A Warped Take on Illegal Immigration

[Nahum]

I received this email today.

Everyone concentrates on the problems we're having in this country lately; illegal immigration, hurricane recovery, alligators attacking people in Florida

Not me. I concentrate on solutions for the problems. It's a win-win situation.

+ Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border.

+ Send the dirt to New Orleans to raise the level of the levies.

+ Put the Florida alligators in the moat along the Mexican border.

Any other problems you would like for me to solve today?

How horrible and mean-spirited is this?

[MissBrattified]

Politics can definitely get in the way of Christianity.

[Baron1710]

I received this email today.



How horrible and mean-spirited is this?

I don't find it horrible or mean spirited.

[Nahum]

I don't find it horrible or mean spirited.

No?

[Baron1710]

No?

Nope.

[bkstokes]

No?

PP whatever happened to BG?

[Nahum]

No comment.

[Baron1710]

Why is protecting our borders mean spirited?

[Nahum]

How horrible and mean-spirited is this?

Baron, I asked the same thing.

[Baron1710]

Baron, I asked the same thing.

If it would be an effective deterrent I would be for it, realistically it isn't. I understand the sentiment though. I do believe we should secure our borders, I don't believe we need illegals for our economy, we can allow people to come in and work under the existing laws without allowing folks to illegally come into our country.

Arizona has done the best thing you can to stop illegal immigration, fine those who hire them enough that it isn't worth hiring them.

[MissBrattified]

*sigh*

I believe in securing borders as well. But not in such a way as to cause undue or gruesome deaths.

I have a feeling you boys think the alligator thing is funny, but I don't. I suppose it isn't a criminal I'm visualizing crossing the moat, but a mother with some children in tow. That just doesn't work out as being humorous in my head.

We are Christians first, citizens of the USA second.

[Rico]

I received this email today.



How horrible and mean-spirited is this?

At least it would be cheaper than some of the other knuckleheaded ideas I have heard of, like rounding up all them Mexicans and sending them back.

[Baron1710]

*sigh*

I believe in securing borders as well. But not in such a way as to cause undue or gruesome deaths.

I have a feeling you boys think the alligator thing is funny, but I don't. I suppose it isn't a criminal I'm visualizing crossing the moat, but a mother with some children in tow. That just doesn't work out as being humorous in my head.

We are Christians first, citizens of the USA second.

If there were a moat full of alligators and you jumped in with your children in tow that doesn't make me less Christian. If we put an electrified fence up with enough current to kill those who touched it and in spite of warning folks tried to cross it their blood is on their own heads.

[Rico]

If there were a moat full of alligators and you jumped in with your children in tow that doesn't make me less Christian. If we put an electrified fence up with enough current to kill those who touched it and in spite of warning folks tried to cross it their blood is on their own heads.

Baron, there is no point in killing or maiming those who try to come here. That's not what we're about.

[MissBrattified]

I believe we should protect our borders as securely as possible with as little deadly force as possible.

[Baron1710]

Baron, there is no point in killing or maiming those who try to come here. That's not what we're about.

No one said that was the point. If you were relatively certain that you would be killed or maimed trying to cross the border you would be less likely to attempt it.

[Rico]

No one said that was the point. If you were relatively certain that you would be killed or maimed trying to cross the border you would be less likely to attempt it.

There's already a good chance of dying from exposure in the desert while making the trip. That doesn't seem to be a deterrent. I don't see how killing or maiming them is such a good idea, Bro. It kinda goes against my Christianness, if you know what I mean.

[Baron1710]

There's already a good chance of dying from exposure in the desert while making the trip. That doesn't seem to be a deterrent. I don't see how killing or maiming them is such a good idea, Bro. It kinda goes against my Christianness, if you know what I mean.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, but the chances are pretty low that you are going to die from the heat compared to the number crossing. You will shoot them if they come in your house, but won't allow law enforcement to shoot them to keep them from invading our country. hmmm.

[tstew]

I don't agree with the alligator thing, but I also don't believe in doing nothing. It is ridiculous here in Houston and only going to get worse. The stupidest law in America is that anyone born here is automatically a citizen. I believe we may be the only country with such a provision. I don't understand how two legal non entities (not saying non-human) can create a legal entity with the power to vote, etc... If we don't wake up there will be irreversable damage.

[Pressing-On]

I don't agree with the alligator thing, but I also don't believe in doing nothing. It is ridiculous here in Houston and only going to get worse. The stupidest law in America is that anyone born here is automatically a citizen. I believe we may be the only country with such a provision. I don't understand how two legal non entities (not saying non-human) can create a legal entity with the power to vote, etc... If we don't wake up there will be irreversable damage.

tsstew,
I just want to say that I think your posts are a wonderful contribution to this Forum. I always look forward to your well articulated words!

At the bottom of the whole issue is addressing the uneducated workers. We wouldn't be as worried if they were educated. Uneducated people breed so much corruption.

[MrsMcD]

I don't agree with the alligator thing, but I also don't believe in doing nothing. It is ridiculous here in Houston and only going to get worse. The stupidest law in America is that anyone born here is automatically a citizen. I believe we may be the only country with such a provision. I don't understand how two legal non entities (not saying non-human) can create a legal entity with the power to vote, etc... If we don't wake up there will be irreversable damage.

Exactly!

[tstew]

tsstew,
I just want to say that I think your posts are a wonderful contribution to this Forum. I always look forward to your well articulated words!

At the bottom of the whole issue is addressing the uneducated workers. We wouldn't be as worried if they were educated. Uneducated people breed so much corruption.

Thanks PO right back at you. One of my biggest issues as a resident and taxpayer here in Houston is the financial burden of absorbing so many people who are not even able to share the tax burden. I saw an interview with a mayor in a smaller town who was complaining that his real population had doubled in ten years, but the city revenues were still the same. So they were having to try to provide twice the service for no more money. More people mean more police, medical services, schools and school related costs (food, teachers, buildings, materials, etc), and other services that the city and county must provide. The city was going to have to declare bankruptcy.

[Rico]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, but the chances are pretty low that you are going to die from the heat compared to the number crossing. You will shoot them if they come in your house, but won't allow law enforcement to shoot them to keep them from invading our country. hmmm.

There's a huge difference in someone coming here to work and someone breaking into my house to do me or my family bodily harm, Baron. I am sure you are well aware of that.

[Pressing-On]

Thanks PO right back at you. One of my biggest issues as a resident and taxpayer here in Houston is the financial burden of absorbing so many people who are not even able to share the tax burden. I saw an interview with a mayor in a smaller town who was complaining that his real population had doubled in ten years, but the city revenues were still the same. So they were having to try to provide twice the service for no more money. More people mean more police, medical services, schools and school related costs (food, teachers, buildings, materials, etc), and other services that the city and county must provide. The city was going to have to declare bankruptcy.
It is a big issue. What I don't like is the "uneducated workers" taking jobs from more capable people because it is cheaper to hire them. I absolutely hate that! We see it here as I don't live to far from you.

[MissBrattified]

How about we allow anyone who wants to work to come to the states, and all the Americans who are too lazy to work, but only leech off the government (and steal MY tax dollars)--ship them out of the country?

I like that plan better. :)

[Baron1710]

There's a huge difference in someone coming here to work and someone breaking into my house to do me or my family bodily harm, Baron. I am sure you are well aware of that.

Both are breaking the law. How do we know they are coming here to work? I will answer that for you we don't. They are not just Mexicans coming across the boarder, I just seen a news item on tv the other day about them arresting Asians and middle eastern folks coming across the Texas border. If we do not protect our borders as a nation it is similiar to not protecting our homes.

[MissBrattified]

Both are breaking the law. How do we know they are coming here to work? I will answer that for you we don't. They are not just Mexicans coming across the boarder, I just seen a news item on tv the other day about them arresting Asians and middle eastern folks coming across the Texas border. If we do not protect our borders as a nation it is similiar to not protecting our homes.

I'm for protecting the borders. I just don't think a moat full of alligators is the best--or most humane--way to do it.

[Rico]

I don't agree with the alligator thing, but I also don't believe in doing nothing. It is ridiculous here in Houston and only going to get worse. The stupidest law in America is that anyone born here is automatically a citizen. I believe we may be the only country with such a provision. I don't understand how two legal non entities (not saying non-human) can create a legal entity with the power to vote, etc... If we don't wake up there will be irreversable damage.

I agree with you about doing nothing. That's why I am in favor of building this wall. I also think it would make sense to give the illegals who are already here legal status, to put an end to all this nonsense with laws having to be passed and whatnot. Also, it would add several million legitimate taxpayers to the rolls. I don't think we should give them legal status until this wall is completed, however.

[Rico]

Both are breaking the law. How do we know they are coming here to work? I will answer that for you we don't. They are not just Mexicans coming across the boarder, I just seen a news item on tv the other day about them arresting Asians and middle eastern folks coming across the Texas border. If we do not protect our borders as a nation it is similiar to not protecting our homes.

You go ahead and open fire on them, if that's what trips your trigger. I am not in favor of doing that, and your comparison between them and someone trying to do my family bodily harm has to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on AFF.

[Pressing-On]

How about we allow anyone who wants to work to come to the states, and all the Americans who are too lazy to work, but only leech off the government (and steal MY tax dollars)--ship them out of the country?

I like that plan better. :)

Probably a good plan. But, here, we deal with those that do want to work, but they don't take care of things and they don't care! That really makes me angry also.

[tstew]

How about we allow anyone who wants to work to come to the states, and all the Americans who are too lazy to work, but only leech off the government (and steal MY tax dollars)--ship them out of the country?

I like that plan better. :)

I would back that if those who are coming to work respect our laws as a sovereign nation and are able to share in the burden. I am probably a little passionate about this now because I was thinking about my school tax (and I don't even have any children :). I personally don't want anybody leeching of the government and living off of my tax dollars no matter where you were born. I just don't believe that the solution is to just leave the floodgates down and allow millions more to get into that situation.

[Baron1710]

I'm for protecting the borders. I just don't think a moat full of alligators is the best--or most humane--way to do it.

Statements like that are deliberate hyperbole, no one would seriously suggest that as a way of fixing the problem. It’s a witty little statement made by someone who is frustrated because nothing is being done.

[Pressing-On]

You go ahead and open fire on them, if that's what trips your trigger. I am not in favor of doing that, and your comparison between them and someone trying to do my family bodily harm has to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on AFF.

The only way to come against this is to hit the employers - hard. But, it's a money issue and I don't see that getting resolved. I have no answers for the mess we are in.

[Pressing-On]

Statements like that are deliberate hyperbole, no one would seriously suggest that as a way of fixing the problem. It’s a witty little statement made by someone who is frustrated because nothing is being done.
I think it was also a witty statement. We saw a couple of alligators on the way to church the other night. When I read the opening post I thought - I can contribute to that! J/K!!! :toofunny

[tstew]

I agree with you about doing nothing. That's why I am in favor of building this wall. I also think it would make sense to give the illegals who are already here legal status, to put an end to all this nonsense with laws having to be passed and whatnot. Also, it would add several million legitimate taxpayers to the rolls. I don't think we should give them legal status until this wall is completed, however.

Not sure that there is any way to absolutely shut people out even with a wall (that would cost a fortune to build, maintain, and monitor). I have always liked the idea of drying up the demand by fining the pants off anyone who hired without proper documentation.
I also just feel strongly about revoking the current citizenship law that grants citizenship to all born here. We are just creating millions of full voters with more allegiance to another sovereign nation and culture than ours. That's how you end up with ballots including whether English should be the official language in certain American towns.
I love the fact that America is truly becoming a melting pot, but that concept only works if what is in the pot is willing to melt. A pot of rocks is not a melting pot. It's just a pot full o' hot rocks.

[Rico]

The only way to come against this is to hit the employers - hard. But, it's a money issue and I don't see that getting resolved. I have no answers for the mess we are in.

What will that solve, other than to cause an increase in the numbers of people on food stamps?

[Pressing-On]

Not sure that there is any way to absolutely shut people out even with a wall (that would cost a fortune to build, maintain, and monitor). I have always liked the idea of drying up the demand by fining the pants off anyone who hired without proper documentation.
I also just feel strongly about revoking the current citizenship law that grants citizenship to all born here. We are just crating millions of full voters with more allegiance to another sovereign nation and culture than ours. Tha's how you end up with ballots including whether English should be the official language in certain American towns.
I love the fact that America is truly becoming a melting pot, but that concept only works if what is in the pot is willing to melt. A pot of rocks is not a melting pot. It's just a pot full o' hot rocks.
Totally agree!!!!

[Pressing-On]

What will that solve, other than to cause an increase in the numbers of people on food stamps?

They shouldn't be allowed to have food stamps as illegals. I'm with tbstew - don't make people born here citizens just because they gave birth in our hospitals. That would alleviate a lot of problems - for a start.

[Baron1710]

What will that solve, other than to cause an increase in the numbers of people on food stamps?

They could always go back home, and if I were king they wouldn't get foodstamps.

[Pressing-On]

They could always go back home, and if I were king they wouldn't get foodstamps.

I will be your campaign manager!!! :happydance

[Rico]

Not sure that there is any way to absolutely shut people out even with a wall (that would cost a fortune to build, maintain, and monitor). I have always liked the idea of drying up the demand by fining the pants off anyone who hired without proper documentation.
I also just feel strongly about revoking the current citizenship law that grants citizenship to all born here. We are just crating millions of full voters with more allegiance to another sovereign nation and culture than ours. Tha's how you end up with ballots including whether English should be the official language in certain American towns.
I love the fact that America is truly becoming a melting pot, but that concept only works if what is in the pot is willing to melt. A pot of rocks is not a melting pot. It's just a pot full o' hot rocks.

I agree with you on learning English. However, I don't think it's necessary to expect immigrants to give up their culture just because they've moved here.

[Baron1710]

I will be your campaign manager!!! :happydance

Let’s lay out some more policy then...

If you are illegal and show up at the hospital to give birth we will deport you AND your baby.

If you employ an Illegal you will be charged the difference between what you paid him and the minimum wage plus a penalty and the cost of deporting him.

[Rico]

They shouldn't be allowed to have food stamps as illegals. I'm with tbstew - don't make people born here citizens just because they gave birth in our hospitals. That would alleviate a lot of problems - for a start.

I'm sorry, but this is bunch of hogwash. If you're born here that makes you a citizen, period. :boxing

[Ferd]

Sealing the southern boarder is a secruity issue. NOT an illegal mexican issue.

the issue is knowing who is coming into America and preventing those that have no legal business OUT.

We live in a time when there are millions around the world that want to distroy America and live for the day when they can kill Americans. they are using the southern boarder to get here.

sealing the southern boarder is also a HUMAN RIGHTS issue. Every single day, people are exploited and enslaved by criminals in an attempt to get to America. people die in the desert trying to get here illegally. It is just and human to stop people from coming here illegally. Once they get here, they often find that the only work they can get is below any living wage, they dont have access to the kinds of services we all take for granted. they fear contacting the police when they are violated.

We need to stop allowing exploitation of people, and increase the numbers of legal immagrents.

Please forgive the terrible spelling.

[Pressing-On]

Let’s lay out some more policy then...

If you are illegal and show up at the hospital to give birth we will deport you AND your baby.

If you employ an Illegal you will be charged the difference between what you paid him and the minimum wage plus a penalty and the cost of deporting him.

Good, except what if they are about to deliver? WWCD? What would a Christian do? That opens another can of worms.

But, I need to run. We will have to get these issues resolved and then - on the campaign trail!!! You'll be reigning before long. We could write you in for the November election!!!!

:happydance:happydance

[Pressing-On]

I'm sorry, but this is bunch of hogwash. If you're born here that makes you a citizen, period. :boxing

Not in my eyes. If BOTH parents are illegal the baby is illegal. No arguing with me now!!! :boxing

[Baron1710]

Good, except what if they are about to deliver? WWCD? What would a Christian do? That opens another can of worms.

But, I need to run. We will have to get these issues resolved and then - on the campaign trail!!! You'll be reigning before long. We could write you in for the November election!!!!

:happydance:happydance

I didn't say they couldn't deliver just that when they do they are both gone...because I am king remember?

[tstew]

I'm sorry, but this is bunch of hogwash. If you're born here that makes you a citizen, period. :boxing

Rico, it's not that way in other countries so it can't be that outlandish. I don't see the reason for the law. If I as an American city had my child in Germany, I would not expect my child to be German. The issue here is that the parents should already have citizenship somewhere, and unless that legal citizenship changes, the citizenship of the child should reflect that.
Either way, when you have people coming over just to deliver the baby for this reason you have the makings of a huge problem

[Pressing-On]

I didn't say they couldn't deliver just that when they do they are both gone...because I am king remember?

OKAY!!! That's a winner! I am on your team - sold out - solid!!!!

NOVEMBER '08


:happydance:happydance:happydance

[tstew]

Not in my eyes. If BOTH parents are illegal the baby is illegal. No arguing with me now!!! :boxing

I think we're still missing the point. The parents are not necessarily "illegals", they are legal citizens of another sovereign nation, and that should have an impact on the nationality of the child...it does in every other nation

[Pressing-On]

I think we're still missing the point. The parents are not necessarily "illegals", they are legal citizens of another sovereign nation, and that should have an impact on the nationality of the child...it does in every other nation

I do get your point, tstew. They are legal citizens of another country, that makes their child also a legal citizen of said country and makes all three illegal to the USA.

Is that what you are saying? I'm trying to log out for the day. lol

[tstew]

I agree with you on learning English. However, I don't think it's necessary to expect immigrants to give up their culture just because they've moved here.

I'm not saying to give up your culture. I personally have a rich cultural heritage that I do embrace and recognize...but I am an American period. I just say that in order for a melting pot to work there has to be some degree of assimilation.

[Ferd]

I am also in favor of aligators.

[tstew]

I do get your point, tstew. They are legal citizens of another country, that makes their child also a legal citizen of said country and makes all three illegal to the USA.

Is that what you are saying? I'm trying to log out for the day. lol

Exactly, that makes sense in every other country of the world, yet we seem to have a problem with it.

[Pressing-On]

I am also in favor of alligators.
Just have to like you, FERD! :toofunny:toofunny

[Pressing-On]

Exactly, that makes sense in every other country of the world, yet we seem to have a problem with it.

Agreed. I believe I read some legislation coming up to propose this. It's been some time, so I don't know where it is on the issue or who was proposing it for consideration.

[tstew]

Just have to like you, FERD! :toofunny:toofunny

I've learned to superimpose TIC onto every one of Ferd's posts. It makes life easier. :)

[Ferd]

Just have to like you, FERD! :toofunny:toofunny

well, I had to say something to get a response. my long serious comments didnt.

seriously though. the problem has less to do with those that are here than it does those that hire them and stoping bad guys from being bad.


you stop the bad guys and the employers of illegals you solve the problem in total.

[Pressing-On]

I've learned to superimpose TIC onto every one of Ferd's posts. It makes life easier. :)

LOL! Well, I think he's serious sometimes so the TIC isn't going to always work.

:toofunny

[Pressing-On]

well, I had to say something to get a response. my long serious comments didnt.

seriously though. the problem has less to do with those that are here than it does those that hire them and stoping bad guys from being bad.


you stop the bad guys and the employers of illegals you solve the problem in total.

Exactly!!!! Much involved on the money issue. You can get mad at my father, but we had a ranch in Pearsall that was a stopping point. My father would drive to pick up the illegals and bring them in for work. He said the white boys in HS didn't work as hard, so he didn't feel bad about doing that.

See how the deal goes? Lots involved. Money is thy name.

[Rico]

Not in my eyes. If BOTH parents are illegal the baby is illegal. No arguing with me now!!! :boxing

First of all, I will argue with you anytime I wants to! :boxing Secondly, being born here means you are a citizen, whether you like that or not! Take that! :pillowfight

[Ferd]

I've learned to superimpose TIC onto every one of Ferd's posts. It makes life easier. :)

Thats a pretty good rule. especially if it seems over the top. if i say something over the top, you can bet the intent is a joke....except wishing brittany spears was Oklahoma trailer trash..... the fact that she is louisiana trailer trash hurt my heart....

[Rico]

Rico, it's not that way in other countries so it can't be that outlandish. I don't see the reason for the law. If I as an American city had my child in Germany, I would not expect my child to be German. The issue here is that the parents should already have citizenship somewhere, and unless that legal citizenship changes, the citizenship of the child should reflect that.
Either way, when you have people coming over just to deliver the baby for this reason you have the makings of a huge problem

Those people have dual citizenship. I don't see why we have to model our laws after their laws.

[Rico]

I'm not saying to give up your culture. I personally have a rich cultural heritage that I do embrace and recognize...but I am an American period. I just say that in order for a melting pot to work there has to be some degree of assimilation.

I agree. That assimilation happens with the generations that follow the first generation to come here. I am a perfect example. My grandparents moved here from PR back in the 50s. I am the first generation born here in the States. I am totally American, McDonald's and everything. The old ways from PR are something I know very little about.

[Joie]

Where I live, there no way to get workers for less than $10.00 plus an hour. Minimum wage may work in some areas, not here.

[Joie]

How about we allow anyone who wants to work to come to the states, and all the Americans who are too lazy to work, but only leech off the government (and steal MY tax dollars)--ship them out of the country?

I like that plan better. :)

Heyyyyyy, now that is an idea!

[Ferd]

The great argument against illegals is that they take jobs from American citizens.

the great problem with that argument is that unemployment in the US is 5%

[Pressing-On]

The great argument against illegals is that they take jobs from American citizens.

the great problem with that argument is that unemployment in the US is 5%

True!

[Pressing-On]

First of all, I will argue with you anytime I wants to! :boxing Secondly, being born here means you are a citizen, whether you like that or not! Take that! :pillowfight
I hit back! :toofunny And I pull hair too! :happydance

[OnenessWoman]

I received this email today.



How horrible and mean-spirited is this?

I have a friend who used to regularly send me emails similar to this one. In fact, I saw this one months ago. This one was mild...

It also is not a workable solution, because I am sure that alligators from Florida would get homesick and want to, at least, want to dwelll somewhere that is similar to home, if not home.... That means they would probably end up in the Louisiana swamp... There are enough alligators there already. :gaga

I don't agree with the alligator thing, but I also don't believe in doing nothing. It is ridiculous here in Houston and only going to get worse. The stupidest law in America is that anyone born here is automatically a citizen. I believe we may be the only country with such a provision. I don't understand how two legal non entities (not saying non-human) can create a legal entity with the power to vote, etc... If we don't wake up there will be irreversable damage.

That one makes me sick, too... :girlytantrum

How about we allow anyone who wants to work to come to the states, and all the Americans who are too lazy to work, but only leech off the government (and steal MY tax dollars)--ship them out of the country?

I like that plan better. :)

It won't help illegal immigration....

Both are breaking the law. How do we know they are coming here to work? I will answer that for you we don't. They are not just Mexicans coming across the boarder, I just seen a news item on tv the other day about them arresting Asians and middle eastern folks coming across the Texas border. If we do not protect our borders as a nation it is similiar to not protecting our homes.

I agree with you. What I really don't get is why we don't treat ALL of these illegal aliens like the criminals that they are...

[OnenessWoman]

I agree with you about doing nothing. That's why I am in favor of building this wall. I also think it would make sense to give the illegals who are already here legal status, to put an end to all this nonsense with laws having to be passed and whatnot. Also, it would add several million legitimate taxpayers to the rolls. I don't think we should give them legal status until this wall is completed, however.


NOOOO!!! They should either get legal by the naturalization process -- not a pardon because of a wall that will only deter a few Mexicans -- or get treated like criminals!

[dizzyde]

First of all, I will argue with you anytime I wants to! :boxing Secondly, being born here means you are a citizen, whether you like that or not! Take that! :pillowfight

True. My daughters Swedish boyfriend was born here while his parents were in school. So, regardless of what he thinks about it (not that he has a problem with it) he has dual citizenship.

[Rico]

NOOOO!!! They should either get legal by the naturalization process -- not a pardon because of a wall that will only deter a few Mexicans -- or get treated like criminals!

You are entitled to your opinion. You are also entitled to be wrong. :D

[OnenessWoman]

Not sure that there is any way to absolutely shut people out even with a wall (that would cost a fortune to build, maintain, and monitor). I have always liked the idea of drying up the demand by fining the pants off anyone who hired without proper documentation.
I also just feel strongly about revoking the current citizenship law that grants citizenship to all born here. We are just creating millions of full voters with more allegiance to another sovereign nation and culture than ours. That's how you end up with ballots including whether English should be the official language in certain American towns.
I love the fact that America is truly becoming a melting pot, but that concept only works if what is in the pot is willing to melt. A pot of rocks is not a melting pot. It's just a pot full o' hot rocks.

I totally agree with you!

Have you ever seen what it takes to become naturalized? From what I have read, the process ain't too bad. They get tested on civics and English, though only a limited amount. They also have to renounce allegiance to foreign governments.

[jaxfam6]

I received this email today.



How horrible and mean-spirited is this?

Well it would solve a few problems don't ya think? might create some news ones but may solve a few as well.

[jaxfam6]

I agree with you about doing nothing. That's why I am in favor of building this wall. I also think it would make sense to give the illegals who are already here legal status, to put an end to all this nonsense with laws having to be passed and whatnot. Also, it would add several million legitimate taxpayers to the rolls. I don't think we should give them legal status until this wall is completed, however.


Only those that are here and working jobs and NOT having a criminal record. If they have been arrested or are not working ship them to wherever they came from and leave them there with the idea that the next time we find you in our country we will shoot first and ask questions later.
The criminal record is for HERE or THERE. You get in trouble there and come here you will not get in. You get in here and get in trouble you go back.

[Rico]

Only those that are here and working jobs and NOT having a criminal record. If they have been arrested or are not working ship them to wherever they came from and leave them there with the idea that the next time we find you in our country we will shoot first and ask questions later.
The criminal record is for HERE or THERE. You get in trouble there and come here you will not get in. You get in here and get in trouble you go back.

Yeah, I can get on board with shipping the illegals in our jails home. Shooting them on sight is not something I would advocate.

[1Corinth2v4]

I received this email today.



How horrible and mean-spirited is this?

Throw grenades in moat...........alligator boots......problem solved!

[jaxfam6]

Yeah, I can get on board with shipping the illegals in our jails home. Shooting them on sight is not something I would advocate.

I did not say I advocate it but they would certainly be left with the idea that it would happen. Might actually have to do it a few times to get it to sink in so they STOP trying to get back in.

[OnenessWoman]

Let’s lay out some more policy then...

If you are illegal and show up at the hospital to give birth we will deport you AND your baby.

If you employ an Illegal you will be charged the difference between what you paid him and the minimum wage plus a penalty and the cost of deporting him.


Baron for President!!!

Baron 2008!!!


Rico, it's not that way in other countries so it can't be that outlandish. I don't see the reason for the law. If I as an American city had my child in Germany, I would not expect my child to be German. The issue here is that the parents should already have citizenship somewhere, and unless that legal citizenship changes, the citizenship of the child should reflect that.
Either way, when you have people coming over just to deliver the baby for this reason you have the makings of a huge problem

You got that right!

I'm not saying to give up your culture. I personally have a rich cultural heritage that I do embrace and recognize...but I am an American period. I just say that in order for a melting pot to work there has to be some degree of assimilation.


Different cultures is what makes our country beautiful. Unfortunately, the landscape where I live now is pretty bland compared to culture from whence I came. I was able to experience a rich diversity of people back home... Here it is mostly salt with a little speckle of pepper here and there. I miss the other flavors! :tissue


I am also in favor of aligators.

Me too! They are quite yummy!!:gaga

[Rico]

I did not say I advocate it but they would certainly be left with the idea that it would happen. Might actually have to do it a few times to get it to sink in so they STOP trying to get back in.

As long as there is a United States and a Mexico, they're gonna find whatever way they can to get in here, illegal or otherwise. Unless, of course, we actually do something that makes sense, like issuing them work permits. What a novel idea that would be, huh?

[Rico]

Different cultures is what makes our country beautiful. Unfortunately, the landscape where I live now is pretty bland compared to culture from whence I came. I was able to experience a rich diversity of people back home... Here it is mostly salt with a little speckle of pepper here and there. I miss the other flavors! :tissue






What's the matter? Ain't this Rican spicy enough for you LA peoples? lol

[OnenessWoman]

Thats a pretty good rule. especially if it seems over the top. if i say something over the top, you can bet the intent is a joke....except wishing brittany spears was Oklahoma trailer trash..... the fact that she is louisiana trailer trash hurt my heart....

Yes! I had forgotten how silly you were and took you a bit too serious on that other thread with that one post. Of course, as I probably have written to you years ago, emoticons always help, Ferd.

Perhaps putting the :tic guy in your posts...or signature...may make a bit of a difference as to not confuse... :gaga

[OnenessWoman]

What's the matter? Ain't this Rican spicy enough for you LA peoples? lol

ROFL!!

I was thinking that it has been a long time since I have seen anyone who has a Middle Eastern or Far Eastern background. Me would likey to see some Asians every once in a while... :gaga

[Rico]

ROFL!!

I was thinking that it has been a long time since I have seen anyone who has a Middle Eastern or Far Eastern background. Me would likey to see some Asians every once in a while... :gaga

Did you know we have a Chinese restaurant here in town? Shocking, to say the least! :D

[OnenessWoman]

Seems one of my posts did not go through... Yes, Rico. I have a right to be wrong...but I am not wrong on this one. People who break our laws in our country should not be rewarded with citizenship.

[Rico]

Seems one of my posts did not go through... Yes, Rico. I have a right to be wrong...but I am not wrong on this one. People who break our laws in our country should not be rewarded with citizenship.


OW, what do you propose we do with the 12-14 MILLION of them that are already here?

[Esther]

Thanks PO right back at you. One of my biggest issues as a resident and taxpayer here in Houston is the financial burden of absorbing so many people who are not even able to share the tax burden. I saw an interview with a mayor in a smaller town who was complaining that his real population had doubled in ten years, but the city revenues were still the same. So they were having to try to provide twice the service for no more money. More people mean more police, medical services, schools and school related costs (food, teachers, buildings, materials, etc), and other services that the city and county must provide. The city was going to have to declare bankruptcy.

I worked there in the medical system and I can tell you they have just about busted the medical system due to NO insurance. They are not the only ones, but the primary ones.

[Esther]

OW, what do you propose we do with the 12-14 MILLION of them that are already here?

What is wrong with making them obey our LAWS?

[Rico]

What is wrong with making them obey our LAWS?

If you don't give them legal working status, what do you propose we do with them?

[OnenessWoman]

Did you know we have a Chinese restaurant here in town? Shocking, to say the least! :D

Yes! I have eaten there. Never again!!!!

When we want Chinese we go to O-Town. Funny thing is the last time I saw culture was at that Chinese restaurant. The workers were all of Asian decent, there were several white and black folks eating....And then some Mexicans walked in!!! It was awesome...a beautiful thing! All I needed was some Middle Eastern folks to walk and and I would have been in heaven... :toofunny

[Rico]

Yes! I have eaten there. Never again!!!!

When we want Chinese we go to O-Town. Funny thing is the last time I saw culture was at that Chinese restaurant. The workers were all of Asian decent, there were several white and black folks eating....And then some Mexicans walked in!!! It was awesome...a beautiful thing! All I needed was some Middle Eastern folks to walk and and I would have been in heaven... :toofunny

LOL! I've never eaten there myself.

[Joie]

ROFL!!

I was thinking that it has been a long time since I have seen anyone who has a Middle Eastern or Far Eastern background. Me would likey to see some Asians every once in a while... :gaga

I was thinking that it has been a long time since I have seen anyone who has a Middle Eastern or Far Eastern background. Me would likey to see some Asians every once in a while...

Sis Oneness...IS the above statement for real... really true?. Do you really live in the USA.... what state?
Hey, Sis, I am not sure I have seen a real American today???? That actually is how I feel some of the time :):)

[TRFrance]

Thanks PO right back at you. One of my biggest issues as a resident and taxpayer here in Houston is the financial burden of absorbing so many people who are not even able to share the tax burden. I saw an interview with a mayor in a smaller town who was complaining that his real population had doubled in ten years, but the city revenues were still the same. So they were having to try to provide twice the service for no more money. More people mean more police, medical services, schools and school related costs (food, teachers, buildings, materials, etc), and other services that the city and county must provide. The city was going to have to declare bankruptcy.

You can also add our [already-overcrowded] prisons to that list.

...Not to mention the lives of American citizens who become victims of crimes by illegal aliens.
...And lost tax revenue from illegals who work off the books so the IRS never gets to receive tax revenue from them.
... And the depressed wages [and thus, reduced take-home pay] of American workers in certain job fields-- since the presence of illegals puts downward pressure on the already-low wages in fields where illegals are competing with Americans for the jobs.
... And the job opportunities taken away from hard working American poor people who would have done those jobs if the illegals hadn't been there to take those jobs from them.

[OnenessWoman]

OW, what do you propose we do with the 12-14 MILLION of them that are already here?

What is wrong with making them obey our LAWS?


Rico, I defer you to Baron's ideas of having their all-expense paid trip provided by the Amercan's who are employing them illegally... And Esther's as well. I also spoke of having some become naturalized. It WOULD have to be on a case-by-case basis, which would only further be a drain on our own system, I am certain, but it would save us some trouble in the long run.



Sis Oneness...IS the above statement for real... really true?. Do you really live in the USA.... what state?
Hey, Sis, I am not sure I have seen a real American today???? That actually is how I feel some of the time :):)

I'm not too far from Riconess, but I am not from here. When I was here just a few months I asked where the black people were because I was so tired of only seeing white people...and the few Mexicans at the laudromat. Rico and Sis. Honey Smooches were the only people of any sort of color I had seen beside them...and I am from where the population is 85% black.

What is a "real American"? I used to work with an American woman who was from Iran. We had clients who were naturalized Middle Eastern decendants, just as she was. These people were just as much American as I, a natural born citizen, am. Certainly, you don't go around asking everyone if they have been naturalized?!?! lol

[Rico]

Rico, I defer you to Baron's ideas of having their all-expense paid trip provided by the Amercan's who are employing them illegally... And Esther's as well. I also spoke of having some become naturalized. It WOULD have to be on a case-by-case basis, which would only further be a drain on our own system, I am certain, but it would save us some trouble in the long run.







Ok, Sister, let's look at that approach. We pass a federal law that says any employer caught employing illegals has to pay for their trip back to wherever they came from. What would be the likely result of that law? Millions of illegals would be out of a job pretty quick, correct? That still would not solve the problem because they would still be here.

[Joie]

Sis Oneness...but there is not a State in the US with 85 percent blacks.

Suppose being in the business I am in, I rarely run across a natural born American.
Have bought from wholesalers since 1973 dealing with few natural born Americans. Most wholesalers here in DAllas speak English as a second language.

[OnenessWoman]

Ok, Sister, let's look at that approach. We pass a federal law that says any employer caught employing illegals has to pay for their trip back to wherever they came from. What would be the likely result of that law? Millions of illegals would be out of a job pretty quick, correct? That still would not solve the problem because they would still be here.


There have already been employers who have been fined for employing illegal immigrants. Oneness Man used to work at a place that was fined $10,000/illegal... That was in Delaware.

The other end of the solution was for them to, additionally, provide funds to ship these same illegals back to their homelands. If they have been shipped back to their homelands, then how could they still be here?

[OnenessWoman]

Sis Oneness...but there is not a State in the US with 85 percent blacks.

Suppose being in the business I am in, I rarely run across a natural born American.
Have bought from wholesalers since 1973 dealing with few natural born Americans. Most wholesalers here in DAllas speak English as a second language.


I did not say that the state I am from is 85% black. I said "where" I am from. I was speaking of a specific city. My % number may not be accurate, but it is certainly close. It's been a while since I have looked at the stats.

[Rico]

There have already been employers who have been fined for employing illegal immigrants. Oneness Man used to work at a place that was fined $10,000/illegal... That was in Delaware.

The other end of the solution was for them to, additionally, provide funds to ship these same illegals back to their homelands. If they have been shipped back to their homelands, then how could they still be here?

Ok. Maybe I am not making my point correctly. Let's say, for example, that there are 10 million illegals employed in the USA. We pass a federal law that makes companies have to pay to ship illegals they employ back to their homeland. The result of that law would be that millions of illegals would lost their jobs before the law would even take effect. They'd still be here then. With no way for them to pay what it would cost for them to go back to their native country, not only would they turn to crime to support themselves, but we'd still have to figure out what to do with them. Rounding them all up is simply not a feasible option because of the costs involved in doing so.

I believe the better solution would be to finish sealing off the border and giving the illegals that are already here legal status. That way they could legitimately be added to the tax base, the population stats, and the tax money raised would offset the costs involved with their healthcare.

[mizpeh]

*sigh*

I believe in securing borders as well. But not in such a way as to cause undue or gruesome deaths.

I have a feeling you boys think the alligator thing is funny, but I don't. I suppose it isn't a criminal I'm visualizing crossing the moat, but a mother with some children in tow. That just doesn't work out as being humorous in my head.

We are Christians first, citizens of the USA second.

Who would be stupid enough to take their child into an alligator infested river? It's not like they are running for their lives to get out of Mexico.

[mizpeh]

Baron, there is no point in killing or maiming those who try to come here. That's not what we're about.

Let them come in through the front door then. We aren't maiming and killing them if they chose to swim in alligator infested waters.

[mizpeh]

There's already a good chance of dying from exposure in the desert while making the trip. That doesn't seem to be a deterrent. I don't see how killing or maiming them is such a good idea, Bro. It kinda goes against my Christianness, if you know what I mean.

Where is Old Paths for a good one-liner when you need him?

[dizzyde]

You can also add our [already-overcrowded] prisons to that list.

...Not to mention the lives of American citizens who become victims of crimes by illegal aliens.
...And lost tax revenue from illegals who work off the books so the IRS never gets to receive tax revenue from them.
... And the depressed wages [and thus, reduced take-home pay] of American workers in certain job fields-- since the presence of illegals puts downward pressure on the already-low wages in fields where illegals are competing with Americans for the jobs.
... And the job opportunities taken away from hard working American poor people who would have done those jobs if the illegals hadn't been there to take those jobs from them.

Sorry, I had to interject a few things here from personal experience. I don't know the answer to this issue, but over generalization doesn't help anything.

As far as being victimized by an illegal, living in an area that has a huge Mexican immigrant presence, I don't see all that many violent crimes being committed by them, except to each other occasionally.

I grew up going to elementary school where as a white girl, I was in the extreme minority. I lived in neighborhoods where the white people were the minority. I was never afraid. As a matter of fact, my 80 year old grandmother came home from church recently on a Sunday morning, and found her illegal immigrant neighbors putting up a handrail on her front porch to make it easier for her to get up the steps.

As far as them taking away poor hardworking Americans jobs, in the area I live, there are NO poor Americans who would be willing to do the work that they do for pretty much any amount of money. Those poor people would much prefer to stay home and draw a welfare check.

I realize this is not the story every where, but it is what I have seen. Again, this is not a topic with easy answers.

[Joie]

Rank, City, Percentage Black. 1, Detroit, Michigan, 83.73. 2, Gary, Indiana, 81.35 ...
as googled...

Guess interested because Dallas now has 45 percent natural born Americans and 55 per cent minorities.

Massive groups of Latinos are out waiting for a day's work. If you look like you need someone, they will actually jump out at cars...

[stmatthew]

There's already a good chance of dying from exposure in the desert while making the trip. That doesn't seem to be a deterrent. I don't see how killing or maiming them is such a good idea, Bro. It kinda goes against my Christianness, if you know what I mean.

Where is Old Paths for a good one-liner when you need him?


Now this right here is F-U-N-N-Y!!!!!!!! :toofunny

[stmatthew]

I thing the problem is that many do not see illegal immigrants as ILLEGAL. I am a man of compassion, but these folks are criminals, and should be treated as such.

[TRFrance]

As far as them taking away poor hardworking Americans jobs, in the area I live, there are NO poor Americans who would be willing to do the work that they do for pretty much any amount of money. Those poor people would much prefer to stay home and draw a welfare check.

I realize this is not the story every where, but it is what I have seen. Again, this is not a topic with easy answers.
Dizzy,... you name it: whether it's dishwashers, construction workers, apple pickers, whatever... if the illegals aliens weren't there doing those jobs (sometimes at below minimum wage in unsafe conditions) those jobs would get done... by Americans... at better, fair, wages.

[Rico]

I thing the problem is that many do not see illegal immigrants as ILLEGAL. I am a man of compassion, but these folks are criminals, and should be treated as such.

Are you willing to pay what it would cost to jail them or round them all up and send them back to their native countries? Think before you answer. We are talking about 12-14 million people.

[Rico]

Dizzy,... you name it: whether it's dishwashers, construction workers, apple pickers, whatever... if the illegals aliens weren't there doing those jobs (sometimes at below minimum wage in unsafe conditions) those jobs would get done... by Americans... at better, fair, wages.


Yeah, right. Kinda like all those Americans working at McDonald's for minimum wage.

[TRFrance]

Sorry, I had to interject a few things here from personal experience. I don't know the answer to this issue, but over generalization doesn't help anything.

As far as being victimized by an illegal, living in an area that has a huge Mexican immigrant presence, I don't see all that many violent crimes being committed by them, except to each other occasionally.

I realize this is not the story every where, but it is what I have seen. Again, this is not a topic with easy answers.

Certainly, crimes by illegal aliens may not be a problem where you live, but in some parts of the country it's a problem. And frankly, even ONE American losing their life to someone who's here illegally is too much!

Check this link and you'll see what I mean: http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

[dizzyde]

Dizzy,... you name it: whether it's dishwashers, construction workers, apple pickers, whatever... if the illegals aliens weren't there doing those jobs (sometimes at below minimum wage in unsafe conditions) those jobs would get done... by Americans... at better, fair, wages.


Well, I don't know of any in Bakersfield who would be willing to work in the fields in 110 degrees blistering heat. Not when they also have the lovely opportunity of occasionally being sprayed with insecticide. This actually happens.

Like I said, this is what I have seen, maybe changing things would make it different, I don't know. I do know there are a bunch of lazy Americans on welfare around here. (I am not attacking people being on welfare for legitimate reasons, I have been a recipient of financial aid in my life as well. I am talking about the people who abuse the system.)

[TRFrance]

Yeah, right. Kinda like all those Americans working at McDonald's for minimum wage.

Rico, at least take the blinders off once in a while and acknowledge reality.

What about the American construction worker who is told point blank by foremen that for the same rate at which they would have hired him, they can hire 2-3 illegals for same money... no overtime pay, with no health benefits,etc. ? Happens continually all over this country. That doesn't seem unfair to you?

Or the the field workers who work 12-15 hr days for way below minimum wage, no overtime pay, poor/unsafe safety conditions, no health benefits etc?.. (at a job that could have been taken by a poor American for minimum wage or higher, under better working conditions). Are you so blinded by your liberal ideology that that kind of stuff doesn't matter to you?

[stmatthew]

Are you willing to pay what it would cost to jail them or round them all up and send them back to their native countries? Think before you answer. We are talking about 12-14 million people.

IF the government would simply close the boarders, and then begin the process of making it more "uncomfortable" for those that hire illegal immigrants, then the illegals would be forced to return home.


And with many of our jobs going over there, they will likely have work when they get back home. :gaga

[TRFrance]

Well, I don't know of any in Bakersfield who would be willing to work in the fields in 110 degrees blistering heat. Not when they also have the lovely opportunity of occasionally being sprayed with insecticide. This actually happens.


Dizzy... its difficult, backbreaking work at times. Nobody argues that it's not.
But if the illegals weren't here the work would have gotten done... (just the way Americans have done difficult backbreaking work before the 12-18 million illegals got here) ...just at higher, fairer pay.

And if you're bothered by the insecticide they're having sprayed all over them, that's just another level of immoral behavior added to the mix here... Because if those were legal American residents or US citizens, they know the Americans would complain about hazardous working conditions, but illegals are too scare to complain to anyone.

There's a lot of greed and lawlessness at the root of all this. I wish Christians would focus more on the SIN issues that are at the root of a lot of this. That part of it should still matter to us, I think.

[Rico]

Rico, at least take the blinders off once in a while and acknowledge reality.

What about the American construction worker who is told point blank by foremen that for the same rate at which they would have hired him, they can hire 2-3 illegals for same money... no overtime pay, with no health benefits,etc. ? Happens continually all over this country. That doesn't seem unfair to you?

Or the the field workers who work 12-15 hr days for way below minimum wage, no overtime pay, poor/unsafe safety conditions, no health benefits etc?.. (at a job that could have been taken by a poor American for minimum wage or higher, under better working conditions). Are you so blinded by your liberal ideology that that kind of stuff doesn't matter to you?



You talk about reality, but the reality is that money is king in the USA. We buy products made in China without giving a second thought to the slave labor used to make them. You complain about what a problem these illegal aliens are, but you are more than willing to pay less for your food at the grocery store because of their cheap labor (never mind the fact that you'd be lucky to find Americans willing to work those long hours). You say you are for the construction worker, but I don't doubt for a minute that you would hire a contractor with a lower bid (because of using illegals) to save money on a remodel job.

It's easy to talk about what should be done with these illegal aliens. It's easy to simply say we should round them up and send them back. The reality is that it's entirely too late for that kind of solution to this problem. If you want to level the playing field, give them all legal status, make them pay taxes like the rest of us, and stand back and watch how quickly they realize they can work for better wages due to not having to hide all the time.

[Rico]

Another point you all seem to be missing as well is that these illegals are contributing to our economy. They all have to eat, buy clothes, pay utility bills, buy cars, etc., just like you or me. They contribute to the money states collect on sales tax because they pay it just like the rest of us. One area of our economy they don't contribute to is paying federal income taxes or social security taxes. I wonder what the addition of 12 million tax payers to our system would do for social security.

[TRFrance]

You talk about reality, but the reality is that money is king in the USA. We buy products made in China without giving a second thought to the slave labor used to make them. You complain about what a problem these illegal aliens are, but you are more than willing to pay less for your food at the grocery store because of their cheap labor (never mind the fact that you'd be lucky to find Americans willing to work those long hours). You say you are for the construction worker, but I don't doubt for a minute that you would hire a contractor with a lower bid (because of using illegals) to save money on a remodel job.



This is why it's so ridiculous talking with you about this kind of stuff, Rico.
So many unfair and unjustified assumptions there... just so you can try and maintain your point you're trying to support.

First off, you seem to assume and imply that I would not be willing to pay more for food etc, if the employers hired LEGAL workers. For the record, yes I would despite your assumptions

Then again you assume that I'd be willing to hire a contractor who's hiring illegals [thus breaking the law in the process], just because he has a lower bid. Again, an incorrect assumption.
You don't even know me, Rico, so how can you even make such an assumption about what I would do?

Its amazing the way you think. What's worse is that many of the people who run our country think the same way.
God help America.

[Rico]

This is why it's so ridiculous talking with you about this kind of stuff, Rico.


Then why bother, TRFrance? If you only knew how sick I am getting of people like you making these idiotic comments it isn't even funny. Go talk with Carp. Maybe he's more to your taste.

[Oneness Man]

Did you know we have a Chinese restaurant here in town? Shocking, to say the least! :D

It's pretty nasty too. Yucky and I love Chinese food. There is a good one, but you have to go to Owensboro and it is the best food that I have tasted in these parts.

[Rico]

It's pretty nasty too. Yucky and I love Chinese food. There is a good one, but you have to go to Owensboro and it is the best food that I have tasted in these parts.

Better than OW? Better think before you answer! :D

[Oneness Man]

OW, what do you propose we do with the 12-14 MILLION of them that are already here?

Take them to the swamps. I wonder what the gaters would think? Probably, a little too gamey for me, but I'll still eat it.

[TRFrance]

This is why it's so ridiculous talking with you about this kind of stuff, Rico.
So many unfair and unjustified assumptions there... just so you can try and maintain your point you're trying to support.


Then why bother, TRFrance? If you only knew how sick I am getting of people like you making these idiotic comments it isn't even funny. Go talk with Carp. Maybe he's more to your taste.
So you think it's idiotic when I state that a) illegal immigrants are taking jobs from American poor people, and b) illegal aliens put downward pressure on wages for low paying jobs, hurting American poor people (?!)

If you really think that, then your factual knowledge of this issue is somewhat lacking, sorry to say.

Have a good night.

PS.
"Why bother", you ask? Well keep in mind that you're the one who jumped in to respond to comments I had made to another poster on this topic (see post #110), so its not like I went out of my way to bring this up to you. I've already seen mindset on this issue.

[Oneness Man]

Better than OW? Better think before you answer! :D

She loves the food there too and so does James. That makes it a miracle when all three of us like food from the same place. It's a miracle!!!!

[Rico]

So you think it's idiotic when I state that a) illegal immigrants are taking jobs from American poor people, and b) illegal aliens put downward pressure on wages for low paying jobs, hurting American poor people (?!)

If you really think that, then your factual knowledge of this issue is somewhat lacking, sorry to say.

Have a good night.

No. I think it's idiotic that you can't have a conversation with me without feeling you have to tell me how ridiculous it is to do so. At least I am offering some solutions to this problem with illegal immigration, rather than doing little more than complaining about what a big problem their being here has become. Face the facts, they're here and getting rid of them would simply cost entirely too much.

Have you stopped to consider what it would cost just in fuel to ship 12 million people across the border in buses? It would take almost 185,000 busloads at 65 people per bus. 185,000. How do you propose we round them up? Do we go door to door? How much would that cost? How about the costs involved with keeping them in confinement until the bus came to take them home? What would that cost? How much of an impact would their being gone have on an already strained housing market? Who is going to replace 12 million people living in the houses and apartments they are renting? What happens when the people who own these houses have to add their rental property to a market that has already collapsed? Who gets to bear the burden of those costs?

[Rico]

She loves the food there too and so does James. That makes it a miracle when all three of us like food from the same place. It's a miracle!!!!

Nice dodge, but ya didn't answer my question. lol

[Esther]

If you don't give them legal working status, what do you propose we do with them?

Why should we give them legal working status when they break the law?

[Oneness Man]

Nice dodge, but ya didn't answer my question. lol

What questions?

[Rico]

Why should we give them legal working status when they break the law?

Because it's the only option we would all benefit from, Esther.

[Rico]

What questions?

About liking their cooking better than hers. Forget it, Bro. The moment has passed! :lol

[tstew]

I know people who are losing their house primarily because of the taxes in escrow. Almost 80% of the taxes are school tax (of course other taxes pay for city and county services as well). But if a significant percentage of the students who are driving up the cost of education, free lunches, teachers, etc...are coming from households that cannot contribute, I feel it is an unfair tax burden. I have already given an example of an entire city that is bankrupt because of this phenomenon. I also think that having such a large concentrated population with no allegiance to our country is potentially harmful especially when it is producing legal citizens with the right to vote here.

[tstew]

No. I think it's idiotic that you can't have a conversation with me without feeling you have to tell me how ridiculous it is to do so. At least I am offering some solutions to this problem with illegal immigration, rather than doing little more than complaining about what a big problem their being here has become. Face the facts, they're here and getting rid of them would simply cost entirely too much.

Have you stopped to consider what it would cost just in fuel to ship 12 million people across the border in buses? It would take almost 185,000 busloads at 65 people per bus. 185,000. How do you propose we round them up? Do we go door to door? How much would that cost? How about the costs involved with keeping them in confinement until the bus came to take them home? What would that cost? How much of an impact would their being gone have on an already strained housing market? Who is going to replace 12 million people living in the houses and apartments they are renting? What happens when the people who own these houses have to add their rental property to a market that has already collapsed? Who gets to bear the burden of those costs?

I'm not advocating shipping them back as a first option. If you dry up the demand by severely punishing employers, many will get back the way they came themselves. Or maybe we can allow them free passage back to their nation of legality. Also, many others will choose not to come in the first place.

[SDG]

Another point you all seem to be missing as well is that these illegals are contributing to our economy. They all have to eat, buy clothes, pay utility bills, buy cars, etc., just like you or me. They contribute to the money states collect on sales tax because they pay it just like the rest of us. One area of our economy they don't contribute to is paying federal income taxes or social security taxes. I wonder what the addition of 12 million tax payers to our system would do for social security.

This notion is that undocumented immigrants are not paying taxes is a myth .. many have tax id numbers ... and those who are serious of one day being legal are rushing to do so ... because many believe the law says that if the want to apply one day for legal status they must pay ...

From 1996 to 2003 more than 50 billion dollars was paid by those w/ tax id numbers ... and that doesn't include now that that law changed for legal applications in 2006.

Many of the undocumented at Dad's old church if not all paid income taxes .... plus they pay sales taxes and property taxes if they own a home

Immigration Korner
More Undocumented Immigrants Rush To File Taxes

By Felicia Persaud

CaribWorldNews, BOSTON, Massachusetts, Fri. Feb. 29, 2008: Undocumented immigrants are pouring into tax-preparation offices and nonprofit agencies across Massachusetts and the nation to file state and federal income taxes, taking a step that some might deem unthinkable: giving their name, address, and financial information to the government.

In Massachusetts, taxpayers here illegally are lining up, despite the fear of deportation that is permeating the state after a massive raid in New Bedford last year and smaller raids in Boston-area cities and towns.

While typical American taxpayers are wary of the Internal Revenue Service, undocumented immigrants see the IRS as a friendly agency that could help in their quest for legal residency.

TOPICS: Ilegal Immigrants, Illegal Immigration, Illegal Aliens, Undocumented immigrants, taxes, tax-preparation offices, Massachusetts, New Bedford, Boston, raids, American taxpayers, Internal Revenue Service, quest for legal residency, Community Economic Development Center, IRS, individual taxpayer identification numbers, or ITINs,Social Security number, taxpayers, taxes, immigration status, deport, deportations

`It's catching on that this is one of the things that you do` as a resident of the United States, said Corinn Williams, executive director of the Community Economic Development Center in New Bedford, which is getting 10 calls a day, double the number it got a year ago, from immigrants who want help filing taxes. `If you're making a case that you want to stay here, without a doubt that's one of the things that the judge is going to look at.`

The IRS created nine-digit individual taxpayer identification numbers, or ITINs, in 1996, to better track the tax returns of those who are ineligible for a Social Security number. Most taxpayers who use ITINs are believed to be illegal immigrants, though some legal residents - foreign investors, for example - also have them.

In Massachusetts 39,221 ITIN holders filed taxes for the 2006 tax year, up 20 percent from the previous year. Nationally, more than 2.1 million such taxpayers filed in the 2005 tax year, the most recent year available, up nearly 37 percent from the year before.

IRS officials warn taxpayers that filing taxes does not affect their immigration status. But a US Senate proposal in 2006 would have required illegal immigrants to pay back taxes as part of their application for legal residency, fueling the hopes of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in this country.

The rising number of taxpayers parallels the national debate about what to do about illegal immigration. Advocates point to paying taxes as proof that immigrants help the economy. From 1996 to 2003, according to an IRS study, ITIN holders were responsible for paying the government almost $50 billion, most of which was withheld from their paychecks.

But critics of illegal immigration say paying taxes should not help illegal workers become legal residents. The workers, they say, cost taxpayers millions of dollars in healthcare, education, and other services.

`We are not a nation of taxpayers. That is not the standard by which you attain membership in our society,` said Ira Mehlman, spokesman for the Washington-based Federation for American Immigration Reform, which urges the IRS to use its records to help deport people. `It doesn't buy you a ticket in.`

The IRS does not generally share the taxpayers' information with federal immigration agents, said IRS spokeswoman Nancy Mathis, and neither does the Massachusetts Department of Revenue, said Commissioner Navjeet Bal. Anyone who earns income here, including illegal immigrants, must pay taxes, state and federal government officials say.

`The tax code, which is enacted by Congress and signed by the president, does not recognize immigration status,` Mathis said. "Anyone who has US-sourced income of a certain amount must pay US taxes."

The New Bedford raid starkly illustrates the difference between the goals of the IRS and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Last March, federal immigration agents raided a leather-goods factory and arrested 361 illegal immigrants - many of whom also filed taxes. So a few weeks after federal immigration agents arrested the illegal immigrants, the IRS sent some of them refund checks.

Immigrants say the hope that they will one day become legal residents, and the fact that the IRS keeps their information private, helps them overcome their fear of filing taxes.

Eoin Reilly, a lawyer and board member of the Irish Immigration Center, said he has used immigrants' tax records, in part, to persuade immigration judges not to deport them. Paying taxes, he said, shows a judge that they have good moral character, and he believes that it has helped.

[Oneness Man]

About liking their cooking better than hers. Forget it, Bro. The moment has passed! :lol

I don't eat her food unless it is her lasagna(the best) and I am the one usually cooking.

When she makes Apple Pie for me, it is also the best. There might be some other things but I can't think of them right now.

[Rico]

I know people who are losing their house primarily because of the taxes in escrow. Almost 80% of the taxes are school tax (of course other taxes pay for city and county services as well). But if a significant percentage of the students who are driving up the cost of education, free lucnhes, teachers, etc...are coming from households that cannot contribute, I feel it is an unfair tax burden. I have already given an example of an entire city that is bankrupt because of this phenomenon. I also think that having such a large concentrated population with no allegiance to our country is potentially harmful especially when it is producing legal citizens with the right to vote here.

Brother, how many illegal aliens have you known? I used to live in Los Angeles. Because I speak Spanish, I was able to get to know many of these people. The overwhelming majority of these people want the same things as you and I. They want to work and raise their families. They're not interested in wreaking havoc on America. The only real complaint I have with them is that they don't learn English. I am sure that a big part of that is because they are afraid of coming out of hiding to take the classes to learn the language. I believe this language problem is another one that legalizing them would go a long way in solving.

Also, them being legal would provide more than enough incentive for them to buy houses, thereby contributing to the property taxes. I had a client, when I worked up north in insurance, who was here illegally and then got in with the amnesty program that was offered several years ago. Once he got legal, he bought himself a run down down and worked on it until it is now one of the nicer houses along the street he lives on. The house, along with all his vehicles, was paid for, free and clear. The majority of these people are good people, Brother.

[Rico]

This notion is that undocumented immigrants are not paying taxes is a myth .. many have tax id numbers ... and those who are serious of one day being legal are rushing to do so ... because many believe the law says that if the want to apply one day for legal status they must pay ...

From 1996 to 2003 more than 50 billion dollars was paid by those w/ tax id numbers ... and that doesn't include now that that law changed for legal applications in 2006.

Many of the undocumented at Dad's old church if not all paid income taxes .... plus they pay sales taxes and property taxes if they own a home

I

Hmmmmm. Very interesting. I did not know about this. Are illegals the only ones with these ITIN numbers?

[SDG]

Hmmmmm. Very interesting. I did not know about this. Are illegals the only ones with these ITIN numbers?

No some foreign investors but the bulk are illegals ... my ex-wife had one ... I've watched illegals have their taxes prepared ....

I'm so sick and tired of the myths and half-truths perpetuated by folks about this subject ... especially here on a Christian forum ...

[Esther]

Ok. Maybe I am not making my point correctly. Let's say, for example, that there are 10 million illegals employed in the USA. We pass a federal law that makes companies have to pay to ship illegals they employ back to their homeland. The result of that law would be that millions of illegals would lost their jobs before the law would even take effect. They'd still be here then. With no way for them to pay what it would cost for them to go back to their native country, not only would they turn to crime to support themselves, but we'd still have to figure out what to do with them. Rounding them all up is simply not a feasible option because of the costs involved in doing so.

I believe the better solution would be to finish sealing off the border and giving the illegals that are already here legal status. That way they could legitimately be added to the tax base, the population stats, and the tax money raised would offset the costs involved with their healthcare.

I disagree with this. Just as I would disagree with giving a criminal the right to stay in society and keep committing crimes. If he steals to feed his family or his vice, he is still stealing. It is simply not right!
I thing the problem is that many do not see illegal immigrants as ILLEGAL. I am a man of compassion, but these folks are criminals, and should be treated as such.


I agree!

Are you willing to pay what it would cost to jail them or round them all up and send them back to their native countries? Think before you answer. We are talking about 12-14 million people.

Another point you all seem to be missing as well is that these illegals are contributing to our economy. They all have to eat, buy clothes, pay utility bills, buy cars, etc., just like you or me. They contribute to the money states collect on sales tax because they pay it just like the rest of us. One area of our economy they don't contribute to is paying federal income taxes or social security taxes. I wonder what the addition of 12 million tax payers to our system would do for social security.

They are also sending much of their income home to their families. That is money leaving our economy.

There has also been documented abuse to the workers. It is not in their best interest to work here illegally.

I agree it would cost a lot to send them home, yet it is costing a lot now for their medical, education, and crimes they are committing.

I heard someone suggest jail them for one year and make them work for their return fare home.

For some it would be better conditions from what I have heard about some jails, with ac, cable, work out rooms, and educations.

If we open the door to these criminals what next?

Should we just let the muslins take over as well? There are a lot of them here also.

[tstew]

Brother, how many illegal aliens have you known? I used to live in Los Angeles. Because I speak Spanish, I was able to get to know many of these people. The overwhelming majority of these people want the same things as you and I. They want to work and raise their families. They're not interested in wreaking havoc on America. The only real complaint I have with them is that they don't learn English. I am sure that a big part of that is because they are afraid of coming out of hiding to take the classes to learn the language. I believe this language problem is another one that legalizing them would go a long way in solving.

Also, them being legal would provide more than enough incentive for them to buy houses, thereby contributing to the property taxes. I had a client, when I worked up north in insurance, who was here illegally and then got in with the amnesty program that was offered several years ago. Once he got legal, he bought himself a run down down and worked on it until it is now one of the nicer houses along the street he lives on. The house, along with all his vehicles, was paid for, free and clear. The majority of these people are good people, Brother.

Brother Rico, I do interact with some. But I think that an appropriate question to ask is how many people do you know all over the world who would love to come to America and pursue those same things. Being raised on the mission field, travelling extensively, having a mother who herself went through the naturalization process after years of marriage to my father an Army vet...I can address that with a level of authority. I personally know many people in many countries who long for that American dream. I am even related to some. Some have degrees and careers and are hardworking law-abiders who would be a great asset to any community here.
I stressed law-abiders because that's what they are and due to their respect for our laws as a sovereign nation, they are willing to pursue their dream the legal way. Many will never get here because of the strigent laws and all the things that must go right.

[Esther]

One thing that I think needs to be noted. Perhaps we need to revise our legal status requirements.

[SDG]

Another myth ... Illegals send most of their money overseas ...

Fewer immigrants living in the United States are sending money back to their home countries. A survey by the Inter-American Development Bank shows remittances by Hispanic immigrants are flat. But the percentage of immigrants sending money home to Latin America is down dramatically in just two years. The report cites the U.S. economic slowdown and a tougher line on illegal immigrants.ALSO ... many legal immigrants engage in this family-oriented practice ...

WASHINGTON — Fewer immigrants from Latin America are regularly sending money to their home countries because of the slumping U.S. economy and a growing "anti-immigrant" climate, a survey released Wednesday found.
As a consequence, millions of poor families in Latin America will not get the vital help that the money provides, the survey by the Inter-American Development Bank (IDB) concluded.

"This snapshot in time is not a pretty picture," said Donald F. Terry, general manager of the IDB's Multilateral Investment Fund, at a press conference.

Terry called the remittances "the most effective and important poverty-reduction program in Latin America."
The survey found that half of immigrants — both legal and illegal — were sending money regularly back to their home countries in Latin America this year, compared to 73 percent in 2006.

Despite the drop, the total amount of the remittances is projected to stay roughly level over the same time period, at around $45 billion, because the average amount of each remittance has increased and there are more Latin Americans in the United States, the survey found.
Sergio Bendixen, a veteran pollster whose Miami-based company carried out the survey, said that the amount of the remittances has stagnated after years of explosive growth. For example, from 2004 to 2006, remittances from the United States to Latin America increased from $30 billion to $45 billion.

In Texas, the total amount of remittances is projected to drop by about $1 billion compared to two years ago — from about $5.2 billion in 2006 to $4.2 billion in 2008. In addition, the percentage of immigrants from Latin America who are sending money home regularly dropped from 47 percent to 30 percent, the survey found.

In Georgia, the total amount of remittances is projected to drop by about $300 million compared to two years ago — from about $1.7 billion in 2006 to $1.4 billion in 2008. In addition, the percentage of immigrants from Latin America who are sending money home regularly dropped from 85 percent in 2006 to 53 percent in 2008, the survey found.

In Florida, the total amount of remittances is projected to decrease by about $12 million compared to two years ago — from about $3.083 billion in 2006 to $3.071 billion in 2008. In addition, the percentage of immigrants from Latin America who are sending money home regularly dropped from 70 percent in 2006 to 48 percent in 2008, the survey found.

In Ohio, the total amount of remittances is projected to decrease by about $3 million compared to two years ago — from about $214 million in 2006 to $211 million in 2008. In addition, the percentage of immigrants from Latin America who are sending money home regularly dropped from 71 percent in 2006 to 49 percent in 2008, the survey found.

Bendixen said that a growing "anti-immigrant" sentiment in the United States is a major cause for the drop in number of immigrants sending money back home.

He cited state laws and local ordinances that have cracked down on illegal immigration such as the one in Hazleton, Pa., that he said created a climate of fear in which immigrants have felt insecure about their futures and are therefore more hesitant to send money home.

"They feel that they are not welcome in America anymore," Bendixen said. "They don't know whether they will be able to work next month or whether they will to be able to rent an apartment ... so many become conservative about how they spend their money."

The Hazleton ordinance, which has been challenged in court, would require prospective renters to prove they are in the United States legally and would punish landlords who rent to illegal immigrants. It would also punish businesses that employ them.

States like Pennsylvania and Arizona, where such ordinances have been passed, all saw significant declines in remittances, the survey found.
Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank that supports lower levels of immigration, said that Latin American governments should stop looking at exporting their labor force as a source of development income.

In addition, he said that the survey shows that the anti-illegal immigration ordinances are working.
"The goal of enforcement is to get illegal immigrants to change their behavior," he said. "It's to change the climate so that illegal immigrants get the message that the party is over and they need to go home."

The survey included phone interviews with 5,000 immigrants — both legal and illegal — across the United States, mostly in Spanish, and has a margin of error of 1.4 percent.

It also found:
— Twenty-eight percent of immigrants surveyed said they were thinking of returning to their countries of origin.
— Ten states — California, Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, Georgia, Arizona, North Carolina and Virginia — are projected to send more than $1 billion each in remittances to Latin America this year.
On the Web:
Inter-American Development Bank survey: www.iadb.org/mif/remittances (http://www.iadb.org/mif/remittances)

[Nahum]

Fewer immigrants living in the United States are sending money back to their home countries. A survey by the Inter-American Development Bank shows remittances by Hispanic immigrants are flat. But the percentage of immigrants sending money home to Latin America is down dramatically in just two years. The report cites the U.S. economic slowdown and a tougher line on illegal immigrants.

Maybe we need more of this?

[Esther]

Another myth ... Illegals send most of their money overseas ...

ALSO ... many legal immigrants engage in this family-oriented practice ...

This is talking about Latin America. That is NOT the only country we have immigrants from.

[Rico]

Brother Rico, I do interact with some. But I think that an appropriate question to ask is how many people do you know all over the world who would love to come to America and pursue those same things. Being raised on the mission field, travelling extensively, having a mother who herself went through the naturalization process after years of marriage to my father an Army vet...I can address that with a level of authority. I personally know many people in many countries who long for that American dream. I am even related to some. Some have degrees and careers and are hardworking law-abiders who would be a great asset to any community here.
I stressed law-abiders because that's what they are and due to their respect for our laws as a sovereign nation, they are willing to pursue their dream the legal way. [b]Many will never get here because of the strigent laws and all the things that must go right.[/b

That and the oceans between us and them.

I am all for legal immigration, Brother. However, I am also smart enough to know that it would be too large an undertaking to send these people all home. Any scenario I have thought about or looked at that involves sending them back is, simply put, a logistical nightmare. I think we all agree that this issue of illegal immigration is a huge problem, and I am trying to look at viable solutions that would solve this problem and benefit everyone involved.

[Rico]

F

Maybe we need more of this?

What do you care what someone does with their money, PP? Do you want someone telling you what you can do with yours?

[Esther]

What do you care what someone does with their money, PP? Do you want someone telling you what you can do with yours?

Our economy! People who live here and this is their home keep their money here. That benefits everyone!

[SDG]

This is talking about Latin America. That is NOT the only country we have immigrants from.

Esther, Latin America includes all of the Spanish speaking countries of South America, Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean. I believe that's 19 countries.

The majority of your illegals come from this geographic region ... although there are illegals from Europe, Asia and Africa too.

[Esther]

And just in case your wondering I'm against sending our jobs overseas as well!

[Esther]

Esther, Latin America includes all of the Spanish speaking countries of South America, Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean. I believe that's 19 countries.

The majority of your illegals come from this geographic region ... although there are illegals from Europe, Asia and Africa too.

I understand. But I have heard the Muslins send a lot of their money home as well. I don't know if we have as many illegals of them or not. Seems they get a lot of false identification like a lot of other groups, IF 911 is anything to go by.

[Rico]

One thing that I think needs to be noted. Perhaps we need to revise our legal status requirements.

I think work permits would help out a lot. You get the work permit for one year. As long as you stay out of trouble with the law, the permit gets renewed every year. After so long on this program, you move to the next step in the process, all leading towards becoming a naturalized citizen.

[Rico]

Our economy! People who live here and this is their home keep their money here. That benefits everyone!

Sister, have you noticed how many of our products come from China? Our money doesn't stay here. It goes overseas by the billions.

[SDG]

We ... as a nation are a blessing to the world whether ... it be our gov't, private sector, charities or our citizens... God has blessed this nation ... and we continue to be the world's bread basket.

I don't see how this is a hindrance but rather people taking care of their loved ones ... I'm sure many of us would send money home to our loved ones if we had to legally emigrate somewhere else ... and since PP is sure America is heading southward economically ... he may have to pack his bags soon.

[Esther]

Sister, have you noticed how many of our products come from China? Our money doesn't stay here. It goes overseas by the billions.

Not just China! WE are sending way to much over seas!!!!:reaction

[Nahum]

What do you care what someone does with their money, PP? Do you want someone telling you what you can do with yours?

It is money they are earning illegally. It's the same as stealing.

They are damaging US sovereignty and our economy in a huge way.

I honestly think there is an insidious agenda to make the southwest a new Latino nation. This is being done through some stupid Americans turning a blind eye to the absolute raping of our shared culture.

There are no attempts at assimilation.

There are only screams for accomodation.

[Esther]

I think work permits would help out a lot. You get the work permit for one year. As long as you stay out of trouble with the law, the permit gets renewed every year. After so long on this program, you move to the next step in the process, all leading towards becoming a naturalized citizen.

I agree this has merit.

[SDG]

It is money they are earning illegally. It's the same as stealing.

They are damaging US sovereignty and our economy in a huge way.

I honestly think there is an insidious agenda to make the southwest a new Latino nation. This is being done through stupidly blind Americans turning a blind eye to the absolute raping of our shared culture.

There is no attempts at assimilation.

There are only screams for accomodation.

Stealing money they slave over for ... that's disgusting PP. Working hard labor ... under horrible conditions many times for less pay ... you're a joke.

[Pressing-On]

I think work permits would help out a lot. You get the work permit for one year. As long as you stay out of trouble with the law, the permit gets renewed every year. After so long on this program, you move to the next step in the process, all leading towards becoming a naturalized citizen.

I like this idea. I'll e-mail McCain! :D

[Nahum]

Stealing money they slave over for ... that's disgusting PP. Working hard labor ... under horrible conditions many times for less pay ... you're a joke.

They don't slave.

A slave is someone forced to do work and held against their will.

They come here willingly, and illegally.

Does not compute, pardner.:drama

[SDG]

The bible say he who doesn't work ... will not eat ...

It's xenophobic and ignorant statements like this that keep me out of threads like this ... carry on... His grace is sufficient.

[SDG]

They don't slave.

A slave is someone forced to do work and held against their will.

They come here willingly, and illegally.

Does not compute, pardner.:drama

Slave over is a figure of speech ...when are you going to be intellectually honest?

[Rico]

Here is what the IRS website says about an ITIN.


http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96287,00.html#what