RKS Upclose

[rkentsmith]

I have been preaching about tares of late. I offer this simply as a blessing....rks

http://rkentsmith.blogspot.com/

[rkentsmith]

Tracie has assumed the burden of the worst crime infested apartments in our city. The community is locked behind twelve foot iron gates but the trouble is both inside and out. I am amazed at her fearless assault for a few young children in this hopeless neighborhood. Tonight I watched one of her little friends outside the church doors as she waited for her ride home and purposed that maybe we can keep this child from an early teen pregnancy, abuse and drug use. Tracie is my hero. I love her too......rks

Click for more ....... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[rkentsmith]

Check out my latest blog.... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[Sweet Pea]

Very thought-provoking blog. Thank you for sharing!

[BrotherEastman]

Check out my latest blog.... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com
Thanks for sharing Bro. Smith.

[tv1a]

Would it be too much to ask to post the content on this thread? It is a gem.

I don't know of many upc churches who are ready to reach the lost. They may talk it but when the rubber meets the road, they slam on the brakes.

Real harvest means gathering in the snotty nosed, little kids. Lining them up on the front pew. Real revival is to embrace the teenage single mom, the gothic inspired teenager. The punks with spike hairdos and more metal in their bodies than I have in my vehicle.

Real harvest is going into the highways and byways where the druggies, the poor, the prostitutes, the addicts are and showing love.

Those bottles of water will not got to waste. There is something powerful when one gives a drink of water to someone in Jesus name. While someone thinks that bottle of water is to quench a natural thirst, something is stirred in their spirit to find the river of living water.

Good post rev.

[rgcraig]

Sunday, February 10, 2008
Posted by Pastor R Kent Smith at 5:22 PM

Yesterday I Wept

The Saturdays of my first ten years in Conroe were spent in the harvest…

God blessed and I have not done much of that the last seven…

Pastoral duty called and I did not have time for such things…

Oh, we would have campaigns and blitz and I would lead the charge…

I have bought thousands of info tapes and given them away...

I have printed hundreds of thousands of pieces of literature...

Websites, yellow page ads, news paper ads, etc

Bicycles, mp3 players, backpacks, candy and who knows what else have been given away by this ministry...

In a container on our parking lot is nearly 10,000 bottles of water we are giving away....

I am certain without research, but I have signed checks for hundreds of thousands of dollars we have sent out for the souls....

But yesterday I wept…

For Tracie and I spent the afternoon in the harvest…

And I felt for the first time in years the actual weight of burden for people I did not know…

Oh, preacher man I know we all have burdens for our cities, communities and churches…

But I felt the emotion of the impossibility of the depravity of those addicted and helpless….

I felt the helplessness of the children of those same addicts…

My years in jail ministry taught me to be hard and the ones there had done the crime so they had to serve the time…

But little children locked behind flimsy doors protected by fearful parents or guardians who are afraid for the kids to sit on the front porch…

And then there were the street smart ones…

The urchins for lack of a better word…

I wept over a group of twelve and thirteen year old little girls who are already living the promiscuous life their mommas taught them…

I wept as I watched the police cruiser stop and the officers begin beating on a door…

I wept over Tracie’s little friend Destiny who was so sad this week…

We took her to lunch and she was so sad and refused to talk….

Yeah…

Kent and Tracie took the little urchin named Destiny to lunch…

The successful pastor and his trophy wife were sitting at a picnic table with a little girl who had not eaten in a day or so…

Or had a bath…

And I wept…

My heart literally rose in my throat as I considered the hopeless future these young ones have …

Without a savior…

I wept…

Is my current emotion somewhat similar to what Jesus felt that day he looked over Jerusalem?

My emotion was for a neighborhood….

His, a world…

Yesterday I wept…

Oh, I always cry at the Home Missions service at General Conference…

I am ashamed that it has been years since I wept for souls…

This morning, is was Prime Time Pastor Hour…

Music was good…

Church nicely full…

Several visiting families…

All teams hitting on all cylinders….

Pastor was feeling and looking good…

But then…

Tracie comes through the front door with a little string of urchins who only have one hope…

And I wept….

Preachers….

We have our fine suits…

Fine houses…

Fine automobiles…

Fine churches…

Magazine offices…

Designer services…

Hobbies, friends and portfolios

All so nice…

We have all wept for the success of our ministries…

We have wept for the success of our careers…

How long since we truly wept over those that we really are their only hope…

Yesterday I wept…

Today it continues…

I hope it never stops…

[Cindy]

Very powerful Bro. Smith.

[Cindy]

Would it be too much to ask to post the content on this thread? It is a gem.

I don't know of many upc churches who are ready to reach the lost. They may talk it but when the rubber meets the road, they slam on the brakes.

Real harvest means gathering in the snotty nosed, little kids. Lining them up on the front pew. Real revival is to embrace the teenage single mom, the gothic inspired teenager. The punks with spike hairdos and more metal in their bodies than I have in my vehicle.

Real harvest is going into the highways and byways where the druggies, the poor, the prostitutes, the addicts are and showing love.

Those bottles of water will not got to waste. There is something powerful when one gives a drink of water to someone in Jesus name. While someone thinks that bottle of water is to quench a natural thirst, something is stirred in their spirit to find the river of living water.

Good post rev.


Yes it is a gem. But then you posted negatively of the UPC churches. So is it your opinion that every other church doesn't slam on the brakes?

[tv1a]

The upci is a point of common reference between the blog's author and myself. The fact there was huge blow up about tv advertising is one piece of solid evidence that there was a faction in the organization which did not believe the mantra the whole gospel to the whole world.

There's God's way, then there's the upci's way. Those who don't do it the upci way are usually on the receiving of the criticism from the self righteous know it alls. Look how much criticism the Manguns have taken about the revival God has poured out in Alexandria. I can't believe someone would take issue with Micky Mangun singing the National Anthem at an event.

I know a district official who couldn't keep a new convert in his church even if he tried. Yet he is more than willing to criticize the church 20 miles down the road for being charismatic. He should than his lucky stars he got our sickly sheep. About the only thing they are good for is a good offering. They don't do much soul-winning. They are too busy tearing down the preacher to do so.

While there are exceptions to the rule, the upci is still largely made up of all talk and no action type of people who easily criticized the successful. Thank God there is a generation rising to the occassion which understands the mandate GOD has given them. They are not afraid to take the church to the next level. I'm glad I'm in a upci church that moving forward.

Yes it is a gem. But then you posted negatively of the UPC churches. So is it your opinion that every other church doesn't slam on the brakes?

[Cindy]

The upci is a point of common reference between the blog's author and myself. The fact there was huge blow up about tv advertising is one piece of solid evidence that there was a faction in the organization which did not believe the mantra the whole gospel to the whole world.

There's God's way, then there's the upci's way. Those who don't do it the upci way are usually on the receiving of the criticism from the self righteous know it alls. Look how much criticism the Manguns have taken about the revival God has poured out in Alexandria. I can't believe someone would take issue with Micky Mangun singing the National Anthem at an event.

I know a district official who couldn't keep a new convert in his church even if he tried. Yet he is more than willing to criticize the church 20 miles down the road for being charismatic. He should than his lucky stars he got our sickly sheep. About the only thing they are good for is a good offering. They don't do much soul-winning. They are too busy tearing down the preacher to do so.

While there are exceptions to the rule, the upci is still largely made up of all talk and no action type of people who easily criticized the successful. Thank God there is a generation rising to the occassion which understands the mandate GOD has given them. They are not afraid to take the church to the next level. I'm glad I'm in a upci church that moving forward.

You are kind of tearing down the UPCI yourself, and that would include the preachers.

[Scott Hutchinson]

This is a great piece,the author done a great job,I don't think he is taking jabs at the UPCI,since the author is a member of the org,he could write what he wrote and be justified in doing so since he belongs to the org.

[Pressing-On]

Excellent!!!

[CC1]

Sunday, February 10, 2008
Posted by Pastor R Kent Smith at 5:22 PM

Yesterday I Wept

The Saturdays of my first ten years in Conroe were spent in the harvest…

God blessed and I have not done much of that the last seven…

Pastoral duty called and I did not have time for such things…

Oh, we would have campaigns and blitz and I would lead the charge…

I have bought thousands of info tapes and given them away...

I have printed hundreds of thousands of pieces of literature...

Websites, yellow page ads, news paper ads, etc

Bicycles, mp3 players, backpacks, candy and who knows what else have been given away by this ministry...

In a container on our parking lot is nearly 10,000 bottles of water we are giving away....

I am certain without research, but I have signed checks for hundreds of thousands of dollars we have sent out for the souls....

But yesterday I wept…

For Tracie and I spent the afternoon in the harvest…

And I felt for the first time in years the actual weight of burden for people I did not know…

Oh, preacher man I know we all have burdens for our cities, communities and churches…

But I felt the emotion of the impossibility of the depravity of those addicted and helpless….

I felt the helplessness of the children of those same addicts…

My years in jail ministry taught me to be hard and the ones there had done the crime so they had to serve the time…

But little children locked behind flimsy doors protected by fearful parents or guardians who are afraid for the kids to sit on the front porch…

And then there were the street smart ones…

The urchins for lack of a better word…

I wept over a group of twelve and thirteen year old little girls who are already living the promiscuous life their mommas taught them…

I wept as I watched the police cruiser stop and the officers begin beating on a door…

I wept over Tracie’s little friend Destiny who was so sad this week…

We took her to lunch and she was so sad and refused to talk….

Yeah…

Kent and Tracie took the little urchin named Destiny to lunch…

The successful pastor and his trophy wife were sitting at a picnic table with a little girl who had not eaten in a day or so…

Or had a bath…

And I wept…

My heart literally rose in my throat as I considered the hopeless future these young ones have …

Without a savior…

I wept…

Is my current emotion somewhat similar to what Jesus felt that day he looked over Jerusalem?

My emotion was for a neighborhood….

His, a world…

Yesterday I wept…

Oh, I always cry at the Home Missions service at General Conference…

I am ashamed that it has been years since I wept for souls…

This morning, is was Prime Time Pastor Hour…

Music was good…

Church nicely full…

Several visiting families…

All teams hitting on all cylinders….

Pastor was feeling and looking good…

But then…

Tracie comes through the front door with a little string of urchins who only have one hope…

And I wept….

Preachers….

We have our fine suits…

Fine houses…

Fine automobiles…

Fine churches…

Magazine offices…

Designer services…

Hobbies, friends and portfolios

All so nice…

We have all wept for the success of our ministries…

We have wept for the success of our careers…

How long since we truly wept over those that we really are their only hope…

Yesterday I wept…

Today it continues…

I hope it never stops…

Powerful reminder of the havest field and the times we live in. I just flew in from Los Angeles tonight and while there was once again reminded of just how many people are alien to a relationship with God or even any real knowledge of Him.

[rkentsmith]

Thanks folks

[COOPER]

Is Conroe,Tx. a mean city like New York?

[rkentsmith]

Is Conroe,Tx. a mean city like New York?

Conroe cannot begin to equal NYC.....

However we do have an area that is quite ethnic and a drug culture and gangs took over....

Our mayor created a coalition of pastors and civic leaders to deal with the gangs and that has gone pretty good....

However the drug traffic has slowed little and it is quite violent.....

A white face after dark is rare.....

But God has given us grace and we go in HIS name

[Neck]

Check out my latest blog.... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

Emotion?

[tv1a]

Most upci preachers won't back up the rhetoric of reaching the lost. They automatically slam doors shut which God attempts to open. They go as far as to try to limit others attempt to use different methodolgies.

You are kind of tearing down the UPCI yourself, and that would include the preachers.

[rkentsmith]

Emotion?


Yup...

Even used the word....

You know something my brother....

I do not think I have ever seen a single post from you that was not hypercritical or negative or bitter or something.....

Blessings

[rkentsmith]

The following is what I call a seminar post from forum land. I have shared this many times with many men. This writing was done for ministers I interact with on forums. Conroe UPC was built around this principle. John 12:24 has impacted my life more than any single verse beyond the New Birth message. I share with you here a principle that Tracie and I have lived. The principle is before you. The details of the dying still burn within us. We recognize that every harvest requires yet another death. So Lord I am ready to die again if it means yet another revival. I pray you feel the spirit of this piece. rks

Link...www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[StMark]

Didn't Verbal Bean preach something similar to this right before he died?

[rkentsmith]

Didn't Verbal Bean preach something similar to this right before he died?

Not sure...

But I had to live this for myself

[Joelel]

The following is what I call a seminar post from forum land. I have shared this many times with many men. This writing was done for ministers I interact with on forums. Conroe UPC was built around this principle. John 12:24 has impacted my life more than any single verse beyond the New Birth message. I share with you here a principle that Tracie and I have lived. The principle is before you. The details of the dying still burn within us. We recognize that every harvest requires yet another death. So Lord I am ready to die again if it means yet another revival. I pray you feel the spirit of this piece. rks

Link...www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

Hi,I have found in preaching if we stay dead we will have continuing revival.This dying is not something we are to do over and over but we are to die and stay dead.Dead to what ? Dead to all sin, but not only must I stay dead, but I must preach death.Most pastors and preachers and people they pastor don't die to all sin,they usually hang on to a sin or two.The key is in verse 25.

[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
[25] He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal

Matt.13
[22] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

1John.2
[15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
[16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

[Joelel]

Didn't Verbal Bean preach something similar to this right before he died?

Pastor Bean from Houston was the only man I know who lived the life to have life.Wish I knew an other.

[rkentsmith]

I love words! I have been reading this book outloud to myself so I can see, feel and hear Lacado's wordsmithing flow. If you love words and The Word read this and get lost in both........... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[rkentsmith]

A couple of years ago my son Trent was in the crossroads of life. Graduating from high school and dually enrolled in college. He was also feeling the call of God on his life yet he was in the midst teenage confusions. His life was a bit bumpy and one particular day had not been good. Late that evening I went upstairs, lay on his bed beside him, and told him this little story… www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[rkentsmith]

I have shared this with many ministry friends and always enjoy the chuckle shared when somebody else realizes they are not the only ones who struggle with such things. This is also posted currently on Full Proof Team Blog. Read more... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[SDG]

I have shared this with many ministry friends and always enjoy the chuckle shared when somebody else realizes they are not the only ones who struggle with such things. This is also posted currently on Full Proof Team Blog. Read more... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com (http://www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com)

Another bash musicians diatribe. The suggestion that musicians are gay or "artsy" is not new here. God forbid you say something about a philandering preacher.

I've decided to add to my ministry .... casting people out of Satan.

Stop blaming the devil for personal carnal choices.

[freeatlast]

I have shared this with many ministry friends and always enjoy the chuckle shared when somebody else realizes they are not the only ones who struggle with such things. This is also posted currently on Full Proof Team Blog. Read more... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

Did you really write that yourself ?

Do you hate everybody or just Pentecostals.

[rkentsmith]

Another bash musicians diatribe. The suggestion that musicians are gay or "artsy" is not new here. God forbid you say something about a philandering preacher.

I've decided to add to my ministry .... casting people out of Satan.

Stop blaming the devil for personal carnal choices.


Dan with his typical misspin of what was said..

Nobody said anything about gay.....

Music is artsy....

Blessings

[Kutless]

Dan with his typical misspin of what was said..

Nobody said anything about gay.....

Music is artsy....

BlessingsYou did use the word artsy...may have been in a similar context.

To me it sounds like maybe there needs to be a bit more concern on the part of the leader. Musicians always get a bad rap. MOst of the time its because the "music devil" is in the sound room.

Instead of having a deliverance service for these strays how about maybe incorporating some professional training, workshops, or maybe even paying for their stay at one of the organizational "music-fests"

My pastor also requires the platform personal to pray before service.

[RandyWayne]

While I disagree with the phrase "music devil", I think the post hits on the personality type that many "artsy" people have. Think of how almost all painters are portrayed in old sitcoms as the wild, French-accent, types with a crazy beard who throw a few drops of paint on a canvas and shout "brilliant!". I think it is just part of the creative personality.

[Jehoram]

I have shared this with many ministry friends and always enjoy the chuckle shared when somebody else realizes they are not the only ones who struggle with such things. This is also posted currently on Full Proof Team Blog. Read more... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

The complete ignorance contained in this article is both shocking and sad.

I do use ignorance in the unaltered definition of the word.

[Monkeyman]

Well, this seems as good a time as any to brag on our music team. They fast, they pray, they rehearse, they don't clamor for the spotlight, but when required they WILL step to the plate, they volunteer for EVERYTHING else that is going on at the church, they love their peers, they love and respect their elders, they are anointed, they love leaving the platform to pray for people, I guess that is why sometimes we don't need music at the end of a service to be impactful, or set a mood, they already have done that during prayer and in their walk with God...and I ain't speaking of "some" of them....ALLso take your devil comments elsewhere and leave my team alone, where is that beatdown smiley, he he!!!

[SDG]

I honestly think some preachers rail on musicians to deflect attention.

[freeatlast]

Gotta add a big DITTO Monkeyman.

My music people are greatly appreciated.

[rkentsmith]

Well, this seems as good a time as any to brag on our music team. They fast, they pray, they rehearse, they don't clamor for the spotlight, but when required they WILL step to the plate, they volunteer for EVERYTHING else that is going on at the church, they love their peers, they love and respect their elders, they are anointed, they love leaving the platform to pray for people, I guess that is why sometimes we don't need music at the end of a service to be impactful, or set a mood, they already have done that during prayer and in their walk with God...and I ain't speaking of "some" of them....ALLso take your devil comments elsewhere and leave my team alone, where is that beatdown smiley, he he!!!

Ah yes....

Thanks for every song...

Every moment given....

This piece is not dedicated to those who remain faithful and submitted to God....

But rather the ones who do what they do for thier own significance....

And not as unto the Lord.....

[TRFrance]

Good grief.
Its called satire, people.
S.A.T.I.R.E. Look it up if you don't know what the word means.

Some folks seem to take everything a bit too seriously.

I actually thought it was a pretty good piece.

[SDG]

Ah yes....

Thanks for every song...

Every moment given....

This piece is not dedicated to those who remain faithful and submitted to God....

But rather the ones who do what they do for thier own significance....

And not as unto the Lord.....

If so then there will be a sequel .... Preacher Devils?

[Monkeyman]

Ah yes....

Thanks for every song...

Every moment given....

This piece is not dedicated to those who remain faithful and submitted to God....

But rather the ones who do what they do for thier own significance....

And not as unto the Lord.....Cool, but, I don't need your thanks, I ain't doing it for ya!!!:)

[Monkeyman]

Good grief.
Its called satire, people.
S.A.T.I.R.E. Look it up if you don't know what the word means.

Some folks seem to take everything a bit too seriously.

I actually thought it was a pretty good piece.Whatever dude, you wouldn't believe what I have heard out of folk's mouths! And trust me bro, I'm as sarcastic as there is, lol!

[SDG]

I don't know how sarcastic it is, TR ... the UC culture has bred this notion in the blog for awhile. UC's have problems keeping musician's they can't control and/or manipulate. Their musician turnover is great ... I say this based on 30 plus years of observations and anecdotal information.

[TRFrance]

Whatever dude, you wouldn't believe what I have heard out of folk's mouths! And trust me bro, I'm as sarcastic as there is, lol!
Oh please. Its a simple satirical article by one writer. It's not about what you've "heard out of folks mouths" in the past.

So should musicians be immune from satire because they'll be offended? Please.

Lighten up, folks. Its just a simple article. Its not that serious.

[Kutless]

Satire-irony or caustic wit used to attack or expose human folly.

Folly-a lack of good sense, understanding or foresight.

Maybe I did miss the intentions here but by definition it seems pretty harsh

[Monkeyman]

Oh please. Its a simple satirical article by one writer. It's not about what you've "heard out of folks mouths" in the past.

So should musicians be immune from satire because they'll be offended? Please.

Lighten up, folks. Its just a simple article. Its not that serious.Uh, no, my "reaction" is based upon what I have heard, this article just moves that discussion a little further, so I don't apologize for bragging on my team when I read this junk, nuf said. If you don't like it, fine, we will disagree.

[RevDWW]

My what an uplifting blog! [a small dusting of scarasm]

Maybe they just need to be jackslaped into submission. [Again just a touch of scarcasm]


:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[Bro B]

Send me all of the musicians you don't want.

[TRFrance]

Gee. I see this is a touchy subject around here.

I guess I'll just make a mental note not to poke fun at any musicians on this forum. I wouldn't want to have to start checking for explosives under my car. :cool:

(I'll just quietly exit the room before the wrath comes down) :O)

[MusicMaster]

Good grief.
Its called satire, people.
S.A.T.I.R.E. Look it up if you don't know what the word means.

Some folks seem to take everything a bit too seriously.

I actually thought it was a pretty good piece.

If so then there will be a sequel .... Preacher Devils?

Oh please. Its a simple satirical article by one writer. It's not about what you've "heard out of folks mouths" in the past.

So should musicians be immune from satire because they'll be offended? Please.

Lighten up, folks. Its just a simple article. Its not that serious.

I wondered how this would go over with a little word replacement. Let's see.



I ponder this title....

And ask myself....

What is a bitter preacher Devil?

Everybody knows that Lucifer got kicked out of Heaven and landed in the local United Pentecostal Church....

Or maybe behind the pulpit....

Seems like if the devil shows up anywhere it will be somewhere in the preachers...

I call these things...

bitter preacher Devils...

However a bitter preacher Devil is not a person....

It is an attitude....

Those that are the bitter preacher types many times possess a moody temperamental side that is difficult for the rest of us to deal with.

And since the bitter preacher types has talent that helps him into spiritual arenas without having to pursue the Almighty...

Or pray....

Many times their carnal side becomes prevalent....

Also, since we that are not bitter preachers are dependent upon those that are.....

Many times we find ourselves bending rules to accommodate the mood swings of the bitter preacher.......

We fail the bitter preacher type by giving in to their moods....

When we do so, the mood of the bitter preacher type learns that he now has power to flaunt and get its way....

So the next time the mood appears.....

It appears in the form of a Bitter Preacher Devil....

Another way a Bitter Preacher Devil manifest itself is the fits and temper tantrums it seems to enjoy having while on internet forums......

Or even in a church service when something does not go its way.....

And then whammo.....

The Bitter Preacher Devil appears....

Have you ever seen the faces a Bitter preacher devil can make at his congregation who falls asleep during his tirade....

Or have you seen the hand gestures that go back and forth...

Persons who struggle with the Bitter Preacher Devil Syndrome are quick to pout and cause members to leave the church......

Or purposely drag in to the service late....

Many times dressed in his $500 suit so as to make a statement.....

The statement is....

You can't make it without me....

But the bitter preacher Devil is so mistaken.......

There is always a replacement....

Usually much better than he himself is.....

Bitter preacher devils are on some internet forums.....

They show up in a poster who doesn't want to read that others might just make it to heaven in spite of believing differently than they do....

Bitter preacher Devils show up to just see how many posters they can make stoop to their level of putting others down.

Bitter preacher devils want people to think they are holier than anyone else....

When in fact, if they spent more time in prayer than they did criticizing others God would work more through them....

Bitter Preacher Devils show up to criticize and condemn others to hell, but sure don't want to take a long look in the mirror at themselves....

Bitter preacher Devils never seem to want to do anything but be critical....

Never would one consider doing anything else......

Swab a toilet.....NO

Pick up a visitor.....NO

But throw a fit if something or someone crosses their whim in any way....YES

I've dealt with many bitter preacher devils over the years....

Ironically, the minister person who struggles with a bitter preacher Devil is most times a most wonderful person....

He just has the glaring weakness of a bitter preacher Devil....

How many bitter preacher Devils have you seen fill out a tithe envelope?

Have you ever seen the person who struggles with a bitter preacher Devil stroll into church late and then have the gall to meander up to the stage and assume their rightful position of power at the pulpit?

The same cat has disdained to pray and now he and his bitter preacher Devil have the audicity to think that the anointing of the Holy Ghost is going to flow through them....

I don't think so.....

It ought not be done so in Israel......

Do you know anyone who struggles with a bitter preacher Devil?

Have you ever seen a bitter preacher Devil at your church?

Do you have a bitter preacher Devil?

If this makes you mad.....

I bet you do you have inside of you one of them.....

bitter preacher Devils.....

[SDG]

MusicMaster ... now that's satire.

[Monkeyman]

Gee. I see this is a touchy subject around here.

I guess I'll just make a mental note not to poke fun at any musicians on this forum. I wouldn't want to have to start checking for explosives under my car. :cool:

(I'll just quietly exit the room before the wrath comes down) :O)He he, now THAT was funny!

[Digging4Truth]

Good grief.
Its called satire, people.
S.A.T.I.R.E. Look it up if you don't know what the word means.

Some folks seem to take everything a bit too seriously.

I actually thought it was a pretty good piece.

Uhh... per the response quoted below I don't think that it was meant as satire. Maybe presented in a somewhat humorous format but not satire.

Ah yes....

Thanks for every song...

Every moment given....

This piece is not dedicated to those who remain faithful and submitted to God....

But rather the ones who do what they do for thier own significance....

And not as unto the Lord.....

[rkentsmith]

I would of never posted the link to offend....

[Digging4Truth]

Cool, but, I don't need your thanks, I ain't doing it for ya!!!:)

LOL...

One night there were about a dozen people in the pews (unusually small crowd). After the service someone came and commented that we didn't let the small crowd slow us down and that the worship had gone on as if hundreds were in the congregation.

I stopped and responded... numbers don't matter. I'm only singing to one anyway.

:)

It's about keeping the main thing the main thing.

[The Mrs]

I would of never posted the link to offend....

:doh

[Digging4Truth]

:doh

I have to agree. :)

[TRFrance]

Uhh... per the response quoted below I don't think that it was meant as satire. Maybe presented in a somewhat humorous format but not satire.

Well, when I look up the dictionary definition of satire, (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/satire )the article in question seems to fit well within that definition.

If you disagree, fine.

[Kutless]

Well, when I look up the dictionary definition of satire, (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/satire )the article in question seems to fit well within that definition.

If you disagree, fine.Thats IT!!!!!!!! Where did you park!!!!!

[rkentsmith]

Folks my wife just emailed me this little quote......

Following is an excerpt from something I received from WNOP…..


There is nothing more valuable than a committed volunteer. Whether it is a prayer leader, Sunday school teacher, choir member, ministry leader or a faithful saint that is always there to lend a hand- without them, where would we be? Pray for God to anoint and refresh their hands and feet. Pray that they are renewed with the oil of the Holy Spirit to keep them flexible and always have a contrite spirit. Pray that God would bless what ever they put their hands to.

[Digging4Truth]

Well, when I look up the dictionary definition of satire, (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/satire )the article in question seems to fit well within that definition.

If you disagree, fine.

No problem.

You response seem to allude to a feeling on your part that satire was a comedic writing. Per the definitions given at Miriam Webster this article could very well be satire.

1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly

But for one to say....

Good grief.
Its called satire, people.
S.A.T.I.R.E. Look it up if you don't know what the word means.

Some folks seem to take everything a bit too seriously.

...would seem, to me, to denote their feeling that the article was meant as a comedic expression and not to be take seriously. The true definition of satire, which you provided for us, may use comedic relief as a vehicle but the intent is to discredit, scorn, ridicule or expose.

But... having said all that... I reiterate... no problem.

[MusicMaster]

I would of never posted the link to offend....

:doh

I have to agree. :)

You guys are smacking the wrong person upside da head!

:smack

that was for the op

[TRFrance]

Thats IT!!!!!!!! Where did you park!!!!!
funny :O)


Digging4Truth...

I hear you.
I just think some of the comments/responses were being a bit harsh on Bro Kent, thats all.

For example:

One person referred to his post as a "bash musicians diatribe"...

and another asked him "Do you hate everybody or just Pentecostals?"

All things considered, I think such comments were a bit much.

I don't think the writer was was "bashing musicians", nor was there any "hate" expressed in the article. Hyperbole to say the least.

As one who has spent several years in choral & music ministries myself, I've seen up close for myself that there can be "personality issues", etc. that arise in music ministry, yet I didn't find the article offensive.

[Digging4Truth]

Digging4Truth...

I hear you.
I just think some of the comments/responses were being a bit harsh on Bro Kent, thats all.

For example:

One person referred to his post as a "bash musicians diatribe"...

and another asked him "Do you hate everybody or just Pentecostals?"

All things considered, I think such comments were a bit much.

I don't think the writer was was "bashing musicians", nor was there any "hate" expressed in the article. Hyperbole to say the least.

As one who has spent several years in choral & music ministries myself, I've seen up close for myself that there can be "personality issues", etc. that arise in music ministry, yet I didn't find the article offensive.

Yes sir (I assume sir)

Understood...

No problem at all.

Blessings,
D4T

[Monkeyman]

To Rkent & Tr, I hope you don't think I have anything against you, I just wanted to offer another side to that story, and to be honest, I have seen music devils, just not where I am currently leading. We cool? I do think musician bashing does occur, it doesn't just fall on the UC side either.

[Digging4Truth]

You guys are smacking the wrong person upside da head!

:smack

that was for the op

Oh... Okay...

My apologies for any inadvertent erroneous smacking of incorrect heads. :)

[TRFrance]

To Rkent & Tr, I hope you don't think I have anything against you, I just wanted to offer another side to that story, and to be honest, I have seen music devils, just not where I am currently leading. We cool? I do think musician bashing does occur, it doesn't just fall on the UC side either.

Oh yeah. I got thick skin, baby.

Like a Rhino!!
http://www.rhinotrading.com/images/B_Rhino_Front.jpg

[MissBrattified]

Hmmm...in my experience, the music team or worship team is often the most spiritual group in the church. They are expected to pray, fast, worship and provide anointed ministry when no one else does!

I do think there was one interesting point in the blog...that musicians have a talent that allows them to connect with the spiritual without pursuing the Almighty--(something like that)--Okay, I don't agree. We are emotional creatures, and our talent helps us get into touch with our EMOTIONS (and others' emotions), but we can't get into touch with God without actually pursuing Him. Everyone's on equal footing when it comes to getting close to Him.

Spirituality is sometimes confused with emotionalism. There's nothing wrong with emotions, and expressing them, and having an emotional response to the Spirit of God, BUT sometimes we just have an emotional response to music and that is seen as being "spiritual." Well, I've cried when watching movies so does that mean I'm in touch with the Spirit? Of course not.

What am I trying to say? Oh yeah. Carnal musicians can still get in touch with their emotions and pull on our heartstrings, but that doesn't mean their "talent" gives them a short track to God's presence.

Hey, and for some honesty: Have I ever faked it? Yep. I've gotten up on Sunday mornings when I was having a terrible day, fussed at the kids while we were getting ready, argued with Jeff on the way to church, went overtime in practice and missed the prayer room and then got up sang my heart out--and God still blessed it. So there's another point in there--sometimes people who are up front have to go about their ministry even when they don't feel like it or don't feel particularly spiritual--or when they aren't particularly spiritual. That isn't about being carnal--it's just about life, and doing their jobs in spite of it. That isn't a "music devil." It's L-I-F-E.

[Elizabeth]

That isn't a "music devil." It's L-I-F-E.

I think your last line sums it up pretty well.

[rkentsmith]

God bless all you fine people....

Sorry to have stirred up some.....

Please note the last two lines in the piece....

Blessings

[Monkeyman]

God bless all you fine people....

Sorry to have stirred up some.....

Please note the last two lines in the piece....

BlessingsThe last 2 lines read if that made me mad, I probably have a devil in me...thanks RK, thanks. And then you "bless" me...

[Jehoram]

I would of never posted the link to offend....

Completely clueless?

I don't think so.

[MissBrattified]

God bless all you fine people....

Sorry to have stirred up some.....

Please note the last two lines in the piece....

Blessings

You mean this part?

"If this makes you mad.....

I bet you do you have inside of you one of them.....

Music Devils....."


:)

I disagree. That would be like you insinuating that many nurses have "medicine devils" and then saying "if it makes you mad you probably have one."

That is a manipulative technique which tries to control a person's response, by telling them what their response means before they are allowed to express it, in such a way that they will suppress a natural and reasonable response because you have connected it to a certain definition. Close, but no cigar.

Has anyone ever said something to you like, "IF you love me, you will ________."? Effectively, if you then choose not to do whatever it is they ask, you are proving by their prestated definition that you do not love them (even if that isn't true.) So then you will feel obligated to do whatever it is they have suggested in order to prove that you DO, after all, love them.

So you saying "If you get mad, maybe you have a music devil" doesn't really mean much, except that you are manipulating the response to your own writing in such a way as to prevent objection or argument without causing the objector to look bad.

Pretty crafty.

[TRFrance]

God bless all you fine people....

Sorry to have stirred up some.....

Please note the last two lines in the piece....

Blessings

RKent...

In case you haven't noticed... you're kinda digging the hole deeper.

Maybe its better to quit now, instead of pouring more gas on the fire.

Peace.

[Jehoram]

Kinda gives some insight into a person's thought process doesn't it?

Odd.

[Kutless]

You mean this part?

"If this makes you mad.....

I bet you do you have inside of you one of them.....

Music Devils....."


:)

I disagree. That would be like you insinuating that many nurses have "medicine devils" and then saying "if it makes you mad you probably have one."

That is a manipulative technique which tries to control a person's response, by telling them what their response means before they are allowed to express it, in such a way that they will suppress a natural and reasonable response because you have connected it to a certain definition. Close, but no cigar.

Has anyone ever said something to you like, "IF you love me, you will ________."? Effectively, if you then choose not to do whatever it is they ask, you are proving by their prestated definition that you do not love them (even if that isn't true.) So then you will feel obligated to do whatever it is they have suggested in order to prove that you DO, after all, love them.

So you saying "If you get mad, maybe you have a music devil" doesn't really mean much, except that you are manipulating the response to your own writing in such a way as to prevent objection or argument without causing the objector to look bad.

Pretty crafty.Sis Bratt...you have some pretty amazing posts....:tiphat

[MissBrattified]

TY. :)

[The Mrs]

RKent...

In case you haven't noticed... you're kinda digging the hole deeper.

Maybe its better to quit now, instead of pouring more gas on the fire.

Peace.

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[freeatlast]

HOW BOUT WE CHANGE SOME WORDS IN YOUR DIATRIBE RKENTSMITH...do you still find it amusing???
__________________________________________________ _______________

I ponder this title....

And ask myself....

What is a Ministry Devil?

Everybody knows that Lucifer got kicked out of Heaven and landed behind the pulpit of the local United Pentecostal Church....

Or maybe in the pastors office....

Seems like if the devil shows up anywhere it will be somewhere in the ministy folks...

I call these things...

Preacher Devils...

However a Preacer Devil is not a person....

It is an attitude....

Those that are the artsy theological types many times possess a moody temperamental side that is difficult for the rest of us to deal with.

And since the intelectual types has talent that helps him into spiritual arenas without having to pursue the Almighty...

Or pray....

Many times their carnal side becomes prevalent....

Also, since we that are not preachers are dependent upon those that are.....

Many times we find ourselves bending rules to accommodate the mood swings of those inclined to preach....

We fail the preacher type by giving in to their moods....

When we do so, the mood of the preacher type learns that he now has power to flaunt and get its way it....

So the next time the mood appears.....

It appears in the form of a Ministry Devil....

Another way a Ministry Devil manifest itself is the fits and temper tantrums it seems to enjoy having while at Sunday night service......

Or even in a church service when something does not go its way.....

And then whammo.....

The Preacher Devil appears....

Have you ever seen the faces a Ministry Devil can make at a good saint....

Or have you seen the hand gestures that go back and forth...

Persons who struggle with the Preacher Devil Syndrome are quick to pout and threaten to leave the church......

Or purposely drag the service late droning on for hours....

Many times "dressed to the nines" so as to make a statement.....

The statement is....

You can't make it without me....

But the Ministry Devil is so mistaken.......

There is always a replacement....

Usually much better than he himself is.....

Preacher Devils are about a dime a dozen.....

They show up in a board meeting, not wanting to comply with the big picture of church programming....

Preacher Devils show up screaming sermons that make more racket than any single church can contain....

Preacher Devils show up in sound system wanting the amp so loud....

And want to get more monitor right in the middle of prayer request....

Preacher Devils show up and never are satisfied with Keyboardist. They buy sermons from JustpreachIt.com, bought and paid for with the offerings of the pitiful masses that he must condescend to serve.....

Ministry Devils show up in preachers who do not want to pray or work, but sure want a microphone....



YOU GET THE IDEA NOW ??? I’ll quit changing your words here Kent

Music Devils show up in praise teams ......

Music Devils never seem to want to do anything but be musical....

Never would one consider doing anything else in the church but music.....

Swab a toilet.....NO

Pick up a visitor.....NO

Show up at family prayer......maybe yes....maybe no.....

But throw a fit if something or someone crosses their whim in any way....YES

I've dealt with many Music Devils over the years....

Ironically, the musical person who struggles with a Music Devil is most times a most wonderful person....

He just has the glaring weakness of a Music Devil....

How many Music Devils have you seen fill out a tithe envelope?

Have you ever seen the musician who struggles with a Music Devil stroll into church late and then have the gall to meander up to the stage and assume their rightful position of power at the keyboard or organ?

The same cat has disdained to pray and now he and his Music Devil have the audicity to think that the anointing of the Holy Ghost is going to flow through them....

I don't think so.....

It ought not be done so in Israel......

Do you know anyone who struggles with a Music Devil?

Have you ever seen a Music Devil at your church?

Do you have a Music Devil?

If this makes you mad.....

I bet you do you have inside of you one of them.....

Music Devils.....

[Jehoram]

Oops.

[Ferd]

I think the soundmen are the real music devils.

[Brother Price]

Music devils. More devils behind the pulpit than behind the piano. (sarcasm)

[Michael Phelps]

I have shared this with many ministry friends and always enjoy the chuckle shared when somebody else realizes they are not the only ones who struggle with such things. This is also posted currently on Full Proof Team Blog. Read more... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

Maybe musicians just need a Healer......

[Tina]

Maybe musicians just need a Healer......



:toofunny

[rkentsmith]

HOW BOUT WE CHANGE SOME WORDS IN YOUR DIATRIBE RKENTSMITH...do you still find it amusing???
__________________________________________________ _______________

I ponder this title....

And ask myself....

What is a Ministry Devil?

Everybody knows that Lucifer got kicked out of Heaven and landed behind the pulpit of the local United Pentecostal Church....

Or maybe in the pastors office....

Seems like if the devil shows up anywhere it will be somewhere in the ministy folks...

I call these things...

Preacher Devils...

However a Preacer Devil is not a person....

It is an attitude....

Those that are the artsy theological types many times possess a moody temperamental side that is difficult for the rest of us to deal with.

And since the intelectual types has talent that helps him into spiritual arenas without having to pursue the Almighty...

Or pray....

Many times their carnal side becomes prevalent....

Also, since we that are not preachers are dependent upon those that are.....

Many times we find ourselves bending rules to accommodate the mood swings of those inclined to preach....

We fail the preacher type by giving in to their moods....

When we do so, the mood of the preacher type learns that he now has power to flaunt and get its way it....

So the next time the mood appears.....

It appears in the form of a Ministry Devil....

Another way a Ministry Devil manifest itself is the fits and temper tantrums it seems to enjoy having while at Sunday night service......

Or even in a church service when something does not go its way.....

And then whammo.....

The Preacher Devil appears....

Have you ever seen the faces a Ministry Devil can make at a good saint....

Or have you seen the hand gestures that go back and forth...

Persons who struggle with the Preacher Devil Syndrome are quick to pout and threaten to leave the church......

Or purposely drag the service late droning on for hours....

Many times "dressed to the nines" so as to make a statement.....

The statement is....

You can't make it without me....

But the Ministry Devil is so mistaken.......

There is always a replacement....

Usually much better than he himself is.....

Preacher Devils are about a dime a dozen.....

They show up in a board meeting, not wanting to comply with the big picture of church programming....

Preacher Devils show up screaming sermons that make more racket than any single church can contain....

Preacher Devils show up in sound system wanting the amp so loud....

And want to get more monitor right in the middle of prayer request....

Preacher Devils show up and never are satisfied with Keyboardist. They buy sermons from JustpreachIt.com, bought and paid for with the offerings of the pitiful masses that he must condescend to serve.....

Ministry Devils show up in preachers who do not want to pray or work, but sure want a microphone....



YOU GET THE IDEA NOW ??? I’ll quit changing your words here Kent

Music Devils show up in praise teams ......

Music Devils never seem to want to do anything but be musical....

Never would one consider doing anything else in the church but music.....

Swab a toilet.....NO

Pick up a visitor.....NO

Show up at family prayer......maybe yes....maybe no.....

But throw a fit if something or someone crosses their whim in any way....YES

I've dealt with many Music Devils over the years....

Ironically, the musical person who struggles with a Music Devil is most times a most wonderful person....

He just has the glaring weakness of a Music Devil....

How many Music Devils have you seen fill out a tithe envelope?

Have you ever seen the musician who struggles with a Music Devil stroll into church late and then have the gall to meander up to the stage and assume their rightful position of power at the keyboard or organ?

The same cat has disdained to pray and now he and his Music Devil have the audicity to think that the anointing of the Holy Ghost is going to flow through them....

I don't think so.....

It ought not be done so in Israel......

Do you know anyone who struggles with a Music Devil?

Have you ever seen a Music Devil at your church?

Do you have a Music Devil?

If this makes you mad.....

I bet you do you have inside of you one of them.....

Music Devils.....

Funny....

:offkey:rockband

[rkentsmith]

You people crack me up....

This piece was not about personalities....

Rather about folks who choose to set aside submission to God for their personal agenda...

I think the reword thing was hilarious....

Whatever happened to submission to God?

Whatever happened to doing it as unto the Lord?

Some of you folks have way lost sight of Godly submission.

This saddens me....

Just as a preacher with sin in his life will transfer that same sin into his church....

What kind of unsubmitted spirits are transferred by music folks who have ceased to submit to the Lord and have given themselves up to another spirit.....

[Michael Phelps]

You people crack me up....

This piece was not about personalities....

Rather about folks who choose to set aside submission to God for their personal agenda...

I think the reword thing was hilarious....

Whatever happened to submission to God?

Whatever happened to doing it as unto the Lord?

Some of you folks have way lost sight of Godly submission.

This saddens me....

Just as a preacher with sin in his life will transfer that same sin into his church....

What kind of unsubmitted spirits are transferred by music folks who have ceased to submit to the Lord and have given themselves up to another spirit.....


Then why not remove the "musician" label, and say "anyone" who ceases to submit?

You started the thread about musicians, and someone astutely pointed out that this same spirit exists even in the ministry, and you cry foul?

I could say this about engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc. It's an age old problem.

Some of the most talented people are the most high maintenance - it's not a new thing, my friend, it's human nature.

[MissBrattified]

You people crack me up....

This piece was not about personalities....

Rather about folks who choose to set aside submission to God for their personal agenda...

It's not quite that simple. You singled a specific type of person. That makes is less about a generic principle (above), and more about bashing a type of person. (see the blog you posted)

Some of you folks have way lost sight of Godly submission.

This saddens me....

Just as a preacher with sin in his life will transfer that same sin into his church....

What kind of unsubmitted spirits are transferred by music folks who have ceased to submit to the Lord and have given themselves up to another spirit.....

See what I mean? "Some of you folks"? You are talking to everyone, including me.

Why would objections to your blog cause you to think we have "unsubmitted spirits?" I submit to God, my husband, my pastor, my mother, and other elders and civil authorities. However, you aren't in the list of folks in charge of me, so objecting to something you say that is way off in left field has nothing at all to do with having an "unsubmitted spirit."

I have already spent time with God today submitting my carnal spirit to Him. It's a great feeling. You should give it a shot. ;)

[jrLA]

Folks....take a break! I think many have way OVERREACTED! People, I am a musician, Choir Leader, Keyboardist, Preacher, Pastor.....

I didn't get offended. I can admit, being in the music ministry that many of these things are true. No, not all the time, but they do exist!

Thou dost protest tooooo much! :girlytantrum:runhills:snapout:pullhair:naughty:ra zz

[Ronzo]

Read more...

No thank you.

[MissBrattified]

Folks....take a break! I think many have way OVERREACTED! People, I am a musician, Choir Leader, Keyboardist, Preacher, Pastor.....

I didn't get offended. I can admit, being in the music ministry that many of these things are true. No, not all the time, but they do exist!

Thou dost protest tooooo much!

*shrug* I just think that musicians and singers get a bad rap because they are expected to be in touch with God 100% of the time, even when the minister or the saints aren't. And then when they aren't, they're labeled as "carnal" or as this blog misrepresented, "music devils."

I'm not offended. I'm just pointing out that the blog isn't accurate in my experience. I know too many great men and women of God who have devoted their entire lives and talents to God's service. That alone is to their credit. I wouldn't call anyone who is using their gift[s] for the glory of God a "devil." Even on a bad day.

[Kutless]

Folks....take a break! I think many have way OVERREACTED! People, I am a musician, Choir Leader, Keyboardist, Preacher, Pastor.....

I didn't get offended. I can admit, being in the music ministry that many of these things are true. No, not all the time, but they do exist!

Thou dost protest tooooo much! :girlytantrum:runhills:snapout:pullhair:naughty:ra zzIt was well aimed.....:cupidlove

[Ronzo]

I have already spent time with God today submitting my carnal spirit to Him.

Sis, thanks for keeping yourself right, even when I know you probably had to bite really hard on your tongue (or fingers... however you look at it) to keep from saying what was probably going through your mind. :girlytantrum

This guy doesn't deserve to get the satisfaction of seeing you lose your cool.

Good job.

[jrLA]

*shrug* I just think that musicians and singers get a bad rap because they are expected to be in touch with God 100% of the time, even when the minister or the saints aren't. And then when they aren't, they're labeled as "carnal" or as this blog misrepresented, "music devils."

I'm not offended. I'm just pointing out that the blog isn't accurate in my experience. I know too many great men and women of God who have devoted their entire lives and talents to God's service. That alone is to their credit. I wouldn't call anyone who is using their gift[s] for the glory of God a "devil." Even on a bad day.

I really do understand your point. But, you have to admit the opposite is also true. There are those in the music ministry who DO fit the description. I don't think Bro. Smith meant it the way that it was taken.

We need to guard our spirits. I don't believe this was an attack, just probably his observation. You know, he has been in ministry for a while and I am sure seen his share of both sides of the coin.

I think we should be careful NOT to be so sensitive. There are 'devils' in all branches of ministry. As a minister (music and pulpit) I can admit that.

[Ferd]

You people crack me up....

This piece was not about personalities....

Rather about folks who choose to set aside submission to God for their personal agenda...

I think the reword thing was hilarious....

Whatever happened to submission to God?

Whatever happened to doing it as unto the Lord?

Some of you folks have way lost sight of Godly submission.

This saddens me....

Just as a preacher with sin in his life will transfer that same sin into his church....

What kind of unsubmitted spirits are transferred by music folks who have ceased to submit to the Lord and have given themselves up to another spirit.....

i found nothing wrong with it.

not even after DA told me how to think about it.

[NW Pastor]

I have shared this with many ministry friends and always enjoy the chuckle shared when somebody else realizes they are not the only ones who struggle with such things. This is also posted currently on Full Proof Team Blog. Read more... www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

I have seen spoiled and moody children who throw tantrums and fits whenever it pleases them. They are an embarrassment to all who know them and bring reproach to an otherwise stellar family name. Who is at fault?

Why, its the parents, of course. The allow the behaviour. They don't have what it takes to discipline their little darling with the proper proportion of firmness and love.

Music Devils, when they exist, are nurtured in an environment of permissiveness by spiritual leadership. The fact is, preachers have become dependent upon talented musicians to do the "heavy lifting" for them during services. The music devils usually reside in churches that promote first and disciple later.

Maybe we should not exalt those not spiritually ready to handle the pressure cooker life of a "local celebrity"? We would not do that for preachers.

The sooner pastors promote committed christians who are gifted to positions of ministry instead of promoting the gifted who profess christianity, the quicker the music devils will be cast out of the church.

The buck stops with the pastor.

[RandyWayne]

I'm really surprised at some of the responses. While I've already mentioned I don't particularly agree with the term "music devil", I did see the "personality profile" in the article as it relates to many creative minded people, not just musicians. MANY creative people are more prone to emotions and mood swings. That is all I took from the blog.

[NW Pastor]

I'm really surprised at some of the responses. While I've already mentioned I don't particularly agree with the term "music devil", I did see the "personality profile" in the article as it relates to many creative minded people, not just musicians. MANY creative people are more prone to emotions and mood swings. That is all I took from the blog.

That was not my take. We see many of these things in "the ministry" also and even worse, but we don't see too many articles on "Preacher Devils".

[TRFrance]

Folks....take a break! I think many have way OVERREACTED! People, I am a musician, Choir Leader, Keyboardist, Preacher, Pastor.....

I didn't get offended. I can admit, being in the music ministry that many of these things are true. No, not all the time, but they do exist!

Thou dost protest tooooo much!

Oh My Goodness!!
(the heavens open... angels singing...)

A voice of reason in the wilderness! (thank you Lord)

[Kutless]

Oh My Goodness!!
(the heavens open... angels singing...)

A voice of reason in the wilderness! (thank you Lord)I guess you would have reacted similarly to an thread concerning the ministry devil? Just asking.

[Felicity]

There are devils everywhere. Behind pulpits. In the prayer rooms. Leading worship. Chairing boards and committees. Teaching SS.

*sigh*

[rkentsmith]

I have seen spoiled and moody children who throw tantrums and fits whenever it pleases them. They are an embarrassment to all who know them and bring reproach to an otherwise stellar family name. Who is at fault?

Why, its the parents, of course. The allow the behaviour. They don't have what it takes to discipline their little darling with the proper proportion of firmness and love.

Music Devils, when they exist, are nurtured in an environment of permissiveness by spiritual leadership. The fact is, preachers have become dependent upon talented musicians to do the "heavy lifting" for them during services. The music devils usually reside in churches that promote first and disciple later.

Maybe we should not exalt those not spiritually ready to handle the pressure cooker life of a "local celebrity"? We would not do that for preachers.

The sooner pastors promote committed christians who are gifted to positions of ministry instead of promoting the gifted who profess christianity, the quicker the music devils will be cast out of the church.

The buck stops with the pastor.

Bingo my brother....

Weak pastors have fostered and enabled the behavior....

There are way too many weak preachers out there.......

[TRFrance]

That was not my take. We see many of these things in "the ministry" also and even worse, but we don't see too many articles on "Preacher Devils".

Regardless... the article was not about musicians in general, but a certain kind of musician (one who is unsubmitted and unconsecrated) that we all know exists in most of our churches.

Yes, one could also come up with a similar article on that "certain kind" of evangelist, Sunday School teacher, etc. but that was not what this article was about. This particular article dealt with that phenomenon among musicians. Plain and simple. (So is the writer now obligated to write similar articles on preacher devils, youth department devils, Sunday School devils, etc, just to "even things out" so no one is offended? Of course not.)

Its interesting to me that some of the same folks who, too often, don't show that much delicacy when it comes to trampling on other people's sensibilities on this forum, are now up-in-arms and highly offended about a simple article which was not bashing church musicians as a whole.

Selective indignation is what I'd call that.

[NW Pastor]

Bingo my brother....

Weak pastors have fostered and enabled the behavior....

There are way too many weak preachers out there.......

In my experience, this is not a "liberal" or "conservative" issue. Many very conservative churches have a very high level of tolerance for abberant behavior from front line musicians and singers, while many moderate or liberal churches demand a much more uniform level of conformity with the congregation. And vice-versa.

It is indeed a pastoral issue.

I would like to add, however, that among us labor men and women of excellent spirit who minister to us with music each week. I was mentored by one such, and will forever by grateful to him for his godly example of daily sacrifice and devotion to both his God and his music ministry.

There remains greatness among us. We should celebrate it!

[rkentsmith]

Good and faithful are to be applauded....

Bad behaviour should never be rewarded....

Blessings

[TRFrance]

I guess you would have reacted similarly to an thread concerning the ministry devil? Just asking.
In a nutshell , yes I would.

If the article was referring to all ministers, I would take an issue with it, but if it dealt with behavior among certain ministers, I would not have an issue with it.

... just the same way I don't have an issue with this article, since it was not dealing with all musicians, but with real issues concerning "certain kinds" of musicians.

As someone who has spent several years involved in praise/music ministry, I find there is a core of truth in what the article says, and thus I am not offended by it. Neither would I have an issue with a similar article concerning preaching ministry, Sunday School ministry, youth ministry, with which I have also been involved, as long as the article dealt with "real" issues, and was limited in scope and not painting all involved in such ministries with a broad brush.

[Felicity]

In my experience, this is not a "liberal" or "conservative" issue. Many very conservative churches have a very high level of tolerance for abberant behavior from front line musicians and singers, while many moderate or liberal churches demand a much more uniform level of conformity with the congregation. And vice-versa.

It is indeed a pastoral issue.

I would like to add, however, that among us labor men and women of excellent spirit who minister to us with music each week. I was mentored by one such, and will forever by grateful to him for his godly example of daily sacrifice and devotion to both his God and his music ministry.

There remains greatness among us. We should celebrate it!Great post!

[BrotherEastman]

After reading the blog, I can see why the writer submitted this. I have seen and even been guilty of this behavior. I have also seen some very close loved ones who have had the "proverbial" music devil. I can see why some folks have taken this personally, but I have noticed this behavior from me. (yeah, brother eastman hasn't been perfect, so shoot me) This thread brought back memories of how I used to be, so I understand those of you who are sensative about it as well. I personally have found alot of truth to the blog.

[rkentsmith]

After reading the blog, I can see why the writer submitted this. I have seen and even been guilty of this behavior. I have also seen some very close loved ones who have had the "proverbial" music devil. I can see why some folks have taken this personally, but I have noticed this behavior from me. (yeah, brother eastman hasn't been perfect, so shoot me) This thread brought back memories of how I used to be, so I understand those of you who are sensative about it as well. I personally have found alot of truth to the blog.

Thank God For The Blood

Page 369!!!

[MissBrattified]

*sigh* Maybe I'm just tired of musicians being picked on in this area. Of course there are carnal people who are in leadership, ministerial or music, either one.

[BrotherEastman]

After reading the blog, I can see why the writer submitted this. I have seen and even been guilty of this behavior. I have also seen some very close loved ones who have had the "proverbial" music devil. I can see why some folks have taken this personally, but I have noticed this behavior from me. (yeah, brother eastman hasn't been perfect, so shoot me) This thread brought back memories of how I used to be, so I understand those of you who are sensative about it as well. I personally have found alot of truth to the blog.
Btw, you all didn't know that I could sing did ya?

[BrotherEastman]

Thank God For The Blood

Page 369!!!
One of my favorite songs!

[BrotherEastman]

*sigh* Maybe I'm just tired of musicians being picked on in this area. Of course there are carnal people who are in leadership, ministerial or music, either one.
There is truth to that Abi.

[NW Pastor]

Regardless... the article was not about musicians in general, but a certain kind of musician (one who is unsubmitted and unconsecrated) that we all know exists in most of our churches.

Yes, one could also come up with a similar article on that "certain kind" of evangelist, Sunday School teacher, etc. but that was not what this article was about. This particular article dealt with that phenomenon among musicians. Plain and simple. (So is the writer now obligated to write similar articles on preacher devils, youth department devils, Sunday School devils, etc, just to "even things out" so no one is offended? Of course not.)

Its interesting to me that some of the same folks who, too often, don't show that much delicacy when it comes to trampling on other people's sensibilities on this forum, are now up-in-arms and highly offended about a simple article which was not bashing church musicians as a whole.

Selective indignation is what I'd call that.

Yes, but the nature of the article, unless I inferred incorrectly, was that this is an epidemic spread uniformly throughout our churches.

Musicians are often easy targets because they are highly visible and often flamboyant and outspoken. This goes with the territory. I find the constant barrage against "those musicians" disquieting. This type of stereotyping is seldom published regarding other ministries. And it could be. The lying (exaggerating) evangelist, the controlling preacher, the boring Sunday School teacher, the Youth Pastor because he is too inexperienced to be a real pastor, etc...

But, no. We see a pleathora of musician bashing stuff. No wonder some of them rebel! "As your faith is, so be it unto you."

We could dwell on the weakening of pastoral oversight over one segement of his flock, the musicians, while tightening the grip on the rest. I have seen much confusion result from this conflicting postion.

[Ferd]

After reading the blog, I can see why the writer submitted this. I have seen and even been guilty of this behavior. I have also seen some very close loved ones who have had the "proverbial" music devil. I can see why some folks have taken this personally, but I have noticed this behavior from me. (yeah, brother eastman hasn't been perfect, so shoot me) This thread brought back memories of how I used to be, so I understand those of you who are sensative about it as well. I personally have found alot of truth to the blog.

Easty, you are alll right my friend.

[Rev]

Thank God For The Blood

Page 369!!!

There you are doing your thing :stirpot :stirpot :toofunny :toofunny

[tv1a]

If a church has this much problem with the music, my guess is the pastor is the problem, for letting the problem get that far.

[BrotherEastman]

Easty, you are alll right my friend.
I feel the same about you ferd, I'm proud that your a friend.

[Joelel]

I think the real devil is the mic.I think the mic anoints alot of preachers.

[OneAccord]

What does it mean to prophesy on musical instruments? I remember A. A. Allen had a recording called Prophetic Music. It was reported that people were healed as the music played. I wonder if people who play so skillfully that they prophesy with their music are ever called Music Devils?

1Ch 25:1 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:
Was David a Music Devil when he played so skilfully on his harp, that evil spirits departed from King Saul?

David tells us again and again to praise God with musical instuments. Including HIGH sounding cymbals.

Musicians give of their time and talents to enhance the worship, to bring a spirit of praise and worship. They go largely unnoticed and under appreciated. Our services would suffer without them.

[RandyWayne]

That was not my take. We see many of these things in "the ministry" also and even worse, but we don't see too many articles on "Preacher Devils".

That is a good point. Want me to write one? LOL

[Sweet Pea]

I think the soundmen are the real music devils.

AMEN!!!!!!! :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

[Praxeas]

Well, this seems as good a time as any to brag on our music team. They fast, they pray, they rehearse, they don't clamor for the spotlight, but when required they WILL step to the plate, they volunteer for EVERYTHING else that is going on at the church, they love their peers, they love and respect their elders, they are anointed, they love leaving the platform to pray for people, I guess that is why sometimes we don't need music at the end of a service to be impactful, or set a mood, they already have done that during prayer and in their walk with God...and I ain't speaking of "some" of them....ALLso take your devil comments elsewhere and leave my team alone, where is that beatdown smiley, he he!!!
You guys got a spot light?

[Monkeyman]

You guys got a spot light?3

[rkentsmith]

My friend has written a wonderful blog concerning his struggle with his own personal music devil www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[CC1]

rkentsmith,

I will click on the link and read it when I get a chance. In the meantime the only music devil I know of is Polka music or any kind of music that utilizes an accordian! LOL!!

[Digging4Truth]

My friend has written a wonderful blog concerning his struggle with his own personal music devil www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

Do you, sir, truly believe that there is a "music devil"?

[Amos]

Do you, sir, truly believe that there is a "music devil"?

I believe it is fairly clear that the term is a figure of speech, and not a reference sugesting a literal demonic spirit.

[Digging4Truth]

I believe it is fairly clear that the term is a figure of speech, and not a reference sugesting a literal demonic spirit.

One would would think so.

But I thought it might be good to verify.

You never can tell. :)

[CC1]

Do you, sir, truly believe that there is a "music devil"?


And if there is one does he dress like Porter Waggoner did with wild sequin covered jumpsuits?:happydance

[Digging4Truth]

And if there is one does he dress like Porter Waggoner did with wild sequin covered jumpsuits?:happydance

That may have been a fashion devil there. :)

[Amos]

Most stereotypes develop because there is a grain of truth at the core.

I have known some wonderful, consecrated, humble music types.

I have also seen more than my share of the temperamental, prima donna, slef-absorbed, other kind.

[CC1]

Most stereotypes develop because there is a grain of truth at the core.

I have known some wonderful, consecrated, humble music types.

I have also seen more than my share of the temperamental, prima donna, slef-absorbed, other kind.


Let the church say AMEN!!! I think all creative people by nature are tempermental. Just some more than others.

[Felicity]

Don't fight it. Dismiss it.

[Digging4Truth]

Sometimes problems arise because of the personality design of one side of an issue. Sometimes problems arise because of the failure to understand that peoples brains are wired differently.

This happens in marriages a lot.

One spouse will end up in big fights simply they keep seeing the other through their own set of logistics and fail to make an attempt to see the other sides point of view. They end up judging their very thoughts because they fail to realize that there is a different set of thought processes going on.

A successful marriage comes when the various spouses see, recognize & work with the differences in thinking rather than trying to continual force the square peg of ones thought processes through the round hole of the other spouses thoughts.

Many of the problems that might come from dealing with those of a differing temperament might be avoided if those dealing with them would spend a little effort trying to understand this differing mindset. (You do it in marriage... hopefully)

I am not saying that one should leave issues unaddressed. I am only suggesting that, when dealing with issues, meet them where they are and speak to them in languages they understand.

A little bit of effort can go a long way when dealing with people who were not raised wearing your shoes.

[MissBrattified]

Sis, thanks for keeping yourself right, even when I know you probably had to bite really hard on your tongue (or fingers... however you look at it) to keep from saying what was probably going through your mind. :girlytantrum

This guy doesn't deserve to get the satisfaction of seeing you lose your cool.

Good job.

Thanks. :tissue

[MissBrattified]

Don't fight it. Dismiss it.

Would you dismiss a Sunday School Teacher or an Assistant Pastor for being carnal? I mean, what is it that a musician or singer would do that would require "dismissing?"

I think we would do well to remember that most musicians and singers are volunteers, they don't get paid for what they do, and they are volunteering their service to God--not only for service, but for practice during the week and before church. Often musicians and singers are the most taken for granted and taken advantage of.

"I don't think that musicians and singers, when they are human (as opposed to "spiritual"), are any more human than any other person in the church." Perhaps its just more noticeable since they are up front in the public eye. And of course, that means more is expected of them.

[tv1a]

One must question the effective leadership of a pastor if he allows all the junk mentioned in the blog in his church, let alone in his music department. Chances are the music devils are the only devils running around the church.

The blog is an feeble attempt at deflecting blame for allowing situations to escalate to the point described in the bog.

Would you dismiss a Sunday School Teacher or an Assistant Pastor for being carnal? I mean, what is it that a musician or singer would do that would require "dismissing?"

I think we would do well to remember that most musicians and singers are volunteers, they don't get paid for what they do, and they are volunteering their service to God--not only for service, but for practice during the week and before church. Often musicians and singers are the most taken for granted and taken advantage of.

I don't think that musicians and singers, when they are human (as opposed to "spiritual"), are no more human than any other person in the church. Perhaps its just more noticeable since they are up front in the public eye. And of course, that means more is expected of them.

[rkentsmith]

Bloom where you are planted!

Seems there are many men who gain their greatest significance from the positions they have been asked to fill. Others, have not arrived there yet long for the moment they are the man. Not realizing that before they ever become the man they are already the man. Or lady if genetics require the gender clarification. Anyway, enjoy this little observation.....www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[rgcraig]

Thanks RK -- your website looks great!

Still think you need a smiling picture!

[rkentsmith]

Too many churches and pastors have been held hostage by such.....

[Digging4Truth]

Thanks RK -- your website looks great!

Still think you need a smiling picture!

He may not have one. :)

[MissBrattified]

Too many churches and pastors have been held hostage by such.....

Can you explain what you mean? How would a church or pastor be held hostage--and what is "such"? I'm not understanding how the church or a pastor is somehow helpless against a "music devil." IF a musician or singer is out of line--so badly that they can be termed a "devil"--then why would they still be ministering?

By the way, I totally did not get your friend's blog. He has so many inner struggles with narcissism and who-knows-what-else that he had to sit himself down--and he disrespected his pastor for letting him play when he was being a "fool?" That's a spiritual problem, not a "music" problem. How would the pastor know unless there were obvious outward signs? Was your friend sinning in some way? Did he just have a bad attitude?

I am being a little bit obtuse about this whole thing, because I KNOW there are carnal people everywhere, and I've been one my fair share of the time. But that doesn't make me or them a "devil", and maybe I resent that exaggerated characterization. I am a human being, I have faults like everyone else, and just because I get up to sing a song doesn't mean my faults go away or cease to be visible. Some days I am kind to everyone and easy to work with, and some days I'm stressed out and end up speaking too sharply to the tenors and giving the drummer the evil eye. Does that make me a "devil?" Or "normal?"

Maybe I don't understand this whole thing, because I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're calling a "devil." Is it something you can easily illustrate? Like I said before, I just have a hard time labeling people who donate their time and effort as "devils", even on bad days. And those that do get paid, often don't get paid enough to even make it matter.

And why is talking about a pastor like this okay with you?

"...I despised even moreso the pastors who put up with me.

Nothing is more spineless and pathetic than a supposed "man of God" who doesn't have the backbone to sit a musician down when they're not measuring up."

[rkentsmith]

OK....

Pastor has nice church and congregation....

Pastor finally has some "good music"...

Enter the music devil attitude...

Pastor doesn't want to sit the person down since it would hamper the good worship to go back to the tamberine and spoons....

Music Devil flaunts...

Pastor is held hostage...

The whole church is held hostage....

No matter what pastor does to pacify the music devil things escalate....

Finally the blow up takes place....

Music Devil takes his person and goes down the road....

The first service without the music devil attitude peace and sweetness returns to sanctuary...

Pastor kicks himself for allowing himself to be held hostage.....

[Monkeyman]

OK....

Pastor has nice church and congregation....

Pastor finally has some "good music"...

Enter the music devil attitude...

Pastor doesn't want to sit the person down since it would hamper the good worship to go back to the tamberine and spoons....

Music Devil flaunts...

Pastor is held hostage...

The whole church is held hostage....

No matter what pastor does to pacify the music devil things escalate....

Finally the blow up takes place....

Music Devil takes his person and goes down the road....

The first service without the music devil attitude peace and sweetness returns to sanctuary...

Pastor kicks himself for allowing himself to be held hostage.....Here is the flaw in your logic...this doesn't need to reach the pastor stage. A good music director will recognize the problem and take care of the situation before it effects the church. I don't care if all your left with is a song leader and some dude on a juice harp, if they are prayed up and anointed, that is all that is needed. Seriously.

[Digging4Truth]

Perhaps said pastor should stick with tambourine & spoons. :)

I find this whole conversation to be rather assuming upon people.

There are people with attitude issues in every church, business, club, city park... wherever.

Some of the people happen to play a musical instrument and/or sing.

The musician or singer who gives of himself in the worship services and pours out of himself (oftentimes without any initial response from the congregation and having to push through to a place of freedom of worship) seems to be guilty until proven innocent in this little thread.

I am hopeful that this is not the case but sometimes it sure feels that way.

As has been mentioned here before... I must be missing out on a whole other kind of musician/worship leader etc because those I have had dealings with have been some of the most dedicated, devoted, God loving & selfless people I have known.

But... let the discussion of this fabled "music devil" continue because it certainly is a popular subject with some.

[MissBrattified]

OK....

Pastor has nice church and congregation....

Pastor finally has some "good music"...

Enter the music devil attitude...

Pastor doesn't want to sit the person down since it would hamper the good worship to go back to the tamberine and spoons....

Music Devil flaunts...

Pastor is held hostage...

The whole church is held hostage....

No matter what pastor does to pacify the music devil things escalate....

Finally the blow up takes place....

Music Devil takes his person and goes down the road....

The first service without the music devil attitude peace and sweetness returns to sanctuary...

Pastor kicks himself for allowing himself to be held hostage.....

I wish you'd write a normal paragraph. :coffee2

Okay, so again: What is the "music devil" doing that classifies him as a "devil"? That's the part you're not quantifying very well.

And I agree with MonkeyMan--if there is a musician or singer in the department that is severely out of order, I will speak to them myself. If that doesn't work, then it goes to the pastor. But where is the music director in your scheme of things? Don't they usually handle folks that are out of line?

[rkentsmith]

Here is the flaw in your logic...this doesn't need to reach the pastor stage. A good music director will recognize the problem and take care of the situation before it effects the church. I don't care if all your left with is a song leader and some dude on a juice harp, if they are prayed up and anointed, that is all that is needed. Seriously.

Nice naive logic monkeyman....

I have spoken with hundreds of pastors who have dealt with the same issue...

So many times it is the music leader that is struggling.....

In a perfect world all music directors are prayed up and keep the dept prayed up.....

IMHO....

The world ain't perfect

[Digging4Truth]

Nice naive logic monkeyman....

I have spoken with hundreds of pastors who have dealt with the same issue...

So many times it is the music leader that is struggling.....

In a perfect world all music directors are prayed up and keep the dept prayed up.....

IMHO....

The world ain't perfect

Naive logic?

This is one amazing thread.

I know this much.

Lord... I truly pray that you protect giving and selfless hearts from falling under any leadership that is so convinced of the hearts & souls of those who would give their praise unto your name.

[rkentsmith]

I wish you'd write a normal paragraph. :coffee2

Okay, so again: What is the "music devil" doing that classifies him as a "devil"? That's the part you're not quantifying very well.

And I agree with MonkeyMan--if there is a musician or singer in the department that is severely out of order, I will speak to them myself. If that doesn't work, then it goes to the pastor. But where is the music director in your scheme of things? Don't they usually handle folks that are out of line?


The music devil is not the person but rather the manefest attitude....

The person is not the devil as the piece clearly states....

The attitude of human spirit of the person is "the devil"

The public display of attitude is very much like a devil...

And so many times it is the leader who is doing such....

After all...

Nobody else in the church is as good as he/she

[rkentsmith]

It would appear that, in your opinion, the world is full of a bunch of evil, self serving people (musicians especially of course) and it is up to them to prove to you otherwise if they want be seen as anything more.


No in my world....

Life is good and the music folks have learned to.....

Possess their vessels with sanctification and honor.....

[MissBrattified]

The musician or singer who gives of himself in the worship services and pours out of himself (oftentimes without any initial response from the congregation and having to push through to a place of freedom of worship) seems to be guilty until proven innocent in this little thread.


...because those I have had dealings with have been some of the most dedicated, devoted, God loving & selfless people I have known.

*sigh*

I guess this is why its bugging me so much--I feel the same way.

[rkentsmith]

Naive logic?

This is one amazing thread.

I know this much.

Lord... I truly pray that you protect giving and selfless hearts from falling under any leadership that is so convinced of the hearts & souls of those who would give their praise unto your name.


Sorry to have stirred you up....

Have you read Steve Shuberts struggle with himself I have posted?

[Hoovie]

So... RKS, In your experience a devil spirit more often attaches himself to the music leader rather than the pastor?

[Digging4Truth]

No in my world....

Life is good and the music folks have learned to.....

Possess their vessels with sanctification and honor.....

As in my world as well.

And that came naturally because it was who they were as a person.

[MissBrattified]

Sorry to have stirred you up....

*sigh*

Have you read Steve Shuberts struggle with himself I have posted?

I did. It was pretty disturbing. But not for the reasons he intended it to be. :kickcan

[Digging4Truth]

Sorry to have stirred you up....

Have you read Steve Shuberts struggle with himself I have posted?

LOL...

What makes you think anyone is stirred up?

No sir I have not seen that article... I will have to look it up.

Good old Steve Shubert.

I grew up with Steve. I know him well.

Brother Marlow Shubert received the Holy Ghost in my home church and they attended there until Brother Shubert took the church in Zavalla.

Were these issues caused by his being a musician?

I guess I will have to read it.

Let me see if I can find it.

[rkentsmith]

So... RKS, In your experience a devil spirit more often attaches himself to the music leader rather than the pastor?

I have seen unpraying pastors become selfish and self centered and off the reservation....

They don't last very long.....

Blessings

[rkentsmith]

LOL...

What makes you think anyone is stirred up?

No sir I have not seen that article... I will have to look it up.

Good old Steve Shubert.

I grew up with Steve. I know him well.

Brother Marlow Shubert received the Holy Ghost in my home church and they attended there until Brother Shubert took the church in Zavalla.

Were these issues caused by his being a musician?

I guess I will have to read it.

Let me see if I can find it.

www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[Digging4Truth]

I have seen unpraying pastors become selfish and self centered and off the reservation....

They don't last very long.....

Blessings

Unfortunately I have known a few who lasted FAR too long.

But... I don't call it a "pastor devil"

I realize that this issue has to do with that particular person and is not a propensity of others who happen to hold the same office.

[Monkeyman]

No in my world....

Life is good and the music folks have learned to.....

Possess their vessels with sanctification and honor.....Your world...there you have it. Please don't call me naive, I have been involved with music ministry for over 24 years. I guess I have been blessed to not come across what you and your hundreds of preacher friends have experienced, I have seen differently and no one was held hostage. Yes, I have seen problems, they were dealt with just as the preachers, secretarys, janitors, bookkeepers, you know, HUMANS!

[Digging4Truth]

I did. It was pretty disturbing. But not for the reasons he intended it to be. :kickcan

I read it as well and agree with you completely.

If this article speaks of a "music devil" then it would be speaking of the issue of how our churches are sometimes so keyed to the juke and the jive that music can move us when there is nothing there.

A pastor once preached a sermon and rightfully said "we know how to preach. We can make 'em laugh and make 'em cry. We have musical talent that can whip them up into a frenzy. We're so good we don't even need God anymore"

He made the statement in pointing out that we so professionally know how to have church that we could do it on our own and might not even notice the difference.

He had a cordless mic. He stepped out the side door as he said "God could completely leave our services (He stepped out and shut the door) and we wouldn't even notice.

I think Steve was affected by seeing that very thing in action. I have seen it myself. But that is a church issue... not a musician issue.

You know why?

Because when church time starts you gotta jump. When the clock hits that right time you better perform.

You have to be able to "do it" at least 3 times a week and on cue.

What you started out giving out of love & devotion can, if you are in that type of church, become rote.

That isn't a "music devil" as pertains to musicians. That is a spirit of a church (which is generally set by the demands of the pastor) that wants to see this monkey dance when they put in a coin.

That is a church wide problem and the musicians are often the victims... not th perpetrators.

[rkentsmith]

Ah yes....

The music folks are the victims.....

[Digging4Truth]

Ah yes....

The music folks are the victims.....

You are an interesting fellow brother.

A conversation cannot be had with one who does not know how to have a conversation.

It is not an acceptable practice of productive discussion to choose one line from ones post and then push that one line to its most far flung extreme and then take that far flung extreme of that one line and make a indirect statement about that extreme.

That isn't discussion. That is dismissing the entirety of a post and then making off the cuff commentary on what the previous post did not even say.

This is what we do when we really have nothing to add to the discussion but wish to cast some shadow of discredit on a post nonetheless.

[Ferd]

Ah yes....

The music folks are the victims.....

yes, but do they need a healing....

[The Mrs]

He may not have one. :)

Sure he does!!! :D

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/_TheMrs_/NFCFpeeps/RKentSmith3.jpg










(Sorry Bro. Smith...something just comes over me and I just can't seem to stop myself!) :gaga

[Digging4Truth]

Sure he does!!! :D

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/_TheMrs_/NFCFpeeps/RKentSmith3.jpg

(Sorry Bro. Smith...something just comes over me and I just can't seem to stop myself!) :gaga

LOL...

GOOD JOB!

[The Mrs]

I wonder if he smiled after this???

http://bp2.blogger.com/_VS9cwv9dkqY/R7CtRk1KonI/AAAAAAAAAHs/XY_vUC-KWE8/S220/smooch

HubbaHubba!!! WooWoo!!! :kiss


:heeheehee




btw...nice article Bro. Smith! :thumbsup

[jrLA]

Wow...Some folks just need a good enema to relieve all of that pent up pressure. I have read some posts from some obviously constipated folks!

:party

:laffatu

:tantrum

[Ferd]

Wow...Some folks just need a good enema to relieve all of that pent up pressure. I have read some posts from some obviously constipated folks!

:party

:laffatu

:tantrum

LOL! you been watching Benny Hinns wife again???

[jrLA]

LOL! you been watching Benny Hinns wife again???

Ha! Ha! :ursofunny

Some people just need to relax! :gaga

[jrLA]

I have been shocked at how some folks reacted to this thread...just goes to show you.....Well, I will not got there! LOL:reaction

[Tina]

Sure he does!!! :D

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/_TheMrs_/NFCFpeeps/RKentSmith3.jpg










(Sorry Bro. Smith...something just comes over me and I just can't seem to stop myself!) :gaga


The devil made her do it........ :toofunny

[Arphaxad]

There are devils everywhere. Behind pulpits. In the prayer rooms. Leading worship. Chairing boards and committees. Teaching SS.

*sigh*

and on apostolic forums, hehehe


ARPH :doggyrun

[MissBrattified]

Wow...Some folks just need a good enema to relieve all of that pent up pressure. I have read some posts from some obviously constipated folks!

:party

:laffatu

:tantrum

Oh, please. You were more constipated over timlan calling you "son" than anyone on this thread has been about "music devils!" :ursofunny



:gaga






:runhills

[rgcraig]

From the article -- now that is just sad. Here's a man that admits it's just emotion sometimes and that he controlled it.

"I was the piano player in a service one night several years ago; we were singing some old Pentecostal worship chorus..."He Set Me Free" or something similar...people were going nuts. At one particular place in the chorus, I would do one of my little Jerry Lee "Killer" runs, and the congregation would "worship" even more frantically. I watched with complete detachment (I wasn't feeling a thing) as "my" music controlled the temperature of the congregation. Almost like a scientist in a lab out to prove a theory, I went into a very passive mode of playing for about two passes of the chorus...the worship toned down, the shouters quit shouting, the jumpers quit jumping...and then, at the appropriate time, WHAM! I did my little "Goodness gracious, great balls 'o' fire!" run and hit the keyboard wide open...The place went absolutely berserk again."

[Elizabeth]

From the article -- now that is just sad. Here's a man that admits it's just emotion sometimes and that he controlled it.

"I was the piano player in a service one night several years ago; we were singing some old Pentecostal worship chorus..."He Set Me Free" or something similar...people were going nuts. At one particular place in the chorus, I would do one of my little Jerry Lee "Killer" runs, and the congregation would "worship" even more frantically. I watched with complete detachment (I wasn't feeling a thing) as "my" music controlled the temperature of the congregation. Almost like a scientist in a lab out to prove a theory, I went into a very passive mode of playing for about two passes of the chorus...the worship toned down, the shouters quit shouting, the jumpers quit jumping...and then, at the appropriate time, WHAM! I did my little "Goodness gracious, great balls 'o' fire!" run and hit the keyboard wide open...The place went absolutely berserk again."

So is it a lack of discernment on our part as Pentecostals to know the difference between emotionalism and a souviern move of God?

I think I have fallen into the same trap as thos folks did a number of years ago--but I wouldnt call it a "music devil"(not that you are Renda)

[Pressing-On]

From the article -- now that is just sad. Here's a man that admits it's just emotion sometimes and that he controlled it.

"I was the piano player in a service one night several years ago; we were singing some old Pentecostal worship chorus..."He Set Me Free" or something similar...people were going nuts. At one particular place in the chorus, I would do one of my little Jerry Lee "Killer" runs, and the congregation would "worship" even more frantically. I watched with complete detachment (I wasn't feeling a thing) as "my" music controlled the temperature of the congregation. Almost like a scientist in a lab out to prove a theory, I went into a very passive mode of playing for about two passes of the chorus...the worship toned down, the shouters quit shouting, the jumpers quit jumping...and then, at the appropriate time, WHAM! I did my little "Goodness gracious, great balls 'o' fire!" run and hit the keyboard wide open...The place went absolutely berserk again."

Sad, but oh so true. When you are acting you can make people really cry. I've done that. Cry over a plot that is not even real. (lol) You can get people emotionally into what you are saying, playing, doing. People are emotional.

I think we forget what accolades we place on talented people. You can be at a party and if a doctor is present, people gravitate and think he/she has all the answers. People do that with teachers.

Musicians - well - how cool is that? - we put them up on a pedastal.

Hollywood actors/actresses. The way they push their agendas as if they were gods/goddesses!

None of this is surprising. We are always looking for a "king" to crown. It's just human nature, IMO.

The person receiving that crown? He/she had better be careful when they put it on - it comes with a price.

[MissBrattified]

So is it a lack of discernment on our part as Pentecostals to know the difference between emotionalism and a souviern move of God?

I think I have fallen into the same trap as thos folks did a number of years ago--but I wouldnt call it a "music devil"(not that you are Renda)

The problem is the author assumed that because HE was carnal and looking on in a daze that the rest of the congregation's worship was equally meaningless. It is okay to have an emotional response to God's presence, it is okay to be emotional in our praise to Him, and it is okay to slow down if the tempo doesn't match hanging from the chandeliers--none of those things equate a lack of sincerity or authenticity on the part of those who were worshipping. It only indicated the author's state of mind.

It also indicates arrogance, because while he thought he was controlling the service by speeding up the music or slowing it down, he really was still just facilitating folks' praise in spite of himself, and instead of being an obstacle as he intended, he ended up still helping them be expressive!

I have heard musicians say in the past that they "controlled" the service one way or the other--nonsense! God is in control. There is no way one narcissistic musician or music director can turn an entire church full of sincere worshipers in the wrong direction. The fact that they are observing and attributing it to themselves is only more evidence of their own carnality.

Again, folks' response to the tempo or rhythm of music does NOT negate their worship experience!

Do we really think God is so small that He will look away from sincere worship because the keyboardist is playing around with different rhythms and riffs and is in total disconnect? No, He'll probably just ignore the keyboardist and bless everyone else!

[MissBrattified]

Sad, but oh so true. When you are acting you can make people really cry. I've done that. Cry over a plot that is not even real. (lol) You can get people emotionally into what you are saying, playing, doing. People are emotional.

But while YOU are acting--their response is REAL. Which is my point: A musician can "control" certain aspects of the worship, such as how quickly folks are moving to the rhythm--but they cannot control hearts and minds and sincerity and honest emotional response or connection. Nor can a musician control the moving of the Spirit. Sorry. Not possible.

[Pressing-On]

But while YOU are acting--their response is REAL. Which is my point: A musician can "control" certain aspects of the worship, such as how quickly folks are moving to the rhythm--but they cannot control hearts and minds and sincerity and honest emotional response or connection. Nor can a musician control the moving of the Spirit. Sorry. Not possible.
God will always respond to anyone that is sincere in reaching out to Him. That doesn't take away from the fact that a musician or a pastor can be in control.

God will override ignorance and reach for a heart that calls out to Him.

[MissBrattified]

God will always respond to anyone that is sincere in reaching out to Him. That doesn't take away from the fact that a musician or a pastor can be in control.

God will override ignorance and reach for a heart that calls out to Him.

I think that a musician or pastor can be in control of logistics, but they cannot actually control the congregation's sincerity in worship or praise, which seemed to be what the blog author implied--that maybe since the congregation responded to his different intonations, that they were as insincere as he was--and that's the part I'm not buying.

[Pressing-On]

I think that a musician or pastor can be in control of logistics, but they cannot actually control the congregation's sincerity in worship or praise, which seemed to be what the blog author implied--that maybe since the congregation responded to his different intonations, that they were as insincere as he was--and that's the part I'm not buying.
There's a fine line between sincerity and emotionalism. JMHO.

I believe you've heard preachers say they know the "candy stick" that will bring the house down. Certain terms and voice inflections - it does make the people seem insincere and even ignorant to the viewer/controller/manipulator.

[MissBrattified]

There's a fine line between sincerity and emotionalism. JMHO.

I believe you've heard preachers say they know the "candy stick" that will bring the house down. Certain terms and voice inflections - it does make the people seem insincere and even ignorant to the viewer/controller/manipulator.

Emotions can be evidence of sincerity. I tend to doubt sincerity if there is no emotion attached to it. When my husband says "I love you", or "I'm sorry", I expect there to be some emotion attached, and which one IS attached determines whether or not I believe him. :) Humans are emotional creatures. Show me an emotionless worshiper and I will show you someone who isn't very passionate about God. If God doesn't cause some kind of response--ANY kind of response--then...well....:) That's just how I see it. I do concede that we all respond differently, but there should be a response to God. Furthermore, I don't place singing, dancing and praising God for the sheer joy of it in the category of "emotionalism", and many do. I strongly disagree with that, at least represented in a negative light.

As for the congregation--I think I would go with "naive", because those of us who have been around Pentecost all our lives can see through the "candy stick" in two seconds--but a new convert isn't necessarily going to sense that--they're just going to respond to someone else who is or seems to be excited about the Holy Ghost or Jesus' Name or the Alpha & Omega, Our Deliverer...etc.

I have seen my children genuinely respond to things I would never be moved by--so I guess I'm not so ready to label the congregation as insincere just because the leader is insincere or a closet narcissist. Maybe ignorance is bliss?

[jrLA]

Oh, please. You were more constipated over timlan calling you "son" than anyone on this thread has been about "music devils!" :ursofunny



:gaga



:runhills



Ummm...no! You have made another mistake in your judging here! I didn't like the tone that Timlan took on that thread....I still don't. Don't rehash that junk!


I didn't name you Miss B., but looks like that must have hit a nerve there! lol


Got some exlax...sounds like you may need a dose! lol :reaction

[Whole Hearted]

From the article -- now that is just sad. Here's a man that admits it's just emotion sometimes and that he controlled it.

"I was the piano player in a service one night several years ago; we were singing some old Pentecostal worship chorus..."He Set Me Free" or something similar...people were going nuts. At one particular place in the chorus, I would do one of my little Jerry Lee "Killer" runs, and the congregation would "worship" even more frantically. I watched with complete detachment (I wasn't feeling a thing) as "my" music controlled the temperature of the congregation. Almost like a scientist in a lab out to prove a theory, I went into a very passive mode of playing for about two passes of the chorus...the worship toned down, the shouters quit shouting, the jumpers quit jumping...and then, at the appropriate time, WHAM! I did my little "Goodness gracious, great balls 'o' fire!" run and hit the keyboard wide open...The place went absolutely berserk again."


I play the organ every service and I have watch how people respond. If I want to I can to some extent control the worship service. If I keep building and squealing the organ they will worship harder and louder. If I slow it down and go into what I call the Baptist style they will quieten down. Mu

Music is a great part of our service and it can be a great asset or a hindrance.
Who you have in control of the music is very important.

[MissBrattified]

Ummm...no! You have made another mistake in your judging here! I didn't like the tone that Timlan took on that thread....I still don't. Don't rehash that junk!


I didn't name you Miss B., but looks like that must have hit a nerve there! lol

I named myself that, because I know what I am. :D


Got some exlax...sounds like you may need a dose! lol :reaction

No way! Probiotics are the way to go!!! Naked Juice has a new little juice bottle with probiotics--tastes great--works...quite well. :bliss

[jrLA]

I named myself that, because I know what I am. :D




No way! Probiotics are the way to go!!! Naked Juice has a new little juice bottle with probiotics--tastes great--works...quite well. :bliss

Good response! Really! lol :ursofunny

[Pressing-On]

Emotions can be evidence of sincerity. I tend to doubt sincerity if there is no emotion attached to it. When my husband says "I love you", or "I'm sorry", I expect there to be some emotion attached, and which one IS attached determines whether or not I believe him. :) Humans are emotional creatures. Show me an emotionless worshiper and I will show you someone who isn't very passionate about God. If God doesn't cause some kind of response--ANY kind of response--then...well....:) That's just how I see it. I do concede that we all respond differently, but there should be a response to God. Furthermore, I don't place singing, dancing and praising God for the sheer joy of it in the category of "emotionalism", and many do. I strongly disagree with that, at least represented in a negative light.

As for the congregation--I think I would go with "naive", because those of us who have been around Pentecost all our lives can see through the "candy stick" in two seconds--but a new convert isn't necessarily going to sense that--they're just going to respond to someone else who is or seems to be excited about the Holy Ghost or Jesus' Name or the Alpha & Omega, Our Deliverer...etc.

I have seen my children genuinely respond to things I would never be moved by--so I guess I'm not so ready to label the congregation as insincere just because the leader is insincere or a closet narcissist. Maybe ignorance is bliss?
I agree that "naive" is a much better choice of word than "ignorant".

As to the new converts being the only ones that are not aware of the "candy stick" mentality. You are probably right, BUT......

Let me share the story first. You may remember me telling this.

Brother Billy Cole was preaching at BOTT some years ago. He, in a normal tone, said, "God is doing great things."

The audience does not respond.

He elevates his voice. "GOD IS DOING GREAT THINGS!!!"

Loud clapping and verbal response. He talks a little longer and does the whole thing again, beginning with the normal tone of voice. Same exact response.

He then goes on to say, "Do you see what you did? You did not respond to what I said. You responded to how I said it! Someday we will learn."

I have observed through the years that the congregation, largely, is waiting for instructions on when to respond and how to do that. I think it is unfortunate that this occurs.

So, really, the "candy stick" kinda sweeps over the new converts and grabs the seasoned saint. JMHO.

[Pressing-On]

I play the organ every service and I have watch how people respond. If I want to I can to some extent control the worship service. If I keep building and squealing the organ they will worship harder and louder. If I slow it down and go into what I call the Baptist style they will quieten down. Mu

Music is a great part of our service and it can be a great asset or a hindrance.
Who you have those in control of the music is very important.
Amen!

[MissBrattified]

I agree that "naive" is a much better choice of word than "ignorant".

As to the new converts being the only ones that are not aware of the "candy stick" mentality. You are probably right, BUT......

Let me share the story first. You may remember me telling this.

Brother Billy Cole was preaching at BOTT some years ago. He, in a normal tone, said, "God is doing great things."

The audience does not respond.

He elevates his voice. "GOD IS DOING GREAT THINGS!!!"

Loud clapping and verbal response. He talks a little longer and does the whole thing again, beginning with the normal tone of voice. Same exact response.

He then goes on to say, "Do you see what you did? You did not respond to what I said. You responded to how I said it! Someday we will learn."

I have observed through the years that the congregation, largely, is waiting for instructions on when to respond and how to do that. I think it is unfortunate that this occurs.

So, really, the "candy stick" kinda sweeps over the new converts and grabs the seasoned saint. JMHO.

I do understand what you're saying. :) I think it takes some spiritual maturity to respond just as well to what a soft-spoken missionary or elder minister will say just as well as someone who speaks loudly, charismatically and really grabs your attention. (As opposed to paying attention)

That's largely cultural, too, don't you think? We are media-trained to respond to what is loud, bright, colorful, exciting and *gasp* entertaining! Furthermore, the church culture has (IMO) squelched spontaneous worship in exchange for dictated worship, so even in a highly charged, liberated atmosphere, folks are still trying to do what they are "supposed" to do. I have seen people stop worshiping when the music stopped--not because they wanted to, but because they didn't want to be disruptive or be out of order.

This brings up something else interesting that I just thought of...does it ever seem like music is a "cover" for worship? It seems that sometimes people are too embarrassed to really call out to God and really express themselves, unless there is music or singing loudly assisting them or playing over them so they are sort of unnoticed....hmmmm. Perhaps we have made folks feel so self-conscious about expression and worship that they only time they feel comfortable doing it is when the music is up.

btw, I was at that BOTT. I remember BC doing that!

[Elizabeth]

The problem is the author assumed that because HE was carnal and looking on in a daze that the rest of the congregation's worship was equally meaningless. It is okay to have an emotional response to God's presence, it is okay to be emotional in our praise to Him, and it is okay to slow down if the tempo doesn't match hanging from the chandeliers--none of those things equate a lack of sincerity or authenticity on the part of those who were worshipping. It only indicated the author's state of mind.

It also indicates arrogance, because while he thought he was controlling the service by speeding up the music or slowing it down, he really was still just facilitating folks' praise in spite of himself, and instead of being an obstacle as he intended, he ended up still helping them be expressive!

I have heard musicians say in the past that they "controlled" the service one way or the other--nonsense! God is in control. There is no way one narcissistic musician or music director can turn an entire church full of sincere worshipers in the wrong direction. The fact that they are observing and attributing it to themselves is only more evidence of their own carnality.

Again, folks' response to the tempo or rhythm of music does NOT negate their worship experience!

Do we really think God is so small that He will look away from sincere worship because the keyboardist is playing around with different rhythms and riffs and is in total disconnect? No, He'll probably just ignore the keyboardist and bless everyone else!


I think you have a valid point and I think the author has one as well.

You are right I believe those present during the authors worship service were sincere.

But I do believe that some of reactions we express during a church service are because we have our emotions stirred, this is not a bad thing at all--but is all emotional responses stirred on by the move of the spirit or could some be out of our flesh?

I have been moved to tears hearing the national anthem, is that the spirit of God, I say this as a example.

Our churches have outstanding music, I do believe music is a tool that can be used to open people hearts to being sensitive to God and his word.

But I do believe people can be conditioned to responding to music just like Pavlov's dog--again just an example not calling anyone a dog!

I have sat in worship services that the tone of some parishioners(including myself) praise response was to the beat of the drum! the faster it went the faster we went! Was it worship? I guess so, it just stopped when the drummer stopped.

I know what it is to have bad music, and see no one do anything at all. Then only to have comments made that they didn't like the music-Well isn't God bigger than music? Isn't he worthy of praise regardless of what song or who is singing...believe me it was a real eye opener to see peoples response to God was contingent on whether they liked the song or not. I can't think of anything that would reflect immaturity more than this-

Only later to have a woman come to me later and say how good the music was at so n so's church. She was raptured to the 3rd heaven as the worship leader strung his guitar, with tears running down her face she said 'I told God I want to sing like that' and then she said "God told you will and more".

She came to me with this story..I know it was her emotions that were stirred, and then she announced "God has called me to sing-" well she decided to join the praise team..and guess what, she could not sing---and then became very upset and touchy when someone was asked to sing along with the other praise singers. She ended up leaving church.

I believe we are lead by our emotions that is not a bad thing, we just need to know what the difference is between emotionalism and the spirit--and that my dear is a whole other thread :D

[Elizabeth]

My oh my I hate my computer it took FOREVER to write that-I had to log back in several times and every time I used my backspace it would back up to the previous item I was viewing---FRUSTRATING!

[Pressing-On]

I do understand what you're saying. :) I think it takes some spiritual maturity to respond just as well to what a soft-spoken missionary or elder minister will say just as well as someone who speaks loudly, charismatically and really grabs your attention. (As opposed to paying attention)

That's largely cultural, too, don't you think? We are media-trained to respond to what is loud, bright, colorful, exciting and *gasp* entertaining! Furthermore, the church culture has (IMO) squelched spontaneous worship in exchange for dictated worship, so even in a highly charged, liberated atmosphere, folks are still trying to do what they are "supposed" to do. I have seen people stop worshiping when the music stopped--not because they wanted to, but because they didn't want to be disruptive or be out of order.

This brings up something else interesting that I just thought of...does it ever seem like music is a "cover" for worship? It seems that sometimes people are too embarrassed to really call out to God and really express themselves, unless there is music or singing loudly assisting them or playing over them so they are sort of unnoticed....hmmmm. Perhaps we have made folks feel so self-conscious about expression and worship that they only time they feel comfortable doing it is when the music is up.

btw, I was at that BOTT. I remember BC doing that!
Cool, so you know my story is true! lol

I think it's a shame that we follow the bright lights, so to speak. God is so beautiful in the quiet moments. When you look back at various services you will note the largest and deepest moves of God were during the quiet times, when we allowed Him to flow in and we took our time to embrace Him.

That is a leadership issue, though. However you are trained it will continue to filter down the pike.

Yes, I do think music is sometimes a cover. People are embarrassed to express themselves because they are largely unsure of how they can actually respond or will they be accepted, is the moment right, is it just me, what do I do, should I respond now......?

My husband often says he would rather someone do something wrong then to make people feel afraid to respond at all. You can train someone who may have gotten a bit out of order, but if you put fear in people, it can take years to recover if they ever do.

[Pressing-On]

I think you have a valid point and I think the author has one as well.

You are right I believe those present during the authors worship service were sincere.

But I do believe that some of reactions we express during a church service are because we have our emotions stirred, this is not a bad thing at all--but is all emotional responses stirred on by the move of the spirit or could some be out of our flesh?

I have been moved to tears hearing the national anthem, is that the spirit of God, I say this as a example.

Our churches have outstanding music, I do believe music is a tool that can be used to open people hearts to being sensitive to God and his word.

But I do believe people can be conditioned to responding to music just like Pavlov's dog--again just an example not calling anyone a dog!

I have sat in worship services that the tone of some parishioners(including myself) praise response was to the beat of the drum! the faster it went the faster we went! Was it worship? I guess so, it just stopped when the drummer stopped.

I know what it is to have bad music, and see no one do anything at all. Then only to have comments made that they didn't like the music-Well isn't God bigger than music? Isn't he worthy of praise regardless of what song or who is singing...believe me it was a real eye opener to see peoples response to God was contingent on whether they liked the song or not. I can't think of anything that would reflect immaturity more than this-

Only later to have a woman come to me later and say how good the music was at so n so's church. She was raptured to the 3rd heaven as the worship leader strung his guitar, with tears running down her face she said 'I told God I want to sing like that' and then she said "God told you will and more".

She came to me with this story..I know it was her emotions that were stirred, and then she announced "God has called me to sing-" well she decided to join the praise team..and guess what, she could not sing---and then became very upset and touchy when someone was asked to sing along with the other praise singers. She ended up leaving church.

I believe we are lead by our emotions that is not a bad thing, we just need to know what the difference is between emotionalism and the spirit--and that my dear is a whole other thread :D

Amen, good post, Jeanie! I agree with every word!

[Elizabeth]

Cool, so you know my story is true! lol

I think it's a shame that we follow the bright lights, so to speak. God is so beautiful in the quiet moments. When you look back at various services you will note the largest and deepest moves of God were during the quiet times, when we allowed Him to flow in and we took our time to embrace Him.

That is a leadership issue, though. However you are trained it will continue to filter down the pike.

Yes, I do think music is sometimes a cover. People are embarrassed to express themselves because they are largely unsure of how they can actually respond or will they be accepted, is the moment right, is it just me, what do I do, should I respond now......?

My husband often says he would rather someone do something wrong then to make people feel afraid to respond at all. You can train someone who may have gotten a bit out of order, but if you put fear in people, it can take years to recover if they ever do.
I agree with this, seeing God in the quite moments.

I have seen so many people struggle with this, to them it's too difficult to relate to God on this level.

[MissBrattified]

But I do believe that some of reactions we express during a church service are because we have our emotions stirred, this is not a bad thing at all--but is all emotional responses stirred on by the move of the spirit or could some be out of our flesh?

I would venture that all of our responses are out of our flesh! :D But maybe some of them are carnal? That doesn't make them bad--really--but maybe misguided.

I have been moved to tears hearing the national anthem, is that the spirit of God, I say this as a example.

Right--and I've cried watching movies--it isn't the Spirit moving upon me!

Our churches have outstanding music, I do believe music is a tool that can be used to open people hearts to being sensitive to God and his word.

I think that "breaking people down" (for lack of a better term...lol) is one of the aims of music--it allows them to connect and take down walls in a nonthreatening way. So moving songs, moving dramatic presentations, stirring solos--these things all serve a purpose, even when they can't necessarily be worshiped with. There are some great drama folks out there who can draw the congregation in with something funny or sad, and then once their guard is down, they put in the real point and it falls where it needs to instead of on a hard, protected heart.

But I do believe people can be conditioned to responding to music just like Pavlov's dog--again just an example not calling anyone a dog!

Sure. We are creatures of habit. We tend to take authentic response, and once it has happened several times in a row--we do it just because. It's called a Rut. I know people who treat their prayer time that way--they have to pray an hour, whether they say anything meaningful or not, and sometimes they just fill in the time with "Glory, glory", and watch the clock with one eye until an hour is up! I don't see how that's fruitful! If we get into a rut, or we're doing something out of habit, and its not from our heart, its time to step back and re-evaluate, and maybe rearrange our worship. :)

I have sat in worship services that the tone of some parishioners(including myself) praise response was to the beat of the drum! the faster it went the faster we went! Was it worship? I guess so, it just stopped when the drummer stopped.

I would call it praise. I tend to separate them a little...worship seems to come more from the heart, and "praise" seems to be giving God praise because He deserves it and it feels good to give Him what He wants. Maybe I'm defining them wrong. I'm not too bothered by the "stopping" when the music stops, because most folks would feel that they were out of order if they were to continue worshiping without music, even if they wanted to continue.

I know what it is to have bad music, and see no one do anything at all. Then only to have comments made that they didn't like the music-Well isn't God bigger than music? Isn't he worthy of praise regardless of what song or who is singing...believe me it was a real eye opener to see peoples response to God was contingent on whether they liked the song or not. I can't think of anything that would reflect immaturity more than this-

That IS immature, and some of the best worship services I have been in have been with just Sis. Ewing on the organ at Eastwood or my Dad playing the guitar at our home church, or my oldest sister on the piano singing choruses. I get a bit sick and tired of the bashing towards young people that goes on, though...older folks feel they can't worship with the "new" music, but yet they expect the younger ones to worship with unfamiliar hymns and old songs. There needs to be something for everyone, and most good music directors will try to facilitate the entire congregation--not just one group.

I believe we are lead by our emotions that is not a bad thing, we just need to know what the difference is between emotionalism and the spirit--and that my dear is a whole other thread :D

Sometimes the two are connected or overlapping so its kind of hard to separate it, except within your own heart. You know whether you are responding to God's presence or a great note!

[Fiyahstarter]

Cool, so you know my story is true! lol

I think it's a shame that we follow the bright lights, so to speak. God is so beautiful in the quiet moments. When you look back at various services you will note the largest and deepest moves of God were during the quiet times, when we allowed Him to flow in and we took our time to embrace Him.



Double AMEN that!!

I believe we need more quiet times in the Lord ...

I do not believe we give God enough time in the services. (We have a schedule to keep, you know.)

We need to wait more often... we get too anxious to try to make it happen.

[MissBrattified]

Double AMEN that!!

I believe we need more quiet times in the Lord ...

I do not believe we give God enough time in the services. (We have a schedule to keep, you know.)

We need to wait more often... we get too anxious to try to make it happen.

I completely agree.

There have been days, though, even at home, when I needed to play a little music to get myself into the right frame of mind for prayer. I usually choose "quiet" music for myself. I save the fast, choir stuff for playing full blast when I'm cleaning house or dancing around with the kids. Or dancing through the kitchen looking silly--only to myself and the cats!

[Pressing-On]

I agree with this, seeing God in the quite moments.

I have seen so many people struggle with this, to them it's too difficult to relate to God on this level.
You are so right. But, really, I've been trained through the years that the loud expression is the best - you know - make a joyful noise......?

I've posted this before, but it really made an indelible impression on me forever and I'm sure I will reference it again.

One day, during my regular prayer time, I was struggling and so I began to clap and say, loudly, "I love you Jesus!!!" Lord, that made me more frustrated.

Soooo, I knelt by the bed and simply said, in a quiet voice, "I love you Jesus."

Wellllll, His Spirit flooded that bedroom!!! How easy was that? He just wanted my heart!!!

I didn't have to turn cartwheels or hang from a chandelier to get His attention.

Let me also go on record as saying, "If you come out of the prayer room and you have a shout in your feet - shout your hair down if you want to!" I am not against noise.

I am for, carefully, following after His Spirit. It's takes time and patience. None of us are God. We don't know what people are thinking and needing when they walk through those doors. God is the only one that knows. Why manipulate the people. Why not just take some time and find out what door God wants us to walk through and throw that thing open when we find it and do our Pentecostal business? - in the Holy Ghost!!!

[Pressing-On]

Double AMEN that!!

I believe we need more quiet times in the Lord ...

I do not believe we give God enough time in the services. (We have a schedule to keep, you know.)

We need to wait more often... we get too anxious to try to make it happen.

So true, we don't give Him enough time.

[MissBrattified]

I am for, carefully, following after His Spirit. It's takes time and patience. None of us are God. We don't know what people are thinking and needing when they walk through those doors. God is the only one that knows. Why manipulate the people. Why not just take some time and find out what door God wants us to walk through and throw that thing open when we find and do our Pentecostal business? - in the Holy Ghost!!!

Excellent!!! :bliss I like this--a lot!!!!

[Elizabeth]

I would venture that all of our responses are out of our flesh! :D But maybe some of them are carnal? That doesn't make them bad--really--but maybe misguided. Well perhaps it just semantics--of course our actions unless we are dead are done by our flesh-carnal is a good word.




Sure. We are creatures of habit. We tend to take authentic response, and once it has happened several times in a row--we do it just because. It's called a Rut. I know people who treat their prayer time that way--they have to pray an hour, whether they say anything meaningful or not, and sometimes they just fill in the time with "Glory, glory", and watch the clock with one eye until an hour is up! I don't see how that's fruitful! If we get into a rut, or we're doing something out of habit, and its not from our heart, its time to step back and re-evaluate, and maybe rearrange our worship. :) Good point! I agree.



I would call it praise. I tend to separate them a little...worship seems to come more from the heart, and "praise" seems to be giving God praise because He deserves it and it feels good to give Him what He wants. Maybe I'm defining them wrong. I'm not too bothered by the "stopping" when the music stops, because most folks would feel that they were out of order if they were to continue worshiping without music, even if they wanted to continue. I find this last statement interesting, because I didnt know people thought like that, that if the music ceased they should cease. Perhaps it's just me but sometimes I would continue to 'worship' regardless if the music continued or not.:D
The point that I was making actually mirrored what the author was describing--experiencing the eb and flo intensity of worship being influenced by a beat, or sound.



That IS immature, and some of the best worship services I have been in have been with just Sis. Ewing on the organ at Eastwood or my Dad playing the guitar at our home church, or my oldest sister on the piano singing choruses. I get a bit sick and tired of the bashing to wards young people that goes on, though...older folks feel they can't worship with the "new" music, but yet they expect the younger ones to worship with unfamiliar hymns and old songs. There needs to be something for everyone, and most good music directors will try to facilitate the entire congregation--not just one group. Girl you have no idea what we went through trying to make everyone happy--it was impossible to do. Just as you described the older folks felt left out if we didn't sing a hymnal and the other folks would make faces when we say an old song.


Sometimes the two are connected or overlapping so its kind of hard to separate it, except within your own heart. You know whether you are responding to God's presence or a great note!
Right!

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

it might not be discerning evil but discerning what the spirit is doing at that time-

[Elizabeth]

You are so right. But, really, I've been trained through the years that the loud expression is the best - you know - make a joyful noise......?

I've posted this before, but it really made an indelible impression on me forever and I'm sure I will reference it again.

One day, during my regular prayer time, I was struggling and so I began to clap and say, loudly, "I love you Jesus!!!" Lord, that made me more frustrated.

Soooo, I knelt by the bed and simply said, in a quiet voice, "I love you Jesus."

Wellllll, His Spirit flooded that bedroom!!! How easy was that? He just wanted my heart!!!

I didn't have to turn cartwheels or hang from a chandelier to get His attention.
Let me also go on record as saying, "If you come out of the prayer room and you have a shout in your feet - shout your hair down if you want to!" I am not against noise.

I am for, carefully, following after His Spirit. It's takes time and patience. None of us are God. We don't know what people are thinking and needing when they walk through those doors. God is the only one that knows. Why manipulate the people. Why not just take some time and find out what door God wants us to walk through and throw that thing open when we find and do our Pentecostal business? - in the Holy Ghost!!!
:thumbsup

The cartwheel remark made me laugh!

I am going to edit this remark I made prior-

It's sad that people do not know what you know Pressing, they do not know God like this- in the quite moments.

[Pressing-On]

Excellent!!! :bliss I like this--a lot!!!!
Hallelujah! In the Holy Ghost!!!

:bliss:bliss

[Pressing-On]

:thumbsup

The cartwheel remark made me laugh!

I am going to edit this remark I made prior-

It's sad that people do not know what you know Pressing, they do not know God like this- in the quite moments.

It is sad. Now, listen - I'm just like Saul!! I need music to calm me down - just don't rush me. My mind is usually tearing around at 120 mph. I cannot be rushed.

I had someone actually glare at me because I didn't come to the front and pray with a women that walked up to the altar area. I had nothing I felt to say to her. I felt like it was a personal time she needed alone without interference. We need to be sensitive to His Spirit. Not everyone needs you to lay hands on them. I refuse to be intimated into that. Just preaching!!!!! :bliss

[Fiyahstarter]

I had someone actually glare at me because I didn't come to the front and pray with a women that walked up to the altar area. I had nothing I felt to say to her. I felt like it was a personal time she needed alone without interference. We need to be sensitive to His Spirit. No everyone needs you to lay hands on them. I refuse to be intimated into that. Just preaching!!!!! :bliss

SHINE THE LIGHT LORD!!!! I wish more people discerned this!!!!

People rushing over to pray on others at the altar just because they need to BE DOING SOMETHING ... big turn off. Really keeps people out of the altars!!!

If the Holy Ghost leads, fine. Otherwise, pray for them at your seat... or better yet, maybe pray about yourself once in awhile!!!!

[Pressing-On]

SHINE THE LIGHT LORD!!!! I wish more people discerned this!!!!

People rushing over to pray on others at the altar just because they need to BE DOING SOMETHING ... big turn off. Really keeps people out of the altars!!!

If the Holy Ghost leads, fine. Otherwise, pray for them at your seat... or better yet, maybe pray about yourself once in awhile!!!!

Yes, that will preach!

:bliss

[CC1]

Here are "music devils" in my opinion;

1. Freddie Fender
2. Tiny Tim
3. Kris Kristofferson
4. All Polka Music
5. All heavy metal except a few power ballads
6. Accordian music of any type

[MissBrattified]

Here are "music devils" in my opinion;

1. Freddie Fender
2. Tiny Tim
3. Kris Kristofferson
4. All Polka Music
5. All heavy metal except a few power ballads
6. Accordian music of any type

Yes, I think that sums it up for all of us. :D

[rkentsmith]

Nice thoughts

[tv1a]

Blame the spineless pastor for permitting that junk to go on.

OK....

Pastor has nice church and congregation....

Pastor finally has some "good music"...

Enter the music devil attitude...

Pastor doesn't want to sit the person down since it would hamper the good worship to go back to the tamberine and spoons....

Music Devil flaunts...

Pastor is held hostage...

The whole church is held hostage....

No matter what pastor does to pacify the music devil things escalate....

Finally the blow up takes place....

Music Devil takes his person and goes down the road....

The first service without the music devil attitude peace and sweetness returns to sanctuary...

Pastor kicks himself for allowing himself to be held hostage.....

[rkentsmith]

My friend John Carroll mentioned Ezekiel's four headed creature the other day. I have pondered and reflected upon my own pastorate and offer a few simple thoughts...www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[OneAccord]

You know, I read this and found it insightful. However, I submit one more face, and that as a lamb or dove (as Jesus said). Sometimes, in the midst of the roaring and soaring and plodding, a preacher has to be gentle. But, I guess that is where the MAN comes in. He has to deal with people on a emotional, human level which includes gentleness and tenderness. Very good thought, Pastor.

[RandyWayne]

Excellent article, and I also agree with OneAccord that a 5th face, and probably the most important, is needed.... He called it a lamb or dove. I would call it that of a servant.

[rkentsmith]

You people will have to email Ezekiel and suggest he add another face to creature he saw in his dream.....

[The Mrs]

You people will have to email Ezekiel and suggest he add another face to creature he saw in his dream.....

:lol

[rkentsmith]

Pastor was preaching real good about this being somebody's day and moment....

Enter the Demonic Display....

Little black lady in a housecoat, flipflops, doorag and drunk as a skunk wanders into the sanctuary and begins to run laps....

Then she flops in the floor and does the satanic serpant thing....

The ushers are ready to bounce her out but I say leave her alone and continue to preach that we will not be distracted by demonic presentation.....

When all of the sudden.....

The HG falls on a young man and he jumps and runs to the front.....

He is filled with the HG and delivered from some very dark demonic spirits....

As he is being delivered the Devils Demonic Presentation tries to slither up to him hissing etc....

But to no avail......

The bouncers are now allowed to do what they knew to do and the Demon began cursing and ran from the santuary and out of the church......

It will be interesting to watch the hand of God on the young man who God delivered....

Obviously the devil did not want to let go......

[rkentsmith]

Twasn't a music one either....:party

[simplyme]

Whats the 'satanic serpent' thing, lol?
And just curious, do you mean that when someone runs in the spirit they are being set free of some dark demonic spirits?
Was that young man already baptized in Jesus name, or not?

[ManOfWord]

I want to see the YouTube video!!!! :D

[RandyWayne]

".....He was lookin' for a soul to steal
He was in a bind
'Cause he was way behind
And he was willin' to make a deal"

[Neck]

Pastor was preaching real good about this being somebody's day and moment....

Enter the Demonic Display....

Little black lady in a housecoat, flipflops, doorag and drunk as a skunk wanders into the sanctuary and begins to run laps....

Then she flops in the floor and does the satanic serpant thing....

The ushers are ready to bounce her out but I say leave her alone and continue to preach that we will not be distracted by demonic presentation.....

When all of the sudden.....

The HG falls on a young man and he jumps and runs to the front.....

He is filled with the HG and delivered from some very dark demonic spirits....

As he is being delivered the Devils Demonic Presentation tries to slither up to him hissing etc....

But to no avail......

The bouncers are now allowed to do what they knew to do and the Demon began cursing and ran from the santuary and out of the church......

It will be interesting to watch the hand of God on the young man who God delivered....

Obviously the devil did not want to let go......

I have seen this kind of thing. It is an awesome thing to see folks delivered...

[CC1]

Pastor was preaching real good about this being somebody's day and moment....

Enter the Demonic Display....

Little black lady in a housecoat, flipflops, doorag and drunk as a skunk wanders into the sanctuary and begins to run laps....

Then she flops in the floor and does the satanic serpant thing....

The ushers are ready to bounce her out but I say leave her alone and continue to preach that we will not be distracted by demonic presentation.....

When all of the sudden.....

The HG falls on a young man and he jumps and runs to the front.....

He is filled with the HG and delivered from some very dark demonic spirits....

As he is being delivered the Devils Demonic Presentation tries to slither up to him hissing etc....

But to no avail......

The bouncers are now allowed to do what they knew to do and the Demon began cursing and ran from the santuary and out of the church......

It will be interesting to watch the hand of God on the young man who God delivered....

Obviously the devil did not want to let go......

I am curious as to why you did what you did when the lady came down to the front. Reading your account it would seem logical to either confront the demonic distraction right then or to let the ushers expel it from the premises. What caused you to allow that to go on while you continued to preach?

[Felicity]

Enter the Demonic Display....

Little black lady in a housecoat, flipflops, doorag and drunk as a skunk wanders into the sanctuary and begins to run laps....


Think we may have encountered this same lady or someone very similar on a country road in rural N.B. a few years back. She was staggering along the side of the road and when we approached her driving along in the car she wandered out into the road in front of us cursing, snarling, and spitting at us.

Amazing!

[OneAccord]

... or could it be, and I'm just speculating here, that the devil didn't send her at all, but that, maybe, she was drawn by the Lord for the purpose of deliverance? Just a thought.

[GodsBabyGirl]

Think we may have encountered this same lady or someone very similar on a country road in rural N.B. a few years back. She was staggering along the side of the road and when we approached her driving along in the car she wandered out into the road in front of us cursing, snarling, and spitting at us.

Amazing!

Or just that same spirit.....

[TRFrance]

This brings to mind a situation involving a young woman back at my old church in NY, who got delivered from a demon, and God filled her with the Holy Ghost about 30 seconds after the demon went out!!

I was right there with her, with a few other saints, when it happened. It was an amazing thing to see.

[ChTatum]

I would think the good pastor did as he felt led to do in the Spirit.

I wasn't there so I will not question how he handled the situation.

[freeatlast]

Seeing it was RKentSmith.............I'd thought he could of "grinned" the devil out of that gal.

One Grin for RKent and the debil has to flee. ;-)

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm just glad the power of God was present in that service to confront the enemy.

[MissBrattified]

I would think the good pastor did as he felt led to do in the Spirit.

I wasn't there so I will not question how he handled the situation.

I'm going to agree with you completely on this one.

[Ronzo]

I would think the good pastor did as he felt led to do in the Spirit.

I wasn't there so I will not question how he handled the situation.

No Armchair quarterbacking? :D

[Amos]

I would think the good pastor did as he felt led to do in the Spirit.

I wasn't there so I will not question how he handled the situation.



Exactly.

Thanks for a dose of common sense.

[CC1]

I would think the good pastor did as he felt led to do in the Spirit.

I wasn't there so I will not question how he handled the situation.


I would never let not being there keep me from asking questions based on the first hand account given by the pastor!

I just have this image in my mind of him trying to continue preaching with this woman in a bathrobe and slippers rolling around the front of the church, etc. It just seemed like something dramatic enough to have needed to have been addressed immediately as described so I thought perhaps he could paint a fuller picture of the events.

[rkentsmith]

I am curious as to why you did what you did when the lady came down to the front. Reading your account it would seem logical to either confront the demonic distraction right then or to let the ushers expel it from the premises. What caused you to allow that to go on while you continued to preach?


Holy Ghost said ignor it this time....

It was a demon sent to distract....

[rkentsmith]

I would never let not being there keep me from asking questions based on the first hand account given by the pastor!

I just have this image in my mind of him trying to continue preaching with this woman in a bathrobe and slippers rolling around the front of the church, etc. It just seemed like something dramatic enough to have needed to have been addressed immediately as described so I thought perhaps he could paint a fuller picture of the events.

No fuller pic to paint...

We ignorred...

We kept pounding for about 5 minutes....

The people got with us....

Whammo....

HG fell.....

Nice........................

[rkentsmith]

I just cleared thirteen voice messages from political candidates who want to go to work for me.........www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[COOPER]

So hows it going in Corn-roll, Texas!

[Michael Phelps]

I just cleared thirteen voice messages from political candidates who want to go to work for me.........www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

And, I'm sure they ALL promised the same thing, right? Undying loyalty to you, John Q Public, more jobs, less taxes, and greener lawns. A chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, blah, blah, blah.

I really wish at least ONE honest candidate would stand up and say, "I probably won't be able to lower your taxes significantly in 4 years, I will try to talk corporations out of moving jobs overseas, but I won't make any promises, but I can promise you that I will work hard to make our country a better place - oh, and by the way, I have nothing bad to say about my opponents, they're all good people, just like me"

[rkentsmith]

Things are good in Corn-row.....

Blessings

[freeatlast]

Just read your blog and cruised your very well done website Br Smith.

It looks like ya all got it going on in Conroe.

Looks a church I'd like to visit....but Illinois is a fer peice from ya all.

[rkentsmith]

Just read your blog and cruised your very well done website Br Smith.

It looks like ya all got it going on in Conroe.

Looks a church I'd like to visit....but Illinois is a fer peice from ya all.

We would be more than happy to pick you up in the van Sunday:ursofunny

Thanks so much

[rkentsmith]

And, I'm sure they ALL promised the same thing, right? Undying loyalty to you, John Q Public, more jobs, less taxes, and greener lawns. A chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, blah, blah, blah.

I really wish at least ONE honest candidate would stand up and say, "I probably won't be able to lower your taxes significantly in 4 years, I will try to talk corporations out of moving jobs overseas, but I won't make any promises, but I can promise you that I will work hard to make our country a better place - oh, and by the way, I have nothing bad to say about my opponents, they're all good people, just like me"

Did you leave a message for me this week???

[krawlinson]

Hey Kent!

Kelli Gibson from High Island. I have been getting a lot of political advertisments on my home phone also. Although the fore runners is not any that I would pick. Oh, well! :gaga

[COOPER]

Hey Kent!

Kelli Gibson from High Island. I have been getting a lot of political advertisments on my home phone also. Although the fore runners is not any that I would pick. Oh, well! :gaga

Funny thing last night.......Barak Obama called me!

I had the pleasure of hanging up on him!:ursofunny

[COOPER]

Things are good in Corn-row.....

Blessings

Corn-row....sounds southern:friend

[rkentsmith]

A few days ago I taught a series of lessons to CUPC about forgiveness and loving one’s brother no matter what happens…

Little did I know what path I was to walk soon….www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

[OneAccord]

A few days ago I taught a series of lessons to CUPC about forgiveness and loving one’s brother no matter what happens…

Little did I know what path I was to walk soon….www.rkentsmith.blogspot.com

What an inspiring meassge. Thank you, Brother, for sharing. Theres nothing I can say, nothing to add, except... "Lord, help me."

[MissBrattified]

Wow, I love that, RKS!!!

"If I am to be one with Him…

I must be one with him…"