Another reason NOT to vote for Obama

[Ferd]

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/14/with-interest-in-08-race-worldwide-obamamania-extends-beyond-us-borders/

[DividedThigh]

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/14/with-interest-in-08-race-worldwide-obamamania-extends-beyond-us-borders/

that tells me i was right from the beginnin, he aint gettin my vote, lol,dt:bliss:bliss

[Ferd]

I vote against anyone the rest of the world likes.

[ChristopherHall]

Yep. We need a President that the world can’t trust and will undermine. God knows we don’t need a President who has the world’s trust and who will be able to generate more global assistance with dealing with Taliban advancements in Afghanistan, international terror, and enforcement of international trade laws that China repeatedly disregards to the detriment of America. lol

[Consapostolic1]

I'm still voting for Obama

[Ferd]

I'm still voting for Obama

I hear the catholics will hear your confession.

[ChTatum]

Hey brother, my NO-OBAMA meter is already off the chart.

But thanks for the reminder!

[ChristopherHall]

I'm still voting for Obama

If you don't mind me asking, why do you plan to vote for Obama?

[Consapostolic1]

It would be interesting to see what he can do for our country

[Ferd]

It would be interesting to see what he can do for our country

would you mind expanding on this?
what are the things you want the next president to do for the country?

[RandyWayne]

It would be interesting to see what he can do for our country

Mmmmm.... What can HE (Obama) do that you cannot do for yourself?

Shouldn't the best thing he (any president) do is to simply get out of the way and allow you to be the best you can be?

[ChristopherHall]

would you mind expanding on this?
what are the things you want the next president to do for the country?

I can think of one thing....eliminate war profiteering.

[ChristopherHall]

I'd say the only thing that attracts me to a Democrat at this point is the glaring failure of the Republicans. It can't get any worse. The Democrats say they can do better...let's let them try. When you're going down fast you have nothing left to loose really.

Neither side is going to do anything about abortion.
Neither side is going to do anything about civil unions.

[ChTatum]

I'd say the only thing that attracts me to a Democrat at this point is the glaring failure of the Republicans. It can't get any worse. The Democrats say they can do better...let's let them try. When you're going down fast you have nothing left to loose really.

Brother, brother, brother, I pray for you. So concerned over what someone makes while electing someone who runs under the banner of pro-abortion and pro same-sex marriages.

18,000 die a year with treatable diseases because they don't have healthcare?

4,000 a day are aborted. You really wish to compare those numbers?

[ChristopherHall]

Brother, brother, brother, I pray for you. So concerned over what someone makes while electing someone who runs under the banner of pro-abortion and pro same-sex marriages.

18,000 die a year with treatable diseases because they don't have healthcare?

4,000 a day are aborted. You really wish to compare those numbers?

Both parties are pro-abortion. Both parties are for civil unions. The only issue is that one party is lying about it and using religion to manipulate good people.

[ChTatum]

Please show me the plank in the republican platform that supports abortion. Also the one on MARRIAGES between same sex.

[ChTatum]

You'll have to prove it to me, brother. I am one of the bitter people in small towns clinging to religion and my guns.

[ChTatum]

Both parties are pro-abortion. Both parties are for civil unions. The only issue is that one party is lying about it and using religion to manipulate good people.

Since you can tell they are lying, care to share something useful, like lottery numbers or the day of the rapture?

:bliss

[ChristopherHall]

Abortion rates are higher the closer you get to poverty level. It's directly attached to economic hardship. Sadly our materialistic culture has convinced poor women that having a child is offers too much hardship. It's sick really. But I look at Belgium and I'm bewildered. In Belgium abortion is perfectly legal...but they have the lowest abortion rate in the world, even lower than countries that have outlawed it or have strict regulations on it. Why is that? That's something that I can't shake. I read an article on how in Belgium citizens have universal health care which means that Belgian women faced with a crisis pregancy have healt insurance. They also have government subsidized day care like France. It appears that more Belgian women choose life...because it's easier to raise a family in their society.

The point is...there may be more than one way to skin a cat. Sure...we want to ban abortion. But criminalization doesn't address the issues women in poverty face. Also if it's criminalized...what's the penalty? No court in the land is going to do anything but slap a woman on the wrist and maybe take a doctor's license at most.

The way I see it, don't promise me to ban abortion....I want someone who can reduce the abortion rate. Here's an interesting tid bit...the abortion rate is lower today than it was back before Roe v. Wade. So frankly we have a lower right right now with it being legal than we had when it was illegal. Counter intuitive? Yep. It's strange really.

I see two things that have to be done to reduce the abortion rate. First, preach the Gospel and affirm the value of human life. Second, address the socio-economic hardships of poor women, namely black women. More abortions are procured by minority women than white women. Why? There are more black women in the socio-economic demographic that tends to feel they have to choose abortion.

When it comes to gays marrying....I hate it as much as you do. But both parties support civil unions and more and more CORPORATIONS are offering "domestic partner benefits". Also liberal churches want to marry them and claim it's an issue of religious freedom. That's a lost cause.

[ChristopherHall]

Please show me the plank in the republican platform that supports abortion. Also the one on MARRIAGES between same sex.

Don't be so simple as to go merely by platform. The CANDIDATES say they're pro-life but nothing ever changes. They always say, "But I respect it as the law of the land."

[ChristopherHall]

You'll have to prove it to me, brother. I am one of the bitter people in small towns clinging to religion and my guns.

LOL

[ChristopherHall]

Since you can tell they are lying, care to share something useful, like lottery numbers or the day of the rapture?

:bliss

Republicans had a solid majority in congress....had a strong white house...and 7 out of 9 justices appointed by Republican Presidents. And...nothing has changed. Guess what...it's not going to happen.

[ChristopherHall]

It amazes me how everyone turns to the RNC because of abortion and gay marriage...but the RNC has done little to NOTHING on these issues. At least those who support the RNC's economics support them for something they actually work to accomplish.

[Rev Dooley]

Yep. We need a President that the world can’t trust and will undermine. God knows we don’t need a President who has the world’s trust and who will be able to generate more global assistance with dealing with Taliban advancements in Afghanistan, international terror, and enforcement of international trade laws that China repeatedly disregards to the detriment of America. lolBoy, can I get a witness to this!!!
This is one funny post if it hadn't seemed so serious.
I am saddened that our youth today think like this. Just because the world trusts this man does not mean that we who must live in the same country must trust him.
He is clearly a political animal who has no real worthwhile track record unless you are gay or some other supposed minority.
Regardless of what we may think of Osama, I mean Obama, if he gets elected, he will certainly support the radical muslims who have supported him so openly. What is scary is that these people want him in. That should tell us Americans who have the right to vote and still have a legal voice in our own country that we should stand up against this vile man.

I make no apologies for my stance.

[ChristopherHall]

The system is so corrupt those who vote for either party are implicant in the destruction of America. The only real answer is to preach THE KINGDOM and make a total break from these parties in the name of all that is Holy. Imagine if the first church would have sided with one Roman political group over another? Or imagine if the Christians began supporting the Zealots, Pharisees, or Sadducees expect these parties to save society? No. Christians made a complete break dwelling under the wicked system without being part of it. More Christians today side with the DNC or the RNC more than G-O-D. Then they let the POLITICS of THIS WORLD divide BROTHERS and SISTERS. America is DOOMED as long as the Church keeps whoring around with worldly political parties like some drunken prostitute.

I'm constantly hearing the "vote for the lesser of two evils" line. What makes us think that we are so married to this corrupt system that we feel we have to vote for ANY evil?

Instead of taking a stand for a political party...why not take a stand for Christ?

[ChristopherHall]

Boy, can I get a witness to this!!!
This is one funny post if it hadn't seemed so serious.
I am saddened that our youth today think like this. Just because the world trusts this man does not mean that we who must live in the same country must trust him.
He is clearly a political animal who has no real worthwhile track record unless you are gay or some other supposed minority.
Regardless of what we may think of Osama, I mean Obama, if he gets elected, he will certainly support the radical muslims who have supported him so openly. What is scary is that these people want him in. That should tell us Americans who have the right to vote and still have a legal voice in our own country that we should stand up against this vile man.

I make no apologies for my stance.

Reverend...can you show me where "radical Muslims" support him? I know of some Palestinian folks who support him. Primarily because they believe that Islamic extremists prey on young impressionable Arab youth indoctrinating them in the ways of Islamic extremism. They pray for an American President that can end the military actions and engage the issues that those living in the Middle East are facing at the negotiation table. The more we unilaterally invade and bomb them, the more the Islamic extremists recruit their youth to be pawns in their bloody war. War begets war....violence begets violence. We need someone with the manhood to do some serious diplomacy.

[ManOfWord]

It amazes me how everyone turns to the RNC because of abortion and gay marriage...but the RNC has done little to NOTHING on these issues. At least those who support the RNC's economics support them for something they actually work to accomplish.

This is precisely why I am a registered Independent. I will not be ____________ (fill in any appropriate negative term you care to) by the RNC any longer!!! Fool me once...........

[ChristopherHall]

This is precisely why I am a registered Independent. I will not be ____________ (fill in any appropriate negative term you care to) by the RNC any longer!!! Fool me once...........

The Bible uses the word "whore" in relation to Mystery Babylon. But we've become more "conservative" than God in our right wing version of political correctness. Even language God uses in the Holy Bible is too much for us to deal with. Several times God uses the term for Israel in the Old Testament. What's happened to us? I know men who won't read the word "a-s-s", instead they say, "donkey", when reading various passages in the Bible. We've really become a real piece of work. What happened to our guts? It's like we're little girls hiking our dresses up at anything that we think is "improper". Give me a break Jake. LOL

Oh well.

So ManOfWord, you going Constitution Party or Democrat?

[Jason Badejo]

"More than ever, it seems, proactive support and interest in the U.S. presidential election is flourishing in the unlikeliest of places."

Yeah, like Gaza, sure I believe he has no muslim ties. wink, wink.

[Jason Badejo]

OBAMA DISECTED


LET ME SEE IF I HAVE THIS STRAIGHT:

HIS FATHER WAS A KENYAN, MOSLEM, BLACK- WE HAVE SEEN PICTURES OF HIS AFRICAN "FAMILY

HIS MOTHER IS A KANSAN, ATHIEST, WHITE-
WHERE ARE THE PICTURES OF HIS KANSAN, WHITE MOTHER AND HIS WHITE GRANDPARENTS WHO RAISED HIM.

HIS FATHER DESERTED HIS MOTHER AND HIM WHEN HE WAS VERY YOUNG AND WENT BACK TO HIS FAMILY IN KENYA

HIS MOTHER MARRIED AN INDONESIAN MOSLEM AND TOOK HIM TO JAKARTA WHERE HE WAS SCHOOLED IN A MOSLEM SCHOOL

HIS MOTHER RETURNED TO HAWAII AND HE WAS RAISED BY HIS WHITE KANSAN GRANDPARENTS

HE LATER WENT TO THE BEST HIGH DOLLAR SCHOOLS, HOW?

HE LIVES IN A $1.4 MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE THAT HE ACQUIRED THROUGH A DEAL WITH A WEALTHY FUND RAISER. HOW?

HE "WORKED" AS A CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST IN CHICAGO- HAS NEVER HELD A PRODUCTIVE JOB. THE PRESIDENCY IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHTS POST
NOR IS IT SUBJECT TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SET ASIDES

HE ENTERED POLITICS AT THE STATE LEVEL AND THEN THE NATIONAL LEVEL WHERE HE HAS MINIMAL EXPERIENCE

HE IS PROUD OF HIS "AFRICAN HERITAGE" BUT IT SEEMS THAT HIS ONLY AFRICAN CONNECTION WAS THAT HIS AFRICAN FATHER GOT A WHITE GIRL PREGNANT AND DESERTED HER. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT SPERM CARRIED A "CULTURAL" GENE. WHERE IS THE PRIDE IN HIS WHITE CULTURE?

HE GOES TO A "AFROCENTRIC" CHURCH THAT HATES WHITES, HATES JEWS, AND BLAMES AMERICA FOR ALL THE WORLDS PERCEIVED FAULTS
AND THEN REPEATEDLY COVERS UP FOR THE PASTOR AND THE CHURCH

HE CLAIMS THAT HE COULD NOT CONFRONT HIS PASTOR BUT HE WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT HE CAN CONFRONT NORTH KOREA AND IRAN, RIGHT!!!

YEAH, I THINK I SEE HOW HE COULD BE A UNITER AND BRING US TOGETHER, I THINK THE HOPE IS THAT HE HOPES NO ONE WILL PUT THE PIECES TOGETHER

(from an email I recieved today)

[Jason Badejo]

The system is so corrupt those who vote for either party are implicant in the destruction of America. The only real answer is to preach THE KINGDOM and make a total break from these parties in the name of all that is Holy. Imagine if the first church would have sided with one Roman political group over another? Or imagine if the Christians began supporting the Zealots, Pharisees, or Sadducees expect these parties to save society? No. Christians made a complete break dwelling under the wicked system without being part of it. More Christians today side with the DNC or the RNC more than G-O-D. Then they let the POLITICS of THIS WORLD divide BROTHERS and SISTERS. America is DOOMED as long as the Church keeps whoring around with worldly political parties like some drunken prostitute.

I'm constantly hearing the "vote for the lesser of two evils" line. What makes us think that we are so married to this corrupt system that we feel we have to vote for ANY evil?

Instead of taking a stand for a political party...why not take a stand for Christ?


well, i would not vote (i'm still considering it) but if christians didn't vote we would basically be casting a vote for obama. Please don't get me wrong, I can't stand McCain, but the fact that Al-Jeezra, the Palestinian Authority, and radical muslims around the world support a so-called "christian" who supposedly shuns the koran and islam is a huge red flag for me. If it was between clinton and mccain, i don't think I could care less. Talk about tweedly dee and tweedly dumb. Ron Paul was the best candidate, he was radical, but at least he was completely upfront and open about his policies. Who doesn't want a president that wants to prevent a national/international ID, abolish the IRS, cause the value of the dollar to go up, instead of down, leave the united nations, etc. Obviously all of things can't happen with one president, and some probably will never happen. But I don't get how someone could go for mccain or obama, or hilary over Paul, I am obviously in the minority.

[ManOfWord]

The Bible uses the word "whore" in relation to Mystery Babylon. But we've become more "conservative" than God in our right wing version of political correctness. Even language God uses in the Holy Bible is too much for us to deal with. Several times God uses the term for Israel in the Old Testament. What's happened to us? I know men who won't read the word "a-s-s", instead they say, "donkey", when reading various passages in the Bible. We've really become a real piece of work. What happened to our guts? It's like we're little girls hiking our dresses up at anything that we think is "improper". Give me a break Jake. LOL

Oh well.

So ManOfWord, you going Constitution Party or Democrat?

Neither. Like I said....Independent!!! I could NEVER stomach the DNC and the RNC........well.....I guess that's why I pastor an independent church as well. I can just get the job done without the politics of denomination! :D

[Fiyahstarter]

It would be interesting to see what he can do for our country

More like what he does TO our country.:runhills

[Brother Price]

Who is the Constitution Party candidate this election?

[Rev Dooley]

Reverend...can you show me where "radical Muslims" support him? I know of some Palestinian folks who support him. Primarily because they believe that Islamic extremists prey on young impressionable Arab youth indoctrinating them in the ways of Islamic extremism. They pray for an American President that can end the military actions and engage the issues that those living in the Middle East are facing at the negotiation table. The more we unilaterally invade and bomb them, the more the Islamic extremists recruit their youth to be pawns in their bloody war. War begets war....violence begets violence. We need someone with the manhood to do some serious diplomacy.I think it is pretty radical when muslims are making calls to americans asking for their support of this man.
The muslim extremists as I recall attacked us at 911. Have you forgotten that already? We retaliated and war began. To say that war begets war is to say that we are wrong to fight back when attacked. I disagree.
The issues in the ME have shifted from what they were before, at least in the public eye.
I can not honestly say that I support it any longer.
I do not believe however that a candidate that is supported there is necessarily good for America. Their whole worldview is 180 out from ours. Surely you agree with that.
Their whole stated purpose in life is to eradicate anyone who opposes Islam. They don't have to be radical to feel this way. I have spoken with many muslims over the years and they are convinced that their way is the only way and all others are infidel, yours included. That should make you pause and reconsider your support of someone who is so anti-american that he won't even wear an american flag during his campaign, especially in light of the fact that he is popular in the ME.
That should throw up warning flags to all of America.

[Nahum]

Obama is a dangerous man.

Very dangerous.

He seems to have no ethical or moral moorings.

His comments last week were beyond acceptable.

[izzyschwartz]

Obama is a dangerous man.

Very dangerous.

He seems to have no ethical or moral moorings.

His comments last week were beyond acceptable.

This is totally true. Politics aside, I cannot fathom anyone posting on this form thinking that this man would be good for America. He does not possess even one redeeming quality.

Nothing he has said or done in his political career is worthy of praise or admiration. Every public comment and action has been self serving and his arrogance is disgusting. His popularity is embarrassing to any truly informed American. I can only hope that defense of him, his actions, or his rhetoric can be attributed to youthful stupidity.

Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and
any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains

[jaxfam6]

You'll have to prove it to me, brother. I am one of the bitter people in small towns clinging to religion and my guns.

I'm not small town but I'm with ya

No way I wanna become a little sheet head.
or in my case a big sheet head

[jaxfam6]

I think my ignorant, small minded, religous right, moral preaching values are gonna start showing soon.

[ChristopherHall]

"More than ever, it seems, proactive support and interest in the U.S. presidential election is flourishing in the unlikeliest of places."

Yeah, like Gaza, sure I believe he has no muslim ties. wink, wink.

Don't you know that we live in a world where American policy affects far more than just America. If a group of foreign individuals feel a Presidential candidate will address some of the issues they face with American foreign policy they will likely support him. This doesn't mean he has Muslim ties. When making accusations....you have to offer proof.

[ChristopherHall]

OBAMA DISECTED


LET ME SEE IF I HAVE THIS STRAIGHT:

HIS FATHER WAS A KENYAN, MOSLEM, BLACK- WE HAVE SEEN PICTURES OF HIS AFRICAN "FAMILY

HIS MOTHER IS A KANSAN, ATHIEST, WHITE-
WHERE ARE THE PICTURES OF HIS KANSAN, WHITE MOTHER AND HIS WHITE GRANDPARENTS WHO RAISED HIM.

HIS FATHER DESERTED HIS MOTHER AND HIM WHEN HE WAS VERY YOUNG AND WENT BACK TO HIS FAMILY IN KENYA

HIS MOTHER MARRIED AN INDONESIAN MOSLEM AND TOOK HIM TO JAKARTA WHERE HE WAS SCHOOLED IN A MOSLEM SCHOOL

HIS MOTHER RETURNED TO HAWAII AND HE WAS RAISED BY HIS WHITE KANSAN GRANDPARENTS

HE LATER WENT TO THE BEST HIGH DOLLAR SCHOOLS, HOW?

HE LIVES IN A $1.4 MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE THAT HE ACQUIRED THROUGH A DEAL WITH A WEALTHY FUND RAISER. HOW?

HE "WORKED" AS A CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST IN CHICAGO- HAS NEVER HELD A PRODUCTIVE JOB. THE PRESIDENCY IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHTS POST
NOR IS IT SUBJECT TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SET ASIDES

HE ENTERED POLITICS AT THE STATE LEVEL AND THEN THE NATIONAL LEVEL WHERE HE HAS MINIMAL EXPERIENCE

HE IS PROUD OF HIS "AFRICAN HERITAGE" BUT IT SEEMS THAT HIS ONLY AFRICAN CONNECTION WAS THAT HIS AFRICAN FATHER GOT A WHITE GIRL PREGNANT AND DESERTED HER. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT SPERM CARRIED A "CULTURAL" GENE. WHERE IS THE PRIDE IN HIS WHITE CULTURE?

HE GOES TO A "AFROCENTRIC" CHURCH THAT HATES WHITES, HATES JEWS, AND BLAMES AMERICA FOR ALL THE WORLDS PERCEIVED FAULTS
AND THEN REPEATEDLY COVERS UP FOR THE PASTOR AND THE CHURCH

HE CLAIMS THAT HE COULD NOT CONFRONT HIS PASTOR BUT HE WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT HE CAN CONFRONT NORTH KOREA AND IRAN, RIGHT!!!

YEAH, I THINK I SEE HOW HE COULD BE A UNITER AND BRING US TOGETHER, I THINK THE HOPE IS THAT HE HOPES NO ONE WILL PUT THE PIECES TOGETHER

(from an email I recieved today)

Yeah, I know a preacher who preach about how Proctor and Gamble were supporting Satanists....he got that in an email too. Look it up on SNOPES or FactCheck.com before ranting that garbage here.

I loose all respect for those who believe email rumors.

[ChristopherHall]

well, i would not vote (i'm still considering it) but if christians didn't vote we would basically be casting a vote for obama. Please don't get me wrong, I can't stand McCain, but the fact that Al-Jeezra, the Palestinian Authority, and radical muslims around the world support a so-called "christian" who supposedly shuns the koran and islam is a huge red flag for me. If it was between clinton and mccain, i don't think I could care less. Talk about tweedly dee and tweedly dumb. Ron Paul was the best candidate, he was radical, but at least he was completely upfront and open about his policies. Who doesn't want a president that wants to prevent a national/international ID, abolish the IRS, cause the value of the dollar to go up, instead of down, leave the united nations, etc. Obviously all of things can't happen with one president, and some probably will never happen. But I don't get how someone could go for mccain or obama, or hilary over Paul, I am obviously in the minority.

I think it’s funny how we feel that every Muslim is a radical Muslim. Radical Muslims don’t like ANY American candidate. We have to understand that the average Muslim isn’t a radical Muslim. They want peace MORE than we do because they know any war will be fought in their back yard. They know that their kids will be killed and recruited by extremists to be suicide bombers. Of course they are going to show support for the peace candidate. But I see why you would hesitate.

Ron Paul was just too conservative for most Americans. I liked him, but he was even a little too conservative for me. Most Americans are just left of center on economics and right of center on values. And neither party represents that. That’s why we have such a divide.

[ChristopherHall]

I think it is pretty radical when muslims are making calls to americans asking for their support of this man.
The muslim extremists as I recall attacked us at 911. Have you forgotten that already? We retaliated and war began. To say that war begets war is to say that we are wrong to fight back when attacked. I disagree.
The issues in the ME have shifted from what they were before, at least in the public eye.
I can not honestly say that I support it any longer.
I do not believe however that a candidate that is supported there is necessarily good for America. Their whole worldview is 180 out from ours. Surely you agree with that.
Their whole stated purpose in life is to eradicate anyone who opposes Islam. They don't have to be radical to feel this way. I have spoken with many muslims over the years and they are convinced that their way is the only way and all others are infidel, yours included. That should make you pause and reconsider your support of someone who is so anti-american that he won't even wear an american flag during his campaign, especially in light of the fact that he is popular in the ME.
That should throw up warning flags to all of America.

Rev. Dooley,

The fact that the Arab world is pulling for Obama does cause me some pause also. But I don’t JUMP to conclusions. My question is why are they supporting him? Sure, my prejudices lead me to think the worst, but it may be that they just don’t want more war. With all the saber rattling about Iran and with tensions involving Israel in the region getting hotter many Muslims are wanting an American President who will bring more people to the table instead of begin dropping more bombs. If I was a Muslim father raising a family in the Middle East, I can assure you I’d be supporting Obama because I wouldn’t want to see the war spread throughout the region. I’d already be afraid that extremists would recruit my kids for their purposes. I don’t believe we can classify all Muslim support as being a negative thing. Think of it this way…if an American President resonates with the Muslim people, we may be able to put significant social pressure on radical leaders. For example in Iran there is a very pro-democracy student movement. They adore Obama. If he can help them feel secure enough to engage in some democratic activism we might be able to effect Iran from the inside without dropping a single bomb.

I firmly believe that war and violence begets war and violence. I also firmly believe that a Christian should by no means involve himself or herself in this world’s wars. If a Christian serves in the military I believe they should only serve in a non-combative capacity, for example as a Medic. I served in the Army as a 19K (M1 Tank Crewman) and when I returned to church I requested that my MOS be changed. After four requests I was finally accepted into 91B10 (Combat Medical Specialist) training at the Army Academy of Health Sciences on Ft. Sam Houston, San Antonio TX. I served the remainder of my time in the military as a combat medical specialist. So yes, I was in the Army, and yes I practice what I preach.

What troubles me about McCain is that he’s starting to saber rattle against Iran. Bro…the powers that be have their eyes in Iran. I’m afraid that if McCain becomes President we’re not only going to be fighting in Iraq for another generation, but we will be engaged in a bloody conflict with Iran. That bothers me bro.

[ChristopherHall]

Obama is a dangerous man.

Very dangerous.

He seems to have no ethical or moral moorings.

His comments last week were beyond acceptable.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say the man has no ethical or moral moorings. I do think he’s been careless with his words of late. And yes, it bothers me too bro. That’s why I’ve shifted from being a solid supporter to being willing to re-evaluate McCain.

[ChristopherHall]

This is totally true. Politics aside, I cannot fathom anyone posting on this form thinking that this man would be good for America. He does not possess even one redeeming quality.

Nothing he has said or done in his political career is worthy of praise or admiration. Every public comment and action has been self serving and his arrogance is disgusting. His popularity is embarrassing to any truly informed American. I can only hope that defense of him, his actions, or his rhetoric can be attributed to youthful stupidity.

Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and
any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains

I think your opinion is rather subjective. Everyone has redeeming qualities. I think his political career has been short but he’s done some good things here and there. But again, there’s a strong argument that his political experience is lacking.

[ChristopherHall]

I’d like to know why I should vote for a Republican President. I’ve voted Republican in nearly every election (both national and local) but two. When it comes to abortion and gay marriage the Republicans have failed to do anything significant and they’ve had the White House, the majority in Congress, and 7 out of 9 SCOTUS judges were appointed by Republicans. So I give them a D- on these issues.

The economy is suffering and the Fed has had to bail out investment banks and mortgage lenders. One in seven Americans state that they are on the verge of loosing their home (my family is one of them). Most Americans are in a state of negative equity where their home isn’t worth what it would take to pay off their home loan. Jobs are stagnant unless you’re in the service sector, “Do you want fries with that?” The dollar is falling in value and gas prices are skyrocketing. I added up how much I’ve lost under this Republican administration and frankly I’m loosing more than if they had raised my taxes!

I work for the city as an account reconciler. I spend most of my days policing companies who are trying to shaft the government by doing shoddy work or not even doing work at all, while enjoying the benefits of government contracts. I speak to these smarmy business owners who try to dodge my calls and when I catch them they lie through their teeth. I also see how federal funding for block grants has been cut to facilitate tax cuts and how these have impacted communities on a local level. For example CDBG funding suffered cuts and with that we’ve not be able to combat urban blight in suppressed neighborhoods. So our neighborhoods are going to pot. I could go on and on here.

I worked as a computer systems help desk technician, but I got laid off. Why? Because the Republican administration started giving out foreign work visas like they were candy and I couldn’t compete with Indian contractors working for TaTa.

Fuel prices are so high and my cost of living is nearly doubled. My wife and I both are feeling like we might have to take on a second job just to pay the bills. I guess we’ll put our son up for an adoption because God knows we can’t parent if we’re working all the freakin’ time.

We lost our traditional health insurance plan and were given an HSA, which is a joke. But, since I am a government employee I got $3000 for my $4000 deductible. In short…my health care costs went up another $1000, unless I want to ration money when we or our son gets sick. I have a good friend who pays nearly $700 a month for health insurance. It’s so bad 50 MILLION are uninsured, 140 MILLION don’t have sufficient health care coverage, and nearly 18,000 die every year from preventable illnesses because they don’t have health insurance. In total…190,018,000 Americans are suffering from our failed health care system. Last year just less than 3,000 Canadians came to the US for elective procedures and services their system filed to provide. Yes…190,018,000 Americans are experiencing what nearly 3,000 Canadians experienced last year in their system. We hear and are horrified by the stories from these 3,000 Canadians…but we don’t seem to care a bit about the 190,018,000 (that’s one hundred and ninety million, eighteen thousand) Americans who are in the very same boat as these 3,000 Canadians in the horror stories we read. For some reason we feel like these three thousand Canadians are more important than nearly two hundred million Americans! I don’t get it.

Why are health care costs so high in America? Here’s why, because we who have health insurance are paying unpaid medical bills of those who don’t. The health care industry is just passing the cost on to us. Why are we paying for them while they pay NOTHING? At least in the Canadian system everyone pays something toward their health insurance.

The Republican Administration was asleep at the helm after nearly a decade of threats from Islamic extremists. We elected them because Clinton was ignoring the problem and we expected them to defend our country. And we still got hit on 9/11. We retaliate by invading Afghanistan to knock out the Taliban who was giving shelter and support to al Queda. But then we are told that Saddam had WMDs and we invaded Iraq preemptively. Now the Taliban is making gains in Afghanistan, Iran is undermining our efforts, our troop levels are low, the cost is stratospheric, and we’re bogged down with no end in sight. Oh…and those WMDs…Iraq didn’t have them. Ooooops. Sorry we’ve killed 80,000 Iraqis over “faulty intelligence”. Oh…and the no bid contracts in the war…can anyone say “war profiteering”?

The world is isolating the US economically and are starting to disregard treaties (after all…that’s what we’ve done). Also human right’s groups have called American to question over torture and the Administration has lied about it and down played it. The government has pushed for warrantless wire taps and with the Patriot Act and collaboration with telecommunications companies has eviscerated our Constitutional rights.

I’m looking at McCain…but these things keep coming up when I consider him. So please tell me again…why should I vote Republican???

I think this election isn’t so much about voting FOR Obama. For many it’s voting against the Republicans.

[DividedThigh]

Obama is a dangerous man.

Very dangerous.

He seems to have no ethical or moral moorings.

His comments last week were beyond acceptable.

have to say that is a clear concise analysis of the sitch, he is not good, and people are blind to it, sad, dt:kickcan

[ChristopherHall]

have to say that is a clear concise analysis of the sitch, he is not good, and people are blind to it, sad, dt:kickcan

I think the majority see the problems with Obama. But in light of what so many hard working Americans are currently going through under a Republican administration, voting for a Republican is out of the question. It's more of a vote against the Republicans than a vote for Obama. Of course partisian ideologues are blind to it.

[DividedThigh]

hey friends all libs can vote for obama if they want, he is the most lib senator on record, so that is a definite, i cant do it, wont do it, if someone better is availabe that does not want to raise taxes and kill children i am with them, say what you want, i vote alone, dt:bliss:kickcan

[BHILL]

I’d like to know why I should vote for a Republican President. I’ve voted Republican in nearly every election (both national and local) but two. When it comes to abortion and gay marriage the Republicans have failed to do anything significant and they’ve had the White House, the majority in Congress, and 7 out of 9 SCOTUS judges were appointed by Republicans. So I give them a D- on these issues.

The economy is suffering and the Fed has had to bail out investment banks and mortgage lenders. One in seven Americans state that they are on the verge of loosing their home (my family is one of them). Most Americans are in a state of negative equity where their home isn’t worth what it would take to pay off their home loan. Jobs are stagnant unless you’re in the service sector, “Do you want fries with that?” The dollar is falling in value and gas prices are skyrocketing. I added up how much I’ve lost under this Republican administration and frankly I’m loosing more than if they had raised my taxes!

I work for the city as an account reconciler. I spend most of my days policing companies who are trying to shaft the government by doing shoddy work or not even doing work at all, while enjoying the benefits of government contracts. I speak to these smarmy business owners who try to dodge my calls and when I catch them they lie through their teeth. I also see how federal funding for block grants has been cut to facilitate tax cuts and how these have impacted communities on a local level. For example CDBG funding suffered cuts and with that we’ve not be able to combat urban blight in suppressed neighborhoods. So our neighborhoods are going to pot. I could go on and on here.

I worked as a computer systems help desk technician, but I got laid off. Why? Because the Republican administration started giving out foreign work visas like they were candy and I couldn’t compete with Indian contractors working for TaTa.

Fuel prices are so high and my cost of living is nearly doubled. My wife and I both are feeling like we might have to take on a second job just to pay the bills. I guess we’ll put our son up for an adoption because God knows we can’t parent if we’re working all the freakin’ time.

We lost our traditional health insurance plan and were given an HSA, which is a joke. But, since I am a government employee I got $3000 for my $4000 deductible. In short…my health care costs went up another $1000, unless I want to ration money when we or our son gets sick. I have a good friend who pays nearly $700 a month for health insurance. It’s so bad 50 MILLION are uninsured, 140 MILLION don’t have sufficient health care coverage, and nearly 18,000 die every year from preventable illnesses because they don’t have health insurance. In total…190,018,000 Americans are suffering from our failed health care system. Last year just less than 3,000 Canadians came to the US for elective procedures and services their system filed to provide. Yes…190,018,000 Americans are experiencing what nearly 3,000 Canadians experienced last year in their system. We hear and are horrified by the stories from these 3,000 Canadians…but we don’t seem to care a bit about the 190,018,000 (that’s one hundred and ninety million, eighteen thousand) Americans who are in the very same boat as these 3,000 Canadians in the horror stories we read. For some reason we feel like these three thousand Canadians are more important than nearly two hundred million Americans! I don’t get it.

Why are health care costs so high in America? Here’s why, because we who have health insurance are paying unpaid medical bills of those who don’t. The health care industry is just passing the cost on to us. Why are we paying for them while they pay NOTHING? At least in the Canadian system everyone pays something toward their health insurance.

The Republican Administration was asleep at the helm after nearly a decade of threats from Islamic extremists. We elected them because Clinton was ignoring the problem and we expected them to defend our country. And we still got hit on 9/11. We retaliate by invading Afghanistan to knock out the Taliban who was giving shelter and support to al Queda. But then we are told that Saddam had WMDs and we invaded Iraq preemptively. Now the Taliban is making gains in Afghanistan, Iran is undermining our efforts, our troop levels are low, the cost is stratospheric, and we’re bogged down with no end in sight. Oh…and those WMDs…Iraq didn’t have them. Ooooops. Sorry we’ve killed 80,000 Iraqis over “faulty intelligence”. Oh…and the no bid contracts in the war…can anyone say “war profiteering”?

The world is isolating the US economically and are starting to disregard treaties (after all…that’s what we’ve done). Also human right’s groups have called American to question over torture and the Administration has lied about it and down played it. The government has pushed for warrantless wire taps and with the Patriot Act and collaboration with telecommunications companies has eviscerated our Constitutional rights.

I’m looking at McCain…but these things keep coming up when I consider him. So please tell me again…why should I vote Republican???

I think this election isn’t so much about voting FOR Obama. For many it’s voting against the Republicans.

The goverment is not a cure all for all the problems.The goverment does not owe us health care,smetimes jobs move out of the country,it's not the goverments fault when that happens,get a new job.Complaining about your HSA(which is the best thing going in the health care industry)doesn't help either.At least you have benefits-I own a business and have to pay my own health ins cost and I don't want the goverment to take over health care. I used to live in Canada-They provide you health care but take more of what you earn and you might die waiting for a surgery-it takes months to get anything done.No wonder many Canadians come to the states for medical care.
Our country is still the best in the world,and I don't think everything is as bad as you say.

[Pressing-On]

I think the majority see the problems with Obama. But in light of what so many hard working Americans are currently going through under a Republican administration, voting for a Republican is out of the question. It's more of a vote against the Republicans than a vote for Obama. Of course partisian ideologues are blind to it.

Voting for Obama is totally out of the question!

Excellent article!



A Living Lie
By Thomas Sowell
Tuesday, April 15, 2008

Like so many others on the left, Obama rejects "stereotypes" when they are stereotypes he doesn't like but blithely throws around his own stereotypes about "a typical white person" or "bitter" gun-toting, religious and racist working class people.

In politics, the clearer a statement is, the more certain it is to be followed by a "clarification," when people react adversely to what was plainly said.

Obama and his supporters were still busy "clarifying" Jeremiah Wright's very plain statements when it suddenly became necessary to "clarify" Senator Obama's own statements in San Francisco.

Obama is also part of a long tradition on the left of being for the working class in the abstract, or as people potentially useful for the purposes of the left, but having disdain or contempt for them as human beings.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/04/15/a_living_lie

[DividedThigh]

Voting for Obama is totally out of the question!

Excellent article!

once again thomas sowell pegs the lib correctly, dt

[Pressing-On]

once again thomas sowell pegs the lib correctly, dt

He is one sharp guy and not just on this topic! :thumbsup

[Titus2Mom]

The system is so corrupt those who vote for either party are implicant in the destruction of America. The only real answer is to preach THE KINGDOM and make a total break from these parties in the name of all that is Holy. Imagine if the first church would have sided with one Roman political group over another? Or imagine if the Christians began supporting the Zealots, Pharisees, or Sadducees expect these parties to save society? No. Christians made a complete break dwelling under the wicked system without being part of it. More Christians today side with the DNC or the RNC more than G-O-D. Then they let the POLITICS of THIS WORLD divide BROTHERS and SISTERS. America is DOOMED as long as the Church keeps whoring around with worldly political parties like some drunken prostitute.

I'm constantly hearing the "vote for the lesser of two evils" line. What makes us think that we are so married to this corrupt system that we feel we have to vote for ANY evil?

Instead of taking a stand for a political party...why not take a stand for Christ?

:iagree :highfive

Well said brother. I will be voting in the primary in my state in a couple weeks. But I know I won't be voting in the presidential election in November. I couldn't put my name down as an endorsement to what the "parties" will offer as our only options. I think this nation (world) is circling the drain in a number of ways, and we should try to reach as many as we can in the meantime.

[BrotherEastman]

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/14/with-interest-in-08-race-worldwide-obamamania-extends-beyond-us-borders/
Why is this another reason? I wasn't going to vote for him anyway. I don't get it, what did I miss?

[ChristopherHall]

The goverment is not a cure all for all the problems.The goverment does not owe us health care,

Do you believe a sick person has an undeniable human right to treatment?

smetimes jobs move out of the country,it's not the goverments fault when that happens,

Actually…when the government removes trade barriers that made it more cost effective to keep jobs here than move overseas it is the government’s fault. When the government offers tax breaks to companies that move jobs overseas it is the government’s fault. When the government allows corporations to move production to nations like China that undermine the value of our dollar and constantly undermines trade law it’s the government’s fault. When the government issues more work visas to foreign contractors than are necessary according to Department of Labor standards it is the government’s fault. I feel you’re terribly ignorant of the details.

Complaining about your HSA(which is the best thing going in the health care industry)doesn't help either.

The HSA is a scheme drafted between the banks and the health care industry. The fees are hilarious. I had actual HEALTH INSURANCE and I never had to fear being unable to see a doctor or take my son to the doctor. I have a good friend of mine who was on an HSA. His daughter got sick and was running a fever. They didn’t have much left in the HSA and had yet to meet their deductible so they didn’t want to waste the money on something unimportant and then have the baby get real sick later. So they called the nurse line. They got advice that it would be ok to keep the girl home and treat with children’s Tylenol, though taking her in would be best. The nurses line said if her fever lasted more than two days they should definitely bring her in. So they treated the little girl at home and everything seemed fine. Well, after the little girl got older and was enrolled in school she tested with hearing damage. They took her to be evaluated and the doctor states that she had hearing damage from a previously untreated ear infection. The doctor stated that the scar tissue looked like it may had been when she was a toddler, and that was about the time they didn’t take her in when she had the fever. My friend is convinced that if he had taken his daughter in to see the doctor when she was sick they would have spotted the ear infection and been able to treat it and prevent any hearing damage. You see…when you force people to budget their medical expenses you have to remember that they are not medical professionals and that they are going to make judgments based on what they “think” in order to save money for more “serious” health issues. If they had REAL insurance, it wouldn’t have been an issue.

I know a couple at church that has an HSA. They are responsible for the first $4000 dollars of their health care costs. Since they have no serious health issues other than some prescription medications the vast majority of their health care costs are on them. He told me, “Chris, we might as well not have health insurance.” You see…he had health insurance at one time. You can’t fool people who KNOW what it was like to have REAL health insurance.

At least you have benefits-

Yep…I’m a government employee on a government funded plan. While I have an HSA I’m more blessed than most…the government front loads my HSA deductible with $3000 each year! We’ve barely used it this year and next year we’ll get another $3000. That will completely cover my deductible leaving us $2000 to play with. We were thinking about taking out a little money out of the HSA for Christmas. LOL

I own a business and have to pay my own health ins cost and I don't want the goverment to take over health care. I used to live in Canada-They provide you health care but take more of what you earn and you might die waiting for a surgery-it takes months to get anything done.No wonder many Canadians come to the states for medical care.
Our country is still the best in the world,and I don't think everything is as bad as you say.

I go to Canada every year. We have family in Ontario and the family cottage is on Charleston Lake in Outlet. No one I know personally has had any problems with the Canadian system. However, I have heard some of the stories about folks who fell through the cracks. I believe the number of Canadians seeking health care in the US for elective or uncovered procedures was fewer than 3,000. I hear about these folks like it’s a MAJOR tragedy. If that’s a major tragedy, certainly the 50 MILLION Americans who don’t have any insurance, the 140 MILLION who are underinsured, and the 18 THOUSAND Americans who die every year from treatable conditions because they can’t get coverage for treatments should be a MAJOR concern for us. What makes the nearly 3,000 Canadians more valuable than 190,018,000 American’s who can’t get or don’t have adequate coverage? Dude…we care so much for the unborn…but once they’re born we don’t care one bit if their family doesn’t have adequate health insurance. I don’t get that. A consistent life ethic would demand the highest ethical value of human life from womb to tomb.

I was looking at Canadian business websites a while back and there were articles about business in Canada. According to this Canadian article, Canadian businesses pay less in negotiated premiums and taxation to sustain health care than American businesses do with ever rising negotiated and unsubsidized premiums. It’s kind of like a home budget. The health insurance I had would have cost me nearly $400 a month on the private market. But if I were in Canada my negotiated premium might be about $80 or $90 and the extra taxes paid might be around an extra $100 or $110. When it all comes down to it I would be paying only $190 or $200 a month in Canada for insurance that costs me $400 a month here. When businesses get to the bottom line they save money by allowing the government to contribute to health insurance because the government negotiates lower premiums and regional group rates. The article I read was talking about how Canadian businesses are bracing themselves for the boom in American business if the United States takes up universal health insurance. Once business is unshackled with carrying the bulk of health insurance coverage they will experience far more market flexibility and so will employees.

If you lived and owned a business in Canada, maybe you can offer me your perspective.

But for the record, I don't think America will ever have a system like Canada's. I believe that as more and more Americans find that they can't afford health insurance we will adopt a universal health insurance program similar to that found in France or Germany.

[BrotherEastman]

I vote against anyone the rest of the world likes.
Ohhhhh, now I get it. LOL!

[izzyschwartz]

I think your opinion is rather subjective. Everyone has redeeming qualities. I think his political career has been short but he’s done some good things here and there. But again, there’s a strong argument that his political experience is lacking.

Redeeming qualities? You are right, he did wear a nice pair of shoes on in one picture I saw of him. Subjective?-no my opinion is based upon the facts of his political record. What has he done? Here and there denotes that you have at least 2 good things... please name them.

[BrotherEastman]

This is what Obama should say if he ever becomes Pres:
America needs a President like this Prime Minister John Howard - Australia Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians'. 'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'. 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!' 'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian,right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.' 'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.' 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.' Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

I love it!

[DividedThigh]

This is what Obama should say if he ever becomes Pres:
America needs a President like this Prime Minister John Howard - Australia Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians'. 'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'. 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!' 'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian,right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.' 'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.' 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.' Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

I love it!
does he have u. s. political aspirations, get my vote, lol, go john howard, lol,dt

[Ferd]

Can we get John Howard to run for President in America too? he can run both countries.

[Ferd]

does he have u. s. political aspirations, get my vote, lol, go john howard, lol,dt

LOL! we posted at the same time!

[BrotherEastman]

does he have u. s. political aspirations, get my vote, lol, go john howard, lol,dt
I only wish we could find someone like this, 300,000,000 of us walking around scared because we might offend someone.

[DividedThigh]

good ideas, good brothers, good company, go boy, lol,dt:bliss

[BrotherEastman]

Can we get John Howard to run for President in America too? he can run both countries.
Yeah, I know right?

[DividedThigh]

obama, oschmama aint gettin my vote no matter what ted kennedy says, lol,dt:bliss:bliss:bliss:party

[Pressing-On]

This is what Obama should say if he ever becomes Pres:
America needs a President like this Prime Minister John Howard - Australia Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians'. 'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'. 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!' 'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian,right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.' 'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.' 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.' Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

I love it!

I'm moving to Australia. I might run into Quigley. :ursofunny

[BHILL]

Do you believe a sick person has an undeniable human right to treatment?

ally…when the government removes trade barriers that made it more cost effective to keep jobs here than move overseas it is the government’s fault. When the government offers tax breaks to companies that move jobs overseas it is the government’s fault. When the government allows corporations to move production to nations like China that undermine the value of our dollar and constantly undermines trade law it’s the government’s fault. When the government issues more work visas to foreign contractors than are necessary according to Department of Labor standards it is the government’s fault. I feel you’re terribly ignorant of the details.



The HSA is a scheme drafted between the banks and the health care industry. The fees are hilarious. I had actual HEALTH INSURANCE and I never had to fear being unable to see a doctor or take my son to the doctor. I have a good friend of mine who was on an HSA. His daughter got sick and was running a fever. They didn’t have much left in the HSA and had yet to meet their deductible so they didn’t want to waste the money on something unimportant and then have the baby get real sick later. So they called the nurse line. They got advice that it would be ok to keep the girl home and treat with children’s Tylenol, though taking her in would be best. The nurses line said if her fever lasted more than two days they should definitely bring her in. So they treated the little girl at home and everything seemed fine. Well, after the little girl got older and was enrolled in school she tested with hearing damage. They took her to be evaluated and the doctor states that she had hearing damage from a previously untreated ear infection. The doctor stated that the scar tissue looked like it may had been when she was a toddler, and that was about the time they didn’t take her in when she had the fever. My friend is convinced that if he had taken his daughter in to see the doctor when she was sick they would have spotted the ear infection and been able to treat it and prevent any hearing damage. You see…when you force people to budget their medical expenses you have to remember that they are not medical professionals and that they are going to make judgments based on what they “think” in order to save money for more “serious” health issues. If they had REAL insurance, it wouldn’t have been an issue.

I know a couple at church that has an HSA. They are responsible for the first $4000 dollars of their health care costs. Since they have no serious health issues other than some prescription medications the vast majority of their health care costs are on them. He told me, “Chris, we might as well not have health insurance.” You see…he had health insurance at one time. You can’t fool people who KNOW what it was like to have REAL health insurance.



Yep…I’m a government employee on a government funded plan. While I have an HSA I’m more blessed than most…the government front loads my HSA deductible with $3000 each year! We’ve barely used it this year and next year we’ll get another $3000. That will completely cover my deductible leaving us $2000 to play with. We were thinking about taking out a little money out of the HSA for Christmas. LOL



I go to Canada every year. We have family in Ontario and the family cottage is on Charleston Lake in Outlet. No one I know personally has had any problems with the Canadian system. However, I have heard some of the stories about folks who fell through the cracks. I believe the number of Canadians seeking health care in the US for elective or uncovered procedures was fewer than 3,000. I hear about these folks like it’s a MAJOR tragedy. If that’s a major tragedy, certainly the 50 MILLION Americans who don’t have any insurance, the 140 MILLION who are underinsured, and the 18 THOUSAND Americans who die every year from treatable conditions because they can’t get coverage for treatments should be a MAJOR concern for us. What makes the nearly 3,000 Canadians more valuable than 190,018,000 American’s who can’t get or don’t have adequate coverage? Dude…we care so much for the unborn…but once they’re born we don’t care one bit if their family doesn’t have adequate health insurance. I don’t get that. A consistent life ethic would demand the highest ethical value of human life from womb to tomb.

I was looking at Canadian business websites a while back and there were articles about business in Canada. According to this Canadian article, Canadian businesses pay less in negotiated premiums and taxation to sustain health care than American businesses do with ever rising negotiated and unsubsidized premiums. It’s kind of like a home budget. The health insurance I had would have cost me nearly $400 a month on the private market. But if I were in Canada my negotiated premium might be about $80 or $90 and the extra taxes paid might be around an extra $100 or $110. When it all comes down to it I would be paying only $190 or $200 a month in Canada for insurance that costs me $400 a month here. When businesses get to the bottom line they save money by allowing the government to contribute to health insurance because the government negotiates lower premiums and regional group rates. The article I read was talking about how Canadian businesses are bracing themselves for the boom in American business if the United States takes up universal health insurance. Once business is unshackled with carrying the bulk of health insurance coverage they will experience far more market flexibility and so will employees.

If you lived and owned a business in Canada, maybe you can offer me your perspective.

But for the record, I don't think America will ever have a system like Canada's. I believe that as more and more Americans find that they can't afford health insurance we will adopt a universal health insurance program similar to that found in France or Germany.

You sound like you would be more comfortable in a socialist country where they take half of your income and in return give you everything you need.The goverments job is to protect us and to give us freedom to make choices.I don't want the goverment involved in every part of my life

[Pressing-On]

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Love this by Kathleen Parker: :ursofunny

Those words now cling to Obama like Styrofoam packing peanuts.

:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

[HeavenlyOne]

Maybe this should be on another thread, but it anyone besides me appalled at the actions of Jimmy Carter and his trip to the ME?

[ChristopherHall]

You sound like you would be more comfortable in a socialist country where they take half of your income and in return give you everything you need. The government’s job is to protect us and to give us freedom to make choices. I don't want the government involved in every part of my life.

Actually I believe in a mixed economy. I think some things are best socialized while others are not. For example health insurance. Most of the Western World has already realized that while the socialized insurance system has issues and definitely needs some adjustments, at least you can be sure of two things…

- The vast majority pays something into the system.
- The vast majority are covered.

Currently our premiums are sky high because we’re paying for the loss the industry is taking from the uninsured that can’t or won’t pay their bills. Why should someone who doesn’t have insurance be able to go to a hospital, get care, not pay anything and then you and me are responsible for inflated premiums to pay for their bill? Most of those who are uninsured are “working poor” who work but have no health insurance or inadequate coverage. At least in Canada these people would be paying SOMETHING into the system and we wouldn’t be fitting their bill in higher premiums. What’s interesting is that the current private system is doing exactly what you don’t want the government to do…make you pay for others. The only way to maintain a private system without our premiums being inflated to pay for the uninsured is if we refused treatment to individuals who didn’t have adequate insurance.

Here’s a great website for information:

http://republicansforsinglepayer.com/

Who do you call if you need the police? Who do you call if you’re house is on fire?
Who do you call to defend the boarder? Government has a role to play in all our lives.

[ChristopherHall]

Maybe this should be on another thread, but it anyone besides me appalled at the actions of Jimmy Carter and his trip to the ME?

Carter’s crazy.

From my understanding Carter wants to negotiate the release of a prisoner. The only issue is those who have him are classified as a terrorist group. The issue gets more complex when we realize that this elements of this terrorist group were legitimately elected to positions of political power making them political bodies. So the question is…do we treat these folks like terrorists….or do we treat these folks like political officials since they were legitimately elected to official offices?

To resolve the issue, I think they should require former Presidents to receive Congressional permission to meet with leaders abroad. Those who meet with foreign leaders against the will of Congress should face charges. That would resolve this.

[DividedThigh]

Maybe this should be on another thread, but it anyone besides me appalled at the actions of Jimmy Carter and his trip to the ME?

jimma carta is a complete boob, and is just being used by his so called friends the terrorist, what a moron, there you go HO, my opinion, lol,dt:bliss

[HeavenlyOne]

Seems to me that his actions are just under the line of committing treason. I mean, embracing our enemies? Putting flowers on the grave of a terrorist? Is this an action he'd do if Osama were to meet with him?

[ChristopherHall]

Seems to me that his actions are just under the line of committing treason. I mean, embracing our enemies? Putting flowers on the grave of a terrorist? Is this an action he'd do if Osama were to meet with him?

While I don't think it's time to deal with them...eventually someone is going to have to site down and talk with these people. And again...Carter is going to try to secure the release of a prisoner. You can't do that if you walk over spitting at them and yelling slander like a drunken hillbilly. LOL

Carter shouldn't go...but someone, some day, will have to sit down with the enemy and try to work things out.

[HeavenlyOne]

While I don't think it's time to deal with them...eventually someone is going to have to site down and talk with these people. And again...Carter is going to try to secure the release of a prisoner. You can't do that if you walk over spitting at them and yelling slander like a drunken hillbilly. LOL

Carter shouldn't go...but someone, some day, will have to sit down with the enemy and try to work things out.

Chris, that's not what he's doing. Not at all. His actions are making Americans look like they are condoning terrorists by embracing them and putting flowers on Arafat's grave. And he's not on any official business. His actions toward the terrorists won't make any bit of difference to them than if you or I went and did the same thing. It only makes America look foolish.

We have TRIED sitting down and dealing with them, but that's not how they operate. THEY are the ones who don't want to sit down and deal with us, not the other way around. I'm puzzled by your comments suggesting that this hasn't been tried already.

[Ferd]

I believe a free market economy is the best way to prosperity.

[chosenbyone]

:announce Ferd, CONGRATULATIONS! You have convinced me to not vote for Obama!

In fact, I won't be participating in this year's Presidential election.

God Bless America... :fireworks

[ChristopherHall]

I believe a free market economy is the best way to prosperity.

I see "Free Market Economy" and "Communism" the same way...the both sound good on paper but don't work in practice. Those who are dogmatic purists don't see this, but hey, that's the way it's always been. So I prefer "Fair Trade" over "Free Trade" and a "Mixed Economy". Also I see things in a state of flux. There are times in a mixed economy to lighten up on regulation and lean toward a more open market...then there are times to tighten the belt so to speak.

[DividedThigh]

:announce Ferd, CONGRATULATIONS! You have convinced me to not vote for Obama!

In fact, I won't be participating in this year's Presidential election.

God Bless America... :fireworks

while i applaud your conviction in not voting for the number one lib in the senate chosen, i wish you well, dt

[ChristopherHall]

Chris, that's not what he's doing. Not at all. His actions are making Americans look like they are condoning terrorists by embracing them and putting flowers on Arafat's grave. And he's not on any official business. His actions toward the terrorists won't make any bit of difference to them than if you or I went and did the same thing. It only makes America look foolish.

We have TRIED sitting down and dealing with them, but that's not how they operate. THEY are the ones who don't want to sit down and deal with us, not the other way around. I'm puzzled by your comments suggesting that this hasn't been tried already.

Heavenly, you know I love ya, but I think you’re being a bit irrational. Carter is trying to negotiate the release of an Israeli soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit. There has been fierce confrontations since Hamas captured him. Carter didn’t just up and decide to go, he’s been approached by Israelis desiring an end to the current confrontation and several Palestinian groups. Hamas isn’t going away. They are growing in power and influence. Eventually we will have to talk with them and try to find a way to reduce tensions before things go so crazy and tens of thousands, if not MILLIONS, of innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians are killed in the crossfire. If these soldiers were fighting out in a desert all by themselves bombing and shooting one another…I’d say let them all kill each other and whoever’s left standing wins. But they are bombing in urban areas. Both sides have bombed areas where civilians are being killed and injured. While we have the constituents of both sides screaming for victory over the other…we have kids with their arms blown off, mothers holding the mangled remains of their children, and fathers desperately looking for their families under the rubble of their homes on both sides. Who’s speaking for them? Who’s their advocate? The Israelis and the Palestinian authorities hate each other so much and have so much bad blood between them; I don’t believe it’s possible for them to see straight enough to negotiate any kind of lasting cease fire. A third party who has the political, military, and economy power to strong arm each side has to sit them down and tell them both how they are going to learn to live together and what will be the consequences if they don’t. Yes, we’ve tried to sit down and talk with them and talks failed. But the reality is that one can NEVER give up trying to do the right thing.

You had said that they don’t want to sit down with us? Can you give us an example of what you’re talking about? The Hamas and various Palestinian groups have requested to sit down with the US…but because Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization the United States has a policy of no talks with anyone in Hamas or groups directly associated with them. Like I said…if only soldiers were dying, I’d say sure thing, let them keep fighting. Let the showdown begin. But there are too many innocent lives standing between these warring parties. And Hamas isn’t going away; they’re growing in political clout.

Sis…we’ve engaged the Palestinians in negotiations…but we’ve done very little in the way of talking with Hamas because it’s listed as a terrorist group. What’s interesting is when a deal is cut between Israel and the Palestinians guess who starts shooting? Hamas. The Palestinian Authority doesn’t have the political clout to control Hamas. Think of the Palestinian Authority as the more moderate side (remember they used to be the PLO and listed as a terrorist group, talking with them helped move them to more diplomatic action) and Hamas as their “right wing religious extremists”. The Palestinian authority needs help with getting Hamas on board with their leadership over the Palestinians and then get Hamas support to talks with Israel (who they don’t even acknowledge as a legitimate state since the UN created the modern state of Israel). There needs to be a third party with the guts to keep trying to bring these wackos to the table. Also someone needs to be a voice for those civilians being hurt. If a third party won’t stand up for the civilians guess what will happen…Hamas will stand up for the Palestinian civilians that are hurt and claim they are being victimized by Israeli forces. This will help Hamas to continue becoming more and more popular among the people. It’s a first class royal mess.

So now that I’ve laid the foundation of why I believe talks are necessary, I have to also express that I feel that talking with them at this time may not be wise. We first need to get more people on board with the idea to give any negotiations legitimacy. So in the end Carter will look stupid…unless he can secure the release of this Israeli soldier, the release of Palestinian soldiers and get this squabble behind them.

But I’ve got to hand it to Carter. While I don’t think we’re ready to begin any kind of talks or negotiations, he doesn’t care if he’s popular for doing this or not.

[DividedThigh]

in my humble opinion we never had any business talking to that terrorist arafat, and should not talk to hamas either, jimma is a boob, and should be institutionalized for our own protection, lol,dt

[ChristopherHall]

I still plan on voting. I'll have to hear Obama and McCain side by side. Of course Obama looks worse than McCain right now...McCain's not even really being confronted. Obama's fighting attacks from Hillary and McCain. When he wins the nomination...I predict he'll knock McCain silly when it comes to policy, vision, and sincerety. McCain's only hope is that issues like these mistatements and spin jobs on who Obama knows will gain him the votes of people who think Bush III would be a good idea.

If McCain's policies are solid and sound compared to Obama's, he can win me. But we'll have to see.

[ChristopherHall]

Most don't realize that the soldier's parents, Noam Shalit and his wife, Aviva, have been begging Carter to secure their son's release for some time now. I think it's interesting. We're seeing a man with his hands open, approaching a vicious enemy, trying to be a voice for parents who want their son's release. Meanwhile the world jeers curses at him.

Dude...Carter's either a nutcase or a saint.

If it were my son, I'll be honest, I'd want Carter to secure his release.

[DividedThigh]

yeah carter has done so much for us, like the nuclear weapons deal with north korea yeah that worked out well, the isrealis should tell carter to go home, and he should be banned from traveling abroad without the state depts, permission, he is a disgrace, same as when he was president, and i do remember that, scary, dt

[ChristopherHall]

yeah carter has done so much for us, like the nuclear weapons deal with north korea yeah that worked out well, the Isrealis should tell carter to go home, and he should be banned from traveling abroad without the state depts, permission, he is a disgrace, same as when he was president, and i do remember that, scary, dt

What kind of clout do ex-presidents have anyway? Why were they ever allowed to travel and negotiate with anyone? One would think it would take a sitting President.

I have a question about the nuclear deal with North Korea. The deal Carter helped broker with N. Korea, who’s at fault for it failing….Carter…or N. Korea?

[DividedThigh]

well the truth is both, the nk s for never intending to keep it in the first place and carter for trusting them and clinton for letting it happen on his watch, along with madeline halfwit, lol,dt

[ChristopherHall]

well the truth is both, the nk s for never intending to keep it in the first place and carter for trusting them and clinton for letting it happen on his watch, along with madeline halfwit, lol,dt

Let assume Carter didn't go to NK to try to negotiate a deal. Would things be significantly better?

Carter's failed attempts at negotiating with the NK does show the world that they are a rogue nation. Any use of force against NK will be more easily justified seeing that they lied and didn't stick to their end of the bargain in relation to nuclear weapons. So the negotiations failed...but politically it isolates them more and demonstrates to the world that they cannot be trusted. So not all was lost.

[DividedThigh]

the mess in korea and the concessions made by the clinton admin are just that a mess, made it worse, you can talk all you want with this liberal jargon, lets understand them, we dont know what there intents are, etc, bottom line we know from there past behavior they are a rogue nation, carter is a nut, my opinion, and i am still not voting for any presidential candidate that wants to raise my taxes and wont protect unborn innocents, bye, dt:kickcan

[BHILL]

I see "Free Market Economy" and "Communism" the same way...the both sound good on paper but don't work in practice. Those who are dogmatic purists don't see this, but hey, that's the way it's always been. So I prefer "Fair Trade" over "Free Trade" and a "Mixed Economy". Also I see things in a state of flux. There are times in a mixed economy to lighten up on regulation and lean toward a more open market...then there are times to tighten the belt so to speak.

I can't believe this.America has always been a free market economy that's why we have the greatest nation in the world and the best economy.When the goverment puts retrictions on things is when they mess up everything.You need to listen to Limbaugh or Sean Hannity,somebody is influencing you in the wrong way.

[ChristopherHall]

the mess in korea and the concessions made by the clinton admin are just that a mess, made it worse, you can talk all you want with this liberal jargon, lets understand them, we dont know what there intents are, etc, bottom line we know from there past behavior they are a rogue nation, carter is a nut, my opinion, and i am still not voting for any presidential candidate that wants to raise my taxes and wont protect unborn innocents, bye, dt:kickcan

I don’t know why you assume I think we should get to know and understand N. Korea. We’ve known them quite well and have already been at war with them. I’m only saying that the failure of the NK negotiations prove that the United States tried to lead the way with regards to arms reduction in the region. NK’s actions prove to the world that it’s not us perpetuating this…it’s them. Also if you look increased sanctions were issued against NK from around the world. Politically we walked away with our head up. We tried. They lied.

Though the deal was obviously broken by the NKs did it avert a military confrontation?

Your taxes, your taxes. LOL

Healthcare is a big deal in this election. Here’s the difference between you and me. You don’t want the government raising your taxes and negotiating lower premiums to ultimately reduce your overall spending with regards to health insurance. The average American family could end up saving $200 a month with some of the ideas the Democrats favor. You’d rather pay at least twice as much for a private insurance system that leaves nearly 50% of Americans underinsured? Hey…if they pass the Democratic plan and prices fall and premiums are negotiated and you start saving money each month…feel free to mail it to my family. LOL

When it comes to abortion….neither party can do anything about it. No Supreme Court is going to criminalize women or doctors who procure or perform abortions. What do the courts do with violators? Arrest them? Execute them? Bro…here’s a dose of painful reality, legal abortion’s here and it’s not going anywhere. The position of our nation has become choice and that’s never going to change regardless as to who’s President. Oh, Republicans will use it to manipulate our religious convictions to get us clapping like seals and barking their praises for the election…but the Republicans aren’t going to do a thing about it. So we have to understand that we are living in a pro-choice nation, in fact, a pro-choice world. It seems like God has permitted governments to pass the moral choice of the matter down to the individual. Why? In a pro-choice world there’s only one thing that will reduce abortion, preaching the gospel. The gospel is all about choices. By preaching the gospel we shape and influence people’s choices. But sadly, even with us preaching the gospel many will still choose abortion.

Here’s something, I think Satan loves abortion politics. Christians spend more time and money trying to end abortion politically than we do preaching the gospel. Abortion politics becomes a distraction. It also polarizes us, thereby keeping us from addressing problems that we in fact have the power to change. This world is not our home. This world’s ways have never and will never align with God’s ways this side of Christ’s return.

Please note: America’s abortion rate is still rather high for most Western countries (please note America doesn’t provide the same social infrastructure as most Western Countries). But even with the abortion rate as high as it is, the abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies is still lower today (with abortion legal) than it was in 1972 (with abortion illegal). So laws don’t affect abortion rates. You can ban it two or three times in a row, yep, triple ban it…but the abortion rate will most likely not change one bit. You have to address the issues women who are choosing abortion face. Guess what…most women who procure abortion live near or below the poverty level. Most women who procure abortion…don’t have health insurance. Most women who procure abortion don’t make a living wage. Most are minorities. Abortion is a moral abomination that is married to poverty. Belgium has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. They’ve addressed the issues poor women face. Issues like health insurance, day care costs, and living wages. It all comes down to this…if it will cost us in taxes to fund social programs to help reduce the abortion rates…many who claim to be “pro-life” don’t care how many babies get aborted. They’d rather save their precious money. They ease their conscience by re-assuring themselves that they fought to pass a “law”. Even if we banned abortion today, knowing what I know, we’d still need the social infrastructure to reduce the abortion rate among poor women. Eventually we’ll have to address the issues of unwed mothers, unplanned pregnancies, the lack of health insurance, mother’s who are “working poor” being unable to afford day care, and wages.

I know a guy who works for the city. The man is an awesome mechanical maintenance technician. We were talking about universal health insurance yesterday. In the conversation we talked about how if they passed a universal health insurance program the city would drop the current plan we’re on. He said, “I know this much. I wouldn’t work for the city.” I said, “Really? You like our plan that much?” He said laughing, “No. I’d leave because with universal health insurance I’d go into business for myself. I only keep this job because I need the benefits and couldn’t afford health insurance if I went into business for myself right now.” That’s something else to consider. With universal health insurance how many “wage slaves” would choose to become self employed?

[DividedThigh]

chris save your tirades for someone who cares, i meant what i said, and your comment about my taxes isnt funny, yeah i pay taxes lots of them to much, taxation is punitive in my case, vote for whoever you want, once again people cant talk to you without you wanting a govt handout, i dont want any, just dont take what i work for, dt

[BrotherEastman]

I don’t know why you assume I think we should get to know and understand N. Korea. We’ve known them quite well and have already been at war with them. I’m only saying that the failure of the NK negotiations prove that the United States tried to lead the way with regards to arms reduction in the region. NK’s actions prove to the world that it’s not us perpetuating this…it’s them. Also if you look increased sanctions were issued against NK from around the world. Politically we walked away with our head up. We tried. They lied.

Though the deal was obviously broken by the NKs did it avert a military confrontation?

Your taxes, your taxes. LOL

Healthcare is a big deal in this election. Here’s the difference between you and me. You don’t want the government raising your taxes and negotiating lower premiums to ultimately reduce your overall spending with regards to health insurance. The average American family could end up saving $200 a month with some of the ideas the Democrats favor. You’d rather pay at least twice as much for a private insurance system that leaves nearly 50% of Americans underinsured? Hey…if they pass the Democratic plan and prices fall and premiums are negotiated and you start saving money each month…feel free to mail it to my family. LOL

When it comes to abortion….neither party can do anything about it. No Supreme Court is going to criminalize women or doctors who procure or perform abortions. What do the courts do with violators? Arrest them? Execute them? Bro…here’s a dose of painful reality, legal abortion’s here and it’s not going anywhere. The position of our nation has become choice and that’s never going to change regardless as to who’s President. Oh, Republicans will use it to manipulate our religious convictions to get us clapping like seals and barking their praises for the election…but the Republicans aren’t going to do a thing about it. So we have to understand that we are living in a pro-choice nation, in fact, a pro-choice world. It seems like God has permitted governments to pass the moral choice of the matter down to the individual. Why? In a pro-choice world there’s only one thing that will reduce abortion, preaching the gospel. The gospel is all about choices. By preaching the gospel we shape and influence people’s choices. But sadly, even with us preaching the gospel many will still choose abortion.

Here’s something, I think Satan loves abortion politics. Christians spend more time and money trying to end abortion politically than we do preaching the gospel. Abortion politics becomes a distraction. It also polarizes us, thereby keeping us from addressing problems that we in fact have the power to change. This world is not our home. This world’s ways have never and will never align with God’s ways this side of Christ’s return.

Please note: America’s abortion rate is still rather high for most Western countries (please note America doesn’t provide the same social infrastructure as most Western Countries). But even with the abortion rate as high as it is, the abortion rate per every 1000 pregnancies is still lower today (with abortion legal) than it was in 1972 (with abortion illegal). So laws don’t affect abortion rates. You can ban it two or three times in a row, yep, triple ban it…but the abortion rate will most likely not change one bit. You have to address the issues women who are choosing abortion face. Guess what…most women who procure abortion live near or below the poverty level. Most women who procure abortion…don’t have health insurance. Most women who procure abortion don’t make a living wage. Most are minorities. Abortion is a moral abomination that is married to poverty. Belgium has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. They’ve addressed the issues poor women face. Issues like health insurance, day care costs, and living wages. It all comes down to this…if it will cost us in taxes to fund social programs to help reduce the abortion rates…many who claim to be “pro-life” don’t care how many babies get aborted. They’d rather save their precious money. They ease their conscience by re-assuring themselves that they fought to pass a “law”. Even if we banned abortion today, knowing what I know, we’d still need the social infrastructure to reduce the abortion rate among poor women. Eventually we’ll have to address the issues of unwed mothers, unplanned pregnancies, the lack of health insurance, mother’s who are “working poor” being unable to afford day care, and wages.

I know a guy who works for the city. The man is an awesome mechanical maintenance technician. We were talking about universal health insurance yesterday. In the conversation we talked about how if they passed a universal health insurance program the city would drop the current plan we’re on. He said, “I know this much. I wouldn’t work for the city.” I said, “Really? You like our plan that much?” He said laughing, “No. I’d leave because with universal health insurance I’d go into business for myself. I only keep this job because I need the benefits and couldn’t afford health insurance if I went into business for myself right now.” That’s something else to consider. With universal health insurance how many “wage slaves” would choose to become self employed?
Hey Chris, why don't you go write a book?

[ChristopherHall]

I can't believe this.America has always been a free market economy that's why we have the greatest nation in the world and the best economy.When the goverment puts retrictions on things is when they mess up everything.You need to listen to Limbaugh or Sean Hannity,somebody is influencing you in the wrong way.

Instead of reading rightwing propaganda they should read a bit about America’s real history. For example, in a “free market economy” there are few restrictions on corporations, business, or trade. Our founding fathers placed STRONG restrictions on corporations in America. Here’s an example of some of the laws restricting corporations found throughout the states prior to the late 1800’s:

* Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.
* Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.
* Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.
* Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.
* Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.
* Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.

Laws like these were to restrain corporate power in the United States.

When it comes to taxation our nation originally funded the government with taxes on corporations, tariffs, and excise taxes on trade (especially in international trade). They didn’t have an income tax on individuals, taxes were levied on…business and trade.

As corporations began to grow in political power rulings and laws favoring corporate personhood began to be seen across the US. Many began to fear corporate power. Abraham Lincoln once said:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)
Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)

And that is what we are suffering from this very moment!

Please note, there used to be banking regulations restricting the kind of lending that has created the current lending crisis that is undermining the economy and property values from coast to coast. Lobbyists working for the lending industry fought for deregulation so they could lend to a broader base of customers. Had we maintained the government regulations we had…this wouldn’t be happening.

As for having the best nation and economy…best nation of people, yes…best economy, no. The dollar is down below the socialist Euro and Canadian loony. Some on the international scene aren't even accepting American currency right now.

[ChristopherHall]

Hey Chris, why don't you go write a book?

Because most of the people who would need to read it don't have the attention span to read an internet forum post less than 10,000 characters long. ;)

LOL

[Ferd]

Its posts like this that reminds me that many conservatives are glaringly ignorant of our history and how our nation works. Instead of reading rightwing propaganda they should read a bit about America’s real history. For example, in a “free market economy” there are few restrictions on corporations, business, or trade. Our founding fathers placed STRONG restrictions on corporations in America. Here’s an example of some of the laws restricting corporations found throughout the states prior to the late 1800’s:

* Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.
* Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.
* Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.
* Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.
* Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.
* Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.

Laws like these were to restrain corporate power in the United States.

When it comes to taxation our nation originally funded the government with taxes on corporations, tariffs, and excise taxes on trade (especially in international trade). They didn’t have an income tax on individuals, taxes were levied on…business and trade.

As corporations began to grow in political power rulings and laws favoring corporate personhood began to be seen across the US. Many began to fear corporate power. Abraham Lincoln once said:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)
Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY)

And that is what we are suffering from this very moment!

Please note, there used to be banking regulations restricting the kind of lending that has created the current lending crisis that is undermining the economy and property values from coast to coast. Lobbyists working for the lending industry fought for deregulation so they could lend to a broader base of customers. Had we maintained the government regulations we had…this wouldn’t be happening.

As for having the best nation and economy…best nation of people, yes…best economy, no. The dollar is down below the socialist Euro and Canadian loony. Some on the international scene aren't even accepting American currency right now.


we covered this several months ago. you cannot compare corporations in the 18th century to corporations today. these are vastly diffrent things.

what the founders were afraid of, is something vastly different than what Exxon is today.

i aint wasting my breath restating the case.

just google East India Comany, Hudson Bay Company etc.

you will see what the founders were guarding against.

[Ferd]

I see "Free Market Economy" and "Communism" the same way...the both sound good on paper but don't work in practice. Those who are dogmatic purists don't see this, but hey, that's the way it's always been. So I prefer "Fair Trade" over "Free Trade" and a "Mixed Economy". Also I see things in a state of flux. There are times in a mixed economy to lighten up on regulation and lean toward a more open market...then there are times to tighten the belt so to speak.

I still believe that a free market economy is the best path to prosperity.

[ChristopherHall]

we covered this several months ago. you cannot compare corporations in the 18th century to corporations today. these are vastly diffrent things.

what the founders were afraid of, is something vastly different than what Exxon is today.

i aint wasting my breath restating the case.

just google East India Comany, Hudson Bay Company etc.

you will see what the founders were guarding against.

Ferd, Ferd, Ferd,

The founders were afraid of corporate power undermining the integrity of government and the prosperity of the American people. Like Lincoln so eloquently described as the majority of the nation’s wealth of our nation being aggregated into the hands of a very few. Yes, in our founders time the primary concerns were the East India Company and the Hudson Bay Company. So yes, these laws directly addressed them. However, as history will show you these laws were used time and time again against corporations seeking to monopolize or corner the market, if my memory serves me correctly there was a very bitter and lengthy political battle with private railroad companies who desired to fund politicians to get laws passed in their favor. These laws were used to curtail corporate power of AMERICAN companies well into the latter half of the 1800’s. Until the Supreme Court was essentially bribed to rule in favor of corporate personhood. The issue at state is the power of money in a Democracy. Without sound laws restraining corporate power in politics the politicians will work for the corporations….not the American people. You of all people should know this. Ultimately the issue was to protect the government of the people, by the people, and for the people from becoming the government of the corporation, by the corporation, for the corporation.

Also in regards to taxation. The majority of taxes were paid through taxes on property, trade, tariffs, and excise taxes. Essentially taxes weren’t levied on individuals, taxes were on business. Corporations have reversed a lot of this. They’ve slowly built themselves tax shelters by contributing to politicians who will favor them and slowly down through the decades more and more cost of government was levied against individuals in the form of income taxes. That’s why corporations were big on individual income taxes when the Amendment was passed.

As for Exxon. I don’t think Exxon is a problem. Exxon is just an oil company. The real trouble makers today are corporations like Halliburton and those corporate conglomerates that aren’t house hold names.

****News Flash****

I just heard a news story on record costs for food and how it is not only effect us but poor nations throughout the world. This is beginning to sound like the book of Revelation….

“{6:5} And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. {6:6} And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.” – Revelation 6:5-6

I firmly believe that the Antichrist will rule through uniting global corporate bodies. They have the money, not the UN or democracies throughout the world. They could use their money and power to influence and destabilize democracies throughout the world. And when they meet in secrete…I assure you it’s not about what’s in our best interests.

[DividedThigh]

dont you think that blame haliburton thing is gettin a little old, some people shoudnt talk about stuff they dont understand, lol, dt:bored

[ChristopherHall]

dont you think that blame haliburton thing is gettin a little old, some people shoudnt talk about stuff they dont understand, lol, dt:bored

Do you realize the absolute waste in tax dollars we've put forward in contracts with Halliburton? For those wanting to know more about Halliburton and war profiteering please watch the following documentary:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/view/

[DividedThigh]

while you are watching the documentary by the "unbiased" people at pbs, yeah right, dont forget that haliburton provided services on contracts in iraq that no other company at the time of the bids could provide, and many of there employees have been killed in iraq, but go ahead and listen to chris parrot the talking points of the lib media, enough for me, good greif, lol,dt

[ChristopherHall]

while you are watching the documentary by the "unbiased" people at pbs, yeah right, dont forget that haliburton provided services on contracts in iraq that no other company at the time of the bids could provide, and many of there employees have been killed in iraq, but go ahead and listen to chris parrot the talking points of the lib media, enough for me, good greif, lol,dt

A lot of what Halliburton is doing was "no-bid". In addition their employees shouldn't be dying in Iraq. The problem is, it's a corporate war. I'm a Controller/Reconciler with the city government. I give requisitions to Purchasing and process bid tabs. There are ways to tailor a requisition to narrow the scope to get the comany desired. It's done every day.

Remember, I'm a government employee and that is part of my job.

As for something that is "unbiased"....there's no such thing as being "unbiased". Everything has a bias. The issue is...who's facts check out the best when the unknown details are revealed. ;)

[DividedThigh]

my whole point which i seem to have to explain to another govt employee is that everyone knows pbs is biased, good grief, have a nice life, i hope the govt supplies all your dreams, bye bye now, lol,dt

[ChristopherHall]

my whole point which i seem to have to explain to another govt employee is that everyone knows pbs is biased, good grief, have a nice life, i hope the govt supplies all your dreams, bye bye now, lol,dt

Bro...nothing's unbiased. You have to look up the facts and see who is telling you the most facts and the least spin.

I don't look to government to supply all my dreams bro. I just work for the government, have friends and family in other countries, have traveled abroad a bit, and happen to know about contracts and how private companies stick it to you...the tax payer. I save tax payers money every day by enforcing specification standards on contracts. If it wasn't for guys like me...Uncle Sam would be plundered by companies from coast to coast.

This is an example of spin...nowhere did I say anything about government supplying all my dreams. That's the spin and slander from your perspective...all I said is that you and I would save money with a universal health insurance plan...and I've explained how it would save you more of your own money. But....you'd rather be ripped off. I just find it amusing.

What do you do for a living?

[DividedThigh]

the last thing i would like to see is the govt that messes everything up manage my healthcare , no thanks, i am a financial advisor, pretty sure i understand these companies and there sources of money, end of discussion, dt:bored

[ChristopherHall]

the last thing i would like to see is the govt that messes everything up manage my healthcare , no thanks, i am a financial advisor, pretty sure i understand these companies and there sources of money, end of discussion, dt:bored

Do you “manage” your health care right now? If you have insurance, insurance companies can typically deny you a procedure if they feel it’s unnecessary or doesn’t meet their coverage requirements. Most folks cannot go outside of their network and keep full coverage. You’re healthcare is currently managed by a massive, wasteful, redundant corporate insurance bureaucracy. I got hurt at work back in 98 and needed surgery on my thumb. My insurance denied me coverage. Dude…what’s the difference other than private insurance costing more?

[HeavenlyOne]

Most don't realize that the soldier's parents, Noam Shalit and his wife, Aviva, have been begging Carter to secure their son's release for some time now. I think it's interesting. We're seeing a man with his hands open, approaching a vicious enemy, trying to be a voice for parents who want their son's release. Meanwhile the world jeers curses at him.

Dude...Carter's either a nutcase or a saint.

If it were my son, I'll be honest, I'd want Carter to secure his release.

Chris, don't believe everything you read online and less of what you hear on radio or TV. You are too young to remember when Carter was president and actions he took that devastated this country. Now we have people who are begging Carter, a man who looks like he's about to drop dead any moment, to secure their son's release, as if Carter has any power in this country???

Yes, Carter is a nutcase. Always was. His age isn't doing him any favors.

[HeavenlyOne]

Let assume Carter didn't go to NK to try to negotiate a deal. Would things be significantly better?

Carter's failed attempts at negotiating with the NK does show the world that they are a rogue nation. Any use of force against NK will be more easily justified seeing that they lied and didn't stick to their end of the bargain in relation to nuclear weapons. So the negotiations failed...but politically it isolates them more and demonstrates to the world that they cannot be trusted. So not all was lost.

And you think Hamas is somehow more saintly of a people??? Chris, they refuse to obey any peace agreeements that they have even signed in the past with other peoples and nations!!! And you think sitting down with them is the first step in gaining peace from these terrorists??? You obviously don't understand the mindset here. I'll give you a clue in just three words...

THEY

DON'T

CARE

[ChristopherHall]

Chris, don't believe everything you read online and less of what you hear on radio or TV. You are too young to remember when Carter was president and actions he took that devastated this country. Now we have people who are begging Carter, a man who looks like he's about to drop dead any moment, to secure their son's release, as if Carter has any power in this country???

Yes, Carter is a nutcase. Always was. His age isn't doing him any favors.

That's a pretty strong judgment against a man trying to secure the release of an Israeli prisoner at the request of his parents. Why do you have anything against securing the release of an Israeli soldier who is being held prisoner?

[ChristopherHall]

And you think Hamas is somehow more saintly of a people??? Chris, they refuse to obey any peace agreeements that they have even signed in the past with other peoples and nations!!! And you think sitting down with them is the first step in gaining peace from these terrorists??? You obviously don't understand the mindset here. I'll give you a clue in just three words...

THEY

DON'T

CARE

I never said that Hamas is saintly. In fact, these guys are nuts.

Please name an agreement made with "Hamas". From my knowledge we've not brokered any official deals with Hamas...policy doesn't allow it.

Carter stated earlier today that his visit isn't official business of the United States but rather a private meeting in which he hopes to secure the release of the Israeli soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit. Yes, he's sharing with both sides admonishions to work for peace, but nothing he's doing is official. You and I agree that Hamas are wackos, crazy lunatics. That means the days of Cpl. Gilad Shalit might be numbered. I'm surprised he's still alive. Carter might be his only hope. While I think Carter is a nut, I cannot bring myself to disparage an effort of any individual to save another individual's life. What if Carter or some other left wing nut case was trying to negotiate with an armed gang leader holding a gun to a cop's head? What bothers me is that according to your logic you'd be more upset that a nutjob like Carter was sticking his nose where it doesn't belong than praying that he succeed in getting the cop released and to safety.

You're putting your politics over the very life of Cpl. Gilad Shalit. Sure, Carter's a nut. He's not always got the best deals when it comes to negotiations. But the clock is ticking and the life of an Israeli soldier is on the line. Do you want this soldier released and returned to his family or do you want to undermine Carter's effort for political expediency because you don't agree with his politics? Why don't you want to see an Israeli soldier's life saved? Why aren't you setting your politics aside and praying for both Carter and Cpl. Gilad Shalit?

[Pressing-On]

We don't know much about Obama's audience, other than that four fundraisers were held on April 6 at the homes of San Francisco's rich and mighty, such as Alex Mehran, an Iranian who went into daddy's business and married an IBM heiress, and Gordon Getty, heir to the Getty Oil fortune.

It is not known whether any of Getty's three illegitimate children attended the Obama fundraiser -- which turned out to be more of a McCain fundraiser -- but photos from the event indicate that there were a fair number of armed (and presumably bitter) policemen providing security for the billionaire's soiree.

In 1967, Gordon sued his own father to get his hands on money from the family trust -- and lost. So Gordon Getty knows from bitter. It's a wonder he hasn't turned to guns, or even to immigrant-bashing. God knows (whoever he is) there are enough of them working on his home. -


The winner of the Democratic primary is always the candidate who does the best impersonation of an American.

Ann Coulter

:killinme :killinme :killinme

[DividedThigh]

nice quotes press, lol, and to the wind i say, whatever, with a tude, lol,dt

[Pressing-On]

nice quotes press, lol, and to the wind i say, whatever, with a tude, lol,dt
You have to admit the "bitter" gun toting policemen was a riot!!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

[DividedThigh]

You have to admit the "bitter" gun toting policemen was a riot!!! :ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

i believe obama will soon if not allready regret he ever said such nonsense, lol, dt

[HeavenlyOne]

That's a pretty strong judgment against a man trying to secure the release of an Israeli prisoner at the request of his parents. Why do you have anything against securing the release of an Israeli soldier who is being held prisoner?

Chris, did you even read my post???

Obviously not, because it had nothing to do with your post above.

[Pressing-On]

i believe obama will soon if not allready regret he ever said such nonsense, lol, dt

"Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh."

It's so funny, but just before this current debacle he made I saw a clip of him walking past a crowd after a rally and I thought, "Boy, he has a lot of arrogance in that step." Just an observation. :D

[HeavenlyOne]

I never said that Hamas is saintly. In fact, these guys are nuts.

Please name an agreement made with "Hamas". From my knowledge we've not brokered any official deals with Hamas...policy doesn't allow it.

Carter stated earlier today that his visit isn't official business of the United States but rather a private meeting in which he hopes to secure the release of the Israeli soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit. Yes, he's sharing with both sides admonishions to work for peace, but nothing he's doing is official. You and I agree that Hamas are wackos, crazy lunatics. That means the days of Cpl. Gilad Shalit might be numbered. I'm surprised he's still alive. Carter might be his only hope. While I think Carter is a nut, I cannot bring myself to disparage an effort of any individual to save another individual's life. What if Carter or some other left wing nut case was trying to negotiate with an armed gang leader holding a gun to a cop's head? What bothers me is that according to your logic you'd be more upset that a nutjob like Carter was sticking his nose where it doesn't belong than praying that he succeed in getting the cop released and to safety.

You're putting your politics over the very life of Cpl. Gilad Shalit. Sure, Carter's a nut. He's not always got the best deals when it comes to negotiations. But the clock is ticking and the life of an Israeli soldier is on the line. Do you want this soldier released and returned to his family or do you want to undermine Carter's effort for political expediency because you don't agree with his politics? Why don't you want to see an Israeli soldier's life saved? Why aren't you setting your politics aside and praying for both Carter and Cpl. Gilad Shalit?

We don't throw ethics out the window for the better good, especially when it doesn't concern us.

Now, if it were an American soldier, I might throw ethics out, depending on the situation, but for someone that isn't American? Nope. Sorry. I won't throw out ethics related to my country because after all, I'm trying to save someone's life.

Again, who is Carter that he could possibly do something that others have tried and failed to do, even in his own country?

And what does laying flowers on the grave of a terrorist have to do with securing the release of a prisoner?

[tstew]

Both parties are pro-abortion. Both parties are for civil unions. The only issue is that one party is lying about it and using religion to manipulate good people.

Chris, I often wonder why this is not obvious to everybody. Republican politicians get away with paying lip service to these two issues to guarantee the Christian vote while not having to be accountable for doing anything about them nor anything else for that matter (to keep guaranteeing the vote). I strongly doubt most of them truly have strong Christian convictions in these areas or many other areas of their lives. It's not as if a Republican controlled White House and Senate have ever been close to erradicating either. If Mccain wins, I would wager that there would be no impact on the thousands of abortions and I'm sure there will still be homosexuality.
I look at this with the same sadness as I look at the token positions that enable the Democrats to guarantee the Black vote with very little effort, accountability, or scrutiny.

[DividedThigh]

tstew my friend there will always be homosexuals, but we dont have to condone there behavior by giving them normal marriage priveleges, and also if mccain does win he promises to nominate conservative judges that will help in the battle against abortion, i believe that judges are a big deal because many issues that the liberals cant get done in the congress they turn to the judiciary to see if it cant be rammed down our throats, just my honest opinions, smile, dt:kickcan

[tstew]

tstew my friend there will always be homosexuals, but we dont have to condone there behavior by giving them normal marriage priveleges, and also if mccain does win he promises to nominate conservative judges that will help in the battle against abortion, i believe that judges are a big deal because many issues that the liberals cant get done in the congress they turn to the judiciary to see if it cant be rammed down our throats, just my honest opinions, smile, dt:kickcan

My problem is that I have seen enough of politicians' practices and lifestyles on both sides of the aisle to buy this deep moral indignation at homosexuality and abortion. My skepticism is strengthened by the fact that once in power, they do very little to get rid of them.
I guess what I'm saying is that if those of us on this forum who do feel strongly about these areas were ever in the position of power to do something about it (and in the majority), we probably would have done more.

It's just my opinion that they know they can roll those issues out there in word only, and secure our votes. Meanwhile I have no doubt that the corporate collusion and greed have infiltrated that party in almost unprecedented ways to the extent that it is affecting our lives in real and devastating ways and costing the lives of our children.
BTW I am not a Democrat...I want the Republican party to be what we hope it is...but I'm just starting to see a lot of things.

[DividedThigh]

My problem is that I have seen enough of politicians' practices and lifestyles on both sides of the aisle to buy this deep moral indignation at homosexuality and abortion. My skepticism is strengthened by the fact that once in power, they do very little to get rid of them.
I guess what I'm saying is that if those of us on this forum who do feel strongly about these areas were ever in the position of power to do something about it (and in the majority), we probably would have done more.

It's just my opinion that they know they can roll those issues out there in word only, and secure our votes. Meanwhile I have no doubt that the corporate collusion and greed have infiltrated that party in almost unprecedented ways to the extent that it is affecting our lives in real and devastating ways and costing the lives of our children.
BTW I am not a Democrat...I want the Republican party to be what we hope it is...but I'm just starting to see a lot of things.

i never assumed you were bro, i understand your feelings and agree with you on many levels, i just know that judicial appts make a huge diff and it is one small way that can have huge effects going forward, with you all the way bro, dt

[tstew]

I'm almost to the point where I'm just feeling like we should elect politicians just based on how they will run the country and how secure our children will be. Then the church and parents will have to instill our values and our sense of morality. I say that not because I don't want a moral and Godly government, I say that because I'm becoming more and more convinced that we do not presently have moral and Godly options.... Maybe after some coffee I'll feel better.

[Ferd]

Both parties are pro-abortion. Both parties are for civil unions. The only issue is that one party is lying about it and using religion to manipulate good people.

Chris, I often wonder why this is not obvious to everybody. Republican politicians get away with paying lip service to these two issues to guarantee the Christian vote while not having to be accountable for doing anything about them nor anything else for that matter (to keep guaranteeing the vote). I strongly doubt most of them truly have strong Christian convictions in these areas or many other areas of their lives. It's not as if a Republican controlled White House and Senate have ever been close to erradicating either. If Mccain wins, I would wager that there would be no impact on the thousands of abortions and I'm sure there will still be homosexuality.
I look at this with the same sadness as I look at the token positions that enable the Democrats to guarantee the Black vote with very little effort, accountability, or scrutiny.

As it relates to Abortion, Chris is absolutly wrong. Either it is a case of ignorance or a case of willful misdirection.


As an American institution, Abortion is OUTSIDE of the political process. You could have 435 anti-aboriton members of the House and a 100 anti-abortion senators and an Anti-Abortion President and you wouldnt be able to get a law passed that would impact abortion.

Chris says that Republicans are for abortion and are lying about it? thats just nuts.

the fact is, it doesnt matter if Rs are for or against it, what matters is the president appoint Supreme Court Justices that will drive Abortion back into the political process!

The Dems certainly wont do that. No they appoint incompitants like Ginsburg who thinks everyone ought to get an abortion men, women and even potatos.

Voting for republicans means getting Justices that wont create law. That wont legislate from the bench.

THAT is what needs to happen. then let the political process take its course.

Dems dont want that because they would rather govern by Fiat.

[tstew]

As it relates to Abortion, Chris is absolutly wrong. Either it is a case of ignorance or a case of willful misdirection.


As an American institution, Abortion is OUTSIDE of the political process. You could have 435 anti-aboriton members of the House and a 100 anti-abortion senators and an Anti-Abortion President and you wouldnt be able to get a law passed that would impact abortion.

Chris says that Republicans are for abortion and are lying about it? thats just nuts.

the fact is, it doesnt matter if Rs are for or against it, what matters is the president appoint Supreme Court Justices that will drive Abortion back into the political process!

The Dems certainly wont do that. No they appoint incompitants like Ginsburg who thinks everyone ought to get an abortion men, women and even potatos.

Voting for republicans means getting Justices that wont create law. That wont legislate from the bench.

THAT is what needs to happen. then let the political process take its course.

Dems dont want that because they would rather govern by Fiat.

Ferd, I understand that. My point is that there is not a candidate who would ban abortion, and certainly not a Supreme Court that would.
My main point is that I am concerned about our nation being sold out and heading in the wrong direction. I don't like to see any politician given blind support based on what can easily be construed as token stances. Whether it is minority support of Dems or Christian support of Reps. Either way there is too much at stake. I am concerned about what our country will be like for the next generation.
The greatest asset in a democracy is accountability to the people...the best way to avoid accountability is to hang your hat on a few issues that people are very passionate about.

[ChristopherHall]

We don't throw ethics out the window for the better good, especially when it doesn't concern us.

Now, if it were an American soldier, I might throw ethics out, depending on the situation, but for someone that isn't American? Nope. Sorry. I won't throw out ethics related to my country because after all, I'm trying to save someone's life.

Carter is acting as a private individual who happens to have contacts in the American government, giving him some extra respect abroad. Nevertheless, Carter is a private citizen on a private errand to secure the release of an Israeli prisoner at the behest of that prisoner’s parents. This Israeli soldier is a human being. Perhaps if he were an unborn person you’d care. However, the Israeli soldier is a human being and his life is at stake. This isn’t a movie. It’s not a chess game. This isn’t a play. This isn’t an internet video on YouTube. This is a real person, a real father, a real husband, a real child of loving parents being held prisoner by a vicious enemy. What kind of Christian would look pleading parents in their tear filled eyes and say, “Sorry, I know I could go, but it would make me look bad politically and I risk making our country look bad. Sorry…you’re son will have to die. BUT, I’ll pray for y’all.”??? I would give a Christian like that a very quick lesson on ethics…a Christian is beholden to a HIGHER ethic, rules of a HIGHER Kingdom. Carter, a private citizen who is a Baptist Christian, is personally traveling to the other side of the planet to meet with very dangerous men to secure the release of a prisoner before they kill him. Carter isn’t afraid of what it will look like politically, he isn’t afraid of how it makes this earthly nation look. His concern is the life and well being of a human being who has no other hope. He can’t help them all…but this person’s parents laid this plight at his feet. Carter could have walked away and avoided the rants and condemnations of the right wing. Carter could have walked away and tried not to risk making Democrats look bad in an election year. But Carter is doing something I think takes far more guts than most are able to see. To save this person’s life he’s risking damaging his political clout with Israel, risking damaging the perception of the Democratic party in the eyes of the electorate in an election year, risking being lied to once more, risking embarrassing his own country…all to get a person home to their family. I think that’s commendable.

It all comes down to what matters most to you. To Carter…he feels he has to secure the release of this prisoner. For all I know advisors had repeatedly told him, “President Carter…this will look very bad. We advise you not get involved.” Yet maybe something deep down in his soul is propelling him. How do we know God isn’t leading this Baptist to get an Israeli free. Yes…God can use a Baptist to do what an army of soldier and a thousand bombs can never do. Look at it SPIRITUALLY and don’t be the pawn of the Right Wing.

Again, who is Carter that he could possibly do something that others have tried and failed to do, even in his own country?

Carter is a human being who counts himself a Christian…trying to secure the life and freedom of another human being who is a Jewish citizen of Israel. This soldier is of the seed of Abraham. I think Carter would be cursed if he told the soldier’s parents “no”.

And what does laying flowers on the grave of a terrorist have to do with securing the release of a prisoner?

Maybe I understand this because I was a three year French student and President of Colonel White H.S.’s International Club my Junior year. I was also involved with People to People International in a Soviet/American Student Youth Exchange program, though I couldn’t raise the money to go, I still had gone to all the meetings. I remember being told how to react when eating with foreign peoples. Never turn down the food no matter how gross it appears to you, EAT IT. Don’t cough it up or spit it out. When shown pictures of family members praise them and compliment them, if they are deceased speak the absolute best of them. It’s about respect. When Carter lays down flowers on the grave of a terrorist, remember, in the eyes of the Palestinians and the Hamas he’s not a terrorist, but a a martyred “freedom fighter”. By laying flowers on the man’s grave Cater is showing deep respect not only to the dead, but to those who loved him including his Hamas superiors and his family. Such a gesture is no doubt aimed at showing them that he respects them as a people and wishes them no harm, his mission is only to secure the prisoner.

My God…Bush has utterly twisted any notion of civility and ambassadorship among Conservatives. Dear Lord I fear for us.

[ChristopherHall]

Chris, I often wonder why this is not obvious to everybody. Republican politicians get away with paying lip service to these two issues to guarantee the Christian vote while not having to be accountable for doing anything about them nor anything else for that matter (to keep guaranteeing the vote). I strongly doubt most of them truly have strong Christian convictions in these areas or many other areas of their lives. It's not as if a Republican controlled White House and Senate have ever been close to erradicating either. If Mccain wins, I would wager that there would be no impact on the thousands of abortions and I'm sure there will still be homosexuality.
I look at this with the same sadness as I look at the token positions that enable the Democrats to guarantee the Black vote with very little effort, accountability, or scrutiny.

Amen. But the partisan ideologues will swear that we have to elect a Republican because of gay marriage and abortion. Honestly, the jokes on them.

[ChristopherHall]

tstew my friend there will always be homosexuals, but we dont have to condone there behavior by giving them normal marriage priveleges, and also if mccain does win he promises to nominate conservative judges that will help in the battle against abortion, i believe that judges are a big deal because many issues that the liberals cant get done in the congress they turn to the judiciary to see if it cant be rammed down our throats, just my honest opinions, smile, dt:kickcan

dt…I don’t want to say you don’t know what you’re talking about…but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

McCain never promised to nominate “conservative” judges that will help in the battle against abortion. He was repeatedly asked if a judge’s position on abortion would have ANY importance in being nominated. McCain offered the political answer that he wouldn’t ask how a judge would rule on a case. They even drilled him as to if he would even review the judge’s record on the issue and he argued that he wouldn’t, McCain said anyone can take this as they want to, but he’d only seek “strict constructionist” judges. That’s code language. Obama has said outright that he would appoint judges respecting a woman’s right to choose. The Republican base is Pro-Life. Why in Heaven would McCain refrain from saying clearly that he would consider a judge’s position on abortion and respect for life, though not make it a litmus test like Reagan did? I’ll tell you why…McCain has no intention of making such a promise or implication because he doesn’t intend on nominating a justice who will address abortion. Why? Because Republicans need the abortion issue as an issue to use in elections. There are devout Catholics who would vote Democratic if the issue were resolved…but with the abortion issue on the table they lock in many folks. It’s a tool to manipulate religious people who are too gullible to realize that they’re being manipulated. While we disagree with Obama on the issue…Obama is being truthful McCain is trying to pull a fast one.

The majority of judges Republicans nominate aren’t focused on issues of civil liberties…but rather corporate law. Corporations need a justice system that rules in their favor over individuals. For example, Home Depot is a notable offender. Home Depot has approached local governments and requested that these governments use immanent domain powers to take private property and land from individual home owners and small businesses so that they can develop it into massive retail outlets. Since taxes have been cut so low most state governments and municipalities are hurting for revenue. When presenting the case to local and state governments Home Depot and other massive companies underscore how much additional tax revenue will be generated with a massive retail outlet over a few homes on an expanse of land. They governments have often decided that it was in the community’s best interest and excersized their rights of immenent domain and taken land from private citizens to give it to companies like Home Depot. Then it goes to court. Guess who the companies want on the courts? Here’s the code, “Strict CONSTRUCTIONist judges.” And when a company wants to begin developing a tract of protected forest or wetland…guess who they want on the courts? Again, “Strict CONSTRUCTIONist judges.” It’s not about values…it’s about corporate power vs. the people.

When it comes to “marriage” we’re in a difficult position. Does one believe in religious freedom to practice their own religion? What if the Episcopal church sanctions such unions? Do we say they don’t have a right to practice their religion? Also you have the issue of civil rights. Two sovereign adult citizens desiring to marry. Do you deny them that right under the law?

BUT…most importantly in regards to the civil union issue we never hear about what’s fueling the gay marriage movement. CORPORATIONS have increasingly given “domestic partner benefits” to gay and unmarried couples. When CORPORATIONS began offering gay employees “domestic partner benefits” the issue of benefits brought up the question of civil rights. While gay couples shared medical insurance and life insurance, they were often denied various liberties by the state leading to litigation. For example, a gay couple might share health and life insurance through a company one of them works for…but when one of them is dying the other partner doesn’t have the rights of a spouse in relation to various details. Often families of dead gays have sued the other gay person who was signed as a beneficiary claiming that they had no right to benefits. These gay people began to feel if they are signed on for benefits through these companies they should have all the rights of a legally married couple…enter, the battle for gay marriage. Thank the CORPORATIONS and businesses that opened this Pandora’s Box!

Most folks don't know enough about this stuff.

[ChristopherHall]

Ferd…7 out of 9 justices were appointed by Pro-Life Republican Presidents and the SCOTUS has done little about abortion. Do you think 8 out of 9 will do it? Or 9 out of 9? And then aren’t you concerned with any of their other positions? Like are they pro-business over civil rights? Do they feel Wal-Mart or Home Depot has a greater right to your property than you do? Do they believe private communications companies have a right to disclose your communication records to the government? Would they rule I favor of warrantless wiretapping?

Here’s the deal…what are you willing to sacrifice in your pursuit of this issue?

If they do allow abortion to be banned…what will be the penalty? No court in the land will prosecute a woman or a doctor for abortion and send them to prison. What will be won after all this money is spent, all this effort is used, and all these corporate puppets have secured a one party Corporatocracy in the US?

[DividedThigh]

dt…I don’t want to say you don’t know what you’re talking about…but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

McCain never promised to nominate “conservative” judges that will help in the battle against abortion. He was repeatedly asked if a judge’s position on abortion would have ANY importance in being nominated. McCain offered the political answer that he wouldn’t ask how a judge would rule on a case. They even drilled him as to if he would even review the judge’s record on the issue and he argued that he wouldn’t, McCain said anyone can take this as they want to, but he’d only seek “strict constructionist” judges. That’s code language. Obama has said outright that he would appoint judges respecting a woman’s right to choose. The Republican base is Pro-Life. Why in Heaven would McCain refrain from saying clearly that he would consider a judge’s position on abortion and respect for life, though not make it a litmus test like Reagan did? I’ll tell you why…McCain has no intention of making such a promise or implication because he doesn’t intend on nominating a justice who will address abortion. Why? Because Republicans need the abortion issue as an issue to use in elections. There are devout Catholics who would vote Democratic if the issue were resolved…but with the abortion issue on the table they lock in many folks. It’s a tool to manipulate religious people who are too gullible to realize that they’re being manipulated. While we disagree with Obama on the issue…Obama is being truthful McCain is trying to pull a fast one.

The majority of judges Republicans nominate aren’t focused on issues of civil liberties…but rather corporate law. Corporations need a justice system that rules in their favor over individuals. For example, Home Depot is a notable offender. Home Depot has approached local governments and requested that these governments use immanent domain powers to take private property and land from individual home owners and small businesses so that they can develop it into massive retail outlets. Since taxes have been cut so low most state governments and municipalities are hurting for revenue. When presenting the case to local and state governments Home Depot and other massive companies underscore how much additional tax revenue will be generated with a massive retail outlet over a few homes on an expanse of land. They governments have often decided that it was in the community’s best interest and excersized their rights of immenent domain and taken land from private citizens to give it to companies like Home Depot. Then it goes to court. Guess who the companies want on the courts? Here’s the code, “Strict CONSTRUCTIONist judges.” And when a company wants to begin developing a tract of protected forest or wetland…guess who they want on the courts? Again, “Strict CONSTRUCTIONist judges.” It’s not about values…it’s about corporate power vs. the people.

When it comes to “marriage” we’re in a difficult position. Does one believe in religious freedom to practice their own religion? What if the Episcopal church sanctions such unions? Do we say they don’t have a right to practice their religion? Also you have the issue of civil rights. Two sovereign adult citizens desiring to marry. Do you deny them that right under the law?

BUT…most importantly in regards to the civil union issue we never hear about what’s fueling the gay marriage movement. CORPORATIONS have increasingly given “domestic partner benefits” to gay and unmarried couples. When CORPORATIONS began offering gay employees “domestic partner benefits” the issue of benefits brought up the question of civil rights. While gay couples shared medical insurance and life insurance, they were often denied various liberties by the state leading to litigation. For example, a gay couple might share health and life insurance through a company one of them works for…but when one of them is dying the other partner doesn’t have the rights of a spouse in relation to various details. Often families of dead gays have sued the other gay person who was signed as a beneficiary claiming that they had no right to benefits. These gay people began to feel if they are signed on for benefits through these companies they should have all the rights of a legally married couple…enter, the battle for gay marriage. Thank the CORPORATIONS and businesses that opened this Pandora’s Box!

Most folks don't know enough about this stuff.

i will say this one thing to you, chris you in my opinion are immature and full of answers for questions that no one is asking, kind of like my son, but just so you know mccain has promised a couple times to appoint conservative judges, now do me a favor and dont address me again, that way i will have peace, and you can do whatever it is you do, good grief, dt

[Ferd]

Ferd…7 out of 9 justices were appointed by Pro-Life Republican Presidents and the SCOTUS has done little about abortion. Do you think 8 out of 9 will do it? Or 9 out of 9? And then aren’t you concerned with any of their other positions? Like are they pro-business over civil rights? Do they feel Wal-Mart or Home Depot has a greater right to your property than you do? Do they believe private communications companies have a right to disclose your communication records to the government? Would they rule I favor of warrantless wiretapping?

Here’s the deal…what are you willing to sacrifice in your pursuit of this issue?

If they do allow abortion to be banned…what will be the penalty? No court in the land will prosecute a woman or a doctor for abortion and send them to prison. What will be won after all this money is spent, all this effort is used, and all these corporate puppets have secured a one party Corporatocracy in the US?

To suggest that Gerald Ford was anti abortion is likely a strech. Stevens is as bad as ginsburg. and Suter was a mistake. Kennedy was more conservitive early on and moved to the center. so now we have 4 good guys in Thomas, Scalia, Roberts and Alito.

I dont know exactly what McCain will do but I know exactly what Obama will do. Obama will give us two Ginsburgs.

if McCain gives us two Kennedy's we wont have the abortion issue back in the political process, but things over all will be far better than the idiots Obama would give us.

I dont want the supreme court to outlaw Aboriton. I want the supreme court to say they dont control it and thus the legislature will have to decide.

the issue isnt outlawing abortion, the issue is driving the law making process back to the legislature.

[ChristopherHall]

The issue at hand here is exactly what Bro. DT stated above...no one is asking some of the very important questions. No one is asking why we've been promised time and time again that our nation's salvation depends upon a Republican being elected, but then after they are elected they forget about us and the preeminent moral issues facing our nation. Oh, they appoint judges, but these judges do more for corporations than they do the unborn. They do more to protect and enthrone corporate power over the individual American than protect the sanctity of marriage. Yet every election they whip out the same ol’ issues we’ve rehashed over 30 years now with little to no progress. We are only allowed to ask certain questions…but never hold the powers that be accountable for their abuse of our values and religion to manipulate us. They cut grants to food banks and charities that help the widows and the fatherless, they cut funding for programs that help poor women with WIC. Why? To facilitate the almighty tax cuts that primarily benefit only the top 2% of America’s wealthiest powers….and it doesn’t trickle down, they invest it, often overseas. They say it’s important to get a conservative justice to resolve these issue…but they hardly ever rule in our favor. Oh…but they will rule that the government has power over our civil liberties like our right to privacy as protected by the 4th Amendment. They rule that municipalities have the power to take land from us and give it to massive corporate conglomerates. But no body is willing to question why. These corporations and companies offer domestic partner benefits that fuel the gay marriage debate. Oh…we hear about the gay marriage debate’s political side…but who is calling this private entities on what started this mess…the abominable practice of “domestic partner” benefits? These under mine marriage tremendously, perhaps even more than a few fruits, nuts, and flakes having a freak-show ceremony in San Francisco. When Ronald Reagan was Gov. of California he popularized “no fault divorce” and state after state followed suit with laws permitting these grave abominations. Today getting a divorce is easier than getting married. No one is asking the questions. Sadly…no one is expected to. And when someone does they are called immature and a myriad of other pejorative labels.

The Republicans have lied to us and anyone with any brains can see this. The conservative Christian political movement is like Jimmy Carter. Every election we sit down and negotiate with the Republicans and agree to give them our vote with the hopes that in turn they will get the power and address the issues we feel are pressing on our society…and then they burn their copy of the contract after being elected. And amazingly the next election the same Christians who convinced us to vote Republican the last election come out like addicted gamblers at a horse race telling us we have to put some more money down, this election is it; this election is the most important in our history. Yep they feverishly argue that the issues of abortion and gay marriage will be decided by this very election and we better vote Republican. If we question them we are labeled Socialists, Liberals, Immature, irreligious, unchristian, and unfaithful. We are made to feel like we are somehow less than Christian. We are accused of being baby killers because we didn’t vote Republican and Sodomites if we vote Democrat. It doesn’t matter if that Democrat is giving the middle class that we live in a tax break that will help us keep our homes, our very roofs over our heads, all that matters is that we are not voting the way they expect us to. The Christian church in America has become just another political action committee in faithful service to the RNC. The Church doesn’t have what it takes to punish the RNC for it’s neglecting our God’s causes. These causes are the cause of God, not Republicans. To elect a Republican again would be patting them on the back telling them to continue lying to us and eviscerating our Constitutional liberties.

Does this mean we vote Democratic? If the Democrats will truly act on issues important to you as a Christian, issues like:

Poverty
Health Care
Environmental Stewardship
Social Justice
War vs. Peace
World Hunger
Racial Discrimination
Economics
Labor

….I see no issue with your vote going for them. At least they will most likely act on the issue you elect them to act on, unlike our Republican snake oil salesmen.

Or maybe you can’t bring yourself to vote Democratic because of issues like abortion and gay marriage. You’re in good company, perhaps the majority of popular Evangelical Christianity will feel as you do. You have the option of not voting. As an individual your not voting is your choice not to participate in a system that is becoming hopelessly corrupt and godless. And if you vote, one can write in Jesus Christ. I wonder how many votes Jesus would get if Christians started a “Vote Jesus” campaign to slap the Republicans as a lesson that they better wake up and do what they promise. “But the Democrats would win!” What’s the difference? You didn’t vote for them. Welcome to Rome, dear Christian Brother. They don’t do things like God would have them. We have to convert them on a personal level. “But a vote for the Republican is a vote for the lesser of two evils.” Ah…but it is still a vote for evil. Who would you vote for Nero or Caligula? Who’s the lesser of two evils? Obviously most Christians couldn’t vote for either in good conscience.

But if you feel the absolute need to vote Republican...don’t denigrate your brethren who don’t. Don’t call them communists, socialists, or anything of the like. Most vote for a party based on issues important to them. Just because one cares about Health Care or the Environment after realizing that nothing’s changing about abortion, it doesn’t mean they favor abortion. It just means they believe that progress can be more readily made in these other areas whereas progress isn’t going to be gained on abortion or gay marriage. It’s fine to talk about the issues…but let’s leave the name calling and labeling at the door.

[ChristopherHall]

To suggest that Gerald Ford was anti abortion is likely a strech. Stevens is as bad as ginsburg. and Suter was a mistake. Kennedy was more conservitive early on and moved to the center. so now we have 4 good guys in Thomas, Scalia, Roberts and Alito.

I dont know exactly what McCain will do but I know exactly what Obama will do. Obama will give us two Ginsburgs.

if McCain gives us two Kennedy's we wont have the abortion issue back in the political process, but things over all will be far better than the idiots Obama would give us.

I dont want the supreme court to outlaw Aboriton. I want the supreme court to say they dont control it and thus the legislature will have to decide.

the issue isnt outlawing abortion, the issue is driving the law making process back to the legislature.

But they discussed that in previous cases. It was discussed as to if the state has the right to essentially seize a woman’s body (legally defined as person) and force her to give birth. As heinous as abortion is, the court decided that it’s best to rule that women have a right over their own bodies and that the government cannot seize their persons thereby relegating the issue to individual choice. In a sense it’s a very conservative position seeing that it limits the power of government over the individual. However, we as Christians agree that this is at the expense of the unborn child. But how does the court decide whose rights to affirm and who’s to deny? They felt it was too complex an issue to be considered an issue of government seeing that the life and person of the mother and the life and person of the unborn child are so intertwined.

Is it possible that conservatives go liberal on this issue? Are we too lazy to preach the gospel and reach out to poor women (remember most women who procure abortions are living in or near the poverty level) to help them when they have a crisis pregnancy and expect the government to moderate this behavior?

And if it does get passed down to the state legislatures…what will be the penalty of procuring an abortion? Life in prison? Six months? Death penalty? A fine? I’m willing to wager they will make it a fine. Why? Because then the crime becomes a revenue generating offense. Prison or capital punishment will be too expensive and controversial. The government will find a way to make money off of aborted babies. Now…is that “Christian”?

Ferd, please offer me the follow through on your reasoning. Explain what happens in a situation where a woman procures abortion from the discovery of the crime to her prosecution and subsequent criminal penalty.

Don’t get me wrong, abortion matters to me. But my immediate family comes first. Convince me that it’s worth selling out to the Republican machine when my family needs a middle class tax breaks the Democrats are promising. We’re about to loose everything we’ve worked for and I have a son going on two years old. We’re working with the bank right now praying that we don’t loose our home. Convince me it’s worth putting my family’s well being on the chopping block.