Obama Addresses Racial "Anger"

[Jermyn Davidson]

While Obama flatly rejects the remarks of a long time influence, Pastor Jeremiah Wright, he also addressed the "anger" that many black Americans and some white Americans feel, in regards to "Race", "Inequalities", "Past Generations" and the "Current Situation". After you read his remarks, do you think he's "on target" in addressing real issues or is simply race-baiting?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080318/ap_on_el_pr/obama_race

[DividedThigh]

i dont see anything but apologetics for his pastor and his own positions which i disagree with personally, dt

[Barb]

I think Sen. Obama is desperately trying to win a nomination, and in the process realizes he MUST distance himself from the statements of his pastor.

I don't think he is "race-baiting...'

[Digging4Truth]

I hope Obama is able to get over his Racial anger.

:)

[DividedThigh]

I hope Obama is able to get over his Racial anger.

:)

me too, especially after hilary, rooks him out of the nomination, lol,dt

[TRFrance]

me too, especially after hilary, rooks him out of the nomination, lol,dt

If that happens, that would certainly kick up a storm of protest. It would look like "they took the nomination away from the black guy".

If Hillary wins the nomination the Democratic party would be so divided that John McCain would almost certainly win the election in November.

[DividedThigh]

If that happens, that would certainly kick up a storm of protest. It would look like "they took the nomination away from the black guy".

If Hillary wins the nomination the Democratic party would be so divided that John McCain would almost certainly win the election in November.

firestorm, riots, the works would result, lol,dt no kidding

[ChristopherHall]

My previous pastor ranted about how God had allowed 9/11 to take place because of liberals, gays, and abortion. He then prayed that God bring America to her knees if that’s what it takes to bring her to repentance.

Obama’s pastor ranted about how God had allowed 9/11 to take place because of the injustices America has committed against the black people. Jeremiah Wright ranted about how God should **** America over these injustices.

There's doubt in my mind that he wasn’t talking about all Americans…he’s an American. Obama’s pastor is obviously referring to what he believes is a wicked and unjust system in America.

Frankly, I don’t have an issue with either man’s statements (my previous pastors or Wright's). I believe that if America doesn’t repent of her godlessness, abortion, promiscuity, sexual perversion, economic oppression, racism, warmongering, greed, theft, and extortion God should indeed **** her, else bring her to her knees to repent.

If this was a white pastor condemning American over liberals, gays, abortion, socialism, etc. most of us would be cheering him on. But this underscores a serious problem….because the man is black and because the man is addressing wrongs that we find uncomfortable to address as white Americans we want to run him through the mud and use his sermon as political fodder to attack a Presidential contender.

I think we’re desperately close to proving his point instead of seeing how the abuse of his people still deeply affects the black community.

[TRFrance]

*sigh*
CH,
Would you like a twist of lemon with your liberal Kool-Aid?
:bubble

[BrotherEastman]

Still defending Obama?

[TRFrance]

Still defending Obama?

Methinks the brother is suffering from ODS.
(Obama Derangement Syndrome)

[ChristopherHall]

Do any of you believe we as a nation have completely treated the black people fairly and behaved toward them in a Christian manner?

What about our genocide against thousands of Native Americans. We overlook these things because our people did them. If he was an Indian he'd have the right to condemn America over this grave sin in our past also.

[Pressing-On]

While Obama flatly rejects the remarks of a long time influence, Pastor Jeremiah Wright, he also addressed the "anger" that many black Americans and some white Americans feel, in regards to "Race", "Inequalities", "Past Generations" and the "Current Situation". After you read his remarks, do you think he's "on target" in addressing real issues or is simply race-baiting?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080318/ap_on_el_pr/obama_race
He needs to point all the whiners to Condi Rice, Oprah, Barbara Jordan, etc. who accomplished things in life.

Everything Bill Cosby says is true!!!!!

My only concern is that this whole church/state thing can bite us in other areas.

It's bad to censor the church and bad for the church to say stupid things. So much involved in this issue.

[Pressing-On]

Do any of you believe we as a nation have completely treated the black people fairly and behaved toward them in a Christian manner?

What about our genocide against thousands of Native Americans. We overlook these things because our people did them. If he was an Indian he'd have the right to condemn America over this grave sin in our past also.

It's hard to respect people that have their pants hanging to their knees so I can see what color and brand of boxers they wear, and can't understand what they are saying since they refuse to use proper English. How stupid is that? :reaction

[Margies3]

Seems to me like Obama put a huge nail in his own coffin today when he addressed his pastor's words.

The stuff had gone around the internet for the last couple of months telling you how to check out the website for Obama's home church and what they believe and what they stand for. But alot of people were still sitting back watching with a touch of skepticism because there wasn't yet proof that Obama had aligned himself with that church. Today he made it clear.

And frankly, having listened to what he had to say, I was left feeling like he was actually agreeing with the pastor's rhetoric, but was saying it in such a way that he was trying to make it sound acceptable.

I'm not a Hilary fan. But I'm even less an Obama fan.

[TRFrance]

If Obama ends up losing to McCain in November, I think many of us will look back at this Jeremiah Wright thing as being the turning point that caused him to lose.

[Ferd]

well from the latest poll, it seems to have failed. seems to have made Obama more favorable to 2% while less favorable to 25%

oops.

[Fiyahstarter]

If he was an Indian he'd have the right to condemn America over this grave sin in our past also.

I think NOT! To "condemn" America? What gives with that!

It's appalling for a presidential candidate to be anti-American.

[CC1]

While Obama flatly rejects the remarks of a long time influence, Pastor Jeremiah Wright, he also addressed the "anger" that many black Americans and some white Americans feel, in regards to "Race", "Inequalities", "Past Generations" and the "Current Situation". After you read his remarks, do you think he's "on target" in addressing real issues or is simply race-baiting?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080318/ap_on_el_pr/obama_race

Have only read your initial post here and not the thead but I am betting I am not the first one to point out that Obama still has not explained his lack of judgement in attending this church and sitting under this pastor for 20 years.

No wonder his wife slipped not long ago and stated the first time she was proud of America in her adult life was now with Obama's success. I am sure sitting under that hate mongering racist pastor her head has been filled with more anti-American and anti white propaganda than can be imagined.

Bottom line is this is a case of judgement. If he didn't have the guts to change churches or to confront his Pastor's views that he now condemns how can we expect him to stand up as a leader of the Free World?

[TRFrance]

Still defending Obama?

Have only read your initial post here and not the thead but I am betting I am not the first one to point out that Obama still has not explained his lack of judgement in attending this church and sitting under this pastor for 20 years.

No wonder his wife slipped not long ago and stated the first time she was proud of America in her adult life was now with Obama's success. I am sure sitting under that hate mongering racist pastor her head has been filled with more anti-American and anti white propaganda than can be imagined.


Bingo!!
He made a sweeping speech about race in America, to deflect attention away from the key issue at hand... which is his judgment in choosing to sit under this man's pastorate, a man who spews such disgusting anti-American hatred.

Some people are already distracted by the flowery rhetorics of Obama's speech. But there are a lot of smart voters out there who havent taken their eye off the ball here.

I think this is going to cost Obama dearly. The damage has been done, and he may never recover from this. Somewhere, John McCain's people are smiling.

[Blubayou]

I listened to much of the Obama speech. I do not feel he did much but justify the the statements made by Minister Wright and why he stayed under his ministry. If Obama is elected I believe that he will further divide this country.

[TRFrance]

I listened to much of the Obama speech. I do not feel he did much but justify the the statements made by Minister Wright and why he stayed under his ministry. If Obama is elected I believe that he will further divide this country.

McCain is starting to look better and better every day.

[Mosby48]

While Obama flatly rejects the remarks of a long time influence, Pastor Jeremiah Wright, he also addressed the "anger" that many black Americans and some white Americans feel, in regards to "Race", "Inequalities", "Past Generations" and the "Current Situation". After you read his remarks, do you think he's "on target" in addressing real issues or is simply race-baiting?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080318/ap_on_el_pr/obama_race
Obama is not "race baiting". He is desperately trying to hold on to the white men who have voted Republican in the last few elections and who have been very instrumental in Obama's winning of several primaries.

[Jermyn Davidson]

It's hard to respect people that have their pants hanging to their knees so I can see what color and brand of boxers they wear, and can't understand what they are saying since they refuse to use proper English. How stupid is that? :reaction

Hopefully, that's not the first thing that comes to mind when you think of black people. If it is, then you may have to pray about why that would be the first thing that comes to your mind. Surely when I think of white people, the worst of them are not the first who come to my mind.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I listened to much of the Obama speech. I do not feel he did much but justify the the statements made by Minister Wright and why he stayed under his ministry. If Obama is elected I believe that he will further divide this country.


I believe that he thought he was shedding light on a mind set that many Americans do share (justifiably or not). I believe he wants Americans to admit to ourselves that there are issues left unresolved and that everyone has a stake and getting to the core of these issues.

[BrotherEastman]

Do any of you believe we as a nation have completely treated the black people fairly and behaved toward them in a Christian manner?

What about our genocide against thousands of Native Americans. We overlook these things because our people did them. If he was an Indian he'd have the right to condemn America over this grave sin in our past also.
So, this is your rationalization to vote for a man who has not answered as to why he allowed Pastor White to be his spiritual leader for so long? You are going to now base your vote upon how the white man treated the black man for all those years? Are you serious??????

[Jermyn Davidson]

I think NOT! To "condemn" America? What gives with that!

It's appalling for a presidential candidate to be anti-American.


I really don't think he is anti-American at all.

Isn't there anyone in your past that still has views that are "not politically correct" but still has had a positive influence on you and others around you? This is why he stated that he could not disown that Pastor or his white Grandmother, who both have serious racial issues. I suspect that in America, they are not the only black and white people who have serious racial issues.

[ChTatum]

There came a time when I had to tell my father some things he was saying were inappropriate for my son to hear.

He had a choice, stop saying them, or stop seeing his grandson.

It is why Michelle Obama slipped up, but the real tragedy is Obama's children, 6 & 9. Been there since birth. Their minds and attitudes are possibly already formed.

And the cycle continues......

[ChristopherHall]

It's hard to respect people that have their pants hanging to their knees so I can see what color and brand of boxers they wear, and can't understand what they are saying since they refuse to use proper English. How stupid is that? :reaction

Well....I don't know what to say. I was taught to respect people for the mere sake that they are human beings. It doesn't matter how one dresses or how one speaks. Many of our pastors would be judged as "dummies" by the world's standards. And yes...we dress weird compared to their standards too.

[ChristopherHall]

Seems to me like Obama put a huge nail in his own coffin today when he addressed his pastor's words.

The stuff had gone around the internet for the last couple of months telling you how to check out the website for Obama's home church and what they believe and what they stand for. But alot of people were still sitting back watching with a touch of skepticism because there wasn't yet proof that Obama had aligned himself with that church. Today he made it clear.

And frankly, having listened to what he had to say, I was left feeling like he was actually agreeing with the pastor's rhetoric, but was saying it in such a way that he was trying to make it sound acceptable.

I'm not a Hilary fan. But I'm even less an Obama fan.

Obama is a black man. He can relate to what his pastor is trying to communicate. I'm sure you could record many of our churches on any given Sunday and hear things that would make America gasp with disbelief if any of us were running for President.

Even in main line Christianity you have Zionists who advocate eliminating every Palestinian in the West Bank. That's genocide. On this very forum some have advocated executing homosexuals.

Try to "understand" instead of looking for an excuse to condemn. Wright truly believes he's people have been done wrong, have been oppressed, and are still suffering in many ways. It may be difficult...but try to see where he's coming from and judge what he says from his perspective instead of your own.

[ChristopherHall]

If Obama ends up losing to McCain in November, I think many of us will look back at this Jeremiah Wright thing as being the turning point that caused him to lose.

I think you're right. This does have the potential to seriously derail the Obama campaign.

[ChristopherHall]

I think NOT! To "condemn" America? What gives with that!

It's appalling for a presidential candidate to be anti-American.

My previous pastor condemned America for her liberalism, abortion, and homosexuality nearly a week after 9/11.

What's the deal? Are there only some sins worth condemning the nation over and others we just excuse?

America has mistreated people of color for many generations. No doubt about it. This has Wright outraged. Sure, he used stronger language that I would have used...but he's right. What America has done is a tragedy. From genocidal murdering the Indians to rounding up blacks into the bondage of slavery. From lench mobs to segregation. From child labor to legally being able to beat your wife. America hasn't always been the sterling example of a Christian nation some like to pretend she's been. Wright is just outraged at what his people have suffered. This type of thing tests our ability to understand and bridge the divide...or to pick sides and perpetuate the racial evil of our nation.

I'm white. I have the courage to say, yes, our people did them very wrong. And even after they were granted freedom we did them wrong. For several generations we purposefully stacked the deck against them. It wasn't until the mid 1900's that things began to really change for them.

I don't know what we can do now. But before we can even find what can be done...we have to admit that we've done these people whom God loves very wrong and seek to understand them.

[CC1]

Obama is a black man. He can relate to what his pastor is trying to communicate. I'm sure you could record many of our churches on any given Sunday and hear things that would make America gasp with disbelief if any of us were running for President.

Even in main line Christianity you have Zionists who advocate eliminating every Palestinian in the West Bank. That's genocide. On this very forum some have advocated executing homosexuals.

Try to "understand" instead of looking for an excuse to condemn. Wright truly believes he's people have been done wrong, have been oppressed, and are still suffering in many ways. It may be difficult...but try to see where he's coming from and judge what he says from his perspective instead of your own.

PUH-LEEZE!!!!!

It is one thing to be a typical Black leader with a victim mentality that you are hell bent on passing on to each successive generation.

It is entirely another thing to say the over the top kind of things Rev. Jeremiah has said.

He makes Jesse Jackson and Al Shaprton look like conservatives!

If this guy had just been a minister on Obama's advisory board that he was a casual acquaintance of that would be one thing.

However Obama, who claims to be the champion of "change" and a new day in America, willingly sat under the leadership of this man for over 20 years. Was married by him. Had his children baptized by him. Even one of his pastor's sermons was the inspiration for the title of one of Obama's books.

This was no mere casual acquaintance.

Associating with this large racist church was a plus for Obama as long as he was just involved in local Chicago area politics. Now that poor judgement is coming back to haunt him.

If he would not stand up to those outrageous statements by his pastor over 20 years what makes anybody think he would stand up to other wrongs as President?

[CC1]

Chris Hall,

I went to high school in Lousiana from 1973-1977. It was a small town that was looked at as a crucial test of integration as the school was almost exactly 50% white and 50% black.

My mom was a widow with little money and we lived in government housing just like many of the poor black folks of that town.

The black kids I went to school with had the EXACT same educational opportunity I was getting yet the vast majority of them chose to not do their school work, not turn in homework, not study for tests and then call the teacher racist when they flunked.

At some point you can no longer point to the fact that your great, great, great, great grandparents were slaves as an excuse to not have a work ethic and for your culture not to value education as it should.

Vietnemese boat people came to America with only the shirt on their backs and in less than one generation, usually just a decade or so, were owners of stores, retaurants, etc.

It is what a culture or group of people values and emphasizes that defines them. Not past difficulties of ancestors.

If the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the world spent half the time trying to instill a value system back into black culture as they do perpetuating the victim mentality and holding up corporations for big donations to their causes things woudl be a lot better.

I love black folks and will fight for equality of opportunity for them all day long. I just don't accept excuses that are not true.

The idea that you can't require picture ID's when voting because it would "frigthen" some black people afraid of "da man" is just absolute stupidity. If that is the case why not take a little effort to educate those people of the need for doing it rather than assuming they can't comprehend the need to protect the integrity of the vote.

No. Liberals would rather use every loophole to allow illegal aliens to vote and racist activists have one more false thing to whine about.

[ChristopherHall]

Have only read your initial post here and not the thead but I am betting I am not the first one to point out that Obama still has not explained his lack of judgement in attending this church and sitting under this pastor for 20 years.

No wonder his wife slipped not long ago and stated the first time she was proud of America in her adult life was now with Obama's success. I am sure sitting under that hate mongering racist pastor her head has been filled with more anti-American and anti white propaganda than can be imagined.

Bottom line is this is a case of judgement. If he didn't have the guts to change churches or to confront his Pastor's views that he now condemns how can we expect him to stand up as a leader of the Free World?

I've sat under three pastors. All were white.

The first died in his 80's and was a powerful man of God. But bro...he would use the "N" word in private conversations. He forbade mixed marriages and even advocated outreach only in white areas of town. When asked why his concern was that black families would bring black young men into the church and he feared for the young ladies in our church. He even made a statement once while preaching that if we weren't wise our daughters would mingle with "colored boys" and soon the abominatino of mixed babies would be dancing before the holy altar of the Lord.

My second pastor wasn't openly racist. But he refused to support a black daughter work in the West Side of Dayton. He wanted no association with it and cut off all those who got involved. Though he's supported non-black daughter works.

My third pastor appears to not have a racist bone in his body so far. He's a real good man.

I was loyal to my church. I sat through the first pastor while not agreeing with his personal opinions on race. I sat through my second pastor until the Lord impressed upon me to leave and attend the church we're currently attending.

So in a way I can sympathize with Obama. Certainly my first pastor was inspiring, powerful, and prophetic. But bro...his views on race were something I never completely bought into. So I've personally experienced what Obama is talking about. It is very possible to respect and even honor a man who you find inspiring...yet disagreeing with him on some issues such as race or politics.

[ChristopherHall]

Bingo!!
He made a sweeping speech about race in America, to deflect attention away from the key issue at hand... which is his judgment in choosing to sit under this man's pastorate, a man who spews such disgusting anti-American hatred.

Some people are already distracted by the flowery rhetorics of Obama's speech. But there are a lot of smart voters out there who havent taken their eye off the ball here.

I think this is going to cost Obama dearly. The damage has been done, and he may never recover from this. Somewhere, John McCain's people are smiling.

I think there is an effort to play on America's racial divide and use it against Obama. I for one understand that his pastor's statement have to be taken in context with consideration of the speaker's experiences, concerns, and intent.

Obama's Pastor is right...America should be "damned" if she cannot even admit she's committed atrocities against entire ethnic groups. My pastor was right, if America cannot even admit that abortion is wrong she should be judged. Frankly, both pastors, one from the right and one from the left are addressing valid moral concerns.

[CC1]

Chris Hall,

Would you have sat under a pastor for 20 years who made the statements from the pulpit that Obama's made? If so I have zero respect for you as I do anybody that would.

Not the statements your pastor made, the statements Pastor Jeremiah made.

[ChristopherHall]

So, this is your rationalization to vote for a man who has not answered as to why he allowed Pastor White to be his spiritual leader for so long? You are going to now base your vote upon how the white man treated the black man for all those years? Are you serious??????

Dude....my first pastor used the "N" word and called mixed babies an abomination. He also refused to conduct mixed weddings. I sat under him until his death. His ministry was powerful and valuable to me. Would you consider me a racist?

[Sam]

Do any of you believe we as a nation have completely treated the black people fairly and behaved toward them in a Christian manner?

What about our genocide against thousands of Native Americans. We overlook these things because our people did them. If he was an Indian he'd have the right to condemn America over this grave sin in our past also.

My answer to question number 1 would be "no."

My answer to question number 2 is that the whole idea of "manifest destiny" i.e. that God gave this land to white Protestants is wrong. Although many of our founders did indeed have "Christian" ideas, the nation was built upon genocide and "ethnic cleansing" and therefore, in my opinion, cannot be considered a "Christian nation."

At this stage of the game, how do we correct these and other wrongs? I don't know.

[CC1]

I think there is an effort to play on America's racial divide and use it against Obama. .


That may be true but leaving aside those that might rejoice at Obama stumblling for a moment and just looking at the situation objectively it is extraordinarily poor judgement for him to sit there 20 years.

Nothing you or the other libs can say changes that.

There are plenty of black churches who do not spout hatred that he could have been a member of.

Your butt is where your heart is and apparently none of this offended Obama's sensibilities enough for him to move his butt to another black church.

That is poor judgement and should cost him any chance of the Presidency.

I can just see you defending a Republican canidate who for the last 20 years had sat in a racist America hating church who lifted up the KKK. If that ever happened that guy should be flushed just as Obama should be.

[CC1]

Dude....my first pastor used the "N" word and called mixed babies an abomination. He also refused to conduct mixed weddings. I sat under him until his death. His ministry was powerful and valuable to me. Would you consider me a racist?

No one is calling Obama a racist. We are saying he has poor or no judgement to have sat under that for 20 years.

[ChristopherHall]

PUH-LEEZE!!!!!

It is one thing to be a typical Black leader with a victim mentality that you are hell bent on passing on to each successive generation.

It is entirely another thing to say the over the top kind of things Rev. Jeremiah has said.

He makes Jesse Jackson and Al Shaprton look like conservatives!

If this guy had just been a minister on Obama's advisory board that he was a casual acquaintance of that would be one thing.

However Obama, who claims to be the champion of "change" and a new day in America, willingly sat under the leadership of this man for over 20 years. Was married by him. Had his children baptized by him. Even one of his pastor's sermons was the inspiration for the title of one of Obama's books.

This was no mere casual acquaintance.

Associating with this large racist church was a plus for Obama as long as he was just involved in local Chicago area politics. Now that poor judgement is coming back to haunt him.

If he would not stand up to those outrageous statements by his pastor over 20 years what makes anybody think he would stand up to other wrongs as President?

Men and people are products of their experiences. Many blacks sincerely feel wronged and frustrated in a society that doesn't reflect their interests or concerns. Consider the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. This was a terrible wrong conducted as late as the late 1970's. Do you believe it was right? I'm sure you'll agree with me that it was an indefensible atrocity.

[ChristopherHall]

No one is calling Obama a racist. We are saying he has poor or no judgement to have sat under that for 20 years.

Would you say I had poor or no judgment for sitting under my previous pastor for nearly 10 years?

[Sam]

If Obama ends up losing to McCain in November, I think many of us will look back at this Jeremiah Wright thing as being the turning point that caused him to lose.

Don't you think the whole Jeremiah Wright thing and the realization that Obama has supported a racist semi-Christian organization/church will die out and become a non-issue by election time? How many other "Black" churches and "Black" preachers and politicians spew the same racist rhetoric but because of Hollywood and other media pressure and government "political correctness' we can't condemn it. It's part of our culture now. It is perpetuated and fueled by the "us vs. them" attitude of Black people as fueled by Black preachers/politicians.

[CC1]

Men and people are products of their experiences. Many blacks sincerely feel wronged and frustrated in a society that doesn't reflect their interests or concerns. Consider the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. This was a terrible wrong conducted as late as the late 1970's. Do you believe it was right?

Did you read my post about my High School experience in 1970's Lousiana?

[Sam]

I really don't think he is anti-American at all.

Isn't there anyone in your past that still has views that are "not politically correct" but still has had a positive influence on you and others around you? This is why he stated that he could not disown that Pastor or his white Grandmother, who both have serious racial issues. I suspect that in America, they are not the only black and white people who have serious racial issues.

He can't help who his grandmother is.
He can help who he chooses to support and sit under as a pastor.

Even Oprah felt uncomfortable in that church and had to disassociate herself from it.

[ChristopherHall]

Chris Hall,

Would you have sat under a pastor for 20 years who made the statements from the pulpit that Obama's made? If so I have zero respect for you as I do anybody that would.

Not the statements your pastor made, the statements Pastor Jeremiah made.

Pastor Jeremiah voiced that he believed that God should "**** America for treating her citizens as less than human. The Tuskegee Syphilis Study is only one example of how this has been done in American history. America has to make restitution for her sins against entire people groups be they Native American, African American, or what have you. Yes....America should repent for her racial sins down through history. America should do her best to make restitution. The way to do this is debatable but acknowledging that she has committed grave sins against these people groups and suppressed them is the first step. I wouldn't have used Rev. Jeremiah's strong language...but I've heard language just as strong in relation to abortion and gay marriage. The current pastor of the church I left uses the word the word F-A-G to refer to homosexuals over the pulpit.

I think it's real telling when our pastors can use equally inflammatory remarks quite regularly and then we gasp, fan ourselves, and act like fainting women when a black pastor speaks strongly about issues of race and atrocities committed against his people.

I think some of us need to get some thicker skin. I also think we should have the guts to say that while his language was strong his conclusion has some weight to it and we as a nation need to at least say yes, we committed a terrible atrocity against them and continued to suppress them in the following generations. At one time it was illegal to teach a black man to read in some states. This was to suppress them. We did treat them as less than human.

[ChristopherHall]

Don't you think the whole Jeremiah Wright thing and the realization that Obama has supported a racist semi-Christian organization/church will die out and become a non-issue by election time? How many other "Black" churches and "Black" preachers and politicians spew the same racist rhetoric but because of Hollywood and other media pressure and government "political correctness' we can't condemn it. It's part of our culture now. It is perpetuated and fueled by the "us vs. them" attitude of Black people as fueled by Black preachers/politicians.

I'm curious...why don't inflammatory racial remarks against Palestinians by Zionist pastors gain equal condemnation? Especially considering that many Palestinian families are good Christian people wanting to live in the land they were born, raised, and have done business in for generations. It's just a concern of mine. Do we give a free pass to racial rhetoric when spoken by white conservative leaders but act faint with disbelief if equally charged racial rhetoric is spoken by black ministers addressing concerns of black congregations?

I just find it an interesting question.

[HeavenlyOne]

Obama is a black man. He can relate to what his pastor is trying to communicate. I'm sure you could record many of our churches on any given Sunday and hear things that would make America gasp with disbelief if any of us were running for President.

Even in main line Christianity you have Zionists who advocate eliminating every Palestinian in the West Bank. That's genocide. On this very forum some have advocated executing homosexuals.

Try to "understand" instead of looking for an excuse to condemn. Wright truly believes he's people have been done wrong, have been oppressed, and are still suffering in many ways. It may be difficult...but try to see where he's coming from and judge what he says from his perspective instead of your own.

He's no more a black man than he is a white man. No excuse.

[HeavenlyOne]

PUH-LEEZE!!!!!

It is one thing to be a typical Black leader with a victim mentality that you are hell bent on passing on to each successive generation.

It is entirely another thing to say the over the top kind of things Rev. Jeremiah has said.

He makes Jesse Jackson and Al Shaprton look like conservatives!

If this guy had just been a minister on Obama's advisory board that he was a casual acquaintance of that would be one thing.

However Obama, who claims to be the champion of "change" and a new day in America, willingly sat under the leadership of this man for over 20 years. Was married by him. Had his children baptized by him. Even one of his pastor's sermons was the inspiration for the title of one of Obama's books.

This was no mere casual acquaintance.

Associating with this large racist church was a plus for Obama as long as he was just involved in local Chicago area politics. Now that poor judgement is coming back to haunt him.

If he would not stand up to those outrageous statements by his pastor over 20 years what makes anybody think he would stand up to other wrongs as President?

That's what we should all be concerned about.

[TRFrance]

Dude....my first pastor used the "N" word and called mixed babies an abomination. He also refused to conduct mixed weddings. I sat under him until his death. His ministry was powerful and valuable to me. Would you consider me a racist?

Perhaps not. But one may say you could have/should have made a statement by choosing not to sit under a preacher who spoke so hatefully of black people, whom Christ also died for.

Its not my place to tell you you should have left... But personally, I definitely would have.

...it is extraordinarily poor judgement for him to sit there 20 years.

...There are plenty of black churches who do not spout hatred that he could have been a member of.

Your butt is where your heart is and apparently none of this offended Obama's sensibilities enough for him to move his butt to another black church.

Indeed. And we keep hearing what a wonderful family man he is. Why would he want his children to be sitting under such hateful speech?


That is poor judgement and should cost him any chance of the Presidency.

Indeed. If he doesn't have the guts to deal decisively with Rev Jeremiah Wright and cut him off, how is he going to have the guts to deal firmly and decisively with Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Al Qaeda, Kim Jong Il, etc??

-----
My personal prediction... Obama is seriously damaged by this. This will cost him at least 3-4% of the total vote in November. And that may well be enough to swing the election to John McCain.

[ChristopherHall]

Did you read my post about my High School experience in 1970's Lousiana?

Yes. I agree that there are many who use being black as an excuse. However, in America today blacks still face challenges. For example, I served in the Ohio National Guard and one soldier I served with was a police officer. He was rather frank about how the police department didn't like black cops and how there was a definite disparity between how they applied the law. As an example he explained that cops were more likely to write tickets to black drivers while offering more warnings to white drivers. He said this was especially true if the black drivers were driving on the East side of the Miami. The logic was blacks were most likely up to no good if driving on the East end and ticketing them would discourage them from driving to the East side. This was only one example of something that might show how black people still face challenges in America.

[James Griffin]

Perhaps not. But one may say you could have/should have made a statement by choosing not to sit under a preacher who spoke so hatefully of black people, whom Christ also died for.

Its not my place to tell you you should have left... But personally, I definitely would have.


Indeed. And we keep hearing what a wonderful family man he is. Why would he want his children to be sitting under such hateful speech?


Indeed. If he doesn't have the guts to deal decisively with Rev Jeremiah Wright and cut him off, how is he going to have the guts to deal firmly and decisively with Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Al Qaeda, Kim Jong Il, etc??

-----
My personal prediction... Obama is seriously damaged by this. This will cost him at least 3-4% of the total vote in November. And that may well be enough to swing the election to John McCain.

It's my understanding that Obama has strongly denounced Wright, however, he also says he did not realize that Wright had preached such things.

So either he doesn't pay attention to what his spiritual leader says or he has slept through most sermons for the last 20 years. Neither scenario seems to give me much comfort.

[HeavenlyOne]

I've sat under three pastors. All were white.

The first died in his 80's and was a powerful man of God. But bro...he would use the "N" word in private conversations. He forbade mixed marriages and even advocated outreach only in white areas of town. When asked why his concern was that black families would bring black young men into the church and he feared for the young ladies in our church. He even made a statement once while preaching that if we weren't wise our daughters would mingle with "colored boys" and soon the abominatino of mixed babies would be dancing before the holy altar of the Lord.

Doesn't sound like you understand where he might have been coming from, nor his background.

I don't advocate racism, but to those who seemed racist, that wasn't it at all, but a way of life.

My granddad was born and raised in West Virginia. He called all black people by the N word. That wasn't an insult nor a slur. To him, it was just like you and I calling them black. He didn't understand what the big deal was.

He had lots of black friends that came to his house. He allowed black children to swim in his pool. He introduced his friends as 'this is my N friend, Joe'. Joe would smile, shake our hands, and tell us it was nice to meet us, and we said the same.

His friends even understood him and weren't offended.

I remember him coming to our church just south of Chicago when I was a teenager. We had about 100 black folks that attended at that time.

My mom introduced him to a military man. He happened to be black. My granddad spoke to him for several minutes, then ended with, "Brother Smith, you are the finest N man I ever met." My mom about fell on the floor, but Brother Smith, apparently understanding that it was a compliment, not an insult, replied, "Why, thank you, sir!"

My mom later apologized and started to explain, but this man was from NC, and said he understood and wasn't insulted nor upset.

Now, this doesn't mean I condone using that word if you aren't using it to be nasty, because in reality, there aren't many people alive today who would use that word as 'just a word'. I don't use it, my children don't, and we never would.

But to many elderly folks, especially those from the south, think of it as no big deal.

They used to be called 'coloreds' in the 60's. Now that's considered a slur, but to many who continue using it, it's not a big deal. That's what they were called.



So in a way I can sympathize with Obama. Certainly my first pastor was inspiring, powerful, and prophetic. But bro...his views on race were something I never completely bought into. So I've personally experienced what Obama is talking about. It is very possible to respect and even honor a man who you find inspiring...yet disagreeing with him on some issues such as race or politics.

Oh, please!! What his pastor stands for goes beyond mere racial and political issues. He speaks of America being the enemy and Obama nods his head in agreement.

You haven't personally experienced anything close to what Obama's pastor spews out from his pulpit.

[HeavenlyOne]

I think there is an effort to play on America's racial divide and use it against Obama. I for one understand that his pastor's statement have to be taken in context with consideration of the speaker's experiences, concerns, and intent.

Obama's Pastor is right...America should be "damned" if she cannot even admit she's committed atrocities against entire ethnic groups. My pastor was right, if America cannot even admit that abortion is wrong she should be judged. Frankly, both pastors, one from the right and one from the left are addressing valid moral concerns.

It isn't the white man who did this to the black man. What some don't realize is that when slavery was common in the 1800's, over 3000 slave owners were black as well! It wasn't merely a racial issue.

In addition, of all the murders that take place in this country, very few are connected to racism. The black man is killing other black men today.

Bill Cosby had it right when he said that black men cannot accuse white men of doing years ago what they continue to do to themselves today.

Also, let's not forget that Obama is as much white as he is black.

[TRFrance]

It's my understanding that Obama has strongly denounced Wright, however, he also says he did not realize that Wright had preached such things.

Not to nitpick but, I think its more accurate to say he has denounced Wright's controversial words, but not Wright himself.

He said Tuesday: "I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother", (who also used to say racist things at times). The problem with that is simple:you can't choose a new grandmother. But you can choose a new pastor. And Obama chose not to.

[ChristopherHall]

Perhaps not. But one may say you could have/should have made a statement by choosing not to sit under a preacher who spoke so hatefully of black people, whom Christ also died for.

In all honesty I didn't see it as a "disqualifying" element to his character. He was powerfully anointed. I was healed under his ministry. I was filled with the Holy Ghost under his ministry. He was anointed and could prophesy to me about things in my life he couldn't have known. My wife was filled with the Holy Ghost under his ministry. I agreed with him on maybe 99% of the time. On issues of race I didn't agree. But at the time I sincerely felt that I was planted there by God for a reason. I acknowledged that my pastor was in his 80's and that he grew up in a different time. Preachers are still men who are products of their generation. My grandfather used the "N" word and had similar feelings toward mixed marriages. It takes a little culture and a little willingness to accept men for who they are and understand that experiences shape their feelings, thoughts, and opinions.


Its not my place to tell you you should have left... But personally, I definitely would have.

God filled me with the Holy Ghost there. He was a great man...but he was a product of his generation. Even Rev. Verbal Bean made some very off color remarks about mixed couples at a camp meeting at one time. Bro....we need to really open our eyes to the reality that racism is something that has impacted generations of Americans on both sides. And with stuff like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, I think a little understanding toward Rev. Wright's condemnation of a nation who would treat her citizens as less than human would do us well. If he were condemning the Taliban for treating their citizens as less than human we'd cheer him...but he calls us on something most have largely ignored. America's treatment of races in our history is deplorable. If I were Indian or black I might even feel far more passionate about it. I think if a pastor said, "God '(****edited) America! God (***edited) America for aborting her children like they are merely lifeless blobs..." We'd understand what he was saying while to some on the left it would sound absolutely inflammatory and hateful. Likewise Obama and many black people understand Jeremiah's statements while to us they sound hateful and inflammatory.

Indeed. And we keep hearing what a wonderful family man he is. Why would he want his children to be sitting under such hateful speech?

See the last few statements above.

Indeed. If he doesn't have the guts to deal decisively with Rev Jeremiah Wright and cut him off, how is he going to have the guts to deal firmly and decisively with Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Al Qaeda, Kim Jong Il, etc??

I think it's fair to say that Obama states that he disagrees with his pastor on this and that we should allow his words to settle it. I served under a pastor I disagreed with about race for 10 years. Even today there are pastors who are racists or bigots in Apostolic circles and people sit under them while not agreeing entirely. Obama explained that he doesn't hold to his pastors most inflammatory views. For me that's enough. I'd never ask a man to "cut off" his pastor over this. I wouldn't cut off my previous pastor, though I'd admit that I don't completely agree with him on issues of race.

My personal prediction... Obama is seriously damaged by this. This will cost him at least 3-4% of the total vote in November. And that may well be enough to swing the election to John McCain.

Yes I agree. I can see that Obama will be hurt seriously by this. But what bothers me is that McCain was endorsed by a Zionist who has made equally inflammatory remarks against Palestinians...of course that's acceptable...after all that pastor is white like us. Falwell blamed 9/11 on liberals, gays, and abortion. Why not consider America's sins against blacks and Native American Indians as a factor too?

I see Rev. Jeremiah's statements as a bit radical...but I've heard equally radical statements from white guys on the right on other subjects. I think this is an example of what blacks still face. A white man can call America on her sins...but a black man call America on sins against minority races and suddenly the predominantly white media eats him alive. All of this is saying far more than we're realizing. We're almost proving Jeremiah's case for him.

[James Griffin]

Not to nitpick but, I think its more accurate to say he has denounced Wright's controversial words, but not Wright himself.

He said Tuesday: "I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother", (who also used to say racist things at times). The problem with that is simple:you can't choose a new grandmother. But you can choose a new pastor. And Obama chose not to.

Not to nitpick but don't we say hate the sin love the sinner. LOL

[HeavenlyOne]

Pastor Jeremiah voiced that he believed that God should "****" America for treating her citizens as less than human. The Tuskegee Syphilis Study is only one example of how this has been done in American history. America has to make restitution for her sins against entire people groups be they Native American, African American, or what have you. Yes....America should repent for her racial sins down through history. America should do her best to make restitution. The way to do this is debatable but acknowledging that she has committed grave sins against these people groups and suppressed them is the first step. I wouldn't have used Rev. Jeremiah's strong language...but I've heard language just as strong in relation to abortion and gay marriage. The current pastor of the church I left uses the word the word F-A-G to refer to homosexuals over the pulpit.

I think it's real telling when our pastors can use equally inflammatory remarks quite regularly and then we gasp, fan ourselves, and act like fainting women when a black pastor speaks strongly about issues of race and atrocities committed against his people.

I think some of us need to get some thicker skin. I also think we should have the guts to say that while his language was strong his conclusion has some weight to it and we as a nation need to at least say yes, we committed a terrible atrocity against them and continued to suppress them in the following generations. At one time it was illegal to teach a black man to read in some states. This was to suppress them. We did treat them as less than human.

While you continue defending something you keep going off the beaten path about that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, here are quotes from Obama about his now former pastor.....notice that you, so far, aren't even agreeing with him about his OWN former pastor:

On one end of the spectrum, we’ve heard the implication that my candidacy is somehow an exercise in affirmative action; that it’s based solely on the desire of wide-eyed liberals to purchase racial reconciliation on the cheap. On the other end, we’ve heard my former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend white and black alike. They weren’t simply a religious leader’s effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country...
Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems...


But then, he seems to contradict what he just says about the man:

As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community.

Makes you wonder why he's now his EX pastor, huh??

[COOPER]

What is wrong with white people any way?

[ChristopherHall]

While you continue defending something you keep going off the beaten path about that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, here are quotes from Obama about his now former pastor.....notice that you, so far, aren't even agreeing with him about his OWN former pastor:



But then, he seems to contradict what he just says about the man:



Makes you wonder why he's now his EX pastor, huh??

I've sat under pastors who have been men of their eras who I didn't agree with when it came to race. If I were running for President I'd condemn their statements but at the same time I too wouldn't disown them.

[ChristopherHall]

What is wrong with white people any way?

LOL

I'd vote that we sometimes fail to understand non-white people. I mean...why doesn't everyone else see things the way we do? After all...we're right. Right?

[HeavenlyOne]

I've sat under pastors who have been men of their eras who I didn't agree with when it came to race. If I were running for President I'd condemn their statements but at the same time I too wouldn't disown them.

I still don't think you are getting it.

[ChristopherHall]

I still don't think you are getting it.

Ah...but I do get it.

In America a black man running for President has to declare his pastor his EX pastor if that pastor makes statements that are unpopular to us white guys.

[HeavenlyOne]

Ah...but I do get it.

In America a black man running for President has to declare his pastor his EX pastor if that pastor makes statements that are unpopular to us white guys.

Chris, you didn't even address what he said that I quoted. How come?

Instead, you go off on bunny trails that have little or nothing to do with the subject or the post you respond to.

It's almost like you are purposely avoiding being reasonable.

[ChristopherHall]

Chris, you didn't even address what he said that I quoted. How come?

Instead, you go off on bunny trails that have little or nothing to do with the subject or the post you respond to.

It's almost like you are purposely avoiding being reasonable.

Maybe you're not being clear about what you're asking. Maybe you see something here I'm missing. Offer what it is you're hinting around at.

Obama said,

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

Obama also said,

Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we've never really worked through - a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, "The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past." We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's black and white students.

Legalized discrimination - where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments - meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today's urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families - a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods - parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement - all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.

This is the reality in which Reverend Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up. They came of age in the late fifties and early sixties, a time when segregation was still the law of the land and opportunity was systematically constricted. What's remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn't make it - those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination. That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations - those young men and increasingly young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the men and women of Reverend Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician's own failings.

And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright's sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

No doubt the RNC will exploit this and use racial tension to galvanize whites against Obama by playing on our fears. If we don't overcome this and find understanding like a mature people...I think there's little hope for America.

[ChristopherHall]

Jeremiah Wright had said,


"God ****edited America ... for killing innocent people."

"God ****edited America for threatening citizens as less than humans."

"God ***edited America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme."

Let's say this was preached by a white man wearing a suit and tie in an Apostolic church. Would these statements be so shocking? Would we agree with the premise made?

[TRFrance]

No doubt the RNC will exploit this and use racial tension to galvanize whites against Obama by playing on our fears. If we don't overcome this and find understanding like a mature people...I think there's little hope for America.

Oh please. Dont blame the RNC here.
Obama and company have practically put the loaded gun in the Republicans' hands.
Can you blame them if they decide to use it? Get real.

Obama has no one to blame but himself if this all blows up in his face.

[TRFrance]

CH....if your'e going to tell the story, tell the whole story, not bits and pieces.

Your selective memory is an issue here brother. I'm frankly sick of you defending this repugnant individual.Why is it so hard for you to see the obvious?

He is not just preaching against racial injustice. He is distorting the facts in order to stir up racial resentment and bitterness among the sheeple that listen to him. A true man of God should be putting out the fire, not pouring gasoline on it. Then again, he's not a true man of God anyway. But I digress.

Lets look at what the good Reverend said:

"The government gives them the drugs".... (the idea that crack and other illegal drugs are in urban ghettoes because the CIA planted them in black communities is a tired canard that race-baiters like Rev Wright keep on perpetuating)
...."builds bigger prisons".... (well if there are more criminals out there, whats wrong with building bigger prisons? Prison overcrowding is inhumane isn't it? Building bigger prisons isnt part of a "government plot" to stockpile black men in these prisons... although hate-mongers like Wright would like to imply that)
..."passes a 3 strike law"... (as if this was aimed specifically at African Americans. It was not).....

...and then wants us to sing God Bless America? No, no no, not God bless America. God (edited***) America!

See brother, my issue is not with you being a liberal. My issue is that you seem to be too blinded by your liberal ideology to see stuff like this for what it plainly is-- however, most decent people recognize this to be filthy disgusting race baiting. This kind of junk is stuff America needs less of, not more of. This stuff is just a snapshot of the hate-filled poison this man has preached for years.

And Obama sat in the pews for years under this junk, raising his children to sit and have this kind of poison injected into their minds. To me, this by itself makes his judgment so questionable as to immediately disqualify him from being our nation's president.

An Extra Bonus for you, sir: Still more lies and distortions from Jeremiah Wright, from another one of his sermons:

- The US government created the AIDS virus.
- America is the #1 killer in the world
- We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki and never batted an eye. (he leaves out that we were in a war at the time. This little thing called World War II)
- "We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers"
-"we only able to maintain our level of living by making sure the Third World people live in grinding poverty."
- "And, and, and… in light of these in fact God has got to be sick of this ---- " (Yes, he actually used the S-word in this sermon!)

The video is on youtube, & the transcript is here (http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/messagetopic.asp?p=7401882), if you want to see for yourself.

CH, for once, just recognize this for what it is, and call it what it is... And please.. stop making excuses for bad behavior!

[TRFrance]

Bro. Hall,
Please...
http://www.pop-arena.com/articles/mountainberry/koolaid%20017.jpg
http://www.grokdotcom.com/wp-content/uploads/jeff/koolaid1.JPG

[COOPER]

LOL

I'd vote that we sometimes fail to understand non-white people. I mean...why doesn't everyone else see things the way we do? After all...we're right. Right?

"Sit down White man, have you ever been poor, called the "n" or had to work twice as hard....

.....America is belongs to the white rich men.

We will never be happy until she is run by rich black men and the white are oppressed."

[COOPER]

He said Jesus was Black and the The Romans were Rich White man




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM&feature=related

[ChristopherHall]

Hey TRFrance, we agree that Rev. Jeremiah is not a true man of God, and if he is, he’s fallen from his calling and needs to get right.

I could go on a tirade about what the man said, denounce him, denounce anyone who finds value in his ministry, and curse, curse, and curse his church. But I can’t bring myself to do that. Then I would be throwing my share of gasoline onto the fire. You said a real man of God should seek to put out the fire. That’s what I’m attempting to do.

If you’ve ever studied the art of negotiation you’ll know this one thing to be true…perception is reality. A man can perceive that something is true and it has a powerful effect on his reality. Pastor Jeremiah perceives that many of the things you listed above are true though we know that they are not or may be being exaggerated. But let’s move deeper than what he said. Let’s move into his perceived reality. Rev. Jeremiah’s generation and the generations before them have experienced some terrible wrongs, atrocities, discriminations, lynching, etc. These things we have done to them as a nation has only conditioned them to more readily believe the most outlandish stuff about America. If we would conduct syphilis experiments on black people as late as the 1970’s….dude….it’s not that far of a jump to say that the government puts drugs on the street. Sometimes they do, especially in elaborate sting operations. Often tactics used can be seen as entrapment. Take some black young men in the inner city with little going for them who have had ties and a record in the drug world. Then have the FBI undercover agent tempt them with a big deal…big money…a chance to have things they will never have in their lives because of their record and their condition in life. They buy into it and get roped into the sting operation. The black community feels these young men were baited in a sweep to catch the big fish in the pond. We see it one way…they see it another; it’s their kids, fathers, brothers, and dads man. But with the atrocities we’ve done only solidify in their minds that we have no regard for their welfare as a people. It’s not too far of a leap to argue that if we conducted tests on them with syphilis…surely we might be willing to unleash AIDS upon them. While these things are not necessarily true…the pain, fear, frustration, and resentment is. And the very real wrongs we’ve done to them are what fuel these feelings and perceptions.

We have to deal with this perceived reality they are living. It’s not enough to just label them “race baiters” or “lunatics”. Throwing back “tit for tat” is only going to drag the problem out. We have to admit we’ve done them wrong and instead of casting it off because we may not have personally done anything; we have to take responsibility for the actions of our ancestors to some degree. Even if it is only acknowledgement of wrongs committed.

As for the years Obama spent under Jeremiah, I’m sure there is far more to Jeremiah’s ministry than we think and I’m sure that in a congregation that large not everyone agrees with him on everything he says. Even in our churches a good number of saints don’t believe every opinion of their pastor. Here’s something funny, in the church I used to attend a previous pastor preached about how Proctor & Gamble had fallen to the Satanist agenda. He mentioned it in sermons several times. I’ve also heard pastors preach about how Obama is a Muslim. Both these stories are urban legend conspiracy theories like the government unleashing AIDS or putting drugs on the streets. When I hear these things I just smile real big and realize….I know more than the cat talking does. I learned my lesson about confronting a pastor about what he says over the pulpit. I went to that previous pastor and mentioned how the Proctor & Gamble deal was an internet rumor. He refused to believe it was because he trusted the man who sent it to him. He then gave me a mild rebuke about just trusting what the pastor says without any questions and explained that if I feel differently not to breed any disunity in the body. Hey, I understood that and continued serving under him until he died.

I really think we’d be shocked to hear what’s said by pastors (black and white) on any given Sunday in America. While some of Wright’s statements are extreme and are not factual (though certainly he believes they are), they are fueled by real hurts, brought on by real wrongs.

Let’s not throw gasoline on the fire and issue our condemnations. Let’s use this as a time to become introspective and see what we can do to address the issues and perceptions that a lot of black people face in America.

As for the RNC….well…they’ll no doubt politicize it and keep the fire burning for another generation. We need to prevent them from doing that to us. We need to stand together and tell them that we’re not going to allow our fears to divided us any longer. We are the American people.

[Digging4Truth]

He said Jesus was Black and the The Romans were Rich White man




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM&feature=related

So the white man is his enemy I suppose.

And he says he is not reduced to their "hatred, bigotry & small mindedness".

Well friend... you coulda fooled me.

His whole speech was full of hatred, bigotry & small mindedness.

If Obama is going to address racial anger he needs to begin with racist bigots like this individual. He is not only a small minded racist bigot himself but he, under the cloak of religion, is perpetuating that very same mindset in a church full of people and then even farther by Fox News broadcasting it.

[Digging4Truth]

Sit down White man, have you ever been poor, called the "n" or had to work twice as hard....

.....America is belongs to the white rich men.

We will never be happy until she is run by rich black men and the white are oppressed.

Neither end of that spectrum is an answer. When one group wants to see another group under their feet then hatred prevails.

[DividedThigh]

too late on the not drinking the koolaid for our dear ch, he gargles with it i am afraid, help us lord, dt

[CC1]

I think some of us need to get some thicker skin. I also think we should have the guts to say that while his language was strong his conclusion has some weight to it and we as a nation need to at least say yes, we committed a terrible atrocity against them and continued to suppress them in the following generations. At one time it was illegal to teach a black man to read in some states. This was to suppress them. We did treat them as less than human.

So you believe his statement that America is the US of KKK is correct these last 30 years?

So you believe that the CIA created the AIDS virus to kill black men?

So you believe that the "3 Strikes" laws were created to jail black men?

So you believe that a proper response to disdain for past racism is to honor Louis Farrakan as your "man of the year"?

Incredible.

Your concept that Jeremiah Wright should be forgiven for spewing lies and hatred because of past injustices is absurd. More of liberal claptrap excusing one from personal responsibility.

We are supposed to believe that because racism has existed in our country that allows men to say anything they want no matter how outragous and untrue and we just have to accept it? You are deluded.

[Pressing-On]

We have to deal with this perceived reality they are living. It’s not enough to just label them “race baiters” or “lunatics”. Throwing back “tit for tat” is only going to drag the problem out. We have to admit we’ve done them wrong and instead of casting it off because we may not have personally done anything; we have to take responsibility for the actions of our ancestors to some degree. Even if it is only acknowledgement of wrongs committed.

The educational process is open for every man/woman in this country. If they want to live in the past there is nothing we can do about that. It's their choice. Too many have risen up before them and gone on to be great people, great Americans. I'm sick of the "woe is me" syndrome.

Who am I going to blame for the atrocities toward my Jewish ancestry? Who is going to repay me for Auswich, etc.? No one!! Do I start with Cesear? It's just part of history. I have to move on.

[Digging4Truth]

The educational process is open for every man/woman in this country. If they want to live in the past there is nothing we can do about that. It's their choice. Too many have risen up before them and gone on to be great people, great Americans. I'm sick of the "woe is me" syndrome.

Who am I going to blame for the atrocities toward my Jewish ancestry? Who is going to repay me for Auswich, etc.? No one!! Do I start with Cesear? It's just part of history. I have to move on.

Yes ma'am.

What we need to do is move on. We can't forever tie our lives to the atrocities of the past.

If there are atrocities or inequalities today then we must deal with those things. Those things cannot be allowed to continue without being met with the proper response.

But we must stop tainting generation after generation after generation for what was done in a time long past in a mindset long gone.

I do not assume that my German friend hates Jews nor do I feel that they somehow need to make some recompense for what was done long ago.

Why do we live with an ongoing assumption that whites are born with a propensity toward racism?

Why do we still require recompense for the deeds of some (not all) nearly a century and a half ago?

Why can't everyone be judged on their own deeds, their own beliefs and their own actions.

CH... you need to forgive your ancestry. To forgive is NOT to say it was okay... to forgive is to release your own guilt and need to make recompense for what you have never done.

If you are racist... then you need to deal with that.

If you are not... then there is no need for neither you nor me to pay for sins we did not commit.

We cannot move on from that place in our history until we... move on.

[Pressing-On]

Yes ma'am.

What we need to do is move on. We can't forever tie our lives to the atrocities of the past.

If there are atrocities or inequalities today then we must deal with those things. Those things cannot be allowed to continue without being met with the proper response.

But we must stop tainting generation after generation after generation for what was done in a time long past in a mindset long gone.

I do not assume that my German friend hates Jews nor do I feel that they somehow need to make some recompense for what was done long ago.

Why do we live with an ongoing assumption that whites are born with a propensity toward racism?

Why do we still require recompense for the deeds of some (not all) nearly a century and a half ago?

Why can't everyone be judged on their own deeds, their own beliefs and their own actions.

CH... you need to forgive your ancestry. To forgive is NOT to say it was okay... to forgive is to release your own guilt and need to make recompense for what you have never done.

If you are racist... then you need to deal with that.

If you are not... then there is no need for neither you nor me to pay for sins you did not commit.

We cannot move on from that place in our history until we... move on.
Amen, D4T!

[DividedThigh]

time to move on, not all people that moved here in the 1700s had slaves, my family were indentured servants in north carolina for 7 years before given freedom and moving west with the pioneers, good grief, i want some reparations for all that sweat, dt

[Pressing-On]

time to move on, not all people that moved here in the 1700s had slaves, my family were indentured servants in north carolina for 7 years before given freedom and moving west with the pioneers, good grief, i want some reparations for all that sweat, dt

Well, I think you should get it!!!

:ursofunny

[TRFrance]

So you believe his statement that America is the US of KKK is correct these last 30 years?

So you believe that the CIA created the AIDS virus to kill black men?

So you believe that the "3 Strikes" laws were created to jail black men?

So you believe that a proper response to disdain for past racism is to honor Louis Farrakan as your "man of the year"?

Incredible.

Your concept that Jeremiah Wright should be forgiven for spewing lies and hatred because of past injustices is absurd. More of liberal claptrap excusing one from personal responsibility.

We are supposed to believe that because racism has existed in our country that allows men to say anything they want no matter how outragous and untrue and we just have to accept it? You are deluded.

Thank you. Very well said.

In the end it comes down to personal accountability. Don't tell me that all of us are to be held responsible for saying untrue and outrageous things -- except if you're African American. No one should get a free pass because of things their great-granddaddy went thru.

If some Jewish rabbi was preaching against Germans today because of what happened in WWII, we'd tell him he needs to get past it, deal with the reality of today -not 60+ years ago-,and to stop preaching hate to his children.

That principle applies to all racial and ethnic groups that have suffered injustices in the past, whether Jews, African-Americans, Native Americans, Latinos, whoever. It certainly applies to Jeremiah Wright, his congregants, and all those who think like him.

Unfortunately, while liberal guilt, which Chris Hall exemplifies so well on this forum, does more harm than good, because it continues to make excuses for bad behavior. And it serves to silently enable those who want to poison the current generation with their bitterness from past.

Its hard for a man to drive to his destination in front of him, if he's spending all his time looking in the rear view mirror. That's what people like Jeremiah Wright fail to understand.

[CC1]

TRFrance,

Very well said. It is a shame these liberal apologists don't realize they are harming rather than helping these people by perpetuating the victim mentality and excusing all behaviour based on past offenses.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Doesn't sound like you understand where he might have been coming from, nor his background.

I don't advocate racism, but to those who seemed racist, that wasn't it at all, but a way of life.

My granddad was born and raised in West Virginia. He called all black people by the N word. That wasn't an insult nor a slur. To him, it was just like you and I calling them black. He didn't understand what the big deal was.

He had lots of black friends that came to his house. He allowed black children to swim in his pool. He introduced his friends as 'this is my N friend, Joe'. Joe would smile, shake our hands, and tell us it was nice to meet us, and we said the same.

His friends even understood him and weren't offended.

I remember him coming to our church just south of Chicago when I was a teenager. We had about 100 black folks that attended at that time.

My mom introduced him to a military man. He happened to be black. My granddad spoke to him for several minutes, then ended with, "Brother Smith, you are the finest N man I ever met." My mom about fell on the floor, but Brother Smith, apparently understanding that it was a compliment, not an insult, replied, "Why, thank you, sir!"

My mom later apologized and started to explain, but this man was from NC, and said he understood and wasn't insulted nor upset.

Now, this doesn't mean I condone using that word if you aren't using it to be nasty, because in reality, there aren't many people alive today who would use that word as 'just a word'. I don't use it, my children don't, and we never would.

But to many elderly folks, especially those from the south, think of it as no big deal.

They used to be called 'coloreds' in the 60's. Now that's considered a slur, but to many who continue using it, it's not a big deal. That's what they were called.



Oh, please!! What his pastor stands for goes beyond mere racial and political issues. He speaks of America being the enemy and Obama nods his head in agreement.

You haven't personally experienced anything close to what Obama's pastor spews out from his pulpit.

AAAAUUUUGHH!!!

This post makes me cringe!!!!! The fact that the people you are referring to DO NOT see calling me a "N" or "colored" as offensive IS OFFENSIVE!!!

Nothing on you, mind you-- and I am glad we are having this discussion. It only proves Obama's sentiments correct that we have a long way to when it comes to race issues.

The last PUBLIC LYNCHING" was in 1970, in Georgia. Maybe when Michelle Obama made her statement about being proud of America, she was referring to how as a country we have COME SO FAR AS TO HAVE A BLACK MAN NAMED OBAMA as a serious contender for the white house.

As a whole, "Coloreds", and "N" historically was not heard in a positive way by the "Colored" or "N" person who heard it from the mouth of a white person. The "compliments" that may have been given by that white person were taken by a black person who excused their blatant ignorance.

[Jermyn Davidson]

What is wrong with white people any way?


lol-- it's not white people as much as it is the whole country needs t deal with this, black, white, hispanics, indians, natives, etc.

[DividedThigh]

believe it or not there are many people that profit by not taking the wise words of mlk to heart, judge people by the content of there character rather than the color of there skin, if we were truly color blind then racism would cease, but we can do something about it one heart at a time, beginning with our own heart, dt

[Jermyn Davidson]

[QUOTE=TRFrance;417823]Thank you. Very well said.

In the end it comes down to personal accountability. Don't tell me that all of us are to be held responsible for saying untrue and outrageous things -- except if you're African American. No one should get a free pass because of things their great-granddaddy went thru.

My Dad was born in 1947. He has been a Pastor for many years. He would have never have cursed America like that, spotlight on or off. That being said:

He forbid me from joining the American military. He gave his reasons and it is my hunch that although he would have never said what Wright said, he could definitely understand the sentiments.

Wright preached to 8,000 educated and uneducated people that day, who were "standing on their feet" in applause. Not because they hate America-- that is just too simple of an explanation. Besides, they probably don't-- not all 8,000 plus.

We are not talking about a building filled with "ne'er-do-well" individuals: but "successful" doctors, lawyers, other politicians, business owners, theologians attend this church and hardly none of them spoke out publicly against that sermon. Why haven't they disowned Wright?

By the way, he is Obama's former Pastor ONLY because he is retired. I think Obama has enough conviction to stand by Wright today, if he was still his Pastor. That, I think is awesome!

[Jermyn Davidson]

Its hard for a man to drive to his destination in front of him, if he's spending all his time looking in the rear view mirror. That's what people like Jeremiah Wright fail to understand.[/QUOTE]


It's hard to move on, forgive, etc if you are never apologized to. Some Americans minimize the affects of slavery on the black race in America and they completely forget all of the hate, barriers, etc blacks experienced for more than 100 years after the Emancipation. Entire "black" towns destroyed, men, women and children burned alive, pregnant ladies gutted in front of their husbands, black men serving in war returned home only to be lynched-- all happening in the 1900's-- years after we were "freed".


To not expect residual "anger" is just simply not realistic. It has to be dealt with, by every American. This is Obama's point.

This is why he should be our next President: he has enough courage and wisdom to realize that not everything is black and white, cut and dry. I am glad he did not disown Wright and I find what Wright said from the pulpit inexcusable, more than wrong.

[DividedThigh]

although i disagree with you on obama 1399 i respect your right to that opinion, i just cant vote for a socailist, the nanny state is not my idea of a good place to live, dt

[Ferd]

It's hard to move on, forgive, etc if you are never apologized to. Some Americans minimize the affects of slavery on the black race in America and they completely forget all of the hate, barriers, etc blacks experienced for more than 100 years after the Emancipation. Entire "black" towns destroyed, men, women and children burned alive, pregnant ladies gutted in front of their husbands, black men serving in war returned home only to be lynched-- all happening in the 1900's-- years after we were "freed".


To not expect residual "anger" is just simply not realistic. It has to be dealt with, by every American. This is Obama's point.

This is why he should be our next President: he has enough courage and wisdom to realize that not everything is black and white, cut and dry. I am glad he did not disown Wright and I find what Wright said from the pulpit inexcusable, more than wrong.

this is a touchy subject. One that deserves to be treated with respect.

As a white man from the deep south. I have a little experience with racism. i have looked family members in the eye and told them if they expected to see any of my family (me my wife and children) they would never in our presence speak in a racist manner or use certain words no matter the context.

I have explained to fellow Apostolics in very clear terms that they would bust hell wide open if they didnt get rid of the racism in their hearts.

I make no appology EVER, and I ALWAYS confront it when I see it.

Having lived in Dallas for half my life, and going to a church that is as diverse as any in America, I am fortunate to spend quality time with folk that dont look like me. that have vastly different backgrounds . I am better for it.

I am not shocked at the Reverand Wrights comments. they arent out of line with what is said in many black churches. They represent a sentiment that resides in our country.

News flash folks, as far as we have come from Jim Crow, we arent done with the subjest yet.

1399, I understand the sentiment that it is hard to forgive when you have not been appologized to. I fully understand that feeling.

Many on the other side, find it difficult to understand why they owe an appology for the actions of others who are long dead and gone.

Personally I guess I stand somewhere in the middle. the wrongs are real, but we need to look at the reality. 600,000 Americans died to right the wrong of slavery.

Let me be very clear on this point. The civil war was Gods wrath poured out on this nation for the evil we lived with for 400 years. Beyond that, the failure of Reconstruction was further punishment for the Souths actions.

To this day southern states remain among the poorest in the Union, primarily as a result of the devistation of that war and it's aftermath.

We talk about all the wrong things. We dont talk about the right things.

Does Barak Obama get it? i dont know. I agree he should not disown his pastor and friend. Honestly I dont really care because I dont want him to be president because of what he will do as it relates to taxation, the war on terror, the supreme court...etc.

his race doesnt impact that at all.

I really think we all need to shift some of our views on the issue of race. Both Blacks and whites.

[HeavenlyOne]

Jeremiah Wright had said,



Let's say this was preached by a white man wearing a suit and tie in an Apostolic church. Would these statements be so shocking? Would we agree with the premise made?

"America" isn't doing those things. People are doing those things.

Right now, the number one killer of black folks are other black folks.

Those black folks are as much a part of America as white folks are.

However, with his statements, he seems to be omitting black folks from being part of America. I don't agree with that assessment.

[DividedThigh]

good post ferd, and good points, i cant vote for him for those same reasons, i am not a rascist and the history of my family is extremely racist, i understand, dt

[Jermyn Davidson]

time to move on, not all people that moved here in the 1700s had slaves, my family were indentured servants in north carolina for 7 years before given freedom and moving west with the pioneers, good grief, i want some reparations for all that sweat, dt


"By the 1700's court rulings established the racial basis of the American incarnation of slavery to apply chiefly to Africans and people of African descent, and occasionally to Native Americans."

Emancipation Proclamation: 1865

“The evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of black slaveholders were free men who purchased members of their families or who acted out of benevolence.”

In 1830, the total number of black slave owners was approx. 3,800-- the most it ever was in the USA.

The skin color of the black slaves limited where a freed slave could go (most were never freed and raised their families in slavery, and so on)-- and even when one was freed, they had to look over their shoulder to keep themselves from being kidnapped and thus, enslaved again.

Let's not minimize slavery in America.

[COOPER]

Yes ma'am.


I do not assume that my German friend hates Jews nor do I feel that they somehow need to make some recompense for what was done long ago.

Why do we live with an ongoing assumption that whites are born with a propensity toward racism? Why do we still require recompense for the deeds of some (not all) nearly a century and a half ago?

We cannot move on from that place in our history until we... move on.

Also.....What about our Poor White President Lincon that was assassinated after thousands of Gallons poor White Blood was spilled over Black Slavery {one of the reasons for the war} in the Civil War?

[ChristopherHall]

He said Jesus was Black and the The Romans were Rich White man

C’mon dude. Jesus definitely wasn’t white. Jesus was Middle Eastern and had no European ancestors. Jesus was most definitely dark skinned. I believe he was as dark as most Arabs in Saudi Arabia. And the Romans were European but most likely Mediterranean. Either way, Jesus was a part of a poor minority in a land ruled by wealth and powerful European majority.

When dealing with black folks you sometimes have to dig a bit deeper to find their meaning because they often use terms they are powerfully and personally acquainted with.

[HeavenlyOne]

We have to admit we’ve done them wrong and instead of casting it off because we may not have personally done anything; we have to take responsibility for the actions of our ancestors to some degree. Even if it is only acknowledgement of wrongs committed.



While we can acknowledge that wrongs were committed, they weren't committed against many of the blacks living today. And they weren't committed by me, therefore, I apologize for nothing.

I am both German and Cherokee Indian. I'm not apologizing to the Jews nor to the white man for what my ancestors might have done to them. Am I sorry it happened? Certainly, but I'd feel that way regardless of my ancestry.

The only actions I have to take responsibility for and the only ones I'm accountable for are my own. Not yours, not my granny's, not my kid's. Only mine. And that's regardless what happened to my ancestors.

Jeremiah Wright is responsible for his actions, regardless what his grandparents generations ago went through. He's living in today's world. He should act like it.

[DividedThigh]

"By the 1700's court rulings established the racial basis of the American incarnation of slavery to apply chiefly to Africans and people of African descent, and occasionally to Native Americans."

Emancipation Proclamation: 1865

“The evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of black slaveholders were free men who purchased members of their families or who acted out of benevolence.”

In 1830, the total number of black slave owners was approx. 3,800-- the most it ever was in the USA.

The skin color of the black slaves limited where a freed slave could go (most were never freed and raised their families in slavery, and so on)-- and even when one was freed, they had to look over their shoulder to keep themselves from being kidnapped and thus, enslaved again.

Let's not minimize slavery in America.

i think you are on the wrong foot if you are saying i was minimizing slavery, many of us came here for lots of reasons, my folks came for religious freedom, slavery was wrong, and was done away with, that is good, the effects we are still dealing with, but the fact is we can only change one heart at a time, dt

[HeavenlyOne]

AAAAUUUUGHH!!!

This post makes me cringe!!!!! The fact that the people you are referring to DO NOT see calling me a "N" or "colored" as offensive IS OFFENSIVE!!!

I don't believe I said that YOU weren't offended. I said the people that I personally know in the scenarios I mentioned weren't. Nor did I say they were calling YOU those things.

Nothing on you, mind you-- and I am glad we are having this discussion. It only proves Obama's sentiments correct that we have a long way to when it comes to race issues.

The last PUBLIC LYNCHING" was in 1970, in Georgia. Maybe when Michelle Obama made her statement about being proud of America, she was referring to how as a country we have COME SO FAR AS TO HAVE A BLACK MAN NAMED OBAMA as a serious contender for the white house.

As a whole, "Coloreds", and "N" historically was not heard in a positive way by the "Colored" or "N" person who heard it from the mouth of a white person. The "compliments" that may have been given by that white person were taken by a black person who excused their blatant ignorance.

That's possibly true, but I'm just going on what I personally observed.

But let's be honest. How many black folks call each other the N word?

Not that I care what they call one another, but I knew an elder white man who said that word in the pulpit (I'm not sure of his point because of the shock I was feeling at the time), but when he saw the looks on people's faces, he was confused and said, "well, don't they call themselves that word?"

You'll be happy to know that the pastor spoke to him in private later on and gave him some info....LOL! But he honestly didn't think it was offensive because he's heard black people use that word to describe each other, and at over 80 years old....well, he was honestly clueless as to the reasons.

I think that for black folks to use that word among themselves keeps them in a certain mentality instead of rising above it. Until they rise above the oppression they feel, whether real or not, they won't ever get anywhere.

I'm proud of people who can rise out of the ghetto, and that's whether they are black, white, hispanic, or aliens.

Sadly, many of them maintain the welfare mentality they are raised with. It's generational, but not attributed to the white man any longer.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Jeremiah Wright is responsible for his actions, regardless what his grandparents generations ago went through. He's living in today's world. He should act like it.[/QUOTE]



Jeremiah Wright's statements are rooted in the way he has experienced America. I say again, the last public lynching happened in 1970, in Georgia, well within the adult lifetime of Jeremiah Wright and my Dad.

The anger may have some to do with America's evil past of a century and a half ago. But I bet it has more to do with what he himself has personally experienced in his own country.

That anger, resentment was not publicly disowned by any of the other educated, successful members of that 8,000+ congregation-- why not?

[HeavenlyOne]

It's hard to move on, forgive, etc if you are never apologized to. Some Americans minimize the affects of slavery on the black race in America and they completely forget all of the hate, barriers, etc blacks experienced for more than 100 years after the Emancipation. Entire "black" towns destroyed, men, women and children burned alive, pregnant ladies gutted in front of their husbands, black men serving in war returned home only to be lynched-- all happening in the 1900's-- years after we were "freed".


To not expect residual "anger" is just simply not realistic. It has to be dealt with, by every American. This is Obama's point.

This is why he should be our next President: he has enough courage and wisdom to realize that not everything is black and white, cut and dry. I am glad he did not disown Wright and I find what Wright said from the pulpit inexcusable, more than wrong.

My friend, white people were slaves centuries before and for a longer time than black people ever were. But I hold no resentment for that. I wasn't there.

For most of those born after 1960, they really don't have a clue. They weren't there or were too young to remember. I know there are areas where 'white power' still reigns supreme, even today, but *most* just don't have a clue, yet want to hold on to times past that they can only read about or listen to granny speak about.

My grandparents went through the depression, but I don't remain poor because they were. There are ancestors of mine who were brutally murdered and raped and maimed in the 1800's by white men taking their land, but I hold no ill will toward the white people today.

Oh, there are Indians who live that way. They live near me. I see them often. But you know what? Those people are so busy living with the hatred in their hearts for what they really know nothing about that they have nothing themselves. They think white man and America owe them everything, so they refuse to work. It's not good enough that they get free services and don't have to pay taxes just for being Indian, but they want it to go further and get back what belonged NOT to them, but to their ancestors who have long been gone.

It's time for all of us, regardless of race, to move on as one race...the human race.

[Digging4Truth]

"By the 1700's court rulings established the racial basis of the American incarnation of slavery to apply chiefly to Africans and people of African descent, and occasionally to Native Americans."

Emancipation Proclamation: 1865

“The evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of black slaveholders were free men who purchased members of their families or who acted out of benevolence.”

In 1830, the total number of black slave owners was approx. 3,800-- the most it ever was in the USA.

The skin color of the black slaves limited where a freed slave could go (most were never freed and raised their families in slavery, and so on)-- and even when one was freed, they had to look over their shoulder to keep themselves from being kidnapped and thus, enslaved again.

Let's not minimize slavery in America.

In 1830...
3800 Slaveholders

In 1830...
12,866,020 population.

That means that 0.029% of the population owned slaves.

So not only does the whole of the white American population in the 1800's get labeled for slavery but 178 years later the whole of the white American population are STILL have to bear the sin of less than 1/2 of 1% of the American population of that day.

[Jermyn Davidson]

you said:

I'm proud of people who can rise out of the ghetto, and that's whether they are black, white, hispanic, or aliens.


I am too-- I wish more would, but there is a lot of factors involved, many things that a person outside of that environment may never understand.


you said:

Sadly, many of them maintain the welfare mentality they are raised with. It's generational, but not attributed to the white man any longer.[/QUOTE]


I think that the laws, policies, "glass ceilings" of yesteryear still affect many today. However, the people who nurture the welfare mentality do so at their own demise, and the demise of their children-- and the cycle goes on.

[HeavenlyOne]

Personally I guess I stand somewhere in the middle. the wrongs are real, but we need to look at the reality. 600,000 Americans died to right the wrong of slavery.



And let's also realize that most of those people were white men. Some of them were black, some Indian, some hispanic.

Let's also understand that of all the slave owners, over 3000 of them were black.

I'm not sure when it turned into a racial thing. Perhaps it was that way from the beginning, or maybe it turned that way later on. I don't know.

You are right, Feerd. The wrongs were real, but reality needs to be realized.

[Mr. Steinway]

It's hard to move on, forgive, etc if you are never apologized to. Some Americans minimize the affects of slavery on the black race in America and they completely forget all of the hate, barriers, etc blacks experienced for more than 100 years after the Emancipation. Entire "black" towns destroyed, men, women and children burned alive, pregnant ladies gutted in front of their husbands, black men serving in war returned home only to be lynched-- all happening in the 1900's-- years after we were "freed".


To not expect residual "anger" is just simply not realistic. It has to be dealt with, by every American. This is Obama's point.

This is why he should be our next President: he has enough courage and wisdom to realize that not everything is black and white, cut and dry. I am glad he did not disown Wright and I find what Wright said from the pulpit inexcusable, more than wrong.

First, Thanks 1399 for showing us the "other side" to this argument.

I do understand that blacks have been looked at as second class citizens for a couple of generations since slavery was abolished. I little bit of that still lingers to this day. I do think it has evolved into a class warfare type thing. It's the haves vs. the have nots.

Since many blacks are still in the "have nots" catagory, they tend to blurr class warfare into racial bogotry.

Fortunately, more and more blacks are being educated, getting good jobs and are entering into the middle, upper-middle, and upper classes of American society.

Others will continue to blame the white man for their place in life. They have somewhat of an advantage over the poor white families that can't play the race card to blame their woes on. All need to realize that breaking generational situations requires an education and mind altering positive thinking.

I think I understand generational "anger". We can't let this anger consume us lest we become negatively effected. The sucessful blacks, IMO, have learned to move on. They haven't forgotten, but are making the best of a tough situation.

Do you believe that an apology from the the US government will make racial tension cease? Maybe it would help!

What if every state and city issued a formal apology, would that help? What if every white person in the US was required to send every black person a personal letter of apology, would that help?

My great great grandfather, Chess Lewis, fought for the South in the civial war as an 18 year old kid. He had just moved from South Carolina to Mississippi when the war broke out. His family was too poor to own slaves.

If it will help, I'll apologize on behalf of my great-great grandfather and his family for how they may have treated black people back in his day.

[Jermyn Davidson]

In 1830...
3800 Slaveholders

In 1830...
12,866,020 population.

That means that 0.029% of the population owned slaves.

So not only does the whole of the white American population in the 1800's get labeled for slavery but 178 years later the whole of the white American population are STILL have to bear the sin of less than 1/2 of 1% of the American population of that day.


Not the white population-- I don't believe that poor blacks hold their poor white neighbors, relatives, friends "responsible" for slavery (generally speaking). Furthermore, if the atrocities, hate and barriers stopped in 1865, I believe our country (as a whole) would be much further along in race relations, equal opportunities, etc.

[Digging4Truth]

And let's also realize that most of those people were white men. Some of them were black, some Indian, some hispanic.

Let's also understand that of all the slave owners, over 3000 of them were black.

I'm not sure when it turned into a racial thing. Perhaps it was that way from the beginning, or maybe it turned that way later on. I don't know.

You are right, Feerd. The wrongs were real, but reality needs to be realized.

And slavery had been an accepted part of society for thousands of years.

The late 1800's was when mankind as a whole came to an enlightened enough state that they saw the wrong of owning other humans and the process slowly came to an end.

Everybody sees that Americans owned slaves in the 1800's.

What people need to see is that slavery had been an accepted way of life for thousands of years and what Americans did in the 1800's was put an end to it.

If we are going to remember that time we need to remember it for what it was... then end of a mindset.

The end of a mindset nearly as old as mankind that slavery was an acceptable practice.

Isn't it ironic that those who brought an end to this practice are THE ones who are made to wear it's ugly badge without any hope of parole.

It sickens me.

[Digging4Truth]

Not the white population-- I don't believe that poor blacks hold their poor white neighbors, relatives, friends "responsible" for slavery (generally speaking). Furthermore, if the atrocities, hate and barriers stopped in 1865, I believe our country (as a whole) would be much further along in race relations, equal opportunities, etc.

History is like a dog.

It never goes away if one keeps calling it back and feeding it.

Let it starve and die.

[HeavenlyOne]

you said:

I'm proud of people who can rise out of the ghetto, and that's whether they are black, white, hispanic, or aliens.


I am too-- I wish more would, but there is a lot of factors involved, many things that a person outside of that environment may never understand.


you said:

Sadly, many of them maintain the welfare mentality they are raised with. It's generational, but not attributed to the white man any longer.


I think that the laws, policies, "glass ceilings" of yesteryear still affect many today. However, the people who nurture the welfare mentality do so at their own demise, and the demise of their children-- and the cycle goes on.

My friend, I lived in a housing project a few years ago. Most of the occupants were white, as the area I lived in was predominantly white (the KKK is big in that area).

I lived in a duplex, and my neighbor was a sweet, elderly black woman, who's two grandsons lived with her.

I had more problems with the white folks than any of the black folks. The welfare mentality was alive and well and seen in those people who had nothing better to do than drink and smoke and party at 3am while people like myself, going to school and working two part-time jobs, were trying to sleep cause they had to get up early.

I told my kids everyday for the 2 1/2 years we lived there that it wasn't our home, just a place we were staying at temporarily. I didn't want them to develop a place of comfort in living there.

Now, I'm not saying that all people who live there have a welfare mentality. Some have no choice, like the elderly woman beside me. I'm glad there are places for people like her to live that are safe.

Where I lived, there were very few elderly and disabled, however. I found that to be a sad scenario.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Isn't it ironic that those who brought an end to this practice are THE ones who are made to wear it's ugly badge without any hope of parole.

It sickens me.


There is hope-- that's the message behind Obama's speech. But the hope is in "turning the light on" many ugly realities associated with race issues in America. There's no hope in turning away, no hope in minimizing anyone's pain, no hope in wishing that "they would all get over it."

That hope is EVERY AMERICAN'S responsibility IMO to bring to realization.

[ChristopherHall]

It’s obvious to me that the racial divide among even Apostolics is greater than I imagined. The leading opinion among whites is, “Get over it”. But we as a white majority have yet to even admit to doing “it” or to what “it” was and what effect "it" has had on people living today.

This is perhaps one of America’s most grievous national sins. The prejudice and racism that has fueled the frustration and indignation of civil rights leaders and black pastors is entirely lost on us white folks. Think about what has been inherited on their side.

- For nearly 400 years your people are enslaved in brutal conditions and no restitution is made. There isn’t a Zion for you to return to. You lost your history, your language, your culture, your identity. The only thing that defines you is your history in bondage and the stereotypes society perpetuates.
- Imagine, your grandfather was drug out of a house and lynched by the firelight of burning torches in a park by a group of white men in the middle of the night. Somehow the authorities never found a viable suspect.
- Your uncle was accused of a brutal rape and murder of a white girl when there were many eye witnesses testifying to his not even being in that place the night of the crime. One by one the prosecution throws out their testimonies and your uncle is sentenced to death.
- Your father is more than qualified for good work….but is never hired. When hired he’s paid only a portion of what a white man doing the same job is paid. He went out for the police force but they denied him for someone less qualified because he was white. Your father couldn’t get on with the fire department either. After multiple failures your father settles for working as a floor sweeper in the local corner market for little pay. No inheritance is handed down. Nothing is there.
- Your brother is approached by some strangers interested in getting him in on a narcotics deal. They want to know his friends and they network with him. They offer him big time cash, money he can’t refuse. The offer’s too good to refuse and at the abyss of poverty he takes the offer thinking this is a way out and that he’ll only do it as long as he needs to get set. Then he’s busted in a sting operation that brings him and ring of others down and lands them in prison.
- You call around for information on various apartments on a nice side of town where you can get away from the elements you live around and when you do amazingly, there are no vacancies, or there is still work needed to be done and they aren’t yet available. But your white friend calls the same properties and gets an offer for a lease beginning nearly immediately on nearly half the apartments you called.
- You walk into a neighborhood grocery store to buy some milk for your baby girl and find that you’re being watched and followed around the store by employees like they can’t trust you while white patrons walk around freely nearly oblivious to any suspicion.
- I’m white. I’ve been pulled over about 4 times in my life and was never issued a ticket. I was even going 57 mph in 35 on my way to Thunder Bowl once and got off with a warning. You’re my black friend; he’s been pulled over only twice and issued a hefty ticket by a white cop each time.

Nobody admits to “it”. No body apologizes for “it”. Everyone pretends “it” isn’t real. But the one thing they are sure of is that you get over “it”.

The frustration and anger over these things pours out from some black preachers on some Sunday mornings. The paranoia surrounding this issue has combined history with myth and sometimes what is said isn’t factual but is perceived by the speaker to be true. And we gasp and act faint like Victorian women who can’t believe how horrible it is.

Get real.

[Jermyn Davidson]

[QUOTE=Pianoman;417959]
Do you believe that an apology from the the US government will make racial tension cease? Maybe it would help!


Yes, it would. However, for the folks who profit on the misery of others, that "apology" or a million dollars or whatever you can come up with would never be enough. Again, it's a sad reality and it is best dealt with in the light of public discourse.

The weight of concessions and healing will only be borne by those of us who are strong enough and wise enough to bear it. No one can do it alone, but we all can do something-- one day at a time, one heart at a time.

[DividedThigh]

[QUOTE=Pianoman;417959]
Do you believe that an apology from the the US government will make racial tension cease? Maybe it would help!


Yes, it would. However, for the folks who profit on the misery of others, that "apology" or a million dollars or whatever you can come up with would never be enough. Again, it's a sad reality and it is best dealt with in the light of public discourse.

The weight of concessions and healing will only be borne by those of us who are strong enough and wise enough to bear it. No one can do it alone, but we all can do something-- one day at a time, one heart at a time.

that has been my point all along my brother one heart at a time can change, i grew up also in the racially charged south in the 60s and 70s, my heart is different than my prejudice family, i never really understood why it mattered what color you were, and it doesnt, it is good to openly discuss feelings and hurts, god can be the only answer, as has been said one heart at a time, dt

[Digging4Truth]

It’s obvious to me that the racial divide among even Apostolics is greater than I imagined. The leading opinion among whites is, “Get over it”. But we as a white majority have yet to even admit to doing “it” or to what “it” was and what effect "it" has had on people living today.

Nobody admits to “it”. No body apologizes for “it”. Everyone pretends “it” isn’t real. But the one thing they are sure of is that you get over “it”.


I won't admit to IT

I won't apologize for IT

Because I have never in my life done IT.

I am not responsible for IT

IT is not part of my nature

IT is not part of who I am

IT is apparently deep rooted in your family or something because you have an insatiable desire to apologize for IT.

Have at IT.

I am moving past IT.

[ChristopherHall]

As I go back and read this, I’m almost embarrassed to be Apostolic folks.

Here’s a thought that popped into my head. It may be crazy and I might regret mentioning it but here goes. LOL

Anyone here think the Jews were not entitled to reparations and a nation to return to? After all….that was their ancestor’s problem after 70 A.D. We didn’t scatter them to the four winds.

I think it's funny how we pick and choose which races are worthy of respect and which are not.

[COOPER]

C’mon dude. Jesus definitely wasn’t white. Jesus was Middle Eastern and had no European ancestors. Jesus was most definitely dark skinned. I believe he was as dark as most Arabs in Saudi Arabia. And the Romans were European but most likely Mediterranean. Either way, Jesus was a part of a poor minority in a land ruled by wealth and powerful European majority.

When dealing with black folks you sometimes have to dig a bit deeper to find their meaning because they often use terms they are powerfully and personally acquainted with.


And Jesus was not "African" Black either........So do you think Jesus was darker than most Jews?:laffatu

[Digging4Truth]

As I go back and read this, I’m almost embarrassed to be Apostolic folks.

Here’s a thought that popped into my head. It may be crazy and I might regret mentioning it but here goes. LOL

Anyone here think the Jews were not entitled to reparations and a nation to return to? After all….that was their ancestor’s problem after 70 A.D. We didn’t scatter them to the four winds.

We didn't.... God did.

He promised he would.

[DividedThigh]

out of a sincere desire to not be misunderstood i am not going to say what i just thought after reading my lib brothers post, thanks lord for saving me from myself, dt

[ChristopherHall]

Here's an interesting news story that might add to this topic:

Australia apologizes to Aborigines
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/02/12/australia.aborgines/

[ChristopherHall]

And Jesus was not "African" Black either........So do you think Jesus was darker than most Jews?:laffatu

My wife's family is McCoy (Irish) and Lieberman (Jewish). She was raised Jewish. And yes most Jews today, even those in Israel, have had generations of mingling in Europe and are considerably lighter than Jews were in the time of Christ. So my answer is that biblical Jews were indeed far darker than modern Jews. Closer to darker Arabs.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I
- You walk into a neighborhood grocery store to buy some milk for your baby girl and find that you’re being watched and followed around the store by employees like they can’t trust you while white patrons walk around freely nearly oblivious to any suspicion.


This has happened to me more than once, without the baby girl.


- I’m white. I’ve been pulled over about 4 times in my life and was never issued a ticket. I was even going 57 mph in 35 on my way to Thunder Bowl once and got off with a warning. You’re my black friend; he’s been pulled over only twice and issued a hefty ticket by a white cop each time.


I have been pulled over, more than a couple of times, for no apparent reason.

I have been pulled over many times for good reason with no ticket given because I was respectful.


you said:
Nobody admits to “it”. No body apologizes for “it”. Everyone pretends “it” isn’t real. But the one thing they are sure of is that you get over “it”.

I say:
One of the problems is that there are so many white folks who really have had nothing to do with the "glass ceiling" effect, racial barriers, and they really don't have any hate in their heart. They may have ignorance, so it's hard to get some folks to see anything worth apologizing for.

But there's honestly enough ignorance in this country to pass around for everyone to share!


you said:
The frustration and anger over these things pours out from some black preachers on some Sunday mornings. The paranoia surrounding this issue has combined history with myth and sometimes what is said isn’t factual but is perceived by the speaker to be true. And we gasp and act faint like Victorian women who can’t believe how horrible it is.

Get real.

WOW, well said.

[COOPER]

out of a sincere desire to not be misunderstood i am not going to say what i just thought after reading my lib brothers post, thanks lord for saving me from myself, dt

The whole thing that rips about this topic and thread is: IF Hillary's Pastor for 20 years said anything thing like this Black pastor; there would riots in the streets, Jessie Jackson , Al Sharpton and the NAACP all over the News demanding that the Hillary be pulled from the Presidential Race.

[ChristopherHall]

WOW, well said.

Dude, I spent from age 12 to 20 living in the black projects. Bro, I've seen some stuff.

[Digging4Truth]

Dude, I spent from age 12 to 20 living in the black projects. Bro, I've seen some stuff.

Wow... segregated projects.

[Jermyn Davidson]

And Jesus was not "African" Black either........So do you think Jesus was darker than most Jews?:laffatu

Yes. I believe his feet were the color of brass-- I think I read that once. I know King Solomon was black and he is in the lineage of Christ.

But this is neither here nor there in this discussion.

[Digging4Truth]

Given the choice of Obama or CH handing race anger in this nation...

Obama has my vote hands down.

[ChristopherHall]

Yes. I believe his feet were the color of brass-- I think I read that once. I know King Solomon was black and he is in the lineage of Christ.

But this is neither here nor there in this discussion.

lol

[Encryptus]

America will not see Obama’s race as an elect-ability issue

America may not, but the liberal media has and will.

As a conservative, I could care less if a woman is elected president. In this case, it’s this particular woman I (and many other Americans) have a problem with. As a conservative, I could care less if a Black person is elected president. In this case, it’s this particular Black man I have a problem with.

But if the racial fires are stoked in the coming days and weeks, it will be the media, and liberal personalities, that stoke them.

Despite their best efforts to re-write history, the Democrat Party has the abysmal record regarding race in America, and I contend if our history were properly taught, few Blacks would want to have anything to do with Democrats.With that, Barack Obama should watch his back. Republicans see him as a political opponent. Democrats see Obama’s race first. Watch the election unfold. The farther Barack goes, the issue of race will be brought up and brought up often. It will be brought up by liberals and they will get yet another pass on their “intolerance.”

So what else is new…

________________________________________________

Excerpt from a column by Bob Parks a black conservative written back in Jan. Felt compelled to add the adjective (black) only because a certain poster would probably dismiss anything written by a white man on the topic. This article was written in Jan, and as it prophesied it appears to be the white liberals stoking the issue!!

[COOPER]

Yes. I believe his feet were the color of brass-- I think I read that once. I know King Solomon was black and he is in the lineage of Christ. But this is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Do you have Bible for that?

[HeavenlyOne]

It’s obvious to me that the racial divide among even Apostolics is greater than I imagined. The leading opinion among whites is, “Get over it”. But we as a white majority have yet to even admit to doing “it” or to what “it” was and what effect "it" has had on people living today.

This is perhaps one of America’s most grievous national sins. The prejudice and racism that has fueled the frustration and indignation of civil rights leaders and black pastors is entirely lost on us white folks. Think about what has been inherited on their side.

- For nearly 400 years your people are enslaved in brutal conditions and no restitution is made. There isn’t a Zion for you to return to. You lost your history, your language, your culture, your identity. The only thing that defines you is your history in bondage and the stereotypes society perpetuates.
- Imagine, your grandfather was drug out of a house and lynched by the firelight of burning torches in a park by a group of white men in the middle of the night. Somehow the authorities never found a viable suspect.
- Your uncle was accused of a brutal rape and murder of a white girl when there were many eye witnesses testifying to his not even being in that place the night of the crime. One by one the prosecution throws out their testimonies and your uncle is sentenced to death.
- Your father is more than qualified for good work….but is never hired. When hired he’s paid only a portion of what a white man doing the same job is paid. He went out for the police force but they denied him for someone less qualified because he was white. Your father couldn’t get on with the fire department either. After multiple failures your father settles for working as a floor sweeper in the local corner market for little pay. No inheritance is handed down. Nothing is there.
- Your brother is approached by some strangers interested in getting him in on a narcotics deal. They want to know his friends and they network with him. They offer him big time cash, money he can’t refuse. The offer’s too good to refuse and at the abyss of poverty he takes the offer thinking this is a way out and that he’ll only do it as long as he needs to get set. Then he’s busted in a sting operation that brings him and ring of others down and lands them in prison.
- You call around for information on various apartments on a nice side of town where you can get away from the elements you live around and when you do amazingly, there are no vacancies, or there is still work needed to be done and they aren’t yet available. But your white friend calls the same properties and gets an offer for a lease beginning nearly immediately on nearly half the apartments you called.
- You walk into a neighborhood grocery store to buy some milk for your baby girl and find that you’re being watched and followed around the store by employees like they can’t trust you while white patrons walk around freely nearly oblivious to any suspicion.
- I’m white. I’ve been pulled over about 4 times in my life and was never issued a ticket. I was even going 57 mph in 35 on my way to Thunder Bowl once and got off with a warning. You’re my black friend; he’s been pulled over only twice and issued a hefty ticket by a white cop each time.

Nobody admits to “it”. No body apologizes for “it”. Everyone pretends “it” isn’t real. But the one thing they are sure of is that you get over “it”.

The frustration and anger over these things pours out from some black preachers on some Sunday mornings. The paranoia surrounding this issue has combined history with myth and sometimes what is said isn’t factual but is perceived by the speaker to be true. And we gasp and act faint like Victorian women who can’t believe how horrible it is.

Get real.

Chris, you think black people are the only ones who have ever suffered hardship since Adam and Eve??

You need to get your head out of the sand.

You said the majority of whites have yet to admit to 'it'.

Have you? Have you admitted to doing 'it'?

I'll tell you this...I never have done 'it'. I was brought up in a predominantly black neighborhood until I was about 13. When my mom wasn't home, my black Aunt Polly watched me. My 'sister' is black. My kids call her Aunt Butterscotch.

You say that all whites have to say is 'get over it'. Well, that's what my black friends say about 'it' too.

Oh, and those black friends and family members I have? They live in a state where many wars were fought and plantations abounded.

They've already gotten over 'it'.

And quit making excuses like you do above. The idea that white man is responsible for setting up a black man in a sting operation just because he's black is preposterous. If he takes the money, he's guilty and responsible for his actions. We all have the voice to say 'no'. Nobody forced him to take the money you say he couldn't refuse.

Your statements make black people look worse than you are claiming that America at large does. If I were black, I'd be offended at your suggestions that black people have no choice but to do wrong when opportunity knocks.

In fact, I'm offended as a white girl that you make those statements about black folks that I know and love.

[HeavenlyOne]

As I go back and read this, I’m almost embarrassed to be Apostolic folks.

Here’s a thought that popped into my head. It may be crazy and I might regret mentioning it but here goes. LOL

Anyone here think the Jews were not entitled to reparations and a nation to return to? After all….that was their ancestor’s problem after 70 A.D. We didn’t scatter them to the four winds.

I think it's funny how we pick and choose which races are worthy of respect and which are not.

Chris, you have a problem. You can't separate comments from people as people. Instead, you lump them into a group. You are just as guilty of stereotypes as white supremacists are.

I have to wonder why you said you are almost embarrassed to be Apostolic instead of saying you are almost embarrassed to be white? Isn't that also a commonality in this thread? Why the categorization? Don't you know any other Apostolics?

[HeavenlyOne]

The whole thing that rips about this topic and thread is: IF Hillary's Pastor for 20 years said anything thing like this Black pastor; there would riots in the streets, Jessie Jackson , Al Sharpton and the NAACP all over the News demanding that the Hillary be pulled from the Presidential Race.

You hit that square.

[Jermyn Davidson]

The whole thing that rips about this topic and thread is: IF Hillary's Pastor for 20 years said anything thing like this Black pastor; there would riots in the streets, Jessie Jackson , Al Sharpton and the NAACP all over the News demanding that the Hillary be pulled from the Presidential Race.


You may be right. But until there is more dialogue and honest to goodness racial reconciliation, people like Sharpton and Jackson will be able to get away with doing stuff like that-- leaving you with a bitter experience too. This racial reconciliation stuff will bring healing to everyone, when everyone becomes a contributer to the healing.

[ChristopherHall]

I won't admit to IT

I won't apologize for IT

Because I have never in my life done IT.

I am not responsible for IT

IT is not part of my nature

IT is not part of who I am

IT is apparently deep rooted in your family or something because you have an insatiable desire to apologize for IT.

Have at IT.

I am moving past IT.

I’m going to translate what my brother is actually saying, though he doesn’t realize it and never even intend it:

I won't admit to IT

I won’t speak words admitting to my ancestor’s abuse of entire races of people.

I won't apologize for IT

I won’t express any sorrow for their actions.

Because I have never in my life done IT.

I won’t be concerned with any wrong that cannot be traced back to me personally.

I am not responsible for IT.

I am not responsible for speaking words of healing to the hurt my ancestors inflected.

IT is not part of my nature

I’m not racist, why should I even care about the pain and residual effect of 400 years of bondage on another human being?

IT is apparently deep rooted in your family or something because you have an insatiable desire to apologize for IT.

I don’t understand why you so adamantly believe our words can heal by expressing sorrows for our ancestor’s wrongs committed against others.

Have at IT.

It’s your job to try to heal the hurt. I’ll focus upon my own life and concerns.

I am moving past IT

I’m going to ignore that it happened, ignore how wrong it was, ignore any residual effect on the hearts minds and souls of these previously dehumanized people groups.

My brother didn’t say these things…BUT…he doesn’t realize that this is how he can be interpreted when he says what he does say.

[ChristopherHall]

America will not see Obama’s race as an elect-ability issue

America may not, but the liberal media has and will.

As a conservative, I could care less if a woman is elected president. In this case, it’s this particular woman I (and many other Americans) have a problem with. As a conservative, I could care less if a Black person is elected president. In this case, it’s this particular Black man I have a problem with.

But if the racial fires are stoked in the coming days and weeks, it will be the media, and liberal personalities, that stoke them.

Despite their best efforts to re-write history, the Democrat Party has the abysmal record regarding race in America, and I contend if our history were properly taught, few Blacks would want to have anything to do with Democrats.With that, Barack Obama should watch his back. Republicans see him as a political opponent. Democrats see Obama’s race first. Watch the election unfold. The farther Barack goes, the issue of race will be brought up and brought up often. It will be brought up by liberals and they will get yet another pass on their “intolerance.”

So what else is new…

________________________________________________

Excerpt from a column by Bob Parks a black conservative written back in Jan. Felt compelled to add the adjective (black) only because a certain poster would probably dismiss anything written by a white man on the topic. This article was written in Jan, and as it prophesied it appears to be the white liberals stoking the issue!!

Dude. This isn't a partisian thing. Both Republicans and Democrats have done black people wrong.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Chris, you have a problem. You can't separate comments from people as people. Instead, you lump them into a group. You are just as guilty of stereotypes as white supremacists are.

I have to wonder why you said you are almost embarrassed to be Apostolic instead of saying you are almost embarrassed to be white? Isn't that also a commonality in this thread? Why the categorization? Don't you know any other Apostolics?


He knows at least one "other" Apostolic....

It has been my experience that many white Apostolics have a lot of racial ignorance to overcome-- but it could be where I have lived. For example, the white Apostolics in, say, Alabama, don't have nearly as much racial ignorance issues as the ones here in Baltimore, MD. Different population mix, different experiences. However, I have spent all of my adult life living in the South, when living in the States.

[ChristopherHall]

1399, are you black?

[Digging4Truth]

You may be right. But until there is more dialogue and honest to goodness racial reconciliation, people like Sharpton and Jackson will be able to get away with doing stuff like that-- leaving you with a bitter experience too. This racial reconciliation stuff will bring healing to everyone, when everyone becomes a contributer to the healing.

Agreed...

And this is just the type of tone that Obama set forth in his speech.

The type of things that engender healing are words that admit that there are problems on both sides, solutions to be found on both sides and things to be learned on both sides.

When people are approached in the "you're the evil white man who does all wrong and keeps everyone down who is all privileged and has all things and hates and despises all people of color" then that heals nothing. That only created division, resentment and even hatred.

The blame game ALWAYS ends in division and hatred.

The game we need now is one that stops and takes a look at where we are right NOW... and how WE ALL can fix it.

I tire of having to live my life as the evil white man... the harbinger of all things hateful.

The blame game is a tool of our common enemy... but too many amongst us know the tool all too well.

One thing is for sure... the ones being blamed in the blame game can try all they'd like but you will never crawl low enough to satisfy the blamers.

The only progress to be found is when we both stand up, shake hands, and move on together.

[ChristopherHall]

Chris, you have a problem. You can't separate comments from people as people. Instead, you lump them into a group. You are just as guilty of stereotypes as white supremacists are.

I have to wonder why you said you are almost embarrassed to be Apostolic instead of saying you are almost embarrassed to be white? Isn't that also a commonality in this thread? Why the categorization? Don't you know any other Apostolics?

I guess I should clarify. I'm just suprized that so many Apostolics still think like this.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I’m going to translate what my brother is actually saying, though he doesn’t realize it and never even intend it:



I won’t speak words admitting to my ancestor’s abuse of entire races of people.



I won’t express any sorrow for their actions.



I won’t be concerned with any wrong that cannot be traced back to me personally.



I am not responsible for speaking words of healing to the hurt my ancestors inflected.



I’m not racist, why should I even care about the pain and residual effect of 400 years of bondage on another human being?



I don’t understand why you so adamantly believe our words can heal by expressing sorrows for our ancestor’s wrongs committed against others.



It’s your job to try to heal the hurt. I’ll focus upon my own life and concerns.



I’m going to ignore that it happened, ignore how wrong it was, ignore any residual effect on the hearts minds and souls of these previously dehumanized people groups.

My brother didn’t say these things…BUT…he doesn’t realize that this is how he can be interpreted when he says what he does say.



That my friend is very well how it would be interpreted by many folks, black and white alike.

[Pressing-On]

That my friend is very well how it would be interpreted by many folks, black and white alike.

Yes, 1399, but enough is enough. How many years and how much money do they need to move on? What would be enough? Nothing is ever going to be enough when it's dwelt on forever.

[ChristopherHall]

The whole thing that rips about this topic and thread is: IF Hillary's Pastor for 20 years said anything thing like this Black pastor; there would riots in the streets, Jessie Jackson , Al Sharpton and the NAACP all over the News demanding that the Hillary be pulled from the Presidential Race.

I'm not sure that would be true...in your hypothetical is Hillary's pastor white or black?

[Praxeas]

I think Obama is attempting Damage Control. He had to have known what his own Pastor believed and preached. Him denying it makes me really wonder about the man....either he is lying or he just calls this his church in order to say he is a Christian (but never attends really).

And yes that is enough to make me not want to vote for him. Ok McCain had an affair...so far we just don't know if Obama did or not, but there is enough going on as it is to not trust him.

[HeavenlyOne]

You may be right. But until there is more dialogue and honest to goodness racial reconciliation, people like Sharpton and Jackson will be able to get away with doing stuff like that-- leaving you with a bitter experience too. This racial reconciliation stuff will bring healing to everyone, when everyone becomes a contributer to the healing.

Have you ever heard Bill Cosby speak about racial issues?

He has a brilliant mind. I've always loved the man. He has such a way with people, regardless of their race or his.

But the way he speaks about racial issues is a no nonsense approach. He calls for personal responsibility in his community and to quit playing the blame game.

I hope for the day we can all live in peace together, but I feel that we are still far from it in many areas. Some areas may never see it.

I have a funny story to tell you. Most of my mom's family, who are white, lived in a couple cities that are centered inside a river running through the mountains. To this day (I believe, but I know it was this way when I was a teen), black people can live in the city at the foot of the mountain, but not the one on the mountain.

In the days before indoor plumbing, my ancestors, as well as the other city folks, had to have their 'pots' emptied. There was a poor old black man that would go around the city, collecting pots and emptying them. He was to be paid, but most people wouldn't pay.

He continued picked up their pots anyway. He did so for several years.

It was years later that they found out that he had the last laugh.

He was dumping their pots in their drinking supply.

Going back to the above, there are places that will never see an end to the strife. I believe one of those places is Memphis. Another place is southern Illinois (the KKK is alive and well there).

The sad thing is, the problem is on both sides. Neither side wants to let go.

But I don't believe that change will come in an instant either. It will take one at a time.

What kind of country would this be if we took responsibility for just one other person?

[Digging4Truth]

I’m going to translate what my brother is actually saying, though he doesn’t realize it and never even intend it:



I won’t speak words admitting to my ancestor’s abuse of entire races of people.



I won’t express any sorrow for their actions.



I won’t be concerned with any wrong that cannot be traced back to me personally.



I am not responsible for speaking words of healing to the hurt my ancestors inflected.



I’m not racist, why should I even care about the pain and residual effect of 400 years of bondage on another human being?



I don’t understand why you so adamantly believe our words can heal by expressing sorrows for our ancestor’s wrongs committed against others.



It’s your job to try to heal the hurt. I’ll focus upon my own life and concerns.



I’m going to ignore that it happened, ignore how wrong it was, ignore any residual effect on the hearts minds and souls of these previously dehumanized people groups.

My brother didn’t say these things…BUT…he doesn’t realize that this is how he can be interpreted when he says what he does say.

You... brother of mine... are evil surmising upon the heart and mind of a child of your God and King.

I will not have my words interpreted by another persons internal struggles.

That was the last straw.

You can ALL have this thread.

I

AM


OUT!

[COOPER]

I'm not sure that would be true...in your hypothetical is Hillary's pastor white or black?
:laffatu WHITE!


And anything remotely negative spoken against Blacks by any one in the Media, celeb, political offices, etc..... it's all over for that person.

[HeavenlyOne]

He knows at least one "other" Apostolic....

It has been my experience that many white Apostolics have a lot of racial ignorance to overcome-- but it could be where I have lived. For example, the white Apostolics in, say, Alabama, don't have nearly as much racial ignorance issues as the ones here in Baltimore, MD. Different population mix, different experiences. However, I have spent all of my adult life living in the South, when living in the States.

While I agree with the point made, I don't think it has anything to do with being Apostolic as much as it has to do with other factors, like race and beliefs.

I'm sure that the white Apostolics in Baltimore don't feel any differently about the issue than the white Methodists or white Catholics in Baltimore...but then again, I've never ever visited there, let alone lived there.

I just think it's wrong to lump being Apostolic into it when that might not have anything to do with it.

[HeavenlyOne]

I guess I should clarify. I'm just suprized that so many Apostolics still think like this.

Perhaps it would be better to say, I'm surprised that so many white folks who are also Apostolic still think like this.

I'm still not sure why that makes you embarrassed to be Apostolic, considering the numbers of white folks who are Apostolic.

[Ferd]

And let's also realize that most of those people were white men. Some of them were black, some Indian, some hispanic.

Let's also understand that of all the slave owners, over 3000 of them were black.

I'm not sure when it turned into a racial thing. Perhaps it was that way from the beginning, or maybe it turned that way later on. I don't know.

You are right, Feerd. The wrongs were real, but reality needs to be realized.

H1, by and large slavery in 1865 was a race issue. sure you can point to any number of exceptions to the rule. but that does NOT disprove the rule.

Slavery was a race issue. When slavery ended, free blacks where met with suspision, fear, rage and violence... because they were black. There blackness was the distinguishing feature.

while a very small number of people owned slaves the entirety of the United States of America, before the war, allowed black slavery to exist.

The founding fathers knew that the great hole in the American experiment was slavery. they knew that his was one of the major problems and many held their breaths waiting for the time when it would break the Union.

Andrew Jackson spent his entire political carreer trying to put off the collision over the issue of slavery.

This is part of the problem

White people try to downplay the reality of racism in America and it seems at least in some quarters, some African Americans are trying to down play the gains that have been made in the last 40 years.

We talk past each other, never giving ear to the reality of each's experience.

[Jermyn Davidson]

[QUOTE=HeavenlyOne;418071
I just think it's wrong to lump being Apostolic into it when that might not have anything to do with it.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, I think you are right.

Chris, click on my "Fighter's Instinct" hyperlink and you will see me.

[DividedThigh]

i usually dont address my lib brother directly but i cant let this go, ch you have no business interpreting what others mean or what they are saying, dont put words in others mouths or posts, speak for yourself, dt

[Encryptus]

Dude. This isn't a partician thing. Both Republicans and Democrats have done black people wrong.

And yet as H.O. has stated and been ignored, the worst is the black on black crime. Beginning with the black muslims who were the slave traders in Africa, and are among the few who still perpetuate it to this day. Where is the demand for apology from them??

It's the liberal concept of reparations and entitlements which harm the blacks more than the isolated and relatively rare white on black baises which exist in the United States. Get a grip, white slave holders were an extreme minority, and last I read it was NOT a slave rebellion which ended slavery it was white man's blood.

The victim mentality is a tool used by liberals to garner votes and ease mythical "white man's burden". Race bias is indeed alive and well in the good ole US of A, and it is often manifest from the blacks toward the whites.

Mexican/Anglo relations where strained in Texas. Atrocities committed. But the past is the past there.

If logic doesn't move you try statistics. Mexican Americans are according to statistics the highest number of victims of crime based solely on race, but we don't hear of these types of postings.

Why??? Even though CURRENTLY they face such bias? Because they have not succumbed to a professional victim mentality propagated by their leaders and liberal whites.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I will not have my words interpreted by another persons internal struggles.



That struggle is all of our struggle, until we create that "more perfect union". Please don't leave angry. No malice was intended by anyone.

[HeavenlyOne]

Yes, 1399, but enough is enough. How many years and how much money do they need to move on? What would be enough? Nothing is ever going to be enough when it's dwelt on forever.

In one war, the blood of over 600k men was spilled to end the atrocities. That's not including the exponential numbers of those who also spilled their blood since that war.

You'd think that would be payment enough. I'm failing to see how my apology for something I personally know nothing about will do more than the blood shed by my ancestors who were there and saw it firsthand.

[HeavenlyOne]

I'm not sure that would be true...in your hypothetical is Hillary's pastor white or black?

Chris, I think that's the point.

If he were black, it would be ok. If he were white, it wouldn't be.

[Jermyn Davidson]

i usually dont address my lib brother directly but i cant let this go, ch you have no business interpreting what others mean or what they are saying, dont put words in others mouths or posts, speak for yourself, dt


I believe he was stating what Digging's statements would be interpreted as-- not what he/she said. Again this dialogue is good because it helps folks to get to the core of stuff.

[Ferd]

Yeah, I think you are right.

Chris, click on my "Fighter's Instinct" hyperlink and you will see me.

Seriously you have to stop messing up the quote thingies. that makes my head spin.

[DividedThigh]

I believe he was stating what Digging's statements would be interpreted as-- not what he/she said. Again this dialogue is good because it helps folks to get to the core of stuff.

that may be true brother, but he needs to chill, people need the respect and right to say what they feel and be taken at there word, not subject to anothers translation, chris has a habit of doing that to people, he needs to out of respect stop, dt

[HeavenlyOne]

H1, by and large slavery in 1865 was a race issue. sure you can point to any number of exceptions to the rule. but that does NOT disprove the rule.

Slavery was a race issue. When slavery ended, free blacks where met with suspision, fear, rage and violence... because they were black. There blackness was the distinguishing feature.

while a very small number of people owned slaves the entirety of the United States of America, before the war, allowed black slavery to exist.

The founding fathers knew that the great hole in the American experiment was slavery. they knew that his was one of the major problems and many held their breaths waiting for the time when it would break the Union.

Andrew Jackson spent his entire political carreer trying to put off the collision over the issue of slavery.

This is part of the problem

White people try to downplay the reality of racism in America and it seems at least in some quarters, some African Americans are trying to down play the gains that have been made in the last 40 years.

We talk past each other, never giving ear to the reality of each's experience.

Ferd, I love talking to you. I wish I had your knowledge.

But I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying that it wasn't about race, but I wonder when it became a racial issue. It could have been that way from the beginning, but since slavery existed with even white folks being slaves for hundreds and even thousands of years prior to the blacks being slaves in this country, I wonder if it started out being a racial issue.

Also, as you probably know, it was black merchants that sold many of those black slaves to their new owners. I'm sure we cannot claim that those blacks had a racial issue in doing that.

Regardless, there is no doubt that at some point it became a racial issue. Sadly, this card is still played today in places where it no longer exists.

I've been pulled over by black cops before. I've received tickets from black cops before. But never once has it crossed my mind that it was because I'm white that they did those actions. Yet I know white people in authority who are afraid to do much with black people under them because their actions are brought into question by the race card being played.

[Praxeas]

Dude. This isn't a partisian thing. Both Republicans and Democrats have done black people wrong.
True....actually everyone on the planet has done the black people wrong, including and especially blacks...While Whites in SA kept them down we had genocide with blacks on blacks in other places....and nobody from the UN did a thing.

Here in America there are a lot of successful blacks and the excuse that the white man is keeping them down is less of a credible excuse though racism STILL is alive and well. It is just not as systematic as it once was.

[Jermyn Davidson]

In one war, the blood of over 600k men was spilled to end the atrocities. That's not including the exponential numbers of those who also spilled their blood since that war.

You'd think that would be payment enough. I'm failing to see how my apology for something I personally know nothing about will do more than the blood shed by my ancestors who were there and saw it firsthand.



A physical written apology in letter format from you personally to every black person, or native american or whoever probably would not do much to placate anyone you do not know. More would be accomplished through our dealings we have with the folks we interact with on a day to day basis. A letter, even then may not be worth too much, but there are other things we can do.

The apology thing is a U.S and/or State government issue, IMO.

Most of the damage people are trying to deal with today, I am convinced, happened after slavery, well into the 1970's and maybe even the 1980's.


But your willingness to discuss this issue with an open heart shows your kindness-- and that's worth more than any "letter".

[HeavenlyOne]

Yeah, I think you are right.

Chris, click on my "Fighter's Instinct" hyperlink and you will see me.

*gasp!*

Yer....human!!


:D

[Jermyn Davidson]

lol in the flesh

[Ferd]

Ferd, I love talking to you. I wish I had your knowledge.

But I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying that it wasn't about race, but I wonder when it became a racial issue. It could have been that way from the beginning, but since slavery existed with even white folks being slaves for hundreds and even thousands of years prior to the blacks being slaves in this country, I wonder if it started out being a racial issue.

Also, as you probably know, it was black merchants that sold many of those black slaves to their new owners. I'm sure we cannot claim that those blacks had a racial issue in doing that.

Regardless, there is no doubt that at some point it became a racial issue. Sadly, this card is still played today in places where it no longer exists.

I've been pulled over by black cops before. I've received tickets from black cops before. But never once has it crossed my mind that it was because I'm white that they did those actions. Yet I know white people in authority who are afraid to do much with black people under them because their actions are brought into question by the race card being played.


I will read further, but I need to stop at me not understanding your point.

H1, I appreciate you. You know we agree on many points. On this one, it is all together that I do misunderstand your point, but that isnt based on not reading what you have written.

It is based on what you are saying, how you are saying it.

My basic premis is that we (on the white side of this issue) spend more time explaining how far we have come, or how it isnt our fault that things are as they are, or down playing the white roll in slavery (only 5% actually held slaves you know) or how we as individuals dont use the "N" word....etc

and not nearly enough energy/time acknowleging reality. Accepting the fact that race remains a major issue in Amercia, speaking about what we are activly doing about it.

Heavenly One, I get where you are coming from. But the ones that you would have hear you, will not because their experience tells them not to fight thru your defending of yourself.

my arguement is, we need to be a bit more vulnerable and honest. we dont do near enough of that.

[HeavenlyOne]

A physical written apology in letter format from you personally to every black person, or native american or whoever probably would not do much to placate anyone you do not know. More would be accomplished through our dealings we have with the folks we interact with on a day to day basis. A letter, even then may not be worth too much, but there are other things we can do.

The apology thing is a U.S and/or State government issue, IMO.

Most of the damage people are trying to deal with today, I am convinced, happened after slavery, well into the 1970's and maybe even the 1980's.


But your willingness to discuss this issue with an open heart shows your kindness-- and that's worth more than any "letter".

My friend, I'm a friend to all, regardless of race or color. I love the diversity in us all, and even enjoy discussion our differences.

I don't know what it's like to be black. I don't know what it's like to be hispanic. I don't know what it's like to be Catholic.

But I have friends who are. I have other friends who aren't any of those.

To learn, I have to discuss issues that may seem taboo to many. I am comfortable speaking to those who are also comfortable. I'm also comfortable in joking about our differences to those who are also comfortable.

For instance, I had three friends growing up who were special to me.

Tracy and Cina were black sisters. Carol was my white friend.

We would take pictures with Carol and I in the middle, and Tracy and Cina on the ends. We referred to ourselves as 'double-stuffed', referencing the Oreo cookie by that name....LOL!

Thanks for your honesty in discussing this issue that can so easily offend and cause hurt.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Do you have Bible for that?

I stand corrected. King Solomon himself was not black, but the "object of his love" in the Song of Solomon was indeed black.

Jesus was a Mulatto, a mixed breed, and just one generation ago, would have been considered an abomination by many good-hearted but ignorant Christian folk.

To add, there are quite a few "Christians" opposed to mixed race marriages-- whatever the reasoning, it is still a glaring example of racially biased ignorance.

[MissBrattified]

I stand corrected. King Solomon himself was not black, but the "object of his love" in the Song of Solomon was indeed black.

Jesus was a Mulatto, a mixed breed, and just one generation ago, would have been considered an abomination by many good-hearted but ignorant Christian folk.

What were his mixed origins?

[HeavenlyOne]

True....actually everyone on the planet has done the black people wrong, including and especially blacks...While Whites in SA kept them down we had genocide with blacks on blacks in other places....and nobody from the UN did a thing.

Here in America there are a lot of successful blacks and the excuse that the white man is keeping them down is less of a credible excuse though racism STILL is alive and well. It is just not as systematic as it once was.

Racism from whites isn't all there is. Blacks, hispanics, and Indians are also racist in certain areas.

Racism isn't a color problem. It's a human one. It even existed in Biblical days. One can even say that for a time, God was racist in making the Jews His chosen people. ;)

[Ferd]

Ferd, I love talking to you. I wish I had your knowledge.

But I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying that it wasn't about race, but I wonder when it became a racial issue. It could have been that way from the beginning, but since slavery existed with even white folks being slaves for hundreds and even thousands of years prior to the blacks being slaves in this country, I wonder if it started out being a racial issue.

Also, as you probably know, it was black merchants that sold many of those black slaves to their new owners. I'm sure we cannot claim that those blacks had a racial issue in doing that.

Regardless, there is no doubt that at some point it became a racial issue. Sadly, this card is still played today in places where it no longer exists.

I've been pulled over by black cops before. I've received tickets from black cops before. But never once has it crossed my mind that it was because I'm white that they did those actions. Yet I know white people in authority who are afraid to do much with black people under them because their actions are brought into question by the race card being played.

dealing now with the spicifics. You are right, at first in Europe slavery was a white on white event. eventually peasantry replaced slavery by and large.

at some point, slavery began to go to Africa to get slaves. in the New World, there was a lot more need for manual labor than there was a pool of people to pull from. You had indentured servants from Eruope that came here, but you also had a very cheep resource coming from Africa.

Yes black merchants in Africa were capturing other Blacks to sell as slaves, as they had for a thousand years. but thru this process in America (which is what we are talking about), long before America was a nation, slavery became by and large a race related issue.

Before the foundation of the States, there were free Black people, and in many instances blacks and whites married with little reaction from the communities.

As time progressed, and as sentements against slavery began to gell, it was in the interest of slave owners to foment attitudes about blacks that would keep the majority of poor whites from identifying with black slaves.

it became such a race issue BEFORE the civil war that even Abraham Lincoln stated quite matter of factly that Blacks did not have the intelectual capability of Whites.

After the Civil War, Reconstruction became a punishment to those who fought for the South. That fostered further racial hatred toward the freed slaves.

once Reconstruction ended, the south was devistated, and there was no law to prevent whites from ecalating violence against blacks.

Black people were forced into enclaves and while "free" they were non the less, seperated from the white population. This was all about race and it was the law of the land (see Plessy vs. Ferguson). It was ALL about race.

Jump forward to today. Plessy is dead, we have laws on the books that make it criminal to discriminate, but we are still having this conversation.

Racism/prejudice is not dead. dying maybe. certainly not what it was during the days of Selma, but we have not come to the place of our land being healed.

[HeavenlyOne]

I will read further, but I need to stop at me not understanding your point.

H1, I appreciate you. You know we agree on many points. On this one, it is all together that I do misunderstand your point, but that isnt based on not reading what you have written.

It is based on what you are saying, how you are saying it.

My basic premis is that we (on the white side of this issue) spend more time explaining how far we have come, or how it isnt our fault that things are as they are, or down playing the white roll in slavery (only 5% actually held slaves you know) or how we as individuals dont use the "N" word....etc

and not nearly enough energy/time acknowleging reality. Accepting the fact that race remains a major issue in Amercia, speaking about what we are activly doing about it.

Heavenly One, I get where you are coming from. But the ones that you would have hear you, will not because their experience tells them not to fight thru your defending of yourself.

my arguement is, we need to be a bit more vulnerable and honest. we dont do near enough of that.

I hear ya, and I agree.

I have friends who use the N word. They know I don't like it and I tell them every time I hear it.

When I was about 16, I got in the bad habit of calling my brother the N word. I can honestly say it wasn't a racial thing, just a bad name to call him. I also called him that in a joking manner.

My lesson came the night I had a black co-worker over to my house. She was in her mid 30's, but we worked together and she was visiting my mother and I.

My brother and I were playing cards. He won. I called him a N. Horror then filled my mind as I realized what I'd said that came only as habit.

I looked at my friend and she was laughing. I wasn't. She later explained that the look on my face is what cracked her up. I stumbled trying to explain to her why I'd used that word. She said she wasn't offended, but offended or not, I can tell you that I never used that word again. It's a lesson I'll never forget.

It really bothers me to hear anyone, black or white, but especially Apostolics, using that word. We won't advance past the racial divide until we stop making it wider.

[DividedThigh]

I hear ya, and I agree.

I have friends who use the N word. They know I don't like it and I tell them every time I hear it.

When I was about 16, I got in the bad habit of calling my brother the N word. I can honestly say it wasn't a racial thing, just a bad name to call him. I also called him that in a joking manner.

My lesson came the night I had a black co-worker over to my house. She was in her mid 30's, but we worked together and she was visiting my mother and I.

My brother and I were playing cards. He won. I called him a N. Horror then filled my mind as I realized what I'd said that came only as habit.

I looked at my friend and she was laughing. I wasn't. She later explained that the look on my face is what cracked her up. I stumbled trying to explain to her why I'd used that word. She said she wasn't offended, but offended or not, I can tell you that I never used that word again. It's a lesson I'll never forget.

It really bothers me to hear anyone, black or white, but especially Apostolics, using that word. We won't advance past the racial divide until we stop making it wider.

good for you HO, your heart took care of that didnt it, dt

[MissBrattified]

*bump*

I stand corrected. King Solomon himself was not black, but the "object of his love" in the Song of Solomon was indeed black.

Jesus was a Mulatto, a mixed breed, and just one generation ago, would have been considered an abomination by many good-hearted but ignorant Christian folk.

What were his mixed origins?

[HeavenlyOne]

I stand corrected. King Solomon himself was not black, but the "object of his love" in the Song of Solomon was indeed black.

Jesus was a Mulatto, a mixed breed, and just one generation ago, would have been considered an abomination by many good-hearted but ignorant Christian folk.

To add, there are quite a few "Christians" opposed to mixed race marriages-- whatever the reasoning, it is still a glaring example of racially biased ignorance.

I have to admit that I'm opposed to mixed-race marriages in certain situations.

Allow me to clarify what I mean by that.

I know lots of black/white couples. Most of them have children together. While most of those children are well adjusted, many of them are not.

There is just something about the polar extremes that is unique from other mixed marriages of, say, white/hispanic, japanese/cuban, or filipino/brazilian.

I believe that Obama himself falls into that category of those products of such mixed marriages that have a problem with it.

I know a girl who's dad is black and mom is white who doesn't look white in any way. Her dad is very dark, making their three children look more like him. In fact, they don't look white in any way.

She doesn't like being black. She wants to be white like her mom. She wants a white husband and white children. She doesn't have a choice, even though she has as much white blood in her that she does black.

Obama himself was raised white. He lived with his white mom, white grandparents, and attended white schools, even through graduate school. He's lived in a white world, and I believe that his connection with this church is his way of connecting with a world he never knew until adulthood. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Ok, so I don't really have a problem with mixed marriages, but I think those who enter into them should give thought about how to deal with the feelings of their children who are part of both worlds, but really belong to neither.

[HeavenlyOne]

dealing now with the spicifics. You are right, at first in Europe slavery was a white on white event. eventually peasantry replaced slavery by and large.

at some point, slavery began to go to Africa to get slaves. in the New World, there was a lot more need for manual labor than there was a pool of people to pull from. You had indentured servants from Eruope that came here, but you also had a very cheep resource coming from Africa.

Yes black merchants in Africa were capturing other Blacks to sell as slaves, as they had for a thousand years. but thru this process in America (which is what we are talking about), long before America was a nation, slavery became by and large a race related issue.

Before the foundation of the States, there were free Black people, and in many instances blacks and whites married with little reaction from the communities.

As time progressed, and as sentements against slavery began to gell, it was in the interest of slave owners to foment attitudes about blacks that would keep the majority of poor whites from identifying with black slaves.

it became such a race issue BEFORE the civil war that even Abraham Lincoln stated quite matter of factly that Blacks did not have the intelectual capability of Whites.

After the Civil War, Reconstruction became a punishment to those who fought for the South. That fostered further racial hatred toward the freed slaves.

once Reconstruction ended, the south was devistated, and there was no law to prevent whites from ecalating violence against blacks.

Black people were forced into enclaves and while "free" they were non the less, seperated from the white population. This was all about race and it was the law of the land (see Plessy vs. Ferguson). It was ALL about race.

Jump forward to today. Plessy is dead, we have laws on the books that make it criminal to discriminate, but we are still having this conversation.

Racism/prejudice is not dead. dying maybe. certainly not what it was during the days of Selma, but we have not come to the place of our land being healed.

Ferd, you remind me of my son's fifth grade teacher.

we lived in Virginia that year, and his teacher was black. At first, I have to admit I was worried. Living in southern Illinois all his life and having little exposure to black people (mainly when we went to visit my friends near Chicago), we were now the minority, and I wasn't sure how he would handle that.

Well, he handled it well, and so did I. His teacher spoke about the history of Virginia in such a way that it just took you back to that time. Let me state that the reason why I was there is because my son wasn't known for behaving himself in class, and required my presence many times...LOL!

I have to say that he believes, as well as myself, that she's the best teacher he's ever had. He's now a junior in high school and still speaks of her to this day.

Ferd, you take me back.

[HeavenlyOne]

good for you HO, your heart took care of that didnt it, dt

My heart still sinks just thinking about that day.

[DividedThigh]

My heart still sinks just thinking about that day.

i understand, you hurt for the hurt, and are embarassed for the trodden down, it is a good sign your conscience works, His spirit is still alive in you, joy is ahead as long as he reigns, have a great easter, dt

[Pressing-On]

My heart still stinks just thinking about that day.
Wut?

:bliss

[HeavenlyOne]

Wut?

:bliss

Listen, you!!

:smack

[Encryptus]

BUMP for C.H.

And yet as H.O. has stated and been ignored, the worst is the black on black crime. Beginning with the black muslims who were the slave traders in Africa, and are among the few who still perpetuate it to this day. Where is the demand for apology from them??

It's the liberal concept of reparations and entitlements which harm the blacks more than the isolated and relatively rare white on black baises which exist in the United States. Get a grip, white slave holders were an extreme minority, and last I read it was NOT a slave rebellion which ended slavery it was white man's blood.

The victim mentality is a tool used by liberals to garner votes and ease mythical "white man's burden". Race bias is indeed alive and well in the good ole US of A, and it is often manifest from the blacks toward the whites.

Mexican/Anglo relations where strained in Texas. Atrocities committed. But the past is the past there.

If logic doesn't move you try statistics. Mexican Americans are according to statistics the highest number of victims of crime based solely on race, but we don't hear of these types of postings.

Why??? Even though CURRENTLY they face such bias? Because they have not succumbed to a professional victim mentality propagated by their leaders and liberal whites.

[Jermyn Davidson]

*bump*



What were his mixed origins?


Wasn't Ruth a Moabite and then there's the prostitute Rahab who I don't believe was Jewish.

[MissBrattified]

Wasn't Ruth a Moabite and then there's the prostitute Rahab who I don't believe was Jewish.

Oh, I see. :)

I thought you were saying he was 1/2 one race and 1/2 another. (Which is what I would define as a "mulatto.") As far as the man, Jesus, the only biological parent was Mary, so Joseph's bloodline was physically irrelevant.

But I agree--the bloodline of Christ (and David) contained at least a couple of Gentiles.

[BrotherEastman]

Dude....my first pastor used the "N" word and called mixed babies an abomination. He also refused to conduct mixed weddings. I sat under him until his death. His ministry was powerful and valuable to me. Would you consider me a racist?
I'll only answer that question with this question. Was this pastor you set under who used those words as prominent as Rev Jerimiah Wright? What about you, are you as prominant as Barack Obama? Are you going to run for president? Big difference Dude!

[Mr. Steinway]

I'll only answer that question with this question. Was this pastor you set under who used those words as prominent as Rev Jerimiah Wright? What about you, are you as prominant as Barack Obama? Are you going to run for president? Big difference Dude!
When you have political asperations, you choose your friends and aquaintences wisely. Obama said that the Rev. Wright was like an uncle that he disagrees with every once in a while.

hmmmmmm.......you can choose your friends, but you're STUCK with family!! You have to work with your relationship with your uncle, but you you can choose a different pastor or friend if you go sideways in beliefs.

There was an interesting statistic I read today somewhere that said only 35% of whites will stay with the same church over their lifetime, while 70% of blacks will stay. The reasoning was that in the black culture, they are more loyal and seem to want to work through their differences more.

[dizzyde]

I think Sen. Obama is desperately trying to win a nomination, and in the process realizes he MUST distance himself from the statements of his pastor.

I don't think he is "race-baiting...'

Without going through every page of this thread, I'm sure that someone has already agreed with this, but yes, I agree with you Barb. I think that the only thing that Obama was doing with this speech is absolutely affirm he is learning how to be a consummate politician.

As a politician in his current position, the stance that he took with this speech is really the only one that he could have with out completely alienating everyone. He rode the fence, and personally, I don't fault him for that. That is after all what politicians do if they have any hope of making it.

Which is why nothing much that comes out of any politicians mouth means anything to me.

[Ron]

Without going through every page of this thread, I'm sure that someone has already agreed with this, but yes, I agree with you Barb. I think that the only thing that Obama was doing with this speech is absolutely affirm he is learning how to be a consummate politician.

As a politician in his current position, the stance that he took with this speech is really the only one that he could have with out completely alienating everyone. He rode the fence, and personally, I don't fault him for that. That is after all what politicians do if they have any hope of making it.

Which is why nothing much that comes out of any politicians mouth means anything to me.

Eureka!

Another revelation comes!

Sad but true.

[ChristopherHall]

I think Obama is attempting Damage Control. He had to have known what his own Pastor believed and preached. Him denying it makes me really wonder about the man....either he is lying or he just calls this his church in order to say he is a Christian (but never attends really).

And yes that is enough to make me not want to vote for him. Ok McCain had an affair...so far we just don't know if Obama did or not, but there is enough going on as it is to not trust him.

I can agree with some of what you said. I definitely think Obama is in damage control mode. I'd be really upset if I were running for President and my pastor said something that could be so inflammatory. I also agree that Obama had to know what his former pastor believed and taught. But I do think he sees it differently than we do. Most likely one on one and in person Jeremiah is a very likable man who respects people of all colors. However behind the pulpit I'm sure Obama has heard him say things that pushed the envelope. We all know preachers do this sometimes to capture the congregation's attention or shock them into considering implications of what is being said. I'm sure Obama heard these sermons but viewed them as extremely passionate civil rights preaching. Know how his pastor respects all people he probably never saw as being racist in any way. Obama most likely walked away from many a sermon challenged. Challenged to address the social issues facing his people and people in poverty. Obama isn't a preacher, he probably has a "Jeremiah Light" approach that takes some of Jeremiah's vision for social justice and tempers it with political experience and knowledge.

It's strange...but we human beings can listen to a single speaker or read a single poem and walk away with different impressions based on how we think personally.

I think if someone was going to vote for Obama before this they're most likely intelligent enough to look into the deeper issues underlying this situation. I'm white and most of the white folks I know who are supporting Obama are the kind that seek to understand as opposed to being reactionary.

[ChristopherHall]

:laffatu WHITE!


And anything remotely negative spoken against Blacks by any one in the Media, celeb, political offices, etc..... it's all over for that person.

Then I'd have to agree with you. LOL

It's like family. I have a rather rude and obnoxious uncle. He comes over and visits on Christmas and we put up with him. We all kinda talk about him...but don't let another person outside of the family talk about him. We'll defend each other. That's just the way things are. LOL

I see this much the same way. Blacks can talk about blacks and issues facing blacks. They can criticize one another and go back and forth on the issues. They're a family. But...let a little white guy like me jump in and start criticizing or trying to "correct" them with how they see the world and look out! LOL

Bro...that's just life man.

[ChristopherHall]

Perhaps it would be better to say, I'm surprised that so many white folks who are also Apostolic still think like this.

I'm still not sure why that makes you embarrassed to be Apostolic, considering the numbers of white folks who are Apostolic.

LOL It was a figure of speech sis.

I think it's more than just "white folks who are also Apostolic". From where I come from I'm not surprised to hear of white folk who have some of the views expressed. But an Apostolic...now that is something we have to really look at . An Apostolic should be some one who seeks to understand other races, their perspectives, their battles, and seek healing and common ground. It doesn't mean we don't disagree on some things...but we all can agree that the underlying issue of pain and distrust, especially for those in Jeremiah's generation is very real and what is said should be understood in that context.

[ChristopherHall]

We talk past each other, never giving ear to the reality of each's experience.

AMEN!

[ChristopherHall]

Yeah, I think you are right.

Chris, click on my "Fighter's Instinct" hyperlink and you will see me.

Cool pic man. You're a Marine. How long have you been in?

[ChristopherHall]

I'll only answer that question with this question. Was this pastor you set under who used those words as prominent as Rev Jerimiah Wright? What about you, are you as prominant as Barack Obama? Are you going to run for president? Big difference Dude!

I guess I just don't put these guys up on pedestals. They're just as human and you and me.

[ChristopherHall]

When you have political asperations, you choose your friends and aquaintences wisely. Obama said that the Rev. Wright was like an uncle that he disagrees with every once in a while.

hmmmmmm.......you can choose your friends, but you're STUCK with family!! You have to work with your relationship with your uncle, but you you can choose a different pastor or friend if you go sideways in beliefs.

I think it's easy to say, "Just leave the pastor." But often doing so is difficult...especially if he's like family and has played a cherished role in your life. Yep, you may disagree with him on some things...but he's your pastor. My first pastor was a man I disagreed with on several things...but I couldn't "choose" a different pastor. I served under him until he died. While I disagreed on many things he believed (example, he thought mixed marriages were sin) he was very special to me. I'd say he was more special than even many of my blood relatives.

There was an interesting statistic I read today somewhere that said only 35% of whites will stay with the same church over their lifetime, while 70% of blacks will stay. The reasoning was that in the black culture, they are more loyal and seem to want to work through their differences more.

That is interesting.

[CC1]

LOL It was a figure of speech sis.

I think it's more than just "white folks who are also Apostolic". From where I come from I'm not surprised to hear of white folk who have some of the views expressed. But an Apostolic...now that is something we have to really look at . An Apostolic should be some one who seeks to understand other races, their perspectives, their battles, and seek healing and common ground. It doesn't mean we don't disagree on some things...but we all can agree that the underlying issue of pain and distrust, especially for those in Jeremiah's generation is very real and what is said should be understood in that context.


Us mean ole folks who believe in personal responsibility and accountibility, that words do matter, embarress you?

It is funny how things get turned around and because we are holding Obama accountible for submitting himself and his family to the spiritual leadership of a hate mongering racist we suddenly are racist, don't understand black folks, and are an embarressment. Hmmmmm...... The liberal educational system and media must be so proud of you.

[HeavenlyOne]

I think it's easy to say, "Just leave the pastor." But often doing so is difficult...especially if he's like family and has played a cherished role in your life. Yep, you may disagree with him on some things...but he's your pastor. My first pastor was a man I disagreed with on several things...but I couldn't "choose" a different pastor. I served under him until he died. While I disagreed on many things he believed (example, he thought mixed marriages were sin) he was very special to me. I'd say he was more special than even many of my blood relatives.



That is interesting.

Uh, Chris, do you realize that he refers to the man as his former pastor now?

Doesn't seem like he had a problem leaving when the media started hounding him!!!

[ChristopherHall]

Us mean ole folks who believe in personal responsibility and accountibility, that words do matter, embarress you?

It is funny how things get turned around and because we are holding Obama accountible for submitting himself and his family to the spiritual leadership of a hate mongering racist we suddenly are racist, don't understand black folks, and are an embarressment. Hmmmmm...... The liberal educational system and media must be so proud of you.

Obama's pastor isn't "racist". Passionate about his people's struggles? Yes. Focused on issues facing them? Yes. A bit misinformed regarding AIDS and the like? Yes. But a "racist"? No.

Don't you see how you're adding gasoline to the fire? The man's generation saw many injustices and discrimination. That's going to come out in his world view. He's a product of his era and his experiences.

Honestly I don't think many of us here understand black folks. We have a black brother here that has expressed as much also. And yes...no offense...but sometimes I find it embarrassing.

[HeavenlyOne]

Obama's pastor isn't "racist". Passionate about his people's struggles? Yes. Focused on issues facing them? Yes. A bit misinformed regarding AIDS and the like? Yes. But a "racist"? No.

Don't you see how you're adding gasoline to the fire? The man's generation saw many injustices and discrimination. That's going to come out in his world view. He's a product of his era and his experiences.

Honestly I don't think many of us here understand black folks. We have a black brother here that has expressed as much also. And yes...no offense...but sometimes I find it embarrassing.

Chris, there are black folks, even ones in power, who have a problem with the man. It's not just white folks who have a problem with him. Quit adding fuel to the fire by giving them excuses and say that 'we' don't understand them.

They aren't giving him the excuses that you are. I find that telling.

And that black brother you mention? I haven't seen him post those sentiments that you attribute to him. Not once did he say nor imply that he isn't understood by white folks. That's just silly.

[Praxeas]

Wasn't Ruth a Moabite and then there's the prostitute Rahab who I don't believe was Jewish.
Ruth was in David's lineage...was Rahab? Anyways....Jesus is so far far removed from Ruth that he can't be called "mixed". That's absurd. If that is the case just about everyone in America is "mixed".

And racially....was Ruth black? What was she? In fact the Moabites lived in the same region...making them semitic just like the Israelites

ISBE
The Moabites were of Semitic stock and of kin to the Hebrews, as is indicated by their descent from Lot, the nephew of Abraham (Gen_19:30-37), and by their language which is practically the same as the Hebrew. This is clear from the inscription on the Moabite Stone, a monument of Mesha, king of Moab, erected about 850 BC, and discovered among the ruins of Dibon in 1868. It contains 34 lines of about 9 words each, written in the old Phoenician and Hebrew characters, corresponding to the Siloam inscription and those found in Phoenicia, showing that it is a dialect of the Semitic tongue prevailing in Palestine.

[ChristopherHall]

Uh, Chris, do you realize that he refers to the man as his former pastor now?

Doesn't seem like he had a problem leaving when the media started hounding him!!!

I know. Isn't that sad that a man had to abandon his pastor because so many whites can't handle the fire of a black preacher who grew up in a generation steeped in racism and discrimination. The man condemned America for her mistreatment of an entire people. And then summed it up by saying,

"God America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Sis...social evils ranging from abortion to the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment* are indeed America acting "like she is God and she is supreme". And yes...God will condemn America for our wickedness if we don't repent.

Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell condemned America by stating that 9/11 was the result of America's pro-abortion pro-homosexual culture. I see Jeremiah Wright as adding his voice to the chorus being sure to include America's original sins...racism and oppression.


Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmtuskegee1.html

For forty years between 1932 and [B]1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,” their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all.

The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die.”


The Legacy of Tuskegee

In 1990, a survey found that 10 percent of African Americans believed that the U.S. government created AIDS as a plot to exterminate blacks, and another 20 percent could not rule out the possibility that this might be true. As preposterous and paranoid as this may sound, at one time the Tuskegee experiment must have seemed equally farfetched.

Who could imagine the government, all the way up to the Surgeon General of the United States, deliberately allowing a group of its citizens to die from a terrible disease for the sake of an ill-conceived experiment? In light of this and many other shameful episodes in our history, African Americans' widespread mistrust of the government and white society in general should not be a surprise to anyone.

[Praxeas]

Most likely one on one and in person Jeremiah is a very likable man who respects people of all colors.
How can you say that? Most likely? Based on what? Anyone can appear likable

However behind the pulpit I'm sure Obama has heard him say things that pushed the envelope. We all know preachers do this sometimes to capture the congregation's attention or shock them into considering implications of what is being said.
If I heard any Pastor say something THAT extreme and racially charged I would have a problem with it too. This goes beyond the "get your attention" factor. Anytime anyone does it, I would say it was a stupid move if they did not really believe it to be true

I'm sure Obama heard these sermons but viewed them as extremely passionate civil rights preaching. You're sure? How can you be sure? Let's deal with facts. The pastor said it. Obama says he never heard it but strongly condemns those things that were said.....hmmmmm

Know how his pastor respects all people he probably never saw as being racist in any way.
Again....you know this for a fact?

Obama most likely walked away from many a sermon challenged.
Most Likely???? What do you base this on?

Challenged to address the social issues facing his people and people in poverty. Obama isn't a preacher, he probably has a "Jeremiah Light" approach that takes some of Jeremiah's vision for social justice and tempers it with political experience and knowledge.
Same with above....

It's strange...but we human beings can listen to a single speaker or read a single poem and walk away with different impressions based on how we think personally.
Even Obama distanced himself from what the preacher said....Apparently he thinks enough of the voters would see it the way many of us here do too. It seems pretty explicit. Did the preacher himself say he was misunderstood? Did Obama?

I think if someone was going to vote for Obama before this they're most likely intelligent enough to look into the deeper issues underlying this situation. I'm white and most of the white folks I know who are supporting Obama are the kind that seek to understand as opposed to being reactionary
Some people are also idealistic and look at things through rose colored glasses. Sorry, but Im just looking at the facts. It's not about feelings. I defended Obama against the Muslim accusations....because I just looked at the facts

[ChristopherHall]

How can you say that? Most likely? Based on what? Anyone can appear likable

It's called the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him personally. Do you?

If I heard any Pastor say something THAT extreme and racially charged I would have a problem with it too. This goes beyond the "get your attention" factor. Anytime anyone does it, I would say it was a stupid move if they did not really believe it to be true

Clearly it would be too charged for you. However, I've read quite a bit on black history and America's treatment of the black people. I wouldn't be surprised by it.

You're sure? How can you be sure? Let's deal with facts. The pastor said it. Obama says he never heard it but strongly condemns those things that were said.....hmmmmm

Obama has to condemn it...but at the same time Obama asked that we understand Jeremiah's generation. Obama claims he never heard it. Again, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Again....you know this for a fact?

It's called the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him personally. Do you?

Most Likely???? What do you base this on?

It's called the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him personally. Do you?

[Praxeas]

It's called the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him personally. Do you?
Benefit of the doubt does not declare him one way or another...it just denies guilt. You are declaring for him what he must have really thought...same with the pastor. Im just looking at the facts

Clearly it would be too charged for you. However, I've read quite a bit on black history and America's treatment of the black people. I wouldn't be surprised by it. Oh brother...yes you alone know about America's treatment of blacks and black history. Good grief.

Obama has to condemn it...but at the same time Obama asked that we understand Jeremiah's generation. Obama claims he never heard it. Again, I give him the benefit of the doubt.No. He does not have to condemn it. And you did not give him the benefit of the doubt....really what you did was implicate him as a liar.

It's called the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him personally. Do you?No it is not called the benefit of the doubt. Again the benefit of the doubt simply denies one claim...not make up another one for him. You use terms like most likely.....that is not the benefit of the doubt. That takes knowledge to say most likely.....not a guess. The benefit of the doubt would take an accusation and simply say "well I will hold off on judgement until more facts are presented"...You are using very specific terms that imply knowledge. Again, we have the facts, from his own mouth. This was his church and his pastor. I know what my pastor preaches....even if I miss some services I still KNOW what the man preaches and believes. He is Oneness....I know what Oneness teaches. That is HIS theology. Obama denounced the Preachers words as wrong....those are the facts. Obama is running for office. Those are the facts.

It's called the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him personally. Do you?Polly want a cracker? :ursofunny

[ChristopherHall]

Look, Jeremiah Wright can remember when the news broke about the experiment on black people. He can also remember the last lynching. Also he can remember the protests for civil rights and the police action that followed. It shouldn't make us faint like little ladies that he would hold such views. And it shouldn't make us wonder abotu why Obama isn't hanging him out to dry.

I also think calling his pastor a racist hatemongerer is just as inflammatory as the statements he made. It's being part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. Would a black racist hate mongerer have a while lady serving in the ministry of his church?

[Pressing-On]

Look, Jeremiah Wright can remember when the news broke about the experiment on black people. He can also remember the last lynching. Also he can remember the protests for civil rights and the police action that followed. It shouldn't make us faint like little ladies that he would hold such views. And it shouldn't make us wonder abotu why Obama isn't hanging him out to dry.

I also think calling his pastor a racist hatemongerer is just as inflammatory as the statements he made. It's being part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. Would a black racist hate mongerer have a while lady serving in the ministry of his church?

This article by Ann Coulter pretty well sums up the situation, for me.

(excerpt)

Throw Grandma Under The Bus
By Ann Coulter
Wednesday, March 19, 2008

Obama tried to justify Wright's deranged rants by explaining that "legalized discrimination" is the "reality in which Rev. Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up." He said that a "lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families."

That may accurately describe the libretto of "Porgy and Bess," but it has no connection to reality. By Rev. Wright's own account, he was 12 years old and was attending an integrated school in Philadelphia when Brown v. Board of Education was announced, ending "separate but equal" schooling.

Meanwhile, at least since the Supreme Court's decision in University of California v. Bakke in 1978 -- and obviously long before that, or there wouldn't have been a case or controversy for the court to consider -- it has been legal for the government to discriminate against whites on the basis of their race.

Consequently, any white person 30 years old or younger has lived, since the day he was born, in an America where it is legal to discriminate against white people. In many cases it's not just legal, but mandatory, for example, in education, in hiring and in Academy Award nominations.

So for half of Rev. Wright's 66 years, discrimination against blacks was legal -- though he never experienced it personally because it existed in a part of the country where he did not live. For the second half of Wright's life, discrimination against whites was legal throughout the land.

Discrimination has become so openly accepted that -- in a speech meant to tamp down his association with a black racist -- Obama felt perfectly comfortable throwing his white grandmother under the bus. He used her as the white racist counterpart to his black racist "old uncle," Rev. Wright.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2008/03/19/throw_grandma_under_the_bus?page=1

[ChristopherHall]

This article by Ann Coulter pretty well sums up the situation, for me.

(excerpt)

Ann Coulter's a joke. Who is she to define a man's experiences, opinions, or convictions? Sometimes one doesn't have to experience injustice personally to be moved to conviction on the matter. Many times it's actually the person removed from the injustice, who sees the injustice toward a friend or family member, and discovers there is little they can do about it. And that sends them into what is called advocacy.

You should know that.

[DividedThigh]

i have to say that i respect ann coulters opinion more than the wind, dt lol:bliss

[TRFrance]

This article by Ann Coulter pretty well sums up the situation, for me.

(excerpt)
Ann Coulter (along with Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc) is one of the reasons why so many blacks dislike conservatives. She's among many conservative commentators who groan about "political correctness" or "reverse discrimination" against whites, but never seems too bothered by discrimination against people of color.

I find this "selective indignation" to be hypocritical and truly nauseating.

[Pressing-On]

Ann Coulter's a joke. Who is she to define a man's experiences, opinions, or convictions? Sometimes one doesn't have to experience injustice personally to be moved to conviction on the matter. Many times it's actually the person removed from the injustice, who sees the injustice toward a friend or family member, and discovers there is little they can do about it. And that sends them into what is called advocacy.

You should know that.
LOL! Yes, I have to agree. Sometimes her statements are a joke, but her point is that he is acting as though he lived through more than he did. I agree with her on that point.

[Pressing-On]

Ann Coulter (along with Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc) is one of the reasons why so many blacks dislike conservatives. She's among many conservative commentators who groan about "political correctness" or "reverse discrimination" against whites, but never seems too bothered by discrimination against people of color.

I find this "selective indignation" to be hypocritical and truly nauseating.
She still has a point that white people are being more discriminated against for their comments than other people of color. I have to agree with her on those points. Sorry!!! :tissue

[Pressing-On]

i have to say that i respect ann coulters opinion more than the wind, dt lol:bliss
:killinme

[CC1]

Obama's pastor isn't "racist". Passionate about his people's struggles? Yes. Focused on issues facing them? Yes. A bit misinformed regarding AIDS and the like? Yes. But a "racist"? No.

.

Chris,

It embarresses me that you would chraacterize someone accusing the Federal Government or CIA of creating the AIDS virus to kill Black people as "a bit misinformed".

That is a ridiculous marginalizing of outrageous statements.

You just refuse to deal with the concepts of personal responsibility and accountibility to truth and rationality that ALL Americans have regardless of their skin color.

When you make excuses for this kind of outrageous hate mongering you are not helping those you seek to help.

[COOPER]

Then I'd have to agree with you. LOL

It's like family. I have a rather rude and obnoxious uncle. He comes over and visits on Christmas and we put up with him. We all kinda talk about him...but don't let another person outside of the family talk about him. We'll defend each other. That's just the way things are. LOL

I see this much the same way. Blacks can talk about blacks and issues facing blacks. They can criticize one another and go back and forth on the issues. They're a family. But...let a little white guy like me jump in and start criticizing or trying to "correct" them with how they see the world and look out! LOL

Bro...that's just life man.

Not when it backed up by NAACP, Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Not when white men loose jobs by a slip of the Tongue.

....the last guy said "Nappy" ....give me a brake........


Look what happened to "The Dog".....

Blacks can basically say what ever they want, where ever want on any kind of media.

Let a Powerful white man insinuate anything about a Black and all civil rights groups come after him.


Whites are getting tired of it.

[Pressing-On]

Not when it backed up by NAACP, Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Not when white men loose jobs by a slip of the Tongue.

....the last guy said "Nappy" ....give me a brake........


Look what happened to "The Dog".....

Blacks can basically say what ever they want, where ever want on any kind of media.

Let a Powerful white man insinuate anything about a Black and all civil rights groups come after him.


Whites are getting tired of it.

Exactly!!!! That, in itself, is causing more racism, IMO.

[TRFrance]

She still has a point that white people are being more discriminated against for their comments than other people of color. I have to agree with her on those points. Sorry!!! :tissue

..."discriminated against for their comments"?

That may well be true, but that wasn't the focus of her article. She was referring not simply to making controversial comments, but she's saying:"... any white person 30 years old or younger has lived, since the day he was born, in an America where it is legal to discriminate against white people. In many cases it's not just legal, but mandatory, for example, in education, in hiring and in Academy Award nominations."
Why is it that she is only concerned with what she perceives as anti-white discrimination, but she and others like her always seem to have an excuse for anti-black and brown discrimination?

Conservative commentators want to crucify Barack & Wright for these recent comments (which I'm ok with, because the comments were outrageous) but they many of these people made excuses for Trent Lott's racist remarks, said nothing when Bush showed up at Bob Jones University (which has policy prohibiting interracial relationships among its students), and Sean Hannity himself was blatantly sympathetic to Duane "Dog" Chapman, the bounty hunter who was caught using the N-word repeatedly against his son's black girlfriend.

I could provide you with many more examples, but I don't even think I need to. If you dont see the racial double standard in a lot of these conservative talk radio hosts and commentators, you probably haven't really been paying close attention. There is clearly a racist element in much of today's conservative movement-- certainly, at least, in the way it tolerates and makes excuses for racist behavior against people of color, while getting indignant at perceived racial unfairness against whites.

[Jermyn Davidson]

[QUOTE=Praxeas;418799]Ruth was in David's lineage...was Rahab? Anyways....Jesus is so far far removed from Ruth that he can't be called "mixed". That's absurd. If that is the case just about everyone in America is "mixed".



BINGO!!!!

[Sam]

She still has a point that white people are being more discriminated against for their comments than other people of color. I have to agree with her on those points. Sorry!!! :tissue

We've seen the pendulum swing the other way. For years discrimination was legal and open. After protests such as Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, the Federal government enforced integration. Unfortunately things like racial quotas, set asides, etc. were part of that and resulted in what we call "reverse discrimination." I remember talking to a person at GE about a job he had open. He told me he would get "a star" if he hired a black person and "2 stars" if he hired a black woman. He hired a man who was black. I also remember back in the nineteen sixties when I was supposed to hire a person. This was before I went to GE. I was told by a manager a couple levels above me to hire a black (that was the acceptable term back then) person. This was a job to be filled by someone outside the company. I had a white person interview that I thought would be a better employee but I obeyed my superiors and hired a black person. Unfortunately he did not work out well and we had to let him go before his two month probationary period was over. In his speech Barack Obama also addressed the attitude of some of us white people who have seen "reverse discrimination" affect us personally.

[Ferd]

Chris,

It embarresses me that you would chraacterize someone accusing the Federal Government or CIA of creating the AIDS virus to kill Black people as "a bit misinformed".

That is a ridiculous marginalizing of outrageous statements.

You just refuse to deal with the concepts of personal responsibility and accountibility to truth and rationality that ALL Americans have regardless of their skin color.

When you make excuses for this kind of outrageous hate mongering you are not helping those you seek to help.
CC1, let me explain this to you.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

JW and CH share a common enemy. It is called those who are opposed to insane liberalism.

thus CH must defend in ally.

[TRFrance]

Chris,

It embarresses me that you would chraacterize someone accusing the Federal Government or CIA of creating the AIDS virus to kill Black people as "a bit misinformed".

That is a ridiculous marginalizing of outrageous statements.

You just refuse to deal with the concepts of personal responsibility and accountibility to truth and rationality that ALL Americans have regardless of their skin color.

When you make excuses for this kind of outrageous hate mongering you are not helping those you seek to help.

I must agree.
C Hall, for once, it would be refreshing to see you display the intellectual courage and honesty to say that this man's words were inflammatory, divisive, and just flat out wrong.

Would it pain you that much to state the obvious?

You know full well that if the roles were reversed.... if this was Huckabee/McCain etc, at a white church where a conservative pastor was making equally false and hateful comments, you would have no problem bashing him!

Are you so beholden to your liberal ideology that you'd have no problem criticizing a Republican/conservative in this situation, but you bend over backward to make excuses for a liberal who makes such false and inflammatory charges? That's how it's appearing to me, more and more. And I think that's unfortunate.

[Pressing-On]

We've seen the pendulum swing the other way. For years discrimination was legal and open. After protests such as Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, the Federal government enforced integration. Unfortunately things like racial quotas, set asides, etc. were part of that and resulted in what we call "reverse discrimination." I remember talking to a person at GE about a job he had open. He told me he would get "a star" if he hired a black person and "2 stars" if he hired a black woman. He hired a man who was black. I also remember back in the nineteen sixties when I was supposed to hire a person. This was before I went to GE. I was told by a manager a couple levels above me to hire a black (that was the acceptable term back then) person. This was a job to be filled by someone outside the company. I had a white person interview that I thought would be a better employee but I obeyed my superiors and hired a black person. Unfortunately he did not work out well and we had to let him go before his two month probationary period was over. In his speech Barack Obama also addressed the attitude of some of us white people who have seen "reverse discrimination" affect us personally.
I remember a former financee's father, an executive for Southwestern Bell, saying he was ordered to hire a black man, even though not qualified.

I didn't see the part of Obama's speech speaking on the "reverse discrimination". I'll check that out. Thanks.

[DividedThigh]

CC1, let me explain this to you.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

JW and CH share a common enemy. It is called those who are opposed to insane liberalism.

thus CH must defend in ally.

now that is just funny, and true, lol,dt

[Pressing-On]

..."discriminated against for their comments"?

That may well be true, but that wasn't the focus of her article. She was referring not simply to making controversial comments, but she's saying:"... any white person 30 years old or younger has lived, since the day he was born, in an America where it is legal to discriminate against white people. In many cases it's not just legal, but mandatory, for example, in education, in hiring and in Academy Award nominations."
Why is it that she is only concerned with what she perceives as anti-white discrimination, but she and others like her always seem to have an excuse for anti-black and brown discrimination?

Conservative commentators want to crucify Barack & Wright for these recent comments (which I'm ok with, because the comments were outrageous) but they many of these people made excuses for Trent Lott's racist remarks, said nothing when Bush showed up at Bob Jones University (which has policy prohibiting interracial relationships among its students), and Sean Hannity himself was blatantly sympathetic to Duane "Dog" Chapman, the bounty hunter who was caught using the N-word repeatedly against his son's black girlfriend.

I could provide you with many more examples, but I don't even think I need to. If you dont see the racial double standard in a lot of these conservative talk radio hosts and commentators, you probably haven't really been paying close attention. There is clearly a racist element in much of today's conservative movement-- certainly, at least, in the way it tolerates and makes excuses for racist behavior against people of color, while getting indignant at perceived racial unfairness against whites.
Perhaps I missed the element because I live in an area where we are dealing with illegal aliens in large scale. It is almost as if I am a minority now. I'm getting tired of it. I would go into detail, but I would be perceived as being racist when I am just wanting to point out the obvious.

I take Coulter as doing the same on this issue. JMO.

[DividedThigh]

I must agree.
C Hall, for once, it would be refreshing to see you display the intellectual courage and honesty to say that this man's words were inflammatory, divisive, and just flat out wrong.

Would it pain you that much to state the obvious?

You know full well that if the roles were reversed.... if this was Huckabee/McCain etc, at a white church where a conservative pastor was making equally false and hateful comments, you would have no problem bashing him!

Are you so beholden to your liberal ideology that you'd have no problem criticizing a Republican/conservative in this situation, but you bend over backward to make excuses for a liberal who makes such false and inflammatory charges? That's how it's appearing to me, more and more. And I think that's unfortunate.

well, well, well.............................................. ..........lol

[Jermyn Davidson]

I'll only answer that question with this question. Was this pastor you set under who used those words as prominent as Rev Jerimiah Wright? What about you, are you as prominant as Barack Obama? Are you going to run for president? Big difference Dude!

Jeremiah Wright wasn't all that prominent until Obama became a serious contender for the white house. I don't know Obama personally, but I don't think he had his eyes on the white house back in 2001 or 2002. There was some speech he made at the DNC, maybe in 2003 or 04 that brought him notoriety.

If he saw this coming, I think he would tried to "head it off at the pass".

I may run for President one day... glad I won't be the first black President though.
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[COOPER]

Originally Posted by CC1
Chris,

It embarrasses me that you would characterize someone accusing the Federal Government or CIA of creating the AIDS virus to kill Black people as "a bit misinformed".

That is a ridiculous marginalizing of outrageous statements.

You just refuse to deal with the concepts of personal responsibility and accountability to truth and rationality that ALL Americans have regardless of their skin color.

When you make excuses for this kind of outrageous hate mongering you are not helping those you seek to help.


That sounds just like The Nations of Islam teachings and Farrakhan.

They Believe that The Rich White Governments have had conspiracies against the Black race and other dark skins for centuries.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Oh, I see. :)

I thought you were saying he was 1/2 one race and 1/2 another. (Which is what I would define as a "mulatto.") As far as the man, Jesus, the only biological parent was Mary, so Joseph's bloodline was physically irrelevant.

But I agree--the bloodline of Christ (and David) contained at least a couple of Gentiles.


I was mistaken in using the term Mulatto.

[DividedThigh]

That sounds just like The Nations of Islam teachings and Farrakhan.

They Believe that The Rich White Governments have had conspiracies against the Black race and other dark skins for centuries.

well that makes sense there is a connection between these guys, lol,dt

[ReformedDave]

..."discriminated against for their comments"?

That may well be true, but that wasn't the focus of her article. She was referring not simply to making controversial comments, but she's saying:"... any white person 30 years old or younger has lived, since the day he was born, in an America where it is legal to discriminate against white people. In many cases it's not just legal, but mandatory, for example, in education, in hiring and in Academy Award nominations."
Why is it that she is only concerned with what she perceives as anti-white discrimination, but she and others like her always seem to have an excuse for anti-black and brown discrimination?

Conservative commentators want to crucify Barack & Wright for these recent comments (which I'm ok with, because the comments were outrageous) but they many of these people made excuses for Trent Lott's racist remarks, said nothing when Bush showed up at Bob Jones University (which has policy prohibiting interracial relationships among its students), and Sean Hannity himself was blatantly sympathetic to Duane "Dog" Chapman, the bounty hunter who was caught using the N-word repeatedly against his son's black girlfriend.

I could provide you with many more examples, but I don't even think I need to. If you dont see the racial double standard in a lot of these conservative talk radio hosts and commentators, you probably haven't really been paying close attention. There is clearly a racist element in much of today's conservative movement-- certainly, at least, in the way it tolerates and makes excuses for racist behavior against people of color, while getting indignant at perceived racial unfairness against whites.

I'm not a GWB supporter but to equate Bob Jones Un. (which I also don't support) with Wright's inflammatory comments is completely different. I may see the position against interracial 'relationships' as mis-informed and ignorant but I know many people of color that feel the same way. It is not always for bigotry that many take this stance.

For Obama to sit in Wright's church for 20 years and to claim that he never heard Wright make his remarks.....he must think we're smoking crack. On some level there is an attitude of acceptance.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Cool pic man. You're a Marine. How long have you been in?

In the Marines for 4 years, in the Army National Guard for 9 years.

[Ferd]

Jeremiah Wright wasn't all that prominent until Obama became a serious contender for the white house. I don't know Obama personally, but I don't think he had his eyes on the white house back in 2001 or 2002. There was some speech he made at the DNC, maybe in 2003 or 04 that brought him notoriety.

If he saw this coming, I think he would tried to "head it off at the pass".

I may run for President one day... glad I won't be the first black President though.
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

if you run as a conservitive republican I will vote for you!

but only if you stop messing up your quotes!

[COOPER]

well that makes sense there is a connection between these guys, lol,dt

http://www.noi.org/ here is a link.


I had a Foreman that was a Farrakhan follower.

He told me allot of bazaar teachings.

[Pressing-On]

In the Marines for 4 years, in the Army National Guard for 9 years.

:yourock

:thumbsup

[TRFrance]

Perhaps I missed the element because I live in an area where we are dealing with illegal aliens in large scale. It is almost as if I am a minority now. I'm getting tired of it. I would go into detail, but I would be perceived as being racist when I am just wanting to point out the obvious.
Good idea.
You know how message boards can get.
Things could take a downward turn real fast if you went there. LOL.


I take Coulter as doing the same on this issue. JMO.
I don't.
And I think you're looking at the issue from a different angle than I am, anyway.

But still... thanks for sharing, sister.

[Sam]

That sounds just like The Nations of Islam teachings and Farrakhan.

They Believe that The Rich White Governments have had conspiracies against the Black race and other dark skins for centuries.

Pastor Wright seems to think very highly of Farrakhan.

[DividedThigh]

In the Marines for 4 years, in the Army National Guard for 9 years.

i knew there was something about you that felt safe, my friend the warrior, dt

[Jermyn Davidson]

Uh, Chris, do you realize that he refers to the man as his former pastor now?

Doesn't seem like he had a problem leaving when the media started hounding him!!!


Jeremiah Wright is Obama's former Pastor only because he retired. IMO, if Wright was still preaching, he would still be Obama's Pastor, and the Pastor of over 8,000 other business owners, doctors, lawyers, theologians, and some uneducated folks are members of that congregation too.

The bigger question to me is why has Obama been the only one to come out and disown these statements? Why were these 8,000 members applauding and on their feet during this sermon?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Obama's pastor isn't "racist". Passionate about his people's struggles? Yes. Focused on issues facing them? Yes. A bit misinformed regarding AIDS and the like? Yes. But a "racist"? No.

Don't you see how you're adding gasoline to the fire? The man's generation saw many injustices and discrimination. That's going to come out in his world view. He's a product of his era and his experiences.

Honestly I don't think many of us here understand black folks. We have a black brother here that has expressed as much also. And yes...no offense...but sometimes I find it embarrassing.



I don't think Wright is racist either.

[Pressing-On]

Good idea.
You know how message boards can get.
Things could take a downward turn real fast if you went there. LOL.


I don't.
And I think you're looking at the issue from a different angle than I am, anyway.

But still... thanks for sharing, sister.
I think we are looking at it at different angles. I get her point, which is deeper than her printed words, IMO.

[Pressing-On]

I don't think Wright is racist either.
I do!!!!!!!! Boy, I sure do!!!!!! :D

[ReformedDave]

I do!!!!!!!! Boy, I sure do!!!!!! :D

Associating with Farrakhan............Naw. Not a racist.

[Sam]

...
For Obama to sit in Wright's church for 20 years and to claim that he never heard Wright make his remarks.....he must think we're smoking crack. On some level there is an attitude of acceptance.

In his speech, Obama did admit he had heard remarks like that from his pastor.

It bothers me that Barack Obama would be a part of that church for so long, that he would expose his children to that racist vitriol, and that he would support the church by his presence and financially. From what I've heard Oprah stated that she was uncomfortable there. However, that church has had a lot of programs that have helped minority people. Maybe Barack Obama looked at it like we OP's tell people to support their church based on an overall picture and not to bolt because we disagree with some of the things we hear from the pulpit --to go along because the good outweighs the bad.

[Sam]

I don't think Wright is racist either.

I think we are all racist at times.

[ReformedDave]

In his speech, Obama did admit he had heard remarks like that from his pastor.

It bothers me that Barack Obama would be a part of that church for so long, that he would expose his children to that racist vitriol, and that he would support the church by his presence and financially. From what I've heard Oprah stated that she was uncomfortable there. However, that church has had a lot of programs that have helped minority people. Maybe Barack Obama looked at it like we OP's tell people to support their church based on an overall picture and not to bolt because we disagree with some of the things we hear from the pulpit --to go along because the good outweighs the bad.

To ere is human.......(the worst enabling philosophy in history)

[Pressing-On]

I think we are all racist at times.

Sam, I think you are right or it is just things people do that annoy us and if that person is another color we call it racism?

[Jermyn Davidson]

I think that the widespread distrust of the American government is widespread, beyond the confines of American blacks. The reasons for that distrust will vary, depending on who you talk to.

As far as distrust of whites by blacks, I know many blacks, some older, some younger than me, who feel this way. Even some who are in the military feel this way, and I can't justify or not justify every person's reason(s) for that distrust.

I have said on more than one occasion when I found myself involved in conversations when these sentiments were expressed, "Most white people aren't racist and aren't trying to keep you down. They don't know you and they have too much on their plate to be worried about making sure your life is miserable."

I get a sincere chuckle out of the younger folks sometimes-- never out of the older folks though. There really is still a lot of pain and bitterness.

[TRFrance]

I'm not a GWB supporter but to equate Bob Jones Un. (which I also don't support) with Wright's inflammatory comments is completely different. I may see the position against interracial 'relationships' as mis-informed and ignorant but I know many people of color that feel the same way. It is not always for bigotry that many take this stance.

For Obama to sit in Wright's church for 20 years and to claim that he never heard Wright make his remarks.....he must think we're smoking crack. On some level there is an attitude of acceptance.

My dear brother....

The Bob Jones incident was particularly offensive to many black voters in this case, and I'll explain why.

Bush and his campaign were acutely aware of black dislinke/distrust of the Republican party. He campaigned as being a "compassionate conservative", "a uniter not a divider", etc. The Republican party was making concerted attempts to reach out to to blacks and Hispanics, constituencies that typically leaned Democratic...

He was warned before the Bob Jones thing not to go, as it would be offensive to many minorities that he'd go to a university that had a bigoted policy on interracial relationships. But he decided to go anyway.

That was seen as just another symptom of the disregard Republicans have shown for African-American concerns. He had a chance to make a statement, and do the right thing... but I guess he didn't want to tick off white South Carolina voters.

Not only did it show poor political judgment, but it served to make many blacks say "see, he's just like all the rest". Blacks then voted 91% Democrat in the 2000 elections -- the highest percentage ever for the Democrat party.

I may see the position against interracial 'relationships' as mis-informed and ignorant but I know many people of color that feel the same way. It is not always for bigotry that many take this stance.


Fine .You may make excuses for Bob Jones University if you like... but most of us see it plainly for what it was. Their policies against blacks and white dating... if it wasnt rooted in bigotry, what was it then? ... rooted in "concern" for those dating?

It's frankly none of their business, and it reeks of prejudice. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.... please don't try to convince me its not really a duck. I was born at night--but not last night.

[TRFrance]

Well, I'm no prophet, but let me just go on record as saying it...

I am fully convinced:
Obama is too badly damaged now. He will never recover from this.
John McCain will be our next president.

[Pressing-On]

I think that the widespread distrust of the American government is widespread, beyond the confines of American blacks. The reasons for that distrust will vary, depending on who you talk to.

As far as distrust of whites by blacks, I know many blacks, some older, some younger than me, who feel this way. Even some who are in the military feel this way, and I can't justify or not justify every person's reason(s) for that distrust.

I have said on more than one occasion when I found myself involved in conversations when these sentiments were expressed, "Most white people aren't racist and aren't trying to keep you down. They don't know you and they have too much on their plate to be worried about making sure your life is miserable."

I get a sincere chuckle out of the younger folks sometimes-- never out of the older folks though. There really is still a lot of pain and bitterness.
I agree. I hate it when I'm in the grocery store and a black person looks at you with such hatred. I want to say, "Good grief. What did I do to you?"

I think the media keeps all of this stirred up and I have read and believe that Jesse Jackson and Sharpton are the worst human beings that keep the issue stirred up. They are not helping anything at all.

Have you read Star Parker's book, "Uncle Sam's Plantation"? Excellent read. She talks about how hard it is to get off the welfare system, as she was in it. She took a job that payed her less than what she could get on welfare, but she was determined to make it.

We need people to feel of value to themselves and Welfare isn't doing that.

I saw, with my own eyes, a black guy in Houston being interviewed after Katrina. He said, "If they don't continue to help us, they will see what crime really is."

What in the world kind of statement is that? Crazy!!!

[Pressing-On]

Well, I'm no prophet, but let me just go on record as saying it...

I am fully convinced:
Obama is too badly damaged now. He will never recover from this.
John McCain will be our next president.

:bouquet :friend

[ReformedDave]

My dear brother....

The Bob Jones incident was particularly offensive to many black voters in this case, and I'll explain why.

Bush and his campaign were acutely aware of black dislinke/distrust of the Republican party. He campaigned as being a "compassionate conservative", "a uniter not a divider", etc. The Republican party was making concerted attempts to reach out to to blacks and Hispanics, constituencies that typically leaned Democratic...

He was warned before the Bob Jones thing not to go, as it would be offensive to many minorities that he'd go to a university that had a bigoted policy on interracial relationships. But he decided to go anyway.

That was seen as just another symptom of the disregard Republicans have shown for African-American concerns. He had a chance to make a statement, and do the right thing... but I guess he didn't want to tick off white South Carolina voters.

Not only did it show poor political judgment, but it served to make many blacks say "see, he's just like all the rest". Blacks then voted 91% Democrat in the 2000 elections -- the highest percentage ever for the Democrat party.



Fine .You may make excuses for Bob Jones University if you like... but most of us see it plainly for what it was. Their policies against blacks and white dating... if it wasnt rooted in bigotry, what was it then? ... rooted in "concern" for those dating?

It's frankly none of their business, and it reeks of prejudice. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.... please don't try to convince me its not really a duck. I was born at night--but not last night.

My late father held this view for many years and after speaking with him at length I sincerely believe it was not one of bigotry. He truly believed, albeit wrongly, that races should not mix. In his mind it was a God-given barrier. He had assistant pastors that were Black and Hispanic and he loved them dearly. He softened his position as he grew older but he did hold it for many years.

[TRFrance]

:bouquet :friend
So do you like McCain, or Obama?
I thought you were an Obama/Democrat supporter.

From that other thread...

i still say this is the Dems election to loose.

I hope it is! It looks that way to me, thus far.

[Pressing-On]

So do you like McCain, or Obama?
I thought you were an Obama/Democrat supporter.

From that other thread...

Didn't I agree that I hope the Democrats lose? I thought I did. :D