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Carpenter
06-21-2008, 01:52 PM
Cool, I drive by a PAW church frequently as I take care of business and I always wanted to stop and talk with them, today it happened.

They are having a special youth service today and I need someone to come into our elderly facility for bible studies, music and they are perfect.

At any rate, I spent two hours talking about stuff. No wonder the UPC doesn't have any inkling of a desire to get involved or even acknowledge them.

I will be in service with them tomorrow morning BTW...

mizpeh
06-21-2008, 01:59 PM
No wonder the UPC doesn't have any inkling of a desire to get involved or even acknowledge themWhat do you mean?
Are they whacko's?

clgustaveson
06-21-2008, 02:01 PM
Cool, I drive by a PAW church frequently as I take care of business and I always wanted to stop and talk with them, today it happened.

They are having a special youth service today and I need someone to come into our elderly facility for bible studies, music and they are perfect.

At any rate, I spent two hours talking about stuff. No wonder the UPC doesn't have any inkling of a desire to get involved or even acknowledge them.

I will be in service with them tomorrow morning BTW...

You don't explain why you think the UPC stays away from them....

Cindy
06-21-2008, 03:30 PM
What is PAW?

Hoovie
06-21-2008, 03:37 PM
You don't explain why you think the UPC stays away from them....

Right. I think it's a puzzle...


at least I am puzzled.

Hoovie
06-21-2008, 03:39 PM
What is PAW?

your avatar's foot?:toofunny

Carpenter
06-21-2008, 04:17 PM
From Wikpedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal_Assemblies_of_the_World

Really it has everything you wanted to know.

The Pentecostal Assemblies of The World, Inc. (PAW) is the oldest Oneness Pentecostal organization in existence, and was founded in 1906, formally organized in 1912 as adherents of trinitarian beliefs, and in 1916 re-organized as a Oneness Pentecostal organization...

As I was speaking with this gentlemen, meeting some very fine folks going in and out of the church, I realized they do not embrace, nor do they believe they are biblical, the social and cultural standards the UPC embraces.

This man told me the PAW believes the doctrine, but that all the trappings of legalism and mandated holiness was pretty much sin.

They believe the exact same thing as the UPC does in terms of baptism, speaking in tongues and salvation, and I told him this, most UPC and/or ultraconservative apostolic individual would say your women are not saved.

He really liked that one. He said y'all need to be delivered from that.

:D

Scott Hutchinson
06-21-2008, 04:25 PM
Check out their site.http://www.pawinc.org/

StillStanding
06-21-2008, 04:31 PM
.......He said y'all need to be delivered from that.

:D

Maybe one day. Just maybe! :)

CC1
06-21-2008, 04:33 PM
What is PAW?

The foot of a four legged mammal silly!!!!!:bliss

Carpenter
06-21-2008, 04:34 PM
Maybe one day. Just maybe! :)

Amen

Hoovie
06-21-2008, 05:20 PM
A couple of things to keep in mind...

1. Those who dress conservative are not automatically legalistic.

2. Many if not most UPC adherents would not say dress standards as they practice them are required or "mandated for salvation".

3. Not practicing "dress standards" or having no minimum dress requirement does not indicate an absense of legalism... but it may be indicative of laxness in other, more important areas of Christian living.

Praxeas
06-21-2008, 05:23 PM
At any rate, I spent two hours talking about stuff. No wonder the UPC doesn't have any inkling of a desire to get involved or even acknowledge them.
Excuse me? What in the world are you talking about? No wonder? because they talk to long? Two hours? Something is missing here...especially the part about the UPC having no inkling (whatever that means) of a desire to get involved or even acknowledge them. Says who? Please prove this statement

Praxeas
06-21-2008, 05:25 PM
From Wikpedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal_Assemblies_of_the_World

Really it has everything you wanted to know.

The Pentecostal Assemblies of The World, Inc. (PAW) is the oldest Oneness Pentecostal organization in existence, and was founded in 1906, formally organized in 1912 as adherents of trinitarian beliefs, and in 1916 re-organized as a Oneness Pentecostal organization...

As I was speaking with this gentlemen, meeting some very fine folks going in and out of the church, I realized they do not embrace, nor do they believe they are biblical, the social and cultural standards the UPC embraces.

This man told me the PAW believes the doctrine, but that all the trappings of legalism and mandated holiness was pretty much sin.

They believe the exact same thing as the UPC does in terms of baptism, speaking in tongues and salvation, and I told him this, most UPC and/or ultraconservative apostolic individual would say your women are not saved.

He really liked that one. He said y'all need to be delivered from that.

:D
Many PAWs still hold a lot of standards other than the jewelry and hair one. The PAW women I see wear cheap jewelry, not gaudy stuff and they cut their hair, but many have no makeup and wear dresses.

Praxeas
06-21-2008, 05:25 PM
The foot of a four legged mammal silly!!!!!:bliss
Or the father of a coon killin boy

Baron1710
06-21-2008, 05:28 PM
A couple of things to keep in mind...

1. Those who dress conservative are not automatically legalistic.

2. Many if not most UPC adherents would not say dress standards as they practice them are required or "mandated for salvation".

3. Not practicing "dress standards" or having no minimum dress requirement does not indicate an absense of legalism... but it may be indicative of laxness in other, more important areas of Christian living.

I've just never understood why we would want to have these extra Biblical "standards" they do nothing but create barriers and burdens for people to crawl over. When will we outgrow this silliness? Do we think God is pleased with us for making serving him difficult?

Hoovie
06-21-2008, 06:06 PM
I've just never understood why we would want to have these extra Biblical "standards" they do nothing but create barriers and burdens for people to crawl over. When will we outgrow this silliness? Do we think God is pleased with us for making serving him difficult?


You would have to ask someone who views these things as you presuppose in this post.

A proper concept of Christian disciplines should be about blessing and support - not burdens and barriers.

TRFrance
06-21-2008, 07:28 PM
I was once told that the PAW invited a Trinitarian preacher to speak at one of their recent conventions. I find that amazing and appaling, if true.

That's something you'd never see at a UPCI convention, ever.

Cindy
06-21-2008, 07:37 PM
Have you boys had your "fun" with my PAW question?

I hope so.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/ladyCntexas/avatar_1588-1.jpg

Sam
06-21-2008, 07:37 PM
I was once told that the PAW invited a Trinitarian preacher to speak at one of their recent conventions. I find that amazing and appaling, if true.

That's something you'd never see at a UPCI convention, ever.

Fellowship between trinitarians and oneness still goes on but usually at the local church level. I remember back in the nineteen seventies when the Ohio District of the ALJC rescinded a pastor's license/credentials because he had a trinity minister (I think he was Church of God) preach for him on more than one occasion. It bothered me back then that they as an organization did not allow that much liberty to a pastor and local church. I've been to a UPC church quite a few years ago when they had a trinitarian singing group come on more than one occasion.

The late AD Urshan started to baptize people in the name of "the Lord Jesus Christ" in Chicago, IL back in 1910 but he himself was not baptized that way until about 5 years later while preaching in Persia and Russia. He still continued to minister in both trinity and oneness churches until some time in 1918.

Hoovie
06-21-2008, 07:41 PM
I understand POA and others have had non OP speakers on a somewhat regular basis.

Sam
06-21-2008, 07:51 PM
I understand POA and others have had non OP speakers on a somewhat regular basis.

We read and preach from a Bible (King James Version) translated by trinitarians.

We sing a lot of songs that were written by trinitarians.

The UPC Publishing House has lots of books, etc. which are trinitarian in origin.

Lots of oneness ministers plagiarize trinitarian sermons and pass them off as something they've heard from God. I remember a UPC minister who was a second year student at ABI when I was there as a first year student in 1956/1957. As part of his homework assignment he had to turn in a sermon every week. The way he did this was he had a friend type one up each week from the Pentecostal Evangel (an Assemblies of God publication). He explained to me that God "gave" him those weekly messages by providing him the money to subscribe to the magazine. I've heard my UPC pastor preach a sermon that I had previously read in the Pentecostal Evangel.

ManOfWord
06-21-2008, 07:59 PM
I was once told that the PAW invited a Trinitarian preacher to speak at one of their recent conventions. I find that amazing and appaling, if true.

That's something you'd never see at a UPCI convention, ever.

Yeah, God forbid that a oneness pastor would have one o' them "heathern" devilish, unsaved, tongue talkin' trinnies in their pulpit. God would condemn the man, I tell you! Banish him from the promised land! Take away his inheritance! Destroy his church! And a host of other things that he would deserve from such a dastardly deed!!! :D

ChTatum
06-21-2008, 08:04 PM
Aw carp, you said "He said y'all need to be delivered from that."


Been there done that, working towards the kingdom.

bkstokes
06-21-2008, 08:07 PM
I understand POA and others have had non OP speakers on a somewhat regular basis.

Do you mean the Pentecostals of Alexandria? My cousin is on staff there and I have never heard of them having trinitarian preachers. When I lived in Alexandria, I picked up Bro. G. A. one day from the Airport. He personally talked to me about a big burden he had for a former AG pastor who had then gone out of that organization. That minister had a growing and thriving church in Alexandria and still does (I believe his son now pastors it). Anyway, GA said that he was praying that God would deliver those people from this Balaam like preacher.

I respect Bro. GA and believe firmly in the oneness (and all it entails), but I do not agree with that statement he made. Of course, him being my elder I did not disgree with him.

Anyway my point on the matter is I have never known of a trinitarian preach there. Over 8 years ago there were some HGF black baptist ministers from Shreveport who got baptized in Jesus name, and they were allowed to testify. However, they were never invited to preach.

CC1
06-21-2008, 08:31 PM
I understand POA and others have had non OP speakers on a somewhat regular basis.

I think you are incorrect here. I don't think the POA has had any trinitarian preachers that I know of behind their pulpit to "preach".

Anthony has had "seminars" with folks like John Maxwell or had him speak to a group of ministers but as far as having a trinitarian preach a church service - I don't think it has ever happened.

ChTatum
06-21-2008, 08:31 PM
MANY years ago, my UPC member pastor os our independent church, had the Roy Knight Singers come and sing for our congregation.

Their major song was "Wrapped Up, Tied Up, Tangled All Up in Jesus". Great song, Oneness people shouting all over the place despite the second verse.

"After I got salvation, I wanted a little bit more, so I got down on my knees, and began to seek the Lord. I knew the Holy Spirit, and I prayed for Him to come, before I knew it, I found myself speaking in unknown tongues."

Did the person get salvation before they spoke in tongues??????

Hoovie
06-21-2008, 08:34 PM
I think you are incorrect here. I don't think the POA has had any trinitarian preachers that I know of behind their pulpit to "preach".

Anthony has had "seminars" with folks like John Maxwell or had him speak to a group of ministers but as far as having a trinitarian preach a church service - I don't think it has ever happened.

Well actually that IS what I was refering to. John Maxwell is a non-OP Christian speaker.

Why should he be disqualified? was the pulpit not used? :)

bkstokes
06-21-2008, 08:37 PM
Well actually that IS what I was refering to. John Maxwell is a non-OP Christian speaker.

Why should he be disqualified? was the pulpit not used? :)

This was done during BOTT and it was strictly on leadership principles. There was never any doctrinal issues discussed.

However, they have never preached to his congregation.

Bobbys
06-21-2008, 09:02 PM
The PAW and the UPC are in biblical error. When ever you hear a church say its ok to wear what ever you want and /or you can wear JEWLERY, its in error. 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4 is right in the bible, and not going anywhere. So, the PAW and the UPC are both going to hell, if they don't obey the bible

bkstokes
06-21-2008, 09:39 PM
The PAW and the UPC are in biblical error. When ever you hear a church say its ok to wear what ever you want and /or you can wear JEWLERY, its in error. 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4 is right in the bible, and not going anywhere. So, the PAW and the UPC are both going to hell, if they don't obey the bible

Wow

So I guess Joseph is going to hell and Daniel too?

Hoovie
06-21-2008, 09:58 PM
This was done during BOTT and it was strictly on leadership principles. There was never any doctrinal issues discussed.

However, they have never preached to his congregation.

I understand - I really do, but I am saying there is no difference.

I think there is no problem having Trinitarians speak/preach. Of course as you stated, I would not expect any controversial "doctrine" being preached.

Sam
06-21-2008, 10:42 PM
MANY years ago, my UPC member pastor os our independent church, had the Roy Knight Singers come and sing for our congregation.

Their major song was "Wrapped Up, Tied Up, Tangled All Up in Jesus". Great song, Oneness people shouting all over the place despite the second verse.

"After I got salvation, I wanted a little bit more, so I got down on my knees, and began to seek the Lord. I knew the Holy Spirit, and I prayed for Him to come, before I knew it, I found myself speaking in unknown tongues."

Did the person get salvation before they spoke in tongues??????

Well, if you are a one-stepper Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal you have no problem with those words.

Sam
06-21-2008, 10:46 PM
The PAW and the UPC are in biblical error. When ever you hear a church say its ok to wear what ever you want and /or you can wear JEWLERY, its in error. 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4 is right in the bible, and not going anywhere. So, the PAW and the UPC are both going to hell, if they don't obey the bible

So a necklace is wrong if it is made of gold, silver, pewter, plastic, coral,
diamonds, pearls, brass or whatever material except cloth, but if it is made of cloth and called a "necktie" then it is OK?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 04:23 AM
I'm writing to respond to other comments I have just seen. One mentioned Joseph and Daniel must be going to hell then. Joseph and Daniel were not in the church, and was NOT under the New Testament law. Its two different dispensations, and two different laws. Somethings from the old testament continued through to the new testament, but the new testament CLEARLY CONDEMNS JEWLERY 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4, so why be a hypocrite about it and try to condone wearing jewlery? Now for the next question. A neck tie is NOT jewlery, its CLOTHING. Why be a hypocrite? You know the difference. Lets see you go to a jewlery store and say can I have a neck tie of cloth, and see if they don't look at you like your crazy. Just do what the bible say and what I say, and pull OFF the jewlery.

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 06:13 AM
Yeah, God forbid that a oneness pastor would have one o' them "heathern" devilish, unsaved, tongue talkin' trinnies in their pulpit. God would condemn the man, I tell you! Banish him from the promised land! Take away his inheritance! Destroy his church! And a host of other things that he would deserve from such a dastardly deed!!! :D

Well MoW, your off-base and over-the-top response doesn't surprise me at all.
The term "doctrinal compromise" seems to mean little to you. Very sad.

Anyway... Carry on, bro.

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 07:36 AM
I'm writing to respond to other comments I have just seen. One mentioned Joseph and Daniel must be going to hell then. Joseph and Daniel were not in the church, and was NOT under the New Testament law. Its two different dispensations, and two different laws. Somethings from the old testament continued through to the new testament, but the new testament CLEARLY CONDEMNS JEWLERY 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4, so why be a hypocrite about it and try to condone wearing jewlery? Now for the next question. A neck tie is NOT jewlery, its CLOTHING. Why be a hypocrite? You know the difference. Lets see you go to a jewlery store and say can I have a neck tie of cloth, and see if they don't look at you like your crazy. Just do what the bible say and what I say, and pull OFF the jewlery.

I agree by the way have you ever heard of Bishop S. C. Johnson?

freeatlast
06-22-2008, 08:06 AM
I'm writing to respond to other comments I have just seen. One mentioned Joseph and Daniel must be going to hell then. Joseph and Daniel were not in the church, and was NOT under the New Testament law. Its two different dispensations, and two different laws. Somethings from the old testament continued through to the new testament, but the new testament CLEARLY CONDEMNS JEWLERY 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4, so why be a hypocrite about it and try to condone wearing jewlery? Now for the next question. A neck tie is NOT jewlery, its CLOTHING. Why be a hypocrite? You know the difference. Lets see you go to a jewlery store and say can I have a neck tie of cloth, and see if they don't look at you like your crazy. Just do what the bible say and what I say, and pull OFF the jewlery.

No it's not jewelry ..you are corrrect it is apparrel ...which the same verse commands not to be worn.

Bobby boy....you are so tangled up in idealogy that it's unlikely you could ever understand theology.

Like the PAW preacher told Carp....."you need delivered from that"

Truthseeker
06-22-2008, 10:49 AM
The PAW and the UPC are in biblical error. When ever you hear a church say its ok to wear what ever you want and /or you can wear JEWLERY, its in error. 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4 is right in the bible, and not going anywhere. So, the PAW and the UPC are both going to hell, if they don't obey the bible

Does your pastor wear bow ties and smashed a statue of Mary?

clgustaveson
06-22-2008, 11:22 AM
From Wikpedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal_Assemblies_of_the_World

Really it has everything you wanted to know.

The Pentecostal Assemblies of The World, Inc. (PAW) is the oldest Oneness Pentecostal organization in existence, and was founded in 1906, formally organized in 1912 as adherents of trinitarian beliefs, and in 1916 re-organized as a Oneness Pentecostal organization...

As I was speaking with this gentlemen, meeting some very fine folks going in and out of the church, I realized they do not embrace, nor do they believe they are biblical, the social and cultural standards the UPC embraces.

This man told me the PAW believes the doctrine, but that all the trappings of legalism and mandated holiness was pretty much sin.

They believe the exact same thing as the UPC does in terms of baptism, speaking in tongues and salvation, and I told him this, most UPC and/or ultraconservative apostolic individual would say your women are not saved.

He really liked that one. He said y'all need to be delivered from that.

:D


So do you partake in elitist UPC bashing propaganda every day?

It sickens me how one sided people's views are. I have been to one church that rudely judgmental and UPC, it will remain unnamed.

Carpenter
06-22-2008, 11:41 AM
So do you partake in elitist UPC bashing propaganda every day?

It sickens me how one sided people's views are. I have been to one church that rudely judgmental and UPC, it will remain unnamed.

No not every day, sometimes I have a tendency to be busy doing other stuff..

I am kind of surprised an intelligent person like you would call this elitist UPC bashing propaganda. I did not prompt this individual to say what he did, I did not tell him my position, he said it, I reported it as a topic of discussion.

I thought it was pretty ironic however in context because here the UPC has said they have a burden for the city, yet they expect everyone IN that city to drive up to an hour and a half to get there. This is also very evident in not partnering with other churches with folks of like precious faith. IF the UPC in my city were to fellowship with the men, great they look fine and acceptable, the women? Forget it, we are hung up on the appearance of your women, we can't reach the city with the gospel together.

To me it is indicative of the UPCmovement and approach to isolate from their fellowship EVERYONE who does not follow the 10 steps exactly to their expectations. THe UCs are great at this because if they don't agree, then hey, start a whole new organization and lets REALLY reach this city.

It is a big sham.

clgustaveson
06-22-2008, 11:44 AM
No not every day, sometimes I have a tendency to be busy doing other stuff..

I am kind of surprised an intelligent person like you would call this elitist UPC bashing propaganda. I did not prompt this individual to say what he did, I did not tell him my position, he said it, I reported it as a topic of discussion.

I thought it was pretty ironic however in context because here the UPC has said they have a burden for the city, yet they expect everyone IN that city to drive up to an hour and a half to get there. This is also very evident in not partnering with other churches with folks of like precious faith. IF the UPC in my city were to fellowship with the men, great they look fine and acceptable, the women? Forget it, we are hung up on the appearance of your women, we can't reach the city with the gospel together.

To me it is indicative of the UPCmovement and approach to isolate from their fellowship EVERYONE who does not follow the 10 steps exactly to their expectations. THe UCs are great at this because if they don't agree, then hey, start a whole new organization and lets REALLY reach this city.

It is a big sham.

I was joking BTW but you promoted him with the "they would think your women aren't saved" primer. I would have said the same thing as him if I were in his position. Really you were the one being judgmental, he was being honest if that was the sentiment.

Just come to terms, you hate the UPC. The only reason you deny it is because you want to go to heaven clear case of cognitive dissonance.

Carpenter
06-22-2008, 12:49 PM
I was joking BTW but you promoted him with the "they would think your women aren't saved" primer. I would have said the same thing as him if I were in his position. Really you were the one being judgmental, he was being honest if that was the sentiment.

Just come to terms, you hate the UPC. The only reason you deny it is because you want to go to heaven clear case of cognitive dissonance.

I don't hate anything or anyone. You need to come to terms that just because someone disagrees, they hate, bash, propagandize, etc.

I told that man exactly what I have been taught, and what folks have said verbatim around here. It may have been a primer, but I wasn't misrepresenting the UPC. Had I said something like, "It seems to me that the UPC doesn't like black people..." THAT is enciting a riot based on an assumption. I did not say what I did to get an emotional reaction.


There is no cognitive dissonance. I do not NEED to have faith in my own beliefs AND the UPC doctrine in order to be saved. Your comment is exactly why I believe in many many cases Apostolics don't have a clear or true understanding of grace.

CC1
06-22-2008, 12:55 PM
Carp, I think you left the word "don't" our of your first sentance in your last post (after "they" and before "hate")

Praxeas
06-22-2008, 12:58 PM
I'm writing to respond to other comments I have just seen. One mentioned Joseph and Daniel must be going to hell then. Joseph and Daniel were not in the church, and was NOT under the New Testament law. Its two different dispensations, and two different laws. Somethings from the old testament continued through to the new testament, but the new testament CLEARLY CONDEMNS JEWLERY 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4, so why be a hypocrite about it and try to condone wearing jewlery? Now for the next question. A neck tie is NOT jewlery, its CLOTHING. Why be a hypocrite? You know the difference. Lets see you go to a jewlery store and say can I have a neck tie of cloth, and see if they don't look at you like your crazy. Just do what the bible say and what I say, and pull OFF the jewlery.
I went to those verses and I did not see condemnation of anything. I did see something about gold, silver and expensive clothing.

From your post you don't seem to know what a hypocrite is.

Jewelry
1.articles of gold, silver, precious stones, etc., for personal adornment. 2.any ornaments for personal adornment, as necklaces or cuff links, including those of base metals, glass, plastic, or the like.

BTW I love the last line...just do what the bible says...and what I say...LOL

Watches are jewelry given the above def. as well as any ornament for personal adornment.

That covers most ladies in Pentecost with their broaches and hair pins and their fancy shoes.

Carpenter
06-22-2008, 01:23 PM
I don't hate anything or anyone. You need to come to terms that just because someone disagrees, they don't hate, bash, propagandize, etc.

I told that man exactly what I have been taught, and what folks have said verbatim around here. It may have been a primer, but I wasn't misrepresenting the UPC. Had I said something like, "It seems to me that the UPC doesn't like black people..." THAT is enciting a riot based on an assumption. I did not say what I did to get an emotional reaction.


There is no cognitive dissonance. I do not NEED to have faith in my own beliefs AND the UPC doctrine in order to be saved. Your comment is exactly why I believe in many many cases Apostolics don't have a clear or true understanding of grace.

Thanks CC. How am I doing here?

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 01:54 PM
I don't hate anything or anyone. You need to come to terms that just because someone disagrees, they hate, bash, propagandize, etc.

I told that man exactly what I have been taught, and what folks have said verbatim around here. It may have been a primer, but I wasn't misrepresenting the UPC. Had I said something like, "It seems to me that the UPC doesn't like black people..." THAT is enciting a riot based on an assumption. I did not say what I did to get an emotional reaction.


There is no cognitive dissonance. I do not NEED to have faith in my own beliefs AND the UPC doctrine in order to be saved. Your comment is exactly why I believe in many many cases Apostolics don't have a clear or true understanding of grace.
Ok, so, what is the true or clear understanding of grace?

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 01:54 PM
and, how was the service this morn?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Freeatlast try to read your bible a little more. You said apparel is condemned, what a fool. You are ALLOWED to wear MODEST apparel, and as long as the neck tie is a solid black and so forth, its modest, and condoned by the bible. And yes Steve Epley I know of Bishop S C Johnson. Johnson was the ONE who had the WHOLE TRUTH. Johnson's doctrine still stands, and everything other than that is FALSE.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:02 PM
praxeas, if you don't understand what I said I think you need to go back to the atleast the fourth grade. The bible is PLAIN in 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4. A child can understand that. The only ones who can't understand that, are the people that are full of the devil. ha ha ha. Now pull OFF the JEWLERY and save yourself, or wear it and go to hell, its your choice. Only a first class hypocrite would fight what the bible says in those scriptures.

Cindy
06-22-2008, 02:04 PM
Freeatlast try to read your bible a little more. You said apparel is condemned, what a fool. You are ALLOWED to wear MODEST apparel, and as long as the neck tie is a solid black and so forth, its modest, and condoned by the bible. And yes Steve Epley I know of Bishop S C Johnson. Johnson was the ONE who had the WHOLE TRUTH. Johnson's doctrine still stands, and everything other than that is FALSE.

Johnson's doctrine is above God's word? Is that what you are saying, or he was the only man that had the truth? THAT would be false doctrine!

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:07 PM
cneastix, how could Johnson's doctrine be above God's word, when it IS God's word. Bishop S C Johnson was instructed, anointed, and appointed by God to to preach the word of God. Therefore what Johnson says go's, and holds fast until this very day

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:10 PM
Now let not the people rise up against me, because I am backed with bible from here to Missippi, and well able. And also truthseeker, your talking about Gino Jennings. Jennings is a flase prophet sent by the devil, just like your preacher

Sherri
06-22-2008, 02:11 PM
Freeatlast try to read your bible a little more. You said apparel is condemned, what a fool. You are ALLOWED to wear MODEST apparel, and as long as the neck tie is a solid black and so forth, its modest, and condoned by the bible. And yes Steve Epley I know of Bishop S C Johnson. Johnson was the ONE who had the WHOLE TRUTH. Johnson's doctrine still stands, and everything other than that is FALSE.You get banned around here for calling people fools!

By the way, I have never heard of SC Johnson, so I guess I just will have to rely on the Word of God.:happydance

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:11 PM
Idolatry pure and simple. SCJ was a mouthpiece for God?! How do you know he had the complete Truth?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:15 PM
reformedDave, how do I know. I read the bible, and what Johnson say I say, and see it the scripture. Therefore I speak as the bible says I believe therefore have I spoken. Now do what the bible say do.

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:17 PM
Freeatlast try to read your bible a little more. You said apparel is condemned, what a fool. You are ALLOWED to wear MODEST apparel, and as long as the neck tie is a solid black and so forth, its modest, and condoned by the bible. And yes Steve Epley I know of Bishop S C Johnson. Johnson was the ONE who had the WHOLE TRUTH. Johnson's doctrine still stands, and everything other than that is FALSE.

1... I think it's very impolite to call this man a fool. You should really check yourself on that.

2... If the tie needs to be "solid black and so forth", are you telling me that wearing decorative or multi-colored ties is immodest, and thus a sin? I hardly think the scripture supports that kind of conclusion.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:17 PM
I have read the bible for myself, and Johnson is alright. Thats why the people get fired up against me, because I believe and therefore speak.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:20 PM
Well TrFrance, Jesus called people fools Luke 24:25 and Paul said fool 1Corinthians 15:36. Do I have to teach you? And if you don't believe what the bible say your a fool.

Sherri
06-22-2008, 02:20 PM
I have read the bible for myself, and Johnson is alright. Thats why the people get fired up against me, because I believe and therefore speak.
Who in the world is this Johnson, and pray tell how we've been saved all these years without him?????

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:21 PM
And also TRFrance, which one is MODEST a solid black tie or a black tie with yellow pokadots or stripes

Sherri
06-22-2008, 02:22 PM
Good grief; I must be on Bobby's ignore list. Would someone please tell him to quit calling names!

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 02:23 PM
Good grief; I must be on Bobby's ignore list. Would someone please tell him to quit calling names!

:winkgrin

Cindy
06-22-2008, 02:24 PM
:winkgrin

tsk tsk, :toofunny

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:25 PM
Who in the world is this Johnson, and pray tell how we've been saved all these years without him?????


Johnson is a preacher who is now dead with a following of people very much like the Branhamite crowd.

Cindy
06-22-2008, 02:26 PM
Hey, where is that ADMIN with the big STOP sign?

To tell that Bobbys guy to shup.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:27 PM
Sherri you haven't been saved, depending on your manner of livings according to the word of God. Bishop S C Johnson was a God instructed apostle, called and sent by God who is Jesus Christ. The man Johnson defied the entire religious world and NO ONE was able to answer. I think thats ok right. Look he up. The man told the WHOLE TRUTH. The name of the TRUE CHURCH is THE CHURCH OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST OF THE APOSTOLIC FAITH. But be careful because alot of false people try to use that name. 22nd and Bainbridge in Philadelphia Pa was where Johnson declared the WHOLE TRUTH. But the people there NOW under a man by the name of Omega are FALSE, and have turrned from the right way, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns that can not profit

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:27 PM
I vote we lock Bobbys and Dr Vaughn in a room together and let them duke it out over who is the preacher for this generation. :D

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:27 PM
reformedDave, how do I know. I read the bible, and what Johnson say I say, and see it the scripture. Therefore I speak as the bible says I believe therefore have I spoken. Now do what the bible say do.

There are so many things about God and His word that a lifetime is not enough. But besides this how do you KNOW that SCJ's interpretation of Scripture is the correct one? Not simple because he told you.......No that's naive. What's your epistemology?

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:28 PM
Sherri you haven't been saved, depending on your manner of livings according to the word of God. Bishop S C Johnson was a God instructed apostle, called and sent by God who is Jesus Christ. The man Johnson defied the entire religious world and NO ONE was able to answer. I think thats ok right. Look he up. The man told the WHOLE TRUTH. The name of the TRUE CHURCH is THE CHURCH OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST OF THE APOSTOLIC FAITH. But be careful because alot of false people try to use that name. 22nd and Bainbridge in Philadelphia Pa was where Johnson declared the WHOLE TRUTH. But the people there NOW under a man by the name of Omega are FALSE, and have turrned from the right way, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns that can not profit

An apostle with the same authority as the 12?

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:28 PM
Well TrFrance, Jesus called people fools Luke 24:25 and Paul said fool 1Corinthians 15:36. Do I have to teach you? And if you don't believe what the bible say your a fool.
Well, you sure like throwing the word "fool" around a lot, don't you

Yes, I know the word is in the bible. You don't need to teach me that.

Maybe its not merely your use of the word itself that bugs me... maybe its just your unnecessarily abrasive tone that I really take issue with.

But since you feel like quoting scripture to me, you may also keep in mind Mat 5:22, in which Jesus said
" ...but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
You see, Bobby, its not simply the word itself. Its also our the spirit with which we speak to our brothers and sisters. Keep that in mind, sir.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:29 PM
Rico Johnson is nothing like the Branamite group. Light is not darkness and neither can darkness be light

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:29 PM
:bigbaby Jewelry and dress, whatever you want...but you BETTER not call anyone names!!! :rolleyes2



:bored

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:29 PM
Rico Vaughn has already been DEFEATED by me

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:29 PM
Rico Johnson is nothing like the Branamite group. Light is not darkness and neither can darkness be light

HOGWASH. You're all brainwashed.

Praxeas
06-22-2008, 02:30 PM
And also TRFrance, which one is MODEST a solid black tie or a black tie with yellow pokadots or stripes
The bible does not say modest, it says costly. So it goes by price.

Also you set up a false comparison.

One can always find something that is less or more "modest" in your eyes than something else. That does not make the one that is less modest "Immodest"

No tie is more modest than a black tie. Why is black more modest than white or blue?

It becomes a circular argument. "Black is more modest because black is conservative"...prove black is conservative "black is conservative because that is how we have been doing it." "No, conservatives wear ties that are not all black", "Only a true conservative wears black ties, the others are not really conservative. Therefore wearing a black tie is conservative"

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:30 PM
HOGWASH. You're all brainwashed.

It's a cult!

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:31 PM
And also TRFrance, which one is MODEST a solid black tie or a black tie with yellow pokadots or stripes
I have a black tie with white stripes on it. So my questions to you are:
Is that tie immodest?
Is it a sin for me to wear that ties?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:31 PM
Johnson had the same athority as the twelve

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:31 PM
Now THIS is entertaining :)

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:32 PM
Rico, do I have to take the word of God and crush you with it. ha ha ah I'm well able

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:32 PM
Johnson had the same athority as the twelve

Did he meet Christ face to face??????

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:33 PM
It's a cult!

Back on GNC we had a thread there on this SC Johnson fella. Just like Vaugh with Branham, these people speak the name of Johnson more than Jesus. Same sickness, different leader.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:33 PM
TRFrance I asked you the question first, now ANSWER. Which one is MODEST, a solid black tie or a black tie with yellow pokadots or yellow strips? ANSWER

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:34 PM
Rico, do I have to take the word of God and crush you with it. ha ha ah I'm well able



Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I'm scared. NOT!

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:34 PM
I wonder if i'm a cult why can't NOBODY PROVE me wrong. I dare you

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:35 PM
Rico Johnson is nothing like the Branamite group. Light is not darkness and neither can darkness be light

Yeah, but whatever you guys say about Johnson, Branham's followers can also say about him!! So maybe it's better to focus on Jesus, and ignore both of these men.

I didn't follow either Johnson, or Branham, yet I'm saved. That's good enough for me.
.
.
.
PS...
God is saving people all over the world every day that never heard of Johnson or his teachings. Jesus is enough.

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:36 PM
I wonder if i'm a cult why can't NOBODY PROVE me wrong. I dare you

Did SCJ see Jesus in the flesh?

chosenbyone
06-22-2008, 02:36 PM
Now THIS is entertaining :)

It sure is...:popcorn2

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:36 PM
Rico, let me give you a little information about myself. I'm known as "The man that defies every man". So, when ever your ready for a debate, contact me.

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:37 PM
Rico, let me give you a little information about myself. I'm known as "The man that defies every man". So, when ever your ready for a debate, contact me.

Who cares what you are known as? I am known as a good looking fat guy. Big deal.

chosenbyone
06-22-2008, 02:37 PM
Johnson had the same athority as the twelve

You may want to try spell check, brother.

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 02:38 PM
Rico, let me give you a little information about myself. I'm known as "The man that defies every man". So, when ever your ready for a debate, contact me.

Do you carry any degrees to prove your 'intelligence'?

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:38 PM
You may want to try spell check, brother.
SCJ would never had made that mistake.........

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 02:38 PM
Who cares what you are known as? I am known as a good looking fat guy. Big deal.

You forgot to add 'sweet'! :gaga

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:39 PM
TRFrance I asked you the question first, now ANSWER. Which one is MODEST, a solid black tie or a black tie with yellow pokadots or yellow strips? ANSWER
OK.. i'll answer your question, then you answer mine.

The black one is modest (or conservative might be another way to put it), the others are not necessarily immodest... just gaudy perhaps, maybe depending on how big and bright the polka dots are.

So...

Now back to my question... is wearing a striped or polka-dotted tie a sin?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:39 PM
Let me go read this warning from the Administration. ha ha ha ah. When you tell the truth someone gets angry

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:39 PM
Do you carry any degrees to prove your 'intelligence'?

Don't need no stinking edjamacation.....

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:41 PM
Do you carry any degrees to prove your 'intelligence'?
I think witchcraft and idolatry come to mind. Or, rebellion and stubborness, whichever is preferred. Wow, this guy is pretty proud of himself. OOOps, vanity...tsk tsk

chosenbyone
06-22-2008, 02:41 PM
Don't need no stinking edjamacation.....

:killinme

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:41 PM
Let me go read this warning from the Administration. ha ha ha ah. When you tell the truth someone gets angry

Yes. Truth was banned from this forum a long time ago. I think it would be best for you to find another forum interested in your version of truth.

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:42 PM
Let me go read this warning from the Administration. ha ha ha ah. When you tell the truth someone gets angry
and now it's only a matter of time...:tissue

:toofunny

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:44 PM
The Mrs, I carry a BIBLE, thats enough degree. ha ha ha. My wisdom is greater than your wisdom. Like I told a certain amount of people before, I am one of the most important people that you meet in your life since you been born till now. Now as far as TRFrance is concerned, you notice how you played around. You know the black tie is modest and the poka dot is immodest. Quit being a hypocrite. Now let me go look at the message from the Administration

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:44 PM
Sorry, Carp, anyway,

and, how was the service this morn?

BUMP

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:45 PM
This is the Born to Be Wild forum. We like smoke and lightning plus heavy metal thunder. The Forum's leader is totally Bad to the Bone too, and he's a man of his word. We call him MOW for short, and he's the only truth we know! :D

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:45 PM
Admin, if you were to decide that Bobby was being a divisive presence on the forum, and decided to ban him... many of us here wouldn't be all that upset.

(its not like I'm trying to drop a subtle hint or anything like that... OK maybe I am)

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:45 PM
The Mrs, I carry a BIBLE, thats enough degree. ha ha ha. My wisdom is greater than your wisdom. Like I told a certain amount of people before, I am one of the most important people that you meet in your life since you been born till now. Now as far as TRFrance is concerned, you notice how you played around. You know the black tie is modest and the poka dot is immodest. Quit being a hypocrite. Now let me go look at the message from the Administration

Even now, as I see this meteor flaming out, I am making my wish

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:47 PM
The Mrs, I carry a BIBLE, thats enough degree. ha ha ha. My wisdom is greater than your wisdom. Like I told a certain amount of people before, I am one of the most important people that you meet in your life since you been born till now. Now as far as TRFrance is concerned, you notice how you played around. You know the black tie is modest and the poka dot is immodest. Quit being a hypocrite. Now let me go look at the message from the Administration

So much for the lack of pride......you are about as modest and unobtrusive as stockyard except the stockyard smells better.

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 02:47 PM
TRFrance I asked you the question first, now ANSWER. Which one is MODEST, a solid black tie or a black tie with yellow pokadots or yellow strips? ANSWER


The definition of modest derives from the Latin modestus moderate;

Moderate's definition in regards to color says:

6 of a color : of medium lightness and medium chroma

Moderate basically means 'middle of the road'.

Moderate: avoiding extremes of behavior or expression; tending toward the mean or average amount or dimension; having average or less than average quality

You're a little off base if you think solid black is the only way of expressing 'modesty'.

Modest: placing a moderate estimate on one's abilities or worth b: neither bold nor self-assertive.

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:47 PM
Admin, if you were to decide that Bobby was being a divisive presence on the forum, and decided to ban him... many of us here wouldn't be all that upset.

(its not like I'm trying to drop a subtle hint or anything like that... OK maybe I am)

Let's wait until he starts a poll. :D

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:48 PM
Now as far as TRFrance is concerned, you notice how you played around. You know the black tie is modest and the poka dot is immodest. Quit being a hypocrite. Now let me go look at the message from the Administration
Are you going to answer the question? or do I have to ask you a third time for a straight answer?

Ok.. I'll ask you a THIRD TIME.
Is wearing a striped or polka-dotted tie a sin?

Please share your wisdom and knowledge with me on this simple topic. I'm sure it's not a hard question for you... or is it?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:49 PM
I'm not full of pride ReformedDave, I just tell it like it is. Jeuss told it like it was, and you see what they did to Jesus

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:49 PM
I'm not full of pride ReformedDave, I just tell it like it is. Jeuss told it like it was, and you see what they did to Jesus

A hint....you ain't Jesus and your apostle ain't either. BTW, did SCJ meet Jesus in the flesh?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:50 PM
TRFrance, I answered, pokadots is NOT MODEST and is a SIN

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:51 PM
ReformedDave, What I'm telling you you HAVE to do. Its no way around it

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:51 PM
TRFrance, I answered, pokadots is NOT MODEST and is a SIN

Scripture support please........

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:52 PM
I see alot of your post from time to time here on this forum, and alot of you'll are out of the way. But i am here to straighten you'll out

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:52 PM
ReformedDave, What I'm telling you you HAVE to do. Its no way around it

If SCJ didn't meet Christ in the flesh he is at BEST a small 'a' apostle.

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:53 PM
This sounds like Thad...

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:53 PM
This sounds like Thad...
Especially the spelling... :hmmm

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 02:53 PM
TRFrance, I answered, pokadots is NOT MODEST and is a SIN
Okey doke. I learn so much from this forum. Now I've learned that polka-dotted or striped ties are a sin. All righty then.
.
.
.
So Bobby... help me here....should i also assume that striped or polka dotted t-shirts, blouses, dresses etc are also a sin? ...anything that's not a solid color?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:53 PM
Watch this everyone. ReformedDave bible says let it NOT be that outward ADORNING. 1Peter 3:3 Is wearing Pokadots OUTWARD ADORNING yes or no

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:54 PM
Answer yes or no

chosenbyone
06-22-2008, 02:54 PM
I'm not full of pride ReformedDave, I just tell it like it is. Jeuss told it like it was, and you see what they did to Jesus

You can't be for real! You have to be pulling our legs, Dr. Seuss.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:54 PM
I'm going to smash ReformedDave with the bible

chosenbyone
06-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Especially the spelling... :hmmm

You beat me to the punch! :boxing:toofunny

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:55 PM
Before everyone gets too hot under the collar..uh..tie, think of this...

This sounds like Thad...

Especially the spelling... :hmmm

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:56 PM
I see alot of your post from time to time here on this forum, and alot of you'll are out of the way. But i am here to straighten you'll out


:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:56 PM
ReformedDave knows Pokadots is trying to draw attention to the outward. The first thing that is seen is that. And some false person will say that pokadot tie looks good on you, where did you get it from, and that hypocrite will go and by one

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 02:56 PM
I have NO idea what a pokadot is... I know what a POLK-a-dot is...

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 02:57 PM
Watch this everyone. ReformedDave bible says let it NOT be that outward ADORNING. 1Peter 3:3 Is wearing Pokadots OUTWARD ADORNING yes or no

Is wearing a necktie adorning???????

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 02:57 PM
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/_TheMrs_/buhbyebarbie.jpg Okay...buh-bye now! :wave

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:57 PM
Rico and the others just do what i tell you to do. You know i'm saying the truth from the BIBLE

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 02:58 PM
I am shocked that you folks know nothing of the late Bishop S. C. Johnson he built the largest Apostolic church in the world during his time in Philadephia, Pa. "The Church of The Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith" he was on the radio worldwide for years 7 nights a week. He died in 61 I think? His works (about 60 churches) fell into disaray after his death. There is a splinter group from DC that still plays his tapes on some radio stations.
The moment Bobby posted I knew his roots. He sounds like the Bishop.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 02:58 PM
ReformedDave CAN'T ANSWER. Why can't he answer why? why? Its impossible

Rico
06-22-2008, 02:59 PM
I am shocked that you folks know nothing of the late Bishop S. C. Johnson he built the largest Apostolic church in the world during his time in Philadephia, Pa. "The Church of The Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith" he was on the radio worldwide for years 7 nights a week. He died in 61 I think? His works (about 60 churches) fell into disaray after his death. There is a splinter group from DC that still plays his tapes on some radio stations.
The moment Bobby posted I knew his roots. He sounds like the Bishop.

They all try to parrot this Johnson fella.

Praxeas
06-22-2008, 02:59 PM
praxeas, if you don't understand what I said I think you need to go back to the atleast the fourth grade. The bible is PLAIN in 1Timothy 2:9-10 and 1Peter 3:3-4. A child can understand that. The only ones who can't understand that, are the people that are full of the devil. ha ha ha. Now pull OFF the JEWLERY and save yourself, or wear it and go to hell, its your choice. Only a first class hypocrite would fight what the bible says in those scriptures.

I have news for you. We don't allow Trolling here. So you better change your attitude right now or be gone. The Admin has warned you. Your insults and abrasiveness will not be tolerated here.

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 03:00 PM
I am shocked that you folks know nothing of the late Bishop S. C. Johnson he built the largest Apostolic church in the world during his time in Philadephia, Pa. "The Church of The Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith" he was on the radio worldwide for years 7 nights a week. He died in 61 I think? His works (about 60 churches) fell into disaray after his death. There is a splinter group from DC that still plays his tapes on some radio stations.
The moment Bobby posted I knew his roots. He sounds like the Bishop.

I knew of him but I didn't know he was the missing 13th Apostle........

Rico
06-22-2008, 03:00 PM
Rico and the others just do what i tell you to do. You know i'm saying the truth from the BIBLE

They will be passing out snow cones in Hell before I even think of doing what you say. :lol

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 03:00 PM
Rico and the others just do what i tell you to do. You know i'm saying the truth from the BIBLE

You didn't answer my 2 questions........

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 03:01 PM
Rico Vaughn has already been DEFEATED by me
Rico, let me give you a little information about myself. I'm known as "The man that defies every man". So, when ever your ready for a debate, contact me.
I'm going to smash ReformedDave with the bible
With your pompous, arrogant spirit, you don't seem like someone who reads it very much.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:02 PM
ReformedDave is stuck and CAN'T answer

clgustaveson
06-22-2008, 03:02 PM
I don't hate anything or anyone. You need to come to terms that just because someone disagrees, they hate, bash, propagandize, etc.

I told that man exactly what I have been taught, and what folks have said verbatim around here. It may have been a primer, but I wasn't misrepresenting the UPC. Had I said something like, "It seems to me that the UPC doesn't like black people..." THAT is enciting a riot based on an assumption. I did not say what I did to get an emotional reaction.


There is no cognitive dissonance. I do not NEED to have faith in my own beliefs AND the UPC doctrine in order to be saved. Your comment is exactly why I believe in many many cases Apostolics don't have a clear or true understanding of grace.

Huh?

Look sometimes I look at peoples comments on here and I wonder what kind of hash they were smoking before they started the post. This is sadly one of them.

You don't think walking up to someone and saying... Hey my dad says your an idiot.... that excites someone to say something. Some things are better left unsaid, especially when the judgmental part is implied.

Google cognitive dissonance because I have no clue what that means, seems like you don't know what it is.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:03 PM
Let me help you'll out a little bit. You'll just don't know any better, so let me help you. Rico, if you don't hit hell, Theres not one

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 03:05 PM
Here's a thought, folks.
I wonder if Bobby is trying to get banned? ... (so he can go around and brag about it)

Crazier things have happened.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:05 PM
I say the SAME thing JESUS say, such as(fools, hypocrites, and so on), and you'll say thats a shame. Would you say thats a shame to Jesus. REMEMBER JESUS SAID IT FIRST. AND JESUS IS ALWAY RIGHT

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 03:06 PM
I knew of him but I didn't know he was the missing 13th Apostle........

He said God spoke to him in a man's voice as the Father hath sent me so send I you and made him the Latter day Apostle, Paul laid the foundation and ANOTHER buildeth thereon he was that ANOTHER.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:06 PM
If you don't act like fools, and hypocrites, I won't say the word

Rico
06-22-2008, 03:07 PM
He said God spoke to him in a man's voice as the Father hath sent me so send I you and made him the Latter day Apostle, Paul laid the foundation and ANOTHER buildeth thereon he was that ANOTHER.

Wow. God spoke to him and Branham?

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 03:07 PM
Here's a thought, folks.
I wonder if Bobby is trying to get banned? ... (so he can go around and brag about it)

Crazier things have happened.

No all Johnsonites sound like him.

Sam
06-22-2008, 03:08 PM
...
Watches are jewelry given the above def. as well as any ornament for personal adornment.
...


Watches do have a purpose. They tell us the time. However, any other extra stuff, (rings, bracelets, scarves, neckties, earrings, noserings), are strictly ornamental. Years ago a cloth tied around one's neck had a purpose when it was used for wiping the mouth. Since neckties are no longer used for wiping the mouth, face, nose, etc they serve no useful purpose and are strictly ornamental.

As someone has stated, 1 Peter 3:3-6 does not condemn the combing and styling of hair, the wearing of ornaments, or the wearing of clothing/apparel. Instead it places the emphasis on the inner person and having the adornment of a quiet (calm/peaceful) and gentle spirit. Abraham's wife, Sarah, is given as an example. We are not told how she dressed. 1 Timothy 2:9-10 speaks of a person's real distinguishing characteristics such as moderation and good works in contrast to outward style such as gold, pearls, expensive clothing. In other words, is the person defined by the merely outward secondary things such as clothing and hair styles or by an attitude of loving and serving?

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 03:08 PM
No all Johnsonites sound like him.

I want to grow up to be a major pain (wanted to say something else) like him.

Praxeas
06-22-2008, 03:09 PM
I say the SAME thing JESUS say, such as(fools, hypocrites, and so on), and you'll say thats a shame. Would you say thats a shame to Jesus. REMEMBER JESUS SAID IT FIRST. AND JESUS IS ALWAY RIGHT
You were warned. Jesus also said some would be cast into outer darkness and I am about ready to do that to you.

YOU ARE NOT JESUS.

Praxeas
06-22-2008, 03:09 PM
Watches do have a purpose. They tell us the time. However, any other extra stuff, (rings, bracelets, scarves, neckties, earrings, noserings), are strictly ornamental. Years ago a cloth tied around one's neck had a purpose when it was used for wiping the mouth. Since neckties are no longer used for wiping the mouth, face, nose, etc they serve no useful purpose and are strictly ornamental.

As someone has stated, 1 Peter 3:3-6 does not condemn the combing and styling of hair, the wearing of ornaments, or the wearing of clothing/apparel. Instead it places the emphasis on the inner person and having the adornment of a quiet (calm/peaceful) and gentle spirit. Abraham's wife, Sarah, is given as an example. We are not told how she dressed. 1 Timothy 2:9-10 speaks of a person's real distinguishing characteristics such as moderation and good works in contrast to outward style such as gold, pearls, expensive clothing. In other words, is the person defined by the merely outward secondary things such as clothing and hair styles or by an attitude of loving and serving?
Sam ever thing has a purpose

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:09 PM
Now lets go to the bible. Bible says in 1Corinthians 1:10 That ye ALL speak the SAME thing, and in 1Timothy 1:3 that they teach NO OTHER DOCTRINE. So what I say you suppose to say, and what you say I suppose to say, if we all believed the SAME way. But you'll don't everyone of you have a doctrine that is different then the other

clgustaveson
06-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Watches do have a purpose. They tell us the time. However, any other extra stuff, (rings, bracelets, scarves, neckties, earrings, noserings), are strictly ornamental. Years ago a cloth tied around one's neck had a purpose when it was used for wiping the mouth. Since neckties are no longer used for wiping the mouth, face, nose, etc they serve no useful purpose and are strictly ornamental.


What about those pen necklaces?

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 03:10 PM
No all Johnsonites sound like him.
Now that's what we should all strive to be, an "ite", not a CHRISTian

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:11 PM
And also, i'm not a Johnsonite. I'm a christian. So Steve how about you call me a Christianite. ha ha ha ah

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:12 PM
Johnson said the same thing I say, and the bible says it even so.

Sam
06-22-2008, 03:12 PM
I want to grow up to be a major pain (wanted to say something else) like him.

Do you mean as in the old phrase "pain in the neck" or did you have a somewhat lower opinion of him?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Now, why don't all of you say the SAME THING as 1Corinthians 1:10 tells us to? Bible also says in Ephesians 4:5 One Lord One FAITH One Baptism. So if its only ONE FAITH, and we suppose to speak the SAME thing, why do you all DIFFER

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:15 PM
Just pay attention to what I say Sam, don't let the devil turn you away from what i'm saying. I have bible

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 03:16 PM
Do you mean as in the old phrase "pain in the neck" or did you have a somewhat lower opinion of him?

To quote the King James........."Balaam saddled his"........Naw forget it!

Sam
06-22-2008, 03:16 PM
Since the 1 Peter 3 passage has been referenced, it reminded me of something Timlan posted about 5 months ago. It was an incident that Eld. Marvin Hicks told about. I don't have Tim's permission to quote his post but since it was published on this forum I hope it is OK. Here's the previous post:
-------------------
I don't know how embellished this story was but he has a point. It is really one of the best refutations to those who mindlessly and stupidly Polly-Parrot I Peter 3: 3 to condemn wearing a watch or other jewelry.

Here's the scripture in question:

Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; (KJV)


Hicks told this anecdote many times in campmeeting messages.

After a campmeeting service he preached Hicks said a 12-13 year old boy approached him.

The boy said: "Preacher, do you believe in wearing a wristwatch?"

Hicks told congregations: "Well, he caught me redhanded. I had one on."

After Hicks told the kid "yes son, it's okay to wear a wristwatch", the boy said "well, have I got a scripture for you" and proceeded to tell the camp evangelist off.

After reading 1 Peter 3: 3 about the "wearing of gold" the boy began to lambast Hicks about preaching a campmeeting with a wristwatch on.

Hicks stopped the boy and calmly told him: "Son, read the rest of that verse. The part about 'apparel.'

The boy said "Apparel? What's that ?"

Hicks: "Son, that's your britches. That's the clothes you wear."

(I've pictured this conversation in my mind's eye over the decades ... it must have been hilarious in person.)

Hicks then told the kid: "Son, I'll make a deal with you. You're chewing me out for wearing a wristwatch and your scripture also says 'the wearing of apparel' in the same verse.

"So I'll make a deal with you, son. I'll take my wristwatch off if you'll take your clothes off."

Well, the kid didn't take the camp evangelist up on his offer.

This was some 30 years ago.

Looking on many pentecostal message boards, it seems a good segment of oneness pentecostalism is no less ignorant.

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:17 PM
If you say one thing, and another something different, and some else another thing, that means someone is false, some is wrong. For there can be only ONE thing Ephesians 4:5. So where did you'll go wrong?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:22 PM
Look at the devil using Sam. It says whose adorning let it not be that OUTWARD adorining of plaiting the hair or of PUTTING ON OF GOLD OR OF APPAREL. Let me help you out Sam. Its not talking about Modest APPAREL you FOOL, because the WORD OF GOD SAID ADORN yourself WITH modest APPAREL 1Timothy 2:9 two types of apparel, modest and UNMODEST. the UNMODEST begining CONDEMNED. DO I HAVE TO TEACH YOU?

Bobbys
06-22-2008, 03:24 PM
I think same understands now. You are only called a fool on biblical terms. When you don't believe the WORD OF GOD, you are a FOOL LUKE 24:25

Rico
06-22-2008, 03:24 PM
Look at the devil using Sam. It says whose adorning let it not be that OUTWARD adorining of plaiting the hair or of PUTTING ON OF GOLD OR OF APPAREL. Let me help you out Sam. Its not talking about Modest APPAREL you FOOL, because the WORD OF GOD SAID ADORN yourself WITH modest APPAREL 1Timothy 2:9 two types of apparel, modest and UNMODEST. the UNMODEST begining CONDEMNED. DO I HAVE TO TEACH YOU?

Your time here is going to be so limited, Bobby. Better hurry up and say everything you hope to say quickly.

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 03:24 PM
DO I HAVE TO TEACH YOU?

If you only had the ability, wisdom, and knowledge to..........

Praxeas
06-22-2008, 03:25 PM
Well Jesus said fools, but he also said cast into outer darkness.....there you have it.

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 03:28 PM
And also, i'm not a Johnsonite. I'm a christian. So Steve how about you call me a Christianite. ha ha ha ah

I did not mean to be offensive I respected Bishop Johnson.

Sam
06-22-2008, 03:30 PM
Johnson is a preacher who is now dead with a following of people very much like the Branhamite crowd.

S.C. Johnson was one of many who come along spewing the old tired doctrine that they are the only one right and everybody else is wrong. The late Bishop Johnson had the attitude that "if you don't hear it from my mouth, it ain't God's truth." He built up a pretty large congregation but after his death his followers fought one another on who should be their new pope and they divided and fragmented into groups. It was sorta like a time in the old Roman Catholic church when there were two or three popes and each one claimed infallibility and each on anathemized the others as being false. Some folks still sit around and listen to tapes of him (Bishop Johnson) since nobody else is trustworthy to listen to. I guess in that way they are like the Branhamites, gathering together and listening to old tapes of a dead man.

I've listened to him on the radio back in the nineteen fifties. One of his famous sayings is about passing an automobile accident and telling how a woman had died there and gone to hell. His (in)famous quote was, "How do I know she went to hell? She had on nylons."

Jekyll
06-22-2008, 03:32 PM
Bummmmmmmerrrr!!!!

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 03:34 PM
I feel so sad for these people, keeping their eyes on man rather than God.

Thats some serious delusion right there.

Sam
06-22-2008, 03:38 PM
Johnson had the same athority as the twelve

How did Bishop Johnson baptize in water?
What words did he teach had to be invoked in order to make the ritual effective?
Didn't he teach that unless all three words, Lord Jesus Christ (one name plus two titles) were spoken the baptism was not valid? And didn't he teach that anyone who was baptized using the words "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" or "Lord Jesus" or "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" had to be rebaptized?

Sam
06-22-2008, 03:40 PM
Johnson's doctrine is above God's word? Is that what you are saying, or he was the only man that had the truth? THAT would be false doctrine!

Bishop Johnson's doctrine/teaching IS the Word of God.
When he spoke, God was speaking through him.
If he spoke "ex cathedra" his words had the same validity as anything in the written word.

Sam
06-22-2008, 03:41 PM
Who in the world is this Johnson, and pray tell how we've been saved all these years without him?????

Maybe you haven't

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 03:43 PM
Bishop Johnson had a church in Memphis.

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 03:43 PM
Bummmmmmmerrrr!!!!

Wassamatta Jekyll...did you get your toy taken away from you? :gaga

:toofunny

Rico
06-22-2008, 03:46 PM
Is he gone?

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 03:47 PM
Is he gone?

He was cast into Outer Darkness. :happydance

Rico
06-22-2008, 03:47 PM
He was cast into Outer Darkness. :happydance

lol

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 03:49 PM
Could it be God made Bishop Johnson agressive like he was to reach the multitudes he reached? The headquarters church at one time had 4500 adult members. He had several congregations that had hundreds in them. He baptized 1000's of people. His conversion was from a preacher out from under Bishop R. C. Lawson of New York. "THe Church of our LOrd Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith. Who was a protoge of Bishop G. T. Haywood.

Cindy
06-22-2008, 03:50 PM
That guy was kinda scary.

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 03:58 PM
Did y'all throw Bobbys off??????????? I hope not he was fun.:bliss:bliss

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 04:00 PM
Did y'all throw Bobbys off??????????? I hope not he was fun.
Bobby threw himself off.

The Mrs
06-22-2008, 04:01 PM
Did y'all throw Bobbys off??????????? I hope not he was fun.:bliss:bliss

Yeah, he was for a little bit there...but when he started puttin' us all in the H E double hockey sticks place, it was time to act. :blah

He woulda put you there too before long! :gaga

StMark
06-22-2008, 04:03 PM
I was at a PAW church yesterday.

I have a friend who is PAW we've been friends since we were
in our teens

his church and another PAW church merged. it was a historic
event

SO, I went to the service. I thought I was back in Rome
when the Bishops walked in in their priestly robes.
seems like they lost something when they started getting
into all that ceremonial stuff. I really dislike it

Truthseeker
06-22-2008, 04:16 PM
I was at a PAW church yesterday.

I have a friend who is PAW we've been friends since we were
in our teens

his church and another PAW church merged. it was a historic
event

SO, I went to the service. I thought I was back in Rome
when the Bishops walked in in their priestly robes.
seems like they lost something when they started getting
into all that ceremonial stuff. I really dislike it

Yeah, some take the pastor honor thing way to far. Some even have a pastoral care team made of mostly women.

Cindy
06-22-2008, 04:20 PM
Did y'all throw Bobbys off??????????? I hope not he was fun.:bliss:bliss

:toofunny

Truthseeker
06-22-2008, 04:22 PM
Now let not the people rise up against me, because I am backed with bible from here to Missippi, and well able. And also truthseeker, your talking about Gino Jennings. Jennings is a flase prophet sent by the devil, just like your preacher



:blah

StMark
06-22-2008, 04:24 PM
Yeah, some take the pastor honor thing way to far. Some even have a pastoral care team made of mostly women.


Yes, and let me tell ya'll, yesterday, it was 113 degrees in
the city i was in. We are just coming out of a BAD heatwave!
I got heat exaustion the heat was just untolerable.
The air conditioning was pitiful - there were funeral fans going
everywhere.

You see, the Bishop can have on a $900 robe on and drive
a new lexus but no decent air conditioning ???? PRIORITIES!!

StMark
06-22-2008, 04:27 PM
BTW, did ya'll hear that TD jakes' Daughter Sarah got
married yesterday at Noel Jones' church in Los Angeles.
NJ married them

She married a foot ball star from Texas State university

TRFrance
06-22-2008, 04:32 PM
BTW, did ya'll hear that TD jakes' Daughter Sarah got
married yesterday at Noel Jones' church in Los Angeles.
NJ married them

She married a foot ball star from Texas State university

Actually, they got married at Jakes' church in Dallas.
http://cbs11tv.com/local/sarah.jakes.wedding.2.754013.html
The red carpet was rolled out at a local church, as the pastor of one of the nation's largest churches, walked his daughter down the isle, as some of Dallas and Hollywood's heavy-hitters, celebrated the moment at The Potter's House (http://www.thepottershouse.org/).

The limos lined up, and so did the red carpet guests including Dr. Phil McGraw and his wife Robin, as well as Deion Sanders and his wife, Pilar.

Celebrities like movie mogul Tyler Perry, singer Tyrese and Emmit Smith along with his wife also were on hand for the nuptials. ....

StMark
06-22-2008, 04:34 PM
Actually, they got married at Jakes' church in Dallas.
http://cbs11tv.com/local/sarah.jakes.wedding.2.754013.html
The red carpet was rolled out at a local church, as the pastor of one of the nation's largest churches, walked his daughter down the isle, as some of Dallas and Hollywood's heavy-hitters, celebrated the moment at The Potter's House (http://www.thepottershouse.org/).

The limos lined up, and so did the red carpet guests including Dr. Phil McGraw and his wife Robin, as well as Deion Sanders and his wife, Pilar.

Celebrities like movie mogul Tyler Perry, singer Tyrese and Emmit Smith along with his wife also were on hand for the nuptials. ....


umm,,, I read on another site they had a news wire report
stating that she wanted a private family wedding away from
Dallas.

Maybe she had both ???

Cindy
06-22-2008, 04:44 PM
umm,,, I read on another site they had a news wire report
stating that she wanted a private family wedding away from
Dallas.

Maybe she had both ???

That has been known to happen.

Cindy
06-22-2008, 04:45 PM
Actually, they got married at Jakes' church in Dallas.
http://cbs11tv.com/local/sarah.jakes.wedding.2.754013.html
The red carpet was rolled out at a local church, as the pastor of one of the nation's largest churches, walked his daughter down the isle, as some of Dallas and Hollywood's heavy-hitters, celebrated the moment at The Potter's House (http://www.thepottershouse.org/).

The limos lined up, and so did the red carpet guests including Dr. Phil McGraw and his wife Robin, as well as Deion Sanders and his wife, Pilar.

Celebrities like movie mogul Tyler Perry, singer Tyrese and Emmit Smith along with his wife also were on hand for the nuptials. ....


I guess Oprah couldn't make it.

StMark
06-22-2008, 04:46 PM
That has been known to happen.


Quite a few - you are right

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 04:58 PM
I wish y'all had given Bobbys another chance all them Johnsonites talk like that. Don't misunderstand he would think I was as lost as y'all. The Bishop didn't have any tolerance so Bobbys is only echoing what he was taught.

Cindy
06-22-2008, 04:59 PM
I wish y'all had given Bobbys another chance all them Johnsonites talk like that. Don't misunderstand he would think I was as lost as y'all. The Bishop didn't have any tolerance so Bobbys is only echoing what he was taught.

You just like debating and a sword fight with the Word. :)

StMark
06-22-2008, 05:01 PM
I wish y'all had given Bobbys another chance all them Johnsonites talk like that. Don't misunderstand he would think I was as lost as y'all. The Bishop didn't have any tolerance so Bobbys is only echoing what he was taught.



Bobbys?

Cindy
06-22-2008, 05:07 PM
Bobbys?

You have to read the thread Mark, to know who or what Bobby's is or in this case was. He is gone now into outer darkness courtesy of the Admin team.

:bliss :bliss :bliss :bliss

Praxeas
06-22-2008, 05:19 PM
I wish y'all had given Bobbys another chance all them Johnsonites talk like that. Don't misunderstand he would think I was as lost as y'all. The Bishop didn't have any tolerance so Bobbys is only echoing what he was taught.
He needs to change his attitude and be less abrasive. It does not matter if he was a johnsonite or not.

He can express his doctrinal views without condemning the entire board, calling people devil or hypocrites or fools etc etc

CC1
06-22-2008, 05:50 PM
I just googled the phrase "Over the top" and the very first response that came up was "bobbys"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Imagine that.

Elder Epley, If bobbys is just a reflection of the SC Johnson wax guy in Philly I can see why his church fell apart when he died as it obviously had a foundation based on one man's personality which apparently was to rule through fear and intimidation.

It is amazing how fast people fall away from a church or doctrine when fear and or force of personality is the only thing holding them there in the first place.

Carpenter
06-22-2008, 08:09 PM
hmmm...very interesting.

Carpenter
06-22-2008, 08:26 PM
Sorry, Carp, anyway,



BUMP

The service was awesome, wonderful people until I found out a woman was going to preach. I wasn't able to stay long anyway, I had to take one of my residents to an appointment.

Carpenter
06-22-2008, 08:28 PM
Sorry, Carp, anyway,



BUMP

The true meaning of grace among those claiming those of us who have differences are justified by our own cognitive dissonance?

Sure. In fact, those who coddle to this have a misunderstanding of lots of things...

To be accused of justification by cd, is an insult...they don't understand Grace.

Sister Alvear
06-22-2008, 08:53 PM
we had a woman that preached for us tonight...

Hoovie
06-22-2008, 08:55 PM
Could it be God made Bishop Johnson agressive like he was to reach the multitudes he reached? The headquarters church at one time had 4500 adult members. He had several congregations that had hundreds in them. He baptized 1000's of people. His conversion was from a preacher out from under Bishop R. C. Lawson of New York. "THe Church of our LOrd Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith. Who was a protoge of Bishop G. T. Haywood.

I had a couple questions for bobby if I had not been so late reading th thread. I knew of a Apostolic Church of the Lord Jesus Christ member from Philidephia, PA once... he later came into the UPC with his family.

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 09:02 PM
I wish y'all had given Bobbys another chance all them Johnsonites talk like that. Don't misunderstand he would think I was as lost as y'all. The Bishop didn't have any tolerance so Bobbys is only echoing what he was taught.

Pastor, this guy was not only confrontational but contentious. He enjoyed fighting for the sake of fighting. You are confrontational but TRUTH is the overarching goal. Not for this guy.

mizpeh
06-22-2008, 09:09 PM
I wish y'all had given Bobbys another chance all them Johnsonites talk like that. Don't misunderstand he would think I was as lost as y'all. The Bishop didn't have any tolerance so Bobbys is only echoing what he was taught.

Bro Elpey, do you really think we are ALL lost?

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 09:11 PM
Pastor, this guy was not only confrontational but contentious. He enjoyed fighting for the sake of fighting. You are confrontational but TRUTH is the overarching goal. Not for this guy.

What y'all don't understand is that is all he knows. He sounds like the Bishop I picked it up the first post.

ReformedDave
06-22-2008, 09:12 PM
What y'all don't understand is that is all he knows. He sounds like the Bishop I picked it up the first post.

I would like to think that the 'bishop' was a lot brighter than this clown..........

Hoovie
06-22-2008, 09:12 PM
Bro Elpey, do you really think we are ALL lost?

That is not what Steve is saying!

mizpeh
06-22-2008, 09:16 PM
That is not what Steve is saying!

Yes, he said we were ALL lost!


Where did you worship today?

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 09:18 PM
That is not what Steve is saying!

Thank you. He agreed with me on this subject of jewelry and I thought maybe because we agreed on this subject that I thought he would favor me. However he would think I was lost also.

Rico
06-22-2008, 09:18 PM
Yes, he said we were ALL lost!


Where did you worship today?

No it isn't, Mizpeh. He was saying that this Bobbys fella would lump him into the same lost category as he had lumped the rest of the forum into.

Steve Epley
06-22-2008, 09:19 PM
No it isn't, Mizpeh. He was saying that this Bobbys fella would lump him into the same lost category as he had lumped the rest of the forum into.

And thank you also.

mizpeh
06-22-2008, 09:25 PM
And thank you also.

Sorry, Bro Epley.


Thanks Rico.

Bro-Larry
06-22-2008, 09:33 PM
Pastor Epley can't answer Mizpeh's question for ya'll puttin' words in his mouth. Let Steve answer the question.

Hoovie
06-22-2008, 09:44 PM
Yes, he said we were ALL lost!


Where did you worship today?

We went to Cathedral of Pentecost in Ft Lauderdale this morning and enjoyed it very much. It obvoiusly is a progressive and growing church - very spirited and vibrant.

Bro Elms's B-I-L Daniel Hood preached. I think that means they married sisters. What was these ladies' maiden name, does anyone know?

We considered going to the assembly wher Bro Williams is pastor, but would have been late getting there. We also had a rather lengthy late afternoon service at Boston LobsterFest!

Praxeas
06-23-2008, 12:57 AM
I had a couple questions for bobby if I had not been so late reading th thread. I knew of a Apostolic Church of the Lord Jesus Christ member from Philidephia, PA once... he later came into the UPC with his family.
Bobbys is not banned....he just can't post until he repents:bliss

Truthseeker
06-23-2008, 07:00 AM
Yes, and let me tell ya'll, yesterday, it was 113 degrees in
the city i was in. We are just coming out of a BAD heatwave!
I got heat exaustion the heat was just untolerable.
The air conditioning was pitiful - there were funeral fans going
everywhere.

You see, the Bishop can have on a $900 robe on and drive
a new lexus but no decent air conditioning ???? PRIORITIES!!

some in PAW got them type problems.

Carpenter
06-23-2008, 12:29 PM
We went to Cathedral of Pentecost in Ft Lauderdale this morning and enjoyed it very much. It obvoiusly is a progressive and growing church - very spirited and vibrant.

Bro Elms's B-I-L Daniel Hood preached. I think that means they married sisters. What was these ladies' maiden name, does anyone know?

We considered going to the assembly wher Bro Williams is pastor, but would have been late getting there. We also had a rather lengthy late afternoon service at Boston LobsterFest!

Their maiden name is Hale. Billy Hale is their dad and pastors in Denver, CO. You may remember he had a heart attack a month or so ago. He was back in the pulpit the weekend before last.

...he is a good man indeed and I admire those Elms quite a bit. Some may have the tendency to keep tied to the apron strings hoping for a cushy appointment in a well established church. Not them, they stuggled tremendously and paid their dues when they didn't have to.

Can you tell me what caused you to say they were/are obviously progressive? That is NOT a word I would use to describe the ever so borderline ultraconservative Dannie Hood.

Sept5SavedTeen
06-23-2008, 02:29 PM
That's too bad Bobby is gone... I came to the Truth through Gino Jenning's preaching (Gino Jennings is the guy TruthSeeker thought was Bobby's pastor in Philadelphia, but Bobby later called Gino a devil). It is too bad to see how far from Bishop Johnson's preaching the assembly in Philadelphia, under Bishop Omega's pastorate went. I definitely believe we'll see Johnson in Heaven, which makes him different from Branham. It really is too bad Bobby is gone, I would have liked to ask him a few questions... sure Bobby was offensive, but only sticks and stones break bones, and if he offended someone, they should have just ignored him, but AFF isn't a democracy and as for tolerance of others, this forum does go farther than most others.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Sept5SavedTeen
06-23-2008, 02:41 PM
On the topic of the PAW... the first Apostolic assembly that I ever went to was a PAW assembly in Orlando, FL. I was still in the AG, but I had been invited by a PAW minister and I went. I was vacationing during this time and went in a pair of shorts and a polo. I found the church service a bit strange in that everyone was "shockamooing" and having a wild time and that after two hours there was no preaching. The offering was a "hold-up" style where we weren't let go until $250 was counted up in the offering after tithes. I thought the assembly was a bit strange, and I haven't been to a PAW assembly since- looking back I thank GOD that he did not let that first bad experience keep me away from all Apostolics, because if that were the case, where would I be?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Truthseeker
06-23-2008, 02:57 PM
On the topic of the PAW... the first Apostolic assembly that I ever went to was a PAW assembly in Orlando, FL. I was still in the AG, but I had been invited by a PAW minister and I went. I was vacationing during this time and went in a pair of shorts and a polo. I found the church service a bit strange in that everyone was "shockamooing" and having a wild time and that after two hours there was no preaching. The offering was a "hold-up" style where we weren't let go until $250 was counted up in the offering after tithes. I thought the assembly was a bit strange, and I haven't been to a PAW assembly since- looking back I thank GOD that he did not let that first bad experience keep me away from all Apostolics, because if that were the case, where would I be?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex


OH yeah, they'll count the money as it's given. and give the amt to the leader and if it's not enough then you get hounded.

See the trick is if you plan on giving 20 take 4 fives and that way you can give each of the multiple offerings. :hanky

StMark
06-23-2008, 03:00 PM
On the topic of the PAW... the first Apostolic assembly that I ever went to was a PAW assembly in Orlando, FL. I was still in the AG, but I had been invited by a PAW minister and I went. I was vacationing during this time and went in a pair of shorts and a polo. I found the church service a bit strange in that everyone was "shockamooing" and having a wild time and that after two hours there was no preaching. The offering was a "hold-up" style where we weren't let go until $250 was counted up in the offering after tithes. I thought the assembly was a bit strange, and I haven't been to a PAW assembly since- looking back I thank GOD that he did not let that first bad experience keep me away from all Apostolics, because if that were the case, where would I be?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex


I've seen some down right dirty tricks and things done
in their offering taking too. I think in the days to come,
a lot of these preachers will have to think twice about
using scare tactics and gimmicks. A lot of people have
become leary and the young generation is turned off by it.


I was at a convention once and the Bishop told the congregation
that he was not allowing the choir off the bus to sing Til he got
the amount he asked for. the choir had to sit outside on the bus
Til he gave the cue.

I was a COGIC conference once and they had a $50 line.
everyone in the $50 line would receive a prophecy that night.
I am not kidding.

I could go on and on with this one

Rico
06-23-2008, 03:01 PM
OH yeah, they'll count the money as it's given. and give the amt to the leader and if it's not enough then you get hounded.

See the trick is if you plan on giving 20 take 4 fives and that way you can give each of the multiple offerings. :hanky

:toofunny Yeah, I guess that'd work! :toofunny

Steve Epley
06-23-2008, 03:04 PM
That's too bad Bobby is gone... I came to the Truth through Gino Jenning's preaching (Gino Jennings is the guy TruthSeeker thought was Bobby's pastor in Philadelphia, but Bobby later called Gino a devil). It is too bad to see how far from Bishop Johnson's preaching the assembly in Philadelphia, under Bishop Omega's pastorate went. I definitely believe we'll see Johnson in Heaven, which makes him different from Branham. It really is too bad Bobby is gone, I would have liked to ask him a few questions... sure Bobby was offensive, but only sticks and stones break bones, and if he offended someone, they should have just ignored him, but AFF isn't a democracy and as for tolerance of others, this forum does go farther than most others.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

I have brought Jennings up on the net what would be the difference between him and Bishop Johnson?

Sept5SavedTeen
06-23-2008, 03:11 PM
I have brought Jennings up on the net what would be the difference between him and Bishop Johnson?

Not much in his [Gino's] earlier days. But as time went on he started questioning the canon of Scripture and he and his assembly now accept the Apocrypha and the Book of Jasher as Scripture. Gino was born right after Bishop Johnson died, someone from one of Gino's assemblies told me they believed it was a sign of GOD passing the mantle on. What do you think, Eld. Epley, of Gino from what you've heard from his site or from others, or what you've read, ect?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

StMark
06-23-2008, 03:12 PM
Any of you Philly folk or anyone in the know about the
community there know anything about Bishop Andrew Ford
and the "Ford Memorial Temple church" ?
How 'bout "Bridgegroom Pentecostal church" ?

what's going on there these days?

Steve Epley
06-23-2008, 03:17 PM
Not much in his [Gino's] earlier days. But as time went on he started questioning the canon of Scripture and he and his assembly now accept the Apocrypha and the Book of Jasher as Scripture. Gino was born right after Bishop Johnson died, someone from one of Gino's assemblies told me they believed it was a sign of GOD passing the mantle on. What do you think, Eld. Epley, of Gino from what you've heard from his site or from others, or what you've read, ect?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

If he is questioning the canon of scripture he will wind up just like Shelton's bunch. It seems Godwin and Hunter was someof the very few that made it with the same message with a few minor exceptions.

Sept5SavedTeen
06-23-2008, 03:43 PM
If he is questioning the canon of scripture he will wind up just like Shelton's bunch. It seems Godwin and Hunter was someof the very few that made it with the same message with a few minor exceptions.

Some of the people in Gino's crowds at conventions (viewable thru YouTube) are beginning to resemble the type of people one would see at Shelton/Omega's assembly. I remember back when the people at Gino's assembly were all in solid colors, the headcoverings for the women couldn't even have prints or anything on them, ect... Now those standards have been thrown out.

Would anyone know if Tony Smith (also on YouTube), who pastors in Atlanta and has a similar confrontational style to Gino and Johnson was ever apart of one of Johnson's assemblies? Smith is sabbaterian, but if you've ever heard him speak, he sounds just like Gino and Johnson.

The "separatist" Apostolics, or Apostolics in the inner cities of Philly, NY, the DC area and other places like that are an interesting bunch. I remember when I came in contact with Gino's teaching, I was hit so hard with the realization I was going to hell if I wasn't baptized in JESUS' name... thank GOD for that!

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

StMark
06-23-2008, 03:45 PM
Any of you Philly folk or anyone in the know about the
community there know anything about Bishop Andrew Ford
and the "Ford Memorial Temple church" ?
How 'bout "Bridgegroom Pentecostal church" ?

what's going on there these days?




savedteen, do you know anything about the above?

Sept5SavedTeen
06-23-2008, 03:55 PM
savedteen, do you know anything about the above?

I don't. When I looked them up on google just now, I got directed to trinitarian Pentecostal churches. Care to catch me up to speed on these two groups?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

StMark
06-23-2008, 04:24 PM
I don't. When I looked them up on google just now, I got directed to trinitarian Pentecostal churches. Care to catch me up to speed on these two groups?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex



They are (or were??) oneness Apostolic churches.

Ford Memorial was always known for its great choir.
this church use to be called "highway COC of the apostolic faith.
after the founder died , bishop Ford, the son took over and
I heard he changed a lot of things.

Sept5SavedTeen
06-23-2008, 04:28 PM
They are (or were??) oneness Apostolic churches.

Ford Memorial was always known for its great choir.
this church use to be called "highway COC of the apostolic faith.
after the founder died , bishop Ford, the son took over and
I heard he changed a lot of things.

I think, from what I saw on the website, that the Ford church (named after the bishop, which I was surprised by), is having a COGIC person speak at their convention.
It is weird when PAW and COGIC get together and whatnot, it's like their racial similarity is greater than their doctrinal differences, which ought not be.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

StMark
06-23-2008, 04:31 PM
I think, from what I saw on the website, that the Ford church (named after the bishop, which I was surprised by), is having a COGIC person speak at their convention.
It is weird when PAW and COGIC get together and whatnot, it's like their racial similarity is greater than their doctrinal differences, which ought not be.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex


O yea, it's totally changed. Totally. Everything is kinda blended
together now. Ford Memorial has probably one of the best
church choirs I've ever heard. They can SAAAAAANG!!!!!

Speaking on the topic you mentioned, PAW is having something
called "The Apostolic Manifesto " in Los Angeles this Friday at
Noel Jones. I have Friends in PAW here in CA, and they are going
to have round table discussions with Bishop smith on what they
need to change in the PAW to make it more relevant

TRFrance
06-23-2008, 04:35 PM
Not much in his [Gino's] earlier days. But as time went on he started questioning the canon of Scripture and he and his assembly now accept the Apocrypha and the Book of Jasher as Scripture. Gino was born right after Bishop Johnson died, someone from one of Gino's assemblies told me they believed it was a sign of GOD passing the mantle on.

Amazing that a man can have the Holy Ghost, be strong on Jesus name baptism (as he is) and be so off-base on something like accepting these extra-biblical books as scripture.
I didnt know much about the book before today, but in looking it up it quickly became clear to me why this book was never included in the Holy Bible. Someone posted this on a messge board:

Contradictions To The Bible In Jasher
There are also many contradictions to the Bible in the book of Jasher. Here are just a few…

Jasher 13:5 says that Abram went to the land of Canaan at the age of 50 then back to Haran and back to Canaan at age 75, Genesis 12:4 states that Abram was 75 when he departed Haran.

Jasher 18:9 states that one of the angels tells Abraham that Sarah will have a son, but Gen. 17:16 says that God told Abraham.

Jasher 22:44-45 says the Lord got the idea of presenting Isaac as an offering from Isaac’s boast to Ishmael. We know, of course, that God is sovereign and as it says in Gen. 22:1-2 & 12 that the Lord was testing Abraham.

Genesis 28:5 states that Isaac sent Jacob to Padan-aram unto Laban but Jasher 29:11 says that he fled to the house of Eber and hid there for 14 years.

Jasher 47:9 says Isaac dies, according to the chronology of Jasher, Joseph was in Egypt but in Gen. 35:29 Isaac died before Joseph had his dreams.

Simeon could not be bound in Jasher 51:37 but in Genesis. 42:24 Simeon is bound before their eyes.

More Contradictions
Jasher 51:26-32 -- The brothers tell Joseph (whom they don’t recognize) that they are looking for their brother (him). Genesis 42:6-14.

Jahser 78:12-13 -- Pharaoh proclaims no more straw but same amount of bricks (before Moses goes to Pharaoh.) Exodus 5:1,7-8 says it happened after Moses confronts Pharaoh.

Jasher 80:1 "and at the end of two years the Lord sent Moses to Pharaoh" while Exodus 7:14-15 says, "The Lord said unto Moses get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning.

Jasher 80:2-51 lists these Plagues;

1. Waters into blood (v. 3) / Exodus 7:20

2. Frogs (v. 6) / Exodus 8:6

3. Lice (v. 10) / Exodus 8:17

4. The Lord sent all kinds of beasts into Egypt and destroyed all Egypt ( v.13) / Not in Exodus

5. Fiery serpents, scorpions, mice, weazles, toads (v. 14) / Not in Exodus

6. Flies, hornets, fleas, bugs, gnats (v. 15) / Exodus 8:24

7. All reptiles and winged animals came and grieved the Egyptians (v.16) / Not in Exodus

8. God ordered the Sulanuth from the sea, she had long arms, 10 cubits in length and she went upon the roofs and uncovered the raftering and flooring and stretched forth her arm and removed locks and bolts and opened the houses of Egypt. (v. 19-21) / Not in Exodus

9. Pestilence (v.24) / Exodus 9:3

10. Burning inflammation (v. 27) / Not in Exodus

11. Boils (v. 28) / Exodus 9:10

12. Hail and fire (v. 30-31) / Exodus 9:23

13. Locusts (v. 33) / Exodus 10:13

14. Darkness (v.36) / Exodus 10:22

15. First born killed (v. 43) / Exodus 12:29

Wholly Unbiblical Portions of Jasher
There are also many areas that are completely unbiblical.

In Jasher 42:30-41, Rachel talks to Joseph from the grave. This is of course necromancy and is an abomination unto the Lord (Deuteronomy 18:11-12).

According to 53:18-22 Benjamin used a "map (or chart) of stars" to find Joseph. Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids this. It is an abomination to be "an observer of times" (astrologer).

Judah threatens Joseph 54:1-68 with annulations but Genesis 44:14-34 is a plea for Benjamin’s release.

Chapter 71 of Jasher states that Moses was 18 years old when he left Egypt. (Could this be Rabbinical tradition?) He didn’t go to Midian but to Cush and becomes king (72:34-36) and is king over Cush for forty years (73:2), then he goes to Midian where Reuel puts him in prison for 10 years because Reuel thinks Moses is wanted by the Cushites. In the book of Acts (7:23-30) Stephen, inspired by the Holy Spirit, stated the Moses was in Egypt for 40 Years before going to Midian for another 40 years.

Jasher 81:3-4 claims that the Israelites sojourned in Egypt for 210 years whereas the Scripture says in Exodus 12:40-41 it was 430 years.

Jasher 81:40-41says that all but Pharaoh perished in the Red Sea. Pharaoh thanks the Lord and the Lord sends an angel who casts him upon the land of Ninevah where Pharaoh reigned for a long time. Scripture (Exodus 14:23 & 28) states that all perished.

Jasher 32:1-40 -- Esau comes to harm Jacob but angels of the Lord scare Esau, v.55 Esau fears Jacob. Genesis 33:3 Jacob bows seven times to Esau.

Jasher 43:35 -- Isaac went from Hebron to comfort Jacob, his son, because Joseph is dead (sold). Gen. 35:27-29 Isaac died before Joseph even dreamed his dreams.

Jasher 81:38 -- "And the Waters of the sea were divided into twelve parts…." Exodus 14:22 "And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand and on their left."

From The Author’s Imagination?
There are the areas that seem to come from the imagination of the writer, such as Jasher 7:24-30; This passage says the skins that God made for Adam and his wife went to Enoch after their death, then to Methuselah, then to Noah, then Ham stole them and gave them to Cush. They were then passed to Nimrod who became strong when he put on the "magic" garments. Jasher 27:1-11 says that Esau kills Nimrod and takes Adams skins.

Jasher 36:30-35 -- 120 terrible animals from the wilderness came to the asses of Anan. Their shape was from the middle downward of the children of man, and from their middle upward some the likeness of bears, some keephas with tails behind them from between their shoulders reaching down to earth.

Jasher 61:15 -- Zepho kills beast, half man and half animal, "from the middle upward it resembled a man, and from the middle downward it resembled an animal."

Jasher 67:8-52 -- Balaam, Job, and Reuel in Egypt at the same time. Reuel takes Joseph’s stick and returns to Midian.

Jasher 70:1-33 -- At age 3 Moses puts Pharaoh's crown on his head.

Jasher 73 -- King Moses of Cush raises storks to devour serpents that guard city.

Jasher 77:26-51-- Moses beholds the sapphire stick (67:41) in the garden of Reuel with the name of Lord God on stick. (Adam took stick from Eden then it came to Noah, then to Shem, then to Abraham to Isaac, Jacob took it then in Egypt and he gave it to Joseph. After Joseph died Reuel took it and planted it.)

It is obvious that "The Book Of Jasher" is certainly not inspired by the Lord. I heartily disagree with the those in the introduction of the volume that claim "they find nothing in Jasher that contradicts the Bible. Therefore, I can only conclude that while Jasher is an interesting book to read, the reader must be very discerning as to the truth of all or any of the writings in Jasher.

http://www.godstrueworshippers.org/mod/guestbook/index.php?spam=1

Jermyn Davidson
06-23-2008, 05:38 PM
Could it be God made Bishop Johnson agressive like he was to reach the multitudes he reached? The headquarters church at one time had 4500 adult members. He had several congregations that had hundreds in them. He baptized 1000's of people. His conversion was from a preacher out from under Bishop R. C. Lawson of New York. "THe Church of our LOrd Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith. Who was a protoge of Bishop G. T. Haywood.

As a kid, our church "fellow shipped" with a couple of congregations whose members were like this guy and their Pastor's were really strict. After one service, I remember my Mom telling my Dad something along the lines of, "Elder, we can't have ______ back again. To listen to him, everyone's going to hell except for him!" He was never invited back.

Jermyn Davidson
06-23-2008, 05:46 PM
Our church was really strict, but we at least celebrated Christmas. Interesting thing, I remember very well was my Dad talk about "that cult that don't believe in tv's-- those people are deceived!"

As an adult, that would be the only "standard" that was at least sensible, before the internet came. Now, I have to just be careful about what I do with both.

Sept5SavedTeen
06-23-2008, 05:57 PM
Interesting stuff TRFrance, it helped to put my mind at ease, at least about the Book of Jasher stuff... I had heard Gino accepted it, and I thought it was a wrong move, but I remembered Gino's preaching and I thought, also, how could a man full of the HG and able to preach so capably make a wrong decision on these books he added into the Scriptures. I've also considered writings like the Epistle to the Laodecians and what should be done with it. Could you explain, though, or provide a link for an article that would explain what we should do with the supposed 150 references to the Apocrypha by JESUS and the disciples in the NT?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Hoovie
06-23-2008, 10:14 PM
Their maiden name is Hale. Billy Hale is their dad and pastors in Denver, CO. You may remember he had a heart attack a month or so ago. He was back in the pulpit the weekend before last.

...he is a good man indeed and I admire those Elms quite a bit. Some may have the tendency to keep tied to the apron strings hoping for a cushy appointment in a well established church. Not them, they stuggled tremendously and paid their dues when they didn't have to.

Can you tell me what caused you to say they were/are obviously progressive? That is NOT a word I would use to describe the ever so borderline ultraconservative Dannie Hood.

The church seemed progressive because;

1. of the use of the latest Praise and Worship songs and even incorporated some lighting effects. Most would say they really "Rocked the house" for a Sun morning service.

2. of their willingness to adapt service schedules. They currently have two morning services with Sunday School sandwiched in between, and one Sun nite service a month.

3. they had a "praise dancer" ( :) sort of) Interpretive dance with costume lights and music.

4. I would not try to quote Bro Elms, but he said something to the effect that he himself had spearheaded the "MEDIA MISSIONS" effort early on at the state level, and some had been critical of the way changing times are requiring us to change some methods.

It seemed to me that in his following message the Bro (in law) Hood was very careful to define what media missions was looking to grow... radio and internet.

Having said that, I should say both men appeared to be great leaders and we enjoyed the three hour service (Sunday school and the later service)

TRFrance
06-24-2008, 06:00 AM
Could you explain, though, or provide a link for an article that would explain what we should do with the supposed 150 references to the Apocrypha by JESUS and the disciples in the NT?


I have never heard anything about that. I have heard/read that they often quoted from the Septuagint, which is simply a Greek version of the OT text. But thats not a problem in itself.

I could be mistaken, but I'm 99.9% sure that none of the quotes I've seen in the NT came from the Apocrypha. They all came from the OT, apparently from the Septuagint version.

The only one exception is where Jude (v 14-15) quotes from Enoch.
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
But The book of Enoch, however, is not one of the books contained in what we generally refer to as The Apocrypha.

Wikipedia, book of Enoch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

CC1
06-24-2008, 07:20 AM
I enjoy the book of Ether. Oh....wait.....that is in the Book of Mormon.......nevermind.

Carpenter
06-24-2008, 07:50 AM
Their maiden name is Hale. Billy Hale is their dad and pastors in Denver, CO. You may remember he had a heart attack a month or so ago. He was back in the pulpit the weekend before last.

...he is a good man indeed and I admire those Elms quite a bit. Some may have the tendency to keep tied to the apron strings hoping for a cushy appointment in a well established church. Not them, they stuggled tremendously and paid their dues when they didn't have to.

Can you tell me what caused you to say they were/are obviously progressive? That is NOT a word I would use to describe the ever so borderline ultraconservative Dannie Hood.

Bump for Hoover...or whoever else...

Hoovie
06-24-2008, 07:59 AM
Bump for Hoover...or whoever else...

I answered three posts prior your bump! :)

Carpenter
06-24-2008, 09:53 AM
I answered three posts prior your bump! :)

One is a good leader, one is a good evangelist.