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View Full Version : Who Decides What is a Rebellious Act...or Not?


Annie
03-15-2007, 09:08 AM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????

Chan
03-15-2007, 09:11 AM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????Rebellion against whom? It's only rebellion against God if it is disobedience to His word or to something He has specifically told the individual (which is always in line with His word). Otherwise, it may be rebellion against the teachings of the particular church where one is attending.

revrandy
03-15-2007, 09:11 AM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...
Any input??????

I trim my hair all the time.... :happydance

Titus_2_3
03-15-2007, 09:41 AM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????

This is one of the teachings I adhered to when I came into the UPC and out of the world. I can not imagine letting down on the very principles that I feel saved me. In doing this I feel as though I would be backsliding.

Chan
03-15-2007, 09:43 AM
This is one of the teachings I adhered to when I came into the UPC and out of the world. I can not imagine letting down on the very principles that I feel saved me. In doing this I feel as though I would be backsliding.
So, you were saved by works and NOT by grace?

LadyChocolate
03-15-2007, 09:46 AM
Rebellion against whom? It's only rebellion against God if it is disobedience to His word or to something He has specifically told the individual (which is always in line with His word). Otherwise, it may be rebellion against the teachings of the particular church where one is attending.

What are your thoughts on those who are considered "rebellious" they don't line up to the pastor? Not things that are mandated by the Word, but things the pastor requires... I'd say when it comes to those things that if you don't think you could live up to what the pastor teaches outside of the bible, then you would be safe to go a find another church...(and not church hopping either).. what do you think?

tbpew
03-15-2007, 09:54 AM
For my second posting risk of the morning....
in the face-hair-on-men thread now somewhere back around page 7-9, I was stirred by a posting response made by poster "Coonskinner"; I am copying into this post because I think it is asking the same thing as this thread is asking, albeit, with a male at the center rather than a female.

from the earlier thread I mention above, with underline highlights by me
Quote:
I refuse to make this an issue of rebellion. I probably lose some points on the CQ for that. (Conservative Quotient)

I have learned that if you really want to be in ministry, there are a lot of "rights" that I have to be willing to give up. And things like a beard are the least of it.

So if a man heard my comments and didn't shave his beard, I would basically shrug my shoulders and continue to love him. I would certainly not take it personally or try to run him off. Good grief.

I am greatly interested in the part of your statement that I bolded above.

You words express an understanding that, operating within your calling and election in God, that YOU CAN DETERMINE what is and what is NOT rebellion.

This would make the issue of rebellion a purposed decision made by the recipient [protagonist] of the preceived rebellion NOT a condition of the person's heart [antagonist].

This is a dramatic departure from the way I was taught rebellion existed. I was always taught it was a "spirit of rebellion". With you comment, a spirit of rebellion could be made an issue or NOT made an issue. The only environment were something could be made or not made, is within the realm of men's dominion.

This post invites consideration of whether what is often called rebellion is actually a decision made by a man, with respect to the actions of another person, and NOT a reality established in the realm of the Spirit.

Annie
03-15-2007, 10:10 AM
Well, I guess this is a 'taboo' subject...not one response from a woman who trims her hair.

I was SO strong about this years ago- and now it's becoming fuzzy and cloudy. I was hoping for some knowledgable input from folks who have 'been there' and 'done that'...42 views and 7 responses- are we afraid of the ambush, ladies??

Thanks anyways!! :tiphat

Chan
03-15-2007, 10:26 AM
What are your thoughts on those who are considered "rebellious" they don't line up to the pastor? Not things that are mandated by the Word, but things the pastor requires... I'd say when it comes to those things that if you don't think you could live up to what the pastor teaches outside of the bible, then you would be safe to go a find another church...(and not church hopping either).. what do you think?
As I asked earlier, rebellion against whom? I can see how some might claim one is in rebellion against one's pastor or local church for not following what's taught but that isn't necessarily the same thing as rebellion against God. Where local church teachings are consistent with God's word, rebellion against those teachings could be considered rebellion against God. The Bible does command us to obey those who have the rule over us and the passage was referring to rule in the Church. Where church teachings are not consistent with the word of God (such as those churches teaching against beards), Peter's statement comes to mind to the effect of "Whether it's right for us to obey God or obey men, you judge."

Coonskinner
03-15-2007, 10:42 AM
For my second posting risk of the morning....
in the face-hair-on-men thread now somewhere back around page 7-9, I was stirred by a posting response made by poster "Coonskinner"; I am copying into this post because I think it is asking the same thing as this thread is asking, albeit, with a male at the center rather than a female.



I am greatly interested in the part of your statement that I bolded above.

You words express an understanding that, operating within your calling and election in God, that YOU CAN DETERMINE what is and what is NOT rebellion.

This would make the issue of rebellion a purposed decision made by the recipient [protagonist] of the preceived rebellion NOT a condition of the person's heart [antagonist].

This is a dramatic departure from the way I was taught rebellion existed. I was always taught it was a "spirit of rebellion". With you comment, a spirit of rebellion could be made an issue or NOT made an issue. The only environment were something could be made or not made, is within the realm of men's dominion.

This post invites consideration of whether what is often called rebellion is actually a decision made by a man, with respect to the actions of another person, and NOT a reality established in the realm of the Spirit.

The Scripture says, "Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath."

I think that is good advice for pastors too.

The Scripture gives the ministry the responsibility of taking oversight of the flock. Included in that responsibility is the setting of certain guidelines for the local assembly, through the prayerful application of Scriptural principles.

I do not personally feel that, regarding the issue you brought up, I could make it a test of fellowship, and thereby provoke to wrath.

The provoker is not blameless, and neither is the one who is provoked.

Titus_2_3
03-15-2007, 10:51 AM
So, you were saved by works and NOT by grace?
:tiphat
I obeyed Acts 2:38 I repented of my sins, was baptised in the name of Jesus for the remission of my sins and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
But Faith without works is dead.
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13: 17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Chan
03-15-2007, 10:55 AM
:tiphat
I obeyed Acts 2:38 I repented of my sins, was baptised in the name of Jesus for the remission of my sins and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
But Faith without works is dead.
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13: 17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.It isn't faith that saves us, it's grace that saves us; faith is just the means through which grace saves. The Bible doesn't say "by faith you were saved." Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis mine).

RevDWW
03-15-2007, 11:00 AM
It isn't faith that saves us, it's grace that saves us; faith is just the means through which grace saves. The Bible doesn't say "by faith you were saved." Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis mine).

Luke 7:44 - Luke 7:50 (KJV) 44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Chan
03-15-2007, 11:05 AM
Luke 7:44 - Luke 7:50 (KJV) 44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
So, you're ripping this passage out of its context to say that it is OUR FAITH that saves us and NOT God's grace? (NOTE THAT THIS IS A QUESTION, NOT A STATEMENT).

IF SO, THEN....

Ah, yes, the modern gospel of "All you have to do is believe." How many souls will be burning in the lake of fire if that's what you're preaching?

Michael The Disciple
03-15-2007, 11:09 AM
Before the thread gets either joked out of existence or to far off topic let me ask this question.

Where is the scripture that says a woman cannot trim her hair? I know where the one is that says long hair is her glory.

RevDWW
03-15-2007, 11:10 AM
So, you're ripping this passage out of its context to say that it is OUR FAITH that saves us and NOT God's grace? (NOTE THAT THIS IS A QUESTION, NOT A STATEMENT).

IF SO, THEN....

Ah, yes, the modern gospel of "All you have to do is believe." How many souls will be burning in the lake of fire if that's what you're preaching?

It's not out of context at all, and you are quick to jump to conclusions. :winkgrin

Pragmatist
03-15-2007, 11:10 AM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????


I don't remember the first time I trimmed my hair. I never felt a sense of loss and it never bothered me. My only concern was what other church people might think, since many believe it to be wrong.

MrsMcD
03-15-2007, 11:16 AM
Well, I guess this is a 'taboo' subject...not one response from a woman who trims her hair.

I was SO strong about this years ago- and now it's becoming fuzzy and cloudy. I was hoping for some knowledgable input from folks who have 'been there' and 'done that'...42 views and 7 responses- are we afraid of the ambush, ladies??

Thanks anyways!! :tiphat

Annie,

I use to believe that it was a hell issue. Then I studied the hair doctrine for myself. No longer do I believe it is heaven and hell. However, I do believe that if someone has a conviction against it, they shouldn't do it. I do believe women should have long hair. After all, it is our glory. And it isn't much glory balled up on top of someone's head.

I am UPC. I do trim my hair. My pastor does not preach standards. We have people on the platform and in leadership positions that trim their hair. It is long but trimmed. I personally know pastors in UPC that do not believe it is a heaven and hell issue. I am a UPC pastor's daughter. My husband is a minister. I think the pastors that don't believe it is heaven or hell, just don't deal with it unless asked.

On the other hand, I know plenty of UPC pastors that believe you WILL go to hell for trimming your hair.

No one can decide what is right or wrong for you. You have to put aside everything you have been brainwashed with and decide for yourself. You may come to conclusion that you feel it is wrong to trim it and if so, so be it. Good luck.

MrsMcD
03-15-2007, 11:16 AM
Before the thread gets either joked out of existence or to far off topic let me ask this question.

Where is the scripture that says a woman cannot trim her hair? I know where the one is that says long hair is her glory.

Let me know when you find it. :slaphappy

Chan
03-15-2007, 11:21 AM
It's not out of context at all, and you are quick to jump to conclusions. :winkgrin
If it isn't out of context, the Bible contradicts itself. And I didn't draw any conclusions in asking what I asked. Asking questions is not the same as drawing conclusions and I would have expected you to know the difference.

originalsecretplace
03-15-2007, 11:24 AM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????


In our church we were never taught that we couldn't trim our hair. It was not a subject that was preached on ever, really. We were taght in Bible studies that a woman should have long hair. People had differeing opinions on the subject of trimming. I always did trim my hair. We have many black women in our church (one being my DIL) who perm, trim and put alot of prducts in their haier to keep it managable.

I have a friend who listened to some tapes by a well known preacher who preached on women's standards. She decided when listening to these tapes that she would no longer trim her hair. After she made that decision she started to feel a feeling of bondage. It got worse and she studied scripture and then she decided to trim her hair again. She said the bondage was removed immediately. She felt God was telling her that this teaching was one of bondage and biblically incorrect.

Margies3
03-15-2007, 11:45 AM
If you are not trimming your hair because you think that leaving it untrimmed will earn your way into heaven, then you might as well go ahead and trim it. Shoot, you might as well shave it off!! You cannot "EARN" your way to heaven by following the rules of the church. You will only make it into heaven because of the what Jesus did for us on the cross. The grace that He extended to us by way of Calvary is the only means of salvation.

On the flip side, tho, if you are not trimming your hair because you truly believe that leaving it untrimmed is pleasing to God and your desire is to please Him above all else, then I honor that decision.

Just don't ever make the mistake of believing that what you do with your hair will buy your salvation.

MissBrattified
03-15-2007, 11:54 AM
Rebellion is disobedience...disobedience to God, disobedience to authority, disobedience to parents...etc.

I think, simplistically speaking, that when a woman believes that her hair shouldn't be cut, and she backslides and cuts it, that is an act of rebellion against God, because she is going against her own commitments to God and her professed conviction on that issue.

However, a person can change their mind, or be convinced or persuaded to a different point of view without it being "rebellion" or even backsliding.

Also, if a person never held the view to begin with, and were only abiding by the church rules, then it is not rebellion against God (from their perspective), but rather a rebellion (or at the very least a statement) against the church they are/were attending.

We attended a very strict church for awhile, and they didn't believe in women wearing denim, bows in their hair, or married women wearing their hair down. After we left the church (that assembly...not the church in general), I immediately went back to wearing my hair down, wearing my comfy denim and putting the occasional pretty clip or scarf in my hair. Was that rebellion? Of course not! We no longer attended the church, so whose authority would I be rebelling against? Certainly not God's, since there's no scripture against any of those things. And since we had a different pastor who didn't hold those sentiments, we weren't rebelling against our pastor either.

Now...that said...I think some people DO cut their hair, put on makeup, grow their hair long, put on jewelry, wear shorts, put on tank tops, and do everything else they can think of to flout the rules because they are rebellious. That is especially the case if they disobey the rules while still attending or belonging to a particular assembly.

If a person leaves the church or leaves the assembly, they have removed themselves from the authority of the pastor and church (in my opinion), and if there's any rebellion to pinpoint it would only be in reference to God Himself.

You brought up hair in particular, and here's my take: I have friends who keep their hair long, but they still trim the ends. However, their conviction based on scripture is that they should have long hair, (as opposed to uncut hair), and they are abiding by their convictions. I respect them for it, and I don't pick at their beliefs. To me, that's equivalent to one person believing skirts should be below the knees and another believing they ought to be at least to the calves.

QueenEsther
03-15-2007, 12:07 PM
Rebellion is disobedience...disobedience to God, disobedience to authority, disobedience to parents...etc.

I think, simplistically speaking, that when a woman believes that her hair shouldn't be cut, and she backslides and cuts it, that is an act of rebellion against God, because she is going against her own commitments to God and her professed conviction on that issue.

However, a person can change their mind, or be convinced or persuaded to a different point of view without it being "rebellion" or even backsliding.

Also, if a person never held the view to begin with, and were only abiding by the church rules, then it is not rebellion against God (from their perspective), but rather a rebellion (or at the very least a statement) against the church they are/were attending.

We attended a very strict church for awhile, and they didn't believe in women wearing denim, bows in their hair, or married women wearing their hair down. After we left the church (that assembly...not the church in general), I immediately went back to wearing my hair down, wearing my comfy denim and putting the occasional pretty clip or scarf in my hair. Was that rebellion? Of course not! We no longer attended the church, so whose authority would I be rebelling against? Certainly not God's, since there's no scripture against any of those things. And since we had a different pastor who didn't hold those sentiments, we weren't rebelling against our pastor either.

Now...that said...I think some people DO cut their hair, put on makeup, grow their hair long, put on jewelry, wear shorts, put on tank tops, and do everything else they can think of to flout the rules because they are rebellious. That is especially the case if they disobey the rules while still attending or belonging to a particular assembly.

If a person leaves the church or leaves the assembly, they have removed themselves from the authority of the pastor and church (in my opinion), and if there's any rebellion to pinpoint it would only be in reference to God Himself.

You brought up hair in particular, and here's my take: I have friends who keep their hair long, but they still trim the ends. However, their conviction based on scripture is that they should have long hair, (as opposed to uncut hair), and they are abiding by their convictions. I respect them for it, and I don't pick at their beliefs. To me, that's equivalent to one person believing skirts should be below the knees and another believing they ought to be at least to the calves.


As usual.....well said!

QueenEsther
03-15-2007, 12:09 PM
One thing I would like to add in (not necessarily to what Annie asked though) is that just because a preacher/person/pastor believes that it truly is a sin to cut your hair it does not mean he is brainwashing anyone - if he truly believes it in his heart. He is doing his best to see that his congregation makes it to heaven. I know of pastors who would change their beliefs on the spot of they felt God led them to believe differently. Maybe they are not all that way but there are some who are. Thank God for the sincere ones!!!

Annie
03-15-2007, 12:47 PM
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread- it helps to hear other thoughts and opinions.

Ravens
03-15-2007, 01:42 PM
Rebellion is disobedience...disobedience to God, disobedience to authority, disobedience to parents...etc.

I think, simplistically speaking, that when a woman believes that her hair shouldn't be cut, and she backslides and cuts it, that is an act of rebellion against God, because she is going against her own commitments to God and her professed conviction on that issue.

However, a person can change their mind, or be convinced or persuaded to a different point of view without it being "rebellion" or even backsliding.

Also, if a person never held the view to begin with, and were only abiding by the church rules, then it is not rebellion against God (from their perspective), but rather a rebellion (or at the very least a statement) against the church they are/were attending.

We attended a very strict church for awhile, and they didn't believe in women wearing denim, bows in their hair, or married women wearing their hair down. After we left the church (that assembly...not the church in general), I immediately went back to wearing my hair down, wearing my comfy denim and putting the occasional pretty clip or scarf in my hair. Was that rebellion? Of course not! We no longer attended the church, so whose authority would I be rebelling against? Certainly not God's, since there's no scripture against any of those things. And since we had a different pastor who didn't hold those sentiments, we weren't rebelling against our pastor either.

Now...that said...I think some people DO cut their hair, put on makeup, grow their hair long, put on jewelry, wear shorts, put on tank tops, and do everything else they can think of to flout the rules because they are rebellious. That is especially the case if they disobey the rules while still attending or belonging to a particular assembly.

If a person leaves the church or leaves the assembly, they have removed themselves from the authority of the pastor and church (in my opinion), and if there's any rebellion to pinpoint it would only be in reference to God Himself.

You brought up hair in particular, and here's my take: I have friends who keep their hair long, but they still trim the ends. However, their conviction based on scripture is that they should have long hair, (as opposed to uncut hair), and they are abiding by their convictions. I respect them for it, and I don't pick at their beliefs. To me, that's equivalent to one person believing skirts should be below the knees and another believing they ought to be at least to the calves.

Great post. . .
The bolded part brings up something I remember from when I was younger and questioned the 'hair issue'. . .how long is long? It was explained to me this way: One person's interpretation of long hair/how long can be very different from the next. As long as hair was uncut, then it's long. . .however long it grows on its own w/out having been cut.

QueenEsther
03-15-2007, 02:08 PM
If we MUST have LONG hair to be saved them my mama is NOT saved and she hasn't cut her hair for 23 years!!! Her hair barely covers her shoulders yet it is uncut. If she trimmed it it would be even shorter. She had long hair while growing up and when she was like 19 she chopped it off above her shoulders and it has NEVER grew back to the same length - only a couple of inches and she is now 48!!!

Sherri
03-15-2007, 02:40 PM
Well, my hair was never long, although when I was young I always wanted to have that beautiful LONG Pentecostal hair. When I finally decided to cut mine, it was only about shoulder length (after 15 years or so of never touching it). I only had the bangs cut first, and felt so relieved that I could actually do something with it!! Later, I did end up cutting it, and have kept it cut, but I do not feel convicted by it at all; only condemnation from a few people at first.

My hair is so much healthier now than it used to be. All those years I didn't cut it, my "glory" was dead, broken-off, and in pitiful shape. It was because I have very thin, fine hair and it never looked good until I kept it trimmed. Years of wearing it up had nearly ruined it. I can't even imagine going back to those days, but I respect anyone who feels that they need to.

Coonskinner
03-15-2007, 02:41 PM
In our church we were never taught that we couldn't trim our hair. It was not a subject that was preached on ever, really. We were taght in Bible studies that a woman should have long hair. People had differeing opinions on the subject of trimming. I always did trim my hair. We have many black women in our church (one being my DIL) who perm, trim and put alot of prducts in their haier to keep it managable.

I have a friend who listened to some tapes by a well known preacher who preached on women's standards. She decided when listening to these tapes that she would no longer trim her hair. After she made that decision she started to feel a feeling of bondage. It got worse and she studied scripture and then she decided to trim her hair again. She said the bondage was removed immediately. She felt God was telling her that this teaching was one of bondage and biblically incorrect.

Well, I guess that settles it. :)

Annie
03-15-2007, 03:26 PM
In our church we were never taught that we couldn't trim our hair. It was not a subject that was preached on ever, really. We were taght in Bible studies that a woman should have long hair. People had differeing opinions on the subject of trimming. I always did trim my hair. We have many black women in our church (one being my DIL) who perm, trim and put alot of prducts in their haier to keep it managable.

I have a friend who listened to some tapes by a well known preacher who preached on women's standards. She decided when listening to these tapes that she would no longer trim her hair. After she made that decision she started to feel a feeling of bondage. It got worse and she studied scripture and then she decided to trim her hair again. She said the bondage was removed immediately. She felt God was telling her that this teaching was one of bondage and biblically incorrect.


I have to tell you- I detest that term. Whenever I hear folk tout 'bondage' due to dress preferences set by their pastor- I cringe. I do not feel that I in bondage- not in the least, by ANY of the standards that I keep.

It's difficult to dicipher my feelings right now. When you have been taught something is wrong and salvational allllll of your life, and then, over time you see some of the same men that were against it, discount it because someone gets 'headaches' and such...it makes me leery if it ever was salvic to begin with. I have honored the wishes of my parents and my pastors, in regards to the uncut hair doctrine. Where I am struggling is, the reality of the ones I love being lost because they have chosen to cut theirs. It breaks my heart to think of anyone being lost for eternity, and I just want ASSURANCE from God that all is well. I'm not getting it in prayer, and I am sad beyond words.

Has anyone else been in this situation before that can maybe PM me with some encouragement in this situation??? I am sincerely NOT pointing fingers at anyone. Like I said- I have friends who have cut hair, and I don't think twice about it- but, this is my child- and I am confused, and sad. ANd I have to wonder WHY the difference? Why am I not sad for my friends?

????

Felicity
03-15-2007, 03:42 PM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????We had a thread started with almost the same question you ask here.

I asked at that time ....... "Why do women cut their hair? Is it because they are consciously and deliberately wanting to be rebellious - to be disobedient - to disrespect and dishonour God and their husbands?"

I personally think not - not in most cases anyhow.

The conscience IS definitely formed to a large extent around how and what a person has been taught so unless you're absolutely sure of what Scripture is teaching and have a strong conviction that haircutting is not a sin nor is it displeasing to the Lord then you are very apt to feel the sting of conscience.

There IS a difference between conscience and conviction.

Just a few quick thots ...... BUT..... I am not going to tell ANY woman they should or ought cut their hair. I will tell them if I feel it's wisdom my understanding and knowledge of Scripture and what I feel Paul was teaching in its proper context and in the custom and culture of that day.

Annie
03-15-2007, 03:48 PM
We had a thread started with almost the same question you ask here.

I asked at that time ....... "Why do women cut their hair? Is it because they are consciously and deliberately wanting to be rebellious - to be disobedient - to disrespect and dishonour God and their husbands?"

I personally think not - not in most cases anyhow.

The conscience IS definitely formed to a large extent around how and what a person has been taught so unless you're absolutely sure of what Scripture is teaching and have a strong conviction that haircutting is not a sin nor is it displeasing to the Lord then you are very apt to feel the sting of conscience.

There IS a difference between conscience and conviction.

Just a few quick thots ...... BUT..... I am not going to tell ANY woman they should or ought cut their hair. I will tell them if I feel it's wisdom my understanding and knowledge of Scripture and what I feel Paul was teaching in its proper context and in the custom and culture of that day.


My apologies, I should have done some research before starting the thread. I was fresh out of my prayer time, and still feeling the heaviness of a burden, and posted without deep thought.

Thank you so much for your response- as usual, you make sense.

Titus_2_3
03-15-2007, 05:11 PM
I don't remember the first time I trimmed my hair. I never felt a sense of loss and it never bothered me. My only concern was what other church members thought .

Maybe that was the convicting power of the HOLY GHOST making you feel that way.

Pragmatist
03-15-2007, 07:43 PM
I don't remember the first time I trimmed my hair. I never felt a sense of loss and it never bothered me. My only concern was what other church members thought .

Maybe that was the convicting power of the HOLY GHOST making you feel that way.

No, because then I would have felt that whether I was attending a UPC church or not. I do know what Holy Ghost conviction is and respond to it. Trust me, I'm much more concerned with God's opinion than man's.

Felicity
03-15-2007, 08:10 PM
My apologies, I should have done some research before starting the thread. I was fresh out of my prayer time, and still feeling the heaviness of a burden, and posted without deep thought.

Thank you so much for your response- as usual, you make sense.Sorry Annie. I posted in a hurry and slightly distracted from work. The thread I referred to in my post was started on NFCF. Not on this forum.

:)

BoredOutOfMyMind
03-16-2007, 12:02 AM
The question remains- Is coloring your hair a different color different than cutting it?

Is this a lie, for you are now presenting something not true?

Felicity
03-16-2007, 12:08 AM
The question remains- Is coloring your hair a different color different than cutting it?

Is this a lie, for you are now presenting something not true?Same thing if you use a tinted cover up of some type to hide a pimple. Silly example you might say BUT ....... I can think of other examples also that are all about aesthetics.

:)

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:09 AM
The question remains- Is coloring your hair a different color different than cutting it?

Is this a lie, for you are now presenting something not true?


Sure, just the same as men or women who wear slimming outfits to make it appear they are thinner than they really are, wear perfume or cologne or wear deodorant as to cover up how they really smell, and people who wear contacts instead of glasses so people won't know they are sight challenged in some degree!

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:21 AM
Well, I guess this is a 'taboo' subject...not one response from a woman who trims her hair.

I was SO strong about this years ago- and now it's becoming fuzzy and cloudy. I was hoping for some knowledgable input from folks who have 'been there' and 'done that'...42 views and 7 responses- are we afraid of the ambush, ladies??

Thanks anyways!! :tiphat

I used to feel the same as you do now. I was astounded that there were people out in the world that couldn't see the obvious as I did. I mean, the Bible plainly says that women cannot cut their hair, so how can anyone miss it?

Well, that's where I was wrong. See, I'd been taught it all my life and without reading it for myself, I took my pastor at his word (as he taught us to do). I preached it to others as well. When I got the internet in 1998, I had another venue to preach from.

For at least two years, I argued and discussed as nauseum on newsgroups about this issue. It was so plain, but some wouldn't see it. Instead, they asked me for scripture. Scripture? Why didn't they just believe me like I'd believed my pastor? Why did they need scripture?

That may sound funny to you, but I seriously didn't understand. So I took their challenge just to prove I was right. Then they would see.

Well, it didn't work that way. I am still unable to find those scriptures that my pastor told me where there. I had to come to a conclusion. What I'd been taught wasn't true, and if it wasn't true, then it was a lie.

Since coming to the GNC in 2002, and then to FCF, I learned a lot more that I'd been taught also wasn't in the Bible. I continue learning, but it's not all negative. In fact, I've learned more on the positive side of my salvation than not.

I'm grateful for those who have helped me, even if they aren't aware.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:27 AM
It isn't faith that saves us, it's grace that saves us; faith is just the means through which grace saves. The Bible doesn't say "by faith you were saved." Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis mine).

Faith can also save without the mention of grace.

Lu 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Lu 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:29 AM
So, you're ripping this passage out of its context to say that it is OUR FAITH that saves us and NOT God's grace? (NOTE THAT THIS IS A QUESTION, NOT A STATEMENT).

IF SO, THEN....

Ah, yes, the modern gospel of "All you have to do is believe." How many souls will be burning in the lake of fire if that's what you're preaching?

This coming from someone who constantly accuses people of claiming that he's said something they received by implication, and now he does it to someone else.

Chan, know what assumption does?

Carpenter
03-16-2007, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Pragmatist
I don't remember the first time I trimmed my hair. I never felt a sense of loss and it never bothered me. My only concern was what other church members thought .


Maybe that was the convicting power of the HOLY GHOST making you feel that way.

If you ask me, this is the most disgusting attitude, concept, and perspective in the entire religious culture of the apostolic church!

Who on earth do you think you are by trying to dress up the grace and mercy of God with the black robes of judgement?

Well, I guess we can just throw scripture out the window..."there is therefore now no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."

The last time I checked, God did not use the judgement and condemnation of man to influence or even force people into subjection, I would even go so far as to say it is religious oppression and legalism at its worst and it makes me sick!

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:37 AM
Great post. . .
The bolded part brings up something I remember from when I was younger and questioned the 'hair issue'. . .how long is long? It was explained to me this way: One person's interpretation of long hair/how long can be very different from the next. As long as hair was uncut, then it's long. . .however long it grows on its own w/out having been cut.

I have no idea who defined it that way, but it really makes no sense. The reason being, most men cut their hair about every 6-8 weeks. This means their hair is uncut during that time, making them fit the definition of 'long' as defined above.

I had my head shaved for brain surgery after having hair to my bum for several years. I visited my mom's church about two months later and was shocked when someone made the comment 'Don't worry, your hair is long in God's eyes' to me!! I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying, 'What???'

Tis true. My hair was uncut for about five months after my surgery, meaning that I had long hair during that time, in spite of the fact that my hair is longer today, yet I just had it trimmed last week. Go figure.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:41 AM
Maybe that was the convicting power of the HOLY GHOST making you feel that way.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone say that to me.......LOL!

Why is this a typical response when someone is concerned about what other people think? I would think if it was the Holy Ghost convicting her, she'd have felt a loss or something like a guilty conscience when she had it cut, yet she denies this in her post.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:42 AM
If you ask me, this is the most disgusting attitude, concept, and perspective in the entire religious culture of the apostolic church!

Who on earth do you think you are by trying to dress up the grace and mercy of God with the black robes of judgement?

Well, I guess we can just throw scripture out the window..."there is therefore now no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."

The last time I checked, God did not use the judgement and condemnation of man to influence or even force people into subjection, I would even go so far as to say it is religious oppression and legalism at its worst and it makes me sick!

You should learn how to speak your mind and quit beating around the bush all the time!

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 12:44 AM
"there is therefore now no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."



You know, I've heard conviction preached about in relation to someone doing something that was preached against, especially standards, yet the word 'conviction' isn't even in the Bible. Where does that teaching come from?

Carpenter
03-16-2007, 01:12 AM
You should learn how to speak your mind and quit beating around the bush all the time!

It doesn't happen very often, but sometimes someone puts a wolverene under my saddle and this is one of those times...

How many people do you think this kind of attitude has chased away from the church?

I would venture a guess...quite a few.

This is why so many preachers don't have to preach standards anymore, there are enough people in the congregation with the power of a condemning look to maintain compliance for them.


...but don't get me started.

Praxeas
03-16-2007, 03:11 AM
I have no idea who defined it that way, but it really makes no sense. The reason being, most men cut their hair about every 6-8 weeks. This means their hair is uncut during that time, making them fit the definition of 'long' as defined above.

I had my head shaved for brain surgery after having hair to my bum for several years. I visited my mom's church about two months later and was shocked when someone made the comment 'Don't worry, your hair is long in God's eyes' to me!! I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying, 'What???'

Tis true. My hair was uncut for about five months after my surgery, meaning that I had long hair during that time, in spite of the fact that my hair is longer today, yet I just had it trimmed last week. Go figure.
I think the definition of long is simply to allow it to be as long as it can get....

BTW the greek word there is not the greek word for long...it's actually one greek word translated "long hair", not two greek words for long and hair and is only used in these two verses

Vines says signifies "to let the hair grow long, to wear long hair,"

Praxeas
03-16-2007, 03:13 AM
You know, I've heard conviction preached about in relation to someone doing something that was preached against, especially standards, yet the word 'conviction' isn't even in the Bible. Where does that teaching come from?

Joh 8:9 And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Truly Blessed
03-16-2007, 05:17 AM
If Admin feels the need to move this elsewhere, then so be it...

I have heard all of my life, that when a lady backslides and cuts her hair, then she is 'acting out in rebellion'. Has anyone else ever heard this stated?
Where does this line of thinking come from, and is there BIBLE scripture for it?

I believe the uncut hair doctrine, and have never cut my hair...however, I have good friends that are BUSY in the Kingdom (in Apostolic UPCI churches) that keep their hair trimmed. I cannot say that they are going to Hell for it- but, it's a risk that I am not willing to take...

I have mixed feelings about the hair...there is a certain fear in my heart, when I am tempted to trim some off, in an effort to make it look healthier. Does this fear stem from my HG, or from outer influences? When my daughter cut hers- I felt SOOOOOO sad inside, like a part of me died. I'm serious!!! Why is THAT???? I still feel sad when I see it.

I know I am not alone in my feelings. To those of you that TRIM your hair- did you feel a sense of loss the first time, and then it got easier each time you trimmed it? Or does it bother you each trim???

I don't want this to become a debate- I would like some serious, honest discussion about this subject...

In my opinion, men cannot relate to this particular question that I ask- they have never fought this battle...

Any input??????When something has been taught to you for many years as a sin, it is inevitable that you will wrestle with even trimming your hair to make it healthier and able in some cases to even grow longer. I have had to help women deal with the sense of lingering guilt that tends to hang on even after someone has accepted that the Bible does not teach that it is a sin. I wish preachers would take time to Scripturally identify what is called sin versus what they have labelled sin. It would certainly make for a healthier walk with God for most women.

I liken this guilt issue to how I used to feel growing up with no TV. Our church preached it was a sin, and my parents did not have one all the years their children were still at home. However, my sister who lived across the street had one so we would go there some evenings to watch Rawhide and other family viewing shows. I never felt one bit convicted about doing so while watching TV. It was only when my father would ask where I had been that I felt any guilt. Or when I went to church and the pastor preached against it, I would once again feel condemnation. I finally came to the conclusion that it wasn't God who was convicting me, but man and discovered for myself that TV in itself is not a sin.

When women figure this out in regards to hair, they get over the condemnation of man and live as unto the Lord and enjoy the blessings of a pure conscience. You don't have to have uncut hair to be in Christ, but you do to be in some churches, so a person has to decide whether they are going to accept the hair issue as a sin issue or not. If their pastor teaches against it, they have a responsibility to live up to his requirements if they consider themselves an active member of his church. Otherwise they need to find a church where it is not an issue.

Since you say you believe the uncut hair teaching, then of course you will experience guilt associated with you violating your conscience, or uneasy when someone else commits what you see as sinful.

tbpew
03-16-2007, 07:45 AM
If you ask me, this is the most disgusting attitude, concept, and perspective in the entire religious culture of the apostolic church!

Who on earth do you think you are by trying to dress up the grace and mercy of God with the black robes of judgement?

Well, I guess we can just throw scripture out the window..."there is therefore now no condemnation to those who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit."

The last time I checked, God did not use the judgement and condemnation of man to influence or even force people into subjection, I would even go so far as to say it is religious oppression and legalism at its worst and it makes me sick!

Carp,
Is this post a work of the Spirit?
Does it offer its own, alternately-sourced, form of condemnation?

Isn't is possible that along the continum of possible condemning actions, a person who condemns another for judging what they do with their own hair AND another who a makes determination that a nebulous "religious oppression and legalism" is at work, can both be found as having there purpose in bringing condemnation.

IMO, both involve the judgements (subscribing motive) of men against the actions of men.

Carpenter
03-16-2007, 09:16 AM
Carp,
Is this post a work of the Spirit?
Does it offer its own, alternately-sourced, form of condemnation?

Isn't is possible that along the continum of possible condemning actions, a person who condemns another for judging what they do with their own hair AND another who a makes determination that a nebulous "religious oppression and legalism" is at work, can both be found as having there purpose in bringing condemnation.

IMO, both involve the judgements (subscribing motive) of men against the actions of men.

Descernment and differentiating between what is evil and what is holy is indeed a work of the spirit

My comments were pointed more directly toward the attitudes of the Apostolic culture. The individual who wrote those comments above was only a representative of that culture. This attitude is pervasive throughout the Apostolic movement in my experience.

It is this exact perspective that gives empowerment license to people to think they are God's representatives to exact conviction...when it really is nothing more than oppression and condemnation. Further, I believe that Pastor's encourage this attitude because it keeps them from having to preach standards all the time.

tbpew
03-16-2007, 09:28 AM
Descernment and differentiating between what is evil and what is holy is indeed a work of the spirit

My comments were pointed more directly toward the attitudes of the Apostolic culture. The individual who wrote those comments above was only a representative of that culture. This attitude is pervasive throughout the Apostolic movement in my experience.

It is this exact perspective that gives empowerment license to people to think they are God's representatives to exact conviction...when it really is nothing more than oppression and condemnation. Further, I believe that Pastor's encourage this attitude because it keeps them from having to preach standards all the time.

Not exactly sure how we can surgically attack attitudes of an Apostolic culture without condemning the people who choose to continue fellowship within the larger community.

I am trying to understand if your last post is stating that, your earlier post, had NO APPLICATION to people --only attitudes. If so, how is that possible?

I am persistent voice of "we answer to our own master" and "we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

If you think my post was a clever, indirect way to advance, centralized government, by men, over men --it was not.

Chan
03-16-2007, 09:40 AM
This coming from someone who constantly accuses people of claiming that he's said something they received by implication, and now he does it to someone else.

Chan, know what assumption does?Now, go back and read what I posted. I asked a question. A question is NOT an implication. It is not accusing someone of saying anything. It is a QUESTION. Do you know what a question is? Do you know the difference between a question and a statement? It would seem that you don't know the difference given that you accuse me of receiving something "by implication."

originalsecretplace
03-16-2007, 09:48 AM
Maybe that was the convicting power of the HOLY GHOST making you feel that way.

Maybe it's her conscience weakened by wrong teaching that's making her feel that way.

Carpenter
03-16-2007, 09:48 AM
Not exactly sure how we can surgically attack attitudes of an Apostolic culture without condemning the people who choose to continue fellowship within the larger community.

I am trying to understand if your last post is stating that, your earlier post, had NO APPLICATION to people --only attitudes. If so, how is that possible?

I am persistent voice of "we answer to our own master" and "we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

If you think my post was a clever, indirect way to advance, centralized government, by men, over men --it was not.

You are saying that the people who are subject to the apostolic community and fellowship actually BECOME the embodiment of that culture and fellowship. The problem is when there is a disconnect between being able to define appropriate biblical tennant and attitudes that are nothing more than gestapo tactics.

I have made the separation between people and the attitudes and concepts designed by organization to perpetuate and preserve itself. How else on earth can you explain someone looking down their nose at someone's wedding ring with a condemning look and then that person removing it under the guise of sovereign conviction? I have never heard something so ridiculous in my entire life.

I couldn't agree more that we are "to answer to our own master" unfortunately some people can't distinguish between principalities and powers from the true and sovereign almighty God.

Chan
03-16-2007, 09:49 AM
Faith can also save without the mention of grace.

Lu 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Lu 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
So, the Bible contradicts itself? (Note that this is a question. Your job is to simply answer the question, not to accuse me of saying you're implying something).

Was Jesus really referring in these passages to what we understand to be salvation? If so, then Paul contradicted Jesus by saying it was grace that saves instead of saying that it was faith that saves. Since we KNOW that the Bible NEVER contradicts itself, the only way to reconcile this is to say that Jesus wasn't referring to salvation here.

In Luke 7:50 and 18:42, the Greek word means:

to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

MissBrattified
03-16-2007, 09:58 AM
Faith can also save without the mention of grace.

Lu 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Lu 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

HO...how can we be saved without grace? That isn't possible. :nah

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Our faith and God's grace have to meet one another.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 06:08 PM
It doesn't happen very often, but sometimes someone puts a wolverene under my saddle and this is one of those times...

How many people do you think this kind of attitude has chased away from the church?

I would venture a guess...quite a few.

This is why so many preachers don't have to preach standards anymore, there are enough people in the congregation with the power of a condemning look to maintain compliance for them.


...but don't get me started.

Oh, I totally agree with you, absolutely.

I've seen a lot of people come and go for various reasons. When they leave because their modest clothing isn't modest enough..well, it's a shame to miss heaven over such a small and unimportant issue.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 06:11 PM
Joh 8:9 And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

I didn't do a search on 'convicted', only on 'conviction', because people say those phrases often, like the one I quoted.

I didn't think to do other searches for similar usages....LOL!

However, this still doesn't give credence to the usage of that phrase.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 06:18 PM
Now, go back and read what I posted. I asked a question. A question is NOT an implication. It is not accusing someone of saying anything. It is a QUESTION. Do you know what a question is? Do you know the difference between a question and a statement? It would seem that you don't know the difference given that you accuse me of receiving something "by implication."

Give me a break. You know that wasn't simple questions you were asking, but ones that were accusational.

Accusing him of ripping pages of scripture out and putting it in the form of a question is an accusation all the same.

It's like asking someone if they have stopped beating their spouse. That question alone is accusing them of beating their spouse even though you put it in the form of a question.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 06:24 PM
So, the Bible contradicts itself? (Note that this is a question. Your job is to simply answer the question, not to accuse me of saying you're implying something).

Was Jesus really referring in these passages to what we understand to be salvation? If so, then Paul contradicted Jesus by saying it was grace that saves instead of saying that it was faith that saves. Since we KNOW that the Bible NEVER contradicts itself, the only way to reconcile this is to say that Jesus wasn't referring to salvation here.

In Luke 7:50 and 18:42, the Greek word means:

to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

No, the Bible doesn't contradict itself at all. The Bible says were are saved by grace THROUGH faith. We aren't saved by grace alone, as you implied in your post above. I also didn't say that grace wasn't involved in the examples I provided, however, it's not mentioned.

Faith is mentioned several times without mentioning works. We know that faith alone is dead faith, so even though works aren't mentioned, we know they are present for it to be true faith.

Grace saves us through faith. Both are involved, therefore, there is no contradiction in scripture.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 06:25 PM
HO...how can we be saved without grace? That isn't possible. :nah

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Our faith and God's grace have to meet one another.

I said it didn't mention grace, I didn't say grace wasn't involved. I agree with ya.

See my post above to Chan.

Pragmatist
03-16-2007, 07:25 PM
Joh 8:9 And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Yes, but notice Jesus was there, and was part of their being convicted by conscience.

HeavenlyOne
03-16-2007, 07:46 PM
Yes, but notice Jesus was there, and was part of their being convicted by conscience.

And being convicted by your conscience isn't the same as being convicted by the Holy Ghost.

I think Prax's point was in rebuttal to my saying it wasn't mentioned, when a different form of the word is.