Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

[Dan'D]

The Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

The WPF is keeping with the idea that we should keep our Holiness Standards we have kept over the years. Which I agree, Yes things change but do we?
Dan'D

[RandyWayne]

Which "Old Ways" do we keep? The "Old Ways" which started in the 1940's and 50's? Or the "Old Ways" that started 2000 years ago?

For most people the "Old Ways" officially start at the time of their oldest known relative such as grandparents or great grand parents and in addition are heavily influenced by the town and neighborhood they grew up in.

[simplyme]

The Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

The WPF is keeping with the idea that we should keep our Holiness Standards we have kept over the years. Which I agree, Yes things change but do we?
Dan'D

Yes pls explain, is it mainly to do with dress standards? If so I agree, also with abstaining from questionable practices but then again that is a private or personal conviction(s)., today I don't believe its a good thing to force people to 100percent comply with everything unless its bible based, and/or GOD conviction I consider both to be present in my decision., meaning I don't have to have direct 100% blk/white written Bible IF I have GOD conviction ., the HG is there for a reason. ;)

[simplyme]

Or could it be the REALLY old ways, lol

Lets be glad that whatever 'standards' we might have that people either do or don't comply with, none of us are thrown in jail or prosecuted over it (persecuted? maybe ) such as the Islamics do to their people over their religious practices, got this from an article on MSN?

The Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice runs the fearsome religious police, which is charged with enforcing Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic lifestyle. Its members patrol public places to make sure women are covered and not wearing make up, the sexes don't mingle, shops close five times a day for Muslim prayers and men go to the mosque and worship.

Although I kind of do like the attention to detail. :D
I like that there is priority given to worshipping their god., our 'standards' aren't even close to what is required ( and enforced ) there yet some people still gotta complain here. *sigh*
BUT, a "commission for the promotion of VIRTUE and the prevention of VICE"??? LOL! Good grief, IF that were to be had here, what an outrage and riot would ensue.

Be grateful American citizens! ;) This is a blessed free country.

[Sister Alvear]

Let me see what has changed...
The Hebrew men wore beards...
The Hebrew men wore robes with blue fringes
The Hebrew men wore sandals...

John dresses in camel’s hair...ate locust and wild honey...

Jesus took a whip to the church of His day...

Paul made a Nazarite vow...


Well to name a few standards...

[Sister Alvear]

my husband just told me my sense of humor would get us in trouble...Please don´t blame him...ha...

[Mr. Steinway]

Let me see what has changed...
The Hebrew men wore beards...
The Hebrew men wore robes with blue fringes
The Hebrew men wore sandals...

John dresses in camel’s hair...ate locust and wild honey...

Jesus took a whip to the church of His day...

Paul made a Nazarite vow...


Well to name a few standards...
Sis Alvear, you are a blessing to this forum! :)

As far as "old ways holiness standards", it seems that in every generation you will have some maintainers of the previous generation's standards, and mostly others that will redefine the standards (because of technology and culture changes) for their generation.

The problem comes when after a generation redefines the standards, they think it is perfect and the end all of end alls. They don't give the future generations any leeway to make adjustments.

So..the following generations either become maintainers, or become rebellious and redefine the standards again for their generation. And on and on it goes! :)

[Timmy]

The oldest standard:

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Uh, not counting the fig leaves, of course. That was substandard. And before the fig leaves, well, I guess that was actually the first standard!

[OP_Carl]

The Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

The WPF is keeping with the idea that we should keep our Holiness Standards we have kept over the years. Which I agree, Yes things change but do we?
Dan'D

Could you be a little more specific, please?

Generally speaking I will answer yes. However, some things that can be lumped into the "old way" are extrabiblical preferences only. Keeping these types of standards is counterproductive.

I'm for an outward standard of holiness that is supported by scripture, such as ladies not cutting their hair, men and women alike dressing modestly, and avoiding worldly amusements.

I'm even MORE for an inward standard of holiness, since there is MUCH MORE bible regarding this, and stressing its importance. Without a right relationship, clothesline pentecostalism is just another cult.

[Mrs. LPW]

In my view, it depends on what "standards" being referred to. Some have their basis in creation... and some are both scriptural and common sense... and some are man made.

Unfortunately some are being tossed because they are considered man made when they really were God made.

:)

[Mrs. LPW]

Could you be a little more specific, please?

Generally speaking I will answer yes. Some things that can be lumped into the "old way" are extrabiblical preferences only.

I'm for an outward standard of holiness that is supported by scripture, such as ladies not cutting their hair, men and women alike dressing modestly, and avoiding worldly amusements.

I'm even MORE for an inward standard of holiness, since there is MUCH MORE bible regarding this, and stressing its importance. Without a right relationship, clothesline pentecostalism is just another cult.

Amen.

[Timmy]

The oldest standard:

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Uh, not counting the fig leaves, of course. That was substandard. And before the fig leaves, well, I guess that was actually the first standard!

Come to think of it, before the fig leaves, before the fall, before sin, that's when Adam and Ever were at their holiest! Hmmm. :lol

[Mrs. LPW]

Come to think of it, before the fig leaves, before the fall, before sin, that's when Adam and Ever were at their holiest! Hmmm. :lol

I think it's safe to assume we want the covering God gave Adam and Eve after the fall! :)

[Timmy]

I think it's safe to assume we want the covering God gave Adam and Eve after the fall! :)

OK, leather it is! :lol

[Mrs. LPW]

OK, leather it is! :lol

picky picky picky








:gaga

[AJBC]

I think it's safe to assume we want the covering God gave Adam and Eve after the fall! :)



OOOhhh ya, it's safe to assume!!!!......:gaga

[Mrs. LPW]

The 'world' wants the fig leaves! :)

[Michael Phelps]

Let me see what has changed...
The Hebrew men wore beards...
The Hebrew men wore robes with blue fringes
The Hebrew men wore sandals...

John dresses in camel’s hair...ate locust and wild honey...

Jesus took a whip to the church of His day...

Paul made a Nazarite vow...


Well to name a few standards...

Excellent analogy, Mother Alvear!

[OP_Carl]

In my view, it depends on what "standards" being referred to. Some have their basis in creation... and some are both scriptural and common sense... and some are man made.

Unfortunately some are being tossed because they are considered man made when they really were God made.

:)

For instance:

"If you wear open-toed shoes, you're going to split the pit!"

The bible makes no connection between salvation and choice of footwear.

"Ladies shalt not wear red dresses!"

Why not? We won't confuse them with the Great Harlot of Revelation unless they're riding a beast, we promise.

"Sunglasses and colored toothpaste are fads of the world!"

So are buffet restaurants, electronic public address systems, and automobiles.

[Mrs. LPW]

For instance:

"If you wear open-toed shoes, you're going to split the pit!"

The bible makes no connection between salvation and choice of footwear.

"Ladies shalt not wear red dresses!"

Why not? We won't confuse them with the Great Harlot of Revelation unless they're riding a beast, we promise.

"Sunglasses and colored toothpaste are fads of the world!"

So are buffet restaurants, electronic public address systems, and automobiles.


I really liked that one!!!!

[Sister Alvear]

Excellent analogy, Mother Alvear!

Think I can schedule any meetings? Ha....

All these deep bible lessons...maybe I should schedule a seminar...

[Blaylock]

What was the first recorded biblical standard?

[CC1]

Let me see what has changed...
The Hebrew men wore beards...
The Hebrew men wore robes with blue fringes
The Hebrew men wore sandals...

John dresses in camel’s hair...ate locust and wild honey...

Jesus took a whip to the church of His day...

Paul made a Nazarite vow...


Well to name a few standards...

LOL!!! In other words the apostles would not have been allowed onthe platform of ultracon churches today.

[Jehoram]

I can't stand the word standard as it is used in Oneness Pentecostalism.

As if there is really a "standard" or set of standards that we have ever agreed on in the first place?

The only thing constant is change.

I am praying God removes the scales of religious pride from the eyes of my fellow believers.

[CC1]

Which "Old Ways" do we keep? The "Old Ways" which started in the 1940's and 50's? Or the "Old Ways" that started 2000 years ago?

For most people the "Old Ways" officially start at the time of their oldest known relative such as grandparents or great grand parents and in addition are heavily influenced by the town and neighborhood they grew up in.

Good post. Those "Old ways" can even be different between two churches two miles apart.

When I was a teenager my UPC pastor was considered backslid and "wrong" by the other UPC church in our town (they were right outside town) because my pastor used hairspray in his hair and wore flared jeans / slacks (this was the mid 70's). Somehow the other pastor's 8 ounces of oil in his hair to hold it in place was holy but hairspray was not! LOL!!

[OneAccord]

I'm all for "Old Time Pentecostal" meetings. I appreciate the old Pentecostal traditions. I like the old hymns. But I also know this: Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, [and] rivers in the desert. God is making rivers in the deserts. Things are more up-to-date, and relevent to this generation. It pains me to say this, but, my generation is passing on. The "new thing" God is doing is breathing new life, a new sense of fervancy. Who am I to stand in its way? No, the contemporary sound, the contemporary methods dont hold alot of appeal to me, but, if souls are being reached with the Gospel, if lives are being changed, who am I to say, "Nah, lets hold to to the old ways"? I pray this "new thing" can do what my generation didn't quite accomplish- and thats to bring more unity to the Body of Christ.

[RandyWayne]

What was the first recorded biblical standard?

It was probably animal skins for clothing.

[RandyWayne]

Good post. Those "Old ways" can even be different between two churches two miles apart.

When I was a teenager my UPC pastor was considered backslid and "wrong" by the other UPC church in our town (they were right outside town) because my pastor used hairspray in his hair and wore flared jeans / slacks (this was the mid 70's). Somehow the other pastor's 8 ounces of oil in his hair to hold it in place was holy but hairspray was not! LOL!!

Everyone, to one degree or another, is willing to explain away an action while either condemning or "not approving" of someone doing something similar. Case in point, condemning television but allowing the net. Condemning "costly apparel"/jewelry on someone, then driving away in their Lincoln or wearing an $$$ suit. (What IS the difference between an expensive piece of jewelry and a high end car anyways?? -I don't think EITHER are wrong, but can't see how one can be condemned and the other not.)
Complaining about loud "rock music" then turning the church music to 11 on the volume scale. The list is endless.... And as Spock would say "Very very 'human'."

[tv1a]

The problem with your question is your definition of old ways is less than 100 years old. The wpf's inconsistent view of television and internet proves they are rule minded, not principle minded.

wpf operates the same way the pharisees did. It's that attitude which helped nail Jesus to the cross.

The Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

The WPF is keeping with the idea that we should keep our Holiness Standards we have kept over the years. Which I agree, Yes things change but do we?
Dan'D

[tv1a]

Someone once said the couldn't define pornography, but the knew it when they saw it. We can't define standards, but we know when someone doesn't follow them.

I can't stand the word standard as it is used in Oneness Pentecostalism.

As if there is really a "standard" or set of standards that we have ever agreed on in the first place?

The only thing constant is change.

I am praying God removes the scales of religious pride from the eyes of my fellow believers.

[Arphaxad]

What was the first recorded biblical standard?

first church standards?

abstain from things offered to idols,from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Acts 15:28


ARPH :doggyrun

[robert]

Which "Old Ways" do we keep? The "Old Ways" which started in the 1940's and 50's? Or the "Old Ways" that started 2000 years ago?

For most people the "Old Ways" officially start at the time of their oldest known relative such as grandparents or great grand parents and in addition are heavily influenced by the town and neighborhood they grew up in.

Apparently you want to change things to suit your preference of standards. Or do you have any standards. How far would one go and still be holy. You must have an opinion since you are challenging what has been accepted for the last 50 years. You could write an instruction book. "Holiness standards according to Randy Wayne", or "Why, Holiness standards should be different in this day and age". Excuse my sarcasm...but did I detect some sarcasm in YOUR quote. 50 years ago every religion had a standard of holiness they lived by, it's not the fad to have rules or standards any more, but thank God some still have moral convictions and standards or where would this world be.

[Sister Alvear]

Robert: Please remember some of us know each other and we joke...We all live up to what we feel is standards. Some more outward than others however most of us are kinda like family...

[Sister Alvear]

I am problaby considered ultra con...however we are all friends...some consider me liberal...lol...so it all depends who we are judging each other by...

[robert]

My pastor says there are 1,104 promises in the New Testament. Everyone is happy to know this. We all like good news. Does any body know how many dos and don'ts are in the New Testament? Does any body even care? I hear so much talk about doing away with standards of holiness, let everyone figure it out on there own. We are called children of God. In God's eyes we are children, we need instruction, we need correction, we need some rules. [read...2 Tim. 3:16.] Imagine telling your children not to follow the rules at school, don't listen to the police, watch whatever you want to on tv. We have standards we give to our children according to our life experiences, but don't think seasoned Pastors should have the authority to teach standards to God's children. A Pastor should have the right to instruct what is modest and what is not according to his experience in his walk with God and his prayer life with God. Why do children of God feel they have the authority to define what is modest and what is not, but the man of God does not have any authority in the matter at all. Let the leaders lead and let the children of God try following. I've heard the preaching of wearing dresses to women compared to cultic practices of Jim Jones...can we get real. If teaching women to wear dresses is cultic then what will be next, asking the children of God to respect authority as being oppresive.

[robert]

Yes pls explain, is it mainly to do with dress standards? If so I agree, also with abstaining from questionable practices but then again that is a private or personal conviction(s)., today I don't believe its a good thing to force people to 100percent comply with everything unless its bible based, and/or GOD conviction I consider both to be present in my decision., meaning I don't have to have direct 100% blk/white written Bible IF I have GOD conviction ., the HG is there for a reason. ;)

Could some one tell me, is personal conviction a scriptural thing or a man made thing. What is the definition of personal conviction. Could it be a loop hole that gives permission to the user to disregard authority. Elvis Presly called it..."I did it my way"...of course he was also the most miserable famous man of his time. "100% blk/white written Bible"...why not just say if God stands right in front of me and tells me face to face then I'll believe it. We couldn't even believe in faith. Just imagine someone saying, "I can't believe that God would want me to have an automobile to drive to work because it isn't wriitten 100% blk/white bible". The Holy Ghost is there for the reason of teaching us all things and leading and guiding us into all truths. I just don't believe the Holy ghost teaches each individual different rules and convictions according to the individuals personal belief or lifestyle or what ever. Sounds like a contradiction to me. There's ONE WAY... not my way, your way ,their way, whatever way.

[Mr. Steinway]

Shakespeare weighs in! :D

SONNET LXIX

If there be nothing new, but that which is
Hath been before, how are our brains beguil'd,
Which labouring for invention bear amiss
The second burthen of a former child.
Oh that record could with a backward look,
Even of five hundred courses of the sun,
Show me your image in some antique book,
Since mind at first in character was done,
That I might see what the old world could say
To this composed wonder of your frame;
Whether we are mended, or where better they,
Or whether revolution be the same.
Oh sure I am the wits of former days,
To subjects worse have given admiring praise.

[HeavenlyOne]

My pastor says there are 1,104 promises in the New Testament. Everyone is happy to know this. We all like good news. Does any body know how many dos and don'ts are in the New Testament? Does any body even care? I hear so much talk about doing away with standards of holiness, let everyone figure it out on there own. We are called children of God. In God's eyes we are children, we need instruction, we need correction, we need some rules. [read...2 Tim. 3:16.] Imagine telling your children not to follow the rules at school, don't listen to the police, watch whatever you want to on tv. We have standards we give to our children according to our life experiences, but don't think seasoned Pastors should have the authority to teach standards to God's children. A Pastor should have the right to instruct what is modest and what is not according to his experience in his walk with God and his prayer life with God. Why do children of God feel they have the authority to define what is modest and what is not, but the man of God does not have any authority in the matter at all. Let the leaders lead and let the children of God try following. I've heard the preaching of wearing dresses to women compared to cultic practices of Jim Jones...can we get real. If teaching women to wear dresses is cultic then what will be next, asking the children of God to respect authority as being oppresive.

The problem, Bob, is that they preach it as a heaven or hell issue. This presents a problem when they move or if the preacher down the street teaches something different.

It's ok to teach preferences. It's not ok to teach them as Biblical or salvational.

[robert]

Bro. Robert, that is an excellent question, one I had never even considered: How many do's and don'ts are there in the New Testament! Great question. So, how many do's and don'ts are there in the New Testament?

Wasn't hard to find one...I just opened my bible...it fell on [Mathew... 4:19]...Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall "do" and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.... Jesus is refering back to the law.

[OP_Carl]

The problem with your question is your definition of old ways is less than 100 years old. The wpf's inconsistent view of television and internet proves they are rule minded, not principle minded. The consideration of television programming and internet access as equivalents is YOUR OPINION. You can't make a proof from a faulty premise.

wpf operates the same way the pharisees did.This sort of thing used to be against the rules around here.

It's that attitude which helped nail Jesus to the cross.This is ultra-dangerous theology. Jesus went to the cross willingly and of his own accord. He did it out of his great love to provide the ultimate sacrifice for sin. If the Pharisees had seen the light, some other group would have hammered the nails. The Pharisees' main railing accusation against him was his self-expression of Godhead, which they saw as blasphemy. It wasn't for the minor points of the law that they took him before Pilate.

[deacon blues]

Or could it be the REALLY old ways, lol

Lets be glad that whatever 'standards' we might have that people either do or don't comply with, none of us are thrown in jail or prosecuted over it (persecuted? maybe ) such as the Islamics do to their people over their religious practices, got this from an article on MSN?

The Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice runs the fearsome religious police, which is charged with enforcing Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic lifestyle. Its members patrol public places to make sure women are covered and not wearing make up, the sexes don't mingle, shops close five times a day for Muslim prayers and men go to the mosque and worship.

Although I kind of do like the attention to detail. :D
I like that there is priority given to worshipping their god., our 'standards' aren't even close to what is required ( and enforced ) there yet some people still gotta complain here. *sigh*
BUT, a "commission for the promotion of VIRTUE and the prevention of VICE"??? LOL! Good grief, IF that were to be had here, what an outrage and riot would ensue.

Be grateful American citizens! ;) This is a blessed free country.

We have some churches that have an atmosphere about them where the members "spy" on each other, post pictures on the internet of members doing something that would revoke them from being on the platform, the choir, being in leadership, etc. Its kind of like the Gestapo or the KGB with the members policing each other, reporting violations to the pastor or other church leaders.

I understand standards. I believe they have their place in the life of the church. I have my own standards and standards as a pastor. But I am fearful that in too may cases we have turned them into idols. When it gets to this level, rather than manifesting the glory of God which draws men unto Him, it manifests something else and drives people away.

I don't think comparing us to the Muslims is making a strong case for how right standards are. I think it points more toward the fact that standards taken to nth degree makes us merely religious like the Muslims. We've got it good not because we don't have state sanctioned enforcement of religious disciplines, we are blessed because we are free in Christ.

[deacon blues]

The oldest standard:

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Uh, not counting the fig leaves, of course. That was substandard. And before the fig leaves, well, I guess that was actually the first standard!


The first standard concerning modesty that is.

The FIRST standard is Jesus Christ, who is the express image of God! By Him all things were made. Without Him there was nothing made that was made. HE IS OUR STANDARD!

[robert]

The problem, Bob, is that they preach it as a heaven or hell issue. This presents a problem when they move or if the preacher down the street teaches something different.

It's ok to teach preferences. It's not ok to teach them as Biblical or salvational.

Who decides what is a heaven or hell issue. A man of God teaches long hair on women/ short hair on men. Another man of God teaches it's up to your own personal conviction. Who decides it doesn't matter...Isn't dishonouring your head a consideration of right or wrong. If I thought even in the least that my actions would dishonour my head which is Christ Jesus I would not even question the correctness or inconvenience of it...I would just do it. God told Moses to take off his shoe for he was on Holy ground...Was that a heaven or hell issue. We could argue, God wouldn't have sent Moses to hell if he disregarded the respect asked of him by God. Some say if God spoke to me from a burning bush, I'd do it. But if God speaks from his Word or through the preaching of a man of God they won't do it. Who decides what is honouring God or does it matter. We should just do these things and find out when we get to heven if it was actually necessary. I hear every kind of excuse that can be thought of to get out of doing something that is not even harmful to us in the first place. No wonder God calls us his children. We act like children.

[deacon blues]

A Pastor should have the right to instruct what is modest and what is not according to his experience in his walk with God and his prayer life with God. Why do children of God feel they have the authority to define what is modest and what is not, but the man of God does not have any authority in the matter at all. Let the leaders lead and let the children of God try following.


I agree. The problem is when Pastor X tries to determine what Pastor Y and Pastor Z are doing and not allowing those pastors to instruct what the believe to be modest and what is not according to his prayer life and walk with God. Why do preachers feel they have the authority to define what is modest and what is not for other pastors and their congregations? Let the pastors pastor their own congregations and leave the others alone.

[HeavenlyOne]

Who decides what is a heaven or hell issue. A man of God teaches long hair on women/ short hair on men. Another man of God teaches it's up to your own personal conviction. Who decides it doesn't matter...Isn't dishonouring your head a consideration of right or wrong. If I thought even in the least that my actions would dishonour my head which is Christ Jesus I would not even question the correctness or inconvenience of it...I would just do it. God told Moses to take off his shoe for he was on Holy ground...Was that a heaven or hell issue. We could argue, God wouldn't have sent Moses to hell if he disregarded the respect asked of him by God. Some say if God spoke to me from a burning bush, I'd do it. But if God speaks from his Word or through the preaching of a man of God they won't do it. Who decides what is honouring God or does it matter. We should just do these things and find out when we get to heven if it was actually necessary. I hear every kind of excuse that can be thought of to get out of doing something that is not even harmful to us in the first place. No wonder God calls us his children. We act like children.

Bob, this is a funny post. It really is. I mean, you are posting on women's standards and claim to follow them if you were a woman, but you are a man!!! You think it's so simple....LOL! You really have no idea, unless there is something you aren't telling us......

But aside from that, you are sidestepping the issue a bit. One pastor preaches one thing, another pastor preaches another. Both claim their standards are heaven and hell issues.

So who is right? Both claim to have Bible for their beliefs. This is a problem in the UPC and other churches as well.

But instead of addressing that issue, you want to talk about how easy it would be for you to follow women's dress standards if you were a woman.

Please. You have no idea anymore than you would agree to have ten children if you were a woman because you would embrace childbirth having no idea what childbirth is even like. LOL!

[Sister Alvear]

The word of God decides all issues...

[robert]

Ok, thanks, Brother. Thats one but, the question you posed was, HOW MANY. I'm dyin' to know. I think its a good question that will make us really thing about what you posted. So... there are ______ dos and don'ts in the NT. Just fill in the blank. And, what about the OT, how many are there in the OT?

The question was does any one know how many dos and don'ts are in the New Testament, or does any one care? I don't know the answer, that's the point would any one even want to count them. Promises no problem...commandments different reaction. The promises don't save us. obedience to every word does. My point being is, Saints try to get out of everything it seems, but want to do so little in honour of Jesus.

[robert]

Bob, this is a funny post. It really is. I mean, you are posting on women's standards and claim to follow them if you were a woman, but you are a man!!! You think it's so simple....LOL! You really have no idea, unless there is something you aren't telling us......

But aside from that, you are sidestepping the issue a bit. One pastor preaches one thing, another pastor preaches another. Both claim their standards are heaven and hell issues.

So who is right? Both claim to have Bible for their beliefs. This is a problem in the UPC and other churches as well.

But instead of addressing that issue, you want to talk about how easy it would be for you to follow women's dress standards if you were a woman.

Please. You have no idea anymore than you would agree to have ten children if you were a woman because you would embrace childbirth having no idea what childbirth is even like. LOL!

Re-read my post...long hair on women/short hair on men...The funny thing is when some one is anti-standard they allways try to make the one for standards as male chauvenist. Is this meant as away to discredit the pro-standard person. I believe modesty applys to men and women. Pastors are the preachers that God sent to teach us through preaching. My question is who decides what is the definition of modesty, man of God or the personal conviction.

[bkstokes]

The question was does any one know how many dos and don'ts are in the New Testament, or does any one care? I don't know the answer, that's the point would any one even want to count them. Promises no problem...commandments different reaction. The promises don't save us. obedience to every word does. My point being is, Saints try to get out of everything it seems, but want to do so little in honour of Jesus.

My dear brother we are not saved because we are obedient to every word. I love the LORD and want to obey His word more than anything in my life. Howver, within this flesh I find no good thing and that which I should do I at times cannot and that which I should not do at times I am guilty of BUT THANKS BE TO GOD FOR HIS GIFT --- JESUS! We cannot do it all on are own we are still saved by GRACE. :bliss

[robert]

Bob, this is a funny post. It really is. I mean, you are posting on women's standards and claim to follow them if you were a woman, but you are a man!!! You think it's so simple....LOL! You really have no idea, unless there is something you aren't telling us......

But aside from that, you are sidestepping the issue a bit. One pastor preaches one thing, another pastor preaches another. Both claim their standards are heaven and hell issues.

So who is right? Both claim to have Bible for their beliefs. This is a problem in the UPC and other churches as well.

But instead of addressing that issue, you want to talk about how easy it would be for you to follow women's dress standards if you were a woman.
Please. You have no idea anymore than you would agree to have ten children if you were a woman because you would embrace childbirth having no idea what childbirth is even like. LOL!

The only clothes I mentioned were Moses' shoes...if you can call shoes clothes.:2cents

[HeavenlyOne]

Re-read my post...long hair on women/short hair on men...The funny thing is when some one is anti-standard they allways try to make the one for standards as male chauvenist. Is this meant as away to discredit the pro-standard person. I believe modesty applys to men and women. Pastors are the preachers that God sent to teach us through preaching. My question is who decides what is the definition of modesty, man of God or the personal conviction.

And you still didn't address what I said!!

Are you even reading my posts?

Ok, let's start over.

Are you saying that a pastor has the right to say what is a heaven or hell issue in regard to standards, even if he claims to have scripture?

And I'm definitely not anti-standard. Not sure where you got that idea, since you don't even know me.

Yes, modesty applies to both men and women, but when did you last hear a standards message about how men should dress??

I've been in the church over 30 years under 6 pastors and I can tell you that I have yet to hear a 'men's standard message' preached.

So, what is your take on the question you asked above?

[Sister Alvear]

Re-read my post...long hair on women/short hair on men...The funny thing is when some one is anti-standard they allways try to make the one for standards as male chauvenist. Is this meant as away to discredit the pro-standard person. I believe modesty applys to men and women. Pastors are the preachers that God sent to teach us through preaching. My question is who decides what is the definition of modesty, man of God or the personal conviction.

The Bible decides that...
All you have to do is know what modesty means...

[robert]

The standards question always seems to bring out the passion in everyone. Whether for...against...or undecided. This alone should prove the importance of this issue. The question this thread asks is what to do about standards? Keep them or discard them. The attacks came very quickly as I expected. I don't claim to have all the answers, but if standards doesn't really matter Why do some still hold them so dear. I wonder if Moses thought about taking off his shoes every time he saw a brush fire, just because of the memory of a Holy God. When a Saint of God continues to follow the standard of holiness aparrel they've lived with for so long I'm sure they think of God as they look at their selves in the mirror and see if everything is proper and in place. Well, I should say they'd be aware that God was looking if they changed that standard of holiness. I know many say what right does he have to judge me? Sorry I can't judge you, I don't even know any one here. So please don't take my words personally. As far as obeying every word for obtaining salvation...oops...bad choice of words. Got to be careful. You guys are sharp. I wrote a few post and every word was dissected looking for the fault or incosistencience in what I wrote. Got to go get some sleep, early day tomorrow. God bless you all.

[OneAccord]

My dear brother we are not saved because we are obedient to every word. I love the LORD and want to obey His word more than anything in my life. Howver, within this flesh I find no good thing and that which I should do I at times cannot and that which I should not do at times I am guilty of BUT THANKS BE TO GOD FOR HIS GIFT --- JESUS! We cannot do it all on are own we are still saved by GRACE. :bliss

Now folks, what we have right here is a good honest brother (You are a brother, ain't ya?) that makes more sense than anything I have read on this whole thread. He admits, just as Paul admits, he can't do it. You can keep every law, every standards, and still miss it. This brothers faith is not in what he does or doesn't do. Its in what Jesus did and is doing in his life. He doesn't dismiss standards as some ol' outdated thing that was "good enough for Grandma" but aint good enough for me. And he don't knuckle under a standard that ain't a standard at all- but merely someones idea of what a standard is suppose to be. The issue of standards will never, ever be settled until we come to terms with what is and what is not a Biblically mandated standard. Until then, I guess we'll just have to hobnobble along the best we can and let the Lord show us what we need to know. And, trust His Work of salvation, not our own. If I had a hat on, Bro Stokes, I'd doff my hat to ya. Post of the Day, right here!

[simplyme]

[/B]

The Bible decides that...
All you have to do is know what modesty means...

You say it like its that easy, lol
It may be but people are whom make it harder than it has to be, whatever happened to common sense? common decency? I knew what was proper or not proper long before I read anything about it in the bible., I had a daddy!
;)
And thats all I'll say about this [modesty]. :D

[simplyme]

Now folks, what we have right here is a good honest brother (You are a brother, ain't ya?) that makes more sense than anything I have read on this whole thread. He admits, just as Paul admits, he can't do it. You can keep every law, every standards, and still miss it. This brothers faith is not in what he does or doesn't do. Its in what Jesus did and is doing in his life. He doesn't dismiss standards as some ol' outdated thing that was "good enough for Grandma" but aint good enough for me. And he don't knuckle under a standard that ain't a standard at all- but merely someones idea of what a standard is suppose to be. The issue of standards will never, ever be settled until we come to terms with what is and what is not a Biblically mandated standard. Until then, I guess we'll just have to hobnobble along the best we can and let the Lord show us what we need to know. And, trust His Work of salvation, not our own. If I had a hat on, Bro Stokes, I'd doff my hat to ya. Post of the Day, right here!

I have to agree, but then I think of the people whom have used that scripture as an excuse NOT to even try to do the least of something good we don't HAVE to be perfect, we all know that even without that scripture which btw is a fav of mine, ;) It came to me at a time when I thought I was a failure, that I could never get right with GOD., it has been a comforting scripture to me at times.
That JESUS is all we need is a given., we are saved by grace, we all know that.
Lest we forget we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling", knowing that of course we do trust in His work of salvation., but its not over yet, there is some work of our own to do as long as we remain in this flesh.

[OneAccord]

If Jesus is our “standard bearer”, our example, the pattern which we are to follow, and if He was the manifestation of God in the flesh, and the very expressed image of God…. If He was, as Peter said, a man approved of God… then following standards would be the same as simply following Christ, right? I mean, He was without sin so, if we follow His example then we should be okay.

So, all we need to do is look at the “standards” that were in affect in His day, and simply keep those that He kept. Seems simple enough.

Lets begin….

First, we find Jesus, as a child, slipping off from His parents to go into the Temple, causing them mush worry and consternation. Wouldn’t that be dishonoring His parents which was a standard that was in affect at that time? But wait, technically, Joseph was not His parent, so, Jesus didn’t “Dishonor his FATHER and Mother. “

Next, we find Jesus being baptized in water. Since water baptism isn’t mentioned in the OT, we can’t really say that was a “standard” for that day. But, we know from Jesus' example and from Acts 2:38, that baptism is a NT standard for us to follow.

As Jesus grew into manhood, it is a commonly, historically and biblically view that He wore a beard. No NT or OT law against wearing facial hair so He is safe there. However, many churches teach against facial hair, so, though He did not violate the standards of His day, it would seem that He would be violating at least some church standards of today.

Next, and this is where it gets sticky. Jesus did two things that are questionable. First he healed on the Sabbath (a very strict standard of the day) and, He “plucked corn (wheat) on the Sabbath. Not only did He break the Sabbath, but He encouraged or allowed others to follow suit. Not only did he violate a MAJOR standard, He also encourages others to do the same. That’s a double whammy. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

Is there another instance where Jesus failed to keep “standards”? Yes, I believe their was a time when He ate with sinners. Contrary to the standards of the day. I believe He even ministered to a Non-Jewish woman. He even allowed a woman to wash His feet and dry them with her hair. Strictly against Jewish standards.

Here’s another. A woman was caught in the very act of adultery. Jesus defended and forgave the woman even though the standards of the day called for her to be put to death. His defense of the woman stopped a legal enforcement of the Law. He was guilty of interfering with the standards of the day.

He, as unbelievable as this was to the Jewish people, violated another strict standard. He ate with unwashed hands.

This is NOT about doing away with standards or negating their importance. Its about putting things in the proper perspective..By all means, stand your ground, just don’t try to force others to agree with your standards, when Jesus Himself broke the very Law He told to others to keep. Go back to Mat 5:19. That’s another one. By the definition of standards today, Jesus violated the very standard he told others to keep.

Here’s the point: Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. As intelligent, educated people who love the Lord and desire to be pleasing unto Him, all we need to do is: Listen to what the Bible says. What we read, or what we hear through the preaching of the Gospel, obey, if…IF…it is a biblically mandated standard or principle. If not, then, do as Paul said, work it out for yourself. Decide within yourself, between you and God, whether or not you will choose to adhere to that non-biblical principle. There are principles in my life that I keep that are biblically mandated . Do I keep all the Biblical mandates? No, I fail just like everyone else. I try, but, maybe not hard enough. There are principles I keep (at least try to) that are not biblically mandated. But I keep them because I feel that it is the right thing to do. But I don't demand others to keep them just because I do, or because I think everyone has to be just like me. Christian living isn’t about doing and not doing. Its about trusting the grace of God to lead us in His way. And… when you stop tothink about it, He’s a really good Leader… if we’ll follow.

[CC1]

Robert,

Good to see you posting!

Deacon Blue,

I have been missing your words of wisdome. It is good to see you posting again.

[RandyWayne]

Apparently you want to change things to suit your preference of standards. Or do you have any standards. How far would one go and still be holy. You must have an opinion since you are challenging what has been accepted for the last 50 years. You could write an instruction book. "Holiness standards according to Randy Wayne", or "Why, Holiness standards should be different in this day and age". Excuse my sarcasm...but did I detect some sarcasm in YOUR quote. 50 years ago every religion had a standard of holiness they lived by, it's not the fad to have rules or standards any more, but thank God some still have moral convictions and standards or where would this world be.


Mmmmm... The "Standards According to Randy Wayne". How would such a book go? For starters it would be very short. It would start out with a verse about, ohhh, working out your own salvation followed by a verse saying to "obey those who have rule over you" MODIFIED by another verse condemning any who would add or take away from the Word.

So 3 or 4 versus... maybe.

[OneAccord]

I have to agree, but then I think of the people whom have used that scripture as an excuse NOT to even try to do the least of something good we don't HAVE to be perfect, we all know that even without that scripture which btw is a fav of mine, ;) It came to me at a time when I thought I was a failure, that I could never get right with GOD., it has been a comforting scripture to me at times.
That JESUS is all we need is a given., we are saved by grace, we all know that.
Lest we forget we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling", knowing that of course we do trust in His work of salvation., but its not over yet, there is some work of our own to do as long as we remain in this flesh.

Thats true... there is work to do. But as Paul clearly states any "works" do is because we are saved, and not to be saved. But, thats not the real issues. The idssue is these pesky standards that keep popping every couple of days. What do we do with them. I say keep those that are clearly and unmistakenly spelled out in the Word. Those that aren't, decide (Thats where the "work" come in) between yourself and God, what you will do with them. Thats what Paul said: WORK it out for yourself.

[bkstokes]

I have to agree, but then I think of the people whom have used that scripture as an excuse NOT to even try to do the least of something good we don't HAVE to be perfect, we all know that even without that scripture which btw is a fav of mine, ;) It came to me at a time when I thought I was a failure, that I could never get right with GOD., it has been a comforting scripture to me at times.
That JESUS is all we need is a given., we are saved by grace, we all know that.
Lest we forget we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling", knowing that of course we do trust in His work of salvation., but its not over yet, there is some work of our own to do as long as we remain in this flesh.

I can understand your caution in this matter. However, this converstaion reminds of a Jeff Arnold sermon within the last 15 yrs at BOTT. He started preaching about grace and then had to back track every statement he said so that no one would think he was a compromiser. Let us just face the facts we One God Apostolics are scared of the word grace. The context of the scripture that I loosely quoted dictates that we don't take advantage of the grace of God. However, I do understand your sincere desire to be cautious about its use. :friend

[kingfish]

i think the whole issue holiness is one thing & standards are another . i think holiness is inward & standares{ is used wrong } we have been taught standers is holiness but the bible calls us all to be modest in our apparel to cover our selves& not to draw attention in the wrong way .{ lustfull are sexual way]

[RandyWayne]

I can understand your caution in this matter. However, this converstaion reminds of a Jeff Arnold sermon within the last 15 yrs at BOTT. He started preaching about grace and then had to back track every statement he said so that no one would think he was a compromiser. Let us just face the facts we One God Apostolics are scared of the word grace. The context of the scripture that I loosely quoted dictates that we don't take advantage of the grace of God. However, I do understand your sincere desire to be cautious about its use. :friend

This reminds me of a church in my past where no one was considered saved until they had "the look". Oh, people clapped and shouted when a new person was baptized, or when they were told this person just received the HG. But the REAL joy came when they showed up a few services later looking the part. THAT seems to be how most of the congregation knew they were truly saved.
As a young teen I realized that people were putting the focus on the wrong things: First Acts 2:38 was held in higher regard than the cross, and then "standards" were held in even slightly higher than Acts 2:38..... And then within those "standards" some were held to a higher place then others.....

[OneAccord]

i think the whole issue holiness is one thing & standards are another . i think holiness is inward & standares{ is used wrong } we have been taught standers is holiness but the bible calls us all to be modest in our apparel to cover our selves& not to draw attention in the wrong way .{ lustfull are sexual way]

Kingfish, I think you are right. I posted this on another thread when the brother said I would never see standards as holiness. He was absolutely correct.




Without a grasp of Biblical New Birth, you will never see standards as Holiness.

I re-read this statement this morning (as I'm SUPPOSE to be getting ready for church) and I found that I agree with the underlines words completely. And this isn't an attack on "standards". But, no, I do not see standards as holiness. There are not one and the same. Holiness is what God does when He washes us in the Blood of the Lamb. The stain of sin is washed away when we are covered by His Blood and He... NOTE: HE... makes us holy. Holiness is what HE does in our hearts and lives. Standards,or, more correctly, godly principles, are what WE do, to maintain holiness unto the Lord. And what those "standards" are between an individual and his or her Creator. The Christain principles of love, faith, goodness, and so on that we maintain in our lives is how we respond to the holiness the Lord gives us at Calvary.

There are a great number of religious sects in the world that keep "standards", but have they been made "Holiness unto the Lord" by His Blood? Can we say that the mere keeping of "standards" is what makes us holy? Of course not. If so, then our faith is a works based faith, because keeping standards is a work, that, it seems, some boast in. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9 My salvation, any holiness I might have, is the result of the work HE did in my life when He saved my soul. . My "works" of believing the Gospel, being baptized in Jesus Name, being filled with the Holy Ghost, and maintaining Christian principles, is my response to His Finished Work at Calvary.

[robert]

Mmmmm... The "Standards According to Randy Wayne". How would such a book go? For starters it would be very short. It would start out with a verse about, ohhh, working out your own salvation followed by a verse saying to "obey those who have rule over you" MODIFIED by another verse condemning any who would add or take away from the Word.

So 3 or 4 versus... maybe.

Since you are so knowledgeable...could you, or would you be able to explain or define...working out your own salvation? I think leaving this up to the individual without further explanation could result in more diverse definitions than all the existing religions of the world. Are you serious about obeying those who have the rule over you and who are they? It appears you would be for adding to the word since you use quotes that do not come from the scriptures even as you presume to take away from the word by your own philosophies that are not even based on true study of same scriptures. Who knows the mind of God. Do you?

[Blaylock]

The first standard concerning modesty that is.

The FIRST standard is Jesus Christ, who is the express image of God! By Him all things were made. Without Him there was nothing made that was made. HE IS OUR STANDARD!

I thought most everyone would post the answer as clothes but sorry you are wrong. It had nothing to do with modesty but spiritual safety. Gen 2:16 - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But Adam (the watchman and husbandman of the garden) says:Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Who added the “touch it”? Adam did! Sometime Pastors have to lead as the Spirit leads them. And when we do this it shouldn’t be because of tradition but of love for their soul

[bkstokes]

This reminds me of a church in my past where no one was considered saved until they had "the look". Oh, people clapped and shouted when a new person was baptized, or when they were told this person just received the HG. But the REAL joy came when they showed up a few services later looking the part. THAT seems to be how most of the congregation knew they were truly saved.
As a young teen I realized that people were putting the focus on the wrong things: First Acts 2:38 was held in higher regard than the cross, and then "standards" were held in even slightly higher than Acts 2:38..... And then within those "standards" some were held to a higher place then others.....

My thoughts exactly Randy. I was raised baptist and didn't recieve the Holy Ghost until I was 18. I use to always fo to summer camps with my baptist church where for a week or so we would have devotions, prayer, and activities. I remember once the Pastor had us read out of Acts. I questioned myself, "Why is this book so unfamiliar to me?" This was one of the things that lead me to look for more. However, I agree with you that is one thing that has always grieved me is when people focus more or ACTS 2:38 then the cross. May the LORD help us to keep everything in perspective!

[bkstokes]

Sorry that I typed my last post and didn't go back and review it for errors of grammar or spelling.

[commonsense]

This reminds me of a church in my past where no one was considered saved until they had "the look". Oh, people clapped and shouted when a new person was baptized, or when they were told this person just received the HG. But the REAL joy came when they showed up a few services later looking the part. THAT seems to be how most of the congregation knew they were truly saved.
As a young teen I realized that people were putting the focus on the wrong things: First Acts 2:38 was held in higher regard than the cross, and then "standards" were held in even slightly higher than Acts 2:38..... And then within those "standards" some were held to a higher place then others.....


I too have observed this mentality in churches.

[Mr. Steinway]

I too have observed this mentality in churches.
ditto! :)

[commonsense]

My thoughts exactly Randy. I was raised baptist and didn't recieve the Holy Ghost until I was 18. However, I agree with you that is one thing that has always grieved me is when people focus more or ACTS 2:38 then the cross. May the LORD help us to keep everything in perspective!


Raised UPC and love my past and all of the teaching and experiences , but must still agree that there is not always proper emphasis on what I consider the basics. I daresay everyone could use the Baptist foundation and then add the Acts 2:38 experience and we would produce healthier Christians.

In the natural the government has RDA standards for nutrition, but these are based on everyone first consuming a proper diet and -------- then these are the required nutrients. But we as Americans do not eat all of the necessary fruits and veggies, so the graph is faulty.

In the spiritual, we put all of the focus on Acts 2:38, but this is with the assumption that we have the prior basic scriptural knowledge. I truly think the UPC glosses over some of the preliminary steps.

Nothing wrong with learning to crawl before we walk.

[Praxeas]

The Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

The WPF is keeping with the idea that we should keep our Holiness Standards we have kept over the years. Which I agree, Yes things change but do we?
Dan'D
Whose Holiness Standards? You say we and our.....but not everyone has the same set of standards.

Do we change? Yes we do and should when we realize our views and lives do not come in line with the word of God.

So your post assumes a lot of things for the rest of the board, that they all agree with you on the standards you believe in and that some no longer do because things change.

There have been many "standards" that changed over the years before....

[Whole Hearted]

I still believe and love all the holiness standards. I still hold to everything that my great grandparents taught me and I am teaching them to my children.

[tv1a]

...
The consideration of television programming and internet access as equivalents is YOUR OPINION. You can't make a proof from a faulty premise.
[quote] tv1a: The faulty premise the the ignorant idea that internet is okay, but television isn't.
This sort of thing used to be against the rules around here.
tv1a: Galatians 3:1 says legalism is witchcraft. An organization based on legalism is not of God.

This is ultra-dangerous theology. Jesus went to the cross willingly and of his own accord. He did it out of his great love to provide the ultimate sacrifice for sin. If the Pharisees had seen the light, some other group would have hammered the nails. The Pharisees' main railing accusation against him was his self-expression of Godhead, which they saw as blasphemy. It wasn't for the minor points of the law that they took him before Pilate.

] The pharisees were looking for an excuse to nail Jesus after he repeatedly exposed their fraud. Although they were part of the divine plan, Jesus knew what buttons to push the pharisees to the point of retribution. [/[/SIZE]QUOTE]
...

[robert]

I still believe and love all the holiness standards. I still hold to everything that my great grandparents taught me and I am teaching them to my children.

It's good to hear there are some that still stand for the Old Landmarks still around!

[robert]

Raised UPC and love my past and all of the teaching and experiences , but must still agree that there is not always proper emphasis on what I consider the basics. I daresay everyone could use the Baptist foundation and then add the Acts 2:38 experience and we would produce healthier Christians.

In the natural the government has RDA standards for nutrition, but these are based on everyone first consuming a proper diet and -------- then these are the required nutrients. But we as Americans do not eat all of the necessary fruits and veggies, so the graph is faulty.

In the spiritual, we put all of the focus on Acts 2:38, but this is with the assumption that we have the prior basic scriptural knowledge. I truly think the UPC glosses over some of the preliminary steps.

Nothing wrong with learning to crawl before we walk.

Are Apostolics now wanting to add doctrine from trinitarian churches to complement the Apostolic way, what's the church coming to.

[robert]

My thoughts exactly Randy. I was raised baptist and didn't recieve the Holy Ghost until I was 18. I use to always fo to summer camps with my baptist church where for a week or so we would have devotions, prayer, and activities. I remember once the Pastor had us read out of Acts. I questioned myself, "Why is this book so unfamiliar to me?" This was one of the things that lead me to look for more. However, I agree with you that is one thing that has always grieved me is when people focus more or ACTS 2:38 then the cross. May the LORD help us to keep everything in perspective!

Have you ever considered that Jesus first preached repent for the kindom of heaven is at hand, was baptised. and had a showing of the Holy Ghost to a man (John the Baptist) before he ever went to the cross. Without his death at the cross there would not have been an Acts 2:38, but that doesn't diminish the importance of repentance, baptism and recieving the Holy Ghost or Jesus would not have had these things come into focus in his life before his death.

[CC1]

It's good to hear there are some that still stand for the Old Landmarks still around!


Or Land Rovers! Or even Range Rovers!


Hold the Fort!, Hold the Fort!!!!!:tantrum

[HeavenlyOne]

It's good to hear there are some that still stand for the Old Landmarks still around!

You mean, the ones that didn't exist until 1945??

[bkstokes]

Have you ever considered that Jesus first preached repent for the kindom of heaven is at hand, was baptised. and had a showing of the Holy Ghost to a man (John the Baptist) before he ever went to the cross. Without his death at the cross there would not have been an Acts 2:38, but that doesn't diminish the importance of repentance, baptism and recieving the Holy Ghost or Jesus would not have had these things come into focus in his life before his death.

Dear Sir

I do not diminish any of the fundamental doctrines of the NT church. Nevertheless, I am determined to know only Christ and Him Crucified. I think if one does such a thing he or she is in good company.

[robert]

You mean, the ones that didn't exist until 1945??

Mam. With all due respect, I just appreciate an old time Apostolic preacher man. I guess I'm kinda nostolgic for some things the way they were. I liked mom's home made fried chicken smothered in gravy. Modern things are nice and make life a lot easier, but give me that ole time religion, it's good enough for me. It seems a lot of folks got hurt by some one or something that concerned the old time church ways. But people get hurt in the modern way of churchin too.

[robert]

Or Land Rovers! Or even Range Rovers!


Hold the Fort!, Hold the Fort!!!!!:tantrum

HUH

[robert]

Dear Sir

I do not diminish any of the fundamental doctrines of the NT church. Nevertheless, I am determined to know only Christ and Him Crucified. I think if one does such a thing he or she is in good company.

Thank you for your kind reply.

[RandyWayne]

Mam. With all due respect, I just appreciate an old time Apostolic preacher man. I guess I'm kinda nostolgic for some things the way they were. I liked mom's home made fried chicken smothered in gravy. Modern things are nice and make life a lot easier, but give me that ole time religion, it's good enough for me. It seems a lot of folks got hurt by some one or something that concerned the old time church ways. But people get hurt in the modern way of churchin too.

Just as many, or more, people get hurt in the modern churches. But in another 50 years, will the current Church be considered the "Old Way"? Or will it still be the 40's-50's brand?

[robert]

Just as many, or more, people get hurt in the modern churches. But in another 50 years, will the current Church be considered the "Old Way"? Or will it still be the 40's-50's brand?

You know what RandyWayne sometimes I think I've woke up in the twilight zone. I wonder what Jesus thinks of all the different ways man has interpretted his word. Surely He never intended for so much controversy, even though He knew it would happen. God must be getting ready to wrap things up. I'm so confused with all the opinions and differences of beliefs, I don't know up from down. I truly wished I could figure it all out. But who do you believe and who do you follow. I'm following Jesus to best of my ability, but it seems every one wants to show us the way. I'm sorry I was harsh with you on some of my post, I just get frustrated. If the church gets any more liberal will it even really be God's church any more?

[Dan'D]

The Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

The WPF is keeping with the idea that we should keep our Holiness Standards we have kept over the years. Which I agree, Yes things change but do we?
Dan'D

I was referring to Outward appearance.
We leave important things out ,the Bible does say something about obeying our pastor. Beyond that I realize there are some things that don’t make sense, Colored shirts, Red shoes etc.

But most all of our standards, we have heard preached for the last 50 years have good foundation. There is sound thinking behind most. For something to be a standard I don’t believe it must be spelled out word for word in the Bible. That is our way of making excuses for ourselves because we don’t want to abide by standards. It should not be left to each and every person to decide for themselves.

If we get to the place we think we don’t need rules that’s when the insane runs the mental institution. If you think you are to good for rules then you need them most.

There are reasons to have some rules: Nail Polish, Fake nails, Makeup of any type, Cutting of women’s hair, a Man having long hair, Even facial hair, Tight clothing, Skirts to the knee and no split above, Shorts of any type including knee shorts, Wigs or toupee, Jewelry men or women, Short sleeves men and women, Cleavage man or women, worldly music, TV, Bowling Alleys.

Where world you draw the line for your children?
Where would you draw the line?
A pastor looks after us like we look after our children.

There a good book about this called “What a Difference a Line makes”

Dan’D

Would a backslider recognize your church?

[HeavenlyOne]

Mam. With all due respect, I just appreciate an old time Apostolic preacher man. I guess I'm kinda nostolgic for some things the way they were. I liked mom's home made fried chicken smothered in gravy. Modern things are nice and make life a lot easier, but give me that ole time religion, it's good enough for me. It seems a lot of folks got hurt by some one or something that concerned the old time church ways. But people get hurt in the modern way of churchin too.

Do you honestly think that the 'old time way' you speak of is old fashioned or modern compared to the Bible ways? Seriously.

Did the 'old time Apostolic preacher man' speak about 'old time Apostolic preacher men' before say, 1920?

You call them the old landmarks. What were those landmarks called in 1930?

[robert]

Do you honestly think that the 'old time way' you speak of is old fashioned or modern compared to the Bible ways? Seriously.

Did the 'old time Apostolic preacher man' speak about 'old time Apostolic preacher men' before say, 1920?

You call them the old landmarks. What were those landmarks called in 1930?

Seriously, I should have kept my thoughts to Whole Hearted to myself or PM'd I guess. No offense intended to you...seriously.

[HeavenlyOne]

You know what RandyWayne sometimes I think I've woke up in the twilight zone. I wonder what Jesus thinks of all the different ways man has interpretted his word. Surely He never intended for so much controversy, even though He knew it would happen. God must be getting ready to wrap things up. I'm so confused with all the opinions and differences of beliefs, I don't know up from down. I truly wished I could figure it all out. But who do you believe and who do you follow. I'm following Jesus to best of my ability, but it seems every one wants to show us the way. I'm sorry I was harsh with you on some of my post, I just get frustrated. If the church gets any more liberal will it even really be God's church any more?

Straight is the gate and narrow the way, right?

So, what matters more......how we get there or that we get there at all?

[HeavenlyOne]

Seriously, I should have kept my thoughts to Whole Hearted to myself or PM'd I guess. No offense intended to you...seriously.

Robert, can you just answer the questions? I'm not offended at your statements, but it's irritating when someone asks questions and they aren't answered or avoided, know what I mean?

[robert]

I was referring to Outward appearance.
We leave important things out ,the Bible does say something about obeying our pastor. Beyond that I realize there are some things that don’t make sense, Colored shirts, Red shoes etc.

But most all of our standards, we have heard preached for the last 50 years have good foundation. There is sound thinking behind most. For something to be a standard I don’t believe it must be spelled out word for word in the Bible. That is our way of making excuses for ourselves because we don’t want to abide by standards. It should not be left to each and every person to decide for themselves.

If we get to the place we think we don’t need rules that’s when the insane runs the mental institution. If you think you are to good for rules then you need them most.

There are reasons to have some rules: Nail Polish, Fake nails, Makeup of any type, Cutting of women’s hair, a Man having long hair, Even facial hair, Tight clothing, Skirts to the knee and no split above, Shorts of any type including knee shorts, Wigs or toupee, Jewelry men or women, Short sleeves men and women, Cleavage man or women, worldly music, TV, Bowling Alleys.

Where world you draw the line for your children?
Where would you draw the line?
A pastor looks after us like we look after our children.

There a good book about this called “What a Difference a Line makes”

Dan’D

Would a backslider recognize your church?

DanD you sound kinda old time religion or am I missinterpretting your post. You do know what I mean by old time religion. :)

[Dan'D]

DanD you sound kinda old time religion or am I missinterpretting your post. You do know what I mean by old time religion. :)

Explain
Dan'D

[robert]

Explain
Dan'D

Forget it, If I have to explain then we're not on the same wave length. Thanks for replying though.

[RandyWayne]

Forget it, If I have to explain then we're not on the same wave length. Thanks for replying though.

Well, now THAT was kind of rude! LOL

Like when my wife says "Well, if I have to tell you what you did....!", and then not tell me. LOL

[HeavenlyOne]

Well, now THAT was kind of rude! LOL

Like when my wife says "Well, if I have to tell you what you did....!", and then not tell me. LOL

Randy, it doesn't appear that he's able to explain. He just wants a place to preach. I'd rather have honest discussion.

[OneAccord]

You know what RandyWayne sometimes I think I've woke up in the twilight zone. I wonder what Jesus thinks of all the different ways man has interpretted his word. Surely He never intended for so much controversy, even though He knew it would happen. God must be getting ready to wrap things up. I'm so confused with all the opinions and differences of beliefs, I don't know up from down. I truly wished I could figure it all out. But who do you believe and who do you follow. I'm following Jesus to best of my ability, but it seems every one wants to show us the way. I'm sorry I was harsh with you on some of my post, I just get frustrated. If the church gets any more liberal will it even really be God's church any more?

What in the world has got you so confused, Brother? That people see things differently than you do? That people here have a different opinion than you? Brother its not the Twilight Zone. Its called a public forum, its not the security of the 4 walls of a church where everybody believes the same thing. You are talking to people from all the across the country and from different nations. Of course, you're gonna hear new things and read differing views. Did you really think everybody in the world sees through your eyes? Brother, if this confuses you, then I'd recommend you praying about being here. You may not be well enough established in your faith to handle the real world.

How long have you been here? Just a few days and already you don't know which ways up and which ways down? Just look up at the ceiling...thats up. Now, look at the floor...thats down. Its that easy. Relax, sit back and enjoy the ride. Don't get excited when people see things a little different than you. Thats called a little thing called life. You said you woke up in the Twilight Zone, No, I think you woke up FROM it. I recall an episode where there was this parallel universe where everydody looked the same, dressed the same, and acted the same. Its seems you've been there. Welcome back to the REAL WORLD!

What do you need to "figure out"? Heres all you need to know... the Bible is true, God is good, and Jesus is coming back soon. Don't worry about figuring things out. Just keep your eyes on the Lord and everything will be fine and dandy.

I haven't seen where anyone is trying to change your mind. Its called the mutual sharing of ideas and opinions, thats all. People don't share your opinion? Get over it! People ain't as "old time holiness" as you? Well, brother welcome to the real world. News flash- I don't agree with some of what Randy Wayne says. I don't agree with some of what Heavenly One says. But...that don't matter. They don't agree with some things I say. But we don't get all confused about it and forget which way up is. No. We don't always agree in our doctrine, but I think we pretty much agree in spirit. And thats enough for me!

The church AIN'T gonna get any more liberal and it will always be His Church. HIS CHURCH. Let Him run it...He's better at it than you and I are. But, some of the people might change. Its called the changing of the times. Theres no need to get frustrated and upset. Roll with it. Just keep following the Lord... but, and heres another news flash for ya- Getting upset everytime someone post something you don't like, ain't following Jesus. He didn't get frustrated, He didn't get confused, and He sure didn't forget which way up was everytime somebody disagreed with Him.. I advised you last night in a PM to lighten up... if you want to be heard here, quit shoutin everybody else down. If you want to people to hear what you gotta say, you'll have to listen to them. You asked a brother a question, when he asked for an explanation, you told him, forget it. Disrespectful with a capital "Dis-". What did the Bible say about having friends? Oh, yeah, something about being friendly. That, my brother, was just not friendly. Its called common curtesy. Your Momma taught you better.

Did you really think everybody in the Apostolic Movement was all cut with the same cookie cutter? Brother, where have you been? The Apostolic Movement looks like a big box of peanut brittle. All shapes and sizes. (some are even a little "nuttier" than others). But, you know something. We might look different, and we might be different, but we're all made out of the same stuff. So, as I said last night- quit trying to force feed your ideas, your opinions, and, yes, you interpretation, on everybody else. And, try to act friendly. At least try.


(These young'ns these days...what are we gonna do with 'em):grumpy

[tv1a]

One of the Bible commentaries I read had a great article about the pharisees. They started out with noble intentions, but it took about 1-2 generations before they begin to lose focus on the spirit of the law and begin to focus on the law. It got to the point they were making laws because God's laws weren't good enough. Flash forward to early 1900's to present. The Bible is correct when it says there is nothing new under the sun.

Do you honestly think that the 'old time way' you speak of is old fashioned or modern compared to the Bible ways? Seriously.

Did the 'old time Apostolic preacher man' speak about 'old time Apostolic preacher men' before say, 1920?

You call them the old landmarks. What were those landmarks called in 1930?

[Brother Price]

tv1a, if you have time, do you think you can post the article? I would love to read it! If it is too long, just give me the info on it, and I will find it!

[OP_Carl]

One Accord,

I admire the spirit and the letter of your previous post. Somebody probably had to do the same thing for me when I first logged on to AFF.

Robert, like me, must live in a part of the country where "Pentecostal" can mean AOG, UPC, ALJC, PAW, and perhaps a few more. It's a generic term that implies aerobic and enthusiastic worship, and means little more than 'not liturgical, and not Catholic.' But in these same areas, Apostolic = Ultra-Conservative. Hence my confusion when I first came here, and possibly, the same for Robert.

[Whole Hearted]

You mean, the ones that didn't exist until 1945??

My family came into the church somewhere around 1925. The landmarks we hold toare in the Word.

[OneAccord]

One Accord,

I admire the spirit and the letter of your previous post. Somebody probably had to do the same thing for me when I first logged on to AFF.

Robert, like me, must live in a part of the country where "Pentecostal" can mean AOG, UPC, ALJC, PAW, and perhaps a few more. It's a generic term that implies aerobic and enthusiastic worship, and means little more than 'not liturgical, and not Catholic.' But in these same areas, Apostolic = Ultra-Conservative. Hence my confusion when I first came here, and possibly, the same for Robert.

Yeah, thats why I sent a PM to him regarding that very thing. I like him, believe he has the makings of a good poster here on AFF- but, needs to back off on the throttle some. His exuberance is good, and I believe he can add to the mixture here. Kinda reminds me of the young preacher that went to a ministers meeting with a new revelation. To him it was something major and he just knew he'd have those preachers sitting on the edge of their seats. One elder told him afterwatds, "Son, we were preaching that when you were still crawlin' around in your diapers". I just don't want him to shoot himself in the foot by alienating himself from everybody. He needs to realize that there are some really good folks here- and some really sharp folks, as well. As he waves his sword around, he would do good to realize others have swords as well. And are pretty good at using them. Kinda like drivin on an LA Freeway. Drive defensively, watch out for the other guy and always buckle up. No one likes a pushy driver, and for sure don't like being cut off. Just flow with the traffic, and mind the road signs, and everything will be smooth sailing.

[dizzyde]

What in the world has got you so confused, Brother? That people see things differently than you do? That people here have a different opinion than you? Brother its not the Twilight Zone. Its called a public forum, its not the security of the 4 walls of a church where everybody believes the same thing. You are talking to people from all the across the country and from different nations. Of course, you're gonna hear new things and read differing views. Did you really think everybody in the world sees through your eyes? Brother, if this confuses you, then I'd recommend you praying about being here. You may not be well enough established in your faith to handle the real world.

How long have you been here? Just a few days and already you don't know which ways up and which ways down? Just look up at the ceiling...thats up. Now, look at the floor...thats down. Its that easy. Relax, sit back and enjoy the ride. Don't get excited when people see things a little different than you. Thats called a little thing called life. You said you woke up in the Twilight Zone, No, I think you woke up FROM it. I recall an episode where there was this parallel universe where everydody looked the same, dressed the same, and acted the same. Its seems you've been there. Welcome back to the REAL WORLD!

What do you need to "figure out"? Heres all you need to know... the Bible is true, God is good, and Jesus is coming back soon. Don't worry about figuring things out. Just keep your eyes on the Lord and everything will be fine and dandy.

I haven't seen where anyone is trying to change your mind. Its called the mutual sharing of ideas and opinions, thats all. People don't share your opinion? Get over it! People ain't as "old time holiness" as you? Well, brother welcome to the real world. News flash- I don't agree with some of what Randy Wayne says. I don't agree with some of what Heavenly One says. But...that don't matter. They don't agree with some things I say. But we don't get all confused about it and forget which way up is. No. We don't always agree in our doctrine, but I think we pretty much agree in spirit. And thats enough for me!

The church AIN'T gonna get any more liberal and it will always be His Church. HIS CHURCH. Let Him run it...He's better at it than you and I are. But, some of the people might change. Its called the changing of the times. Theres no need to get frustrated and upset. Roll with it. Just keep following the Lord... but, and heres another news flash for ya- Getting upset everytime someone post something you don't like, ain't following Jesus. He didn't get frustrated, He didn't get confused, and He sure didn't forget which way up was everytime somebody disagreed with Him.. I advised you last night in a PM to lighten up... if you want to be heard here, quit shoutin everybody else down. If you want to people to hear what you gotta say, you'll have to listen to them. You asked a brother a question, when he asked for an explanation, you told him, forget it. Disrespectful with a capital "Dis-". What did the Bible say about having friends? Oh, yeah, something about being friendly. That, my brother, was just not friendly. Its called common curtesy. Your Momma taught you better.

Did you really think everybody in the Apostolic Movement was all cut with the same cookie cutter? Brother, where have you been? The Apostolic Movement looks like a big box of peanut brittle. All shapes and sizes. (some are even a little "nuttier" than others). But, you know something. We might look different, and we might be different, but we're all made out of the same stuff. So, as I said last night- quit trying to force feed your ideas, your opinions, and, yes, you interpretation, on everybody else. And, try to act friendly. At least try.


(These young'ns these days...what are we gonna do with 'em):grumpy

Wow, OA, what were you doing in my head, those are MY thoughts!! LOL!! Good job!! :yourock

[robert]

YOU GUYS are too kind to me. Thanks for making me feel so welcome. The kid gloves are off now. Guess time for me to learn who's in charge. Ya enjoy each other and don't fret another robert will come by soon and ya can resume your fun. Your discussions seem an awful lot like arguing to me.:) I'm going to be like one of my favorite gospel songs...I'll fly away old glory...I'll fly away...

[simplyme]

Raised UPC and love my past and all of the teaching and experiences , but must still agree that there is not always proper emphasis on what I consider the basics. I daresay everyone could use the Baptist foundation and then add the Acts 2:38 experience and we would produce healthier Christians.
In the natural the government has RDA standards for nutrition, but these are based on everyone first consuming a proper diet and -------- then these are the required nutrients. But we as Americans do not eat all of the necessary fruits and veggies, so the graph is faulty.

In the spiritual, we put all of the focus on Acts 2:38, but this is with the assumption that we have the prior basic scriptural knowledge. I truly think the UPC glosses over some of the preliminary steps.

Nothing wrong with learning to crawl before we walk.

That is what happened and how, with ME..adding being catholic at birth (allegedly) then Baptist in mid-20's, Apostolic early 40's, but hey - I'm HERE! ;) .. and as quoted by commonsense (luv that username) as a:
"Healthier Christian".
:bliss
THANK YOU., THANKYOU VERY MUCH.but most of all
THANK YOU JESUS!!

[OneAccord]

YOU GUYS are too kind to me. Thanks for making me feel so welcome. The kid gloves are off now. Guess time for me to learn who's in charge. Ya enjoy each other and don't fret another robert will come by soon and ya can resume your fun. Your discussions seem an awful lot like arguing to me.:) I'm going to be like one of my favorite gospel songs...I'll fly away old glory...I'll fly away...


Brother Robert, as always, Jesus is in charge. Nothing I posted was in fun, or to ridicule you in any way. I think everyone here will tell you I'm not about that. As I said here (and to you in PM) you can be an asset to this forum. I don't argue and I don't fuss. I'm one of the few here that will tell you that I do not believe in debating with a brother over the Scriptures. But, and I mean this with respect, it seems you were the first to pull the gloves off. I'm sorry you feel the need to fly the coop. Its been good knowing you even for a short time.

[Fiyahstarter]

The Apostolic Movement looks like a big box of peanut brittle. All shapes and sizes. (some are even a little "nuttier" than others). But, you know something. We might look different, and we might be different, but we're all made out of the same stuff.

AMEN this!!!

[HeavenlyOne]

YOU GUYS are too kind to me. Thanks for making me feel so welcome. The kid gloves are off now. Guess time for me to learn who's in charge. Ya enjoy each other and don't fret another robert will come by soon and ya can resume your fun. Your discussions seem an awful lot like arguing to me.:) I'm going to be like one of my favorite gospel songs...I'll fly away old glory...I'll fly away...

It's too bad that you weren't interested in honest discussion. There are a lot of questions I posed that remain unanswered....you see, other 'robert's have been here before you...they also left because they weren't able to answer.

[Dan'D]

You know what RandyWayne sometimes I think I've woke up in the twilight zone. I wonder what Jesus thinks of all the different ways man has interpretted his word. Surely He never intended for so much controversy, even though He knew it would happen. God must be getting ready to wrap things up. I'm so confused with all the opinions and differences of beliefs, I don't know up from down. I truly wished I could figure it all out. But who do you believe and who do you follow. I'm following Jesus to best of my ability, but it seems every one wants to show us the way. I'm sorry I was harsh with you on some of my post, I just get frustrated. If the church gets any more liberal will it even really be God's church any more?

Your last line is my feeling why WPF was started. Will it help or hinder.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

AMEN this!!!

Were suppose to look different from the world not like the world.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

What in the world has got you so confused, Brother? That people see things differently than you do? That people here have a different opinion than you? Brother its not the Twilight Zone. Its called a public forum, its not the security of the 4 walls of a church where everybody believes the same thing. You are talking to people from all the across the country and from different nations. Of course, you're gonna hear new things and read differing views. Did you really think everybody in the world sees through your eyes? Brother, if this confuses you, then I'd recommend you praying about being here. You may not be well enough established in your faith to handle the real world.

How long have you been here? Just a few days and already you don't know which ways up and which ways down? Just look up at the ceiling...thats up. Now, look at the floor...thats down. Its that easy. Relax, sit back and enjoy the ride. Don't get excited when people see things a little different than you. Thats called a little thing called life. You said you woke up in the Twilight Zone, No, I think you woke up FROM it. I recall an episode where there was this parallel universe where everydody looked the same, dressed the same, and acted the same. Its seems you've been there. Welcome back to the REAL WORLD!

What do you need to "figure out"? Heres all you need to know... the Bible is true, God is good, and Jesus is coming back soon. Don't worry about figuring things out. Just keep your eyes on the Lord and everything will be fine and dandy.

I haven't seen where anyone is trying to change your mind. Its called the mutual sharing of ideas and opinions, thats all. People don't share your opinion? Get over it! People ain't as "old time holiness" as you? Well, brother welcome to the real world. News flash- I don't agree with some of what Randy Wayne says. I don't agree with some of what Heavenly One says. But...that don't matter. They don't agree with some things I say. But we don't get all confused about it and forget which way up is. No. We don't always agree in our doctrine, but I think we pretty much agree in spirit. And thats enough for me!

The church AIN'T gonna get any more liberal and it will always be His Church. HIS CHURCH. Let Him run it...He's better at it than you and I are. But, some of the people might change. Its called the changing of the times. Theres no need to get frustrated and upset. Roll with it. Just keep following the Lord... but, and heres another news flash for ya- Getting upset everytime someone post something you don't like, ain't following Jesus. He didn't get frustrated, He didn't get confused, and He sure didn't forget which way up was everytime somebody disagreed with Him.. I advised you last night in a PM to lighten up... if you want to be heard here, quit shoutin everybody else down. If you want to people to hear what you gotta say, you'll have to listen to them. You asked a brother a question, when he asked for an explanation, you told him, forget it. Disrespectful with a capital "Dis-". What did the Bible say about having friends? Oh, yeah, something about being friendly. That, my brother, was just not friendly. Its called common curtesy. Your Momma taught you better.

Did you really think everybody in the Apostolic Movement was all cut with the same cookie cutter? Brother, where have you been? The Apostolic Movement looks like a big box of peanut brittle. All shapes and sizes. (some are even a little "nuttier" than others). But, you know something. We might look different, and we might be different, but we're all made out of the same stuff. So, as I said last night- quit trying to force feed your ideas, your opinions, and, yes, you interpretation, on everybody else. And, try to act friendly. At least try.


(These young'ns these days...what are we gonna do with 'em):grumpy

Were suppose to look different from the world not like the world.

Dan'D

[WyoPastor]

Were suppose to look different from the world not like the world.

Dan'D

I thought we were supposed to be different, not just look different.
If we would worry as much about what's inside our people as what they look like, we wouldn't have to worry so much about what they look like.

[HeavenlyOne]

Were suppose to look different from the world not like the world.

Dan'D

I assume you are a man.

If so, please tell me how you dress differently than other men.

And don't use the extremes like men at the beach or men in tight clothing. Most men doesn't dress that way.

[HeavenlyOne]

I thought we were supposed to be different, not just look different.
If we would worry as much about what's inside our people as what they look like, we wouldn't have to worry so much about what they look like.

BINGO! (oops, that's a Catholic thing, isn't it?)

You have the POTD!

(Post Of The Day)

[tv1a]

We are to separated, not segregated.

Were suppose to look different from the world not like the world.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

I assume you are a man.

If so, please tell me how you dress differently than other men.

And don't use the extremes like men at the beach or men in tight clothing. Most men doesn't dress that way.

Men as well as women don't wear shorts, short sleeves, jewelry, toupes or hair pieces, change hair color, makeup. Women don't cut their hair and men don't have long hair, women don't wear pants.

Dan'D

[OneAccord]

Were suppose to look different from the world not like the world.

Dan'D

Actually-

Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

2Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

I haven't seen where we're not suppose to look like the world. But my post had nothing to do with "looking like the world" It had to do with being different from each other.

[Dan'D]

I thought we were supposed to be different, not just look different.
If we would worry as much about what's inside our people as what they look like, we wouldn't have to worry so much about what they look like.

Good point. But when the inside is right with God we will want the outside to look right also.

Dan'D

[HeavenlyOne]

Men as well as women don't wear shorts, short sleeves, jewelry, toupes or hair pieces, change hair color, makeup. Women don't cut their hair and men don't have long hair, women don't wear pants.

Dan'D

You said we should look different.

I'm asking how you look different, not what you don't wear. I know lots of men who don't wear shorts, short sleeves (especially this time of year!), jewelry, toupes, colored hair, long hair, or makeup (thank God!).

If I were to see you in a mall, would I be able to pick you out as Apostolic? Everyone knows you can pick out the women, but why can't the men be picked out?

[HeavenlyOne]

Good point. But when the inside is right with God we will want the outside to look right also.

Dan'D

This I completely agree with!

[Dan'D]

Actually-

Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

2Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

I haven't seen where we're not suppose to look like the world. But my post had nothing to do with "looking like the world" It had to do with being different from each other.


Amen

Dan'D

[OneAccord]

Men as well as women don't wear shorts, short sleeves, jewelry, toupes or hair pieces, change hair color, makeup. Women don't cut their hair and men don't have long hair, women don't wear pants.

Dan'D

Women aren't to cut their hair under any circumstances? I also noticed you didn't mention anything against women wearing wigs. If men cannot wear toupees, why can women wear wigs (if that is permissible)?

[bkstokes]

Men as well as women don't wear shorts, short sleeves, jewelry, toupes or hair pieces, change hair color, makeup. Women don't cut their hair and men don't have long hair, women don't wear pants.

Dan'D

Dan D

Have you ever done a contextual study of Duet 22 and seen what seperate dress actually consisted of? Seperate dress was basically different underpants (underwear) and the women's robe was more adorned then the men's robe. However, they both wore robes.

[bkstokes]

I can say of assurity that my wife wears different dress then I do. However, my wife does not always wear a dress. Also shamefacedness in the original greek refers to the character of a person. In others words we should not seek to be proud but humble.

[Dan'D]

You said we should look different.

I'm asking how you look different, not what you don't wear. I know lots of men who don't wear shorts, short sleeves (especially this time of year!), jewelry, toupes, colored hair, long hair, or makeup (thank God!).

If I were to see you in a mall, would I be able to pick you out as Apostolic? Everyone knows you can pick out the women, but why can't the men be picked out?

At the mall it is easier to pick out a Apostolic man now than it was 20 years ago. because they are accessorizing more like women. which fits into the worlds idea of unisex.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

Women aren't to cut their hair under any circumstances? I also noticed you didn't mention anything against women wearing wigs. If men cannot wear toupees, why can women wear wigs (if that is permissible)?

My mistake - A women should not wear a wig

Dan'D

[chosenbyone]

The Apostolic Movement looks like a big box of peanut brittle. All shapes and sizes. (some are even a little "nuttier" than others). But, you know something. We might look different, and we might be different, but we're all made out of the same stuff. try.

I loved this analogy, brother!:woot

[OneAccord]

My mistake - A women should not wear a wig

Dan'D

Well, my wife cut her hair. And she wore a wig. Sorry she didn't meet YOUR standards. Note as I said, YOUR STANDARD. Not the Bibles. Yours.

Oh, I forgot to say. She had cancer. Radiation and Chemo destroyed her hair. So she cut off.. no shaved ... what was left of her her hair and we bought her a wig. Since this is, at least a your view, a salvational issue, could you explain her spiritual condition? Or, is there a loop hole in YOUR Standads is such cases?

[RandyWayne]

My wife cuts her hair about once a month. I would like her hair longer but when I mention it I get the "your not the one who has to get ready in the morning" response.

[Neck]

Women aren't to cut their hair under any circumstances? I also noticed you didn't mention anything against women wearing wigs. If men cannot wear toupees, why can women wear wigs (if that is permissible)?


What again is the salvational issue that will be waged against a woman for cutting her hair?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not pay their tithe to the penney?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not witness?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not believe in the Rapture as being literal?

Will a saint go to hell if they are baptized in Jesus name after they believe they are saved?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not give away one coat if they have 2 and see a person in need?

Will a saint go to hell if they see a child suffering and then will not help?

Will a saint go to hell for speaking ill against a brother or sister?

Will a saint go to hell for being covetous of anothers gifts or blessings?

If a woman is not cutting her hair and not actively doing many of the things above she might as well shave her head.

because the adorning of standards does not save you...

I could go on and on.

Actions speak much louder than how you dress and present yourself in the public mirror for the church ladies to evaluate.

I would address character first to build christians and not dress to hide character.

I think the Church as I knew it. (UPCI)

Mandated standards without the character.

The character was measured by how well a person adopted that pastor's flavor of control.

The more on the fringe a pastor would take the congregation the more he could evaluate those who were in total submission to his authority.

Many times not preaching the simple character of a Christian seeking to be Christ like.

They most often preached dress as holiness long before many of the new saints could change their character from the flaws of sin...

Many would then try to take on the robe of standards as a way of grading their own commitment to God.

When they would fall short they took on the nature of Spiritual
self-depredation.

When other so called perfect saints would give them that look.

It caused doubt to rise up in their hearts.

I am just not good enough look at me...

When all along they should have been working on the attributes of God.

Why do many new saints in the church fail in our ranks?

Because the decipleship classes focus on how they should dress first.

The second thing they are taught is tithing.

If they are not paying then they are not in complete submission.

No they may have their family outside the church telling that paying their tithe is stupid.

It might take them time to warm up to these new ideas in their lives.

But pastors and board members view them as weak.

Judge the progress of their character and growth and not their surrender to your point system.

So the other UPCI church across town does not think that the standards are not being preached at my church...

It is not the preaching of standards that I want to correct.

It is the mandate of standards before the character teaching.

I know you will tell me that the character is a given and is taught..

I just have never seen the importance first over church standards...

[chosenbyone]

My mistake - A women should not wear a wig

Dan'D

You should contact Anthony in LA, so he can inform his mother VM that she shouldn't wear her wig anymore. I am sure he would appreciate your words of wisdom and direction regarding this matter. :lol

[OneAccord]

Brother Eckstadt,

Without reading your entire post, the answer is, I don't know what a woman trimming her hair or wearing a wig has to do with salvation. Personally, I can answer with two words: Absolutely NOTHING.

[Dan'D]

Well, my wife cut her hair. And she wore a wig. Sorry she didn't meet YOUR standards. Note as I said, YOUR STANDARD. Not the Bibles. Yours.

Oh, I forgot to say. She had cancer. Radiation and Chemo destroyed her hair. So she cut off.. no shaved ... what was left of her her hair and we bought her a wig. Since this is, at least a your view, a salvational issue, could you explain her spiritual condition? Or, is there a loop hole in YOUR Standads is such cases?

She obviously has extinuating sirsumstance.. In your wife case she did not choose this.

A women cutting her hair just for cutting her hair is a Bible issue.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

Brother, without reading your entire post, the answer is, I don't know what a woman trimming her hair or wearing a wig has to do with salvation. Personally, I can answer with two words: Absolutely NOTHING.

Is trimming not cutting.

Cutting the hair on a women is a Bible issue. not my words but the Bible's

Wearing a wig unless she had cancer is a problem.

Dan'D

[OneAccord]

I loved this analogy, brother!:woot

Glad you liked my Peanut Brittle analogy. It seems, in light of some of what I read here tonight, I was speaking "prophetically". Some really are nuttier than others.

[CC1]

Is trimming not cutting.

Cutting the hair on a women is a Bible issue. not my words but the Bible's

Wearing a wig unless she had cancer is a problem.

Dan'D

I would love to see you show Bible for someone not wearing a wig. It is no different than using hairspray or wearing deoderant or for women wearing panty hose.

[Dan'D]

What again is the salvational issue that will be waged against a woman for cutting her hair?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not pay their tithe to the penney?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not witness?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not believe in the Rapture as being literal?

Will a saint go to hell if they are baptized in Jesus name after they believe they are saved?

Will a saint go to hell if they do not give away one coat if they have 2 and see a person in need?

Will a saint go to hell if they see a child suffering and then will not help?

Will a saint go to hell for speaking ill against a brother or sister?

Will a saint go to hell for being covetous of anothers gifts or blessings?

If a woman is not cutting her hair and not actively doing many of the things above she might as well shave her head.

because the adorning of standards does not save you...

I could go on and on.

Actions speak much louder than how you dress and present yourself in the public mirror for the church ladies to evaluate.

I would address character first to build christians and not dress to hide character.

I think the Church as I knew it. (UPCI)

Mandated standards without the character.

The character was measured by how well a person adopted that pastor's flavor of control.

The more on the fringe a pastor would take the congregation the more he could evaluate those who were in total submission to his authority.

Many times not preaching the simple character of a Christian seeking to be Christ like.

They most often preached dress as holiness long before many of the new saints could change their character from the flaws of sin...

Many would then try to take on the robe of standards as a way of grading their own commitment to God.

When they would fall short they took on the nature of Spiritual
self-depredation.

When other so called perfect saints would give them that look.

It caused doubt to rise up in their hearts.

I am just not good enough look at me...

When all along they should have been working on the attributes of God.

Why do many new saints in the church fail in our ranks?

Because the decipleship classes focus on how they should dress first.

The second thing they are taught is tithing.

If they are not paying then they are not in complete submission.

No they may have their family outside the church telling that paying their tithe is stupid.

It might take them time to warm up to these new ideas in their lives.

But pastors and board members view them as weak.

Judge the progress of their character and growth and not their surrender to your point system.

So the other UPCI church across town does not think that the standards are not being preached at my church...

It is not the preaching of standards that I want to correct.

It is the mandate of standards before the character teaching.

I know you will tell me that the character is a given and is taught..

I just have never seen the importance first over church standards...

It takes both standards & character or the transformation is not complete.

If we allow God to take care of the inside we will want to take care of the outside. In that order.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

I would love to see you show Bible for someone not wearing a wig. It is no different than using hairspray or wearing deoderant or for women wearing panty hose.

Wig - Deoderant / Hair spray my what a stretch.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

My wife cuts her hair about once a month. I would like her hair longer but when I mention it I get the "your not the one who has to get ready in the morning" response.

Not my words but the Bible's.
Dan'D

[OneAccord]

Is trimming not cutting.

Cutting the hair on a women is a Bible issue. not my words but the Bible's

Wearing a wig unless she had cancer is a problem.

Dan'D

Thats what I love about these rigid, inflexible STANDARDS of man. They are as flimsy as the loopholes they are made of. "A woman cannot wear a wig, unless..." Where in the world (because I already know it didn't come from the Bible) do you get that women are forbidden to wear a wig... unless...of course.... (Mustn't forget the ever present loophole).

Sorry for the arguing. Its really unbecoming. Just go ahead and live by YOUR standards and loopholes. Just glad I don't have to live by them.

[Dan'D]

You should contact Anthony in LA, so he can inform his mother VM that she shouldn't wear her wig anymore. I am sure he would appreciate your words of wisdom and direction regarding this matter. :lol

Let me guess, Cancer.

Lets get real / her hair lost was not on her own accord.
Dan'D

[OneAccord]

Spouting a "standard" that absolutely no basis in the Word of God then saying "Lets get real". Please. Lets do. I'm through.

[Dan'D]

Thats what I love about these rigid, inflexible STANDARDS of man. They are as flimsy as the loopholes they are made of. "A woman cannot wear a wig, unless..." Where in the world (because I already know it didn't come from the Bible) do you get that women are forbidden to wear a wig... unless...of course.... (Mustn't forget the ever present loophole).

Sorry for the arguing. Its really unbecoming. Just go ahead and live by YOUR standards and loopholes. Just glad I don't have to live by them.

A women not cutting her hair is in the Bible so your point is. If she lost her hair because she had cancer she could not wear a wig.

Standards that are in the Bible are one thing. Loopholes does not depend on what I say but between her, her pastor and God.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

Spouting a "standard" that absolutely no basis in the Word of God then saying "Lets get real". Please. Lets do. I'm through.

Hair loss and hair cut is two different things.

a wig because of Hair loss is really not a question for me but between that person, her pastor and God.

Dan'D

[crakjak]

Let me see what has changed...
The Hebrew men wore beards...
The Hebrew men wore robes with blue fringes
The Hebrew men wore sandals...

John dresses in camel’s hair...ate locust and wild honey...

Jesus took a whip to the church of His day...

Paul made a Nazarite vow...


Well to name a few standards...

Sister, don't go confusing us with truth and understanding, it might just upset the applecart here.....!:reaction LOL

[OneAccord]

My mistake - A women should not wear a wig

Wearing a wig unless she had cancer is a problem.

If she lost her hair because she had cancer she could not wear a wig.

A wig because of Hair loss is really not a question for me but between that person, her pastor and God.

Brother, I don't mean to appear argumentative but here are you quotes, in the order in which you posted them. Read them carefully. Now...do you notice anything missing? Like, maybe a single verse of Scripture to substaniate your position.

No. 1 appears very absolute. A point blank statement with no biblical foundation.

No. 2 seems to say wearing a wig is a problem, unless there is a loophole. By the way, who is a problem for?

No. 3 has to be a typo, because it makes no sense and contradicts No. 2.

And No. 4 makes it clear you are not the authority on the subject (which seems to contradict the assertion made in No. 1.)

Brother, two things: Consistency and at least one verse to substaniate this standard. A part of a verse. Give us something from the Bible that proves this to be a Standard holiness men and women need to adhere to.

[simplyme]

I thought most everyone would post the answer as clothes but sorry you are wrong. It had nothing to do with modesty but spiritual safety. Gen 2:16 - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But Adam (the watchman and husbandman of the garden) says:Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Who added the “touch it”? Adam did! Sometime Pastors have to lead as the Spirit leads them. And when we do this it shouldn’t be because of tradition but of love for their soul
Hey I like this! Someone finally hit upon a point I have pondered and agreed with based partly on a video study I found on a church (can't remember which one) site taught by a pastors wife, and it was awesome., Very insightful, the gist was that we were/are to see 'standards' as a sort of safety net, setting boundaries that we should not cross in order to guard our souls from venturing too far off into 'the world' and its temptations, dangers, etc., something like that., I have been wanting to find that study again, and perhaps teach it to the youth at church, or even the new convert ladies, it was that good a study I think most anyone could gain from this, some new understanding that is helpful to them in their walk with Jesus.
The "touch it" [or possibly don't touch it/don't cross that line] set some sort of boundary or borderline not to venture past, as it would be one step closer to eating it.(fruit) Evidently Adam had a higher insight of understanding what GOD meant when he included that they should not even 'touch it'..

Another quick analogy of "dont touch it" - an alcoholic is to avoid that first drink, advised to not touch a drink, it would be one step closer to actually drinking it., same with a drug addict, or anyone with some vise or addiction it could even be FOOD, lol., each must avoid the first 'touch'.of that which is forbidden, if conquering that addiction is ever to be obtained.

[chosenbyone]

Let me guess, Cancer.

Lets get real / her hair lost was not on her own accord.
Dan'D

If a woman was to cross your path who wore a wig, should she be required to carry her medical records to prove that wearing that wig was due to an illness? Why would you place such an undue burden on someone?


Your posts have shown that your argument was superficial and ungodly! Goodnight!!!

[tv1a]

There is a wide spectrum of valid definitions on the right look.

Good point. But when the inside is right with God we will want the outside to look right also.

Dan'D

[tv1a]

Would you expect anything less from a group who says television is bad but internet is okay?

Legalism is a cesspool of loopholes.

Thats what I love about these rigid, inflexible STANDARDS of man. They are as flimsy as the loopholes they are made of. "A woman cannot wear a wig, unless..." Where in the world (because I already know it didn't come from the Bible) do you get that women are forbidden to wear a wig... unless...of course.... (Mustn't forget the ever present loophole).

Sorry for the arguing. Its really unbecoming. Just go ahead and live by YOUR standards and loopholes. Just glad I don't have to live by them.

[tv1a]

The apostolic man is the guy you see at wal-mart with the long sleeve white shirt with enough grease in his hair to lube a semi.

You said we should look different.

I'm asking how you look different, not what you don't wear. I know lots of men who don't wear shorts, short sleeves (especially this time of year!), jewelry, toupes, colored hair, long hair, or makeup (thank God!).

If I were to see you in a mall, would I be able to pick you out as Apostolic? Everyone knows you can pick out the women, but why can't the men be picked out?

[Brother Price]

Standards of holiness are nothing more than man's attempt to achieve what Christ gave us at Calvary. It is an attempt to be holy, when Christ MADE us holy through the shedding of His Blood. What we do with our lives afterwards is to continue in that which Christ gave us. Doing so involves modesty, humility, and just being a man/woman with a right heart.

We need to quit standards and start realizing modesty and a walk after the heart of God. This is not in dress, but in having a right heart. Most 'liberals' have a good spirit, a right heart, are submissive, and show great love. Their 'standards' might make one condemn them to Hell, but Christ will welcome them into His glory.

[tv1a]

Here is a question that legalists has never been able answer. The average acceptable length of a woman's skirt is usually 2-4 inches below the knee. That means the shin is exposed. Why is okay for a woman to expose her shin, but it is a sin for a man to expose his shin? Why not apply the same rule for both sexes?


Men as well as women don't wear shorts, short sleeves, jewelry, toupes or hair pieces, change hair color, makeup. Women don't cut their hair and men don't have long hair, women don't wear pants.

Dan'D

[JosephConroy]

Let me see what has changed...
The Hebrew men wore beards...
The Hebrew men wore robes with blue fringes
The Hebrew men wore sandals...

John dresses in camel’s hair...ate locust and wild honey...

Jesus took a whip to the church of His day...

Paul made a Nazarite vow...


Well to name a few standards...


SISTER ALVEAR!!!!!!

I am shocked!!! Shocked I say!!!! Heresy!! I couldn't believe it when I read this!!! My head is spinnin'!

(Although taking the whip to church part is something I might consider! After all you do know that Jesus told Peter "If you love me BEAT my sheep!"

Your friend
Brother Joseph Conroy

[Fiyahstarter]

If the church gets any more liberal will it even really be God's church any more?

Do you believe it to be God's church NOW?

I see a lot of churches as being nothing more than dressing people up and telling them what to do...perverting the gospel with personal traditions.

"Eat meat, don't eat meat" ... "wear this, don't wear that" ... "wear one ring, not two" ... "wear your hair up, lest that bedroom hair turn me on, you Jezebel" ... "Nice red dress you have on, does your husband call you his lady in red???" ... "If you don't come to church everytime the doors are open, you don't love Jesus" ... "Your children play little league. That is sinful!" ... "Don't read Harry Potter" ... "TV is a devil box" ... "Don't listen to that music. It's not Christian. (But there are no words to it, it's just music. Classic at that.) Doesn't matter... it doesn't edify God and therefore a waste of time." ... wash your hands before you eat, you sinner!

SOMEBODY LET ME OFF OF THIS MERRY-GO-ROUND CALLED RELIGION!

This is not spreading the Gospel! This is man's hunger for power and control!

Take heed, Pharisees. God sees and is not happy. You do more to destroy the Kingdom than the devil ever thought of doing.

[Sister Alvear]

SISTER ALVEAR!!!!!!

I am shocked!!! Shocked I say!!!! Heresy!! I couldn't believe it when I read this!!! My head is spinnin'!

(Although taking the whip to church part is something I might consider! After all you do know that Jesus told Peter "If you love me BEAT my sheep!"

Your friend
Brother Joseph Conroy

they know I am just joking....

[Sister Alvear]

Hey, friend some of these know me personally and know I like to tease ...they have all been to my pictures ank know how we teach...love you...keep up the good work...

[WyoPastor]

Men as well as women don't wear shorts, short sleeves, . . .

Dan'D

Come on get real - don't wear short sleeves. I must be headed to Hell then. I wear short sleeves to work every day. I work around machinery that long sleeves would be dangerous, so that may be another one of those pesky loopholes.

But actually in the summer time I wear short sleeves most of the time. I have a friend who has a personal conviction about short sleeve because of tatoos before he came in the church and that I understand.

I would love to see scripture for a ban on short sleeves.

[Neck]

It takes both standards & character or the transformation is not complete.

If we allow God to take care of the inside we will want to take care of the outside. In that order.

Dan'D

As I stated before. Standards are so impressed upon.

Most folks will list standards ahead of Character.

As you did in your reply.

Spiritual character should be the first thing taught and that would if standards are the Noah's ark of today.

Bring about the change in much more folks.

Then a don't and do list.

In most churches they should print up a do and don't list with expected progress and goals towards standard bearing.

Because they are so important to the measurement of one's salvation.

Standards is the sole reason many are not hearing the voice of God.

Either because they are cheating and feel the conviction of deceit.

Or they are so proud that they feel that they are walking already on streets of Gold.

While folks in their church are hurting and need help.

Get a conviction to win the lost and be Godly minded to hear the voice of God to help those around you.

That is getting close to God and his Holiness.

[OneAccord]

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m75/OneAccord_2006/C-Jesus20Set20The20Standard20Follow.gif

[Mrs. LPW]

Do you believe it to be God's church NOW?

I see a lot of churches as being nothing more than dressing people up and telling them what to do...perverting the gospel with personal traditions.

"Eat meat, don't eat meat" ... "wear this, don't wear that" ... "wear one ring, not two" ... "wear your hair up, lest that bedroom hair turn me on, you Jezebel" ... "Nice red dress you have on, does your husband call you his lady in red???" ... "If you don't come to church everytime the doors are open, you don't love Jesus" ... "Your children play little league. That is sinful!" ... "Don't read Harry Potter" ... "TV is a devil box" ... "Don't listen to that music. It's not Christian. (But there are no words to it, it's just music. Classic at that.) Doesn't matter... it doesn't edify God and therefore a waste of time." ... wash your hands before you eat, you sinner!

SOMEBODY LET ME OFF OF THIS MERRY-GO-ROUND CALLED RELIGION!

This is not spreading the Gospel! This is man's hunger for power and control!

Take heed, Pharisees. God sees and is not happy. You do more to destroy the Kingdom than the devil ever thought of doing.


Not a sin not to do this, just disgusting. :)

[Blaylock]

Good point. But when the inside is right with God we will want the outside to look right also.

Dan'D

Let me start by saying that I am a Pastor that believes in holiness and teaches on holiness. But the statement that some Apostolic's make like this is ridiculous. When someone has found the biblical salvation plan and followed it to the letter they don’t automatically start to follow to the letter not cutting their hair not wearing pants ...etc. They must be taught! Some of the things we teach are biblical and some are man given to keep us from hurting ourselves. Being right on the inside is about loving Spiritual Authority. Some teach things others don’t. We shouldn’t run others down for teaching differently. They are following their authority. I like the statement made about the Apostolic church is like peanut brittle. We are all nutty at times

[RandyWayne]

Come on get real - don't wear short sleeves. I must be headed to Hell then. I wear short sleeves to work every day. I work around machinery that long sleeves would be dangerous, so that may be another one of those pesky loopholes.

But actually in the summer time I wear short sleeves most of the time. I have a friend who has a personal conviction about short sleeve because of tatoos before he came in the church and that I understand.

I would love to see scripture for a ban on short sleeves.

You can literally come up with a scriptural ban for anything.
It requires a bit (or a lot) of hoop jumping and more then a couple of translations back and forth, but it can be great fun!

[scotty]

Bro. Randy is right, someone gave scripture for Santa Claus on one of these threads.

Standards are there. They are in the bible. They are request that have been made of us by God. I don't believe that our job is to cram them down peoples throats. I shudder at the word "teach" them the standards. Yes, teach them the scripture about all the standards and tell them to pray about it.
Once you recieve the Holy Ghost and truly desire to live for God , He will convict you in the manner He wants you to live.

Are the standards sin? No. Would your disobedience to conviction of a standard be sin? Weeeeelllllllllllllll.???

[Ferd]

Bro. Randy is right, someone gave scripture for Santa Claus on one of these threads.

Standards are there. They are in the bible. They are request that have been made of us by God. I don't believe that our job is to cram them down peoples throats. I shudder at the word "teach" them the standards. Yes, teach them the scripture about all the standards and tell them to pray about it.
Once you recieve the Holy Ghost and truly desire to live for God , He will convict you in the manner He wants you to live.

Are the standards sin? No. Would your disobedience to conviction of a standard be sin? Weeeeelllllllllllllll.???

I agree Scotty.

least we forget, the following is the opening salvo from Paul in the most hated chapter of the bible:


1 Corinthians 11
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
Paul was NOT mincing words here. this was not a "well, if you think its best" kind of comment.

there are some things in the bible that Chiristians simply MUST do. They arent up for debate "is this salvational" that isnt even the question.

Paul used the word "Ordinance" or rule, or law. it doesnt matter. we can use the term standard but honestly our word is a bit weak. Paul was much more clear.

[tv1a]

The passage you highlighted states Paul delivered the ordinances. That scripture doesn't give legalists the right to make subjective rules heaven or hell issues. Paul established principles. Legalism establishes rules.

From what I've read, no one questions standards. The issue is the reprocussion of inconsistent subjective standards.

I agree Scotty.

least we forget, the following is the opening salvo from Paul in the most hated chapter of the bible:


1 Corinthians 11
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
Paul was NOT mincing words here. this was not a "well, if you think its best" kind of comment.

there are some things in the bible that Chiristians simply MUST do. They arent up for debate "is this salvational" that isnt even the question.

Paul used the word "Ordinance" or rule, or law. it doesnt matter. we can use the term standard but honestly our word is a bit weak. Paul was much more clear.

[simplyme]

Ordiances are 'the law' where I live anyway if I break one, I have to pay a price., they don't just say "well if you think its a good idea, do it-if you don't like it you don't have to comply"., they are guidelines that every citizen here must follow..or else! Whatever Paul delivered I see that if I decide to ignore, I must pay a price WHAT that is I can't rightly say., some might consider those ordinaces to definitely be 'heaven or hell' but I can't say that I would go THAT far., only that there has to be repercussions, and surely whatever they are or would be, can't be pleasant.

[Pressing-On]

I agree Scotty.

least we forget, the following is the opening salvo from Paul in the most hated chapter of the bible:


1 Corinthians 11
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
Paul was NOT mincing words here. this was not a "well, if you think its best" kind of comment.

there are some things in the bible that Chiristians simply MUST do. They arent up for debate "is this salvational" that isnt even the question.

Paul used the word "Ordinance" or rule, or law. it doesnt matter. we can use the term standard but honestly our word is a bit weak. Paul was much more clear.
Good post, Ferd. I believe the ordinances were cultural and they can change.

I believe it was okay for preachers to be worried about their woman wearing "red" when it was so associated with a prostitute. At one time it was! BUT, when that changed, they shouldn't have carried that further.

If we are looking for everything to be spelled out in the Word of God - it isn't going to happen. We use wisdom.

One example would be jewelry. Does it look decent or ladylike for a women, in America, to have a ring in her upper lip? lol Things just need to make sense. Does that make all jewelry a sin? No, it doesn't.

Oh my lord, I just posted on a standards thread. What am I thinking?!!!!! Arghhhhh! lol

[OneAccord]

I don't have a problem with rules. Or laws. Ordinances or standards. I believe in them. Life would be chaos without them. But, in US law, every law has to have a basis. Ordinances, in order to be enforceable, must have a foundation. That foundation and/or rule must be established on the basis of, ultimately the US Constitution. A city ordinace can be passed based on the city charter, but, if challenged, that ordinance must pass the Constitution test. Churches, organizations can and do, pass resolutions and "standards" everyday. Those resolutions and standards are based on their articles of faith or manual. And that is fine for those within that church or organization. But, can that resolution or standards pass the "Constitution test?" If challenged, can that ordinance pass the Bible tests? Is it enforceable on Bible grounds? Is it in the Bible?

I don't live by what we have come to commonly define as "standards". I live by, or at least try to, Christian principles that are, in my veiw, entirely based on the Bible and are, therefore enforceable. I have to live by those principles if I am to abide within the Law. Those principles are not the Law. They are the things I do, or do not do, to abide by the Law or Word.

Again, I don't have a problem with whatever this shifting thing is we call "Standards" But, if I am "compelled" to live by them I must know that the Standard can and does pass the Bible tests. "Standards", like the prohibition against beards or women wearing wigs, unless there are circumstances (i.e, loopholes) aren't always enforcable, because they do not (as evidenced by Dan'D's failure to provide Scripture) pass the Bible test. They are unenforceable as far as the Bible is concerned. The same can be said for many "standards". Pulling a verse out of context, stringing obscure, ambigious Scriptures together like Christmas lights, does not necessarily validate the standard as Bible based either. Standards or, more correctly, "godly principles", are not hard to see in the Scripture. You don't have to pull out the Greek and Hebrew lexicons to find them. They are there, hidden in plain sight.. And we've got plenty of them... we don't need to create more, we do good to handle what we've got.

[Sister Alvear]

Bible Standards are our protection.

[Sister Alvear]

Godly living will be noticed by all....

[dizzyde]

Good post, Ferd. I believe the ordinances were cultural and they can change.

I believe it was okay for preachers to be worried about their woman wearing "red" when it was so associated with a prostitute. At one time it was! BUT, when that changed, they shouldn't have carried that further.

If we are looking for everything to be spelled out in the Word of God - it isn't going to happen. We use wisdom.

One example would be jewelry. Does it look decent or ladylike for a women, in America, to have a ring in her upper lip? lol Things just need to make sense. Does that make all jewelry a sin? No, it doesn't.

Oh my lord, I just posted on a standards thread. What am I thinking?!!!!! Arghhhhh! lol

You know, it's funny, I just recently had a conversation with my dad about this very topic. I wanted to know what his opinion was, on the issues of when and where to draw the boundary lines, and at what point do you stop and reevaluate things in context with where society is at.

I guess for me the whole "standards" issue is different than it is for a lot of people, the way my dad and brother have taught a lot of the standard issues is much different from the way I am hearing it from a lot of people on here. It disturbs me when I hear people talking about what they believe, with no real idea of why they believe it, or what it really means.

And also, for me personally, I follow a lot of things that I don't necessarily agree with, because I do believe in submission, and if I am going to place myself under someones spiritual authority, I need to be submitted to them (I'm not talking about drinking the Kool-Aid!).

I feel as though the spiritual guidance that I am receiving at this point, far outweighs any negatives that I might encounter. And, honestly, most of the things I don't necessarily agree with, are things that I don't really care that much about anyway. I'm not a real high maintenance girl! :gaga

[Ferd]

Good post, Ferd. I believe the ordinances were cultural and they can change.

I believe it was okay for preachers to be worried about their woman wearing "red" when it was so associated with a prostitute. At one time it was! BUT, when that changed, they shouldn't have carried that further.

If we are looking for everything to be spelled out in the Word of God - it isn't going to happen. We use wisdom.

One example would be jewelry. Does it look decent or ladylike for a women, in America, to have a ring in her upper lip? lol Things just need to make sense. Does that make all jewelry a sin? No, it doesn't.

Oh my lord, I just posted on a standards thread. What am I thinking?!!!!! Arghhhhh! lol
Pressing, i believe we get into trouble when we come up with our own ordinances. A pastor today, in dealing with some issue that is going on in the culture, he is in a precarious position if he delivers this as an ordinance.

It is best to leave those things that we have scripture for at ordinances.

I think the classic example of this is the beard. there was a backlash in the Apostolic movement against the worldliness of the 60's but it seemed to be delivered as an ordinance, and now 40 years later, you have some how think they have bible for it.

silly.

ordinances IMOH arent cultural. they are biblical demands period. the bible has never been the problem. MEN are the problem when they turn the scripture into something other than what it is.

[DividedThigh]

Pressing, i believe we get into trouble when we come up with our own ordinances. A pastor today, in dealing with some issue that is going on in the culture, he is in a precarious position if he delivers this as an ordinance.

It is best to leave those things that we have scripture for at ordinances.

I think the classic example of this is the beard. there was a backlash in the Apostolic movement against the worldliness of the 60's but it seemed to be delivered as an ordinance, and now 40 years later, you have some how think they have bible for it.

silly.

ordinances IMOH arent cultural. they are biblical demands period. the bible has never been the problem. MEN are the problem when they turn the scripture into something other than what it is.

have to agree with you on that one ferd, pretty good explanation for a country boy too, lol,dt

[Pressing-On]

You know, it's funny, I just recently had a conversation with my dad about this very topic. I wanted to know what his opinion was, on the issues of when and where to draw the boundary lines, and at what point do you stop and reevaluate things in context with where society is at.

I guess for me the whole "standards" issue is different than it is for a lot of people, the way my dad and brother have taught a lot of the standard issues is much different from the way I am hearing it from a lot of people on here. It disturbs me when I hear people talking about what they believe, with no real idea of why they believe it, or what it really means.

And also, for me personally, I follow a lot of things that I don't necessarily agree with, because I do believe in submission, and if I am going to place myself under someones spiritual authority, I need to be submitted to them (I'm not talking about drinking the Kool-Aid!).

I feel as though the spiritual guidance that I am receiving at this point, far outweighs any negatives that I might encounter. And, honestly, most of the things I don't necessarily agree with, are things that I don't really care that much about anyway. I'm not a real high maintenance girl! :gaga
Really, dizzyde, we all know that if we are a praying group of people we are not going to argue about things as much and we will allow people to have their personal convictions and respect them. At least we need to hope for this and try to become this way.

The Lord lead me into the UPC and I have to stand up and take notice of that. Wherever He is leading me - He wanted me to start here, so I can't buck that. I can't look around and compare who I am with other people.

I look at our women when we are gathered in a ladies group and I see them coming with their burdens and traveling to meet on their last dollar. When I see God touching them with tears streaming down their faces because they love Him so much I want people to leave them alone and let God do whatever He wants to do with them.

You can't rip people out of their environment when God placed them there, like me. I couldn't walk out right now if I wanted to. I would never go against God no matter how much people call the "standards" ignorant, legalistic, etc.

Now, I can look at things like Deut 22:5 and have issue with putting a pair of pants on that when it is a very deep and soul wrenching interpretation. The word "wear" in that particular passage is never used anywhere else in the OT - ever! It means to "become as or exist as". It has everything to do with a deep seated mindset and problem of the soul and not about clothing. I find that problematic.

But, I wouldn't burn the barn down over that. We have too many wonderful elements that people seek for and I can trust the Lord to help us with this. We have sincere worship that many in the past have even commented about and said that they miss it, etc. Just a lot of pluses.

No perfect church organization. I know, because I wasn't raised UPC.

Anyway, just my thoughts......

[Pressing-On]

Pressing, i believe we get into trouble when we come up with our own ordinances. A pastor today, in dealing with some issue that is going on in the culture, he is in a precarious position if he delivers this as an ordinance.

It is best to leave those things that we have scripture for at ordinances.

I think the classic example of this is the beard. there was a backlash in the Apostolic movement against the worldliness of the 60's but it seemed to be delivered as an ordinance, and now 40 years later, you have some how think they have bible for it.

silly.

ordinances IMOH arent cultural. they are biblical demands period. the bible has never been the problem. MEN are the problem when they turn the scripture into something other than what it is.

Well, I don't know, Ferd. I think some cultural elements can effect the church and we need to look at that as something we cannot allow to become a part of us.

We don't have scriptures about tattoos but we know they are not healthy or good for us in other ways.

I know the OT talks about markings in Lev 19:28, but it is speaking of rituals to the dead.

It was very plain that beards were not a big deal in the Bible, so that should never have been started.

Anyway, do you think there are some things we have to say - "No, this isn't for the church of God because it can lead us into sin?"

[Kutless]

"Standards do not save us. They are merely tools to draw attention to the right things, to help us live a life that will save us"

[Pressing-On]

And what is Paul doing by saying in I Cor 7:6 "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment'?

Is he making an example of putting forth "his opinion" for the church as a leader? What he thinks is best?

[dizzyde]

Really, dizzyde, we all know that if we are a praying group of people we are not going to argue about things as much and we will allow people to have their personal convictions and respect them. At least we need to hope for this and try to become this way.

The Lord lead me into the UPC and I have to stand up and take notice of that. Wherever He is leading me - He wanted me to start here, so I can't buck that. I can't look around and compare who I am with other people.

I look at our women when we are gathered in a ladies group and I see them coming with their burdens and traveling to meet on their last dollar. When I see God touching them with tears streaming down their faces because they love Him so much I want people to leave them alone and let God do whatever He wants to do with them.

You can't rip people out of their environment when God placed them there, like me. I couldn't walk out right now if I wanted to. I would never go against God no matter how much people call the "standards" ignorant, legalistic, etc.

Now, I can look at things like Deut 22:5 and have issue with putting a pair of pants on that when it is a very deep and soul wrenching interpretation. The word "wear" in that particular passage is never used anywhere else in the OT - ever! It means to "become as or exist as". It has everything to do with a deep seated mindset and problem of the soul and not about clothing. I find that problematic.

But, I wouldn't burn the barn down over that. We have too many wonderful elements that people seek for and I can trust the Lord to help us with this. We have sincere worship that many in the past have even commented about and said that they miss it, etc. Just a lot of pluses.

No perfect church organization. I know, because I wasn't raised UPC.

Anyway, just my thoughts......

I hope you didn't think I was being critical of you or your post, my response was related to a lot of things I have seen posted on here, not your post, it was your reference to the cultural issues that sparked my thought. And again, those were strictly my opinions, nothing else.

I agree that the UPC is full of many wonderful, Godly people, who have no desire but to please God. And I don't think that God will do anything but honor those who have chosen live that way. What I have a problem with is the element among us who choose to condemn and persecute those how do not feel the same way that they do over many extra-biblical principles. I don't believe in condemning or judging anyone over believing things differently than I do, the thing that bothers me more than anything is a judgmental attitude.

I hope you understand what I am saying and don't think I responding negatively to you. :friend

[Pressing-On]

I hope you didn't think I was being critical of you or your post, my response was related to a lot of things I have seen posted on here, not your post, it was your reference to the cultural issues that sparked my thought. And again, those were strictly my opinions, nothing else.

I agree that the UPC is full of many wonderful, Godly people, who have no desire but to please God. And I don't think that God will do anything but honor those who have chosen live that way. What I have a problem with is the element among us who choose to condemn and persecute those how do not feel the same way that they do over many extra-biblical principles. I don't believe in condemning or judging anyone over believing things differently than I do, the thing that bothers me more than anything is a judgmental attitude.

I hope you understand what I am saying and don't think I responding negatively to you. :friend
Oh no! I did not in any way take your post as a criticism. I, like you, was spring boarding my feelings.

I do agree with you that some people use their extra-biblical principles as a call to judgment. Yes, I do see that. I've also seen people in the Catholic Church proud of their positions in the church or their social status with the Priest. lol Just wanted to point out that little tidbit of info. lol

I'm remembering a time I was getting dressed for something we were having at church. Probably a ladies meeting. I had my hair all rolled like Tammy Wynette - only longer! lol When I was doing my last little perusal, in the mirror, the Lord spoke to me and said, "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." Wow! I was so proud of that long hair! I will never forget that! Some have turned it into a spiritual barometer of salvation. No denying that. But, see, God taught me better? I can't worry about anyone else. I have to convey these things to my children - one family at a time.

I think in any religious circle people will find a way - Pride is among us in every group. I think we look at that harder with "Spirit-filled" people because, after all - "...the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." Romans 5:5. That wut? lol

We are less forgiving of the Conservative. We want no mistakes from people that profess to be wise or more committed.

[JosephConroy]

they know I am just joking....


Of course! So was I! I just cant get over though how some of these things become more important than anything else! good Grief, does Anyone REALLY believe that Jesus had to go to Calvary because the some one gave their little kids Marshmallow Peeps for Easter?

I remember the Old I L L skit and so will take its counsel now..
"say no more, say no more!"

[dizzyde]

good Grief, does Anyone REALLY believe that Jesus had to go to Calvary because the some one gave their little kids Marshmallow Peeps for Easter?



Well, clearly.... JK, :ursofunny

[Dan'D]

As I stated before. Standards are so impressed upon.

Most folks will list standards ahead of Character.

As you did in your reply.

Spiritual character should be the first thing taught and that would if standards are the Noah's ark of today.

Bring about the change in much more folks.

Then a don't and do list.

In most churches they should print up a do and don't list with expected progress and goals towards standard bearing.

Because they are so important to the measurement of one's salvation.

Standards is the sole reason many are not hearing the voice of God.

Either because they are cheating and feel the conviction of deceit.

Or they are so proud that they feel that they are walking already on streets of Gold.

While folks in their church are hurting and need help.

Get a conviction to win the lost and be Godly minded to hear the voice of God to help those around you.

That is getting close to God and his Holiness.


The two were in no order.

I agree that Character should had been listed first.

Dan'D

[Dan'D]

Let me start by saying that I am a Pastor that believes in holiness and teaches on holiness. But the statement that some Apostolic's make like this is ridiculous. When someone has found the biblical salvation plan and followed it to the letter they don’t automatically start to follow to the letter not cutting their hair not wearing pants ...etc. They must be taught! Some of the things we teach are biblical and some are man given to keep us from hurting ourselves. Being right on the inside is about loving Spiritual Authority. Some teach things others don’t. We shouldn’t run others down for teaching differently. They are following their authority. I like the statement made about the Apostolic church is like peanut brittle. We are all nutty at times

You said it better, Thank You
Dan'D

[Sister Alvear]

Of course! So was I! I just cant get over though how some of these things become more important than anything else! good Grief, does Anyone REALLY believe that Jesus had to go to Calvary because the some one gave their little kids Marshmallow Peeps for Easter?

I remember the Old I L L skit and so will take its counsel now..
"say no more, say no more!"

I thought for a minute you thought I was serious...I love to tease and since I know a lot here I am always teasing them...they know what I believe....

Love you fellow missionary and may God bless you.

[Sister Alvear]

talking about Marshmallows...a little bag of them cost 12 dollars here!

[RandyWayne]

Of course! So was I! I just cant get over though how some of these things become more important than anything else! good Grief, does Anyone REALLY believe that Jesus had to go to Calvary because the some one gave their little kids Marshmallow Peeps for Easter?

I remember the Old I L L skit and so will take its counsel now..
"say no more, say no more!"

"Nudge nudge! Wink wink.... Say nooooo more!"
http://orothon.com/FunnyStuff/Monty_Python/Images/monty_python_007_nudge_nudge.jpg

[Neck]

The two were in no order.

I agree that Character should had been listed first.

Dan'D

Dan, I enjoy many of your post. My post are just "my" thoughts they are not to make you feel bad or less in anyway.

God Bless,

Nate

[lilanastasia]

I didn't get a chance to read all of the posts, so I do not know if this has been mentioned, but here is my opinion and 2 cents for some to chew on...

The Bible says that when the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a "STANDARD" against it. I feel like the Lord impressed on me..."how high will your standard be"? I don't know if this fits into the Hebrew translation from Isaiah, but I feel that God did impress me with this.

When the enemy comes against me, how high will the standard be raised...hmmmm

Also, I heard Nancy Grandquist say at the National Ladies Conference 2 years ago in Louisville that "Please remember, your lowest standard will be the next generations highest standard." WOW...what an eye opener. When I am able to pass my love for God's Word and his instructions to my children or youth group or next generation - my lowest interpretation will be their highest interpretation. I thought that was so profound.

As far as the post, and whether we need to cling to/let go from the "old" standards of holiness...I do think that Biblical standards of holiness must remain and be kept in order to protect ourselves, and personal convictions must remain personal.

The biggest problem is that we (Apostolics) are so prone to JUDGING (grrrrrrr, I can't stand this) when we see someone that does not keep the standards that we feel are sacred. I have done this in the past and been so convicted by it. I used to say to myself... "oh my lord, how dare they dress like that and get on the platform, or how in the world do they see that what they are doing is wrong" Thank God He has delivered me from that way of thinking. My personal convictions have not changed, but my compassion level has certainly increased.

Well, just a few things to chew on...

[bkstokes]

Also, I heard Nancy Grandquist say at the National Ladies Conference 2 years ago in Louisville that "Please remember, your lowest standard will be the next generations highest standard." WOW...what an eye opener. When I am able to pass my love for God's Word and his instructions to my children or youth group or next generation - my lowest interpretation will be their highest interpretation. I thought that was so profound.


This seems to go against what the Lord wants for us -- We should go from glory to glory. Also I am not trying to take anything away from you but most of the oneness pentecostal essential doctrines rest on the belief that there has been a build up of revelation/restoration since the days of Martin Luther. It seems that if we are growing in our understanding of God then we should also grow in our holiness to Him. I do not prescribe to the negative theory that the Church of God is in a decline. The reason why some prescribed extra-biblical standards are becoming less is because many times they are taught as traditions of men. Modesty is a good principle, but no one has yet to respond to my thought on seperate dress (posted earlier on this thread). Women should have long hair (relative) for the purpose of making a distinction in the sexes (and the Lord knows we need that in this day), but no where in any accurate translation or in the original greek does it teach that a woman should never trim or cut it.

I do not have any fear of the physical standards being adjusted. I pray that the Lord send us a spirit of repentance for the many hypocritical stances that we have taken. Like not going to the movies, but watching the same thing and worse at the house (really what is the difference). If you are going to preach against going to movie theaters well preach against Blockbuster. If you can't PREACH AGAINST BOTH then don't just show an outward appearance of a standard. Paul talks and infers much about the holiness of the heart. In there lies the key for where your treasure is there your heart will be also.

[HeavenlyOne]

At the mall it is easier to pick out a Apostolic man now than it was 20 years ago. because they are accessorizing more like women. which fits into the worlds idea of unisex.

Dan'D

While I'm pretty sure you misspoke, I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

[HeavenlyOne]

She obviously has extinuating sirsumstance.. In your wife case she did not choose this.

A women cutting her hair just for cutting her hair is a Bible issue.

Dan'D

You got scripture for that?

I mean, if Paul really was talking about women cutting their hair being a sin, I didn't read any disclaimers that you are alluding to.

[HeavenlyOne]

Is trimming not cutting.

Cutting the hair on a women is a Bible issue. not my words but the Bible's

Wearing a wig unless she had cancer is a problem.

Dan'D

Show me where the Bible says anything about women cutting their hair. I really want to see it in those words.....you said above that they aren't your words, but the Bible's. I want to see those words in the Bible.

[OneAccord]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
My mistake - A women should not wear a wig

Quote:
Wearing a wig unless she had cancer is a problem.

Quote:
If she lost her hair because she had cancer she could not wear a wig.

Quote:
A wig because of Hair loss is really not a question for me but between that person, her pastor and God.

Brother, I don't mean to appear argumentative but here are your quotes, in the order in which you posted them. Read them carefully. Now...do you notice anything missing? Like, maybe a single verse of Scripture to substaniate your position. And maybe a little thing called, "consistency"

No. 1 appears very absolute. A point blank statement with no biblical foundation.

No. 2 seems to say wearing a wig is a problem, unless there is a loophole. By the way, who is a problem for?

No. 3 has to be a typo, because it makes no sense and contradicts No. 2.

And No. 4 makes it clear you are not the authority on the subject (which seems to contradict the assertion made in No. 1.)

Brother, two things: Consistency and at least one verse to substaniate this standard. A part of a verse. Give us something from the Bible that proves this to be a Standard holiness men and women need to adhere to.


Bump for Bro. Dan'D. Please post one verse from the Bible. Just one.
__________________

[OneAccord]

I don't have a problem with rules. Or laws. Ordinances or standards. I believe in them. Life would be chaos without them. But, in US law, every law has to have a basis. Ordinances, in order to be enforceable, must have a foundation. That foundation and/or rule must be established on the basis of, ultimately the US Constitution. A city ordinace can be passed based on the city charter, but, if challenged, that ordinance must pass the Constitution test. Churches, organizations can and do, pass resolutions and "standards" everyday. Those resolutions and standards are based on their articles of faith or manual. And that is fine for those within that church or organization. But, can that resolution or standards pass the "Constitution test?" If challenged, can that ordinance pass the Bible tests? Is it enforceable on Bible grounds? Is it in the Bible?

I don't live by what we have come to commonly define as "standards". I live by, or at least try to, Christian principles that are, in my veiw, entirely based on the Bible and are, therefore enforceable. I have to live by those principles if I am to abide within the Law. Those principles are not the Law. They are the things I do, or do not do, to abide by the Law or Word.

Again, I don't have a problem with whatever this shifting thing is we call "Standards" But, if I am "compelled" to live by them I must know that the Standard can and does pass the Bible tests. "Standards", like the prohibition against beards or women wearing wigs, unless there are circumstances (i.e, loopholes) aren't always enforcable, because they do not (as evidenced by Dan'D's failure to provide Scripture) pass the Bible test. They are unenforceable as far as the Bible is concerned. The same can be said for many "standards". Pulling a verse out of context, stringing obscure, ambigious Scriptures together like Christmas lights, does not necessarily validate the standard as Bible based either. Standards or, more correctly, "godly principles", are not hard to see in the Scripture. You don't have to pull out the Greek and Hebrew lexicons to find them. They are there, hidden in plain sight.. And we've got plenty of them... we don't need to create more, we do good to handle what we've got.

No comments?

[tv1a]

Should there be?

No comments?

[OneAccord]

Should there be?


Nah....

[robert]

Show me where the Bible says anything about women cutting their hair. I really want to see it in those words.....you said above that they aren't your words, but the Bible's. I want to see those words in the Bible.

1 Cor.
15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a ** covering.
6) For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn* or shaven*, let her be covered. (*cut...*shaved)

** Some say this covering mentioned here is a "veil"...if this is true how do you cut or shave the "veil",... yet the scripture plainly declairs the hair is the covering.

It says if a woman is not covered (long hair) it is a shame.

My question to you is even if this was not a heaven/hell issue...Why would any one want to walk around in a shameful condition. Most women I know want to be at their best appearance.

[JTULLOCK]

1 Cor.
15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a ** covering.
6) For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn* or shaven*, let her be covered. (*cut...*shaved)

** Some say this covering mentioned here is a "veil"...if this is true how do you cut or shave the "veil",... yet the scripture plainly declairs the hair is the covering.

It says if a woman is not covered (long hair) it is a shame.

My question to you is even if this was not a heaven/hell issue...Why would any one want to walk around in a shameful condition. Most women I know want to be at their best appearance.

Isn't any type of sin is always shameful, robert? Are shameful things always sin? Yes to the first and no to the second. I do not believe that cutting womens hair is a sin. What was or could have been a shame then, because of gender blending, may not be the say as it is today. I have read many things on the topic and the truth is no one is going to see differently unless God speaks.

Having once believed it wrong I would read the verses above and see it through OP cultural glasses. Now that I have read, studied and prayed about the subject I do not believe it is wrong. Now, I believe that hair is to be a Glory. The truth is that Glory needs to be taken care of. It can not be glorious if it is unkept and nasty, IMO. If you follow the logic of what you are saying that it is a sin to cut or whatever then once the cutting is done it is not shorn anymore because length or long has no defination. That is how I see it and if I am wrong I pray God convict me, but I do not believe I am. But I will listen if He speaks to me.

[RandyWayne]

Brother, I don't mean to appear argumentative but here are your quotes, in the order in which you posted them. Read them carefully. Now...do you notice anything missing? Like, maybe a single verse of Scripture to substaniate your position. And maybe a little thing called, "consistency"

No. 1 appears very absolute. A point blank statement with no biblical foundation.

No. 2 seems to say wearing a wig is a problem, unless there is a loophole. By the way, who is a problem for?

No. 3 has to be a typo, because it makes no sense and contradicts No. 2.

And No. 4 makes it clear you are not the authority on the subject (which seems to contradict the assertion made in No. 1.)

Brother, two things: Consistency and at least one verse to substaniate this standard. A part of a verse. Give us something from the Bible that proves this to be a Standard holiness men and women need to adhere to.


Bump for Bro. Dan'D. Please post one verse from the Bible. Just one.
__________________

This is the problem with accepting a false premise -the idea that it IS out and out wrong for a woman to touch her hair with any sort of cutting tool. Now you have to "argue" 10, 100, or 1000, different scenarios and why it may be ok in this case but not that, etc.

[Raven]

No comments?
Yes, I have a short comment. GOOD POST!!!
Raven

[robert]

Isn't any type of sin is always shameful, robert? Are shameful things always sin? Yes to the first and no to the second. I do not believe that cutting womens hair is a sin. What was or could have been a shame then, because of gender blending, may not be the say as it is today. I have read many things on the topic and the truth is no one is going to see differently unless God speaks.

Having once believed it wrong I would read the verses above and see it through OP cultural glasses. Now that I have read, studied and prayed about the subject I do not believe it is wrong. Now, I believe that hair is to be a Glory. The truth is that Glory needs to be taken care of. It can not be glorious if it is unkept and nasty, IMO. If you follow the logic of what you are saying that it is a sin to cut or whatever then once the cutting is done it is not shorn anymore because length or long has no defination. That is how I see it and if I am wrong I pray God convict me, but I do not believe I am. But I will listen if He speaks to me.

WEll.....I'm a man and the scriptures (1 Cor. 11:3&4) tells me that if I pray or prophesy with my head covered...LONG HAIR...I dishonor my head which is Christ Jesus. So I will gladly keep my hair short...not long. A woman only will be dishonoring her husband who she is supposed to reverance so I guess it's ok to cut the hair short and feel perfectly fine with it. A little dishonor and shame don't mean much when you got keep it nice and styled and short and well kept I guess.:)

[HeavenlyOne]

1 Cor.
15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a ** covering.
6) For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn* or shaven*, let her be covered. (*cut...*shaved)

** Some say this covering mentioned here is a "veil"...if this is true how do you cut or shave the "veil",... yet the scripture plainly declairs the hair is the covering.

It says if a woman is not covered (long hair) it is a shame.

My question to you is even if this was not a heaven/hell issue...Why would any one want to walk around in a shameful condition. Most women I know want to be at their best appearance.

No, it says that IF it's a shame, let her be covered. IF....that's a little big word that people miss when reading that scripture. And 'shorn' doesn't mean 'cut' alone, but a type of cut, just as shaven is.

Do you think that all women who cut their hair look shameful???

Shame is an emotion that one feels on themselves. You cannot feel shame for someone. So if I don't feel shame, how can you think that I'm walking around in a shameful condition?

[HeavenlyOne]

WEll.....I'm a man and the scriptures (1 Cor. 11:3&4) tells me that if I pray or prophesy with my head covered...LONG HAIR...I dishonor my head which is Christ Jesus. So I will gladly keep my hair short...not long. A woman only will be dishonoring her husband who she is supposed to reverance so I guess it's ok to cut the hair short and feel perfectly fine with it. A little dishonor and shame don't mean much when you got keep it nice and styled and short and well kept I guess.:)

Gosh....imagine all the long-haired sinner men who, when they pray, they are dishonoring Jesus.

I'm sure Jesus won't listen to those shameful men.

[robert]

Gosh....imagine all the long-haired sinner men who, when they pray, they are dishonoring Jesus.

I'm sure Jesus won't listen to those shameful men.

It's good to see you finally agreeing with 1 Cor. 11:2-3. So you do understand the writings of Paul the Apostle. He did get his words from God. See people, even Heavenlyone has seen the light.:)

[robert]

No, it says that IF it's a shame, let her be covered. IF....that's a little big word that people miss when reading that scripture. And 'shorn' doesn't mean 'cut' alone, but a type of cut, just as shaven is.

Do you think that all women who cut their hair look shameful???

Shame is an emotion that one feels on themselves. You cannot feel shame for someone. So if I don't feel shame, how can you think that I'm walking around in a shameful condition?

Women who cut thier hair, wear pants and who's back is turned to me doesn't look shameful...THEY LOOK LIKE MEN...You'd think women of God would want to be percieved as women.

IF...that word doesn't allow permission to be something that is a shame...maybe it's your way of justifying your thoughts.

You sound like you're trying to create an out for women who want to feel good about themselves while trying to do something that has a negative feel to it.

Shame is something most people would try to avoid. You want to excuse doing something that is a shame...so you can have your short hair. If you feel good shaming yourself...have at it. It don't seem right that you want to justify yourself by creating a reason for others to follow your example.

[scotty]

1 Cor.
15) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a ** covering.

I don't think it is a heaven/hell issue ... I do think it could be....I think I the Lord convicts one not to cut then it becomes an obediance issue, to disobey is sin...but that is between the woman and God.

Now, on the other hand, while it is not a heaven or hell issue, lets look at the scripture......It is a glory to the woman who keeps her hair long....would I not want to be a glory to the Lord? Does it say anywhere in the Bible that short hair is a glory,? a blessing ?? that those with short hair will inherit the ???????.......the only place it talks about hair in the bible and all it says is that long hair is a glory to her

and thats all Im gonna say about that...

[scotty]

Women who cut thier hair, wear pants and who's back is turned to me doesn't look shameful...THEY LOOK LIKE MEN...You'd think women of God would want to be percieved as women.

IF...that word doesn't allow permission to be something that is a shame...maybe it's your way of justifying your thoughts.

You sound like you're trying to create an out for women who want to feel good about themselves while trying to do something that has a negative feel to it.


Whoa, whoa , whoa there puppy boy....whats that mean??? Lets reword that a little.......sounds like your saying a woman can't feel good about herself while wearing long hair? You need to spend like 2 minutes with my daughter.... she feels great about herself,,,, a little too much so for daddys liking ...

[Brother Price]

Women who cut thier hair, wear pants and who's back is turned to me doesn't look shameful...THEY LOOK LIKE MEN...You'd think women of God would want to be percieved as women.


I think you need to re-word that a bit. I have yet to meet a woman in women's pants who looks like a man. That is so wrong and so judgmental.

[robert]

Whoa, whoa , whoa there puppy boy....whats that mean??? Lets reword that a little.......sounds like your saying a woman can't feel good about herself while wearing long hair? You need to spend like 2 minutes with my daughter.... she feels great about herself,,,, a little too much so for daddys liking ...

Scotty...why the puppyboy comment...I'm just speaking ofthe scriptures pertaining to hair written by Paul speaking of the shame that is involved in cutting or not cutting of it. I wouldn't think of calling you puppy boy just because you call yourself scotty. As for your daughter...Good that she feels great about her self...maybe someday she might read 1st Cor. 11 and have an opinion of these scriptures for herself.

[scotty]

I think you need to re-word that a bit. I have yet to meet a woman in women's pants who looks like a man. That is so wrong and so judgmental.

wow, thats a little harsh ya think....

So he thinks a woman in pants looks like a man from behind....hey that mistake can be made in several cities in California...either way that is what he thinks, his opinion , he is not saying they are men....

He is hardly being judgmental

[scotty]

Scotty...why the puppyboy comment...I'm just speaking ofthe scriptures pertaining to hair written by Paul speaking of the shame that is involved in cutting or not cutting of it. I wouldn't think of calling you puppy boy just because you call yourself scotty. As for your daughter...Good that she feels great about her self...maybe someday she might read 1st Cor. 11 and have an opinion of these scriptures for herself.

Sorry , was just being funny,,,,lighten up...

second off you still dont understand your own post??

Are you saying that a woman who choses not to cut her hair can not feel good about herself??? why not ????

[robert]

I think you need to re-word that a bit. I have yet to meet a woman in women's pants who looks like a man. That is so wrong and so judgmental.

Hey Brother Price, If you want to write my words then what does that make you my Boss. You misread...I said if their back was to me. Please reply all you want...but don't try to instruct me to write somethingh as you would...God made us individuals not puppets. I'm discussing scriptures and beliefs not telling anyone to be me.

[robert]

Sorry , was just being funny,,,,lighten up...

second off you still dont understand your own post??

Are you saying that a woman who choses not to cut her hair can not feel good about herself??? why not ????

If you're going to instruct me as to how I should feel about how I write then you will see a blank space to your questions. If calling a man... puppy boy... as being funny then maybe you need to lighten up. I made myself plain and clear...I believe 1 Cor. 11 speaks against women cutting their hair.

[scotty]

You sound like you're trying to create an out for women who want to feel good about themselves while trying to do something that has a negative feel to it.


Let me try this again.....

HEY !!!!!!!!!! quit getting mad and trying to read crosseyed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said I wanted to change what you were saying.....can you read the bold above from your post ...... now..........what you just said up there was this....."women who wish to keep their hair long can not feel good about themselves" My wife and daughter both adhere to the standard of keeping their hair long....yet you just said they cant feel good about it........I am asking you ....why can a woman not feel good about keeping one of the holiness standards???? Are you saying that a woman who keeps her hair long for God is supposed to feel ugly?????

[robert]

Let me try this again.....

HEY !!!!!!!!!! quit getting mad and trying to read crosseyed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said I wanted to change what you were saying.....can you read the bold above from your post ...... now..........what you just said up there was this....."women who wish to keep their hair long can not feel good about themselves" My wife and daughter both adhere to the standard of keeping their hair long....yet you just said they cant feel good about it........I am asking you ....why can a woman not feel good about keeping one of the holiness standards???? Are you saying that a woman who keeps her hair long for God is supposed to feel ugly?????

Sotty,

Dov't listen to me im crazy dont belomg here ill ga away.

[scotty]

Sotty,

Dov't listen to me im crazy dont belomg here ill ga away.


Well brother, Im about to agree with you , but Im a patient man..

Point being , much to the dismay of others who are posting on this thread, I agree with you. I believe in the holiness standards. Its just you made a statement, (probably a typo) that basicly said that women who keep holiness standards cant feel good about themselves. I just wanted you to either say that was a boo boo typo or tell me why my family cant do the will of God and be happy???

[bkstokes]

Sorry , was just being funny,,,,lighten up...

second off you still dont understand your own post??

Are you saying that a woman who choses not to cut her hair can not feel good about herself??? why not ????

Scotty

where did you get the picture of the g-pig? I have always thought that it is really funny.

[Mrs. LPW]

I think you need to re-word that a bit. I have yet to meet a woman in women's pants who looks like a man. That is so wrong and so judgmental.

I have... good gravy.. HAVE I!!!

(carry on)

[scotty]

I have... good gravy.. HAVE I!!!

(carry on)


ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I got biscuits

[scotty]

Scotty

where did you get the picture of the g-pig? I have always thought that it is really funny.

I found it after thumbing through pages upon pages of avatars....google "avatar"

[tv1a]

Reminds me of a time where I was in a room with some legalists. There was a comment made how a woman looked behind a counter looked apostolic because she didn't have on jewelry, or makeup. Then she walked away from the counter and had on a pair of pants. Like the Visa commerical, their reaction was priceless.

Looking like a man is more than how one dresses from the waist down. Judging one's sexuality based on the article of clothing used to cover one's backside sounds a bit perverted to me.

A pair of pants no more defines a woman's sexuality no more than a kilt defines a man's sexuality. I haven't heard anyone question Mel Gibson's masculinity for wearing a kilt in Braveheart.

The Biblical principles for dress is as follows:
1. Modesty
2. Gender Separation
3. Not draw attention to oneself.

The Bible gives plenty of room for interpretation. Since you are responsible for your household, you set the parameters as you see fit.

I probably go overboard on #3, especially when it comes to my 11 year old daughter, but unless she wearing a sports jersey, or the official shirt of the children's ministry, I don't allow her to wear clothing that has phrases written across the chest. I feel it is inappropriate for anyone to stare at her chest, even if it just to read her shirt.

Hey Brother Price, If you want to write my words then what does that make you my Boss. You misread...I said if their back was to me. Please reply all you want...but don't try to instruct me to write somethingh as you would...God made us individuals not puppets. I'm discussing scriptures and beliefs not telling anyone to be me.

[Mrs. LPW]

I found it after thumbing through pages upon pages of avatars....google "avatar"

It captures your personality.

[scotty]

It captures your personality.


aaaaaawwwwwww....shucks.....


You hittin on me chick????

yeeeeee aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ..... ha

:ursofunny

[Mrs. LPW]

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I got biscuits

Seriously though... If you haven't ever seen a woman who looked like a man in your lifetime Bill, you are highly favored and blessed.

But, you don't get out much either. :toofunny

[scotty]

crouching tiger,,,,,,,,,ha!!!!!!!!


pumped up pig!!!!!!!!!!

[Mrs. LPW]

aaaaaawwwwwww....shucks.....


You hittin on me chick????

yeeeeee aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ..... ha

:ursofunny

MRS. LPW... lol.. my husband wouldn't want me too. :toofunny

[tv1a]

I have seen women look like men, but it took more than a pair of pants to make that determination. By the same token I worked with a man who won numerous contests as a drag queen. Sad to say, he looked better as a woman than he did as a man. And I don't get out much either.

Seriously though... If you haven't ever seen a woman who looked like a man in your lifetime Bill, you are highly favored and blessed.

But, you don't get out much either. :toofunny

[scotty]

Seriously though... If you haven't ever seen a woman who looked like a man in your lifetime Bill, you are highly favored and blessed.

But, you don't get out much either. :toofunny


Very blessed, I've seen women who look like men ..... on purpose :eeeew :faint

[Mrs. LPW]

I have seen women look like men, but it took more than a pair of pants to make that determination. By the same token I worked with a man who won numerous contests as a drag queen. Sad to say, he looked better as a woman than he did as a man. And I don't get out much either.

My bus driver in elementary's name was Mary, but she looked like a Bob, and had a girlfriend... and a mullet.

[scotty]

My bus driver in elementary's name was Mary, but she looked like a Bob, and had a girlfriend... and a mullet.


Really!!!!! I had a mullet once ,,,,,named it Barney

[Mrs. LPW]

Really!!!!! I had a mullet once ,,,,,named it Barney

Is it safe to assume that Barney was disfellowshipped?

[tv1a]

Sources say scotty was forced to cut ties with barney.

Is it safe to assume that Barney was disfellowshipped?

[Mrs. LPW]

Sources say scotty was forced to cut ties with barney.

Barney split from Scotty.

[HeavenlyOne]

Women who cut thier hair, wear pants and who's back is turned to me doesn't look shameful...THEY LOOK LIKE MEN...You'd think women of God would want to be percieved as women.

What do you think men looked like in the Bible days with their backs turned? In order to know if they were men, facial hair was a good idea!! Men and women wore robes as well as head coverings. They looked the same from the back also.

And since when does a woman with cut hair look like a man just because she's wearing pants? Are you that obtuse that you can't determine anything else she might be wearing to be women's clothing??? Shoes, perhaps?

IF...that word doesn't allow permission to be something that is a shame...maybe it's your way of justifying your thoughts.

It says IF it's a shame, not that it IS a shame. It's simple language. Easily understood.

You sound like you're trying to create an out for women who want to feel good about themselves while trying to do something that has a negative feel to it.

Not following you here. What has a negative feel to it?

Shame is something most people would try to avoid. You want to excuse doing something that is a shame...so you can have your short hair. If you feel good shaming yourself...have at it. It don't seem right that you want to justify yourself by creating a reason for others to follow your example.

If it be a shame......you aren't reading Paul's words. Women as well as men took Nazarite vows, meaning that their heads were shaven when it was over. Shame was never attached to that. Paul never wrote that it was a shame for women to have their heads shorn or shaven, but even if he did, that hardly is speaking about women who cut their hair at all, which is what you are trying to say that Paul is saying.

Paul never mentions even once anything about a woman cutting her hair.

[robert]

What do you think men looked like in the Bible days with their backs turned? In order to know if they were men, facial hair was a good idea!! Men and women wore robes as well as head coverings. They looked the same from the back also.

And since when does a woman with cut hair look like a man just because she's wearing pants? Are you that obtuse that you can't determine anything else she might be wearing to be women's clothing??? Shoes, perhaps?



It says IF it's a shame, not that it IS a shame. It's simple language. Easily understood.



Not following you here. What has a negative feel to it?



If it be a shame......you aren't reading Paul's words. Women as well as men took Nazarite vows, meaning that their heads were shaven when it was over. Shame was never attached to that. Paul never wrote that it was a shame for women to have their heads shorn or shaven, but even if he did, that hardly is speaking about women who cut their hair at all, which is what you are trying to say that Paul is saying.

Paul never mentions even once anything about a woman cutting her hair.

You must love to hear your self talk, since I make no sense to you and you make no sense to me maybe it's best to end this conversation. If you get bored just talk to your self. I'm sure there will be many come to your defense...and I kinda believe that's what you enjoy about discussions. The attention you can draw to YOURSELF. Watch that pride thing... you know what the Bible says about it.

[robert]

Let me try this again.....

HEY !!!!!!!!!! quit getting mad and trying to read crosseyed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said I wanted to change what you were saying.....can you read the bold above from your post ...... now..........what you just said up there was this....."women who wish to keep their hair long can not feel good about themselves" My wife and daughter both adhere to the standard of keeping their hair long....yet you just said they cant feel good about it........I am asking you ....why can a woman not feel good about keeping one of the holiness standards???? Are you saying that a woman who keeps her hair long for God is supposed to feel ugly?????

Scotty, after leaving to cool off...from being called puppy boy...I confess you are right... it was a typo...I made a mistake. You sure have a way with words. You must be fun at parties.

[tv1a]

Is this your way of saying don't confuse me with facts my self righteous mind is made up?

You must love to hear your self talk, since I make no sense to you and you make no sense to me maybe it's best to end this conversation. If you get bored just talk to your self. I'm sure there will be many come to your defense...and I kinda believe that's what you enjoy about discussions. The attention you can draw to YOURSELF. Watch that pride thing... you know what the Bible says about it.

[Brother Price]

Is this your way of saying don't confuse me with facts my self righteous mind is made up?

Well, you just said what I was trying to find a way to say in a nicer way.

:ursofunny

[simplyme]

Is this your way of saying don't confuse me with facts my self righteous mind is made up?

Do ya'lls mommies know youre on the computer
AGAIN?
:ursofunny

[HeavenlyOne]

You must love to hear your self talk, since I make no sense to you and you make no sense to me maybe it's best to end this conversation. If you get bored just talk to your self. I'm sure there will be many come to your defense...and I kinda believe that's what you enjoy about discussions. The attention you can draw to YOURSELF. Watch that pride thing... you know what the Bible says about it.

Translation: I can't answer your questions and refuse to read the Bible and believe it exactly as it's written. To make myself feel better, I'll blame it on you being prideful (even though that makes no sense and has nothing to do with the conversation), thus taking the heat off myself as I've run out of excuses for reading something that the Bible doesn't even say.

Yep, have a great day!

P.S. If you don't want to discuss issues on a discussion forum, perhaps you are in the wrong place. Just a suggestion...

[scotty]

Barney split from Scotty.

Yep, dyed him purple and sold him to a puppet maker

said something about wanting to make a dinosour.....??????

Oh well

[scotty]

Scotty, after leaving to cool off...from being called puppy boy...I confess you are right... it was a typo...I made a mistake. You sure have a way with words. You must be fun at parties.

Well as a friend of mine , Bro . Ferd , says , I can be "a little salty"...

But geesh brother , if puppy boy bothers you , you must have been really sheltered as a Pentecostal or have killed alot of people. You haven't been through the "holy roller", "greater than thou" , "snake charmer", etc. etc....????

[HeavenlyOne]

Well as a friend of mine , Bro . Ferd , says , I can be "a little salty"...

But geesh brother , if puppy boy bothers you , you must have been really sheltered as a Pentecostal or have killed alot of people. You haven't been through the "holy roller", "greater than thou" , "snake charmer", etc. etc....????


What does a guinea pig know anyway??

[scotty]

Don't make me get piggy wit you

[Mrs. LPW]

Well as a friend of mine , Bro . Ferd , says , I can be "a little salty"...

But geesh brother , if puppy boy bothers you , you must have been really sheltered as a Pentecostal or have killed alot of people. You haven't been through the "holy roller", "greater than thou" , "snake charmer", etc. etc....????

You forgot Penny-hopper and Papist...

[robert]

Well as a friend of mine , Bro . Ferd , says , I can be "a little salty"...

But geesh brother , if puppy boy bothers you , you must have been really sheltered as a Pentecostal or have killed alot of people. You haven't been through the "holy roller", "greater than thou" , "snake charmer", etc. etc....????

Being insulted by sinners or those of a false belief I can take...being insulted by an "Apostolic Friend" or so this forum calls itself is not the same. "Puppy" refers to lack of knowledge, immaturity, etc... "Boy'...if I was black would be a racial insult. I don't doubt that you are knowledgeable of the scriptures...Have you heard...A soft answer turneth away wrath or Do not provoke to anger. Scotty I may not be Mister Good Humor Man, but I don't start a reply with an insulting name to a person I don't even know yet.

[robert]

You forgot Penny-hopper and Papist...
Insulting seems to be an acceptable practice here so I guess I will feel free to insult as well. Or is that Christian? Or is insulting someone Christian? Ya are confusing me. What is being a Christian?

[robert]

Translation: I can't answer your questions and refuse to read the Bible and believe it exactly as it's written. To make myself feel better, I'll blame it on you being prideful (even though that makes no sense and has nothing to do with the conversation), thus taking the heat off myself as I've run out of excuses for reading something that the Bible doesn't even say.

Yep, have a great day!

P.S. If you don't want to discuss issues on a discussion forum, perhaps you are in the wrong place. Just a suggestion...


Discussion YES...Argue...NO

[simplyme]

Robert-
Everyone claims to read the BIBLE as its written but for some reason, different people interpret it differently and soo there is then basis for debates, I don't think GOD intended it that way., that there would be people being less than christian spirited over those differences, I say that most times, its best to keep ones opinion to self IF its only going to bring out the worst on either side.

[Kay B]

The Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

The WPF is keeping with the idea that we should keep our Holiness Standards we have kept over the years. Which I agree, Yes things change but do we?
Dan'D

I staying with The Old way of Holiness :bliss