The loss of a General Board Member

[NLYP]

I Just received this email......


I first emailed the GB member and asked this question...

On Feb 27, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Daniel Christensen wrote:

> Hello
> Hope all is well....
> Its all over the web.....the General Boards Meeting...
> Can you clarify?
> What exactly happened....
> WAY too many assumptions are being made.....
>
>
> Bro Dan
>

The response...

------------

To: Daniel Christensen <revdac777@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:55:38 PM
Subject: Re: HEY!

Hi Dan, yes the Board did vote that you couldn't belong to two org. One thing I thought interesting was, Johnny King turned in his license, and said to the board that he could not go the way the org. was going, He couldn't be in an org. that wouldn't uphold the beliefs that are in the manual. so he resigned publicly there at a board meeting.


-----------------
Dont ask......I posted all that needs to be known.

[SDG]

It begins.

[Ferd]

It begins.

DA, dude you just got scooped!

as i understand it, this was done either IN the GB meeting, or directly after in the presence of many of the GB members.

wow!

[SDG]

DA, dude you just got scooped!

as i understand it, this was done either IN the GB meeting, or directly after in the presence of many of the GB members.

wow!

This does not get better from here, Ferd. It's those innocents caught in the cross hairs that will and are going to suffer the most ....

[NLYP]

I scooped DA....wow...surely the rapture is upon us....

[NLYP]

DA, dude you just got scooped!

as i understand it, this was done either IN the GB meeting, or directly after in the presence of many of the GB members.

wow!

This was done IN the GB meeting.

[ManOfWord]

I guess all the WPF'ers will start packing their "chutes!" :D

[NLYP]

I guess all the WPF'ers will start packing their "chutes!" :D

Oh please....allow me to pack for them.......

[NLYP]

This does not get better from here, Ferd. It's those caught in the cross hairs that will and are going to suffer the most ....

not a bad opinion form the bleechers....
It was IN FACT the right move for the UPCI.

[SDG]

Oh please....allow me to pack for them.......hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANYBODY GOT A BAG OF QUICK CRETE AROUND HERE!:bliss

How insensitive Daniel.

[NLYP]

How insensitive Daniel.

I learned from my time with syna**Edited by Admin**....


:tissue

[Ferd]

This does not get better from here, Ferd. It's those caught in the cross hairs that will and are going to suffer the most ....

DA, honestly I do not agree.

suffering from this WWPF thing if suffering it will be, will in fact be self inflicted.

if one swallows the barrel of a shotgun, they should not complain about the back of their own head being blown off.

[scotty]

Did we think it wouldn't be this way? I mean really?

It is sad, I hate to see them go all in the name of conservatism. The org is shifting away from an all exclusive belief. Its about time, I remember when we kept to ourselves because everyone else was sin to be around. Now the UPC is changing to a more social org. Its ok to talk to the lost. There is no change in the plan of salvation, just how we present it to the world.

Sure, many will go, but how many will stay??

[Ferd]

I learned from my time with syna....

:tissue

speaking of which, i am unable to reach the site from work. it is blocked.

[jrLA]

I learned from my time with syna..........


:tissue



Very good!!! :gaga

[jrLA]

DA, honestly I do not agree.

suffering from this WWPF thing if suffering it will be, will in fact be self inflicted.

if one swallows the barrel of a shotgun, they should not complain about the back of their own head being blown off.

Bro. Ferd....you have a way with words.....I bow!:yourock:bow

[Praxeas]

Did we think it wouldn't be this way? I mean really?

It is sad, I hate to see them go all in the name of conservatism. The org is shifting away from an all exclusive belief. Its about time, I remember when we kept to ourselves because everyone else was sin to be around. Now the UPC is changing to a more social org. Its ok to talk to the lost. There is no change in the plan of salvation, just how we present it to the world.

Sure, many will go, but how many will stay??
The funny thing is....now...right NOW...the UPC would STILL be considered by most outsiders to be a conservative group.

[Whole Hearted]

Oh please....allow me to pack for them.......hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANYBODY GOT A BAG OF QUICK CRETE AROUND HERE!:bliss

What a sweet Christian spirit.

[jrLA]

What a sweet Christian spirit.

WH, no offense my brother....you have exhibited a similar 'sweet spirit' a time or two! lol:friend

[Ron]

Bro Johnny King was the DS of the Alberta District & I am not surprised he did this.
He is an ultra-con.

I picked him up at the airport for Elder Reynolds funeral 6 years ago.
A nice guy but an Ultra-con to the core.

I wish him well.

[Admin]

Oh please....allow me to pack for them.......hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANYBODY GOT A BAG OF QUICK CRETE AROUND HERE!:bliss

How insensitive Daniel.

I learned from my time with syna*******....


:tissue
Guys don't let this get out of hand. NLYP that was not good. Please edit that out.

[Whole Hearted]

WH, no offense my brother....you have exhibited a similar 'sweet spirit' a time or two! lol:friend

I've never said anything like that, Thank you.

[scotty]

The funny thing is....now...right NOW...the UPC would STILL be considered by most outsiders to be a conservative group.

As we should be, I don't agree with most UCers, but I would disagree just as much with the liberals.

[NLYP]

What a sweet Christian spirit.

Lighten up *****.....Just funnin

[SDG]

not a bad opinion form the bleechers....
It was IN FACT the right move for the UPCI.

I remember writing this to my DS in my letter of resignation in the fall of '06 ...

"I, also, have come to the realization that neither side will be placated after Resolution 6 passes next year. I feel most for those caught in the middle."

[NLYP]

I've never said anything like that, Thank you.

You are right...youve sent folks to helll.......there is definitely a difference.

[NLYP]

Guys don't let this get out of hand. NLYP that was not good. Please edit that out.

It was said in fun....I mean no harm! But I will edit......

[TRFrance]

Did we think it wouldn't be this way? I mean really?

It is sad, I hate to see them go all in the name of conservatism. The org is shifting away from an all exclusive belief. Its about time, I remember when we kept to ourselves because everyone else was sin to be around. Now the UPC is changing to a more social org. Its ok to talk to the lost. There is no change in the plan of salvation, just how we present it to the world.

Sure, many will go, but how many will stay??

I liken it to the process of childbirth.

Childbirth is a difficult, often painful process, but when the child is born, everyone's happy and smiling afterward.

Similarly, when God is birthing a new thing in the spirit realm, it often will cause upheaval and even division among His body of believers, but when all is said and done, the Kingdom is better off for it.

In the end, this may end up being addition by subtraction, to the glory of God.

[NLYP]

Done!

[deltaguitar]

I don't understand why you guys want these ultracons out so bad. Without their strong hand in the organization you guys will be the new ultracons and will find yourselves fighting to keep the traditions you have grown to love so well.

The UPC can't keep the liberals and it can't keep the ultracons so it is destined to be an org full of mediocre moderates unless it starts to allow the liberals back. The only way this will happen is to finally allow the PCI view to be preached.

Once this happens you can be sure that those that are "weak on your message" will come to power and those who are now moderates will be the new UCs.

The UPC is either going to have change or become completely irrelevant and just throwing the ultracons out is not going to bring the change that you guys are expecting.

[SDG]

I don't understand why you guys want these ultracons out so bad. Without their strong hand in the organization you guys will be the new ultracons and will find yourselves fighting to keep the traditions you have grown to love so well.

The UPC can't keep the liberals and it can't keep the ultracons so it is destined to be an org full of mediocre moderates unless it starts to allow the liberals back. The only way this will happen is to finally allow the PCI view to be preached.

Once this happens you can be sure that those that are "weak on your message" will come to power and those who are now moderates will be the new UCs.

The UPC is either going to have change or become completely irrelevant and just throwing the ultracons out is not going to bring the change that you guys are expecting.

That's classic.

[Ron]

You are right...youve sent folks to helll.......there is definitely a difference.


Is Jesus here?

Last I heard he was the only one with authority to do so!

[Whole Hearted]

You are right...youve sent folks to helll.......there is definitely a difference.

I don't send them to hell their sins do.

[SDG]

I don't send them to hell their sins do.

WH is consistent.

[TRFrance]

The funny thing is....now...right NOW...the UPC would STILL be considered by most outsiders to be a conservative group.

Well, it still is.

Especially compared to the other medium to large sized Apostolic denominations.

If some of the UltraCons in the UPC think the UPCI is slipping, they wouldn't want to hang out around certain other apostolic denominations for long. They'd end up sprinkling holy water on folks and rebuking then in Jesus' name!!

[Ferd]

What a sweet Christian spirit.

Does anyone else see the irony of this post???

[Ferd]

I don't understand why you guys want these ultracons out so bad. Without their strong hand in the organization you guys will be the new ultracons and will find yourselves fighting to keep the traditions you have grown to love so well.

The UPC can't keep the liberals and it can't keep the ultracons so it is destined to be an org full of mediocre moderates unless it starts to allow the liberals back. The only way this will happen is to finally allow the PCI view to be preached.

Once this happens you can be sure that those that are "weak on your message" will come to power and those who are now moderates will be the new UCs.

The UPC is either going to have change or become completely irrelevant and just throwing the ultracons out is not going to bring the change that you guys are expecting.

hmmm.
AM, DB etc may be moderates but I dare say no one would consider them mediocre, nor weak on message.

[TRFrance]

Does anyone else see the irony of this post???

um... not really.

Do I really wanna know?

[Rev Dooley]

While this is a tragic event regardless of the cause, why must so many throw mud here? What good will it do to continue to throw barbs at one another?
I sincerely doubt that it will create any new upsurge of unity.

[freeatlast]

Does anyone else see the irony of this post???

I was trying to keep a good christian spirit about me and keep my mouth shut. :ursofunny

[TRFrance]

While this is a tragic event regardless of the cause, why must so many throw mud here? What good will it do to continue to throw barbs at one another?
I sincerely doubt that it will create any new upsurge of unity.

Aahhh, my dear Rev Dooley. Such innocence (grin).

I sit here, just smiling as I read your post, bro.

I see you have a relatively low number of posts here, so I'm guessing (perhaps incorrectly) that you havent hung around here that long to see just how bad it can get around here.

Expecting it to change is like spitting into the wind. If you didn't know that yet, just hang around. You'll see.

[Admin]

I learned from my time with syna******....


:tissue

Everyone. This sort of thing is not right, even if you are meaning it in fun please just don't do it anyways.

Thanks

[deltaguitar]

hmmm.
AM, DB etc may be moderates but I dare say no one would consider them mediocre, nor weak on message.

They might possibly be the men who end up holding the UPC back. They are both very much "water and spirit" doctrinally and command tons of respect throughout the organization but they are very outspoken against the PCI point of view.

Once AM starts preaching the baptism regeneration message on TV you can expect the attacks to start coming from the Biblical scholars of the world and the "message" will have to be watered down.

I am by no means an UC but I can promise you that they see the writing on the wall. They see that with TV their message will be watered down. The UPC will change and it will be exactly as they predicted. They are only wrong in that they think this is a bad thing.

It will be the best thing that has ever happened to the UPC.

[TRFrance]

They might possibly be the men who end up holding the UPC back. They are both very much "water and spirit" doctrinally and command tons of respect throughout the organization but they are very outspoken against the PCI point of view.

Once AM starts preaching the baptism regeneration message on TV you can expect the attacks to start coming from the Biblical scholars of the world and the "message" will have to be watered down.

I am by no means an UC but I can promise you that they see the writing on the wall. They see that with TV their message will be watered down. The UPC will change and it will be exactly as they predicted. They are only wrong in that they think this is a bad thing.

It will be the best thing that has ever happened to the UPC .

*sigh*
Wishful thinking, if I've ever seen it.

[TrmptPraise]

*sigh*
Wishful thinking, if I've ever seen it.

Agreed

[NLYP]

Does anyone else see the irony of this post???

Oh OH Pick Me Pick Me!!!!!!!!

[Rev Dooley]

Aahhh, my dear Rev Dooley. Such innocence (grin).

I sit here, just smiling as I read your post, bro.

I see you have a relatively low number of posts here, so I'm guessing (perhaps incorrectly) that you havent hung around here that long to see just how bad it can get around here.

Expecting it to change is like spitting into the wind. If you didn't know that yet, just hang around. You'll see.Wow. Do I seem that naive?
Actually, I have been here for some time. I've had to moderate my context since I have a tendency to read too much between the lines at times.
I am disturbed however by the obvious lack of charity that is being demonstrated here. And, it is coming from both sides.
WH and NLYP should try to at least be amicable.
I love you both and know you both personally. But, the attitudes that you both are displaying are not godly in any sense of the word.
Bro WH, I respect you as an elder and entreat you as such. I sincerely believe your desire is genuine, but we all get aggravated when liberals are allowed to throw their tripe out and we cannot get a word in edgewise.
Forgiveness is the key here.
NLYP, while we definitely disagree with one another on a variety of issues, as a fellow minister I would ask that you hold your office a little higher instead of allowing it to be dirtied with the negative remarks. It is very unbecoming on your part and you are very capable of maintaining your cool when under fire.
Again, I love you both. How about shaking hands and forgiving one another so that you can both move forward?
My respect to you both.

[NLYP]

Everyone. This sort of thing is not right, even if you are meaning it in fun please just don't do it anyways.

Thanks

:friend

[The Mrs]

Wow. Do I seem that naive?
Actually, I have been here for some time. I've had to moderate my context since I have a tendency to read too much between the lines at times.
I am disturbed however by the obvious lack of charity that is being demonstrated here. And, it is coming from both sides.
WH and NLYP should try to at least be amicable.
I love you both and know you both personally. But, the attitudes that you both are displaying are not godly in any sense of the word.
Bro WH, I respect you as an elder and entreat you as such. I sincerely believe your desire is genuine, but we all get aggravated when liberals are allowed to throw their tripe out and we cannot get a word in edgewise.
Forgiveness is the key here.
NLYP, while we definitely disagree with one another on a variety of issues, as a fellow minister I would ask that you hold your office a little higher instead of allowing it to be dirtied with the negative remarks. It is very unbecoming on your part and you are very capable of maintaining your cool when under fire.
Again, I love you both. How about shaking hands and forgiving one another so that you can both move forward?
My respect to you both.

WOOT!!! :rooting Check this out...AFF is supposed to be a self-moderated forum, and THIS is a great piece of self-moderation!!!

Kudos to Rev. Dooley!!! :bliss

[Neck]

You have to respect those who go out with a flare...

[The Mrs]

You have to respect those who go out with a flare...

Uuummm...did you mean go out with flair???


:gaga

[deltaguitar]

*sigh*
Wishful thinking, if I've ever seen it.

Ok, if you say so. My point in all of this is that getting rid of the Ultracons is not going to help the UPC unless there is a fundamental change. I see TV being the best way to bring about that change.

[Praxeas]

Ok, if you say so. My point in all of this is that getting rid of the Ultracons is not going to help the UPC unless there is a fundamental change. I see TV being the best way to bring about that change.
The problem with the UCs being in the UPC is that typically UCs don't fellowship anyone that is not a UC...what is the point? What balance do they bring when they are infact a fringe element within the UPC?

[mizpeh]

I liken it to the process of childbirth.

Childbirth is a difficult, often painful process, but when the child is born, everyone's happy and smiling afterward.

Similarly, when God is birthing a new thing in the spirit realm, it often will cause upheaval and even division among His body of believers, but when all is said and done, the Kingdom is better off for it.

In the end, this may end up being addition by subtraction, to the glory of God.

Surprisingly, I felt the Spirit as I read this post! :party

And I am totally against church splits!!!!

[Praxeas]

Surprisingly, I felt the Spirit as I read this post! :party

And I am totally against church splits!!!!
how about splits in skirts?

[mizpeh]

how about splits in skirts?

It depends! Are pants considered skirt splits?

[deltaguitar]

The problem with the UCs being in the UPC is that typically UCs don't fellowship anyone that is not a UC...what is the point? What balance do they bring when they are infact a fringe element within the UPC?

Right. Then why does everyone want to see them go.

[scotty]

Ok, if you say so. My point in all of this is that getting rid of the Ultracons is not going to help the UPC unless there is a fundamental change. I see TV being the best way to bring about that change.

Why are non UPC trying to help UPC.?

Why do non UPC think they know what is best for UPC?
Is that not the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

[Jehoram]

I Just received this email......


I first emailed the GB member and asked this question...

On Feb 27, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Daniel Christensen wrote:

> Hello
> Hope all is well....
> Its all over the web.....the General Boards Meeting...
> Can you clarify?
> What exactly happened....
> WAY too many assumptions are being made.....
>
>
> Bro Dan
>

The response...

------------

To: Daniel Christensen <revdac777@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:55:38 PM
Subject: Re: HEY!

Hi Dan, yes the Board did vote that you couldn't belong to two org. One thing I thought interesting was, Johnny King turned in his license, and said to the board that he could not go the way the org. was going, He couldn't be in an org. that wouldn't uphold the beliefs that are in the manual. so he resigned publicly there at a board meeting.


-----------------
Dont ask......I posted all that needs to be known.

As I understand it, there will be much more information released about this meeting. All of it leaked, of course.

Sounds like quite the bomb.

[deltaguitar]

Why are non UPC trying to help UPC.?

Why do non UPC think they know what is best for UPC?
Is that not the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

I guess I would actually like to see the UPC succeed. They are the best oneness organization going and with a few changes could be an amazing organization.

I did spend the last 27 years of my life in a UPC church and have only been out of the mothership for the last 7 months.

My sister and her husband are ministers in the UPC and my wife's brother is going to get his local license this year. My wife's family are pioneers in the UPC movement. It is the only org I know.

However, now that I am on the outside looking in, and not having to defend the UPC every single day of my life, it is a lot easier to admit to the problems that the UPC is facing.

[Ronzo]

Does anyone else see the irony of this post???

Absolutely.

[Sam]

Hi Dan, yes the Board did vote that you couldn't belong to two org. One thing I thought interesting was, Johnny King turned in his license, and said to the board that he could not go the way the org. was going, He couldn't be in an org. that wouldn't uphold the beliefs that are in the manual. so he resigned publicly there at a board meeting.
...


I am not UPC and not familiar with the politics.
Who is Johnny King?
What office did he hold on the board?
Does he pastor a church, and is the church affiliated?

[Sam]

The funny thing is....now...right NOW...the UPC would STILL be considered by most outsiders to be a conservative group.

Well, paraphrasing something Bro. Epley said,
Everyone is somebody's conservative and everyone is somebody's liberal

[ReformedDave]

As anyone who has studied church history knows the UPC and OP movement has not been the only ones with these problems.

Around 1936 Gresham Machen left the mainline Presbyterian church and founded the organization that I'm a part of. One of our ministers(John Frame) is a wonderful and kingdom minded man and wrote a long article about this. I won't post the article as it would be a waste of my effort but I will post the last portion of it where he summarizes and offers a few remedies.......It might sound familiar.

(From Machen's Warrior Children) Observations

1. I have enumerated 21 areas of conflict occurring in American conservative Reformed circles from 1936 to the present. [65] Under some of those headings I have mentioned subdivisions, subcontroversies. Most of these controversies have led to divisions in churches and denominations, harsh words exchanged between Christians. People have been told that they are not Reformed, even that they have denied the Gospel. Since Jesus presents love as what distinguishes his disciples from the world (John 13:34-35), this bitter fighting is anomalous in a Christian fellowship. Reformed believers need to ask what has driven these battles. To what extent has this controversy been the fruit of the Spirit, and to what extent has it been a work of the flesh?

2. The Machen movement was born in the controversy over liberal theology. I have no doubt that Machen and his colleagues were right to reject this theology and to fight it. But it is arguable that once the Machenites found themselves in a “true Presbyterian church” they were unable to moderate their martial impulses. Being in a church without liberals to fight, they turned on one another.

3. One slogan of the Machen movement was “truth before friendship.” We should laud their intention to act according to principle without compromise. But the biblical balance is “speaking the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15). We must not speak the truth without thinking of the effect of our formulations on our fellow Christians, even our opponents. That balance was not characteristic of the Machen movement. [66]

4. Reformed people need to do much more thinking about what constitutes a test of orthodoxy. Is it really plausible to say that, say, Gordon Clark’s view of incomprehensibility was unorthodox, when neither Clark’s nor Van Til’s positions are clearly set forth in the Reformed confessions? But again and again through the history described above, writers have read one another out of the Reformed movement (and even out of Christianity) on such dubious bases. The assumption seems to be that any difference of opinion amounts to a test of fellowship, that any truth I possess gives me the right to disrupt the peace of the church until everybody comes to agree with me. But surely there are some disagreements that are not tests of orthodoxy, some differences that should be tolerated within the church. Examples include the disagreements over days and the eating of meat described by Paul in Rom. 14, and the disagreements about idol food which he discusses in 1 Cor. 8-10. In those passages, there is no suggestion that people holding the wrong view should be put out of the church. Rather, Paul condemns the party spirit and calls the disagreeing parties to live together as Christian brothers and sisters. In my judgment, the Machen movement thought little about the difference between tolerable and intolerable disagreements in the church.

5. Scripture often condemns a “contentious” spirit (Prov. 13:10, 18:6, 26:21, Hab. 1:3, 1 Cor. 1:11, 11:16, Tit. 3:9) and commends “gentleness” (2 Cor. 10:1, Gal. 5:22, 1 Thess. 2:7, 2 Tim. 2:24, Tit. 3:2, Jas. 3:17). The Reformed community should give much more attention to these biblical themes.

6. With many, though not all, of the issues described above it is possible to see the positions as complementary rather than as contradictory. I believe that is true of the Van Til/Clark controversy, the counseling controversy, the Sonship controversy and some others. As I said earlier, I find these positions more persuasive in what they affirm than in what they deny.

7. With other issues, there are genuine contradictions between the positions of the parties. But even in those cases, I think that often these parties are trying to express complementary biblical truths. Theonomy, for example, emphasizes the continuity between Old and New Testaments, anti-theonomy the discontinuity. A more adequate account will seek to do justice to both.

8. Overall, the quality of thought displayed in these polemics has not been a credit to the Reformed tradition. Writers have gone to great lengths to read their opponents’ words and motivations in the worst possible sense (often worse than possible) and to present their own ideas as virtually perfect: rightly motivated and leaving no room for doubt. Such presentations are scarcely credible to anybody who looks at the debates with minimal objectivity.

9. The various anniversary celebrations and official histories in the different Reformed denominational bodies have been largely self-congratulatory. [67] In Reformed circles, we often say that there is no perfect church, that churches as well as individuals are guilty of sin and liable to error. But Reformed writers and teachers seem to find it almost impossible to specify particular sins, even weaknesses, in their own traditions or denominations, particularly in their own partisan groups. A spirit of genuine self-criticism (prelude to a spirit of repentance) is an urgent need.

10. Nevertheless it is important to remember that there are some theological issues that really are matters of life and death for the church. In the PCUSA as of the time of this writing, there are controversies over whether church officers should be expected to observe biblical standards of sexual fidelity and chastity, over the ordination of homosexuals, and over whether Jesus is the only Lord and Savior. The outrageous fact that such issues can actually be debated within the church places other controversies into perspective. The Confessing Church Movement within the PCUSA is fighting a courageous battle, and they deserve the prayers and encouragement of all Reformed believers.

11. My assignment was to write on Reformed theology. But I should note that the remedy for the divisions above is not merely better theological formulations. The almost exclusive focus on doctrinal issues in many Reformed circles is itself part of the problem. As Tim Keller advises, Reformed Christianity needs a vision that encompasses not only doctrinal statements, but also our piety, evangelistic outreach, and missions of mercy. [68]

An Unrealistic Dream

1. That Reformed thinkers continue to have bright, fresh ideas, but that they present these ideas with humility and treat with grace and patience those who are not immediately convinced.

2. That Reformed thinkers with bright ideas discourage the rapid formation of parties to contend for those ideas.

3. That those initially opposed to those bright ideas allow some time for gentle, thoughtful discussion before declaring the bright ideas to be heresy.

4. That these opponents also discourage the rapid formation of partisan groups.

5. That those contending for various doctrinal positions accept the burden of proof, willing to bear the difficulty of serious biblical exegesis.

6. That we try much harder to guard our tongues (Jas. 3:1-12), saving the strongest language of condemnation (e.g., “denying the gospel”) for those who have been declared heretics by the judicial processes of the church.

7. That Reformed churches, ministries, and institutions be open to a wider range of opinions than they are now—within limits, of course.

8. That we honor one another as much for character and witness as we do for agreement with our theological positions.

9. That occasionally we smile and jest about our relatively minor differences, while praying, worshiping, and working together in the love of Christ. [69]

[Sam]

I liken it to the process of childbirth.
...


Someone else once likened the AS and resulting action to a bowel movement.

[TRFrance]

Ok, if you say so. My point in all of this is that getting rid of the Ultracons is not going to help the UPC unless there is a fundamental change. I see TV being the best way to bring about that change.

Right. Then why does everyone want to see them go.

Keep in mind, the UPC is not driving the UC's out. They are the ones choosing to drive themselves out. As far as I'm concerned, if they want to go, let them go. As the scripture says, "how can two walk together except they be in agreement?"

Why are non UPC trying to help UPC.?

Why do non UPC think they know what is best for UPC?
Is that not the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

Hmmm. Food for thought

[NLYP]

Ok...I have a question.....no disrespect...but why would anybody in their right mind give a flip what the presbyterians do or think or whatever......

[A_PoMo]

Why care about Presby's? Because people are people and the more things change the more they stay the same.

[Ronzo]

The more things change the more they stay the same.

No doubt

[ReformedDave]

Ok...I have a question.....no disrespect...but why would anybody in their right mind give a flip what the presbyterians do or think or whatever......

Simply because human nature is the same no matter what label you give yourself.......

[TRFrance]

Why are non UPC trying to help UPC.?

Why do non UPC think they know what is best for UPC?
Is that not the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

I guess I would actually like to see the UPC succeed. They are the best oneness organization going and with a few changes could be an amazing organization.

I did spend the last 27 years of my life in a UPC church and have only been out of the mothership for the last 7 months.

My sister and her husband are ministers in the UPC and my wife's brother is going to get his local license this year. My wife's family are pioneers in the UPC movement. It is the only org I know.

However, now that I am on the outside looking in, and not having to defend the UPC every single day of my life, it is a lot easier to admit to the problems that the UPC is facing.

The impression I get is that the main change you want to see in the UPC is that they either 1/ tolerate the preaching of PCI doctrine, or 2/ convert to a PCI denomination totally. (not gonna happen, I'm pretty sure)

You seem to think the UPC's main "problem" is that they strongly advocate the so called PAJC/"3-step" doctrine.

Frankly, to most of us on this side, that "problem" is really not a problem at all!

[TRFrance]

Ok...I have a question.....no disrespect...but why would anybody in their right mind give a flip what the presbyterians do or think or whatever......

Simply because human nature is the same no matter what label you give yourself.......

The Presbyterians have a bunch of false-doctrine issues going on, not the least of which is their struggle to deal with the "gay issue" in their churches and clergy.

The Trinity itself, dominant in most "mainstream" churches, is the mother of all manner of false doctrines.

So I don't know why so many self-described Apostolics spend so much time worrying about what the false-doctrine churches think of us. That kind of thinking just opens the door to the spirit of compromise that's trying to creep in among God's people... (some may say it has already crept in... but that's another story)

[crakjak]

Ok...I have a question.....no disrespect...but why would anybody in their right mind give a flip what the presbyterians do or think or whatever......

That is a typical attitude Dan, no one outside my family, church or group has a lick of knowledge or spiritual insight.

[TRFrance]

That is a typical attitude Dan, no one outside my family, church or group has a lick of knowledge or spiritual insight.

Umm...(See previous post. Thanks)

[ReformedDave]

The Presbyterians have a bunch of false-doctrine issues going on, not the least of which is their struggle to deal with the "gay issue" in their churches and clergy.

The Trinity itself, dominant in most "mainstream" churches, is the mother of all manner of false doctrines.

So I don't know why so many self-described Apostolics spend so much time worrying about what the false-doctrine churches think of us. That kind of thinking just opens the door to the spirit of compromise that's trying to creep in among God's people... (some may say it has already crept in... but that's another story)


No problem. Just thought a little wisdom could not hurt.

Adios

[Ron]

Bro Johnny King was the DS of the Alberta District & I am not surprised he did this.
He is an ultra-con.

I picked him up at the airport for Elder Reynolds funeral 6 years ago.
A nice guy but an Ultra-con to the core.

I wish him well.

I am not UPC and not familiar with the politics.
Who is Johnny King?
What office did he hold on the board?
Does he pastor a church, and is the church affiliated?

Hope this answers it for you.

[Bro-Larry]

Ho Hum!! I don't have a dog in this hunt.

[Ferd]

Bro. Ferd....you have a way with words.....I bow!:yourock:bow

I try, what can i say.


thanks.

[ReformedDave]

Ho Hum!! I don't have a dog in this hunt.

I don't either...as I've been reminded of.

[RevBuddy]

This does not get better from here, Ferd. It's those innocents caught in the cross hairs that will and are going to suffer the most ....

I think your description of "innocents" is inaccurate. JK has been a continual proponent of this position...and has had a number of GB run-ins...

[Sam]

Information available to the public:

Church Information

District: Canadian Plains District
Pastor: Johnny L. King
Physical address:
615 Northmount Dr NW, Calgary, AB, TK23J6

a phone number is given but there is no email or website info.
also, doesn't say if the church is affiliated or not

[CC1]

Sounds like Reverend King is now free to head up the Canadian District of the WWPF!

Did the board shine a colored follow spot on him as he made his dramatic announcement? Did they videotape it? Was the music playing in the background some of that ungodly music (translation - something other than Southern Gospel)?

Was the final straw when he saw a fellow Genreal Board Member with a short sleeve shirt on? Or wearing the color red?

[Sam]

Sounds like Reverend King is now free to head up the Canadian District of the WWPF!

Did the board shine a colored follow spot on him as he made his dramatic announcement? Did they videotape it? Was the music playing in the background some of that ungodly music (translation - something other than Southern Gospel)?

Was the final straw when he saw a fellow Genreal Board Member with a short sleeve shirt on? Or wearing the color red?

and did they all say, "Don't let the door hit you....."?

[drummerboy_dave]

...give a flip?

Being flippant about a pedophile?

And you're supposed to be a preacher?

Isn't there a preacher's forum wherein you can post this type of trash?

[pentecostisalive]

Information available to the public:

Church Information

District: Canadian Plains District
Pastor: Johnny L. King
Physical address:
615 Northmount Dr NW, Calgary, AB, TK23J6

a phone number is given but there is no email or website info.
also, doesn't say if the church is affiliated or not

His website is http://www.truthchurch.com

[Monkeyman]

His website is http://www.truthchurch.comI went to his online media page....empty...at least he is consistent!!!!!:)

[SDG]

I think your description of "innocents" is inaccurate. JK has been a continual proponent of this position...and has had a number of GB run-ins...

Elder ... the politicos are not the innocents .... it's the rank and file ... that I speak of.

[SDG]

Why care about Presby's? Because people are people and the more things change the more they stay the same.

No doubt

Simply because human nature is the same no matter what label you give yourself.......

If it's any consolation I understood your point, Dave. Those steeped in tradition and enamored w/ the concept of possessing the concept of truth can't compartmentalize or see the big picture.

Oh my ... the Presby's are Trinnies and not Apostolic .... run for the hills.

[Ferd]

Elder ... the politicos are not the innocents .... it's the rank and file ... that I speak of.

DA, what rank and file are hurt here??

I have no idea why you are even taking this line.
I think you need to explain what you mean by rank and file being hurt.

[Ferd]

Simply because human nature is the same no matter what label you give yourself.......

Dave, it might be of interst to you.... maybe not.

but in my city, a presbyterian church (conservitive group) just bought a property right accross the street from a presbyterian church (liberal one).

[James Griffin]

I'm still amazed that with the exodus of the ultra-cons I am just a couple whiskers away from being able to re-board the mothership as a conservative.

:happydance:happydance:happydance

[SDG]

As I understand it, there will be much more information released about this meeting. All of it leaked, of course.

Sounds like quite the bomb.

Pray tell ... you've piqued my interest.

[ReformedDave]

Dave, it might be of interst to you.... maybe not.

but in my city, a presbyterian church (conservitive group) just bought a property right accross the street from a presbyterian church (liberal one).

Good group. We're part of the 'legalistic' crowd too. As with Pentecostalism the title means very little any more.

[ReformedDave]

If it's any consolation I understood your point, Dave. Those steeped in tradition and enamored w/ the concept of possessing the concept of truth can't compartmentalize or see the big picture.

Oh my ... the Presby's are Trinnies and not Apostolic .... run for the hills.

That's all. Thanks for understanding.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Reformed Dave is The PCA liberal ?

[ReformedDave]

Reformed Dave is The PCA liberal ?

It's my understanding that they are conservative. They have some differences with the OPC but in my way of thinking it's most a tempest in a teapot. The OPC and the PCA fellowship.

[Scott Hutchinson]

What about a group in TN. called the Cumberland presbyterians I understand they would be classed as conservatives ?
I have talked to Primitive or Reformed typed baptists boy are they dogmatic.

[Theophil]

I'm still amazed that with the exodus of the ultra-cons I am just a couple whiskers away from being able to re-board the mothership as a conservative.

:happydance:happydance:happydance

FROM YOUR PICTURE...THIS IS LITERALLY TRUE! :bliss

[scotty]

I wonder sometimes if some of you really know what Ultra Con is.?

As far as I have experienced there is no one in UPC now or prior to Tulsa who falls under the label UC...

My grandfather was a OP preacher, the church in everyway, shape and form of salvation adhered to the beliefs of UPC. But he would never join the UPC because he believed they had compromised too much. This was back in 1980's.........He believed you lived ALL of the holiness standards or you were lost. period.

Thats Ultra Con...... I don't see that in UPC......I don't even see that in WWPF.....

I still say this split was about something else that has yet to make itself known.....

[ReformedDave]

What about a group in TN. called the Cumberland presbyterians I understand they would be classed as conservatives ?
I have talked to Primitive or Reformed typed baptists boy are they dogmatic.

It's my understand that the CP are conservative. Not real familiar with them.

Many of the primitive baptists are as nasty as the KJO baptists. Remember, baptists can be '5 pointers' but not 'reformed', i:e- covenantal.

But let's not hijack this thread anymore. I need time for my nose to heal.

[Sam]

It's my understand that the CP are conservative. Not real familiar with them.

Many of the primitive baptists are as nasty as the KJO baptists. Remember, baptists can be '5 pointers' but not 'reformed', i:e- covenantal.

But let's not hijack this thread anymore. I need time for my nose to heal.

Hey, I've got a Bible that is older and more Protestant than the KJV. It's the 1599 Geneva Bible.

I've also got a 1611 KJV with the old spelling, etc. It's interesting to note that there are alternate readings in the margins for some verses; it includes many of the books called Apocrypha; and at Hebrews 11:35 it has a cross reference to 2 Mac. 7:7

[Ferd]

I wonder sometimes if some of you really know what Ultra Con is.?

As far as I have experienced there is no one in UPC now or prior to Tulsa who falls under the label UC...

My grandfather was a OP preacher, the church in everyway, shape and form of salvation adhered to the beliefs of UPC. But he would never join the UPC because he believed they had compromised too much. This was back in 1980's.........He believed you lived ALL of the holiness standards or you were lost. period.

Thats Ultra Con...... I don't see that in UPC......I don't even see that in WWPF.....

I still say this split was about something else that has yet to make itself known.....

snicker....

really? you dont think it is known?

[scotty]

snicker....

really? you dont think it is known?


Naw it ain't known.....

There is no difference, read the rule book for both orgs, they are the same, WWPF is not advocating nothing new......

No TV....?!?!? so what?!?! they have a website that sits microns and a typo away from millions of porn sites... you think the TV resolution is why?!?! or was even the straw that broke the camels back?!?!?

Naa......This is disunity, plain and simple. Someone winked at someone elses wife....

[Apocrypha]

Hey, I've got a Bible that is older and more Protestant than the KJV. It's the 1599 Geneva Bible.

I've also got a 1611 KJV with the old spelling, etc. It's interesting to note that there are alternate readings in the margins for some verses; it includes many of the books called Apocrypha; and at Hebrews 11:35 it has a cross reference to 2 Mac. 7:7

its a pity they didnt include the 2nd century church fathers like Polycarp and Ignatius in the cannon, i love their writing.

[WyoPastor]

What does PCI stand for?

[Mrs. LPW]

I have to admit, that although sometimes I shook my head, I found this thread very entertaining tonight.. thanks guys!

(Honorable mention to Ferd's earlier post.
:hunter )

[scotty]

What does PCI stand for?

Pentecostal Claratin Institute

They clear up all the congestion of Pentecost that attacks the nasal passages and causes ones head to turn upwards.....

[scotty]

I have to admit, that although sometimes I shook my head, I found this thread very entertaining tonight.. thanks guys!


Hang around , it'll get even better as fatigue sets in

[Mrs. LPW]

Pentecostal Claratin Institute

They clear up all the congestion of Pentecost that attacks the nasal passages and causes ones head to turn upwards.....

I have to give this one an honorable mention as well.

[Mr. Steinway]

What does PCI stand for?

In a nutshell:

PCI stands for Pentecostal Church, Inc, which merged with the PAJC to form the UPC in 1945.

PCI doctrine was the one step view of salvation vs. the three step doctrine of the PAJC, which is prevalent in the UPCI these days.

[scotty]

PCI stands for Pentecostal Church, Inc, which merged with the PAJC to form the UPC in 1945.

PCI doctrine was the one step view of salvation vs. the three step doctrine of the PAJC, which is prevalent in the UPCI these days.

wow...

I had no idea what it stood for , just tried to be funny.....

sorry if I offended

[Sam]

What does PCI stand for?

Pentecostal Church Inc. which was one of two organizations which merged in 1945 to form the United Pentecostal Church. The other organization was the PAJC which stands for Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ.

[WyoPastor]

In a nutshell:

PCI stands for Pentecostal Church, Inc, which merged with the PAJC to form the UPC in 1945.

PCI doctrine was the one step view of salvation vs. the three step doctrine of the PAJC, which is prevalent in the UPCI these days.


OK, I just wasn't connecting the abbreviation. Now I understand.

[Mrs. LPW]

Hang around , it'll get even better as fatigue sets in

Why do you think I'm finding this so entertaining?

[scotty]

Why do you think I'm finding this so entertaining?

You mean your not?!?!?!

I love it, nothing better on a bashing thread than fun with them

[Apocrypha]

What does PCI stand for?


Pentecostal Church Incorporated

It was the smaller but better organized and finanaced half of the merger between the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ and the PCI. Some of their ministers were one steppers (some would say many of them). It was almost a lost tradition of thought after decades of pressure and purges until Thomas Fudges book brought it back to the attention of our generation.

[Mrs. LPW]

You mean your not?!?!?!

I love it, nothing better on a bashing thread than fun with them

Yes indeed, best entertainment I've had all day.

[scotty]

Yes indeed, best entertainment I've had all day.

aaaawwwww.......you got me with the sarcasm.......:ursofunny:ursofunny

[pelathais]

I don't understand why you guys want these ultracons out so bad. Without their strong hand in the organization you guys will be the new ultracons and will find yourselves fighting to keep the traditions you have grown to love so well.

The UPC can't keep the liberals and it can't keep the ultracons so it is destined to be an org full of mediocre moderates unless it starts to allow the liberals back. The only way this will happen is to finally allow the PCI view to be preached.

Once this happens you can be sure that those that are "weak on your message" will come to power and those who are now moderates will be the new UCs.

The UPC is either going to have change or become completely irrelevant and just throwing the ultracons out is not going to bring the change that you guys are expecting.
Excellent points, though the UPC hasn't "thrown out the ultra-cons." Just like Johnny King is reported to have done, the ultra-cons will all do some sort of AMF style card burning and walk out of the meeting. Though the AMF might be an example of ultra-cons who were shown the door.

The WWPF has been carefully orchastrating their own departure but have tried all along to make it appear that they were being forced out.

[Ferd]

Excellent points, though the UPC hasn't "thrown out the ultra-cons." Just like Johnny King is reported to have done, the ultra-cons will all do some sort of AMF style card burning and walk out of the meeting. Though the AMF might be an example of ultra-cons who were shown the door.

The WWPF has been carefully orchastrating their own departure but have tried all along to make it appear that they were being forced out.

you forgot to include the words "for a long time"

[pelathais]

Why are non UPC trying to help UPC.?

Why do non UPC think they know what is best for UPC?
Is that not the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?
No.

[Mrs. LPW]

No.

Yes.

:)

[Sam]

... Though the AMF might be an example of ultra-cons who were shown the door.

The WWPF has been carefully orchastrating their own departure but have tried all along to make it appear that they were being forced out.

I thought the AMF was formed after Bro. Murray Burr did not get elected to the office of GS so he and others left.

[pelathais]

Yes.

:)
Is not. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Great Scotty had said:

Why are non UPC trying to help UPC.?

Why do non UPC think they know what is best for UPC?
Is that not the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

Obviously I have no way of knowing Scotty's heart, I'm even having problems gauging how much he is jesting here; but if there is no jest intended at all then this post itself might be regarded as displaying the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

For myself, I am a non UPC having resigned from the UPC ministry a decade ago. And though I have proven myself to qualify for reinstatement a few years back, I really only did that because of the spiritual arrogance of a UPC preacher who made false allegations against me from the pulpit in front of my children.

I am also non UPC because over the course of the last few years I have also concluded that I cannot really adhere to the changes that have been made in the Fundamental Doctrine and the Articles of Faith. I guess that to an outsider I would be considered an "ultra-conservative" because of my resistance to many of the changes; but in the upside-down world of the UPC I am something else.

Why do I think that my course of action would be "best" for the UPC and why am I "trying to help?" Scotty suggests that it is spiritual arrogance, but I'll let you judge.

My wife and children attend a UPC church as do I when my work schedule allows. In preparing my taxes I have financial statements verifying support to two different UPC congregations; and for our means, it's pretty large support.

I have been approached by UPC pastors (and non-UPC) in the area on many occasions recently to provide research and sermon preparation help. Because of my frequent absenses from district events due to work and health related issues, some have even invited me to join their congregations thinking that I may not even be attending anywhere. I got an email yesterday from a leader in a nearby UPC church inviting me again to attend services with them.

Though I am non UPC, many of the UPC people who know me seem to like my help.

I really don't know of anyone who is "non UPC" and "trying to help" who has displayed the "spiritual arrogance" that at least appears to reside in the post above. Instead this seems to represent some sort of closed off and insular view of the fellowship that won't help at all.

[pelathais]

I thought the AMF was formed after Bro. Murray Burr did not get elected to the office of GS so he and others left.
I'm not an "expert" on that particular time, but I think you are correct about Murray Burr and his lost election. However there were several other complicating factors. Timlan touches on some of that here (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=365166&postcount=1). The folllowing posts are good too.

The one preacher that I knew myself who had left the UPC for the AMF did so because he was being dealt with in a very unethical and mean spirited fashion by his Superintendent.

I haven't seen any of the WWPF guys having their church property ownership threatened like some of the AMF cases. Until Monday the UPC has had a very hands off policy toward the WWPF ministers. And now, the only action that has been taken has been for them to say "choose."

[bishoph]

Excellent points, though the UPC hasn't "thrown out the ultra-cons." Just like Johnny King is reported to have done, the ultra-cons will all do some sort of AMF style card burning and walk out of the meeting. Though the AMF might be an example of ultra-cons who were shown the door.

The WWPF has been carefully orchastrating their own departure but have tried all along to make it appear that they were being forced out.

Pelathais,
I greatly enjoy interacting with you from time to time here on AFF, and even though I disagree from time to time with some of your ideology, we may not be that far apart in our core beliefs.

Having said that I do take issue with the above post. This post promotes the erroneous idea that Bro. King left the GB meeting in some kind of "victim" mentality or display. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Bro. King has reported that the GB made their decision after much prayer and healthy discussion. There was no mean spirit displayed by either side. (the rest of this is reported by others) After the GB made their final decision on the matter by way of voting, Bro. King addressed the GB with all humility, and after his subsequent resignation, the GB gathered around him and all of them prayed for him. It was a very amicable and noble departure, not one hewn with animosity and innuendo.

There are no card burning meetings planned, and if someone even tried such a thing, they would be immediately expelled from the WPF roster as that kind of attitude and spirit is totally against what the WPF stands for. JMHO

[pelathais]

Pelathais,
I greatly enjoy interacting with you from time to time here on AFF, and even though I disagree from time to time with some of your ideology, we may not be that far apart in our core beliefs.

Having said that I do take issue with the above post. This post promotes the erroneous idea that Bro. King left the GB meeting in some kind of "victim" mentality or display. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Bro. King has reported that the GB made their decision after much prayer and healthy discussion. There was no mean spirit displayed by either side. (the rest of this is reported by others) After the GB made their final decision on the matter by way of voting, Bro. King addressed the GB with all humility, and after his subsequent resignation, the GB gathered around him and all of them prayed for him. It was a very amicable and noble departure, not one hewn with animosity and innuendo.

There are no card burning meetings planned, and if someone even tried such a thing, they would be immediately expelled from the WPF roster as that kind of attitude and spirit is totally against what the WPF stands for. JMHO
Thank you Bishoph. I obviously wasn't there and only have the usual forum gossip and reports to go on until a trusted source like yourself paints a clearer picture.

And as you appear to be stating, no one was "thrown out" either.

[ReformedDave]

I'm not an "expert" on that particular time, but I think you are correct about Murray Burr and his lost election. However there were several other complicating factors. Timlan touches on some of that here (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=365166&postcount=1). The folllowing posts are good too.

The one preacher that I knew myself who had left the UPC for the AMF did so because he was being dealt with in a very unethical and mean spirited fashion by his Superintendent.

I haven't seen any of the WWPF guys having their church property ownership threatened like some of the AMF cases. Until Monday the UPC has had a very hands off policy toward the WWPF ministers. And now, the only action that has been taken has been for them to say "choose."

My father expressed much sadness of the forming of the AMF and the men that left the UPC. He chose to stay though there was a time when he came very close to leaving.

[Ferd]

Is not. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Great Scotty had said:



Obviously I have no way of knowing Scotty's heart, I'm even having problems gauging how much he is jesting here; but if there is no jest intended at all then this post itself might be regarded as displaying the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

For myself, I am a non UPC having resigned from the UPC ministry a decade ago. And though I have proven myself to qualify for reinstatement a few years back, I really only did that because of the spiritual arrogance of a UPC preacher who made false allegations against me from the pulpit in front of my children.

I am also non UPC because over the course of the last few years I have also concluded that I cannot really adhere to the changes that have been made in the Fundamental Doctrine and the Articles of Faith. I guess that to an outsider I would be considered an "ultra-conservative" because of my resistance to many of the changes; but in the upside-down world of the UPC I am something else.

Why do I think that my course of action would be "best" for the UPC and why am I "trying to help?" Scotty suggests that it is spiritual arrogance, but I'll let you judge.

My wife and children attend a UPC church as do I when my work schedule allows. In preparing my taxes I have financial statements verifying support to two different UPC congregations; and for our means, it's pretty large support.

I have been approached by UPC pastors (and non-UPC) in the area on many occasions recently to provide research and sermon preparation help. Because of my frequent absenses from district events due to work and health related issues, some have even invited me to join their congregations thinking that I may not even be attending anywhere. I got an email yesterday from a leader in a nearby UPC church inviting me again to attend services with them.

Though I am non UPC, many of the UPC people who know me seem to like my help.

I really don't know of anyone who is "non UPC" and "trying to help" who has displayed the "spiritual arrogance" that at least appears to reside in the post above. Instead this seems to represent some sort of closed off and insular view of the fellowship that won't help at all.

Pelathais is looking our way!

[Mrs. LPW]

Is not. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Great Scotty had said:



Obviously I have no way of knowing Scotty's heart, I'm even having problems gauging how much he is jesting here; but if there is no jest intended at all then this post itself might be regarded as displaying the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?

For myself, I am a non UPC having resigned from the UPC ministry a decade ago. And though I have proven myself to qualify for reinstatement a few years back, I really only did that because of the spiritual arrogance of a UPC preacher who made false allegations against me from the pulpit in front of my children.

I am also non UPC because over the course of the last few years I have also concluded that I cannot really adhere to the changes that have been made in the Fundamental Doctrine and the Articles of Faith. I guess that to an outsider I would be considered an "ultra-conservative" because of my resistance to many of the changes; but in the upside-down world of the UPC I am something else.

Why do I think that my course of action would be "best" for the UPC and why am I "trying to help?" Scotty suggests that it is spiritual arrogance, but I'll let you judge.

My wife and children attend a UPC church as do I when my work schedule allows. In preparing my taxes I have financial statements verifying support to two different UPC congregations; and for our means, it's pretty large support.

I have been approached by UPC pastors (and non-UPC) in the area on many occasions recently to provide research and sermon preparation help. Because of my frequent absenses from district events due to work and health related issues, some have even invited me to join their congregations thinking that I may not even be attending anywhere. I got an email yesterday from a leader in a nearby UPC church inviting me again to attend services with them.

Though I am non UPC, many of the UPC people who know me seem to like my help.

I really don't know of anyone who is "non UPC" and "trying to help" who has displayed the "spiritual arrogance" that at least appears to reside in the post above. Instead this seems to represent some sort of closed off and insular view of the fellowship that won't help at all.

I can't speak for Scotty... he likes to fun.. no idea. He likely wasn't aiming at you... and I know when I said "yes :) " I wasn't... since I don't know anything about you. (well, I do now!!)

[Mrs. LPW]

Pelathais is looking our way!

:toofunny

[James Griffin]

Pelathais,
I greatly enjoy interacting with you from time to time here on AFF, and even though I disagree from time to time with some of your ideology, we may not be that far apart in our core beliefs.

Having said that I do take issue with the above post. This post promotes the erroneous idea that Bro. King left the GB meeting in some kind of "victim" mentality or display. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Bro. King has reported that the GB made their decision after much prayer and healthy discussion. There was no mean spirit displayed by either side. (the rest of this is reported by others) After the GB made their final decision on the matter by way of voting, Bro. King addressed the GB with all humility, and after his subsequent resignation, the GB gathered around him and all of them prayed for him. It was a very amicable and noble departure, not one hewn with animosity and innuendo.

There are no card burning meetings planned, and if someone even tried such a thing, they would be immediately expelled from the WPF roster as that kind of attitude and spirit is totally against what the WPF stands for. JMHO

Bishoph thank you for this insight, sincerely. It adds much needed balance to the discussions.

[Ferd]

Pelathais,
I greatly enjoy interacting with you from time to time here on AFF, and even though I disagree from time to time with some of your ideology, we may not be that far apart in our core beliefs.

Having said that I do take issue with the above post. This post promotes the erroneous idea that Bro. King left the GB meeting in some kind of "victim" mentality or display. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Bro. King has reported that the GB made their decision after much prayer and healthy discussion. There was no mean spirit displayed by either side. (the rest of this is reported by others) After the GB made their final decision on the matter by way of voting, Bro. King addressed the GB with all humility, and after his subsequent resignation, the GB gathered around him and all of them prayed for him. It was a very amicable and noble departure, not one hewn with animosity and innuendo.

There are no card burning meetings planned, and if someone even tried such a thing, they would be immediately expelled from the WPF roster as that kind of attitude and spirit is totally against what the WPF stands for. JMHO

bishoph, we have been on opposite sides of this, but I apprecaite you posting this. While I dont mind mixing it up about what is happening, It is important to be grounded with the truth of the situation.

we should all be praying that everyone in leadership on both sides of the issue maintains the same spirit as the General Board and Brother King exemplified.

Blessings.

[Bullwinkle]

Unless I am sadly mistaken Bro. King still holds a UPC license today. He did not resign - he is letting his membership lapse at the end of the first quarter. He did announce his intention of leaving.

As a note, Bro. King is a man of character and integrity.

[Ferd]

Unless I am sadly mistaken Bro. King still holds a UPC license today. He did not resign - he is letting his membership lapse at the end of the first quarter.

the eyewitness accout is that it was turned in at the GB meeting.

I suppose, he is still licenensed until such time as his membership lapses. thus allowing for both views to be technically accurate.

however, baring some unforseen change of heart, Brother J. King is effectively out of the organization.

[DividedThigh]

bro king is a good man, each has to choose his own path, he will let the lord help him make his choice, nothing else to say, it is good if he left with a good spirit even if he had a heavy heart, dt

[Bullwinkle]

the eyewitness accout is that it was turned in at the GB meeting.

I suppose, he is still licenensed until such time as his membership lapses. thus allowing for both views to be technically accurate.

however, baring some unforseen change of heart, Brother J. King is effectively out of the organization.

The eyewitness account is wrong
He is still a Superintendent, still a minister in good standing even though he announced his intentions.

[Ferd]

The eyewitness account is wrong
He is still a Superintendent, still a minister in good standing even though he announced his intentions.

so this is an important hair to split?


i think it is wonderful that there was such a prayerful spirit in the meeting between brother King and the General Board.

clearly Brother King will no longer be a member of the UPCI... as you say, in 30 days or so.

[deltaguitar]

so this is an important hair to split?


i think it is wonderful that there was such a prayerful spirit in the meeting between brother King and the General Board.

clearly Brother King will no longer be a member of the UPCI... as you say, in 30 days or so.

I wonder how long this man has been in the UPC. It is very hard to leave what you have known all your life and I kinda feel sorry for these ultracons. They really believe that they are right and that someone needs to take a stand against the shift that they feel the UPC is taking.

This is really sad.

[ReformedDave]

I wonder how long this man has been in the UPC. It is very hard to leave what you have known all your life and I kinda feel sorry for these ultracons. They really believe that they are right and that someone needs to take a stand against the shift that they feel the UPC is taking.

This is really sad.

In a way it is sad. If they are leaving for conscience sake I admire their honesty.

When I left it was tough and I was just a member, though I do have a bit of UPC history. It must be tough for those that have invested most, if not all, their life's work. Their entire social network, for many, is invested in the UPC.

[SDG]

When the General Board member stood up and said he was leaving ...

HE told the board, and I paraphrase, "Gentleman, the WPF isn't being formed just because of TV. There is a concern amongst more conservative minded men, of what we see as a drifting from Apostolic holiness values."

An insider says it was done in a good spirit and that after he made his comments that several men went and hugged him and were very kind.... Apparently there was no bickering over this ...

[TrmptPraise]

When the General Board member stood up and said he was leaving ...

HE told the board, and I paraphrase, "Gentleman, the WPF isn't being formed just because of TV. There is a concern amongst more conservative minded men, of what we see as a drifting from Apostolic holiness values."

An insider says it was done in a good spirit and that after he made his comments that several men went and hugged him and were very kind.... Apparently there was no bickering over this ...

Dan,

This is my thoughts as well. Some seem bent on "prophesying" eminent civil war. I think Bro. Kings humble actions as well as the GB's do actually demonstrate the absence of the animosity that some want here.

[bishoph]

The eyewitness account is wrong
He is still a Superintendent, still a minister in good standing even though he announced his intentions.

I obviously am not an eyewitness, (I humbly stand corrected) I was only recounting (concerning his resignation) what I had been told. Never the less I think the point here, is that from every account, there was a good spirit which prevailed and was exemplified though brotherly love and mutual respect.

[Sam]

Pelathais,
...
Having said that I do take issue with the above post. This post promotes the erroneous idea that Bro. King left the GB meeting in some kind of "victim" mentality or display. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Bro. King has reported that the GB made their decision after much prayer and healthy discussion. There was no mean spirit displayed by either side. (the rest of this is reported by others) After the GB made their final decision on the matter by way of voting, Bro. King addressed the GB with all humility, and after his subsequent resignation, the GB gathered around him and all of them prayed for him. It was a very amicable and noble departure, not one hewn with animosity and innuendo.

There are no card burning meetings planned, and if someone even tried such a thing, they would be immediately expelled from the WPF roster as that kind of attitude and spirit is totally against what the WPF stands for. JMHO

I like that.

[Revelationist]

When the General Board member stood up and said he was leaving ...

HE told the board, and I paraphrase, "Gentleman, the WPF isn't being formed just because of TV. There is a concern amongst more conservative minded men, of what we see as a drifting from Apostolic holiness values."

An insider says it was done in a good spirit and that after he made his comments that several men went and hugged him and were very kind.... Apparently there was no bickering over this ...

WOW... that's exactly the way it was when I left the last church I was in before I started a church... that good spirit lasted until the door closed behind me.

[A_PoMo]

WOW... that's exactly the way it was when I left the last church I was in before I started a church... that good spirit lasted until the door closed behind me.

...or until the forums got wind of it. :)

[ManOfWord]

WOW... that's exactly the way it was when I left the last church I was in before I started a church... that good spirit lasted until the door closed behind me.

I perceive that thou art a prophet!!!

[TRFrance]

Someone else once likened the AS and resulting action to a bowel movement.

Hmmm.

I'm not sure if thats supposed to be more insulting to the UPC, or to those who were "forced out" .

[Revelationist]

I perceive that thou art a prophet!!!


Don't have to be to see what's coming... : )

[pelathais]

Someone else once likened the AS and resulting action to a bowel movement.

Hmmm.

I'm not sure if thats supposed to be more insulting to the UPC, or to those who were "forced out" .
It was the author of the AS Resolution who had said that. I heard it myself. FWIW.

The idea was to obviously equate those who would be "forced out" with something vile and unclean. I repeat the comment because there are those who used to be on AFF who heard the same or similar things from this source but kept insisting that the AS was done in a good spirit. It is helpful to remind these guys from time to time of what that spirit really was. Even though many of them were there, they insist upon exercising a selective memory.

Also FWIW, I saw one fellow rather prominently in some of the WPF photos who was with me and heard the same thing cited above and it was all he could do to keep from falling on the floor laughing at the comment. He had to turn his head and bury his face in the crook of his arm and snickered convulsively.

[ManOfWord]

It was the author of the AS Resolution who had said that. I heard it myself. FWIW.

Also FWIW, I saw one fellow rather prominently in some of the WPF photos who was with me and heard the same thing and it was all he could do to keep from falling on the floor laughing at the comment.

When the "offenders" become labeled "heretics" ANY action against them is justified. History bears this fact only too well. :D

[Fiyahstarter]

Bowel movement? Please... Some of those remaining should smell half so good.

I have a great RESPECT for the men who refused to sign the AS.

I QUESTION the ones who signed but do not belive it or uphold it.

I PRAY for the ones who signed it and actually believe it.