Even Jesus couldn't heal everyone

[Dr. Vaughn]

There has been mention that not everyone was healed in Bro. Branhams meetings.... and I am amazed at the times when even in the presence of Jesus not everyone was healed

But Mk 6:5 says that in Nazereth, "he could there do no mighty work, save that He laid His hands upon a few sick folk and healed them". Even Jesus COULD NOT over ride someone's unbelief

Jesus laid hands on the sick and only a few were healed....

~~~~ The crowd pressed all around him,, sick people had heard he was a healer... people everywhere touching him but only ONE was healed..... he said WHO TOUCHED ME

~~~~ His best friend Lazarus could not be healed by Jesus.. because it was not the will of God to heal him...... yet I wonder how many said "see,, I thought he was a healer"

[Steve Epley]

Jesus never told anyone they were healed personally and they died or did not get well. Branham did.

[Dr. Vaughn]

No sir,, scriptures says he COULD NOT DO many mighty works.....

You missed the whole Lazarus point... people begged him to heal Lazarus... but he COULD NOT.. why not? The Father had another will,, and healing was not his will in this instance.... ressurection was... for the greater glory

There were many in Bro. Branhams meetings that if it was not Gods will for them to be healed... they would indeed leave unhealed

[Dr. Vaughn]

Wrong again Bro. Eply................speaking of Lazarus

"He will not die" or "This sickness is not unto death" and indeed he did die.... but he was ressurected.... AFTER HE DIED

[Steve Epley]

Wrong again Bro. Eply................speaking of Lazarus

"He will not die" or "This sickness is not unto death" and indeed he did die.... but he was ressurected.... AFTER HE DIED

Are you saying Jesus lied????????????????

It was NOT unto death Jesus resurrected him. Branham did NOT resurrect the folks he said was not going to die. Nice try but won't work. Branham missed.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro. Eply.. if Lazarus didn't DIE then it was not a true ressurection... are you saying he was just in a coma? if so it was a fake ressurection...

Jesus said Lazarus would not die... LAZARUS DIED

[Praxeas]

No sir,, scriptures says he COULD NOT DO many mighty works.....

You missed the whole Lazarus point... people begged him to heal Lazarus... but he COULD NOT.. why not? The Father had another will,, and healing was not his will in this instance.... ressurection was... for the greater glory

There were many in Bro. Branhams meetings that if it was not Gods will for them to be healed... they would indeed leave unhealed
He could heal him. It was not God's will. However we know why....so the glory of God can be seen. So then how does this compare to what Bro Epley was talking about?? Some woman was told she WOULD be healed and was NOT healed and was also NOT raised from the dead soon after.

BTW the statement of Jesus was NOT meant to mean Lazarus would not die, but did. Rather the statement was to the point that the PURPOSE of the illness was not to take Lazarus's life but for the purpose of the Son's Glory.

[HeavenlyOne]

Bro. Eply.. if Lazarus didn't DIE then it was not a true ressurection... are you saying he was just in a coma? if so it was a fake ressurection...

Jesus said Lazarus would not die... LAZARUS DIED

Scripture, please!!!

Jesus never said any such thing. Do you read scripture?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Heavenly One... do you really want me to post the scripture that everyone has already read? "This sickness is NOT unto death" or in other words.. HE WILL NOT DIE

[Rico]

It has now gone from exalting Branham to discrediting Jesus to show how much He and Branham are alike.

[bkstokes]

V

Stop playing with words to try to prove that your idol was all that. God used him to heal people -- to God be the glory. Branham was human and he missed it.

V

You are going to set a record for all the threads you start.

[DividedThigh]

branham was a false prophet, next subject, he did say he would resurrect himself, did that happen, no. dt

[Dr. Vaughn]

branham was a false prophet, next subject, he did say he would resurrect himself, did that happen, no. dt

Divided Thigh.... please accept this in the sincerety I am giving it.. you have made a FALSE statement against a brother in Christ.... as your brother I beg you to either show this board where Bro. Branham EVER SAID THAT and I will RENOUNCE HIM RIGHT NOW as a FALSE PROPHET

You have a scriptural obligation if you have lied on a brother in Christ to make it right..... I call on Bro. Eply to out of honesty set the record straight...

Did. Bro. Branham EVER SAY he would ressurect himself

[1Corinth2v4]

There has been mention that not everyone was healed in Bro. Branhams meetings.... and I am amazed at the times when even in the presence of Jesus not everyone was healed

But Mk 6:5 says that in Nazereth, "he could there do no mighty work, save that He laid His hands upon a few sick folk and healed them". Even Jesus COULD NOT over ride someone's unbelief

Jesus laid hands on the sick and only a few were healed....

~~~~ The crowd pressed all around him,, sick people had heard he was a healer... people everywhere touching him but only ONE was healed..... he said WHO TOUCHED ME

~~~~ His best friend Lazarus could not be healed by Jesus.. because it was not the will of God to heal him...... yet I wonder how many said "see,, I thought he was a healer"

I know you don't want me involved in this thread because I'll take you to school and send you home crying!

[Dr. Vaughn]

In case you haven't noticed, I love school,, which one did you have in mind?

[DividedThigh]

many people who claimed to know branham much better than you, say he said that, that is all i know, dt

[Dr. Vaughn]

many people who claimed to know branham much better than you, say he said that, that is all i know, dt

Divided Thigh, unacceptable.... you made a false statement on hearsay and vicious rumors.. that scripture forbids you to repeat without proof..... its called talebearing and it's hated by God himself....

Again,,, NOT ONE TIME did Bro. Branham ever make such a statement.. and I will not let this go away until you do the right thing... either PROVE YOUR STATEMENT ------- or set the record straight for our viewers... now do the right thing ....

Again.. One Accord. Bro. Scott.... Bro. Eply.... its a great time to do what's right and set the record straight... no matter your personal feelings.,. truth is truth and lie is a lie

[DividedThigh]

good luck, dt

[Timmy]

:popcorn2

[Steve Epley]

I think what is being referred to is his 'tent vision' that never happened so in the minds of his followers they got every criptic statement he made and weaved this fanciful tale. Branham said "I will ride this trail again" I have no earthly idea what he was talking about but to them he is coming back, since NONE of his visions can fail then he has to resurrect to fulfil them. But he has to resurrect alot of folks he gave jobs to cause most of them are dead. Wacko yes. But I heard statement after statement made form the pulpit of the Tabernacle talking about his return.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Divided Thigh,, your exactly right... it will take a lot of luck to get the brethren to do the right thing in this matter... I am on scriptural authority when I call you to either confess its a lie.. or provide proof otherwise... you are bound by scripture to do such a thing

[Rico]

I know you don't want me involved in this thread because I'll take you to school and send you home crying!


:toofunny Yer funny! :toofunny

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro. Eply.... did Branham ever say he would ressurect himself???

We will all ride this trail again in the Millenium

Again,, the write above said Branham said he would RESSURECT HIMSELF.. did he or did he not say that?

[Rico]

Divided Thigh, unacceptable.... you made a false statement on hearsay and vicious rumors.. that scripture forbids you to repeat without proof..... its called talebearing and it's hated by God himself....

Again,,, NOT ONE TIME did Bro. Branham ever make such a statement.. and I will not let this go away until you do the right thing... either PROVE YOUR STATEMENT ------- or set the record straight for our viewers... now do the right thing ....

Again.. One Accord. Bro. Scott.... Bro. Eply.... its a great time to do what's right and set the record straight... no matter your personal feelings.,. truth is truth and lie is a lie

Brother Epley has already set you straight on this issue, and you chose not to believe him.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Rico - before this thread over brother you will owe an apology for that statement... thats not a prophecy.. its just my human prediction

Of course you will not give it... you will never be able to say "Ok. DividedThigh falsely accused Bro. Branham of something he did not say" it's not in you to apologize for something that is a lie,, every word of it is a lie

[DividedThigh]

dr v in the spirit of friendship i will say this to you, i pastored a church 20 years ago that was in a city where there was a branhamite church, i knew some of the folks that went to that church, they were very nice, they did believe the doctrines of wb and also still to that day believed that he would rise again, that is the source of my statement, i am happy you are adamant in your faith, that is good if it is in the word of god, dt

[Dr. Vaughn]

dr v in the spirit of friendship i will say this to you, i pastored a church 20 years ago that was in a city where there was a branhamite church, i knew some of the folks that went to that church, they were very nice, they did believe the doctrines of wb and also still to that day believed that he would rise again, that is the source of my statement, i am happy you are adamant in your faith, that is good if it is in the word of god, dt

Divided Thigh.. is it sooo hard to just say "I have no proof and maybe he never said such a thing?" Has our pride pushed to a place where we can never admit perhaps we had wrong information??

I appreciate your Spirit of Friendship and offer the same to you in return but in all honesty... that is not the Spirit you made you first post in.......

FLASE PROPHET, HE SAID HE WOULD RESSURECT HIMSELF AND HE DIDNT

That was not in the Spirit of Friendship,, that was in the Spirit of Confusion ,.,.. it was a lie against Bro. Branham... Now had you said "His followers, many of them believe he will ressurect" I would have said AMEN to you.. many of them believe that.. but you chose to attribute that weird doctrine to the very mouth of William Branham,..,, it was unfair"

[DividedThigh]

as most people do, even those people dr v, i refer you to bro epleys explanation, sincerely i am not trying to offend you, but people who heard him while alive are the ones who say that, maybe they misinterpreted him or misunderstood him, but i have always believed the closer to the source, the more accurate the statement, dt

[Steve Epley]

I think what is being referred to is his 'tent vision' that never happened so in the minds of his followers they got every criptic statement he made and weaved this fanciful tale. Branham said "I will ride this trail again" I have no earthly idea what he was talking about but to them he is coming back, since NONE of his visions can fail then he has to resurrect to fulfil them. But he has to resurrect alot of folks he gave jobs to cause most of them are dead. Wacko yes. But I heard statement after statement made form the pulpit of the Tabernacle talking about his return.

Dr. Vaughn you have not addressed this and the other poster was qutoing Branhamites he knew have you no reply. I KNOW for a fact at one time Billy Paul believed his dad was raise from the dead as did most of the Tabernacle folks.

[Dead eye]

Dr. V, you have been working pretty hard around here, I was going to bring you a soda, but there is a bunch of paint all over the floor and you are way over in the corner where I can't reach ya. Sorry, I tried.

:D

[Steve Epley]

Bro. Eply.... did Branham ever say he would ressurect himself???

We will all ride this trail again in the Millenium

Again,, the write above said Branham said he would RESSURECT HIMSELF.. did he or did he not say that?

Will the tent vision be in the millenium? You are hedging and you know it. IN the beginning after his death the majority believed he was rise and have that tent meeting. I haven't been around them for years but i do not have any doubt some still teach and believe this.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Dr. Vaughn you have not addressed this and the other poster was qutoing Branhamites he knew have you no reply. I KNOW for a fact at one time Billy Paul believed his dad was raise from the dead as did most of the Tabernacle folks.

Brother Eply,, I did respond... i said that we will all ride this trail again in the Millenium....

He cant help what Billy Paul,, who needs to be saved himself,,,, had to say.. or anyone else.. the poster SAID

He was a FALSE PROPHET because HE SAID he would ressurect himself

ITS A LIE

[Dr. Vaughn]

Will the tent vision be in the millenium? You are hedging and you know it. IN the beginning after his death the majority believed he was rise and have that tent meeting. I haven't been around them for years but i do not have any doubt some still teach and believe this.

Bro. Eply your responses are hedging.,. you refuse to answer ONE SIMPLE question and set the records straight...

Did William Branham ever ONE TIME tell anyone he would ressurect himself from the dead?

No one understands the tent vision.. its not something I ever think about.... but until then.......please dont tell us what whacko followers believe

Tell us once and for all ... DID WILLIAM BRANHAM ever PROPHESY he would RESSURECT HIMSELF from the DEAD?

The records begs to be set straight

[Dr. Vaughn]

as most people do, even those people dr v, i refer you to bro epleys explanation, sincerely i am not trying to offend you, but people who heard him while alive are the ones who say that, maybe they misinterpreted him or misunderstood him, but i have always believed the closer to the source, the more accurate the statement, dt

Dear Brother, I have access to the very same words those people heard when he was alive.. with the push of a button I can pull up any quote with any word you give me... I tried Ressurect myself.. out of 1100 sermons NOT ONCE

I will ressurect... NOT ONCE
I will return NOT ONCE

In 1100 sermons its not there..

[1Corinth2v4]

There has been mention that not everyone was healed in Bro. Branhams meetings.... and I am amazed at the times when even in the presence of Jesus not everyone was healed

But Mk 6:5 says that in Nazereth, "he could there do no mighty work, save that He laid His hands upon a few sick folk and healed them". Even Jesus COULD NOT over ride someone's unbelief

Jesus laid hands on the sick and only a few were healed....

~~~~ The crowd pressed all around him,, sick people had heard he was a healer... people everywhere touching him but only ONE was healed..... he said WHO TOUCHED ME

~~~~ His best friend Lazarus could not be healed by Jesus.. because it was not the will of God to heal him...... yet I wonder how many said "see,, I thought he was a healer"

Vaughn,

The scripture reads:

Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


Was the people's unbelief found in that they didn't believe Jesus could heal, or was their unbelief found in that they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[Praxeas]

He could heal him. It was not God's will. However we know why....so the glory of God can be seen. So then how does this compare to what Bro Epley was talking about?? Some woman was told she WOULD be healed and was NOT healed and was also NOT raised from the dead soon after.

BTW the statement of Jesus was NOT meant to mean Lazarus would not die, but did. Rather the statement was to the point that the PURPOSE of the illness was not to take Lazarus's life but for the purpose of the Son's Glory.
Bump AGAIN for the Dr.....I wonder why he keeps avoiding my counter arguments

[1Corinth2v4]

Bump AGAIN for the Dr.....I wonder why he keeps avoiding my counter arguments

I hope he answers my question too.....:hurtyou

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bump AGAIN for the Dr.....I wonder why he keeps avoiding my counter arguments

I've adressed it 3 times,, learn to scroll,, I'll not visit it again

[Dr. Vaughn]

I hope he answers my question too.....:hurtyou

Are you guys serious... I have responded to HUNDREDS of question.. i have never run from any and never will,,, the truth stands on its own...

Oh brother.. you like so many presented one scripture.. lets look at other ones... its called exegesis

And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

Great scripture for those who wonder why someone like Bro. Branham who saw God heal so many could not see them all healed...

Mark 6:5 - HE COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS....... it means he was unable to

[Dr. Vaughn]

Jesus never told anyone they were healed personally and they died or did not get well. Branham did.

Bro. Eply, of course I would never doubt your word.. However, I am going to ask you for the quote, the verifiable record where this happened.....

[RevBuddy]

This guy is deluded...do not argue with educated ignorance...

[Rico]

Are you guys serious... I have responded to HUNDREDS of question.. i have never run from any and never will,,, the truth stands on its own...

Oh brother.. you like so many presented one scripture.. lets look at other ones... its called exegesis

And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

Great scripture for those who wonder why someone like Bro. Branham who saw God heal so many could not see them all healed...

Mark 6:5 - HE COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS....... it means he was unable to

Again, you are twisting the meaning of the scriptures. You are either suggesting Jesus did not possess the ability to heal anyone and everyone He wanted to heal, or suggesting that Branham had the ability to heal anyone he wanted and couldn't because people didn't have the faith. Either way you are giving Jesus and Branham equal billing, which is blasphemous.

[Praxeas]

I've adressed it 3 times,, learn to scroll,, I'll not visit it again
Learn to scroll? Wow, your arrogance just gets worse and worse....I did scroll...you NEVER quoted me then replied to what I said. You have consistently blown off my counter arguments and with an attitude to boot...

[1Corinth2v4]

Are you guys serious... I have responded to HUNDREDS of question.. i have never run from any and never will,,, the truth stands on its own...

Oh brother.. you like so many presented one scripture.. lets look at other ones... its called exegesis

And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

Great scripture for those who wonder why someone like Bro. Branham who saw God heal so many could not see them all healed...

Mark 6:5 - HE COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS....... it means he was unable to

Vaughn,

Once again I ask you to solely answer my question:

Was the people's unbelief found in that they didn't believe Jesus could heal, or was their unbelief found in that they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah?


Which was it?

[Praxeas]

Are you guys serious... I have responded to HUNDREDS of question.. i have never run from any and never will,,, the truth stands on its own...

Oh brother.. you like so many presented one scripture.. lets look at other ones... its called exegesis

And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

Great scripture for those who wonder why someone like Bro. Branham who saw God heal so many could not see them all healed...

Mark 6:5 - HE COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS....... it means he was unable to
Consistently over the spammed topics you keep starting you HAVE in fact ignored my posts where I asked questions or refuted your assertions

BTW EXEGESIS means to critically explain or rip apart grammatically a text. IT does not mean "quoting a second verse".

Then you qoute Mark 6:5 out of context. It says he could not because of THEIR faith....it was not about HIS ability but THEIR faith or lack of

[1Corinth2v4]

Are you guys serious... I have responded to HUNDREDS of question.. i have never run from any and never will,,, the truth stands on its own...

Oh brother.. you like so many presented one scripture.. lets look at other ones... its called exegesis

And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

Great scripture for those who wonder why someone like Bro. Branham who saw God heal so many could not see them all healed...

Mark 6:5 - HE COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS....... it means he was unable to


I have a backbone to answer any question you have! Are you capable of answering mine?

[Praxeas]

Bump for the Dr

[Dr. Vaughn]

Consistently over the spammed topics you keep starting you HAVE in fact ignored my posts where I asked questions or refuted your assertions

BTW EXEGESIS means to critically explain or rip apart grammatically a text. IT does not mean "quoting a second verse".

Then you qoute Mark 6:5 out of context. It says he could not because of THEIR faith....it was not about HIS ability but THEIR faith or lack of

You need NOT explain to me what Exegesis is.. I have enough credit hours to have figured it out myself......

because of the tone you and I have taken..... and the Spirit it is bringing out of both of us.. I will cease to respond.... blessings

[Praxeas]

You need NOT explain to me what Exegesis is.. I have enough credit hours to have figured it out myself......

Then you should also use it in the right way, correct?

because of the tone you and I have taken..... and the Spirit it is bringing out of both of us.. I will cease to respond.... blessings
Well I am glad...relieved actually...that you have responded that it is you AND I and not all everyone else. Thank you.

[1Corinth2v4]

You need NOT explain to me what Exegesis is.. I have enough credit hours to have figured it out myself......

because of the tone you and I have taken..... and the Spirit it is bringing out of both of us.. I will cease to respond.... blessings


The same tactics Jehovah's Witness utilize....run Forest run...

Your credits have rendered you obsolete.

[HeavenlyOne]

Heavenly One... do you really want me to post the scripture that everyone has already read? "This sickness is NOT unto death" or in other words.. HE WILL NOT DIE

Yes, I want you to post scripture, but without your interpretation of it.

[HeavenlyOne]

dr v in the spirit of friendship i will say this to you, i pastored a church 20 years ago that was in a city where there was a branhamite church, i knew some of the folks that went to that church, they were very nice, they did believe the doctrines of wb and also still to that day believed that he would rise again, that is the source of my statement, i am happy you are adamant in your faith, that is good if it is in the word of god, dt

I know people from that church too. Not close enough to ask about their doctrines, however.

[Dr. Vaughn]

John 11:4 - When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death

and yet Lazarus died... or if he didnt really die then he wasnt really ressurected

[HeavenlyOne]

Are you guys serious... I have responded to HUNDREDS of question.. i have never run from any and never will,,, the truth stands on its own...

Oh brother.. you like so many presented one scripture.. lets look at other ones... its called exegesis

And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

Great scripture for those who wonder why someone like Bro. Branham who saw God heal so many could not see them all healed...

Mark 6:5 - HE COULD DO NO MIGHTY WORKS....... it means he was unable to

You deserve the 'taking scripture out of context the best' award.

According to how you look at scripture, you are able to come up with a verse that says Jesus isn't God. In fact, I know just the verse that, to you, makes that claim.

You are so close to heresy I bet your feet are burning.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Heavenly One,, out of respect dear sister... could you refute me with scripture rather than low and personal attacks?

Does the scripture say it or not?

Did Lazarus die or not?

[HeavenlyOne]

John 11:4 - When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death

and yet Lazarus died... or if he didnt really die then he wasnt really ressurected

Why are you afraid to post the entire scripture? Is this how you preach your doctrine to others, by giving them only half the truth?

There is no period at the end of that verse. You can't take part of something someone said and run with it. I've seen you upset about those who makes claims about your preacher because they only take part of what he said and make a claim you state is untrue, yet you do the same thing with Jesus and the Word of God.

And you have a PhD?

[HeavenlyOne]

Heavenly One,, out of respect dear sister... could you refute me with scripture rather than low and personal attacks?

Does the scripture say it or not?

Did Lazarus die or not?

Read the rest of the scripture.

And I have not attacked you personally. I read your words and respond to them, not to your person.

[Rico]

I see the night shift has arrived. Have fun y'all!

[Dr. Vaughn]

Why are you afraid to post the entire scripture? Is this how you preach your doctrine to others, by giving them only half the truth?

There is no period at the end of that verse. You can't take part of something someone said and run with it. I've seen you upset about those who makes claims about your preacher because they only take part of what he said and make a claim you state is untrue, yet you do the same thing with Jesus and the Word of God.

And you have a PhD?

Why is there a ? after Ph.D. this board seems to have a major problem with that... I've never seen anything like it

Sis. I didnt have to quote the entire verse.. because the rest of the verse supports MY VIEW.. there was a REASON GOD DID NOT HEAL LAZARUS.... its my same argument for those who were not healed in bro. branhams meetings.. it was not the WILL OR the TIMING of GOD.. so you see there was no need to post the rest of the verse.....

But I wanted to prove that Jesus could not heal his best freind... FOR A GREATER PURPOSE...... just because someone was not healed in a Branham meeting.. doe's not mean bro. Branham was a fake .......

[Praxeas]

I've adressed it 3 times,, learn to scroll,, I'll not visit it again
No you did not. If you did it was ambiguosly done as you usually do by NOT quoting me so I know you are replying to me. You have done this a lot on this board

[jaxfam6]

I think what is being referred to is his 'tent vision' that never happened so in the minds of his followers they got every criptic statement he made and weaved this fanciful tale. Branham said "I will ride this trail again" I have no earthly idea what he was talking about but to them he is coming back, since NONE of his visions can fail then he has to resurrect to fulfil them. But he has to resurrect alot of folks he gave jobs to cause most of them are dead. Wacko yes. But I heard statement after statement made form the pulpit of the Tabernacle talking about his return.

There is a group of his followers in Tucson that teach his is coming back and it will be in Tucson that he shows himself.
At two seperate funerals in two different Branhamite churches they are talking so kindly of their dearly departed and they mention Jesus Christ maybe 7 or 8 times and then they talk about William Branham about 70 or 80 times. Now tell me who do they sound like to you that they are following? Jesus or Branham?
Personally mr vaughn I believe you have believed a lie. Now take that or leave it but that is my opinion. Accuse me of anything you want I don't care. Baptize in Jesus name all you want, speak in tongues all you want, repent all you want but as long as you follow this way of thinking and giving such high praise to a man that I don't even give to Paul, Peter, John, or any of the rest, then you are walking down a wrong road. I didn't know Branham, my father did though, he is gone now so I can not ask him anything to verify what he knew. I can tell you this, he warned very sternly that we should stay away from that crowd even back while Branham was still alive. My father left everything and walked away from his family but I know even in the end he still believed the true message of Jesus Christ and Christ crucified. He still warned against listening to those that teach falsehoods. I do not need my fathers warnings to stay away all I needed was reading some of the Branham believers writings on their web sites and church sites to know that I want nothing to do with all they have to say.
Branham was never the healer, Jesus was, Branham was never the one his followers should have looked to, Jesus was. When they stopped following Jesus and started following Branham they crossed a line. Branham may not have intended it but it seems from just reading what his followers say and what others I have spoken with say that he knew what was going on and he allowed it. That would make him a teacher with itching ears and that is something the Bible warns against.
These are my humble opinions, not meant to be mean, hurtful, or otherwise antagonistic.

[HeavenlyOne]

Why is there a ? after Ph.D. this board seems to have a major problem with that... I've never seen anything like it

Sis. I didnt have to quote the entire verse.. because the rest of the verse supports MY VIEW.. there was a REASON GOD DID NOT HEAL LAZARUS.... its my same argument for those who were not healed in bro. branhams meetings.. it was not the WILL OR the TIMING of GOD.. so you see there was no need to post the rest of the verse.....

But I wanted to prove that Jesus could not heal his best freind... FOR A GREATER PURPOSE...... just because someone was not healed in a Branham meeting.. doe's not mean bro. Branham was a fake .......

Did you write a thesis expecting your professor to read only half of what you wrote? I don't have a problem with your degree. I have a degree myself.

I bolded part of your post above. If I took only that bolded part, it appears that you are claiming that Bro. Branham was a fake....yes....you said so in your own words! But is that really what you said in context? Context is a major part of any statement made.

Jesus didn't even attempt to heal Lazarus. He knew what was going to happen. This isn't even close to what Branham did, who did pray over people who weren't healed. Jesus NEVER did that. Anyone He prayed over, laid hands on, or even just spoke the words were healed. He never did that with Lazarus but allowed him to die for a reason.

[Dr. Vaughn]

There is a group of his followers in Tucson that teach his is coming back and it will be in Tucson that he shows himself.
At two seperate funerals in two different Branhamite churches they are talking so kindly of their dearly departed and they mention Jesus Christ maybe 7 or 8 times and then they talk about William Branham about 70 or 80 times. Now tell me who do they sound like to you that they are following? Jesus or Branham?
Personally mr vaughn I believe you have believed a lie. Now take that or leave it but that is my opinion. Accuse me of anything you want I don't care. Baptize in Jesus name all you want, speak in tongues all you want, repent all you want but as long as you follow this way of thinking and giving such high praise to a man that I don't even give to Paul, Peter, John, or any of the rest, then you are walking down a wrong road. I didn't know Branham, my father did though, he is gone now so I can not ask him anything to verify what he knew. I can tell you this, he warned very sternly that we should stay away from that crowd even back while Branham was still alive. My father left everything and walked away from his family but I know even in the end he still believed the true message of Jesus Christ and Christ crucified. He still warned against listening to those that teach falsehoods. I do not need my fathers warnings to stay away all I needed was reading some of the Branham believers writings on their web sites and church sites to know that I want nothing to do with all they have to say.
Branham was never the healer, Jesus was, Branham was never the one his followers should have looked to, Jesus was. When they stopped following Jesus and started following Branham they crossed a line. Branham may not have intended it but it seems from just reading what his followers say and what others I have spoken with say that he knew what was going on and he allowed it. That would make him a teacher with itching ears and that is something the Bible warns against.
These are my humble opinions, not meant to be mean, hurtful, or otherwise antagonistic.

and your opinion is always appreciated and respected

[GotScripture]

His best friend Lazarus could not be healed by Jesus.. because it was not the will of God to heal himThis simplistic error fails on several points. Besides failing to recognize the difference between could not and would not and it also fails to recognize the fact that although Jesus did not rush to heal Lazarus from his sickness when called by the sisters, he certainly did do so in his own timing -- because only a fool would attempt to argue that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead WITHOUT HEALING HIS SICKNESS.

So the healing from the sickness took place a few days later than the sisters would have liked but simply because the timing didn't fit man's wisdom is a silly rationale for trying to suggest that Jesus "could not" heal Lazarus when Jesus undoubtedly gave him the ultimate 'complete recovery'.

Moreover in response to your foolish attempts to paint Jesus as mistaken or lying, I will simply quote Jesus:
Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures

At one point you dare to ask, Does the scripture say it or not? but of course you have already made it clear that you feel that your words should substitute for the words of God's inspired writer. For what scripture ACTUALLY says is: This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
However you clearly prefer to take away the original words of scripture and add your's in their place for you consistently substitute your own reinterpretation in an effort to put your words in Jesus' mouth -- as if your words were just as good: ...in other words.. HE WILL NOT DIE
Your willingness to restate God's word in "other words" in an effort to pretend that the scripture means WHAT YOU SAY is your problem.

The fact is Jesus did NOT say what you falsely claim he said and therein lies root of your self-deception.

I point this out not for your benefit, for if pride will allow you to believe that your own "other words" are equal to those of God's inspired writer's, then one should have no expectation that you would suddenly decide to change your behavior. But rather I am posting this (and will do so without further explanation) to hopefully dissuade anyone who might be tempted to be deceived by your bait-and-switch attempt to paint Jesus (in post 6 (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=475079&postcount=6) especially) as either in error or a liar.

[Dr. Vaughn]

The fact is... at the moment they wanted Lazarus JESUS COULD NOT because the FATHER would not allow this healing.. it was BEFORE THE TIME.. it was not in the FATHERS WILL for LAZARUS to be healed and Jesus said -- I ONLY DO WHAT MY FATHER TELLS ME and I argue he couldnt have healed Lazarus if he wanted to....

the same applies to many who attend great healing meetings... if Gods will is for the sickness to remain it will REMAIN and CANNOT BE HEALED

Now argue with clear and simple logic

[bkstokes]

The fact is... at the moment they wanted Lazarus JESUS COULD NOT because the FATHER would not allow this healing.. it was BEFORE THE TIME.. it was not in the FATHERS WILL for LAZARUS to be healed and Jesus said -- I ONLY DO WHAT MY FATHER TELLS ME and I argue he couldnt have healed Lazarus if he wanted to....

the same applies to many who attend great healing meetings... if Gods will is for the sickness to remain it will REMAIN and CANNOT BE HEALED

Now argue with clear and simple logic

WAIT WAIT IIIIIIIIIIII SEEEEEEEEEEEE IT

It is clear. I beeellllieeev NNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH NEVER

ha hah ha THOUGHT YOU HAD ONE DIDN'T YOU :toofunny

KEEP FISHING V

EVEN THE WORST BAIT CAN CATCH THOSE OLE WORTHLESS ALLIGATOR GAR (WORTHLESS FISH FOUND IN LA -- FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW).

[Dr. Vaughn]

WAIT WAIT IIIIIIIIIIII SEEEEEEEEEEEE IT

It is clear. I beeellllieeev NNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH NEVER

ha hah ha THOUGHT YOU HAD ONE DIDN'T YOU :toofunny

KEEP FISHING V

EVEN THE WORST BAIT CAN CATCH THOSE OLE WORTHLESS ALLIGATOR GAR (WORTHLESS FISH FOUND IN LA -- FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW).

Care to give a scriptural response? rather than trash talk?

[Baron1710]

The fact is... at the moment they wanted Lazarus JESUS COULD NOT because the FATHER would not allow this healing.. it was BEFORE THE TIME.. it was not in the FATHERS WILL for LAZARUS to be healed and Jesus said -- I ONLY DO WHAT MY FATHER TELLS ME and I argue he couldnt have healed Lazarus if he wanted to....

the same applies to many who attend great healing meetings... if Gods will is for the sickness to remain it will REMAIN and CANNOT BE HEALED

Now argue with clear and simple logic

I don't agree with your overall premise in this thread this particular post is correct. If we see the kenosis as Jesus laying aside his divine prerogative and relying completely upon the Father for what he did. It also is obvious that Jesus did not heal everyone that needed healing. If one believes that Paul’s affliction was physical, sometimes the answer is "No".

[Dr. Vaughn]

I don't agree with your overall premise in this thread this particular post is correct. If we see the kenosis as Jesus laying aside his divine prerogative and relying completely upon the Father for what he did. It also is obvious that Jesus did not heal everyone that needed healing. If one believes that Paul’s affliction was physical, sometimes the answer is "No".

Baron,, this was my entire point.. presented my more concisely by you...

This entire debate began when I was responding to one poster who said if Branham had a true gift from God why was not everyone healed.....

in my effort to show that many times, healing is not available because the WILL OF GOD is not always known... and thus no meeting will ever produce 100% healings in a service...

[Baron1710]

Baron,, this was my entire point.. presented my more concisely by you...

This entire debate began when I was responding to one poster who said if Branham had a true gift from God why was not everyone healed.....

in my effort to show that many times, healing is not available because the WILL OF GOD is not always known... and thus no meeting will ever produce 100% healings in a service...

I think there have been several issues along the way but there is a difference in someone claiming that someone will be healed, and them not being healed and Jesus who spoke only what he heard from the Father healing only selected individuals. Everyone not being healed in a healing service (or whatever you want to call it) is certainly not proof that they are not annointed by God.

I have had both experiences with people who are used in the gifts. One time a well know evangelist in the UPCI prophesied over my wife that the doctor had told her she couldn't have kids but she would. He was wrong, no doctor had ever told her that. We also had an experience with a "charismatic" evangelist that quoted word for word the conversation my wife and I had had that morning, and helped give us the Lord's direction in a decision we were making. Sometimes men miss. Jesus didn't.

[Rico]

I think there have been several issues along the way but there is a difference in someone claiming that someone will be healed, and them not being healed and Jesus who spoke only what he heard from the Father healing only selected individuals. Everyone not being healed in a healing service (or whatever you want to call it) is certainly not proof that they are not annointed by God.

I have had both experiences with people who are used in the gifts. One time a well know evangelist in the UPCI prophesied over my wife that the doctor had told her she couldn't have kids but she would. He was wrong, no doctor had ever told her that. We also had an experience with a "charismatic" evangelist that quoted word for word the conversation my wife and I had had that morning, and helped give us the Lord's direction in a decision we were making. Sometimes men miss. Jesus didn't.

Exactamundo! Jesus failed at NOTHING!

[mama bear]

Never argue with an idiot.
They'll pull you down to their level,
Then beat you with experience!!:tic

[Dr. Vaughn]

Never argue with an idiot.
They'll pull you down to their level,
Then beat you with experience!!:tic

I appreciate the term.. idiot.... If I responded so personally to everyone on this board.. I would become like so many others..... why must everything be personal?

[Rico]

I appreciate the term.. idiot.... If I responded so personally to everyone on this board.. I would become like so many others..... why must everything be personal?

Why must you take everything personally? She didn't say who she thought was an idiot. Maybe she thinks I am an idiot, for all we know.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Why must you take everything personally? She didn't say who she thought was an idiot. Maybe she thinks I am an idiot, for all we know.

Now RICO - your not one to play the stupid game..... you need to give it up

[Rico]

Now RICO - your not one to play the stupid game..... you need to give it up

And you need to realize that this the cyber world. Not everything appears as it really is.

[AbundantGrace]

Poor, Pitiful, Brainwashed, Branhamites... Trying to show Jesus as being impotent in power, in order to justify the works or the lack thereof, of a false prophet.

[HeavenlyOne]

The fact is... at the moment they wanted Lazarus JESUS COULD NOT because the FATHER would not allow this healing.. it was BEFORE THE TIME.. it was not in the FATHERS WILL for LAZARUS to be healed and Jesus said -- I ONLY DO WHAT MY FATHER TELLS ME and I argue he couldnt have healed Lazarus if he wanted to....

the same applies to many who attend great healing meetings... if Gods will is for the sickness to remain it will REMAIN and CANNOT BE HEALED

Now argue with clear and simple logic

You are deviating from the original argument which was that Branham declared many people healed who in fact were not. You then claimed that Jesus did the same thing but have yet to prove it with scripture, instead going off on rabbit trails that lead to a totally different conclusion.

The above has never been argued against on this thread. Go back to the original statements.

[HeavenlyOne]

Baron,, this was my entire point.. presented my more concisely by you...

This entire debate began when I was responding to one poster who said if Branham had a true gift from God why was not everyone healed.....

in my effort to show that many times, healing is not available because the WILL OF GOD is not always known... and thus no meeting will ever produce 100% healings in a service...

Read the thread title. It's clear you were speaking of the powerlessness of Jesus Christ. That's NOT what Baron is referring to, nor have you alluded to such in any of your posts. You have been claiming that Jesus was powerless to heal people who wanted healing.

[stmatthew]

I understand that many were not healed by Jesus because he passed them by, but Never, Nada, No not one person that Jesus prayed for ever left him without healing. He NEVER MISSED ONE TIME!

[bkstokes]

I understand that many were not healed by Jesus because he passed them by, but Never, Nada, No not one person that Jesus prayed for ever left him without healing. He NEVER MISSED ONE TIME!

Yes

St Matt

You have made a poignant point.

As a side note, I find it totally disrespectful to compare a mere man in such a fashion with Our Lord and Savior.

[AbundantGrace]

Yes

St Matt

You have made a poignant point.

As a side note, I find it totally disrespectful to compare a mere man in such a fashion with Our Lord and Savior.

Amen & Amen, BKSTOKES!!!

From what I see after reading countless posts about William Branham is a spirit of idolatry. I believe that the office of ministry should be revered and held in high regard. I teach my congregation that very principle, but these Branhamite followers are worshiping the man. Dr. Vaughn is singing the praises of William Branham loud and basically attempting to belittle the Lord Jesus Christ in this thread. Giving him (Dr.V.) the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe that's his desire, but that's what happens when you blindly follow the doctrines of men, rather than clearly opening your eyes and following the Word of God.

Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the Lord, there is no other!"

Isaiah 45:22, "Turn to Me and be saved all you ends of the Earth; for I am God and there is no other!"

Joel 2:27, "...I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other."

It's impossible to compare the Lord with anyone else. Some may try, but there is no comparison.

Isaiah 40:18, "To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?"

Isaiah 40:25 - 26, ""To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One. Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing."

Isaiah 46:5, "To whom will you compare me or count me equal?
To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?"

Enough said.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Read the thread title. It's clear you were speaking of the powerlessness of Jesus Christ. That's NOT what Baron is referring to, nor have you alluded to such in any of your posts. You have been claiming that Jesus was powerless to heal people who wanted healing.

And I maintain that position.... if the FATHERS WILL was not for them to be healed JESUS WAS POWERLESS to override the Fathers will... and heal anyone...... thus the reason he didn't even TRY to heal Lazarus.. HE COULDNT

[bkstokes]

Lazarus death and resurrection was a foreshadowing of the very death and resurrection of our Lord. He was preparing his disciples to believe in the gospel. It was done to give/bring glory to God.

[Rico]

Lazarus death and resurrection was a foreshadowing of the very death and resurrection of our Lord. He was preparing his disciples to believe in the gospel. It was done to give/bring glory to God.

Brother, I have never thought of it that way, but you may be right. In order to get His disciples to believe He would rise again from the dead, He had to show them God has the power to do such things. He was laying the foundation for they themselves to believe the Gospel before they would be entrusted with taking the Gospel to the rest of the world. AWESOME!

[staysharp]

I understand that many were not healed by Jesus because he passed them by, but Never, Nada, No not one person that Jesus prayed for ever left him without healing. He NEVER MISSED ONE TIME!

Matt, this begs to ask the question, "can a man prophesy falsely and be of God?" Why do we make excuses for this behavior?

Scripturally, we never see a prophet of God speak falsely. Either he is of God or not. This whole notion that he is human and therefore subject to error in my opinion is ridiculous!

Men should not open their mouths unless divinely directed of the Holy Spirit. IMO, these men want to "make" God move.

The notion of humans commanding angels and healing is false. Name it and claim it is an erroneous gospel. The power the disciples had was given to them by Jesus himself.

I believe pride is the root of most of these ministries who claim direct access to God himself.

Are there gifts? Yes, of course. Do we have the power of the original Apostles? No. God gave them a specific anointing to establish the church.

[Rico]

Matt, this begs to ask the question, "can a man prophesy falsely and be of God?" Why do we make excuses for this behavior?

Scripturally, we never see a prophet of God speak falsely. Either he is of God or not. This whole notion that he is human and therefore subject to error in my opinion is ridiculous!

Men should not open their mouths unless divinely directed of the Holy Spirit. IMO, these men want to "make" God move.

The notion of humans commanding angels and healing is false. Name it and claim it is an erroneous gospel. The power the disciples had was given to them by Jesus himself.

I believe pride is the root of most of these ministries who claim direct access to God himself.

Are there gifts? Yes, of course. Do we have the power of the original Apostles? No. God gave them a specific anointing to establish the church.

I can agree with what you are saying. Instead of God commanding man, man tries to command God. However, I do believe there is some room for man to command God, because I remember a scripture that talks about, "Here's my hand. Command ye me", and it was God speaking to man. It's possible that I am remembering it out of context or not how it's intended. Maybe someone can find it and post it.

[Steve Epley]

Poor, Pitiful, Brainwashed, Branhamites... Trying to show Jesus as being impotent in power, in order to justify the works or the lack thereof, of a false prophet.

There is a thought. Insult Jesus to prop up Branham.

[Steve Epley]

I understand that many were not healed by Jesus because he passed them by, but Never, Nada, No not one person that Jesus prayed for ever left him without healing. He NEVER MISSED ONE TIME!

Thank you Matthew?

[Steve Epley]

Amen & Amen, BKSTOKES!!!

From what I see after reading countless posts about William Branham is a spirit of idolatry. I believe that the office of ministry should be revered and held in high regard. I teach my congregation that very principle, but these Branhamite followers are worshiping the man. Dr. Vaughn is singing the praises of William Branham loud and basically attempting to belittle the Lord Jesus Christ in this thread. Giving him (Dr.V.) the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe that's his desire, but that's what happens when you blindly follow the doctrines of men, rather than clearly opening your eyes and following the Word of God.

Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the Lord, there is no other!"

Isaiah 45:22, "Turn to Me and be saved all you ends of the Earth; for I am God and there is no other!"

Joel 2:27, "...I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other."

It's impossible to compare the Lord with anyone else. Some may try, but there is no comparison.

Isaiah 40:18, "To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?"

Isaiah 40:25 - 26, ""To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One. Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing."

Isaiah 46:5, "To whom will you compare me or count me equal?
To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?"

Enough said.

Not only good advise but a mandate.

[chosenbyone]

I understand that many were not healed by Jesus because he passed them by, but Never, Nada, No not one person that Jesus prayed for ever left him without healing. He NEVER MISSED ONE TIME!

That's the truth!!!

[Bro-Larry]

"Even Jesus couldn't heal everyone". The Bible is very clear that He did not heal everyone. The question is: "Why couldn't Jesus heal everyone?"

It's not about the "will of the Father", because the Father's will is to heal everybody. He sent Jesus to do just that. However, God had already given dominion of the earth to mankind, (Gen 1:28) therefore if God had forced healing onto everyone, sovereignly against their will, God would have broken His Own Word and made Himself a liar. That's why it is necessary to receive by faith, anything that God is offering. God cannot go against a person's will, for that would be going against His Own Word.

God cannot lie, therefore He cannot heal those who will not receive by faith. You may argue that God could have, but He chose not to. "It is impossible for God to lie". "God's Word is immutable". "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away" than for one puntuation mark to pass from His Word. God's Word "liveth and abideth forever". God's Word "cannot be broken". (even by God Himself). The above referred to scriptures place the issue of God being able to heal someone against their will, into the realm of impossibilities. God's Word is so strong that even God cannot break it.

UNBELIEF is the only reason, on earth that God cannot or will not ever heal anybody.

[Dr. Vaughn]

"Even Jesus couldn't heal everyone". The Bible is very clear that He did not heal everyone. The question is: "Why couldn't Jesus heal everyone?"

It's not about the "will of the Father", because the Father's will is to heal everybody. He sent Jesus to do just that. However, God had already given dominion of the earth to mankind, (Gen 1:28) therefore if God had forced healing onto everyone, sovereignly against their will, God would have broken His Own Word and made Himself a liar. That's why it is necessary to receive by faith, anything that God is offering. God cannot go against a person's will, for that would be going against His Own Word.

God cannot lie, therefore He cannot heal those who will not receive by faith. You may argue that God could have, but He chose not to. "It is impossible for God to lie". "God's Word is immutable". "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away" than for one puntuation mark to pass from His Word. God's Word "liveth and abideth forever". God's Word "cannot be broken". (even by God Himself). The above referred to scriptures place the issue of God being able to heal someone against their will, into the realm of impossibilities. God's Word is so strong that even God cannot break it.

UNBELIEF is the only reason, on earth that God cannot or will not ever heal anybody.

Very balanced.. and very much what I have been trying to say from the beginning

[stmatthew]

Matt, this begs to ask the question, "can a man prophesy falsely and be of God?" Why do we make excuses for this behavior?

Scripturally, we never see a prophet of God speak falsely. Either he is of God or not. This whole notion that he is human and therefore subject to error in my opinion is ridiculous!

Men should not open their mouths unless divinely directed of the Holy Spirit. IMO, these men want to "make" God move.

The notion of humans commanding angels and healing is false. Name it and claim it is an erroneous gospel. The power the disciples had was given to them by Jesus himself.

I believe pride is the root of most of these ministries who claim direct access to God himself.

Are there gifts? Yes, of course. Do we have the power of the original Apostles? No. God gave them a specific anointing to establish the church.

Do we have any biblical proof of any prophets that were "hit and miss"? This would actually make a good thread of its own.

[AbundantGrace]

The more that I read the title of this thread "Even Jesus Couldn't Heal Everyone" the more it bugs me. I take it personal when I hear someone attempt to do away with the deity and power of my Lord and Savior.

The word "EVEN" is used as a comparative word to compare Jesus with Mr. Branham. There is absolutely NOTHING, read that clearly, "NOTHING" that Jesus Christ CANNOT DO! I am not here to destroy the character of William Branham. My very limited knowledge of the man does not qualify me to say too much about him, other than I believe he taught many untruths which are still being followed by some today. But I'm not here to debate that. However, you are in total error to compare William Branham to Christ Jesus in the way that you have. It's obvious that you can't bring Branham up to the flawless level of Jesus, so you decide to bring Jesus down to the imperfect level of Branham. Your wrong Sir and you should admit that what you said was wrong.

Again, there is NOTHING that Jesus Christ couldn't or can't do. Matthew 28:18, "Then Jesus came up and said to them, 'ALL power has been given to Me in Heaven and in Earth.'" Now, I'm not certain as to where you're from, but in my part of the world, we take words like "ALL" and define them as "ALL". ALL POWER!

Anyway, not wanting to argue, but this is just plain wrong and it's an insult!

[Dr. Vaughn]

The more that I read the title of this thread "Even Jesus Couldn't Heal Everyone" the more it bugs me. I take it personal when I hear someone attempt to do away with the deity and power of my Lord and Savior.

The word "EVEN" is used as a comparative word to compare Jesus with Mr. Branham. There is absolutely NOTHING, read that clearly, "NOTHING" that Jesus Christ CANNOT DO! I am not here to destroy the character of William Branham. My very limited knowledge of the man does not qualify me to say too much about him, other than I believe he taught many untruths which are still being followed by some today. But I'm not here to debate that. However, you are in total error to compare William Branham to Christ Jesus in the way that you have. It's obvious that you can't bring Branham up to the flawless level of Jesus, so you decide to bring Jesus down to the imperfect level of Branham. Your wrong Sir and you should admit that what you said was wrong.

Again, there is NOTHING that Jesus Christ couldn't or can't do. Matthew 28:18, "Then Jesus came up and said to them, 'ALL power has been given to Me in Heaven and in Earth.'" Now, I'm not certain as to where you're from, but in my part of the world, we take words like "ALL" and define them as "ALL". ALL POWER!

Anyway, not wanting to argue, but this is just plain wrong and it's an insult!

Thank you kindly for totally wasting your time with trying to prove something to me that I already know... you absolutely missed the entire point of the thread.. it was never to elevate Branham to the status of Jesus.. it was to make the point that even people whom Jesus encountered if they had no faith even HE COULDNT HEAL THEM....... trying to show that just because people were unhealed in branhams meetings while so many others were... was not a slam on bro. Branham... if they had no faith of if it wasn't Gods timing for their healing.. they would leave unhealed... that was the point.. so sorry you missed it

[Praxeas]

Thank you kindly for totally wasting your time with trying to prove something to me that I already know... you absolutely missed the entire point of the thread.. it was never to elevate Branham to the status of Jesus.. it was to make the point that even people whom Jesus encountered if they had no faith even HE COULDNT HEAL THEM....... trying to show that just because people were unhealed in branhams meetings while so many others were... was not a slam on bro. Branham... if they had no faith of if it wasn't Gods timing for their healing.. they would leave unhealed... that was the point.. so sorry you missed it
I didn't see anyone decry that Branham could not heal everyone...I saw it said that Branham claimed someone was healed and they went and died anyways...

[AbundantGrace]

I didn't see anyone decry that Branham could not heal everyone...I saw it said that Branham claimed someone was healed and they went and died anyways...

Exactly! How can anyone try to compare the record of Jesus Christ to that?! What a joke!

[Praxeas]

Exactly! How can anyone try to compare the record of Jesus Christ to that?! What a joke!
This happens a lot and rather than Dr V taking responsibility for his wayward posts he tries to make it our fault.

The problem is he has started so many new threads is such a short time and then gotten involved in the discussions that he can't keep track of what he was arguing and who said what. I made a comment once about Jonah and he responded as though I was speaking of Jeremiah....it was someone ELSE that was speaking of Jeremiah and when I corrected him I never saw him respond.

Several other times he has put words in my mouth and committed several logical fallacies.....never to be acknowledged. He has made assertion after assertion as to his own doctrine but also as to Pentecostals and when I take his statements and refute them he ignores me post after post after post until after I keep persuing it he accuses me of being antagonistic and that this is the reason he is avoiding me. I asked some questions I think need answering in consideration of his doctrine and his misuse of the scriptures and criticism of Pentecostals....he ignored them too.

I want to know, since he says he speaks in tongues, when and where? Are his tongues always interpreted?

And has he been in a Pentecostal service when a tongue went forth and was interpreted. And if so was that different than the other times when Pentecostals were just speaking in tongues all at once during worship?

But he refuses to answer. He also refuses to acknowledge he said things that we do or say happen in Pentecostal services ONLY happens in a voodoo ritual. He wants to blame me and us for his own mistakes, but the sooner he realizes he is guilty as much as anyone else for convoluting a discussion the sooner we can have a real discussion.

But he has to stop blowing off people when they make counter arguments.

[Rico]

Thank you kindly for totally wasting your time with trying to prove something to me that I already know... you absolutely missed the entire point of the thread.. it was never to elevate Branham to the status of Jesus.. it was to make the point that even people whom Jesus encountered if they had no faith even HE COULDNT HEAL THEM....... trying to show that just because people were unhealed in branhams meetings while so many others were... was not a slam on bro. Branham... if they had no faith of if it wasn't Gods timing for their healing.. they would leave unhealed... that was the point.. so sorry you missed it

That may not have been your intent, but that was most certainly the result of you making the comparison between Jesus and Branham.

[Steve Epley]

Thank you kindly for totally wasting your time with trying to prove something to me that I already know... you absolutely missed the entire point of the thread.. it was never to elevate Branham to the status of Jesus.. it was to make the point that even people whom Jesus encountered if they had no faith even HE COULDNT HEAL THEM....... trying to show that just because people were unhealed in branhams meetings while so many others were... was not a slam on bro. Branham... if they had no faith of if it wasn't Gods timing for their healing.. they would leave unhealed... that was the point.. so sorry you missed it

Dr. Vaughn honestly the fault lies with you to defend Branham it seemed you throwed out 'well Jesus didn't so and so' which hit a nerve. Jesus is Jesus and ALL the rest are just men.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Dr. Vaughn honestly the fault lies with you to defend Branham it seemed you throwed out 'well Jesus didn't so and so' which hit a nerve. Jesus is Jesus and ALL the rest are just men.

Correction noted

[AbundantGrace]

Thank you kindly for totally wasting your time with trying to prove something to me that I already know... you absolutely missed the entire point of the thread.. it was never to elevate Branham to the status of Jesus.. it was to make the point that even people whom Jesus encountered if they had no faith even HE COULDNT HEAL THEM....... trying to show that just because people were unhealed in branhams meetings while so many others were... was not a slam on bro. Branham... if they had no faith of if it wasn't Gods timing for their healing.. they would leave unhealed... that was the point.. so sorry you missed it

Dr. Vaughn,
I appreciate your thanks for me wasting my time, but there you go making more mistakes. Sir, perhaps you feel it's a waste of time, but I don't find it a waste of time to take a stand for the name of Jesus. I'm sorry that you would find that a waste of time. Had I been standing for the name and character of William Branham, I'm sure you would have applauded me.

Regardless of what you want to say the "point" of the thread was, you're the one who said that Jesus COULDN'T heal some and it's obvious that the real point wasn't about faith, but it was about bringing Jesus down to simply the level of imperfect men, in order to justify William Branham's failures in his ministry. And again, I'm not here trying to bash William Branham by any means, even though I do not agree with his doctrine, but by the same token, I will not sit idly by and watch as you try to bring my Lord down in the eyes of others.

Again, you should confess that you're dead wrong on this issue and you and anyone who truly understands the deity of Christ should know that you're wrong on this.

God Bless You My Friend...

[HeavenlyOne]

And I maintain that position.... if the FATHERS WILL was not for them to be healed JESUS WAS POWERLESS to override the Fathers will... and heal anyone...... thus the reason he didn't even TRY to heal Lazarus.. HE COULDNT

Do you have scripture that says it wasn't the Father's will? Do you think that Jesus and the Father are two separate individuals? Do you believe that the will of the Father was different than that of Jesus?

You are making a case out of semantics. It's as silly as trying to suggest that the reason I can't drive to WalMart in two hours is because I'll be sleeping...therefore, I CANNOT drive.....well, duh!

Jesus wasn't powerless in that He wasn't able. Stick to the original argument you started.

[HeavenlyOne]

Thank you kindly for totally wasting your time with trying to prove something to me that I already know... you absolutely missed the entire point of the thread.. it was never to elevate Branham to the status of Jesus.. it was to make the point that even people whom Jesus encountered if they had no faith even HE COULDNT HEAL THEM....... trying to show that just because people were unhealed in branhams meetings while so many others were... was not a slam on bro. Branham... if they had no faith of if it wasn't Gods timing for their healing.. they would leave unhealed... that was the point.. so sorry you missed it

Vaughn, it's laughable that someone without faith would ask Jesus for healing in the first place, don't ya think? I'm sure there were people who were sick in Jesus' day who weren't healed, but not because Jesus prayed over them and it didn't happen. If they didn't have faith, it had nothing to do with the power of Jesus Christ. He still has all power regardless of the faith of the people.

People without faith don't seek healing. That would be totally silly.

[HeavenlyOne]

Very balanced.. and very much what I have been trying to say from the beginning

That is NOT what you were asserting in bringing up the issue with Lazarus. Not at all.

You said Jesus couldn't heal him, yet provide no scripture to support that. You claim it wasn't the will of the Father that Lazarus not be healed....again with no scriptural support.

Look at the very thread title! Everyone Jesus prayed over, touched, etc...was HEALED! EVERYONE! NO EXCEPTIONS!

In your first post, you said:

The crowd pressed all around him,, sick people had heard he was a healer... people everywhere touching him but only ONE was healed..... he said WHO TOUCHED ME

~~~~ His best friend Lazarus could not be healed by Jesus.

1. The Bible doesn't say that sick people were touching Him but only one was healed. Only one is mentioned to have touched Him seeking healing, and she was healed.

2. Lazarus COULD HAVE been healed by Jesus, but Jesus had other plans. It had nothing to do with the faith of Lazarus or the powerlessness of Jesus.

So, you are not being entirely truthful when you claim that you have been all about the faith of others in regard to their healing. Lazarus' faith had nothing to do with the miracle performed on him, yet you bring it up to 'prove' that Jesus couldn't heal him. That's untrue.

[Baron1710]

Do you have scripture that says it wasn't the Father's will? Do you think that Jesus and the Father are two separate individuals? Do you believe that the will of the Father was different than that of Jesus?
You are making a case out of semantics. It's as silly as trying to suggest that the reason I can't drive to WalMart in two hours is because I'll be sleeping...therefore, I CANNOT drive.....well, duh!

Jesus wasn't powerless in that He wasn't able. Stick to the original argument you started.



John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus claimed to be powerless. He did all his miracles as a man submitted to God.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

I think the Scripture is clear that there were two wills involved.

[HeavenlyOne]

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus claimed to be powerless. He did all his miracles as a man submitted to God.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

I think the Scripture is clear that there were two wills involved.

Jesus didn't claim to be powerless. His humanity was powerless, but He was God also. It's difficult for us to understand how He could be powerless and all powerful at the same time.

Jesus healed people. Jesus is God. Only God can heal, therefore, Jesus wasn't instituting His own will when people came asking for healing. He is the healer!

Jesus, in the verses above, is speaking as a man...a human. As God, He commanded sickness to leave and the dead to rise. He didn't do those things by the will of the Father, He did those things because He is God!

That's what I was referring to.

[Dr. Vaughn]

They looked at him and said "Good Master" in return he says unto them "Why call me Good, there is none good but God"

Jesus standing before them says "no man has seen God"

[HeavenlyOne]

They looked at him and said "Good Master" in return he says unto them "Why call me Good, there is none good but God"

Jesus standing before them says "no man has seen God"

And your point is?

[Baron1710]

Jesus didn't claim to be powerless. His humanity was powerless, but He was God also. It's difficult for us to understand how He could be powerless and all powerful at the same time.

Jesus healed people. Jesus is God. Only God can heal, therefore, Jesus wasn't instituting His own will when people came asking for healing. He is the healer!

Jesus, in the verses above, is speaking as a man...a human. As God, He commanded sickness to leave and the dead to rise. He didn't do those things by the will of the Father, He did those things because He is God!

That's what I was referring to.

Your Christology has Jesus constantly bouncing between a man and God. If, as Paul states in Philipians 2, Christ took on humity, with all its limitations then He spoke truly when He said he relied on the Father for the things he said and did.

International Standard Version (©2008) Phil. 2:7
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,

[Dr. Vaughn]

Your Christology has Jesus constantly bouncing between a man and God. If, as Paul states in Philipians 2, Christ took on humity, with all its limitations then He spoke truly when He said he relied on the Father for the things he said and did.

International Standard Version (©2008) Phil. 2:7
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,

BAM ------ Paul in speaking "the Father and GOD of our Lord Jesus Christ.. and then always refers to Jesus as "the man Christ Jesus"

You CANNOT have a GOD of a GOD... but you can have the GOD of a man and that GOD dwelling completely in that tabernacle of flesh, called Jesus or more properly Yeshuah

[HeavenlyOne]

Your Christology has Jesus constantly bouncing between a man and God. If, as Paul states in Philipians 2, Christ took on humity, with all its limitations then He spoke truly when He said he relied on the Father for the things he said and did.

International Standard Version (©2008) Phil. 2:7
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,

Wrong. My Christology has Him being both man and God at the same time at all times while on earth.

[Baron1710]

Wrong. My Christology has Him being both man and God at the same time at all times while on earth.

When you say that Jesus did this as a man and this as God, that's not the same as being both God and man at the same time at all times. Those are not consistent statements.

[HeavenlyOne]

When you say that Jesus did this as a man and this as God, that's not the same as being both God and man at the same time at all times. Those are not consistent statements.

With God, all things are possible.

That's scripture. To me, it's simple.

To put it in perspective, I'm both a nurse and a mom. I can do my duties as a nurse and still be a mom. Right now, sitting at home behind my computer, I'm still a nurse and a mom.

When Jesus did things as a man, like pray, He wasn't any less God than when He was raising the dead. He was still God when He was praying.

Hope this helps.

[Baron1710]

With God, all things are possible.

That's scripture. To me, it's simple.

To put it in perspective, I'm both a nurse and a mom. I can do my duties as a nurse and still be a mom. Right now, sitting at home behind my computer, I'm still a nurse and a mom.

When Jesus did things as a man, like pray, He wasn't any less God than when He was raising the dead. He was still God when He was praying.

Hope this helps.

First saying it’s Scripture doesn't make it so.

Second your analogy is irrelevant to the discussion Jesus was a son and a grandson, maybe even an uncle, but that says nothing about the relationship of Deity and humanity. If we take what Jesus said to be the truth then he didn't raise anyone from the dead. He relied on the Father to raise them from the dead. he prayed because he was a man. Jesus said everything he did and said came from the Father he did not operate on His own initiative.

[Dr. Vaughn]

First saying it’s Scripture doesn't make it so.

Second your analogy is irrelevant to the discussion Jesus was a son and a grandson, maybe even an uncle, but that says nothing about the relationship of Deity and humanity. If we take what Jesus said to be the truth then he didn't raise anyone from the dead. He relied on the Father to raise them from the dead. he prayed because he was a man. Jesus said everything he did and said came from the Father he did not operate on His own initiative.

Brother MAN you are PREACHING now... perfect Christology... Why people are so determined to make the MAN CHRIST JESUS GOD and then scream they are ONENESS... is absurd.. if you make JESUS GOD.... and he has a GOD.. which he confesses that he does.. you now have TWO GODS....

There is only ONE GOD and one MAN CHRIST JESUS... which is whom the fulness of God chooses to dwell

Jesus words....... And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

In the writings of Paul he always refers to Jesus as THE SON OF OUR GOD AND FATHER --- never as GOD HIMSELF

[HeavenlyOne]

First saying it’s Scripture doesn't make it so.

Then here's the proof for you.

Mt 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Second your analogy is irrelevant to the discussion Jesus was a son and a grandson, maybe even an uncle, but that says nothing about the relationship of Deity and humanity. If we take what Jesus said to be the truth then he didn't raise anyone from the dead. He relied on the Father to raise them from the dead. he prayed because he was a man. Jesus said everything he did and said came from the Father he did not operate on His own initiative.

Do you believe that Jesus was God? Do you think that when He raised people from the dead that He really wasn't raising them from the dead?

I agree with your assessment, however, that's not what's people spoken of in your accusation that I bounce Jesus back and forth between deity and humanity. He was both at all times simultaneously.

People worshipped Jesus and NOT ONCE did He tell them to stop because He was just a man, or that they should only worship God. He was God, even though He was also a man.

[HeavenlyOne]

Brother MAN you are PREACHING now... perfect Christology... Why people are so determined to make the MAN CHRIST JESUS GOD and then scream they are ONENESS... is absurd.. if you make JESUS GOD.... and he has a GOD.. which he confesses that he does.. you now have TWO GODS....

There is only ONE GOD and one MAN CHRIST JESUS... which is whom the fulness of God chooses to dwell

Jesus words....... And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

In the writings of Paul he always refers to Jesus as THE SON OF OUR GOD AND FATHER --- never as GOD HIMSELF

And here you have it. Vaughn doesn't believe that Jesus was God while on earth, because if He was, then He also had a God, making two Gods.

Baron, I hope you realize what this guy is saying and he thinks you agree with him. I hope he's wrong in that.

[Dr. Vaughn]

And here you have it. Vaughn doesn't believe that Jesus was God while on earth, because if He was, then He also had a God, making two Gods.

Baron, I hope you realize what this guy is saying and he thinks you agree with him. I hope he's wrong in that.

Vaughn believes exactly what scripture says that he "GOD was IN CHRIST" not that "GOD was in GOD"

again the words of our great Apostle Paul , "the MAN Christ Jesus"

He was not FULLY GOD.. he was FULLY MAN with the FULNESS OF GOD IN HIM"

BUt you see God forsook him at calvary and there he was,, what he always was a man....

ano NO IT WAS NOT THE MAN CHRIST JESUS that raised Lazarus from the dead or else THAT SAME MAN would have healed Lazarus "before the time" ... but he had NO POWER that was not GIVEN TO HIM by his Father

I find it Ironic that an ALL KNOWING GOD would not even know when he was coming back to earth and admits to the same.....

He was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD,, full of power (granted unto him by GOD)....

A GOD needs NO ONE to GRANT him Power.. and yet he tells us "all power has been GIVEN unto me"

He was fully man.. with the FULNESS of GOD dwelling inside of him

While he was in a manger.. the angels gave glory to God who was still "in the highest" not in a manger

No MARY when you kissed the face of Jesus you DID NOT kiss the face of God... if so then the catholics can rightly call her "the mother of God"

[HeavenlyOne]

Vaughn believes exactly what scripture says that he "GOD was IN CHRIST" not that "GOD was in GOD"

again the words of our great Apostle Paul , "the MAN Christ Jesus"

He was not FULLY GOD.. he was FULLY MAN with the FULNESS OF GOD IN HIM"

BUt you see God forsook him at calvary and there he was,, what he always was a man....

ano NO IT WAS NOT THE MAN CHRIST JESUS that raised Lazarus from the dead or else THAT SAME MAN would have healed Lazarus "before the time" ... but he had NO POWER that was not GIVEN TO HIM by his Father

I find it Ironic that an ALL KNOWING GOD would not even know when he was coming back to earth and admits to the same.....

He was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD,, full of power (granted unto him by GOD)....

A GOD needs NO ONE to GRANT him Power.. and yet he tells us "all power has been GIVEN unto me"

He was fully man.. with the FULNESS of GOD dwelling inside of him

While he was in a manger.. the angels gave glory to God who was still "in the highest" not in a manger

No MARY when you kissed the face of Jesus you DID NOT kiss the face of God... if so then the catholics can rightly call her "the mother of God"

I think it's sad that you don't think Jesus was fully God.

I don't know what else to say concerning this admission by you.

[Baron1710]

And here you have it. Vaughn doesn't believe that Jesus was God while on earth, because if He was, then He also had a God, making two Gods.

Baron, I hope you realize what this guy is saying and he thinks you agree with him. I hope he's wrong in that.

What I said was Scriptural, I stand by what I said. I don't know what Dr. V believes about Christ and I'm not going to presume on two paragraphs what he means. If you want to discuss what I said that's fine but don't ask me to crawl inside Dr. V's mind. I believe Jesus was and is God. I also believe that while by adding humanity to Himself he limited himself to the role of a man while on earth, this is consistent with everything He said about himself and what Paul said in Philippians 2.

[HeavenlyOne]

What I said was Scriptural, I stand by what I said. I don't know what Dr. V believes about Christ and I'm not going to presume on two paragraphs what he means. If you want to discuss what I said that's fine but don't ask me to crawl inside Dr. V's mind. I believe Jesus was and is God. I also believe that while by adding humanity to Himself he limited himself to the role of a man while on earth, this is consistent with everything He said about himself and what Paul said in Philippians 2.

I agree. I'm still not sure why you thought I was saying anything different.;)

As for what Vaughn believes, see my sig line. It's his own words. No presumption needed.

[Dr. Vaughn]

I agree. I'm still not sure why you thought I was saying anything different.;)

As for what Vaughn believes, see my sig line. It's his own words. No presumption needed.

Love your new signature line, I see you have a flair for the dramatic,, thats kewl

Allow me to ask you a question....

If I am fully human, look like a human and walk like a human but I can fly like an eagle.. am I fully human?

Of course not, it is not in the biological makeup for a human to fly... now I am actually HUMAN & EAGLE.. thus I am NOT FULLY HUMAN

You cannot make JESUS FULLY GOD... unless he in and of himself had NO HUMAN LIMITIATIONS

God's cannot die on a cross.. God's cannot weep until blood flows.... humans can

Jesus was both man & GOD.. but he was not FULLY GOD

[Baron1710]

I agree. I'm still not sure why you thought I was saying anything different.;)

As for what Vaughn believes, see my sig line. It's his own words. No presumption needed.

Not to be argumentative but that's not what you said, and Dr. V clarified his statements further while I was posting. You said Jesus prayed as a man and raised people from the dead as God. I said He did all as a man submitted to God. Oneness people really struggle with the genuine humanity of Jesus. We got the God part down, but we struggle with the fact that He was a man, completely and He did nothing while on this earth of His own initiative.

[Praxeas]

I think it's sad that you don't think Jesus was fully God.

I don't know what else to say concerning this admission by you.
Not Pentecostal OR Oneness....sounds more like an adoptionist

[HeavenlyOne]

Not to be argumentative but that's not what you said, and Dr. V clarified his statements further while I was posting. You said Jesus prayed as a man and raised people from the dead as God. I said He did all as a man submitted to God. Oneness people really struggle with the genuine humanity of Jesus. We got the God part down, but we struggle with the fact that He was a man, completely and He did nothing while on this earth of His own initiative.

If He wasn't God, He would have stopped people from worshipping Him, but that never happened.

Even they could see that He was God while also being human. It's just as clear to me.

And yes. Dr. V certainly did clarify. He doesn't believe Jesus was totally God. He thinks it's impossible, meaning he also doesn't believe scripture that says with God, all things are possible.

[HeavenlyOne]

Not Pentecostal OR Oneness....sounds more like an adoptionist

Someone on this forum knows him personally and said he attends a Jesus name church.

I wonder if they know he doesn't believe Jesus was God while on earth.

[Praxeas]

Love your new signature line, I see you have a flair for the dramatic,, thats kewl

Allow me to ask you a question....

If I am fully human, look like a human and walk like a human but I can fly like an eagle.. am I fully human?

Yes, because you just said "If I am fully human"...it's not a philosophical contest anyways. It's a matter of what the word says. Is he human according the word? Yes. Is he God according to the Word? Yes. Can someone be only part human or Part God (not god)? No. Human is not a race or nationality...even someone that is half white and half black is fully human. So you are either fully human or not human at all...

But all that is irrelevant again. You aren't appealing to the word.

Jesus was both man & GOD.. but he was not FULLY GOD

That does not make sense. He is God. But he is not fully God? He is what then? 50% of God? Using your own analogy that still won't work. Can you be fully human and 50% eagle?

Again it's a matter of the word. He is never said to be 40 or 50 % God

[Praxeas]

Not to be argumentative but that's not what you said, and Dr. V clarified his statements further while I was posting. You said Jesus prayed as a man and raised people from the dead as God. I said He did all as a man submitted to God. Oneness people really struggle with the genuine humanity of Jesus. We got the God part down, but we struggle with the fact that He was a man, completely and He did nothing while on this earth of His own initiative.
No we don't struggle. I agree he did all that as a man or through his HUMAN nature only. But that was a result of the Kenosis. He was still God despite that fact.

[Baron1710]

No we don't struggle. I agree he did all that as a man or through his HUMAN nature only. But that was a result of the Kenosis. He was still God despite that fact.

We have no disagreement in our views. It has been my experience that most Oneness people do not understand the Kenosis, nor its implications and make statements like "He did this as a man and this as God."

[HeavenlyOne]

We have no disagreement in our views. It has been my experience that most Oneness people do not understand the Kenosis, nor its implications and make statements like "He did this as a man and this as God."

I agree to a certain degree. I don't believe Jesus prayed AS GOD in the garden, nor do I believe God died on the cross. Yet I know that Jesus was God while participating in those events. There is a difference, even if it's the same difference.

For me, it's difficult to state exactly what I mean and convey it clearly regarding how I see Jesus. I just know in my heart and mind who He is and that's what really matters.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Someone on this forum knows him personally and said he attends a Jesus name church.

I wonder if they know he doesn't believe Jesus was God while on earth.

Your someone is WRONG - I pastor two churches and attend those churches... I am supposing your statement was directed to me.. thanks

[Dr. Vaughn]

I agree to a certain degree. I don't believe Jesus prayed AS GOD in the garden, nor do I believe God died on the cross. Yet I know that Jesus was God while participating in those events. There is a difference, even if it's the same difference.

For me, it's difficult to state exactly what I mean and convey it clearly regarding how I see Jesus. I just know in my heart and mind who He is and that's what really matters.

but what we know in our heart and minds must line up with scripture... Muslims know in their heart and mind that Jesus was not even THE son of God but rather A Son of God.....

You are soo right , with God all things are possible except ONE THINg - He cannot lie and he cannot contradict himself... if he tells us that "HE ALONE IS GOD AND BESIDES HIM THERE IS NO OTHER" and then you elevate another man.. Christ Jesus to the status of the "PERSON OF GOD" you have now in effect created another GOD which opposes the Word of God?

Do you ever wonder why in all of Pauls prayers in the NT,, not one is ever directed to Christ.. but rather to THE FATHER? Why is that? Because his understanding of Godhead was not kilted by the Oneness movement or the Trinity movement.... He understood that Jesus was the only WAY TO THE FATHER or GOD -- and he credits Jesus with such......

[HeavenlyOne]

Your someone is WRONG - I pastor two churches and attend those churches... I am supposing your statement was directed to me.. thanks

You pastor two churches and teach that Jesus wasn't fully God, but instead a partial God or whatever?

What part of 'the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily' isn't in your Bible?

[HeavenlyOne]

but what we know in our heart and minds must line up with scripture... Muslims know in their heart and mind that Jesus was not even THE son of God but rather A Son of God.....

And you say He wasn't fully God. Got scripture for that, or is it just in your heart and mind?

You are soo right , with God all things are possible except ONE THINg - He cannot lie and he cannot contradict himself... if he tells us that "HE ALONE IS GOD AND BESIDES HIM THERE IS NO OTHER" and then you elevate another man.. Christ Jesus to the status of the "PERSON OF GOD" you have now in effect created another GOD which opposes the Word of God?

What part of 'the Word was made flesh' isn't in your Bible? Jesus being God doesn't make two Gods...God is omnipresent...He is everywhere all at once, not contained in one area and not in another.

Do you ever wonder why in all of Pauls prayers in the NT,, not one is ever directed to Christ.. but rather to THE FATHER? Why is that? Because his understanding of Godhead was not kilted by the Oneness movement or the Trinity movement.... He understood that Jesus was the only WAY TO THE FATHER or GOD -- and he credits Jesus with such......

Are you asserting that Paul didn't believe Jesus was God, or that Paul believed in persons of the Godhead?

Paul, like other oneness folks, recognized that Jesus was both God and man. Fully both.

[HeavenlyOne]

Your someone is WRONG - I pastor two churches and attend those churches... I am supposing your statement was directed to me.. thanks

And that would be YOUR someone.....kinfolk of your wife, in fact.

[Dr. Vaughn]

And that would be YOUR someone.....kinfolk of your wife, in fact.

Oh wonderful.. sorry outdated information that you've recieved

[Dr. Vaughn]

You pastor two churches and teach that Jesus wasn't fully God, but instead a partial God or whatever?

What part of 'the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily' isn't in your Bible?

I teach that GOD was fully God and that Jesus was his SON... I could have thought for sure the Bible also taught something like that....

[HeavenlyOne]

Oh wonderful.. sorry outdated information that you've recieved

I didn't see you correct her 'outdated information' on that thread. Why didn't you?

[HeavenlyOne]

I teach that GOD was fully God and that Jesus was his SON... I could have thought for sure the Bible also taught something like that....

So you are trinitarian or bitarian or whatever that word is?

[Dr. Vaughn]

You pastor two churches and teach that Jesus wasn't fully God, but instead a partial God or whatever?

What part of 'the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily' isn't in your Bible?

What part of the "fullness of the Godhead dwelt IN HIM bodily: do you not get?

Notice it never says HE WAS THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD but rather.. IN HIM...... dwelt the fullness... the fullness of the Godhead was also IN THE ARK OF THE COVENANT... but the ARK WAS NOT GOD.. the ARK was the HOUSE OF GOD... JESUS tells us that he is the DOOR to GOD.. and that no man can get TO GOD without coming through him.....

You cannot have ONE GOD praying to ANOTHER GOD in Gethsemanie it just will not dovetail with the scriptures.... You have a man praying to GOd his Father.. ad yet at the same time THAT MAN has yielded himself so completely until the FULNESS OF GOD dwells within him... and on Calvary you can watch that fulness of God.. LEAVE and FORSAKE HIM

[HeavenlyOne]

What part of the "fullness of the Godhead dwelt IN HIM bodily: do you not get?

Notice it never says HE WAS THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD but rather.. IN HIM...... dwelt the fullness... the fullness of the Godhead was also IN THE ARK OF THE COVENANT

Scripture. I insist.

... but the ARK WAS NOT GOD.. the ARK was the HOUSE OF GOD... JESUS tells us that he is the DOOR to GOD.. and that no man can get TO GOD without coming through him.....

You cannot have ONE GOD praying to ANOTHER GOD in Gethsemanie it just will not dovetail with the scriptures.... You have a man praying to GOd his Father.. ad yet at the same time THAT MAN has yielded himself so completely until the FULNESS OF GOD dwells within him... and on Calvary you can watch that fulness of God.. LEAVE and FORSAKE HIM

But didn't you say Jesus was God, just not fully God? Does a partial God pray to a fully God? How do you justify Jesus, who was God although not fully God, praying to God?

[HeavenlyOne]

So you are trinitarian or bitarian or whatever that word is?

bump

[Dr. Vaughn]

I didn't see you correct her 'outdated information' on that thread. Why didn't you?

Maam, I did.... I told you that I now pastor two churches,, no longer attend one... are you not computing?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Scripture. I insist.



But didn't you say Jesus was God, just not fully God? Does a partial God pray to a fully God? How do you justify Jesus, who was God although not fully God, praying to God?

As clearly as I know how... Jesus was not the Person of the one true God... he was the SON OF GOD... by virtue of being God son he would be divine... but he would not be the very person of Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddi, Elohim....

No, I am not Trinitarian, nor am I Oneness because I do not believe JEsus was his own Father...

I prefer no title but rather simply stating what scripture states.. there is ONE GOD and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST his Son

[HeavenlyOne]

Maam, I did.... I told you that I now pastor two churches,, no longer attend one... are you not computing?

Do me a favor and don't ever accuse me of being personal.

And no, you DID NOT correct her in that thread where she mentioned it. I even brought the thread back to current and NOT ONCE did you correct her.

You telling me on this thread isn't correcting her.

[HeavenlyOne]

As clearly as I know how... Jesus was not the Person of the one true God... he was the SON OF GOD... by virtue of being God son he would be divine... but he would not be the very person of Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddi, Elohim....

No, I am not Trinitarian, nor am I Oneness because I do not believe JEsus was his own Father...

I prefer no title but rather simply stating what scripture states.. there is ONE GOD and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST his Son

I pray that you start preaching the Bible to the two churches you pastor.

Have a nice life. I believe you and I are done here.

[Dr. Vaughn]

I pray that you start preaching the Bible to the two churches you pastor.

Have a nice life. I believe you and I are done here.

You can feel the love of God,,, its like a river in here.. blessings to you maam

[Praxeas]

So you are trinitarian or bitarian or whatever that word is?
He sounds Unitarian or adoptionist

[Praxeas]

What part of the "fullness of the Godhead dwelt IN HIM bodily: do you not get?

Notice it never says HE WAS THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD but rather.. IN HIM...... dwelt the fullness... the fullness of the Godhead was also IN THE ARK OF THE COVENANT... but the ARK WAS NOT GOD.. the ARK was the HOUSE OF GOD... JESUS tells us that he is the DOOR to GOD.. and that no man can get TO GOD without coming through him.....

You cannot have ONE GOD praying to ANOTHER GOD in Gethsemanie it just will not dovetail with the scriptures.... You have a man praying to GOd his Father.. ad yet at the same time THAT MAN has yielded himself so completely until the FULNESS OF GOD dwells within him... and on Calvary you can watch that fulness of God.. LEAVE and FORSAKE HIM
It also does not say the fullness of the Godhead dwelt IN HIS BODY.

But there are plenty of other verses that point to him being God and not merely being a man that God was inside of.

It's like saying in you dwells the mind of a Doctor

[Praxeas]

As clearly as I know how... Jesus was not the Person of the one true God... he was the SON OF GOD... by virtue of being God son he would be divine... but he would not be the very person of Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddi, Elohim....

No, I am not Trinitarian, nor am I Oneness because I do not believe JEsus was his own Father...

I prefer no title but rather simply stating what scripture states.. there is ONE GOD and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST his Son
Yup...not modalism...not Oneness...Unitarian.

Almost Arian too since he is saying Jesus is divine (not with a capital D) and is someone other than God (Yahweh)...which is close to Arianism. The difference is Dr V did not say Jesus used to be Michael the ark angel

[HeavenlyOne]

Yup...not modalism...not Oneness...Unitarian.

Almost Arian too since he is saying Jesus is divine (not with a capital D) and is someone other than God (Yahweh)...which is close to Arianism. The difference is Dr V did not say Jesus used to be Michael the ark angel

Thanks, Prax. I don't know much about the different flavors of Godhead beliefs.

[MissBrattified]

John 11:4 - When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death

and yet Lazarus died... or if he didnt really die then he wasnt really ressurected

I think you're taking His statement way too literally.

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

The context reads more about the purpose of Lazarus' death, not the reality of it.

He died, but Jesus resurrected Him, therefore His sickness as a means to an end was not to death, but to present an opportunity for God to be glorified. That's how I understand it, anyway.

[HeavenlyOne]

I think you're taking His statement way too literally.

John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

The context reads more about the purpose of Lazarus' death, not the reality of it.

He died, but Jesus resurrected Him, therefore His sickness as a means to an end was not to death, but to present an opportunity for God to be glorified. That's how I understand it, anyway.

Brat, according to him, it was impossible for Jesus to heal Lazarus because Jesus isn't fully God.

[MissBrattified]

Brat, according to him, it was impossible for Jesus to heal Lazarus because Jesus isn't fully God.

Heal or resurrect? We know that Jesus healed others....so the "impossibility...because Jesus isn't fully God" would have to apply to more than just Lazarus.

John 12:1 "Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead."

I think people forget sometimes that Jesus was sharp-witted, and often spoke in riddles, with sarcasm, or was rather patronizing to those who questioned Him or doubted Him. Not every scriptural quote of His words can be taken literally.

In the story of the ruler's daughter, the men state that she is dead and the he (the ruler) shouldn't "bother the Master", but when Jesus arrived, He told the mourners that she was only asleep. They laughed, but He raised her up anyway. Now, are we to conclude that she wasn't really dead to begin with? And that He went all the way to the house to rouse her out of a nice nap? Or was He chiding these people to quit doubting Him, because as far as her state was relative to HIS power, she was only sleeping?

[HeavenlyOne]

Heal or resurrect? We know that Jesus healed others....so the "impossibility...because Jesus isn't fully God" would have to apply to more than just Lazarus.

Both. He doesn't credit Jesus for raising Lazarus, but God, who worked through Jesus....he implied that it wasn't much different than God working through any of us.

John 12:1 "Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead."

I think people forget sometimes that Jesus was sharp-witted, and often spoke in riddles, with sarcasm, or was rather patronizing to those who questioned Him or doubted Him. Not every scriptural quote of His words can be taken literally.

In the story of the ruler's daughter, the men state that she is dead and the he (the ruler) shouldn't "bother the Master", but when Jesus arrived, He told the mourners that she was only asleep. They laughed, but He raised her up anyway. Now, are we to conclude that she wasn't really dead to begin with? And that He went all the way to the house to rouse her out of a nice nap? Or was He chiding these people to quit doubting Him, because as far as her state was relative to HIS power, she was only sleeping?

I agree. Read my sig line....it's his exact quotes in regard to Jesus being God. Weird...I've never heard anyone consider Jesus to be a God Jr. of sorts...

But I like the way you put your last paragraph concerning the words of Jesus, and I agree. He even said that Lazarus was sleeping too, then had to plainly tell Mary (or Martha, can't remember now) that he was dead when they insisted he was.

[Praxeas]

Thanks, Prax. I don't know much about the different flavors of Godhead beliefs.
Well I see Dr V has dropped off the face of the planet.

Anyways, as much as I think he gave me a bum rap I hope he does not stay away. But I will say that I disagree with him and I will continue to refute his doctrine, his accusations against Oneness Pentecostals and point out that his posting styles are often no different than the ones he complains about (oh can you feel the love you voodoo wanna be Pentecostals?)

But I have to say this upon reading his words that he is NOT Oneness, not even Modalist. His view of the godhead is closer to Arianism or Unitarianism. Jesus is NOT Divine but divine. He is not Fully God but god it seems.

Nor is he Pentecostal, which historically is a group that taught and practiced that tongues in Acts is evidence of the initial baptism of the Spirit and not merely one of several gifts one can have. Simply saying "I speak in tongues" does not mean anything.

Charismatics spoke in tongues too, but they had a different doctrinal position on what and why and how etc etc.

Dr V also claims every service in the bible lacked worship and other Pentecostal features....he claims there were many such instances yet he only points to one instance. Can he find more? I doubt it. Then he claims by an argument from silence that since Luke does not record anything else happening that nothing else happened. If you were to use the same sort of logic Dr V would have pointed it out to you so I am wondering why he does. IN fact several times I pointed this out and without any personal attack he ignored each post. That is fine too since my post stands unrefuted.

What Dr V is doing is a circular argument. He starts with his assertion that church services lack these other things we do and uses that unproven assertion as the basis of making his argument that when the church gathered to pray or do other things that those were in fact NOT "Church services"....according to HIS defintion.

This is a form of logical fallacy called Circular reasoning
1. Begging the Question ( petitio principii ) / Circular Reasoning
DEFINITION: The truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises. Often, the conclusion is simply restated in the premises in a slightly different form. In more difficult cases, the premise is a consequence of the conclusion. Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.
1. Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
2. Claim C (the conclusion) is true.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."
Some cases of question begging are fairly blatant, while others can be extremely subtle.
EXAMPLE: "Since Picard is a better captain than Kirk, Kirk is not the superior captain."
PROOF: Show that in order to believe that the premises are true we must already agree that the conclusion is true.

most of the time Dr V starts off with his assertion stated as a fact that we all agree on. This is fallacious

[HeavenlyOne]

Well I see Dr V has dropped off the face of the planet.

Anyways, as much as I think he gave me a bum rap I hope he does not stay away. But I will say that I disagree with him and I will continue to refute his doctrine, his accusations against Oneness Pentecostals and point out that his posting styles are often no different than the ones he complains about (oh can you feel the love you voodoo wanna be Pentecostals?)

But I have to say this upon reading his words that he is NOT Oneness, not even Modalist. His view of the godhead is closer to Arianism or Unitarianism. Jesus is NOT Divine but divine. He is not Fully God but god it seems.

Nor is he Pentecostal, which historically is a group that taught and practiced that tongues in Acts is evidence of the initial baptism of the Spirit and not merely one of several gifts one can have. Simply saying "I speak in tongues" does not mean anything.

Charismatics spoke in tongues too, but they had a different doctrinal position on what and why and how etc etc.

Dr V also claims every service in the bible lacked worship and other Pentecostal features....he claims there were many such instances yet he only points to one instance. Can he find more? I doubt it. Then he claims by an argument from silence that since Luke does not record anything else happening that nothing else happened. If you were to use the same sort of logic Dr V would have pointed it out to you so I am wondering why he does. IN fact several times I pointed this out and without any personal attack he ignored each post. That is fine too since my post stands unrefuted.

What Dr V is doing is a circular argument. He starts with his assertion that church services lack these other things we do and uses that unproven assertion as the basis of making his argument that when the church gathered to pray or do other things that those were in fact NOT "Church services"....according to HIS defintion.

This is a form of logical fallacy called Circular reasoning
1. Begging the Question ( petitio principii ) / Circular Reasoning
DEFINITION: The truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises. Often, the conclusion is simply restated in the premises in a slightly different form. In more difficult cases, the premise is a consequence of the conclusion. Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.
1. Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
2. Claim C (the conclusion) is true.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."
Some cases of question begging are fairly blatant, while others can be extremely subtle.
EXAMPLE: "Since Picard is a better captain than Kirk, Kirk is not the superior captain."
PROOF: Show that in order to believe that the premises are true we must already agree that the conclusion is true.

most of the time Dr V starts off with his assertion stated as a fact that we all agree on. This is fallacious

Great points. Now I understand better why I shouldn't spar with you...LOL!

[Praxeas]

Great points. Now I understand better why I shouldn't spar with you...LOL!
lol