Laodiceans, Has the church become Laodiceans?

[robert]

I've heard Political ideology described as left...middle...right. Also as liberal...moderate...conservative. The church has chosen it seems to use this same terminology. I can't understand why? Aren't we supposed to distance ourselves from the things of this world? Revelation may be where the world came up with these words...but Revelation says it like this, cold...lukewarm...hot. (Revelation 3:15-16) As God explains it...
cold is bad...lukewarm is the worst...hot is good. Fire is always used in a positive way, it purifies, it was used during the day of Pentecost Holy Ghost experience as a symbol of God's Spirit coming to God's people. Here is the point of this thread.
Is cold: liberal, left, bad.
Is lukewarm: middle, moderate, to be spued out.
Is hot: right, conservative, good.
People are using political terminology to state their position of belief. I express myself as a conservative, right, hot...Apostolic, and I feel good about it. What is your preferance. liberal,moderate, conservative......left,middle,right....or cold, lukewarm, hot.

Revelation 3: 14-19...
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;These things sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot. I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increasing with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mightest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent

[Dan'D]

I've heard Political ideology described as left...middle...right. Also as liberal...moderate...conservative. The church has chosen it seems to use this same terminology. I can't understand why? Aren't we supposed to distance ourselves from the things of this world? Revelation may be where the world came up with these words...but Revelation says it like this, cold...lukewarm...hot. (Revelation 3:15-16) As God explains it...
cold is bad...lukewarm is the worst...hot is good. Fire is always used in a positive way, it purifies, it was used during the day of Pentecost Holy Ghost experience as a symbol of God's Spirit coming to God's people. Here is the point of this thread.
Is cold: liberal, left, bad.
Is lukewarm: middle, moderate, to be spued out.
Is hot: right, conservative, good.
People are using political terminology to state their position of belief. I express myself as a conservative, right, hot...Apostolic, and I feel good about it. What is your preferance. liberal,moderate, conservative......left,middle,right....or cold, lukewarm, hot.

Revelation 3: 14-19...
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;These things sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot. I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increasing with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mightest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent

I like the way you think, AMEN
Dan"D

[CC1]

robert,

Like many you have just taken scripture and made an application of it that suits your thinking.

In your mind someone who is what is labeled "liberal" in Pentecost is "cold" because in your mind they are not "holy" and are "sinning". However that is in your mind not in the Bible.

What I am saying is that what you yourself consider cold or lukewarm may not be so according to the Bible.

The application you made is one done by all sorts of judgemental people and as Elder Epley has noted "everybody is a liberal to somebody".

I don't know just how conservative you are but for a moment lets assume you are a moderately conservative UPC type. You would place me as one of those cold liberals and yourself as "hot". However if you wear short sleeves, watch church videos in your home, or wear a wedding ring you would be considered "cold" by ultra conservatives.

These personal perspectives mean nothing. It is the word of God that means everything and that is what I live by.

[ChTatum]

Luke 18:9-13 (KJV)
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

[robert]

robert,

Like many you have just taken scripture and made an application of it that suits your thinking.

In your mind someone who is what is labeled "liberal" in Pentecost is "cold" because in your mind they are not "holy" and are "sinning". However that is in your mind not in the Bible.

What I am saying is that what you yourself consider cold or lukewarm may not be so according to the Bible.

The application you made is one done by all sorts of judgemental people and as Elder Epley has noted "everybody is a liberal to somebody".

I don't know just how conservative you are but for a moment lets assume you are a moderately conservative UPC type. You would place me as one of those cold liberals and yourself as "hot". However if you wear short sleeves, watch church videos in your home, or wear a wedding ring you would be considered "cold" by ultra conservatives.

These personal perspectives mean nothing. It is the word of God that means everything and that is what I live by.

I agree with your opinion that I did think this could be a possibility as to what is meant by these scriptures. Using political terminology as an analogy to cold, hot, and luke warm. You don't agree with my analogy, but do you at least agree with the scriptures. Doesn't God say to be one way or the other and not to be a compromiser. It seems cold could be refering to sinners, lukewarm to hypocrits and hot to those that are trying with all of their ability to please and obey God. Would my thoughts as I discribe them here be my own application of thinking or a probable interpretation of these scriptures. It seams you are trying to say there could be cold, semi cold, lukewarm, semi hot, hot. Wouldn't this make you to be creating an application of thought to suit your way of thinking. God uses three words to span different degrees of saints. One being on the low end, one being in the middle, and one being on the high end. He is using a church in these scriptures so can't we assume he could be talking to us as well.

[Sister Alvear]

when we measure ourselves among ourselves we are not wise...

I cannot agree with the conclusion...yes, and I am considered an UC....but to say those YOu term as liberal are bad...is very wrong...I know UC's that have molested children...

You guessed it...I hate labels...

It is Jesus who decides...I know UC's that could care less that the world is pershing without Jesus...I can tell it by their attitudes, their actions and their giving...I know those that are liberals that are working day and night to make Jesus known...so how does God judge this matter? I go to churches where they look like nuns and monges but that does NOT make them pure and holy...

Does this sound strange from a person that believes in standards? Probably so...however I do not think we can say who is bad or good...only GOD has that right.

Like I told a boy in my class last night we err often by not thinking things through...and not looking from God's veiwpoint...

Yes, I too know that works both ways...

I was in Egypt and they were dressed so "holy" all I could see was their eyes followering me...their holiness scared me.

[Sister Alvear]

How many cities have no one to weep over them? How many people would love to have a Bible...Just yesterday a ppor little goup of saints called and begged me to help them raise money for a roof for their church...they have the walls up...begged all over town for bricks and sand and did all they possibly could but need help...if I write this on this board asking for help you know who usually hears the cry? Those you labeled as bad and cold and lukewarm...
Do I agree with everyone on this forum? Of couse not! But you will not find me grouping them into who is bad and who is good...

[robert]

Luke 18:9-13 (KJV)
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I'm not sure what your point is here, but are you saying the pharasee to be the one described as cold, lukewarm, or hot?...I wound consider the pharasee to be lukewarm (hypocrit) I think I would even have Jesus in agreement here because he called the Pharasees hypocrites. The publican would be considered in my opinion to be cold for he said he a was a sinner. When he rose to his feet from his prayer of repentance I would say he was hot. Ready to obey God with all his ability and to never go the way of the Pharasee or even to return to his sinful lifestyle. Was I correct that this is what you are trying to say?

[robert]

when we measure ourselves among ourselves we are not wise...

I cannot agree with the conclusion...yes, and I am considered an UC....but to say those YOu term as liberal are bad...is very wrong...I know UC's that have molested children...

You guessed it...I hate labels...

It is Jesus who decides...I know UC's that could care less that the world is pershing without Jesus...I can tell it by their attitudes, their actions and their giving...I know those that are liberals that are working day and night to make Jesus known...so how does God judge this matter? I go to churches where they look like nuns and monges but that does NOT make them pure and holy...

Does this sound strange from a person that believes in standards? Probably so...however I do not think we can say who is bad or good...only GOD has that right.

Like I told a boy in my class last night we err often by not thinking things through...and not looking from God's veiwpoint...

Yes, I too know that works both ways...

I was in Egypt and they were dressed so "holy" all I could see was their eyes followering me...their holiness scared me.

You are right about labels, I used the label analogy because people seperate themselves from one another by using these labels themselves. People seem proud to call themselves liberals, moderates or consevatives. Jesus says about the Laodicean church that they are cold, hot, or lukewarm...these are words that he uses to describe saints in this church. The hot word seems to be the word that describes the saints that are pleasing and obeying God. Everyone should want to be hot and not the other two. Just because someone does good works does not mean they are saved...the scriptures declare this. I should not have fallen into the same trap that people put themselves into by calling myself right, conservative...but I do desire to be hot as described in Revelation.

[robert]

How many cities have no one to weep over them? How many people would love to have a Bible...Just yesterday a ppor little goup of saints called and begged me to help them raise money for a roof for their church...they have the walls up...begged all over town for bricks and sand and did all they possibly could but need help...if I write this on this board asking for help you know who usually hears the cry? Those you labeled as bad and cold and lukewarm...
Do I agree with everyone on this forum? Of couse not! But you will not find me grouping them into who is bad and who is good...

When people call themselves liberals, moderates, or conservatives THEY are grouping themselves and dividing themselves from one another. That is why God wants us to be of one mind and one accord. It seems impossible for this to happen what with so many fighting to prove their own groups to be correct and other groups to be wrong. I know this thread is controversial, but isn't it worth discussing a sollution to this seperation problem. Laodicea in Revelation was mentioned to show a real problem that was in the church and the solution was given as well...repent...Repentance should make us want to be the hot God is describing in These verses not want to avoid the issue. Is there anyone that can say we are not live in the Laodicean church age?

[simplyme]

When people call themselves liberals, moderates, or conservatives THEY are grouping themselves and dividing themselves from one another. That is why God wants us to be of one mind and one accord. It seems impossible for this to happen what with so many fighting to prove their own groups to be correct and other groups to be wrong. I know this thread is controversial, but isn't it worth discussing a sollution to this seperation problem. Laodicea in Revelation was mentioned to show a real problem that was in the church and the solution was given as well...repent...Repentance should make us want to be the hot God is describing in These verses not want to avoid the issue.
AMEN!

[robert]

AMEN!

I like the way you talk!:hanky

[Blaylock]

I am so glad that you cleared this up for me. Here all along I thought I was Apostolic Pentecostal!!!

[Dan'D]

I am so glad that you cleared this up for me. Here all along I thought I was Apostolic Pentecostal!!!

See what happens when you go to sleep.
Dan'D

[ChTatum]

I'm not sure what your point is here, but are you saying the pharasee to be the one described as cold, lukewarm, or hot?...I wound consider the pharasee to be lukewarm (hypocrit) I think I would even have Jesus in agreement here because he called the Pharasees hypocrites. The publican would be considered in my opinion to be cold for he said he a was a sinner. When he rose to his feet from his prayer of repentance I would say he was hot. Ready to obey God with all his ability and to never go the way of the Pharasee or even to return to his sinful lifestyle. Was I correct that this is what you are trying to say?


Hey, treat it like you do the rest of scripture.

Apply as you will.

[OneAccord]

You are right about labels, I used the label analogy because people seperate themselves from one another by using these labels themselves. People seem proud to call themselves liberals, moderates or consevatives. Jesus says about the Laodicean church that they are cold, hot, or lukewarm...these are words that he uses to describe saints in this church. The hot word seems to be the word that describes the saints that are pleasing and obeying God. Everyone should want to be hot and not the other two. Just because someone does good works does not mean they are saved...the scriptures declare this. I should not have fallen into the same trap that people put themselves into by calling myself right, conservative...but I do desire to be hot as described in Revelation.

Im neither liberal, moderate, or conservative. I am not UPC, ALJC or WPF. I am just a brother in the Lord. I don't label myself any other way, and I sure don't "separate" myself from my brother in the Lord.

[robert]

Hey, treat it like you do the rest of scripture.

Apply as you will.

Sir, does the words cold, lukewarm, hot... mean something... as an analogy. Jesus gave this scripture for a reason. Is it wrong to examine the scriptures and find the meaning of a scripture as it applys to us? Oneaccord says he does not label himself liberal, moderate, conservative,...left, middle, or right and that is a wise thing to say. When we ourselves consider ourselves to be one of these labels then we open ourselves up to the scrutiny of others. God is the one that uses the words cold, lukewarm, hot, his words, not my words. My question was where do we see ourselves. God asks the question and he gives the solution.

[robert]

Im neither liberal, moderate, or conservative. I am not UPC, ALJC or WPF. I am just a brother in the Lord. I don't label myself any other way, and I sure don't "separate" myself from my brother in the Lord.

I don't seperate myself from my brother in the Lord either. As far as a label, I hope God sees me as pleasing to him, that should be everyones goal as a Christian.

[robert]

I am so glad that you cleared this up for me. Here all along I thought I was Apostolic Pentecostal!!!

It doesn't really matter what we see ourselves as, what matters is what God see's us as. In the Laodicea church he saw cold, lukewarm, hot. These words are His words not mine. It reminds me of the story of the mail man. Every one hates the mail man when he brings unwelcome news to them not realizing he did not write the letter...He just delivers it.

[Ronzo]

The thought that God would rather us be cold or hot in the sense that he'd rather us be dead or alive is indicative of a messed up view of God.

God would rather we be dead spiritually? Really? Ya think? I'm glad I don't serve that 'god'?



In reality... cold water and hot water are useful for specific purposes. Lukewarm water is stagnant and full of damaging organisms. God would rather we be useful to him in reaching the world, and ministering to one another in His body, than be lukewarm and stagnant.

COLD - Cold water is useful for refreshment. God would like for us to bring refreshment to those who are weary and overburdened. When one is thirsty and hot, and one drinks cold water, one is refreshed from within. When one who is overheated is soaked with cold water, one is refreshed from the outside. Cold water is useful.


HOT - Hot water is useful for cleansing. God would like to use us to cleanse the world of the sin that separates this world from Him. Not in the "You're going to hell, sinner!" way, but in the way that is one on one, compassionately... helping to cleanse people from the things that stain them individually. Lovingly helping them to get past their hangups and hurts... helping them to get free from the stains that are all they can see... the stains that label them and prevent them from being whole in Him.

[robert]

The thought that God would rather us be cold or hot in the sense that he'd rather us be dead or alive is indicative of a messed up view of God.

God would rather we be dead spiritually? Really? Ya think? I'm glad I don't serve that 'god'?



In reality... cold water and hot water are useful for specific purposes. Lukewarm water is stagnant and full of damaging organisms. God would rather we be useful to him in reaching the world, and ministering to one another in His body, than be lukewarm and stagnant.

COLD - Cold water is useful for refreshment. God would like for us to bring refreshment to those who are weary and overburdened. When one is thirsty and hot, and one drinks cold water, one is refreshed from within. When one who is overheated is soaked with cold water, one is refreshed from the outside. Cold water is useful.


HOT - Hot water is useful for cleansing. God would like to use us to cleanse the world of the sin that separates this world from Him. Not in the "You're going to hell, sinner!" way, but in the way that is one on one, compassionately... helping to cleanse people from the things that stain them individually. Lovingly helping them to get past their hangups and hurts... helping them to get free from the stains that are all they can see... the stains that label them and prevent them from being whole in Him.

I like your analogy, different from mine, but makes sense. The lukewarm is the thing that all should be concerned with. Lukewarm to me means to compromise, straddle the fence, be a hypocrit, me religion, justification of a lifestyle not acceptable to God, etc... Lukewarm is something we should avoid like the plague. One on one with a sinner and saying they are going to hell is very unwise. Preaching hell to the church is not wrong or God would not have mentioned hell so mant times in the Bible. The threat of an exitent hell should not bother a true christian but serve as a reminder of how we must live to avoid going there. God loves you with a passion too.:thumbsup

[robert]

I've heard Political ideology described as left...middle...right. Also as liberal...moderate...conservative. The church has chosen it seems to use this same terminology. I can't understand why? Aren't we supposed to distance ourselves from the things of this world? Revelation may be where the world came up with these words...but Revelation says it like this, cold...lukewarm...hot. (Revelation 3:15-16) As God explains it...
cold is bad...lukewarm is the worst...hot is good. Fire is always used in a positive way, it purifies, it was used during the day of Pentecost Holy Ghost experience as a symbol of God's Spirit coming to God's people. Here is the point of this thread.
Is cold: liberal, left, bad.
Is lukewarm: middle, moderate, to be spued out.
Is hot: right, conservative, good.
People are using political terminology to state their position of belief. What is your preferance. liberal,moderate, conservative......left,middle,right....or cold, lukewarm, hot.

Revelation 3: 14-19...
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;These things sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot. I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increasing with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mightest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent
.

[OneAccord]

Revelation 3: 14-19...
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;These things sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot. I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increasing with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mightest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent

While reading this passage, we should keep in mind that this was written to ine of the CHURCHES in Asia Minor. I emphasize the word CHURCHES to underscore the fact that this message was intended to address the churches on a collective basis, and not on an individual basis. What I mean by that is that God's intent was to speak to thechurches as a whole and not on an individual "on-on-one basis". He did not say, "And unto the angel of ROBERT write..." or "Unto the messenger of ONE ACCORD write...". If we try to apply these words on an individual basis, then we lose the intent of the message, for no one can be hot, cold, and lukewarm at the same time. The message was to a group of individuals and not to a singular individual. The church is made up of many- some hot (on fire with God), some lukewarm (like Peter standing in the shadows warming his hands), and some cold (and indifferent) to the things of God.

Personally, I believe this message speaks of the times that we are in now. The church is in a lukewarm state, it is rich in material goods, and think it needs nothing (or no one). Thats how the church sees itself. But God sees it in a totally different light. How we view ourselves on an individual basis isn't the issue. How God sees the church as a whole is what we need to focus on.
The key to undertanding what God means by being "hot" is found in the last 4 words of that passage (in bold, above): A "hot" church is a zealous church, a church involved in evangelism. It is a repentant church-based on the model of 2 Chron. 7:14.

[robert]

While reading this passage, we should keep in mind that this was written to ine of the CHURCHES in Asia Minor. I emphasize the word CHURCHES to underscore the fact that this message was intended to address the churches on a collective basis, and not on an individual basis. What I mean by that is that God's intent was to speak to thechurches as a whole and not on an individual "on-on-one basis". He did not say, "And unto the angel of ROBERT write..." or "Unto the messenger of ONE ACCORD write...". If we try to apply these words on an individual basis, then we lose the intent of the message, for no one can be hot, cold, and lukewarm at the same time. The message was to a group of individuals and not to a singular individual. The church is made up of many- some hot (on fire with God), some lukewarm (like Peter standing in the shadows warming his hands), and some cold (and indifferent) to the things of God.

Personally, I believe this message speaks of the times that we are in now. The church is in a lukewarm state, it is rich in material goods, and think it needs nothing (or no one). Thats how the church sees itself. But God sees it in a totally different light. How we view ourselves on an individual basis isn't the issue. How God sees the church as a whole is what we need to focus on.
The key to undertanding what God means by being "hot" is found in the last 4 words of that passage (in bold, above): A "hot" church is a zealous church, a church involved in evangelism. It is a repentant church-based on the model of 2 Chron. 7:14.

Thanks OneAccord,
Aren't individuals the church. I understand what you are saying but doesn't the individual have some responsibility to God to be the best they can be. God says we must walk in the Spirit not in the flesh. Isn't this going from one extreme to another. If we as children of God don't think it's our responsibility to be Spiritually minded and mind the things of the Spirit, won't that put us in a carnal nature, which I feel is being cold or lukewarm.

[Blaylock]

It doesn't really matter what we see ourselves as, what matters is what God see's us as. In the Laodicea church he saw cold, lukewarm, hot. These words are His words not mine. It reminds me of the story of the mail man. Every one hates the mail man when he brings unwelcome news to them not realizing he did not write the letter...He just delivers it.

So Robert how would you "label" me?

[OneAccord]

Thanks OneAccord,
Aren't individuals the church. I understand what you are saying but doesn't the individual have some responsibility to God to be the best they can be. God says we must walk in the Spirit not in the flesh. Isn't this going from one extreme to another. If we as children of God don't think it's our responsibility to be Spiritually minded and mind the things of the Spirit, won't that put us in a carnal nature, which I feel is being cold or lukewarm.

Collectively, yes, we are the church. Analogy- In a factory that employs 500 people... the boss calls everyone together and says "Somebody's been smoking in the break room". Everyone here is fired". That would be fair- not would it be in the company's best interest to can the entire production staff.

The message of Rev. 3, to the Laodiceans is a collective message, that speaks to the church in its entirety. Its up to the individuals to look at that message to see if it speaks to them on a one to one basis. Yes, there are "degrees" of being a Christian, but it isn't our place to say who fits where. The spiritually minded, as you said, minds the things of the Spirit, and doesn't take a lot of time thinking who is, and who is not, as "hot" for the Lord as they should be.

[SDG]

Some like it HOT ...

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done
many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.

[Praxeas]

I've heard Political ideology described as left...middle...right. Also as liberal...moderate...conservative. The church has chosen it seems to use this same terminology. I can't understand why? Aren't we supposed to distance ourselves from the things of this world? Revelation may be where the world came up with these words...but Revelation says it like this, cold...lukewarm...hot. (Revelation 3:15-16) As God explains it...
cold is bad...lukewarm is the worst...hot is good. Fire is always used in a positive way, it purifies, it was used during the day of Pentecost Holy Ghost experience as a symbol of God's Spirit coming to God's people. Here is the point of this thread.
Is cold: liberal, left, bad.
Is lukewarm: middle, moderate, to be spued out.
Is hot: right, conservative, good.
People are using political terminology to state their position of belief. I express myself as a conservative, right, hot...Apostolic, and I feel good about it. What is your preferance. liberal,moderate, conservative......left,middle,right....or cold, lukewarm, hot.

Revelation 3: 14-19...
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;These things sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot. I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increasing with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mightest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent
No, cold does not equal liberal, Lukewarm does not equal moderate and hot does not equal conservative. How did you come to that conclusion? Who defines what is liberal or conservative or moderate anyways?

[SDG]

Robert, do you know what the problem in Laodicea was ....????

They were PRIGGISH .... LIKE YOUR POST ...

For you say, 'I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.' You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich; and white robes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen; and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. (NRSV)


Most theologians believe the words attributed to the Laodiceans obviously mark an ironic over-confidence in regard to spiritual wealth. They, unlike the Christ who knows, are unable to recognize their bankruptcy.

However, the image may also be drawing on the perceived worldly wealth of the city.

Either way they thought they were better than everyone else.

They weren't being chastised for being LESS APOSTOLIC.

[Praxeas]

I agree with your opinion that I did think this could be a possibility as to what is meant by these scriptures. Using political terminology as an analogy to cold, hot, and luke warm. You don't agree with my analogy, but do you at least agree with the scriptures. Doesn't God say to be one way or the other and not to be a compromiser.
No it does not say not to be a compromiser. But that is beside the point as we should not compromise the word of God. The PROBLEM is that you probably think anyone that does not believe like you is a compromiser because they are not your brand of conservative....but you might actually be the compromiser and not even realize it. Some of the MOST conservative people in the bible in Jesus's day were the Pharisees....they were Ultra Conservative AND they had compromised the word of God. Amazing eh?

Mar 7:6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.'
Mar 7:11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)--
Mar 7:12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."

It seems cold could be refering to sinners, lukewarm to hypocrits and hot to those that are trying with all of their ability to please and obey God.
That's pharisees problem though. They thought they could please God with THEIR ability.

God looks for a broken humble heart and faith. In fact a Moderate or a Liberal could just as much as you be trying to please God and obey God even though they don't agree with your view of things. Again....maybe you are the cold or the lukewarm? Think about it. A very conservative person in outward works can be deader than a door nail inwardly

One being on the low end, one being in the middle, and one being on the high end. He is using a church in these scriptures so can't we assume he could be talking to us as well.
The problem is you decided for yourself that he was talking about being liberal, moderate and conservative and that you put yourself in the best catagory.

[SDG]

No it does not say not to be a compromiser. But that is beside the point as we should not compromise the word of God. The PROBLEM is that you probably think anyone that does not believe like you is a compromiser because they are not your brand of conservative....but you might actually be the compromiser and not even realize it. Some of the MOST conservative people in the bible in Jesus's day were the Pharisees....they were Ultra Conservative AND they had compromised the word of God. Amazing eh?

Mar 7:6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.'
Mar 7:11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)--
Mar 7:12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."


That's pharisees problem though. They thought they could please God with THEIR ability.

God looks for a broken humble heart and faith. In fact a Moderate or a Liberal could just as much as you be trying to please God and obey God even though they don't agree with your view of things. Again....maybe you are the cold or the lukewarm? Think about it. A very conservative person in outward works can be deader than a door nail inwardly


The problem is you decided for yourself that he was talking about being liberal, moderate and conservative and that you put yourself in the best catagory.

Rich in tradition ...

buck naked, pitiable, blind and impoverished in relationship

Just like the Laodiceans

[Praxeas]

Yep. I have seen this all to often too. Traditions are not bad necessarily. They are when they become as important as the word. They are when they unnecessarily control people.They are when they restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity...

[SDG]

Yep. I have seen this all to often too. Traditions are not bad necessarily. They are when they become as important as the word. They are when they unnecessarily control people.They are when they restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity...

Agreed. Bobby failed to read what the beef was w/ Laodicea ...

More drive-by theology.

[CC1]

No, cold does not equal liberal, Lukewarm does not equal moderate and hot does not equal conservative. How did you come to that conclusion? Who defines what is liberal or conservative or moderate anyways?

LOL!!! You managed to say in two sentances what took me many in response to his post.

[robert]

So Robert how would you "label" me?

Who said I was labeling anyone. I asked how do we label ourselves. You know in your own heart where you are with God. I know here I am with God, and I always see that I need improvement.

[robert]

Some like it HOT ...

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done
many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.

I suppose you are a liberal...and you believe liberals are hot? Who are these that the Lord speaks of in this scripture.
The beatitudes was full of instructions as well as blessings and was ended with Hearing and doing and what would happen to the doers. It also spoke of those who hear and do not do and what happens to them. These scriptures you wrote of was probably the do nothings. They probably believed in welfare salvation. Do nothing and wait for pay day. Their pay day was not what they were expecting.

[robert]

No, cold does not equal liberal, Lukewarm does not equal moderate and hot does not equal conservative. How did you come to that conclusion? Who defines what is liberal or conservative or moderate anyways?

If you consider yourself any one of these. I guess you would know what it means to you. Most people know what the words mean and when they use them on thereselves they know why they are using them. I've heard people on this forum use these words quite often. Daniel Alicea uses a big liberal in his signature. Hopefully he does not think of himself as liberal in a political sense. I would not want to be associated with liberal democrats in any way shape or form.

[robert]

Robert, do you know what the problem in Laodicea was ....????

They were PRIGGISH .... LIKE YOUR POST ...

For you say, 'I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.' You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich; and white robes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen; and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. (NRSV)


Most theologians believe the words attributed to the Laodiceans obviously mark an ironic over-confidence in regard to spiritual wealth. They, unlike the Christ who knows, are unable to recognize their bankruptcy.

However, the image may also be drawing on the perceived worldly wealth of the city.

Either way they thought they were better than everyone else.

They weren't being chastised for being LESS APOSTOLIC.

What is priggish?

[robert]

Rich in tradition ...

buck naked, pitiable, blind and impoverished in relationship

Just like the Laodiceans

Amnazing, I put myself in the category I figured God would want me to be in, You call me a Pharasee, a hypocrite, and think negatively of me and you don't even Know me. You are being my judge and jury. I have not accused you of any thing...I gave an analogy and asked a question. Why these attacks? My desire is not to be holier than you, but to please Jesus my Lord.

[robert]

Yep. I have seen this all to often too. Traditions are not bad necessarily. They are when they become as important as the word. They are when they unnecessarily control people.They are when they restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity...

Would you say praying before church starts...a tradition of the church I went to in Kansas...would restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity. Actually good traditions don't restrict anyone from spiritual growth, love, and maturity except in the minds of those who want to make good traditions into evil things because they want to make newer and better traditions for themselves. Traditions that are probably worse than the ones they condemn.

[robert]

I seem to be in the minority on this thread.:)

[Theophil]

robert,

Like many you have just taken scripture and made an application of it that suits your thinking.

In your mind someone who is what is labeled "liberal" in Pentecost is "cold" because in your mind they are not "holy" and are "sinning". However that is in your mind not in the Bible.

What I am saying is that what you yourself consider cold or lukewarm may not be so according to the Bible.

The application you made is one done by all sorts of judgemental people and as Elder Epley has noted "everybody is a liberal to somebody".

I don't know just how conservative you are but for a moment lets assume you are a moderately conservative UPC type. You would place me as one of those cold liberals and yourself as "hot". However if you wear short sleeves, watch church videos in your home, or wear a wedding ring you would be considered "cold" by ultra conservatives.

These personal perspectives mean nothing. It is the word of God that means everything and that is what I live by.

Amen. I like the way you think.

[CC1]

I seem to be in the minority on this thread.:)

But we still love ya!!!!

[Blaylock]

Who said I was labeling anyone. I asked how do we label ourselves. You know in your own heart where you are with God. I know here I am with God, and I always see that I need improvement.

I am who I am ... blood bought redeemed saved by grace. Now am I wrong for not believing in what some in the WPF are doing and what they are saying they are doing it for?

[Praxeas]

If you consider yourself any one of these. I guess you would know what it means to you. Most people know what the words mean and when they use them on thereselves they know why they are using them. I've heard people on this forum use these words quite often. Daniel Alicea uses a big liberal in his signature. Hopefully he does not think of himself as liberal in a political sense. I would not want to be associated with liberal democrats in any way shape or form.
that is all beside the point. You are just assuming cold equals liberal, lukewarm equals moderate and hot equals conservative.

[Praxeas]

What is priggish?
You never heard the nursery song "This little priggy went to market. This little priggy stayed him. This little priggy had roast beef and this little priggy had none"?

[Praxeas]

Would you say praying before church starts...a tradition of the church I went to in Kansas...would restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity. Actually good traditions don't restrict anyone from spiritual growth, love, and maturity except in the minds of those who want to make good traditions into evil things because they want to make newer and better traditions for themselves. Traditions that are probably worse than the ones they condemn.
As I said, traditions are not bad necessarily, just those traditions that do what I just spoke of are bad.

BTW you know even liberals and moderates pray before church begins

[Dan'D]

As I said, traditions are not bad necessarily, just those traditions that do what I just spoke of are bad.

BTW you know even liberals and moderates pray before church begins

What traditions would you keep?
Dan'D

[Praxeas]

No it does not say not to be a compromiser. But that is beside the point as we should not compromise the word of God. The PROBLEM is that you probably think anyone that does not believe like you is a compromiser because they are not your brand of conservative....but you might actually be the compromiser and not even realize it. Some of the MOST conservative people in the bible in Jesus's day were the Pharisees....they were Ultra Conservative AND they had compromised the word of God. Amazing eh?

Mar 7:6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.'
Mar 7:11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)--
Mar 7:12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."


That's pharisees problem though. They thought they could please God with THEIR ability.

God looks for a broken humble heart and faith. In fact a Moderate or a Liberal could just as much as you be trying to please God and obey God even though they don't agree with your view of things. Again....maybe you are the cold or the lukewarm? Think about it. A very conservative person in outward works can be deader than a door nail inwardly


The problem is you decided for yourself that he was talking about being liberal, moderate and conservative and that you put yourself in the best catagory.
bump for Robert

[Praxeas]

What traditions would you keep?
Dan'D
Traditions are not bad necessarily. They are when they become as important as the word. They are when they unnecessarily control people.They are when they restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity...

I would not keep any tradition that unnecessarily control people or restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity.

No tradition should be put on par with the word of God to the point that a member is kicked out or treated poorly because they are not keeping a tradition, even if such a tradition is not necessarily bad.

I can't answer your question directly because we don't all keep the same traditions/

[robert]

But we still love ya!!!!

I may be off base with this thread but my intention was to bring attention to the differences people put upon themselves. I did not think of liberal, conservative, moderate until I started going to christian discussion forums. I never even thought of myself as a label yet I put one on myself. Revelations...Laodicea... came to my mind and I thought it might bring awareness to people about these differences. Aren't we as christians supposed to be likeminded. How can there be so many attitudes and different way of seeing scriptures...Doesn't this raise a red flag that something is out of sinc.

[robert]

bump for Robert

I'm 51 years old, I don't know your age but I asume your young. If I'm wrong forgive me. What does bump for Robert mean...is this an insult or a compliment or what? It appears you're insinuating that I'm a pharasee or a hypocrit. Am I correct in this assumption? I'm not sure where your heart is, but you do seem to be disrespectful to people you don't even know.

[robert]

You never heard the nursery song "This little priggy went to market. This little priggy stayed him. This little priggy had roast beef and this little priggy had none"?

Wasn't that nusery rhyme...this little piggy...You still didn't explain what you were meaning when you said priggish. I'm an older man and am not up on youth lingo...Would you mind speaking in a way I can understand you. I can't tell if you're being serious or funning with me.

[robert]

No it does not say not to be a compromiser. But that is beside the point as we should not compromise the word of God. The PROBLEM is that you probably think anyone that does not believe like you is a compromiser because they are not your brand of conservative....but you might actually be the compromiser and not even realize it. Some of the MOST conservative people in the bible in Jesus's day were the Pharisees....they were Ultra Conservative AND they had compromised the word of God. Amazing eh?

Mar 7:6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.'
Mar 7:11 But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)--
Mar 7:12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."


That's pharisees problem though. They thought they could please God with THEIR ability.

God looks for a broken humble heart and faith. In fact a Moderate or a Liberal could just as much as you be trying to please God and obey God even though they don't agree with your view of things. Again....maybe you are the cold or the lukewarm? Think about it. A very conservative person in outward works can be deader than a door nail inwardly


The problem is you decided for yourself that he was talking about being liberal, moderate and conservative and that you put yourself in the best catagory.

I never did say this, I just thought it ironic that we as christians divide ourselves using political terminology. Why do one mind one accord christians want to label themselves as having different ways of believing. I fell into the same trap, labeling myself as a conservative. I am being set upon by those that do not agree with a conservative point of view. Those that don't want to go to either extreme want to be moderate so they can have the best of both worlds. This can not be pleasing to God.

[Praxeas]

I'm 51 years old, I don't know your age but I asume your young. If I'm wrong forgive me. What does bump for Robert mean...is this an insult or a compliment or what? It appears you're insinuating that I'm a pharasee or a hypocrit. Am I correct in this assumption? I'm not sure where your heart is, but you do seem to be disrespectful to people you don't even know.
Good grief. bump means I was bumping a post I made before that you did not respond to. It's not about being disrespectful.

Why ask is Cold liberal, is lukewarm moderate and is conservative Hot if you did not think this?

BTW Robert. We are just responding to what you are putting down here.

[Praxeas]

Wasn't that nusery rhyme...this little piggy...You still didn't explain what you were meaning when you said priggish. I'm an older man and am not up on youth lingo...Would you mind speaking in a way I can understand you. I can't tell if you're being serious or funning with me.
I didn't say priggish. someone else did. I was having fun with it. Sorry you don't understand things

[RandyWayne]

Would you say praying before church starts...a tradition of the church I went to in Kansas...would restrict spiritual growth, love and maturity. Actually good traditions don't restrict anyone from spiritual growth, love, and maturity except in the minds of those who want to make good traditions into evil things because they want to make newer and better traditions for themselves. Traditions that are probably worse than the ones they condemn.

You bring up a good point and a good way to springboard. Traditions are not always bad. In fact, quite often they are good and honorable and just plane healthy. But.... It WOULD be wrong to proclaim that "Praying before the service and the amount of said time shall not exceed less then such and such...." then call someone backslid who prays less then the average (in the prayer room before service).
This is, and always was, the problem with doctrinal 'standards' and the way they are all too often applied.

[RandyWayne]

Luke 18:9-13 (KJV)
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12] I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I'm going to quote you in another thread.....

[angelwannabe]

I've heard Political ideology described as left...middle...right. Also as liberal...moderate...conservative. The church has chosen it seems to use this same terminology. I can't understand why? Aren't we supposed to distance ourselves from the things of this world? Revelation may be where the world came up with these words...but Revelation says it like this, cold...lukewarm...hot. (Revelation 3:15-16) As God explains it...
cold is bad...lukewarm is the worst...hot is good. Fire is always used in a positive way, it purifies, it was used during the day of Pentecost Holy Ghost experience as a symbol of God's Spirit coming to God's people. Here is the point of this thread.
Is cold: liberal, left, bad.
Is lukewarm: middle, moderate, to be spued out.
Is hot: right, conservative, good.
People are using political terminology to state their position of belief. I express myself as a conservative, right, hot...Apostolic, and I feel good about it. What is your preferance. liberal,moderate, conservative......left,middle,right....or cold, lukewarm, hot.

Revelation 3: 14-19...
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;These things sayeth the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot. I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increasing with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mightest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent

Aren't you being a little judgemental? :boxing

[angelwannabe]

You bring up a good point and a good way to springboard. Traditions are not always bad. In fact, quite often they are good and honorable and just plane healthy. But.... It WOULD be wrong to proclaim that "Praying before the service and the amount of said time shall not exceed less then such and such...." then call someone backslid who prays less then the average (in the prayer room before service).
This is, and always was, the problem with doctrinal 'standards' and the way they are all too often applied.

What's with the serious look??? Are you trying to look intimidating?:ursofunny

[RandyWayne]

What's with the serious look??? Are you trying to look intimidating?:ursofunny

It is my "serious, yet slightly confused" look. Ever see the show Eureka?

[Praxeas]

What's with the serious look??? Are you trying to look intimidating?:ursofunny
Looks like Vladamir Putin with hair