HELP...What's a Church To Do?

[lilanastasia]

Has anyone ever been in the following situation:

• Church is UPC and affiliated...

• Pastor is currently 78 and suffering from dementia...

• Church does not have an Assistant Pastor, by choice from the pastor...

• Church does have a board, but ultimately does not have any "power"...

• Pastor's son has approached the pastor about his condition and the
concerns with the church - pastor rebuked the son and told him not to
disrespect him again...

• Church has lost of couple of families, but for the most part, everyone is
still there. Saints want to be loyal, but are getting edging and don't
know where to turn...

• Because of the pastor's dementia, there are times when speakers,
service leaders, specials, etc. are double booked...

• Pastor's wife supports the pastor, even though it is most likely in the
worst interests of the church body...

• Pastor continually chides and "puts down" the church body, even after
a tremendous worship service or an outpouring of the Spirit...

That is not all that happens, but it paints a good picture.

Help...looking for some suggestions on how to keep up morale, where to go from here, anything...

THANKS!

[Elizabeth]

Are there any ministers in the church? Perhaps one of them could contact the district for you.

IDK if I am the best one on this but here are my feelings.

I feel for the older minister, perhaps he still thinks he is relatively the same and doesn't realize how his condition is affecting his church.

Aging isn't an easy thing, especially when you have some that are in their 80's but still remain somewhat sharp mentally.

I am sure at some point though he will have no choice but to find a replacement as in those cases seldom get better but only get worse as time goes by.

[NW Pastor]

Has anyone ever been in the following situation:

• Church is UPC and affiliated...

• Pastor is currently 78 and suffering from dementia...

• Church does not have an Assistant Pastor, by choice from the pastor...

• Church does have a board, but ultimately does not have any "power"...

• Pastor's son has approached the pastor about his condition and the
concerns with the church - pastor rebuked the son and told him not to
disrespect him again...

• Church has lost of couple of families, but for the most part, everyone is
still there. Saints want to be loyal, but are getting edging and don't
know where to turn...

• Because of the pastor's dementia, there are times when speakers,
service leaders, specials, etc. are double booked...

• Pastor's wife supports the pastor, even though it is most likely in the
worst interests of the church body...

• Pastor continually chides and "puts down" the church body, even after
a tremendous worship service or an outpouring of the Spirit...

That is not all that happens, but it paints a good picture.

Help...looking for some suggestions on how to keep up morale, where to go from here, anything...

THANKS!


Are finances an issue? Financial security is lacking for many aging preachers. Perhaps the church could offer some sort of retirement benefit for the pastor if they can afford it, then bring in someone new.

It will be easier now, before everything truly falls apart and there is little left.

[Felicity]

Pray!

[Sister Alvear]

I agree pray...

[lilanastasia]

Pray!

Prayer and fasting have continued now for two years, that is definitely covered!

[lilanastasia]

Are finances an issue? Financial security is lacking for many aging preachers. Perhaps the church could offer some sort of retirement benefit for the pastor if they can afford it, then bring in someone new.

It will be easier now, before everything truly falls apart and there is little left.

Finances are not an issue; the church has plenty in savings to afford a retirement plan for the pastor. I do not know if this has been brought to the Church Board table...

[lilanastasia]

Are there any ministers in the church? Perhaps one of them could contact the district for you.

IDK if I am the best one on this but here are my feelings.

I feel for the older minister, perhaps he still thinks he is relatively the same and doesn't realize how his condition is affecting his church.

Aging isn't an easy thing, especially when you have some that are in their 80's but still remain somewhat sharp mentally.

I am sure at some point though he will have no choice but to find a replacement as in those cases seldom get better but only get worse as time goes by.

There are several ministers (7) in the church body; not sure if they have went to the District Board. We do know that 3 annoymous emails went to UPCI HQ wanting to get rid of the pastor.

[Felicity]

Prayer and fasting have continued now for two years, that is definitely covered!
Hang in then. Either that or look for another church to attend. Apparently God's answer to your prayers is "wait".

[NW Pastor]

Finances are not an issue; the church has plenty in savings to afford a retirement plan for the pastor. I do not know if this has been brought to the Church Board table...

Rather than a letter here, or a complaint there (anonymous nonetheless) will not profit concerted action is required. The board and church needs to present a united front for the benefit of both the elderly pastor and the church. He could be approached with a retirement benefit, much thanks, and an outpouring of love for his decades of service.

The pastor's son could provide needed weight along with the uniform action of the church. The presence of the District Superintendent or Presbyter could help. And continue to pray.

[Blubayou]

I do not think the district will have much teeth in this matter. Churches and ministers are pretty autonomous and unless there is documented immorality or financial fraud the district cannot do anything about your situation. I am not a minister but this has been my experience in the past.

[Joelel]

The church board needs to contact the District Board and tell them the problem and they want a new pastor.If that don't get you a new one,start meeting some place else.Call me we will get a new building and I'll be your pastor.

[bishoph]

The church board needs to contact the District Board and tell them the problem and they want a new pastor.If that don't get you a new one,start meeting some place else.Call me we will get a new building and I'll be your pastor.

I certainly hope this was TIC

[bethola]

This poor elderly gentleman is just trying to retain control over SOMETHING in his life. He, no doubt, at times really DOES realize that he is fast losing his mental capacity and has a need to retain control of SOMETHING...and that something is the church that he has pastored for so long.

I think his son, should first approach him and try to get him to understand that if he loves the church....he'll want the best for them. Beyond that, it may be time to get the Presbyter involved, if at all possible.

[Monkeyman]

I certainly hope this was TICDon't worry, he only writes when he gets his Day Pass.

[anapko]

Been there, done that...twice! By the Grace of God, I pray not to see the third time! If you are in that situation, get out, it will not get better!

[Joelel]

Don't worry, he only writes when he gets his Day Pass.

Don't feel bad because I get more passes then you.

[MissBrattified]

Senility and dementia aren't exactly the same thing. Has the dementia been diagnosed by a doctor?

Older people can get grumpy and forgetful, but that isn't "dementia."

The best thing is for his son to respectfully intervene--perhaps the elder could be persuaded to allow the son to be pastor, and he could take on the "Senior Pastor" role? That way he is still (very) important, but the son bears the bulk of responsibility.

[jrLA]

The best thing is to contact the District Board or your Presbyter and explain the situation. Didn't you say the church was affiliated? That is your best bet. Your presbyter will know how to proceed and will offer guidance.

[lilanastasia]

Senility and dementia aren't exactly the same thing. Has the dementia been diagnosed by a doctor?

Older people can get grumpy and forgetful, but that isn't "dementia."

The best thing is for his son to respectfully intervene--perhaps the elder could be persuaded to allow the son to be pastor, and he could take on the "Senior Pastor" role? That way he is still (very) important, but the son bears the bulk of responsibility.

It has been diagnosed by a doctor, but he refuses to take the medicine (old school mentality I suppose).

The pastor is the type of pastor that will not allow "dual" control, and the son knows this and will not take the church. Believe me...we would have wanted that.

[MissBrattified]

It has been diagnosed by a doctor, but he refuses to take the medicine (old school mentality I suppose).

The pastor is the type of pastor that will not allow "dual" control, and the son knows this and will not take the church. Believe me...we would have wanted that.

Then the church board and/or the son needs to contact the district board, if the local presbyter won't do anything. Letters from saints (especially anonymous emails) probably won't accomplish anything. There will have to be names and faces attached. And lengthy, factual explanations with evidence to back up what you're saying.

Keep praying, and encourage others to show love and respect for the older minister, regardless of what he says or does. There is no way to get around hurting his feelings, so its best to make sure everything you and other saints do is completely upright, respectful, kind & considerate. I don't even know the family, and it hurts me to think of hurting the pastor (and his wife) in this way.

[commonsense]

No great words of wisdom, but have had relatives that were diagnosed with dementia. It's a tough call. They can be combative and unpredictable, even though that was not their true personality. Usually need medical care!

[MissBrattified]

No great words of wisdom, but have had relatives that were diagnosed with dementia. It's a tough call. They can be combative and unpredictable, even though that was not their true personality. Usually need medical care!

Me too. :(

[Elizabeth]

This is really a sad situation, it's really hard to make any kind of judgment call without knowing these folks, it's impossible to know what the man could be thinking and feeling.

As stated above it has to be handled with kit gloves and a whole lot of love. My bet his family will play a big part of what happens, patiences is indeed a virtue.

[CC1]

Pray!

I agree.

I also agree that if the church is affiliated that the District should be contacted although upon doing that the person or persons doing so should be prepared to leave the church if need be since many times preachers stick together and the District might just think these saints are just disgruntled troublemakers.

[lilanastasia]

I agree.

I also agree that if the church is affiliated that the District should be contacted although upon doing that the person or persons doing so should be prepared to leave the church if need be since many times preachers stick together and the District might just think these saints are just disgruntled troublemakers.

This is true...it's possible that the church board members may have this mentality that no one will "touch" the situation because of who the pastor is and because of the ties he has with many, many ministers.

We just keep praying and hoping that his wife will talk him into retiring but it doesn't seem like that's in the near future. She seems as stubborn as him...ha!

[Bro B]

Has anyone ever been in the following situation:

• Church is UPC and affiliated...

• Pastor is currently 78 and suffering from dementia...

• Church does not have an Assistant Pastor, by choice from the pastor...

• Church does have a board, but ultimately does not have any "power"...

• Pastor's son has approached the pastor about his condition and the
concerns with the church - pastor rebuked the son and told him not to
disrespect him again...

• Church has lost of couple of families, but for the most part, everyone is
still there. Saints want to be loyal, but are getting edging and don't
know where to turn...

• Because of the pastor's dementia, there are times when speakers,
service leaders, specials, etc. are double booked...

• Pastor's wife supports the pastor, even though it is most likely in the
worst interests of the church body...

• Pastor continually chides and "puts down" the church body, even after
a tremendous worship service or an outpouring of the Spirit...

That is not all that happens, but it paints a good picture.

Help...looking for some suggestions on how to keep up morale, where to go from here, anything...

THANKS!


Find a new church.

[The Fat Cat]

Call the presbyter, that's WHY the church is affliated.

[Jehoram]

If this is who I think it is, I can say that this church wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the efforts of this pastor to rescue it about twenty years ago. He stepped in at a very dark time.

How soon we forget!

I will continue to pray for your situation.

[deltaguitar]

This is typical. We went through the same thing less than a year ago. Result. Church of 200 split right down the middle when the elder pastor's family decided that things hadn't been done right.

[Ron Turner]

I'll tell you what I wouldn't do....and that's get advice from strangers on the internet.

Felicity had the best advice.....Pray.

By the way....I disagree with the saying beside your pic.

[Ron Turner]

Find a new church.

This is what I mean...bad advice.

Really bad advice.

[Jehoram]

Horrible advice.

[Elizabeth]

I have to agree with the top post, it's not such a good idea to get your advice on such a serious matter over the internet.

But the sad thing is, you can not force someone to stay at a church they are dissatisfied with, no matter how much they pray about it--(tried that one myself and still felt the same way about where I was)if their mind is made up or they feel to leave, the feeling may still remain there.


I am not in favor of telling people to leave their church though, they have to make that decision themselves.

[lilanastasia]

I'll tell you what I wouldn't do....and that's get advice from strangers on the internet.

Felicity had the best advice.....Pray.

By the way....I disagree with the saying beside your pic.

The saying is more an attempt at humor than serious...(for the record...)

I definitely don't plan on leaving...it would be insane if left now after all we've been through. I'm just getting a feeling if others went through the same situation...how to get peace, serenity, etc...

I think leaving should be the utmost and very, very, very last resort...I really ain't about "bailing out". I saw that on a T-Shirt one time, and thought it was hilarious...

[SOUNWORTHY]

Don't leave the church, stick together and try to approach the strongest members of the board and have them contact the presbyter for a meeting with church body. I was in a church (not UPCI)that the pastor had a problem (not moral)and his wife was about to leave him. The board did contact headquarters.and it all worked out, the pastor and I are best of friends again (I was one of the board members when this took place.) and he and his wife are now on the mission field. He did stay with the church for about five years after that. Don't give up and don't leave.

[KarenJo]

There needs to be an intervention…..When this type of illness is present, stress only makes the condition worse.

If the Pastor won't take the medicine then have the son talk to his mother and have her slip it to him. (He isn't thinking clearly and won't until he’s medicated.) You can’t reason with someone in this condition. If the wife isn't on board then a different plan needs to be put in place. The son needs to go to the Dr. with his parents and have the Dr. tell them in the son’s presence that the medication is NEEDED…

You can talk to someone all you want but in his present condition, he doesn’t comprehend that anything is wrong.

PRAYER is good! But you can pray 24/7 but you need to put some steps to those prayers.

The Bible says that the STEPS of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord. He can’t order your steps if you are not moving!

[Praxeas]

Have you considered a mass insurrection? I believe torches and pitchforks in the middle of the night might work...duh just consider me a stranger....

Seriously though...that is a tough situation. Why is the board powerless?

[StillStanding]

This situation is similar to what happened to my father.

He had a stroke, and afterwards his personality changes and he couldn't concentrate for long periods of time. Dad tried to carry on as usual as pastor, but things were getting worse. He could'nt preach a sermon without forgetting his train of thought several times.

Everyone loved him, so they tried hard to be loyal. After about 3 or 4 months, some families were talking about leaving.

Finally, my BIL, who was assistant pastor, and the church board met with dad to talk with him about retiring. It was agreed that dad would retire in two months, and the church would pay him a small retirement income.

It worked out because dad was approached by men that he trusted, and he listened!

The church gave dad a huge retirement service/party for being the founding pastor and twenty years of faithful service.

Your case is a little different because it APPEARS that your pastor doesn't trust anyone (not even his son) to be thinking about HIS best interest!

FIRST LEVEL - Pray that God will work out what is best for the church.

SECOND LEVEL - Maybe the church board/trustees and his own family members can approach him with a retirement offer. Maybe give him the title of Pastor Emeritus.

THIRD LEVEL - If the church members, board members and family members are in complete agreement that something needs to be done, contact the district board.
This is a situation where being affiliated really can be helpful for a church!

[lilanastasia]

This situation is similar to what happened to my father.

He had a stroke, and afterwards his personality changes and he couldn't concentrate for long periods of time. Dad tried to carry on as usual as pastor, but things were getting worse. He could'nt preach a sermon without forgetting his train of thought several times.

Everyone loved him, so they tried hard to be loyal. After about 3 or 4 months, some families were talking about leaving.

Finally, my BIL, who was assistant pastor, and the church board met with dad to talk with him about retiring. It was agreed that dad would retire in two months, and the church would pay him a small retirement income.

It worked out because dad was approached by men that he trusted, and he listened!

The church gave dad a huge retirement service/party for being the founding pastor and twenty years of faithful service.

Your case is a little different because it APPEARS that your pastor doesn't trust anyone (not even his son) to be thinking about HIS best interest!

FIRST LEVEL - Pray that God will work out what is best for the church.

SECOND LEVEL - Maybe the church board/trustees and his own family members can approach him with a retirement offer. Maybe give him the title of Pastor Emeritus.

THIRD LEVEL - If the church members, board members and family members are in complete agreement that something needs to be done, contact the district board.
This is a situation where being affiliated really can be helpful for a church!



Thanks...very helpful ideas. I think, ultimately, the true frustration is with the pastor's wife..she doesn't want to let go either so she makes like pastor is doing okay. I think we have all made up in our minds that pastor is sick and he doesn't even realize what he's doing or saying; but somehow we've got to get through to his wife.

Hmmmmm...

[CC1]

Thanks...very helpful ideas. I think, ultimately, the true frustration is with the pastor's wife..she doesn't want to let go either so she makes like pastor is doing okay. I think we have all made up in our minds that pastor is sick and he doesn't even realize what he's doing or saying; but somehow we've got to get through to his wife.

Hmmmmm...

Reminds me of the old saying "Denial is not a river in Egypt!"

[lilanastasia]

Reminds me of the old saying "Denial is not a river in Egypt!"


HA!! :thumbsup Good one!! Yeah, denial is a killer sometimes...

[OP_Carl]

Thanks...very helpful ideas. I think, ultimately, the true frustration is with the pastor's wife..she doesn't want to let go either so she makes like pastor is doing okay. I think we have all made up in our minds that pastor is sick and he doesn't even realize what he's doing or saying; but somehow we've got to get through to his wife.

Hmmmmm...

Have you considered gathering a group of the more responsible and well-respected folks in the church, meeting to put your thoughts down on paper, and then conducting a loving intervention, led by the son, with the pastor's wife? It sounds to me like she's living in a fantasy land, or else is becoming paranoid. She needs to know:

1) Something is wrong and everybody knows it
2) Continued inaction is going to have consequences the opposite of what she and the pastor want.
3) Nobody is out to get them, but rather are quite appreciative, and that is why you all are trying to prevent their final years from being full of heartache.

Of course, I don't know any details, any of the people, and no more than half the story, if not less.

[Sister Alvear]

This is really a very sad story ...both sides...

[Blubayou]

I think you have gotten some sound advice here. I am sympathetic to you situation and understand why you have asked for advice here. As a saint in a church, you are sometimes isolated when there are issues with the pastor. Remember the UPCI is an alliance of ministers- run by ministers. In this type of situation, without documented malfeasance or immorality, the district board, may be powerless or choose not to use its power. I do think that some of the suggestions given here could be used to try to intervene in the situation.

[lilanastasia]

Have you considered gathering a group of the more responsible and well-respected folks in the church, meeting to put your thoughts down on paper, and then conducting a loving intervention, led by the son, with the pastor's wife? It sounds to me like she's living in a fantasy land, or else is becoming paranoid. She needs to know:

1) Something is wrong and everybody knows it
2) Continued inaction is going to have consequences the opposite of what she and the pastor want.
3) Nobody is out to get them, but rather are quite appreciative, and that is why you all are trying to prevent their final years from being full of heartache.

Of course, I don't know any details, any of the people, and no more than half the story, if not less.


We have such a difference of opinons in our church. We have very influential people in both positions - those wanting to declare mutiny or at least approach the situation of getting some help/possible retirement, and others who think that any comment towards a pastor is disrespectful, so it's hard to find that medium where positivity can be useful.

[onewayman]

this is so sad.........and is happening in a lot of churches

[pelathais]

Has anyone ever been in the following situation:

• Church is UPC and affiliated...

• Pastor is currently 78 and suffering from dementia...

• Church does not have an Assistant Pastor, by choice from the pastor...

• Church does have a board, but ultimately does not have any "power"...

• Pastor's son has approached the pastor about his condition and the
concerns with the church - pastor rebuked the son and told him not to
disrespect him again...

• Church has lost of couple of families, but for the most part, everyone is
still there. Saints want to be loyal, but are getting edging and don't
know where to turn...

• Because of the pastor's dementia, there are times when speakers,
service leaders, specials, etc. are double booked...

• Pastor's wife supports the pastor, even though it is most likely in the
worst interests of the church body...

• Pastor continually chides and "puts down" the church body, even after
a tremendous worship service or an outpouring of the Spirit...

That is not all that happens, but it paints a good picture.

Help...looking for some suggestions on how to keep up morale, where to go from here, anything...

THANKS!
Wow! You mean we go to the same church? Small world.

But seriously, it's gonna be painful. The "double bookings" cracks me up. Anybody been excommunicated and then asked why they "dropped out?" I rode that yo-yo for years. I saw Moonies brought in to preach and another time the service was turned over to some guy who was driving by in his car.

I don't mean to be hurtful... I think you and me could probably laugh and cry a lot together. This is one area where I really do blame the UPC leadership. There is often no recourse or any way to get around some of these things.

An elder can get stuck on "go" and think that anything that says "stop" or even just "slow down" is of the devil. They fought that impulse their entire life and they don't know what else to do.

From my own experience: the son who approached him will be reconciled, then discarded angrily and repeatedly. The two families who left will count their blessings and be joined by others in an assembly of hushed silence and knowing glances.

If you'd like, I can send you some newspaper clippings and television news clips of what it's like when it really gets bad. (No kidding... people here know me). I feel badly for you. Not just because of the elder, but for all of the dreams that are on the verge of breaking right now.

... wait a minute... doing some math... I think we know each other! No, can't be. But it hurts. It still hurts.

[Jekyll]

If this situation wasn't so tragic, some of the responses on this thread would be comically moronic. Leave and find a new church??? Leave?? Are you kidding me? Typicall answers from people with no loyalty or grit.

The very fact that this church is still in existence and has not thrown this man out on his ear shows that this is an awesome church. They have honored this man by not being hasty with knee-jerk reactions. The LAST thing this church needs now is to be fragmented and filled with disunity. Props to you and the congregation for keeping your heads.

It sounds like this church just needs good advice and direction. Things will or may be coming to a head and probably should be dealt with in some manner. Indecision will be just as destructive as informally wresting power away from this pastor. The authority in his life should be the ones who help determine the course of events this church will have to face. Pray and fast some more.

God bless

[B_Kendrick]

Does the church have a board of elders? Such as other ministers? What about the bi-laws? Do they have a loophole for something like this? One other thing, prayer is the answer to a lot of problems! If sincere, God will not let that prayer go unnoticed!

[CAD/JPY]

There have been some good suggestions, but let me add one that I don't know if it has been brought up.

I would recommend you consult with a close friend of the Pastor. There must be someone out there he is close to, or really respects, or a best friend. Explain to that person the issues, and let them know you care... and are really concerned about this Pastor destroying his life's work.

Hey, for that matter... private message me his name and phone number.... I will call him personally. I would hate to see a church destroyed over a mental illness....