I'm Confused Dr. V - Wasn't Branham a ...

[SDG]

PENTECOSTAL PREACHER.

HE PREACHED IN PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES.

PRAISED IN PENTECOSTAL SERVICES.

PREACHED A ONENESS PENTECOSTAL MESSAGE.

MADE HIS LIVING FROM PENTECOSTAL GIVING?

PRAYED FOR HEALING OF PENTECOSTAL WORSHIPPERS?

:reaction

[SDG]

Well wasn't he?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Well wasn't he?

I am as well .... but not in the modern term... I speak in tongues and have the gifts of the SPirit.. but the word Pentecostal has been hijacked by a bunch of NOISE & FLESH.. this was NOT the original Pentecost....

[Michael The Disciple]

He is not well esteemed because he rejected the "evidence doctrine". He also taught predestination and annihilation of the wicked, both which I believe are true.

[SDG]

So if I provide descriptions of typical Pentecostal worship at a type of meeting that Branahm preached .. would that mean you are still a Branahm Pentecostal.

[RevBuddy]

I am as well .... but not in the modern term... I speak in tongues and have the gifts of the SPirit.. but the word Pentecostal has been hijacked by a bunch of NOISE & FLESH.. this was NOT the original Pentecost....


You mean, of course, THAT RUSHING MIGHTY WIND...!?!?!?!?!?

[Dr. Vaughn]

He is not well esteemed because he rejected the "evidence doctrine". He also taught predestination and annihilation of the wicked, both which I believe are true.

Nice to meet you Michael

[Dr. Vaughn]

So if I provide descriptions of typical Pentecostal worship at a type of meeting that Branahm preached .. would that mean you are still a Branahm Pentecostal.

Only if you realize that where he preached he could not control,,, I would actually ask you to show it from his home church in Jeffersonville,, thanks

[Dr. Vaughn]

You mean, of course, THAT RUSHING MIGHTY WIND...!?!?!?!?!?

Oh i see.. thats the justification for LOUD.... WIND has always been associated with the SPIRIT OF GOD...... will you try to use that to justify LOUD...

[Steve Epley]

Only if you realize that where he preached he could not control,,, I would actually ask you to show it from his home church in Jeffersonville,, thanks

You mean BRANHAM Tabernacle where that humble man pastored a church that had his name over the door. Where they have played his tapes for 40 years?

[Dr. Vaughn]

You mean BRANHAM Tabernacle where that humble man pastored a church that had his name over the door. Where they have played his tapes for 40 years?

Thats the place.. where he told them

"change the name, change it to whatever you want" the church NOT HIM voted to not change the name.....

yep thats the one

[Steve Epley]

Thats the place.. where he told them

"change the name, change it to whatever you want" the church NOT HIM voted to not change the name.....

yep thats the one

The it was a LAODICEAN church since the people ran it?

[Dr. Vaughn]

The it was a LAODICEAN church since the people ran it?

He was always for the people making local church decisions,,,,

[Steve Epley]

He was always for the people making local church decisions,,,,

Right a Laodicean church!

Maybe he was correct the Laodicean messenger to his Laodicean church.

They fitted each other it was a real spiritual lighthouse I tell you!

How many services have you been at there that oasis in the desert!

[Rico]

1 Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:
Psalms 66:1 (KJV)

1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob. 2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery. 3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
Psalms 81:1-3 (KJV)

1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. 2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
Psalms 95:1-2 (KJV)

Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. 5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm. 6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. 7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. 8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
Psalms 98:4-8 (KJV)



Oh, wait a minute! Paul didn't write this stuff so it doesn't count.

[Dr. Vaughn]

1 Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:
Psalms 66:1 (KJV)

1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob. 2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery. 3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
Psalms 81:1-3 (KJV)

1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. 2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
Psalms 95:1-2 (KJV)

Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. 5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm. 6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. 7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. 8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
Psalms 98:4-8 (KJV)



Oh, wait a minute! Paul didn't write this stuff so it doesn't count.

You understand this was Davidic Judaic praise... its all OT... we try to pattern NT churches off of NT guides

[Dr. Vaughn]

The it was a LAODICEAN church since the people ran it?

Hey brother... is waldrop in N>missisppi in your organization?

[Steve Epley]

Hey brother... is waldrop in N>missisppi in your organization?

I don't know him and I am not in an organization.

[Rico]

You understand this was Davidic Judaic praise... its all OT... we try to pattern NT churches off of NT guides

The NT church didn't chunk the OT into the trash. In fact, the OT is all they had to reference. That's why it's referred to so much in the NT. Now, God either likes for His people to make a loud joyful noise when they praise Him or David was a big fat liar.

[RevBuddy]

Oh i see.. thats the justification for LOUD.... WIND has always been associated with the SPIRIT OF GOD...... will you try to use that to justify LOUD...

I wasn't justifying anything! His Word needs absolutely no justification, and asks for none. :bliss

I was just giving you an example of the first Pentecostal service...very dynamic with elements of the not-so-quiet supernatural...

...but relax, I didn't even mention the earthquake or the lightning or the thunder or the high sounding cymbals, etc., etc., etc. - all biblical descriptions of God's mighty power AND of those worshipping Him... :happydance

[Dr. Vaughn]

I wasn't justifying anything! His Word needs absolutely no justification, and asks for none. :bliss

I was just giving you an example of the first Pentecostal service...very dynamic with elements of the not-so-quiet supernatural...

...but relax, I didn't even mention the earthquake or the lightning or the thunder or the high sounding cymbals, etc., etc., etc. - all biblical descriptions of God's mighty power AND of those worshipping Him... :happydance

May I invite you to the NT... Pauls Church was NOTHINg like that.. he is our example,,, anything before him was allowed... it was not the pattern

[Praxeas]

Thats the place.. where he told them

"change the name, change it to whatever you want" the church NOT HIM voted to not change the name.....

yep thats the one
so at the very least we can say is the followers of Branham are idolaters?

[Praxeas]

May I invite you to the NT... Pauls Church was NOTHINg like that.. he is our example,,, anything before him was allowed... it was not the pattern
You've failed to prove that. All you have shown or talked about is what elements were in the church not what was NOT in the church. And BTW It was NOT Pauls church....hmmmmm falling back into the Branham Tabernacle paradigm I see

[SDG]

so at the very least we can say is the followers of Branham are idolaters?

Different thread ..... http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=15208

[Praxeas]

You understand this was Davidic Judaic praise... its all OT... we try to pattern NT churches off of NT guides
Prove that NT worship and church was changed or not patterned off of the Jewish pattern. The first church was JEWISH.

They didn't even HAVE a bible text called "The New Testament"

And as I pointed out already
Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 5:21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

[Dr. Vaughn]

so at the very least we can say is the followers of Branham are idolaters?

You can say Branhamites are. yes

[Dr. Vaughn]

Prove that NT worship and church was changed or not patterned off of the Jewish pattern. The first church was JEWISH.

They didn't even HAVE a bible text called "The New Testament"

And as I pointed out already
Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 5:21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Do it exactly the way it reads and your fine.... We sing spiritual reverent songs and hymns in our church.... we just try not make it a flesh show... you have still showed no scriptures for isle running, shouting, rolling in the floors, jerking,, shouting,, everybody talking in tongues...

[Rico]

Do it exactly the way it reads and your fine.... We sing spiritual reverent songs and hymns in our church.... we just try not make it a flesh show... you have still showed no scriptures for isle running, shouting, rolling in the floors, jerking,, shouting,, everybody talking in tongues...

And you are arguing from a position of silence.

[Dr. Vaughn]

And you are arguing from a position of silence.

RICO - No I am not.. I copied an entire chapter of specific instructions for a church service from Paul....

did I not? how is that silence

[Rico]

RICO - No I am not.. I copied an entire chapter of specific instructions for a church service from Paul....

did I not? how is that silence

Because you are trying to use Paul's silence on issues pertaining to some aspects of exuberant worship to justify condemning the practices.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Because you are trying to use Paul's silence on issues pertaining to some aspects of exuberant worship to justify condemning the practices.

Talk about silence.. what do you with the fact that Pentecostal type of worship can be found NO WHERE in the NT?

[StMark]

Prax, here is the bottom line. The Branhamites believe that the ear of Pentecost is over. God is not working in our churches anymore. They have moved on to a deeper level. They think we are living in the past era.

Now Vaughn, you can deny this but again, I heard this from THEIR MOUTH This didn't come from me.


They believe the rapture already took place but it took place in their spirit and mind. They've already been elevated for lack of a better word. We are going to be raptured individually as we get the revelation of the prophet.

They don't believe in a literal catching away of the saints like we do

[Rico]

Talk about silence.. what do you with the fact that Pentecostal type of worship can be found NO WHERE in the NT?

Not specifically endorsing something does not equate to condemning it, DV. That's the point you don't seem to get. So what if there aren't specific examples of people running around the aisles in the NT. People have tried it and found that God likes it. It can fall under the making a joyful noise category you also reject because it's in the OT.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Prax, here is the bottom line. The Branhamites believe that the ear of Pentecost is over. God is not working in our churches anymore. They have moved on to a deeper level. They think we are living in the past era.

Now Vaughn, you can deny this but again, I heard this from THEIR MOUTH This didn't come from me.


They believe the rapture already took place but it took place in their spirit and mind. They've already been elevated for lack of a better word. We are going to be raptured individually as we get the revelation of the prophet.

They don't believe in a literal catching away of the saints like we do


Oh good Lord...... we don't believe in a literal catching away??? Hold on brother,, tons of quotes coming your way to prove you wrong once again on these issues......

[Dr. Vaughn]

Not specifically endorsing something does not equate to condemning it, DV. That's the point you don't seem to get. So what if there aren't specific examples of people running around the aisles in the NT. People have tried it and found that God likes it. It can fall under the making a joyful noise category you also reject because it's in the OT.

But when Paul calls for ORDER.. running Isles like the buildings on fire is NOT ORDER.. its chaos.....

When Paul calls for limited songs and testimonies.. with the focus being the WORD.. when he calls for the de-emphasis of tongues.. when he calls for quietness... it just don't sound like a Pentecostal church to me

[StMark]

The Branhamites believe that the ear of Pentecost is over. God is not working in our churches anymore. They have moved on to a deeper level. They think we are living in the past era.

Vaugn, There might be different teachings on the rapture within your group I'll give you that. we have the same thing but the obove comment is true and acorss the board

[Dr. Vaughn]

The Branhamites believe that the ear of Pentecost is over. God is not working in our churches anymore. They have moved on to a deeper level. They think we are living in the past era.

Vaugn, There might be different teachings on the rapture within your group I'll give you that. we have the same thing but the obove comment is true and acorss the board

I absolutely believe the first line..... just as God moved past the Wesley Age, the Lutheran Age. the Baptist Age he doesnt stop at the Pentecostal Age... Laodocia is over and we are now in the Bride Age.. when God is calling his Bride to the Word.. out of every denomination of man... he is calling her out of Pentecost... into THE WORD

I will always tell you when you DO STRIKE on what we believe..... but to say we dont believe in the literal catching away is ludicrous

[StMark]

I absolutely believe the first line..... just as God moved past the Wesley Age, the Lutheran Age. the Baptist Age he doesnt stop at the Pentecostal Age... Laodocia is over and we are now in the Bride Age.. when God is calling his Bride to the Word.. out of every denomination of man... he is calling her out of Pentecost... into THE WORD

I will always tell you when you DO STRIKE on what we believe..... but to say we dont believe in the literal catching away is ludicrous



Well Finally!!! Vaughn admits to SOMETHING!!!!

Progress has been made this Day Ya'll !!!!!!

I told you Prax, They think our churches are a thing of the past and God is not in our churches.


Vaughn, whether you want to admit it, there are quite a few Branhamites that DO NOT believe in the traditional teaching of the rapture. in fact, many are living in the mountains waiting for the end of the world

[Rico]

But when Paul calls for ORDER.. running Isles like the buildings on fire is NOT ORDER.. its chaos.....

When Paul calls for limited songs and testimonies.. with the focus being the WORD.. when he calls for the de-emphasis of tongues.. when he calls for quietness... it just don't sound like a Pentecostal church to me

According to you it isn't order, DV. You are taking your notion of what "order" means and trying to apply it to everyone around you. An orderly service could mean a service that does things in a certain sequence, like praise and worship first, then testimonies, then offering, then preaching, then praying for those who respond, then some more praise and worship, then dismissal. See? There's an order to those things.

[Dr. Vaughn]

According to you it isn't order, DV. You are taking your notion of what "order" means and trying to apply it to everyone around you. An orderly service could mean a service that does things in a certain sequence, like praise and worship first, then testimonies, then offering, then preaching, then praying for those who respond, then some more praise and worship, then dismissal. See? There's an order to those things.

Yeah,, just dont mind those 20 people in the floors as you bring your offering... real order there my friend

[Rico]

Yeah,, just dont mind those 20 people in the floors as you bring your offering... real order there my friend

It beats fighting to stay awake.

[Dr. Vaughn]

Pauls words............ And the rest will I set in order when I come.

He had a passion about Church Order

[Dr. Vaughn]

It beats fighting to stay awake.

Thats just it... you just helped the argument

Pentecostal find the WORD boring many times.. and thus they need their flesh entertained to stay awake....

In our services you can almost tell the people are wishing the song service will come to an end so we can gather around the Word

[SDG]

Thats just it... you just helped the argument

Pentecostal find the WORD boring many times.. and thus they need their flesh entertained to stay awake....

In our services you can almost tell the people are wishing the song service will come to an end so we can gather around the Word


There is some truth to this .... and retention of what is heard is low.

[Rico]

I think I have figured out what's going on here. Over and over and over again, even while quoting Branham, you have taken one little piece of what someone said to build your doctrines on. That's a most dangerous way of letting the Bible "give instruction." Frankly, I am weary of arguing against half truths, personal opinions, and inconsistencies in how scripture is applied. I have used more scripture in my arguments with you than I have in a long, long time on these forums. If you don't believe me, just ask anyone. I rarely break out the Book around here. I'm done with it.

[Dr. Vaughn]

I think I have figured out what's going on here. Over and over and over again, even while quoting Branham, you have taken one little piece of what someone said to build your doctrines on. That's a most dangerous way of letting the Bible "give instruction." Frankly, I am weary of arguing against half truths, personal opinions, and inconsistencies in how scripture is applied. I have used more scripture in my arguments with you than I have in a long, long time on these forums. If you don't believe me, just ask anyone. I rarely break out the Book around here. I'm done with it.

thanks for the dialogue

[Rico]

thanks for the dialogue

It's a good thing too. I am listening to your message right now. I in no way consider myself an expert on the Bible, but I could easily refute what you are saying in it, and even point out why. Good thing I've decided to put my Sword up.

[Sam]

May I invite you to the NT... Pauls Church was NOTHINg like that.. he is our example,,, anything before him was allowed... it was not the pattern

In the NT book of Ephesians, Paul exhorts his readers to be filled or to be ongoingly filled or to keep getting filled with the Spirit. He compares/contrasts being under the influence of the Spirit with being under the influence of wine. He said that the results of being under the influence (drunk?) in the Spirit would be;
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

It's interesting that he would mention singing psalms. The Book of Psalms was a prayer book, hymn book and journal. We read in there about clapping, shouting, singing, worshiping, etc. I hardly think we would be exhorted to sing about clapping, shouting, singing, worshiping if we weren't supposed to do any of those things.

[Sam]

I absolutely believe the first line..... just as God moved past the Wesley Age, the Lutheran Age. the Baptist Age he doesnt stop at the Pentecostal Age... Laodocia is over and we are now in the Bride Age.. when God is calling his Bride to the Word.. out of every denomination of man... he is calling her out of Pentecost... into THE WORD

I will always tell you when you DO STRIKE on what we believe..... but to say we dont believe in the literal catching away is ludicrous

If we take the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 as 7 parts of the Church Age,(and I'm not arguing for or against that), then Laodicea is the last one. Then Rev 4 starts with the trumpet saying, "Come up hither" and we then see the glorified church in Heaven seated on thrones with Jesus. Where does this "Bride Age" come from? In my opinion, the Bride is made up of all of those who have said "yes" or "I do" to Jesus throughout all the ages.

[anapko]

You mean BRANHAM Tabernacle where that humble man pastored a church that had his name over the door. Where they have played his tapes for 40 years?


Yes Elder, where also you go to the cemetary and they have erected a pyramid over his grave glorifying the 7 church ages. Yes, Elder, that church!

[jaxfam6]

I wasn't justifying anything! His Word needs absolutely no justification, and asks for none. :bliss

I was just giving you an example of the first Pentecostal service...very dynamic with elements of the not-so-quiet supernatural...

...but relax, I didn't even mention the earthquake or the lightning or the thunder or the high sounding cymbals, etc., etc., etc. - all biblical descriptions of God's mighty power AND of those worshipping Him... :happydance

You go Bro. This is OUR GOD. He can be loud, He can be quiet, He can be rough, He can be soft, He is GOD and he likes it ALL. Didn't Peter say they were not drunk as ye suppose? Ever see a group of DRUNKS? All the bars I have ever seen are LOUD, much louder than Pentecostal churches usually. So if he had to tell the people coming to SEE what all the fuss was about that they were drunk as ye suppose then they must have acted like it or something close.

[bkstokes]

In the NT book of Ephesians, Paul exhorts his readers to be filled or to be ongoingly filled or to keep getting filled with the Spirit. He compares/contrasts being under the influence of the Spirit with being under the influence of wine. He said that the results of being under the influence (drunk?) in the Spirit would be;
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

It's interesting that he would mention singing psalms. The Book of Psalms was a prayer book, hymn book and journal. We read in there about clapping, shouting, singing, worshiping, etc. I hardly think we would be exhorted to sing about clapping, shouting, singing, worshiping if we weren't supposed to do any of those things.


SO MUCH FOR I COR 14 ORDER THEORY -- Hey vaughn -- you can't use that ch to eliminate all worship.

[Sam]

SO MUCH FOR I COR 14 ORDER THEORY

No, the guidelines of 1 Corinthians 14 would be applicable and would have to be placed alongside the exhortation of Ephesians 5:18-21. There should be a "moderate" blending of the two.

My personal opinion is that there can indeed be a time of worship, aisle running, and dancing and there can be limited prophecies and messages in tongues and interpretation. There can also be times of deep silence as people hear from and speak to God privately and quietly. But, there should also be a time when everyone shuts up and listens to the Word of the Lord taught, preached, or exhorted. Times when the Spirit "moves" in such a way that there is no preaching should be the rare exception.

[bkstokes]

No, the guidelines of 1 Corinthians 14 would be applicable and would have to be placed alongside the exhortation of Ephesians 5:18-21. There should be a "moderate" blending of the two.

My personal opinion is that there can indeed be a time of worship, aisle running, and dancing and there can be limited prophecies and messages in tongues and interpretation. There can also be times of deep silence as people hear from and speak to God privately and quietly. But, there should also be a time when everyone shuts up and listens to the Word of the Lord taught, preached, or exhorted. Times when the Spirit "moves" in such a way that there is no preaching should be the rare exception.

Yeah

I know Jim and I also believe the same. I just wrote that because Vaughn tries to deny all worship using I Cor 14. I am kind've like his gadfly here in the forum.

[Dr. Vaughn]

It's a good thing too. I am listening to your message right now. I in no way consider myself an expert on the Bible, but I could easily refute what you are saying in it, and even point out why. Good thing I've decided to put my Sword up.

I'm sure you could Rico

[stmatthew]

You understand this was Davidic Judaic praise... its all OT... we try to pattern NT churches off of NT guides

Can you give us any scriptures that state specifically what a NT church service is to be like?

[stmatthew]

I absolutely believe the first line..... just as God moved past the Wesley Age, the Lutheran Age. the Baptist Age he doesnt stop at the Pentecostal Age... Laodocia is over and we are now in the Bride Age.. when God is calling his Bride to the Word.. out of every denomination of man... he is calling her out of Pentecost... into THE WORD

I will always tell you when you DO STRIKE on what we believe..... but to say we dont believe in the literal catching away is ludicrous

I have to ask you. IF William Branham was the prophet to the 7th church age, as you have stated, and every age has its own prophet, then to follow William Branham would be to follow yesterdays prophet. WHO IS THE PROPHET FOR THIS AGE, The "BRIDE AGE"?

[Dr. Vaughn]

The age last longer than the man... this age will bring us to the rapture

[stmatthew]

The age last longer than the man... this age will bring us to the rapture


You just stated that the Laodicean Age was over, and we are now in the "BRIDE AGE". No other Age has had its prophet go beyond to the next age. So The church age Branham was a prophet in is over, and now we must have a prophet for this age.

[Praxeas]

Do it exactly the way it reads and your fine.... We sing spiritual reverent songs and hymns in our church.... we just try not make it a flesh show... you have still showed no scriptures for isle running, shouting, rolling in the floors, jerking,, shouting,, everybody talking in tongues...
I never said I would or could show scriptures for running "isle"...I can and did show scripture for shouting and jumping. I already tried to engage you in the tongues issue but you blew me off like you have most of my points and counter arguments.

Simply put the bible does not outlaw rejoicing or expressions of joy.
Nobody denies church is a place to learn and be edified and perfected, but you are asserting something that is simply NOT proven by you. That a service is to be void of expressions of worship, worship and praise, singing and rejoicing, prayers and ministering to both physical and spiritual needs of the saints as well as ministering to the unlearned visitors

[Steve Epley]

You just stated that the Laodicean Age was over, and we are now in the "BRIDE AGE". No other Age has had its prophet go beyond to the next age. So The church age Branham was a prophet in is over, and now we must have a prophet for this age.

Matthew is on a roll today! Very good. Dr.Vaughn you made the statement or repeated it from Branham so it is you turn?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Bro. Eply.... were you in the Apostolic movement before Branham or another religion?

[Praxeas]

I never said I would or could show scriptures for running "isle"...I can and did show scripture for shouting and jumping. I already tried to engage you in the tongues issue but you blew me off like you have most of my points and counter arguments.

Simply put the bible does not outlaw rejoicing or expressions of joy.
Nobody denies church is a place to learn and be edified and perfected, but you are asserting something that is simply NOT proven by you. That a service is to be void of expressions of worship, worship and praise, singing and rejoicing, prayers and ministering to both physical and spiritual needs of the saints as well as ministering to the unlearned visitors
Bump for the Dr

[Brother Price]

Bro. Eply.... were you in the Apostolic movement before Branham or another religion?

Nice side step, but you did not answer questions posed to you.

[Praxeas]

Nice side step, but you did not answer questions posed to you.
he's been two steppin his way around a LOT of good points and counter arguments....and then obfuscating everything by starting yet another topic that he can't keep track of.

[Joelel]

He is not well esteemed because he rejected the "evidence doctrine". He also taught predestination and annihilation of the wicked, both which I believe are true.

I also believe predestination because the word teaches it but,how do you believe it is the question ?

[Joelel]

I am as well .... but not in the modern term... I speak in tongues and have the gifts of the SPirit.. but the word Pentecostal has been hijacked by a bunch of NOISE & FLESH.. this was NOT the original Pentecost....

So you think a person shouldn't do anything unless the Holy Ghost moves them ?

[Joelel]

Right a Laodicean church!

Maybe he was correct the Laodicean messenger to his Laodicean church.

They fitted each other it was a real spiritual lighthouse I tell you!

How many services have you been at there that oasis in the desert!

The word teaches me the apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church and started the assemblies and kept athority over them. Oops.

[Joelel]

The NT church didn't chunk the OT into the trash. In fact, the OT is all they had to reference. That's why it's referred to so much in the NT. Now, God either likes for His people to make a loud joyful noise when they praise Him or David was a big fat liar.

Wrong ,they had the teaching of Jesus written in their heart,then the Holy Ghost continued to teach them. Amen

[Rico]

Wrong ,they had the teaching of Jesus written in their heart,then the Holy Ghost continued to teach them. Amen

Joelel, when I said the OT was all they had as reference, I was referring to established scripture. I was not suggesting they had no other guide to lead them. The NT confirms that they did not pitch the OT in the trash because it is, in fact, constantly referred to in the epistles. Jesus Himself referred to them.

[Joelel]

Oh good Lord...... we don't believe in a literal catching away??? Hold on brother,, tons of quotes coming your way to prove you wrong once again on these issues......

I see you said we,you must be one of them ?

[Joelel]

I absolutely believe the first line..... just as God moved past the Wesley Age, the Lutheran Age. the Baptist Age he doesnt stop at the Pentecostal Age... Laodocia is over and we are now in the Bride Age.. when God is calling his Bride to the Word.. out of every denomination of man... he is calling her out of Pentecost... into THE WORD

I will always tell you when you DO STRIKE on what we believe..... but to say we dont believe in the literal catching away is ludicrous

Sorry,the church is not the bride yet and everyone saved will not be the bride.The marrage has not taken place yet,we are making ourselves ready now.Rev.19 has not took place yet.

Rev.19
[7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[Praxeas]

No, the guidelines of 1 Corinthians 14 would be applicable and would have to be placed alongside the exhortation of Ephesians 5:18-21. There should be a "moderate" blending of the two.

My personal opinion is that there can indeed be a time of worship, aisle running, and dancing and there can be limited prophecies and messages in tongues and interpretation. There can also be times of deep silence as people hear from and speak to God privately and quietly. But, there should also be a time when everyone shuts up and listens to the Word of the Lord taught, preached, or exhorted. Times when the Spirit "moves" in such a way that there is no preaching should be the rare exception.
ORDER
taxis
tax'-is
From G5021; regular arrangement, that is, (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character), official dignity: - order.

Now let's look at the context.

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Co 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Co 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
1Co 14:30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.
1Co 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,
1Co 14:32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
1Co 14:34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
1Co 14:35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
1Co 14:36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
1Co 14:40 But all things should be done decently and in order.

Not one thing here speaks of HOW we worship or display joy or any sort of expression. Paul is STRICTLY speaking of the use of gifts in order rather than doing it all at once, as well as singing songs etc etc...he is talking about each one getting a chance IN ORDER or one at a time and as for women being silent this is not talking about teaching...when teaching is going on she is to learn in silence. It was shameful then for women in that part of the world to speak out...previously women were not even allowed to learn in meetings like that. Not in synagogues, but now they are allowed to learn along side men, but Paul required they do so in silence rather than speaking out. Why the part about asking their husbands? It has been suggested the problem was in church the women sat on one side and the men on the other and the women were asking their husbands questions which is disruptive so they were to wait until they got home and asked their husbands

[Dr. Vaughn]

PRAX.. if you will notice.. I hardly respond to your writings.. it never leads to any conclusions and you make it waaay too persona... but I could not help myself on a statement you made.. it demandsa response

You cunningly indicated that IN THOSE TIMES women were not allowed to teach..... and be in authority over man.... I wish to make a slight correction, respectfully....

IT WAS NOT SO FROM THE BEGINNING, had nothing to do with the times.....

[Praxeas]

PRAX.. if you will notice.. I hardly respond to your writings.. it never leads to any conclusions and you make it waaay too persona... but I could not help myself on a statement you made.. it demandsa response

You cunningly indicated that IN THOSE TIMES women were not allowed to teach..... and be in authority over man.... I wish to make a slight correction, respectfully....

IT WAS NOT SO FROM THE BEGINNING, had nothing to do with the times.....
You never reply regardless of if I make it personal or not....BTW you made it personal a LONG time ago when you came in calling us all hypocrites and other things. Regardless though I will continue to refute your arguments if not for you to see for the benefit of the others that might be mislead by your posts.

Second, talk about cunning and personal...you are not being personal here? Uh I did not say in those times they were not allowed to TEACH. I said they were NOT allowed to LEARN. In pre christian times they did not enjoy the same privilage as men in learning in synagogues.

I never said one thing about them teaching or having authority.

This one of many times you have erroneously....maybe cunningly (that was your word you used for me....so much for your claims to being respectful....you show otherwise) put words in my mouth.

I deal with you how you deal with me and the others here. If you don't like it, change your tune.

[Praxeas]

ORDER
taxis
tax'-is
From G5021; regular arrangement, that is, (in time) fixed succession (of rank or character), official dignity: - order.

Now let's look at the context.

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Co 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Co 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
1Co 14:30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.
1Co 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,
1Co 14:32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
1Co 14:34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
1Co 14:35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
1Co 14:36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
1Co 14:40 But all things should be done decently and in order.

Not one thing here speaks of HOW we worship or display joy or any sort of expression. Paul is STRICTLY speaking of the use of gifts in order rather than doing it all at once, as well as singing songs etc etc...he is talking about each one getting a chance IN ORDER or one at a time and as for women being silent this is not talking about teaching...when teaching is going on she is to learn in silence. It was shameful then for women in that part of the world to speak out...previously women were not even allowed to learn in meetings like that. Not in synagogues, but now they are allowed to learn along side men, but Paul required they do so in silence rather than speaking out. Why the part about asking their husbands? It has been suggested the problem was in church the women sat on one side and the men on the other and the women were asking their husbands questions which is disruptive so they were to wait until they got home and asked their husbands
Bump

I don't think the Dr can refute this. It is clear from the context that he is misusing or abusing the text and the word order to promote his own personal feelings of how a church meeting should ONLY be like.

he keeps saying order order as if that proves something alone, but shown in context it does NOT support his argument

[Dr. Vaughn]

PRAX

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Sound like any Pentecostal meetings you been in lately?

[Joelel]

PRAX

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Sound like any Pentecostal meetings you been in lately?

Here in Cor. When Paul was talking about the gift of tongues it is very clear he was talking about two kind of tongues because he said, 13:1. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal

(Tongues of angels is when you pray.)1Cor.14[1] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries'

(Even when a person prays in tongues and others are around he should pray to interpret.)1 Cor14:[13] Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.[14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also

(When praying)[16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?[17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified

(If any man speaks in a tongue he is only to speak in two or three sentence and if no one understands to interpret he should keep it down to a whisper and talk to God) 1 Cor.14:[27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.[28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
So we find that the Holy Ghost is going to speak out loud though people in the church assemblies and no one will understand.Then that person if no interpretation is given is to keep the tongue talking down to a whisper and speak to God.

We speak in tongues of angels and men and groanings and stammering lips.Isa.28:11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear

We don't make intercession in the Spirit. The Spirit makes intercession for us.Rom.8[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

[Praxeas]

PRAX

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Sound like any Pentecostal meetings you been in lately?
You refused to engage me in this issue Dr. I tried to bring it up but you brushed me off.

You raised this issue before and when I tried to replie you ignored my post. This is a consistant pattern with you.

I repeat...we all Pentecostals agree that a message in tongues meant for the church to be edified, should not be all done at the same time and should only be done one by one to the most of three speakers.

That is not the problem and you know it. The problem is whether or not those tongues are the same kinds of tongues meant to be interpreted.

Having said that, that does not address what I just said in my previous post. This is just more red herring and obfuscation.

You TRIED to use this stuff about order to disprove NOT tongues but singing, praising, worshipping, jumping and other expressions of joy and praise and simply put the word ORDER in that verse has NOTHING to do with that. If you want to argue "order" in reference to the gifts of the Spirit being used then we are on the same page. But you tried to take the purpose of What Paul is talking about beyond that.

[Dr. Vaughn]

I love how you guys come up with these "oh thats a different kind of tongues" who is the authority on what type of tongues he is talking about here.... what solid ground do you stand on to say WITHOUT A DOUBT he is not talking about "praying in tongues"

[Praxeas]

I love how you guys come up with these "oh thats a different kind of tongues" who is the authority on what type of tongues he is talking about here.... what solid ground do you stand on to say WITHOUT A DOUBT he is not talking about "praying in tongues"
Do you want to discuss it or not? I tried to engage you twice already and you just blew me off. Do you want to discuss it or not? Im tired of these games you play. Let's start a thread on it and discuss it...no distractions. No red herrings. No strawmen. No ignoring the others post and we all agree to QUOTE the other person so any reader can tell if someone is putting words into the other persons mouth.

[stmatthew]

I love how you guys come up with these "oh thats a different kind of tongues" who is the authority on what type of tongues he is talking about here.... what solid ground do you stand on to say WITHOUT A DOUBT he is not talking about "praying in tongues"

The text itself seems to imply that the tongues being talked about would be tongues that have accompanying interpretation. Do those that "pray in tongues need an interpretation?


1Cor 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Cor 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Cor 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Cor 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Cor 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

[Praxeas]

The text itself seems to imply that the tongues being talked about would be tongues that have accompanying interpretation. Do those that "pray in tongues need an interpretation?


1Cor 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Cor 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Cor 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Cor 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Cor 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
Really...why would someone praying in tongues need an interpreter if the prayer in tongues is going up to God unless it is a public prayer in which case Paul is not saying there should be an interpretor but rather he should pray in a language everyone knows...that does suggest more than one kind of tongue. Good call Matt

[Joelel]

I love how you guys come up with these "oh thats a different kind of tongues" who is the authority on what type of tongues he is talking about here.... what solid ground do you stand on to say WITHOUT A DOUBT he is not talking about "praying in tongues"

The Holy Ghost took control of me one day in a church assembly where they didn't believe in tongues and I spoke in tongues and the pastor said what I did was wrong and his wife spoke up and said, Oh no it wasn't I understood everything he said.Sounds like the day of pentecost to me.

[Dr. Vaughn]

The Holy Ghost took control of me one day in a church assembly where they didn't believe in tongues and I spoke in tongues and the pastor said what I did was wrong and his wife spoke up and said, Oh no it wasn't I understood everything he said.Sounds like the day of pentecost to me.

Man... you should write a book, thats some pretty amazing stuff

[stmatthew]

I love how you guys come up with these "oh thats a different kind of tongues" who is the authority on what type of tongues he is talking about here.... what solid ground do you stand on to say WITHOUT A DOUBT he is not talking about "praying in tongues"

The text itself seems to imply that the tongues being talked about would be tongues that have accompanying interpretation. Do those that "pray in tongues need an interpretation?


1Cor 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Cor 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Cor 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Cor 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Cor 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Bump for DV. Just in case it got missed. Can you reply?

[Praxeas]

Bump for DV. Just in case it got missed. Can you reply?
Now when I bump like this he gets snotty with me then I get more pushy and then he claims it's all me...

[stmatthew]

Now when I bump like this he gets snotty with me then I get more pushy and then he claims it's all me...

It may help if you didn't seem to be stalking him. :toofunny

[Dr. Vaughn]

It may help if you didn't seem to be stalking him. :toofunny

BINGO and yes kind brother.. I will be responding to your post as soon as time allows... make sure to bump it later if I fail to respond....

Bro V

[SDG]

This in Deep Waters ... why?

[Praxeas]

It may help if you didn't seem to be stalking him. :toofunny
He won't answer my questions anyways. I kindly bumped them....ignored. I did the same. Ignored. I was a little more pointed as to his ignoring my responses and he replied with a flippant response. I finally decided Im just going to keep refuting his arguments and pointing out the mass of logical fallacies and obfuscations he keeps posting regardless of what he does or does not do.

[Praxeas]

BINGO and yes kind brother.. I will be responding to your post as soon as time allows... make sure to bump it later if I fail to respond....

Bro V
Bingo baloney. I bumped my post just like Matt did and you ignored me....you ignored Matt too. I'd be surprised if you really do come back and respond to him.

Im sure Dr V would feel better if I were not refuting his arguments...he can call that stalking all he wants, but remember this is a public board. YOU CAME HERE. I was already here.

[stmatthew]

I love how you guys come up with these "oh thats a different kind of tongues" who is the authority on what type of tongues he is talking about here.... what solid ground do you stand on to say WITHOUT A DOUBT he is not talking about "praying in tongues"

The text itself seems to imply that the tongues being talked about would be tongues that have accompanying interpretation. Do those that "pray in tongues need an interpretation?


1Cor 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Cor 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Cor 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Cor 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Cor 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Dr V,

You asked me to bump this back up to remind you about it. Any reply?

[Dr. Vaughn]

Thanks for your patience St. Matthew... sometimes I get lost in all the different post...

Thanks for the opportunity to share with you my view of tongues in the local church.....

We see plainly in the writings of Paul that he tell us the purpose of the two different types of "tongues" we know that one is between Man & God and is not for the public benefit ... agreed so far?

One is for the purpose of God speaking to the local church for edification.. agreed so far?

Paul tells us plainly that the "unknown tongues" some call it the "prayer lanaguage" is for private prayer;

I Cor 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Now, if according to Paul, the prayer language the language that man can interpret, the mysterious language is not be spoken to men nor for the edification of men.. then I argue it has no place in the "gathering of men and women" and rather belongs in the prayer closet.

Was it not our Lord who cautioned us about praying in public? I feel the same way about tongues.. if private prayer belongs in the sanctitiy of a private place, so does the unknown tongue...... it should not be spoken in the public gathering because it serves NO PURPOSE for the CHURCH... but rather for the individual

When we gather for church we are gathering for the edification of the WHOLE BODY not just ourselves... we edify ourselves in private prayer times.. but the church can only be edified with an INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES

It is the utmost of selfishness to gather with the body of believers and focus on YOURSELF by speaking in tongues when it does not edify nor serve to entire THE ENTIRE BODY....

There are many things you and I can do alone with God,, such as build up our faith, speak in tongues,, praise and worship... but what we cannot do alone is "assemble ourselves" we cannot instruct ourselves we much have Five-Fold ministry, we are unable to correct ourselves or even rebuke ourselves and therefore the purpose of the local church...

Should you visit a snake-handling church for the first time... would you not think the people were mad? But to them, it's normal it happens every service...... and Paul taught us that the unbeliever, should the walk into our services and everyone is speaking in tongues at the same time all over the building, whether in praise or not it sounds like total madness to the unbeliever.. and thus Paul taught us that is out of order... and tongues should only be used for the purpose of "Edifying the Body"

Hope, I have clarified my postion

[stmatthew]

Thanks for your patience St. Matthew... sometimes I get lost in all the different post...

Thanks for the opportunity to share with you my view of tongues in the local church.....

We see plainly in the writings of Paul that he tell us the purpose of the two different types of "tongues" we know that one is between Man & God and is not for the public benefit ... agreed so far?

One is for the purpose of God speaking to the local church for edification.. agreed so far?

Paul tells us plainly that the "unknown tongues" some call it the "prayer lanaguage" is for private prayer;

I Cor 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Now, if according to Paul, the prayer language the language that man can interpret, the mysterious language is not be spoken to men nor for the edification of men.. then I argue it has no place in the "gathering of men and women" and rather belongs in the prayer closet.

Was it not our Lord who cautioned us about praying in public? I feel the same way about tongues.. if private prayer belongs in the sanctitiy of a private place, so does the unknown tongue...... it should not be spoken in the public gathering because it serves NO PURPOSE for the CHURCH... but rather for the individual

When we gather for church we are gathering for the edification of the WHOLE BODY not just ourselves... we edify ourselves in private prayer times.. but the church can only be edified with an INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES

It is the utmost of selfishness to gather with the body of believers and focus on YOURSELF by speaking in tongues when it does not edify nor serve to entire THE ENTIRE BODY....

There are many things you and I can do alone with God,, such as build up our faith, speak in tongues,, praise and worship... but what we cannot do alone is "assemble ourselves" we cannot instruct ourselves we much have Five-Fold ministry, we are unable to correct ourselves or even rebuke ourselves and therefore the purpose of the local church...

Should you visit a snake-handling church for the first time... would you not think the people were mad? But to them, it's normal it happens every service...... and Paul taught us that the unbeliever, should the walk into our services and everyone is speaking in tongues at the same time all over the building, whether in praise or not it sounds like total madness to the unbeliever.. and thus Paul taught us that is out of order... and tongues should only be used for the purpose of "Edifying the Body"

Hope, I have clarified my postion

You did a good job, but you did not address what was posted. I agree that Paul is plainly stating that "Prayer" tongues are not to be openly broadcasted in a service because that would disrupt the service.

But what you fail to see is that when everyone is praying aloud, it does not disrupt the service in any way if one or many prays in tongues, as they are not praying to others, but to God. Notice the last verse I posted, which seems to be a contradiction of itself, but gives opening for praying in tongues in a service, but not having a message in tongues unless one can interpret.

1Cor 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

[Dr. Vaughn]

St. Matthew... here is where our viewpoints are different I believe....

I have never been in a Pentecostal service where tongues were quiet or reserved?

Again, if I am a visitor and I walk into a service and everyone is Praising God in tongues.. not being disruptive.. I still THINK THEIR MAD...

I personally feel that Paul was discouraging the use of tongues for this reason...

If someone does not have the interpretation.. according to your own verse... let each of them keep silent in church.... and speak to HIMSELF.. this should not be an audible sound

When I speak to myself..... this is not something you are going to hear...

Our divide is not enough to argue over.. I simply see Pauls personal desire for silence and the Word of God.. more than I see him promoting an overzealous and emotional service....

again,, this is my viewpoint.. your is understood and respected

[Praxeas]

You did a good job, but you did not address what was posted. I agree that Paul is plainly stating that "Prayer" tongues are not to be openly broadcasted in a service because that would disrupt the service.

But what you fail to see is that when everyone is praying aloud, it does not disrupt the service in any way if one or many prays in tongues, as they are not praying to others, but to God. Notice the last verse I posted, which seems to be a contradiction of itself, but gives opening for praying in tongues in a service, but not having a message in tongues unless one can interpret.

1Cor 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
Prayer tongues also shows that there IS in fact a different tongue than the one for church to be edified....a notion Dr V mocked only recently.

This is why I asked my questions that Dr V avoided claiming I was being personal or whatever. I made no rude comment, they were simple questions. It's important because he claims if the bible does not mention a worship service in Acts where Paul was teaching all night long the that means there was none. So the next question is where does Dr V get his authority for having a private prayer tongue he does outside of a church service? In fact where does he get the authority to speak in tongues at all NOT in a church service to be interpreted?

Since he seemed to indicate earlier just recently that the ONLY tongue is the gift of tongues Paul mentioned. This he came up with a mocking reply when I pointed out the gift of tongues is not the same as the tongue received when one gets the Spirit baptism.

Additionally and finally, was it not the Dr's contention that the "tongues as initial evidence" is false?

If that is the case the I have to ask what are the purposes of the gifts? Are they not to edify the body? If that is the case then is God giving men the gift of tongues for PERSONAL edification?

[Praxeas]

St. Matthew... here is where our viewpoints are different I believe....

I have never been in a Pentecostal service where tongues were quiet or reserved?

But has he ever been in a service where a message in tongues is given and an interpretation. Are those tongues he is talking about the same tongue Paul was talking about. If there is a difference between tongue to be interpreted and how they operate then is Paul talking about the personal tongue for prayer or personal edification? See this WAS important and why I asked my question and again I did not assault Dr V. I simple asked the questions, he read them and did not reply. I honestly believe Dr V's position is very internally contradictory.

From my experience there IS a difference. If you have ever been in a service where there is a message in tongues and interpretation there IS a huge difference. Almost everyone is silent. They were not taught anything....they can all tell this is a message in tongues. They go silent while a person gives a mesage....maybe another one will and then an interpretation.

In Paul's instant the Corinthians ALL had a tongue and were ALL wanting to give it...it was confusing because one person would speak and everyone was listening and could hear. That is different from a worship service when we are all worshiping together. Not everyone is speaking in a tongue. Many are speaking in the english language. It may still be confusing to visitors but far less in the other example.

And then what would happen is after 2 or 3 messages there was no interpretation and this thing just went on and on...more messages in tongues and more and more...nobody was being edified...the visitors heard nobody teaching or interpreting or prophesying in their own language. All they heard was these people speaking in tongues.

Paul said if there is no interpretor (or no interpretation)...then let them keep silent. By the time you've had three messages in tongues and still no interpretation it is clear there is nobody with the interpretation. Keep silent and move on to teaching or whatever is next

Again, if I am a visitor and I walk into a service and everyone is Praising God in tongues.. not being disruptive.. I still THINK THEIR MAD...
When I first came to a church meeting I was not familiar with tongues. Though many were in fact speaking in tongues I could not hear them. Because there was someone praising and singing in english. It is clearly NOT the same dynamics as people standing and giving a message in tongues.

I personally feel that Paul was discouraging the use of tongues for this reason...
Paul did anything BUT discourage the use of tongues. In fact he encouraged it.

If someone does not have the interpretation.. according to your own verse... let each of them keep silent in church.... and speak to HIMSELF.. this should not be an audible sound
Talking about a message in tongues for church edification. Not the prayer tongue

When I speak to myself..... this is not something you are going to hear...
As I mentioned before, I hear very few people speaking in tongues in a church service. Mostly because the ones that are are not speaking loud enough to be heard over the others that are not.

Our divide is not enough to argue over.. I simply see Pauls personal desire for silence and the Word of God.. more than I see him promoting an overzealous and emotional service....
Paul was not addressing being emotional or overzealous in a service or other wise. He was addressing the mis use of the gifts of the Spirit and having a certain order within the church meeting. That word order is taking by many like Dr V to promote a personal opinion on quite Mormon or Catholic like services and not ones where people are loudly rejoicing or praising God....that is far far from the truth. He is talking about order like arrangement.

For example there is ORDER in a Pentecostal service. We start with prayer. We move on to praising and singing songs. We then have maybe testimonies. Then we might have some special singing. Then we have teaching or preaching. Then we have a time of prayer where people can be prayed for and or visitors that want to be saved can be saved or filled with the Spirit and even baptized. It's very orderly or structured. But it is NOT so orderly or structured that we put God in a box so that when He wants a move to happen it can't.

again,, this is my viewpoint.. your is understood and respected
I am glad you are saying it is just your viewpoint. I disagree. I think I have done more than enough to disprove your assertions and show that you were using the word of God against what it was trying to prove. However you have come across rather aggressively against Pentecostals. Some of the things you have said were quite insulting.