The Trouble With Patience

[Nahum]

Warning! You may want to turn your head if this is too painful to look at.

Galatians 5:22 states that one of the end results of the Spirit's work in us will be the addition of longsuffering. Longsuffering is a calmer, gentler synonym of that other word we're apt to run from - patience.

Now patience can be trying, frustrating and at times maddening to receive.
It is through the trying of our faith that patience is birthed. I'm sure you have heard that "tribulation worketh patience"?

But is patience always a virtue? Can patience lead into a general apathy of the soul? Do we confuse apathy and patience in Pentecost?

It would seem to me that some things can't wait. Perhaps this thread will help to identify which areas of life we need to exercise patience in and which areas require immediate change.

Specifically, let's consider the church.

What areas need reform, but not necessarily immediate reform?
What areas need immediate reform?

I will wait impatiently for your response. :dunno

[Neck]

Warning! You may want to turn your head if this is too painful to look at.

Galatians 5:22 states that one of the end results of the Spirit's work in us will be the addition of longsuffering. Longsuffering is a calmer, gentler synonym of that other word we're apt to run from - patience.

Now patience can be trying, frustrating and at times maddening to receive.
It is through the trying of our faith that patience is birthed. I'm sure you have heard that "tribulation worketh patience"?

But is patience always a virtue? Can patience lead into a general apathy of the soul? Do we confuse apathy and patience in Pentecost?

It would seem to me that some things can't wait. Perhaps this thread will help to identify which areas of life we need to exercise patience in and which areas require immediate change.

Specifically, let's consider the church.

What areas need reform, but not necessarily immediate reform?
What areas need immediate reform?

I will wait impatiently for your response. :dunno

One area that needs reform is the local church. Specificaly the local Church board. Where the same old good old boys sit on the board year after year.

Even though they are voted on. It is more like a supreme court appointment.

Put some new skin in the game.

Maybe just maybe the family business will grow.

Nathan Eckstadt

[Nahum]

One area that needs reform is the local church. Specificaly the local Church board. Where the same old good old boys sit on the board year after year.

Even though they are voted on. It is more like a supreme court appointment.

Put some new skin in the game.

Maybe just maybe the family business will grow.

Nathan Eckstadt

I was thinking broader, bigger, and in terms of the general movement, but that's okay.

The church board often is static (pardon the pun) due to unwillingess. And when we consider the average church in the UPC has around 75 members, it's obvious the pool of potential candidates is small. In this environment it becomes needful to develop potential replacements.

Another thing to consider is that appointments are normally yearly, and need to be ratified by the voting body of any incorporated assembly.

I have seen the extreme you allude to here. Tell me, is that pastoral patience - or apathy

[Neck]

I was thinking broader, bigger, and in terms of the general movement, but that's okay.

The church board often is static (pardon the pun) due to unwillingess. And when we consider the average church in the UPC has around 75 members, it's obvious the pool of potential candidates is small. In this environment it becomes needful to develop potential replacements.

Another thing to consider is that appointments are normally yearly, and need to be ratified by the voting body of any incorporated assembly.

I have seen the extreme you allude to here. Tell me, is that pastoral patience - or apathy

My opinion would be that it is the spirit of the church being stuck in operational apathy.

[Nahum]

My opinion would be that it is the spirit of the church being stuck in operational apathy.

Apathy here would be found in the idea that its easier to maintan the satus quo than go through the trouble of equipping and training other qualified candidates. This sort of waiting is crippling.

I do believe that each church needs qualified elders (seniors) to assist in business matters. Experience goes a long way in saving financial heartache.

[Neck]

Warning! You may want to turn your head if this is too painful to look at.

Galatians 5:22 states that one of the end results of the Spirit's work in us will be the addition of longsuffering. Longsuffering is a calmer, gentler synonym of that other word we're apt to run from - patience.

Now patience can be trying, frustrating and at times maddening to receive.
It is through the trying of our faith that patience is birthed. I'm sure you have heard that "tribulation worketh patience"?

But is patience always a virtue? Can patience lead into a general apathy of the soul? Do we confuse apathy and patience in Pentecost?

It would seem to me that some things can't wait. Perhaps this thread will help to identify which areas of life we need to exercise patience in and which areas require immediate change.

Specifically, let's consider the church.

What areas need reform, but not necessarily immediate reform?
What areas need immediate reform?

I will wait impatiently for your response. :dunno

I know this is not a reform in the church such as, Allowing woman to cut their hair, wear pants kind of good.

I think the pulpit needs to be reformed.

I am tired of ministers stepping into the pulpit, full of stories, ice breakers, words they just wrote down from TD Jakes on TBN Sunday morning.

Man, Get on your knee's and be relevant for the times and be ontime with a fresh annointing.

Otherwise get out of the pulpit before God has to push you out.

People are hungry for good redeeming, soul searching, practical living and application ministry.

Not how much you know on the doctrinal stances and beliefs.

Turn around and let your back face the choir.

Your burden is to preach to the one sinner who may have stepped in off the steet to meet God at the doorstep of Eternity.

I vote for reforming the office of the Man of God!

[Neck]

Apathy here would be found in the idea that its easier to maintan the satus quo than go through the trouble of equipping and training other qualified candidates. This sort of waiting is crippling.

I do believe that each church needs qualified elders (seniors) to assist in business matters. Experience goes a long way in saving financial heartache.

Finances is onething. Open up the board to one more member. Have this be a junior member to the board. To keep things fresh and not stale.

Nathan Eckstadt

[Nahum]

I know this is not a reform in the church such as, Allowing woman to cut their hair, wear pants kind of good.

I think the pulpit needs to be reformed.

I am tired of ministers stepping into the pulpit, full of stories, ice breakers, words they just wrote down from TD Jakes on TBN Sunday morning.

Man, Get on your knee's and be relevant for the times and be ontime with a fresh annointing.

Otherwise get out of the pulpit before God has to push you out.

People are hungry for good redeeming, soul searching, practical living and application ministry.

Not how much you know on the doctrinal stances and beliefs.

Turn around and let your back face the choir.

Your burden is to preach to the one sinner who may have stepped in off the steet to meet God at the doorstep of Eternity.

I vote for reforming the office of the Man of God!

You are right, my intent was not to debate standards.

[Felicity]

You are right, my intent was not to debate standards.Thank goodness for that! :heeheehee

[Truly Blessed]

One thing I mentioned in my message this morning and which I feel must be done without delay is that pastors must reclaim their pulpits for God. They must hear from God and preach the Word without fear or favor instead of what they think the congregation wants to hear.

[Nahum]

One thing I mentioned in my message this morning and which I feel must be done without delay is that pastors must reclaim their pulpits for God. They must hear from God and preach the Word without fear or favor instead of what they think the congregation wants to hear.

Sounds good!

The problem is that it has become very hard to build a church that way. We pastors are forced to tiptoe through the tulips so as not to offend anyone. The church has become the most pc place in America.

That's why people say if you're ultra-conservative your church won't be large. People don't want to give up any personal liberties. I personally don't believe being conservative will kill church growth. I just think it adds all sorts of issues mainline denominations don't deal with.

Some choose social acceptance and larger crowds over pulpit freedom. I guess they feel the need to protect their pocketbooks?!

[Nahum]

1. I would like to see us effect real reform within our missions structure.

With the modernization of the world, our missions focus needs to be consolidated and streamlined. Home Missions and Foriegn Missions should become "World Missions".

Combine the resources and budget for each area. Let home missionaries raise
funds just like foreign missionaries do. This alone would increase our success rate stateside dramatically.

[Ferd]

1. I would like to see us effect real reform within our missions structure.

With the modernization of the world, our missions focus needs to be consolidated and streamlined. Home Missions and Foriegn Missions should become "World Missions".

Combine the resources and budget for each area. Let home missionaries raise
funds just like foreign missionaries do. This alone would increase our success rate stateside dramatically.

I hate the way we have missionaries raise money. They have to run around begging for money, then they get on the missions field, and about the time they really get things established, we make them come back statside to do it all over again. I dont know what would be better but there has to be a better way.

[Ferd]

I would like to see the UPCI change some things about its structure. It was formed as a minsterial fellowship. we are becoming more and more a stratified denomination.

I for one would like to see the UPCI move back to its roots to some degree. The individual church should be tops and the UPCI more a fellowship of ministers with a lot less hand wringing about what the guy across the continent is doing.

[Nahum]

I would like to see the UPCI change some things about its structure. It was formed as a minsterial fellowship. we are becoming more and more a stratified denomination.

I for one would like to see the UPCI move back to its roots to some degree. The individual church should be tops and the UPCI more a fellowship of ministers with a lot less hand wringing about what the guy across the continent is doing.


I totally agree. I have heard often that the UPC is just a fellowship of ministers. Try telling that to any of the nationally elected officials.

They view the organization as all-encompassing: churches, pastors, evangelists - the whole enchilada.

[rrford]

1. I would like to see us effect real reform within our missions structure.

With the modernization of the world, our missions focus needs to be consolidated and streamlined. Home Missions and Foriegn Missions should become "World Missions".

Combine the resources and budget for each area. Let home missionaries raise
funds just like foreign missionaries do. This alone would increase our success rate stateside dramatically.

On a District level, in some Districts, the Home Missionary can solicit funds. But I have always advocated a PIM approach for Home Missionaries.

[Nahum]

I hate the way we have missionaries raise money. They have to run around begging for money, then they get on the missions field, and about the time they really get things established, we make them come back statside to do it all over again. I dont know what would be better but there has to be a better way.

I agree that our present process for fund-raising isn't the greatest, but what to do? If people aren't burdened enough to give without all of the running around, presentation of a burden becomes necessary.

I have a friend (missionary to Mexico) whose kids hate the running around part. It embarasses them. They would hate to hear it called begging.

[Nahum]

On a District level, in some Districts, the Home Missionary can solicit funds. But I have always advocated a PIM approach for Home Missionaries.

Metro-missionaries only?

[Ferd]

I think we should rethink the whole thing. I dont like PIM at all. I think we need to move toward setting up endowments that generate money.

I know this would be massive and I dont think there is a chance in the world of it happening but thats my 2 cents worth.

[Ferd]

I agree that our present process for fund-raising isn't the greatest, but what to do? If people aren't burdened enough to give without all of the running around, presentation of a burden becomes necessary.

I have a friend (missionary to Mexico) whose kids hate the running around part. It embarasses them. They would hate to hear it called begging.

Well, endowment is my prefered method. second would be to have missionary evangelists working for the ORG that is full time traveling rasing money for Missions dept.

Then set up budgets for each country, let the budget for that country be the rule, then place missionaries where they are fit the budget/fill the need.

this is SUPER simplistic, but it is far better than the current methodology.

[Nahum]

Well, endowment is my prefered method. second would be to have missionary evangelists working for the ORG that is full time traveling rasing money for Missions dept.

Then set up budgets for each country, let the budget for that country be the rule, then place missionaries where they are fit the budget/fill the need.

this is SUPER simplistic, but it is far better than the current methodology.


Ferd, define endowment please.

[Truly Blessed]

I spent 23 years in the UPCI, 8 years as a Missionary, and another 4 years as a District Foreign Missions Director. I have spent 10 years in another organization that is the oldest onesness organization in Canada going back to 1921 and their mindset was just what you are advocating, a fellowship of churches and ministers.

My personal opinion is that in spite of the top heavy aspect of the UPCI it is far better as a centralized focused organization then it would be as just a fellowship of ministers. There is amazing strength to accomplish great things for God when churches and pastors are mobilized by a common cause such as their message, and its missions program.

While a fellowship of ministers and churches sounds great, I don't think it works well in reality. Any group that has followed this path hasn't experienced much growth from what I have observed.

I was District Leader for two years in the group I'm with. During that time the number of churches in our district declined because the only association with ACOP was the pastor. When some churches voted in non ACOP pastors the new pastor tended to fellowship with whatever group he was associated with rather than with us.

I have to say that I never minded deputation when we were missionaries. I found it invigorating and encouraging to be back in North America where I could share my vision and burden in person. We always felt that it was a privilege to spend time with pastors and considered travel a great social and educational experience for our family.

[rrford]

Metro-missionaries only?

No. The District where I served as HM Secretary actually financially supported Home Missionaries and advocated them raising funds personally.

[rrford]

Well, endowment is my prefered method. second would be to have missionary evangelists working for the ORG that is full time traveling rasing money for Missions dept.

Then set up budgets for each country, let the budget for that country be the rule, then place missionaries where they are fit the budget/fill the need.

this is SUPER simplistic, but it is far better than the current methodology.

Or we could simply fulfill the original goal of Foreign Missions. That would be to send a Missionary; let him evangelize; let him then train leadership; let those leaders take over; let the Missionary go somewhere else.

Seems we have a US political approach tro Foreign works. "They can't survive without us." Reckon we may never know.

[Nahum]

No. The District where I served as HM Secretary actually financially supported Home Missionaries and advocated them raising funds personally.

That's how it should be. Do the funds filter through the district, or go straight to the missionary?

[rrford]

I spent 23 years in the UPCI, 8 years as a Missionary, and another 4 years as a District Foreign Missions Director. I have spent 10 years in another organization that is the oldest onesness organization in Canada going back to 1921 and their mindset was just what you are advocating, a fellowship of churches and ministers.

My personal opinion is that in spite of the top heavy aspect of the UPCI it is far better as a centralized focused organization then it would be as just a fellowship of ministers. There is amazing strength to accomplish great things for God when churches and pastors are mobilized by a common cause such as their message, and its missions program.

While a fellowship of ministers and churches sounds great, I don't think it works well in reality. Any group that has followed this path hasn't experienced much growth from what I have observed.

I was District Leader for two years in the group I'm with. During that time the number of churches in our district declined because the only association with ACOP was the pastor. When some churches voted in non ACOP pastors the new pastor tended to fellowship with whatever group he was associated with rather than with us.

I have to say that I never minded deputation when we were missionaries. I found it invigorating and encouraging to be back in North America where I could share my vision and burden in person. We always felt that it was a privilege to spend time with pastors and considered travel a great social and educational experience for our family.

Great post TB. Thanks for an "inside" perspective.

[Nahum]

Or we could simply fulfill the original goal of Foreign Missions. That would be to send a Missionary; let him evangelize; let him then train leadership; let those leaders take over; let the Missionary go somewhere else.

Seems we have a US political approach tro Foreign works. "They can't survive without us." Reckon we may never know.


OUCHEEEWOWOW! :beatdeadhorse

So true. I just wasn't brave enough to say it. :ty

[Ferd]

Ferd, define endowment please.

Like colleges do. you put money in a fund and use the intrest gained. all new money goes into the fund thus year by year the amount you can use grows as well.

you can invest the funds in many different ways from real estate to Tbills. The arguement against it is it turns the church into a business. but we are competing with everyone else and they have hospitals and universities (real ones)

[rrford]

That's how it should be. Do the funds filter through the district, or go straight to the missionary?

Obviously it was preferred that they went through the District as far as individual support. There was no deduction from what was sent. 100% went to the Missionary.

Also, the percentage of CFC that stayed in the District was used primarily to support Home Missionaries. At one time we had 4 or 5 men receiving between $400-$1200 per month for a year at a time. After that year they could re-apply for further support.

[rrford]

Like colleges do. you put money in a fund and use the intrest gained. all new money goes into the fund thus year by year the amount you can use grows as well.

you can invest the funds in many different ways from real estate to Tbills. The arguement against it is it turns the church into a business. but we are competing with everyone else and they have hospitals and universities (real ones)

The ONLY way this would be successful is to let someone OUTSIDE of the UPCI handle the investments. We do not need to do this in-house.

[Nahum]

Like colleges do. you put money in a fund and use the intrest gained. all new money goes into the fund thus year by year the amount you can use grows as well.

you can invest the funds in many different ways from real estate to Tbills. The arguement against it is it turns the church into a business. but we are competing with everyone else and they have hospitals and universities (real ones)

We have a Stewardship department. Is this something you would advocate they handle?

[Ferd]

I spent 23 years in the UPCI, 8 years as a Missionary, and another 4 years as a District Foreign Missions Director. I have spent 10 years in another organization that is the oldest onesness organization in Canada going back to 1921 and their mindset was just what you are advocating, a fellowship of churches and ministers.

My personal opinion is that in spite of the top heavy aspect of the UPCI it is far better as a centralized focused organization then it would be as just a fellowship of ministers. There is amazing strength to accomplish great things for God when churches and pastors are mobilized by a common cause such as their message, and its missions program.

While a fellowship of ministers and churches sounds great, I don't think it works well in reality. Any group that has followed this path hasn't experienced much growth from what I have observed.

I was District Leader for two years in the group I'm with. During that time the number of churches in our district declined because the only association with ACOP was the pastor. When some churches voted in non ACOP pastors the new pastor tended to fellowship with whatever group he was associated with rather than with us.

I have to say that I never minded deputation when we were missionaries. I found it invigorating and encouraging to be back in North America where I could share my vision and burden in person. We always felt that it was a privilege to spend time with pastors and considered travel a great social and educational experience for our family.


my assumptions may be completely wrong. thanks for the balance.

For the UPCI to be more conneted and to opporate as a real organziation, we need a "coming to Jesus meeting" we have too many groups with vastly different agendas.

[Ferd]

Or we could simply fulfill the original goal of Foreign Missions. That would be to send a Missionary; let him evangelize; let him then train leadership; let those leaders take over; let the Missionary go somewhere else.

Seems we have a US political approach tro Foreign works. "They can't survive without us." Reckon we may never know.

you know we are both talking about taking away someone's toys right?

[Ferd]

The ONLY way this would be successful is to let someone OUTSIDE of the UPCI handle the investments. We do not need to do this in-house.



you might be right. I know just about every other denomination has some form of this in place that works well.

there are lots of issues that would have to be worked out, like who gets to control the money.... but what we are doing has had limited success.

[Ferd]

We have a Stewardship department. Is this something you would advocate they handle?

LOL! PP, im a big idea guy. the details would need to be handled by someone else.

[rrford]

We have a Stewardship department. Is this something you would advocate they handle?

NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

[Nahum]

Obviously it was preferred that they went through the District as far as individual support. There was no deduction from what was sent. 100% went to the Missionary.

Also, the percentage of CFC that stayed in the District was used primarily to support Home Missionaries. At one time we had 4 or 5 men receiving between $400-$1200 per month for a year at a time. After that year they could re-apply for further support.

In Illinois the support is incredible. I actually received calls asking me to apply for financial aid. When a sister church gave us a huge offering we worked out a deal to filter it through the district.

I am in the process of regifting that money back to the district.

That church made a wise investment and because of it, our church plant survived. Their sacrificial giving made a huge difference.

I often give monies (outside of our mechanisims) to specific home missionaries and foreign missionaries that I feel are hungry and giving it all they've got.

I despise the idea that a man can steal 30-40 saints, open a building up across town, and then fly under the home missions flag. I won't support it.

[Nahum]

NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Why not? :dunno

Isn't that the whole idea of a Stewardship department?

[rrford]

you know we are both talking about taking away someone's toys right?

"When I was a child I spake as a child, I understood as a chuild, I thought as a child. But when I became a MAN I put away childish things."

Notice the progression: As a child one speaks without understanding or thinking. In time there may be a modicum of understanding based upon experience and observation but eventually thought develops and then the process should be reversed.

In other words, at maturity one thinks until they understand. Then, and only then, do they speak.

It is time to move beyond the teenage years of Foreign Missions into adulthood. Adults allow other folks to mature and then live on their own with background support only.

[rrford]

Why not? :dunno

Isn't that the whole idea of a Stewardship department?

It is the idea of course. BUt then again so is good stewardship. I personally would like to see a good track record of monies invested and returns from our Stewardship dept. before such an unudertaking in-house.

I have a feeling that it would actually cost less to let an outside entity handle it. As well as covering the ethical side of the issue.

[Ferd]

"When I was a child I spake as a child, I understood as a chuild, I thought as a child. But when I became a MAN I put away childish things."

Notice the progression: As a child one speaks without understanding or thinking. In time there may be a modicum of understanding based upon experience and observation but eventually thought develops and then the process should be reversed.

In other words, at maturity one thinks until they understand. Then, and only then, do they speak.

It is time to move beyond the teenage years of Foreign Missions into adulthood. Adults allow other folks to mature and then live on their own with background support only.


you know we could use Burma as a model. I dont know if we ever actually went in there but Brother Bui who is from there, started that work by himself and it has flurished with very little help.

I think you are on to something. Spending more time finding and teaching workers from some country, then supporting them is far more effective than what we are doing now.

[Nahum]

It is the idea of course. BUt then again so is good stewardship. I personally would like to see a good track record of monies invested and returns from our Stewardship dept. before such an unudertaking in-house.

I have a feeling that it would actually cost less to let an outside entity handle it. As well as covering the ethical side of the issue.

Okay, I'll confess I am shocked at your level of honesty. But I agree.:highfive

Hey, everyone else is outsourcing, why not us?

[Nahum]

LOL! PP, im a big idea guy. the details would need to be handled by someone else.

Well, the purpose of this thread was to incite "ideas". I like the way you think Bro. Your ideas are just as good as some of the lame-brained stuff I've seen eminating from..... well, never mind.

[rrford]

Okay, I'll confess I am shocked at your level of honesty. But I agree.:highfive

Hey, everyone else is outsourcing, why not us?

In all honesty, whether I am honest or not does not change the situation. It is what it is. I would prefer that more would be honest in discussion. Without that level of discussion critical change will never take place.

[Nahum]

2. I would like to see a more stringent licensing process implemented.

I think it would do us good to limit the number of times men can come in and out of the organization. I think there should be minimum education requirements and/or testing. I also think we should rethink our anti-restoration attitude for ministers.

[rrford]

2. I would like to see a more stringent licensing process implemented.

I think it would do us good to limit the number of times men can come in and out of the organization. I think there should be minimum education requirements and/or testing. I also think we should rethink our anti-restoration attitude for ministers.

For the most part I agree. especially on the licensing. I would also like to see continuing education be required.

As for the restoration part, we probably are not toally on the same page with that one.

[Esther]

2. I would like to see a more stringent licensing process implemented.

I think it would do us good to limit the number of times men can come in and out of the organization. I think there should be minimum education requirements and/or testing. I also think we should rethink our anti-restoration attitude for ministers.

I guess you prefer a man made minister instead of a God given talent where education really isn't an issue, if you talk to Peter he may can help you understand how an unlearned fisherman could actually have the keys to the Kingdom.

This is what is wrong with the organization now. TOO MANY RULES!!!

[Esther]

For the most part I agree. especially on the licensing. I would also like to see continuing education be required.

As for the restoration part, we probably are not toally on the same page with that one.

Not everyone can afford continuing education, no matter how nice it may be.

Then why should they be taught someone's personal opinions???

If just Bible was being taught and history of it, I agree, IF they can afford it.

[rrford]

I guess you prefer a man made minister instead of a God given talent where education really isn't an issue, if you talk to Peter he may can help you understand how an unlearned fisherman could actually have the keys to the Kingdom.

This is what is wrong with the organization now. TOO MANY RULES!!!

Esther, I think you missed his point entirely. It is not the Simon's that there is an issue with. It is those that are licensed that have no idea what they are preaching is not true.

Minimum education deos not mean college degree; it does mean the organization should supply education that is required before a man can be licensed or advance in licensing.

[rrford]

Not everyone can afford continuing education, no matter how nice it may be.

Then why should they be taught someone's personal opinions???

If just Bible was being taught and history of it, I agree, IF they can afford it.

Again, continuing education provided by the organization is wehat I am speaking of.

[Ferd]

I guess you prefer a man made minister instead of a God given talent where education really isn't an issue, if you talk to Peter he may can help you understand how an unlearned fisherman could actually have the keys to the Kingdom.

This is what is wrong with the organization now. TOO MANY RULES!!!

i think you are missing the point. young guys coming up have no excuse. the "I dont need a degree to preach" mentality is as backwards as you can get.

[Nahum]

Not everyone can afford continuing education, no matter how nice it may be.

Then why should they be taught someone's personal opinions???

If just Bible was being taught and history of it, I agree, IF they can afford it.

Esther, nowadays ALMOST anyone can afford it. The question is, do they see the need for it? There are things that some are never taught that have nothing to do with opinion.

It really riled me when I enrolled at Gateway and my first classes were Basic Bible Doctrine, and Simple Bible Study methods. I was insulted. But looking back I'm glad they offered those classes. There were some students who flunked.

They were pastors kids.

[rrford]

Esther, nowadays ALMOST anyone can afford it. The question is, do they see the need for it? There are things that some are never taught that have nothing to do with opinion.

It really riled me when I enrolled at Gateway and my first classes were Basic Bible Doctrine, and Simple Bible Study methods. I was insulted. But looking back I'm glad they offered those classes. There were some students who flunked.

They were pastors kids.

I could repsond to this post but will not. Let me say though that your comments are dead on and sad, to say the least.

[Nahum]

BTW, Simon Peter was educated. He spent three and a half years learning from the greatest mind in history. Before Jesus his usefulness was limited to fishing. After Jesus ascension, his usefulness expanded greatly. This was a product of two things:

1. A constant closeness to the Master and His Word.
2. The impartation of the Holy Ghost.

Both were necessary for him to become the great preacher at Pentecost.

[Esther]

Esther, nowadays ALMOST anyone can afford it. The question is, do they see the need for it? There are things that some are never taught that have nothing to do with opinion.

It really riled me when I enrolled at Gateway and my first classes were Basic Bible Doctrine, and Simple Bible Study methods. I was insulted. But looking back I'm glad they offered those classes. There were some students who flunked.

They were pastors kids.

I personally love learning and would love to take Bible courses.

However, I have heard that a particular Bible College taught AGAINST the Gifts of the Spirit.

I am sorry I am not for people teaching their personal agenda's to young people.

And as to our young people not knowing the Word, I agree with you.

And teaching scriptures and history I am all for, but NOT as required.

T. W. Barnes didn't go to Bible College and I don't know anyone who could top him.

[Esther]

BTW, Simon Peter was educated. He spent three and a half years learning from the greatest mind in history. Before Jesus his usefulness was limited to fishing. After Jesus ascension, his usefulness expanded greatly. This was a product of two things:

1. A constant closeness to the master and His Word.
2. The impartation of the Holy Ghost.

Both were necessary for him to become the great preacher at Pentecost.

This is the main thing and all you need. All else is a side benefit, IMO.

[Esther]

i think you are missing the point. young guys coming up have no excuse. the "I dont need a degree to preach" mentality is as backwards as you can get.

Sorry I disagree with you on that.

[rrford]

I personally love learning and would love to take Bible courses.

However, I have heard that a particular Bible College taught AGAINST the Gifts of the Spirit.

I am sorry I am not for people teaching their personal agenda's to young people.

And as to our young people not knowing the Word, I agree with you.

And teaching scriptures and history I am all for, but NOT as required.

T. W. Barnes didn't go to Bible College and I don't know anyone who could top him.


But as far as I know T.W. Barnes never negated the need for education and did not stop folks from going to Bible College.

Esther, there will always be folks that are the exception to the rule. Those are not the ones who need the education. It is the masses that are not the exception. But in order to be fair and balanced all should receive the education.

[rrford]

This is the main thing and all you need. All else is a side benefit, IMO.

But Esther, in all honesty, if that is all one has how do they run the business side of the church?

WHile I understand your view I imagine there are some men out that fit your two criteria yet you would not let them be your pastor. JMHO.

[RevDWW]

I would like to see the UPCI change some things about its structure. It was formed as a minsterial fellowship. we are becoming more and more a stratified denomination.

I for one would like to see the UPCI move back to its roots to some degree. The individual church should be tops and the UPCI more a fellowship of ministers with a lot less hand wringing about what the guy across the continent is doing.

It's probably more about the guy across town.

When a guy worries about the money more than the message it's time to take a break from ministry. If you are worried the message you preach will effect your offerings, get a job outside the church and support yourself, then it won't be a factor.

[Ferd]

It's probably more about the guy across town.

When a guy worries about the money more than the message it's time to take a break from ministry. If you are worried the message you preach will effect your offerings, get a job outside the church and support yourself, then it won't be a factor.

Bro, we have guys on the west coast so worried about what the rest of the UPCI is doing..... on the other side of the continent, that they are about to break the fellowship in half. trust me, the UPCIs big issue isnt the conflict between the guy at "grace" and the guy at "first church"


but what do you know, your pastor doesnt allow compitition! (sorry I couldnt resist. I think your pastor has it right)

[RevDWW]

2. I would like to see a more stringent licensing process implemented.

I think it would do us good to limit the number of times men can come in and out of the organization. I think there should be minimum education requirements and/or testing. I also think we should rethink our anti-restoration attitude for ministers.

And perhaps they should have more than the local Pastors endorsment. Maybe 3 to 6 references other than Pastor. Two others from the local church, two from outside of church jobs, two from other district sources.

And maybe even a good background check.

[Advocate]

But Esther, in all honesty, if that is all one has how do they run the business side of the church?

WHile I understand your view I imagine there are some men out that fit your two criteria yet you would not let them be your pastor. JMHO.

There are many successful and good businessmen and businesswomen who do not have the kinds of education that some seem to feel is so necessary.

Pastors are qualified by experience with God, and not with Bible school or other education.

Education is good, but education neither prevents failure, nor guarentees success. The worst thing about this recent movement to more and more education is that Bible schools often have environments that actually work against spirituality. That is not a pleasant idea, and it is not necessary but it has often been found true.

It seems like, in the end, people are on their own and need to take their chances or heaven help us, pray in order to wisely elect leadership.

A man's Bible school certificate or even his baccalaureate or additional degrees would not be high on my list of criteria, if I were looking for help in the church, or even a successor. I have seen too many proud men sporting degrees who have scarce knowledge of spiritual things. There are plenty of organizational men willing to meet the criteria of their brethren but seem to simply echo popular ideas, and show no anointing of their own. It is really a cause for concern. I do not think that education plays a large part in our most pressing issues today.

Others will feel differently though and it is nice to be able to share thoughts with them.

[Felicity]

Pray in order to wisely elect leadership? What a novel idea! Heaven help us indeed! :heeheehee

[RevDWW]

Bro, we have guys on the west coast so worried about what the rest of the UPCI is doing..... on the other side of the continent, that they are about to break the fellowship in half. trust me, the UPCIs big issue isnt the conflict between the guy at "grace" and the guy at "first church"


but what do you know, your pastor doesnt allow compitition! (sorry I couldnt resist. I think your pastor has it right)
There are plenty of other UPCI churchs in the area. Perhaps if more Pastors were like my Pastor they wouldn't have compitation either...:killinme :killinme

I try not to know what is going on in the Organization, execpt Jesus and Him crucified. :tease

In all reality, I shun any type of politics in the Organization. I enjoy doing what I do and letting the Big Dogs worry about the rest....:heeheehee

[Felicity]

A man's Bible school certificate or even his baccalaureate or additional degrees would not be high on my list of criteria, if I were looking for help in the church, or even a successor. I have seen too many proud men sporting degrees who have scarce knowledge of spiritual things. There are plenty of organizational men willing to meet the criteria of their brethren but seem to simply echo popular ideas, and show no anointing of their own. It is really a cause for concern. I do not think that education plays a large part in our most pressing issues today. I agree!

Some of the best preachers and pastors on the planet today and that I grew up under never had much education. What they did have was the anointing and call of God on them, a knowledge of the Word of God and a love for people. It stood them and the people they pastored in good stead.

[RevDWW]

There are many successful and good businessmen and businesswomen who do not have the kinds of education that some seem to feel is so necessary.

Pastors are qualified by experience with God, and not with Bible school or other education.

Education is good, but education neither prevents failure, nor guarentees success. The worst thing about this recent movement to more and more education is that Bible schools often have environments that actually work against spirituality. That is not a pleasant idea, and it is not necessary but it has often been found true.

It seems like, in the end, people are on their own and need to take their chances or heaven help us, pray in order to wisely elect leadership.

A man's Bible school certificate or even his baccalaureate or additional degrees would not be high on my list of criteria, if I were looking for help in the church, or even a successor. I have seen too many proud men sporting degrees who have scarce knowledge of spiritual things. There are plenty of organizational men willing to meet the criteria of their brethren but seem to simply echo popular ideas, and show no anointing of their own. It is really a cause for concern. I do not think that education plays a large part in our most pressing issues today.

Others will feel differently though and it is nice to be able to share thoughts with them.
Good words. :highfive

As one who is where is is by hard work and OJT rather than a BS or Master Degree I can appreciate your comments.

[Ronzo]

Education sure can't hurt a serious man of God.. If that education is provided by the right people with the right knowledge?


Shouldn't we be bettering ourselves and learning more and more as much as possible?

I'm not talking about going out burying yourself in debt and getting a doctorate, but surely book learnin' isn't uv de debbew, is it?

[RevDWW]

Education sure can't hurt a serious man of God.. If that education is provided by the right people with the right knowledge?


Shouldn't we be bettering ourselves and learning more and more as much as possible?

I'm not talking about going out burying yourself in debt and getting a doctorate, but surely book learnin' isn't uv de debbew, is it?

Education is a tool. How that tool is used determines if it's good or bad.

[Ferd]

On the subject of educatioin, I think there is a big difference between some of the great men that we have who have no formal education and young men graduating from highschool and thinking they dont need an education to preach.

honestly there is no excuse for an 18 year old kid to aviod a good education. even mechanics have to get some schooling...

[Felicity]

On the subject of educatioin, I think there is a big difference between some of the great men that we have who have no formal education and young men graduating from highschool and thinking they dont need an education to preach.

honestly there is no excuse for an 18 year old kid to aviod a good education. even mechanics have to get some schooling...Of course. Nobody's against education but what exactly do you mean by "education". Bible College Graduate? PhD? Masters? Bachelors?

[Nahum]

I agree!

Some of the best preachers and pastors on the planet today and that I grew up under never had much education. What they did have was the anointing and call of God on them, a knowledge of the Word of God and a love for people. It stood them and the people they pastored in good stead.

In no way have any of my posts been meant to slam those who have not graduated from college. One of my greatest regrets is that I didn't spend my money on an accredited degree. I would have been better served to receive a business degree rather than a theology degree. I consider myself woefully under-educated.

I think there is no excuse today. A young man can find affordable education if he wants to. Twenty, thirty years ago, this wasn't the norm.

[Ferd]

Of course. Nobody's against education but what exactly do you mean by "education". Bible College Graduate? PhD? Masters? Bachelors?

something. anything other than, "I gots me a bible give me a pulpit"

(we see this from time to time in the piney woods)

[Nahum]

Most of the early-American universities were built on the premise that a minister must be able to converse skillfully. We have men who have never heard of homiletics, hermenuetics, or basic bible study methods that are trying to reach a population of extremely educated young people.

Do the math, it's not going to work.

[Ferd]

I dont want people to assume that i disparrage those who dont have a degree either. Look, some of the greatest men I ever knew didnt have any more education than highschool, and some not that much.


but we live in a different time now where education is much more available.... on many levels.

[Nahum]

And perhaps they should have more than the local Pastors endorsment. Maybe 3 to 6 references other than Pastor. Two others from the local church, two from outside of church jobs, two from other district sources.

And maybe even a good background check.

I like this. Sign it into law. :bliss

[Felicity]

In no way have any of my posts been meant to slam those who have not graduated from college. One of my greatest regrets is that I didn't spend my money on an accredited degree. I would have been better served to receive a business degree rather than a theology degree. I consider myself woefully under-educated.

I think there is no excuse today. A young man can find affordable education if he wants to. Twenty, thirty years ago, this wasn't the norm.I understand what you all are saying. I'm not against education either. I'm just saying that it's no substitute for calling, anointing, and a love for lost humanity and people in general.

I know that you aren't saying anything different. I guess I just put the emphasis on anointing, calling and sacrificial love before education. I wish I had more education too, but I do think that we need to keep the emphasis in the right place and on the right things.

I don't see really where education makes much difference in pulpit ministry. As long as a man (or woman) can read and study they can be as educated as they need to be in regard to what they're preaching and the crowd they're ministering to.

What REALLY matters to the saint in the pew?

I mean I know men who are college educated who take scripture out of context and aren't really great preachers either.

[Ferd]

Most of the early-American universities were built on the premise that a minister must be able to converse skillfully. We have men who have never heard of homiletics, hermenuetics, or basic bible study methods that are trying to reach a population of extremely educated young people.

Do the math, it's not going to work.

I wonder what we would turn up if we took a look at the methods used by the most successful denominations?

I think the UPCI has done a good job of spreading the Gospel but I think we can do more/better. looking at methodology is important.

[Nahum]

I wonder what we would turn up if we took a look at the methods used by the most successful denominations?

I think the UPCI has done a good job of spreading the Gospel but I think we can do more/better. looking at methodology is important.

WWJD?

What would Joel do?

(Joel Osteen) LOL! :killinme

[Nahum]

Of course. Nobody's against education but what exactly do you mean by "education". Bible College Graduate? PhD? Masters? Bachelors?

Hopefully rrford's not listening when I say this. shhhhhhhhhh!

I think we need not encourage our brightest to attend unacredited "colleges".

Pray for me church, PRAY! :drawguns

[rrford]

Of course. Nobody's against education but what exactly do you mean by "education". Bible College Graduate? PhD? Masters? Bachelors?

Some days you post and think folks just don't read what you say. :killinme

I am not necessarily saying a minister in the UPCI needs a college degree. In fact, I never said that anywhere. I do believe the organization should provide quality required education as well as continuing education. Seems to make great sense to me. But thena gain, that is just one man's opinion.

[Ronzo]

Hopefully rrford's not listening when I say this. shhhhhhhhhh!

I think we need not encourage our brightest to attend unacredited "colleges".

Pray for me church, PRAY! :drawguns


I'll not only pray, I'll applaud you for saying it.

[Felicity]

Some days you post and think folks just don't read what you say. :killinme

I am not necessarily saying a minister in the UPCI needs a college degree. In fact, I never said that anywhere. I do believe the organization should provide quality required education as well as continuing education. Seems to make great sense to me. But thena gain, that is just one man's opinion. LOL. :tease

I read what you said and I understand what you're saying. If you read what I said you'll see I'm not dissing education either.

I do think I know what's most important to the person sitting in the pew though. Of course that doesn't mean that education isn't important. It's just not the most important thing.

Get what I'm saying? :)

[Nahum]

3. No resolution changing departmental structures, presented at the last minute, should ever be allowed for discussion at the general conference business session.

Get it together people!

[Felicity]

Just want to say ....

This is a great thread! :tiphat

[rrford]

Hopefully rrford's not listening when I say this. shhhhhhhhhh!

I think we need not encourage our brightest to attend unacredited "colleges".

Pray for me church, PRAY! :drawguns

Such statements are your right to make. However, I feel such ctatements are made by folks who either do not understand or who want to change the purpose of our Bible Colleges. We are talking about training folks for ministry. Not to find a secular job. Perhaps that is why I advocate only one year of BC for folks not pursuing full-time ministry.

[rrford]

I'll not only pray, I'll applaud you for saying it.

Give me a few minutes and I'll find the article the Assembly of God put out stating their failure in sending their young people to accredited colleges.

[Ronzo]

Give me a few minutes and I'll find the article the Assembly of God put out stating their failure in sending their young people to accredited colleges.

The AOG (or any other bloated organization) being against something isn't going to change my opinion about it.

[Nahum]

[QUOTE=rrford;3167]Such statements are your right to make. However, I feel such ctatements are made by folks who either do not understand or who want to change the purpose of our Bible Colleges. We are talking about training folks for ministry. Not to find a secular job. Perhaps that is why I advocate only one year of BC for folks not pursuing full-time ministry.[/
I would have no problem with that. When do you think a non-ministry minded person should go, before or after secular education?

[rrford]

Assemblies of God Colleges News

Return to News Index

Commission On Christian Higher Education Adopts New Name, Expanded Mission
January 26, 2007



For the past 12 years, the Commission on Christian Higher Education has been charged with the responsibility of developing educational, spiritual and theological standards for endorsed colleges and universities of the Assemblies of God.




However, Action by the General Presbytery in session August 2006 established a new vision for Assemblies of God higher education. Effective January 1, 2007, The Alliance for Assemblies of God Higher Education will give direction to endorsed colleges and universities of the Assemblies of God.




Dr. George Wood, chair of the Task Force for Transforming Assemblies of God Higher Education that made the recommendation to the General Presbytery for the change indicated that, "this change has come in response to the fact that between one-half to two-thirds of Christian young people who attend a secular college or university drop out of the Faith within four years. The change in structure, focus and emphasis will bring heightened attention and effort to conserving the vast numbers of Assemblies of God young people for the Faith by promoting the excellent educational opportunities available in our 19 endorsed schools of higher education."




Possible new initiatives for the "Alliance for Assemblies of God Higher Education" include conferences for college students, faculty and administrators, as well as board members. In addition, more research is being planned to find ways to encourage Assemblies of God young people to attend our colleges and universities and to provide more services for our endorsed schools.




The Executive Presbytery appointed the new members of the board of "The Alliance for Assemblies of God Higher Education" during their meeting in January 2007. The board includes all college presidents plus board chairs of schools with more than 250 students enrolled, in addition to four at-large members and those serving by virtue of office.

[rrford]

[QUOTE]
I would have no problem with that. When do you think a non-ministry minded person should go, before or after secular education?

Preferably before. You neve know what direction a young person will take and BC could make the difference. It will also give them a year to hear basci doctrines taught more in depth than what they have heard them previously.

I have heard all of the arguments that folks backslide at BC. My opinion is that if they would backslide at BC they would probably definitley backslide in secular college.

[Nahum]

Assemblies of God Colleges News

Return to News Index

Commission On Christian Higher Education Adopts New Name, Expanded Mission
January 26, 2007

For the past 12 years, the Commission on Christian Higher Education has been charged with the responsibility of developing educational, spiritual and theological standards for endorsed colleges and universities of the Assemblies of God.

However, Action by the General Presbytery in session August 2006 established a new vision for Assemblies of God higher education. Effective January 1, 2007, The Alliance for Assemblies of God Higher Education will give direction to endorsed colleges and universities of the Assemblies of God.

Dr. George Wood, chair of the Task Force for Transforming Assemblies of God Higher Education that made the recommendation to the General Presbytery for the change indicated that, "this change has come in response to the fact that between one-half to two-thirds of Christian young people who attend a secular college or university drop out of the Faith within four years. The change in structure, focus and emphasis will bring heightened attention and effort to conserving the vast numbers of Assemblies of God young people for the Faith by promoting the excellent educational opportunities available in our 19 endorsed schools of higher education."

Possible new initiatives for the "Alliance for Assemblies of God Higher Education" include conferences for college students, faculty and administrators, as well as board members. In addition, more research is being planned to find ways to encourage Assemblies of God young people to attend our colleges and universities and to provide more services for our endorsed schools.

The Executive Presbytery appointed the new members of the board of "The Alliance for Assemblies of God Higher Education" during their meeting in January 2007. The board includes all college presidents plus board chairs of schools with more than 250 students enrolled, in addition to four at-large members and those serving by virtue of office.

rrford, are thier colleges all accredited?

[rrford]

The AOG (or any other bloated organization) being against something isn't going to change my opinion about it.

I didn't think it would. My point is namely this: Even the AoG who has accredited schools realizes their focus has been wrong.

[rrford]

rrford, are thier colleges all accredited?

No. I believe they still have 2 or 3 that are not.

[Nahum]

[QUOTE=Pastor Poster;3175]

Preferably before. You neve know what direction a young person will take and BC could make the difference. It will also give them a year to hear basci doctrines taught more in depth than what they have heard them previously.

I have heard all of the arguments that folks backslide at BC. My opinion is that if they would backslide at BC they would probably definitley backslide in secular college.

I have a daughter who is a junior in high school. She is brilliant (like her mom).

If she waits a year to attend secular college she loses all sorts of scholarship opportunities.

I was hoping Great Lakes University would be accredited before she graduated high school. Doesn't look like its gonna happen.

[Nahum]

No. I believe they still have 2 or 3 that are not.

But they have choices who are accredited. This is a huge difference. If such an opportunity was available for my kids, it would be a no-brainer.

Pardon the pun.:heeheehee

[rrford]

[QUOTE=rrford;3180]

I have a daughter who is a junior in high school. She is brilliant (like her mom).

If she waits a year to attend secular college she loses all sorts of scholarship opportunities.

I was hoping Great Lakes University would be accredited before she graduated high school. Doesn't look like its gonna happen.


Ultimately, what does God want her to do? When that is answered everything esle falls into place. If she is entering full-time ministry then the secular education may only be a delay and may actually change her focus.

If she goes to BC first she can always attend secular college afterwards. It may take loans instead of scholarships but she can still get the job done.

Again, once one commits to God's will everything else has a way of falling into place, IMO.

[rrford]

But they have choices who are accredited. This is a huge difference. If such an opportunity was available for my kids, it would be a no-brainer.

Pardon the pun.:heeheehee

It wouldn't be for me. I do believe it could actually be the will of God for a child of mine to attend a non-accredited college, be it BC or secular schooling. First and foremost is the spiritual aspect then the other things.

[Nahum]

3. No resolution changing departmental structures, presented at the last minute, should ever be allowed for discussion at the general conference business session.

Get it together people!

bumpety-bump bump

[rrford]

bumpety-bump bump

Absolutely, 100% agreed!

[Ferd]

3. No resolution changing departmental structures, presented at the last minute, should ever be allowed for discussion at the general conference business session.

Get it together people!

or how about a step futher, any departmental change in structure should first require a vote one year to have a vote the next year.

that way they cant bring a last minute change, but they cannot "work" on the change without everyone knowing what is going on....

[Nahum]

or how about a step futher, any departmental change in structure should first require a vote one year to have a vote the next year.

that way they cant bring a last minute change, but they cannot "work" on the change without everyone knowing what is going on....

Did I ever tell you, I LOVE YOU MAN!

That one really burnt my biscuits!

I'm the one picking up the pieces. It ain't pretty right now.

[Esther]

2. I would like to see a more stringent licensing process implemented.

In what way?

I think it would do us good to limit the number of times men can come in and out of the organization.

No problem with that.

I think there should be minimum education requirements and/or testing.
Testing be equivelant no problem, as long as it is pertinet information required.

I also think we should rethink our anti-restoration attitude for ministers.
Not sure what it is now??? But I agree with restoration if at all possible.

For the most part I agree. especially on the licensing. I would also like to see continuing education be required.

What kind of continuing education? Bible? Finance?

As for the restoration part, we probably are not toally on the same page with that one.

Esther, I think you missed his point entirely. It is not the Simon's that there is an issue with. It is those that are licensed that have no idea what they are preaching is not true.

I guess this part is debatable? Not true? You talking something besides Acts 2:38?

Minimum education deos not mean college degree; it does mean the organization should supply education that is required before a man can be licensed or advance in licensing.

Are you talking the organization supply education at no cost, or offer education courses at a reasonable fee?

Esther, nowadays ALMOST anyone can afford it. The question is, do they see the need for it? There are things that some are never taught that have nothing to do with opinion.

With the cost continued to go up, can't say most can afford. I think sometimes it is not the money as much as the hours of availability. I have long time been an avocate of night classes for the working people, like the community colleges offer.

It really riled me when I enrolled at Gateway and my first classes were Basic Bible Doctrine, and Simple Bible Study methods. I was insulted. But looking back I'm glad they offered those classes. There were some students who flunked.

They were pastors kids.

I KNOW that to be true.

But as far as I know T.W. Barnes never negated the need for education and did not stop folks from going to Bible College.

Neither would I. However, there is a BIG difference in not negating it vs REQUIRING it.

Esther, there will always be folks that are the exception to the rule. Those are not the ones who need the education. It is the masses that are not the exception. But in order to be fair and balanced all should receive the education.

How is it fair to require it for those not in need of it? Or don't have the funds for it? But have the anointing. I know some that have gone to BC and regretted it, because they teach such structure that God can't move.

But Esther, in all honesty, if that is all one has how do they run the business side of the church?

Many folks have run business' successfully without a degree and many have failed with a degree.

But I would think the board would be the main ones to handle the finances.

WHile I understand your view I imagine there are some men out that fit your two criteria yet you would not let them be your pastor. JMHO.

I truly believe in balance in all things.

There are many successful and good businessmen and businesswomen who do not have the kinds of education that some seem to feel is so necessary.

Pastors are qualified by experience with God, and not with Bible school or other education.

Education is good, but education neither prevents failure, nor guarentees success. The worst thing about this recent movement to more and more education is that Bible schools often have environments that actually work against spirituality. That is not a pleasant idea, and it is not necessary but it has often been found true.

It seems like, in the end, people are on their own and need to take their chances or heaven help us, pray in order to wisely elect leadership.

A man's Bible school certificate or even his baccalaureate or additional degrees would not be high on my list of criteria, if I were looking for help in the church, or even a successor. I have seen too many proud men sporting degrees who have scarce knowledge of spiritual things. There are plenty of organizational men willing to meet the criteria of their brethren but seem to simply echo popular ideas, and show no anointing of their own. It is really a cause for concern. I do not think that education plays a large part in our most pressing issues today.

Others will feel differently though and it is nice to be able to share thoughts with them.

I agree with you. good post


I understand what you all are saying. I'm not against education either. I'm just saying that it's no substitute for calling, anointing, and a love for lost humanity and people in general.

I know that you aren't saying anything different. I guess I just put the emphasis on anointing, calling and sacrificial love before education. I wish I had more education too, but I do think that we need to keep the emphasis in the right place and on the right things.

I don't see really where education makes much difference in pulpit ministry. As long as a man (or woman) can read and study they can be as educated as they need to be in regard to what they're preaching and the crowd they're ministering to.

What REALLY matters to the saint in the pew?

I mean I know men who are college educated who take scripture out of context and aren't really great preachers either.

I agree.
[QUOTE=Pastor Poster;3175]

Preferably before. You neve know what direction a young person will take and BC could make the difference. It will also give them a year to hear basci doctrines taught more in depth than what they have heard them previously.

I have heard all of the arguments that folks backslide at BC. My opinion is that if they would backslide at BC they would probably definitley backslide in secular college.

Agree!

[Advocate]

What a complicated topic this is!

Too often we attempt to deal with this and other subjects without separating the cream, the milk, and the remnants from the barn where it was obtained.

First there is the question of the Bible School. It is not a substitute for secular education, and neither ought it to be considered as such. Some administrations are pressing for a conversion of their schools to satisfy the desires of young people to obtain degrees, consistent with our public acknowledgement that education is desirable for every individual.

If ever there was a concept that maturing young adults can likely obtain desired career paths apart from higher education then it is certainly obsolete now. But there are still some fallacies present.

Some young people can and do find the will of God and occupations and successful lives apart from extensive education. At the same time it is a sobering fact that others flounder, and lose their faith in the college environment. If this is denied, then it is sheer idealism speaking. Finally, the notion that a closed Bible school system can even provide an secular educational equivalent to numerous colleges and universities, or even focused trade schools is wishful thinking at best.

Then there is the fallacy of thinking that Bible schools ought to provide more than theological and ministerial training, or that these pursuits are not valid. Training ministry is a great objective and challenge. On one hand we can say that such training does not require Bible school. On the other hand we can say that it can very much benefit others.

The other question that we mix in too often is the issue of helping young people find the will of God. Maybe some Bible schools, when handed that job by careless parents or pastors, have succeeded here. Yet, this is no guarentee. The responsibility of local leadership to help young people hear the voice of God, even if as simplistically as Eli did with Samuel, is very great.

We can be certain that a young person who is superficially excited about the hope of becoming a minister who has no call of God, and who is not maturing as a Christian, is going to have problems.

Attempting to set a system in place that will meet every need, apart from Christians praying, walking in the Spirit, and individually choosing their career and education is a futile plan. Apostolic people become the laughing stock of the secularists, when they imagine that they can compete with the world's colleges with their efforts to staff a few schools with the paltry, and less than spectacular degree holders.

Finally, Apsotolic people have endorsed the Bible School as a cloistered environment. Emotionally, they have felt better about sending their children to schools where an Apostolic mentality was thought to prevail. However this has run crosswise with the trend to consider young people beyond the need or reach of extensive supervision. Also, history shows us that being a member of a Bible school staff whether accredited, endorsed or otherwise is certainly no guarentee that a teacher will impart only valid and healthy ideas to young people.

If the people who are to be benefited by the schools we have are really not aware of what limitations there are, and what promises ought to be made by the system, it is hard to conceive of increased financial and participatory support by our churches, pastors and families. It is not uncommon to hear of our (UPC) Bible schools as being strongly driven by financial, with policies created to boost enrolement, and to maximize revenue. All in all, the reputations, successes and prognosis for this program is unhappy at this time. Many would like to add their support, but see failings in the Apostolic mindset that may well prevent successful Bible School program.

[Chan]

Warning! You may want to turn your head if this is too painful to look at.

Galatians 5:22 states that one of the end results of the Spirit's work in us will be the addition of longsuffering. Longsuffering is a calmer, gentler synonym of that other word we're apt to run from - patience.

Now patience can be trying, frustrating and at times maddening to receive.
It is through the trying of our faith that patience is birthed. I'm sure you have heard that "tribulation worketh patience"?

But is patience always a virtue? Can patience lead into a general apathy of the soul? Do we confuse apathy and patience in Pentecost?

It would seem to me that some things can't wait. Perhaps this thread will help to identify which areas of life we need to exercise patience in and which areas require immediate change.

Specifically, let's consider the church.

What areas need reform, but not necessarily immediate reform?
What areas need immediate reform?

I will wait impatiently for your response. :dunnoOnly doctors have patients. :)

If you don't want trials and tribulation, don't pray for patience. But, of course, if you don't undergo trials and tribulation you won't be conformed to the image of Christ.

[Nahum]

Esther,

We're going around in circles here. Let me ask you this.

Currently there are reading requirements for all ministerial applicants. Do you think we should do away with them? What if someone can't afford the required books?

[Nahum]

What a complicated topic this is!

Too often we attempt to deal with this and other subjects without separating the cream, the milk, and the remnants from the barn where it was obtained.

First there is the question of the Bible School. It is not a substitute for secular education, and neither ought it to be considered as such. Some administrations are pressing for a conversion of their schools to satisfy the desires of young people to obtain degrees, consistent with our public acknowledgement that education is desirable for every individual.

If ever there was a concept that maturing young adults can likely obtain desired career paths apart from higher education then it is certainly obsolete now. But there are still some fallacies present.

Some young people can and do find the will of God and occupations and successful lives apart from extensive education. At the same time it is a sobering fact that others flounder, and lose their faith in the college environment. If this is denied, then it is sheer idealism speaking. Finally, the notion that a closed Bible school system can even provide an secular educational equivalent to numerous colleges and universities, or even focused trade schools is wishful thinking at best.

Then there is the fallacy of thinking that Bible schools ought to provide more than theological and ministerial training, or that these pursuits are not valid. Training ministry is a great objective and challenge. On one hand we can say that such training does not require Bible school. On the other hand we can say that it can very much benefit others.

The other question that we mix in too often is the issue of helping young people find the will of God. Maybe some Bible schools, when handed that job by careless parents or pastors, have succeeded here. Yet, this is no guarentee. The responsibility of local leadership to help young people hear the voice of God, even if as simplistically as Eli did with Samuel, is very great.

We can be certain that a young person who is superficially excited about the hope of becoming a minister who has no call of God, and who is not maturing as a Christian, is going to have problems.

Attempting to set a system in place that will meet every need, apart from Christians praying, walking in the Spirit, and individually choosing their career and education is a futile plan. Apostolic people become the laughing stock of the secularists, when they imagine that they can compete with the world's colleges with their efforts to staff a few schools with the paltry, and less than spectacular degree holders.

Finally, Apsotolic people have endorsed the Bible School as a cloistered environment. Emotionally, they have felt better about sending their children to schools where an Apostolic mentality was thought to prevail. However this has run crosswise with the trend to consider young people beyond the need or reach of extensive supervision. Also, history shows us that being a member of a Bible school staff whether accredited, endorsed or otherwise is certainly no guarentee that a teacher will impart only valid and healthy ideas to young people.

If the people who are to be benefited by the schools we have are really not aware of what limitations there are, and what promises ought to be made by the system, it is hard to conceive of increased financial and participatory support by our churches, pastors and families. It is not uncommon to hear of our (UPC) Bible schools as being strongly driven by financial, with policies created to boost enrolement, and to maximize revenue. All in all, the reputations, successes and prognosis for this program is unhappy at this time. Many would like to add their support, but see failings in the Apostolic mindset that may well prevent successful Bible School program.

My head hurts, give me a few minutes to digest this. :ty

[Advocate]

or how about a step futher, any departmental change in structure should first require a vote one year to have a vote the next year.

that way they cant bring a last minute change, but they cannot "work" on the change without everyone knowing what is going on....

Unfortunately a large number of people neither pay attention to difficult issues, nor do that have the brains to keep up with debate.

In the last General Conference, a resolution was introduced from within the Executive Comittee that fits the description that Pastor Poster provided.

The body was free to reject it. It did not. Neither was there any discussion. I was with men who this affected personally and who were very interested in the question who were not favorable to it but who did not debate it. They were aware it was in the works, but did not have an suffcient argument against it. If there were more time to consider it apart from some details of who would fill the office, etc., surely it would have been seen even more favorably by the larger body.

People inside the organization who are departmentally conntected always have opinions and very distinct views on these matters but that does not mean that a legal introduction of legislation is, in and of itself, wrong.

I would hate to entertain the idea that government needs to be changed, just because things happened as a result of due process that we did not personally appreciate.

The formation of the Division of Publication was a good idea, in my view. Some did not like how it occured, and know personalities involved which color their thinking on the matter. Still, if General Superintendent Kenneth Haney is to be commended for organizational restructuring, even if every financial detail were not glistening with profitability, then this executive movement is also commendable. Having our publications all under single leadership is a very good idea.

[Felicity]

What a complicated topic this is!

Too often we attempt to deal with this and other subjects without separating the cream, the milk, and the remnants from the barn where it was obtained.

First there is the question of the Bible School. It is not a substitute for secular education, and neither ought it to be considered as such. Some administrations are pressing for a conversion of their schools to satisfy the desires of young people to obtain degrees, consistent with our public acknowledgement that education is desirable for every individual.

If ever there was a concept that maturing young adults can likely obtain desired career paths apart from higher education then it is certainly obsolete now. But there are still some fallacies present.

Some young people can and do find the will of God and occupations and successful lives apart from extensive education. At the same time it is a sobering fact that others flounder, and lose their faith in the college environment. If this is denied, then it is sheer idealism speaking. Finally, the notion that a closed Bible school system can even provide an secular educational equivalent to numerous colleges and universities, or even focused trade schools is wishful thinking at best.

Then there is the fallacy of thinking that Bible schools ought to provide more than theological and ministerial training, or that these pursuits are not valid. Training ministry is a great objective and challenge. On one hand we can say that such training does not require Bible school. On the other hand we can say that it can very much benefit others.

The other question that we mix in too often is the issue of helping young people find the will of God. Maybe some Bible schools, when handed that job by careless parents or pastors, have succeeded here. Yet, this is no guarentee. The responsibility of local leadership to help young people hear the voice of God, even if as simplistically as Eli did with Samuel, is very great.

We can be certain that a young person who is superficially excited about the hope of becoming a minister who has no call of God, and who is not maturing as a Christian, is going to have problems.

Attempting to set a system in place that will meet every need, apart from Christians praying, walking in the Spirit, and individually choosing their career and education is a futile plan. Apostolic people become the laughing stock of the secularists, when they imagine that they can compete with the world's colleges with their efforts to staff a few schools with the paltry, and less than spectacular degree holders.

Finally, Apsotolic people have endorsed the Bible School as a cloistered environment. Emotionally, they have felt better about sending their children to schools where an Apostolic mentality was thought to prevail. However this has run crosswise with the trend to consider young people beyond the need or reach of extensive supervision. Also, history shows us that being a member of a Bible school staff whether accredited, endorsed or otherwise is certainly no guarentee that a teacher will impart only valid and healthy ideas to young people.

If the people who are to be benefited by the schools we have are really not aware of what limitations there are, and what promises ought to be made by the system, it is hard to conceive of increased financial and participatory support by our churches, pastors and families. It is not uncommon to hear of our (UPC) Bible schools as being strongly driven by financial, with policies created to boost enrolement, and to maximize revenue. All in all, the reputations, successes and prognosis for this program is unhappy at this time. Many would like to add their support, but see failings in the Apostolic mindset that may well prevent successful Bible School program. Complicated topic indeed & I was thinking earlier that the concerns here are quite varied and scattered.

Good post! I appreciate you taking the time to address this part of the conversation and doing it well.

[Esther]

Esther,

We're going around in circles here. Let me ask you this.

Currently there are reading requirements for all ministerial applicants. Do you think we should do away with them? What if someone can't afford the required books?

I think with in reason yes. But I believe the Bible is the best of course. There are some required reading such as Bernard's. He has some good material, but it is HIS opinions.

A lot of the recommended reading is just that opinions of the authors.

When you require reading their material you are then endorsing their opinions.

Most you may agree with, but who can possible agree with all?

I know there are a lot of good men out there now, that did not have required books to read and did not go bible college that does just fine.

Here again, is another thing to consider. Some pastors/teachers do more actual Bible teaching than others.

Then you have the conflict of my pastor taught this was wrong. The BC teaches it is ok. It of course, is going to cause confusion.

That is not a bad thing IF the student will study and pray and learn for himself.

I love BC and I am not against it. But I am so sick and tired of this generation becoming a generation of laws for everything. That concept seems to be bleeding into the church.

One of the main benefits of going to BC is making contacts for future revivals, it seems.

How many go and "learn" to preach but have not the anointing?

Why can't the Pastor recommend the person knowing that either they do know their Bible or they don't? Or why not have a reasonable test that shows whether or not they know the material?

After all, isn't that your main concern?

[Nahum]

Unfortunately a large number of people neither pay attention to difficult issues, nor do that have the brains to keep up with debate.

In the last General Conference, a resolution was introduced from within the Executive Comittee that fits the description that Pastor Poster provided.

The body was free to reject it. It did not. Neither was there any discussion. I was with men who this affected personally and who were very interested in the question, who were not favorable to it, but who did not debate it. They were aware it was in the works, but did not have an suffcient argument against it. If there were more time to consider it apart from some details of who would fill the office, etc., surely it would have been seen even more favorably by the larger body.

People inside the organization, departmentally conntected always have opinions and very distinct views on these matters, but that does not mean that a legal introduction of legislation is, in and of itself wrong.

I would hate to entertain the idea that government needs to be changed, just because things happened as a result of due process that we did not personally appreciate.

The formation of the Division of Publication was a good idea, in my view. Some did not like how it occured, and know personalities involved which color their thinking on the matter. Still, if General Superintendent Kenneth Haney is to be commended for organizational restructuring, even if every financial detail were not glistening with profitability, then this executive movement is also commendable. Having our publications all under single leadership is a very good idea.

This topic is a potential land mine to me personally, so I will navigate with more caution than I normally would.

My dissatisfaction is not so much with the resolution itself, as it is with the way it was presented. It was presented in such a way as to stifle debate. Very few men knew this was in the works, and the ones who did felt powerless to debate the issue.

There was also no time to debate it. After the bruhaha with resolution six, the majority of men were ready to feed their faces, and the entire resolution was a huge joke (literally).

In my opinion, government does need to change in response to this one singular event. It was, and is, and will continue to be - a disaster.

This was pushed with an ulterior motive. That, my dear Advocate, is wrong.

Dead wrong.

[Sister Truth Seeker]

To me patients is waiting with anticipation
Apathy is not caring having no interest

[Nahum]

To me patients is waiting with anticipation
Apathy is not caring having no interest


So, in regard to change, where are we Sister?

Is the church apathetic or just extremely patient?

[Nahum]

Posted by Advocate:
Then there is the fallacy of thinking that Bible schools ought to provide more than theological and ministerial training, or that these pursuits are not valid. Training ministry is a great objective and challenge. On one hand we can say that such training does not require Bible school. On the other hand we can say that it can very much benefit others.

The other question that we mix in too often is the issue of helping young people find the will of God. Maybe some Bible schools, when handed that job by careless parents or pastors, have succeeded here. Yet, this is no guarentee. The responsibility of local leadership to help young people hear the voice of God, even if as simplistically as Eli did with Samuel, is very great.

We can be certain that a young person who is superficially excited about the hope of becoming a minister who has no call of God, and who is not maturing as a Christian, is going to have problems.

Attempting to set a system in place that will meet every need, apart from Christians praying, walking in the Spirit, and individually choosing their career and education is a futile plan. Apostolic people become the laughing stock of the secularists, when they imagine that they can compete with the world's colleges with their efforts to staff a few schools with the paltry, and less than spectacular degree holders.

rrford alluded to the idea of Bible College helping a young person find the will of God in their life. Perhaps this is possible, and frequent.

But my daughter has been praying for several years for God to show her a life path. Maybe there are some young people who do not think of such things before high school graduation. If so, I am highly disappointed.

The job of any parent is to point the child toward an altar of committment. That altar does not necessarily need to be at an endorsed bible college.
To me, college is the end of the decision making process, not the beginning.

I am not against bible college. I am thankful for what I received at Gateway.

__________________________________________________ ______________

I don't think any of our bible colleges can compare to a liberal arts university, and honestly that is not my expectation. My only wish is that accredidation would become an immediate reality.

[stmatthew]

Before I post this, I want to say that I am not against any higher education. But I do feel that if we do not begin to stress and teach the workings of the spirit in our bible schools as much as we teach the letter of the law, we will help in fulfilling the following.


This is a paraphrased quote by the late Verbal Bean.


"The latter rain (latter splatter) that swept through Pentecost did great damage to many preachers and churches BUT I believe that we will see a far greater harm come in the future, while the latter-splatter was wild and foolish the coming harm will be sophisticated and extremely polished and driven by intellectual powers--this will destroy more than latter-splatter ever thought of destroying."


I think the greatest training a yong minister is going to encounter is a close relationship to his pastor, and use in his local church. The local Pastor should be the one that judges the young mans abilities and readiness for licensing. If he is not, then that is where the root of the problem is.

[Chan]

I think the greatest training a yong minister is going to encounter is a close relationship to his pastor, and use in his local church. The local Pastor should be the one that judges the young mans abilities and readiness for licensing. If he is not, then that is where the root of the problem is.Why do we in 21st century American culture insist on removing from the leaders of the CHURCH (i.e. the "five-fold" or "four-fold" ministry) their responsibility to equip the saints to do the work of the kingdom? Why do we insist that we need to have institutions and offices or functions that GOD did not establish in the Church? Is it not because the Church has become more like this present wicked world?

[Felicity]

Drat this thread. I've been trying to get pies made for the last couple hours and keep thinking about the topics discussed here and losing focus.

Drat the pies. They keep me from being able to focus and make some comments on some of the discussion here.

:ranting











LOL! :)

[Barb]

Drat this thread. I've been trying to get pies made for the last couple hours and keep thinking about the topics discussed here and losing focus.

Drat the pies. They keep me from being able to focus and make some comments on some of the discussion here.

:ranting











LOL! :)

Well, I want a piece of pie...yes, I'm begging!!:cool:

[rrford]

I think with in reason yes. But I believe the Bible is the best of course. There are some required reading such as Bernard's. He has some good material, but it is HIS opinions.

A lot of the recommended reading is just that opinions of the authors.

When you require reading their material you are then endorsing their opinions.

Most you may agree with, but who can possible agree with all?

I know there are a lot of good men out there now, that did not have required books to read and did not go bible college that does just fine.

Here again, is another thing to consider. Some pastors/teachers do more actual Bible teaching than others.

Then you have the conflict of my pastor taught this was wrong. The BC teaches it is ok. It of course, is going to cause confusion.

That is not a bad thing IF the student will study and pray and learn for himself.

I love BC and I am not against it. But I am so sick and tired of this generation becoming a generation of laws for everything. That concept seems to be bleeding into the church.

One of the main benefits of going to BC is making contacts for future revivals, it seems.

How many go and "learn" to preach but have not the anointing?

Why can't the Pastor recommend the person knowing that either they do know their Bible or they don't? Or why not have a reasonable test that shows whether or not they know the material?

After all, isn't that your main concern?

Esther, this post, particularly the part at the end of the post, shows you know little of the real structure of current BC education. I do not know of one BC that "teaches" anyone to preach. In fact, most BC's offer only one or two courses during a students entire enrollment that would deal with pulpit preachihg in some way.

As for it being a great place to book future revivals, such a comment is belittling to those who give their life to BC work.

[RevDWW]

Esther, this post, particularly the part at the end of the post, shows you know little of the real structure of current BC education. I do not know of one BC that "teaches" anyone to preach. In fact, most BC's offer only one or two courses during a students entire enrollment that would deal with pulpit preachihg in some way.

As for it being a great place to book future revivals, such a comment is belittling to those who give their life to BC work.

BC can be a great place to network, yes?

[IAintMovin]

I want patience




































NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

[Barb]

BC can be a great place to network, yes?

British Columbia?!:D :)

[Nahum]

Drat this thread. I've been trying to get pies made for the last couple hours and keep thinking about the topics discussed here and losing focus.

Drat the pies. They keep me from being able to focus and make some comments on some of the discussion here.

:ranting
LOL! :)

Coconut cream for me please! :praying

[Ronzo]

I want patience



NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Just send check or money order for $19.95 and I'll send you patience right away!

Please allow 6-8 weeks for delivery.

[Nahum]

Before I post this, I want to say that I am not against any higher education. But I do feel that if we do not begin to stress and teach the workings of the spirit in our bible schools as much as we teach the letter of the law, we will help in fulfilling the following.

I think the greatest training a yong minister is going to encounter is a close relationship to his pastor, and use in his local church. The local Pastor should be the one that judges the young mans abilities and readiness for licensing. If he is not, then that is where the root of the problem is.


Matthew,

The scenario you mentioned would be best, but it is not always possible. Many pastors do not know how to mentor, and are afraid to "turn a young man loose". Now that is exact lingo I've heard many times in my life.

Some young men will never "be ready" because daddy won't let them "be ready". He won't help them get ready, and he uses their lack of ability against them.

It's like asking a bird to fly, whose wings have been clipped.

You may ask, "What does this have to do with licensing"?

The emphasis should be placed upon ministry. Licensing is secondary, as evidenced by the requirement to have preached at least once a month for six months.

[Barb]

Coconut cream for me please! :praying

No way...Banana Cream, Apple or Strawberry...;)

[Felicity]

Well, I want a piece of pie...yes, I'm begging!!:cool:

Coconut cream for me please! :praying

No way...Banana Cream, Apple or Strawberry...;)Place your orders and take a number. But the specialty this evening is "Strawberry Cream Cheese" with whipped cream topping.

Free delivery to all those who live in a 12 KM radius.

;) :)

[Barb]

Place your orders and take a number. But the specialty this evening is "Strawberry Cream Cheese" with whipped cream topping.

Free delivery to all those who live in a 12 KM radius.

;) :)

Oops...that lets me out!!:(

[Nahum]

Place your orders and take a number. But the specialty this evening is "Strawberry Cream Cheese" with whipped cream topping.

Free delivery to all those who live in a 12 KM radius.

;) :)

yum yum Felicity!

I'm jealous. :ranting

[Ronzo]

yum yum Felicity!

I'm jealous. :ranting

Repentest thou.

[Nahum]

Repentest thou.

Loooord, I apologize! :praying

[Felicity]

Oops...that lets me out!!:(

yum yum Felicity!

I'm jealous. :rantingHaha!

Honestly, I'd love to share but I'm taking them with me to a ladies meeting. Too bad. :tease

[stmatthew]

Matthew,

The scenario you mentioned would be best, but it is not always possible. Many pastors do not know how to mentor, and are afraid to "turn a young man loose". Now that is exact lingo I've heard many times in my life.

Some young men will never "be ready" because daddy won't let them "be ready". He won't help them get ready, and he uses their lack of ability against them.

It's like asking a bird to fly, whose wings have been clipped.

You may ask, "What does this have to do with licensing"?

The emphasis should be placed upon ministry. Licensing is secondary, as evidenced by the requirement to have preached at least once a month for six months.

If I minister does not know how to lead and bring a young preacher to maturity, it is very likely that he does not know how to bring a saint to maturity either. He has likely become the problem, and not the solution, and needs HIS license and pulpit taken from him until he can learn how to lead.

[Esther]

Esther, this post, particularly the part at the end of the post, shows you know little of the real structure of current BC education. I do not know of one BC that "teaches" anyone to preach. In fact, most BC's offer only one or two courses during a students entire enrollment that would deal with pulpit preachihg in some way.


Brother I have never been to BC I am just going by what I have been told by those that have.
As for it being a great place to book future revivals, such a comment is belittling to those who give their life to BC work.

BC can be a great place to network, yes?

That is what I hear.

[Nahum]

BC can be a great place to network, yes?

Yes , Bible College is a great place to network, but that is not the primary function of the experience. The purpose is to equip men and women for service. The effectiveness of our present endeavor is questionable.

[Felicity]

I think the Bible School I went to was extremely effective in equipping men for ministry! You got so much practical experience as far as opportunities for pulpit ministry within the district. Students were sent out every weekend to churches in the Maritimes and other parts of New England -- even to Quebec and Ontario.

I'm thankful I spent 2 years there. I had an awesome time! Wouldn't trade it for all the tea in China.

:)

[Advocate]

Was there a hint of offense coming along with the idea that Bible school helps in preparing relationships and contacts, that will be useful in ministry?

I hope not! Making connections is vital to development in the ministry as we know it today. Rarely does a minister prosper who does not have moderate to extensive connections across the fellowship.

We could say and have said that BC education is very valuable, but we have to admit that it is not absolutely necessary. Could we say the same thing about good friendships and relationships? I doubt it.

In fact, working relationships with good men and women who are committed to this faith are more likely to produce lasting improvements and maturing in that young preacher, or Christian worker. (Is it necessary to mention that this holds true for relationships to quality people? Perhaps, but even connections to men and women who can, by a bad example, instruct in what not to do or be, can have a powerful and lasting effect.) Don't we expect life to instruct us? Then let's expand the lives of those who we mentor. Bible College connections can do this.

Ideally, the Bible College instructor will also be a close relationship to the young minister but this is not a guarentee by any means.

As to mentoring and helping young people to find the will of God in their lives, how wonderful it would be if this was a general fact. But lets face the facts. Pastors and knowldgeable saints are cautious about sending their young people to our Bible schools because of the very high occasion of finding that the "will of God" is, according to the counsellors:

- Stay here and help at our church
- Marry one of the young ladies and stay to work at the school
- Use your talents Help the music director to obtain fame (and keep his job)
- Go demand a certain salary from a large church

and rarely includes

- Go home an bring your experience and education back to your home church and bless those who sent you and that environment where God planted you.

So, I do believe that our Bible College laborers have some thinking to do about how to present a product that best services the movement. They do well, but their continuation is shakey at best from where I sit.

And with all that I am an ...

Advocate

[Nahum]

Was there a hint of offense coming along with the idea that Bible school helps in preparing relationships and contacts, that will be useful in ministry?

I hope not! Making connections is vital to development in the ministry as we know it today. Rarely does a minister prosper who does not have moderate to extensive connections across the fellowship.

We could say and have said that BC education is very valuable, but we have to admit that it is not absolutely necessary. Could we say the same thing about good friendships and relationships? I doubt it.

In fact, working relationships with good men and women who are committed to this faith are more likely to produce lasting improvements and maturing in that young preacher, or Christian worker. (Is it necessary to mention that this holds true for relationships to quality people? Perhaps, but even connections to men and women who can, by a bad example, instruct in what not to do or be, can have a powerful and lasting effect.) Don't we expect life to instruct us? Then let's expand the lives of those who we mentor. Bible College connections can do this.

Ideally, the Bible College instructor will also be a close relationship to the young minister but this is not a guarentee by any means.

As to mentoring and helping young people to find the will of God in their lives, how wonderful it would be if this was a general fact. But lets face the facts. Pastors and knowldgeable saints are cautious about sending their young people to our Bible schools because of the very high occasion of finding that the will of God is:

- Stay here and help at our church
- Marry one of the young ladies and stay to work at the school
- Use your talents Help the music director to obtain fame (and keep his job)
- Go demand a certain salary from a large church

and rarely includes

- Go home an bring your experience and education back to your home church and bless those who sent you and that environment where God planted you.

So, I do believe that our Bible College laborers have some thinking to do about how to present a product that best services the movement. They do well, but their continuation is shakey at best from where I sit.

And with all that I am an ...

Advocate

Please don't ever stop posting on this forum!

Your words are true, and dripping with the wisdom only someone who has "been there" could possess. Truth is, there is good and bad involved in the whole bible college experience.

It would do us no good to ignore either extreme.

[RevDWW]

Yes , Bible College is a great place to network, but that is not the primary function of the experience. The purpose is to equip men and women for service. The effectiveness of our present endeavor is questionable.

Oh, so your one of those "Bible School" preachers.......that explains a lot......:tease :tease

Just teasing. I don't see any problem with having Bible Colleges (networking or no :heeheehee ).

Some of my friends went to bible college.:killinme

[Felicity]

Was there a hint of offense coming along with the idea that Bible school helps in preparing relationships and contacts, that will be useful in ministry?

I hope not! Making connections is vital to development in the ministry as we know it today. Rarely does a minister prosper who does not have moderate to extensive connections across the fellowship.

We could say and have said that BC education is very valuable, but we have to admit that it is not absolutely necessary. Could we say the same thing about good friendships and relationships? I doubt it.

In fact, working relationships with good men and women who are committed to this faith are more likely to produce lasting improvements and maturing in that young preacher, or Christian worker. (Is it necessary to mention that this holds true for relationships to quality people? Perhaps, but even connections to men and women who can, by a bad example, instruct in what not to do or be, can have a powerful and lasting effect.) Don't we expect life to instruct us? Then let's expand the lives of those who we mentor. Bible College connections can do this.

Ideally, the Bible College instructor will also be a close relationship to the young minister but this is not a guarentee by any means.

As to mentoring and helping young people to find the will of God in their lives, how wonderful it would be if this was a general fact. But lets face the facts. Pastors and knowldgeable saints are cautious about sending their young people to our Bible schools because of the very high occasion of finding that the "will of God" is, according to the counsellors:

- Stay here and help at our church
- Marry one of the young ladies and stay to work at the school
- Use your talents Help the music director to obtain fame (and keep his job)
- Go demand a certain salary from a large church

and rarely includes

- Go home an bring your experience and education back to your home church and bless those who sent you and that environment where God planted you.

So, I do believe that our Bible College laborers have some thinking to do about how to present a product that best services the movement. They do well, but their continuation is shakey at best from where I sit.

And with all that I am an ...

Advocate Awesome!!!

:rooting :rooting :rooting

[Esther]

Was there a hint of offense coming along with the idea that Bible school helps in preparing relationships and contacts, that will be useful in ministry?

I hope not! Making connections is vital to development in the ministry as we know it today. Rarely does a minister prosper who does not have moderate to extensive connections across the fellowship.

We could say and have said that BC education is very valuable, but we have to admit that it is not absolutely necessary. Could we say the same thing about good friendships and relationships? I doubt it.

In fact, working relationships with good men and women who are committed to this faith are more likely to produce lasting improvements and maturing in that young preacher, or Christian worker. (Is it necessary to mention that this holds true for relationships to quality people? Perhaps, but even connections to men and women who can, by a bad example, instruct in what not to do or be, can have a powerful and lasting effect.) Don't we expect life to instruct us? Then let's expand the lives of those who we mentor. Bible College connections can do this.

Ideally, the Bible College instructor will also be a close relationship to the young minister but this is not a guarentee by any means.

As to mentoring and helping young people to find the will of God in their lives, how wonderful it would be if this was a general fact. But lets face the facts. Pastors and knowldgeable saints are cautious about sending their young people to our Bible schools because of the very high occasion of finding that the "will of God" is, according to the counsellors:

- Stay here and help at our church
- Marry one of the young ladies and stay to work at the school
- Use your talents Help the music director to obtain fame (and keep his job)
- Go demand a certain salary from a large church

and rarely includes

- Go home an bring your experience and education back to your home church and bless those who sent you and that environment where God planted you.

So, I do believe that our Bible College laborers have some thinking to do about how to present a product that best services the movement. They do well, but their continuation is shakey at best from where I sit.

And with all that I am an ...

Advocate


You made my point beautifully.

Well said.:ty

[rrford]

Was there a hint of offense coming along with the idea that Bible school helps in preparing relationships and contacts, that will be useful in ministry?

I hope not! Making connections is vital to development in the ministry as we know it today. Rarely does a minister prosper who does not have moderate to extensive connections across the fellowship.

We could say and have said that BC education is very valuable, but we have to admit that it is not absolutely necessary. Could we say the same thing about good friendships and relationships? I doubt it.

In fact, working relationships with good men and women who are committed to this faith are more likely to produce lasting improvements and maturing in that young preacher, or Christian worker. (Is it necessary to mention that this holds true for relationships to quality people? Perhaps, but even connections to men and women who can, by a bad example, instruct in what not to do or be, can have a powerful and lasting effect.) Don't we expect life to instruct us? Then let's expand the lives of those who we mentor. Bible College connections can do this.

Ideally, the Bible College instructor will also be a close relationship to the young minister but this is not a guarentee by any means.

As to mentoring and helping young people to find the will of God in their lives, how wonderful it would be if this was a general fact. But lets face the facts. Pastors and knowldgeable saints are cautious about sending their young people to our Bible schools because of the very high occasion of finding that the "will of God" is, according to the counsellors:

- Stay here and help at our church
- Marry one of the young ladies and stay to work at the school
- Use your talents Help the music director to obtain fame (and keep his job)
- Go demand a certain salary from a large church

and rarely includes

- Go home an bring your experience and education back to your home church and bless those who sent you and that environment where God planted you.
So, I do believe that our Bible College laborers have some thinking to do about how to present a product that best services the movement. They do well, but their continuation is shakey at best from where I sit.

And with all that I am an ...

Advocate


I sincerely wish you knew some of the BC personnell that I do. In fact, what you described is exaclty how they operate as far as building relationships and recommending that the student consider returning home for a period of time.

Further, the BC I am well acquainted with does not advocate the things you mentioned with the exception of offering employment to a few exceptional students. Even then, they are asked to get Pastoral approval before considering the position.

But in all fairness, I can tell you of scores of young people who would love to go to BC but the Pastor tells them "Just stay here and I'll train you and use you." We all know how that usually turns out, don't we?

[Esther]

I sincerely wish you knew some of the BC personnell that I do. In fact, what you described is exaclty how they operate as far as building relationships and recommending that the student consider returning home for a period of time.

Further, the BC I am well acquainted with does not advocate the things you mentioned with the exception of offering employment to a few exceptional students. Even then, they are asked to get Pastoral approval before considering the position.

But in all fairness, I can tell you of scores of young people who would love to go to BC but the Pastor tells them "Just stay here and I'll train you and use you." We all know how that usually turns out, don't we?

I have heard this also, and I agree with you, that is not right either.

As to the personnell MOST is probably very good, but when you know of one that isn't, you don't broad brush anymore. :(

[Nahum]

Warning! You may want to turn your head if this is too painful to look at.

Galatians 5:22 states that one of the end results of the Spirit's work in us will be the addition of longsuffering. Longsuffering is a calmer, gentler synonym of that other word we're apt to run from - patience.

Now patience can be trying, frustrating and at times maddening to receive.
It is through the trying of our faith that patience is birthed. I'm sure you have heard that "tribulation worketh patience"?

But is patience always a virtue? Can patience lead into a general apathy of the soul? Do we confuse apathy and patience in Pentecost?

It would seem to me that some things can't wait. Perhaps this thread will help to identify which areas of life we need to exercise patience in and which areas require immediate change.

Specifically, let's consider the church.

What areas need reform, but not necessarily immediate reform?
What areas need immediate reform?

I will wait impatiently for your response. :dunno

bump