No Double Dipping? General Board votes against ..

[SDG]

A good source has reported that the General board of the UPCI has voted TODAY against dual membership for WPF and UPCI ministers. Has anyone heard this? If true ... what are the repercussions?

[Jehoram]

Name your source and I'll tell you if I think it's reliable.

:kickcan

[Mrs. LPW]

A good source has reported that the General board of the UPCI has voted TODAY against dual membership for WPF and UPCI ministers. Has anyone heard this? If true ... what are the repercussions?

The spirit of Thad is upon thee...

:toofunny

(Where is the Saint these days?)

I can't see anyone wanting to belong to the WPF and the UPCI both anyway.. just my opinion here, but those who joined WPF or have interest in doing so, are looking for an alternative to the UPCI it seems.

[SDG]

Name your source and I'll tell you if I think it's reliable.

:kickcan

They will remain anonymous ... but very credible as far as I know.

[Pressing-On]

They will remain anonymous ... but very credible as far as I know.
If you'll wait, Daniel, someone will post a letter that was sent out. Hehehehehe!

[Mrs. LPW]

If you'll wait, Daniel, someone will post a letter that was sent out. Hehehehehe!

:toofunny

[Pressing-On]

:toofunny

Have I been a member here too long or what?

:ursofunny

[Mrs. LPW]

Have I been a member here too long or what?

:ursofunny

Anyone who's been a member since October or before has been here too long! :toofunny

[Jehoram]

This would be a huge miscalculation -IF IT's TRUE.

It will only serve to push more conservatives out the door.

[dizzyde]

I think it is a bad move, it will alienate those who might eventually change their minds.

[Jehoram]

If they do this...and more than one source has told me that a District is already penning a resolution to do so...the liberalization of the UPC will be lightening quick.

[Pressing-On]

Anyone who's been a member since October or before has been here too long! :toofunny

I know!!! I feel convicted, but sin just clings to me!!!! I can't log out!!!! :toofunny

:tissue :tantrum

[SDG]

This will set of a painful chain of events short term .... it will result in some carnage ...

[Jehoram]

Yes, this will be ugly.

[Mrs. LPW]

Hasn't it been a bit ugly already? I can't really see how it will change the course of events in a great way. But... maybe it will.

Has anyone verified the vote?

[dizzyde]

This will set of a painful chain of events short term .... it will result in some carnage ...

You know this is exactly the reason that my dad fought the resolution so hard. Many people misunderstood that, don't get me wrong he is not for TV, but he is not stupid either. His biggest problem with it was what the results would be. He knew that this would be the excuse that some were looking for, and that it would be incredibly divisive. He wanted to wait until it was an issue that had to be dealt with (as in, technology forced our hand) rather than a choice. He hated seeing this tear the organization apart.

And here it is again, pushing people out the door. It is really sad.

[CC1]

If I am not mistaken there are some pretty conservative guys on the board so I would think if this is true it will be widespread shortly.

[A_PoMo]

I'm reminded of that soap opera, "As My Stomach Churns".

[RevDWW]

Will it keep Jesus from returning? Will it negate God's call on a man's life? Will it stop folks from finding salvation in Jesus?

Then it's probably not big a deal in the whole scheme on things as soem might think.......

[bishoph]

If this is true.......several members of the WPF General Counsel serve on the General Board, so this could be very interesting indeed.

I can quote a very well known conference preacher (name withheld to protect the guilty) who told his DS "please don't make me choose, because you might not like the choice I make." If the UPCI takes such a stand, the have not learned anything from their past. The AMF, AWCF, both gained members who had no intention of leaving, but were not going to be "forced" to be exclusive. IMHO this decision, if indeed true, would take the UPCI back into the dark ages as it relates to open fellowship and breaking down the walls that separate us that KH has been an advocate of.

[ChTatum]

If all this really comes to pass, is it going to change the brand of popcorn I eat each night?

I'm just sayin'........

[A_PoMo]

\ IMHO this decision, if indeed true, would take the UPCI back into the dark ages as it relates to open fellowship and breaking down the walls that separate us that KH has been an advocate of.

chtat: :ursofunny Good one.

bishop: please understand that I'm not trying to be provocative or evocative any other kind of ocative. Because I don't know the overall context of your position i am little confused and just would like some clarification. I'm not trying to start a spitting contest, ok? I tried to PM you but for some reason it didn't work.

When you say KH as been an "advocate", to what are you referring? Taking the UPC back into the dark ages or breaking down walls?

I assume you mean the latter, but just wondering because the way it was written it could possibly be construed as the former. I'd hate for you to be misunderstood. It's a terrible thing. Ask me how I know. :)

[Mr. Steinway]

I have a hard time believing this rumor, but it is best for the UPCI if this did happen. It's kind of like "tough love"! :D

[bishoph]

chtat: :ursofunny Good one.

bishop: please understand that I'm not trying to be provocative or evocative any other kind of ocative. Because I don't know the overall context of your position i am little confused and just would like some clarification. I'm not trying to start a spitting contest, ok? I tried to PM you but for some reason it didn't work.

When you say KH as been an "advocate", to what are you referring? Taking the UPC back into the dark ages or breaking down walls?

I assume you mean the latter, but just wondering because the way it was written it could possibly be construed as the former. I'd hate for you to be misunderstood. It's a terrible thing. Ask me how I know. :)

KH has been very public concerning his desire to tear down the walls of separation from fellow Apostolics. While there are some things I disagree with KH on, I applaud his efforts in this regard. KH is in my opinion a progressive thinker and an excellent leader. Like any leader before him, (political or spiritual) history will define him by the action/reactions with which he leads through these troubled waters. JMHO

[freeatlast]

I have a hard time believing this rumor, but it is best for the UPCI if this did happen. It's kind of like "tough love"! :D

Another skeptic here Pianoman....somebody post the facts....just the facts please. :tissue

[A_PoMo]

KH has been very public concerning his desire to tear down the walls of separation from fellow Apostolics. While there are some things I disagree with KH on, I applaud his efforts in this regard. KH is in my opinion a progressive thinker and an excellent leader. Like any leader before him, (political or spiritual) history will define him by the action/reactions with which he leads through these troubled waters. JMHO

ok. thanks for the clarification. i figured that was your position. i've not heard kh speak in awhile so i don't know his position on all this stuff. presumably i could extrapolate his position from things i've heard him say in years past but i didn't want to assume. kudos for him.:shockamoo

[Mrs. LPW]

We also should remember in our discussions that no one man makes the decisions, the votes are cast by the general board members. Who knows how close a vote it may or may not have been, if such a vote occurred.

Was anyone there? ;)

[ManOfWord]

Unfortunately, I think the UPCI will continue to make bad decisions based upon the proliferation of "leaders" who are still intolerant in their viewpoint. I wish this were not true, but I am afraid it is. Politics will prevail, in all its glory. :D

[OneAccord]

The Book of 2 Kings 2: 11-13 (NEW AFF INTERNET VERSION)


And it came to pass, as they still posted on, and talked about current events, that, behold, a big red limo appeared, with a big Hammond organ, and parted them both asunder; and Thad went in a California earthquake to that big newsroom in the sky.

And Daniel A. saw it, and he posted about it, saying "Relaible sources tell me about this new BOMBSHELL!" And he wrote about Thad no more: but went back to AFF to discuss the pros of the 1 step veiw. And he thumped of his own chest, and, with a voice of thunder, cried, "I'm more Apostolic than you all!"

He took up also the mantle of Thad that fell from him, and went back and posted the latest news on the Apostolic Friends Forum.

[Blubayou]

OA- Priceless!!!!!

[RevBuddy]

A doubleminded man is unstable in all his ways...

...pick an organization and enjoy...

...straddling a fence is always uncomfortable...

...the UPCI district governing structure, for better or worse, will not tolerate fellowship and allegience to two real organizations... :kickcan

[Whole Hearted]

If this is true.......several members of the WPF General Counsel serve on the General Board, so this could be very interesting indeed.

I can quote a very well known conference preacher (name withheld to protect the guilty) who told his DS "please don't make me choose, because you might not like the choice I make." If the UPCI takes such a stand, the have not learned anything from their past. The AMF, AWCF, both gained members who had no intention of leaving, but were not going to be "forced" to be exclusive. IMHO this decision, if indeed true, would take the UPCI back into the dark ages as it relates to open fellowship and breaking down the walls that separate us that KH has been an advocate of.

Brother I believe you are right. This decision will just force men out who may not have left.

[Monkeyman]

Brother I believe you are right. This decision will just force men out who may not have left.Did you leave yet? Seriously, I am not trying to take a shot at you, just asking.

[Whole Hearted]

Did you leave yet? Seriously, I am not trying to take a shot at you, just asking.

Not yet. I am still a card carrier, but that is about it.

[Monkeyman]

Not yet. I am still a card carrier, but that is about it.ok, thanks for your answer, I wish you the best!

[Mrs. LPW]

Brother I believe you are right. This decision will just force men out who may not have left.

I have a question for anyone who might have a serious or sensible answer... not for debate or ridicule...

Why would someone belong to both organizations at the same time?
For fellowshipping?

And, why would someone who was already looking at the WPF, for a preferred Apostolic future, be forced out by the UPCI making this decision?
Most likely if they were considering WPF they wouldn't be satisfied with the UPCI as it presently is.. and thus it wouldn't make much of a difference to whether they leave or stay.

I guess I'm thinking of how I would look at it, if I had a problem with the tv advertising etc.

[rgcraig]

The Book of 2 Kings 2: 11-13 (NEW AFF INTERNET VERSION)


And it came to pass, as they still posted on, and talked about current events, that, behold, a big red limo appeared, with a big Hammond organ, and parted them both asunder; and Thad went in a California earthquake to that big newsroom in the sky.

And Daniel A. saw it, and he posted about it, saying "Relaible sources tell me about this new BOMBSHELL!" And he wrote about Thad no more: but went back to AFF to discuss the pros of the 1 step veiw. And he thumped of his own chest, and, with a voice of thunder, cried, "I'm more Apostolic than you all!"

He took up also the mantle of Thad that fell from him, and went back and posted the latest news on the Apostolic Friends Forum.
LOL! I love it! :ursofunny

[freeatlast]

OA...you dog....I bout snorted coke...er I mean pepsi right out my nose ;-)

[CC1]

If any of my good conservative preacher friends are lurking and reading this thread and know whether or not this rumor of a vote is true please feel free to PM, email, or call me so I can post the truth!

[OneAccord]

"And unto the brother who calleth himself Freeatlast, write....

I know thy words, that thou art sometimes funny and often serious, and sippeth Pepsi or Coke when thou postest on AFF.

So then because thou don't know what thou drinkest, take heed, that it spue not from out of thy nostrils."


Okay, enough of this foolishness.

[TrmptPraise]

The Book of 2 Kings 2: 11-13 (NEW AFF INTERNET VERSION)


And it came to pass, as they still posted on, and talked about current events, that, behold, a big red limo appeared, with a big Hammond organ, and parted them both asunder; and Thad went in a California earthquake to that big newsroom in the sky.

And Daniel A. saw it, and he posted about it, saying "Relaible sources tell me about this new BOMBSHELL!" And he wrote about Thad no more: but went back to AFF to discuss the pros of the 1 step veiw. And he thumped of his own chest, and, with a voice of thunder, cried, "I'm more Apostolic than you all!"

He took up also the mantle of Thad that fell from him, and went back and posted the latest news on the Apostolic Friends Forum.

One Word: Priceless :toofunny

[Ferd]

This would be a huge miscalculation -IF IT's TRUE.

It will only serve to push more conservatives out the door.

I disagree.

the long standing rule in the UPCI is that you cannot hold dual membership with any other Apostolic organization.

You cannot be UPCI and ALJC
You cannot be AWCF and UPCI

why would one think they can be WWPF and UPCI?

makes no since to allow the WWPF guys to stay. Do disrespect here. simply being consistance (something the UPCI is all too often accused of NOT being. )

Im glad they got this done so soon.

[Ferd]

I have a hard time believing this rumor, but it is best for the UPCI if this did happen. It's kind of like "tough love"! :D

PM, it is my considered opinion that this rumor is in fact, fact.

[Mrs. LPW]

I have a question for anyone who might have a serious or sensible answer... not for debate or ridicule...

Why would someone belong to both organizations at the same time?
For fellowshipping?

And, why would someone who was already looking at the WPF, for a preferred Apostolic future, be forced out by the UPCI making this decision?
Most likely if they were considering WPF they wouldn't be satisfied with the UPCI as it presently is.. and thus it wouldn't make much of a difference to whether they leave or stay.

I guess I'm thinking of how I would look at it, if I had a problem with the tv advertising etc.


BUMP

[Markus]

My question is, who in the world makes enough money to retain two licenses with two different organizations? I can sometimes barely keep up with one.

[A_PoMo]

A friend of mine, who has pretty good contacts w/the Gen Board, called me tonight. Since I had him on the phone I asked him about this and he said he could not confirm or deny. However, he said it made sense to pass this sort of thing though since it's what, as far as he knows, is already written into the manual that you can't carry cards w/two orgs.

He did tell me that he was invited to go hear Hillary Clinton speak at an ALJC church in the Buckeye state this weekend which I thought was pretty cool. He can't go because he can't afford the cross-counry airfare at such short notice.

[chaotic_resolve]

A good source has reported that the General board of the UPCI has voted TODAY against dual membership for WPF and UPCI ministers. Has anyone heard this? If true ... what are the repercussions?
Good move. Since WPF has become exactly what the founders said it wasn't - a full-fledged organization, not fellowship - it would cause problems in the long run to have ministers serving under two very different bodies of ministers. Not to mention the various rules and regulations both organizations have.

[ChTatum]

Good move. Since WPF has become exactly what the founders said it wasn't - a full-fledged organization, not fellowship - it would cause problems in the long run have ministers serving under two very different bodies of ministers. Not to mention the various rules and regulations both organizations have.


Was the evolution accidental? Or were the founders less than forthcoming in their stated intentions?


Things that make you go hmmmmm..............

[Amos]

I disagree.

the long standing rule in the UPCI is that you cannot hold dual membership with any other Apostolic organization.

You cannot be UPCI and ALJC
You cannot be AWCF and UPCI

why would one think they can be WWPF and UPCI?

makes no since to allow the WWPF guys to stay. Do disrespect here. simply being consistance (something the UPCI is all too often accused of NOT being. )

Im glad they got this done so soon.


I guess you can be UPC and NCO though.

Go figure.

You can join a group that has heretics of vasrious flavors under its "Big Tent" philosophy, but you can't join a group that believes what the UPC used to.

I get it.

[Monkeyman]

I guess you can be UPC and NCO though.

Go figure.

You can join a group that has heretics of vasrious flavors under its "Big Tent" philosophy, but you can't join a group that believes what the UPC used to.

I get it.Woah hoss, I believe some NCO folks are on AFF, heretic is kinda downright dirty ain't it??

[Sam]

...
He did tell me that he was invited to go hear Hillary Clinton speak at an ALJC church in the Buckeye state this weekend which I thought was pretty cool. He can't go because he can't afford the cross-counry airfare at such short notice.

I went to an ALJC church in Ohio for several years in the nineteen sixties and seventies. I was also licensed with the ALJC for 3 or 4 years in the nineteen seventies. Which ALJC church is Hillary speaking in?

[A_PoMo]

Sam, I just noticed that you've been walking the walk since 1955. Wow, kudos and honor to you. I'm inspired.

[A_PoMo]

I went to an ALJC church in Ohio for several years in the nineteen sixties and seventies. I was also licensed with the ALJC for 3 or 4 years in the nineteen seventies. Which ALJC church is Hillary speaking in?

Will I get in trouble for posting that information?

[Amos]

Woah hoss, I believe some NCO folks are on AFF, heretic is kinda downright dirty ain't it??

Not all NCO folks are heretics, and I didn't say that.

But they do allow divine flesh folks, and their antithesis, the Rowes, who believe the Adam doctrine.

Not to mention those who have totally walked away from separation.

Their umbrella encompasses all that and more.

[ChTatum]

Will I get in trouble for posting that information?

Probably not, but the church should feel some negative feedback.

[Monkeyman]

Will I get in trouble for posting that information?Ferd already bought his ticket:)

[Ferd]

I guess you can be UPC and NCO though.

Go figure.

You can join a group that has heretics of vasrious flavors under its "Big Tent" philosophy, but you can't join a group that believes what the UPC used to.

I get it.

LOL! Amos, the big benifit of the NCO is you get an email every once in a while.

WWPF is giving people benifits, has a bible school, bought property for a headquarters...etc.

so if a guy is NCO, is he really part of two seperate organization?

if a guy is part of the WWPF and the UPCI? well now, seems to me its a no brainer.

[Sam]

Sam, I just noticed that you've been walking the walk since 1955. Wow, kudos and honor to you. I'm inspired.

When the religious world was celebrating a century of Pentecost (1906-2006) I was celebrating a half century of Pentecost (1956-2006).

[Ferd]

Ferd already bought his ticket:)

I just got my ticket to Canada. I have also found a place up there where I can purchase certain items used to extract information from individuals discussed in other threads today.....



CCC cant be that hard to find.

[Mrs. LPW]

I just got my ticket to Canada. I have also found a place up there where I can purchase certain items used to extract information from individuals discussed in other threads today.....



CCC cant be that hard to find.


:toofunny

[Scott Hutchinson]

To the best of my knowledge The UPCI has never allowed double carding so this wouldn't surprise me.
I understand The ALJC doesn't allow double carding either but alot of ALJC folks belong to the IAF as well.

[jrLA]

IF this is true.....then I can't say that I am NOT surprised! I have said all along, I don't see how it could be any other way! Choose you this day.....UPC or WPF!:party

[jrLA]

And for all of you doomsday-ers! The UPC will be just fine! We will make it and be better for it! :party

[Sam]

To the best of my knowledge The UPCI has never allowed double carding so this wouldn't surprise me.
I understand The ALJC doesn't allow double carding either but alot of ALJC folks belong to the IAF as well.

I wonder how much enforcement of the two cards happens.
It's probably up to the district.

Years ago (in the nineteen sixties and seventies) we used to visit a church in Dayton, OH. I've preached there. My ALJC pastor has preached there. We held ALJC youth rallies there. The pastor was ALJC and also was editor of the magazine for the AMA (Apostolic Ministerial Alliance that was founded by Bro. L.R. Ooton in the nineteen forties). I've been there for an AMA conference. So I guess he held papers with both organizations.

[TrmptPraise]

I wonder how much enforcement of the two cards happens.
It's probably up to the district.

Years ago (in the nineteen sixties and seventies) we used to visit a church in Dayton, OH. I've preached there. My ALJC pastor has preached there. We held ALJC youth rallies there. The pastor was ALJC and also was editor of the magazine for the AMA (Apostolic Ministerial Alliance that was founded by Bro. L.R. Ooton in the nineteen forties). I've been there for an AMA conference. So I guess he held papers with both organizations.


Bro. Ellis,

Enlighten me on the AMA for it was before my time. Did they offer youth camps and conventions in place of ALJC events? Did they offer mission programs as a alternative to ALJC events?

Herein lies the difference IMO between ministerial associations and organizations. The WPF is certainly offering alternatives to UPCI events (Bible Quizzing is another example) I think when you have boards, structure, dues, etc... I find it hard to compare the ministerial association to organizational structure of the WPF. Is there any association that any man has joined in the past that is parallel to where we are now with the WPF? On top of that, the WPF has also required that their Executive Chairman not be a member of any other organization. I don't hear anyone saying that is a colossal mistake. If the chairman only holds the position for 2 yrs as required it means as a new one is installed, he must give up his license to any other organization as well.

Please understand that is not an argumentative response. I am sincerely looking forward to response.

[Sam]

Bro. Ellis,

Enlighten me on the AMA for it was before my time. Did they offer youth camps and conventions in place of ALJC events? Did they offer mission programs as a alternative to ALJC events?

Herein lies the difference IMO between ministerial associations and organizations. The WPF is certainly offering alternatives to UPCI events (Bible Quizzing is another example) I think when you have boards, structure, dues, etc... I find it hard to compare the ministerial association to organizational structure of the WPF. Is there any association that any man has joined in the past that is parallel to where we are now with the WPF? On top of that, the WPF has also required that their Executive Chairman not be a member of any other organization. I don't hear anyone saying that is a colossal mistake. If the chairman only holds the position for 2 yrs as required it means as a new one is installed, he must give up his license to any other organization as well.

Please understand that is not an argumentative response. I am sincerely looking forward to response.

I don't know much about the AMA. According to the Fudge book (Christianity without the Cross) Bro. L.R. Ooton formed the AMA in 1941 with nearly 1000 ministers leaving the PAJC. I don't know how accurate that is. The numbers seem pretty high. The only time I saw Bro. Ooton was one time in Dayton some time in the nineteen seventies. He was an old man. There were only a handful of ministers there for the conference and they were mostly older men. Their magazine only listed about half a dozen churches. I don't know if the organization is still active or not.

[tv1a]

Why the need for separate bible quizzing? Separate youth functions? WPF reasons for existence is unscriptural. WPF is looking for a certain breed of apostolic. If they hang around long enough they eventually will get the blond hair blue eye apostolic they search for. The WPF is founded in direct opposition to Paul's command in Romans 14 to stop majoring in minors. Television is minor.

[Sam]

Why the need for separate bible quizzing? Separate youth functions? WPF reasons for existence is unscriptural. WPF is looking for a certain breed of apostolic. If they hang around long enough they eventually will get the blond hair blue eye apostolic they search for. The WPF is founded in direct opposition to Paul's command in Romans 14 to stop majoring in minors. Television is minor.

I agree, but television is not minor to lots of folks.
They feel this is where they have to take their stand.

[TrmptPraise]

I don't know much about the AMA. According to the Fudge book (Christianity without the Cross) Bro. L.R. Ooton formed the AMA in 1941 with nearly 1000 ministers leaving the PAJC. I don't know how accurate that is. The numbers seem pretty high. The only time I saw Bro. Ooton was one time in Dayton some time in the nineteen seventies. He was an old man. There were only a handful of ministers there for the conference and they were mostly older men. Their magazine only listed about half a dozen churches. I don't know if the organization is still active or not.

Thanks, Bro. Ellis. I appreciate your response. I have heard many argue that there is no difference between the WPF and other ministerial associations and that was the premise behind my post.

[SDG]

I guess you can be UPC and NCO though.

Go figure.

You can join a group that has heretics of vasrious flavors under its "Big Tent" philosophy, but you can't join a group that believes what the UPC used to.

I get it.

Go figure, Amos being intellectually dishonest with the viewing public. WWPF is no NCO.

Big difference $$$$$$$.

WWPF has divisions and will be collecting dues and offerings for it's various cloned UPCI divisions.

I know this was the big argument on the con forums but let's be honest fellas.

[TrmptPraise]

Go figure, Amos being intellectually dishonest with the viewing public. WWPF is no NCO.

Big difference $$$$$$$.

WWPF has divisions and will be collecting dues and offerings for it's various cloned UPCI divisions.

I know this was the big argument on the con forums but let's be honest fellas.

why is it you just never simply agree with me....always have to one-up...:ursofunny

[SDG]

why is it you just never simply agree with me....always have to one-up...:ursofunny

This is about the benjamins now, TP ... now that control has been ceded.

[bkstokes]

why is it you just never simply agree with me....always have to one-up...:ursofunny

You guys jesting is the best part of this thread (outside of Mr. Ellis' history lessons). I don't belong to any of these groups NCO, UPC, or WPF although I know people from all of them. Thus, I don't take a side.

[TrmptPraise]

You guys jesting is the best part of this thread (outside of Mr. Ellis' history lessons). I don't belong to any of these groups NCO, UPC, or WPF although I know people from all of them. Thus, I don't take a side.

Hey I appreciated Bro. Ellis' lesson.


I actually think Thad..erm I mean Dan and I probably are pretty close on subject of the organizational "status" of the WPF

[OneAccord]

Did Dan see the new version of 2 Kings 2?

[TrmptPraise]

Did Dan see the new version of 2 Kings 2?

Not sure if he did, but the mantle has been passed.

Did not know you were into prophecy, OA!:bliss

[bishoph]

The UPCI manual states in part Article VII, Section 2, Paragraph 6 "No minister shall be permitted to hold license or ordination with any other religious organization or association," this clearly is not violated by having membership in fellowship which licenses or ordains no one.

I have a question for anyone who might have a serious or sensible answer... not for debate or ridicule...

Why would someone belong to both organizations at the same time?
For fellowshipping?

And, why would someone who was already looking at the WPF, for a preferred Apostolic future, be forced out by the UPCI making this decision?
Most likely if they were considering WPF they wouldn't be satisfied with the UPCI as it presently is.. and thus it wouldn't make much of a difference to whether they leave or stay.

I guess I'm thinking of how I would look at it, if I had a problem with the tv advertising etc.
Again I guess I will take on the role of the AFF resident WPF defnder.:bubble even though I am not yet a member. First, it has been stated many times that the WPF is not an organization any more than the AWCF, IAF, etc are organizations. Both of the "fellowships" which I mention charge dues/membership fees, and have structured departments (more loosely structured than the WPF, but structured none the less.) and were vehemently opposed by the UPCI at their inception. (Especially the AWCF) Both were accused of being competing organizations, and both have proven them (the UPCI) wrong over the years.

The reality is, that while many here doubt the veracity of the WPF founders, and or question their integrity and ethical purity, no one can actually prove that the actions these men have taken are out of hatred, jealousy, greed for power, or any other trumped up charges that have been made. One can only believe that what these men have stated as their motivation is indeed the truth, until such time as it is proven otherwise.

In answer to your question Mrs. LPW, there are many reasons why someone may wish to be in both groups. First, they may be in a situation where they cannot leave the organization because of indebtedness of their church (such as a Home Missions church) or because of family ties. or because their congregation prefers to fellowship in the UPCI, and the Pastor sees the WPF more as a point of fellowship for him rather than his congregation. Again to be fair, one must be required to drop their membership with the YMCA, AWCF, IAF, NCO, or any other "religious" association if the rule will apply to the WPF.


I disagree.

the long standing rule in the UPCI is that you cannot hold dual membership with any other Apostolic organization.

You cannot be UPCI and ALJC
You cannot be AWCF and UPCI

why would one think they can be WWPF and UPCI?

makes no since to allow the WWPF guys to stay. Do disrespect here. simply being consistance (something the UPCI is all too often accused of NOT being. )

Im glad they got this done so soon.

This is not factually accurate. The UPCI manual does not currently prohibit membership with another religious "fellowship." The only prohibition comes from holding license or credentials with another organization. The AWCF, IAF, NCO, and the WPF do not issue license or credentials which allows UPCI members to currently be "members" of such religious associations.

In fact there are many UPCI ministers who belong to the AWCF, IAF, and probably some have even joined the NCO, without any problems with their UPCI membership. (I know DA takes exception with the NCO reference however, it is a "fellowship" of sorts or more accurately IMO a religious association.)

Where you are correct is being ALJC & UPCI would not be acceptable because both issue license and credentials which are specifically prohibited.

LOL! Amos, the big benifit of the NCO is you get an email every once in a while.

WWPF is giving people benifits, has a bible school, bought property for a headquarters...etc.

so if a guy is NCO, is he really part of two seperate organization?

if a guy is part of the WWPF and the UPCI? well now, seems to me its a no brainer.

One small thing here, the WPF has not bought any property for a headquarters. They have leased some office space to handle logistics. The AWCF, IAF, and other groups all have headquarters as well.

[ChicagoPastor]

Go figure, Amos being intellectually dishonest with the viewing public. WWPF is no NCO.

Big difference $$$$$$$.

WWPF has divisions and will be collecting dues and offerings for it's various cloned UPCI divisions.

I know this was the big argument on the con forums but let's be honest fellas.

I agree, Dan.
The NCO doesn't have a Youth Dept and FMD, ect.
There are no dues and no Conferences. It exsits in name.
The NCO doesn't have a National HQ's, no "council" and chairperson.

The NCO doesn't use the UPC mailing list to push it's agenda....

[ChicagoPastor]

I can confirm that this has been passed.
Members of the UPC will not be allowed to carry dual memberships.
This will be enforced by the District Boards.

[bishoph]

I can confirm that this has been passed.
Members of the UPC will not be allowed to carry dual memberships.
This will be enforced by the District Boards.

You are very correct in stating that it has indeed passed and it is up to the District to enforce as they see fit.

Legally the UPCI will have a long arduous road to legally enforcing such a ruling, unless they enforce it upon AWCF, IAF, and other "fellowship" association members as well. JMHO

Also according to the bylaws of the UPCI this "ruling" is not binding unless it is brought to the body for ratification, but this has not always been followed in the past.

[SDG]

I agree, Dan.
The NCO doesn't have a Youth Dept and FMD, ect.
There are no dues and no Conferences. It exsits in name.
The NCO doesn't have a National HQ's, no "council" and chairperson.

The NCO doesn't use the UPC mailing list to push it's agenda....

I can confirm that this has been passed.
Members of the UPC will not be allowed to carry dual memberships.
This will be enforced by the District Boards.

You are very correct in stating that it has indeed passed and it is up to the District to enforce as they see fit.

Legally the UPCI will have a long arduous road to legally enforcing such a ruling, unless they enforce it upon AWCF, IAF, and other "fellowship" association members as well. JMHO

Also according to the bylaws of the UPCI this "ruling" is not binding unless it is brought to the body for ratification, but this has not always been followed in the past.

Thank you gentlemen for confirming.

I was unaware of the need for ratification. In all fairness we would have to see the wording of this resolution to see if it singles out the WPF or if it addresses the other pseudo-orgs.

Also, does anyone know who led the charge for this measure at the meetings? ... I have a hunch that the cheif apologist, DB, either led the charge or was instrumental.

This lays the groundwork to the cat and mouse game I think LB and his posse were planning for in the beginning ... now they WPF will cry "murder" .... and will play victim. If anything the manner in which all of this has been planned is political genius. The WPF will forever claim they were singled out and martyrs for the Holiness cause.

Now LB's next move will be to play this big time .... expect a series of letters ,and maybe a website announcement, crying about this decision. If not by them but by sychophants.

The org in it's zeal will of course make it worse ... by publishing it's reasons for this ...

then it's starts to get ugly because the lines will now be drawn ... no more limbo.

[SDG]

Did Dan see the new version of 2 Kings 2?

No bro. Care to elaborate. :friend

[SDG]

Herein also lies another difference w/ the NCO ...other than the re-directing of funding from the mothership by the WPF.

RULES FOR MEMBERSHIP THAT IMPLY ONE IS ACCOUNTABLE TO THE GOVERNING BODY OF THE WPF:

Section 1. Membership


1. Individuals seeking membership:a) The provided WPF application must be completely filled out and signed by applicant.b) We highly recommend that every member who is not under a pastor’s direct ministry have an Accountability Group of at least three members whose names shall be entered on the Membership Application form in the space provided.These three ministers will make up the member’s “Accountability Group.”c) In the event that questions or violations concerning a member’s life or doctrine be brought to the attention of the Executive Council, the Council shall, in turn, contact that member’s Accountability Group. The Accountability Group shall then investigate the situation.i. The Executive Chairman shall work with the Accountability Group to establish the date and location of the investigation.ii. If one or more members of the Accountability Group cannot attend the investigation, the Executive Chairman shall appoint a member or members of the EC or GC to be a part of the investigation.iii. The Accountability Group shall report to the Executive Council in writing. The EC will make the final decision, based on the written report on said member’s continuing membership, or any other disciplinary action they may deem to be necessary.d) If actions taken by the member’s Accountability Group and the Executive Council are considered unsatisfactory by either the member in question or the individual(s) making the accusation, the following actions shall then be taken:


2. Pay the monthly membership fee of $60.00 on a quarterly basis, that is $180.00 in a timely manner.

[Mrs. LPW]

Bro. Ellis,

Enlighten me on the AMA for it was before my time. Did they offer youth camps and conventions in place of ALJC events? Did they offer mission programs as a alternative to ALJC events?

Herein lies the difference IMO between ministerial associations and organizations. The WPF is certainly offering alternatives to UPCI events (Bible Quizzing is another example) I think when you have boards, structure, dues, etc... I find it hard to compare the ministerial association to organizational structure of the WPF. Is there any association that any man has joined in the past that is parallel to where we are now with the WPF? On top of that, the WPF has also required that their Executive Chairman not be a member of any other organization. I don't hear anyone saying that is a colossal mistake. If the chairman only holds the position for 2 yrs as required it means as a new one is installed, he must give up his license to any other organization as well.

Please understand that is not an argumentative response. I am sincerely looking forward to response.


Well this certainly makes sense!

[SDG]

Also, does not WPF policy de-facto authorize the local assembly to license and ordain? Just a question.

[Mrs. LPW]

No bro. Care to elaborate. :friend

post #29 the prophet speaks

[SDG]

The Book of 2 Kings 2: 11-13 (NEW AFF INTERNET VERSION)


And it came to pass, as they still posted on, and talked about current events, that, behold, a big red limo appeared, with a big Hammond organ, and parted them both asunder; and Thad went in a California earthquake to that big newsroom in the sky.

And Daniel A. saw it, and he posted about it, saying "Relaible sources tell me about this new BOMBSHELL!" And he wrote about Thad no more: but went back to AFF to discuss the pros of the 1 step veiw. And he thumped of his own chest, and, with a voice of thunder, cried, "I'm more Apostolic than you all!"

He took up also the mantle of Thad that fell from him, and went back and posted the latest news on the Apostolic Friends Forum.

One-Step Dan had the mantle of reliability all along .... who broke the UPCI business meeting and gave the play-by-play?

Truth be told ....

Quite frankly there were times Thad was green w/ envy in the last year when I outscooped him on some of the big stories.

[ChicagoPastor]

Thank you gentlemen for confirming.

I was unaware of the need for ratification. In all fairness we would have to see the wording of this resolution to see if it singles out the WPF or if it addresses the other pseudo-orgs.

Also, does anyone know who led the charge for this measure at the meetings? ... I have a hunch that the cheif apologist, DB, either led the charge or was instrumental.

This lays the groundwork to the cat and mouse game I think LB and his posse were planning for in the beginning ... now they WPF will cry "murder" .... and will play victim. If anything the manner in which all of this has been planned is political genius. The WPF will forever claim they were singled out and martyrs for the Holiness cause.

Now LB's next move will be to play this big time .... expect a series of letters ,and maybe a website announcement, crying about this decision. If not by them but by sychophants.

The org in it's zeal will of course make it worse ... by publishing it's reasons for this ...

then it's starts to get ugly because the lines will now be drawn ... no more limbo.

Dan,
God is using you in the gift of prophecy. :tissue

I predict that within 5 years the WPF's story will not be that they left but that they were forced to leave.

[OneAccord]

One-Step Dan had the mantle of reliability all along .... who broke the UPCI business meeting and gave the play-by-play?

Truth be told ....

Quite frankly there were times Thad was green w/ envy in the last year when I outscooped him on some of the big stories.


All in fun, Bro. All in Fun. He was the Dan Rather of the AFF Newsroom. You are Charlie Gibson.

[ChicagoPastor]

One-Step Dan had the mantle of reliability all along .... who broke the UPCI business meeting and gave the play-by-play?

Truth be told ....

Quite frankly there were times Thad was green w/ envy in the last year when I outscooped him on some of the big stories.

I don't want to "toot my own horn" but I'm gonna :)

For those that forget, I SAW the "Thadiac" mantle coming on Dan before his untimely exile!I'm glad he's back.... if only Thad were also back :tantrum

[SDG]

As more info on this filters down ... I am still curious to see what DB's role was in the passage of this last GB resolution.

In his last letter the Southern Texas District, he was the first leader of national stature to allude to formulating the legal basis for the argument against this type of double dipping.

He said, 'To fulfill this plan, the WPF will need to identify ministerial license in some way in order to qualify members, qualify officers, conduct votes, and enforce adherence to its Articles of Faith. However, the Manual of the UPCI states that its ministers cannot be licensed with another “organization or association” (Art. VII, Sec. 2, Par.)

I think he's defining license not as a card, per se... But in qualifying it's constituents.

If he was influential at this week's meeting ... it brings up a whole new set of questions and analysis of his role in the org in the last 15-20 years.

[Whole Hearted]

I can confirm that this has been passed.
Members of the UPC will not be allowed to carry dual memberships.
This will be enforced by the District Boards.

But one can still fellowship and support and not the UPC events, they just can't carry a card.

[SDG]

As more info on this filters down ... I am still curious to see what DB's role was in the passage of this last GB resolution.

In his last letter the Southern Texas District he was the first leader of national stature to allude to formulating the legal basis for the argument against this type of double dipping.

He said, 'To fulfill this plan, the WPF will need to identify ministerial license in some way in order to qualify members, qualify officers, conduct votes, and enforce adherence to its Articles of Faith. However, the Manual of the UPCI states that its ministers cannot be licensed with another “organization or association” (Art. VII, Sec. 2, Par.)

I think he's defining license not as a card, per se. But in qualifying it's constituents.

If he was influential at this week's meeting it brings up a whole new set of questions and analysis of his role in the org in the last 15-20 years.

Click here to read (http://synadelfos.ning.com/group/shoot/forum/topic/show?id=1950554%3ATopic%3A25981) all of DB's January 21, 2008 letter.

[CC1]

There are two ways to view this event;

1. It will force men to leave the UPC who would have remained although part of the WWPF and some will see this as a disasterous mistake unneccesarily causing a "split".

2. It will be painful but is neccessary to maintain unity as those staying with the UPC but joining the WWPF are not happy with the UPC, it's direction, etc and will just continue to sow discord by not fully supporting UPC functions, etc.

[OneAccord]

The spirit of Thad is upon thee...


Luke 2:36 AFF Version

"And there was one Mrs LPW, a prophetess, a female poster of AFF, of the land of the North: she was of great spirit, and who lives to speak that which is true".

[SDG]

There are two ways to view this event;

1. It will force men to leave the UPC who would have remained although part of the WWPF and some will see this ias a disasterous mistake unneccarily causing a "split".

2. It will be painful but is neccessary to maintain unity as those staying with the UPC but joining the WWPF are not happy with the UPC, it's direction, etc and will just continue to sow discord by not fully supporting UPC functions, etc.

Yeah, I don't get this aspect ... why legitimize the WPF even further? Between the letters coming from leadership and now this the UPCI is making the WPF bigger than what it is.

The war room needs to get it's act together.

[CC1]

Da,

Do you really want a bunch of men who are malcontent enough to hitch on to the WWPF hanging around to continue to gripe and moan about the UPC and boycott official functions, etc?

I think a case can be made for both perspectives.

[SDG]

Da,

Do you really want a bunch of men who are malcontent enough to hitch on to the WWPF hanging around to continue to gripe and moan about the UPC and boycott official functions, etc?

I think a case can be made for both perspectives.

But herein lies the genius behind the way LB and his posse set this up ...

By staying they could still affect the political structure and form a coalition for "regression" to infiltrate the org ....

or force the UPCI's hand ... and legitimize their existence by making the org draw the lines for separation.

This is checkmate ... if this thing is enforced. They've been played.

[SDG]

But one can still fellowship and support and not the UPC events, they just can't carry a card.

WH, does possessing a card mean one is licensed/qualified?

[ReformedDave]

WH, does possessing a card mean one is licensed/qualified?

No. But then there is no real standard of qualification necessary today....as is well demonstrated by some here.

[Ferd]

The UPCI manual states in part Article VII, Section 2, Paragraph 6 "No minister shall be permitted to hold license or ordination with any other religious organization or association," this clearly is not violated by having membership in fellowship which licenses or ordains no one.


Again I guess I will take on the role of the AFF resident WPF defnder.:bubble even though I am not yet a member. First, it has been stated many times that the WPF is not an organization any more than the AWCF, IAF, etc are organizations. Both of the "fellowships" which I mention charge dues/membership fees, and have structured departments (more loosely structured than the WPF, but structured none the less.) and were vehemently opposed by the UPCI at their inception. (Especially the AWCF) Both were accused of being competing organizations, and both have proven them (the UPCI) wrong over the years.

The reality is, that while many here doubt the veracity of the WPF founders, and or question their integrity and ethical purity, no one can actually prove that the actions these men have taken are out of hatred, jealousy, greed for power, or any other trumped up charges that have been made. One can only believe that what these men have stated as their motivation is indeed the truth, until such time as it is proven otherwise.

In answer to your question Mrs. LPW, there are many reasons why someone may wish to be in both groups. First, they may be in a situation where they cannot leave the organization because of indebtedness of their church (such as a Home Missions church) or because of family ties. or because their congregation prefers to fellowship in the UPCI, and the Pastor sees the WPF more as a point of fellowship for him rather than his congregation. Again to be fair, one must be required to drop their membership with the YMCA, AWCF, IAF, NCO, or any other "religious" association if the rule will apply to the WPF.




This is not factually accurate. The UPCI manual does not currently prohibit membership with another religious "fellowship." The only prohibition comes from holding license or credentials with another organization. The AWCF, IAF, NCO, and the WPF do not issue license or credentials which allows UPCI members to currently be "members" of such religious associations.

In fact there are many UPCI ministers who belong to the AWCF, IAF, and probably some have even joined the NCO, without any problems with their UPCI membership. (I know DA takes exception with the NCO reference however, it is a "fellowship" of sorts or more accurately IMO a religious association.)

Where you are correct is being ALJC & UPCI would not be acceptable because both issue license and credentials which are specifically prohibited.



One small thing here, the WPF has not bought any property for a headquarters. They have leased some office space to handle logistics. The AWCF, IAF, and other groups all have headquarters as well.

I see one point of factual correction.

the property controled by the WWPF is leased not purchased.

beyond that I see no real corrections.

I suspect there are members of the WWPF that were against dual membership in the AWCF and UPCI not long ago no?

Let me state clearly that I believe the motives of these men in starting the WWPF, is to create a fellowship/organization of like minded conservitive men.

they believe the UPCIs drift is away from the path they hold to.

I am not trying to project anything more.

that being said, the UPCI has every right to take this stand. They SHOULD take this stand and I would be personally upset if they did NOT take this stand.

You have a clear situation where the WPF has already set forth its own goals and desires. They have a clear path in what they seek to accomplish.

When the goals of the WWPF are at cross purposeses with the goals and desires of the UPCI,you will have men belonging to both groups voting in the UPCI. These men will ethically be placed in a bad situation.

It only stands to reason that the UPCI would protect themselves from such a situation!

I wish the WWPF all the best. I pray for their success in reaching the lost, just as I do the UPCI, AMF, ALJC (except one church back home but that is another story)....

[Ferd]

As more info on this filters down ... I am still curious to see what DB's role was in the passage of this last GB resolution.

In his last letter the Southern Texas District, he was the first leader of national stature to allude to formulating the legal basis for the argument against this type of double dipping.

He said, 'To fulfill this plan, the WPF will need to identify ministerial license in some way in order to qualify members, qualify officers, conduct votes, and enforce adherence to its Articles of Faith. However, the Manual of the UPCI states that its ministers cannot be licensed with another “organization or association” (Art. VII, Sec. 2, Par.)

I think he's defining license not as a card, per se... But in qualifying it's constituents.

If he was influential at this week's meeting ... it brings up a whole new set of questions and analysis of his role in the org in the last 15-20 years.


Dan, I dont have any informatoin on DB and his roll, but I am pretty certain that he was not the only one pushing for this.

I suspect there were a number of men on the General Board who all felt this way.

[SDG]

Dan, I dont have any informatoin on DB and his roll, but I am pretty certain that he was not the only one pushing for this.

I suspect there were a number of men on the General Board who all felt this way.

Most certainly he wasn't the only one ... Was he part of the hawks at the meeting? Did he give a legal basis for this?

[Ferd]

Most certainly he wasn't the only one ... Was he part of the hawks at the meeting? Did he give a legal basis for this?

well, I think we can all speculate that he was PART of the group pushing this.

i also know that the sentiment in the board by at least a solid number was that they simply would not be allowed to be part of both.

[SDG]

well, I think we can all speculate that he was PART of the group pushing this.

i also know that the sentiment in the board by at least a solid number was that they simply would not be allowed to be part of both.

If he was Ferd ... think of the irony... if he did.

He was the chief apologist at the 1992 GC for the affirmation statement. The document that push out the libs ... and bred the vitriole in cons when it wasn't enforced ... only to come to our present situation where if he was instrumental in this ....his role would now push out the conservatives ...

This would mean that DB, through his passion for "truth" and the org, has effectively/inadvertantly helped in the exodus of hundreds of ministers .... while making the org reflect his moderate ideals

[Mrs. LPW]

For one, there isn't one man who is responsible for everything the UPCI says or does... and for another, isn't moderation what the NT ascribes?

I'm just guessing, and I could be entirely wrong.. but you seem to have some unresolved issues.

[Ferd]

If he was Ferd ... think of the irony if he did.

He was the cheif apologist at the 1992 GC for the affirmation statement. The document that push out the libs ... and bred the vitriole in cons when it wasn't enforced ... only to come to our present situation where if he was instrumental in this his role would now push out the conservatives ...

This would mean that DB, through his passion for "truth" and the org, has effectively/inadvertantly helped in the exodus of hundreds of ministers .... while making the org reflect his moderate ideals

That is a very interesting observation..

I like moderates.

[CC1]

Most certainly he wasn't the only one ... Was he part of the hawks at the meeting? Did he give a legal basis for this?

I don't think you can characterize those with that position as "Hawks". They actually are probably the moderate / liberal forces in the UPC seeing that the discord should not continue, that these discontented men should make a clean break from the UPC and go where their heart is.

[SDG]

For one, there isn't one man who is responsible for everything the UPCI says or does... and for another, isn't moderation what the NT ascribes?

I'm just guessing, and I could be entirely wrong.. but you seem to have some unresolved issues.

Lady LPW ... I have tremendous respect for DB and our 2 interactions have been very pleasant ..

I am a student of history ... my BA is in American History... and am analyzing this thru data and documents.

I really believe DB is the next UPCI GS in 2009.

[Mrs. LPW]

Lady LPW ... I have tremendous respect for DB and our 2 interactions have been very pleasant ..

I am a student of history ... my BA is in American History... and am analyzing this thru data and documents.

I really believe DB is the next UPCI GS in 2009.

I really appreciate you clarifying that for me. I was under the impression you and he might have a negative history.

[SDG]

I don't think you can characterize those with that position as "Hawks". They actually are probably the moderate / liberal forces in the UPC seeing that the discord should not continue, that these discontented men should make a clean break from the UPC and go where their heart is.

Hawks is a political reference, CC1 .... it does not connote political ideology towards conservatism ... in any Presidential administration for example there will be those who push for more aggressive or pro-active actions ... they are often called hawks ... the doves would be those looking for a more peaceful or passive approach.

[SDG]

I really appreciate you clarifying that for me. I was under the impression you and he might have a negative history.

No m'am. I did interact w/ him when I served in Spanish Ministries (promotions) a little at some of the SEM national conferences ...

and he responded very kindly to my letter of resignation asking me to stay w/ the org... a few months after I transferred here from the NYMD to the Texas Southern District in 2006.

His influence in the org in the last decades cannot be ignored, however.

[Kutless]

Also, does not WPF policy de-facto authorize the local assembly to license and ordain? Just a question.Is this true? I don't see where anyone answered it.

[DividedThigh]

if db became the gs, that would not be a shocker to me, but what happens to jj, at that point, out to pasture, he aint that kind, least i dont think, lol,dt

[Straightline]

You mean I have to choose between the UPC and the NRA??????
Hard choice.

How will the UPC enforce this when the membership of the WPF has not yet been published? At Tulsa, there were only six members - the exec. council.
While they claim several hundred now, only they know the names. How will the UPC (at this point) know who carries more than one fellowship card???
Add it to the AS? "...and I do not carry any other cards".

The UPC leadership has not handled this well from the beginning, IMHO.


The Name is always signed on a
Straightline

[Ferd]

if db became the gs, that would not be a shocker to me, but what happens to jj, at that point, out to pasture, he aint that kind, least i dont think, lol,dt

DT, this is the wierdest thing.

JJ is a man who is well respected (and rightfully so) in the org. but at the same time, it seems he is kind of a forgotten element.

It seems his name always comes up, just somewhere in the bottom half of the names being mentioned.

It is odd to me but none the less, true.

I think he will likely always be a factor of some kind, but never the guy.

[Esther]

I have a question for anyone who might have a serious or sensible answer... not for debate or ridicule...

Why would someone belong to both organizations at the same time?
For fellowshipping?

And, why would someone who was already looking at the WPF, for a preferred Apostolic future, be forced out by the UPCI making this decision?
Most likely if they were considering WPF they wouldn't be satisfied with the UPCI as it presently is.. and thus it wouldn't make much of a difference to whether they leave or stay.

I guess I'm thinking of how I would look at it, if I had a problem with the tv advertising etc.


This post makes sense to me. :)

[CC1]

Hawks is a political reference, CC1 .... it does not connote political ideology towards conservatism ... in any Presidential administration for example there will be those who push for more aggressive or pro-active actions ... they are often called hawks ... the doves would be those looking for a more peaceful or passive approach.

In politics typically liberals are "dovish" and conservatives are "hawks" although within that paradigm there exists degrees of hawkishness or dovishness as in the last few years the "neo con" wing of the Republican party are more "hawkish" than some others in the party. I fully understand the meaning of the words Dan.

[Ferd]

You mean I have to choose between the UPC and the NRA??????
Hard choice.

How will the UPC enforce this when the membership of the WPF has not yet been published? At Tulsa, there were only six members - the exec. council.
While they claim several hundred now, only they know the names. How will the UPC (at this point) know who carries more than one fellowship card???
Add it to the AS? "...and I do not carry any other cards".

The UPC leadership has not handled this well from the beginning, IMHO.


The Name is always signed on a
Straightline

Straightline, if there is any integrity at all with the men signing up with the WWPF, they will simply drop their UPCI affliliation based on this decision.

to a man, these guys have spoken loudly and often about the lack of integrity in the men who sign the Infernal Document but own Televisions.

I cannot see how a single one of these men can live with themselves if they violate the rule in the UPCI, considering their view of the UPCIs rules in the past.

and that is as straight a line as you can draw!

[Mrs. LPW]

This post makes sense to me. :)

It makes sense to me too :toofunny

[SDG]

You mean I have to choose between the UPC and the NRA??????
Hard choice.

How will the UPC enforce this when the membership of the WPF has not yet been published? At Tulsa, there were only six members - the exec. council.
While they claim several hundred now, only they know the names. How will the UPC (at this point) know who carries more than one fellowship card???
Add it to the AS? "...and I do not carry any other cards".

The UPC leadership has not handled this well from the beginning, IMHO.


The Name is always signed on a
Straightline

The pruning process will take time SL ... of course ... but the lines are drawn and that's what will exacerbate this situation.

[SDG]

DT, this is the wierdest thing.

JJ is a man who is well respected (and rightfully so) in the org. but at the same time, it seems he is kind of a forgotten element.

It seems his name always comes up, just somewhere in the bottom half of the names being mentioned.

It is odd to me but none the less, true.

I think he will likely always be a factor of some kind, but never the guy.

Forgotten but runs the day-to-day operations.

[Mrs. LPW]

Forgotten but runs the day-to-day operations.

He'll probably be more happy with his reward in heaven than any he might get here anyway. :) Come to think of it... being GS of the UPCI isn't my idea of a great reward. But I guess that depends on how you look at it. Some would say it would be a privilege, I would say it'd be more stress than I need.

[SDG]

Another feasible theory floating around is that DRAWING THE LINES is exactly what progressives want and only solidfies their plans for the future. The Trojan Horse theory.

KH and the men who will make up the leadership in the next generation have been frustrated by many of these UCs because they have been held back from being as progressive as they want to be. (Of course we can't use liberal in the OP sense of the word)

By forcing these guys out, and lets assume the number is conservatively 200, this effectively builds a stronger voting bloc for progressive ideas.

The TV vote had what? 2500 ministers voting? The split was 49% 51%? It passed by a slim majority of about 80 votes.

Change those numbers by 200 and the progressives have a lock to further their agenda.

[SDG]

In politics typically liberals are "dovish" and conservatives are "hawks" although within that paradigm there exists degrees of hawkishness or dovishness as in the last few years the "neo con" wing of the Republican party are more "hawkish" than some others in the party. I fully understand the meaning of the words Dan.

I meant it to describe those in the meeting pushing hard for this as houw you exemplified. See bolded. :friend

[DividedThigh]

DT, this is the wierdest thing.

JJ is a man who is well respected (and rightfully so) in the org. but at the same time, it seems he is kind of a forgotten element.

It seems his name always comes up, just somewhere in the bottom half of the names being mentioned.

It is odd to me but none the less, true.

I think he will likely always be a factor of some kind, but never the guy.

that makes sense, i mean not literally but your explanation would also match my understanding, it was always that way with bro becton too, know what i mean, and i loved him, bro becton that is, dt

[SDG]

He'll probably be more happy with his reward in heaven than any he might get here anyway. :) Come to think of it... being GS of the UPCI isn't my idea of a great reward. But I guess that depends on how you look at it. Some would say it would be a privilege, I would say it'd be more stress than I need.

IMO, JJ is very ambitious, Lady LPW. Nor do I doubt his commitment to serve.

[SDG]

Straightline, if there is any integrity at all with the men signing up with the WWPF, they will simply drop their UPCI affliliation based on this decision.

to a man, these guys have spoken loudly and often about the lack of integrity in the men who sign the Infernal Document but own Televisions.

I cannot see how a single one of these men can live with themselves if they violate the rule in the UPCI, considering their view of the UPCIs rules in the past.

and that is as straight a line as you can draw!

ooo ... that there is a conundrum ... the rule of law crowd now will have to eat some crow.

[Mrs. LPW]

He'll probably be more happy with his reward in heaven than any he might get here anyway. :) Come to think of it... being GS of the UPCI isn't my idea of a great reward. But I guess that depends on how you look at it. Some would say it would be a privilege, I would say it'd be more stress than I need.

IMO, JJ is very ambitious, Lady LPW. Nor do I doubt his commitment to serve.

I don't doubt his ambition or commitment to serve either, but I do doubt he's crying himself to sleep at night because he's not GS. I can't see him being driven to be in power... he doesn't strike me as that type at all.

Our DS is a very committed man, who serves us to the best of his ability. But he only took the DS job (for the second time, after being off that duty for a few years) because that was what the brethren wanted. I imagine JJ would accept the GS position if voted in, and serve well.

[CC1]

I think "ambition" can be a good thing in the right dose. It is those who let ambition become the focus of their lives that end up in a ditch.

[Mrs. LPW]

I think "ambition" can be a good thing in the right dose. It is those who let ambition become the focus of their lives that end up in a ditch.

I agree... and I have to say I don't see that as JJ's focus.

[SDG]

I can't see him being driven to be in power... he doesn't strike me as that type at all.
.

There a many who would disagree w/ this assessment.

[Mrs. LPW]

There a many who would disagree w/ this assessment.

And there are many who would be much better served keeping their own counsel... and keeping watch over their own souls and their own sheep than worrying about who is going to get the coveted positions in HQ.

Even if JJ were driven for power... the men who sit back and criticize, in my estimation (which is only mine and ever so humble :) ) are no better.

[tv1a]

What makes wpf different than the organizations you mention is the deliberate intentions of leadership to drive a wedge between the upci and its preachers. The other organizations to the best of my knowledge were not founded to keep undesirables out. The wpf was established to continue the unscritpural policies of segregations.

You are very correct in stating that it has indeed passed and it is up to the District to enforce as they see fit.

Legally the UPCI will have a long arduous road to legally enforcing such a ruling, unless they enforce it upon AWCF, IAF, and other "fellowship" association members as well. JMHO

Also according to the bylaws of the UPCI this "ruling" is not binding unless it is brought to the body for ratification, but this has not always been followed in the past.

[dizzyde]

then it's starts to get ugly because the lines will now be drawn ... no more limbo.

There are two ways to view this event;

1. It will force men to leave the UPC who would have remained although part of the WWPF and some will see this as a disasterous mistake unneccesarily causing a "split".



These are the points I was trying to make earlier. I personally know of a lot of good men who have been "on the fence", and confused over the situation.

There are a lot of factors involved with these guys, including long standing friendships and seeing men who were their spiritual mentors leaving. If the UPC laid low on this issue and let these guys watch and wait a little, they might ultimately come to see that leaving isn't the best course of action.

By drawing the line in the sand, they are forcing them to make a immediate choice, one that will possibly end in hard feelings and forever alienate. IMHO

[DividedThigh]

the general board will vote, the compliant will comply, the rebellious will rebel, and good lord willing the sun will come up tomorrow, and please lord no more snow, yes i am begging, dt:laffatu

[jrLA]

These are the points I was trying to make earlier. I personally know of a lot of good men who have been "on the fence", and confused over the situation.

There are a lot of factors involved with these guys, including long standing friendships and seeing men who were their spiritual mentors leaving. If the UPC laid low on this issue and let these guys watch and wait a little, they might ultimately come to see that leaving isn't the best course of action.

By drawing the line in the sand, they are forcing them to make a immediate choice, one that will possibly end in hard feelings and forever alienate. IMHO


With all due respect Dizzy....The UPC didn't make this happen. They are not forcing anyone out. I don't see where they had a choice in the matter at all.

It is sad. My heart is heavy about all of this, but, the blame does not rest solely on the UPCI! God help us!

But, we will survive! I pray for all involved, as well as our WPF brethren. I do not agree with what they have done, but I don't harbor any hard feelings. We must make heaven! It has been said before....There won't be spereate rooms in heaven.....UPCI HERE.......WPF THERE.......

:tissue

[jrLA]

There a many who would disagree w/ this assessment.

Disagree or not....these type statements should NOT be made. This is judgementalism...Ohh, wait, I thought liberal folks didn't judge! OOpps
did I say that out loud!
:oops:doh

[NLYP]

I have not read far into this...But I will tell you it is a fact!

[SDG]

We must make heaven! It has been said before....There won't be spereate rooms in heaven.....UPCI HERE.......WPF THERE.......

:tissue

Last I heard OP Pentecostals will get a suite .... the rest of heaven will be for the rest of the saved Christian world ... we wouldn't want to disappoint anyone. Gabe is my source.

[jrLA]

Last I heard OP Pentecostals will get a suite .... the rest of heaven will be for the rest of the saved Christian world ... we wouldn't want to disappoint anyone. Gabe is my source.

You're funny Dan! :bliss

[SDG]

Disagree or not....these type statements should NOT be made. This is judgementalism...Ohh, wait, I thought liberal folks didn't judge! OOpps
did I say that out loud!
:oops:doh

Junior ... where do you read that it's only liberals who hold this view in that statement or who believes this? Reading in between the lines is one thing .... but GOSH!!!!

[SDG]

You're funny Dan! :bliss

Thanx, yo.

[jrLA]

Junior ... where do you that it's only liberals who hold this view in that statement or who believes this? Reading in between the lines is one thing .... but GOSH!!!!

Dan...first of all jrLA doesn't mean junior!


Secondly, just a tic thing....lighten up!

:kickcan

[NLYP]

Dan...first of all jrLA doesn't mean junior!


Secondly, just a tic thing....lighten up!

:kickcan

Really....man I didnt know that! :bliss:laffatu:gaga

[SDG]

Really....man I didnt know that! :bliss:laffatu:gaga

I knew it but I knew it's a hot button.

[dizzyde]

With all due respect Dizzy....The UPC didn't make this happen. They are not forcing anyone out. I don't see where they had a choice in the matter at all.

It is sad. My heart is heavy about all of this, but, the blame does not rest solely on the UPCI! God help us!

But, we will survive! I pray for all involved, as well as our WPF brethren. I do not agree with what they have done, but I don't harbor any hard feelings. We must make heaven! It has been said before....There won't be spereate rooms in heaven.....UPCI HERE.......WPF THERE.......

:tissue

I never said that the UPC made this happen, what I implied was that I was afraid they were making a bad situation worse with this decision.

BTW, I am for all intents and purposes UPC, so don't think I am against the organization, OK?

[TrmptPraise]

Dan...first of all jrLA doesn't mean junior!


Secondly, just a tic thing....lighten up!

:kickcan

I knew it but I knew it's a hot button.

Always the instigator....;)

[SDG]

Always the instigator....;)

Quien yo???

[TrmptPraise]

Quien yo???

Sí, usted. Usted no puede negarlo.

[jrLA]

I never said that the UPC made this happen, what I implied was that I was afraid they were making a bad situation worse with this decision.

BTW, I am for all intents and purposes UPC, so don't think I am against the organization, OK?

I don't think that. Did not mean to imply that. I just don't see how they had any other choice in the matter!

UPCI WPF
dues yep
bible quizing yep
ladies min yep
F Missions yep
Gen Conf Summit
Etc. yep

So how can one be a part of both? The other would suffer. Different directions or focus! Just too confusing!

[jrLA]

Really....man I didnt know that! :bliss:laffatu:gaga

My initials are J R


:laffatu

[jrLA]

Quien yo???

:blah:bow:ignore:naughty

[Ferd]

I don't think that. Did not mean to imply that. I just don't see how they had any other choice in the matter!

UPCI WPF
dues yep
bible quizing yep
ladies min yep
F Missions yep
Gen Conf Summit
Etc. yep

So how can one be a part of both? The other would suffer. Different directions or focus! Just too confusing!

Not to mention putting these preachers in the position of voting in UPCI meetings, potentially on subjects that are at cross purposes with the WWPF. it becomes a matter of ethics at some point.

[Jehoram]

One-Step Dan had the mantle of reliability all along .... who broke the UPCI business meeting and gave the play-by-play?

Truth be told ....

Quite frankly there were times Thad was green w/ envy in the last year when I outscooped him on some of the big stories.

Hmm, I wonder who fed you all of that juicy "on the spot" information from Conference?


lol

[tv1a]

Anyone suggesting the wpf is no different than the other organizations need to read the below list. Preachers stuck in the middle are there because the want to be there. The wpf can cry foul all they want, but the dirty underhanded tactics are coming from them.

I don't think that. Did not mean to imply that. I just don't see how they had any other choice in the matter!

UPCI WPF
dues yep
bible quizing yep
ladies min yep
F Missions yep
Gen Conf Summit
Etc. yep

So how can one be a part of both? The other would suffer. Different directions or focus! Just too confusing!

[Jehoram]

Is this true? I don't see where anyone answered it.Yes.

It is true.

[Kutless]

Yes.

It is true.WOW Bro Ego, thanks for the clarification. That sure will make it easier for the young ministers:kickcan

[Ferd]

Anyone suggesting the wpf is no different than the other organizations need to read the below list. Preachers stuck in the middle are there because the want to be there. The wpf can cry foul all they want, but the dirty underhanded tactics are coming from them.

you dont have to be quite that harsh.

they are what they are. no need to paint them as dirty and underhanded.

i dont agree with them. that doesnt mean they are somehow evil.

[Jehoram]

WOW Bro Ego, thanks for the clarification. That sure will make it easier for the young ministers:kickcan

How so?

Now the local pastor will hold the young ministers on a very short leash.

There will be no oversight committees for the young man to appeal to.

Talk about control?

sheesh

[DividedThigh]

wasnt it always about control to some people, really, dt:bliss

[SDG]

Hmm, I wonder who fed you all of that juicy "on the spot" information from Conference?


lol

A canary.

[Kutless]

How so?

Now the local pastor will hold the young ministers on a very short leash.

Their will be no oversight committees for the young man to appeal to.

Talk about control?

sheeshsorry it was my poor attempt at humor.....wrong smilie

[SDG]

you dont have to be quite that harsh.

they are what they are. no need to paint them as dirty and underhanded.

i dont agree with them. that doesnt mean they are somehow evil.

I think he was painting their TACTICS as such :gaga

[Ferd]

I think he was painting their TACTICS as such :gaga

I will buy that. I still think there is no reason to go there.


my disagreement with the WWPF doesnt mean I need to disparage them. We can talk about what they have done in spicific terms, but we dont really know what is in their hearts that motivates them.

i dont know. i just dont want to be wrong about this myself. know what I mean?

[DividedThigh]

my personal feeling is let the bros do what they want to do, have a new organization, whatever, on the other hand belong to both fellowships, i dont think so, just my honest opinion, worth the cost of 10 seconds of my time, lol,dt

[tv1a]

wpf has been less than honorable througout the entire ordeal. an organization with no intent on being divisive will not start their own foreign missions department, general conferences, bible quizzing teams, etc.

The parallels with wpf and segregation is more than coincindence.

I will buy that. I still think there is no reason to go there.


my disagreement with the WWPF doesnt mean I need to disparage them. We can talk about what they have done in spicific terms, but we dont really know what is in their hearts that motivates them.

i dont know. i just dont want to be wrong about this myself. know what I mean?

[SDG]

wpf has been less than honorable througout the entire ordeal. an organization with no intent on being divisive will not start their own foreign missions department, general conferences, bible quizzing teams, etc.

The parallels with wpf and segregation is more than coincindence.

Unfortunately this structure is already a dinosaur.

[NW Pastor]

If this is true.......several members of the WPF General Counsel serve on the General Board, so this could be very interesting indeed.

I can quote a very well known conference preacher (name withheld to protect the guilty) who told his DS "please don't make me choose, because you might not like the choice I make." If the UPCI takes such a stand, the have not learned anything from their past. The AMF, AWCF, both gained members who had no intention of leaving, but were not going to be "forced" to be exclusive. IMHO this decision, if indeed true, would take the UPCI back into the dark ages as it relates to open fellowship and breaking down the walls that separate us that KH has been an advocate of.

Who has been erecting the walls that separate us? Who has denied fellowship to whom? Is this the pot not calling the kettle black? Many WPF'rs have not changed. The had erected walls between them and others in the UPCI already. They had already formed their own fellowship groups, youth camps, and the like.

To now accuse the UPCI of erecting walls of separation between us is ludicrous. Actually, this move was probably the anticipated response the WPF leadership expected from the UPCI. Then they can highlight their stance of "we are not causing division, they are." Of course this kind of logic begs the question of who left whom?

[pelathais]

The spirit of Thad is upon thee...

:toofunny

(Where is the Saint these days?)

I can't see anyone wanting to belong to the WPF and the UPCI both anyway.. just my opinion here, but those who joined WPF or have interest in doing so, are looking for an alternative to the UPCI it seems.
Just catching up on this thread and haven't read all the way through yet...

I sense a bit of disappointment over the WPF among the "ultracon" crowd. From their perspective there may not be all that much difference between UPC and WPF.

The leading WPF churches have Internet video broadcasts that resemble television production values. They use the "praise dancers" or whatever you want to call it. Most of them really don't appear to be much different than the UPC. The way it looks to me is that no "alternative" has really emerged. Those who want to leave will probably do so but go the independent route.

I actually liked the way some of the doctrines were articulated in the WPF docs. it's a shame they couldn't interact more within the UPC.

And, I still say that if NW had been elected California DS he would have proven to be a faithful UPC leader and would not have gone to Tulsa.

[pelathais]

If this is true.......several members of the WPF General Counsel serve on the General Board, so this could be very interesting indeed.

I can quote a very well known conference preacher (name withheld to protect the guilty) who told his DS "please don't make me choose, because you might not like the choice I make." If the UPCI takes such a stand, the have not learned anything from their past. The AMF, AWCF, both gained members who had no intention of leaving, but were not going to be "forced" to be exclusive. IMHO this decision, if indeed true, would take the UPCI back into the dark ages as it relates to open fellowship and breaking down the walls that separate us that KH has been an advocate of.
I'm puzzled by your perspective, bishoph. Who has been promoting the divisions? Who has been holding seperate Youth Camps? Wasn't the very first action of the WPF the organization of a seperate Bible Quizzing ministry?

[TrmptPraise]

I'm puzzled by your perspective, bishoph. Who has been promoting the divisions? Who has been holding seperate Youth Camps? Wasn't the very first action of the WPF the organization of a seperate bible Quizzing ministry?

Being missing you, bro! Good to see you.

[pelathais]

I don't think that. Did not mean to imply that. I just don't see how they had any other choice in the matter!

UPCI WPF
dues yep
bible quizing yep
ladies min yep
F Missions yep
Gen Conf Summit
Etc. yep

So how can one be a part of both? The other would suffer. Different directions or focus! Just too confusing!

I agree. The whole clarion call of the WPF was "Mapping a Preferred Direction..." "Preferred" means different. If the WPFer's are out, it's because they have chosen to leave.

The fact that they dallied about and fed out so much disinformation shows that they've been trying to manipulate the General Board into acting all along - if indeed the GB has even acted yet.

The fact that the GB hasn't acted is probably a huge disappointment for many of them.

[pelathais]

Being missing you, bro! Good to see you.
You too, Chris. I was sorry to hear about the passing of your grandfather. He was a great man.

[Ferd]

my own speculation here but I think there may be some on the board who view what happened with PSR (is that the right name?) as a failure.

that group in California drove devisiveness within the UPCI and allowing it to continue within the UPCI was a mistake.

WWPF is exactly the same on a national level. the best it could do within the UPCI is rip the thing apart from within.

better to have seperation, and a willingness to move forward wishing everyone the best.

[TrmptPraise]

You too, Chris. I was sorry to hear about the passing of your grandfather. He was a great man.


Thanks...he will be missed by many.

[tv1a]

wpf is the final step of segration for legalistic minded individuals.

Who has been erecting the walls that separate us? Who has denied fellowship to whom? Is this the pot not calling the kettle black? Many WPF'rs have not changed. The had erected walls between them and others in the UPCI already. They had already formed their own fellowship groups, youth camps, and the like.

To now accuse the UPCI of erecting walls of separation between us is ludicrous. Actually, this move was probably the anticipated response the WPF leadership expected from the UPCI. Then they can highlight their stance of "we are not causing division, they are." Of course this kind of logic begs the question of who left whom?

[pelathais]

wpf is the final step of segration for legalistic minded individuals.
While I'm certain that I would not fit in with the WPF crowd, I'd have to say that there are more extreme elements representing division and legalism.

And that may be the ultimate failing of the WPF - they haven't really appeared to have convinced their core constituency of "holier than thou's" to get on board. My impression is that those who think the UPC "will split hell wide open" with it's compromise, may see the same "compromise" in the WPF.

But the WPF has been playing a careful game so far. They may have a strategy to become more extreme once a final break with the UPC is achieved. It's just that their strategy depends upon the UPC making the next move. Nothing happens until the GB "kicks them out." They desperately want to be able to tell each other that "they took the high road" and became martyrs.

On an historical note, in the medieval church a person was never declared to be a "martyr" if they had engineered their own death. These guys will have a hard job selling their martyrdom to anyone outside of their clique.

For some reason everyone seems to want to reenact 1916 over and over again. "We got kicked out...!"

[TrmptPraise]

While I'm certain that I would not fit in with the WPF crowd, I'd have to say that there are more extreme elements representing division and legalism.

And that may be the ultimate failing of the WPF - they haven't really appeared to have convinced their core constituency of "holier than thou's" to get on board. My impression is that those who think the UPC "will split hell wide open" with it's compromise, may see the same "compromise" in the WPF.

But the WPF has been playing a careful game so far. They may have a strategy to become more extreme once a final break with the UPC is achieved. It's just that their strategy depends upon the UPC making the next move. Nothing happens until the GB "kicks them out." They desperately want to be able to tell each other that "they took the high road" and became martyrs.

On an historical note, in the medieval church a person was never declared to be a "martyr" if they had engineered their own death. These guys will have a hard job selling their martyrdom to anyone outside of their clique.

For some reason everyone seems to want to reenact 1916 over and over again. "We got kicked out...!"

Should fill you in pelathais. The GB voted on this Monday and it passed.

[tv1a]

If that is the case, the creation of wpf is even less honorable. There is no reason for the wpf existence other than egos and self centered interests. No one showed them the door. The extreme element is running the wpf.

While I'm certain that I would not fit in with the WPF crowd, I'd have to say that there are more extreme elements representing division and legalism.

And that may be the ultimate failing of the WPF - they haven't really appeared to have convinced their core constituency of "holier than thou's" to get on board. My impression is that those whole think the UPC "will split hell wide open" with it's compromise, may see the same "compromise" in the WPF.

[pelathais]

If that is the case, the creation of wpf is even less honorable. There is no reason for the wpf existence other than egos and self centered interests. No one showed them the door. The extreme element is running the wpf.
I think it's really more complex than that- or we differ about what makes up "the extreme element."

For me, "the extreme element" could be characterized as the leaders of the 1992 AS drive as well as those who would fall generally under the AMC banner; though I confess this is a bit of broad brushing- but "that crowd."

It has been this crowd that so far has stood somewhat aloof from the WPF. If they are to survive, the WPF will have to win these guys over. And that means that they will have to become even more "extreme" while simultaneously "showing the right spirit."

I think that the GB should have just left this one alone for a bit longer, but they did the predictable UPC thing which is to vote on an "official position" for every hiccup and bump in the road.

[pelathais]

Should fill you in pelathais. The GB voted on this Monday and it passed.
Thanks. Now another group of boys get to play "It's 1916 All Over Again..."

[SDG]

While I'm certain that I would not fit in with the WPF crowd, I'd have to say that there are more extreme elements representing division and legalism.

And that may be the ultimate failing of the WPF - they haven't really appeared to have convinced their core constituency of "holier than thou's" to get on board. My impression is that those who think the UPC "will split hell wide open" with it's compromise, may see the same "compromise" in the WPF.

But the WPF has been playing a careful game so far. They may have a strategy to become more extreme once a final break with the UPC is achieved. It's just that their strategy depends upon the UPC making the next move. Nothing happens until the GB "kicks them out." They desperately want to be able to tell each other that "they took the high road" and became martyrs.

On an historical note, in the medieval church a person was never declared to be a "martyr" if they had engineered their own death. These guys will have a hard job selling their martyrdom to anyone outside of their clique.

For some reason everyone seems to want to reenact 1916 over and over again. "We got kicked out...!"

Yepper. Definitely not a divine set-up.

[Apocrypha]

Yepper. Definitely not a divine set-up.

I got in trouble on another preachers forum when I made the observation that the best way to strangle the WWPF in its cradle would be for the upci leadership to shrug and then simply label the WWPF a Conservative Caucas in the UPCI and blur its distinctiveness and let them overplay their hand and have those on the fence turn away from the allure of a smaller org that they can more easily earn position in... few people want to give up fellowship just to be "someone" in a smaller org.

[SDG]

I got in trouble on another preachers forum when I made the observation that the best way to strangle the WWPF in its cradle would be for the upci leadership to shrug and then simply label the WWPF a Conservative Caucas in the UPCI and blur its distinctiveness and let them overplay their hand and have those on the fence turn away from the allure of a smaller org that they can more easily earn position in... few people want to give up fellowship just to be "someone" in a smaller org.

They got played IMO. It's checkmate ... it's comparable to the spark that ignited WW1 in 1914 ... the assassination of Archduke Fedinand ... now the system of alliances will force everyone to choose sides. The domino effect ... will commence shortly.

[Jehoram]

I respect Brother James Griffin immensely, but I still believe the NCO could be defined as an organization.

[SDG]

I respect Brother James Griffin immensely, but I still believe the NCO could be defined as an organization.

Technically, apples and oranges can be defined as fruit.

:gaga

[freeatlast]

Intawesting.....varrrry intawesting.

[Jehoram]

Annnnnnd, anyone believing this new "edict" will not be challenged is living in fantasy land.

And I do mean legally.

[Apocrypha]

considering i have done the yearly mailing list for the AWCF for the past 3 years and just spoke to Bishops Smiths son on the phone for a hour two nights ago about things going on in the fellowship ((former IBC roomie) I think alot of folks misunderstand what the AWCF is and i can address it since most of the AWCF coordinators don't come on forums to define what it is. It is simply a networking group to build bridges, its not a denomination, while it can and sometimes does issue cards, its fairly rare and usually only as a service for the independents who just want something to call their own.

Its major purpose is to have leaders and ministers of various fellowships come together. If you go to a AWCF event you will see Apostolic Assemblies, UPCI, PAW, ALJC, you name it simply developing relationships, having business card swaps, and meeting each other.

When folks say this or that about us allowing this person or that person in due to doctrinal differences... please understand that its purpose is to bring folks together. Thats why you can have Brother Tek (who has some legit gripes about the UPC Foreign Missions Division also) and Kenneth Philips sitting on the same stage along with a PAW bishop and others like the Shatrovs (who survived massive persecution under the Soviets and would have gladly joined the UPC but for some disagreements with NAU on who was the boss and whether hundreds of active churches was already a national work).

So don't compare apples to oranges (to use a popular term).. the AWCF isn't looking to swipe anyone nor do they visit missions fields to feel out who wants to join a fun new group or anything like that. Even the UPC brothers are encouraged to stay in the UPC just like the PAW, Apostolic Assemblies, ALJC, etc etc etc are.... its literally just a "chamber of commerce" for Apostolics, if thats the right illustration.

[Jehoram]

considering i do the yearly mailing list for the AWCF and just spoke to Bishops Smiths son on the phone for a hour two nights ago (former IBC roomie) I think alot of folks misunderstand what the AWCF is. It is simply a networking group, its not a affiliation, while it can and sometimes does issue cards, its fairly rare and usually only for the independents who just want something to call their own. Its major purpose is to have leaders and ministers of various fellowships come together. If you go to a AWCF event you will see Apostolic Assemblies men, UPCI, PAW, ALJC, you name it simply developing relationships, having business card swaps, and meeting each other.

When folks say this or that about us allowing this person or that person in due to doctrinal differences... please understand that its purpose is to bring folks together. Thats why you can have Brother Tek (who has some legit gripes about the UPC Foreign Missions Division also) and Kenneth Philips sitting on the same stage along with a PAW bishop and others like the Shatrovs (who survived massive persecution under the Soviets and would have gladly joined the UPC but for heavy handed FMD stuff).

So don't compare apples to oranges (to use a popular term).. the AWCF isn't looking to swipe anyone nor do they visit missions fields to feel out who wants to join a fun new group or anything like that. Even the UPC brothers are encouraged to stay in the UPC just like the PAW, Apostolic Assemblies, ALJC, etc etc etc are.... its literally just a "chamber of commerce" for Apostolics, if thats the right illustration.

Pardon my ignorance.

But I thought that was why people chose to join the UPC.

I mean for fellowship.

Is that fellowship no longer good enough for some reason?

[Jehoram]

If the board hadn't taken action we could have eventually had a two party political system complete with separate organizational bylaws and party platforms.

NCO (or some other group) equals libs.
WPF equals cons.

[Apocrypha]

Pardon my ignorance.

But I thought that was why people chose to join the UPC.

I mean for fellowship.

Is that fellowship no longer good enough for some reason?


Depends, alot of UPC brothers enjoy meeting fellow ministers, pastors and evangelists from other fellowships. Also it has built strong bridges between foreign local churches and US churches that support it directly. A good example would be one of my relatives who met a bishop from Cameroon, and he went out and taught over 200 of their pastors doctrine and leadership skills, this year he was unable to make it so he sent a UPCI elder pastor and it was a great time for all. My uncle did the same this year for another national church in Malaysia. Half the fun is meeting all of the various overseas leaders who come in like Bro. Wyle Almeda, etc etc.

In San Diego recently they hosted a inter-apostolic meet and greet at Bro. Saragosa's church in National City that was put together by one of our coordinators Efraim Valverde, it was a good mix of PAW, AA, UPCI and others.

[Sam]

...
In San Diego recently they hosted a inter-apostolic meet and greet at Bro. Saragosa's church in National City that was put together by one of our coordinators Efraim Valverde, it was a good mix of PAW, AA, UPCI and others.

Sounds great.
Apostolic Pentecostals from different organizations fellowshipping around the name of Jesus and willing to overlook minor doctrinal differences. Really in the spirit of Ephesians 4:1-7 and John 17:11, 20-21 in my opinion.

[Apocrypha]

Sounds great.
Apostolic Pentecostals from different organizations fellowshipping around the name of Jesus and willing to overlook minor doctrinal differences. Really in the spirit of Ephesians 4:1-7 and John 17:11, 20-21 in my opinion.

Yup, its a great thing.

www.awcf.org

[SDG]

I believe you have the NCO confused with the AWCF (not a slam I have GREAT respect for Bishop Smith and the AWCF!!)

Could you please name a single NCO member who espouses ANY of doctrines you listed??? Come on just ONE?????

It's more theatrics ...

[SDG]

Annnnnnd, anyone believing this new "edict" will not be challenged is living in fantasy land.

And I do mean legally.

Will there be a lawsuit??? ... that could be really ugly. They'd lose ...but it would drag all thru the mud.

[SDG]

If the board hadn't taken action we could have eventually had a two party political system complete with separate organizational bylaws and party platforms.

NCO (or some other group) equals libs.
WPF equals cons.

Did this action also qualify the NCO as an org ... or was this a unilateral action against WPF.

[stmatthew]

So has this been confirmed now??

[SDG]

So has this been confirmed now??

Oh yeah ... big time ...

[SDG]

Pardon my ignorance.

But I thought that was why people chose to join the UPC.

I mean for fellowship.

Is that fellowship no longer good enough for some reason?

They join for "exclusive" fellowship, Brother Ego?????

[James Griffin]

I respect Brother James Griffin immensely, but I still believe the NCO could be defined as an organization.


The local children’s chess club that meets on Friday nights near my church is also an organization. Furthermore (unlike the NCO) it is has dues, officers, bylaws and regular meetings. (And stands about as much chance as the NCO of being involved in UPCI politics.)


If the board hadn't taken action we could have eventually had a two party political system complete with separate organizational bylaws and party platforms.

NCO (or some other group) equals libs.
WPF equals cons.

WWPF has a bible school, magazine, missions plan, departments, a headquarters office space, dues, benefits, bible quizzing, youth camps, and alternative meetings to the UPCI.


The NCO does not have dues, Bible School, magazine, missions plan, HQ space, benefits (like insurance), Bible quizzing, youth camps, or alternative meetings.

Furthermore it does not have ANY layers of organizational hierarchy, nor even written Articles of Faith.

It does not even have 501 (c) (3) status.

It is a fellowship, primarily web based dedicated to sharing ideas and means to propagate the gospel. Nothing more nothing less.

Legally speaking comparing it to an organization such as WWPF is a total non sequitur!!!

So not only does the NCO not have the vehicle nor the platform for such a scheme, even a most cursory reading of its articles would show it to have a decidedly non-organizational agenda. Its paradigm is relational (i.e. father-son) as opposed to organizational.

As far as "some other liberal organization" forming within the UPCI, the “I” in UPCI stands for incorporated. A formal bi-party form of government simply cannot function in its corporate bylaws. So a two party system within the UPCI just ain't happening. So by default UPCI represented by the majority electoral vote of its rank and file period. (Curiously enough the leadership of the WWPF seems to be self-coronated er appointed) Unlike the AWCF et al, the UPCI is simply not structured or equipped to handle independent organizations within its organization.

BTW AE, you’re fun. Keep thinking outside the box, you’ll come up with a winner yet.

[Jehoram]

The local children’s chess club that meets on Friday nights near my church is also an organization. Furthermore (unlike the NCO) it is has dues, officers, bylaws and regular meetings. (And stands about as much chance as the NCO of being involved in UPCI politics.)




WWPF has a bible school, magazine, missions plan, departments, a headquarters office space, dues, benefits, bible quizzing, youth camps, and alternative meetings to the UPCI.


The NCO does not have dues, Bible School, magazine, missions plan, HQ space, benefits (like insurance), Bible quizzing, youth camps, or alternative meetings.

Furthermore it does not have ANY layers of organizational hierarchy, nor even written Articles of Faith.

It does not even have 501 (c) (3) status.

It is a fellowship, primarily web based dedicated to sharing ideas and means to propagate the gospel. Nothing more nothing less.

Legally speaking comparing it to an organization such as WWPF is a total non sequitur!!!

So not only does the NCO not have the vehicle nor the platform for such a scheme, even a most cursory reading of its articles would show it to have a decidedly non-organizational agenda. Its paradigm is relational (i.e. father-son) as opposed to organizational.

As far as "some other liberal organization" forming within the UPCI, the “I” in UPCI stands for incorporated. A formal bi-party form of government simply cannot function in its corporate bylaws. So a two party system within the UPCI just ain't happening. So by default UPCI represented by the majority electoral vote of its rank and file period. (Curiously enough the leadership of the WWPF seems to be self-coronated er appointed) Unlike the AWCF et al, the UPCI is simply not structured or equipped to handle independent organizations within its organization.

BTW AE, you’re fun. Keep thinking outside the box, you’ll come up with a winner yet.

I love you man!
:party

[Jehoram]

And your great legal insight notwithstanding, I still think there will be a legal challenge to this ruling.

[SDG]

And your great legal insight notwithstanding, I still think there will be a legal challenge to this ruling.

He simply demonstrated that using the NCO as an example would fall flat on it's face ... Although Grif ... I believe state in anothr that the AWCF would probably be a better comparison.

[James Griffin]

And your great legal insight notwithstanding, I still think there will be a legal challenge to this ruling.

LOL when did I say there would not be?????

Furthermore, legally speaking both sides have very valid arguments.

[Jehoram]

LOL when did I say there would not be?????

Furthermore, legally speaking both sides have very valid arguments.

What are you man?

A NCO apologist or something?

It's like you have some sort of investment with them.:gaga

Hmm

[WyoPastor]

The WPF's own Bylaws calls itself an organization when it says in the qualifications of the Chairman:
c) The Executive Chairman of Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship may not be a member of any other religious organization except WPF.

The key word is 'other'. When they say 'other' they are classifying themselves as an organization, otherwise the word 'other' would not be necessary. They could just say 'a member of any religious organization.'

[SDG]

The WPF's own Bylaws calls itself an organization when it says in the qualifications of the Chairman:
c) The Executive Chairman of Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship may not be a member of any other religious organization except WPF.

The key word is 'other'. When they say 'other' they are classifying themselves as an organization, otherwise the word 'other' would not be necessary. They could just say 'a member of any religious organization.'

Oh boy ... methinks that does nail it down .... For months I've heard the WPF was not an organization .... the UPCI case just strengthened a bit.

[mizpeh]

What are you man?

A NCO apologist or something?

It's like you have some sort of investment with them.:gaga

Hmm

Have you checked out the NCO site?

[TrmptPraise]

Oh boy ... methinks that does nail it down .... For months I've heard the WPF was not an organization .... the UPCI case just strengthened a bit.


Dan, are you telling me with all your research, that is the first time you saw that?

[SDG]

Dan, are you telling me with all your research, that is the first time you saw that?

Yep. Missed it ... I'm human, sometimes.

[TrmptPraise]

Yep. Missed it ... I'm human, sometimes.


Pardon me a minute...I must make a notation of the date and time.:bliss

[Ferd]

DA dude, you just got SCOOPED!!!!!!

[SDG]

DA dude, you just got SCOOPED!!!!!!

I gotta let the little people have a crack at it too, Ferdy. :friend

[Ferd]

I gotta let the little people have a crack at it too, Ferdy. :friend

LOL!

[Praxeas]

Yep. Missed it ... I'm human, sometimes.
Uh...I don't know if anyone asked this, but what are you the rest of the time? :ursofunny

[Apocrypha]

The local children’s chess club that meets on Friday nights near my church is also an organization. Furthermore (unlike the NCO) it is has dues, officers, bylaws and regular meetings. (And stands about as much chance as the NCO of being involved in UPCI politics.)




WWPF has a bible school, magazine, missions plan, departments, a headquarters office space, dues, benefits, bible quizzing, youth camps, and alternative meetings to the UPCI.


The NCO does not have dues, Bible School, magazine, missions plan, HQ space, benefits (like insurance), Bible quizzing, youth camps, or alternative meetings.

Furthermore it does not have ANY layers of organizational hierarchy, nor even written Articles of Faith.

It does not even have 501 (c) (3) status.

It is a fellowship, primarily web based dedicated to sharing ideas and means to propagate the gospel. Nothing more nothing less.

Legally speaking comparing it to an organization such as WWPF is a total non sequitur!!!

So not only does the NCO not have the vehicle nor the platform for such a scheme, even a most cursory reading of its articles would show it to have a decidedly non-organizational agenda. Its paradigm is relational (i.e. father-son) as opposed to organizational.

As far as "some other liberal organization" forming within the UPCI, the “I” in UPCI stands for incorporated. A formal bi-party form of government simply cannot function in its corporate bylaws. So a two party system within the UPCI just ain't happening. So by default UPCI represented by the majority electoral vote of its rank and file period. (Curiously enough the leadership of the WWPF seems to be self-coronated er appointed) Unlike the AWCF et al, the UPCI is simply not structured or equipped to handle independent organizations within its organization.

BTW AE, you’re fun. Keep thinking outside the box, you’ll come up with a winner yet.

One of the staff ministers in charge of outreach David Grigsby at Church of Champions and I are scheduled next Thursday to have dinner where we are going to swap ideas about outreach and retention. He is a great guy, referred me to a lighting/video contractor to help us in our upgrade. We talked about the NCO for a minute and he basically snorted and laughed when i flat out asked him if the NCO was a fellowship. He strongly denied it and said it was a networking group to connect pastors, nothing more. The NCO is a threat to no one, at this point its similar to the AWCF in that its primary mission is to bring apostolics together no matter the fellowship credentials. In fact the AWCF and NCO are partnering in events like the Outreach convention here in houston. It makes sense to have the networking groups network with each other? :)

[pelathais]

And your great legal insight notwithstanding, I still think there will be a legal challenge to this ruling.
One of the beautiful things about America is that anyone who feels that they have suffered a wrong can appeal to the courts for redress. One of the downsides of this is that you can also make yourself appear extremely foolish.

The WWPF has way too much spin control to do over the course of the next year to worry about frivolous lawsuits.

[James Griffin]

One of the beautiful things about America is that anyone who feels that they have suffered a wrong can appeal to the courts for redress. One of the downsides of this is that you can also make yourself appear extremely foolish.

The WWPF has way too much spin control to do over the course of the next year to worry about frivolous lawsuits.

Pel I can see the possibility of a lawsuit, but it won't be over the evils of using TV to save the lost, it will be over real estate.

:-)

[James Griffin]

One of the staff ministers in charge of outreach David Grigsby at Church of Champions and I are scheduled next Thursday to have dinner where we are going to swap ideas about outreach and retention. He is a great guy, referred me to a lighting/video contractor to help us in our upgrade. We talked about the NCO for a minute and he basically snorted and laughed when i flat out asked him if the NCO was a fellowship. He strongly denied it and said it was a networking group to connect pastors, nothing more. The NCO is a threat to no one, at this point its similar to the AWCF in that its primary mission is to bring apostolics together no matter the fellowship credentials. In fact the AWCF and NCO are partnering in events like the Outreach convention here in houston. It makes sense to have the networking groups network with each other? :)

Erik good to have an AWCF voice here. I have been privileged to speak with Bishop Smith a few times over the past couple years, and was even honored by having an article posted on AWCF website.

If I don't see you sooner, see you at Bridge 2008. There are some "suprises" planned that will blow you away!

:-)

[pelathais]

Pel I can see the possibility of a lawsuit, but it won't be over the evils of using TV to save the lost, it will be over real estate.

:-)
Most of the WWPF churches have already unaffiliated themselves, haven't they? An unaffiliated church doesn't really have any property entanglements with the org.

If there are Christmas For Christ churches who received UPCI funds and there was some sort of contractual stipulation then those guys just need to step up to the plate and show us all that this is really about "principles" and not some sort of grab for position.

If a pastor feels led by God or by his own deep convictions to join the WPF then he needs to resign his church if it has any sort financial agreement with the UPC.

What sort of scenarios do you see that would be litigated?

[WyoPastor]

Here's the resolution

General Board Ruling

February 26, 2008

Whereas there may be religious organizations or associations or fellowships formed that do not use the word ‘license’ or ‘ordination,’ yet for all intents and purposes have the same, or similar, function as those organizations who do use the word ‘license’ or ‘ordination,’ including the United Pentecostal Church International; and in keeping with the spirit and intent of the UPCI Manual; the General Board hereby offers this interpretation of Article VII, Section 2, paragraph 6:

Any religious organization or association that offers the same or similar benefits of the UPCI, requires payment of dues, and subscribing to a set of Articles of Faith in order to be a member, shall be interpreted as satisfying the description ‘to hold license or ordination with’ in Article VII, Section 2, paragraph 6, even though those specific words may not be used by said organization or association.

The Board finds that the WPF is such an organization for the purposes of Article VII Section 2 paragraph 6. It is the ruling of the Board that in the spirit and intent of that paragraph, it is therefore not proper for a minister to hold membership in both the UPCI and the WPF. The Board reiterates that the implementation of this ruling is, as always, in the hands of the District Boards to determine the timing and other aspects of that implementation.

[SDG]

Here's the resolution

General Board Ruling

February 26, 2008

Whereas there may be religious organizations or associations or fellowships formed that do not use the word ‘license’ or ‘ordination,’ yet for all intents and purposes have the same, or similar, function as those organizations who do use the word ‘license’ or ‘ordination,’ including the United Pentecostal Church International; and in keeping with the spirit and intent of the UPCI Manual; the General Board hereby offers this interpretation of Article VII, Section 2, paragraph 6:

Any religious organization or association that offers the same or similar benefits of the UPCI, requires payment of dues, and subscribing to a set of Articles of Faith in order to be a member, shall be interpreted as satisfying the description ‘to hold license or ordination with’ in Article VII, Section 2, paragraph 6, even though those specific words may not be used by said organization or association.

The Board finds that the WPF is such an organization for the purposes of Article VII Section 2 paragraph 6. It is the ruling of the Board that in the spirit and intent of that paragraph, it is therefore not proper for a minister to hold membership in both the UPCI and the WPF. The Board reiterates that the implementation of this ruling is, as always, in the hands of the District Boards to determine the timing and other aspects of that implementation.

Thanx for sharing this.

[SDG]

Under this resolution's qualification of what an org is ... a serious case can be made that the AWCF is an org.

[SDG]

The Board reiterates that the implementation of this ruling is, as always, in the hands of the District Boards to determine the timing and other aspects of that implementation.

Will the Western District take the lead?

[ChicagoPastor]

I think you're right Dan, about the AWCF...

THe NCO on the other hand, has NO departments, no membership dues, no articles of faith, SO.........they're ok! :)

[SDG]

I heard the UPC's long trusted legal team scrutinized over the WPF's Articles of Faith.

Under their advice and interpretaton of the UPC's manual ... the WPF is an org and that the UPC had every right to ask it's ministers to choose sides.

They gave a seven point argument why the formation and it's ongoing operations is in direct violation to the UPC bylaws in the manual.

They argued that the paragraph in the manual about licences is a mere technicality ... and that if anyone were to choose to take the UPC to court over this .... the believed the courts would throw the case out because the org's General Board has the right to interpret it's own manual, not an outside jurisdiction.

[bishoph]

One small technicality, it is my understanding (according to the manual) that the GB has every right to bring a resolution, however, the resolution has no binding power until the constituency has voted to approve said resolution. It is important to note however, that the UPCI has a history of enacting these types of resolutions without due process, and if unchallenged of course it will stand.

[SDG]

One small technicality, it is my understanding (according to the manual) that the GB has every right to bring a resolution, however, the resolution has no binding power until the constituency has voted to approve said resolution. It is important to note however, that the UPCI has a history of enacting these types of resolutions without due process, and if unchallenged of course it will stand.

Whether it's done now or when it's appoved in October, BishopH ... what's the difference??? .... this thing would pass easily.

The fact is the line now is drawn, period.

[James Griffin]

Under this resolution's qualification of what an org is ... a serious case can be made that the AWCF is an org.

(THE FOLLOWING IS A PARTIAL RESPONSE MADE IN ANOTHER THREAD)


The AWCF is inclusionary by its nature and includes over 180 affiliate organizations under its umbrella.

The WPF by contrast is exclusionary by nature and a major catalyst to its formation in present form was the passage of Res 4 by the UPCI in Tampa. Most importantly it was intended from its inception to provide an alternative to the UPCI, to deny that now would be somewhat disingenuous by the leadership.

However, ... I personally believe the WPF men to be men of integrity and would not presume to impinge their motives.

Which brings us back to the original premise of the thread; organizational consistency.

Ignoring the foundational intent of the various organizations, and looking at the matter dispassionately, Bishoph has a valid point: AWCF does also have HQ, organizational hierarchy, an official magazine, missions board, Bible Quizzing, Articles of Faith, are involved in licensing, regularly hold meetings and conferences etc. IF the UPCI were to enforce dual membership ban against the WPF and not the AWCF it would indeed be hard to justify.

[James Griffin]

Most of the WWPF churches have already unaffiliated themselves, haven't they? An unaffiliated church doesn't really have any property entanglements with the org.

If there are Christmas For Christ churches who received UPCI funds and there was some sort of contractual stipulation then those guys just need to step up to the plate and show us all that this is really about "principles" and not some sort of grab for position.

If a pastor feels led by God or by his own deep convictions to join the WPF then he needs to resign his church if it has any sort financial agreement with the UPC.

What sort of scenarios do you see that would be litigated?

You have already listed a couple of the most likely. "Need to" being the operative word. If a UPCI district were to "enforce" the resolution of exclusion it is not unforeseeable in this day and age it could end up in litigation.

There would, in my opinion, most likely be grounds for the "excluded" party to defeat a motion for summary judgment. (This in no way infers an ultimately successful lawsuit). So why file?

Besides the inherit need to fight back when one feels bullied (especially in America) some could perceive it to be a win-win situation. If the UPCI through some fluke should lose, man what a body blow! If the WPF pastor loses then there will finally be 1916 style justification "we was forced out against our will, see we told you so".

To date I would mostly agree with your stance, it is the WPF that is walking away. A picture of some poor pastor being forcibly evicted from "his" property (no matter how legally, ethically, or morally correct the action) would go a LONG way in the propaganda war.

[bishoph]

I agree the line is drawn, and many will make their decision. I think the next big hurdle will be whether the men who choose to go with the WPF will be put "under question." IMO that will also determine how many leave the UPCI. Because of the real or perceived stature of the WPF leadership, putting them "under question" will appear adversarial on the part of the UPCI and will cause some to leave that would have otherwise not even considered it.

Some districts, prior to the GB decision, had already started sending out letters to others effectively banning ex-UPCI ministers from ministering not just district events but local church events as well. I think that is a travesty. That kind of action is old strong arm mafia style leadership IMO. In essence what that says is, if you leave the UPCI because you choose to fellowship in another fellowship/organization you have to break all relationships built over the years, and cease from fellowshipping with those that are your close friends and possibly relatives. IMO that is just wrong. It was wrong when they did it with the AMF, it was wrong when they did it with the men who left in 92 and it is wrong today IMHO.

[Jehoram]

Well, it's been an interesting conversation folks.

Do we have it all figured out just yet?

[A_PoMo]

Came across this today while reading and thought of this whole split and the reasons why it was inevitable,

"...there is scarcely an error in doctrine or a failure in applying Christian ethics that cannot be traced finally to imperfect and ignoble thoughts about God." A.W. Tozer, in "Knowledge of the Holy".

It is my belief that everything going down right now is only the symptoms of more systemic issues.

[MissBrattified]

That's a great quote, A_PoMo. I love the ones in your signature, too.

Random: If you have an iGoogle home page, you can put in an A.W. Tozer devotional gadget.

Here's the devotional from today:

" That Amazing Grace!
The human heart is heretical by nature. Popular religious beliefs should be checked carefully against the Word of God, for they are almost certain to be wrong. Legalism, for instance, is natural to the human heart. Grace in its true New Testament meaning is foreign to human reason, not because it is contrary to reason but because it lies beyond it. The doctrine of grace had to be revealed; it could not have been discovered. The essence of legalism is self-atonement. The seeker tries to make himself acceptable to God by some act of restitution, or by self-punishment or the feeling of regret. The desire to be pleasing to God is commendable certainly, but the effort to please God by self-effort is not, for it assumes that sin once done may be undone, an assumption wholly false.

Prayer
O Christ, I could never atone for my sins. You have done it. I receive the forgiveness You give. I glory in Your grace.

Scripture
Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.
— Psalm 32:1-2

Thought
O the blessedness of sins forgiven, knowing that God no longer counts them against us. The amazing grace of God!"

[pelathais]

Came across this today while reading and thought of this whole split and the reasons why it was inevitable,

"...there is scarcely an error in doctrine or a failure in applying Christian ethics that cannot be traced finally to imperfect and ignoble thoughts about God." A.W. Tozer, in "Knowledge of the Holy".

It is my belief that everything going down right now is only the symptoms of more systemic issues.
Deep thoughts. Great post!