What really happened at Pentecost?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Option #1 - An ole time, Holy Ghost campmeeting with shouting & Speaking in Tongues,, Praising God and having a good ole time

Option #2 - The most effective missionary outreach in the history of the church

I choose #2 and here is why...

Not one time are we told anyone was Praise God on this day.. there is nothing about Magnifying God or any sign whatsoever that this was a church service...

Here's what I see..... of course you will tell me where I'm wrong.. good


Here is where the story begins:

Luke 24:47 - And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This is Jesus speaking to his followers about their upcoming mission... they are to preach the gospel to ALL NATIONS.. which will happen or begin at Jerusalem

In the course of conversation with Jesus, they must have felt the burden of this heavy responsibility, after all they did not speak the languages of the nations.... Jesus knowing their fear says this to them


And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.



They were told to go and wait in Jerusalem until they recieved ABILITY (the original for power in this scripture) they would receive a supernatural ability to reach the nations at Jerusalem and this ability would come to them from on high... delivered unto them by the Holy Ghost

So, what happens next? they went and they waited.. this was a time of waiting.. I can only imagine their wondering how they would be able to speak to all the nations about the gospel......

BUt God was up to something.. there was only ONE TIME a year when all the nations gathered at Jerusalem... for the Feast of Pentecost... and GOD KNEW that this would be the time to affect the most people with the gospel...

So they wait and wait... until they heard a sound and languages rested upon them (tongues in the original is languages) so languages of fire rested upon them.....

and immediatly we see that they began to speak in foreign languages that they had never learned... they were ecstatic I am sure to see the ABILITY come upon them to obey the words of Jesus, supernaturally...

Please note they were not speaking in tongues as Pentecostals do because Paul said "if one speaks in tongues he speaks unto God and not unto man and NO MAN could understand him:" but these men gathered around and UNDERSTOOD THEM...

So what did these foreigners hear these disciples saying? They were preaching of the wonderful works of God,, which was the death burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ,.,,, they were testifying of these works supernaturally in other languages.. there was no one shouting and screaminga and rolling in the floors......

finally when they couldn't figure out how these diciples had gained this ability to break the language barrier. they attribute this to some kind of new wine and then Peter.... stood to deliver the theology of the situation as he told them of Joels prophecy and once they understood they came to know Christ....

Is this not the correct understanding of Acts 2?

[Lucy Van Pelt]

Hey!

What, sir, did you do before posting on AFF?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Typical response.... a scriptural response would have been appreciated

[TRFrance]

Option #1 - An ole time, Holy Ghost campmeeting with shouting & Speaking in Tongues,, Praising God and having a good ole time

Option #2 - The most effective missionary outreach in the history of the church

I choose #2 and here is why...

Not one time are we told anyone was Praise God on this day.. there is nothing about Magnifying God or any sign whatsoever that this was a church service...

Here's what I see..... of course you will tell me where I'm wrong..

(Doc...this is the only thing I'm going to post on this thread... here goes):

Acts 2:11 ...Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Most people would call that "praise", and "magnifying God".
Peace.
.
.
.
.
By the way, Doc... do you have a hobby? :happydance

[Lucy Van Pelt]

Typical response.... a scriptural response would have been appreciated

Would it have helped if I said, "yea, I say unto thee" before my question?

Have a little fun sonny!

[Sam]

Over 500 believers saw Jesus after His resurrection. (1 Cor 15:6)

About 120 of these (approximately one fourth of the infant church) were in Jerusalem "continually in the temple praising and blessing God" (Luke 24:52-53)

They (we assume the 120 but some think it refers to the 12 apostles only) were all in one accord and in one place when the wind and fire came and they began to speak with other tongues. About 15 languages are mentioned that were understood by different people.

Peter stood up and preached a message in a commonly understood language.

When the Holy Spirit convicted people, they asked what they should do. Peter told them to repent or turn from the sin of rejecting Jesus as Messiah, to wash in the mikveh baths in the temple because their sins were forgiven, and told them that they too could receive the promise of the Father which they had seen and heard.

We are told that about 3000 Jews received the Word (Jesus) and were immersed. We don't read about how many, if any, received the Holy Ghost baptism.

Some folks (called Dispensationalists) believe that the 120 were not really saved until that day and that this was the beginning of the New Testament Church.

[Dr. Vaughn]

(Doc...this is the only thing I'm going to post on this thread... here goes):

Acts 2:11 ...Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Most people would call that "praise", and "magnifying God".
Peace.
.
.
.
.
By the way, Doc... do you have a hobby? :happydance

Wait a minute.... for you and I to SPEAK about Jesus who is the Wonderful work of God.... is not PRAISING.. we are speaking we are testifying

[Cindy]

He's stuck in the hospital with a sick wife. We are praying she is healed soon. But actually DV didn't start the debate about Mr. Barnham or whatever his name is. There was a thread started before he got here. Which makes me think, this seems to happen a lot on AFF speak of someone and either they or their minions, followers, or whatever you want to call them seem to just show up.........and the rest is this outcome.
Since people won't ignore him, he will not go away.
It's giving me a headache.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Over 500 believers saw Jesus after His resurrection. (1 Cor 15:6)

About 120 of these (approximately one fourth of the infant church) were in Jerusalem "continually in the temple praising and blessing God" (Luke 24:52-53)

They (we assume the 120 but some think it refers to the 12 apostles only) were all in one accord and in one place when the wind and fire came and they began to speak with other tongues. About 15 languages are mentioned that were understood by different people.

Peter stood up and preached a message in a commonly understood language.

When the Holy Spirit convicted people, they asked what they should do. Peter told them to repent or turn from the sin of rejecting Jesus as Messiah, to wash in the mikveh baths in the temple because their sins were forgiven, and told them that they too could receive the promise of the Father which they had seen and heard.

We are told that about 3000 Jews received the Word (Jesus) and were immersed. We don't read about how many, if any, received the Holy Ghost baptism.

Some folks (called Dispensationalists) believe that the 120 were not really saved until that day and that this was the beginning of the New Testament Church.

Bro. Sam if they obeyed Peter that had to receive the Holy Ghost because he told them if they repented and were baptized that the WOULD without a doubt receive the Holy Ghost.... so how do we say "we don't know" if they did.. they must have it was promised to them upon their obedience

[Dr. Vaughn]

He's stuck in the hospital with a sick wife. We are praying she is healed soon. But actually DV didn't start the debate about Mr. Barnham or whatever his name is. There was a thread started before he got here. Which makes me think, this seems to happen a lot on AFF speak of someone and either they or their minions, followers, or whatever you want to call them seem to just show up.........and the rest is this outcome.
Since people won't ignore him, he will not go away.
It's giving me a headache.

Maam if you desire me to go away.. I can.. i thought this was an open discussion forum,, I didnt know you had to think like everyone else to be welcome here

[Lucy Van Pelt]

He's stuck in the hospital with a sick wife. We are praying she is healed soon. But actually DV didn't start the debate about Mr. Barnham or whatever his name is. There was a thread started before he got here. Which makes me think, this seems to happen a lot on AFF speak of someone and either they or their minions, followers, or whatever you want to call them seem to just show up.........and the rest is this outcome.
Since people won't ignore him, he will not go away.
It's giving me a headache.

If he talks this much to his wife, I bet she's glad he found AFF so she can rest.

I do hope and pray all is well with your wife.

[Neck]

Typical response.... a scriptural response would have been appreciated

Look at where not praising God got Lucifer.

He went from praising to wanting to be praised.

Now he has a one-way ticket to hell.

So if to praise is the oposite of hell.

Then I am all for praising God at anytime.

[Baron1710]

(Doc...this is the only thing I'm going to post on this thread... here goes):

Acts 2:11 ...Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Most people would call that "praise", and "magnifying God".
Peace.
.
.
.
.
By the way, Doc... do you have a hobby? :happydance

Wait a minute.... for you and I to SPEAK about Jesus who is the Wonderful work of God.... is not PRAISING.. we are speaking we are testifying

Anybody see a difference here? works v work hmmmmm

[Cindy]

If he talks this much to his wife, I bet she's glad he found AFF so she can rest.

I do hope and pray all is well with your wife.

I think he's probably a psyhologist and likes playing with people's minds and not use punctuation or grammar well. Still gives me a headache. So I am gonna ignore him to see if he will go away.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Anybody see a difference here? works v work hmmmmm

hey brother,,, please decode for me,, thanks

[Sam]

Bro. Sam if they obeyed Peter that had to receive the Holy Ghost because he told them if they repented and were baptized that the WOULD without a doubt receive the Holy Ghost.... so how do we say "we don't know" if they did.. they must have it was promised to them upon their obedience

If they received the Word/Jesus, they were born of the Spirit and placed/baptized into the Body of Christ but that does not mean that they were baptized/saturated in the Spirit.

In Mark 16 it says that one of the signs that would follow believers is "they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." How many people have had hands laid on them and didn't recover. Healing is a promise and so is the Holy Ghost baptism but neither are always instantly received.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Look at where not praising God got Lucifer.

He went from praising to wanting to be praised.

Now he has a one-way ticket to hell.

So if to praise is the oposite of hell.

Then I am all for praising God at anytime.

Now brother, that was about deep

[Dr. Vaughn]

If they received the Word/Jesus, they were born of the Spirit and placed/baptized into the Body of Christ but that does not mean that they were baptized/saturated in the Spirit.

In Mark 16 it says that one of the signs that would follow believers is "they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." How many people have had hands laid on them and didn't recover. Healing is a promise and so is the Holy Ghost baptism but neither are always instantly received.

Bro. it also says "they shall be witnesses" How many tongue talkers do you know that couldn't witness if they had to.. be honest... so see the point is useless

[Rico]

I think he's probably a psyhologist and likes playing with people's minds and not use punctuation or grammar well. Still gives me a headache. So I am gonna ignore him to see if he will go away.

Where ye leads I will follow (after today), where ye leads I will follow.
Where ye leads I will follow (after today), where ye leads I will follow.
I'll not answer..........again!



:choir:choir:choir

[Dr. Vaughn]

If they received the Word/Jesus, they were born of the Spirit and placed/baptized into the Body of Christ but that does not mean that they were baptized/saturated in the Spirit.

In Mark 16 it says that one of the signs that would follow believers is "they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." How many people have had hands laid on them and didn't recover. Healing is a promise and so is the Holy Ghost baptism but neither are always instantly received.

So Bro. Sam is it now your believe that people are in the Body of Christ without the baptism of the Holy Ghost? they are all saved, why need the baptism?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Something scriptural to show me where my understanding is wrong would be appreciated.. instead of all the low blows and personal insults

I have not been personal with any of you... the issues are worthy of debate

[Baron1710]

Wait a minute.... for you and I to SPEAK about Jesus who is the Wonderful work of God.... is not PRAISING.. we are speaking we are testifying

Not too much to decode Lyle Story would be so ashamed. you used the word "work" and said it refered to Christ, but the Scriture uses the word "works" plural, not one work but many.

[Cindy]

Where ye leads I will follow (after today), where ye leads I will follow.
Where ye leads I will follow (after today), where ye leads I will follow.
I'll not answer..........again!



:choir:choir:choir

:happydance :happydance :happydance

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

[Dr. Vaughn]

Not too much to decode Lyle Story would be so ashamed. you used the word "work" and said it refered to Christ, but the Scriture uses the word "works" plural, not one worm but many.

it was a typo.. I'l pass the word to J. Lyle

[Sam]

So Bro. Sam is it now your believe that people are in the Body of Christ without the baptism of the Holy Ghost? they are all saved, why need the baptism?

In my opinion, the 500 believers who saw Jesus after His resurrection were saved. But only about 120 were waiting in Jerusalem for an experience called:
--being "clothed" or "endued" with power (Luke 24:49)
--receiving power to be witnesses (Acts 1:8)
--the Holy Spirit coming upon them (Acts 1:8)
--the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4)
--a baptism or immersion in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)
--a filling of the Spirit (Acts 2:4)

What I am saying, and it is a minority opinion on this board, is that there is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being baptized in the Spirit i.e. that there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit dwelling within (salvation/regeneration) and the Holy Spirit coming upon (Holy Ghost baptism or empowerment).

We may or may not agree on this. There are differences of opinion among us here on the board on this, but this minority viewpoint is allowed on this board and is considered Apostolic.

[Neck]

Now brother, that was about deep


In Gen 1:1 God reveals himself.

In Reveleations 21:20-21

It talks about Jesus coming quickly.

Then the bible closes out by saying, "The grace of Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all. A-men.

As if man had screwed things up so badly, "The grace of of the Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all. A-men.

You know why God did not create man first here on earth?

We would have taken credit for the rest of creation.

But as it stands many want to eliminate God from creation because of man's highminded stance, thinking we are at the top of the chain.

Makes me wonder when nature decides to take out a 100,000 in one wave.

God reminds us we are not at the top.

We can argue all the pages between Gen and Rev but God reminds us, ?My grace be with you!" A-men.

Makes me think God is saying, Go ahead man - Make my day!

[Dr. Vaughn]

In Gen 1:1 God reveals himself.

In Reveleations 21:20-21

It talks about Jesus coming quickly.

Then the bible closes out by saying, "The grace of Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all. A-men.

As if man had screwed things up so badly, "The grace of of the Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all. A-men.

You know why God did not create man first here on earth?

We would have taken credit for the rest of creation.

But as it stands many want to eliminate God from creation because of man's highminded stance, thinking we are at the top of the chain.

Makes me wonder when nature decides to take out a 100,000 in one wave.

God reminds us we are not at the top.

We can argue all the pages between Gen and Rev but God reminds us, ?My grace be with you!" A-men.

Makes me think God is saying, Go ahead man - Make my day!


What did that have to do with Pentecost?

[revrandy]

What was the reason for their Drunken behavior??


Seeing that Peter pointed that out?

These men are NOT drunk as ye supposed?...

Seems to me there was something going on...

[Dr. Vaughn]

In my opinion, the 500 believers who saw Jesus after His resurrection were saved. But only about 120 were waiting in Jerusalem for an experience called:
--being "clothed" or "endued" with power (Luke 24:49)
--receiving power to be witnesses (Acts 1:8)
--the Holy Spirit coming upon them (Acts 1:8)
--the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4)
--a baptism or immersion in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)
--a filling of the Spirit (Acts 2:4)

What I am saying, and it is a minority opinion on this board, is that there is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being baptized in the Spirit i.e. that there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit dwelling within (salvation/regeneration) and the Holy Spirit coming upon (Holy Ghost baptism or empowerment).

We may or may not agree on this. There are differences of opinion among us here on the board on this, but this minority viewpoint is allowed on this board and is considered Apostolic.

Bro. Sam,, it's good to know I am not the only one who holds the minority view... I believe as well that many will be saved without the baptism of the Holy Ghost...However, I believe they will have to endure tribulation to be tried by fire whether their works be of God or not....

[Sam]

What did that have to do with Pentecost?

some believe that Pentecost was the second coming of Jesus

that He returned in clouds of witnesses as the Comforter or Holy Spirit.

[Sam]

Bro. Sam,, it's good to know I am not the only one who holds the minority view... I believe as well that many will be saved without the baptism of the Holy Ghost...However, I believe they will have to endure tribulation to be tried by fire whether their works be of God or not....

We've got a variety of views here on the forum.
The term "Apostolic" is pretty broad here (at least to some)

[Dr. Vaughn]

What was the reason for their Drunken behavior??


Seeing that Peter pointed that out?

These men are NOT drunk as ye supposed?...

Seems to me there was something going on...

RevRandy,,, we have discussed it over and over

Lets try again.... the DRUNKEN had NOTHING to do with how they were acting.. reading scripture SLOWLY we see that the DRUNKEN was brought up as a possible reason they had broken the language barrier... scripture says

How do all of these men speak these languages..... not whats got them people acting crazy and shouting and running.... no,, it was because of the languages being spoken.. the the word NEW WINE was ever brought up.. and then Peter hearing them call this supernatual languages possibly NEW WINE.. he corrected them publically and said

These are NOT DRUNK ---- not because of how they were acting but because of the languages they were speaking

[Dr. Vaughn]

We've got a variety of views here on the forum.
The term "Apostolic" is pretty broad here (at least to some)

Unfortunately some views are not as welcome as others

[revrandy]

So what's the point?

[Rico]

some believe that Pentecost was the second coming of Jesus

that He returned in clouds of witnesses as the Comforter or Holy Spirit.

I entertained that belief for a time until I read letters that were written after Pentecost that talked about Him coming back in a future sense.

[Dr. Vaughn]

So what's the point?

The point is.. if you take away the Myth of the Day of Pentecost and its loud, demonstrative shouting and speaking in tongues and acting drunk... you take away the very identity of the pentecostal movement and their scriptural evidence for how they act

[Dr. Vaughn]

I entertained that belief for a time until I read letters that were written after Pentecost that talked about Him coming back in a future sense.

Rico.. I've not heard that doctrine,,, does it have a name,, would like to research it.. thanks

[Sam]

Bro. Sam,, it's good to know I am not the only one who holds the minority view... I believe as well that many will be saved without the baptism of the Holy Ghost...However, I believe they will have to endure tribulation to be tried by fire whether their works be of God or not....

The "minority view" here is that a person is justified/saved/regenerated at repentance and then that is (or at least should be) followed up by water baptism and Spirit baptism. This was how it was taught by the early Apostolic/Pentecostal pioneers and was later held as a minority opinion when the UPC was formed in 1945.

Here we use terms like "PCI" or "one-stepper" and "PAJC" or "three-stepper" to designate the differences between those who believe in salvation at repentance and those who believe salvation does not happen until after repentance, water baptism, and Spirit baptism. If you're around for a while you'll see arguments back and forth on that. After we get done arguing and getting mad and insulting each other and calling names we just continue on as "one-steppers" and "three-steppers" until the subject comes up again.

[revrandy]

The point is.. if you take away the Myth of the Day of Pentecost and its loud, demonstrative shouting and speaking in tongues and acting drunk... you take away the very identity of the pentecostal movement and their scriptural evidence for how they act

What's wrong with Worship and Praise?

Folks were doing this long before the Day of Pentecost.....

[Dr. Vaughn]

The "minority view" here is that a person is justified/saved/regenerated at repentance and then that is (or at least should be) followed up by water baptism and Spirit baptism. This was how it was taught by the early Apostolic/Pentecostal pioneers and was later held as a minority opinion when the UPC was formed in 1945.

Here we use terms like "PCI" or "one-stepper" and "PAJC" or "three-stepper" to designate the differences between those who believe in salvation at repentance and those who believe salvation does not happen until after repentance, water baptism, and Spirit baptism. If you're around for a while you'll see arguments back and forth on that. After we get done arguing and getting mad and insulting each other and calling names we just continue on as "one-steppers" and "three-steppers" until the subject comes up again.

NOW DATS FUNNY

[Dr. Vaughn]

What's wrong with Worship and Praise?

Folks were doing this long before the Day of Pentecost.....

Then call your movement Judaic or something besides Pentecostal because nothing happened on the Day of Pentecost that is used to endorse Pentecostalism..... and you won't find much emphasis on Praise & worship after Paul set the church in order

[Sam]

Rico.. I've not heard that doctrine,,, does it have a name,, would like to research it.. thanks

I've heard it preached on the radio by a Jesus' Name preacher about 50 years ago here in Cincinnati. I don't know what the doctrine is called, maybe a form of Preterism or modalism? Sorta like Superman couldn't show up until Clark Kent disappeared, the Holy Ghost couldn't be here until Jesus the Son disappeared.

[Rico]

Rico.. I've not heard that doctrine,,, does it have a name,, would like to research it.. thanks

It isn't something anyone taught me or that I read about. Shortly after receiving the revelation of who Jesus is I thought that because Jesus was God and God was the Spirit that it meant that Him filling those saints on the day of Pentecost was actually His second coming. It was only after I dug a little deeper in the Word that I realized His second coming is referred to as a future event in letters that were written after Pentecost. It was an error in logic on my part due to being a novice in the Word.

[Neck]

What did that have to do with Pentecost?

Nothing at all.

Just sharing with you the state and nature of man.

From the Garden to Revelations.

[revrandy]

Then call your movement Judaic or something besides Pentecostal because nothing happened on the Day of Pentecost that is used to endorse Pentecostalism..... and you won't find much emphasis on Praise & worship after Paul set the church in order

Then would you mind holding my mule?


:D

[JN Anderson]

Option #1 - An ole time, Holy Ghost campmeeting with shouting & Speaking in Tongues,, Praising God and having a good ole time

Option #2 - The most effective missionary outreach in the history of the church



This is typically called a strawman argument. An accurate interpretation of Acts does not necessarily preclude either one or two. Neither do many see it as "an ole time, Holy Ghost campmeeting etc," Strawmen don't last long. Just read the first few posts.

[TRFrance]

(deleted)

[Praxeas]

Option #1 - An ole time, Holy Ghost campmeeting with shouting & Speaking in Tongues,, Praising God and having a good ole time

Option #2 - The most effective missionary outreach in the history of the church

I choose #2 and here is why...

More logical fallacies...in this case you give limited answers that we have to choose from. What makes this even more insane is that nobody argued it was a Holy Ghost campmeeting. However it IS true they were praising God...in case you did not read the entire context they were together daily in prayer...in one place and one accord. And in tongues they were praising God by making mention of His wonderful deeds. They were NOT NOT NOT preaching the gospel to them. That was what Peter did AFTER the fact.

Two things happened, which two things Jesus commanded.

1) they waited for the promise of the Father, which they got when they were filled

2) They preached repentance and remission of sins in Jesus name, which Peter did AFTER they received the promise.

[jaxfam6]

(Doc...this is the only thing I'm going to post on this thread... here goes):

Acts 2:11 ...Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Most people would call that "praise", and "magnifying God".
Peace.
.
.
.
.
By the way, Doc... do you have a hobby? :happydance

Don't forget the part about them not being drunk as ye suppose.
And I also am done on this post.

[WyoPastor]

:itsover:itsover:itsover

:beatdeadhorse:beatdeadhorse:beatdeadhorse

[Joelel]

NOW DATS FUNNY

No that's not funny,fact is we all say were filled with the Holy Ghost and according to the scripture the Holy Ghost is suppose to be teaching us all truth. So most is missing it.

[Joelel]

Fact is,they were being a witness when the Holy Ghost came on them.

Acts 1:7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is when Peter started preaching,what did he say ?

Acts 2:14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16: But this (THIS WHAT ? THIS TONGUE TALKING) is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

This tongue talking was them giving prophecy in several different tongues,yes they were witnessing by prophecy in tongues.

17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy


Amen

[Praxeas]

Then call your movement Judaic or something besides Pentecostal because nothing happened on the Day of Pentecost that is used to endorse Pentecostalism..... and you won't find much emphasis on Praise & worship after Paul set the church in order
What tripe. Pentecostal...the denomination..is based on the view that speaking in tongues occurs when one is first filled with the Holy Ghost and that is what happened on the day of Pentecost. You are not proving your assertion or disproving what others are saying by making such absurd statements like this

[Brother Price]

Then call your movement Judaic or something besides Pentecostal because nothing happened on the Day of Pentecost that is used to endorse Pentecostalism..... and you won't find much emphasis on Praise & worship after Paul set the church in order

Excuse me?! You must be reading a Bible with pages torn out. The Bible speaks volumes about praise and worship. But, this is again from a man who avows the teachings of a backslidden false prophet and liar.

[shag]

Option #1 - An ole time, Holy Ghost campmeeting with shouting & Speaking in Tongues,, Praising God and having a good ole time

Option #2 - The most effective missionary outreach in the history of the church

I choose #2 and here is why...

1)Not one time are we told anyone was Praise God on this day.. there is nothing about Magnifying God or any sign whatsoever that this was a church service...

Here's what I see..... of course you will tell me where I'm wrong.. good


Here is where the story begins:

Luke 24:47 - And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This is Jesus speaking to his followers about their upcoming mission... they are to preach the gospel to ALL NATIONS.. which will happen or begin at Jerusalem

2 )In the course of conversation with Jesus, they must have felt the burden of this heavy responsibility, after all they did not speak the languages of the nations.... Jesus knowing their fear says this to them


And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.



3.)They were told to go and wait in Jerusalem until they recieved ABILITY (the original for power in this scripture) they would receive a supernatural ability to reach the nations at Jerusalem and this ability would come to them from on high... delivered unto them by the Holy Ghost

4.)So, what happens next? they went and they waited.. this was a time of waiting.. I can only imagine their wondering how they would be able to speak to all the nations about the gospel......

BUt God was up to something.. there was only ONE TIME a year when all the nations gathered at Jerusalem... for the Feast of Pentecost... and GOD KNEW that this would be the time to affect the most people with the gospel...

So they wait and wait... until they heard a sound and languages rested upon them (tongues in the original is languages) so languages of fire rested upon them.....

5.)and immediatly we see that they began to speak in foreign languages that they had never learned... they were ecstatic I am sure to see the ABILITY come upon them to obey the words of Jesus, supernaturally...

6.)Please note they were not speaking in tongues as Pentecostals do because Paul said "if one speaks in tongues he speaks unto God and not unto man and NO MAN could understand him:" but these men gathered around and UNDERSTOOD THEM...

7.)So what did these foreigners hear these disciples saying? They were preaching of the wonderful works of God,, which was the death burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ,.,,, they were testifying of these works supernaturally in other languages.. there was no one shouting and screaminga and rolling in the floors......

8.)finally when they couldn't figure out how these diciples had gained this ability to break the language barrier. they attribute this to some kind of new wine and then Peter.... stood to deliver the theology of the situation as he told them of Joels prophecy and once they understood they came to know Christ....

Is this not the correct understanding of Acts 2?



Mr. Vaughn, I have numbered some of your quotes here from your opening post, to help deal with each opinion. Here are my responses.

#1.) Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. (You wrote in #8 that they were preaching, the bible reads that they were Speaking the wonderful works of God. (which IMO,is praise, whether "the works" is about the gospel, as you stated, or not)
and if they were preaching the gospel to the crowd, as you wrote in #7, why did they need Peter to preach it to them again?
Peter did the preaching, NOT the people as you wrote in #7.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church(body of believers) daily such as should be saved.

#2.) This is your opinion, in which I respect. Do you have scripture for it? or are you just drawing a conclusion that they we're overwhelmed wondering how they we're gonna reach the world when they don't know everyone's language? (without any scripure)

3.)You wrote that they were told that they would receive a supernatural ability TO reach nations.
They WERE actually told that they would receive "power" after the Spirit had come upon them AND they shall be witnesses....(you put in the "to", I'll leave it as "and", which, IMO means along with receiving that Spirit, you shall be witnesses....
So according to what you wrote, I assume you believe the "Power" of the Spirit was ONLY for the speaking in another language to witness?
I personally believe the "power" that comes with receiving his Spirit, is for more than just to be witnesses by speaking in another language.
I believe it to be for being a Godly example as a witness, or to have power to overcome the enemy of this world, overcome our fleshly desires, etc.

#4) Again this is your opinion of what must have been going thru their head: The burden of how they were gonna reach the world not knowing all the world's language. Please tell which scripture you use to build such intense burden and conviction upon the disciples, of them wondering how they're gonna reach the world, not knowing their language.

#5) This is your opinion used to paint your picture, which I respect, but is there any scripture for it as well?

#6) Let me get this straight, in #7 you said the people were preaching to the listeners about the gospel, yet in #6, you say they were speaking to God (according to Paul's writing)but the men gathered and understood them.
So they were speaking to God about the gospel that he already knew about since he designed it from the foundation of the world,then the people understood what the tongue talkers were saying to God, so then they were getting preached to (of the gospel)? ?? Please untangle/explain this.

#7) No shouting, screaming, and rolling around in floors. You could be right, but once again, scripture does not say.

(aside from acts 2, but pertains to subject:)
In Acts 3:8 , when the lame man was healed, he got excited about it, and went on into the temple walking AND Leaping and Laughing. And the people saw and praised God. Please answer this question:

Did the people stop praising God, the instance any of them followed him into the temple? Did he stop praising when he got into the temple?(it says he went in doing those things) Do you believe he and the others that were praising God for the miracle got thrown out of the temple for being too out of line? The real question is WOULD PAUL HAVE THROWN THEM OUT FOR THEIR PRAISE? You may think so, I do not.

#8) You wrote that the crowd attributed the speaking in different languages to be because of drinking new wine.
Please tell me, do you really believe that? or could it be:

They had to be acting a little annevited to also make Peter say "These are not DRUNK as you suppose..... Would you agree to that? linking drunkedness to ONLY the ability to speak other languages, as I understand you to have done, is a little out far fetched for me.

[Dr. Vaughn]

TO SHAG


You said:
You wrote in #8 that they were preaching, the bible reads that they were Speaking the wonderful works of God. (which IMO,is praise, whether "the works" is about the gospel, as you stated, or not)
and if they were preaching the gospel to the crowd, as you wrote in #7, why did they need Peter to preach it to them again?
Peter did the preaching, NOT the people as you wrote in #7.

My Response: Would you like to tell us the VAST difference in SPEAKING Preaching? It's gonna be a huge stretch.. when I am preaching I am SPEAKING to people

YOU SAID:
#2.) This is your opinion, in which I respect. Do you have scripture for it? or are you just drawing a conclusion that they we're overwhelmed wondering how they we're gonna reach the world when they don't know everyone's language? (without any scripure)

MY RESPONSE:
There is a such thing as logic.. is there not? In the immediate verse preceding the promise of power.. he is telling these unlearned men that they must now go tell the gospel in ALL THE NATIONS..... Ok.... here they sit, they do not KNOW THE LANGUAGES of all the nations... you tell me with a reasonable mind that this was not something to be considered?

Evidently Jesus could read their minds.. because he immediatly he answers their concerns........ he tells them they will receive the ABILITY...... sir Power is NOT THE WORD used in the ORIGINAL... Here's your proof

Power - DUNAMIS = Ability... I realize the Pentecostals like the word POWER better.. it sounds more Pentecostal.. but actually Jesus said - Tarry at Jerusalem and you will receive the ABILITY for the service I have just commisioned you to..... they would receive the ABILITY to perform the MIRACLE of speaking to the NATIONS

Now, brother.. you read it and tell me how that CANNOT be the logical conclusion.,. especially in light of the fact that this is EXACTLY what happened once they got to Jerusalem.... they received ABILITY (not power) but ABILITY to speak to nations about the gospel.....


YOU SAID:
3.)You wrote that they were told that they would receive a supernatural ability TO reach nations.
They WERE actually told that they would receive "power" after the Spirit had come upon them AND they shall be witnesses....(you put in the "to", I'll leave it as "and", which, IMO means along with receiving that Spirit, you shall be witnesses....
So according to what you wrote, I assume you believe the "Power" of the Spirit was ONLY for the speaking in another language to witness?
I personally believe the "power" that comes with receiving his Spirit, is for more than just to be witnesses by speaking in another language.
I believe it to be for being a Godly example as a witness, or to have power to overcome the enemy of this world, overcome our fleshly desires, etc.

MY RESPONSE:
Shag, I believe I proved previously that I am the one correct on the meaning of POWER in this verse.. its not some electric current Pentecostal type of power... but the original word was ABILITY... you see you keep using the word POWER in its English meaning.. such a FORCE or SHOCK or something overpowering.. and this is actually not a very good translation of the original word ABILITY

YOU SAID:
#6) Let me get this straight, in #7 you said the people were preaching to the listeners about the gospel, yet in #6, you say they were speaking to God (according to Paul's writing)but the men gathered and understood them.
So they were speaking to God about the gospel that he already knew about since he designed it from the foundation of the world,then the people understood what the tongue talkers were saying to God, so then they were getting preached to (of the gospel)? ?? Please untangle/explain this.

My Response:
Brother, I believe you have completely misunderstood me.. I was actually try to prove the exact opposite, I will try again.

I was showing in scripture where Paul gives the definition of "Speaking in tongues" he said that if someone is speaking in tongues that they are NOT SPEAKING TO ME but rather to God.....

Now, we know by no stretch of the imagination that at Pentecost, the entire purpose was evangelism of the nations.... Thus we know that the PURPOSE of the Languages that fell on them was to speak to those gathered about the WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD.....

They were NOT SPEAKING TO GOD about the wonderful works of God but rather to those who had gathered.. and thus according to PAULS writing they were not "Speaking in tongues" but rather at Pentecost they were speaking in "OTHER" foreign languages which is not the same as speaking in "unknown tongues that Paul is refering here"

Pauls very definition of speaking in tongues, refutes that anyone was speaking in tongues at Pentecost..... they were NOT.... they were rather doing what Jesus told them they would do,, they were breaking those language barriers and speaking about GOD......and his wonderful works

Now...... PETER in response to the MOCKING and the lack of understanding of all the onlookers... needed to clarify what these people were being told and what they were seeing... thus he brings them the theological discourse....

It is my argument that no one "Spoke in unknown tongues" at Pentecost ,, as the modern day Pentecostals do........ but rather they received supernatural ability from the Holy Ghost to SPEAK TO MEN about the wonderful works of God..... and then Peter brought it all together with his final sermon

When we do street ministry, we do the same thing.. our people mingle among the crowd telling them about Jesus and then we have a speaker who will make a public address to bring the theological message about their need for salvation and basically clear up in their minds everything they have seen and heard....

YOU SAID:

#7) No shouting, screaming, and rolling around in floors. You could be right, but once again, scripture does not say.

MY RESPONSE:
Then how can Pentecostals use this event at Pentecost to give scriptural credence for their displays of emotions?

Thanks Brother,, I enjoy the discourse

[Steve Epley]

Peter preached and ONLY Peter and the multitude understood Peter's preaching and obyed! Not the so-called preaching of the multitude.
DV read it and weep!
"they that gladly recieved HIS word were baptized.".Acts 2;41
"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up HIS voice." 2:14

"...said unto PETER and the rest of the Apostles"...2;37
"THEN PETER SAID" 2:38
"with many other words did HE testify and exhort." 2:40
The 120 were NOT preaching they were praising God in tongues they had never learned. The miracle was NOT in the HEARING as Branham taught but the speaking.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Peter preached and ONLY Peter and the multitude understood Peter's preaching and obyed! Not the so-called preaching of the multitude.
DV read it and weep!
"they that gladly recieved HIS word were baptized.".Acts 2;41
"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up HIS voice." 2:14

"...said unto PETER and the rest of the Apostles"...2;37
"THEN PETER SAID" 2:38
"with many other words did HE testify and exhort." 2:40
The 120 were NOT preaching they were praising God in tongues they had never learned. The miracle was NOT in the HEARING as Branham taught but the speaking.

Had your scripture said PRAISE & MAGNIFYING God.. then sure.. but it never says that.. so you cant create it.. even Eply doesn't have that power...... they were TELLING THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD to GOD HIMSELF I suppose...... sillines in the first degree brother... they were there to reach nations.... not GOD...

The very original words work against you.. .they were speaking in "other foreign languages" Paul says THATS NOT TONGUES.......

Show me ONE SCRIPTURE in ACTS 2.. Ive asked for it before.. ONE SCRIPTURE that EVER MENTIONS them Praising GOD

[Steve Epley]

Had your scripture said PRAISE & MAGNIFYING God.. then sure.. but it never says that.. so you cant create it.. even Eply doesn't have that power...... they were TELLING THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD to GOD HIMSELF I suppose...... sillines in the first degree brother... they were there to reach nations.... not GOD...

The very original words work against you.. .they were speaking in "other foreign languages" Paul says THATS NOT TONGUES.......

Show me ONE SCRIPTURE in ACTS 2.. Ive asked for it before.. ONE SCRIPTURE that EVER MENTIONS them Praising GOD

If THEY were preaching then God had WOMEN preaching!!!!!! Think about it.
They were praising God that was telling the wonderful works of God is.
Tongues are languages no one is arguing with that.

Answer the passages I gave. They are clear.

[tstew]

I'm not sure I understand this compulsion to disect the Day of Pentecost as if it is the only New Testament gathering mentioned in the Bible. The New Testament is full of examples of praising God in group settings.

[Dr. Vaughn]

If THEY were preaching then God had WOMEN preaching!!!!!! Think about it.
They were praising God that was telling the wonderful works of God is.
Tongues are languages no one is arguing with that.

Answer the passages I gave. They are clear.

Again brother.... there is no difference in what I see here and sharing a testimony... these people where not all over the places PREACHING as much as they were TELLING the people perhaps one on one about the wonderful things God has done in their day through Jesus Christ.. and yes a woman can do that all day long....

it was not a woman who took the pulpit at Pentecost and stepped into that role of preaching the theology of the matter.... God used a man for that

[Dr. Vaughn]

I'm not sure I understand this compulsion to disect the Day of Pentecost as if it is the only New Testament gathering mentioned in the Bible. The New Testament is full of examples of praising God in group settings.

My purpose brother is to debunk the "grabbing the mike and screaming into during the out of control flesh show --- THESE ARE NOT DRUNK AS YOU SUPPOSE<<< THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED AT PENTECOST'

pure lies for more hype and histeria

[Steve Epley]

My purpose brother is to debunk the "grabbing the mike and screaming into during the out of control flesh show --- THESE ARE NOT DRUNK AS YOU SUPPOSE<<< THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED AT PENTECOST'

pure lies for more hype and histeria

Have YOU spoke in tongues and have any of this hysteria?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Have YOU spoke in tongues and have any of this hysteria?

LOL,, good one brother.. yes I speak in tongues almost every day I suppose and you know brother when I was a baby I use to scream and holler until I learned how to talk.. so back in the day yes I ran and screamed and bucked and shouted....... did it all.... I just no longer see where this looks anything remotely like the Day of Pentecost or any other NT gathering......

[StMark]

I'm afraid we have some Anti Pentecostals in our midst

[Steve Epley]

LOL,, good one brother.. yes I speak in tongues almost every day I suppose and you know brother when I was a baby I use to scream and holler until I learned how to talk.. so back in the day yes I ran and screamed and bucked and shouted....... did it all.... I just no longer see where this looks anything remotely like the Day of Pentecost or any other NT gathering......

Was it God or were you faking?

[Dr. Vaughn]

I'm afraid we have some Anti Pentecostals in our midst

Bro. Mark it's not true.... I have the Pentecostal experience.. I speak in tongues daily.. and even a few gifts of the Spirit operate in my life.. I love TRUE Pentecost... but I am against the propoganda of Pentecost that when you see one of our services, you are looking at what happened at Pentecost.. when it is just not true....

at least tell the truth... or make something up like.. we now have more than they had at Pentecost.... we have Azusa street... and we have more than they had at Pentecost..... at least tell people the truth

[Dr. Vaughn]

Was it God or were you faking?

You don't have to fake being an infant... I'll tell you what alot of it was good drum playing and good organ playing

When these people go crazy at these concerts... is that GOD or is it faking? You cannot fake getting in the atmosphere of the music

I would prove it.... let Apostolics take every organ out,, every set of drums out,, every piece of music... and lets see how much shouting you will have next Sunday... it's all worked up emotions.... it has nothing to do with the Word of God

[Rico]

LOL,, good one brother.. yes I speak in tongues almost every day I suppose and you know brother when I was a baby I use to scream and holler until I learned how to talk.. so back in the day yes I ran and screamed and bucked and shouted....... did it all.... I just no longer see where this looks anything remotely like the Day of Pentecost or any other NT gathering......

Well, maybe what you need is one them really good Holy Ghost whammy type of blessings. You know, the kind where you end up completely lost in the spirit realm for a couple of hours and someone has to drive you home because of it. I know I could use one like that right about now.

BTW, I understand what you are saying about seeing things one way when you were younger and differently now that you are older. That happens to all of us. I used to run around the church a lot. Thought it was the neatest thing too. Now I'd be lucky to make it around for just one lap, and don't really feel like I need to run in a church service. That still doesn't mean it isn't just as real to the ones who are now doing the running as it was to me when I was doing the running.

[Rico]

You don't have to fake being an infant... I'll tell you what alot of it was good drum playing and good organ playing

When these people go crazy at these concerts... is that GOD or is it faking? You cannot fake getting in the atmosphere of the music

I would prove it.... let Apostolics take every organ out,, every set of drums out,, every piece of music... and lets see how much shouting you will have next Sunday... it's all worked up emotions.... it has nothing to do with the Word of God

Ain't you never seen someone have a Holy Ghost fit at Wal-Mart? Who says ya have to have music playing?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Ain't you never seen someone have a Holy Ghost fit at Wal-Mart? Who says ya have to have music playing?

Afraid I havn't my brother.....

Paul said when I was a child I spake as a child.. in our case we ran around the church.... but the church must come into maturity.. it must learn to shut up, sit down..... quit overiding the message..... learn what you did not know about Jesus before you came... quit hoping a visitor will show and get saved... quit being lazy and waiting on a preacher to win the lost.. when thats not his job.. his job is to perfect saints... so the saints might win the lost...... this is the level of maturity the Apostle was hoping for in our churches.. I see nothing wrong for espousing those things.. for reaching for a much more mature level in God...

[Dr. Vaughn]

Would someone please tell me what Glory God is receiving with Sis. Whahutchia over in the corner giving everybody a good shout show... trust me folks... I been there.. everyone watching her get her flesh on.... or her dance on... while everyone smiles and watches her..... I want you to know that is real WORSHIP

[Rico]

Afraid I havn't my brother.....

Paul said when I was a child I spake as a child.. in our case we ran around the church.... but the church must come into maturity.. it must learn to shut up, sit down..... quit overiding the message..... learn what you did not know about Jesus before you came... quit hoping a visitor will show and get saved... quit being lazy and waiting on a preacher to win the lost.. when thats not his job.. his job is to perfect saints... so the saints might win the lost...... this is the level of maturity the Apostle was hoping for in our churches.. I see nothing wrong for espousing those things.. for reaching for a much more mature level in God...

As long as the church is winning souls, there will always be babes in Christ. There has to be room enough for everyone.

[Dr. Vaughn]

and those babes will only mimick what they see... hopefully they will see a church of mature.. WORD LOVING,, and reverent adults for which they might mold themselves

[Rico]

and those babes will only mimick what they see... hopefully they will see a church of mature.. WORD LOVING,, and reverent adults for which they might mold themselves

Brother, what does the scripture that talks about fire being shut up in your bones mean to you? There's nothing whatsoever wrong with having a good time praising the Lord during a church service. Nothing wrong with dancing, clapping hands, running the aisles, rolling on the flo, givin your brother a high five cause you're so happy to be in church Praising His name!! Nothing wrong with any of that.

[Steve Epley]

I have been in many services through the years where there was shouting and demostration without any music whatsoever.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Brother, what does the scripture that talks about fire being shut up in your bones mean to you? There's nothing whatsoever wrong with having a good time praising the Lord during a church service. Nothing wrong with dancing, clapping hands, running the aisles, rolling on the flo, givin your brother a high five cause you're so happy to be in church Praising His name!! Nothing wrong with any of that.

If its not scriptural, its wrong.. if it was not in the early church then we have added to the Word of God

[Dr. Vaughn]

I have been in many services through the years where there was shouting and demostration without any music whatsoever.

Care to compare them with the number thats just the opposite.....

So you have seen the Apostolic Shoe Slide... without music????

You know what I mean.... hardwood floor platform.... sliding back and forth real fast to "wrapped up tied up, tangled all up in Jesus"

Youve seen the N. Little Rock HOEDOWN without Music?

[Rico]

If its not scriptural, its wrong.. if it was not in the early church then we have added to the Word of God

I don't anyone preaches exuberant worship as a doctrine. However, I can find scripture for lots of things that happen during a church service. I am working right now, having to post in between phone calls, but I can find some of them for you, if you'd like.

[Steve Epley]

Care to compare them with the number thats just the opposite.....

So you have seen the Apostolic Shoe Slide... without music????

You know what I mean.... hardwood floor platform.... sliding back and forth real fast to "wrapped up tied up, tangled all up in Jesus"

Youve seen the N. Little Rock HOEDOWN without Music?

I have been in services where nearly everyone in the house was doing something without a lick of music.

However when the prodigal came home there was music and dancing that is the first thing the elder heard that he didn't like. Your not the eldest son are yuo?:happydance:happydance:happydance He was against it unless it was about him.:happydance:happydance:happydance:happydance

[Dr. Vaughn]

I don't anyone preaches exuberant worship as a doctrine. However, I can find scripture for lots of things that happen during a church service. I am working right now, having to post in between phone calls, but I can find some of them for you, if you'd like.

Make sure you find it AFTER Paul sets the church in order and corrects its excesses and calls for a muturity to come into the services... I would LOVE to see those NT examples of SHOUTING CHURCH

[Rico]

Make sure you find it AFTER Paul sets the church in order and corrects its excesses and calls for a muturity to come into the services... I would LOVE to see those NT examples of SHOUTING CHURCH

I see. You are one of these "let's throw out the OT kind of believers". In that case, never mind.

[Dr. Vaughn]

I see. You are one of these "let's throw out the OT kind of believers". In that case, never mind.

Oh not not at all

but If I am restoring a car..... its done in a process.... and I dont want to reach back to its unfinished process to drive it....

Why would one reach back to the unfinished church to pattern itself after...

If your home is out of order and then you SET IT IN ORDER... and your children complain when you correct them and say.. but thats not how we use to do it,...then you say.. but this is how its done now... its been set in order

same way with Paul.,.. he took all the loose pieces and corrected our forefathers and taught them proper order

[tstew]

You don't have to fake being an infant... I'll tell you what alot of it was good drum playing and good organ playing

When these people go crazy at these concerts... is that GOD or is it faking? You cannot fake getting in the atmosphere of the music

I would prove it.... let Apostolics take every organ out,, every set of drums out,, every piece of music... and lets see how much shouting you will have next Sunday... it's all worked up emotions.... it has nothing to do with the Word of God

Psalms 150: 1Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
2 Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.
3 Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!

I don't know what kind of axe you have to grind but you are scripturally off base when you take the Bible in its entirety. I suggest that you do that sometime instead of trying to micro-disect a few passages.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Psalms 150: 1Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
2 Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.
3 Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!

I don't know what kind of axe you have to grind but you are scripturally off base when you take the Bible in its entirety. I suggest that you do that sometime instead of trying to micro-disect a few passages.

Brother... if your a sinner and your household has always gone to the movies on Friday nights.. and you have always allowed it......... then you get saved and you decide theres a better way to run this house..... no more movies.... then your children tell you "well we used to do it that way on Friday nights" would you not tell them.... Yes, I allowed it then but now we have found a better more godly way....

Same thing here.. you are reaching back to the times of Davidic Praise and trying to bring it into Post Pauline churches... as someone besides me said in another thread..... when you have something more perfect like the NT... we shouldn't reach back to go forward.... same here.. Paul set the church in Order.. why reach back before that time and justfy how you do church on a pre-pauline scripture?

[Rico]

Brother... if your a sinner and your household has always gone to the movies on Friday nights.. and you have always allowed it......... then you get saved and you decide theres a better way to run this house..... no more movies.... then your children tell you "well we used to do it that way on Friday nights" would you not tell them.... Yes, I allowed it then but now we have found a better more godly way....

Same thing here.. you are reaching back to the times of Davidic Praise and trying to bring it into Post Pauline churches... as someone besides me said in another thread..... when you have something more perfect like the NT... we shouldn't reach back to go forward.... same here.. Paul set the church in Order.. why reach back before that time and justfy how you do church on a pre-pauline scripture?

And on another thread you are trying to reach back into the OT to justify polygamy. What's the difference?

[Dr. Vaughn]

And on another thread you are trying to reach back into the OT to justify polygamy. What's the difference?

Great question..... and thats the point I am trying to make

Had Paul never set the church in order... then OT practices for worship could have continued with no problem

but with Polygamy.... Paul NEVER forbade it.. he never stopped the OT practice.. except for Bishops

[Rico]

Great question..... and thats the point I am trying to make

Had Paul never set the church in order... then OT practices for worship could have continued with no problem

but with Polygamy.... Paul NEVER forbade it.. he never stopped the OT practice.. except for Bishops

He never forbade Davidic worship either, as you call it.

[Dr. Vaughn]

He never forbade Davidic worship either, as you call it.

Brother he did..... when he instructed to bring things in ORDER,, keeping their place in the house of God..... few songs.., keeping quiet....

He said.. everyone of you want to sing.. testify.. have the show when you get to church,... he told them to quit speaking in tongues without an interpreter....

he definitly brought order to the church.....and bye the way you will not find all you find in the NT local church was PREACHING & Teaching

[Rico]

Brother he did..... when he instructed to bring things in ORDER,, keeping their place in the house of God..... few songs.., keeping quiet....

He said.. everyone of you want to sing.. testify.. have the show when you get to church,... he told them to quit speaking in tongues without an interpreter....

he definitly brought order to the church.....and bye the way you will not find all you find in the NT local church was PREACHING & Teaching

Sorry, DV, but you use an argument for one area and then discount that same argument in another area because it doesn't fit whatever it is you believe. That's called being inconsistent.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Sorry, DV, but you use an argument for one area and then discount that same argument in another area because it doesn't fit whatever it is you believe. That's called being inconsistent.

please specify those areas for me,, thanks

[Rico]

please specify those areas for me,, thanks

Brother, we have now graduated to having the same argument on two separate threads. You know exactly what I am talking about, so let's not play that game, ok?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Brother, we have now graduated to having the same argument on two separate threads. You know exactly what I am talking about, so let's not play that game, ok?

I agree,,,, im tired too, lol

truth is I forgot what we were fighting about

[Sam]

Brother... if your a sinner and your household has always gone to the movies on Friday nights.. and you have always allowed it......... then you get saved and you decide theres a better way to run this house..... no more movies.... then your children tell you "well we used to do it that way on Friday nights" would you not tell them.... Yes, I allowed it then but now we have found a better more godly way....

Same thing here.. you are reaching back to the times of Davidic Praise and trying to bring it into Post Pauline churches... as someone besides me said in another thread..... when you have something more perfect like the NT... we shouldn't reach back to go forward.... same here.. Paul set the church in Order.. why reach back before that time and justfy how you do church on a pre-pauline scripture?

That's the same argument some use against jewelry. They say God allowed it in the Old Testament and it was OK then but now under the New Testament it is wrong.

[bkstokes]

Brother... if your a sinner and your household has always gone to the movies on Friday nights.. and you have always allowed it......... then you get saved and you decide theres a better way to run this house..... no more movies.... then your children tell you "well we used to do it that way on Friday nights" would you not tell them.... Yes, I allowed it then but now we have found a better more godly way....

Same thing here.. you are reaching back to the times of Davidic Praise and trying to bring it into Post Pauline churches... as someone besides me said in another thread..... when you have something more perfect like the NT... we shouldn't reach back to go forward.... same here.. Paul set the church in Order.. why reach back before that time and justfy how you do church on a pre-pauline scripture?

DV

Please take no offense, but a lot times when I read what you got to say I just feel like I need to get out the weighters (High plastic boots). It is obvious that all of this is done to defend what Branham taught.

If people get a little too emotional at times, so what! I for one would rather my kids to have emotion involved, then just sitting there bored out of their minds listening to myths of beastialty.

[StMark]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but some ( or many?) believe that since we are in a new era, Tongues have ceased

The method for salvation is NOT the same as ours. It's belief in " the prophet". you believe in William B. for your salvation

[Dr. Vaughn]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but some ( or many?) believe that since we are in a new era, Tongues have ceased

The method for salvation is NOT the same as ours. It's belief in " the prophet". you believe in William B. for your salvation

Bro. Mark. we have been there.. even bro. Eply refuted your statement... no such thing has ever been taught by Bro. Branham

[StMark]

Bro. Mark. we have been there.. even bro. Eply refuted your statement... no such thing has ever been taught by Bro. Branham



I didn't say that Branham told them to do this but will admit that many do teach this Bro Vaughn ?

[Dr. Vaughn]

I didn't say that Branham told them to do this but will admit that many do teach this Bro Vaughn ?

Should we start naming the many crazy things Apostolics teach?

[Sam]

Should we start naming the many crazy things Apostolics teach?

no, let's not start that.
it would be a very lengthy list.
there is so much variety and diversity among Apostolics, or Pentecostals, or Oneness Pentecostals or whatever we are known as.

There is nothing "standard" when it comes to standards, doctrine, church government, etc.

[StMark]

Should we start naming the many crazy things Apostolics teach?



If you can top Eve having sex with a slithering snake go ahead and name it

[Dr. Vaughn]

If you can top Eve having sex with a slithering snake go ahead and name it

St Mark.. you go from a nice guy to a crude guy all the time.. cant quite figure you out brother....

it was not a snakee.. it was a beautiful creature that walked upright and spoke like Adam 7 Eve did.. intelligent enough to converse with them in their language....nothing like a snake

[StMark]

St Mark.. you go from a nice guy to a crude guy all the time.. cant quite figure you out brother....

it was not a snakee.. it was a beautiful creature that walked upright and spoke like Adam 7 Eve did.. intelligent enough to converse with them in their language....nothing like a snake



Bro Vaughn what did I say that was crude ???? I'm not trying to be crude but I do like to provoke debate i will admit to that much :bliss

HOwever, the bible did not say that the serpent was an upright creature that could procreate with human beings. that's extra biblical.

Satan does not have human DNA sir

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro Vaughn what did I say that was crude ???? I'm not trying to be crude but I do like to provoke debate i will admit to that much :bliss

HOwever, the bible did not say that the serpent was an upright creature that could procreate with human beings. that's extra biblical.

Satan does not have human DNA sir

Agreed and we will let it end at that.. blessings

[stmatthew]

Acts:3:8: And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Acts:3:8: And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

Exactly right.. he did this when he was healed OUTSIDE the temple.... thats how he entered but in a Jewish temple he would have been quietened upon entrance

[Praxeas]

St Mark.. you go from a nice guy to a crude guy all the time.. cant quite figure you out brother....

it was not a snakee.. it was a beautiful creature that walked upright and spoke like Adam 7 Eve did.. intelligent enough to converse with them in their language....nothing like a snake
lol....then the bible is wrong because it says it was a serpent (snake hebrew) and I don't recall anything about walking upright.

Additionally....if the snake was not a human how could even not only have sex with it but produce offspring. That is against the law of nature....the law God made. A snake is a reptile, so this thing was not even a mammel

[Praxeas]

Exactly right.. he did this when he was healed OUTSIDE the temple.... thats how he entered but in a Jewish temple he would have been quietened upon entrance
So if he was healed in a church service and did that then what? It was of the flesh?

[Praxeas]

I agree,,,, im tired too, lol

truth is I forgot what we were fighting about
Then stop starting so many different threads on related topics. You got your fingers in so many pies that it is confusing to you and us

[Praxeas]

Brother... if your a sinner and your household has always gone to the movies on Friday nights.. and you have always allowed it......... then you get saved and you decide theres a better way to run this house..... no more movies.... then your children tell you "well we used to do it that way on Friday nights" would you not tell them.... Yes, I allowed it then but now we have found a better more godly way....

Same thing here.. you are reaching back to the times of Davidic Praise and trying to bring it into Post Pauline churches... as someone besides me said in another thread..... when you have something more perfect like the NT... we shouldn't reach back to go forward.... same here.. Paul set the church in Order.. why reach back before that time and justfy how you do church on a pre-pauline scripture?
WOW! Comparing worship and Praise before the NT to being a sinner going to the movies? That is beyond absurd.

You have not shown that this is the case though. You have NOT shown that it was eliminated

You can Paul set the church in order a zillion times but you have not proven that means he eliminated worship and praise. What he did specifically was address the abuse or misuse of the gifts

[Praxeas]

Great question..... and thats the point I am trying to make

Had Paul never set the church in order... then OT practices for worship could have continued with no problem

but with Polygamy.... Paul NEVER forbade it.. he never stopped the OT practice.. except for Bishops
Paul set the Corinthians in order NOT because they were worshiping God...not because they were doing it like the bible says to in the OT...but because of their misuse of the gifts

[Praxeas]

Brother he did..... when he instructed to bring things in ORDER,, keeping their place in the house of God..... few songs.., keeping quiet....

He never said "few songs"...He never mentioned any sort of OT forms of praise and worship. His part about keeping quiet was to WOMEN while they were being taught the word...he said learn in silence...LEARN. Church Services include worship, prayers and teaching.

He said.. everyone of you want to sing.. testify.. have the show when you get to church,... he told them to quit speaking in tongues without an interpreter....
LOL....He said you want to sing, testify....please PLEASE now show us where he said NOT TO sing...or NOT to testify. Also he did not tell them to NOT speak in tongues if no interpreter was present. He said IF there is none present to speak to yourself.

BTW you said you speak in tongues...when and where?

he definitly brought order to the church.....and bye the way you will not find all you find in the NT local church was PREACHING & Teaching
This statement is totally beyond comprehension so I am going to assume I know what you meant. Nobody denies he brought order or correction but it was to the Corinthians on their abuse of the gifts. He never forbad worship or praise or singing songs or limited them. You have failed to prove that.

Lastly you are committing another logical fallacy where by you assume the conclusion as your proof...that is circular. In other words you ASSUME the instances where there was something else going on and the church was gathered was NOT infact a church service.

And second you make an argument from silence in that you say because an account in acts does not mention worship then it never happened. Are you really a Dr?

Lastly you talk as though there are MANY of these instances in the bible but in fact you have found only one

[stmatthew]

Lets put it this way. The Old Testament is very clear as to how worship is done in the sanctuary. While even I may question some of the hype that goes on in some Apostolic services, there was, in the OT, emotional praise taking place. Folks fell down on their faces when his presence filled the temple.

Now we jump to the new testament, and we find nothing that takes away this type of worship. No command to abstain from exuberant praise. Actually, we find no real example of a NT service taking place.

Now we go to the book of Revelation, and what do we find? Again, exuberant praise. Music. Falling down before him.


So if I look at this logically, According to DV, we have exuberant praise in the OT. Then it is done away with in the NT. Then in the next age (whatever you want to call it) we have exuberant praise again. This makes about as much since is the Serpent Seed Doctrine.


To me, what DV is doing is methodically eroding the principles and doctrines of the NT Apostolic Church. I am sure he is a nice guy. But the spirit that comes forth when you see one that continually seeks to destroy Apostolic foundations shines very bright to me.

[Praxeas]

Lets put it this way. The Old Testament is very clear as to how worship is done in the sanctuary. While even I may question some of the hype that goes on in some Apostolic services, there was, in the OT, emotional praise taking place. Folks fell down on their faces when his presence filled the temple.

Now we jump to the new testament, and we find nothing that takes away this type of worship. No command to abstain from exuberant praise. Actually, we find no real example of a NT service taking place.

Now we go to the book of Revelation, and what do we find? Again, exuberant praise. Music. Falling down before him.


So if I look at this logically, According to DV, we have exuberant praise in the OT. Then it is done away with in the NT. Then in the next age (whatever you want to call it) we have exuberant praise again. This makes about as much since is the Serpent Seed Doctrine.


To me, what DV is doing is methodically eroding the principles and doctrines of the NT Apostolic Church. I am sure he is a nice guy. But the spirit that comes forth when you see one that continually seeks to destroy Apostolic foundations shines very bright to me.
I consider a lot of what goes on to be a form of rejoicing or expressions of joy

[bkstokes]

Lets put it this way. The Old Testament is very clear as to how worship is done in the sanctuary. While even I may question some of the hype that goes on in some Apostolic services, there was, in the OT, emotional praise taking place. Folks fell down on their faces when his presence filled the temple.

Now we jump to the new testament, and we find nothing that takes away this type of worship. No command to abstain from exuberant praise. Actually, we find no real example of a NT service taking place.

Now we go to the book of Revelation, and what do we find? Again, exuberant praise. Music. Falling down before him.


So if I look at this logically, According to DV, we have exuberant praise in the OT. Then it is done away with in the NT. Then in the next age (whatever you want to call it) we have exuberant praise again. This makes about as much since is the Serpent Seed Doctrine.


To me, what DV is doing is methodically eroding the principles and doctrines of the NT Apostolic Church. I am sure he is a nice guy. But the spirit that comes forth when you see one that continually seeks to destroy Apostolic foundations shines very bright to me.

amen