Dan'D, How Do You Know the WWPF Was In the Works?

[Nahum]

Posted by Dan'D:
Did we not see this coming. In the last few years you have seen more UPC churches go Independent because of standards.

The church I was raised in was UPC but the pastor was prepared in case he felt the UPC was going the wrong direction they would pull out.

No one can deny that UPC as a general has been going more and more liberal. Regardless of your personal feeling there are a lot of pastor and ministers that feel over the years the UPC left them. A lot of things are being allowed in some churches that no one would ever believe 10 – 15 years ago.

For most, being an independent church has so many problems not being in an organization. There people has no connection between other churches for large meetings, Camp Meeting, Youth Camp and general fellowship etc.

Did the Tulsa group have the right way to pull out and start another organization / Fellowship. No mater how they would go about it, they would had been criticized. It took a number of men who people highly respected to start the new fellowship. Not just respected in there own area but thru out UPC. They knew that there would be people calling them names and criticized them for what they did. Yet they did it anyway. I can not answer for all the men but the ones I know did not do it personal reasons.

This has been in the planning stages for a very some time and weather or not, NW won an election in California would not have any effect on the decision on starting the WPF.
Since they disagree with the direction UPC is going at what point do they say enough is enough. Which was where the Resolution on TV comes in. An then have enough support of pastors and ministers to do something of this magnitude.

The Tulsa 6 I’m sure was in contact with 100’s maybe 1000’s of pastor before they started WPF. If you feel they should not had contacted the other UPC ministers. Don’t we have freedom of speech within the ranks of UPC if you feel something is wrong.

Remember since this group of pastors are so well know I’m sure most if not all of the contacted pastors and minister were on first name basics.

Bro Haney does not answer to God for me, My pastor will have to. Bro. Haney was voted in to run an organization not run the church I attend. If my pastor did not do what he felt God was directing him to do, he would be derelict of his calling and again he would answer to God for that.

Whether you agree or disagree

I believe the so called Tulsa 6 felt God was directing them this way for some time. Who are we to tell them God was not directing them.


Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?
.

[Nahum]

Very interesting Dan.

What proof do you have that the WWPF has been planned for a long time?

And, just how long is a long time?

When did they start planning it?

[Nahum]

Dan'D, I have been told by several prominent members of this board that the WWPF was not even thought of until after general conference.

Are you saying that it was in the works before then?

[Barb]

Very interesting Dan.

What proof do you have that thw WWPF has been planned for a long time?

And, just how long is a long time?

When did they start planning it?

PP, I can only speak from my realm of experience.

In the 33 years I have known Bishop W, he has talked of pulling out of the UPCI.

So, as far as the new org as we know it being planned...officials, agenda, location, etc., I do not know.

But I know the idea for separation has been a long standing one.

[Nahum]

PP, I can only speak from my realm of experience.

In the 33 years I have known Bishop W, he has talked of pulling out of the UPCI.

So, as far as the new org as we know it being planned...officials, agenda, location, etc., I do not know.

But I know the idea for separation has been a long standing one.

Yeah, I had heard that. I was just curious as to the context of Dan'D's remarks.

[Barb]

Yeah, I had heard that. I was just curious as to the context of Dan'D's remarks.

I know...I am curious, too.

[Kutless]

Yeah, I had heard that. I was just curious as to the context of Dan'D's remarks.curiosity killed the ****insert appropriate rank here****

[Mr. Steinway]

Why would a pastor that has been talking about leaving the UPC for years, run for the office of District Superintendant???

[Nahum]

curiosity killed the ****insert appropriate rank here****

:toofunny:happydance

It appears good ole Brother dan'D has no intention of answering the questions.

Oh well.

[Nahum]

Why would a pastor that has been talking about leaving the UPC for years, run for the office of District Superintendant???
Now that is a very, very good question.

[Barb]

Why would a pastor that has been talking about leaving the UPC for years, run for the office of District Superintendant???

Now that is a very, very good question.

Yes it is, one with which I do not have an answer.

How I wish did, for many things...many things do not sit well under a cursory glance.

Yet with all of my wondering he has my utmost respect.

[grace_seeker]

I am curious how many members NW lost from his church when he quit the UPC. I have heard about some leaving his church and going back to Stockton.....anybody know about this? Also, if this was in the planning stages for such a long time, why hadn't those members that left, left a long time ago?

[Barb]

I am curious how many members NW lost from his church when he quit the UPC. I have heard about some leaving his church and going back to Stockton.....anybody know about this? Also, if this was in the planning stages for such a long time, why hadn't those members that left, left a long time ago?

Well, IF this org had been in the planning stages before GC, my experience with Bishop is that the Saints at the Rock did not know.

It is just not something he would have spoken of from the pulpit...at least it wouldn't have been so in days gone by.

[RevBuddy]

Posted by Dan'D:

.

What does the WEATHER have to do with it...and there's no need to "shout" your message...

...we've heard you loud and clear... the fact is...

I disagree with you adamantly... no big deal, but as you have an opinion...

...so do others. Some of us see it very different than you...very different...

You can robe the Tulsa guys in flowery words and assign to them the most elegant justifications for their actions...

...and it won't change the facts:

1. They have every right to do what ever they wanted - right, wrong or indifferent!
2. They did leave the UPC FIRST, then form their fellowship, organization, church, loose association, whatever, BUT they didn't.
3. They used questionable MEANS to accomplish their ENDS...even these men can make mistakes in carrying out what they see as "good" intentions...

...and lastly,

4. Their failure to acknowledge the questionable actions only exacerbates the situation, and causes more questions.

As for me, I...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

[ogatt]

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" (2 Thes. 2: 3).

the upc has fallen away from standards and let tv come in
the wpf has fallen away from the upc
the AFAT orginization Apostolic Fear And Trembling has fell away to just a few faithfull.
our letter of afermation makes the upc's look like a sunday school picnic

I read somewheres where nehamiah was building a wall and the workers had one hand one the wall building and the other hand on the sword.

I got both hands on the sword!!!!!

the reason those churches down in LA are so big is that they dont have a sword in the hand.
its just outreach and reachin out and building. thats why there is so much heatherns in the church. Outreach!!!! we need to get rid of people.

If i took one hand off the sword my church would probably grow so much i would have to get indoor plumbing.

the wpf seems to be heading in the right direction. They finally got tired of people building with both hands, outreach and technology and said its time to put both hands on the sword.

after all all of the upc pastors are weak kneed comprimisers. I cant believe they waited this long
to get out.

the good ole days you could just kick people out that didnt line up. Thats why i started AFAT...

POWER. my letters dont get ignored and i know i can get elected because i voted myself in.
i dont need pph. i started my own publishing house.

a lexmark hooked up to my 486. i print all of the sunday school literature for my church.
my budget is low. 12 sheets of paper last week

[Fireside]

Why would a pastor that has been talking about leaving the UPC for years, run for the office of District Superintendant???


Maybe because he thought he could be more of an influence from that position, and have a better chance of stemming what he saw as the ever encroaching tide of what I will call non-productive change.

I don't see what the big mystery is.

[lilanastasia]

Why would a pastor that has been talking about leaving the UPC for years, run for the office of District Superintendant???

Ahhhh, now that is the question, my friends!!!!! It is my opinion, and after hearing some things around the "big office" that the ones who split were ones trying to get into office, but were continuely rejected, so they decided to take matters into their own hands - hence WWPF!!! :stirpot

[Dan'D]

Posted by Dan'D:

.

I hate to pop any bubbles but most of this is my Perception. I come from a family of ministers and I’ve herd things over the years. Several minister have started there own “ conferences” and most have been well attended. I know for a fact there has been a couple of meeting in Texas (I believe) over the last couple of years. My brother and other family and friends attended.

My belief is that they were hoping for the best and planning for the worse. Which would be the right direction to go in if you were involved in something you felt was going in the wrong direction. I fill they probably spoke of drawing a line in the sand. They needed to decide at what point do you say enough is enough. One comment I did here was this was the straw that broke the camels back. Referring to the resolution on advertising on TV. Drawing a line in the sand and then moving it when things don’t go your way does nothing.

The actual nuts and bolts of forming WPF was probably started directly related to the vote at GC. Because the line was crossed.

The Idea that this was done because NW did not win an election is ludicrous. Again you must do what you can if you fill something is going in the wrong direction. But when that fails you must follow your perception toward the direction God is calling you. If you did not, you would not be an honest man within yourself.

I fell these men felt like they had no other choice and still stay honest with God.

This is all my perception.

Dan’D

[Fireside]

The general idea of doing something as an alternative to the UPC some day has certainly been discussed for years.

But I do not believe the actual "nuts and bolts" of the WPF were hammered out until after Tampa.