View Full Version : Is God Free to Not Chose to Love and Save All...?
crakjak
03-29-2007, 08:00 PM
....or, is He constrained by the very nature of His being, is God bound to love and save all?
If God loves you and desires the very best for you, how could sending your children, parents or other loved ones to "endless torment" or extermination, be consistent with loving and desiring the best for you?? Will He not instead by His love and power bring all your loved ones to salvation as well?
Is wiping your memory of your loved ones loving? Why instead wouldn't God simply continue pursuing your loved ones until they surrender to His irresistible love.
CupCake
03-29-2007, 08:11 PM
Something to think about.......
mizpeh
03-29-2007, 08:16 PM
....or, is He constrained by the very nature of His being, is God bound to love and save all?
If God loves you and desires the very best for you, how could sending your children, parents or other loved ones to "endless torment" or extermination, be consistent with loving and desiring the best for you?? Will He not instead by His love and power bring all your loved ones to salvation as well?
Is wiping your memory of your loved ones loving? Why instead wouldn't God simply continue pursuing your loved ones until they surrender to His irresistible love.
Did you know Origen taught unconditional salvation also?
Is God a just God? Can God lie?
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
crakjak
03-29-2007, 11:03 PM
Did you know Origen taught unconditional salvation also?
Is God a just God? Can God lie?
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Unconditional salvation is not a accurate definition of "universal reconciliation", the fact that God wills that all come to repentance, and that Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. He will seek until every one of His creation bows willingly and declares Jesus Lord, and at that point He will have become their Lord. God does not lie, "the PURE in heart shall SEE God" and "all flesh shall SEE the salvation of God."
Finally, the OT uses the term "everlasting fire" to define fire that achieves its purpose. There are numerous examples of "everlasting fire" the has quite definitively "gone out".
Yes, Origen embraced universal reconciliation, and he was rejected by the later "church fathers" because of it. At the time of his life it was a fairly common view, and has been the view of many well known church leaders thru the ages.
crakjak
03-29-2007, 11:09 PM
Something to think about.......
Have you decided what you think about this?:winkgrin
rrford
03-29-2007, 11:18 PM
His Righteousness demands true and merciful judgment. We know He can do whatever he chooses to do. But there are some things He will not do because of WHO He is.
crakjak
03-29-2007, 11:33 PM
His Righteousness demands true and merciful judgment. We know He can do whatever he chooses to do. But there are some things He will not do because of WHO He is.
Granted. GOD IS LOVE.
He is the FIRST cause, has He caused something that requires unmerciful punishment?
Man comes into this sin infected world with "brain damage" toward righteousness, so he is "handicapped". In this context if he does not find the right combination of belief......? Does seventy sinful years, truly and mercifully, equal endless damnation?:winkgrin
rrford
03-29-2007, 11:34 PM
Granted. GOD IS LOVE.
He is the FIRST cause, has He caused something that requires unmerciful punishment?
Man comes into this sin infected world with "brain damage" toward righteousness, so he is "handicapped". In this context if he does not find the right combination of belief......? Does seventy sinful years, truly and mercifully, equal endless damnation?:winkgrin
Does 70 years of self-willed living and rejection of the love of God equate to temporary damnation?
crakjak
03-30-2007, 12:01 AM
Does 70 years of self-willed living and rejection of the love of God equate to temporary damnation?
I have four children, one 35 year old special needs son (difficult), a 23 year old very compliant son (easy), a 21 year old wonderful daughter(easy), then a 21 year old, creative, artist, question everything son (hard). Every one of these guys are loved unconditionally, but they all have required different approaches on mom and dad's part to understand and parent them. The middle two have been a breeze and always a joy (almost always), our 35 year old has taken everything we have had, likewise our 21 year old.
But as I have continued to love and to listen and to understand and reach them out to them they too are becoming more and more a joy, in other words we are becoming friends. Will God, who planted the love of our children in us, do any less for HIS CHILDREN? Just because someone is difficult and mean, does not necessarily mean they have "rejected the love of GOD", they simply don't KNOW Him yet.
To answer your question, I believe it equates the refiners fire.
Rhoni
03-30-2007, 12:03 AM
I have four children, one 35 year old special needs son (difficult), a 23 year old very compliant son (easy), a 21 year old wonderful daughter(easy), then a 21 year old, creative, artist, question everything son (hard). Every one of these guys are loved unconditionally, but they all have required different approaches on mom and dad's part to understand and parent them. The middle two have been a breeze and always a joy (almost always), our 35 year old has taken everything we have had, likewise our 21 year old.
But as I have continued to love and to listen and to understand and reach them out to them they too are becoming more and more a joy, in other words we are becoming friends. Will God, who planted the love of our children in us, do any less for HIS CHILDREN? Just because someone is difficult and mean, does not necessarily mean they have "rejected the love of GOD", they simply don't KNOW Him yet.
I hope I have conveyed what I am trying to communicate??
Great post! And so much more does our heavenly father love us!:tiphat
rrford
03-30-2007, 12:03 AM
I have four children, one 35 year old special needs son (difficult), a 23 year old very compliant son (easy), a 21 year old wonderful daughter(easy), then a 21 year old, creative, artist, question everything son (hard). Every one of these guys are loved unconditionally, but they all have required different approaches on mom and dad's part to understand and parent them. The middle two have been a breeze and always a joy (almost always), our 35 year old has taken everything we have had, likewise our 21 year old.
But as I have continued to love and to listen and to understand and reach them out to them they too are becoming more and more a joy, in other words we are becoming friends. Will God, who planted the love of our children in us, do any less for HIS CHILDREN? Just because someone is difficult and mean, does not necessarily mean they have "rejected the love of GOD", they simply don't KNOW Him yet.
I hope I have conveyed what I am trying to communicate??
I do see what you are attempting to communicate.
But can you explain why a lving God "drove" Adam out of the Garden? Why God allowed Achan to be stoned? Why He destroyed the earth by flood? Why He destroyed Sodm and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone?
One should bever confuse the love of God for humanity for unrestricted mercy. He is not willing that any should perish, but some will.
crakjak
03-30-2007, 12:23 AM
I do see what you are attempting to communicate.
But can you explain why a lving God "drove" Adam out of the Garden? Why God allowed Achan to be stoned? Why He destroyed the earth by flood? Why He destroyed Sodm and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone?
One should bever confuse the love of God for humanity for unrestricted mercy. He is not willing that any should perish, but some will.
I agree, but I disagree that to perish is what tradition has taught that it is. Many are perishing (to waste) all around us, as the examples you present. I believe each of these examples exemplify God at work to eventually bring about the reconciliation of all things. Our physical lives are a thumbnail of God's plan for mankind. One definition of "judgment" is the setting of things right, using this connotation, "...it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the (setting of things right) judgment". This in no way excuses sin or the rejection of Jesus' scarifice.
I am currently reading a book by Edited by Robin A. Parry & Christopher H. Partridge "Universal Salvation? the Current Debate" it is fairly in depth for and against by several authors. I particularly am drawn to Thomas Talbott's arguments in favor of. He has written a book "The Inescapable Love of God."
I believe this a debate that the church is going to have to engage straight away. JMHOs
Be Blessed I'm going to bed. Thanks for you responses, please continue.
As God said, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated."
crakjak
03-30-2007, 11:31 AM
As God said, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated."
Hello, Chan we've had this conversation before haven't we?
If this quote from scripture actually means God "hated" Esau, and all those that Calvinists says He has not elected, then it would be accurate to say, "god is hateful". This scripture reflects the way God was dealing with Esau in contrast to Jacob, some children must be dealt with more severly than others. Esau was a tough guy, an outdoorsman, he proabably grunted more than conversed, Jacob was creative, artsy, and senistive, talkative, God dealt with each according to their bend.
God chose Esau as a vessel of dishonor for His purpose, this in no way is indicative of Esau's final end. God's severity and His love is loving and merciful, as a parent's love and severity is for the best of their children.
Falla39
03-30-2007, 11:46 AM
As God said, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated."
I can remember my late pastor father, explaining that the word
hate did not always mean to hate as we think of it. But it means
to love less. I know God is no respector of persons because His
Word tells us so. That prodigal son's father loved that boy and
grieved over the temporary loss of his son. I believe he believed
he would see his son again because while the son was yet a great
way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell
on his neck, and kissed him. Now where was the father, that when
his son was yet a great (long) way off, he SAW him. Because he was
out looking for him, that's why!! Jesus was looking for you and me when
He came to this earh in flesh. He left the "Father's House" The throne
of heaven, took off His Kingly robes and came looking for that one lost
sheep. Have you ever wondered why one tribe was missing in Revelation.
The tribe of Dan (Jacob's son by Bilhah, Rachel's handmaiden) Rachel,
like Jacob's grandmother, Sarah, couldn't wait on God to give her children,
she had to help Him out with the situation. It never pays to get ahead of
God. (Father always knows best. He gives His best to those who love Him
and wait for Him. His Will, His Promise, His Way. They that wait upon the
LORD SHALL renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings as
eagles. They shall run and not be weary. They shall walk and not faint.
Jesus gave the example of two men who owed a creditor. One owed a
little and the other a whole lot. The creditor forgave both their debts.
Jesus asked, Who would love Him most. And Simon said, I suppose he
whom He forgave the most. Jesus told Simon he had judged right.
How much do you feel He has forgiven you (I'm not speaking of any
particular person). Do we feel He hasn't had to forgive us much as we
haven't been very bad!!! That what that self-righteous pharisee thought,
Lord, I am SOOOOOO glad that I am not like that publican. I pay my dues,
and I, I, I,, me, me, me!!!!! The publican beat on his breast and with head
bowed low, LORD, I am not even worthy..! I'm a sinner! Have mercy!! That
was his attitude!
If we feel we haven't much to be forgiven, just wait!!! We're not home
yet. And who wants to stay home and have the spirit of the elder brother!!!
Just some serious, sincere thoughts from a senior sister,
Falla39
crakjak
03-30-2007, 12:07 PM
I can remember my late pastor father, explaining that the word
hate did not always mean to hate as we think of it. But it means
to love less. I know God is no respector of persons because His
Word tells us so. That prodigal son's father loved that boy and
grieved over the temporary loss of his son. I believe he believed
he would see his son again because while the son was yet a great
way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell
on his neck, and kissed him. Now where was the father, that when
his son was yet a great (long) way off, he SAW him. Because he was
out looking for him, that's why!! Jesus was looking for you and me when
He came to this earh in flesh. He left the "Father's House" The throne
of heaven, took off His Kingly robes and came looking for that one lost
sheep. Have you ever wondered why one tribe was missing in Revelation.
The tribe of Dan (Jacob's son by Bilhah, Rachel's handmaiden) Rachel,
like Jacob's grandmother, Sarah, couldn't wait on God to give her children,
she had to help Him out with the situation. It never pays to get ahead of
God. (Father always knows best. He gives His best to those who love Him
and wait for Him. His Will, His Promise, His Way. They that wait upon the
LORD SHALL renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings as
eagles. They shall run and not be weary. They shall walk and not faint.
Jesus gave the example of two men who owed a creditor. One owed a
little and the other a whole lot. The creditor forgave both their debts.
Jesus asked, Who would love Him most. And Simon said, I suppose he
whom He forgave the most. Jesus told Simon he had judged right.
How much do you feel He has forgiven you (I'm not speaking of any
particular person). Do we feel He hasn't had to forgive us much as we
haven't been very bad!!! That what that self-righteous pharisee thought,
Lord, I am SOOOOOO glad that I am not like that publican. I pay my dues,
and I, I, I,, me, me, me!!!!! The publican beat on his breast and with head
bowed low, LORD, I am not even worthy..! I'm a sinner! Have mercy!! That
was his attitude!
If we feel we haven't much to be forgiven, just wait!!! We're not home
yet. And who wants to stay home and have the spirit of the elder brother!!!
Just some serious, sincere thoughts from a senior sister,
Falla39
Well, said Falla.
From my experience as a father, I think maybe "to love differently" might be a more clear understanding. I have had to grow personally to love my children according to their "shaping and bend", they are all different and had I not grown (and continue to do so) I would have alienated rather than matured in relationship. God as our Heavenly Father know exactly how to reach, love and guide each of His children, and He never ever gives up, nor overly forces.
Falla39
03-30-2007, 12:16 PM
As God said, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated."
Dear Bro. Chan,
Are you a father? Do you have children? If not I can understand
why you would not relate to the 'love of a father toward his son".
And there are those who cannot relate to a loving father because
their earthly father was not a good example of a loving father. My
heart goes out to those who have not had a loving father and mother
here on earth. But to whom much is given shall much be required. In
other words, we are our brother's or sister's keeper. We must keep
them (as brothers and sisters) from being so overcome that they will
despair! Paul could have no doubt become overwhelmed with grief from
his past of having persecuted and consenting to some of their death.
Imagine the impact it had on a young man named Saul of Tarsus, as he
stood nearby, watching as Stephen was being stoned, before his eyes.
After he was transformed by the Light (Jesus), I am sure he felt he owed
a debt he could not pay, but Jesus had already paid a debt HE did not
owe!! Paul no doubt would possibly have become overcome by his past
had not it have been for the physican, Luke and his friend and counselor,
Barnabas, son of consolation! Barbabas consoled Paul as his friend.
I wonder have I done my best for JESUS,
who died upon the cruel tree.
To think of His great sacrifice at Calvary,
I know my Lord expects the best from me.
How many are the lost that I have lifted,
How many are the souls I've helped to free,
I wonder have I done my best for JESUS.
When He has done so much for me.
Blessings,
Falla39
crakjak
03-30-2007, 12:40 PM
Does 70 years of self-willed living and rejection of the love of God equate to temporary damnation?
I will say that it is certainly more a "just recompense of reward", is God just?
crakjak
03-30-2007, 12:42 PM
Great post! And so much more does our heavenly father love us!:tiphat
You are right, Rhoni. If we are "evil" in comparison to God, then God's love and mercy is greater than ours.
well, ive been trying to get the crak to splain us the "straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life"
and now he has. thank you (you are a he arent you?)
Dear Bro. Chan,
Are you a father? Do you have children? If not I can understand
why you would not relate to the 'love of a father toward his son".
And there are those who cannot relate to a loving father because
their earthly father was not a good example of a loving father. My
heart goes out to those who have not had a loving father and mother
here on earth. But to whom much is given shall much be required. In
other words, we are our brother's or sister's keeper. We must keep
them (as brothers and sisters) from being so overcome that they will
despair! Paul could have no doubt become overwhelmed with grief from
his past of having persecuted and consenting to some of their death.
Imagine the impact it had on a young man named Saul of Tarsus, as he
stood nearby, watching as Stephen was being stoned, before his eyes.
After he was transformed by the Light (Jesus), I am sure he felt he owed
a debt he could not pay, but Jesus had already paid a debt HE did not
owe!! Paul no doubt would possibly have become overcome by his past
had not it have been for the physican, Luke and his friend and counselor,
Barnabas, son of consolation! Barbabas consoled Paul as his friend.
I wonder have I done my best for JESUS,
who died upon the cruel tree.
To think of His great sacrifice at Calvary,
I know my Lord expects the best from me.
How many are the lost that I have lifted,
How many are the souls I've helped to free,
I wonder have I done my best for JESUS.
When He has done so much for me.
Blessings,
Falla39I call your attention to Romans 9:12-14, "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Note that GOD SAID "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (see also Malachi 1:2-4). Your post is an attempt to argue against what GOD SAID. You cannot deny what GOD SAID unless you are a traitor to God's kingdom.
Then, there are the things Solomon said that God hates "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." So, let's see. God hates the proud, the liars, the murderers, people who devise wicked things, people who are quick to run to mischief, false witnesses, and those who sow discord among the brethren.
God said through the prophet Jeremiah, "Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it."
There was NOTHING in what I posted that would REASONABLY lead to your conclusion that I don't "relate to the 'love of a father toward his son'" and I really don't see why you insisted on posting what you posted. If you're thinking that my post was in response to the one before it, know that if I had been responding to that post then I would have quoted it.
Of course, this notion that "Oh, God loves everybody" is a false doctrine that comes from the very pit of Hell (not the city in Michigan). Humans are born ENEMIES of God. We are all born dead in trespasses and sins. There is nothing within any of us to cause God to love us. That God loves even one human being is solely out of the kindness of His own heart. Again, it was GOD who said HE hated Esau. For a time, GOD hated the nation of Israel. God hates the proud, the liars, the murderers, people who devise wicked things, people who are quick to run to mischief, false witnesses, and those who sow discord among the brethren.
How many people have been sent to the lake of fire through this kind of vile, effeminate, "God loves everybody" preaching going on in so many chruches today?
Given that God specifically said there were those He hated, John 3:16 clearly does not mean that God loves every human being that was ever born; so, it can only mean that God's love is extended only to certain people, i.e. His elect - the "whosoever believeth."
I can remember my late pastor father, explaining that the word
hate did not always mean to hate as we think of it. But it means
to love less. I know God is no respector of persons because His
Word tells us so. That prodigal son's father loved that boy and
grieved over the temporary loss of his son. I believe he believed
he would see his son again because while the son was yet a great
way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell
on his neck, and kissed him. Now where was the father, that when
his son was yet a great (long) way off, he SAW him. Because he was
out looking for him, that's why!! Jesus was looking for you and me when
He came to this earh in flesh. He left the "Father's House" The throne
of heaven, took off His Kingly robes and came looking for that one lost
sheep. Have you ever wondered why one tribe was missing in Revelation.
The tribe of Dan (Jacob's son by Bilhah, Rachel's handmaiden) Rachel,
like Jacob's grandmother, Sarah, couldn't wait on God to give her children,
she had to help Him out with the situation. It never pays to get ahead of
God. (Father always knows best. He gives His best to those who love Him
and wait for Him. His Will, His Promise, His Way. They that wait upon the
LORD SHALL renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings as
eagles. They shall run and not be weary. They shall walk and not faint.
Jesus gave the example of two men who owed a creditor. One owed a
little and the other a whole lot. The creditor forgave both their debts.
Jesus asked, Who would love Him most. And Simon said, I suppose he
whom He forgave the most. Jesus told Simon he had judged right.
How much do you feel He has forgiven you (I'm not speaking of any
particular person). Do we feel He hasn't had to forgive us much as we
haven't been very bad!!! That what that self-righteous pharisee thought,
Lord, I am SOOOOOO glad that I am not like that publican. I pay my dues,
and I, I, I,, me, me, me!!!!! The publican beat on his breast and with head
bowed low, LORD, I am not even worthy..! I'm a sinner! Have mercy!! That
was his attitude!
If we feel we haven't much to be forgiven, just wait!!! We're not home
yet. And who wants to stay home and have the spirit of the elder brother!!!
Just some serious, sincere thoughts from a senior sister,
Falla39Well, it only matters how the BIBLE uses the word. No, hate in the Bible does not mean to love less and you are espousing a vile doctrine from the very pit of Hell (not the city in Michigan) - a kind of mushy, "God loves everybody, there is no sin, God is not angry with the wicked" false gospel common in so many churches today.
The Greek word used in the passage I referred to has the following meanings and ONLY the following meanings:
to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
to be hated, detested
Again, it was GOD who said "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated." You CANNOT get around that. There are various kinds of people that God hates, some of them listed in Proverbs. There was a period where God, through the prophet Jeremiah, said He hated Israel (His heritage).
Hello, Chan we've had this conversation before haven't we?
If this quote from scripture actually means God "hated" Esau, and all those that Calvinists says He has not elected, then it would be accurate to say, "god is hateful". This scripture reflects the way God was dealing with Esau in contrast to Jacob, some children must be dealt with more severly than others. Esau was a tough guy, an outdoorsman, he proabably grunted more than conversed, Jacob was creative, artsy, and senistive, talkative, God dealt with each according to their bend.
God chose Esau as a vessel of dishonor for His purpose, this in no way is indicative of Esau's final end. God's severity and His love is loving and merciful, as a parent's love and severity is for the best of their children.I take it to mean exactly what it says. The Greek word translated hated means:
to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
to be hated, detested
There are other places in scripture where it says God hates specific kinds of people. In the same way, certain behaviors are considered "abominations," things that are detestable or disgusting. The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament where it says God hated Esau and hates certain kinds of people has the following meanings:
to hate, be hateful
(Qal) to hate
of man
of God
hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
(Niphal) to be hated
(Piel) hater (participle)
of persons, nations, God, wisdom
You really can't get around the fact that certain specific words were used and that these words have specific meanings.
crakjak
03-30-2007, 03:02 PM
well, ive been trying to get the crak to splain us the "straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life"
and now he has. thank you (you are a he arent you?)
Yes, I am a he.
crakjak
03-30-2007, 03:20 PM
I call your attention to Romans 9:12-14, "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Note that GOD SAID "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (see also Malachi 1:2-4). Your post is an attempt to argue against what GOD SAID. You cannot deny what GOD SAID unless you are a traitor to God's kingdom.
Then, there are the things Solomon said that God hates "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." So, let's see. God hates the proud, the liars, the murderers, people who devise wicked things, people who are quick to run to mischief, false witnesses, and those who sow discord among the brethren.
God said through the prophet Jeremiah, "Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it."
There was NOTHING in what I posted that would REASONABLY lead to your conclusion that I don't "relate to the 'love of a father toward his son'" and I really don't see why you insisted on posting what you posted. If you're thinking that my post was in response to the one before it, know that if I had been responding to that post then I would have quoted it.
Of course, this notion that "Oh, God loves everybody" is a false doctrine that comes from the very pit of Hell (not the city in Michigan). Humans are born ENEMIES of God. We are all born dead in trespasses and sins. There is nothing within any of us to cause God to love us. That God loves even one human being is solely out of the kindness of His own heart. Again, it was GOD who said HE hated Esau. For a time, GOD hated the nation of Israel. God hates the proud, the liars, the murderers, people who devise wicked things, people who are quick to run to mischief, false witnesses, and those who sow discord among the brethren.
How many people have been sent to the lake of fire through this kind of vile, effeminate, "God loves everybody" preaching going on in so many chruches today?
Given that God specifically said there were those He hated, John 3:16 clearly does not mean that God loves every human being that was ever born; so, it can only mean that God's love is extended only to certain people, i.e. His elect - the "whosoever believeth."
Chan,
You have to defy the very essence and nature of God to define Him in the way you define Him in this post.
Your testimony clearly states: God does not WILL the salvation of all His creation. This view denies that God is all loving and merciful, that He would allow any human being to be born without any opportunity for anything except "endless torment", that my friend is the biggest LIE ever perpetrated on humanity. Calvin and Augustine both, the originators of this doctrine were murderers themselves. So I am not surprised that they would embrace such a damnable doctrine.
God can hate evil and still have mercy on every human, he simply will pursue them until they willingly embrace His provision. I have hated every rebellious act of my children, but I never ever stopped pursuing their best, and neither will the Creator of heaven and earth.
Falla39
03-30-2007, 03:22 PM
Well, it only matters how the BIBLE uses the word. No, hate in the Bible does not mean to love less and you are espousing a vile doctrine from the very pit of Hell (not the city in Michigan) - a kind of mushy, "God loves everybody, there is no sin, God is not angry with the wicked" false gospel common in so many churches today.
The Greek word used in the passage I referred to has the following meanings and ONLY the following meanings:
to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
to be hated, detested
Again, it was GOD who said "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated." You CANNOT get around that. There are various kinds of people that God hates, some of them listed in Proverbs. There was a period where God, through the prophet Jeremiah, said He hated Israel (His heritage).
Dear Bro. Chan,
Brother, I had no intention whatsoever of offending you in either of my
last two posts. I didn't mean to say anything that would cause you to
think I was sowing seeds of discord or any of the other things God hates.
I was posting with the thought that you cannot, or I cannot totally relate
to something you have not been a part of. I cannot relate to being a
man. You could never relate to having birthing a child as God didn't assign
you that role. He didn't assign me the role of being a father. I, as a parent,
mother, specifally, can relate in that role!!
Forgive me, dear Brother, if you are offended!! You sound offended and
it seems you are angry! It was NOT my intention to offend or upset you
in any way!!! I love you, Brother. You are my Brother, if so be that the
Spirit of God dwells in you!!
Blessings,
Falla39
crakjak
03-30-2007, 03:35 PM
I take it to mean exactly what it says. The Greek word translated hated means:
to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
to be hated, detested
There are other places in scripture where it says God hates specific kinds of people. In the same way, certain behaviors are considered "abominations," things that are detestable or disgusting. The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament where it says God hated Esau and hates certain kinds of people has the following meanings:
to hate, be hateful
(Qal) to hate
of man
of God
hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
(Niphal) to be hated
(Piel) hater (participle)
of persons, nations, God, wisdom
You really can't get around the fact that certain specific words were used and that these words have specific meanings.
Of course God hates evil, because it is in such contrast to His holiness. But He also loves His creation, and to say Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world is of the worst heresy. I hate evil but there is not one human being that I know of that I believe deserves billions and billions of years of endless torment without any hope of rehabilitation. The doctrine of eternal damnation without any hope of every being redeemed is the source of more evil and wickedness than we can imagine. The wars that we are witnessing around the globe today are rooted in this ungodly, manmade doctrince that is the root of almost every religion in the world. Where is the good news, what is the gospel??? Your gospel has primarily horrible news, except for a few elite it is the worst possible news.
Does God have the power to save and redeem His creation?
Does God Will to save all His creation?
Or like Calvin and Chan believes, does God HATE the vast majority of HIS creation?
Chan,
You have to defy the very essence and nature of God to define Him in the way you define Him in this post.
Your testimony clearly states: God does not WILL the salvation of all His creation. This view denies that God is all loving and merciful, that He would allow any human being to be born without any opportunity for anything except "endless torment", that my friend is the biggest LIE ever perpetrated on humanity. Calvin and Augustine both, the originators of this doctrine were murderers themselves. So I am not surprised that they would embrace such a damnable doctrine.
God can hate evil and still have mercy on every human, he simply will pursue them until they willingly embrace His provision. I have hated every rebellious act of my children, but I never ever stopped pursuing their best, and neither will the Creator of heaven and earth.Nothing I said "clearly states: God does not WILL the salvation of all His creation." Try reading the words instead of trying to read between the lines. God is loving and merciful toward His elect. God commands ALL humans to repent (thus giving everyone the opportunity to be saved). What you're MISSING, though, is that NO HUMAN ON HIS OWN WILL EVER WANT TO BE SAVED. Why? Because every human is born dead in trespasses and sin and is born a slave to sin and an enemy of God. It is the human's nature to sin. To repent of his sins is to go against his very nature. Thus, in order for anyone to be saved, God must interfere with a person's will and change that person's will. God doesn't choose to interfere with every human's will but, instead, simply allows the vast majority of humans to go where their own sinful nature takes them, even though He still commands them to repent.
However, in a certain sense, it's true that God does not WILL the salvation of every human being because if He willed it then it would happen. Why? Because God said that He would accomplish all His purpose. When Peter said that God was not WILLING that any should perish, Peter was referring only to the "us" earlier in the passage.
God does not deny salvation to anyone who WANTS it. However, the only ones who WANT it are the elect - those with whose wills God specifically interferes and causes to want salvation. Jesus said that NO ONE can come to Him unless the Father draws him. Now, you must say: 1) that there are those whom God does not draw; 2) that God's ability to draw is weak and ineffectual since not everyone is drawn to Him; or 3) everyone is going to be drawn to Him in the end, even if some of them are drawn after their physical bodies die.
Jesus said that all those whom the Father gave to Him WILL come to Him. This is absolute; so, either there are those whom the Father did not give to Jesus (since there are those who will not come to Jesus) or everyone is going to be saved in the end (the universal salvation heresy).
God is NOT the father of all of humanity. He is only figuratively the father of Adam and Eve (because He directly created them), figuratively the father of the angels (for the same reason He is figuratively the father of Adam and Eve), literally the father of the man Christ Jesus, and by adoption the father of Christians. Your attempt to apply God's fatherhood to the whole of humanity makes humanity out to be in no eternal danger, makes the separation from God that we're all born in meaningless, and denies the truth of scripture regarding the wicked.
Esther
03-30-2007, 03:37 PM
....or, is He constrained by the very nature of His being, is God bound to love and save all?
If God loves you and desires the very best for you, how could sending your children, parents or other loved ones to "endless torment" or extermination, be consistent with loving and desiring the best for you?? Will He not instead by His love and power bring all your loved ones to salvation as well?
Is wiping your memory of your loved ones loving? Why instead wouldn't God simply continue pursuing your loved ones until they surrender to His irresistible love.
Easy.
He is God.
He made the rules.
We obey the rules or pay the consequences.
He gave you and I and everyone else a free will to choose.
We in essence send our selves to where we go.
We can choose to go to church or we can choose to go to the bar. Where we go is OUR choice, not His.
Dear Bro. Chan,
Brother, I had no intention whatsoever of offending you in either of my
last two posts. I didn't mean to say anything that would cause you to
think I was sowing seeds of discord or any of the other things God hates.
I was posting with the thought that you cannot, or I cannot totally relate
to something you have not been a part of. I cannot relate to being a
man. You could never relate to having birthing a child as God didn't assign
you that role. He didn't assign me the role of being a father. I, as a parent,
mother, specifally, can relate in that role!!
Forgive me, dear Brother, if you are offended!! You sound offended and
it seems you are angry! It was NOT my intention to offend or upset you
in any way!!! I love you, Brother. You are my Brother, if so be that the
Spirit of God dwells in you!!
Blessings,
Falla39No, you misunderstood. I was merely citing passages where God is said to hate certain kinds of people. I wasn't saying that YOU were any of those things. What I do find offensive (and what makes me angry) is the false gospel of "Oh, God just loves everybody, is not angry with the wicked, won't punish the wicked," etc. that is being preached in so many churches today (your previous post seemed to communicate that kind of gospel). The psalmist said that God is angry with the wicked every day.
What makes God's grace grace and what makes His mercy mercy is the fact that without these humanity is utterly without any hope. A person cannot see the grace and mercy of God if he cannot see his utterly lost and hopeless state. The kind of "God loves everybody" false gospel being preached today removes the very reality of the lake of fire and utter separation from God.
crakjak
03-30-2007, 03:49 PM
Easy.
He is God.
He made the rules.
We obey the rules or pay the consequences.
He gave you and I and everyone else a free will to choose.
We in essence send our selves to where we go.
We can choose to go to church or we can choose to go to the bar. Where we go is OUR choice, not His.
Sister,
What your post misses is that we were all born and shapen in inquity, estranged from God without hope in the world. The world is fallen and there is none that seeks after God. Chan is correct, that it is only the mercy of God that CAUSES anyone to repent. Fortunely, he is not a respector of persons and will pursue each and everyone of us until we "see" His salvation.
Again, in your last sentence you are mistaken, "we would go no where, except that God gave us the 'desire and will' to do so. Our freewill is very, very limited within the boundaries of where God placed us in the earth.
crakjak
03-30-2007, 11:59 PM
I take it to mean exactly what it says. The Greek word translated hated means:
to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
to be hated, detested
There are other places in scripture where it says God hates specific kinds of people. In the same way, certain behaviors are considered "abominations," things that are detestable or disgusting. The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament where it says God hated Esau and hates certain kinds of people has the following meanings:
to hate, be hateful
(Qal) to hate
of man
of God
hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
(Niphal) to be hated
(Piel) hater (participle)
of persons, nations, God, wisdom
You really can't get around the fact that certain specific words were used and that these words have specific meanings.
Your doctrine is convoluted, God hates all this stuff yet he will go ahead and save a few of those that He hates. So he really is a respecter of persons, he favors some over others, so He is partial and unfair. You may say He is God so He can do anything He chooses. Well, he will choose to do that which is consistent with His character.
RevDWW
03-31-2007, 04:09 AM
The whole of Romans chapter 9 speaks to the question you raise.
Rom 9:2 - 33 (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
His ways are higher then our ways. God is sovereign and can do what He will.
So it would appear that we must answer the question as to what we are doing with the vessel God formed us in. If you know the truth, it will set you free.
As for me:
I must obey what I know to be true in the Word. I must repent of my sins, I must be baptized in the name/authority/power of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, and I shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost which will guide me into all truth. I must respond to His leading, I must resist the will of the flesh and answer to the will of the Spirit.
....or, is He constrained by the very nature of His being, is God bound to love and save all?
If God loves you and desires the very best for you, how could sending your children, parents or other loved ones to "endless torment" or extermination, be consistent with loving and desiring the best for you?? Will He not instead by His love and power bring all your loved ones to salvation as well?
Is wiping your memory of your loved ones loving? Why instead wouldn't God simply continue pursuing your loved ones until they surrender to His irresistible love.
If you believe God is bound to his word. Then what he has stated from before the foundation of the World. He can't and will not change.
We sometimes what to think, "If we were God, What would we do?"
It does not work that way. We are not God......
crakjak
03-31-2007, 04:34 PM
The whole of Romans chapter 9 speaks to the question you raise.
His ways are higher then our ways. God is sovereign and can do what He will.
So it would appear that we must answer the question as to what we are doing with the vessel God formed us in. If you know the truth, it will set you free.
As for me:
I must obey what I know to be true in the Word. I must repent of my sins, I must be baptized in the name/authority/power of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, and I shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost which will guide me into all truth. I must respond to His leading, I must resist the will of the flesh and answer to the will of the Spirit.
I do not believe Paul was saying that he wished himself to suffer eternal damnation for his brethen. Further, no where in Romans 9 is he speaking of folks being in danger of endless torment, nor does it teach that only a few elect will be saved. Yes, God chose Jacob as a vessel of honor and Esau as a vessel of dishonor, He has mercy on whomever He wills, hardens the hearts of whomever He wills. This verses must be interpreted in their context in Romans. These verses speak of folks physical lives and in no way are projecting their final end. Romans 5.18, Clearly tells us, just as "one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one Man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Romans 11.32 tells why God allows evil, "imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may be merciful to all."
crakjak
03-31-2007, 05:09 PM
If you believe God is bound to his word. Then what he has stated from before the foundation of the World. He can't and will not change.
We sometimes what to think, "If we were God, What would we do?"
It does not work that way. We are not God......
What you say here I do not disagree with, however men are notorious for misinterpreting God's intent.
Just because something has been understood, by the powers that be, a certain way does not necessarily mean it is the correct understanding. Most of the traditional views are views that were imposed by the Roman sword.
There have been many believers in Universal Reconciliation down thru history, but the prevailing view is the view that God will destroy or torment the vast majority of His creation endlessly.
The view that God will ultimately reign victorious over all evil is pervasive throughout scripture. So which interpretation will you embrace?
I choose to read and interpret that God will do what He said Jesus came to do, "seek and to save that which is lost". I choose to believe scripture teaches that God's mercy and His severity is His love at work to finally bring all persons to right relationship with Himself and with each other. I believe this view is much more in line with God's word, than the traditional view.
When ever I read this thread title, I am reminded of the words of the song...
God could have chosen to never love again...
What you say here I do not disagree with, however men are notorious for misinterpreting God's intent.
Just because something has been understood, by the powers that be, a certain way does not necessarily mean it is the correct understanding. Most of the traditional views are views that were imposed by the Roman sword.
There have been many believers in Universal Reconciliation down thru history, but the prevailing view is the view that God will destroy or torment the vast majority of His creation endlessly.
The view that God will ultimately reign victorious over all evil is pervasive throughout scripture. So which interpretation will you embrace?
I choose to read and interpret that God will do what He said Jesus came to do, "seek and to save that which is lost". I choose to believe scripture teaches that God's mercy and His severity is His love at work to finally bring all persons to right relationship with Himself and with each other. I believe this view is much more in line with God's word, than the traditional view.
I agree. My comments were around the idea that God would save
all no matter the sinful condition they may stay in....
CupCake
03-31-2007, 06:48 PM
Have you decided what you think about this?:winkgrin
Not really, you???:winkgrin
crakjak
03-31-2007, 09:03 PM
Not really, you???:winkgrin
I have been posting what I think about this subject, just wondering if you had any input?
crakjak
03-31-2007, 09:07 PM
I agree. My comments were around the idea that God would save
all no matter the sinful condition they may stay in....
A common misconception about universal reconciliation, is that God will just save everyone no matter what. The heart of this view is that God will continue to pursue until every prodigal comes home, and every lost sheep is found.
Harmony
04-01-2007, 06:50 AM
Very good thread! I have had this very question. I get overwhelmed by the thought of the billions of people that are currently on this earth as well as the ones that have passed on. Are the 99.9% all going to Hell because they didn't believe acts 2:38? Did Jesus shed his blood for so few?
I am sorry to say this, but it has been my life experience that there are more ways to loose your salvation then there are to obtain it in the UPC churches I have gone to. The whole point is to live in such a perfect way as not to loose it.....yet no one is perfect
:rolleyes:
crakjak
04-01-2007, 04:06 PM
Very good thread! I have had this very question. I get overwhelmed by the thought of the billions of people that are currently on this earth as well as the ones that have passed on. Are the 99.9% all going to Hell because they didn't believe acts 2:38? Did Jesus shed his blood for so few?
I am sorry to say this, but it has been my life experience that there are more ways to loose your salvation then there are to obtain it in the UPC churches I have gone to. The whole point is to live in such a perfect way as not to loose it.....yet no one is perfect
:rolleyes:
I was raised UPC and have no ax to grind, however the idea that the vast majority of God's creation were to spend billions of years in torment just did not resonate in my spirit. The more I prayed about it the more I desired to know God as He really is, rather than as tradition and religion portraits Him. If you can just reach the point to ask the question, "could it possible be God purpose to redeem all His creation?" Then as you study scripture pray the question, it is there all the time, no need to avoid the Word, it is there.
What an awesome God!!! Then you will begin to see others in a totally new light, the light of God's love. Even His severity has a purpose, to cure, to purge and to redeem. No one will escape judgment, the setting of things right.
"Then none will say, 'know the Lord', for all shall know Him from the least to the greatest." "...every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Yes, these are quotes from scripture.
crakjak
04-01-2007, 04:10 PM
When ever I read this thread title, I am reminded of the words of the song...
God could have chosen to never love again...
But that, my dear sister would ultimately be impossible, because our great God is LOVE.:happydance :happydance
Jekyll
04-01-2007, 04:26 PM
I was raised UPC and have no ax to grind, however the idea that the vast majority of God's creation were to spend billions of years in torment just did not resonate in my spirit. The more I prayed about it the more I desired to know God as He really is, rather than as tradition and religion portraits Him. If you can just reach the point to ask the question, "could it possible be God purpose to redeem all His creation?" Then as you study scripture pray the question, it is there all the time, no need to avoid the Word, it is there.
What an awesome God!!! Then you will begin to see others in a totally new light, the light of God's love. Even His severity has a purpose, to cure, to purge and to redeem. No one will escape judgment, the setting of things right.
"Then none will say, 'know the Lord', for all shall know Him from the least to the greatest." "...every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Yes, these are quotes from scripture.
Of course God can make it possible for all of humanity to be saved from hell...He did just that through Calvary and by living inside of us. Those who reject those gifts have rejected God, He hasn't rejected us...
David said one time that he would not offer to God that which has cost him nothing. It is a sacrifice of sorts to serve God. Jesus' death is for nothing if the scripture reads, "for all have sinned but don't fall short of the glory of God"
crakjak
04-01-2007, 07:02 PM
Of course God can make it possible for all of humanity to be saved from hell...He did just that through Calvary and by living inside of us. Those who reject those gifts have rejected God, He hasn't rejected us...
David said one time that he would not offer to God that which has cost him nothing. It is a sacrifice of sorts to serve God. Jesus' death is for nothing if the scripture reads, "for all have sinned but don't fall short of the glory of God"
If there had not been a debt to be paid Jesus would not have died. Since He died the debt has been paid. What sacrifice can we make that can help with the debt Jesus has already paid.
The task is for people to come to understand what Jesus has done, because they don't know they languish in sin, perishing.
Jekyll
04-01-2007, 08:12 PM
If there had not been a debt to be paid Jesus would not have died. Since He died the debt has been paid. What sacrifice can we make that can help with the debt Jesus has already paid.
The task is for people to come to understand what Jesus has done, because they don't know they languish in sin, perishing.
Ahhhhh...once saved always saved, eh?
CupCake
04-01-2007, 08:14 PM
I have been posting what I think about this subject, just wondering if you had any input?
Sure but it cost you....;) I think I'll just view for now.:aaa
CupCake
04-01-2007, 08:16 PM
I was raised UPC and have no ax to grind, however the idea that the vast majority of God's creation were to spend billions of years in torment just did not resonate in my spirit. The more I prayed about it the more I desired to know God as He really is, rather than as tradition and religion portraits Him. If you can just reach the point to ask the question, "could it possible be God purpose to redeem all His creation?" Then as you study scripture pray the question, it is there all the time, no need to avoid the Word, it is there.
What an awesome God!!! Then you will begin to see others in a totally new light, the light of God's love. Even His severity has a purpose, to cure, to purge and to redeem. No one will escape judgment, the setting of things right.
"Then none will say, 'know the Lord', for all shall know Him from the least to the greatest." "...every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Yes, these are quotes from scripture.
I tend to agree with you here...;)
crakjak
04-01-2007, 11:05 PM
Ahhhhh...once saved always saved, eh?
I would not define it as such. Rather I would define it as universal reconciliation. That is why , according to Paul, our destiny "...depends not on human WILL or exertion, but on God who shows mercy" (Rom. 9.16); it is also why the New Testament generally credits even repentance (2 Tim. 2.25), faith (Eph. 2.8), and belief (Acts 13.48) to the WORK OF GOD within.
In other words, our destiny depends much more on what God has done than what we do. Our works in the earth will be called to account to see what they are made of, if it is of God we will be rewarded accordingly. If our works are not of God they will all be burned up, however we will be saved "how be it by fire."
We are called to repentance and obedience, so we can enter into God's life now by grace thru faith, or we will go thru the fire.
crakjak
04-01-2007, 11:06 PM
Sure but it cost you....;) I think I'll just view for now.:aaa
That's great.:toofunny
Your doctrine is convoluted, God hates all this stuff yet he will go ahead and save a few of those that He hates. So he really is a respecter of persons, he favors some over others, so He is partial and unfair. You may say He is God so He can do anything He chooses. Well, he will choose to do that which is consistent with His character.Yes, He chooses to save a few, but not based on anything inherent in those He chooses to save. Thus, he is not being a respecter of persons because those He saves and those He does not save were both equally wicked and deserving of the lake of fire. God doing things like this solely out of the counsel of His own will is entirely consistent with His character.
CupCake
04-02-2007, 02:08 PM
I would not define it as such. Rather I would define it as universal reconciliation. That is why , according to Paul, our destiny "...depends not on human WILL or exertion, but on God who shows mercy" (Rom. 9.16); it is also why the New Testament generally credits even repentance (2 Tim. 2.25), faith (Eph. 2.8), and belief (Acts 13.48) to the WORK OF GOD within.
In other words, our destiny depends much more on what God has done than what we do. Our works in the earth will be called to account to see what they are made of, if it is of God we will be rewarded accordingly. If our works are not of God they will all be burned up, however we will be saved "how be it by fire."
We are called to repentance and obedience, so we can enter into God's life now by grace thru faith, or we will go thru the fire.
That's how I view it~
Jekyll
04-02-2007, 04:42 PM
I would not define it as such. Rather I would define it as universal reconciliation. That is why , according to Paul, our destiny "...depends not on human WILL or exertion, but on God who shows mercy" (Rom. 9.16); it is also why the New Testament generally credits even repentance (2 Tim. 2.25), faith (Eph. 2.8), and belief (Acts 13.48) to the WORK OF GOD within.
In other words, our destiny depends much more on what God has done than what we do. Our works in the earth will be called to account to see what they are made of, if it is of God we will be rewarded accordingly. If our works are not of God they will all be burned up, however we will be saved "how be it by fire."
We are called to repentance and obedience, so we can enter into God's life now by grace thru faith, or we will go thru the fire.
Semantics....amounts to once saved always saved
Steve Epley
04-02-2007, 05:26 PM
Hold your seats but I heard A. A. Allen preach once God is a Killer! God has judgment and justice just like he has mercy and grace.
crakjak
04-02-2007, 06:34 PM
Hold your seats but I heard A. A. Allen preach once God is a Killer! God has judgment and justice just like he has mercy and grace.
God's judgment and justice are not independent of His grace and mercy. Both His mercy and His severity precedes out of His love. Just like parents love and severity serve the best interest of their children. Jesus came to redeem, reconcile and restore relationship with His creation, not to condemn and destroy. He will not leave any forever in their sinful state, even in a hellhole, death and hell will eventually be completely destroyed in the lake of fire, when they have served their purpose. Then God will be "all in all.":happydance
Steve Epley
04-02-2007, 06:36 PM
God hates just like he loves and yes he hates people.
crakjak
04-02-2007, 06:46 PM
Semantics....amounts to once saved always saved
OK, God is not an indian giver, He sent His Son to reconcile man to Himself, and Jesus paid for man's sin with His priceless blood. What God has purposed He will accomplish. Neither wimpy satan nor the "so called freewill of man" will hinder His purpose.
However, don't make the mistake of believing that this means you can just live out the fleshly desires with impunity. The "fire" of the refiner and the "soap" of the launderer will be applied, and every "penney will be paid", a just recompense of reward. Those who are already in Christ will enter into the "joy of the Lord", those who have not entered into the "narrow gate" will enter into "age abiding" purging, I do not want to be in that number. In the end however, death and hell will be finally destroyed in the lake of fire, that cannot be quenched until it has accomplished His purpose.
crakjak
04-02-2007, 06:48 PM
God hates just like he loves and yes he hates people.
Yeah, Bro, just like you must "hate" father and mother, etc, in order to please Him.:winkgrin
Jekyll
04-02-2007, 08:12 PM
OK, God is not an indian giver, He sent His Son to reconcile man to Himself, and Jesus paid for man's sin with His priceless blood. What God has purposed He will accomplish. Neither wimpy satan nor the "so called freewill of man" will hinder His purpose.
However, don't make the mistake of believing that this means you can just live out the fleshly desires with impunity. The "fire" of the refiner and the "soap" of the launderer will be applied, and every "penney will be paid", a just recompense of reward. Those who are already in Christ will enter into the "joy of the Lord", those who have not entered into the "narrow gate" will enter into "age abiding" purging, I do not want to be in that number. In the end however, death and hell will be finally destroyed in the lake of fire, that cannot be quenched until it has accomplished His purpose.
I have stated before, He doesn't reject us, we reject Him. We have freedom to do things that alienate us from Him.
stmatthew
04-02-2007, 10:41 PM
crakjak,
Do you believe that satan and the fallen angels will be reconciled to God also?
crakjak
04-03-2007, 07:59 AM
I have stated before, He doesn't reject us, we reject Him. We have freedom to do things that alienate us from Him.
To truly reject Christ, one must truly know Christ.
NO HUMAN BEING who truly comes to know Christ will reject Him ever.
They may stray, due to weakness of the flesh, but will never deny or reject Christ.
crakjak
04-03-2007, 08:01 AM
crakjak,
Do you believe that satan and the fallen angels will be reconciled to God also?
God has both the time and power to purge, cleanse and reconcile satan and the fallen angels. Will He do so, I don't know. "With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Jekyll
04-03-2007, 10:47 AM
To truly reject Christ, one must truly know Christ.
NO HUMAN BEING who truly comes to know Christ will reject Him ever.
They may stray, due to weakness of the flesh, but will never deny or reject Christ.
Nonsense.
You can speak for the rest of humanity in what they will or will not do then base a doctrine on that faulty assumption??
I can reject a Toyota or a Honda without knowing anything about them but just like what I am driving and continue on in my preference even though it may be a piece of junk...
God gave the ultimate sacrifice...no matter who you are you have to apply it to your life...
Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid...
rrford
04-03-2007, 10:48 AM
To truly reject Christ, one must truly know Christ.
NO HUMAN BEING who truly comes to know Christ will reject Him ever.
They may stray, due to weakness of the flesh, but will never deny or reject Christ.
Would you mind expounding further upon that supposition? I think it is only true if you take it into the realm of "semantics" and not in the realm of reality.
Many reject Christ and thus never get the opportunity to know Him.
crakjak
04-03-2007, 05:07 PM
Nonsense.
You can speak for the rest of humanity in what they will or will not do then base a doctrine on that faulty assumption??
I can reject a Toyota or a Honda without knowing anything about them but just like what I am driving and continue on in my preference even though it may be a piece of junk...
God gave the ultimate sacrifice...no matter who you are you have to apply it to your life...
Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid...
With all due respect God is not a Honda or Toyota. He is the Savior of the world.
Roman 5. 12-21 Tells us that what the first Adam did for the human race (condemnation), the second Adam did even more (reconciliation). How much of the race did Adams cause condemnation? Jesus sacrifice covers the same number. The point being that without any effort on your part you were condemned, likewise is the free gift.
Do you continue in sin, of course not, your are reconciled so enter in to life thru Jesus blood. Otherwise you will go thru judgement and punishment (the setting of things right).
crakjak
04-03-2007, 05:22 PM
Would you mind expounding further upon that supposition? I think it is only true if you take it into the realm of "semantics" and not in the realm of reality.
Many reject Christ and thus never get the opportunity to know Him.
Can someone "truly" reject someone they do not know? We may hear about someone and not like what we hear, but many times when we get to "know" that person we actually do like them.
The statment came from my heart, and that is "to know God is to love Him."
In Him there is no darkness, someone may walk away from relationship out of their sense of being inadequate. I don't consider that as rejecting Him, but rather actually reflects not knowing Him.
Jekyll
04-03-2007, 09:44 PM
With all due respect God is not a Honda or Toyota. He is the Savior of the world.
Roman 5. 12-21 Tells us that what the first Adam did for the human race (condemnation), the second Adam did even more (reconciliation). How much of the race did Adams cause condemnation? Jesus sacrifice covers the same number. The point being that without any effort on your part you were condemned, likewise is the free gift.
Do you continue in sin, of course not, your are reconciled so enter in to life thru Jesus blood. Otherwise you will go thru judgement and punishment (the setting of things right).
Just using absurdity to explain absurdity. Your semantics do not make your argument correct...
Sorry, once saved isn't always saved.
crakjak
04-03-2007, 09:50 PM
Just using absurdity to explain absurdity. Your semantics do not make your argument correct...
Sorry, once saved isn't always saved.
Maybe, just maybe it is absurdity to avoid addressing the plain presentation of the scriptures.:winkgrin
Jekyll
04-03-2007, 09:54 PM
Maybe, just maybe it is absurdity to avoid addressing the plain presentation of the scriptures.:winkgrin
No maybes. It is useless to discuss plain scripture with one who creates a whole new doctrine other than that found in scripture. I don't find your universal reconciliation anywhere in scripture.
crakjak
04-03-2007, 10:11 PM
No maybes. It is useless to discuss plain scripture with one who creates a whole new doctrine other than that found in scripture. I don't find your universal reconciliation anywhere in scripture.
How much have you looked?
(Romans 5. 18) Notice first the parallel structure of the verse: "Therefore just as one man's trespas led to condemnation for all [humans],
so one man's act of righteousnes leads to justification and life for [them] all.
It is not hard to find if you are looking.
Jekyll
04-03-2007, 10:18 PM
how much have you looked?
(Romans 5. 18) Notice first the parallel structure of the verse: "Therefore just as one man's trespas led to condemnation for all [humans],
so one man's act of righteousnes leads to justification and life for [them] all.
It is not hard to find if you are looking.
About 24 years...
It's okay...people add stuff into the Word all the time...
crakjak
04-03-2007, 10:21 PM
About 24 years...
It's okay...people add stuff into the Word all the time...
Thanks for your input.
crakjak
04-26-2008, 11:16 PM
Did you know Origen taught unconditional salvation also?
Is God a just God? Can God lie?
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Let post the verses following this one and see "who":
Isaiah 33:14-18 (King James Version)
14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
17Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
18Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
Apparently, God does use "fire" to prune and refine His creation.
Bro-Larry
04-27-2008, 10:29 PM
Well, it only matters how the BIBLE uses the word. No, hate in the Bible does not mean to love less and you are espousing a vile doctrine from the very pit of Hell (not the city in Michigan) - a kind of mushy, "God loves everybody, there is no sin, God is not angry with the wicked" false gospel common in so many churches today.
The Greek word used in the passage I referred to has the following meanings and ONLY the following meanings:
to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
to be hated, detested
Again, it was GOD who said "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated." You CANNOT get around that.
Do you apply the above definition to the word "hate" in Luke 14:26?
Do you hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters?
crakjak
04-27-2008, 11:02 PM
Do you apply the above definition to the word "hate" in Luke 14:26?
Do you hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters?
Hey, Bro.
Chan no longer posts here, he was a regular, don't know what happened to him. I really miss him, even bought a book that he wrote on the Godhead.
Bro-Larry
04-28-2008, 04:16 PM
Hey, Bro.
Chan no longer posts here, he was a regular, don't know what happened to him. I really miss him, even bought a book that he wrote on the Godhead.
LOL I didn't even notice the dates when I posted. Ha Ha on me.
Joelel
04-28-2008, 06:38 PM
....or, is He constrained by the very nature of His being, is God bound to love and save all?
If God loves you and desires the very best for you, how could sending your children, parents or other loved ones to "endless torment" or extermination, be consistent with loving and desiring the best for you?? Will He not instead by His love and power bring all your loved ones to salvation as well?
Is wiping your memory of your loved ones loving? Why instead wouldn't God simply continue pursuing your loved ones until they surrender to His irresistible love.
Crakjak,Is every word in the bible true ? Does it mean what it says word for word ?
Joelel
04-28-2008, 07:44 PM
Of course God hates evil, because it is in such contrast to His holiness. But He also loves His creation, and to say Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world is of the worst heresy. I hate evil but there is not one human being that I know of that I believe deserves billions and billions of years of endless torment without any hope of rehabilitation. The doctrine of eternal damnation without any hope of every being redeemed is the source of more evil and wickedness than we can imagine. The wars that we are witnessing around the globe today are rooted in this ungodly, manmade doctrince that is the root of almost every religion in the world. Where is the good news, what is the gospel??? Your gospel has primarily horrible news, except for a few elite it is the worst possible news.
Does God have the power to save and redeem His creation?
Does God Will to save all His creation?
Or like Calvin and Chan believes, does God HATE the vast majority of HIS creation?
How will God save these people if they die the second death? By the way,people being tormented with out end is very false.
Rev.020:012And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
020:013And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 020:014And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(cease to exist)020:015And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Heb.009:027And as it is appointed unto men once to die,(cease to exist) (In the flesh) but after this the judgment
Rev.002:011He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death (cease to exist)
James005:020Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,(cease to exist) and shall hide a multitude of sins
Rom.006:021What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.(cease to exist) 006:022But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
006:023For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Math.10 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy(cease to exist) both soul and body in hell.
Luke20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die(cease to exist)any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection
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