The one assembly/congregation policy

[originalsecretplace]

I have a question and I am being sincere when I ask it (I can visualize some of you rolling your eyes when you read it)...

Assumptions:

1. A person is mature in the Lord and NOT a babe in Christ.
2. The person is not disgruntled with anyone or anything taught


Question:

Why does a person HAVE TO find ONE assembly and stay put? If there were (let's say for the sake of argument) 5 UPC churches in your area, why can't you go to one of those churches each week in a around robin manner? I'm from a district where I know most of the long-timers in every church. We are all Bros and Sis in the Lord and are basically receiving the same doctrinal teachings.

Are there any scriptures to indicate that I shouldn't?

Why are people called "church hoppers", etc if they do visit other areas regularily?

[Ron]

I have a question and I am being sincere when I ask it (I can visualize some of you rolling your eyes when you read it)...

Assumptions:

1. A person is mature in the Lord and NOT a babe in Christ.
2. The person is not disgruntled with anyone or anything taught


Question:

Why does a person HAVE TO find ONE assembly and stay put? If there were (let's say for the sake of argument) 5 UPC churches in your area, why can't you go to one of those churches each week in a around robin manner? I'm from a district where I know most of the long-timers in every church. We are all Bros and Sis in the Lord and are basically receiving the same doctrinal teachings.

Are there any scriptures to indicate that I shouldn't?

Why are people called "church hoppers", etc if they do visit other areas regularily?

Because they will never become stable, never put down roots.
Imagine if one didn't stay at their job, School, vocation?
You would consider them unstable, with no roots, that they would be wavering.

JMHO

[ManOfWord]

I have a question and I am being sincere when I ask it (I can visualize some of you rolling your eyes when you read it)...

Assumptions:

1. A person is mature in the Lord and NOT a babe in Christ.
2. The person is not disgruntled with anyone or anything taught


Question:

Why does a person HAVE TO find ONE assembly and stay put? If there were (let's say for the sake of argument) 5 UPC churches in your area, why can't you go to one of those churches each week in a around robin manner? I'm from a district where I know most of the long-timers in every church. We are all Bros and Sis in the Lord and are basically receiving the same doctrinal teachings.

Are there any scriptures to indicate that I shouldn't?

Why are people called "church hoppers", etc if they do visit other areas regularily?

For the same reason that you don't continually uproot a flower in your garden and move it from place to place. It will not bloom as it should and will not get the nourishment it needs and will not be able to contribute to the overall welfare of the garden. I know this is overly simplistic, but it does serve as a small illustration. Notice I said nothing about someone's salvation.

[OGIA]

For the same reason that you don't continually uproot a flower in your garden and move it from place to place. It will not bloom as it should and will not get the nourishment it needs and will not be able to contribute to the overall welfare of the garden. I know this is overly simplistic, but it does serve as a small illustration. Notice I said nothing about someone's salvation.But, that plant will most likely eventually die from all that moving, don't you think, MOW?

[originalsecretplace]

Because they will never become stable, never put down roots.
Imagine if one didn't stay at their job, School, vocation?
You would consider them unstable, with no roots, that they would be wavering.

JMHO

I would compare that as going from denomination to denomination (vocation to vocation) rather than assembly to assembly seeing that they are being taught the same doctrine and are in touch with the same people in an area albeit a more widespread area than just one building.

We put down roots in the church (even a denomination) rather than a building? we are rooted in Christ and to each other in the spirit?

[originalsecretplace]

For the same reason that you don't continually uproot a flower in your garden and move it from place to place. It will not bloom as it should and will not get the nourishment it needs and will not be able to contribute to the overall welfare of the garden. I know this is overly simplistic, but it does serve as a small illustration. Notice I said nothing about someone's salvation.

So you see the assembly/congregation as the garden?

Is it not a good analogy to look at the local area (church) rather than the buliding as a garden?

[ManOfWord]

But, that plant will most likely eventually die from all that moving, don't you think, MOW?

That was kinda my point. However, if someone is rooted and grouned in Jesus Christ, I guess it is possible to stay alive, saved and go to heaven. However, players, don't move around from team to team, or employees from job to job etc. The principle of moving from one church to another with no commitment, does not make strong saints of God.

[Ron]

I would compare that as going from denomination to denomination (vocation to vocation) rather than assembly to assembly seeing that they are being taught the same doctrine and are in touch with the same people in an area albeit a more widespread area than just one building.

We put down roots in the church (even a denomination) rather than a building? we are rooted in Christ and to each other in the spirit?

True, but the principle is the same.
One who continually moves around is seen as being unstable.
Good Churches are built on the backs of not only good doctrine, good Spirit, good Pastors, but also on the faithfulness of good people.

How could you have SS Classes taught, Bible Studies shared, ministries to happen if there were no faithful saints?

"Mom, how come we can't have SS Class today?"
"Sorry dear, Sis____ felt to try it somewhere else, after all she never stays anywhere more than two months?"

Simplistic, I know. I hope you get the idea though.

God Bless!

Ron:tiphat

[originalsecretplace]

That was kinda my point. However, if someone is rooted and grouned in Jesus Christ, I guess it is possible to stay alive, saved and go to heaven. However, players, don't move around from team to team, or employees from job to job etc. The principle of moving from one church to another with no commitment, does not make strong saints of God.

But again what's the team analagous to? Can it bigger than a congregation?

For example, in Revelation a letter is written to the church at Sardis. How many congregations were there? Did they all go to the same building?

[ManOfWord]

But again what's the team analagous to? Can it bigger than a congregation?

For example, in Revelation a letter is written to the church at Sardis. How many congregations were there? Did they all go to the same building?

It can be bigger than a congregation. But our cities are MUCH larger now than they were then. Different congregations with different visions for reaching different segments of society. Nothing wrong with that as long as they don't start thinking they are better than everyone else.

[Pastor Keith]

But again what's the team analagous to? Can it bigger than a congregation?

For example, in Revelation a letter is written to the church at Sardis. How many congregations were there? Did they all go to the same building?

Well the church in Sardis, was a city wide church that met in house churches throughout that city, elders and five fold ministers circulated among those house churches to minister to the needs and equipped the saints.

But remember the reality those believer were commited to a house church where a spiritually gifted elder pastored them.

[originalsecretplace]

True, but the principle is the same.
One who continually moves around is seen as being unstable.
Good Churches are built on the backs of not only good doctrine, good Spirit, good Pastors, but also on the faithfulness of good people.

How could you have SS Classes taught, Bible Studies shared, ministries to happen if there were no faithful saints?

"Mom, how come we can't have SS Class today?"
"Sorry dear, Sis____ felt to try it somewhere else, after all she never stays anywhere more than two months?"

Simplistic, I know. I hope you get the idea though.

God Bless!

Ron:tiphat

I get your point. And there are good reasons to stay in one place. I believe that. But why do we have to paint all people who move around with the same brush and call them unstable because they want to move around? Really there are only so many positions and not everyone does a specific job.

[originalsecretplace]

Well the church in Sardis, was a city wide church that met in house churches throughout that city, elders and five fold ministers circulated among those house churches to minister to the needs and equipped the saints.

But remember the reality those believer were commited to a house church where a spiritually gifted elder pastored them.

Were they committed to a certain house church or did they meet from house to house?

[Michlow]

I have a question and I am being sincere when I ask it (I can visualize some of you rolling your eyes when you read it)...

Assumptions:

1. A person is mature in the Lord and NOT a babe in Christ.
2. The person is not disgruntled with anyone or anything taught


Question:

Why does a person HAVE TO find ONE assembly and stay put? If there were (let's say for the sake of argument) 5 UPC churches in your area, why can't you go to one of those churches each week in a around robin manner? I'm from a district where I know most of the long-timers in every church. We are all Bros and Sis in the Lord and are basically receiving the same doctrinal teachings.

Are there any scriptures to indicate that I shouldn't?

Why are people called "church hoppers", etc if they do visit other areas regularily?

Because they feel a personal duty to put you into a little box and make you a perfect carbon copy saint and they can't do that if they don't have continual control of you? After all, what will happen if you actually hear something preached contrary to what the Pastor thinks? You might actually have to think for yourself!!!! Oh No! What is to become of us all??? :winkgrin

[Pastor Keith]

Were they committed to a certain house church or did they meet from house to house?

Well Paul in his Apostolic gifting went house to house, but I believe that believer committed to meeting in one or more houses under a local elder.

Acts 20:20- The big vision
Roman 16:5-The local setting
I Cor. 14:26-What they did

[Ron]

I get your point. And there are good reasons to stay in one place. I believe that. But why do we have to paint all people who move around with the same brush and call them unstable because they want to move around? Really there are only so many positions and not everyone does a specific job.

I guess if one is always moving around, it begs a question why?
I see your point that not everyone has a position.

I still say that to be in one place is "better" both for the Church and for ones own personal growth.

[Pastor Keith]

Because they feel a personal duty to put you into a little box and make you a perfect carbon copy saint and they can't do that if they don't have continual control of you? After all, what will happen if you actually hear something preached contrary to what the Pastor thinks? You might actually have to think for yourself!!!! Oh No! What is to become of us all??? :winkgrin

At one time I might have agreed, but it is clear that people need to be commited to a local body (in flesh group of believers) where they can know and be known. The gifts and presence of God flows through his body, if you are connected to a body, there will be no life.

[originalsecretplace]

True, but the principle is the same.
One who continually moves around is seen as being unstable.
Good Churches are built on the backs of not only good doctrine, good Spirit, good Pastors, but also on the faithfulness of good people.

How could you have SS Classes taught, Bible Studies shared, ministries to happen if there were no faithful saints?

"Mom, how come we can't have SS Class today?"
"Sorry dear, Sis____ felt to try it somewhere else, after all she never stays anywhere more than two months?"

Simplistic, I know. I hope you get the idea though.

God Bless!

Ron:tiphat

I hear that term alot "faithfulness". What does that mean? Faithful to whom or what?

[Michlow]

At one time I might have agreed, but it is clear that people need to be commited to a local body (in flesh group of believers) where they can know and be known. The gifts and presence of God flows through his body, if you are connected to a body, there will be no life.

The body is not limited to one congregation, as long as you are around other believers that would be fulfilled. There is nothing that specifies that you must be around the same believers continually.

Honestly, I think it is more about Pastor's fear of losing control. Of course, I will add that I do not believe in the seperation of so called ministry and laity. I think we are all equal believers in the body.

[Michlow]

I hear that term alot "faithfulness". What does that mean? Faithful to whom or what?

That's the problem...though they say "faithful to the house of God" that seems to translate, as "we do not want to share your tithes"

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Why does a man have to be faithful to one wife-

After all the church is the bride of Christ.

If you have sheep eating grass on another mans property, you will never know what anedote to give to negate the poison they received.

[originalsecretplace]

At one time I might have agreed, but it is clear that people need to be commited to a local body (in flesh group of believers) where they can know and be known. The gifts and presence of God flows through his body, if you are connected to a body, there will be no life.

I believe that too. But how big is the group? What is the "local body"?

What does being "connected to the body" mean? Does it have to be the same people every week?

[originalsecretplace]

Why does a man have to be faithful to one wife-

After all the church is the bride of Christ.

If you have sheep eating grass on another mans property, you will never know what anedote to give to negate the poison they received.

How is going to another building in the same denomination (who is part of the body/bride of Christ) eating grass on another man's property? Who's the man?

[Ron]

I hear that term alot "faithfulness". What does that mean? Faithful to whom or what?

Okay, put it this way.
Say you go to your Church and sing worship choruses and take up and offering.
It comes time for the preaching but there is no Pastor or Preacher for the service.

Now we expect Faithfulness in leadership, why not in saints?

Faithfulness is first to God, then to the Church (his body), then of course to the lost who we are all called to Minister unto.

[originalsecretplace]

Well Paul in his Apostolic gifting went house to house, but I believe that believer committed to meeting in one or more houses under a local elder.

Acts 20:20- The big vision
Roman 16:5-The local setting
I Cor. 14:26-What they did

Thanks. I'll read those scriptures.

[Pastor Keith]

I believe that too. But how big is the group? What is the "local body"?

What does being "connected to the body" mean? Does it have to be the same people every week?

I think that you can surmise from scripture that the same people met together in local settings, Paul greeted specific people in certain locals, the only people that moved from city to city or church group to church group were those gift ministries whose ministries were more trans local than localized.

Just curious, why would you not want to be meet and contribute your gifting to a local body?

[Ron]

I think that you can surmise from scripture that the same people met together in local settings, Paul greeted specific people in certain locals, the only people that moved from city to city or church group to church group were those gift ministries whose ministries were more trans local than localized.

Just curious, why would you not want to be meet and contribute your gifting to a local body?

I don't think she feels that way, she is just provoking us to thought-I think.:winkgrin

[originalsecretplace]

I guess if one is always moving around, it begs a question why?
I see your point that not everyone has a position.

I still say that to be in one place is "better" both for the Church and for ones own personal growth.

I agree to a point. I think people who are still "babes in Christ" should be taught and mentored in one place. Analogy might be someone who goes through elementary, middle school, high school, college and then off into the world to make their own way. We all keep learning but we don't need the same level of "tending" through these stages.

The saints are called to minister. Can they be called to minister from place to place rather than stay in one place without being a "minister" part of 5 fold ministry?

[originalsecretplace]

I think that you can surmise from scripture that the same people met together in local settings, Paul greeted specific people in certain locals, the only people that moved from city to city or church group to church group were those gift ministries whose ministries were more trans local than localized.

Just curious, why would you not want to be meet and contribute your gifting to a local body?

I do want to meet and contribute to the local body. I'm just asking "what the local body" is and why do we think that way?

I also think my giftings are to be shared everyday to people inside and outside the church body i.e. my neighbours, co-workers.

[Pastor Keith]

The body is not limited to one congregation, as long as you are around other believers that would be fulfilled. There is nothing that specifies that you must be around the same believers continually.

Honestly, I think it is more about Pastor's fear of losing control. Of course, I will add that I do not believe in the seperation of so called ministry and laity. I think we are all equal believers in the body.

No arguement here, I don't believe in that seperation either, but the scripture does say that there are various rankings based on gifts though.

[originalsecretplace]

I don't think she feels that way, she is just provoking us to thought-I think.:winkgrin

Correct-a-mundo!!

[Ron]

I agree to a point. I think people who are still "babes in Christ" should be taught and mentored in one place. Analogy might be someone who goes through elementary, middle school, high school, college and then off into the world to make their own way. We all keep learning but we don't need the same level of "tending" through these stages.

The saints are called to minister. Can they be called to minister from place to place rather than stay in one place without being a "minister" part of 5 fold ministry?

I don't think so, I say that because of this, "who will they be accountable too?"

The ones I have seen "usually" have made shipwreck of both themselves, and the faith they bear!

[Ron]

Correct-a-mundo!!

Is that like "TELA-MUNDOOO?":D

[Ferd]

Because they feel a personal duty to put you into a little box and make you a perfect carbon copy saint and they can't do that if they don't have continual control of you? After all, what will happen if you actually hear something preached contrary to what the Pastor thinks? You might actually have to think for yourself!!!! Oh No! What is to become of us all??? :winkgrin

oh my.

[Bryan]

Games Pentecostals play:

hopping around like that... that's like playin checkers.. lol.. anyway.. why jump around? unless you are an evangelist.. I see no reason why someone should jump around so frequently...

[originalsecretplace]

Okay, put it this way.
Say you go to your Church and sing worship choruses and take up and offering.
It comes time for the preaching but there is no Pastor or Preacher for the service.

Now we expect Faithfulness in leadership, why not in saints?

Faithfulness is first to God, then to the Church (his body), then of course to the lost who we are all called to Minister unto.


In Paul's example in Corithians there are a few that speak (prophecy). Is there only one preacher in a local body? Does it have to be a preacher to prophecy?

Romans 14:

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Cr 14:27 If any man speak in an tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.
1Cr 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Cr 14:29 [U]Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Cr 14:30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Cr 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[Bryan]

Because they feel a personal duty to put you into a little box and make you a perfect carbon copy saint and they can't do that if they don't have continual control of you? After all, what will happen if you actually hear something preached contrary to what the Pastor thinks? You might actually have to think for yourself!!!! Oh No! What is to become of us all??? :winkgrin

:eek:

[Ferd]

I believe that too. But how big is the group? What is the "local body"?

What does being "connected to the body" mean? Does it have to be the same people every week?


the only real answer here is that to be connected, you have to have a connection. you cannot be connected if you see someone once every 5 weeks. period.

[originalsecretplace]

I don't think so, I say that because of this, "who will they be accountable too?"

The ones I have seen "usually" have made shipwreck of both themselves, and the faith they bear!

Who are the 5-fold ministry accountable to? Can the saint be accountable to someone in the 5-fold ministry without being in th same place as the minister?

[originalsecretplace]

the only real answer here is that to be connected, you have to have a connection. you cannot be connected if you see someone once every 5 weeks. period.

So you have to see them once a week? or twice a week? or how many times a week to be connected?

[Ron]

In Paul's example in Corithians there are a few that speak (prophecy). Is there only one preacher in a local body? Does it have to be a preacher to prophecy?

Romans 14:

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Cr 14:27 If any man speak in an tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.
1Cr 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Cr 14:29 [U]Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Cr 14:30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Cr 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Well we are starting to compare Apples & Oranges.

[Ron]

Who are the 5-fold ministry accountable to? Can the saint be accountable to someone in the 5-fold ministry without being in th same place as the minister?

They should be accountable to other Elders/Ministers/Presbyters/DB.
They are accountable to their local Congregation, and ultimately to God.

[Ferd]

I have a question and I am being sincere when I ask it (I can visualize some of you rolling your eyes when you read it)...

Assumptions:

1. A person is mature in the Lord and NOT a babe in Christ.
2. The person is not disgruntled with anyone or anything taught


Question:

Why does a person HAVE TO find ONE assembly and stay put? If there were (let's say for the sake of argument) 5 UPC churches in your area, why can't you go to one of those churches each week in a around robin manner? I'm from a district where I know most of the long-timers in every church. We are all Bros and Sis in the Lord and are basically receiving the same doctrinal teachings.

Are there any scriptures to indicate that I shouldn't?

Why are people called "church hoppers", etc if they do visit other areas regularily?

working within the confines of your quesiton.

Lets say there is a person that is a spiritual grown up. That loves the lord and is not disgruntled or a problem maker.

Lets say they have a rotation of 5 churchs they go to.

they show up at each church in rotation every 5th sunday. Lets also say that these 5 churches are very close to each other in every aspect of teaching. But lets make it more interesting and toss out the notion that this is a UPCI or even an Apostolic church. Lets say these churches are some unnamed generic "christian"church.

Can this person be connected to all of these people? can they created real relationships that will sustain them in times of trial (which we all go thru)?
The answer here is no.
Frist because, the people they see at these 5 churches have a common culture that is an extention of their fellowship. These folk eat out with one another, their kids go to sunday school together, play baseball together. these people work at the church together, visit the sick, and in general these people are in the circle of friendship with one another. But here you have someone that is there/available every 5 weeks.

They just will not be a part of the culture of any of the 5 churches. period. we (all humanity) need more connection than that.

[originalsecretplace]

They should be accountable to other Elders/Ministers/Presbyters/DB.
They are accountable to their local Congregation, and ultimately to God.

I believe we are very much accountable to everyone as saints of God. But again can;t you be accountable with being there every week?

[Ferd]

You have to see that "not forsaking the assymbling yourselves together" as more than showing up to hear someone preach.

The point here is we need human connection. period. we need friendships and relationships.

Ever see a good kid start hanging with a bad crowd? that kid will go bad.
Ever see a bad kid start hanging with a good crowd? that kid will go good.

Why? because that is how we are geared. somone with no roots will blow away.

[originalsecretplace]

working within the confines of your quesiton.

Lets say there is a person that is a spiritual grown up. That loves the lord and is not disgruntled or a problem maker.

Lets say they have a rotation of 5 churchs they go to.

they show up at each church in rotation every 5th sunday. Lets also say that these 5 churches are very close to each other in every aspect of teaching. But lets make it more interesting and toss out the notion that this is a UPCI or even an Apostolic church. Lets say these churches are some unnamed generic "christian"church.

Can this person be connected to all of these people? can they created real relationships that will sustain them in times of trial (which we all go thru)?
The answer here is no.
Frist because, the people they see at these 5 churches have a common culture that is an extention of their fellowship. These folk eat out with one another, their kids go to sunday school together, play baseball together. these people work at the church together, visit the sick, and in general these people are in the circle of friendship with one another. But here you have someone that is there/available every 5 weeks.

They just will not be a part of the culture of any of the 5 churches. period. we (all humanity) need more connection than that.


What if the churches had 1000 people in them. You can't be that closely connected to all 1000 in one place. I can be closely connected to 5 in each church.

I have to say though that I'm not sure the argument of cultural connection by congregation is true. For instance, where I live I live down the road from a pastor of another UPC congregation and I have neighbours beside me from my own congregation and neighbours on the other side from another UPC congregation. I see my neighbours more than most of the people in my own congregation because they live in close proximity to me.

I moved from one area to where I am now and still have deep ties with that other area. There are no cultural differences. My kids and their kids grew up together and visited each other often. When you been in a denomination as small as the UPC is in our district everyone is deeply connected if you've been around any length of time. We joke aroung that we have to find spouses from the US for our children to expand the gene pool. :toofunny

[RevDWW]

My question would be how will this going from church to church effect your having spiritual offspring and how will it effect those babes in Christ?

[Ferd]

What if the churches had 1000 people in them. You can't be that closely connected to all 1000 in one place. I can be closely connected to 5 in each church.

I have to say though that I'm not sure the argument of cultural connection by congregation is true. For instance, where I live I live down the road from a pastor of another UPC congregation and I have neighbours beside me from my own congregation and neighbours on the other side from another UPC congregation. I see my neighbours more than most of the people in my own congregation because they live in close proximity to me.

I moved from one area to where I am now and still have deep ties with that other area. There are no cultural differences. My kids and their kids grew up together and visited each other often. When you been in a denomination as small as the UPC is in our district everyone is deeply connected if you've been around any length of time. We joke aroung that we have to find spouses from the US for our children to expand the gene pool. :toofunny


are there good solid mature christians that are not productive? can one be a productive christian without having roots?

[originalsecretplace]

My question would be how will this going from church to church effect your having spiritual offspring and how will it effect those babes in Christ?

Ahhhh.... excellent question. So it's not only just for one's own benefit but anothers who may need your mentorship.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

How is going to another building in the same denomination (who is part of the body/bride of Christ) eating grass on another man's property? Who's the man?

Look at the various doctrines/beliefs espoused here. :ignore

Some churches teach weird doctrine and then when people wig out it is very difficult to debug what caused the change and how to then help them to put their ship back on course.

I have seen lack of accountability second cousin decendants of Latter Rain and it was nothing short of chaos.

:aaa

[Ron]

Reminds me of that song....ring around the Rosie, a pocket full of posies....:D

[RevDWW]

Ahhhh.... excellent question. So it's not only just for one's own benefit but anothers who may need your mentorship.

When we mature in Christ it needs to become less about self and more about others. JMHO.

My wife and I love our three children. We have and will continue to sacrifice our wishes and wants to take care of them. Same thing needs to be happening in the spiritual realm.

[originalsecretplace]

are there good solid mature christians that are not productive? can one be a productive christian without having roots?

Roots in what? Define your roots, sir. :)

I was born and raised in Canada so I have roots in Canada. I was raised in a certain province so I have roots in that province. I have lived most of my life in one area, moved to another and have roots in both areas.

I'm not intentionally being dense... :)

What are the roots? Are they in scripture?

[tbpew]

You have to see that "not forsaking the assymbling yourselves together" as more than showing up to hear someone preach.

The point here is we need human connection. period. we need friendships and relationships.

Ever see a good kid start hanging with a bad crowd? that kid will go bad.
Ever see a bad kid start hanging with a good crowd? that kid will go good.

Why? because that is how we are geared. somone with no roots will blow away.

Threads like this really do scare me (sorry I guess I frighten easy:nah ).

Our word choices really do identify where our confidence is established. If our "rooting and grounding" is established in some local congregation founded by a guy who fellowships with a member-minister group, we are vulnerable to anything that may be common to men.

If on the otherhand Christ dwells in our hearts by faith; then we are able to be rooted and grounded in love.

So, like everything else in God, we will answer to him [our master] for where we ground our lives and extend our life-giving root system. Assembling within the fellowship of believers is a God-ordained gift, a wonderful blessing where our connections[joints] can be portals for supply and receipt.

I want to develop and foster as many of these connections as God has out there for me; each joint supplying between member to member, within his own body.

My rooting and grounding is NOT established within the frameword of a human congregation. We fellowship within the Spirit of his Christ, not the spirit of a man-sponsored club/association.

Whether implied, or overtly reguired, any expected fidelity to some local congregation will directly limit the life-giving number of connections(joints) that God can supply the members of his own body, his own house, his own handiwork.

[RevDWW]

Roots in what? Define your roots, sir. :)

I was born and raised in Canada so I have roots in Canada. I was raised in a certain province so I have roots in that province. I have lived most of my life in one area, moved to another and have roots in both areas.

I'm not intentionally being dense... :)

What are the roots? Are they in scripture?

My root had better be Jesus anything else and I'm attached to the wrong plant! :doh

If Jesus is the root then Love will be the fruit!

[originalsecretplace]

Threads like this really do scare me (sorry I guess I frighten easy:nah ).

Our word choices really do identify where our confidence is established. If our "rooting and grounding" is established in some local congregation founded by a guy who fellowships with a member-minister group, we are vulnerable to anything that may be common to men.

If on the otherhand Christ dwells in our hearts by faith; then we are able to be rooted and grounded in love.

So, like everything else in God, we will answer to him [our master] for where we ground our lives and extend our life-giving root system. Assembling within the fellowship of believers is a God-ordained gift, a wonderful blessing where our connections[joints] can be sources of supply and receipt.

I want to develop and foster as many of these connections as God has out there for me; each joint supplying between member to member, within his own body.

My rooting and grounding is NOT established within the frameword of a human congregation. We fellowship within the Spirit of his Christ, not the spirit of a man-sponsored club/association.

Whether implied, or overtly reguired, any expected fidelity to some local congregation will directly limit the life-giving number of connections(joints) that God can supply the members of his own body, his own house, his own handiwork.

So, where does the expected fidelity to a congregation come from? Is it learned by ministers through experience or teachings handed down in a denomination?

I want to heed the counsel of good men but I don't see it as a command of God to saty in one place.

Paul gave his counsel and made the distiction between a command of God and his own advice as in the question of marrying.

Can I really die spiritually from this by contraveneing a command of God or is it a place to be careful and not rush in making sure that I'm not hurting anyone by doing so?

Or am I "limiting the life-giving number of connections(joints) that God can supply the members of his own body, his own house, his own handiwork" by heeding the advice?

[Michlow]

oh my.

:eek:

Didn't you hear? I am the new poster child for disgrunted Christians. Coop better watch out!

:tiphat

[Felicity]

Pastors are generally leery of people who have a history of moving around. It's usually an indication of spiritual immaturity or a history of not being able to accept pastoral leadership.

[Sarah]

My goodness! I thought you were just joking when I initially read this. Are you seriously talking about being the member of four of five churches at once??

As a 'mature' christian, I thought you would know that a pastor has every right to expect commitment from his members. It would be impossible to commit, hopping around from church to church. Might be fun for you, but you don't add anything of value to a body of believers. Somebody has to be faithful with their presence, finances, etc, or else the place would close down.

[Michlow]

My goodness! I thought you were just joking when I initially read this. Are you seriously talking about being the member of four of five churches at once??

As a 'mature' christian, I thought you would know that a pastor has every right to expect commitment from his members. It would be impossible to commit, hopping around from church to church. Might be fun for you, but you don't add anything of value to a body of believers. Somebody has to be faithful with their presence, finances, etc, or else the place would close down.

That might not be a bad thing. I think there are a lot more people that are serving church than there are who are serving God.

[Digging4Truth]

Pastors are generally leery of people who have a history of moving around. It's usually an indication of spiritual immaturity or a history of not being able to accept pastoral leadership.

Or is at least deemed as such.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

My goodness! I thought you were just joking when I initially read this. Are you seriously talking about being the member of four of five churches at once??

As a 'mature' christian, I thought you would know that a pastor has every right to expect commitment from his members. It would be impossible to commit, hopping around from church to church. Might be fun for you, but you don't add anything of value to a body of believers. Somebody has to be faithful with their presence, finances, etc, or else the place would close down.

Feather Pillow Tickled-Ear Fellowship of the Wishy-Washy.

:ignore

[Steve Epley]

I have a question and I am being sincere when I ask it (I can visualize some of you rolling your eyes when you read it)...

Assumptions:

1. A person is mature in the Lord and NOT a babe in Christ.
2. The person is not disgruntled with anyone or anything taught


Question:

Why does a person HAVE TO find ONE assembly and stay put? If there were (let's say for the sake of argument) 5 UPC churches in your area, why can't you go to one of those churches each week in a around robin manner? I'm from a district where I know most of the long-timers in every church. We are all Bros and Sis in the Lord and are basically receiving the same doctrinal teachings.

Are there any scriptures to indicate that I shouldn't?

Why are people called "church hoppers", etc if they do visit other areas regularily?

Several reasons:
1. If everyone was like a roaming Pentecostal in question where would they go since everyone would be roaming and no place to roam to.
2. Everyone needs a pastor to know the estate of their souls-to visit them in sickness-marry their young-and bury them.
3. A saint needs stability in their spiritual lives instead of being a gypsie.
4. A family needs a home church to plant their roots.
5. Look at folks who jump from job to job the instability of their lives.
6. It is Biblical.:tiphat

[Digging4Truth]

Several reasons:
1. If everyone was like a roaming Pentecostal in question where would they go since everyone would be roaming and no place to roam to.
2. Everyone needs a pastor to know the estate of their souls-to visit them in sickness-marry their young-and bury them.
3. A saint needs stability in their spiritual lives instead of being a gypsie.
4. A family needs a home church to plant their roots.
5. Look at folks who jump from job to job the instability of their lives.
6. It is Biblical.:tiphat

Cool... are the scriptures to follow in your next post?

[Heathen]

Why does everyone need to be the same or be labeled immature and unstable? Some people thrive under a consistent, structured environment. Others wither.

[tbpew]

Several reasons:
1. If everyone was like a roaming Pentecostal in question where would they go since everyone would be roaming and no place to roam to.
Those folks would be a lot like their Lord and Master. Foxes have dens but the son of man has no place.....

2. Everyone needs a pastor to know the estate of their souls-to visit them in sickness-marry their young-and bury them.
Please expand on:
a. how a pastor knows the ESTATE of my soul!
b. What is the estate of any man's soul.

3. A saint needs stability in their spiritual lives instead of being a gypsie.

4. A family needs a home church to plant their roots.
Roots are a direct representation of
a. permenance
b. life-source anchors
Is this what God intended for his own body? The source would be the local fellowship/assembly? Steve, is the local pastor God's ordained representative of our Lord Jesus Christ?

5. Look at folks who jump from job to job the instability of their lives.
If the Kingdom of God was about a buildings I would AMEN No.5, but the Kingdom of God is about a BODY.

6. It is Biblical.:tiphat
....and Hebrews 9 is in the bible!

[Bryan]

Reminds me of that song....ring around the Rosie, a pocket full of posies....:D
EWWW


A popular interpretation[3] alleges that the rhyme is connected with the Great Plague of London in 1665, or perhaps earlier outbreaks of bubonic plague in England.[4] All available evidence and research suggests Ring a Ring O'Roses was not linked to the plague until the 20th century.[5] Regardless, this interpretation has entered into popular culture and is often used to reference the plague obliquely.[6]

This purported plague link seems to originate with the movement for finding origins of folk-songs, which was popular in the early 20th century.[7] For example, according to the common forms of the plague interpretation, the 'falling down' has always involved dropping to the ground as the rhyme is recited, evoking the death from the plague. This conjecture has evolved into a complex explanation suggesting possible plague interpretations for every line. For other attempts to attribute 'hidden meaning' to other such rhymes see Sing a Song of Sixpence, Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary, and Cock Robin.

According to this interpretation, the first line evokes the round red rash that would break out on the skin of plague victims. The second line's "pocket full of posies" would have been a pocket in the garment of a victim filled with something fragrant, such as flowers that aimed to conceal the smell from the sores and the dying people. A second creative explanation for this line is that it referred to the purported belief that fresh-smelling flowers, nosegays, and pomanders would purify the air around them thus warding off disease, or that they would invoke sneezing, the idea being that sneezing helps to prevent contraction of the disease. A third possibility includes the idea that "posies" are derived from an Old English word for pus, in which case the pocket would be referring to the swelling sore. "Ashes, ashes" would refer to when people alive and dead were gathered up into piles and lit on fire in a belief that burning the diseased bodies would not allow the disease to spread. Several alternate endings to the song exist, one being: "atishoo, atishoo, we all fall down," interpreted as invoking the sneezing before "we all fall down," the eventual succumbing to death.

European and 19th century versions of the rhyme suggest that this 'fall' was not a literal falling down, but a curtsy or other form of bending movement that was common in other dramatic singing games.[8] Moreover, due to the wide variety of versions sharing the same dance and the same tune, the Opies and many scholars since conclude that the tune and the dance-game form the core of 'Ring a Ring O'Roses', rather than the words which are popular today. Before 1898 there appeared to be no English-language standardisation of the words, and Lady Gomme[9] collected 12 versions of the game, only one of which is similar to the ones that are conjecturally linked to the plague.

The plague interpretation is generally considered to be a recent innovation.[10] It is first cited in 1951 by Peter and Iona Opie.[11] It thus forms an important reference for 20th and 21st century culture, but has never been authentically linked to any early version of the rhyme. In this sense, the origin of the Ring a Ring O'Roses is likely to be unrelated to the plague.

[originalsecretplace]

My goodness! I thought you were just joking when I initially read this. Are you seriously talking about being the member of four of five churches at once??

As a 'mature' christian, I thought you would know that a pastor has every right to expect commitment from his members. It would be impossible to commit, hopping around from church to church. Might be fun for you, but you don't add anything of value to a body of believers. Somebody has to be faithful with their presence, finances, etc, or else the place would close down.

Sometimes you have to look at the way things are and what's being done and look at the reasons for the way things are and the way things are done.

I find a problem with people making assumptions that the way things are the way they are supposed to be and NOT questioning and understanding why they do what they do.

Are you making assumptions? Are you basing your reaction on what you've been taught? Were you taught it from scripture? Have you studied scripture in this area?

[originalsecretplace]

Just wanted to say thanks you guys for ALL your posts. I appreciate every one of them and am reading them all although I haven't posted responses to all of them.

I'm glad that not everyone agrees and there are repsonses from all sides of the matter.

[Ferd]

Didn't you hear? I am the new poster child for disgrunted Christians. Coop better watch out!

:tiphat

clearly. looks like the root of bitterness has found a home.

[Michlow]

clearly. looks like the root of bitterness has found a home.

Bitter can't be all bad. :igotit Weren't bitter herbs part of the passover dinner?

[mizpeh]

Just wanted to say thanks you guys for ALL your posts. I appreciate every one of them and am reading them all although I haven't posted responses to all of them.

I'm glad that not everyone agrees and there are repsonses from all sides of the matter.

Thanks for posting this question.

I've never had the luxury of having 5 apostolic churches to choose from in one area. I know I would seek God for his will.

But after thinking whether there is a clear answer to your question, I'm not so sure I know. So I started looking in the book of Acts at the church in Jerusalem. I'm going to study this out for Biblical precedent and not just what I think is right. Personally I feel a person should stay in one place, but is that scriptural?

There is one scripture that I've gotten to so far in Acts 4 when Peter and John were released from the council, the Bible says they went to their own company...... I'm not sure if this was a neighborhood assembly or the entire Jerusalem church.

Do you think the early churches were kind of organized like synagogues?

[Ferd]

LOL!

I said the following

Why? because that is how we are geared. somone with no roots will blow away.

It seems like this touched off a mini-firestorm. looks like folk see any mention of the word "root" gets touchy for some folk.

well, I hate to disappoint. I wasnt even talking about the church. I was talking about the nature of mankind. without some kind of roots we all blow away.

thus it does translate. a person unwilling to plant themselves in some church will follow suit. they will eventually dry up and blow away spiritually.

[Chan]

For the same reason that you don't continually uproot a flower in your garden and move it from place to place. It will not bloom as it should and will not get the nourishment it needs and will not be able to contribute to the overall welfare of the garden. I know this is overly simplistic, but it does serve as a small illustration. Notice I said nothing about someone's salvation.
Sort of like the old bumper sticker: bloom where you are planted?

[Michlow]

Sort of like the old bumper sticker: bloom where you are planted?

But I am not a flower.

Besides, my therapist told me that trying out several different congregations would be helpful for me.

[Digging4Truth]

Bitter can't be all bad. :igotit Weren't bitter herbs part of the passover dinner?

The roots will eventually find a home when the seeds are so freely thrown. :)

:)

I thought you might enjoy that... :)

[originalsecretplace]

LOL!

I said the following

Why? because that is how we are geared. somone with no roots will blow away.

It seems like this touched off a mini-firestorm. looks like folk see any mention of the word "root" gets touchy for some folk.

well, I hate to disappoint. I wasnt even talking about the church. I was talking about the nature of mankind. without some kind of roots we all blow away.

thus it does translate. a person unwilling to plant themselves in some church will follow suit. they will eventually dry up and blow away spiritually.

Well in nature a person is not rooted by their feet to the ground like a plant or flower but by emotional/blood ties to family and friends.

I agree that a person with no relationship ties will not be a very heathy individual.

Biblically we are members of Christ and of one another that is where our roots lay no question and they are spiritual roots. But the question is how does that play out in concrete terms? Part of that is fellowship with each other and fellowship with Christ. We don't seem to have a problem with knowing what fellowship with Christ and being connected to Christ means. But there seems to be a differing of opinion on what fellowship with other members of the body is and how we handle that aspect of our lives.

Really, it seems that scripture talks about people meeting daily and eating with each other in fellowship and worshipping together. We are given examples of the whens, wheres, and hows to some extent but there are areas that seem to be a little more vague.

Physically, I can only be in one place at one time. Spiritually I look at myself as being connected to many. Why can't I physically be connected to many as well and what physical boundaries are there to my connections to others in Christ -- distance, culture? Can I go and worship God with different saints at different times? Does that make me rootless?

Is it a "one size fits all" answer?

[originalsecretplace]

Thanks for posting this question.

I've never had the luxury of having 5 apostolic churches to choose from in one area. I know I would seek God for his will.

But after thinking whether there is a clear answer to your question, I'm not so sure I know. So I started looking in the book of Acts at the church in Jerusalem. I'm going to study this out for Biblical precedent and not just what I think is right. Personally I feel a person should stay in one place, but is that scriptural?

There is one scripture that I've gotten to so far in Acts 4 when Peter and John were released from the council, the Bible says they went to their own company...... I'm not sure if this was a neighborhood assembly or the entire Jerusalem church.

Do you think the early churches were kind of organized like synagogues?

How were synagogues organized? I look forward to reading your thoughts about this.

[Sarah]

Well in nature a person is not rooted by their feet to the ground like a plant or flower but by emotional/blood ties to family and friends.

I agree that a person with no relationship ties will not be a very heathy individual.

Biblically we are members of Christ and of one another that is where our roots lay no question and they are spiritual roots. But the question is how does that play out in concrete terms? Part of that is fellowship with each other and fellowship with Christ. We don't seem to have a problem with knowing what fellowship with Christ and being connected to Christ means. But there seems to be a differing of opinion on what fellowship with other members of the body is and how we handle that aspect of our lives.

Really, it seems that scripture talks about people meeting daily and eating with each other in fellowship and worshipping together. We are given examples of the whens, wheres, and hows to some extent but there are areas that seem to be a little more vague.

Physically, I can only be in one place at one time. Spiritually I look at myself as being connected to many. Why can't I physically be connected to many as well and what physical boundaries are there to my connections to others in Christ -- distance, culture? Can I go and worship God with different saints at different times? Does that make me rootless?



I don't mean to sound unkind, but yes, I think to weekly go from one church to another makes one rather rootless. I know a lot of people who visit other churches on their off nights, just because they do love to be with other saints from the surrounding area.....which is fine, if they have the time. But I think we owe one 'body' our complete support. The pastor has a right to expect our faithfulness.

[Felicity]

Paul made reference to the fact that it's hard to build on another man's foundation. I would think if someone drifts around from church to church - each one pastored by a man with different emphases and teachings - they're possibly going to have a rather weak foundation.

And/or the fact that they're moving around aimlessly could be indicative of a weak foundation.

There are situations where people move from one church to another for good reason.

[Warmbee]

I have a question and I am being sincere when I ask it (I can visualize some of you rolling your eyes when you read it)...

Assumptions:

1. A person is mature in the Lord and NOT a babe in Christ.
2. The person is not disgruntled with anyone or anything taught


Question:

Why does a person HAVE TO find ONE assembly and stay put? If there were (let's say for the sake of argument) 5 UPC churches in your area, why can't you go to one of those churches each week in a around robin manner? I'm from a district where I know most of the long-timers in every church. We are all Bros and Sis in the Lord and are basically receiving the same doctrinal teachings.

Are there any scriptures to indicate that I shouldn't?

Why are people called "church hoppers", etc if they do visit other areas regularily?

Hope I word this well.... My take on it is that you have your leadership, they are there to watch over and guide you, it is more about them being able to be a good shepard to you then to you visiting other churches, I think it's totally cool to visit on off nights... we do it all the time, but if we were to 'rotate' our church attendance then our pastor wouldn't be able to watch us as well... to see if we are praying, fasting, worshipping, being faithful.... JMO:tiphat

[Steve Epley]

Thanks for posting this question.

I've never had the luxury of having 5 apostolic churches to choose from in one area. I know I would seek God for his will.

But after thinking whether there is a clear answer to your question, I'm not so sure I know. So I started looking in the book of Acts at the church in Jerusalem. I'm going to study this out for Biblical precedent and not just what I think is right. Personally I feel a person should stay in one place, but is that scriptural?

There is one scripture that I've gotten to so far in Acts 4 when Peter and John were released from the council, the Bible says they went to their own company...... I'm not sure if this was a neighborhood assembly or the entire Jerusalem church.

Do you think the early churches were kind of organized like synagogues?


Also "your assembly" James 2:2 among the many others.

[COOPER]

That might not be a bad thing. I think there are a lot more people that are serving church than there are who are serving God.

Oh this is a very true statement.

It's extremely difficult for saints and Ministers to follow and serve Jesus, when they are so loyal to an Org, and a Pastor.

This is so mad.

Come on folks!
.................................................. ......... God is God.
Not any Church,
pastor or Origination's contract.

[originalsecretplace]

Paul made reference to the fact that it's hard to build on another man's foundation. I would think if someone drifts around from church to church - each one pastored by a man with different emphases and teachings - they're possibly going to have a rather weak foundation.

And/or the fact that they're moving around aimlessly could be indicative of a weak foundation.

There are situations where people move from one church to another for good reason.


I'm not speaking of aomeone moving around aimlessly. Can you move around without being aimless?

That goes back to a point made earlier that our foundation/roots are in Christ.
From what I understand Paul was speaking of laying the foundation of Jesus. He didn't want to preach Jesus where someone else had already preached Jesus. Are we extrapolating this idea to say that a) you are built on a foundation of a man which is an assembly? b) that the foundations are only assembly size (not city size or country size) even within the same denomination? c) that eventhough you are on the same foundation as other assemblies if you move around you become rootless? d) that assemblies are built on a foundation whereas a person is not i.e. is Paul speaking here of a person being built on a foundation of Christ or an assembly?

Paul talks about building on that foundation in 1Cor. We are God's husbandry and building. That sounds more like a staement of unity rather than a statment of being built on different foundations according to what assembly you are attending.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cr 3:5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[Ferd]

That might not be a bad thing. I think there are a lot more people that are serving church than there are who are serving God.

Oh this is a very true statement.

It's extremely difficult for saints and Ministers to follow and serve Jesus, when they are so loyal to an Org, and a Pastor.

This is so mad.

Come on folks!
.................................................. ......... God is God.
Not any Church,
pastor or Origination's contract.

And there are even more people out there serving their flesh while claiming to take a stand against "organizaiton".

[Ferd]

I'm not speaking of aomeone moving around aimlessly. Can you move around without being aimless?


yes, we call them evangelists.

[originalsecretplace]

Also "your assembly" James 2:2 among the many others.

Was James writing to the Jewish Christians who still went to the synagogues? So was James indicating the traditional Jewish "assemblies"?

Did the Gentiles assemble in the synagogues? How does that realte to assemblies today?

[Ferd]

OSP, I am sure that a person can do what you have proposed. i dont think one has to attend one single church and maintain a relationship with God.

as I pointed out, evangelists and their families do this.

But we are called to be more than saints. Jesus compared the christian to a vine or a tree. He pointed out more than once we are to bare friut.

Now It may be possible to be fruitful and move weekly from church to church, but my paradigm has great difficulty in seeing how one goes about being fruitfull while at the same time not being commited to a church. (by church I mean any group of believers from big churches to a house church structure)

Now, part of the problem my very well be my paradigm. but clearly since you are the one proposing such a divergence of thought, it is incumbent on you to explain how one goes about being an effective, fruitfull saint, while doing what you propose....

in light of the fact that your actions will be seen as shiftless, and ungrounded.

[originalsecretplace]

yes, we call them evangelists.

That's all?

Is someone an Evangelist because they move around or do they move around because they are an evangelist? :)

Is Philip the evangelist the same Philip who was elected to serve tables?

[Neck]

Because they will never become stable, never put down roots.
Imagine if one didn't stay at their job, School, vocation?
You would consider them unstable, with no roots, that they would be wavering.

JMHO


It has nothing to do with stability and everything to do with money...

[Scott Hutchinson]

The probelm with folks going to different churches is that who is responible for them.It's not fair to Pastors because they are unsure if they are responsible for church hoppers.When probelms arise and counseling needs to be done, are Pastors responsible to counsel church hoppers.
Also people that don't settle in a home church are held accountable to whom?
And where does their financial support go?

[originalsecretplace]

OSP, I am sure that a person can do what you have proposed. i dont think one has to attend one single church and maintain a relationship with God.

as I pointed out, evangelists and their families do this.

But we are called to be more than saints. Jesus compared the christian to a vine or a tree. He pointed out more than once we are to bare friut.

Now It may be possible to be fruitful and move weekly from church to church, but my paradigm has great difficulty in seeing how one goes about being fruitfull while at the same time not being commited to a church. (by church I mean any group of believers from big churches to a house church structure)

Now, part of the problem my very well be my paradigm. but clearly since you are the one proposing such a divergence of thought, it is incumbent on you to explain how one goes about being an effective, fruitfull saint, while doing what you propose....

in light of the fact that your actions will be seen as shiftless, and ungrounded.


OK, fair enough. Here is my naive vision...

One gets saved.

One sits under elders for a number of years until you are a mature Christian. While you are sitting under those elders (5 fold ministry) you are taught your giftings and your ministry within the church.

Then you are given leave to go and minister in other places/assemblies where you are needed. You could go to a growing assembly, start your own, visit others depending where God leads.

I see in the original assembly as a nucleus of elders, babes and those still learning so you don't see people sitting on a pew for 40 years but going out and sowing into other places. You could grow into one of the elders in your original assembly or be used in another capacity in others.

Every saint has a ministry and it may not be exclusively needed in your local assembly. Sometimes just being there and worshipping with a group of people who need encouragement is a ministry. For example, a small assembly who has only a dozen people when you come from one that has 200 or more.

My theory is that the water is not moving is going to grow stagnant. We have little pools of swamp water where we should have large rivers flowing around to give encouragement and life to others.

It seems a little fearful to me to hold back the flow if we don't have any real good reasons not to.

OK, you can laugh now... :tiphat

[tbpew]

The opening quote is what has prompted my reply...
"Random attendance at any church keeps us from really becoming a part of a spiritual family. In essence we can become spiritual nomads, no home, no sense of belonging. People need the body of Christ for protection.”

This idea that a local assembly becomes a SPIRITUAL FAMILY is loaded with subtil traps that can muddle the creative process God has purposed for his own children and his own family.

Families are most often understood as fathers with mothers who bring forth offspring.

If a local congregation is a family, the peril is the "thought trap". If there becomes an implied founding/senior member-minister as the father and the older saints as mother, you have just jumbled-up a bunch of godly ordained offices and operations.

Children have real parents.
Wives have real husbands.
The brethren have a father in heaven.

Surrogates in the presence of the real introduce a double-mindedness.
A double-mindedness gives place for instability.

There is one father.
There is one family.
There is one name.

[originalsecretplace]

No blasting from me...

I'm not sure what the pastor meant by protection. The body, the whole body, not just a group of saints in a certain place are to encourage and minister to one another. That could mean your next door neighbour if they are in the body not just those you see on Sundays.

He obviously equates not showing up for assembly on Sunday at a certain place and time random attendance even if you were another place meeting with others in the body. It's sounds like the "unfatihful" term being applied here again.

[originalsecretplace]

The probelm with folks going to different churches is that who is responible for them.It's not fair to Pastors because they are unsure if they are responsible for church hoppers.When probelms arise and counseling needs to be done, are Pastors responsible to counsel church hoppers.
Also people that don't settle in a home church are held accountable to whom?
And where does their financial support go?


This is like the "what came first the chicken or the egg" question.

There are always arguments against an idea that people put forward based on how things function where they are based rather than how things may function in another paradigm.

AS it stands now the pastors that belong to certain denominations learn they are responsible for those who attend their assembly regularily and the saints are taught to tithe to those pastors. Now if the paradigm of the way the organization works were different then those ideas would change. For example, if the organization practised multiple eldership leadership. The pastors (elders) may be taught they are ALL responsible for the saints as God leads and the saint is taught to tithe to the group of elders or an administrative elder and than the tithes are distributed as needed.

So these "problems" are situational rather than foundational.

Why would a saints accountability be different?

[Ferd]

OK, fair enough. Here is my naive vision...

One gets saved.

One sits under elders for a number of years until you are a mature Christian. While you are sitting under those elders (5 fold ministry) you are taught your giftings and your ministry within the church.

Then you are given leave to go and minister in other places/assemblies where you are needed. You could go to a growing assembly, start your own, visit others depending where God leads.

I see in the original assembly as a nucleus of elders, babes and those still learning so you don't see people sitting on a pew for 40 years but going out and sowing into other places. You could grow into one of the elders in your original assembly or be used in another capacity in others.

Every saint has a ministry and it may not be exclusively needed in your local assembly. Sometimes just being there and worshipping with a group of people who need encouragement is a ministry. For example, a small assembly who has only a dozen people when you come from one that has 200 or more.

My theory is that the water is not moving is going to grow stagnant. We have little pools of swamp water where we should have large rivers flowing around to give encouragement and life to others.

It seems a little fearful to me to hold back the flow if we don't have any real good reasons not to.

OK, you can laugh now... :tiphat

well, now that is vastly different than your opening statement! I would not suggest that you are completley off base as it appears to be a well thought out plan.

The problem I see, is that instead of helping to create this, you are asking others who have a well established methodology to change.

I dont think it is fare to suggest that those who have worked lifetimes to create something to shift their method.


Having said that, if you are willing to create an assymbly that does what you propose, there is clearly some merit to it.


I one reservation is that this looks like you are trying to put everyone in the five fold ministry? can you clarify this?

[Scott Hutchinson]

This is like the "what came first the chicken or the egg" question.

There are always arguments against an idea that people put forward based on how things function where they are based rather than how things may function in another paradigm.

AS it stands now the pastors that belong to certain denominations learn they are responsible for those who attend their assembly regularily and the saints are taught to tithe to those pastors. Now if the paradigm of the way the organization works were different then those ideas would change. For example, if the organization practised multiple eldership leadership. The pastors (elders) may be taught they are ALL responsible for the saints as God leads and the saint is taught to tithe to the group of elders or an administrative elder and than the tithes are distributed as needed.

So these "problems" are situational rather than foundational.

Why would a saints accountability be different?

Well I'm not trying sound judgemental.But I do think everybody needs a home church.

[originalsecretplace]

well, now that is vastly different than your opening statement! I would not suggest that you are completley off base as it appears to be a well thought out plan.

The problem I see, is that instead of helping to create this, you are asking others who have a well established methodology to change.

I dont think it is fare to suggest that those who have worked lifetimes to create something to shift their method.


Having said that, if you are willing to create an assymbly that does what you propose, there is clearly some merit to it.


I one reservation is that this looks like you are trying to put everyone in the five fold ministry? can you clarify this?

No. The 5-fold ministry is for the perfection of the saints. But all saints have a ministry and gifts to share within the body (not exclusively to a certain group within the body, necessarily)


Here it is in a nutshell:


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ,)
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

[originalsecretplace]

Well I'm not trying sound judgemental.But I do think everybody needs a home church.

I know you're not trying to sound judgemental... never entered my mind. :)

I think you need good relationships with Christ, saints, elders. Whether or not that translates into a "home" church where you never leave until you die (unless you or they move) is another question.

[Ferd]

No. The 5-fold ministry is for the perfection of the saints. But all saints have a ministry and gifts to share within the body (not exclusively to a certain group within the body, necessarily)


Here it is in a nutshell:


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ,)
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

so are you willing to step up and create this new methodology you speak of or are you asking others to change their approach?

[tbpew]

The probelm with folks going to different churches is that who is responible for them.It's not fair to Pastors because they are unsure if they are responsible for church hoppers.When probelms arise and counseling needs to be done, are Pastors responsible to counsel church hoppers.
Also people that don't settle in a home church are held accountable to whom?
And where does their financial support go?

I have no substantive content to add to OSP's reply to Scott's post quoted above but I do want to toss in a comment involving the portion I BOLDED above.

In another paradigm there may be an understanding that pastors are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saints.

If one is to place pastors as having responsibility FOR saints, then they [the pastors] would by necessity, need a delegated MASTERY and the saints would then become SERVANTS to the officeholder of pastor. I do not believe anyone hear publically advocates that view of the scriptures. No one can be accountable for something or somebody that they do not full authority over (again, the which comes first perspective that enables a paradigm).

Those who have a gifting/calling in the realm of God's spirit have a responsibility to GIVE ACCOUNT for how they administer that which has been given to them. I submit that "what has been given to them" is a gifting not a saint or sheep.

They have been given a gifting/calling for which they must give account; they have not been given another SOUL that they are now held responsible for.

We can rest from weariness (of our own works) and be refreshed in this calling, because we are only accountable for our own relationship with a personal, loving God. Undoubtedly, that relationship will take us into service to others, but our responsibility is to the SERVICE not the OTHERS.

Folks who believe God has given them sheep are excessively prone to believing that they have ownership priviledge and responsibility; I submit BOTH are false.

Again, we each have a responsibility, and will give account, to our calling and election within the body of God's anointing, but no member of the body of Christ is responsible to give account for the lifestyle and choices made by another member of God's church.

Each of us, as bondservants in Christ, will answer to our own master.

Who is your master?

Did your master delegate another master between you and him? If you believe he did, why did he need to do so?

[originalsecretplace]

so are you willing to step up and create this new methodology you speak of or are you asking others to change their approach?

Being just a saint I'm not encouraged to step up and create the methodology. It seems in order not to be called a wandering star or other things liek that I have to ask others to change their methodolgy?

Maybe it's a bottom up rather than top down change? But then is that against God's model of authority?

[originalsecretplace]

I have no substantive content to add to OSP's reply to Scott's post quoted above but I do want to toss in a comment involving the portion I BOLDED above.

In another paradigm there may be an understanding that pastors are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saints.

If one is to place pastors as having responsibility FOR saints, then they [the pastors] would by necessity, need a delegated MASTERY and the saints would then become SERVANTS to the officeholder of pastor. I do not believe anyone hear publically advocates that view of the scriptures. No one can be accountable for something or somebody that they do not full authority over (again, the which comes first perspective that enables a paradigm).

Those who have a gifting/calling in the realm of God's spirit have a responsibility to GIVE ACCOUNT for how they administer that which has been given to them. I submit that "what has been given to them" is a gifting not a saint or sheep.

They have been given a gifting/calling for which they must give account; they have not been given another SOUL that they are now held responsible for.

We can rest from weariness (of our own works) and be refreshed in this calling, because we are only accountable for our own relationship with a personal, loving God. Undoubtedly, that relationship will take us into service to others, but our responsibility is to the SERVICE not the OTHERS.

Folks who believe God has given them sheep are excessively prone to believing that they have ownership priviledge and responsibility; I submit BOTH are false.

Again, we each have a responsibility, and will give account, to our calling and election within the body of God's anointing, but no member of the body of Christ is responsible to give account for the lifestyle and choices made by another member of God's church.

Each of us, as bondservants in Christ, will answer to our own master.

Who is your master?

Did your master delegate another master between you and him? If you believe he did, why did he need to do so?

Good post.

I think that is the prevalent point of view here and though some may think they do not think that way I think you can read in their answers that on some level they do believe that.

[tbpew]

so are you willing to step up and create this new methodology you speak of or are you asking others to change their approach?

I know I am not the one being asked...but as one who contributes in these type of discussions I offer my current perspective to the question you pose.

God is building his church, his dwellingplace, his own abode. Men who are out there presuming to help God build his own house will stand alongside David. A man who's heart was after God WAS NOT ABLE to build God a house.

Each of us must decide if we are trying to BUILD or trying to FIND the house of God.

[Ferd]

Being just a saint I'm not encouraged to step up and create the methodology. It seems in order not to be called a wandering star or other things liek that I have to ask others to change their methodolgy?

Maybe it's a bottom up rather than top down change? But then is that against God's model of authority?

clearly you have an issue.

the reality is, when you are talking about groups like the UPCI,ALJC,AMF and others, you are talking about people that have spent lifetimes doing what they believe to be the will of God (and I agree with them that it is).

They have worked diligently and patiently by generation in some cases, to build a church and organizations that work collectivly on the format that they had, and one that fits within an understanding of scripture.

Now you have decided there are issues with it. You may be right! Asking these men to make such fundamental changes, IMOH isnt right.

There are folk out there doing this multiple elder stuff now. so if they are right, eventually they will over take the rest of us. I wish them well.

[webe123]

I have no substantive content to add to OSP's reply to Scott's post quoted above but I do want to toss in a comment involving the portion I BOLDED above.

In another paradigm there may be an understanding that pastors are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saints.

If one is to place pastors as having responsibility FOR saints, then they [the pastors] would by necessity, need a delegated MASTERY and the saints would then become SERVANTS to the officeholder of pastor. I do not believe anyone hear publically advocates that view of the scriptures. No one can be accountable for something or somebody that they do not full authority over (again, the which comes first perspective that enables a paradigm).

Those who have a gifting/calling in the realm of God's spirit have a responsibility to GIVE ACCOUNT for how they administer that which has been given to them. I submit that "what has been given to them" is a gifting not a saint or sheep.

They have been given a gifting/calling for which they must give account; they have not been given another SOUL that they are now held responsible for.

We can rest from weariness (of our own works) and be refreshed in this calling, because we are only accountable for our own relationship with a personal, loving God. Undoubtedly, that relationship will take us into service to others, but our responsibility is to the SERVICE not the OTHERS.

Folks who believe God has given them sheep are excessively prone to believing that they have ownership priviledge and responsibility; I submit BOTH are false.

Again, we each have a responsibility, and will give account, to our calling and election within the body of God's anointing, but no member of the body of Christ is responsible to give account for the lifestyle and choices made by another member of God's church.

Each of us, as bondservants in Christ, will answer to our own master.

Who is your master?

Did your master delegate another master between you and him? If you believe he did, why did he need to do so?

I think this is VERY WRONG! Pastors most certrianly ARE responsible for those under them and it is the people under them that are responsible for submitting to their authority!

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Show me in the word of God exactly WHERE it says that because God said to "obey those that hath the rule over you", that they are somehow "masters" of a person. Or that they somehow "own" them. It DOES say that they must give an account...so that speakes volumes! It is not "ownership"....but ACCOUNTABILITY that they are responsible for!

I submit that it is not about being a slave or master, but a servant of Christ who submits to the authority of the person (or persons) over them and those in charge such as a pastor and leadership are responsible for the people or flock under their authority. Also, it is the pastors responsibility to make sure that those under their authority are ready for heaven.

We currently have an evanglist at our church. He told our church the other night, however,that there is a pastor at a church he bases himself out of...that if that pastor were to call him and say he needed him....he respects him so much that he would drop the revival he is in and go to him! And this is an evangilist talking!

It seems that a lot of statements made here, are from people who somehow want to find a way to do things differently because they believe that the current way of doing things is wrong. Even though a lot of what is being said about faithfulness, is what God's word backs up.

If you really want to find a way to do things your own way....why would you want to belong to any form of christianityat all? After all, the bible says we are servants to someone...either the Devil or Christ...

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

How then can you say you are wanting to serve God, if you cannot even submit to an authority figure or even stay rooted and grounded in one church if you are a saint and not in the five fold ministry? I am sorry, but I see a lot of people making excuses for what they believe, but to me they have not given credible evidence as to WHY they should not be grounded in one church if they are a saint. But the word of God DOES give reason's why you should be accountable to one pastor.

And as far as "not being a plant" well the word of God says....
Psalm 1:3
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Now how exactly are you going to bring forth fruit in due season, if you are CONSTANTLY being uprooted? Sorry, but to me this is very basic. If you constantly uproot a tree or plant....it can never find the roots it needs to grow. Thus, it can never bear the fruit it is supposed to in it's due season.

Again it all goes back to being grounded and having some kind of root system that you can draw strength from in times that you need strength. This is what a body of believers provides. It would take an incredibly strong christian to just go it alone and jump from church to church, being accountable to no one but God and never having any roots.

Show me a kid who goes from school to school constantly and I will show you a kid who really has no grasp on the subjects he is currently studying and probably one that has no accountability to any one teacher.

So it could mean in some cases, he can become a troublemaker....because if he get's into trouble at one school, hey,he is not going to be there long so who cares? He just goes to another school where he can repeat the process over and over. This is also sometimes the attitude of a lot of saints that just go from church to church....they have no real accountability...so it does not matter if what they do or say hurts the church they go to. They can just go somewhere else, but somebody has to pick up the pieces of the mess they leave behind.

There is more to being accountable to a body of believers than just "falling in line" or "being a slave" , you also develop relationships with that body and if you have the RIGHT relationship.....you don't WANT to go anyplace else! It all goes back to your perception....do you view yourself a "slave" because you have a pastor and those you are accountable to? If you do, then you have the wrong perception....or are in a very abusive church situation that you need to get out of anyway.

But if you have the right relationship, you want to see your church grow and the peoiple you have formed relationships with, healthy !

[Titus2Mom]

Hello! I am new here, and just thought I would throw my pennies out there for what it is worth.

I will first explain that I am a very independent spirit, and one who continually questions by what authority decisions are made, and where is the scripture to show me? Where is the biblical standard, the biblical example? (Something I was taught in my first church.) Please understand, I am not rebellious nor one who causes strife....just one who asks alot of questions.

When I got "in church" many years ago, I lived in Germany, and we had a small little group who fellowshipped and worshipped together. That is where I was saved. In that area, there was a local German church. There was a lady I knew who was a single woman, who worked very long hours and strange hours (she was in the medical field) and sometimes she couldn't get to services in "her church" and since we held our meetings at unusual times (Tues. evening and Sunday afternoon) she would be able to make ours instead. We did not see her as intruding, neither did "her church" see her as hopping or being unfaithful.

She was our fellow sister, and part of THE CHURCH.

It is my opinion that there is only ONE church. There may be lots of buildings, and lots of congregations, but if they all teach and believe the truth they are just all chapters of the SAME church.

Where we live now, there are quite a UPC churches, some PAW churches and some others as well. There is an elderly man who goes around to just about every one of the UPC churches. He has family members in almost all of them. So he is visiting all of the "chapters" and seeing his earthly AND spiritual family at the same time. No one has a problem with it.

On the other hand, several years ago, we had moved to another area. We lived a good long ways from the assembly that I regularly attend. I knew that because of my husband's work, that I was going to have trouble making it all the way to my regular church on Wednesday evenings, so (thinking of my sister in Germany) I figured I could go to the nearby UPC church on the evenings that I wouldn't be able to make it to the next county in time for service. It meant visiting a local assembly, or not making it at all.

Much to my shock (me thinking we were all of the SAME church) I was called out from the pulpit and told I couldn't come to that church without my pastor's permission, and that I had to go to one or the other!

I was very saddened by this, and ended up missing alot of church because of it.

[Titus2Mom]

Honestly, I think it is more about Pastor's fear of losing control. Of course, I will add that I do not believe in the seperation of so called ministry and laity. I think we are all equal believers in the body.

I would have to agree with you. I do believe that there are different callings for different people, but that we are ALL saints.

[Titus2Mom]

OK, fair enough. Here is my naive vision...

One gets saved.

One sits under elders for a number of years until you are a mature Christian. While you are sitting under those elders (5 fold ministry) you are taught your giftings and your ministry within the church.

Then you are given leave to go and minister in other places/assemblies where you are needed. You could go to a growing assembly, start your own, visit others depending where God leads.

I see in the original assembly as a nucleus of elders, babes and those still learning so you don't see people sitting on a pew for 40 years but going out and sowing into other places. You could grow into one of the elders in your original assembly or be used in another capacity in others.

Every saint has a ministry and it may not be exclusively needed in your local assembly. Sometimes just being there and worshipping with a group of people who need encouragement is a ministry. For example, a small assembly who has only a dozen people when you come from one that has 200 or more.

My theory is that the water is not moving is going to grow stagnant. We have little pools of swamp water where we should have large rivers flowing around to give encouragement and life to others.

It seems a little fearful to me to hold back the flow if we don't have any real good reasons not to.

OK, you can laugh now... :tiphat



Not laughing here, I think that sounds wonderful!

[DEAK]

I am obviously late to this conversation.

I confess I have only read a couple of pages.

My question to someone who is considering this activity (going to varied churches in the same area) is: What would the outlet of your ministry and calling be? Most Christians utilize the church or parachurch ministry to follow God's call on their life...

[DEAK]

Originally Posted by Michlow
Honestly, I think it is more about Pastor's fear of losing control. Of course, I will add that I do not believe in the seperation of so called ministry and laity. I think we are all equal believers in the body.

I do not think that in most cases (at least in my case) it has anything to do with control. To me is has to do with the responsibility of being an undershepherd of the Good Shepherd. It's His church, he can do whatever he wants, call people whereever he wants....

My concerns as a pastor are:
1. Is God calling this person to move "away" from the local assembly?
2. Who will the person be accountable to? Everyone needs a pastor - even pastors!
3. Who will mentor the person?
4. Where/ when will the person receive rest and strengh, word, etc.?

Again, to me, its not about control. I have told the saints that I pastor, "If you feel God might be calling you somewhere - let's pray about it together." I would then pray, fast, and seek God - so that I can have the mind of Christ and confirm the will of God. It's not about control - it's about responsibility.

[OP_Carl]

So, where does the expected fidelity to a congregation come from? Is it learned by ministers through experience or teachings handed down in a denomination? It comes from the dark ages. The Roman Catholic Church. Any model of command-and-control priesthood with a passive, submissive and, often, ignorant, laity comes from the manipulations of the Catholic Church into an instrument for political control of the peasantry.

One may also well ask, where does the expectation that a congregation devote its resources of time and money for the purchase, preservation, and maintenance of a church building come from? What is the origin of the paradigm of parsonages? How about megachurches? What if the time that the faithful spent maintaining the building were spent reaching the lost, or what if the money that the faithful spent on the building were used to help the widows and orphans in their affliction?

I want to heed the counsel of good men but I don't see it as a command of God to saty in one place.

Paul gave his counsel and made the distiction between a command of God and his own advice as in the question of marrying.

Can I really die spiritually from this by contraveneing a command of God or is it a place to be careful and not rush in making sure that I'm not hurting anyone by doing so?

Or am I "limiting the life-giving number of connections(joints) that God can supply the members of his own body, his own house, his own handiwork" by heeding the advice?
Why don't you give it a try for a pre-determined trial period. I'm sure you'll quickly learn who your true friends are. As an added bonus, you may get a tour of "small-mind America" as you observe the reactions of the many, many people who will be incapable of comprehending your paradigm.

Being just a saint I'm not encouraged to step up and create the methodology. It seems in order not to be called a wandering star or other things liek that I have to ask others to change their methodolgy?

Maybe it's a bottom up rather than top down change? But then is that against God's model of authority? The truth is we have no concept of how to construct a new testament system of church methodology and authority. We can only occasionally get a glimpse of the differences between our practices and the original, then look away and rush along as though nothing happened.

[monkeysmom]

I honestly believe you have to feel around at times.. and God will plant you... where you can grow.. So many times people stay at certain stages because they become comfortable.. Visit and see and God will put you will you need to be.. God Bless