Biblical guide for a "church service"

[Dr. Vaughn]

This is the Biblical guide for a proper NT church service that would be pleasing to the Lord....

#1 - No speaking in tongues were to be allowed without an audible interpretation:

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Sounds like a Pentecostal service to me............ everyone speaking in tongues at the same time all over the buildings or around the Altar.....Paul rebukes you and commands the churches of God not to participate in such childishness

# 2 - There should be Prophesying - is there Prophesying in each of your services in Pentecost?

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

# 3 - Revealing of the secrets of peoples hearts should be revealed in the services - this is what Bro. Branham did and the Pentecostals said it was witchcraft --

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a Doctrine

# 6 - There should be very limited speaking in tongues

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a tongue

# 7 - Everything done in the service should be for the maturing of the body

Let all things be done unto edifying.

# 8 - No more than three messages in toungues should EVER be given, thus heavily discouraging the Pentecostal over use of tongues -

If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

# 9 - There should never be tongues without an interpretation

and let one interpret.

#10 - There should be silence rather than tongues if there is no one used in the gift of interpretation

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

#11 - There should be words of knowledge and wisdom.. and these should be judged before presented to the church

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

#12 - You should be still and hold your peace

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

#13 - The church is the place for learning

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

#14 - There should be no out of control emotions... and the thinking that God has taken over you and you cannot help yourself

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

#15 - There should be nothing that would look like confusion, nothing out of control, nothing fleshly

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#16 - The service should be a peaceful setting

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#17 - There should be no women bringing forth the Word of God

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

#18 - Finally, nothing should ever be fleshly or demonstrative -- nothing should be out of godly order

Let all things be done decently and in order

If your services do not operate by the above guide given to us by Paul...are we in rebellion to Gods Word?

[Cindy]

Are you an actor Dr. Vaughn?

[Steve Epley]

Dr. Vaughn thinks we have to accept his interpetation of Paul's instructions to be correct. Dr. Vaughn Branham did not follow any of these. So what's with that?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Are you an actor Dr. Vaughn?

I don't see the purpose of your question

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro... Eply there was no interpretation.. I posted the scriptures plainly,, they need no interpretation.....

Please share where Bro. Branham violated these scriptures

[Encryptus]

Thank goodness he forgot about the not getting drunk during communion part.


At least we still have that !!!

[DanielR]

DV, I have to ask. You signed up here at AFF 2 days ago and already have 350 posts, do you have a life outside of the internet?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Thank goodness he forgot about the not getting drunk during communion part.


At least we still have that !!!


Brother you would love our church,,, we use real wine... and we use the common cup... so lots of drinking going on here... see I don't take all the fun out of church

[Steve Epley]

Bro... Eply there was no interpretation.. I posted the scriptures plainly,, they need no interpretation.....

Please share where Bro. Branham violated these scriptures

On the church order tape he said for there to be NO tongues-interpetations-prophecies in a church service.
Paul said FORBID NOT TO SPEAK WITH TONGUES and Branham forbade to speak with tongues. I believe Paul and reject Branham.

The he turned around and violated his own orders! So that meant it was for everyone but him.

[Dr. Vaughn]

DV, I have to ask. You signed up here at AFF 2 days ago and already have 350 posts, do you have a life outside of the internet?

Daniel, I do... luckily I'm in a position to where I can play as long as I want... and I'm enjoying the discussions... I will get bored before long and get back to life..... also I have been stuck at a hospital for three days with nothing but my laptop.... my wife is in the hospital recovering from a blood clot... so theres not much for me to do but look at the walls

[Encryptus]

DV, I have to ask. You signed up here at AFF 2 days ago and already have 350 posts, do you have a life outside of the internet?

Course he does, did you miss the post about pastoring two churches, and running three businesses?

Promoting Branham is a mere pastime.

[Cindy]

I don't see the purpose of your question

If that is you in your avatar you look like an actor from the 50' & 60's.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro. Epley,,,, he had tongues and interpretation in many of the services... I have heard them... he simply expressed that it would be better if they could gather before the service in prayer and if God had a message for the church..... it could be given then and later shared with the church in written form...

[Encryptus]

Daniel, I do... luckily I'm in a position to where I can play as long as I want... and I'm enjoying the discussions... I will get bored before long and get back to life..... also I have been stuck at a hospital for three days with nothing but my laptop.... my wife is in the hospital recovering from a blood clot... so theres not much for me to do but look at the walls


Will say a prayer for your wife.

[Dr. Vaughn]

If that is you in your avatar you look like an actor from the 50' & 60's.

sorry that you feel that way maam... I am just how God made me.. don't know what else to say

[Dr. Vaughn]

Thank You Encryptus

[Grasshopper]

Paul said a man can speak in tongues to himself and to God while praying in church gatherings.

" 28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." - I Corinthians 14:28

The clause on keeping silence is in reference to addressing the church body as a whole. One can freely speak in tongues in prayer during praise and worship...they are simply not to be addressing the whole church in tongues without an interpreter.

Remember in the Bible there are four types of tongues:

-Gift at initial infilling
-Tongues that are heard in a language that the speaker doesn't know.
-Tongues in prayer
-Tongues used in public address coupled with interpretation.

Paul's limitation of two or three is only intended for tongues when used in a public address of the church coupled with interpretation.

We know this because over 120 got the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues freely at Pentecost. This was an initial outpouring and a linguistic miracle. So the rule doesn't apply here. We also read how twelve spoke in tongues in a single meeting when Paul laid hands on them in Acts 19:6-7. Oh...and then their's an entire house hold that speaks in tongues as the Holy Ghost falls in Acts 10.

So any number may speak in tongues during initial infilling and outpouring of the Holy Ghost and in Acts 10 and 19. Evidently at least 120 are allowed to speak in tongues heard as other languages. Paul set's not numerical requirement as to who can "pray" in tongues.

The only requirments are see when tongues is used in public address and should be coupled with interpretation.

Have you ever been used of the Lord in interpretation of tongues?

[Cindy]

Bro. Epley,,,, he had tongues and interpretation in many of the services... I have heard them... he simply expressed that it would be better if they could gather before the service in prayer and if God had a message for the church..... it could be given then and later shared with the church in written form...

Why? No one could hear it directly from the interpreter then. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What if the person writing forgot some words? And who would read the written word?

[Neck]

This is the Biblical guide for a proper NT church service that would be pleasing to the Lord....

#1 - No speaking in tongues were to be allowed without an audible interpretation:

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Sounds like a Pentecostal service to me............ everyone speaking in tongues at the same time all over the buildings or around the Altar.....Paul rebukes you and commands the churches of God not to participate in such childishness

# 2 - There should be Prophesying - is there Prophesying in each of your services in Pentecost?

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

# 3 - Revealing of the secrets of peoples hearts should be revealed in the services - this is what Bro. Branham did and the Pentecostals said it was witchcraft --

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a Doctrine

# 6 - There should be very limited speaking in tongues

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a tongue

# 7 - Everything done in the service should be for the maturing of the body

Let all things be done unto edifying.

# 8 - No more than three messages in toungues should EVER be given, thus heavily discouraging the Pentecostal over use of tongues -

If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

# 9 - There should never be tongues without an interpretation

and let one interpret.

#10 - There should be silence rather than tongues if there is no one used in the gift of interpretation

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

#11 - There should be words of knowledge and wisdom.. and these should be judged before presented to the church

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

#12 - You should be still and hold your peace

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

#13 - The church is the place for learning

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

#14 - There should be no out of control emotions... and the thinking that God has taken over you and you cannot help yourself

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

#15 - There should be nothing that would look like confusion, nothing out of control, nothing fleshly

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#16 - The service should be a peaceful setting

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#17 - There should be no women bringing forth the Word of God

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

#18 - Finally, nothing should ever be fleshly or demonstrative -- nothing should be out of godly order

Let all things be done decently and in order

If your services do not operate by the above guide given to us by Paul...are we in rebellion to Gods Word?

I bet you break all the rules when it comes time to take up the offering.

[DanielR]

Daniel, I do... luckily I'm in a position to where I can play as long as I want... and I'm enjoying the discussions... I will get bored before long and get back to life..... also I have been stuck at a hospital for three days with nothing but my laptop.... my wife is in the hospital recovering from a blood clot... so theres not much for me to do but look at the walls

I'll be sure to keep you and your wife in prayer...do keep us updated.

[Cindy]

sorry that you feel that way maam... I am just how God made me.. don't know what else to say

I don't feel anything about it, I am just saying you remind me of an actor from the 50's or 60's, that's why I asked the question.

[Steve Epley]

Why? No one could hear it directly from the interpreter then. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What if the person writing forgot some words? And who would read the written word?

Branham didn't want anyone stealing his thunder. His church order tape was off the wall like the rest of his stuff BUT he never followed it.

[Grasshopper]

No doubt there are abuses and sometimes the gifts are inordinately focused upon. But Paul only set's the standard of two or three when a speaker is addressing the entire church...not in personal prayer or praise during worship in the beginning of a church gathering. And yes...tongues should not be used to interrupt the preaching...and no one should stand up in front of everyone screaming in tongues unless they know one is there to interpret or can interpret it themselves.

[Cindy]

Will lift up your wife in prayer.

[Cindy]

Branham didn't want anyone stealing his thunder. His church order tape was off the wall like the rest of his stuff BUT he never followed it.

So in actuality he is telling God when to send the tongues and interpretation? Before the service not during. Wow.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Neck. we dont actually take up an offering in our services,,, it is never mentioned.... as the people leave the congregation there are boxes they can place an offering in should they desire... I might add it is always filled to overflowing

[Dr. Vaughn]

Of course NOT maam..... he is telling the people that God is not on a clock.. it doesnt matter to God if it is before or during service.. the message from God will be the same.... gather before the service in a prayer room... as you pray should God have a message for the church let it be spoken in tongues... let it be interpreted and then those messages can be brought before the people.. without confusing the visitors... else they would think we were all mad according to Paul

[Dr. Vaughn]

Grasshopper, I disagree..... Pauls context is VISITORS not understanding whats going on....

You have outsiders and they walk in during praise and worship and all over the building people are speaking in tongues..... they will think were all mad... so this has nothing to do with Pausl frame of reference.. in trying to say he just mean speaking publicaly before the church.... he was against the use of tongues in the public church service UNLESS there would be an interpreter

[Steve Epley]

The majority of folks who come to Pentecostal services enjoy the worship. The last 3 services here a Baptist girl has come to the revival I asked her if she liked it. She said I love it. That has been the majority of comments I have heard visitors make about Pentecostal services.
Now go to Branham church, first thing is the halo picture then the cloud picture. The preacher(if they have one) is talking about the prophet said, sometimes songs are sang about the prophet. Books are shoved in their hands about the prophet. Who do you think the average visitor is going to think is crazy or a cult?

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, I disagree..... Pauls context is VISITORS not understanding whats going on....

You have outsiders and they walk in during praise and worship and all over the building people are speaking in tongues..... they will think were all mad... so this has nothing to do with Pausl frame of reference.. in trying to say he just mean speaking publicaly before the church.... he was against the use of tongues in the public church service UNLESS there would be an interpreter

Paul obviously wasn't against tongues being used during personal devotions and times of prayer before or after the church service. First off...the early church met in homes not in big buildings. Second...these gatherings were intimate and rather close and small, typically no more than 15 to 20 people on average. They also didn't "order" services like we do. There was normally a full meal where bread and wine was offered as part of the Lord's Supper... after they had eaten the main courses. This meal was typically before the teaching portion of the meeting. In addition the teaching wasn't in Greek fashion with one speaker "preaching". The word "preached" used in Acts where Paul preached until midnight is the same word we get our word, "dialogue", from. You see they most likely ate and had the Lord's Supper. Then one of them opened the scroll of an OT book and the preacher began to teach. Then a dialogue began and the teaching and discussion continued often late into the evening as in our case in point. During these times everyone was allowed to bring a song, a teaching, and if there were an interpreter a prophetic utterance in tongues. However, Paul never advocated that they forbid speaking in tongues...especially if it were during times of prayer or private devotions before or after the preaching.

It was a relatively primitive structure bro.

Dr. Vaughn, have you ever been used in the gift of interpretation?

[Cindy]

Of course NOT maam..... he is telling the people that God is not on a clock.. it doesnt matter to God if it is before or during service.. the message from God will be the same.... gather before the service in a prayer room... as you pray should God have a message for the church let it be spoken in tongues... let it be interpreted and then those messages can be brought before the people.. without confusing the visitors... else they would think we were all mad according to Paul

How do you know it doesn't matter to God? He created time. And I would seriously question anyone that thought the service in they're church was more important than God speaking to His people. And yes I know what the Word says about edification. Visitors or not, if God wants to speak through tongues and interpretation he will. And I think that this reasoning might fall under quenching the Spirit. God just might have a word for the visitors as well.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Grasshopper.. it is indeed one of my giftings.

[DanielR]

Paul obviously wasn't against tongues being used during personal devotions and times of prayer before or after the church service. First off...the early church met in homes not in big buildings. Second...these gatherings were intimate and rather close and small, typically no more than 15 to 20 people on average. They also didn't "order" services like we do. There was normally a full meal where bread and wine was offered after they had eaten. This meal was typically before or after the teaching portion of the meeting. In addition the teaching wasn't in Greek fashion with one speaker "preaching". The word "preached" used in Acts where Paul preached until midnight is the same word we get our word, "dialogue", from. You see they most likely ate, sat down, one of them opened the scroll of an OT book and Paul or the preacher began to teach. Then a dialogue began and teaching and discussion continued often late into the evening as in our case in point. During these times everyone was allowed to bring a song, a teaching, and if there were an interpreter a prophetic utterance in tongues. However, Paul never advocated that the forbid speaking in tongues...especially if it were during times of prayer or private devotions before or after the preaching.

I have been to services like this, and in my opinion it's better than the typical church service. I learn alot more in this early church structure than today's modern structure.

[Dr. Vaughn]

How do you know it doesn't matter to God? He created time. And I would seriously question anyone that thought the service in they're church was more important than God speaking to His people. And yes I know what the Word says about edification. Visitors or not, if God wants to speak through tongues and interpretation he will. And I think that this reasoning might fall under quenching the Spirit. God just might have a word for the visitors as well.

Then don't you believe that in his Soverienty he would know before the service that this visitor would be there? Must he wait to see who all shows up and be taken by surprise????? I believe he orders that visitors steps and he is a big enough God to give a Word about that coming visitor BEFORE the SERVICE

[Dr. Vaughn]

DanielR.. that's my point exactly... the early church (which is supposed to be our example) was about instruction.. and learning... it looked nothing like the modern day Pentecostal church services

[Steve Epley]

Then don't you believe that in his Soverienty he would know before the service that this visitor would be there? Must he wait to see who all shows up and be taken by surprise????? I believe he orders that visitors steps and he is a big enough God to give a Word about that coming visitor BEFORE the SERVICE

Why didn't it ever work???????????????????????????????

[Cindy]

Then don't you believe that in his Soverienty he would know before the service that this visitor would be there? Must he wait to see who all shows up and be taken by surprise????? I believe he orders that visitors steps and he is a big enough God to give a Word about that coming visitor BEFORE the SERVICE

Yes I do believe He knows, He is God. He might like to surprise us.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Yes I do believe He knows, He is God. He might like to surprise us.

Oh heres a surprise.. before the service... people are gathered in prayer.. tongues goes forth.. someone interprets and God says

"tonight there will be a visitor amoung you,, she needs to know that I love her etc, etc... now theres a GOD SURPRISE

[DanielR]

Oh heres a surprise.. before the service... people are gathered in prayer.. tongues goes forth.. someone interprets and God says

"tonight there will be a visitor amoung you,, she needs to know that I love her etc, etc... now theres a GOD SURPRISE

I don't see how that would be a suprise, that's pretty much a given for most church services.

[Steve Epley]

Oh heres a surprise.. before the service... people are gathered in prayer.. tongues goes forth.. someone interprets and God says

"tonight there will be a visitor amoung you,, she needs to know that I love her etc, etc... now theres a GOD SURPRISE

Honestly have you ever known that to happen???????

The church order NEVER worked at the Tabernacle.

[Encryptus]

Oh heres a surprise.. before the service... people are gathered in prayer.. tongues goes forth.. someone interprets and God says

"tonight there will be a visitor amoung you,, she needs to know that I love her etc, etc... now theres a GOD SURPRISE

Actually a surprise would be "tonight there will be a visitor among you, she needs to know I hate her"... now that would be a God Surprise

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper.. it is indeed one of my giftings.

Then you should know better than all this mumbo jumbo. lol

[Dr. Vaughn]

Encryptus.. you missed the point....

I was saying if God spoke before the service the exact details of a visitor and he had a very specific message for them.... that would be more suprising than giving the message during the service with the visitor there.. for the visitor that God knew before they came that they would be there.. and he cared enough to tell his people about them through toungues and interpretation

[Grasshopper]

I have been to services like this, and in my opinion it's better than the typical church service. I learn alot more in this early church structure than today's modern structure.

Me too. I think the IC is missing out. ;)

[Dr. Vaughn]

Grasshopper of course not..... actually I am saying we MUST HAVE interpretation in the services or there should be NO TONGUES

[Encryptus]

Encryptus.. you missed the point....

I was saying if God spoke before the service the exact details of a visitor and he had a very specific message for them.... that would be more suprising than giving the message during the service with the visitor there.. for the visitor that God knew before they came that they would be there.. and he cared enough to tell his people about them through toungues and interpretation

Actually I got the point Stevie Ray, was just amused by the example, it would be a sad thing if church needed tongues and interpretation to be know that a visitor should made aware that God loves them.

I think you are missing the point, tongues are a sign for the unbeliever 1 Corinthians 14:22

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

:highfive

[DanielR]

Me too. I think the IC is missing out. ;)In the last two churches that I attended, the mens meeting was set up in that fashion. I love it, it's better than sunday service.

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper of course not..... actually I am saying we MUST HAVE interpretation in the services or there should be NO TONGUES

That's not what Paul said. Paul warned them not to forbid speaking in tongues. The point was that there was to be order "in the church". A time of personal prayer, praise, and worship prior to teaching where people are free to pray in tongues us perfectly fine. But eventually they were to remain quiet and allow the prophets to speak and teach. No more than three elders were to do this at a time and they each had to respect each other and wait in turn if another spoke. As they dialogued with the church body Paul didn't want anyone interrupting in tongues without an interpretation.

Tell me...if Paul commanded that tongues only be used with an interpreter and they were to be limited to three...how many are speaking in tongues and prophesying here...and where's the interpreter????

Acts 19:1-7
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7And all the men were about twelve.

Wow...Paul must have forgotten his own instructions! LOLOLOL

[Dr. Vaughn]

Grasshopper.. why put oranges with apples?

This was an evangelistic endeavor,, outside the confines of a church setting... this was done outside of the church.. there was no gathering for instruction... two total seperate settings

Grasshopper,, you are laughing waay to soon

We are talking about CHURCH ORDER.. this setting is OUTSIDE THE CHURCH

[Threads]

Dr. Vaughn = Wannabe Pentecostal Preacher.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Dr. Vaughn = Wannabe Pentecostal Preacher.

Wow, the Love of God is flowing among the Pentecostals,,,,

[DanielR]

Wow, the Love of God is flowing among the Pentecostals,,,,

get used to it, it's common here at AFF

[Dr. Vaughn]

get used to it, it's common here at AFF

If thats the case,, it is sad... to have such feelings among the family of God

[Encryptus]

Actually I got the point Stevie Ray, was just amused by the example, it would be a sad thing if church needed tongues and interpretation to be know that a visitor should made aware that God loves them.

I think you are missing the point, tongues are a sign for the unbeliever 1 Corinthians 14:22

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

:highfive

:bump

[DanielR]

If thats the case,, it is sad... to have such feelings among the family of God

Yes it's sad, but it's been the case all the way back to the first century, you can see Paul having to deal with it way back then. So, sadly we are in no better shape, and if anything possibly in worse shape now than the early church was.

[Dr. Vaughn]

The majority of folks who come to Pentecostal services enjoy the worship. The last 3 services here a Baptist girl has come to the revival I asked her if she liked it. She said I love it. That has been the majority of comments I have heard visitors make about Pentecostal services.
Now go to Branham church, first thing is the halo picture then the cloud picture. The preacher(if they have one) is talking about the prophet said, sometimes songs are sang about the prophet. Books are shoved in their hands about the prophet. Who do you think the average visitor is going to think is crazy or a cult?

Bro. Eply,, the fact that sinners love your music should tell you that the music of Pentecost is geared to the flesh... it is entertainment.... all flesh loves great music.... rythym and beats.... and fleshly talent

[DanielR]

The majority of folks who come to Pentecostal services enjoy the worship. The last 3 services here a Baptist girl has come to the revival I asked her if she liked it. She said I love it. That has been the majority of comments I have heard visitors make about Pentecostal services.
Now go to Branham church, first thing is the halo picture then the cloud picture. The preacher(if they have one) is talking about the prophet said, sometimes songs are sang about the prophet. Books are shoved in their hands about the prophet. Who do you think the average visitor is going to think is crazy or a cult?

Bro. Eply,, the fact that sinners love your music should tell you that the music of Pentecost is geared to the flesh... it is entertainment.... all flesh loves great music.... rythym and beats.... and fleshly talent

Are you suggesting that the Baptist girl and visitors are sinners? Bro. Epley just said they were visitors, he said nothing about whether they was saved before walking through the door.

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper.. why put oranges with apples?

This was an evangelistic endeavor,, outside the confines of a church setting... this was done outside of the church.. there was no gathering for instruction... two total seperate settings

Grasshopper,, you are laughing waay to soon

We are talking about CHURCH ORDER.. this setting is OUTSIDE THE CHURCH

Bro...they didn't have "churches". The first church buildings in history weren't built until between 250 and 300 years later. The "church" in NT times wasn't considered a building or a place...the church was a body of people...wheresoever two or more gathered in his name...that was church. It doesn't matter if it was in Aquila's house, Nympha's house, Philemon's house, Paul's own rented quarters in Rome, under a tree, out in the field, by the riverside, hill side, or in the market place...wherever the church was gathered...that was "church".

To say that these twelve and Paul were not in "church" because they were not in a religious building or setting is to miss the most revolutionary aspect of New Testament Apostolic Christianity...it was essentially a "church without walls".

Bro Vaughn...it's impossible to argue that this was outside of the church...THEY WERE THE CHURCH.

;)

[Grasshopper]

Wow, the Love of God is flowing among the Pentecostals,,,,

I know bro. I'm not voting Republican and they've already slandered and harassed me so much I changed my screen name so nobody from my church gets nasty with me. The love of God is lacking. But hey...we can still talk about this with civility.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Brother... when the teaching of Gods word,, when Doctrine was being expoused.. when Annanias and Sapphira came before the Apsotles.. this was the setting of the church I am referring to... the setting you describe was by happenstance,,, unplanned, unscheduled... he came upon these 12 men and began to evangelise them..... this was NOT the local gathering of believers

[Dr. Vaughn]

Daniel the implication was that they folks were not saved... if I misunderstood as always I stand corrected

[Grasshopper]

Brother... when the teaching of Gods word,, when Doctrine was being expoused.. when Annanias and Sapphira came before the Apsotles.. this was the setting of the church I am referring to... the setting you describe was by happenstance,,, unplanned, unscheduled... he came upon these 12 men and began to evangelise them..... this was NOT the local gathering of believers

Bro...it was a gathering of Paul and believers who had been baptized by John. They just needed to be made complete in Christ. It's an ancient church service. Don't equate "church" with a place, building, or setting. The "Church" is a people. It doesn't matter if it were Paul and these twelve cats in the middle of a Starbucks...they were "having church" right then and there bro.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Ok question.. Grasshopper... we know from the context that when Paul is giving Church Order instructions he is definitly in the mindset of visitors showing up,,,, a scheduled meetings.. we know from scriptures they gathered on the first day of the week... a scheduled church service.. whether it was in a home or wherever.. it was a scheduled meeting that took place on the first day of the week

this meeting your in reference to... no visitors would have shows up... it was unscheduled,, unannounced.. and therefore does not fit into the mindset or the framework of a "first day of the week church gathering"

[DanielR]

Ok question.. Grasshopper... we know from the context that when Paul is giving Church Order instructions he is definitly in the mindset of visitors showing up,,,, a scheduled meetings.. we know from scriptures they gathered on the first day of the week... a scheduled church service.. whether it was in a home or wherever.. it was a scheduled meeting that took place on the first day of the week

this meeting your in reference to... no visitors would have shows up... it was unscheduled,, unannounced.. and therefore does not fit into the mindset or the framework of a "first day of the week church gathering"

This just sounds like splitting hairs to me...a church service is a church service is a church service...doesn't matter if visitors show up or not.

Lets Have Church!

[Praxeas]

Bro... Eply there was no interpretation.. I posted the scriptures plainly,, they need no interpretation.....

Please share where Bro. Branham violated these scriptures
Actually how would you know if there is no interpretation before speaking in a tongue? It says actually if there is no interpretor...a person with that gift. So of course you would have to know there is no interpretor...

Second Paul did not say don't speak in tongues in that case. He said to speak it to yourself.

We can quibble over the difference between tongues Paul speaks of and the tongues in Acts....which as far as we can see was NOT a church meeting and an interpretation for church edification but was someone receiving the Spirit for the first time

[nathan_slatter]

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies


Okay -- I'm not sure where these are located, scripturally. Could you point me directly to them because they aren't in 1 Corinthians 14?

Thanks...

[CC1]

Bro... Eply there was no interpretation.. I posted the scriptures plainly,, they need no interpretation.....

Please share where Bro. Branham violated these scriptures

LOL!!! With this statement you have lost any crediblity you might have had.

Your post was ALL your interpretation of those scriptures or rather YOUR application of them. (or rather that of your master, William Branham)

Those verses can be twisted to justify any application and that is what you have done.

(I have only read the first few posts in this thread so I am sure this has already been pointed out to you)

[Grasshopper]

Ok question.. Grasshopper... we know from the context that when Paul is giving Church Order instructions he is definitly in the mindset of visitors showing up,,,, a scheduled meetings… we know from scriptures they gathered on the first day of the week... a scheduled church service.. whether it was in a home or wherever.. it was a scheduled meeting that took place on the first day of the week

this meeting your in reference to... no visitors would have shows up... it was unscheduled,, unannounced.. and therefore does not fit into the mindset or the framework of a "first day of the week church gathering"

You’re seeing “church” as being a rigidly described “ritual” instead of a vibrant, flowing, river of life. Church was where ever they took it and gathered. Paul took church to these twelve disciples of John. The day, place, time, etc. doesn’t matter. They didn’t live their spiritual lives nailed down to that sort of thing. It was church on the move…a church without walls. Certainly they met in their homes at prescribed times for convenience and study…but that wasn’t the centerpiece or focus of their faith and practice. Sure, when Paul met the disciples of John in Ephesus it wasn’t a scheduled meeting…but that doesn’t matter. Paul indeed ministered to them in the Word, preaching the fullness of the Gospel, and they gladly received his message and obeyed the Apostolic Gospel. They were water baptized and when Paul laid hands on them they spoke with tongues and magnified God…and there were twelve of them. Bro…if what you’re saying is true, had these twelve people been “visitors” in a church, as you prescribe it, they wouldn’t have received the Holy Ghost in the gathering because tongues would have been forbidden.

Let’s look at Cornelius’ conversion….

Acts 10:19-48
{10:19} While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said
unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. {10:20} Arise
therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting
nothing: for I have sent them. {10:21} Then Peter went
down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius;
and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what [is] the cause
wherefore ye are come? {10:22} And they said, Cornelius
the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of
good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned
from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house,
and to hear words of thee. {10:23} Then called he them in,
and lodged [them.] And on the morrow Peter went away
with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied
him. {10:24} And the morrow after they entered into
Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called
together his kinsmen and near friends. {10:25} And as Peter
was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet,
and worshipped [him. ]{10:26} But Peter took him up,
saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. {10:27} And as
he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were
come together. {10:28} And he said unto them, Ye know
how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to
keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God
hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or
unclean. {10:29} Therefore came I [unto you] without
gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for
what intent ye have sent for me? {10:30} And Cornelius
said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the
ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood
before me in bright clothing, {10:31} And said, Cornelius,
thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance
in the sight of God. {10:32} Send therefore to Joppa, and
call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in
the house of [one] Simon a tanner by the sea side: who,
when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. {10:33}
Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well
done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here
present before God, to hear all things that are commanded
thee of God.
{10:34} Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a
truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: {10:35}
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh
righteousness, is accepted with him. {10:36} The word
which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching
peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: ) {10:37} That
word, [I say,] ye know, which was published throughout all
Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which
John preached; {10:38} How God anointed Jesus of
Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went
about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the
devil; for God was with him. {10:39} And we are witnesses
of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and
in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
{10:40} Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him
openly; {10:41} Not to all the people, but unto witnesses
chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink
with him after he rose from the dead. {10:42} And he
commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that
it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of
quick and dead. {10:43} To him give all the prophets
witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him
shall receive remission of sins.
{10:44} While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy
Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. {10:45} And
they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as
many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also
was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. {10:46} For they
heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then
answered Peter, {10:47} Can any man forbid water, that
these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy
Ghost as well as we? {10:48} And he commanded them to
be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him
to tarry certain days.

Peter and the converted Jewish brethren (the circumcision) went to Cornelius’ home to preach the Gospel to this Gentile. This was a scheduled meeting. Cornelius took opportunity to invite his family and close friends to this meeting. I assure you it was quite a meeting. Standing room only in the Cornelius’ household. I’m sure the food, the coffees, the bread, and the wine were wonderful! Because Italians really know how to treat guests. I can see the kids running around outside in the yard and the adults inside, reclining on pads on the floor…the entire house hold gazing up at Peter as he proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them. While Peter preached the Gospel the Holy Ghost fell on all those who were gathered to hear him. Cornelius, his family, and close friends all got the Holy Ghost. The Jewish disciples with Peter were astonished because this Gentile home had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. How did they know? Be cause they, “heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God”. This whole house hold was speaking in tongues and praising God. In my mind’s eye I can see the kids leaving the ball they were kicking around and running up to the door way to see what all the noise was. Then Peter commanded that they should be baptized in Jesus name.

Bro…nowhere do we read that Peter rebuked them for all speaking in tongues…and here’s something else…they began speaking in tongues while Peter was a preachin’! LOLOLOL

So Bro….you can believe what you like…but I don’t see what you’re saying in Scripture. The rules Paul laid down was in respect to a specific manifestation of tongues, a message to the church, and it was to be done at most by three and an interpreter was required. These rules didn’t apply to initial infillings, or tongues used in prayer.

[Grasshopper]

Also Bro Vaughn…you seem to be focused on what visitors think. Churches with Pentecostal style music and worship are growing at record rates, much faster than the quiet traditional churches. So obviously visitors aren’t as affected by tongues as they are boredom and rigidity. In my experience the majority of visitors fail to receive the Gospel or settle into the church due to their inability to renounce sin...but closely following are rigid and outdated standards or ignorance and crassness in the pulpit.

[Steve Epley]

You’re seeing “church” as being a rigidly described “ritual” instead of a vibrant, flowing, river of life. Church was where ever they took it and gathered. Paul took church to these twelve disciples of John. The day, place, time, etc. doesn’t matter. They didn’t live their spiritual lives nailed down to that sort of thing. It was church on the move…a church without walls. Certainly they met in their homes at prescribed times for convenience and study…but that wasn’t the centerpiece or focus of their faith and practice. Sure, when Paul met the disciples of John in Ephesus it wasn’t a scheduled meeting…but that doesn’t matter. Paul indeed ministered to them in the Word, preaching the fullness of the Gospel, and they gladly received his message and obeyed the Apostolic Gospel. They were water baptized and when Paul laid hands on them they spoke with tongues and magnified God…and there were twelve of them. Bro…if what you’re saying is true, had these twelve people been “visitors” in a church, as you prescribe it, they wouldn’t have received the Holy Ghost in the gathering because tongues would have been forbidden.

Let’s look at Cornelius’ conversion….

Acts 10:19-48
{10:19} While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said
unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. {10:20} Arise
therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting
nothing: for I have sent them. {10:21} Then Peter went
down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius;
and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what [is] the cause
wherefore ye are come? {10:22} And they said, Cornelius
the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of
good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned
from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house,
and to hear words of thee. {10:23} Then called he them in,
and lodged [them.] And on the morrow Peter went away
with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied
him. {10:24} And the morrow after they entered into
Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called
together his kinsmen and near friends. {10:25} And as Peter
was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet,
and worshipped [him. ]{10:26} But Peter took him up,
saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. {10:27} And as
he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were
come together. {10:28} And he said unto them, Ye know
how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to
keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God
hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or
unclean. {10:29} Therefore came I [unto you] without
gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for
what intent ye have sent for me? {10:30} And Cornelius
said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the
ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood
before me in bright clothing, {10:31} And said, Cornelius,
thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance
in the sight of God. {10:32} Send therefore to Joppa, and
call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in
the house of [one] Simon a tanner by the sea side: who,
when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. {10:33}
Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well
done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here
present before God, to hear all things that are commanded
thee of God.
{10:34} Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a
truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: {10:35}
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh
righteousness, is accepted with him. {10:36} The word
which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching
peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: ) {10:37} That
word, [I say,] ye know, which was published throughout all
Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which
John preached; {10:38} How God anointed Jesus of
Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went
about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the
devil; for God was with him. {10:39} And we are witnesses
of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and
in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
{10:40} Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him
openly; {10:41} Not to all the people, but unto witnesses
chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink
with him after he rose from the dead. {10:42} And he
commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that
it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of
quick and dead. {10:43} To him give all the prophets
witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him
shall receive remission of sins.
{10:44} While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy
Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. {10:45} And
they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as
many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also
was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. {10:46} For they
heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then
answered Peter, {10:47} Can any man forbid water, that
these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy
Ghost as well as we? {10:48} And he commanded them to
be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him
to tarry certain days.

Peter and the converted Jewish brethren (the circumcision) went to Cornelius’ home to preach the Gospel to this Gentile. This was a scheduled meeting. Cornelius took opportunity to invite his family and close friends to this meeting. I assure you it was quite a meeting. Standing room only in the Cornelius’ household. I’m sure the food, the coffees, the bread, and the wine were wonderful! Because Italians really know how to treat guests. I can see the kids running around outside in the yard and the adults inside, reclining on pads on the floor…the entire house hold gazing up at Peter as he proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them. While Peter preached the Gospel the Holy Ghost fell on all those who were gathered to hear him. Cornelius, his family, and close friends all got the Holy Ghost. The Jewish disciples with Peter were astonished because this Gentile home had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. How did they know? Be cause they, “heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God”. This whole house hold was speaking in tongues and praising God. In my mind’s eye I can see the kids leaving the ball they were kicking around and running up to the door way to see what all the noise was. Then Peter commanded that they should be baptized in Jesus name.

Bro…nowhere do we read that Peter rebuked them for all speaking in tongues…and here’s something else…they began speaking in tongues while Peter was a preachin’! LOLOLOL

So Bro….you can believe what you like…but I don’t see what you’re saying in Scripture. The rules Paul laid down was in respect to a specific manifestation of tongues, a message to the church, and it was to be done at most by three and an interpreter was required. These rules didn’t apply to initial infillings, or tongues used in prayer.

I was just getting ready to post this. Thanks it won't matter but thanks.

[Grasshopper]

I was just getting ready to post this. Thanks it won't matter but thanks.

Thank you Bro. Epley. :friend

[Steve Epley]

I would rather try to explain some overzealous Pentecostal folks who pushed the button too far than all those halo pictures-cloud pictures(which turned out to to a farce)the prophet said this and that on page 22 in the Broken Word book so and so.

[Grasshopper]

Bro. Vaughn…this might sound silly but I spent some time in prayer and reflection about this on my break. Bro, don’t feel accused or nothing here OK…but we all have a tendency to take what God is dealing with us about and make a pet doctrine or seek to impose it on others. We all do it. God was dealing with me on modesty and the submission of women once…and I got all up in a tizzy over head coverings. I meant well, but God’s point wasn’t that I go around telling the church that it was somehow wrong because the women weren’t’ wearing head coverings. God was showing me how the church I was attending had issues with women submitting to their husbands. Hey, that happens, there are seasons of problems that churches face. When I realized this I sat down with my wife and we had a long talk about what it means to submit and what the Bible means by headship. I realized I had to make promises to her and keep them to help her feel safe enough to submit and praise God she really came a long way real fast after that. But the issue in that church came to a head and manifested itself quite clearly and because of God’s leading on the subject my wife wasn’t a part of that mess.

Bro. Vaughn, I could be wrong…but I’m getting the feeling in my spirit that maybe you’ve been attending a church or churches that have had an inordinate focus on tongues during worship. So much so many have spoke in tongues in their own spirit and not in the Holy Ghost. I get the feeling that this confusion and abuse of a gift you cherish may have vexed your soul. In your studies you feel this drawing to a sense of “spiritual maturity” beyond the tongue talking. You’ve come here to share what God has shown you, and of course it is helping you in your spiritual place right now…but it seems others aren’t quite understanding you because it seems to them that you’re trying to teach a level of control in the church that may be necessary where you come from due to abuses and immature…but may not be an issue where we come from. Take your family to the level God is elevating you to. If you’ve been focusing on tongues…bro go deeper. The water’s fine. ;)

Not everyone has to juke jive and scream in tongues every service. Some are quite quiet. It’s OK to be one of those people.

[Grasshopper]

And personally, I'd drop the Brahnam stuff. He's just a man with opinions. The Bible is the sole authority of our faith.

[WyoPastor]

And personally, I'd drop the Brahnam stuff. He's just a man with opinions. The Bible is the sole authority of our faith.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement and think it is to quit wasting our time on this Brahnamite nonsense.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Grasshopper.. you are referring to what was allowed Pre-Pauline... God sent Paul to set the church in order... anything before that time should not be our example.. we have a perfectly laid out order by our Apostle.. the one appointed by Jesus himself to bring the church into maturity... So....... follow Peters pre-pauline example or follow the latest and more mature word on the subject from the Apostle... keep in mind Peter was an Evangelist.. he was not called to the local church as far as setting it in order.. Paul was

[Rico]

And personally, I'd drop the Brahnam stuff. He's just a man with opinions. The Bible is the sole authority of our faith.

Don't hold your breath, GH.

[Dr. Vaughn]

And personally, I'd drop the Brahnam stuff. He's just a man with opinions. The Bible is the sole authority of our faith.

Grasshopper.. please show me ONE TIME where I quoted Branham in any of my argument on my first post.. what did I quote?? the WORD OF GOD

recognize

[Dr. Vaughn]

I would rather try to explain some overzealous Pentecostal folks who pushed the button too far than all those halo pictures-cloud pictures(which turned out to to a farce)the prophet said this and that on page 22 in the Broken Word book so and so.

Speak for yourself.. there is none of that in the churches we pastor.....

[DividedThigh]

grass and dr v, were meant for each other, you guys both have strong opinions, good for you, debate is healthy, as long as it isnt ugly, dt

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro. Eply... may we be honest for a moment, you and I both?

Have you ever been falsly accused in ministry or someone misunderstood you?

Do you feel your anointed of God and perhaps someone else thought different of you than that?

Are you human? Is there a possibility that you in your limited understand do not know all things?

I am sure you reverence the Holy things of God...... if so.... let's just say for the sake of argument... that William Branham was a Prophet of God.. lets say when you get to heaven and you realize that he was indeed a Prophet....... will you be excited about facing God for saying such horrible things about one of Gods prophets?

I am not trying to prick you brother.. I am as sincere as the morning sun in my questions...

What if... you are wrong........ what if Bro. Branham was a very special servant of God, anointed by God himself with an unparalled ministry....... out of your Love for God...... would you KNOWINGLY say such hurtful things about one of Gods precious gifts to the church????

If you are wrong,,, you may not be.. you might have the answers.. but lets say you dont...... are you prepared to face God with such a record of destructive words about a Prophet of God?

Now, let's say I'm wrong and William Brahnam was not a Prophet..... I believed he was.. worshipping and loving Jesus the whole time.. baptized in Jesus name,, filled with the Holy Ghost and yes I show reverence to a "gift from God"....... and I get to heaven and find out he was not a Prophet.......

who do you think would have a clearer standing before God,, you or I ?

Its as sincere a question as I have ever asked....

[Dr. Vaughn]

I enjoy debating with grass more than anyone on the board so far.... he has his opinions and yet tries to see my reasoning.... thats healthy debate

[bkstokes]

Bro. Eply... may we be honest for a moment, you and I both?

Have you ever been falsly accused in ministry or someone misunderstood you?

Do you feel your anointed of God and perhaps someone else thought different of you than that?

Are you human? Is there a possibility that you in your limited understand do not know all things?

I am sure you reverence the Holy things of God...... if so.... let's just say for the sake of argument... that William Branham was a Prophet of God.. lets say when you get to heaven and you realize that he was indeed a Prophet....... will you be excited about facing God for saying such horrible things about one of Gods prophets?

I am not trying to prick you brother.. I am as sincere as the morning sun in my questions...

What if... you are wrong........ what if Bro. Branham was a very special servant of God, anointed by God himself with an unparalled ministry....... out of your Love for God...... would you KNOWINGLY say such hurtful things about one of Gods precious gifts to the church????

If you are wrong,,, you may not be.. you might have the answers.. but lets say you dont...... are you prepared to face God with such a record of destructive words about a Prophet of God?

Now, let's say I'm wrong and William Brahnam was not a Prophet..... I believed he was.. worshipping and loving Jesus the whole time.. baptized in Jesus name,, filled with the Holy Ghost and yes I show reverence to a "gift from God"....... and I get to heaven and find out he was not a Prophet.......

who do you think would have a clearer standing before God,, you or I ?

Its as sincere a question as I have ever asked....

Paul criticized Peter to his face. He also wrote about it. Paul did it out his sincerity that the gospel would not be corrupted and made more complicated -- I think that is what we are trying to do with you. You want to make things more complicated. If he was a prophet -- so be it -- now he is dead and gone. He spoke this his generation. I am sure the Lord has other men of God to speak to mine.

I love were the writer says that he is LOOKING TO THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF THE FAITH. OH HOW I LOVE JESUS. THANK YOU LORD!

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro. Stokes... scriptures commands us not to call "unholy what God has called holy"

If anyone on this forum has done that.. it is sin..... and I am simply trying to cause people to realize that to just call a man a false prophet because you have doctrinal differences is a very dangerous thing to do

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Eply... may we be honest for a moment, you and I both?

Have you ever been falsly accused in ministry or someone misunderstood you?

Do you feel your anointed of God and perhaps someone else thought different of you than that?

Are you human? Is there a possibility that you in your limited understand do not know all things?

I am sure you reverence the Holy things of God...... if so.... let's just say for the sake of argument... that William Branham was a Prophet of God.. lets say when you get to heaven and you realize that he was indeed a Prophet....... will you be excited about facing God for saying such horrible things about one of Gods prophets?

I am not trying to prick you brother.. I am as sincere as the morning sun in my questions...

What if... you are wrong........ what if Bro. Branham was a very special servant of God, anointed by God himself with an unparalled ministry....... out of your Love for God...... would you KNOWINGLY say such hurtful things about one of Gods precious gifts to the church????

If you are wrong,,, you may not be.. you might have the answers.. but lets say you dont...... are you prepared to face God with such a record of destructive words about a Prophet of God?

Now, let's say I'm wrong and William Brahnam was not a Prophet..... I believed he was.. worshipping and loving Jesus the whole time.. baptized in Jesus name,, filled with the Holy Ghost and yes I show reverence to a "gift from God"....... and I get to heaven and find out he was not a Prophet.......

who do you think would have a clearer standing before God,, you or I ?

Its as sincere a question as I have ever asked....

Dr. Vaughn Branham was a false prophet that taught false doctrine which is going to be responsible for people going to Hell. If somehow he repented of his error and found mercy I will rejoice. He preached horrid lies and did a terrible injustice to the Kingdom of God I am addressing one in this post.We are commanded to try the spirits 1Jn.4:1-8 the saints at Ephesus were commended for trying those false apostles and finding them liars. Rev. 2:2
Paul named false teachers 1 Tim. 1:20 as did John in 3John.
Jesus said there would be false prophets and teacher as did the Apostles.
Branham was one of those they prophecied about.
I gave him the prophet's test in Deut, 13:1-4 and he failed.
If he repented then to God be the glory if not then God have mercy on his poor deluted soul.

[bkstokes]

Bro. Stokes... scriptures commands us not to call "unholy what God has called holy"

If anyone on this forum has done that.. it is sin..... and I am simply trying to cause people to realize that to just call a man a false prophet because you have doctrinal differences is a very dangerous thing to do

I understand your point and I do not judge WB.

I think the reason why I always address your comments is not because I have a personal agenda with you. I do not. It is because you seem to esteem the words of WB for more then what they were/are.

Look

I like A W Tozer -- I listen to his sermons and read his books. However he is not a go between me the WORD. WB seems to be your go between.

[nathan_slatter]

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies

Okay -- I'm not sure where these are located, scripturally. Could you point me directly to them because they aren't in 1 Corinthians 14?

Thanks...

Just in case you didn't see this earlier...

[Encryptus]

Of course NOT maam..... he is telling the people that God is not on a clock.. it doesnt matter to God if it is before or during service.. the message from God will be the same.... gather before the service in a prayer room... as you pray should God have a message for the church let it be spoken in tongues... let it be interpreted and then those messages can be brought before the people.. without confusing the visitors... else they would think we were all mad according to Paul

Oh heres a surprise.. before the service... people are gathered in prayer.. tongues goes forth.. someone interprets and God says

"tonight there will be a visitor amoung you,, she needs to know that I love her etc, etc... now theres a GOD SURPRISE

Actually a surprise would be "tonight there will be a visitor among you, she needs to know I hate her"... now that would be a God Surprise

Encryptus.. you missed the point....

I was saying if God spoke before the service the exact details of a visitor and he had a very specific message for them.... that would be more suprising than giving the message during the service with the visitor there.. for the visitor that God knew before they came that they would be there.. and he cared enough to tell his people about them through toungues and interpretation

Actually I got the point Stevie Ray, was just amused by the example, it would be a sad thing if church needed tongues and interpretation to be know that a visitor should made aware that God loves them.

I think you are missing the point, tongues are a sign for the unbeliever 1 Corinthians 14:22

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

:highfive

Bump again.

There is a tongues and interpretation for edifying of the church, there is also tongues as a sign to the UNBELIEVER. Just because there is corporate worship with individuals speaking in tongues does not mean there is chaos. Not does every time tongues is spoken by an individual does it require interpretation.

[Steve Epley]

Dr. Vaughn do YOU have Branham's picture or the cloud picture in your church? Jesus knows.:crazywalls

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper.. you are referring to what was allowed Pre-Pauline... God sent Paul to set the church in order... anything before that time should not be our example.. we have a perfectly laid out order by our Apostle.. the one appointed by Jesus himself to bring the church into maturity... So....... follow Peters pre-pauline example or follow the latest and more mature word on the subject from the Apostle... keep in mind Peter was an Evangelist.. he was not called to the local church as far as setting it in order.. Paul was

There wasn’t a Pre-Pauline Gospel and a Pauline Gospel. The Gospel is the Gospel and there’s only one Gospel. We see more than three people speaking in tonguess in a gathering both before Paul and after Paul. In the Corinthian letter Paul as addressing the excesses in the Corinthian church. Paul stated that speaking in tonguess in prayer was acceptable if there were no interpreter. Paul never said that man had to be quiet and go home to pray to God in tonguess. It’s about proper timing. There’s a time for individual prayer and worship…and then there’s a time for teaching and preaching. And if anyone addresses the entire congregation in tonguess it was to be at most by three and let one interpret. If there was no interpreter, they were to keep to themselves where they sit and pray to God, ideally that he provide an interpretation so the utterance could go forth no doubt, but that’s my opinion. That’s my understanding of Paul’s teachings on the subject.

If a pastor sincerely believes that Paul is applying this as a blanket ruling on all tonguess in the church gathering I may disagree, but I don’t condemn him. I am left with a few questions though seeing that I’ve never seen it done that way. Do churches that believe in these restrictions on tonguess in the church service allow for a prayer meeting before or after the service wherein saints can openly pray in tonguess? Or are they told to only do it at home? Let’s say you have 12 visitors. If you don’t have an interpreter do you refrain from praying them through to the baptism of the Holy Ghost even if they are seeking? If there is an interpreter present do you only pray three of them through that night or do you do it in staggered waves of three at a time? And then there’s the God factor…God never changes. What if God pours out the Holy Ghost on all 12 of them at the same time while the preacher is preaching and they all start talking in tonguess? Do your pastors stop preaching and order them to be quiet? If there is an interpreter present does the pastor stop preaching and order only 9 of them to be quiet and allow only three of them to pray in the Spirit?

So far this discussion has been academic and theoretical. I’m curious about the application of this idea, how does it work in your churches? Don’t tell me how it “should” work (that’s theoretics). Tell me how you guys actually “do” and implement what you’re sharing with us here. I want to make sure I’m understanding you. For all I know I’m not understanding what you’re trying to explain.

[Grasshopper]

I once knew a man who saw this in a more practical manner. He didn’t even believe it had anything to do with “speaking in languages” as we Pentecostals would interpret it. He sees it as order for the church in regards to saints who speak foreign languages. For example if a man speaks Arabic, “an unknown language”, he shouldn’t speak in a gathering unless he or another can interpret him. And there should be a limit to foreign speakers of three. If this man comes to a gathering and finds that they do not adequately understand his language he should remain silent and pray only to himself and to God. My 'ol friend sees it as down to earth practical guidance to a church in a region where people often spoke multiple languages. In his interpretation it would read:

I Corinthians 14:1-40 (modified)
{14:1} Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts,]
but rather that ye may prophesy. {14:2} For he that
speaketh in an [unknown] language speaketh not unto men,
but unto God: for no man understandeth [him;] howbeit in
the spirit he speaketh mysteries. {14:3} But he that
prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and
exhortation, and comfort. {14:4} He that speaketh in an
[unknown] language edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth
edifieth the church. {14:5} I would that ye all spake with
languages, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he
that prophesieth than he that speaketh with languages, except
he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. {14:6}
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with languages,
what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by
revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by
doctrine? {14:7} And even things without life giving sound,
whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the
sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
{14:8} For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall
prepare himself to the battle? {14:9} So likewise ye, except
ye utter by the language words easy to be understood, how
shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the
air. {14:10} There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices
in the world, and none of them [is] without signification.
{14:11} Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I
shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that
speaketh [shall be] a barbarian unto me. {14:12} Even so
ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual [gifts,] seek that
ye may excel to the edifying of the church. {14:13}
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] language
pray that he may interpret. {14:14} For if I pray in an
[unknown] language, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding
is unfruitful. {14:15} What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will
sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding
also. {14:16} Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how
shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen
at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what
thou sayest? {14:17} For thou verily givest thanks well, but
the other is not edified. {14:18} I thank my God, I speak
with languages more than ye all: {14:19} Yet in the church I
had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by
my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand
words in an [unknown] language. {14:20} Brethren, be not
children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children,
but in understanding be men. {14:21} In the law it is
written, With [men of] other languages and other lips will I
speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear
me, saith the Lord. {14:22} Wherefore languages are for a
sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but
for them which believe. {14:23} If therefore the whole
church be come together into one place, and all speak with
languages, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or
unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? {14:24} But
if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or
[one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
{14:25} And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest;
and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and
report that God is in you of a truth. {14:26} How is it then,
brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a
psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a language, hath a revelation, hath
an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
{14:27} If any man speak in an [unknown] language, [let it
be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course;
and let one interpret. {14:28} But if there be no interpreter,
let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to
himself, and to God. {14:29} Let the prophets speak two or
three, and let the other judge. {14:30} If [any thing] be
revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his
peace. {14:31} For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all
may learn, and all may be comforted. {14:32} And the
spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. {14:33}
For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in
all churches of the saints. {14:34} Let your women keep
silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to
speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as
also saith the law. {14:35} And if they will learn any thing,
let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for
women to speak in the church. {14:36} What? came the
word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
{14:37} If any man think himself to be a prophet, or
spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write
unto you are the commandments of the Lord. {14:38} But if
any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. {14:39}
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to
speak with languages. {14:40} Let all things be done decently
and in order.

I don’t agree…but I found it to be a novel interpretation. lol

[Dr. Vaughn]

I understand your point and I do not judge WB.

I think the reason why I always address your comments is not because I have a personal agenda with you. I do not. It is because you seem to esteem the words of WB for more then what they were/are.

Look

I like A W Tozer -- I listen to his sermons and read his books. However he is not a go between me the WORD. WB seems to be your go between.

Fair enough brother

[Dr. Vaughn]

Dr. Vaughn do YOU have Branham's picture or the cloud picture in your church? Jesus knows.:crazywalls

Not a one of them.. what say ye?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Grasshopper... I must tell you how refreshing it is to meet someone who is at least willing to listen.. thanks

First of all,, I have been speaking in tongues since my childhood... although I do not believe it is the INITIAL EVIDENCE.. we can argue about that later...... I definitly believe in its operation and am glad to say, I practice it daily in prayer.....

With that said,, you and I see the local gathering of believers on the first day of the week with two seperate glasses. Wheras you see it as a time of worship and praise and celebration.... I understand it to be strictly for the "perfecting, maturing and teaching of saints" and therefore there is no purpose for tongues in the local service.... because in those scheduled meetings tongues could distract a visitor who might be there to hear the gospel..... they will think we are mad.... our church demands that should someone speak in tongues,, they are more than welcome to but they bear the heavy responsibilty of obeying Pauls teachings and if there is no one there interpret they must do as Paul instructed them "pray that THEY MIGHT interpet"... and because of this have burden of scripture you can be assured if you hear someone speaking in tongues in our meetings.. there is NO DOUBT that person knowing the heavy burden they bear.. has indeed heard from God and this message will happen as it is given"

I will give you an example......about 4 weeks ago right after we had sang a few songs together as a corporate body....... we were just standing in the presence of God and a sister began to speak in tongues..... I asked God for the interpretation and it would not come... about 5 minutes passed and the church was silent as we KNOW according to scripture... we MUST have an interpretation........ and this sister had never interpreted before but I saw her sincerity as she was praying for God to give her the interpretation...

and finally, the message came forth.... I don't know all the words but it was along this line...... bear in mind,,, we have been trying to sell our current church building in a very bad real estate market" the message said "stand still, do not hurry, do not be anxious, do not try to make things happen before the time... for I the Lord will cause this property to be sold in my time, once you let go of your agendas then you will see my hand at work.... and you shall see this as soon as you release this burden to me"

of course thats not word for word.. but it is the gist...... to make a long story short,, last week a Phillipino church walked in and paid us almost twice the market value... no questions asked.. it is SOLD.......

You see,, that message had a purpose,, that sister was under a burden of scripture and it caused perfect order... no visitor thought we were mad,, it was in perfect order

but when you walk in a church service and you have people running the isles like children... screaming and shouting in convulsions.. heads jerking, necks almost being broken in ecstatic euphoria... everybody speaking in tongues at once..... it is the very thing God is not the author of Chaos

and sadly most of the time it is a pure display of flesh

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper... I must tell you how refreshing it is to meet someone who is at least willing to listen.. thanks

First of all,, I have been speaking in tongues since my childhood... although I do not believe it is the INITIAL EVIDENCE.. we can argue about that later...... I definitly believe in its operation and am glad to say, I practice it daily in prayer.....

With that said,, you and I see the local gathering of believers on the first day of the week with two seperate glasses. Wheras you see it as a time of worship and praise and celebration.... I understand it to be strictly for the "perfecting, maturing and teaching of saints" and therefore there is no purpose for tongues in the local service.... because in those scheduled meetings tongues could distract a visitor who might be there to hear the gospel..... they will think we are mad.... our church demands that should someone speak in tongues,, they are more than welcome to but they bear the heavy responsibilty of obeying Pauls teachings and if there is no one there interpret they must do as Paul instructed them "pray that THEY MIGHT interpet"... and because of this have burden of scripture you can be assured if you hear someone speaking in tongues in our meetings.. there is NO DOUBT that person knowing the heavy burden they bear.. has indeed heard from God and this message will happen as it is given"

I will give you an example......about 4 weeks ago right after we had sang a few songs together as a corporate body....... we were just standing in the presence of God and a sister began to speak in tongues..... I asked God for the interpretation and it would not come... about 5 minutes passed and the church was silent as we KNOW according to scripture... we MUST have an interpretation........ and this sister had never interpreted before but I saw her sincerity as she was praying for God to give her the interpretation...

and finally, the message came forth.... I don't know all the words but it was along this line...... bear in mind,,, we have been trying to sell our current church building in a very bad real estate market" the message said "stand still, do not hurry, do not be anxious, do not try to make things happen before the time... for I the Lord will cause this property to be sold in my time, once you let go of your agendas then you will see my hand at work.... and you shall see this as soon as you release this burden to me"

of course thats not word for word.. but it is the gist...... to make a long story short,, last week a Phillipino church walked in and paid us almost twice the market value... no questions asked.. it is SOLD.......

You see,, that message had a purpose,, that sister was under a burden of scripture and it caused perfect order... no visitor thought we were mad,, it was in perfect order

but when you walk in a church service and you have people running the isles like children... screaming and shouting in convulsions.. heads jerking, necks almost being broken in ecstatic euphoria... everybody speaking in tongues at once..... it is the very thing God is not the author of Chaos

and sadly most of the time it is a pure display of flesh

That’s cool but that didn’t answer any of my questions. Please refer to my original post to you, I had some pretty specific questions because I’m curious with how you guys do this seeing your interpretation of it.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Forgive me grasshopper..... the post is running together and its just hard for me to pick it apart point by point.. would you mind reading the post and quickly putting a bulleted list of your questions and I will be happy to address them

[jezebelslayer]

Bro...they didn't have "churches". The first church buildings in history weren't built until between 250 and 300 years later. The "church" in NT times wasn't considered a building or a place...the church was a body of people...wheresoever two or more gathered in his name...that was church. It doesn't matter if it was in Aquila's house, Nympha's house, Philemon's house, Paul's own rented quarters in Rome, under a tree, out in the field, by the riverside, hill side, or in the market place...wherever the church was gathered...that was "church".

To say that these twelve and Paul were not in "church" because they were not in a religious building or setting is to miss the most revolutionary aspect of New Testament Apostolic Christianity...it was essentially a "church without walls".

Bro Vaughn...it's impossible to argue that this was outside of the church...THEY WERE THE CHURCH.




;)

AMEN

[Praxeas]

Grasshopper.. you are referring to what was allowed Pre-Pauline... God sent Paul to set the church in order... anything before that time should not be our example.. we have a perfectly laid out order by our Apostle.. the one appointed by Jesus himself to bring the church into maturity... So....... follow Peters pre-pauline example or follow the latest and more mature word on the subject from the Apostle... keep in mind Peter was an Evangelist.. he was not called to the local church as far as setting it in order.. Paul was
Paul NEVER addressed specifically what happened before that time and forbid it...

[Praxeas]

Actually how would you know if there is no interpretation before speaking in a tongue? It says actually if there is no interpretor...a person with that gift. So of course you would have to know there is no interpretor...

Second Paul did not say don't speak in tongues in that case. He said to speak it to yourself.

We can quibble over the difference between tongues Paul speaks of and the tongues in Acts....which as far as we can see was NOT a church meeting and an interpretation for church edification but was someone receiving the Spirit for the first time
BUMP again and again for the Dr......

[Praxeas]

Forgive me grasshopper..... the post is running together and its just hard for me to pick it apart point by point.. would you mind reading the post and quickly putting a bulleted list of your questions and I will be happy to address them
It helps if you use the quote button then separate each point by a open and close quote

[Dr. Vaughn]

Paul NEVER addressed specifically what happened before that time and forbid it...

Now brother that is weak...... why would Paul cause more division? He simply did what he had to do... brought correction to an immature church.. and laid the principles upon which NT church services should be like.....

[SavedLou]

That's not what Paul said. Paul warned them not to forbid speaking in tongues. The point was that there was to be order "in the church". A time of personal prayer, praise, and worship prior to teaching where people are free to pray in tongues us perfectly fine. But eventually they were to remain quiet and allow the prophets to speak and teach. No more than three elders were to do this at a time and they each had to respect each other and wait in turn if another spoke. As they dialogued with the church body Paul didn't want anyone interrupting in tongues without an interpretation.

Tell me...if Paul commanded that tongues only be used with an interpreter and they were to be limited to three...how many are speaking in tongues and prophesying here...and where's the interpreter????

Acts 19:1-7
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7And all the men were about twelve.

Wow...Paul must have forgotten his own instructions! LOLOLOL

this was exactly what i was thinking about...this was actually the main scripture that made the lightbulb go on in my head when i was searching for more truth/praying for direction. i felt as if this passage was talking specifically to me back then. i also argued the no tongues without an interpreter thing until i read this passage. here's something else that i realized...the main people that preach there has to be an interpreter at all times are the very ones who have NO tongues being spoken at all. paul also said "i thank God that i speak with tongues more than anyone".

[Praxeas]

Now brother that is weak...... why would Paul cause more division? He simply did what he had to do... brought correction to an immature church.. and laid the principles upon which NT church services should be like.....
You did not refute my statement. You just said that was weak and asked a logical fallacy of a complex question. Do you still beat your wife?

He brought correction...nobody said he did not sir. Once again you are attempting to put words in my mouth. I agree he brought correction. But that does not prove YOUR assertion that he CHANGED anything that was done prior to the NT church. What he did was correct their abuse of the spiritual gifts.

[SavedLou]

oh and to add to a comment that this was only acceptable b/c they weren't in a church....um the church is not merely a building or a service. WE are the church. if the rules for the church were not to speak in tongues at all w/out an interpreter then it would have also applied to these 12 men who were ALL speaking in tongues together while receiving the HG for the first time.

[Praxeas]

Actually how would you know if there is no interpretation before speaking in a tongue? It says actually if there is no interpretor...a person with that gift. So of course you would have to know there is no interpretor...

Second Paul did not say don't speak in tongues in that case. He said to speak it to yourself.

We can quibble over the difference between tongues Paul speaks of and the tongues in Acts....which as far as we can see was NOT a church meeting and an interpretation for church edification but was someone receiving the Spirit for the first time
BUMP BUMP BUMP

[1Corinth2v4]

This is the Biblical guide for a proper NT church service that would be pleasing to the Lord....

#1 - No speaking in tongues were to be allowed without an audible interpretation:

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Sounds like a Pentecostal service to me............ everyone speaking in tongues at the same time all over the buildings or around the Altar.....Paul rebukes you and commands the churches of God not to participate in such childishness

# 2 - There should be Prophesying - is there Prophesying in each of your services in Pentecost?

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

# 3 - Revealing of the secrets of peoples hearts should be revealed in the services - this is what Bro. Branham did and the Pentecostals said it was witchcraft --

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a Doctrine

# 6 - There should be very limited speaking in tongues

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a tongue

# 7 - Everything done in the service should be for the maturing of the body

Let all things be done unto edifying.

# 8 - No more than three messages in toungues should EVER be given, thus heavily discouraging the Pentecostal over use of tongues -

If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

# 9 - There should never be tongues without an interpretation

and let one interpret.

#10 - There should be silence rather than tongues if there is no one used in the gift of interpretation

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

#11 - There should be words of knowledge and wisdom.. and these should be judged before presented to the church

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

#12 - You should be still and hold your peace

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

#13 - The church is the place for learning

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

#14 - There should be no out of control emotions... and the thinking that God has taken over you and you cannot help yourself

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

#15 - There should be nothing that would look like confusion, nothing out of control, nothing fleshly

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#16 - The service should be a peaceful setting

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#17 - There should be no women bringing forth the Word of God

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

#18 - Finally, nothing should ever be fleshly or demonstrative -- nothing should be out of godly order

Let all things be done decently and in order

If your services do not operate by the above guide given to us by Paul...are we in rebellion to Gods Word?

Please!

Paul also instructed that we greet our brethren with a holy kiss.

Do you greet all your brethren with a kiss? If not, you're also found in rebellion!

[Dr. Vaughn]

this was exactly what i was thinking about...this was actually the main scripture that made the lightbulb go on in my head when i was searching for more truth/praying for direction. i felt as if this passage was talking specifically to me back then. i also argued the no tongues without an interpreter thing until i read this passage. here's something else that i realized...the main people that preach there has to be an interpreter at all times are the very ones who have NO tongues being spoken at all. paul also said "i thank God that i speak with tongues more than anyone".

Brother,, this is BEFORE the PAULINE EPISTLES,, this is before Church Order was established.. this even happened in the infancy of the church.. Paul brought us into maturity... away from Baby steps.. away from chaos.....

Let me ask you this.. Lets say you had just founded a church

The people are all excited... there's lots of emotions,,, and people are actually going out and witnessing and embarassing the church by forcing themselves on people.... and you let it go for now because they are babies

but then you realize it is time for them to mature some.. so you bring order.....

Now, is everything they done before you brought order... the guide you want them to go by.. or the ones most recently set?

Same logic applies here.. Peter was an Evangelist... this was not a "called gathering of the local church" and then much later Paul comes in to bring ORDER to Gods church...

So, what should our guide be? This Pre-Pauline event... in the infancy of the church... or the last instructions we have from our Apostle?

[Praxeas]

oh and to add to a comment that this was only acceptable b/c they weren't in a church....um the church is not merely a building or a service. WE are the church. if the rules for the church were not to speak in tongues at all w/out an interpreter then it would have also applied to these 12 men who were ALL speaking in tongues together while receiving the HG for the first time.
Amen. I have been making that point now for a while, but he keeps blowing off my posts. He has a limited view of what it means to gather as a church......but the fact is the bible says where two or more are gathered "there will I be in the midst"...Jesus did not say "if they are gathered ONLY for the purpose of teaching lessons"....

Churches gathered for many reasons according to the word. They prayed. They taught. They used the gifts to edify. They worshipped. They prayed for each other. They ministered to visitors or unbelievers. And they even made important church decisions like doctrinal issues and excommunicating a member

[Dr. Vaughn]

You did not refute my statement. You just said that was weak and asked a logical fallacy of a complex question. Do you still beat your wife?

He brought correction...nobody said he did not sir. Once again you are attempting to put words in my mouth. I agree he brought correction. But that does not prove YOUR assertion that he CHANGED anything that was done prior to the NT church. What he did was correct their abuse of the spiritual gifts.

Sir,, are you exclaiming that he should have said "now listen, the way Peter was doing it was immature.. it was wrong.. let me correct you" how silly.. he would never have done that.. but he did in his own way show a more perfect way that our services should attain unto

[Dr. Vaughn]

Amen. I have been making that point now for a while, but he keeps blowing off my posts. He has a limited view of what it means to gather as a church......but the fact is the bible says where two or more are gathered "there will I be in the midst"...Jesus did not say "if they are gathered ONLY for the purpose of teaching lessons"....

Churches gathered for many reasons according to the word. They prayed. They taught. They used the gifts to edify. They worshipped. They prayed for each other. They ministered to visitors or unbelievers. And they even made important church decisions like doctrinal issues and excommunicating a member

Praxaeus, you can play on words all you wish.. of course we are all the church.... but when you go to church this Sunday... are you not at the GATHERING of the SAINTS? That is the CHURCH I am referring to.

In the NT we see many instances of them gathering on the first day of the week for their weekly instructions in the WORD.. we see nothing more than the teaching of Gods Word.. the doctrines......

again in perfect order.. he game the five fold minsitry not for the HYPING of the SAINTS or the REACHING of the SINNER but for one purpose "the perfecting of the saints"

I'll never know why we use the local sanctuary as the place to reach sinners.. that is sooo backwards... the local church in the NT was NEVER USED for the evangelization of sinners.. but rather the maturing and training of the saints.. so the saints my go out and "do the work of the ministry" which is the spreading of the gospel

[SavedLou]

Brother,, this is BEFORE the PAULINE EPISTLES,, this is before Church Order was established.. this even happened in the infancy of the church.. Paul brought us into maturity... away from Baby steps.. away from chaos.....

Let me ask you this.. Lets say you had just founded a church

The people are all excited... there's lots of emotions,,, and people are actually going out and witnessing and embarassing the church by forcing themselves on people.... and you let it go for now because they are babies

but then you realize it is time for them to mature some.. so you bring order.....

Now, is everything they done before you brought order... the guide you want them to go by.. or the ones most recently set?

Same logic applies here.. Peter was an Evangelist... this was not a "called gathering of the local church" and then much later Paul comes in to bring ORDER to Gods church...

So, what should our guide be? This Pre-Pauline event... in the infancy of the church... or the last instructions we have from our Apostle?

first of all it's sister, not brother :) but to answer your question, of COURSE we must have order and start to mature. but in my opinion paul's directions in corinthians were to the church there who were not doing things orderly or as they had already been established throughout the NT. the upper room experience of 120 people receiving the HG, speaking in tongues as a worship experience or those praying to themselves in tongues is totally different than 1 or 2 giving a clear, direct message to the church. and when THIS is done at our church, yes of course there is an interpreter.

[SavedLou]

Amen. I have been making that point now for a while, but he keeps blowing off my posts. He has a limited view of what it means to gather as a church......but the fact is the bible says where two or more are gathered "there will I be in the midst"...Jesus did not say "if they are gathered ONLY for the purpose of teaching lessons"....

Churches gathered for many reasons according to the word. They prayed. They taught. They used the gifts to edify. They worshipped. They prayed for each other. They ministered to visitors or unbelievers. And they even made important church decisions like doctrinal issues and excommunicating a member

exactly...and who's to say there wasn't a crowd of witnesses around the 12 men that day.

[Praxeas]

Brother,, this is BEFORE the PAULINE EPISTLES,, this is before Church Order was established.. this even happened in the infancy of the church.. Paul brought us into maturity... away from Baby steps.. away from chaos....
Baloney. What you are doing is taking the Corinthian example and ASSUMING this was occuring in ALL churches and Paul was sent to begin a new thing not done in all the churches....church order.

In fact that is false. Paul was not sent for THAT reason. He was sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. He was their apostle and so he wrote letters to each to help them. In one such instance he had to address the Corinthian church because of their excesses, abuses and tolerance of an individual found in sin. That was specific to the Corinthian church, not to all churches.

The ORDER he brought TO them was on their abuses of the gifts of the Spirit. Everyone wanted to stand up and give a message. But clearly not everyone can. So Paul said let it be by the most of 3.

I asked this already but you blew me off. How would someone know if there is no intepretor before hand? They would not. What you are not seeing is that they had several members that could give a message and they would be all standing and giving a message one after the other.....by the time there were three messages and no interpretation it becomes clear that there is no one to give an interpretation so anyone with a message should speak that to themselves so the service can continue on. The purpose of those tongues were meant to be shared by interpretation....

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
1Co 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.

If someone is giving a message in tongues and nobody interprets after giving a message and by the time 2 or 3 have done so, if by that time there is no intepretation then they need to stop giving messages and move on.

That was not happening. Instead everyone was giving messages ...more than three of them...and it just went on and on. Nobody but the speakers was being edified as a result.

1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Yet if each one prophesied then all the hearers would be edified

1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Paul does NOT forbid praying with the spirit
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here Paul is essentially saying you can pray with the spirit but you need to pray with the mind also so others know when to say AMEN

1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Here is what Paul is trying to prevent
1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

The WHOLE church to speak in tongues and there are outsiders. Imagine now...church gathers. One person stands up and speaks in a tongue...no interpretation in a language they all understand. Then another stands and speaks..and another...and another...and another...pretty soon the entire church just about has done this. Being a Pentecostal if I walked into a service like that and nobody was edifying the hearers in their own language I would have a problem too. From what Paul is saying THAT is what was happening.

The order here was about them all speaking in tongues and not just one by one....and nobody edifying in a language they understood....

And prophesying all at the same time and not rather one by one. One that receives a word should wait for the other to finish giving the word instead of interrupting.

[WyoPastor]

Baloney. What you are doing is taking the Corinthian example and ASSUMING this was occuring in ALL churches and Paul was sent to begin a new thing not done in all the churches....church order.

In fact that is false. Paul was not sent for THAT reason. He was sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. He was their apostle and so he wrote letters to each to help them. In one such instance he had to address the Corinthian church because of their excesses, abuses and tolerance of an individual found in sin. That was specific to the Corinthian church, not to all churches.

The ORDER he brought TO them was on their abuses of the gifts of the Spirit. Everyone wanted to stand up and give a message. But clearly not everyone can. So Paul said let it be by the most of 3.

I asked this already but you blew me off. How would someone know if there is no intepretor before hand? They would not. What you are not seeing is that they had several members that could give a message and they would be all standing and giving a message one after the other.....by the time there were three messages and no interpretation it becomes clear that there is no one to give an interpretation so anyone with a message should speak that to themselves so the service can continue on. The purpose of those tongues were meant to be shared by interpretation....

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
1Co 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.

If someone is giving a message in tongues and nobody interprets after giving a message and by the time 2 or 3 have done so, if by that time there is no intepretation then they need to stop giving messages and move on.

That was not happening. Instead everyone was giving messages ...more than three of them...and it just went on and on. Nobody but the speakers was being edified as a result.

1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Yet if each one prophesied then all the hearers would be edified

1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Paul does NOT forbid praying with the spirit
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here Paul is essentially saying you can pray with the spirit but you need to pray with the mind also so others know when to say AMEN

1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Here is what Paul is trying to prevent
1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

The WHOLE church to speak in tongues and there are outsiders. Imagine now...church gathers. One person stands up and speaks in a tongue...no interpretation in a language they all understand. Then another stands and speaks..and another...and another...and another...pretty soon the entire church just about has done this. Being a Pentecostal if I walked into a service like that and nobody was edifying the hearers in their own language I would have a problem too. From what Paul is saying THAT is what was happening.

The order here was about them all speaking in tongues and not just one by one....and nobody edifying in a language they understood....

And prophesying all at the same time and not rather one by one. One that receives a word should wait for the other to finish giving the word instead of interrupting.

Amen

[Praxeas]

oh and to add to a comment that this was only acceptable b/c they weren't in a church....um the church is not merely a building or a service. WE are the church. if the rules for the church were not to speak in tongues at all w/out an interpreter then it would have also applied to these 12 men who were ALL speaking in tongues together while receiving the HG for the first time.
Let me add with this and what you pointed out about the 120. I mentioned this to the Dr but he denies this was a church gathering....never mind they were the church and they were gathered.

They were praying together in one place and in one mind (unity)...sounds like church to me. And the inspired word says they were ALL filled and spoke in tongues....there was obviously no interpretation since the non-believers were confused as to what this meant, However this was more than three too....God filled them....God made that happen....as the Spirit gives utterance....Jesus TOLD them to wait for this to happen....IF the good Dr is right then God is the author of confusion and disorder....

I don't think he understands Acts or 1Cor and the point Paul was making

[papapraiz]

Respectfully, It appears to me that the early church met daily in the temple and from house to house.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. KJV

[Praxeas]

Praxaeus, you can play on words all you wish.. of course we are all the church.... but when you go to church this Sunday... are you not at the GATHERING of the SAINTS? That is the CHURCH I am referring to.

Please. Praxeas. Not Prasaeus. I am not playing on words. Second I never denied that on SUNDAY we are a gathering of the church. However we ALSO gather on Monday for a prayer meeting. We ALSO gather on Fri for a bible study and fellowship. We ALSO gather on Wed nights for bible study.

We gather...that is the point. Church MEETINGS are when the church MEETS to accomplish some purpose germane to the church. You want to limited that to strictly and ONLY what you have been asserting. But we can see from scriptures that they also gathered to PRAY and other things. You can't see the forest for the trees...as it were....you are looking through "Dr. Vaughn's" Rose colored glasses....you look at one instance in Acts where Paul was teaching all night long....you formed an argument from silence there because Luke never mentions if they worshiped or sang songs or whatever...

Then you assumed "that is what church should be like when they gather together and so the OTHER gatherings when they worshiped or prayed was not actually a church service"

That is what you are doing.

In the NT we see many instances of them gathering on the first day of the week for their weekly instructions in the WORD.. we see nothing more than the teaching of Gods Word.. the doctrines......
Again argument from silence.

Again, you ASSUME that a gathering on the first day of the week (actually we see that only once in Acts...where do you get the many from?) can be the ONLY time a church can gather and be considered a church meeting.

ASSUME....I am glad I am not assuming with you because then I would be the "me" in ASSUME. You have ASSUMED a lot of things here. You have selectively IGNORED the other times the church gathers by arbitration because it does not fit your paradigm.

again in perfect order.. he game the five fold minsitry not for the HYPING of the SAINTS or the REACHING of the SINNER but for one purpose "the perfecting of the saints"
He gave them to perfect the saints....excuse me but where did I or anyone else deny that? You keep repeating this ad nauseum as though someone disagreed but nobody did. Thus my assertion that you are attempting to put words in our mouths and form a strawman argument....Intellectual dishonestly is not what I would expect from a Dr....

Second all this tells us is the PURPOSE of the 5 fold ministry. It does NOT tell us that there should be no worship or praise or prayer or anything else in a church service. Nobody is denying the church needs perfecting OR edifying.

I'll never know why we use the local sanctuary as the place to reach sinners.. that is sooo backwards... the local church in the NT was NEVER USED for the evangelization of sinners.. but rather the maturing and training of the saints.. so the saints my go out and "do the work of the ministry" which is the spreading of the gospel

That is interesting when you consider that your argument relied heavily on Paul speaking to the Corinthians and Paul ALLOWED for there being visitors...the unlearned which assumes the uninitiated...INTO their meetings! WOW...are you keeping track of your own arguments here?

Second NOBODY here denies that the saints should be perfected in the local church meeting and then go out and evangelize....Once again you ASSUME way WAY too much and them FORCE it on us as though we said that or we do that or we agree. That is intellectual dishonesty.

[Praxeas]

Respectfully, It appears to me that the early church met daily in the temple and from house to house.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. KJV
They did...I pointed that out as well....and what were they doing? Praise God, eating their meat and breaking bread.

They gathered for many reasons. They also gathered NOT just in a house or in the temple but in the streets to evangelize and also in synagogues

[LadyRev]

This is the Biblical guide for a proper NT church service that would be pleasing to the Lord....

#1 - No speaking in tongues were to be allowed without an audible interpretation:

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Sounds like a Pentecostal service to me............ everyone speaking in tongues at the same time all over the buildings or around the Altar.....Paul rebukes you and commands the churches of God not to participate in such childishness

# 2 - There should be Prophesying - is there Prophesying in each of your services in Pentecost?

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

# 3 - Revealing of the secrets of peoples hearts should be revealed in the services - this is what Bro. Branham did and the Pentecostals said it was witchcraft --

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a Doctrine

# 6 - There should be very limited speaking in tongues

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a tongue

# 7 - Everything done in the service should be for the maturing of the body

Let all things be done unto edifying.

# 8 - No more than three messages in toungues should EVER be given, thus heavily discouraging the Pentecostal over use of tongues -

If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

# 9 - There should never be tongues without an interpretation

and let one interpret.

#10 - There should be silence rather than tongues if there is no one used in the gift of interpretation

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

#11 - There should be words of knowledge and wisdom.. and these should be judged before presented to the church

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

#12 - You should be still and hold your peace

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

#13 - The church is the place for learning

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

#14 - There should be no out of control emotions... and the thinking that God has taken over you and you cannot help yourself

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

#15 - There should be nothing that would look like confusion, nothing out of control, nothing fleshly

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#16 - The service should be a peaceful setting

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#17 - There should be no women bringing forth the Word of God

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

#18 - Finally, nothing should ever be fleshly or demonstrative -- nothing should be out of godly order

Let all things be done decently and in order

If your services do not operate by the above guide given to us by Paul...are we in rebellion to Gods Word?


Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the above is one of the finest examples of "cut and paste the scriptures" that I have ever read.

Someone should create an award for this. A graphic to display proudly here at AFF.

[Dr. Vaughn]

first of all it's sister, not brother :) but to answer your question, of COURSE we must have order and start to mature. but in my opinion paul's directions in corinthians were to the church there who were not doing things orderly or as they had already been established throughout the NT. the upper room experience of 120 people receiving the HG, speaking in tongues as a worship experience or those praying to themselves in tongues is totally different than 1 or 2 giving a clear, direct message to the church. and when THIS is done at our church, yes of course there is an interpreter.

Wait a second Lou, I think perhaps you and I have a total different understanding of the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost....

You seem to be implying that this looked like a "modern day" Pentecostal service with everyone standing around praising God in unknown tongues all at the same time"

My understanding is that NOTHING like that happened at all.....

If we look closely we see that these people were sent to Jerusalem to preach the gospel to the NATIONS OF THE WORLD,,, beginning at Jerusalem... this was an impossible feat for 120 people to reach the known world.. and with all the language barriers it just could not be done....

They asked Jesus.. How are we going to fulfill this comission.. he told them to go to Jerusalem and wait for the "ability from on high"... which they did..

Once the Holy Ghost delivered this ability to them they immediatly began speaking " in other foreign languages" THEY WERE NOT SPEAKING IN PENTECOSTAL STYLE tongues,.... as we see in the Pentecostal churches today....

Immediately they began telling the "wonderful works of God in every known languages"

They were not IN PRAISE talking to God,, they were TELLING THE WORKS OF GOD in foreign languages.....

Paul tells us that if someone is speaking in tongues they were speaking unto God... these people at Pentecost were not speaking to God, they were speaking to MEN about the wonderful works of God in earthly foreign languages

[Dr. Vaughn]

LadyRev.. is there any of it NOT SCRIPTURE? Isn't all scripture given for our correction?

[Praxeas]

Bro. Eply,, the fact that sinners love your music should tell you that the music of Pentecost is geared to the flesh... it is entertainment.... all flesh loves great music.... rythym and beats.... and fleshly talent
lol....so if a sinner comes in and says "I hate your music and your preaching and I am never coming back" you'd feel successful?

A sinner is saying she loved the worship...and for the Dr that is a bad thing. When I first came to a Pentecostal church service I LOVED the service....I loved it so much I was crying...I never wanted to leave! I went to an alter and repented of my sins and was then baptized in Jesus name....but the good Dr calls that fleshly...so sad

[Dr. Vaughn]

lol....so if a sinner comes in and says "I hate your music and your preaching and I am never coming back" you'd feel successful?

A sinner is saying she loved the worship...and for the Dr that is a bad thing. When I first came to a Pentecostal church service I LOVED the service....I loved it so much I was crying...I never wanted to leave! I went to an alter and repented of my sins and was then baptized in Jesus name....but the good Dr calls that fleshly...so sad

First of all brother... the SPIRIT should have drawn you not emotional music that appeals to the flesh...... you could have been saved in the preferred method outside the church and then been brought in for your Christian training

[Praxeas]

If we look closely we see that these people were sent to Jerusalem to preach the gospel to the NATIONS OF THE WORLD,,, beginning at Jerusalem... this was an impossible feat for 120 people to reach the known world.. and with all the language barriers it just could not be done...
They were SENT there to WAIT for the promise of the Father and then to preach repentance and remission of sins. But the point is they were gathered together. It was a church gathering. This goes against your asserted paradigm of what church gatherings are ONLY for.

They asked Jesus.. How are we going to fulfill this comission.. he told them to go to Jerusalem and wait for the "ability from on high"... which they did..
They ASKED that? what verse was that again?

Once the Holy Ghost delivered this ability to them they immediatly began speaking " in other foreign languages" THEY WERE NOT SPEAKING IN PENTECOSTAL STYLE tongues,.... as we see in the Pentecostal churches today....
they were ALL speaking in tongues....perhaps AT the same time...which is UNLIKE what Paul told the Corinthians to do..you have a contradiction there if you are right in your interpretations. Additionally they were NOT preaching the gospel in tongues to them....if they were there would be no reason for Peter to stand up and preach a gospel message

Immediately they began telling the "wonderful works of God in every known languages"
Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs — we hear them speaking in our own languages about the great deeds God has done!"

Yes....you know what that is? That is HIGH PRAISE!
sa 12:4 And you will say in that day: "Give thanks to the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the peoples, proclaim that his name is exalted.
Isa 12:5 "Sing praises to the LORD, for he has done gloriously; let this be made known in all the earth.

They were not IN PRAISE talking to God,, they were TELLING THE WORKS OF GOD in foreign languages.....

There is no verse that says they were standing there conversing with these others in their own language. Tongues according to Paul...the verses YOU raised as an issue....is OUR spirit talking to God. It just so happens because these languages were in the language of the people they heard them praising God in the Spirit....but Peter STILL had to preach to them the gospel

Paul tells us that if someone is speaking in tongues they were speaking unto God... these people at Pentecost were not speaking to God, they were speaking to MEN about the wonderful works of God in earthly foreign languages
Then is Paul a liar? It says they were ALL filled and began to speak in tongues...speak in tongues...They were SPEAKING in tongues. That is YOUR spirit praying to God according to Paul.

Act 10:45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
Act 10:46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
Act 10:47 "No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Act 10:48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.

[Rico]

First of all brother... the SPIRIT should have drawn you not emotional music that appeals to the flesh...... you could have been saved in the preferred method outside the church and then been brought in for your Christian training

Have you stopped to consider it was the Spirit drawing him, via the music? Is God not capable of using praise music to His benefit? Frankly, I don't care if God draws them using the taking up of the offering. The important thing is that people be drawn to God.

[Praxeas]

First of all brother... the SPIRIT should have drawn you not emotional music that appeals to the flesh...... you could have been saved in the preferred method outside the church and then been brought in for your Christian training
Uh, no First of all brother...the Spirit DID draw me there. The music was anointed brother. It did NOT appeal to my flesh. And no "could have been saved" I was saved!

Second if all we need is to allow the Spirit, then there is no need for teaching or preaching. Sorry Brother but you are way off base. Those songs spoke to my heart because they were INSPIRED and ANOINTED As did the preaching that went forth that day. No flesh there Sir.

[Praxeas]

Have you stopped to consider it was the Spirit drawing him, via the music? Is God not capable of using praise music to His benefit? Frankly, I don't care if God draws them using the taking up of the offering. The important thing is that people be drawn to God.
No he does not stop to consider that. He can't see the forest for the trees.

[Rico]

No he does not stop to consider that. He can't see the forest for the trees.

It seems to me like He's locked God up into a box, only allowing Him to move when he thinks it's appropriate, based on his faulty logic. :crazywalls

[Dr. Vaughn]

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The scriptures speak for themselves.. at Pentecost they were TELLING the works of God... the largest missionary endeavor in history... and then Peter..... speaks to the unbelievers collectivly to make plain unto them what they were seeing....

but this was NOT A PENTECOSAL style gathering... no speaking in tongues

Paul said that NO MAN WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD them had they been speaking in tongues... argue with the book

[Dr. Vaughn]

It seems to me like He's locked God up into a box, only allowing Him to move when he thinks it's appropriate, based on his faulty logic. :crazywalls

It seems you might have forgotten he likes boxes,... ark of the covenant

[Praxeas]

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The scriptures speak for themselves.. at Pentecost they were TELLING the works of God... the largest missionary endeavor in history... and then Peter..... speaks to the unbelievers collectivly to make plain unto them what they were seeing....

but this was NOT A PENTECOSAL style gathering... no speaking in tongues

Paul said that NO MAN WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD them had they been speaking in tongues... argue with the book
The scriptures DO speak for themselves. They were praising God in tongues...languages they did not know but others there did.

It was NOT just someone teaching a lesson to perfect the saints. This was a church gathering which blows your limited paradigm of what can or should always and only happen in a church service

[Praxeas]

It seems you might have forgotten he likes boxes,... ark of the covenant
No smiley face but I am assuming this was meant to be funny.....surely you understood what Rico means by box....

[Rico]

It seems you might have forgotten he likes boxes,... ark of the covenant

He broke out of that box a long time ago. Stop trying to put Him back in.

[Dr. Vaughn]

We are the new boxes.. but still a box..... the argument is pointless.. but it was cute for a few minutes anyhow

[Rico]

We are the new boxes.. but still a box..... the argument is pointless.. but it was cute for a few minutes anyhow

Glad you thought it was cute, but I wasn't kidding. You've made up your mind on how God does things and anything that doesn't fit into that "box" is contrary to sound scripture (according to you).

[Dr. Vaughn]

The scriptures DO speak for themselves. They were praising God in tongues...languages they did not know but others there did.

It was NOT just someone teaching a lesson to perfect the saints. This was a church gathering which blows your limited paradigm of what can or should always and only happen in a church service

Praxaes.. please show me where they were praising God in tongues...... I am waiting for that scripture....

The tongues were for one purpose.. evangelism...... thats it.....

They were commanded to reach all nations.. on this ONE DAY in Jerusalem all nations would gather for Pentecost..... this was the opportunity to reach every nation with the gospel..... this was the purpose of tongues... not for it to look like some Holy Ghost campmeeting..... it just wasnt the case

They heard ALL OF THEM telling the works of God,, this is Evangelism.....

Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

They heard them ALL not just Peter telling the WORKS OF GOD,, these people were not in PRAISE.. they were in Evangelism with a supernatural ability to witness in other languages.....

First evidence of the Holy Ghost... and ye shall be witnesses when the Holy Ghost comes upon you.. and this is EXACLY what they did....

Please show me the word PRAISE or anything close to it in Acts 2

[Dr. Vaughn]

Glad you thought it was cute, but I wasn't kidding. You've made up your mind on how God does things and anything that doesn't fit into that "box" is contrary to sound scripture (according to you).

Actually I didnt make up my mind on how God does things.. I read it in his words.. and in all of those words in the NT I cant ever find him doing ANYTHINg that looked remotely Pentecostal

[Rico]

Actually I didnt make up my mind on how God does things.. I read it in his words.. and in all of those words in the NT I cant ever find him doing ANYTHINg that looked remotely Pentecostal

Where were you when you received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues for the first time?

[Dr. Vaughn]

We were having Bible Study in our home... and they were teaching that if you repented and were baptized in Jesus Name that you would receive the Holy Ghost... so I repent ask to be baptized in our tub right them.... and I received the Holy Ghost just as promised.... I didn't actually speak in unknown tongues till several years later... but I obeyed Acts 2:38 and according to that promise,... I received the Holy Ghost that night

[Dr. Vaughn]

Keep reading Prax.. its just not there

[LadyRev]

LadyRev.. is there any of it NOT SCRIPTURE? Isn't all scripture given for our correction?

All of it is scripture and certainly all scripture is given for our correction. However, we can't simply pull certain verses out and make doctrines out of them without taking other scripture and context into consideration.

The Catholics took scripture that states "blessed art thou among women" and made a god out of Mary.

[Dr. Vaughn]

LadyRev, if you will research.. nothing was taken out of context.. I took the entire series of verses in their perfect chronological order.. nothing was taken out of anything.... it is the entirity of the chapter.... how could it be taken out of context when it was quoted in the exact order it was written in?

[Rico]

All of it is scripture and certainly all scripture is given for our correction. However, we can't simply pull certain verses out and make doctrines out of them without taking other scripture and context into consideration.

The Catholics took scripture that states "blessed art thou among women" and made a god out of Mary.

Sister, you are a woman preacher. Therefore, you are disqualified from commenting. ;)

[Dr. Vaughn]

Sister, you are a woman preacher. Therefore, you are disqualified from commenting. ;)

Never,,, I always honor my brothers and sister whether I agree with them or not,, her true Spirit will show..... she is more than welcome in any conversation I am having.......

[Rico]

Never,,, I always honor my brothers and sister whether I agree with them or not,, her true Spirit will show..... she is more than welcome in any conversation I am having.......

*GASP* What would Paul say? What if she accidentally teaches you something? It's not worth the risk, DV. It's better for her to remain silent.

[Dr. Vaughn]

RICO you operate in a Spirit of division it seems.. I am being gracious to our sister... we are not in a church,, she has no position of authority over me.... it is a free course discussion.. please quit trying to make enemies out of people

[Rico]

RICO you operate in a Spirit of division it seems.. I am being gracious to our sister... we are not in a church,, she has no position of authority over me.... it is a free course discussion.. please quit trying to make enemies out of people

You are the one with a strict interpretation of what is and what isn't orderly. LR is a bonified lady preacher. Women aren't supposed to be teaching men, so entering into a conversation with her would be highly out of order because you might actually learn something from her. You either believe what you believe or you don't believe it. Which is it gonna be?

[Dr. Vaughn]

RICO - Priscilla was allowed to have a conversation with men with her husband present about the things of God,,, she was not allowed to PREACH in the local church setting.. this sister and I are having a conversation.. she is in no authority over me whatsoever as she would be if she were preaching the WORD OF GOD to me

[Dr. Vaughn]

LR is a bonified lady preacher

Thats an Oxymoron, there is no such thing

[1Corinth2v4]

Vaughn,

I know your kind, which is sad to say the least.

Questions you can't answer you just avoid. I can see the ignorance, and lack of knowledge through the facade of your temperamental child-like attitude and knowledge!


When you capture the courage you lack, address me and we'll dialog.

Until then....practice...practice.


Good Day.

[Rico]

Vaughn,

I know your kind, which is sad to say the least.

Questions you can't answer you just avoid. I can see the ignorance, and lack of knowledge through the facade of your temperamental child like attitude and knowledge!


When you capture the courage you lack, address me and we'll dialog.

Until then....practice...practice.


Good Day.

He has a degree in psychology. This is all a game. You know how them psychological types like to play mind games.

[1Corinth2v4]

He has a degree in psychology.

He only possesses a Ph.D.? :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

[Dr. Vaughn]

He only possesses a Ph.D.? :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

With a minor in Christian Psychology.... and last time I checked a Ph.D. wasn't an easy acomplishment

[CC1]

With a minor in Christian Psychology.... and last time I checked a Ph.D. wasn't an easy acomplishment

As I recall Rev. Moon had quite a few well educated people high in the ranks of the Unification Church.

That did not mean squat when it came to his doctrine.

I highly value and respect education but it is no guarantee a person will have a correct theological view.

[Dr. Vaughn]

As I recall Rev. Moon had quite a few well educated people high in the ranks of the Unification Church.

That did not mean squat when it came to his doctrine.

I highly value and respect education but it is no guarantee a person will have a correct theological view.

What is a correct theological view? your views

You do realize that on other forums I frequent they make as much fun of you guys for not holding to Orthodox Christianity.... they treat you like you treat the Branham followers.. nasty..... to them your views are heretical

So who has the correct theological views?

[ehudslefthand]

“Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.”(Proverbs 13:10)

I have just joined yesterday and have yet to see the Good Dr. answer several questions raised by many and avoid some very intersting posts, when i figure out how to quote each one avoided i will repost them.


BTW William Branams followers tried to raise him from the grave on the third day and quoye him like they do the Bible, i would be very careful messing with his vomit.

Dr Vaughn said he did not speak in tongues for two years after he was Baptized, if you do not speak in tongues you did not have the Holy Ghost until you did, being anointed by God and Having the Holy Ghost are two different things.

Just because you went down in the Water in Jesus name does not mean you automatically get the Holy Ghost when you come up out of the water.....“Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. And there was great joy in that city. But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”(Acts 8:5-12)

Hey Dr, when did this whole town Get the Holy Ghost?????

“Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:”(Acts 8:13-15)

Some people never learn........ “(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)”
(Acts 8:16)

When Has God changed this? There are Only two ways biblically one gets the Holy Ghost, when it falls and through the laying on of hands.“Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”

“And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

I spake in tongues when i Got the Holy Ghost

And everybody else i seen got the Holy Ghost spake in other tongues as the spirit gives them utterance.:bliss:bliss:bliss

In Christ

ELH

PS Hey Prax, long time no see.:happydance
(Acts 19:6)
(Acts 8:17)

[Dr. Vaughn]

So, Acts 2:38 should have read like this?

Repent & Be Baptized and then sometimes in the future you will receive the Holy Ghost

[Rico]

So, Acts 2:38 should have read like this?

Repent & Be Baptized and then sometimes in the future you will receive the Holy Ghost

I repented and it was years later before I received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. It was only a short time after that that I got baptized in Jesus name. There's no set time frame for all these things to happen.

However, most of the people you have been conversing with on this Holy Ghost issue believe that the initial evidence of someone having received the Holy Ghost is speaking in tongues. There are plenty of others around here who believe that someone receives the HG at the moment they repent. My guess is that your Branham beliefs have played a role in them not coming to your defense for fear of giving the impression that they agree with you on this Branham stuff.

[Steve Epley]

So, Acts 2:38 should have read like this?

Repent & Be Baptized and then sometimes in the future you will receive the Holy Ghost

SHALL does NOT say immediately.

[Dr. Vaughn]

It was immediate all through the NT at every baptism... Cornelius... Eunich why not now?

[Rico]

It was immediate all through the NT at every baptism... Cornelius... Eunich why not now?

Cornelius received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues before he got baptized.

[Praxeas]

Praxaes.. please show me where they were praising God in tongues...... I am waiting for that scripture....

I already did. I quoted you using the quote butten. I then pointed out what the scriptures said that they were speaking of God's wonderful works.....that is praise. I gave scripture to show it...I then pointed out Peter preached the gospel. They did NOT preach the gospel in tongues. Please PLEASE stop avoiding my posts then acting later on like I said something else or never made a point to begin with

[Praxeas]

Keep reading Prax.. its just not there
What in the world are you talking about? Please PLEASE sir...PLEASE stop being intentionally ambiguous like this and QUOTE ME. Your posts like this are really useless.

[Praxeas]

For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The scriptures speak for themselves.. at Pentecost they were TELLING the works of God... the largest missionary endeavor in history... and then Peter..... speaks to the unbelievers collectivly to make plain unto them what they were seeing....

but this was NOT A PENTECOSAL style gathering... no speaking in tongues

Paul said that NO MAN WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD them had they been speaking in tongues... argue with the book
Are you responding to someone elses post? Please quote them. This is getting rediculous

[Praxeas]

They were SENT there to WAIT for the promise of the Father and then to preach repentance and remission of sins. But the point is they were gathered together. It was a church gathering. This goes against your asserted paradigm of what church gatherings are ONLY for.


They ASKED that? what verse was that again?


they were ALL speaking in tongues....perhaps AT the same time...which is UNLIKE what Paul told the Corinthians to do..you have a contradiction there if you are right in your interpretations. Additionally they were NOT preaching the gospel in tongues to them....if they were there would be no reason for Peter to stand up and preach a gospel message


Act 2:11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs — we hear them speaking in our own languages about the great deeds God has done!"

Yes....you know what that is? That is HIGH PRAISE!
sa 12:4 And you will say in that day: "Give thanks to the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the peoples, proclaim that his name is exalted.
Isa 12:5 "Sing praises to the LORD, for he has done gloriously; let this be made known in all the earth.


There is no verse that says they were standing there conversing with these others in their own language. Tongues according to Paul...the verses YOU raised as an issue....is OUR spirit talking to God. It just so happens because these languages were in the language of the people they heard them praising God in the Spirit....but Peter STILL had to preach to them the gospel


Then is Paul a liar? It says they were ALL filled and began to speak in tongues...speak in tongues...They were SPEAKING in tongues. That is YOUR spirit praying to God according to Paul.

Act 10:45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
Act 10:46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
Act 10:47 "No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Act 10:48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.
BUMP

Brother, the problem I think is that you have your fingers in way to many pies. You have stretched yourself thing across several threads I believe and this makes it impossible for you to, in a cognizant manner, address our posts.

This is one reason the admin have asked you to limit how many new threads you start. It is just becoming more frustrating and devisive trying to have an intelligent dialogue with you.

[LadyRev]

RICO - Priscilla was allowed to have a conversation with men with her husband present about the things of God,,, she was not allowed to PREACH in the local church setting.. this sister and I are having a conversation.. she is in no authority over me whatsoever as she would be if she were preaching the WORD OF GOD to me

Brother, even if we were in a church setting and I was preaching the Word of God, I would not have or be attempting to have authority over you. The Word of God is the authority whether preached by a male or a female. The male or female is simply a messenger with no authority in or of themselves.

When you submit to and/or obey the Word of God, you are submitting to and/or obeying God, not the man or woman delivering the message.

On the other hand, if a man or woman gives their personal interpretation or opinion on something and you choose to submit and/or obey, THEN you are submitting to and/or obeying the man or woman. :)

[Dr. Vaughn]

Brother, even if we were in a church setting and I was preaching the Word of God, I would not have or be attempting to have authority over you. The Word of God is the authority whether preached by a male or a female. The male or female is simply a messenger with no authority in or of themselves.

When you submit to and/or obey the Word of God, you are submitting to and/or obeying God, not the man or woman delivering the message.

On the other hand, if a man or woman gives their personal interpretation or opinion on something and you choose to submit and/or obey, THEN you are submitting to and/or obeying the man or woman. :)

of course we disagree.. my respect for you as my sister will not allow me to argue the point......

in closing to young Timothy Paul describes the role of a preacher

Preach the Word........reprove, rebuke, exhort..... all of those words places a Preacher in a divine authority to rebuke reprove and correct the Saints of God.. no sister should have that authority over the Man of God.....

again... I honor your walk with God, we simply disagree

[LadyRev]

LR is a bonified lady preacher

Thats an Oxymoron, there is no such thing

I assure you I am neither "Oxy" nor am I a moron. :D

However, there is no doubt I'm a bonified lady preacher. I'm very real, believe it or not, and I do preach the Word of God. I'm even licensed and recognized by my organization of choice, the UPCI. I'm also married and my husband can tell you I am very real. Hes my biggest fan! :)

[Rico]

I assure you I am neither "Oxy" nor am I a moron. :D

However, there is no doubt I'm a bonified lady preacher. I'm very real, believe it or not, and I do preach the Word of God. I'm even licensed and recognized by my organization of choice, the UPCI. I'm also married and my husband can tell you I am very real. Hes my biggest fan! :)

He'd better be, with all them guns you have!!! :D

[bkstokes]

What in the world are you talking about? Please PLEASE sir...PLEASE stop being intentionally ambiguous like this and QUOTE ME. Your posts like this are really useless.

PRAX

That is how he does it. He tries to wear people out not with sound reasoning from the scriptures, but with circular dialog and ambigious terms.

[Dr. Vaughn]

I assure you I am neither "Oxy" nor am I a moron. :D

However, there is no doubt I'm a bonified lady preacher. I'm very real, believe it or not, and I do preach the Word of God. I'm even licensed and recognized by my organization of choice, the UPCI. I'm also married and my husband can tell you I am very real. Hes my biggest fan! :)

as I said... a lady preachers true spirit will always show.. as all of ours will

[Dr. Vaughn]

PRAX

That is how he does it. He tries to wear people out not with sound reasoning from the scriptures, but with circular dialog and ambigious terms.

thanks for the support....

[papapraiz]

They did...I pointed that out as well....and what were they doing? Praise God, eating their meat and breaking bread.

They gathered for many reasons. They also gathered NOT just in a house or in the temple but in the streets to evangelize and also in synagogues

My point was that many people have this misconception that the early church gathered only in houses and did not have a church building.

Also, they met daily in in the temple and from house to house in Acts 2, but it is important to note the scriptural pattern and purpose for the early church meeting on the first day of each week.

If we do not understand this, then we miss the spiritual significance for gathering together on the first day of each new week, the day we call sunday.

[LadyRev]

as I said... a lady preachers true spirit will always show.. as all of ours will

What spirit would that be?

Could it be the same spirit that causes men to state who they are, what they are, what they do, etc.?

[Dr. Vaughn]

What spirit would that be?

Could it be the same spirit that causes men to state who they are, what they are, what they do, etc.?

I'm sorry..... who they are and what they do?

[Dr. Vaughn]

What spirit would that be?

Could it be the same spirit that causes men to state who they are, what they are, what they do, etc.?

I can just say that Sis. Alvear would never try to prove she is a bonafide preacher.... and if we don't believe it just ask her husband.... she is a rare exception

[Dr. Vaughn]

I've never understood how a woman preacher can meet the criteria of a quiet spirit.. if their up screaming and preaching

But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

[Rico]

I've never understood how a woman preacher can meet the criteria of a quiet spirit.. if their up screaming and preaching

But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

It says a meek and quiet spirit, not mouth! :toofunny

[Dr. Vaughn]

as goeth the SPirit.. so goeth the mouth...

from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.. if the spirit of a woman is quiet.... you will see nothing but the same displayed in her flesh

[LadyRev]

of course we disagree.. my respect for you as my sister will not allow me to argue the point......

in closing to young Timothy Paul describes the role of a preacher

Preach the Word........reprove, rebuke, exhort..... all of those words places a Preacher in a divine authority to rebuke reprove and correct the Saints of God.. no sister should have that authority over the Man of God.....

again... I honor your walk with God, we simply disagree

When the Man of God understands that its not the messenger doing the reproving, rebuking or exhorting, he generally doesn't have a problem with it so long as the messenger stays within the boundaries of the Word of God.

I do thank you for the honor. But you are right, we do disagree. :)

[Dr. Vaughn]

When the Man of God understands that its not the messenger doing the reproving, rebuking or exhorting, he generally doesn't have a problem with it so long as the messenger stays within the boundaries of the Word of God.

I do thank you for the honor. But you are right, we do disagree. :)

Sister, if I bestow upon you the Presidency of the United States.. the full authority of the constitutional duties ascribed to you.. now are vested in YOU.. the one who fills the office

The Five Fold ministry are OFFICES and upon being placed into that office.. that full authority of THE WORD is vested in you.... and now you are the carrier of that authority... thus we rebuke Satan now in the name of the Lord.. we carry his authority.. when serving in the pulpit,,, you have taken on the full authority of the Word and all the authority that it gives to rebuke the church,, correct the church,, reprove the church... and this is just a place that God never inteded for a woman to have over a man.... again I say it with all honor and respect.. I did not begin this conversation,, please bear that in mind

[LadyRev]

I'm sorry..... who they are and what they do?

Let me explain.

It seems that a woman who admits to being a preacher of the gospel and/or a woman who talks about what she does for God tends to be accused of having a "wrong spirit" for doing so.

But on the other hand a man can say the exact same things and he is not accused of having a "wrong spirit" even while bragging and flaunting his accomplishments for "the kingdom of God".

It is no secret that many male preachers obtain preaching and pastoring opportunities not so much by prayer but rather by a blatant display of their abilities and by making unsolicited phone calls.

[LadyRev]

I can just say that Sis. Alvear would never try to prove she is a bonafide preacher.... and if we don't believe it just ask her husband.... she is a rare exception

Are you saying that Sis. Alvear would be displaying a "wrong spirit" if she did try to prove she was a bonafide preacher?

Its wrong for a woman but OK for a man to do the same?

Also, when does a simple statement of facts qualify as "trying to prove" oneself? All I stated were facts. I have nothing to prove. :)

[LadyRev]

I've never understood how a woman preacher can meet the criteria of a quiet spirit.. if their up screaming and preaching

But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

How can a man get up and preach and scream and meet the criteria of studying to be quiet and minding his own business?

1 Thessalonians 4:9-12
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. 10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; 11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; 12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

[Dr. Vaughn]

How can a man get up and preach and scream and meet the criteria of studying to be quiet and minding his own business?

1 Thessalonians 4:9-12
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. 10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; 11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; 12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Context, is such a beautiful thing...... the Apostles were speaking to MEN in their work their daily work lives..... and says speacifically that they should behave this way WITHOUT or OUTSIDE the church... this was instructions for OUTSIDE THE CHURCH in their BUSINESS LIFE...... they were NEVER commanded to be quiet in the House of God as women were