start another organization / Fellowship. No mater how they would go about it, they would had been criticized. It took a number of men who people highly respected to start the new fellowship. Not just respected in there own area but thru out UPC. They knew that there would be people calling them names and criticized them for what they did. Yet they did it anyway. I can not answer for all the men but the ones I know did not do it personal reasons.

This has been in the planning stages for a very some time and weather or not, NW won an election in California would not have any effect on the decision on starting the WPF.
Since they disagree with the direction UPC is going at what point do they say enough is enough. Which was where the Resolution on TV comes in. An then have enough support of pastors and ministers to do something of this magnitude.

The Tulsa 6 I’m sure was in contact with 100’s maybe 1000’s of pastor before they started WPF. If you feel they should not had contacted the other UPC ministers. Don’t we have freedom of speech within the ranks of UPC if you feel something is wrong.

Remember since this group of pastors are so well know I’m sure most if not all of the contacted pastors and minister were on first name basics.

Bro Haney does not answer to God for me, My pastor will have to. Bro. Haney was voted in to run an organization not run the church I attend. If my pastor did not do what he felt God was directing him to do, he would be derelict of his calling and again he would answer to God for that.

Whether you agree or disagree

I believe the so called Tulsa 6 felt God was directing them this way for some time. Who are we to tell them God was not directing them.


Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?

going liberal. Going charismatic....it's funny but in other churches a liberal is someone that supports abortions and ordinations of gays...you got an org that approved the use of TV to reach the lost and suddenly they have gone liberal

[Praxeas]

There not trying to change someones way of thinking or views. WPF want like minded people.

Dan'D
I wonder...was it true they said "You can still be a part of us and remain UPC"?

[pelathais]

Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?
1> Without a doubt, in my mind at least. Freedom of association is a right that patriots have given their lives to defend.

2> They should not have used the UPC mailing list. To purchase a license for the list for one purpose - and sign that you agree to the terms; and then to use it in violation of those terms shows a bad spirit to me. I know that these men are not answerable to me, but they could have found a way to communicate with just as much effectiveness and avoided the ethics charges.

Also, they really should have left the org before they started to recruit. They had agreed that they wouldn't divide the group in this fashion when they joined. This represents another ethical problem.

[Rev]

1> Without a doubt, in my mind at least. Freedom of association is a right that patriots have given their lives to defend.

2> They should not have used the UPC mailing list. To purchase a license for the list for one purpose - and sign that you agree to the terms; and then to use it in violation of those terms shows a bad spirit to me. I know that these men are not answerable to me, but they could have found a way to communicate with just as much effectiveness and avoided the ethics charges.

Also, they really should have left the org before they started to recruit. They had agreed that they wouldn't divide the group in this fashion when they joined. This represents another ethical problem.

My My where are those mules? :toofunny

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:

[pelathais]

Quietly - If you are going to do something do it. There are a lot of others that will benefit from it.

Dan'D
This reflects a pattern of behavior that is is rebellious and fraught with peril. Could I have a mailing list for the members of your local assembly? I would like to send each of them a pamphlet entitled "Freedom from Tithing." I think a lot of others will benefit from it.

[Dan'D]

1> Without a doubt, in my mind at least. Freedom of association is a right that patriots have given their lives to defend.

2> They should not have used the UPC mailing list. To purchase a license for the list for one purpose - and sign that you agree to the terms; and then to use it in violation of those terms shows a bad spirit to me. I know that these men are not answerable to me, but they could have found a way to communicate with just as much effectiveness and avoided the ethics charges.

Also, they really should have left the org before they started to recruit. They had agreed that they wouldn't divide the group in this fashion when they joined. This represents another ethical problem.

Are you sure that they purchase the list from UPC. That was not what I understood.

Dan'D

[salvadorifam]

I feel that men that started WPF had the right, if the organization that you have been a part of wants to leave its foundation and turn to the world, then you don't need to support it... I respect and honor the men that started this new fellowship, I praise God that there is still those that hold to the old paths...
I still attend a UPC, in some ways keeps the old paths and others its allowing more than it did even 5 yrs ago, gotta catch up with the time..
We need an organization that will hold to the old paths, not modernize everything...
We need Revival from GOd............

[Dan'D]

Are you sure that they purchase the list from UPC. That was not what I understood.

Dan'D

Sorry I did not finish my thought

I understood that there list was of there (Tulsa 6) own Accumulation.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

I feel that men that started WPF had the right, if the organization that you have been a part of wants to leave its foundation and turn to the world, then you don't need to support it... I respect and honor the men that started this new fellowship, I praise God that there is still those that hold to the old paths...
I still attend a UPC, in some ways keeps the old paths and others its allowing more than it did even 5 yrs ago, gotta catch up with the time..
My pastor preached about the Landmarks, and the UPC is getting rid of those landmarks, whats going to happen if the Lord tarries and all the oldtimers are gone, whats going to be of the UPC??? I praise GOd I am not UPC, i am apostolic and still believe in the old time way...

Amen
Dan'D

[KarenJo]

Yes, the men that left have a right to do whatever they want to.

But get over the “WE ARE MORE HOLY THEN YOU” attitude….

I DONT think they have the right to pull out an entire church out unless that church body is in agreement with it. A wise man of God is not a dictator with regards to the people he is leading.

When you look at the natural progression of technology and fashion, shouldn’t these things be looked at in balance?

We preached against radio – but now it’s ok?
We preached against the width of the neck-tie – but now men wear what’s in fashion?
We preached against electronic instruments in the church – now we have many.
We preached against wearing red – now?

We preached against ….The list goes on and on.

The list of things that may have been wrong so many years ago are not considered wrong any more. Is it because the entire world is getting loose or is it natural progression? Do we go back to the days when we didn’t have air condition in the church? Do we go back to no radios or newspapers? Could it be that the progression of technology is just that, progression? What happens when the TV and Computer, etc. become one?

We can still have standards and we can draw the line with what comes into our home. So, are a TV Screen and a Computer Screen really different? No!

What I see is that the WPF will be just like the UPC in regards to the level of convictions that will be represented. You will have the Liberal, the Conservative and the Middle of the Road. So what will change? Nothing!

No, Bro. Haney will not answer to God for you and he has never told anyone how to run their church. He has family and friends who are both liberal and conservative.

So, maybe we should only walk everywhere, raise our own food and make our own clothes. We don’t need to use any form of technology, and make sure you get rid of your computers and throw out the cell phones. Or, if you are a mature child of God, you can manage what your eyes see and what your ears hear. Not everything in this world is a sin. But it can be if we use it the wrong way…We need BALANCE.

[pelathais]

1st, new independents have all kinds of places to take their people. When the UPC formed this was not true. Most meetings by individual churches attract a larger group than UPC events.
?

2nd, The UPC govt is out of date with what God is doing today. The WPF will become more of a facilitator without salaries or authority. It will attract more conservative minded people.
Ironically, it was the "conservative minded people" who tended to resist changes in the structure of the UPC while forcing through their program of changes to the Articles of Faith.

3rd, The UPC will change or a third group will form similar to the WPF govt that will attract more liberal minded people.

4th, The kingdom of God will move forward.
Yes, the Kingdom of God seems to resist control. It is moving forward in your community as well, though you may have to step outside your local church to see it.

5th, the AMF was the pioneer group that made the mistakes that other groups will be wise not to follow.
The brawling fist fights and the bidding for the "right" to burn or tear up a UPC card. Your bar for "wisdom" is set pretty low.

6th, before the WPF formed the Tulsa 6 were some of the most respected and ethical people out there. That has not changed.
Again, step out and look around.

7th, lost souls no nothing about these things,so, let's have revival.
Can I ask you an honest question? Do you consider the ignorance that "lost souls" may have of the political landscape that they are about to enter a good thing?

What happens when they learn the things that you don't want them to know?

[pelathais]

Are you sure that they purchase the list from UPC. That was not what I understood.

Dan'D
A poster here sent an email to the info at wpf email address and asked about that. The response they got back from "info" was that they used the list that they had purchased for "another conference" for the Tulsa Summit as well.

[Dan'D]

Yes, the men that left have a right to do whatever they want to.

But get over the “WE ARE MORE HOLY THEN YOU” attitude….

I DONT think they have the right to pull out an entire church out unless that church body is in agreement with it. A wise man of God is not a dictator with regards to the people he is leading.

When you look at the natural progression of technology and fashion, shouldn’t these things be looked at in balance?

We preached against radio – but now it’s ok?
We preached against the width of the neck-tie – but now men wear what’s in fashion?
We preached against electronic instruments in the church – now we have many.
We preached against wearing red – now?

We preached against ….The list goes on and on.

The list of things that may have been wrong so many years ago are not considered wrong any more. Is it because the entire world is getting loose or is it natural progression? Do we go back to the days when we didn’t have air condition in the church? Do we go back to no radios or newspapers? Could it be that the progression of technology is just that, progression? What happens when the TV and Computer, etc. become one?

We can still have standards and we can draw the line with what comes into our home. So, are a TV Screen and a Computer Screen really different? No!

What I see is that the WPF will be just like the UPC in regards to the level of convictions that will be represented. You will have the Liberal, the Conservative and the Middle of the Road. So what will change? Nothing!

No, Bro. Haney will not answer to God for you and he has never told anyone how to run their church. He has family and friends who are both liberal and conservative.

So, maybe we should only walk everywhere, raise our own food and make our own clothes. We don’t need to use any form of technology, and make sure you get rid of your computers and throw out the cell phones. Or, if you are a mature child of God, you can manage what your eyes see and what your ears hear. Not everything in this world is a sin. But it can be if we use it the wrong way…We need BALANCE.
The one of the Tulsa 6 that I know would never give anyone the feeling that

“WE ARE MORE HOLY THEN YOU” attitude

Dan’D

[izzyschwartz]

They have a right to leave the UPC, but it can be said of the Tulsa 6, if it were not for bad ethics they would not have any ethics at all... They and those who went to Tulsa to support and follow them have been a hollow subculture for some time within the UPC. Hypocritical overweening blind leaders of the blind, who will soon fall into the proverbial ditch of their own devise.

[KarenJo]

The one of the Tulsa 6 that I know would never give anyone the feeling that

“WE ARE MORE HOLY THEN YOU” attitude

Dan’D


GREAT! That wasn't always the case with some.....

[Dan'D]

They have a right to leave the UPC, but it can be said of the Tulsa 6, if it were not for bad ethics they would not have any ethics at all... They and those who went to Tulsa to support and follow them have been a hollow subculture for some time within the UPC. Hypocritical overweening blind leaders of the blind, who will soon fall into the proverbial ditch of their own devise.

What have you been smoking
Dan'D

[pelathais]

I feel that men that started WPF had the right, if the organization that you have been a part of wants to leave its foundation and turn to the world, then you don't need to support it... I respect and honor the men that started this new fellowship, I praise God that there is still those that hold to the old paths...
I still attend a UPC, in some ways keeps the old paths and others its allowing more than it did even 5 yrs ago, gotta catch up with the time..
We need an organization that will hold to the old paths, not modernize everything...
We need Revival from GOd............
We do indeed need revival from God.

The organization, however did not "leave its foundation." The WPF and other so-called "conservatives" have been working for years to change the teachings of the UPC and the Articles of Faith and Fundamental Doctrine. These men represent the forces of "change."

When the UPC voted to undo one of those changes, they cried "foul" and left. So be it. But don't say the UPC "changed" while these men kept "the old paths." They were cutting new trails all along.

[Rev]

They have a right to leave the UPC, but it can be said of the Tulsa 6, if it were not for bad ethics they would not have any ethics at all... They and those who went to Tulsa to support and follow them have been a hollow subculture for some time within the UPC. Hypocritical overweening blind leaders of the blind, who will soon fall into the proverbial ditch of their own devise.

You might like to know that if you get to personal, they will ban you.

[Dan'D]

GREAT! That wasn't always the case with some.....

Some of the six
Dan'D

[pelathais]

Sorry I did not finish my thought

I understood that there list was of there (Tulsa 6) own Accumulation.

Dan'D
Dandy, "info" at WPF said they bought it for "another conference" and that they used it for Tulsa. That's what they said.

[pelathais]

You might like to know that if you get to personal, they will ban you.
Wouldn't a banning be personal too?

[KarenJo]

Some of the six
Dan'D

Yeah, one or two... but time has a way of changing everyone.

[AmazingGrace]

They have a right to leave the UPC, but it can be said of the Tulsa 6, if it were not for bad ethics they would not have any ethics at all... They and those who went to Tulsa to support and follow them have been a hollow subculture for some time within the UPC. Hypocritical overweening blind leaders of the blind, who will soon fall into the proverbial ditch of their own devise.

Amen! But as I have always said...More power to them and let them be gone and enjoy! If they dont want to be in the UPC we sure dont need them pulling no one down! And ya know... its not like they wont be in the same boat as the upc later anywho... well actually sooner than later.. I mean one of their main people is already on DVD.. .and Youtube... and webcasts his services... oh but... thats not on TV... I forgot... thats on COMPUTER!!!!!!!!!

[izzyschwartz]

You might like to know that if you get to personal, they will ban you.

Thank you for the warning, but what are you talking about here, people or chopped liver? The topic is the Tulsa 6 who are "persons", so in discussing them it is hard not to get personal... Do you follow me?

[AmazingGrace]

Yeah, one or two... but time has a way of changing everyone.

I tend to think they havent changed too much ;)

[Rev]

Wouldn't a banning be personal too?

Someone said something to me about that, and I said if they ban me it will only be a blessing to me and them. :toofunny

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:

[Rev]

Thank you for the warning, but what are you talking about here, people or chopped liver? The topic is the Tulsa 6 who are "persons", so in discussing them it is hard not to get personal... Do you follow me?

Have at it - I just thought you might like to know!

[KarenJo]

I tend to think they havent changed too much ;)


Well, I try to be nice...

[AmazingGrace]

Well, I try to be nice...

I try too... but they know me too well... kidding!!!

[izzyschwartz]

What have you been smoking
Dan'D

I've been "smoking" the rot being spewed out by the afore mentioned blind leaders of the blind and their blind followers, and have finally decided to speak out about it! Spiritual pride is insipid in all its various flavors, don't you think?

[izzyschwartz]

Amen! But as I have always said...More power to them and let them be gone and enjoy! If they dont want to be in the UPC we sure dont need them pulling no one down! And ya know... its not like they wont be in the same boat as the upc later anywho... well actually sooner than later.. I mean one of their main people is already on DVD.. .and Youtube... and webcasts his services... oh but... thats not on TV... I forgot... thats on COMPUTER!!!!!!!!!

Amen to you- well said!

[R.D. Foster]

We do indeed need revival from God.

The WPF and other so-called "conservatives" have been working for years to change the teachings of the UPC and the Articles of Faith and Fundamental Doctrine. These men represent the forces of "change."
They were cutting new trails all along.


Please offer examples of how and what they were trying to change.

[R.D. Foster]

I've been "smoking" the rot being spewed out by the afore mentioned blind leaders of the blind and their blind followers, and have finally decided to speak out about it! Spiritual pride is insipid in all its various flavors, don't you think?

yes

[Whole Hearted]

THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WAHT EVER THEY WANT.

I applaud them for their courage and strength.

[Minty]

1) They were not happy with the UPC for various reasons so they had every right to move on to something else. It would have been better for every one involved if they would have done so with honor and integrity. A few respectable men dropped out of the UPC first.
2) They should not have used the UPC in anyway shape or form to advance the WPF. They should not have used UPC names and addresses. They should not have implored others to follow them. They should not have bashed the UPC. The district superintendents should have listen to Bro. Haney when he asked them not to attend Tulsa. When they directly went against their leader’s direction, they were being dishonorable and disrespectful. They held an office with the UPC and went to WPF against Bro. Haney’s request. Isn’t that rebellion? The WPF should consider this when they are assigning positions.
They should have dropped completely out of the UPC before pursuing the WPF. They should have resigned from all offices before hand. It was offensive to hold onto the UPC just incase. The UPC has served them well for many years. Didn’t the UPC deserve honor and respect?

IT’S NOT WHAT THEY DID!!! IT’S HOW THEY DID IT!!!

[dizzyde]

There not trying to change someones way of thinking or views. WPF want like minded people.

Dan'D

Then they are already doomed. Their current leadership is not "like-minded".

This is a group of men with a very wide range of "standards".

If these issues are the basis of the formation of a new group, when the dust settles, these men are going to have a whole new set of problems.

[Timmy]

Then they are already doomed. Their current leadership is not "like-minded".

This is a group of men with a very wide range of "standards".

If these issues are the basis of the formation of a new group, when the dust settles, these men are going to have a whole new set of problems.

For one thing, what's up with allowing women preachers!? I predict that will be the first issue to result in the WWPF's first "Tulsa". :winkgrin

[CaliG]

Right on!! How about throwing out those 8 hour days on the golf course!! Heaven help us if they take away our golf game!! Would that be considered to be worldly amusement--entertainment? I think it just depends on who is deciding.

[stmatthew]

A poster here sent an email to the info at wpf email address and asked about that. The response they got back from "info" was that they used the list that they had purchased for "another conference" for the Tulsa Summit as well.

Read the email again. It seems to imply that they bought an updated list every year for events, and used the same one over and over throughout the year. Whether you see it as right of wrong, is your viewpoint. I really could care less at this point what they did, because I see them as just another UPCI.


This was a dialogue between myself and whoever answers their email (info@worldwidepf.com) at the WWPF.

I first emailed and asked the following:

"Do you think it is unethical to steal a mailing list from an organization you are planning to leave and use that mailing list to advertise for your new "fellowship"/organization?"


Their reply:

"it was not stolen.
Sincerely,
God Bless You"

My response:

"If that is true, why was my UPCI ministerial ID on it?"


Their 2nd reply:

"The list was bought and paid for from the UPC. They used to give them
away and now they sell them. I helped sponsor a meeting and we used
to get a new one every year.

In case you wondered, there are UPCI mailing lists ALL over this
nation. I know of literally hundreds of ministers that have
them...Sorry.
God Bless You,"
I sent this third reply I sent on the 15th of January. I have not received a reply. (not that I anticipate receiving one):

"If you read the guidelines to using such a list, it states that they are for a one time use and your district superintendent must sign his approval for the use. Did you have district superintendent approval to use this list? Have you used it more than once? Also, was this the first time you has used that list? How many times have you used this same list? Also, UPCI idnumbers are not supposed to be included on out of the building mailings. This is a clear example of unethical behavior unbecoming ministers of the gospel."

I know the UPCI is not perfect. I have plenty of complaints, but organizations/fellowships are made of people and people are not perfect, thus this new fellowship will have plenty of it's own problems. If they were truly starting this organization over the TV resolution, it would make them look pretty silly and inconsistent when most of them have web broadcasts. You cannot legislate every media source. If they have other complaints, they should start talking about them instead of creating new fellowships/organizations.

[Admin]

They have a right to leave the UPC, but it can be said of the Tulsa 6, if it were not for bad ethics they would not have any ethics at all... They and those who went to Tulsa to support and follow them have been a hollow subculture for some time within the UPC. Hypocritical overweening blind leaders of the blind, who will soon fall into the proverbial ditch of their own devise.

Thank you for the warning, but what are you talking about here, people or chopped liver? The topic is the Tulsa 6 who are "persons", so in discussing them it is hard not to get personal... Do you follow me?

I've been "smoking" the rot being spewed out by the afore mentioned blind leaders of the blind and their blind followers, and have finally decided to speak out about it! Spiritual pride is insipid in all its various flavors, don't you think?


This is a warning. Please refrain from the attack on ministry. Namecalling is not allowed here at AFF. Deal with their wrong beliefs, or wrong doing.

[dizzyde]

Read the email again. It seems to imply that they bought an updated list every year for events, and used the same one over and over throughout the year. Whether you see it as right of wrong, is your viewpoint. I really could care less at this point what they did, because I see them as just another UPCI.

The sheer volume of your posts on the topic, and the heat with which you have stated your position would seem to indicate otherwise.

[stmatthew]

The sheer volume of your posts on the topic, and the heat with which you have stated your position would seem to indicate otherwise.

The only reason I have posted FOR the WPF is because there are so few that are here that defended them, and so many that post against them. I am not a memeber, nor do I believe I ever will be, a memeber of the WPF. I really don't see a major difference in them and the UPC. Not enough of one to matter anyway.

[dizzyde]

The only reason I have posted FOR the WPF is because there are so few that are here that defended them, and so many that post against them. I am not a memeber, nor do I believe I ever will be, a memeber of the WPF. I really don't see a major difference in them and the UPC. Not enough of one to matter anyway.

OK, that makes me understand the situation a little more, I kind of wondered what your stake in it was.

The funny thing is, we agree on the last point, that is what makes me question it as much as I do!

[RevBuddy]

My conclusion...

...it's amazing how much real ignorance there is among us OP's. The more I read, the more it oozes out of us...quite a shame, really...

...all the spectators to our illogical reasoning must be most amused by it...

...at times, we reek of it...we can't "hep" oursefffs...it's in our jeans...

[stmatthew]

The only reason I have posted FOR the WPF is because there are so few that are here that defended them, and so many that post against them. I am not a memeber, nor do I believe I ever will be, a memeber of the WPF. I really don't see a major difference in them and the UPC. Not enough of one to matter anyway.

OK, that makes me understand the situation a little more, I kind of wondered what your stake in it was.

The funny thing is, we agree on the last point, that is what makes me question it as much as I do!

I just realized I spelled member wrong. TWICE!!!!! hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stmatthew]

My conclusion...

...it's amazing how much real ignorance there is among us OP's. The more I read, the more it oozes out of us...quite a shame, really...

...all the spectators to our illogical reasoning must be most amused by it...

...at times, we reek of it...we can't "hep" oursefffs...it's in our jeans...

REV,

My mom told me a story of a lady that she used to pick up for church. This was one of those "super spiritual" people. One day they were driving, and the lady was telling my mom how spiritual she was. She raised her hand towards the ceiling of the car and said, "I'm up here", and then lowered it to almost touching the floor and said, "and your down here". I told my mom she should have stopped the car and said, "and your OUT HERE!!". :D

[dizzyde]

I just realized I spelled member wrong. TWICE!!!!! hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I didn't want to say.... LOL!!

But it is weird that you did it twice, maybe you were trying to create a new word!! :toofunny

[stmatthew]

Well, I didn't want to say.... LOL!!

But it is weird that you did it twice, maybe you were trying to create a new word!! :toofunny

systematic typing. at least I'm consistent :D

[embonpoint]

My conclusion...

...it's amazing how much real ignorance there is among us OP's. The more I read, the more it oozes out of us...quite a shame, really...

...all the spectators to our illogical reasoning must be most amused by it...

...at times, we reek of it...we can't "hep" oursefffs...it's in our jeans...

Especially the supersmart and logical that accept things like oohhh say Scientology or mormonism or the face of Mary in a tortilla or...............

I sometimes think we are a little hard on ourselves too. :kickcan

[The Mrs]

I just realized I spelled member wrong. TWICE!!!!! hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought it was the name of a Muppet from years ago!

I was about to go look it up and find it! :laffatu

[rgcraig]

My conclusion...

...it's amazing how much real ignorance there is among us OP's. The more I read, the more it oozes out of us...quite a shame, really...

...all the spectators to our illogical reasoning must be most amused by it...

...at times, we reek of it...we can't "hep" oursefffs...it's in our jeans...

jeans?

[pelathais]

Please offer examples of how and what they were trying to change.
Read David Bernard's Understanding the Articles of Faith for a detailed explanation and history of the changes to the Articles of Faith. If you'd like, I can point you to a publically available electronic version. Just PM me and I respond via PM.

As far as "trying" to change- they did change. The "conservatives" have had almost unfettered success in running their agenda through the UPC at least since the 1950's. The Tampa vote was the first time that any element of their changes was ever rolled back.

[pelathais]

Read the email again. It seems to imply that they bought an updated list every year for events, and used the same one over and over throughout the year. Whether you see it as right of wrong, is your viewpoint. I really could care less at this point what they did, because I see them as just another UPCI.
Thanks for posting that Matt, and I appreciate your independent viewpoint.

[pelathais]

I just realized I spelled member wrong. TWICE!!!!! hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought that it was sort of Freudian. A meme (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meme) is an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture.

So when you typed "memeber" it almost makes sense as a play on words. You've become quite the highbrow. Are you certain that we're worthy to receive your memes? http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Mr. Steinway]

Will the Tulsa 6 make their membership contact info available to the UPCI if they request it?

[AmazingGrace]

Will the Tulsa 6 make their membership contact info available to the UPCI if they request it?

No!!! They are keeping there list private so no one will call any of their members since they got them by sheer act of God.. you know they would never steal someone elses saints so how dare anyone else think of doing so?!?! jk

[lilanastasia]

I do have one comment that was alluded to before regarding the WPF; obviously, people are people and they can do what they wish; however, there are ethical ways and unethical ways of doing things.

Personally, I think that their motives are completely selfish. Being in the position that I am (connections with UPCI HQ), there is more to the WPF than meets the eye. And there is more behind the scenes than what can actually be seen.

For instance, WPF was NOT created just because of the TV issue, this has been in effect for a while now. It seems that they were waiting for the perfect time to launch their efforts; possibly when it would appear to have the most "controversy".

If you notice who is on the Executive board of WPF, it is a list of men who have continuely tried to be a part of the UPCI Executive Board, but have been shunned and disregarded. It is a list of men who desperately want their names to be in the forefront. Which is actually very sad...that you have to start your own organizaton so that you can have control.

Also, I do not feel that the UPC is "going liberal" just because they voted on allowing advertisments on TV. Times change and they are rolling with the changes and trying to broaden their efforts in reaching the lost. The foundation of the UPCI has not been altered one bit...conservative/liberal - whatever. UPCI still believes that repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and living a holy and pure life are still the foundations of the UPCI - which is the Apostolic Message - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Well...I guess that's all I have to say...except one more thing. As a perfectionist and embracing my OCDS, can you please read your posts before posting them to make sure that they are not filled with grammatical errors or mispellings. Very frustrating...ha :stirpot

[Apprehended]

Yes, they have a constitutional right. No problem.

No, it was not done right. Too many ethical violations are involved that only the unscrupulous can appreciate.

Actually, I am very hurt over this. Men of whom I once held the highest regard, respect and admiration for have (I edited the last portion of this sentence).

No amount of holiness preaching that they might do will undo the damage done. It is trust and confidence betrayed.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm not UPCI,so I'm not in the loop,but I don't see anything wrong with folks starting ministerial fellowships provided things are done ethical.
I'm not UC so I proably don't know too much about this sort of situation,but church politics is wearysome to me.

[Whole Hearted]

I do have one comment that was alluded to before regarding the WPF; obviously, people are people and they can do what they wish; however, there are ethical ways and unethical ways of doing things.

Personally, I think that their motives are completely selfish. Being in the position that I am (connections with UPCI HQ), there is more to the WPF than meets the eye. And there is more behind the scenes than what can actually be seen.

For instance, WPF was NOT created just because of the TV issue, this has been in effect for a while now. It seems that they were waiting for the perfect time to launch their efforts; possibly when it would appear to have the most "controversy".

If you notice who is on the Executive board of WPF, it is a list of men who have continuely tried to be a part of the UPCI Executive Board, but have been shunned and disregarded. It is a list of men who desperately want their names to be in the forefront. Which is actually very sad...that you have to start your own organizaton so that you can have control.

Also, I do not feel that the UPC is "going liberal" just because they voted on allowing advertisments on TV. Times change and they are rolling with the changes and trying to broaden their efforts in reaching the lost. The foundation of the UPCI has not been altered one bit...conservative/liberal - whatever. UPCI still believes that repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and living a holy and pure life are still the foundations of the UPCI - which is the Apostolic Message - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Well...I guess that's all I have to say...except one more thing. As a perfectionist and embracing my OCDS, can you please read your posts before posting them to make sure that they are not filled with grammatical errors or mispellings. Very frustrating...ha :stirpot

:drama:TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaROCKS::TulsaRO CKS::TulsaROCKS:

[embonpoint]

I do have one comment that was alluded to before regarding the WPF; obviously, people are people and they can do what they wish; however, there are ethical ways and unethical ways of doing things.

Personally, I think that their motives are completely selfish. Being in the position that I am (connections with UPCI HQ), there is more to the WPF than meets the eye. And there is more behind the scenes than what can actually be seen.

For instance, WPF was NOT created just because of the TV issue, this has been in effect for a while now. It seems that they were waiting for the perfect time to launch their efforts; possibly when it would appear to have the most "controversy".

If you notice who is on the Executive board of WPF, it is a list of men who have continuely tried to be a part of the UPCI Executive Board, but have been shunned and disregarded. It is a list of men who desperately want their names to be in the forefront. Which is actually very sad...that you have to start your own organizaton so that you can have control.

Also, I do not feel that the UPC is "going liberal" just because they voted on allowing advertisments on TV. Times change and they are rolling with the changes and trying to broaden their efforts in reaching the lost. The foundation of the UPCI has not been altered one bit...conservative/liberal - whatever. UPCI still believes that repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and living a holy and pure life are still the foundations of the UPCI - which is the Apostolic Message - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Well...I guess that's all I have to say...except one more thing. As a perfectionist and embracing my OCDS, can you please read your posts before posting them to make sure that they are not filled with grammatical errors or mispellings. Very frustrating...ha :stirpot

I agree that mispelling drives ya crazy!! :laffatu

[Dan'D]

I do have one comment that was alluded to before regarding the WPF; obviously, people are people and they can do what they wish; however, there are ethical ways and unethical ways of doing things.

Personally, I think that their motives are completely selfish. Being in the position that I am (connections with UPCI HQ), there is more to the WPF than meets the eye. And there is more behind the scenes than what can actually be seen.

For instance, WPF was NOT created just because of the TV issue, this has been in effect for a while now. It seems that they were waiting for the perfect time to launch their efforts; possibly when it would appear to have the most "controversy".

If you notice who is on the Executive board of WPF, it is a list of men who have continuely tried to be a part of the UPCI Executive Board, but have been shunned and disregarded. It is a list of men who desperately want their names to be in the forefront. Which is actually very sad...that you have to start your own organizaton so that you can have control.

Also, I do not feel that the UPC is "going liberal" just because they voted on allowing advertisments on TV. Times change and they are rolling with the changes and trying to broaden their efforts in reaching the lost. The foundation of the UPCI has not been altered one bit...conservative/liberal - whatever. UPCI still believes that repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and living a holy and pure life are still the foundations of the UPCI - which is the Apostolic Message - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Well...I guess that's all I have to say...except one more thing. As a perfectionist and embracing my OCDS, can you please read your posts before posting them to make sure that they are not filled with grammatical errors or mispellings. Very frustrating...ha :stirpot

I will start with saying I will guarantee that any and all my post and threads will be filled with grammatical errors or misspellings. If spell check don’t pick it up, O well.

Criticizing my English is not being a perfectionist it is being arrogant. You have no idea my background.

Correct WPF was not just created just because of TV. That was just the last straw.

No matter how the founders of WPF started the fellowship there would be some who still say it was unethical.

There was obviously a need for WPF or you would not be seeing so many pastor/ministers signing up with WPF.

I’m assuming you will find fault with each and every Pastor/Minister that goes with WPF. If that is the case you will be busy.

I do know some of (founders of WPF) these men and I feel the motives are not selfish in any way. These men are well respected and well liked men of God. Regardless to what you may say about these men.

Within a short time you will be hearing about a lot of other men of God that are well liked and well respected leaving the UPC and going WPF. Because there is a need.

Will a backslider recognize your church.

The foundation of the UPCI has been altered. There are many UPC churches allowing thing to creep into the churches that would not had been allowed 10 – 20 years ago. It is not just with a few. In many many UPC churches the majority of the saints have a TV. If you get TV on your computer that is wrong also.

Our people should look different inside and out. Because we are different.

Bring involved in UPC for as long as I have I would say there is more to UPC than meets the eye.

Time will tell

Dan’D

[ogatt]

I will start with saying I will guarantee that any and all my post and threads will be filled with grammatical errors or misspellings. If spell check don’t pick it up, O well.

Criticizing my English is not being a perfectionist it is being arrogant. You have no idea my background.

Correct WPF was not just created just because of TV. That was just the last straw.

No matter how the founders of WPF started the fellowship there would be some who still say it was unethical.

There was obviously a need for WPF or you would not be seeing so many pastor/ministers signing up with WPF.

I’m assuming you will find fault with each and every Pastor/Minister that goes with WPF. If that is the case you will be busy.

I do know some of (founders of WPF) these men and I feel the motives are not selfish in any way. These men are well respected and well liked men of God. Regardless to what you may say about these men.

Within a short time you will be hearing about a lot of other men of God that are well liked and well respected leaving the UPC and going WPF. Because there is a need.

Will a backslider recognize your church.

The foundation of the UPCI has been altered. There are many UPC churches allowing thing to creep into the churches that would not had been allowed 10 – 20 years ago. It is not just with a few. In many many UPC churches the majority of the saints have a TV. If you get TV on your computer that is wrong also.

Our people should look different inside and out. Because we are different.

Bring involved in UPC for as long as I have I would say there is more to UPC than meets the eye.

Time will tell

Dan’D

the wpf and upc are both liberals.

[Dan'D]

the wpf and upc are both liberals.


And you believe in the Easter bunny also
Dan'D

[ogatt]

And you believe in the Easter bunny also

i dont recognize the easter bunny and christmas trees and rings and colored shirts. i better stop here cause the list could go on for days
Dan'D
i dont recognize the easter bunny and christmas trees and rings and colored shirts. i better stop here cause the list could go on for days

[ogatt]

i have started my own orginaztion. it is called
afat

apostolic fear and trembling

[embonpoint]

i have started my own orginaztion. it is called
afat

apostolic fear and trembling

If you put your women and youth in the same group you could call it Ladies Auxillary Division and Youth but someone would have to be the president of AFAT LADY

[grace_seeker]

i have started my own orginaztion. it is called
afat

apostolic fear and trembling

You are having a lot of fun aren't you? Keep up the humor! We'll keep laughing! :tvhappy.... oh wait, we aren't supposed to be indulging in that avenue of pleasure....it's supposed to have been closed off! :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

[dht0943]

"In many many UPC churches the majority of the saints have a TV. If you get TV on your computer that is wrong also. "says Dan'D so... is it the picture that is wrong to look at? The sound? Because im sure that your computer monitor projects both picture and sound. Is it the box in itself? Explain to me dear brother what it is about the tv that is so "wrong". But your computer screen is ok? Please please explain this to me as I am VERY confused.

[R.D. Foster]

"In many many UPC churches the majority of the saints have a TV. If you get TV on your computer that is wrong also. "says Dan'D so... is it the picture that is wrong to look at? The sound? Because im sure that your computer monitor projects both picture and sound. Is it the box in itself? Explain to me dear brother what it is about the tv that is so "wrong". But your computer screen is ok? Please please explain this to me as I am VERY confused.


When I go to the library, I go to the books of info and entertainment that I desire. I see the titles of books that I don't want to read. I check out only the books that I feel will meet my personal desire for righteousness. The internet is an info highway, kind of like a library. I use blocks so that is hard to get bad stuff. They tell me I could get past this block but I don't know how and don't want to know how. On the internet, I choose.

The technology of television is marvelous. But, its system of access is much different than the computer screen. I control the programming of what I view with a computer screen. When one turns on a TV it controls the programming. I know that it is not all bad. But everyone (outside of UPC'ers who want tv) agree that its major function is hollywood style entertainment. Television programming for the most part is anti everything the Bible is for.

This is my brief explanation. I think you will agree that I have some valid points for my personal non use of tv. I am not posting in an holier than thou attitude. Neither am I angry. I feel that the UPC ban on tv did way more good than harm and the reverse of the ban will do way more harm than good. I am not against tv technology but will not go for its programming.

If you rip my statements apart please don't do it in the childish ridiculous fashion that so many use. Please try to have real grown-up arguments of why you think tv is good for you. God bless.

[Maple Leaf]

I do have one comment that was alluded to before regarding the WPF; obviously, people are people and they can do what they wish; however, there are ethical ways and unethical ways of doing things.

Personally, I think that their motives are completely selfish. Being in the position that I am (connections with UPCI HQ), there is more to the WPF than meets the eye. And there is more behind the scenes than what can actually be seen.

For instance, WPF was NOT created just because of the TV issue, this has been in effect for a while now. It seems that they were waiting for the perfect time to launch their efforts; possibly when it would appear to have the most "controversy".

If you notice who is on the Executive board of WPF, it is a list of men who have continuely (continually) tried to be a part of the UPCI Executive Board, but have been shunned and disregarded. It is a list of men who desperately want their names to be in the forefront. Which is actually very sad...that you have to start your own organizaton (organization) so that you can have control. (This is actually very sad...that you have to start your own "organizaton" (sic) so that you can have control.)

Also, I do not feel that the UPC is "going liberal" just because they voted on allowing advertisments (advertisements) on TV. Times change and they are rolling with the changes and trying to broaden their efforts in reaching the lost. The foundation of the UPCI has not been altered one bit...conservative/liberal - whatever. UPCI still believes that repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and living a holy and pure life are still the foundations of the UPCI - which is the Apostolic Message - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Well...I guess that's all I have to say...except one more thing. As a perfectionist and embracing my OCDS, can you please read your posts before posting them to make sure that they are not filled with grammatical errors or mispellings (misspellings). Very frustrating...ha :stirpot

Yup.

Pretty much sends me into OCDS overload.

:nahnah

[RevBuddy]

REV,

My mom told me a story of a lady that she used to pick up for church. This was one of those "super spiritual" people. One day they were driving, and the lady was telling my mom how spiritual she was. She raised her hand towards the ceiling of the car and said, "I'm up here", and then lowered it to almost touching the floor and said, "and your down here". I told my mom she should have stopped the car and said, "and your OUT HERE!!". :D

I like that story...but it would have been better IF your mother had actually said that...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[RevBuddy]

Especially the supersmart and logical that accept things like oohhh say Scientology or mormonism or the face of Mary in a tortilla or...............

I sometimes think we are a little hard on ourselves too. :kickcan

Nope...we're not hard enough...we let so much misinformation and illogical thinking permeate our ranks that it's a shame...

...sorry, but we need to address much of this silliness when it happens...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[lilanastasia]

Yup.

Pretty much sends me into OCDS overload.

:nahnah

DANG IT...I'M MY OWN WORST ENEMY!!!! :largehalo

Maybe it's all the grammatical errors that I hate... their-there, your-you're...hmmmm, maybe I should pray about it...

[lilanastasia]

"Criticizing my English is not being a perfectionist it is being arrogant. You have no idea my background."

Ummmm...I didn't mention any names...

[RevBuddy]

jeans?

Renda...it's a joke, ok...just a joke... in this particular form of humor, the actual word, "genes," is replaced by a homophone - the word, "jeans." This would serve to reinforce the writer's main point of his post - in this case, the use of the word, "jeans," seems to indicate a lack of understanding or knowledge. Jeans being a "down home" type of apparel...well, now you see???

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[rgcraig]

Renda...it's a joke, ok...just a joke... in this particular form of humor, the actual word, "genes," is replaced by a homophone - the word, "jeans." This would serve to reinforce the writer's main point of his post - in this case, the use of the word, "jeans," seems to indicate a lack of understanding or knowledge. Jeans being a "down home" type of apparel...well, now you see???

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

S-l-o-w down on the coffee!!! :toofunny

[RevBuddy]

Yes, they have a constitutional right. No problem.

No, it was not done right. Too many ethical violations are involved that only the unscrupulous can appreciate.

Actually, I am very hurt over this. Men of whom I once held the highest regard, respect and admiration for have (I edited the last portion of this sentence).

No amount of holiness preaching that they might do will undo the damage done. It is trust and confidence betrayed.

Apprehended's assessment above addresses the heart of the issues that those who believe the WPF has a clear RIGHT to organize their fellowship; however, they have failed miserably in their attempt to do so in a RIGHT manner...that's the crux of the matter in a nutshell...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[lilanastasia]

"The foundation of the UPCI has been altered. There are many UPC churches allowing thing to creep into the churches that would not had been allowed 10 – 20 years ago. It is not just with a few. In many many UPC churches the majority of the saints have a TV. If you get TV on your computer that is wrong also."


Hmmmm, call me liberal I guess because there's nothing wrong with the laity having television. I believe it's the ministry that are asked not to have one, so where is it wrong there? And furthermore, if you choose to have a television and can control what you watch, how is that wrong? It seems that there a lot of "gnats" flying around and getting caught in people's throats...:violin

[rgcraig]

Criticizing my English is not being a perfectionist it is being arrogant. You have no idea my background.

Ummmm...I didn't mention any names...
You might want to use the quote button so we know who you are talking to. This looks like you said all this and you were actually quoting the first sentence.

[RevBuddy]

I will start with saying I will guarantee that any and all my post and threads will be filled with grammatical errors or misspellings. If spell check don’t pick it up, O well.

Criticizing my English is not being a perfectionist it is being arrogant. You have no idea my background.

Correct WPF was not just created just because of TV. That was just the last straw.

No matter how the founders of WPF started the fellowship there would be some who still say it was unethical.

There was obviously a need for WPF or you would not be seeing so many pastor/ministers signing up with WPF.

I’m assuming you will find fault with each and every Pastor/Minister that goes with WPF. If that is the case you will be busy.

I do know some of (founders of WPF) these men and I feel the motives are not selfish in any way. These men are well respected and well liked men of God. Regardless to what you may say about these men.

Within a short time you will be hearing about a lot of other men of God that are well liked and well respected leaving the UPC and going WPF. Because there is a need.

Will a backslider recognize your church.

The foundation of the UPCI has been altered. There are many UPC churches allowing thing to creep into the churches that would not had been allowed 10 – 20 years ago. It is not just with a few. In many many UPC churches the majority of the saints have a TV. If you get TV on your computer that is wrong also.

Our people should look different inside and out. Because we are different.

Bring involved in UPC for as long as I have I would say there is more to UPC than meets the eye.

Time will tell



Dan’D


THIS IS THE SAME OLD, OLD, OLD, OLD ARGUMENT...apologetic and pathetic...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[RevBuddy]

S-l-o-w down on the coffee!!! :toofunny

Come on, NOW...uhhh, uhhh, I've only, only had 2, uhhh, 2 or 3, uhh, uhh, ok, I HAD 4 CUPS THIS MORNING!!!!

THIS THAT BAD???? It doesn't affect me, though....I'm still very CALMMM and in CONTROLLLLL on my faculties...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[ogatt]

When I go to the library, I go to the books of info and entertainment that I desire. I see the titles of books that I don't want to read. I check out only the books that I feel will meet my personal desire for righteousness. The internet is an info highway, kind of like a library. I use blocks so that is hard to get bad stuff. They tell me I could get past this block but I don't know how and don't want to know how. On the internet, I choose.

The technology of television is marvelous. But, its system of access is much different than the computer screen. I control the programming of what I view with a computer screen. When one turns on a TV it controls the programming. I know that it is not all bad. But everyone (outside of UPC'ers who want tv) agree that its major function is hollywood style entertainment. Television programming for the most part is anti everything the Bible is for.

This is my brief explanation. I think you will agree that I have some valid points for my personal non use of tv. I am not posting in an holier than thou attitude. Neither am I angry. I feel that the UPC ban on tv did way more good than harm and the reverse of the ban will do way more harm than good. I am not against tv technology but will not go for its programming.

If you rip my statements apart please don't do it in the childish ridiculous fashion that so many use. Please try to have real grown-up arguments of why you think tv is good for you. God bless.


i agree with you except for one thing. We have no business going to librarys.
the books with those tempting titles almost got me last time.

my mind sees images when i read..er i mean used to read those books.

its bad enough in your mind but at least you can hide it better. You cant on a tv or video screen.
thats why i dont allow tv video or cell phones that have miving pictures.

we still use bag phones here.

i sat a sunday school teacher down the other day for 1 year. she was using a flannel graph board and was teaching a lesson about the red sea crossing and actually moved the picture of moses across the board like he was walking.

thats how it all starts!!

one thing tho. If that former saint of mine would have been sneaking off to watch 'as the stomach turns" on tv instead of being on the internet and walking thru the electronic library,
she might have not runned off with a shoe salesman from mobile.

[Sister Alvear]

Well the maling list was not stolen most have the manuels that contain addresses...I do know someone else that sent letters that is not UPC and not for the WWF..so whereever there is addresses people will use them...
I think most of the men in the WWF are good godly men however their missionary program will in time give them and others lots of headaches unless there is a real understanding.
If evangelizing the world is the goal we should be very careful that we do not hinder trying to prove a point. Souls are very precious.
I have watched over the years it is not always doctrine that people support they usually support friends. I have always been amazed at some hard core churches and who they support on the field.

I have nothing against either group and wish them the best and hope we all can see past cards and personal goals...

[R.D. Foster]

i agree with you except for one thing. We have no business going to librarys.
the books with those tempting titles almost got me last time.

Ridiculously childish argument



its bad enough in your mind but at least you can hide it better. You cant on a tv or video screen.
thats why i dont allow tv video or cell phones that have miving pictures.

we still use bag phones here.

I wish you could use reasoning here instead of WEAK sarcasm.
i sat a sunday school teacher down the other day for 1 year. she was using a flannel graph board and was teaching a lesson about the red sea crossing and actually moved the picture of moses across the board like he was walking. Cute, but no substance


one thing tho. If that former saint of mine would have been sneaking off to watch 'as the stomach turns" on tv instead of being on the internet and walking thru the electronic library,
she might have not runned off with a shoe salesman from mobile.

Are you implying RN should have stayed out of bathrooms? Copycat crime is much more prevalent.

How about some mature thoughts here Oagtt.

[lilanastasia]

The addresses were not stolen; however, they were used under false pretenses. They were purchased for a specific mailout, and obviously used for something else. That is how they do it in Church Administration. Districts/churches are able to purchase mailing labels of pastors or ministers; however, they have to fill out a form and have it signed by their District Superintendent.

As a matter of fact, because this happened, Church Administration at HQ has suspended all inquiries for mailing labels outside of the building. So sad...so very sad.

[Fireside]

Renda...it's a joke, ok...just a joke... in this particular form of humor, the actual word, "genes," is replaced by a homophone - the word, "jeans." This would serve to reinforce the writer's main point of his post - in this case, the use of the word, "jeans," seems to indicate a lack of understanding or knowledge. Jeans being a "down home" type of apparel...well, now you see???

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Homophone?

You mean one of those little snazzy flip phones with a lavender cover?

[RevBuddy]

Homophone?

You mean one of those little snazzy flip phones with a lavender cover?

Hey, Coonskinner!!!! How, in the world, are you????

No, I wasn't talking about a flip phone...just a word that sounds like another word, BUT is spelled differently and has a completely different meaning....

...BUT if you want a neat flip phone...try the WPFphone...it comes with free call tracing and optional wiretapping...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[Fireside]

I actually inherited my wife's Motorola Krazr when she upgraded to the Q.

But (and this is no joke) I have a camo cover on it.

[rgcraig]

I actually inherited my wife's Motorola Krazr when she upgraded to the Q.

But (and this is no joke) I have a camo cover on it.

LOL....and hopefully a silent ring for when you are hunting!

Can't see or hear it that way!!!! :happydance

[RevBuddy]

I actually inherited my wife's Motorola Krazr when she upgraded to the Q.

But (and this is no joke) I have a camo cover on it.

How do you know where it is???? :happydance :happydance

[Fireside]

How do you know where it is???? :happydance :happydance


All good hunters develop a sixth sense for stuff like that.

An atavistic feature programmed into our DNA from generations of those living close to nature, like Rousseau's noble savage concept.

[RevBuddy]

All good hunters develop a sixth sense for stuff like that.

An atavistic feature programmed into our DNA from generations of those living close to nature, like Rousseau's noble savage concept.

Ahhh, Yes...the noble savage... :stirpot

[Timmy]

How do you know where it is???? :happydance :happydance

Reminds me of the signs warning drivers of a "Hidden Driveway". I always wonder, how will I know when I've passed it? :lol

[Fireside]

Ahhh, Yes...the noble savage... :stirpot


Actually, I prefer Schopenhauer to the Frenchman.

[dizzyde]

The foundation of the UPCI has been altered. There are many UPC churches allowing thing to creep into the churches that would not had been allowed 10 – 20 years ago. It is not just with a few. In many many UPC churches the majority of the saints have a TV. If you get TV on your computer that is wrong also.

Our people should look different inside and out. Because we are different.

Bring involved in UPC for as long as I have I would say there is more to UPC than meets the eye.

Time will tell

Dan’D

Well, once again I am responding to Dan'D. I really don't want you to think I am picking on you, but no one else picked up on this so far, and I really feel like it needs to be asked.

You do understand that if you have a computer with an internet connection, you DO have access to TV shows. Go to any of the major networks websites and you can watch full episodes right on your computer. You don't have to. But you can.

The main point that I really want to ask you is, do you understand that within the next 5 years, the television and the computer will be completely integrated. You will not be able to purchase a computer that is not in fact also a television. You will of course be able to buy older computers for a while, but eventually, if you want to buy a computer, you will have to also be purchasing a TV.

I really hope that you will answer this, because I have never heard anyone who is a "ultra conservative" answer this question, what will you do when that day arrives?

[stmatthew]

The addresses were not stolen; however, they were used under false pretenses. They were purchased for a specific mailout, and obviously used for something else. That is how they do it in Church Administration. Districts/churches are able to purchase mailing labels of pastors or ministers; however, they have to fill out a form and have it signed by their District Superintendent.

As a matter of fact, because this happened, Church Administration at HQ has suspended all inquiries for mailing labels outside of the building. So sad...so very sad.

Question for anyone that cares....


Is it normal practice for churches to get address lists and use them throughout the year for other mailouts besides the initial purchased reason, or is the WPF getting the foul, because they are the only ones that would do such a low-down dirty thing??

[dizzyde]

Question for anyone that cares....


Is it normal practice for churches to get address lists and use them throughout the year for other mail outs besides the initial purchased reason, or is the WPF getting the foul, because they are the only ones that would do such a low-down dirty thing??

I work for our church office, anytime we do a district mailing, including the Bishops Christmas card list we go through the district office to get labels.

I can't answer for national mailings, I don't think we have ever done a nation wide mail out.

[stmatthew]

I work for our church office, anytime we do a district mailing, including the Bishops Christmas card list we go through the district office to get labels.

I can't answer for national mailings, I don't think we have ever done a nation wide mail out.

So is what HQ sends out actual labels, or just a list?

[dizzyde]

So is what HQ sends out actual labels, or just a list?

I can't answer that, being as I've never done it, perhaps someone else could chime in.

I do know that there is apparently concern over the issue, because I was just on the UPCI website yesterday looking up a church for someone, and they have made some security changes.

[lilanastasia]

Question for anyone that cares....


Is it normal practice for churches to get address lists and use them throughout the year for other mailouts besides the initial purchased reason, or is the WPF getting the foul, because they are the only ones that would do such a low-down dirty thing??



Ha Ha...I think WPF is taking the brunt of it because of how they did it...:stirpot

[lilanastasia]

So is what HQ sends out actual labels, or just a list?


They will do both, depending on what you request. They will send actual labels or an excel spreadsheet. But when HQ found out that WPF had sent a letter using the mailing labels that came from here, that's when it all hit the fan...

[rgcraig]

They will do both, depending on what you request. They will send actual labels or an excel spreadsheet. But when HQ found out that WPF had sent a letter using the mailing labels that came from here, that's when it all hit the fan...

Amazing that some wanted to deny this really happened. :girlytantrum

[Mr. Steinway]

They will do both, depending on what you request. They will send actual labels or an excel spreadsheet. But when HQ found out that WPF had sent a letter using the mailing labels that came from here, that's when it all hit the fan...

It appears the UPCI generously gave out mailing lists and labels to the districts and preachers because they were under the assumption that the mailings would be in the general best interests of the organization.

The WPF mailing was the first, that I'm aware of, that used the labels in a way that was NOT in the best interest of the UPCI.

It looks like they are changing their policy on mailing labels in the future because of this violation of trust. This is sad! A generous policy came back to bite them!

[Felicity]

Homophone?

You mean one of those little snazzy flip phones with a lavender cover?:toofunny

[Dan'D]

Well, once again I am responding to Dan'D. I really don't want you to think I am picking on you, but no one else picked up on this so far, and I really feel like it needs to be asked.

You do understand that if you have a computer with an internet connection, you DO have access to TV shows. Go to any of the major networks websites and you can watch full episodes right on your computer. You don't have to. But you can.

The main point that I really want to ask you is, do you understand that within the next 5 years, the television and the computer will be completely integrated. You will not be able to purchase a computer that is not in fact also a television. You will of course be able to buy older computers for a while, but eventually, if you want to buy a computer, you will have to also be purchasing a TV.

I really hope that you will answer this, because I have never heard anyone who is a "ultra conservative" answer this question, what will you do when that day arrives?

As there was with computers, there are filters and software that helps you eliminate the stuff you don’t want to come up on your computer. There will be in due time, someone will come up something similar to filter out TV.

I do realize there are thing on TV that is not bad but I don’t want my kids going thru a 55 gallon drum of dog poop to find that one piece of candy that is still wrapped on the very bottom. Any way you look at it they would stink time they got to the bottom.

Dan’D

[Mr. Steinway]

As there was with computers, there are filters and software that helps you eliminate the stuff you don’t want to come up on your computer. There will be in due time, someone will come up something similar to filter out TV.

I do realize there are thing on TV that is not bad but I don’t want my kids going thru a 55 gallon drum of dog poop to find that one piece of candy that is still wrapped on the very bottom. Any way you look at it they would stink time they got to the bottom.

Dan’D
Bro.D,

New TVs have a built-in ability to block any unwanted TV program according to it's rating from the TV Parental Guidelines Sysytem.

The TV Parental Guidelines system was first proposed on December 19, 1996 by the Congress, the television industry and the FCC, and went into effect by January 1, 1997 on most major broadcast and cable networks in response to public concerns of increasingly explicit sexual content, graphic violence and strong profanity in television programs. It was established as a voluntary-participation system, with ratings to be determined by the individually-participating broadcast and cable networks. It was specifically designed to be used with the V-chip, which was mandated to be built into all television sets manufactured since 2000, but the guidelines themselves have no legal force.

The system does not apply to news or sports programming, or commercials. An E/I will be shown during the entirety of some TV-Y shows.

The first 3 ratings are used for kids' shows.

TV-Y (Suitable for all ages.)
The themes and content in programs issued this rating are specifically aimed at a young audience, mainly those ages 2-6. These programs are not expected to frighten or upset young children. Examples of programs issued this rating include The Huggabug Club, Rugrats, Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, Wow Wow Wubbzy, Poopster Sheep, Go Baby, The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and Barney And Friends.
TV-Y7 (Unsuitable for children under 7)
These shows may be suitable for all, but may not be appropriate for children under the age of 7. This rating may include mild language, mild violence, and little or none sexual content. Examples include Ed, Edd, n' Eddy, Codename: Kids Next Door, Kappa Mikey, Zoey 101, Digimon, and The Fairly Oddparents. SpongeBob Squarepants was originally rated TV-Y. Then, it was rated TV-Y7.
TV-Y7-FV (May not be suitable for children under 7; contains fantasy violence)
Programs issued this rating contain fantasy violence that may be more intense than other programs in the same category. Pucca and Gargoyles are often given this rating. Other programs issued this rating include: Avatar: The Last Airbender, Chaotic, Sonic X, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. Pokemon was originally TV-Y when it was shown on Kids WB, but when it switched to Cartoon Network, it was rated TV-Y7-FV.
TV-G (General audience)
Programs issued this rating are deemed appropriate for general audiences, however content in these programs are not always specifically intended towards children. Examples of programs issued this rating include The Price Is Right, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, earlier episodes of American Idol, religious programming, documentaries, Dexter's Laboratory, Full House, and early episodes of The Simpsons. Many programs on the Disney Channel use the G rating instead of the Y7 rating as the Disney Channel aims toward a family audience.
TV-PG (Unsuitable for young children)
This rating signifies that the program is unsuitable for younger children without the guidance of a parent. Some game shows are rated TV-PG, including Deal or No Deal, The Power of 10, 1 vs. 100, Family Feud (current episodes) and Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader, mainly for their suggestive dialog. Most reality shows are rated TV-PG, including Supernanny, Wife Swap, Kid Nation, and American Idol, for their suggestive dialog or coarse language. Sitcoms such as Everybody Loves Raymond, The Steve Harvey Show, and Seinfeld also usually will carry a TV-PG rating. Danny Phantom was originally rated TV-Y7-FV. When season 4 was aired, it was rated TV-PG. Also some unamericanized anime sometimes receives this rating such as Princess Tutu, Naruto and Kodocha. Some feature films originally rated PG-13 or R are edited for network or basic cable and are rated TV-PG. Some shows may skip over from TV-PG to TV-14 between episodes, such as House or 30 Rock, in some rare instances when switching networks as well. The rating may be accompanied by one or more of the following subratings:
V for moderate violence
S for mild sexual situations
L for mild coarse language
D for suggestive dialogue (mature themes)
TV-14 (Unsuitable for children under 14)
Programs issued the TV-14 rating are usually unsuitable for children under the age of 14 without the guidance of a parent or guardian. This rating may be accompanied by any of the following subratings:
V for intense violence
S for moderate sexual situations
L for coarse language
D for highly suggestive dialogue
Many programs that air after 9:00 pm are rated TV-14 with some exceptions, including Bones and Prison Break which are on at 8:00 pm, as well as The Tonight Show and Saturday Night Live, as well as many prime-time dramas and some sitcoms such as Family Guy and American Dad. Also, many crime dramas carry the TV-14 rating, such as the Law & Order franchise, Prison Break, and some episodes of The Simpsons. Much of Comedy Central's shows such as most Chapelle's Show episodes, The Sarah Silverman Program and Mind of Mencia also carry this rating. Many daytime soap operas such as Guiding Light, and As The World Turns, and wrestling shows such as WWE Raw and ECW on Sci-Fi have this rating as well. Certain PG-13 or R rated feature films are rated TV-14 when edited for network or basic cable. Many programs on Adult Swim get a TV-14 such as Bleach, Shin Chan, Death Note, and InuYasha. Others alternate between TV-14 and TV-MA, such as Happy Tree Friends, Robot Chicken, Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd GIG and Blood+.
Often award ceremonies (such as the Academy Awards), concerts and some specials will be rated TV-14. This rating has rated the most shows, with over 200 shows rated TV-14 in history.
TV-MA (intended for mature audiences ages 17 and older; formerly TV-M until 1998)
This program is not intended for and may not be suitable for children under the age of 17 (which is considered the last year of childhood). The program may contain extreme graphic violence, strong profanity, overt explicit sexual dialogue, nudity and/or strong sexual content. South Park frequently carries a TV-MA rating, with the syndicated episodes receiving a TV-14 rating, as well as original programming on HBO and Showtime and some of the shows on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim such as Moral Orel, The Boondocks, Metalocalypse, and Lucy, the Daughter of the Devil. The film Schindler's List was the first network TV program to display this rating whereas the pilot episode of the CBS police drama Brooklyn South was the first network TV show to display the rating.
This rating may be accompanied by any of the following subratings:
V for extreme graphic violence
S for explicit sexual situations
L for strong coarse language
The D sub-rating is not used for TV-MA. When TV-MA was still "TV-M" the D sub-rating was actually used.
The implications of these ratings, particularly the TV-MA rating, vary greatly depending on the situation. For example, South Park, which airs on Comedy Central in prime time, generally contained bleeped language even though it carries the TV-MA rating. Yet certain other TV-MA programs on Comedy Central (including the late-night "Secret Stash" airings of films such as South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut, Kevin Smith titles and other programs) appear to have no restrictions on language. This largely depends on the wishes of the shows' sponsors.

[Fireside]

:toofunny

I thought that was pretty good too. :)

[rgcraig]

As there was with computers, there are filters and software that helps you eliminate the stuff you don’t want to come up on your computer. There will be in due time, someone will come up something similar to filter out TV.

I do realize there are thing on TV that is not bad but I don’t want my kids going thru a 55 gallon drum of dog poop to find that one piece of candy that is still wrapped on the very bottom. Any way you look at it they would stink time they got to the bottom.

Dan’D

Hello!!! This is already out there for television - has been!

[pelathais]

...

i sat a sunday school teacher down the other day for 1 year. she was using a flannel graph board and was teaching a lesson about the red sea crossing and actually moved the picture of moses across the board like he was walking.

thats how it all starts!!

one thing tho. If that former saint of mine would have been sneaking off to watch 'as the stomach turns" on tv instead of being on the internet and walking thru the electronic library,
she might have not runned off with a shoe salesman from mobile.
Excellent points ogatt. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Rev]

Excellent points ogatt. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

AAAAAmen :toofunny

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:

[Dan'D]

Bro.D,

New TVs have a built-in ability to block any unwanted TV program according to it's rating from the TV Parental Guidelines Sysytem.

The TV Parental Guidelines system was first proposed on December 19, 1996 by the Congress, the television industry and the FCC, and went into effect by January 1, 1997 on most major broadcast and cable networks in response to public concerns of increasingly explicit sexual content, graphic violence and strong profanity in television programs. It was established as a voluntary-participation system, with ratings to be determined by the individually-participating broadcast and cable networks. It was specifically designed to be used with the V-chip, which was mandated to be built into all television sets manufactured since 2000, but the guidelines themselves have no legal force.

The system does not apply to news or sports programming, or commercials. An E/I will be shown during the entirety of some TV-Y shows.

The first 3 ratings are used for kids' shows.

TV-Y (Suitable for all ages.)
The themes and content in programs issued this rating are specifically aimed at a young audience, mainly those ages 2-6. These programs are not expected to frighten or upset young children. Examples of programs issued this rating include The Huggabug Club, Rugrats, Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, Wow Wow Wubbzy, Poopster Sheep, Go Baby, The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and Barney And Friends.
TV-Y7 (Unsuitable for children under 7)
These shows may be suitable for all, but may not be appropriate for children under the age of 7. This rating may include mild language, mild violence, and little or none sexual content. Examples include Ed, Edd, n' Eddy, Codename: Kids Next Door, Kappa Mikey, Zoey 101, Digimon, and The Fairly Oddparents. SpongeBob Squarepants was originally rated TV-Y. Then, it was rated TV-Y7.
TV-Y7-FV (May not be suitable for children under 7; contains fantasy violence)
Programs issued this rating contain fantasy violence that may be more intense than other programs in the same category. Pucca and Gargoyles are often given this rating. Other programs issued this rating include: Avatar: The Last Airbender, Chaotic, Sonic X, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. Pokemon was originally TV-Y when it was shown on Kids WB, but when it switched to Cartoon Network, it was rated TV-Y7-FV.
TV-G (General audience)
Programs issued this rating are deemed appropriate for general audiences, however content in these programs are not always specifically intended towards children. Examples of programs issued this rating include The Price Is Right, Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, earlier episodes of American Idol, religious programming, documentaries, Dexter's Laboratory, Full House, and early episodes of The Simpsons. Many programs on the Disney Channel use the G rating instead of the Y7 rating as the Disney Channel aims toward a family audience.
TV-PG (Unsuitable for young children)
This rating signifies that the program is unsuitable for younger children without the guidance of a parent. Some game shows are rated TV-PG, including Deal or No Deal, The Power of 10, 1 vs. 100, Family Feud (current episodes) and Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader, mainly for their suggestive dialog. Most reality shows are rated TV-PG, including Supernanny, Wife Swap, Kid Nation, and American Idol, for their suggestive dialog or coarse language. Sitcoms such as Everybody Loves Raymond, The Steve Harvey Show, and Seinfeld also usually will carry a TV-PG rating. Danny Phantom was originally rated TV-Y7-FV. When season 4 was aired, it was rated TV-PG. Also some unamericanized anime sometimes receives this rating such as Princess Tutu, Naruto and Kodocha. Some feature films originally rated PG-13 or R are edited for network or basic cable and are rated TV-PG. Some shows may skip over from TV-PG to TV-14 between episodes, such as House or 30 Rock, in some rare instances when switching networks as well. The rating may be accompanied by one or more of the following subratings:
V for moderate violence
S for mild sexual situations
L for mild coarse language
D for suggestive dialogue (mature themes)
TV-14 (Unsuitable for children under 14)
Programs issued the TV-14 rating are usually unsuitable for children under the age of 14 without the guidance of a parent or guardian. This rating may be accompanied by any of the following subratings:
V for intense violence
S for moderate sexual situations
L for coarse language
D for highly suggestive dialogue
Many programs that air after 9:00 pm are rated TV-14 with some exceptions, including Bones and Prison Break which are on at 8:00 pm, as well as The Tonight Show and Saturday Night Live, as well as many prime-time dramas and some sitcoms such as Family Guy and American Dad. Also, many crime dramas carry the TV-14 rating, such as the Law & Order franchise, Prison Break, and some episodes of The Simpsons. Much of Comedy Central's shows such as most Chapelle's Show episodes, The Sarah Silverman Program and Mind of Mencia also carry this rating. Many daytime soap operas such as Guiding Light, and As The World Turns, and wrestling shows such as WWE Raw and ECW on Sci-Fi have this rating as well. Certain PG-13 or R rated feature films are rated TV-14 when edited for network or basic cable. Many programs on Adult Swim get a TV-14 such as Bleach, Shin Chan, Death Note, and InuYasha. Others alternate between TV-14 and TV-MA, such as Happy Tree Friends, Robot Chicken, Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd GIG and Blood+.
Often award ceremonies (such as the Academy Awards), concerts and some specials will be rated TV-14. This rating has rated the most shows, with over 200 shows rated TV-14 in history.
TV-MA (intended for mature audiences ages 17 and older; formerly TV-M until 1998)
This program is not intended for and may not be suitable for children under the age of 17 (which is considered the last year of childhood). The program may contain extreme graphic violence, strong profanity, overt explicit sexual dialogue, nudity and/or strong sexual content. South Park frequently carries a TV-MA rating, with the syndicated episodes receiving a TV-14 rating, as well as original programming on HBO and Showtime and some of the shows on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim such as Moral Orel, The Boondocks, Metalocalypse, and Lucy, the Daughter of the Devil. The film Schindler's List was the first network TV program to display this rating whereas the pilot episode of the CBS police drama Brooklyn South was the first network TV show to display the rating.
This rating may be accompanied by any of the following subratings:
V for extreme graphic violence
S for explicit sexual situations
L for strong coarse language
The D sub-rating is not used for TV-MA. When TV-MA was still "TV-M" the D sub-rating was actually used.
The implications of these ratings, particularly the TV-MA rating, vary greatly depending on the situation. For example, South Park, which airs on Comedy Central in prime time, generally contained bleeped language even though it carries the TV-MA rating. Yet certain other TV-MA programs on Comedy Central (including the late-night "Secret Stash" airings of films such as South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut, Kevin Smith titles and other programs) appear to have no restrictions on language. This largely depends on the wishes of the shows' sponsors.

You missed my point or I was not clear. there needs to be a filter to filter TV completly out. as far as my concern. I don't want that in my house. how something is Rating don't mean a hill of beans in this day and time. My family spirituality is not up for grabs.

I want a church that feel a simular way.

Dan'D

[StMark]

Dan D,

I just bought a new phone that just came out (motoQ). it was quite a pricey phone w/all the bells and whistles . anyways, It shows CNN and Fox news and other TV channels. it came with the package(internet).
I understand that this will be a common feature on all phones in the future. what will be your stand on this?

[George]

Dan D,

I just bought a new phone that just came out (motoQ). it was quite a pricey phone w/all the bells and whistles . anyways, It shows CNN and Fox news and other TV channels. it came with the package(internet).
I understand that this will be a common feature on all phones in the future. what will be your stand on this?

How are liking the phone so far? I am thinking about upgrading.

[StMark]

How are liking the phone so far? I am thinking about upgrading.

I really like it. it was a little tricky at first but i think i'm getting the hang of it. it looks like a blackberry but much better. it's made by motorola.

I got a good package.unlimited text messages, internet,email and IM

[Fireside]

That Q looks like a homophone.

[tv1a]

1. It's hard to respect people riddled with inconsistency.
2. God didn't call this bunch to form a new group. Ego, pride and self centeredness were the motivation.
3. Parallels between racism and the wpf are so obvious, but it is a touchy subject.
4. I've seen saints with the same attitude and spirit. Definitely not a spirit of God.

Did we not see this coming. In the last few years you have seen more UPC churches go Independent because of standards.

The church I was raised in was UPC but the pastor was prepared in case he felt the UPC was going the wrong direction they would pull out.

No one can deny that UPC as a general has been going more and more liberal. Regardless of your personal feeling there are a lot of pastor and ministers that feel over the years the UPC left them. A lot of things are being allowed in some churches that no one would ever believe 10 – 15 years ago.

For most, being an independent church has so many problems not being in an organization. There people has no connection between other churches for large meetings, Camp Meeting, Youth Camp and general fellowship etc.

Did the Tulsa group have the right way to pull out and start another organization / Fellowship. No mater how they would go about it, they would had been criticized. It took a number of men who people highly respected to start the new fellowship. Not just respected in there own area but thru out UPC. They knew that there would be people calling them names and criticized them for what they did. Yet they did it anyway. I can not answer for all the men but the ones I know did not do it personal reasons.

This has been in the planning stages for a very some time and weather or not, NW won an election in California would not have any effect on the decision on starting the WPF.
Since they disagree with the direction UPC is going at what point do they say enough is enough. Which was where the Resolution on TV comes in. An then have enough support of pastors and ministers to do something of this magnitude.

The Tulsa 6 I’m sure was in contact with 100’s maybe 1000’s of pastor before they started WPF. If you feel they should not had contacted the other UPC ministers. Don’t we have freedom of speech within the ranks of UPC if you feel something is wrong.

Remember since this group of pastors are so well know I’m sure most if not all of the contacted pastors and minister were on first name basics.

Bro Haney does not answer to God for me, My pastor will have to. Bro. Haney was voted in to run an organization not run the church I attend. If my pastor did not do what he felt God was directing him to do, he would be derelict of his calling and again he would answer to God for that.

Whether you agree or disagree

I believe the so called Tulsa 6 felt God was directing them this way for some time. Who are we to tell them God was not directing them.


Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?

[Truthseeker]

I feel that men that started WPF had the right, if the organization that you have been a part of wants to leave its foundation and turn to the world, then you don't need to support it... I respect and honor the men that started this new fellowship, I praise God that there is still those that hold to the old paths...
I still attend a UPC, in some ways keeps the old paths and others its allowing more than it did even 5 yrs ago, gotta catch up with the time..
We need an organization that will hold to the old paths, not modernize everything...
We need Revival from GOd............

"old paths" can be subjective term.

[ogatt]

Dan D,

I just bought a new phone that just came out (motoQ). it was quite a pricey phone w/all the bells and whistles . anyways, It shows CNN and Fox news and other TV channels. it came with the package(internet).
I understand that this will be a common feature on all phones in the future. what will be your stand on this?


well you have just fell off the wagon. It aint enough to sneak off to walmart and watch tv or watch it at shoneys and i sure hope you dont have it in your home. I dont know any church people that do.

well anyway you are just an example of how much people love to sin. carryin a tv with you is a new low in holiness. I know you dont carry that devils eye in the churchhouse.

young man, send me your address and i will ship you a bag phone with an extension cord.
It only shows numbers and nothing scrolls so it is safe exceptin for gossipin.

tv is just the start.
all wordly magazines must go including outdoor life, time, national geo graphic(for obvious reasons) and usa today life section. I throw that section away before it comes in my house.

i strated lookin at what was coming on tv then i remember that if a man looks at a tv ad and thinks about it he has comitted tv watchin in his heart. straight from the book!!!!

i also cancelled my perscription to the magazine called underwater basket weavin.

i look at the water then i think about beaches then i start thinking about er........oh well you get the picture.

Git everything out of your house. Rules are what makes us live right.

as for that feller talking about computers and tv becoming one, it wont happen here.

i still have a 486 machine and i am typing this in DOS. I almost got convicted over the flashhing dot.

i did have a dream the other nite. A voice from above spoke and said "take your 486 up on the mountain and install Vista on it. I said "it wont fit on a 486"
the the voice said "i will provide the ram"

[Dan'D]

Dan D,

I just bought a new phone that just came out (motoQ). it was quite a pricey phone w/all the bells and whistles . anyways, It shows CNN and Fox news and other TV channels. it came with the package(internet).
I understand that this will be a common feature on all phones in the future. what will be your stand on this?

I would enjoy the news. But I think you must keep a black line.
Dan'D

[Dan'D]

1. It's hard to respect people riddled with inconsistency.
2. God didn't call this bunch to form a new group. were the motivation.
3. Parallels between racism and the wpf are so obvious, but it is a touchy subject.
4. I've seen saints with the same attitude and spirit. Definitely not a spirit of God.


Did God tell he did not lead these men to do this.

If he did not then Ego, pride and self centeredness has come into play

Dan'D

[Nahum]

Did God tell he did not lead these men to do this.

If he did not then Ego, pride and self centeredness has come into play

Dan'D

Dan'D, could you please visit the thread I started in your name? I asked a couple of questions that I would really love your input on.

[Whole Hearted]

God Bless WPF

[Mr. Steinway]

God Bless WPF
God bless the UPCI too! :D

[Thinking]

God bless us, everyone.

[Barb]

God bless us, everyone.

Thank you, and amen!!

[grace_seeker]

God bless us, everyone.

Ok Tiny Tim...Christmas is over. :happydance

[Nahum]

I only want God to bless the people I like.







All three of them.

[Barb]

I only want God to bless the people I like.







All three of them.
LOL!!

[Timmy]

Ok Tiny Tim...Christmas is over. :happydance

I just got inspired to find a new avatar! :lol

[Monkeyman]

I only want God to bless the people I like.







All three of them.
Thanks bro, as one of the three, I appreciate that!:happydance

[lilanastasia]

1. It's hard to respect people riddled with inconsistency.
2. God didn't call this bunch to form a new group. Ego, pride and self centeredness were the motivation.
3. Parallels between racism and the wpf are so obvious, but it is a touchy subject.
4. I've seen saints with the same attitude and spirit. Definitely not a spirit of God.


I agree 100%; however, this is my first huge transition that has affected the UPCI. I wasn't in church when ALJC or PAW separated, or even alive for that matter.

[Fireside]

It must be nice to be able to read the hearts and motivations of men you don't even know. :)

[lilanastasia]

It must be nice to be able to read the hearts and motivations of men you don't even know. :)


It's actually an art!!! :largehalo

I've been around HQ for some time now, which is why I have commented the way I have...

[Fireside]

It's actually an art!!! :largehalo

I've been around HQ for some time now, which is why I have commented the way I have...


Hanging around HQ makes you privy to the opinions of officials about men; it doesn't make you any more able to read the hearts of men.

[dizzyde]

Hanging around HQ makes you privy to the opinions of officials about men; it doesn't make you any more able to read the hearts of men.

Sometimes the officials who have had to deal with the men get to know their hearts pretty well by their behavior.

That is not to say they would share that opinion with anyone just hanging around.

[lilanastasia]

Hanging around HQ makes you privy to the opinions of officials about men; it doesn't make you any more able to read the hearts of men.

Ummm, ok?!?!?

[Truthseeker]

I agree 100%; however, this is my first huge transition that has affected the UPCI. I wasn't in church when ALJC or PAW separated, or even alive for that matter.

What do you mean by PAW seperated?

[lilanastasia]

What do you mean by PAW seperated?


When the ALJC was created...when the PAW was created.

[StMark]

PAW was founded in 1913. After Azusa died down, the races all went their own way.
the upc was formed in 1945

[Truthseeker]

When the ALJC was created...when the PAW was created.

PAW was the first oneness org that was made of both wihte and black. Many Whtes had issues with it due to eventual mixed marriages and later went on to part of the forming of the UPC. White elders didn't want their licenses signed by black bishops.

[pelathais]

PAW was the first oneness org that was made of both wihte and black. Many Whtes had issues with it due to eventual mixed marriages and later went on to part of the forming of the UPC. White elders didn't want their licenses signed by black bishops.
The only real documented problems involved the scheduling of conferences in the South. The old Jim Crow laws prohibited black ministers from staying at "whites only" hotels.

There were no doubt other issues on the minds of different individuals, but the real pressure to seperate along color lines really came from outside of the Pentecostal movement. When they did seperate, it was generally seen as a victory for "outside" forces and was a disappointment to those within the movement.

Most of the "anti-inter-racial marriage" sentiments came along later; about the same time that other new ideas were being introduced.

[tv1a]

Back to the original question.

The tulsa six has the right to tango in whatever manner they decide. The rest of us have the right to our own opinions based on the information provided.

If these men were members of a congregation who initiated a church split, we would be all over them as agents of satan. Since they are preachers, they get a free pass when they cause division and discord. The same devils used to call dissention and discord in local church splits are the same devils used to cause a rift in the organization. Scripture has plenty to say about their attitudes. None of it good...

[Felicity]

I got a revelation tonight! Yeah, I really did. ;) :)

I got a revelation that people need to leave this WPF situation alone and go about their own business. What's been done is done and nothing can be undone now. People will continue to do what they want to do and you get to do what you want to do.

Castigating and rock throwing, judging and criticizing won't change a thing. God is the Righteous Judge. His judgments are perfect because His knowledge and understanding is perfect. Our is imperfect, biased and jaundiced by politics, mindsets, inaccurate perceptions, and bias.

Divisions have always and will continue to take place within the body of Christ. And again, it depends on our own ideas of what is right and wrong on whether or not the division is good or bad.

Those of us all involved in ministry need to just go about the business of doing what God's will is for us personally and specifically and avoid getting caught up in whatever issue is going at any particular time.

James 4 (NIV)

1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.

3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you–who are you to judge your neighbor?

[Truly Blessed]

As I was driving to the Superstore earlier this evening I was thinking about how often folks ask someone "What church do you attend?" IMHO, the question should not be "Where do you attend church", but, "Are you serving the Lord with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength?"

I find so many people overly concerned about what church or organization one belongs to, rather than how someone is actually doing spiritually. One tends to do best spiritually when gathering with people who are like-minded and therefore a high level of unity and singleness of purpose.

God bless the WPF and all who have their spiritual needs met by being associated with them! God's blessing isn't confined to any one organization. I would feel out of place there, so I thank God for providing a place where I do feel at "home"!

[Fireside]

As I was driving to the Superstore earlier this evening I was thinking about how often folks ask someone "What church do you attend?" IMHO, the question should not be "Where do you attend church", but, "Are you serving the Lord with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength?"

I find so many people overly concerned about what church or organization one belongs to, rather than how someone is actually doing spiritually. One tends to do best spiritually when gathering with people who are like-minded and therefore a high level of unity and singleness of purpose.

God bless the WPF and all who have their spiritual needs met by being associated with them! God's blessing isn't confined to any one organization. I would feel out of place there, so I thank God for providing a place where I do feel at "home"!


Common sense just spoke here, folks.

Way too much emphasis on organizational identity.

[pelathais]

Common sense just spoke here, folks.

Way too much emphasis on organizational identity.
What church did you learn that in? http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fireside]

What church did you learn that in? http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I learned that a lot of folks place too much emphasis on organizational identity.

I don't know that it was any particular church that taught me that.

[Monkeyman]

What church did you learn that in? http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Probably Brother Ogatt's!!!!!

[CC1]

Common sense just spoke here, folks.

Way too much emphasis on organizational identity.

You are obviously just a rebellious person unable to submit to authority.:happydance*


*Or too cheap to pay dues.:toofunny

[Dan'D]

Back to the original question.

The tulsa six has the right to tango in whatever manner they decide. The rest of us have the right to our own opinions based on the information provided.

If these men were members of a congregation who initiated a church split, we would be all over them as agents of satan. Since they are preachers, they get a free pass when they cause division and discord. The same devils used to call dissention and discord in local church splits are the same devils used to cause a rift in the organization. Scripture has plenty to say about their attitudes. None of it good...

Pastors answer to God not to the leadership of an organization.

A Pastor will answer to God if he did not follow his will.

Dan'D

Dan’D

[Truthseeker]

The only real documented problems involved the scheduling of conferences in the South. The old Jim Crow laws prohibited black ministers from staying at "whites only" hotels.

There were no doubt other issues on the minds of different individuals, but the real pressure to seperate along color lines really came from outside of the Pentecostal movement. When they did seperate, it was generally seen as a victory for "outside" forces and was a disappointment to those within the movement.

Most of the "anti-inter-racial marriage" sentiments came along later; about the same time that other new ideas were being introduced.

There were some outright racist WITHIN the pentecostal movement. I heard testimony from one who was alive during that era, he sat under Haywood.

It was a within issue.

[Sunni]

The only real documented problems involved the scheduling of conferences in the South. The old Jim Crow laws prohibited black ministers from staying at "whites only" hotels.

There were no doubt other issues on the minds of different individuals, but the real pressure to seperate along color lines really came from outside of the Pentecostal movement. When they did seperate, it was generally seen as a victory for "outside" forces and was a disappointment to those within the movement.

Most of the "anti-inter-racial marriage" sentiments came along later; about the same time that other new ideas were being introduced.

I have to agree with Pelathais here. I studied the racial issues in depth in Bible College for a research paper (where we had access to a lot of historical material not readily available to many) at IBC- even spoke with some in Elder GT Haywood's church. Jim Crow lines made national meetings very difficult, along with various other problems relative to race issues in the nation.

[lilanastasia]

Hey, a little off the subject, but who on here had the quote about an ignorant or stupid man that couldn't rise to understanding because all of his understanding was subject to his thinking...or something like that. I love that quote and forgot to write it down and now I can't find who's it was...a little help..

[onegod1]

:hug3 At the outset of this writing, I find it somewhat important to say that a church organization, be it UPCI, ALJC, WPF, COOLJC, PAW, etc., has, AND NEVER WILL save anyone! It is faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to the Gospel that saves us (see Ephesians 2:8-9)! I happen to be an individual that was pastored by Brother Wilson at one time -- but also an individual that is very fond of Brother & Sister Haney! Can you just imagine? Oh my! And they're all related, too! Sister Haney is Sister Wilson's blood sister (and also Sister McGruder)! Brother Wilson originally comes from the church and Bible college (known at that time as Western Apostolic Bible College) that Brother Haney pastored (now CLC). I love the United Pentecostal Church International. One of the things I have loved the most was its stance on personal holiness.

Unfortunately, I've been finding that the UPCI is starting to NOT feel like "home" and maybe it IS time to move on to the WPF. I have always fought for this Apostolic Pentecostal faith and its godly lifestyle from a family and friends that didn't understand -- but I'm tired of contending for it by others that are supposedly Apostolic and lovers of holiness.

So -- If you want to go around with a diluted Gospel message, whore around with the world, and look worse than hustlers and street-walkers, feel free. Go ahead. The children of God are moving over to the WPF.

[Jermyn Davidson]

:hug3 At the outset of this writing, I find it somewhat important to say that a church organization, be it UPCI, ALJC, WPF, COOLJC, PAW, etc., has, AND NEVER WILL save anyone! It is faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to the Gospel that saves us (see Ephesians 2:8-9)! I happen to be an individual that was pastored by Brother Wilson at one time -- but also an individual that is very fond of Brother & Sister Haney! Can you just imagine? Oh my! And they're all related, too! Sister Haney is Sister Wilson's blood sister (and also Sister McGruder)! Brother Wilson originally comes from the church and Bible college (known at that time as Western Apostolic Bible College) that Brother Haney pastored (now CLC). I love the United Pentecostal Church International. One of the things I have loved the most was its stance on personal holiness.

Unfortunately, I've been finding that the UPCI is starting to NOT feel like "home" and maybe it IS time to move on to the WPF. I have always fought for this Apostolic Pentecostal faith and its godly lifestyle from a family and friends that didn't understand -- but I'm tired of contending for it by others that are supposedly Apostolic and lovers of holiness.

So -- If you want to go around with a diluted Gospel message, whore around with the world, and look worse than hustlers and street-walkers, feel free. Go ahead. The children of God are moving over to the WPF.

so where are you going?

[ItalianApo]

Ok, is anybody else sick & tired of the silly backbiting happening in our Apostolic/pentecostal churches? I'm sure the people who say all this trash about good men of God (UPC, WPF...whatever!) on these forums wouldn't say it in person to them. This is such a horrible spirit floating around our churches trying to stir up division.

Must we always criticize someone else if they do something we don't agree with? The men who decided to pull out of the UPC had every right, just like those who don't agree with them have every right to continue with what they think is the right path for them. Let's quit stirring up controversy & drama...the devil is sitting back laughing because the more we tear each other down, the less he has to do to destroy us! The time spent talking about each other is time wasted when we could have been reaching the lost or praying for our families.

STOP THE GOSSIP! :snapout GOD IS NOT PLEASED WITH IT!!!

This is a HUGE reason why backsliders don't want to come back to church! I know because my whole family is backslidden & i hear them say things like that all the time! You know they're going to be a BIG part of the end-time revival...the prodigals coming home.

On the diversity thing-it depends on where you live most of the time. If you're in a large city like i am, it's easy to have more than one race or ethnic group. But the rural, little town churches are going to have majority white congregations... that's just how it is. It has nothing to do with the churches "racial mindset". Fortunately we have a very diversified church. I hope i didn't come across as rude, but i hate to see our brothers & sisters tearing each other apart...it's sad & frustrating!

[ItalianApo]

I got a revelation tonight! Yeah, I really did. ;) :)

I got a revelation that people need to leave this WPF situation alone and go about their own business. What's been done is done and nothing can be undone now. People will continue to do what they want to do and you get to do what you want to do.

Castigating and rock throwing, judging and criticizing won't change a thing. God is the Righteous Judge. His judgments are perfect because His knowledge and understanding is perfect. Our is imperfect, biased and jaundiced by politics, mindsets, inaccurate perceptions, and bias.

Divisions have always and will continue to take place within the body of Christ. And again, it depends on our own ideas of what is right and wrong on whether or not the division is good or bad.

Those of us all involved in ministry need to just go about the business of doing what God's will is for us personally and specifically and avoid getting caught up in whatever issue is going at any particular time.

James 4 (NIV)

1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.

3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you–who are you to judge your neighbor?



Thank you! Finally another believer who thinks it's wrong to talk about one another...yay! :friend GBU

[tv1a]

Which comment should I address first?

The Children of God are moving to the WPF? The diluting of the message? The lack of holiness?

Your cheap shots are not only unfounded, but they have been proved inaccurate time and time again. You claim you love personal holiness. I haven't read one post where personal holiness was the issue. What I have read is sensible people want to put a stop to spiritual nazis confusing personal holiness for a subjective salvational standard.

WPF was established on lies and egos. Not somethine I would be proud associating with. There are more inconsistencies from the wpf than at a barak obama press conference. If you want to participate in the occultic practice of legalism you should feel at home in the wpf.



:hug3 At the outset of this writing, I find it somewhat important to say that a church organization, be it UPCI, ALJC, WPF, COOLJC, PAW, etc., has, AND NEVER WILL save anyone! It is faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to the Gospel that saves us (see Ephesians 2:8-9)! I happen to be an individual that was pastored by Brother Wilson at one time -- but also an individual that is very fond of Brother & Sister Haney! Can you just imagine? Oh my! And they're all related, too! Sister Haney is Sister Wilson's blood sister (and also Sister McGruder)! Brother Wilson originally comes from the church and Bible college (known at that time as Western Apostolic Bible College) that Brother Haney pastored (now CLC). I love the United Pentecostal Church International. One of the things I have loved the most was its stance on personal holiness.

Unfortunately, I've been finding that the UPCI is starting to NOT feel like "home" and maybe it IS time to move on to the WPF. I have always fought for this Apostolic Pentecostal faith and its godly lifestyle from a family and friends that didn't understand -- but I'm tired of contending for it by others that are supposedly Apostolic and lovers of holiness.

So -- If you want to go around with a diluted Gospel message, whore around with the world, and look worse than hustlers and street-walkers, feel free. Go ahead. The children of God are moving over to the WPF.

[TCSQ]

WPF was established on lies and egos. Not somethine I would be proud associating with. There are more inconsistencies from the wpf than at a barak obama press conference. If you want to participate in the occultic practice of legalism you should feel at home in the wpf.



Sounds like you've got it bad! GET OVER IT!

[Consapostolic1]

tv1a, why is that in most of the posts Ive read of yours, you always find some way to demean or degrade those that take a more conservative stand than you?

[Consapostolic1]

tv1a, maybe you have issues within yourself regarding conservatives that you need to take to God

[RevDWW]

So -- If you want to go around with a diluted Gospel message, whore around with the world, and look worse than hustlers and street-walkers, feel free. Go ahead. The children of God are moving over to the WPF.

Perhaps it is time for you to get up off your judgment seat and go. May God speed you on your journey. :waving

[RandyWayne]

So -- If you want to go around with a diluted Gospel message, whore around with the world, and look worse than hustlers and street-walkers, feel free. Go ahead. The children of God are moving over to the WPF.

LOL

Where to start. So many comments come to mind.....

The first is an image of "Hollywood Hogan" proclaiming the "future" is the NWO.

The second comes from the phrase "children of god" (with a small 'g') bunkering up in some complex waiting for orders from their self proclaimed leader.

And what IS the "diliuted" gospel message? Sleeve length, facial hair, and TV?
If everyone simply obeyed the Book of Paul, chapter 3, verse 14: "And thou shalt set no MOVING video image before thine eyes....", there would not be all this division!

[tv1a]

If you read the body of my post, and I alluded to it a few posts back the issue isn't about personal standards. I have a problem and God has a problem with those who blur the lines of personal convictions with corporate mandates for salvation. There is nothing wrong with conservatism. There is everything wrong with legalism. The bile of legalism smells in the nostrils of God.


tv1a, why is that in most of the posts Ive read of yours, you always find some way to demean or degrade those that take a more conservative stand than you?

[tv1a]

My issue is with legalism and the hucksters who have hijacked conservatism.

tv1a, maybe you have issues within yourself regarding conservatives that you need to take to God

[RevDWW]

LOL

Where to start. So many comments come to mind.....

The first is an image of "Hollywood Hogan" proclaiming the "future" is the NWO.

The second comes from the phrase "children of god" (with a small 'g') bunkering up in some complex waiting for orders from their self proclaimed leader.

And what IS the "diliuted" gospel message? Sleeve length, facial hair, and TV?
If everyone simply obeyed the Book of Paul, chapter 3, verse 14: "And thou shalt set no MOVING video image before thine eyes....", there would not be all this division!

That must be the NIV. I think the KVJ uses the phrase "image that moveth". Using the word "video" brings you into question..........:ursofunny

[tv1a]

Judging by some legalistic forums Legal Larry is a god. You better not touch the West Coast Mafia.

LOL

Where to start. So many comments come to mind.....

The first is an image of "Hollywood Hogan" proclaiming the "future" is the NWO.

The second comes from the phrase "children of god" (with a small 'g') bunkering up in some complex waiting for orders from their self proclaimed leader.

And what IS the "diliuted" gospel message? Sleeve length, facial hair, and TV?
If everyone simply obeyed the Book of Paul, chapter 3, verse 14: "And thou shalt set no MOVING video image before thine eyes....", there would not be all this division!

[tv1a]

I read that passage from the newly revised message addition.

That must be the NIV. I think the KVJ uses the phrase "image that moveth". Using the word "video" brings you into question..........:ursofunny

[Sister Alvear]

Create in me a pure heart oh Lord...

[tv1a]

We smash bp to pieces because of his flip to the spiritual trifecta. I think we should be just as hard on the legalists for not apply the same principle for the internet as they do for television. Me thinks they are more screwed up than bp.

[tv1a]

Con apostolic, this lady is an example of a conservative. She doesn't have a single legalistic bone in her body. the wpf could learn a lot from this lady.

Create in me a pure heart oh Lord...

[Sister Alvear]

I do not care to get involved with endless things that are often discussed on these kinds of threads...but reading about the video made me laugh at something that happened at a certain church.
Their stand was against video so they hid one in the lattice work if I am not mistaken and during the wedding they were filming someway it fell...well you can guess the rest...

[Sister Alvear]

We must pray to be transparent and kind to those we differ with...that is where real love is put to the test.

[RevDWW]

We must pray to be transparent and kind to those we differ with...that is where real love is put to the test.

Amen and Amen!!!!!

[Balanced]

Create in me a pure heart oh Lord...

Con apostolic, this lady is an example of a conservative. She doesn't have a single legalistic bone in her body. the wpf could learn a lot from this lady.


EDIT: We all could learn a lot from this lady.

[Sister Alvear]

It has always been a mystry how people can be so cruel. It is so unchrist-like.

[RevDWW]

It has always been a mystry how people can be so cruel. It is so unchrist-like.

What's even worse is when it's done in the name of Christ!


As the Word says "A soft answer turns away wrath".

Sis. A, I appreciate and applaud your sweet spirit and Christ like attitude!!!!! There are not many with as soft an answer as you!!!!!!!!!!!!

His continued blessings on you and yours!

[Consapostolic1]

Con apostolic, this lady is an example of a conservative. She doesn't have a single legalistic bone in her body. the wpf could learn a lot from this lady.

Do you have enough info about each member of the WPF to broad brush all of them as being legalistic?

[Consapostolic1]

tv1a, I'm done with this issue I was just stating what I had noticed in your post. It's done now. I will not further respond to you regarding the subject.

[RevDWW]

Do you have enough info about each member of the WPF to broad brush all of them as being legalistic?
I wish the Cons and Libs that weld these would show up at my house as I have several rooms to paint! :ursofunny

[tv1a]

I don't know if its still online or not but Larry Booker in opening remarks at the big shindig at The Rock was talking how a police officer in his church arrrested close to 30 sexual predators in one day, just by monitoring activity on the internet. Booker's response to this epidemic was to have more seminars to teach people how to use the internet. Booker was credited with the verbiage that leglists use to save face w/anti-television stance and pro internet stance.

Lies were spread by legalists throughout the television debate... One of the biggest lies was every church who went on television compromised doctrine. No retraction from the legalists when presented with the facts of dozens of churches. Kenneth Phillips and Promiseland comes to mind as one who proves that lie false. Through out Kentucky, and Tenessee there are tv preachers who preach acts 2:38 and even practice a conservative dress code.

Another lie floating around is the television issue would be the first of many other compromises. Again refer to the number of churches who still hold fast to the faith.

The leadership tried to say tv advertising is cost prohibited and ineffective. Statistics proved them wrong.

The biggest lie is the wpf is not an organization but a fellowship. If is walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, chances are it isn't a chicken.

Why anyone would want to follow leadership based on faulty unscriptural pretense is beyond my comprehension.

I just read a saying in my son's school planner which says if you can't convince them, confuse them. WPF leaders are sending mixed signals and the only ones following are the ones who don't ask questions. They are just looking to stay with the herd.

Do you have enough info about each member of the WPF to broad brush all of them as being legalistic?

[tv1a]

If the blind leads the blind they all will end up in the middle of the freeway.

tv1a, I'm done with this issue I was just stating what I had noticed in your post. It's done now. I will not further respond to you regarding the subject.

[Jeremy]

The word Liberal has a dirty sound to it because most of us associate it with things we disagree with in politics and religion. It really just means you are open minded and willing to go against tradition and orthodoxy. It can even mean specifically to be giving or generous. As used here, it is simply a general label to refer to people who do not take as strong of a stand on what many would call "standards". Apostolic "liberals" would still be radical conservatives in most other circles. lol.

[Dan'D]

Back to the original question.

The tulsa six has the right to tango in whatever manner they decide. The rest of us have the right to our own opinions based on the information provided.

If these men were members of a congregation who initiated a church split, we would be all over them as agents of satan. Since they are preachers, they get a free pass when they cause division and discord. The same devils used to call dissention and discord in local church splits are the same devils used to cause a rift in the organization. Scripture has plenty to say about their attitudes. None of it good...


If we feel the church we go to does not fulfill Gods purpose within us. Then we are only kidding ourselves and God expect us to have a back bone.

WE need to be striving toward the mark of the high calling not going down stream with the dead fish.

We answer to GOD not Man

Dan'D