UPCI Mega Churches???

[Minister_WD]

The Hartford Seminary's Hartford Institute for Religion Research, is one of the world’s leading and most respected religious research institutions. Its researchers keep a database on mega churches in the US. They define a mega church in part as having a weekly attendance of 2000 people.

Here is the link to the database: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cgi-bin/mega/db.pl?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&sb=2

According to its database, it lists the following 15 UPCI (and now some former UPCI) congregations as mega churches out of 1360 nationwide:

Christian Life Center
Nathaniel Haney - Stockton, CA
Attendance 5000

Calvary Tabernacle
Paul Mooney - Indianapolis, IN
Attendance 3000

Revival Center
Randy Keyes - Modesto, CA
Attendance 3000

Life Tabernacle
James Kilgore - Houston, TX
Attendance 3000

The Pentecostals of Alexandria
Anthony Mangun - Alexandria, LA
Attendance: 2800

Truth Tabernacle
Vaughn Morton - Fresno, CA
Attendance 2500

Woodlawn Pentecostal Church
James Carney - Columbia, MS
Attendance 2500

Apostolic Church of Auburn Hills
Steve Warman - Auburn Hills, MI
Attendance 2200

First Pentecostal Church
Chris Craft – Jackson, MS
Attendance 2050

New Life Tabernacle
Mike Mitchell - Brooklyn ,NY
Attendance 2050

The Pentecostals
Mark Foster - West Monroe, LA
Attendance 2050

Revival Tabernacle/The Anchor
James Larson San Diego, CA
Attendance 2000

The Pentecostals
Mark Hattabaugh - Cooper City, FL
Attendance 2000

East Valley Pentecostal Church
John Nelson - San Jose, CA
Attendance 2000

The Rock Church
Myles Young - Elk Grove, CA
Attendance 2000

I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.

[Digging4Truth]

Perhaps the numbers given were "evangelistically speaking"

[Sam]

...
I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.

Well, some have a sanctified term for lying.
We call it " evangelistically speaking."

[Weary Pilgrim]

Someone lied to this reseacher.

[SecretWarrior]

True...

I doubt that CLC runs 2500 if that....


and also Mortons... last I heard it was possibly 1000....

[Pastor Keith]

The Hartford Seminary's Hartford Institute for Religion Research, is one of the world’s leading and most respected religious research institutions. Its researchers keep a database on mega churches in the US. They define a mega church in part as having a weekly attendance of 2000 people.

Here is the link to the database: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cgi-bin/mega/db.pl?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&sb=2

According to its database, it lists the following 15 UPCI (and now some former UPCI) congregations as mega churches out of 1360 nationwide:

Christian Life Center
Nathaniel Haney - Stockton, CA
Attendance 5000

Calvary Tabernacle
Paul Mooney - Indianapolis, IN
Attendance 3000

Revival Center
Randy Keyes - Modesto, CA
Attendance 3000

Life Tabernacle
James Kilgore - Houston, TX
Attendance 3000

The Pentecostals of Alexandria
Anthony Mangun - Alexandria, LA
Attendance: 2800

Truth Tabernacle
Vaughn Morton - Fresno, CA
Attendance 2500

Woodlawn Pentecostal Church
James Carney - Columbia, MS
Attendance 2500

Apostolic Church of Auburn Hills
Steve Warman - Auburn Hills, MI
Attendance 2200

First Pentecostal Church
Chris Craft – Jackson, MS
Attendance 2050

New Life Tabernacle
Mike Mitchell - Brooklyn ,NY
Attendance 2050

The Pentecostals
Mark Foster - West Monroe, LA
Attendance 2050

Revival Tabernacle/The Anchor
James Larson San Diego, CA
Attendance 2000

The Pentecostals
Mark Hattabaugh - Cooper City, FL
Attendance 2000

East Valley Pentecostal Church
John Nelson - San Jose, CA
Attendance 2000

The Rock Church
Myles Young - Elk Grove, CA
Attendance 2000

I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.

One church that I was familar was, anyone who gave anything in the offering during a said year, was considered a member.

[chseeads]

It says "weekly attendance"..... Maybe that's kinda adding up how many people are there at each service through the week....

Like Calvary Tabernacle, the times I've been there and noticed their attendance board, it'll be like 1,200 or so for Sunday school or whatever....

[Theresa]

jackson 2050?

not hardly

[StMark]

I think what this might be is their Easter Sunday attendance.

The UPC calls each church after Easter Sunday to give a report.

[Timmy]

If it helps you feel any better, I bet a lot of the AG numbers are inflated, too! ;)

[ChicagoPastor]

I just hung up with one of the Pastors and he's laughing!
He has no clue who gave these people those numbers for his church...

[rgcraig]

I just hung up with one of the Pastors and he's laughing!
He has no clue who gave these people those numbers for his church...

Looks like they only had three numbers they used - 3000, 2050, 2000 - maybe those are codes for something and not the attendance - lol!

[Cindy]

How does anyone pastor a church that big? Must be some busy preachers.

[revrandy]

Maybe they meant square footage??? :)

[revrandy]

They were probably reading some old Easter Sunday School reports...because those numbers were all true....:)

[StMark]

They were probably reading some old Easter Sunday School reports...because those numbers were all true....:)



A lot of churches have Easter productions and full weekend events on Easter and add all 3-4 services up to one total

[tstew]

Maybe they meant square footage??? :)

:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny

[Jethro Bodine]

The Hartford Seminary's Hartford Institute for Religion Research, is one of the world’s leading and most respected religious research institutions. Its researchers keep a database on mega churches in the US. They define a mega church in part as having a weekly attendance of 2000 people.

Here is the link to the database: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cgi-bin/mega/db.pl?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&sb=2

According to its database, it lists the following 15 UPCI (and now some former UPCI) congregations as mega churches out of 1360 nationwide:

Christian Life Center
Nathaniel Haney - Stockton, CA
Attendance 5000

Calvary Tabernacle
Paul Mooney - Indianapolis, IN
Attendance 3000

Revival Center
Randy Keyes - Modesto, CA
Attendance 3000

Life Tabernacle
James Kilgore - Houston, TX
Attendance 3000

The Pentecostals of Alexandria
Anthony Mangun - Alexandria, LA
Attendance: 2800

Truth Tabernacle
Vaughn Morton - Fresno, CA
Attendance 2500

Woodlawn Pentecostal Church
James Carney - Columbia, MS
Attendance 2500

Apostolic Church of Auburn Hills
Steve Warman - Auburn Hills, MI
Attendance 2200

First Pentecostal Church
Chris Craft – Jackson, MS
Attendance 2050

New Life Tabernacle
Mike Mitchell - Brooklyn ,NY
Attendance 2050

The Pentecostals
Mark Foster - West Monroe, LA
Attendance 2050

Revival Tabernacle/The Anchor
James Larson San Diego, CA
Attendance 2000

The Pentecostals
Mark Hattabaugh - Cooper City, FL
Attendance 2000

East Valley Pentecostal Church
John Nelson - San Jose, CA
Attendance 2000

The Rock Church
Myles Young - Elk Grove, CA
Attendance 2000

I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.


What a joke, i work at one of these churches and its NEVER been that big. Matter of fact the number is off by at least 70%!

[ReformedDave]

The is NO WAY that Jim Larson's church is 2OOO!!! Maybe 500 max on a Sunday.

[StMark]

The is NO WAY that Jim Larson's church is 2OOO!!! Maybe 500 max on a Sunday.


That's why I said those are Easter Sunday totals (remember "king of kings"?)

[ReformedDave]

I doubt it even then......

[revrandy]

If a Church runs over 300 that is considered a MEGA Church in the UPC isn't it???

[Rhoni]

Perhaps the numbers given were "evangelistically speaking"

I think they are inflated - there are very few mega churches in UPCI.

Blessings, Rhoni

[chseeads]

If a Church runs over 300 that is considered a MEGA Church in the UPC isn't it???

It definitely would be around here.

It's all a matter of perspective.

[berkeley]

and also Mortons... last I heard it was possibly 1000....

did they count the daughter works too?? :couch

[TRFrance]

I'm surprised Johnny Godair's church in NC isn't no the list. I've always heard they had a pretty big congregation.

[Threads]

I would have to agree that the numbers are very inflated. For example, Fresno dosn't have that type of capacity. Now if your talking about the conference they have each year, yes, but not the church as a whole. Same for Stockton. they have never had 5000 for a regular service. Now for a conference, maybe. The rock is about right. Give and take a service or two. Don't know much about the other churches in Cali. Bro Mooney, When he has all the students and staff and church together, maybe, but if you have ever watched a service of his, that church is never full. Just my input. :whistle

[jaxfam6]

maybe the number reflects how many they can actually seat in service on a Sunday. =) Some seem to have big aspirations, even if they never reach that number they consider themselves as pastoring that many. It is good for their self esteem.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I'm surprised Johnny Godair's church in NC isn't no the list. I've always heard they had a pretty big congregation.

Their church is big, but not that big-- I remember their prayer room area not being that big also.


I miss NC UPCI churches.

There was a young Pastor that is a former Marine that went to the same church as I in Jacksonville. His church is Newport, I think, but I don't remember his name now.

[Tim Rutledge]

Their church is big, but not that big-- I remember their prayer room area not being that big also.


I miss NC UPCI churches.

There was a young Pastor that is a former Marine that went to the same church as I in Jacksonville. His church is Newport, I think, but I don't remember his name now.

Br. Ted Erskine Pastors in Newport NC.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Br. Ted Erskine Pastors in Newport NC.

That's his name!! That's him!!!


I always admired him. One we're both former Marines, though I wasn't at Pastor Gilbert's church at the same time he was in the Corps.

We knew some of the same Saints!

I still sing to myself a song I heard him sing back in 1998.


"I have a God who with His angels watches over me.
I have a God who keeps my enemies beneath my feet.
My God is with me when I'm sick and when I'm feeling well.
I have a God, I have a God and my God doesn't fail."

That song has been so encouraging to me and I've only heard sung once, and that by him.


Plus I liked his preaching style. I wanted to join his church, I felt drawn to him, but his church was too far from base, plus I was already a member of the church in Jacksonville.

[lookupsocial]

I'm surprised Johnny Godair's church in NC isn't no the list. I've always heard they had a pretty big congregation.


Raleigh (Wayne Huntley) and Durham (Johnny Godair) have always had the largest churches in NC. Glenn Eliseo has the facility for it now, and soon, Charlotte will have new facilities as well.

[Thinking]

This sort of thing literally makes me sick at my stomach. I'm a part of the UPC, and love it dearly, but I shudder when I hear of so many cases of dishonesty. How can such be even named among us?

Blatant exaggeration is dished out over our pulpits and we laugh and call it "evangelistically speaking," but I tell you it is far from a laughing matter. Dubious stories are flung about as freely as are scattered leaves on an autumn day: in response we smirk and grin and say, "Oh, you know so and so. That's just how he is."

I'm sinful and imperfect, I know that, and have no right to castigate the ministry. But as a helpless sheep, I feel betrayed by such shenanigans.

[Steve Epley]

The Hartford Seminary's Hartford Institute for Religion Research, is one of the world’s leading and most respected religious research institutions. Its researchers keep a database on mega churches in the US. They define a mega church in part as having a weekly attendance of 2000 people.

Here is the link to the database: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cgi-bin/mega/db.pl?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&sb=2

According to its database, it lists the following 15 UPCI (and now some former UPCI) congregations as mega churches out of 1360 nationwide:

Christian Life Center
Nathaniel Haney - Stockton, CA
Attendance 5000

Calvary Tabernacle
Paul Mooney - Indianapolis, IN
Attendance 3000

Revival Center
Randy Keyes - Modesto, CA
Attendance 3000

Life Tabernacle
James Kilgore - Houston, TX
Attendance 3000

The Pentecostals of Alexandria
Anthony Mangun - Alexandria, LA
Attendance: 2800

Truth Tabernacle
Vaughn Morton - Fresno, CA
Attendance 2500

Woodlawn Pentecostal Church
James Carney - Columbia, MS
Attendance 2500

Apostolic Church of Auburn Hills
Steve Warman - Auburn Hills, MI
Attendance 2200

First Pentecostal Church
Chris Craft – Jackson, MS
Attendance 2050

New Life Tabernacle
Mike Mitchell - Brooklyn ,NY
Attendance 2050

The Pentecostals
Mark Foster - West Monroe, LA
Attendance 2050

Revival Tabernacle/The Anchor
James Larson San Diego, CA
Attendance 2000

The Pentecostals
Mark Hattabaugh - Cooper City, FL
Attendance 2000

East Valley Pentecostal Church
John Nelson - San Jose, CA
Attendance 2000

The Rock Church
Myles Young - Elk Grove, CA
Attendance 2000

I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.

Isn't it odd folks always OVERCOUNT never UNDERCOUNT>

[tstew]

One thing to keep in mind is how old this list is. I saw this several years back. Some of those churches may have been considerably closer to those numbers back then. I think that it would still be a stretch, but that is something to consider. I would be particularly interested in how those numbers are reached. I know some non-denominal churches that boast memberships far in excess of what they can seat or what they see every week. If you're going strictly by the role and who has officially joined the church, the number may be different than what you see in any given service.

[Tim Rutledge]

That's his name!! That's him!!!


I always admired him. One we're both former Marines, though I wasn't at Pastor Gilbert's church at the same time he was in the Corps.

We knew some of the same Saints!

I still sing to myself a song I heard him sing back in 1998.


"I have a God who with His angels watches over me.
I have a God who keeps my enemies beneath my feet.
My God is with me when I'm sick and when I'm feeling well.
I have a God, I have a God and my God doesn't fail."

That song has been so encouraging to me and I've only heard sung once, and that by him.


Plus I liked his preaching style. I wanted to join his church, I felt drawn to him, but his church was too far from base, plus I was already a member of the church in Jacksonville.

Br. Erskine come's to my home church often. He's WPF now. He can preach, for sure.

[Blaylock]

The Hartford Seminary's Hartford Institute for Religion Research, is one of the world’s leading and most respected religious research institutions. Its researchers keep a database on mega churches in the US. They define a mega church in part as having a weekly attendance of 2000 people.

Here is the link to the database: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cgi-bin/mega/db.pl?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&sb=2

According to its database, it lists the following 15 UPCI (and now some former UPCI) congregations as mega churches out of 1360 nationwide:

Christian Life Center
Nathaniel Haney - Stockton, CA
Attendance 5000

Calvary Tabernacle
Paul Mooney - Indianapolis, IN
Attendance 3000

Revival Center
Randy Keyes - Modesto, CA
Attendance 3000

Life Tabernacle
James Kilgore - Houston, TX
Attendance 3000

The Pentecostals of Alexandria
Anthony Mangun - Alexandria, LA
Attendance: 2800

Truth Tabernacle
Vaughn Morton - Fresno, CA
Attendance 2500

Woodlawn Pentecostal Church
James Carney - Columbia, MS
Attendance 2500

Apostolic Church of Auburn Hills
Steve Warman - Auburn Hills, MI
Attendance 2200
First Pentecostal Church
Chris Craft – Jackson, MS
Attendance 2050

New Life Tabernacle
Mike Mitchell - Brooklyn ,NY
Attendance 2050

The Pentecostals
Mark Foster - West Monroe, LA
Attendance 2050

Revival Tabernacle/The Anchor
James Larson San Diego, CA
Attendance 2000

The Pentecostals
Mark Hattabaugh - Cooper City, FL
Attendance 2000

East Valley Pentecostal Church
John Nelson - San Jose, CA
Attendance 2000

The Rock Church
Myles Young - Elk Grove, CA
Attendance 2000

I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.

Funny ...Auburn Hills runs more than that!!!!

[commonsense]

My only comment would be surprise that we had any "mega" UPC churches. Over 1000, yes; over 3000...I don't think so!

As I recall Landmark in Denver runs 1000+ on a regular basis.

[Thinking]

The person who posted the information said he thought the figures were from 2007. They would have to be fairly recent since Myles Young is listed as pastor from the Rock Church.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Br. Erskine come's to my home church often. He's WPF now. He can preach, for sure.

I thought I read he left the UPCI. Why?

You know him personally? I wish I got to know him personally! He knew Pastor Gilbert, one of my former Pastors.


I'd love to hear either one of them preach again! Did you ever know Pastor Gilbert? Are you UPC? Do you know anyone down in Jacksonville?

I learned and experienced a lot while attending the UPC in Jacksonville.

[bkstokes]

Since when did the church in West Monroe run so many people. I haven't been there in years -- but i can't imagine that many going there.

[revrandy]

I would have to agree that the numbers are very inflated. For example, Fresno dosn't have that type of capacity. Now if your talking about the conference they have each year, yes, but not the church as a whole. Same for Stockton. they have never had 5000 for a regular service. Now for a conference, maybe. The rock is about right. Give and take a service or two. Don't know much about the other churches in Cali. Bro Mooney, When he has all the students and staff and church together, maybe, but if you have ever watched a service of his, that church is never full. Just my input. :whistle

I've been to the Rock but it's been about a year or so since I was there...if they had 800 I'd be suprised....unless they've grown 1200+ in one year???

[Baron1710]

I've been to the Rock but it's been about a year or so since I was there...if they had 800 I'd be suprised....unless they've grown 1200+ in one year???

My wife's grandmother attends one of the churches on the list and she was just commenting the other day about how small the church had become.

[Neck]

I just hung up with one of the Pastors and he's laughing!
He has no clue who gave these people those numbers for his church...


When they have 2 services on Sunday. Such as a Sunday morning and evening. They add the 2 services up and call it we ministered to 2500 this weekend.

[Tim Rutledge]

I thought I read he left the UPCI. Why?

You know him personally? I wish I got to know him personally! He knew Pastor Gilbert, one of my former Pastors.


I'd love to hear either one of them preach again! Did you ever know Pastor Gilbert? Are you UPC? Do you know anyone down in Jacksonville?

I learned and experienced a lot while attending the UPC in Jacksonville.

Yes he left the UPC. I won't speculate on his exact reasons for leaving the upc, and going with the wpf.

I know him, he's been coming to our church for years. God has majorly blessed their congregation.

I never heard of Br. Gilbert, and I've never been in Jacksonville.

Br. Erskine is a fine man and highly anointed of God. Have you heard his message "Shout it out"?

And were not UPC anymore. Were WPF.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Yes he left the UPC. I won't speculate on his exact reasons for leaving the upc, and going with the wpf.

I know him, he's been coming to our church for years. God has majorly blessed their congregation.

I never heard of Br. Gilbert, and I've never been in Jacksonville.

Br. Erskine is a fine man and highly anointed of God. Have you heard his message "Shout it out"?

And were not UPC anymore. Were WPF.


No.

Ask Bro Erskine about Pastor Gilbert-- you'll hear nothing but good things about him.

His wife, now, she was something else!!! :)

They were both dear people to me. They're probably in Heaven now. They were elderly.

[CC1]

jackson 2050?

not hardly

That is what I was thinking. I was last there a couple of years ago but counted only around 400 people on a Sunday morning.

I have been told they have had growth since then but certainly not four times that number.

I would guess FPC JAX runs around 600, maybe 800 max.

[tstew]

The person who posted the information said he thought the figures were from 2007. They would have to be fairly recent since Myles Young is listed as pastor from the Rock Church.

I', pretty sure I saw this a few years back, but I could be mistaken. Either way, I do think that there may sometimes be a discrepancy between how many official "members" a church has on its roll, and how many faithful attenders they have every service. Now some of this could just be wild exageration, but I know that at our church there would be a somewhat significant discrepency.

[jaxfam6]

The church I attend has two congregations. We have a Spanish congregation and an English one. The English has grown by leaps and bounds in the last 4 years. We have a stead 225 to 250. Our Spanish was running, and I am not sure if it still does since all the illegal scare around here, around 800 to 850 regularly. Now we could easily have almost 325 on a special service in the English and near 1000 for the Spanish. Those are not often but at least a couple times a year. So do we take the 1325 as our number????

=)

I know, we had special services over a weekend and had almost 3500 come through in that weekend. Can we use that number instead?

please can we? =)

[LaGirl]

Since when did the church in West Monroe run so many people. I haven't been there in years -- but i can't imagine that many going there.

i was wondering the same thing....

[Jethro Bodine]

This list is so bogus. I have been in numerous of these churches and there is no way they run this much. Some of these are off by at least 50%.

I would like to know who gave these people these numbers. Do they come from the church themselves? If so, there are some issues with honesty.

[revrandy]

This list is so bogus. I have been in numerous of these churches and there is no way they run this much. Some of these are off by at least 50%.

I would like to know who gave these people these numbers. Do they come from the church themselves? If so, there are some issues with honesty.

I think the Pentecostal Herald listed some of these attendances from Easter Sundays....if I can recall...

[George]

The Hartford Seminary's Hartford Institute for Religion Research, is one of the world’s leading and most respected religious research institutions. Its researchers keep a database on mega churches in the US. They define a mega church in part as having a weekly attendance of 2000 people.

Here is the link to the database: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cgi-bin/mega/db.pl?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&sb=2

According to its database, it lists the following 15 UPCI (and now some former UPCI) congregations as mega churches out of 1360 nationwide:

Christian Life Center
Nathaniel Haney - Stockton, CA
Attendance 5000 more like 1000 - 1500

Calvary Tabernacle
Paul Mooney - Indianapolis, IN
Attendance 3000 if you count every daughter work and churches college boys preach at each week-end

Revival Center
Randy Keyes - Modesto, CA
Attendance 3000 LOL more like 600 - 800

Life Tabernacle
James Kilgore - Houston, TX
Attendance 3000 maybe 1500

The Pentecostals of Alexandria
Anthony Mangun - Alexandria, LA
Attendance: 2800 closest on this list to being right

Truth Tabernacle
Vaughn Morton - Fresno, CA
Attendance 2500 maybe 1,000

Woodlawn Pentecostal Church
James Carney - Columbia, MS
Attendance 2500 not familiar with this one

Apostolic Church of Auburn Hills
Steve Warman - Auburn Hills, MI
Attendance 2200 not familiar with this one

First Pentecostal Church
Chris Craft – Jackson, MS
Attendance 2050 maybe 600 - 800

New Life Tabernacle
Mike Mitchell - Brooklyn ,NY
Attendance 2050 if you count every person they hand a track to

The Pentecostals
Mark Foster - West Monroe, LA
Attendance 2050 not sure

Revival Tabernacle/The Anchor
James Larson San Diego, CA
Attendance 2000 500 would be stretching

The Pentecostals
Mark Hattabaugh - Cooper City, FL
Attendance 2000 800???

East Valley Pentecostal Church
John Nelson - San Jose, CA
Attendance 2000 1100 counting their Spanish congregation

The Rock Church
Myles Young - Elk Grove, CA
Attendance 2000 never over 1,000 and that is stretching

I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.

My opinion is in red. This list is a joke!

[Silent Service]

Cooper City is way off by a multiple.

So is Larsons. It is a joke among some UPC churches in San Diego that when they sold their building and renamed it the Anchor attendance sunk just like one, they shed alot of folks and momentum. If they break 700 i'd be shocked based on the fact i was there a year ago during a normal Sunday.

Calvary is way off too.. if you look at summer attendance when IBC isnt in session you will be super luckly to break 900 including all the kids in Sunday school on a Sunday morning.

Life Tab in Houston just shed alot of members, but they have also gained some too with their refocusing. That one would be hard to call.

Pity other major indepenent apostolic megaworks like Pentecostal Tabernacle of North Miami (easily over 1500), North Park in San Diego (1100ish), Grace Apostolic in Indianapolis (PAW about 900ish), Promiseland and its daughter church and many others werent mentioned.

[Steve Epley]

I think we might read the list wrong it says weekly and if you had 500 and had 3 or 4 services a week it might come to that number?

[Silent Service]

Where is Apopka and Brian Kensey on this list? Their church is nearly mega-size

[Silent Service]

Funny ...Auburn Hills runs more than that!!!!

Thats a good church. One of their church evangelists Don Lusk is a hero of mine in some ways for being a home bible study soul winner and not just a sack of air like alot of traveling guys.

[Michael Phelps]

Thats a good church. One of their church evangelists Don Lusk is a hero of mine in some ways for being a home bible study soul winner and not just a sack of air like alot of traveling guys.

THis is true, Don Lusk is one of the greatest soul winners I know. Maybe THE greatest!

[Silent Service]

THis is true, Don Lusk is one of the greatest soul winners I know. Maybe THE greatest!

Does he still go there? I havent heard much of him lately.

[Michael Phelps]

Does he still go there? I havent heard much of him lately.

Not sure, I think so. I haven't attended there in several years, and actually haven't been back to visit since they've been in the new building.

I've known Don for several years, and the transformation was amazing in him.

[ReformedDave]

My opinion is in red. This list is a joke!

Exactly!

[revrandy]

A number of those churches have lost a lot of folks in the past few years....

[jaxfam6]

Cooper City is way off by a multiple.

So is Larsons. It is a joke among some UPC churches in San Diego that when they sold their building and renamed it the Anchor attendance sunk just like one, they shed alot of folks and momentum. If they break 700 i'd be shocked based on the fact i was there a year ago during a normal Sunday.

Calvary is way off too.. if you look at summer attendance when IBC isnt in session you will be super luckly to break 900 including all the kids in Sunday school on a Sunday morning.

Life Tab in Houston just shed alot of members, but they have also gained some too with their refocusing. That one would be hard to call.

Pity other major indepenent apostolic megaworks like Pentecostal Tabernacle of North Miami (easily over 1500), North Park in San Diego (1100ish), Grace Apostolic in Indianapolis (PAW about 900ish), Promiseland and its daughter church and many others werent mentioned.

That is because they did not inflate their numbers when they listed them. The others? well not sure what they did but no one here seems to think the numbers are any where near accurate except maybe PoA.

[jaxfam6]

I think we might read the list wrong it says weekly and if you had 500 and had 3 or 4 services a week it might come to that number?

Okay Steve you are really not helping things trying to 'accomodate' those figures.

[jaxfam6]

Funny ...Auburn Hills runs more than that!!!!

I have friends who are very close to the Warman's. I could ask what the real numbers are. I know it is large but I am not sure how large.

[TRFrance]

And Bishop Bonner's church in NYC, Refuge Temple, easily has 3,000 members. I'm not sure why that database doesn't even have them listed.

And New Life Tab/Mike Mitchell runs about 1300. Even his own website says that.

I thought Christian Life Center, Gaithersburg, MD (Libby) would be on there too.

But in the end, these man-made lists aren't that big a deal anyway. God is the one who's keeping accurate count.

[ReformedDave]

So is Larsons. It is a joke among some UPC churches in San Diego that when they sold their building and renamed it the Anchor attendance sunk just like one, they shed alot of folks and momentum. If they break 700 i'd be shocked based on the fact i was there a year ago during a normal Sunday.




They didn't quite sell their building.........

[George]

Cooper City is way off by a multiple.

So is Larsons. It is a joke among some UPC churches in San Diego that when they sold their building and renamed it the Anchor attendance sunk just like one, they shed alot of folks and momentum. If they break 700 i'd be shocked based on the fact i was there a year ago during a normal Sunday.

Calvary is way off too.. if you look at summer attendance when IBC isnt in session you will be super luckly to break 900 including all the kids in Sunday school on a Sunday morning.

Life Tab in Houston just shed alot of members, but they have also gained some too with their refocusing. That one would be hard to call.

Pity other major indepenent apostolic megaworks like Pentecostal Tabernacle of North Miami (easily over 1500), North Park in San Diego (1100ish), Grace Apostolic in Indianapolis (PAW about 900ish), Promiseland and its daughter church and many others werent mentioned.

I think you better check that out. From what I have heard, they were going to sell but it didn't finalize. They did name it The Anchor but most people still call it R.T.

[ReformedDave]

I think you better check that out. From what I have heard, they were going to sell but it didn't finalize. They did name it The Anchor but most people still call it R.T.

Correct. Didn't finalize.

[Thinking]

Why are some large churches becoming smaller, while some churches with less people are growing bigger? Is it leadership, location, doctrine?

[Steve Epley]

There are some very large Black Apostolic churches that no doubt would be considered mega easily.

[George]

Correct. Didn't finalize.

And that's probably a good thing!!! I doubt they could have financially handled the other location. :whistle

[ReformedDave]

And that's probably a good thing!!! I doubt they could have financially handled the other location. :whistle

Agreed. The other group that moved in has made a huge complex there. You could say they are miles ahead.....:ursofunny

[George]

Agreed. The other group that moved in has made a huge complex there. You could say they are miles ahead.....:ursofunny

LOL :dance

[SoCaliUPC]

The is NO WAY that Jim Larson's church is 2OOO!!! Maybe 500 max on a Sunday.

Agreed....and that is where I attend. We have never had 2000.

I have no clue who gave these numbers.

[SoCaliUPC]

That's why I said those are Easter Sunday totals (remember "king of kings"?)

If this was the formula...we would have had over that amount. So would POA. Once again, 2000 is a very exaggerated number and would never have been given out. Do not know who gave these numbers out.

[tstew]

If this was the formula...we would have had over that amount. So would POA. Once again, 2000 is a very exaggerated number and would never have been given out. Do not know who gave these numbers out.

Yeah, when you look at the website, they kind of allow almost anyone to submit info. All of those numbers look off to me, but I'm not sure that each of those churches officially submitted that number to the site. They actually read more like the capacities of these churches.

[Blaylock]

Does he still go there? I havent heard much of him lately.

Don is there and still kicking.

He is the real deal.

Ask Bishop Baker why they have built the new building and he will tell you one of the biggest reasons is simply .... Don Lusk.

[Blaylock]

I have friends who are very close to the Warman's. I could ask what the real numbers are. I know it is large but I am not sure how large.

On a Sunday morning service they average about 2300.

This is pretty accurate information.

[Pentecostal]

As a leader in one of these quoted "Mega Churches" I cannot believe the replies I see here.
First of all, no one from our church has "lied" to these people about our numbers. Actually, no one from Harvard has ever been to our church, investigated or ever contacted any of us regarding this or asked us about our membership.
Be careful at jumping so quick to judge. As Jesus asked us to.
Instead of believing everything you read as "Doctrine," please consider the source, and don't assume people are trying to "evangelistically" increase their numbers for some kind of personal aggrandizement. I realize, there are some who do, but, you don't believe everything until you check out a matter.
Remember what God hates:
"Hands that shed innocent blood?"
"Those that sow discord among the brethren"
I humbly ask you to forgive all these churches if you feel they have "lied" but I also ask that you consider that they probably (as we) did not have anything to do with this report.

[aak1972]

My opinion is in red. This list is a joke!
I agree! Having attended POA this is an accurate number.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The Pentecostals
Mark Hattabaugh - Cooper City, FL
Attendance 2000

I believe these numbers are from 2007. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these attendance numbers? I am somewhat familiar with the churches in California and the numbers seem to be very inflated.

The Pentecostals of Cooper City has never had 2000 saints attending.

I believe the number is around 400 on a Sunday.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

[Steve Epley]

The Pentecostals of Cooper City has never had 2000 saints attending.

I believe the number is around 400 on a Sunday.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

The building would not even begin to seat that many.

[Timmy]

The Pentecostals of Cooper City has never had 2000 saints attending.

I believe the number is around 400 on a Sunday.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

EB, where ya been? Good to see ya!

[mfblume]

We call it " evangelistically speaking."

I like the term evangelastically".

[Consapostolic1]

Cooper City is way off by a multiple.

So is Larsons. It is a joke among some UPC churches in San Diego that when they sold their building and renamed it the Anchor attendance sunk just like one, they shed alot of folks and momentum. If they break 700 i'd be shocked based on the fact i was there a year ago during a normal Sunday.

Calvary is way off too.. if you look at summer attendance when IBC isnt in session you will be super luckly to break 900 including all the kids in Sunday school on a Sunday morning.

Life Tab in Houston just shed alot of members, but they have also gained some too with their refocusing. That one would be hard to call.

Pity other major indepenent apostolic megaworks like Pentecostal Tabernacle of North Miami (easily over 1500), North Park in San Diego (1100ish), Grace Apostolic in Indianapolis (PAW about 900ish), Promiseland and its daughter church and many others werent mentioned.

Does anyone know what caused the attendence to decline?

[Barb]

On a Sunday morning service they average about 2300.

This is pretty accurate information.

I do not tag the folks as they come in, but I would have to agree. Your number sounds about right...

[OilCityCajun]

As a leader in one of these quoted "Mega Churches" I cannot believe the replies I see here.
First of all, no one from our church has "lied" to these people about our numbers. Actually, no one from Harvard has ever been to our church, investigated or ever contacted any of us regarding this or asked us about our membership.
Be careful at jumping so quick to judge. As Jesus asked us to.
Instead of believing everything you read as "Doctrine," please consider the source, and don't assume people are trying to "evangelistically" increase their numbers for some kind of personal aggrandizement. I realize, there are some who do, but, you don't believe everything until you check out a matter.
Remember what God hates:
"Hands that shed innocent blood?"
"Those that sow discord among the brethren"
I humbly ask you to forgive all these churches if you feel they have "lied" but I also ask that you consider that they probably (as we) did not have anything to do with this report.
:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

[pelathais]

Does anyone know what caused the attendence to decline?

Yes.

[ReformedDave]

Yes.

They lost their choir director??????:toofunny

[GodIsGreat]

The Rock Church runs about 700-1000 on a good Sunday night. I believe that higher number is all the other works combined.

What I find funny is some of the saints of TRC, feel that The Rock Church is in direct competition with Pastor Holmes Church.

The truth is that The Rock Church is known for their leadership, while Pastor Holmes church is known for prayer.

The spirit of prayer bleeds through Pastor Holmes when he preaches.

Wilson and Young seem to think that they will win their city by having a church full of people with degrees. Both of them have said this over the pulpit. I was shocked!

I always thought that cities were won through a apostolic church where God IS in the driver seat (not by words but really in the driver seat), not by impressing a sin sick city with how "smart" their saints are by showing off a bunch of degrees.

[Barb]

The Rock Church runs about 700-1000 on a good Sunday night. I believe that higher number is all the other works combined.

What I find funny is some of the saints of TRC, feel that The Rock Church is in direct competition with Pastor Holmes Church.

The truth is that The Rock Church is known for their leadership, while Pastor Holmes church is known for prayer.

The spirit of prayer bleeds through Pastor Holmes when he preaches.

Wilson and Young seem to think that they will win their city by having a church full of people with degrees. Both of them have said this over the pulpit. I was shocked!

I always thought that cities were won through a apostolic church where God IS in the driver seat (not by words but really in the driver seat), not by impressing a sin sick city with how "smart" their saints are by showing off a bunch of degrees.

Do you have an ax to grind with TRC?

[GodIsGreat]

Do you have an ax to grind with TRC?

No. "An ax to grind" is pretty heavy, so no.

What I stated is very true. When you have a preacher who feel free to utterly bash and make fun of other apostolic schools in comparison to AST to someone (me) within minutes of just meeting me.

When you began to hear things come over the pulpit as "the way to go" or as okay, when they were once preached (and still is being preached against) ... homosexuals being tolorated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent ...

I can go on and on. It gets very old. However, we (saints) have been trained to sit down and shut up.

An ax to grind?

No. Pretty sick of the carnality, ungodly personalities, bold hypocrisy, high mindedness etc.. Yes.

[Sister Alvear]

No. "An ax to grind" is pretty heavy, so no.

What I stated is very true. When you have a preacher who feel free to utterly bash and make fun of other apostolic schools in comparison to AST to someone (me) within minutes of just meeting me.

When you began to hear things come over the pulpit as "the way to go" or as okay, when they were once preached (and still is being preached against) ... homosexuals being tolorated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent ...

I can go on and on. It gets very old. However, we (saints) have been trained to sit down and shut up.

An ax to grind?



No. Pretty sick of the carnality, ungodly personalities, bold hypocrisy, high mindedness etc.. Yes.

Are you from the Rock church?

[houston]

No. "An ax to grind" is pretty heavy, so no.

What I stated is very true. When you have a preacher who feel free to utterly bash and make fun of other apostolic schools in comparison to AST to someone (me) within minutes of just meeting me.

When you began to hear things come over the pulpit as "the way to go" or as okay, when they were once preached (and still is being preached against) ... homosexuals being tolorated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent ...

I can go on and on. It gets very old. However, we (saints) have been trained to sit down and shut up.

An ax to grind?

No. Pretty sick of the carnality, ungodly personalities, bold hypocrisy, high mindedness etc.. Yes.
so, there are gay musicians at TRC?

[2theX]

:blahWell, some have a sanctified term for lying.
We call it " evangelistically speaking."
O Lord help us, We're making mistakes as fast as we can.

[Barb]

No. "An ax to grind" is pretty heavy, so no.

What I stated is very true. When you have a preacher who feel free to utterly bash and make fun of other apostolic schools in comparison to AST to someone (me) within minutes of just meeting me.

When you began to hear things come over the pulpit as "the way to go" or as okay, when they were once preached (and still is being preached against) ... homosexuals being tolorated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent ...

I can go on and on. It gets very old. However, we (saints) have been trained to sit down and shut up.

An ax to grind?

No. Pretty sick of the carnality, ungodly personalities, bold hypocrisy, high mindedness etc.. Yes.

Are you from the Rock church?

so, there are gay musicians at TRC?

PROOF for it all, please...

[2theX]

Im guessing Modesto Revival Center usually has about 5 to 900.
If there is a special event it can be up to 1500.
I wonder if they are counting daughter works?

[2theX]

Just curious, why your interested in the numbers?
Maybe you could start your own blog website for us to see?
G-d Bless

[Evang.Benincasa]

Homosexuals being tolerated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent?

GodIsGreat, I'm sorry, but the above statement is just an accusation based on your word and your word alone. Hence the reason the question was posed if you have an ax to grind? Coming to a forum, message board, Fake Book, etc and bringing this sort of stuff up doesn't prove anything. You are just blowing and going. Listen, you make a statement like Homosexuals being allowed on the platform blah, blah, blah, while never presenting evidence? This kills your whole post, weakening your credibility. If it is true then evidence would be provided. Other than that, you just make yourself look like a disgruntled church member, looking to kill those who offended you.

[Barb]

Homosexuals being tolerated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent?

GodIsGreat, I'm sorry, but the above statement is just an accusation based on your word and your word alone. Hence the reason the question was posed if you have an ax to grind? Coming to a forum, message board, Fake Book, etc and bringing this sort of stuff up doesn't prove anything. You are just blowing and going. Listen, you make a statement like Homosexuals being allowed on the platform blah, blah, blah, while never presenting evidence? This kills your whole post, weakening your credibility. If it is true then evidence would be provided. Other than that, you just make yourself look like a disgruntled church member, looking to kill those who offended you.

:yourock

[Barb]

PROOF for it all, please...

Homosexuals being tolerated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent?

GodIsGreat, I'm sorry, but the above statement is just an accusation based on your word and your word alone. Hence the reason the question was posed if you have an ax to grind? Coming to a forum, message board, Fake Book, etc and bringing this sort of stuff up doesn't prove anything. You are just blowing and going. Listen, you make a statement like Homosexuals being allowed on the platform blah, blah, blah, while never presenting evidence? This kills your whole post, weakening your credibility. If it is true then evidence would be provided. Other than that, you just make yourself look like a disgruntled church member, looking to kill those who offended you.No response? Hmmmm...guess the answer to this is in the omission.

Accusations are monumental UNTIL the push for proof, then it's just a matter of put up or clam up. :throwrock

[Evang.Benincasa]

No response? Hmmmm...guess the answer to this is in the omission.

Accusations are monumental UNTIL the push for proof, then it's just a matter of put up or clam up. :throwrock

GodIsGreat, this is exactly what I was talking about. The advent of internet brought a tsunami of communication unprecedented in our time. It enables all types of individuals to gain access to a watching and listening world. This comes with responsibility. Therefore when someone calls another on the carpet the accuser should be responsible to provide evidence for their accusations. If they can't, or if they won't, then they should be shooed away, as one would dismiss a disrespectful child. This doesn't mean that you are a bad person, just someone who wasn't prepared to put their money was their mouth was. I hope you understand.

:)

[Scott Pitta]

Being a retired deacon, I care not at all about Sunday attendance of any church.

[Barb]

GodIsGreat, this is exactly what I was talking about. The advent of internet brought a tsunami of communication unprecedented in our time. It enables all types of individuals to gain access to a watching and listening world. This comes with responsibility. Therefore when someone calls another on the carpet the accuser should be responsible to provide evidence for their accusations. If they can't, or if they won't, then they should be shooed away, as one would dismiss a disrespectful child. This doesn't mean that you are a bad person, just someone who wasn't prepared to put their money was their mouth was. I hope you understand.

:)

Once again, EB, :yourock

[Esaias]

Being a retired deacon, I care not at all about Sunday attendance of any church.

Must have been rough, having to throw out an unappreciated Dr Watts every Sunday, eh?

:heeheehee

[GodIsGreat]

Are you from the Rock church?

Yes!

[GodIsGreat]

so, there are gay musicians at TRC?

Currently, not to my knowledge. However, check the history for yourself. Go back a few years, find out who was the music director, and then locate him online now.

He was a homosexual then, and it wasn't a secret entirely.

[GodIsGreat]

PROOF for it all, please...

Barb, will you please tell me how to provide "proof" of church history a decade plus old?

TRC doesn't hand out membership cards. Do you have any bright ideas on how I can provide you proof that I attend TRC?

Lastly. I won't provide the name of the music director who ran the church music at TRC for a few years. According to a reliable source, their were more before him.

Simply go back into TRC's history. Find out who the music director was ... check on him now.

He was a homosexual then.

This is not uncommon in Apostolic churches.

[GodIsGreat]

Homosexuals being tolerated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent?

EB, you seem like you been around the church for some time.?.

Nonetheless, you act as if I'm speaking greek here, and this kind of thing doesn't happen.

GodIsGreat, I'm sorry, but the above statement is just an accusation based on your word and your word alone. Hence the reason the question was posed if you have an ax to grind? Coming to a forum, message board, Fake Book, etc and bringing this sort of stuff up doesn't prove anything. You are just blowing and going. Listen, you make a statement like Homosexuals being allowed on the platform blah, blah, blah, while never presenting evidence?

Read some of my responses on this thread.


This kills your whole post, weakening your credibility. If it is true then evidence would be provided.

Take sometime to think about how much has been discussed on this forum without proof.

There is perhaps 100x more topics discussed without proof then that with proof.

Does this mean that those who opened subjects without proof, are lairs? Or does it mean that your a bit misguided in your conclusion?

Other than that, you just make yourself look like a disgruntled church member, looking to kill those who offended you.

EB, you seem like you been around the church for some time.?.

Nonetheless, you act as if I'm speaking greek here, and this kind of thing doesn't happen.

Read some of my responses on this thread.

Take sometime to think about how much has been discussed on this forum without proof.

There is perhaps 100x more topics discussed without proof then that with proof.

Does this mean that those who opened subjects without proof, are lairs? Or does it mean that your a bit misguided in your conclusion?

Disgruntled, maybe. Looking to kill those who offended me, no. My time is worth more than that.

[GodIsGreat]

No response? Hmmmm...guess the answer to this is in the omission.

Accusations are monumental UNTIL the push for proof, then it's just a matter of put up or clam up. :throwrock

Slow down cowgirl. Did not Thanksgiving just pass? Furthermore, I don't wake up everyday with coming to this forum as a part of my MO.

[GodIsGreat]

GodIsGreat, this is exactly what I was talking about. The advent of internet brought a tsunami of communication unprecedented in our time. It enables all types of individuals to gain access to a watching and listening world. This comes with responsibility. Therefore when someone calls another on the carpet the accuser should be responsible to provide evidence for their accusations. If they can't, or if they won't, then they should be shooed away, as one would dismiss a disrespectful child. This doesn't mean that you are a bad person, just someone who wasn't prepared to put their money was their mouth was. I hope you understand.

:)

EB, have you made an accusation on this forum or off, and failed to provide proof?

BTW, I wouldn't shoo off a disrespectful child. IF the relationship is right between a parent and child, and a child is being disrespectful. A wise parent will dig deeper, knowing that there is a deeper issue, and the disrespect is merely a sign of it.

Shooing a child away is disrespecting the child. Two wrongs don't make a right.

FYI, even if you or anyone else thought that I'm a bad person, it wouldn't matter 1 cent to me. I know who I am, what I have produced, and what I will produce in the future.

Lastly, the homosexual "accusation" can be validated by yous truly - you.

Do a little homework, if you're inching to know.

[Jito463]

He was a homosexual then.

This is not uncommon in Apostolic churches.

I don't know what "Apostolic" churches you're hanging around, but yes, yes it is uncommon. Nigh on rare, bordering on the nonexistent, in fact.

If you're telling us the truth, be careful not to fall into hyperbole while attempting to convince us, because it will destroy any chance you have of doing so.

[Jito463]

Lastly, the homosexual "accusation" can be validated by yous truly - you.

Do a little homework, if you're inching to know.

That's now how it works. If I make the claim that you like to dress up like a clown and scare people, then say that anyone can confirm it for themselves, do you really expect anyone to take my word seriously? If you make a claim, you're expected to back it up on your own, not expect the rest of us to go rushing out and do the legwork for you.

[bishoph]

I don't know what "Apostolic" churches you're hanging around, but yes, yes it is uncommon. Nigh on rare, bordering on the nonexistent, in fact.

If you're telling us the truth, be careful not to fall into hyperbole while attempting to convince us, because it will destroy any chance you have of doing so.


My Good Friend.....you obviously live in a VERY small, sheltered portion of Pentecost. I have travelled extensively across multiple sects (organizations & independents) and I can tell you that unfortunately this IS a problem in the Apostolic Pentecostal world. In some circles it is felt with swiftly and the damage is minimal, in others, if the talent is good enough the sin is often overlooked as if the good being done (good music/program etc) is worth brushing the wrong under the carpet.

Just to clarify, this is NOT limited to Apostolic Pentecostals, the effeminate have been a blight in the worship ministry of nearly every religious group.

[Evang.Benincasa]

EB, have you made an accusation on this forum or off, and failed to provide proof?

If I did, and it was flat out false, I was quickly corrected. I don't go around posting Brother So and So allows Homosexual Pedophiles to teach Sunday School. Or Bishop Foofoofnick allows Lesbians to lead the choir. Without PROVING with evidence that these accusations are facts. You aren't doing that, but now send everyone off to find the evidence themselves? Are you for real? Or should I say how old are you? GodIsGreat? What does it look like? Why on earth does anyone other than YOU have to validate YOUR accusation? GIG, let's just put it on the record that you have no evidence for your statement.


BTW, I wouldn't shoo off a disrespectful child.

Why am I not surprised? :lol



IF the relationship is right between a parent and child, and a child is being disrespectful.

Seriously? You are posting under an alias, there is no relationship. You are a phantom, a nameless, faceless, voice. The responsibility is all on your shoulders, you opened your mouth, you are stringing up the preacher, but you don't want to prove YOUR comment. A right relationship between parent and child? Bro, go back and reread my post. I wasn't attempting to give parental advice. Not by a long shot.


A wise parent will dig deeper, knowing that there is a deeper issue, and the disrespect is merely a sign of it.

You are rolling down a road and leaving everyone behind. My man, dig this, you are posting under an alias, you make an accusation, the accusation is not good. Why? Because while there may be homosexuals found on the platform in Church history, this might not be the case with your story. Who are you? "Hey, Pastor Buffoonish has homosexuals in his leadership, Pastor Crackenbush has Pedophiles in his Nursery school and HE ALLOWS IT!" No one knows you, you are hidden, and in the safety of a computer screen you pour gas, and then light the match. You then log off, sign out, and walk away from your computer to have sweet fellowship with the Lord. :lol

So, are you kidding me? You don't see anything wrong with that?



Shooing a child away is disrespecting the child. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Really? Try this one on for size. Whoever spares the rod hates his child, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Stupidity is tied up in the mind of a child, but the rod of correction drives it far from him. The first wrong is you making a baseless accusation, the second wrong is for us to remain quite.


FYI, even if you or anyone else thought that I'm a bad person, it wouldn't matter 1 cent to me.

Excuse me? You don't get it? You are invisible, you are nameless, you are posting in anonymity. You can post all sorts of crazy things and then sit back to relax.



I know who I am,

That's why it is all on you sonny Jim, because you are the only one who knows who you are.


what I have produced, and what I will produce in the future.

Big deal. :lol


Lastly, the homosexual "accusation" can be validated by yous truly - you.

No, sorry, but the burden of proof is on you. As for me and my house, we will chalk it up to a disgruntled nameless individual using slander under the cloak anonymity.



Do a little homework, if you're inching to know.

Itching to know? Listen, I seriously believe that you don't know what I'm trying to tell you. There is no need for anyone to have to prove if your accusation is true. Why? Because all you have to do is provide the evidence. You want us to make phone calls, and knock doors, ask questions, do the research to only end up with egg on our face? How old are you? Obviously you just don't understand the power you possess. To throw something out there without a bit of evidence. An accusation which could cause issues which you will never lift a finger to remedy.

https://m.popkey.co/086937/GeYzD.gif

[Barb]

The Rock Church runs about 700-1000 on a good Sunday night. I believe that higher number is all the other works combined.

What I find funny is some of the saints of TRC, feel that The Rock Church is in direct competition with Pastor Holmes Church.

The truth is that The Rock Church is known for their leadership, while Pastor Holmes church is known for prayer.

The spirit of prayer bleeds through Pastor Holmes when he preaches.

Wilson and Young seem to think that they will win their city by having a church full of people with degrees. Both of them have said this over the pulpit. I was shocked!

I always thought that cities were won through a apostolic church where God IS in the driver seat (not by words but really in the driver seat), not by impressing a sin sick city with how "smart" their saints are by showing off a bunch of degrees.

No. "An ax to grind" is pretty heavy, so no.

What I stated is very true. When you have a preacher who feel free to utterly bash and make fun of other apostolic schools in comparison to AST to someone (me) within minutes of just meeting me.

When you began to hear things come over the pulpit as "the way to go" or as okay, when they were once preached (and still is being preached against) ... homosexuals being tolorated as music directors, and their sin being justified in exchange for their talent ...

I can go on and on. It gets very old. However, we (saints) have been trained to sit down and shut up.

An ax to grind?

No. Pretty sick of the carnality, ungodly personalities, bold hypocrisy, high mindedness etc.. Yes.

Barb, will you please tell me how to provide "proof" of church history a decade plus old?

TRC doesn't hand out membership cards. Do you have any bright ideas on how I can provide you proof that I attend TRC?

Lastly. I won't provide the name of the music director who ran the church music at TRC for a few years. According to a reliable source, their were more before him.

Simply go back into TRC's history. Find out who the music director was ... check on him now.

He was a homosexual then.

This is not uncommon in Apostolic churches.



Sir, I was not asking for proof of your church membership. I was asking for proof to the post cited here.

In case you are wondering why I am laying your feet to the fire, let me share MY history with you...

Bro. Wilson was my pastor here in Michigan. Even as a young man, NJW was a man of strong character and integrity. I loved and respected his leadership, and do so today.

Do I think he walks on water? No! There are a few incidentals where he and I disagree, but I NEVER, not for one second, then or now doubted his deep sincerity and love for the lost.

Re degrees...Bishop Wilson has always encouraged education, but NEVER at the expense of truth and evangelism. If that is what you have gleaned from your time in his presence, you have missed much.

As for the unnamed musical director...no need to do so. I know his name. HOWEVER, if you think that was known AND tolerated, you are GREATLY mistaken!!! NJW would NEVER knowingly allow that to happen...NEVER!!

No disrespect here, but I don't give a rolling donut how long you were or have been a member of the TRC...coming here with your definite ax to grind with Bishop Wilson and Bro. Young is mighty low.

All of this leads me to ask: Why? What brings you here to accuse men of God of such things?

Did they not shake your hand one Sunday evening? Did Bishop or Bro. Young stop you in your tracks over a misdeed? Did they not move swift enough in the case of the aforementioned situation from back in the day? Did they deliver a Word from the Lord, and you took it personally as an attack?

What is up?

Here's the deal... this "cowgirl" has a suggestion...give them a call. Be as open and upfront with the elders, in the same manner you have here. Give them a list of your grips. Tell them they are arrogant snobs, because that is what you really think, right? Tell them you think they tolerated homosexuality for the sake of music...oh I would LOVE to hear their answer to that!!

Please, do it up right. Let these two fine men of God confront their accuser, and get back with us...when you can.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Good job :thumbsup

[n david]

My Good Friend.....you obviously live in a VERY small, sheltered portion of Pentecost. I have travelled extensively across multiple sects (organizations & independents) and I can tell you that unfortunately this IS a problem in the Apostolic Pentecostal world. In some circles it is felt with swiftly and the damage is minimal, in others, if the talent is good enough the sin is often overlooked as if the good being done (good music/program etc) is worth brushing the wrong under the carpet.

Just to clarify, this is NOT limited to Apostolic Pentecostals, the effeminate have been a blight in the worship ministry of nearly every religious group.
Unfortunately, this is true. I have spent a little more than a couple decades in music ministry and used to travel a lot as a younger man. Indie, UPC, Non-Denom, PAW, Black, White, Hispanic -- it's an issue in a lot of various types of churches. And I'm afraid, what with the current social climate of gender fluidity, it may only grow worse.

[Jito463]

My Good Friend.....you obviously live in a VERY small, sheltered portion of Pentecost. I have travelled extensively across multiple sects (organizations & independents) and I can tell you that unfortunately this IS a problem in the Apostolic Pentecostal world. In some circles it is felt with swiftly and the damage is minimal, in others, if the talent is good enough the sin is often overlooked as if the good being done (good music/program etc) is worth brushing the wrong under the carpet.

Just to clarify, this is NOT limited to Apostolic Pentecostals, the effeminate have been a blight in the worship ministry of nearly every religious group.

I've sat under 7 different pastors, in three different churches, across two different states. I know several other pastors across multiple other states (and not just UPC). But yes, I obviously live a sheltered existence, and couldn't possibly know anything. :ohplease

[KeptByTheWord]

My Good Friend.....you obviously live in a VERY small, sheltered portion of Pentecost. I have travelled extensively across multiple sects (organizations & independents) and I can tell you that unfortunately this IS a problem in the Apostolic Pentecostal world. In some circles it is felt with swiftly and the damage is minimal, in others, if the talent is good enough the sin is often overlooked as if the good being done (good music/program etc) is worth brushing the wrong under the carpet.

Just to clarify, this is NOT limited to Apostolic Pentecostals, the effeminate have been a blight in the worship ministry of nearly every religious group.

This brings up an interesting point that I have often wondered myself. Why is it that the effeminate spirit shows up so often in music leaders?

[votivesoul]

You know, experiencing same sex attraction or even having such lusts in the flesh and temptations toward the same isn't a sin, so long as not acted upon, and taken to the Lord in prayer and confession, with a desire to crucify the flesh with the lusts and affections thereof.

There isn't any reason to deny someone an opportunity to serve the Lord, as long as their flesh is in check and no trangressions are occurring.

I mean, how many sexy librarian female worship leaders have been up front for all the men to stumble in their hearts over?

Does the pastor never experience hetero-sexual attractions to other females he's not married to? Can he keep them under the power of the cross and not allow his flesh an occasion?

If so, he's okay to minister, right? So, wouldn't it be true of a person experiencing homo-sexual attraction? They ought to be allowed to minister their gifts in the church.

It's not about giving a pass to sinfulness, but the giving of grace to one and all, lest we forget from whence we came, and create a double standard by which some are judged unworthy for their past, their temptations, their flesh, while others are found accepted, despite their past, their temptations, their flesh.

[votivesoul]

You know, experiencing same sex attraction or even having such lusts in the flesh and temptations toward the same isn't a sin, so long as not acted upon, and taken to the Lord in prayer and confession, with a desire to crucify the flesh with the lusts and affections thereof.

There isn't any reason to deny someone an opportunity to serve the Lord, as long as their flesh is in check and no trangressions are occurring.

I mean, how many sexy librarian female worship leaders have been up front for all the men to stumble in their hearts over?

Does the pastor never experience hetero-sexual attractions to other females he's not married to? Can he keep them under the power of the cross and not allow his flesh an occasion?

If so, he's okay to minister, right? So, wouldn't it be true of a person experiencing homo-sexual attraction? They ought to be allowed to minister their gifts in the church.

It's not about giving a pass to sinfulness, but the giving of grace to one and all, lest we forget from whence we came, and create a double standard by which some are judged unworthy for their past, their temptations, their flesh, while others are found accepted, despite their past, their temptations, their flesh.

So, unless it can be proven that a person in the church has actually engaged in a homosexual act or is clearly maintaining a homosexual relationship even if no physical acts have transpired, then there isn't any righteous accusation that can be made.

We ought not toss the word "effeminate" out there too much, either. Who is masculine enough to not warrant it? What's the rubric for deciding someone's manliness?

1 Corinthians 6:9's use of the word in the KJV isn't a substantial argument either, because the meaning behind the word is much more than simply having a soft appearance, or a high voice, or a purdy mouth, or whatever. It's about being a catamite, or young boy sex slave in a temple who was dolled up to look feminine so as to attract the sodomites who frequented the temples.

[Steve Epley]

You know, experiencing same sex attraction or even having such lusts in the flesh and temptations toward the same isn't a sin, so long as not acted upon, and taken to the Lord in prayer and confession, with a desire to crucify the flesh with the lusts and affections thereof.

There isn't any reason to deny someone an opportunity to serve the Lord, as long as their flesh is in check and no trangressions are occurring.

I mean, how many sexy librarian female worship leaders have been up front for all the men to stumble in their hearts over?

Does the pastor never experience hetero-sexual attractions to other females he's not married to? Can he keep them under the power of the cross and not allow his flesh an occasion?

If so, he's okay to minister, right? So, wouldn't it be true of a person experiencing homo-sexual attraction? They ought to be allowed to minister their gifts in the church.

It's not about giving a pass to sinfulness, but the giving of grace to one and all, lest we forget from whence we came, and create a double standard by which some are judged unworthy for their past, their temptations, their flesh, while others are found accepted, despite their past, their temptations, their flesh.

:smack good grief. Seems like lots of homos over here?

[votivesoul]

:smack good grief. Seems like lots of homos over here?

What an unfortunate, unfounded response not worthy of additional comment.

[consapente89]

You know, experiencing same sex attraction or even having such lusts in the flesh and temptations toward the same isn't a sin, so long as not acted upon, and taken to the Lord in prayer and confession, with a desire to crucify the flesh with the lusts and affections thereof.

There isn't any reason to deny someone an opportunity to serve the Lord, as long as their flesh is in check and no trangressions are occurring.

I mean, how many sexy librarian female worship leaders have been up front for all the men to stumble in their hearts over?

Does the pastor never experience hetero-sexual attractions to other females he's not married to? Can he keep them under the power of the cross and not allow his flesh an occasion?

If so, he's okay to minister, right? So, wouldn't it be true of a person experiencing homo-sexual attraction? They ought to be allowed to minister their gifts in the church.

It's not about giving a pass to sinfulness, but the giving of grace to one and all, lest we forget from whence we came, and create a double standard by which some are judged unworthy for their past, their temptations, their flesh, while others are found accepted, despite their past, their temptations, their flesh.

Attraction to the opposite sex is natural while lust is sinful. Attraction to the same sex whether acted on or not is perversion. God created attraction to the opposite sex for marriage and reproduction. It may come to a surprise to many of the "Christian world" that God did NOT create men to be attracted to men or women to women....it is a perverted unnatural attraction. There is definitely an epidemic of effiminacy sweeping through Pentecost and few truly raising their voice against it. It's the above mindset that has lead to the tolerance of so many queers in leadership positions.

[Amanah]

So, unless it can be proven that a person in the church has actually engaged in a homosexual act or is clearly maintaining a homosexual relationship even if no physical acts have transpired, then there isn't any righteous accusation that can be made.

We ought not toss the word "effeminate" out there too much, either. Who is masculine enough to not warrant it? What's the rubric for deciding someone's manliness?

1 Corinthians 6:9's use of the word in the KJV isn't a substantial argument either, because the meaning behind the word is much more than simply having a soft appearance, or a high voice, or a purdy mouth, or whatever. It's about being a catamite, or young boy sex slave in a temple who was dolled up to look feminine so as to attract the sodomites who frequented the temples.

amen to this.

[Amanah]

:smack good grief. Seems like lots of homos over here?

Jesus died for all of us.

[Godsdrummer]

amen to this.

Jesus died for all of us.

I guess some people don't think God died for the hermaphrodite. (born with both sex organs.) If hermaphrodites can be born then cannot people be born with leanings to the same sex. If so who are we to judge them?

[aegsm76]

I guess some people don't think God died for the hermaphrodite. (born with both sex organs.) If hermaphrodites can be born then cannot people be born with leanings to the same sex. If so who are we to judge them?

We do not judge them.
The Word judges us all.

There is currently no scientific knowledge to prove that same-sex attraction is genetic.
Although it is being frantically looked for...

[Godsdrummer]

We do not judge them.
The Word judges us all.

There is currently no scientific knowledge to prove that same-sex attraction is genetic.
Although it is being frantically looked for...

No the word does not judge them mans interpretation of the word is what judges them.

And you can hide your head in the sand all you want about no scientific knowledge, but the very fact that genes can cause a person to be born with both sex organs refutes your statement IMO that there is no proof genetics cannot cause a person to have the sex organ of one sex yet have leanings towards the same sex.

[KeptByTheWord]

No the word does not judge them mans interpretation of the word is what judges them. And what of Sodom and Gomorrah? You cannot bury your head in the sand and ignore how God dealt with the sin that had taken over these two cities.

And you can hide your head in the sand all you want about no scientific knowledge, but the very fact that genes can cause a person to be born with both sex organs refutes your statement IMO that there is no proof genetics cannot cause a person to have the sex organ of one sex yet have leanings towards the same sex.

There have always been freaks of nature, however even with all that, there is still no definitive conclusion that one is born with a desire for the same sex. I personally believe it is a spirit of perversion that one gives into at some point in their life.

But one thing we do know is this. The way God dealt with a city full of homose*uals lets us know quite plainly, just how He feels about that sin.

(I use * in certain words so as to not draw in computer bots looking for those words)

[n david]

You know, experiencing same sex attraction or even having such lusts in the flesh and temptations toward the same isn't a sin, so long as not acted upon, and taken to the Lord in prayer and confession, with a desire to crucify the flesh with the lusts and affections thereof.

There isn't any reason to deny someone an opportunity to serve the Lord, as long as their flesh is in check and no trangressions are occurring.

I mean, how many sexy librarian female worship leaders have been up front for all the men to stumble in their hearts over?

Does the pastor never experience hetero-sexual attractions to other females he's not married to? Can he keep them under the power of the cross and not allow his flesh an occasion?

If so, he's okay to minister, right? So, wouldn't it be true of a person experiencing homo-sexual attraction? They ought to be allowed to minister their gifts in the church.

It's not about giving a pass to sinfulness, but the giving of grace to one and all, lest we forget from whence we came, and create a double standard by which some are judged unworthy for their past, their temptations, their flesh, while others are found accepted, despite their past, their temptations, their flesh.
Sorry, I disagree with this. consapente89 nailed it. Attraction to the opposite sex is natural, though lust is sinful; however, any attraction to the same sex is unnatural and perversion. You cannot scripturally relate attraction between opposite sexes to attraction between the same sex. It does not matter whether or not it is acted upon. It's unnatural and perversion.

[aegsm76]

No the word does not judge them mans interpretation of the word is what judges them.

And you can hide your head in the sand all you want about no scientific knowledge, but the very fact that genes can cause a person to be born with both sex organs refutes your statement IMO that there is no proof genetics cannot cause a person to have the sex organ of one sex yet have leanings towards the same sex.

Let's examine your statement here.
I say that there is no scientific proof for a genetic cause of same-sex attraction.
You state that I am hiding my head in the sand, but provide no links to back up your assertion.
Now, at some point in the future, there could be a link established, but there is not yet.

[votivesoul]

Attraction to the opposite sex is natural while lust is sinful. Attraction to the same sex whether acted on or not is perversion. God created attraction to the opposite sex for marriage and reproduction. It may come to a surprise to many of the "Christian world" that God did NOT create men to be attracted to men or women to women....it is a perverted unnatural attraction. There is definitely an epidemic of effiminacy sweeping through Pentecost and few truly raising their voice against it. It's the above mindset that has lead to the tolerance of so many queers in leadership positions.

Nowhere did I write that the first was natural and the other was not.

I wrote that experiencing the first is no more a sin than experiencing the second.

The actions are the sins, coupled with the lusts in the heart. A heterosexual man may be sinning a lot more than a person who has experienced same sex attractions, if his lusts and his heart are not subdued by the cross versus the person who experiences same sex attractions but keeps his lusts and his heart pure before the Lord through the cross.

Lusting after another man's wife, for example is as much perversion and ungodliness as any other kind of sexual immorality. It is just as much contrary to the Laws of God.

And if you want to know why there has been such an epidemic, maybe it's because those in the church who experience same sex attractions were given Law and not Grace, and finding no help from the ministry for their problems, found only condemnation, and so, have not been able to work through their issues properly, so as to have victory.

After all, since the fault is not God's, and since the onus for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry falls upon the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, is hard to expect the saints, many of them new converts coming out of homosexuality, to have any clear idea of how to finally overcome once and for all the lusts of their old man.

Simply receiving the Holy Spirit is no automatic guarantee of anything, when more is not added (2 Peter 1:5-7).

[votivesoul]

Sorry, I disagree with this. consapente89 nailed it. Attraction to the opposite sex is natural, though lust is sinful; however, any attraction to the same sex is unnatural and perversion. You cannot scripturally relate attraction between opposite sexes to attraction between the same sex. It does not matter whether or not it is acted upon. It's unnatural and perversion.

Amnon and Tamar. Only half siblings, no worse than Abraham and Sarah.

The Septuagint uses the word agapao for his "love" toward her.

Καὶ ἐγενήθη μετὰ ταῦτα καὶ τῷ Αβεσσαλωμ υἱῷ Δαυιδ ἀδελφὴ καλὴ τῷ εἴδει σφόδρα, καὶ ὄνομα αὐτῇ Θημαρ, καὶ ἠγάπησεν αὐτὴν Αμνων υἱὸς Δαυιδ.

Tamar was even willing to stay with Amnon and be his wife, though he had raped her.

Is this story not full of perversion and unnatural lust and sin between the opposite sexes?

[votivesoul]

Amnon and Tamar. Only half siblings, no worse than Abraham and Sarah.

The Septuagint uses the word agapao for his "love" toward her.

Καὶ ἐγενήθη μετὰ ταῦτα καὶ τῷ Αβεσσαλωμ υἱῷ Δαυιδ ἀδελφὴ καλὴ τῷ εἴδει σφόδρα, καὶ ὄνομα αὐτῇ Θημαρ, καὶ ἠγάπησεν αὐτὴν Αμνων υἱὸς Δαυιδ.

Tamar was even willing to stay with Amnon and be his wife, though he had raped her.

Is this story not full of perversion and unnatural lust and sin between the opposite sexes?

Is not Absalom uncovering his father's nakedness by fornicating with David's concubine in public display not perverse and unnatural, according to the Law, even though opposite sexes were involved?

[votivesoul]

Is not Absalom uncovering his father's nakedness by fornicating with David's concubine in public display not perverse and unnatural, according to the Law, even though opposite sexes were involved?

Or in 1 Corinthians 5, that a young man was fornicating and committing adultery with his father's wife? This is not perverse and unnatural, though opposite sexes were involved?

[votivesoul]

Or in 1 Corinthians 5, that a young man was fornicating and committing adultery with his father's wife? This is not perverse and unnatural, though opposite sexes were involved?

Or the fact that is quite possible that Abijam fornicated with his own mother and conceived Asa (See 1 Kings 15:1-2 and 9-10). If so, is this not perverse and unnatural, even though opposite sexes were involved?

[votivesoul]

All of these examples, and more, are just as perverse and unnatural same sex attractions.

[Jito463]

All of these examples, and more, are just as perverse and unnatural same sex attractions.

Uh, nobody that I saw was arguing there weren't perversions between heterosexuals, it doesn't negate that the Bible explicitly calls out homosexuality as unnatural, and an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.

[Cracker Barrel]

:smack good grief. Seems like lots of homos over here?

Oh My
This made me laugh till it hurt!!!!
:highfive:heeheehee:spit:happydance:thumbsup

[n david]

All of these examples, and more, are just as perverse and unnatural same sex attractions.
Perverted, yes. Unnatural, no, since male and females are naturally attracted to one another.

Again, you cannot scripturally equate natural heterosexual attraction with that of unnatural homosexual attraction. Regardless if there is lust or action or just simple attraction. It is unnatural and sinful.

[mfblume]

This brings up an interesting point that I have often wondered myself. Why is it that the effeminate spirit shows up so often in music leaders?

Brief explanation... Music is very emotional. Soulish. And men who have a homosexual tendency are given to more emotion than usual. There's more to it. But I think this is the nutshell version of the matter.

[votivesoul]

Perverted, yes. Unnatural, no, since male and females are naturally attracted to one another.

Again, you cannot scripturally equate natural heterosexual attraction with that of unnatural homosexual attraction. Regardless if there is lust or action or just simple attraction. It is unnatural and sinful.

Natural that a man should want to rape his sister? Natural that a son would bed his father's concubines on the rooftop of the royal palace for every eye in Jerusalem to see after usurping the throne? Natural that a young man would fornicate with his stepmom? Natural that a man would commit incest and impregnate his own mother?

Just because it is natural and normative for men to be attracted to women, and vice versa, does not mean that all forms of attraction between the sexes are natural.

Paul wrote in Romans 1 that women gave up the natural use of their bodies, a sure reference to sodomy committed against them by men. It is not natural or normal for a man to want to sodomize a woman, even though it is natural for a man and woman to be attracted to each other sexually.

The fact is, the reason these lusts and sins exist is due to the law of sin within each one of us. To sit here and say that one person's lusts and sins are more natural than others is a cop out, in my opinion, and causes unjust judgment against those we think are more "unnatural" in their lusts and sins than others.

See, the ideal situation, the utopia of righteousness in this life, is that no heterosexual man would be lustfully attracted to any woman in order to sin with her.

And in the resurrection, when corruption puts on incorruption, that ideal will be permanently realized. So, I submit to one and all that there is no difference between any kind of sexual lust and sin. All are damning. All destroy the soul. All eat away at and mar the image of God created in us. All will be judged by the Most High.

There won't be a different line into hell for unrepentant, but no less, "lesser" heterosexual sinners. That's just not the case anywhere in Holy Scripture. Anyone involved in any kind of sexual lust and sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

[votivesoul]

And what of Sodom and Gomorrah? You cannot bury your head in the sand and ignore how God dealt with the sin that had taken over these two cities.



There have always been freaks of nature, however even with all that, there is still no definitive conclusion that one is born with a desire for the same sex. I personally believe it is a spirit of perversion that one gives into at some point in their life.

But one thing we do know is this. The way God dealt with a city full of homose*uals lets us know quite plainly, just how He feels about that sin.

(I use * in certain words so as to not draw in computer bots looking for those words)

See the emboldened part of the above quotation. Sis, I am surprised and disheartened to see you call another human being a "freak of nature", just because they were born with a different form or abnormality due to whatever flaw existed in their parent's DNA.

They were created by the LORD God, and are just as fearfully and wonderfully made as any other human. God is the cause of how they were shaped in their mother's womb. Is God in the habit of making freaks, in the derogatory, pejorative sense of the word?

In my opinion, I think not.

[Evang.Benincasa]

See the emboldened part of the above quotation. Sis, I am surprised and disheartened to see you call another human being a "freak of nature", just because they were born with a different form or abnormality due to whatever flaw existed in their parent's DNA.

They were created by the LORD God, and are just as fearfully and wonderfully made as any other human. God is the cause of how they were shaped in their mother's womb. Is God in the habit of making freaks, in the derogatory, pejorative sense of the word?

In my opinion, I think not.

Excuse me, but are you saying that Homosexuals are born Homosexuals?

[allstate1]

Excuse me, but are you saying that Homosexuals are born Homosexuals?

NO EB, he is talking about hermaphroditism, follow the thread.

[Godsdrummer]

And what of Sodom and Gomorrah? You cannot bury your head in the sand and ignore how God dealt with the sin that had taken over these two cities.

Please show me in scripture just exactly what was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. Without using the word Sodom.

There have always been freaks of nature, however even with all that, there is still no definitive conclusion that one is born with a desire for the same sex. I personally believe it is a spirit of perversion that one gives into at some point in their life.

Note the phrase, "I believe it is the spirit of perversion" just because you believe does not make it true.


But one thing we do know is this. The way God dealt with a city full of homose*uals lets us know quite plainly, just how He feels about that sin.

(I use * in certain words so as to not draw in computer bots looking for those words)

Again I ask from what scripture do you determine the city was full of homos?

[Godsdrummer]

See the emboldened part of the above quotation. Sis, I am surprised and disheartened to see you call another human being a "freak of nature", just because they were born with a different form or abnormality due to whatever flaw existed in their parent's DNA.

They were created by the LORD God, and are just as fearfully and wonderfully made as any other human. God is the cause of how they were shaped in their mother's womb. Is God in the habit of making freaks, in the derogatory, pejorative sense of the word?

In my opinion, I think not.

I concur too many can only think from the point of view that they have been given by others. "if the pastor says the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality, then it must have been". Regardless as to the fact that the meaning of the word Sodom in Hebrew has nothing to do with sex.

[n david]

Natural that a man should want to rape his sister? Natural that a son would bed his father's concubines on the rooftop of the royal palace for every eye in Jerusalem to see after usurping the throne? Natural that a young man would fornicate with his stepmom? Natural that a man would commit incest and impregnate his own mother?

Just because it is natural and normative for men to be attracted to women, and vice versa, does not mean that all forms of attraction between the sexes are natural.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. The examples you gave were perverted. It's perversion which caused Amnon to rape Tamar. It was perversion which caused Lot's daughters to have sex with him. It was perversion which caused incest in the Bible. I would agree perversion is not natural.

I should have separated the issue, instead of combining in the same sentence.

It is natural for a man to be attracted to a woman.

It is not natural for a man to be attracted to a man. Period. It doesn't matter if he holds the attraction inside and doesn't act on it. It is unnatural according to the Bible and it is sin.

You cannot equate the natural attraction between a man and woman to that of the same sex.

There won't be a different line into hell for unrepentant, but no less, "lesser" heterosexual sinners. That's just not the case anywhere in Holy Scripture. Anyone involved in any kind of sexual lust and sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Agreed. Lust is sin. Any man/woman who lusts after another man/woman is in sin. Our disagreement in that you believe it's okay for a man to be attracted to another man. It is not. The bible is clearly against it. It's sin, regardless of whether the homosexual acts on his attraction or not.

[KeptByTheWord]

See the emboldened part of the above quotation. Sis, I am surprised and disheartened to see you call another human being a "freak of nature", just because they were born with a different form or abnormality due to whatever flaw existed in their parent's DNA.

They were created by the LORD God, and are just as fearfully and wonderfully made as any other human. God is the cause of how they were shaped in their mother's womb. Is God in the habit of making freaks, in the derogatory, pejorative sense of the word?

In my opinion, I think not.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/freak-of-nature

freak of nature
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a person or animal that is born or grows with abnormal physical features.
2.
an unusual, unexpected natural phenomenon.
Origin of freak of nature Expand
1840-1850

I didn't make that term up Votive.

The term "freak of nature" is simply a way of describing someone born with abnormal physical features, whatever they may be, and not necessarily se*ual.

And I agree with you that we are all created by the Lord.

[KeptByTheWord]

Brief explanation... Music is very emotional. Soulish. And men who have a homosexual tendency are given to more emotion than usual. There's more to it. But I think this is the nutshell version of the matter.

I have often thought that myself, but have never really verbalized that thought, or heard it discussed.

[KeptByTheWord]

So, I submit to one and all that there is no difference between any kind of sexual lust and sin. All are damning. All destroy the soul. All eat away at and mar the image of God created in us. All will be judged by the Most High.

There won't be a different line into hell for unrepentant, but no less, "lesser" heterosexual sinners. That's just not the case anywhere in Holy Scripture. Anyone involved in any kind of sexual lust and sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

In God's eyes, all sin is sin. Period. Unrepentant sin of any kind will not be tolerated by the Lord.

However, there are consequences of sins that involve acting on se*ual lust of any kind. The consequence of one acting on se*ual lust involves consequences. God forgives, but consequences still follow the sin, as we see in the case of King David.

[KeptByTheWord]

Again I ask from what scripture do you determine the city was full of homos?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[Jito463]

I concur too many can only think from the point of view that they have been given by others. "if the pastor says the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality, then it must have been". Regardless as to the fact that the meaning of the word Sodom in Hebrew has nothing to do with sex.

How about, when Lot offered his daughters to the crowd, they still demanded the two men (angels). It's not just about the name Sodom. There is much evidence that the city was filled with homos.

[Esaias]

Again I ask from what scripture do you determine the city was full of homos?

You're kidding, right?

Man, this forum is Bizarro world.

Mixelplix!

[aegsm76]

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

[allstate1]

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Not defending homosexuals but you misquoted the scripture. It does not say ALL the men but it does say ALL the people.

[Scott Pitta]

Back to the subject at hand.

I was part of a mega church when I lived in Stockton. I much prefer a church with around 100 member in it. But that is just me :)

[mfblume]

You're kidding, right?

Man, this forum is Bizarro world.

Mixelplix!

Amen. The bible clearly shows it was sexual sin that cost Sodom and Gommorha it's existence.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[Cracker Barrel]

Ezekiel 16:4,50
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

I heard Eld. T. Meade preach one his greatest messages on this scripture,

"God has the final say"

[votivesoul]

Excuse me, but are you saying that Homosexuals are born Homosexuals?

No. But they are born with a law of sin in their members that, when revives, slays them. That law of sin can be directed toward homosexuality.

KBTW was referring to godsdrummer's post about hermaphrodites. She was calling hermaphrodites "freaks of nature". I do not believe it to be very consistent with Christ-likeness to call someone born with additional, opposite sex genitalia a "freak of nature", when God is the author of life and is the cause of many disabilities, as He said in Exodus to Moses, and etc. David wasn't and isn't the only human God "knit together" in a mother's womb.

[votivesoul]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The examples you gave were perverted. It's perversion which caused Amnon to rape Tamar. It was perversion which caused Lot's daughters to have sex with him. It was perversion which caused incest in the Bible. I would agree perversion is not natural.

I should have separated the issue, instead of combining in the same sentence.

It is natural for a man to be attracted to a woman.

I am in alignment with the above.

It is not natural for a man to be attracted to a man. Period. It doesn't matter if he holds the attraction inside and doesn't act on it. It is unnatural according to the Bible and it is sin.

It IS natural (in the sense of normal/typical) to a human whose law of sin in their members has not been crucified and who is not walking in the Spirit.

Any form of sinfulness is natural to the natural, unregenerate person.

And I do not think you can prove that the attraction is "sin". Experiencing an attraction doesn't equal transgression. Acting on the attraction and allowing it to entertain the mind until the thoughts and intents of the heart lead one into sin, is.

It is only until lust has conceived, that sin is born. Simply having lust enter the heart, in any way, doesn't mean a person has sinned. Only when one attempts to sate their lust, that they enter into sinfulness.

Agreed. Lust is sin. Any man/woman who lusts after another man/woman is in sin. Our disagreement in that you believe it's okay for a man to be attracted to another man. It is not.

I do not believe it is "okay", but rather normal, in many circumstances, due to the law of sin in our members. Many are the young children who were abused, exposed, or misled into a sexual identity crisis and grew up confused and tempted and, due to environmental circumstances, possibly allowed to explore that crisis and act in unseemly ways with the same sex. For such a young child later growing up under that condemnation, walking in that darkness, homosexuality is "only natural", as the saying goes.

Natural doesn't equal God ordained/created. It means something that is normal, or comes naturally in a given situation. And since the given situation is sinful humanity, it's quite a normal thing, even for people in the Church, to experience same sex attraction. Most never dare speak a word of it to anyone, for fear of humiliation and condemnation, and so, never get any help from the Body, and just go on living with it, trying and crying and praying and seeking God, but never quite overcoming, eventually giving up because from the church-world's pov, they are nothing but abominations.

The bible is clearly against it.

Quite right. Clearly against it. Where have I given any indication I believe otherwise?

It's sin, regardless of whether the homosexual acts on his attraction or not.

You can't prove that from the Holy Scriptures. Heterosexual attraction between a married man and a coworker isn't sin, but a temptation waiting to become sin, if the man isn't careful.

Attraction is merely being drawn to something. We can be attracted to a new church, a different ministry, a new job, a new car, or whatever. None of that is sin, even if it's not God's will for us to have any of the above. It only BECOMES a sin when we refuse God's will, disobey His instruction, shrug off His admonishment, and go after that which attracted us.

The drawing to isn't a transgression. But one needs must be careful, that they don't allow their own lusts to draw them away into sin.

Is this really so contrary to how most people understand things? This seems the only sensible way to approach these things, to me, at least.

[KeptByTheWord]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/freak-of-nature

freak of nature
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a person or animal that is born or grows with abnormal physical features.
2.
an unusual, unexpected natural phenomenon.
Origin of freak of nature Expand
1840-1850

I didn't make that term up Votive.

The term "freak of nature" is simply a way of describing someone born with abnormal physical features, whatever they may be, and not necessarily se*ual.

And I agree with you that we are all created by the Lord.

Bump. I think you must have missed this post Votive?

[votivesoul]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/freak-of-nature

freak of nature
Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a person or animal that is born or grows with abnormal physical features.
2.
an unusual, unexpected natural phenomenon.
Origin of freak of nature Expand
1840-1850

I didn't make that term up Votive.

The term "freak of nature" is simply a way of describing someone born with abnormal physical features, whatever they may be, and not necessarily se*ual.

And I agree with you that we are all created by the Lord.

I know you didn't create the term. But I advise you, if ever you're in a crowd, and someone is there who has been born with some kind of deformity or abnormality, or tells you he or she is a hermaphrodite, please don't tell them you think they are a "freak of nature".

You will lose your witness and never get another chance to evangelize that person. To call someone a freak in this way would serve no better than to call a black person "colored". It will hurt just as much, and do as much psychological damage.

[votivesoul]

Ezekiel 16:4,50
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

I heard Eld. T. Meade preach one his greatest messages on this scripture,

"God has the final say"

Brother, that verse in Ezekiel is not about the Sodom in Genesis, but is a derogatory term for Jerusalem.

So, "Jerusalem's" sin was "pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idlness...".

Go back to the beginning of the chapter. See how God refers to "thy sister Sodom"? It goes back to Jerusalem and Samaria. It's quite clear, if the whole chapter is taken as one whole unit, and not dissected for proof-texts.

[votivesoul]

Brethren, Jude 1:7 does not AT ALL say what you all think.

The Greek word for "strange" as in strange flesh is:

hetero

As in heterosexual. Hetero means "different". Homo means "same".

See: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/jude/1-7.htm

See: http://biblehub.com/greek/2087.htm

The sin that occurred there is that the people of Sodom lusted after "different" flesh, that is, they wanted to fornicate with ANGELS, who, though they were in the form of man, were not actually humans. It wasn't about a homosexual rape gang. It was about people who wanted to have some nirvana experience by bedding angels, who, it was often believed, gave humans secret knowledge and understanding, often through sexual liaisons.

See Genesis 6, as an example, re: the sons of God, something Jude mentions as one of the examples of ungodliness, before referring to Enoch, a tome in which fallen angels procreate with humans and give humans forbidden knowledge in the process.

Yes, there was fornication in Sodom and Gomorrah, but no actual proof of homosexuality. Not a single verse of it happening. No verse indicating it didn't, either. So the Bible is silent here, and so should we be, except for their lusting after angelic flesh.

[votivesoul]

Bump. I think you must have missed this post Votive?

Just needed to catch up.

[votivesoul]

I concur too many can only think from the point of view that they have been given by others. "if the pastor says the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was homosexuality, then it must have been". Regardless as to the fact that the meaning of the word Sodom in Hebrew has nothing to do with sex.

Amen. "Scorched and Ruined" for "Sodom and Gomorrah". These were assigned, etiological names given to these places after God's destroyed them. Prior to, they likely had different names.

[KeptByTheWord]

And what of Sodom and Gomorrah? You cannot bury your head in the sand and ignore how God dealt with the sin that had taken over these two cities.

There have always been freaks of nature, however even with all that, there is still no definitive conclusion that one is born with a desire for the same sex. I personally believe it is a spirit of perversion that one gives into at some point in their life.

But one thing we do know is this. The way God dealt with a city full of homose*uals lets us know quite plainly, just how He feels about that sin.

(I use * in certain words so as to not draw in computer bots looking for those words)

Votive, you have taken this term and gone way overboard with the reaction to it. It is simply a means of describing someone who is born with atypical characteristics. Whatever you do, don't read any medical documentation recording such things, it would surely shock you, if this term is offensive to you, and I certainly did not mean it to be so.

No. But they are born with a law of sin in their members that, when revives, slays them. That law of sin can be directed toward homosexuality.

KBTW was referring to godsdrummer's post about hermaphrodites. She was calling hermaphrodites "freaks of nature". I do not believe it to be very consistent with Christ-likeness to call someone born with additional, opposite sex genitalia a "freak of nature", when God is the author of life and is the cause of many disabilities, as He said in Exodus to Moses, and etc. David wasn't and isn't the only human God "knit together" in a mother's womb.

I know you didn't create the term. But I advise you, if ever you're in a crowd, and someone is there who has been born with some kind of deformity or abnormality, or tells you he or she is a hermaphrodite, please don't tell them you think they are a "freak of nature".

You will lose your witness and never get another chance to evangelize that person. To call someone a freak in this way would serve no better than to call a black person "colored". It will hurt just as much, and do as much psychological damage.

What are you suggesting? That I would just walk up and call someone a freak of nature? I don't understand the overreaction I am getting from you at all. I surely would never do such a thing! smh

[Cracker Barrel]

Brother, that verse in Ezekiel is not about the Sodom in Genesis, but is a derogatory term for Jerusalem.

So, "Jerusalem's" sin was "pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idlness...".

Go back to the beginning of the chapter. See how God refers to "thy sister Sodom"? It goes back to Jerusalem and Samaria. It's quite clear, if the whole chapter is taken as one whole unit, and not dissected for proof-texts.

You my canadian Sodomite defender, are an einstein!:thumbsup

God through the prophet, was drawing a direct parallel between the actions and sins of his people and the Sodom of Genesis.

It can also be said of this generation.

Lolo.

[votivesoul]

Votive, you have taken this term and gone way overboard with the reaction to it. It is simply a means of describing someone who is born with atypical characteristics. Whatever you do, don't read any medical documentation recording such things, it would surely shock you, if this term is offensive to you, and I certainly did not mean it to be so.





What are you suggesting? That I would just walk up and call someone a freak of nature? I don't understand the overreaction I am getting from you at all. I surely would never do such a thing! smh

What I am saying, Sis, is that "freak of nature" finds itself a very hurtful, negative term as a descriptor for someone born with a deformity. Using it here to describe hermaphrodites and others doesn't get a pass just because you wouldn't use the term in public toward someone with a deformity.

I realize it may not seem such a striking issue for you. I am trying to raise your awareness of how such a term can come across.

What if one of our members here at AFF has an undisclosed deformity, or has a sibling hermaphrodite? Don't you suppose reading you use the phrase "freak of nature" to describe someone with these genetic conditions would hurt their feelings?

That's all I intend here. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

[votivesoul]

You my canadian Sodomite defender, are an einstein!:thumbsup

God through the prophet, was drawing a direct parallel between the actions and sins of his people and the Sodom of Genesis.

It can also be said of this generation.

Lolo.

And since this is so, there is no mention at all of homosexuality in either the Genesis account of Sodom or of this account of Jerusalem.

And if you don't mind, you could be less flippant.

(PS. I am not Canadian.)

[KeptByTheWord]

Brethren, Jude 1:7 does not AT ALL say what you all think.

The Greek word for "strange" as in strange flesh is:

hetero

As in heterosexual. Hetero means "different". Homo means "same".

See: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/jude/1-7.htm

See: http://biblehub.com/greek/2087.htm

The sin that occurred there is that the people of Sodom lusted after "different" flesh, that is, they wanted to fornicate with ANGELS, who, though they were in the form of man, were not actually humans. It wasn't about a homosexual rape gang. It was about people who wanted to have some nirvana experience by bedding angels, who, it was often believed, gave humans secret knowledge and understanding, often through sexual liaisons.

See Genesis 6, as an example, re: the sons of God, something Jude mentions as one of the examples of ungodliness, before referring to Enoch, a tome in which fallen angels procreate with humans and give humans forbidden knowledge in the process.

Yes, there was fornication in Sodom and Gomorrah, but no actual proof of homosexuality. Not a single verse of it happening. No verse indicating it didn't, either. So the Bible is silent here, and so should we be, except for their lusting after angelic flesh.

Why then was it men that came after the angels, and not women? Would women not want that "forbidden knowledge" as well? I would think so, if your scenario were to play out as you say. This makes it quite obvious that "homo" activity was at play here, and not just desiring angelic flesh or supernatural knowledge.

Just because the word "homo" is not specifically used, certainly what happened there describes that kind of activity. That is like looking at the forest and saying there is no forest, only trees.

International Standard Version
Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them, which like them committed sexual sins and pursued homosexual activities, serve as an example of the punishment of eternal fire.

NET Bible
So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

New Living Translation
And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment.

English Standard Version
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

[KeptByTheWord]

What I am saying, Sis, is that "freak of nature" finds itself a very hurtful, negative term as a descriptor for someone born with a deformity. Using it here to describe hermaphrodites and others doesn't get a pass just because you wouldn't use the term in public toward someone with a deformity.

I realize it may not seem such a striking issue for you. I am trying to raise your awareness of how such a term can come across.

What if one of our members here at AFF has an undisclosed deformity, or has a sibling hermaphrodite? Don't you suppose reading you use the phrase "freak of nature" to describe someone with these genetic conditions would hurt their feelings?

That's all I intend here. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

I don't intend to hurt anyone's feelings. But whatever you do, don't read medical literature. Your feelings may never recover.

This discussion has gone beyond the attention it is due. I explained where the term came from, and you can't accept that it is a term to describe a wide range of physical abnormalities.

[votivesoul]

Why then was it men that came after the angels, and not women? Would women not want that "forbidden knowledge" as well? I would think so, if your scenario were to play out as you say. This makes it quite obvious that "homo" activity was at play here, and not just desiring angelic flesh or supernatural knowledge.

The texts don't tell us why women didn't attend the gathering. To say why is mere speculation; not much good comes from that, when trying to establish doctrine. Apart from this, nothing else is "quite obvious".

Just because the word "homo" is not specifically used, certainly what happened there describes that kind of activity. That is like looking at the forest and saying there is no forest, only trees.

Sis, it's not just that the word "homo" wasn't used, but that the word hetero was used to describe the nature of the flesh the men from Sodom desired. They wanted to engage in sexual activity with "flesh" that was different than their own, i.e. angelic, or not human. Did you check the link?

[KeptByTheWord]

The texts don't tell us why women didn't attend the gathering. To say why is mere speculation; not much good comes from that, when trying to establish doctrine. Apart from this, nothing else is "quite obvious".

The fact that women weren't present tells a lot. Whatever was happening was unnatural, perverted, and because it was only men involved, that would typically fall into the description of what is known as "homo" activity today.

Sis, it's not just that the word "homo" wasn't used, but that the word hetero was used to describe the nature of the flesh the men from Sodom desired. They wanted to engage in sexual activity with "flesh" that was different than their own, i.e. angelic, or not human. Did you check the link?

Unnatural se*ual activity was most certainly mentioned in this passage, and from that we can understand that the unnatural perverted se*ually immoral homose*ual state and activity that S & G had sunk to, was so bad that God had to destroy them.

[allstate1]

The fact that women weren't present tells a lot. Whatever was happening was unnatural, perverted, and because it was only men involved, that would typically fall into the description of what is known as "homo" activity today.



Unnatural se*ual activity was most certainly mentioned in this passage, and from that we can understand that the unnatural perverted se*ually immoral homose*ual state and activity that S & G had sunk to, was so bad that God had to destroy them.

Please reread Genesis 19:4. Tell me what "all the people" means to you.

[consapente89]

:smack good grief. Seems like lots of homos over here?

yano.....i'm beginning to see your point ..:nod

[Pressing-On]

Please reread Genesis 19:4. Tell me what "all the people" means to you.


"But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter."

It appears to be reiterating that ALL the men from every quarter of the city compassed the house. That's a lot of men.

[allstate1]

It appears to be reiterating that ALL the men from every quarter of the city compassed the house. That's a lot of men.

Well I read it as ALL the people. That would include females.

[Pressing-On]

Well I read it as ALL the people. That would include females.

Enosh:man is a masculine noun.

[allstate1]

Enosh:man is a masculine noun.

Are you saying that the word people here is from the word enosh?

[Pressing-On]

Are you saying that the word people here is from the word enosh?

I am saying that the text seems to be speaking of men and "all" people being men from every quarter. It doesn't say "the men, both young and old AND all the people". It seems to carry the idea that "all" the people were the men, both young and old. And "men" in that passage is defined as Enosh which is a masculine noun.

[KeptByTheWord]

I am saying that the text seems to be speaking of men and "all" people being men from every quarter. It doesn't say "the men, both young and old AND all the people". It seems to carry the idea that "all" the people were the men, both young and old. And "men" in that passage is defined as Enosh which is a masculine noun.

:thumbsup

[allstate1]

Oh well looks like I missed a party.

[Pressing-On]

Oh well looks like I missed a party.

Which party, the one in Sodom? :heeheehee

[Scott Pitta]

Church populations are far more interesting than sexual sins, real or otherwise.

[GodIsGreat]

If I did, and it was flat out false, I was quickly corrected. I don't go around posting Brother So and So allows Homosexual Pedophiles to teach Sunday School. Or Bishop Foofoofnick allows Lesbians to lead the choir. Without PROVING with evidence that these accusations are facts. You aren't doing that, but now send everyone off to find the evidence themselves? Are you for real? Or should I say how old are you? GodIsGreat? What does it look like? Why on earth does anyone other than YOU have to validate YOUR accusation? GIG, let's just put it on the record that you have no evidence for your statement.



Why am I not surprised? :lol




Seriously? You are posting under an alias, there is no relationship. You are a phantom, a nameless, faceless, voice. The responsibility is all on your shoulders, you opened your mouth, you are stringing up the preacher, but you don't want to prove YOUR comment. A right relationship between parent and child? Bro, go back and reread my post. I wasn't attempting to give parental advice. Not by a long shot.



You are rolling down a road and leaving everyone behind. My man, dig this, you are posting under an alias, you make an accusation, the accusation is not good. Why? Because while there may be homosexuals found on the platform in Church history, this might not be the case with your story. Who are you? "Hey, Pastor Buffoonish has homosexuals in his leadership, Pastor Crackenbush has Pedophiles in his Nursery school and HE ALLOWS IT!" No one knows you, you are hidden, and in the safety of a computer screen you pour gas, and then light the match. You then log off, sign out, and walk away from your computer to have sweet fellowship with the Lord. :lol

So, are you kidding me? You don't see anything wrong with that?




Really? Try this one on for size. Whoever spares the rod hates his child, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Stupidity is tied up in the mind of a child, but the rod of correction drives it far from him. The first wrong is you making a baseless accusation, the second wrong is for us to remain quite.



Excuse me? You don't get it? You are invisible, you are nameless, you are posting in anonymity. You can post all sorts of crazy things and then sit back to relax.




That's why it is all on you sonny Jim, because you are the only one who knows who you are.



Big deal. :lol



No, sorry, but the burden of proof is on you. As for me and my house, we will chalk it up to a disgruntled nameless individual using slander under the cloak anonymity.




Itching to know? Listen, I seriously believe that you don't know what I'm trying to tell you. There is no need for anyone to have to prove if your accusation is true. Why? Because all you have to do is provide the evidence. You want us to make phone calls, and knock doors, ask questions, do the research to only end up with egg on our face? How old are you? Obviously you just don't understand the power you possess. To throw something out there without a bit of evidence. An accusation which could cause issues which you will never lift a finger to remedy.

https://m.popkey.co/086937/GeYzD.gif

One of the biggest commonalities between people who refuse to access their brain power in it's totality. Is they make the grave mistake of assuming everybody is just like them.

Just because you have and perhaps still will let something false leak out of the whole in your face, doesn't mean everyone else does.

I merely made a true statement, hoping to get some insight from someone serious and intelligent, who could either relate, or perhaps even provide another perspective on the situation.

I was not looking for a immature forum junkie who's intoxicated with himself and seems to get a kick out of attempted to make people feel stupid with his outdated "humor".

I don't need to prove anything. My goal was not to convince you or anyone here on the forum. Like I said, I merely made a true statement, hoping to get some insight from someone serious and intelligent, who could either relate, or perhaps even provide another perspective on the situation.

I didn't send anyone off to do nothing. Did you go dig up the info for yourself? Probably not.

Your "record" is your record, feel free to put anything on it buddy! That freedom is afforded to you.

You must live on a 'gory details of gossip' diet.

BTW, it'll probably do you some good to take a fast from this forum. Or perhaps make up your mind NOT to be a lifer here. A good long forum detox might do you some good!

Let me help you flash.

shoo (ʃuː)
interj
go away!: used to drive away unwanted or annoying people, animals, etc
vb, shoos, shooing or shooed
1. (tr) to drive away by or as if by crying "shoo."
2. (intr) to cry "shoo."

That my friend is disrespect, even to a child.

Proverbs 13:24, the scripture you provided to justify shooing a child away is speaking of discipline not disrespect.

Also, I know that you weren't referring to parenting ... you set yourself up for that one bud!

If me stating a fact, is "stringing up" a preacher, then preachers string up preachers (not all), saints string up saints, preachers string up saints, and vice versa.

Really dude? Get Real.

Go back and re-read your post?? Ain't no body gots time fo dat! :happydance

Your right my accusation is not good. HOWEVER, it's true.

Pour gas, and then light a match? Dude, that's pretty extreme and sick thinking. If it matters to you, read my original post, then read the follow up from those who followed up.

EB, their are people who exist who have much more valuable things to do with their time than to post all kinds of crazy things, and sit back and relax. What a fulfilling life dude! Wow!

:yourock Bud!

[GodIsGreat]

I don't know what "Apostolic" churches you're hanging around, but yes, yes it is uncommon. Nigh on rare, bordering on the nonexistent, in fact.

If you're telling us the truth, be careful not to fall into hyperbole while attempting to convince us, because it will destroy any chance you have of doing so.

Expand your boundaries. It's called YouTube, ApostolicPreaching.com & HGR.

There are some Evangelist, Prophets, etc who refused to get tied up behind the pulpit on what they can and can't preach on.

It has been preach on by many highly creditable ministers among the apostolic movement.

[GodIsGreat]

That's now how it works. If I make the claim that you like to dress up like a clown and scare people, then say that anyone can confirm it for themselves, do you really expect anyone to take my word seriously? If you make a claim, you're expected to back it up on your own, not expect the rest of us to go rushing out and do the legwork for you.

Just to clarify bud. I wasn't expecting you or anyone else to do anything.

I didn't have to do any "legwork", I was a witness.

[KeptByTheWord]

Church populations are far more interesting than sexual sins, real or otherwise.

LOL... Talking about church populations is rife with its own problems, just like anything here on AFF. You never know from the original title of the thread what the end result of the discussion is going to be.

[Jito463]

Just to clarify bud. I wasn't expecting you or anyone else to do anything.

I didn't have to do any "legwork", I was a witness.

:bigbaby

Congratulations, the internet is full of "witnesses" of all sorts of things, and sometimes they're even true. If you didn't intend to prove anything, and you didn't expect us to prove it for you, what was the point of making the accusation? You accused EB of gossip, sounds to me like you're the one engaging in gossip.

[KeptByTheWord]

Just to clarify bud. I wasn't expecting you or anyone else to do anything.

I didn't have to do any "legwork", I was a witness.

If what you witnessed is being told to edify and encourage others, that is one thing.

But if you come here sharing things that border on gossip or hearsay, then you should be ready to face the barrage of questioning. You can't just come on here, and spout things about people, and expect everyone to just believe you, because you said it. That is what folks are trying to explain to you.

[GodIsGreat]

Sir, I was not asking for proof of your church membership. I was asking for proof to the post cited here.

In case you are wondering why I am laying your feet to the fire, let me share MY history with you...

Bro. Wilson was my pastor here in Michigan. Even as a young man, NJW was a man of strong character and integrity. I loved and respected his leadership, and do so today.

Do I think he walks on water? No! There are a few incidentals where he and I disagree, but I NEVER, not for one second, then or now doubted his deep sincerity and love for the lost.

Re degrees...Bishop Wilson has always encouraged education, but NEVER at the expense of truth and evangelism. If that is what you have gleaned from your time in his presence, you have missed much.

As for the unnamed musical director...no need to do so. I know his name. HOWEVER, if you think that was known AND tolerated, you are GREATLY mistaken!!! NJW would NEVER knowingly allow that to happen...NEVER!!

No disrespect here, but I don't give a rolling donut how long you were or have been a member of the TRC...coming here with your definite ax to grind with Bishop Wilson and Bro. Young is mighty low.

All of this leads me to ask: Why? What brings you here to accuse men of God of such things?

Did they not shake your hand one Sunday evening? Did Bishop or Bro. Young stop you in your tracks over a misdeed? Did they not move swift enough in the case of the aforementioned situation from back in the day? Did they deliver a Word from the Lord, and you took it personally as an attack?

What is up?

Here's the deal... this "cowgirl" has a suggestion...give them a call. Be as open and upfront with the elders, in the same manner you have here. Give them a list of your grips. Tell them they are arrogant snobs, because that is what you really think, right? Tell them you think they tolerated homosexuality for the sake of music...oh I would LOVE to hear their answer to that!!

Please, do it up right. Let these two fine men of God confront their accuser, and get back with us...when you can.

In case you are wondering why I am laying your feet to the fire, let me share MY history with you...

Bro. Wilson was my pastor here in Michigan. Even as a young man, NJW was a man of strong character and integrity. I loved and respected his leadership, and do so today.

Do I think he walks on water? No! There are a few incidentals where he and I disagree, but I NEVER, not for one second, then or now doubted his deep sincerity and love for the lost.

Re degrees...Bishop Wilson has always encouraged education, but NEVER at the expense of truth and evangelism. If that is what you have gleaned from your time in his presence, you have missed much.

Barb, this is not all I gleaned from my time in his presence. However, when a man says that a city will be won when they see that everyone in the church has high level degree's, and mentions nothing about what established the apostolic movement here in the US (mind you he spoke quite awhile after he made that statement).

The focused was on the city being won because of a church full of members who have degrees.

He made this statement days after Pastor Young made almost the identical statement.

I was shocked! Just like I was shocked when as church (only a few saints refused to) we stood hands lifted in the air singing "the God head 3 in 1, father, spirit, son".

I happen to know why I believe what I believe. Just because NJW had his hands lifted and singing a trinity song, doesn't make it right.

I can truely go on and on. I mentioned less than 5 % of things that I witness, which have gone on uncorrected.

As for the unnamed musical director...no need to do so. I know his name. HOWEVER, if you think that was known AND tolerated, you are GREATLY mistaken!!! NJW would NEVER knowingly allow that to happen...NEVER!!

How do you know this Barb?

No disrespect here, but I don't give a rolling donut how long you were or have been a member of the TRC...coming here with your definite ax to grind with Bishop Wilson and Bro. Young is mighty low.

And, the untold things that happen, which I will not mentioned on this forum is not low?

All of this leads me to ask: Why? What brings you here to accuse men of God of such things?

Barb, like I said before I barely mentioned anything about all that has took place. I mentioned in my reply to EB, that I was actually looking for someone who could relate, or even provide another perspective.

Did they not shake your hand one Sunday evening? Did Bishop or Bro. Young stop you in your tracks over a misdeed? Did they not move swift enough in the case of the aforementioned situation from back in the day? Did they deliver a Word from the Lord, and you took it personally as an attack?

I'm not the saint your thinking of. I'm not a simple saint who is easily offended. I probably shook Bishops hand less than 20 times and Pastors hand less than 30. I've been there many years without a handshake for many Sundays.

No misdeed at all.

I barely ever came to them about anything.

As far as feeling like I was personal attacked, no. Was I offended at something they preached, no. TRC is a very easy church to be saved at with regards to the preaching. I have been convicted by God through the preaching, but never offended at the preaching or preach for what they preached.

Some people allow people to know them a certain way, and allow others to see them in a total different light.

Anytime I think I see something or "just know something is a particular way", the very first thing I do is challenge my perception of the situation. If it's important enough, I'll flip it several different ways, and try to see it from another light.

What is up?

Here's the deal... this "cowgirl" has a suggestion

I owe you an apology. I shouldn't have called you a cowgirl. I don't know you, your age, or anything else. So I sincerely apologize for calling you a cowgirl.

...give them a call.

I'm not going to give them a call. No, I'm not afraid. It'll be a waste of time.

Be as open and upfront with the elders, in the same manner you have here. Give them a list of your grips.

Barb, I won't tell "my list of grips" to them. I'll pray through and move on.

Tell them they are arrogant snobs, because that is what you really think, right?

Not exactly. I don't believe that their arrogant snobs. I don't believe that NJW is a arrogant snob. However, I do believe that CMY is.

Tell them you think they tolerated homosexuality for the sake of music...oh I would LOVE to hear their answer to that!!

Unfortunately Barb, that reason is the same reason preachers have givin highly creditable evangelist who confronted them after God showed it to the evangelist in prayer. Some preachers have even lied to the evangelist to keep the person playing music for the church.

You act as if it doesn't happen.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Your right my accusation is not good. HOWEVER, it's true.


No, it's not true.

You're a talker, and you have no proof.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'll pray through and move on.

Sounds like a great idea. :nod

[GodIsGreat]

Sir, I was not asking for proof of your church membership. I was asking for proof to the post cited here.

In case you are wondering why I am laying your feet to the fire, let me share MY history with you...

Bro. Wilson was my pastor here in Michigan. Even as a young man, NJW was a man of strong character and integrity. I loved and respected his leadership, and do so today.

Do I think he walks on water? No! There are a few incidentals where he and I disagree, but I NEVER, not for one second, then or now doubted his deep sincerity and love for the lost.

Re degrees...Bishop Wilson has always encouraged education, but NEVER at the expense of truth and evangelism. If that is what you have gleaned from your time in his presence, you have missed much.

As for the unnamed musical director...no need to do so. I know his name. HOWEVER, if you think that was known AND tolerated, you are GREATLY mistaken!!! NJW would NEVER knowingly allow that to happen...NEVER!!

No disrespect here, but I don't give a rolling donut how long you were or have been a member of the TRC...coming here with your definite ax to grind with Bishop Wilson and Bro. Young is mighty low.

All of this leads me to ask: Why? What brings you here to accuse men of God of such things?

Did they not shake your hand one Sunday evening? Did Bishop or Bro. Young stop you in your tracks over a misdeed? Did they not move swift enough in the case of the aforementioned situation from back in the day? Did they deliver a Word from the Lord, and you took it personally as an attack?

What is up?

Here's the deal... this "cowgirl" has a suggestion...give them a call. Be as open and upfront with the elders, in the same manner you have here. Give them a list of your grips. Tell them they are arrogant snobs, because that is what you really think, right? Tell them you think they tolerated homosexuality for the sake of music...oh I would LOVE to hear their answer to that!!

Please, do it up right. Let these two fine men of God confront their accuser, and get back with us...when you can.

:bigbaby

Congratulations, the internet is full of "witnesses" of all sorts of things, and sometimes they're even true. If you didn't intend to prove anything, and you didn't expect us to prove it for you, what was the point of making the accusation? You accused EB of gossip, sounds to me like you're the one engaging in gossip.

You are quick buddy! Please don't tell me that you receive a email alert when someone replies to this thread or your post.?.

Gossip? Is not 99.8% of everything AFF gossip?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'll pray through and move on.

This still sounds like the best idea you've had. :heeheehee

[GodIsGreat]

If what you witnessed is being told to edify and encourage others, that is one thing.

But if you come here sharing things that border on gossip or hearsay, then you should be ready to face the barrage of questioning. You can't just come on here, and spout things about people, and expect everyone to just believe you, because you said it. That is what folks are trying to explain to you.

I'm not EXPECTING people to believe me. I don't have a problem with the questioning.

I'm just not going to provide the "proof" people are asking for.

I clearly saw their point from the beginning.

[GodIsGreat]

No, it's not true.

You're a talker, and you have no proof.

A huge ego with a small brain is a bad combination to bank on.

EB = :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

[GodIsGreat]

This still sounds like the best idea you've had. :heeheehee

Bro, on a serious note. I would imagine that having a family would require focus and strategic engagement. Am I wrong?

Please tell me your secret to managing a family and being a avid contributor on this forum without racking up IOU's with your family?

Elvis NEEDS to leave the building.

Nice knowing ya Elv!

[Evang.Benincasa]

A huge ego with a small brain is a bad combination to bank on.

EB = :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

Looks like when you are exposed you blow a gasket?

Yep, you had an issue so you came to sow some seeds of hate.

You need to follow your own advice and pray through and move on.

Face it, what you posted wasn't true, and now you are upset?

:heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

Bro, on a serious note. I would imagine that having a family would require focus and strategic engagement. Am I wrong?

Please tell me your secret to managing a family and being a avid contributor on this forum without racking up IOU's with your family?

Elvis NEEDS to leave the building.

Nice knowing ya Elv!

Looks like you are having a pretty good melt down right about now?

Could it be that you were the homosexual who was attending that church?

[GodIsGreat]

Looks like when you are exposed you blow a gasket?

Yep, you had an issue so you came to sow some seeds of hate.

You need to follow your own advice and pray through and move on.

Face it, what you posted wasn't true, and now you are upset?

:heeheehee

Actually flash, what I said is true. "Exposed"? Dude you must live on the low plains of life, to believe that someone would come to a forum to lie on men who been in the ministry for years.

In your narrow minded assumptions, I came here to sow seeds of hate because I have an issue ... really?

I will admit, that I have an issue. However, I have gone to some creditable preachers in our movement, and told them far more than what I disclosed here.

Not one of them accuse me for trying to sow a seed of hate.

You need to replace your mind with the brain power of a millennial ... the actually THINK.

You too need to follow my advice. Let your ego go, and move on Elvis.

I'm not that person who you can manipulation, by telling me what I think. That may work well with people you know, but not here Bud!

Furthermore, I have enough emotional and mental intelligence to not allow people on a forum to upset me.

Boost your thinking. Not everybody lives that low.

[GodIsGreat]

Looks like you are having a pretty good melt down right about now?

Could it be that you were the homosexual who was attending that church?

In order to make yourself feel better, you must assume that I'm having a meltdown?

I've never had a melt down in my life Bud!

Me being the homosexual ... that's laughable. I'm 1000% MAN! No limp in my wrist featherweight!

The lights are out in the building Elvis! Don't get locked in ... :thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

Actually flash, what I said is true.

You have no evidence. You can say all sorts of things, and they will be just your statements. You see the difference? You came to a forum, and said there was a homosexual on the platform and everyone in leadership knows about it. But you are squirming around and not proving anything. Therefore it is not true. No evidence, no proof, no truth. But the pray through comment you made doesn't seem to be working? Therefore we can see that is also not true.


"Exposed"?

Yes :nod



Dude you must live on the low plains of life, to believe that someone would come to a forum to lie on men who been in the ministry for years.

Happens all the time. You aren't first, you won't be the last.




In your narrow minded assumptions, I came here to sow seeds of hate because I have an issue ... really?

Yes, really.


I will admit, that I have an issue.

We can notice that. You make it quite vividly apparent.



However, I have gone to some creditable preachers in our movement, and told them far more than what I disclosed here.

So, whatever they told you didn't work out for you? Therefore you felt obliged to offer us your statements without proof? Give it a rest, go take your own advice and pray through and move on. You are under an alias, no one knows who you are but we are to believe you?


Not one of them accuse me for trying to sow a seed of hate.

Well, they should of. Because you have issues. Coming to a forum under an alias pretty much sealed the deal.


You need to replace your mind with the brain power of a millennial ... the actually THINK. You too need to follow my advice. Let your ego go, and move on Elvis.

Take the advise of someone under an alias, hiding behind the anonymity of a computer screen? Do you believe in a flat earth?


I'm not that person who you can manipulation, by telling me what I think. That may work well with people you know, but not here Bud!


Furthermore, I have enough emotional and mental intelligence to not allow people on a forum to upset me.

Then you are doing a pretty good job faking it? :lol


Boost your thinking. Not everybody lives that low.

Looks like you do Mr Alias Who Exposes the Wicked in Pentecost.

Good grief, go pray through, and move on.

[Evang.Benincasa]

In order to make yourself feel better, you must assume that I'm having a meltdown?

I'm not assuming anything, I'm witnessing one.


I've never had a melt down in my life Bud!

First time for everything.


Me being the homosexual ... that's laughable. I'm 1000% MAN! No limp in my wrist featherweight!

You sure about that? You look like your having a hissy fit right here.


The lights are out in the building Elvis! Don't get locked in ... :thumbsup

Yep, you are pretty upset for someone who was supposed to be bearing truth.

:laffatu

[allstate1]

A huge ego with a small brain is a bad combination to bank on.

EB = :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

We can agree on this. EB fits that mold.

[Jito463]

You are quick buddy! Please don't tell me that you receive a email alert when someone replies to this thread or your post.?.

Gossip? Is not 99.8% of everything AFF gossip?

Nope, just happened to be reading the forum and saw your post.

And I notice you didn't deny the accusation, you just tried to deflect it.

[allstate1]

Which party, the one in Sodom? :heeheehee

yep!

[Pressing-On]

yep!

Oh, so Bro. Epley was right? :heeheehee

[allstate1]

Oh, so Bro. Epley was right? :heeheehee

seems to be!

[aegsm76]

seems to be!

And you seem to have been struck spiritually blind.

[allstate1]

Church populations are far more interesting than sexual sins, real or otherwise.

Depends on who you ask!

[allstate1]

And you seem to have been struck spiritually blind.

how so?

[Evang.Benincasa]

how so?

Your homosexual?

[Barb]

Just to clarify bud. I wasn't expecting you or anyone else to do anything.

I didn't have to do any "legwork", I was a witness.

"Witness?" Witness to what? I am still asking for PROOF that the elders in question KNOWINGLY allowed sin to abide in the music department.

Not what you THINK you saw, but hands on proof. Otherwise, your communication here is hearsay. Speculation. The gift of suspicion. A lie.

[Barb]

In case you are wondering why I am laying your feet to the fire, let me share MY history with you...

Bro. Wilson was my pastor here in Michigan. Even as a young man, NJW was a man of strong character and integrity. I loved and respected his leadership, and do so today.

Do I think he walks on water? No! There are a few incidentals where he and I disagree, but I NEVER, not for one second, then or now doubted his deep sincerity and love for the lost.

Re degrees...Bishop Wilson has always encouraged education, but NEVER at the expense of truth and evangelism. If that is what you have gleaned from your time in his presence, you have missed much.

Barb, this is not all I gleaned from my time in his presence. However, when a man says that a city will be won when they see that everyone in the church has high level degree's, and mentions nothing about what established the apostolic movement here in the US (mind you he spoke quite awhile after he made that statement).

The focused was on the city being won because of a church full of members who have degrees.

He made this statement days after Pastor Young made almost the identical statement.

I was shocked! Just like I was shocked when as church (only a few saints refused to) we stood hands lifted in the air singing "the God head 3 in 1, father, spirit, son".

I happen to know why I believe what I believe. Just because NJW had his hands lifted and singing a trinity song, doesn't make it right.

I can truely go on and on. I mentioned less than 5 % of things that I witness, which have gone on uncorrected.

As for the unnamed musical director...no need to do so. I know his name. HOWEVER, if you think that was known AND tolerated, you are GREATLY mistaken!!! NJW would NEVER knowingly allow that to happen...NEVER!!

How do you know this Barb?

No disrespect here, but I don't give a rolling donut how long you were or have been a member of the TRC...coming here with your definite ax to grind with Bishop Wilson and Bro. Young is mighty low.

And, the untold things that happen, which I will not mentioned on this forum is not low?

All of this leads me to ask: Why? What brings you here to accuse men of God of such things?

Barb, like I said before I barely mentioned anything about all that has took place. I mentioned in my reply to EB, that I was actually looking for someone who could relate, or even provide another perspective.

Did they not shake your hand one Sunday evening? Did Bishop or Bro. Young stop you in your tracks over a misdeed? Did they not move swift enough in the case of the aforementioned situation from back in the day? Did they deliver a Word from the Lord, and you took it personally as an attack?

I'm not the saint your thinking of. I'm not a simple saint who is easily offended. I probably shook Bishops hand less than 20 times and Pastors hand less than 30. I've been there many years without a handshake for many Sundays.

No misdeed at all.

I barely ever came to them about anything.

As far as feeling like I was personal attacked, no. Was I offended at something they preached, no. TRC is a very easy church to be saved at with regards to the preaching. I have been convicted by God through the preaching, but never offended at the preaching or preach for what they preached.

Some people allow people to know them a certain way, and allow others to see them in a total different light.

Anytime I think I see something or "just know something is a particular way", the very first thing I do is challenge my perception of the situation. If it's important enough, I'll flip it several different ways, and try to see it from another light.

What is up?

Here's the deal... this "cowgirl" has a suggestion

I owe you an apology. I shouldn't have called you a cowgirl. I don't know you, your age, or anything else. So I sincerely apologize for calling you a cowgirl.

...give them a call.

I'm not going to give them a call. No, I'm not afraid. It'll be a waste of time.

Be as open and upfront with the elders, in the same manner you have here. Give them a list of your grips.

Barb, I won't tell "my list of grips" to them. I'll pray through and move on.

Tell them they are arrogant snobs, because that is what you really think, right?

Not exactly. I don't believe that their arrogant snobs. I don't believe that NJW is a arrogant snob. However, I do believe that CMY is.

Tell them you think they tolerated homosexuality for the sake of music...oh I would LOVE to hear their answer to that!!

Unfortunately Barb, that reason is the same reason preachers have givin highly creditable evangelist who confronted them after God showed it to the evangelist in prayer. Some preachers have even lied to the evangelist to keep the person playing music for the church.

You act as if it doesn't happen.


Thank you for the apology. Accepted.

Re your response above, as you didn't make a distinction between what I posted, and your answers to me, I was having a hard time following. So I am not going to hit every point...just to say this re the song 'How Great Is Our God...'

TRC must have changed the lyric since that time you heard it because I heard it on Live stream a few months ago, and they changed that line. I can't recall exactly how they worded it, however, it was changed.

As for that song, I am Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal to the bone, but have no problem singing that line. Whatever the doctrinal stand of the composer, I understand God to be Father, Spirit, Son...ONE God.

The fact that Bishop Wilson may have sung that lyric indicates to you he is less than Oneness...that just proves to me that you have indeed not gleaned anything in his presence. He most definitely is Oneness through and through.

And as you and I are not EVER going to come to an understanding on TRC, it is best that we not continue to march around this mountain forever. Having said that, I will step up when I see you posting things in the future that I feel to be remarks by a disgruntled saint, with no facts supporting.

[CC1]

T I am not going to hit every point...just to say this re the song 'How Great Is Our God...'

TRC must have changed the lyric since that time you heard it because I heard it on Live stream a few months ago, and they changed that line. I can't recall exactly how they worded it, however, it was changed.

As for that song, I am Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal to the bone, but have no problem singing that line. Whatever the doctrinal stand of the composer, I understand God to be Father, Spirit, Son...ONE God.

The fact that Bishop Wilson may have sung that lyric indicates to you he is less than Oneness...that just proves to me that you have indeed not gleaned anything in his presence. He most definitely is Oneness through and through.

And as you and I are not EVER going to come to an understanding on TRC, it is best that we not continue to march around this mountain forever. Having said that, I will step up when I see you posting things in the future that I feel to be remarks by a disgruntled saint, with no facts supporting.

I am kind of shocked that any Oneness person would have a problem with the lyrics stating "The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son". I thought the whole point of Oneness doctrine was that the three are one. I guess they don't like trinitarians stating that because it flys in the face of the narrative a lot of Oneness folks promote that trinitarians believe in "three gods".

[mfblume]

I am kind of shocked that any Oneness person would have a problem with the lyrics stating "The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son". I thought the whole point of Oneness doctrine was that the three are one. I guess they don't like trinitarians stating that because it flys in the face of the narrative a lot of Oneness folks promote that trinitarians believe in "three gods".

There is nothing wrong with that song. It's as oneness as can be.

[Barb]

I am kind of shocked that any Oneness person would have a problem with the lyrics stating "The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son". I thought the whole point of Oneness doctrine was that the three are one. I guess they don't like trinitarians stating that because it flys in the face of the narrative a lot of Oneness folks promote that trinitarians believe in "three gods".

There is nothing wrong with that song. It's as oneness as can be.

Thank you!! :thumbsup

[houston]

There is nothing wrong with that song. It's as oneness as can be.

It's a Trinitarian song. :)

[Jito463]

I am kind of shocked that any Oneness person would have a problem with the lyrics stating "The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son". I thought the whole point of Oneness doctrine was that the three are one. I guess they don't like trinitarians stating that because it flys in the face of the narrative a lot of Oneness folks promote that trinitarians believe in "three gods".

If I have to sing it, I prefer:
The Godhead in the son
Lord You are our God

Nevertheless, I really don't like this song. There are far better Oneness songs than this one.

Frankly, I think we in Oneness tend to focus far too heavily on the number three in relation to the Godhead. It just lends too much credence to the trinitarian way of thinking. No wonder we have people on here (amongst others) who used to be Oneness, but regressed to a trinitarian viewpoint.

[Jito463]

It's a Trinitarian song. :)

:thumbsup

[mfblume]

If I have to sing it, I prefer:
The Godhead in the son
Lord You are our God

Nevertheless, I really don't like this song. There are far better Oneness songs than this one.

Frankly, I think we in Oneness tend to focus far too heavily on the number three in relation to the Godhead. It just lends too much credence to the trinitarian way of thinking. No wonder we have people on here (amongst others) who used to be Oneness, but regressed to a trinitarian viewpoint.
I disagree. I think oneness people are too worried about the word three. These three are one.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[mfblume]

It's a Trinitarian song. :)

Actually, no. It may fit both views but it is not purporting the trinity as the trinity is taught.

In fact, despite the author of it, we read...

The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son
The Lion and the Lamb

The lion and lamb is JESUS in Revelation. It's not Father and Son. It's THE SON alone. So, by using the titles that refer to Jesus as SON after having stated God is Father, Spirit and Son, it actually implies Jesus is Father, Son and Holy GHost.

[houston]

Actually, no. It may fit both views but it is not purporting the trinity as the trinity is taught.

In fact, despite the author of it, we read...

The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son
The Lion and the Lamb

The lion and lamb is JESUS in Revelation. It's not Father and Son. It's THE SON alone. So, by using the titles that refer to Jesus as SON after having stated God is Father, Spirit and Son, it actually implies Jesus is Father, Son and Holy GHost.
I don't think anyone refers to the Father as the lion. But, no. You can't make it yours. It's ours.

[Esaias]

I don't think anyone refers to the Father as the lion. But, no. You can't make it yours. It's ours.

Wrong:

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
(1 Corinthians 3:21-23 KJV)

[Barb]

Actually, no. It may fit both views but it is not purporting the trinity as the trinity is taught.

In fact, despite the author of it, we read...

The Godhead Three in One
Father Spirit Son
The Lion and the Lamb

The lion and lamb is JESUS in Revelation. It's not Father and Son. It's THE SON alone. So, by using the titles that refer to Jesus as SON after having stated God is Father, Spirit and Son, it actually implies Jesus is Father, Son and Holy GHost.
:nod

[mfblume]

I don't think anyone refers to the Father as the lion.

I never said anyone did. That's my point.

But, no. You can't make it yours. It's ours.

Sorry, I go by the book and the song does not violate the book.

[allstate1]

Your homosexual?

Not tonight!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Not tonight!

Gross. :vomit

[GodIsGreat]

"Witness?" Witness to what? I am still asking for PROOF that the elders in question KNOWINGLY allowed sin to abide in the music department.

Not what you THINK you saw, but hands on proof. Otherwise, your communication here is hearsay. Speculation. The gift of suspicion. A lie.

Barb, first you ask for me proof regarding the homosexual in question. Although I didn't give you his name.

You admitted that you knew exactly who I'm speaking of. Did you not?

Know that YOU proved that truth to YOURSELF. You now are asking me to prove that the ministry knew.

If I were to locate the church CD's and provide them to you, where we as a church was indirectly being ask to tolerate this, you still wouldn't believe me.

The ONLY "proof" that would satisfy you, is if YOU were there yourself.

Stop being so defensive over a situation you know nothing about.

You asked for proof about the homosexual. YOU proved it to YOURSELF ... now I'm absolutely wrong that the leadership didn't know.

With you, it's not about proof. It's about your idea of NJW and CMY, and your unwillingness to believe this truth.

What are the chances that I told a half truth? You proved a part of my "accusation" to be true.

Really?

[GodIsGreat]

Thank you for the apology. Accepted.

Re your response above, as you didn't make a distinction between what I posted, and your answers to me, I was having a hard time following. So I am not going to hit every point...just to say this re the song 'How Great Is Our God...'

TRC must have changed the lyric since that time you heard it because I heard it on Live stream a few months ago, and they changed that line. I can't recall exactly how they worded it, however, it was changed.

As for that song, I am Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal to the bone, but have no problem singing that line. Whatever the doctrinal stand of the composer, I understand God to be Father, Spirit, Son...ONE God.

The fact that Bishop Wilson may have sung that lyric indicates to you he is less than Oneness...that just proves to me that you have indeed not gleaned anything in his presence. He most definitely is Oneness through and through.

And as you and I are not EVER going to come to an understanding on TRC, it is best that we not continue to march around this mountain forever. Having said that, I will step up when I see you posting things in the future that I feel to be remarks by a disgruntled saint, with no facts supporting.

YOU said that YOU knew exactly who the homosexual is. What I said about the a homosexual being the music director IS FACT.

Barb, that song was written by a trinity believer (Chris Thomlin) in 2004.

Do you really believe that Chris Thomlin was writing about what we believe, or about what HE believes as a trinity believer?

So Barb, are you oneness to the bone by tradition, or by YOUR personal revelation of who God is?

The Bible is CLEAR:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Here are Chris Thomlin's Lyrics:

The Godhead Three in One <---- That Barb is trinitarian
Father, Spirit, Son
Lion and the Lamb
Lion and the Lamb

Yes, TRC has changed the words to the song, after a young adult who played in service, took a stand and refused to sing that song.

That young adult was the final straw.

Their is enough people in TRC who ACTUALLY know what they say they believe, and their were a few people who made enough of a issue with it.

You might want to read:

God in 13 Dimensions
The Supreme Godhead

Author: Kenneth Reeves

Two of the BEST oneness books.

When you have a revelation of the Godhead, it's become impossible to agree or see nothing wrong with that line by Chris Thomlin.

Beautiful song, but NOT completely true.

My apologies on how I replied to you. I know my reply is quite confusing.

This is the most active I have ever been in a forum, and I really don't know how to do the multi-quote thingy.

[GodIsGreat]

Gross. :vomit

Dude, what's up with you and this homo stuff. Chill!

[mfblume]

Barb, that song was written by a trinity believer (Chris Thomlin) in 2004.

Do you really believe that Chris Thomlin was writing about what we believe, or about what HE believes as a trinity believer?

So Barb, are you oneness to the bone by tradition, or by YOUR personal revelation of who God is?

The Bible is CLEAR:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Here are Chris Thomlin's Lyrics:

The Godhead Three in One <---- That Barb is trinitarian
Father, Spirit, Son
Lion and the Lamb
Lion and the Lamb

Yes, TRC has changed the words to the song, after a young adult who played in service, took a stand and refused to sing that song.

That young adult was the final straw.

Their is enough people in TRC who ACTUALLY know what they say they believe, and their were a few people who made enough of a issue with it.

You might want to read:

God in 13 Dimensions
The Supreme Godhead

Author: Kenneth Reeves

Two of the BEST oneness books.

When you have a revelation of the Godhead, it's become impossible to agree or see nothing wrong with that line by Chris Thomlin.

Beautiful song, but NOT completely true.

My apologies on how I replied to you. I know my reply is quite confusing.

This is the most active I have ever been in a forum, and I really don't know how to do the multi-quote thingy.

It is not necessarily trinitarian. Trinitarian says THREE PERSONS in one God. the song never said persons. Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three "somethings" but not persons. Call them offices, roles or manifestations, but those three are one God. We could even say those three are one person. And the song does not violate that at all.

And I have a genuine revelation of oneness. Was thrilled when I got it about 40 years ago.

:thumbsup

In fact some trinitarians I know refuse to say THREE IN ONE, but refer to Jesus as ONE IN THREE.

[mfblume]

Dude, what's up with you and this homo stuff. Chill!

You defending homos, too???


j/k

[GodIsGreat]

I disagree. I think oneness people are too worried about the word three. These three are one.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

According to David k Bernard's book 'The Oneness of God', he said that
1 John 5:7 was placed in the Bible after the council of nicea.

I have never studied it out. So I don't personally know if this is true.

I do know that line in that song is not oneness.

[GodIsGreat]

You defending homos, too???


j/k

No. The fact that he has came close to accusing two people for being homo, makes me wonder if he's dancing in the closet on the down-low! Lol!

[GodIsGreat]

Nope, just happened to be reading the forum and saw your post.

And I notice you didn't deny the accusation, you just tried to deflect it.

What accusation?

Are you skimming through this thread?

[Jito463]

What accusation?

Are you skimming through this thread?

Are you?

You accused EB of gossip, sounds to me like you're the one engaging in gossip.

[mfblume]

According to David k Bernard's book 'The Oneness of God', he said that
1 John 5:7 was placed in the Bible after the council of nicea.

But he also said this in that book:

Whether a person believes that 1 John 5:7 was originally part of the Bible or that it was a later interpolation, it does not teach three persons of God but rather reaffirms the Bible's teaching of one indivisible God with various manifestation.


I think it is unwise to start talking about verses not being genuine. If we start that, then the trinitarians will start saying we change the bible like the JW's.


I have never studied it out. So I don't personally know if this is true.

I do know that line in that song is not oneness.

I disagree. And I am as oneness as oneness can be. :)

You do not see Father Son and Holy Ghost as three modes?

Three modes are one God or one person. What's not oneness about that?

[Barb]

Barb, first you ask for me proof regarding the homosexual in question. Although I didn't give you his name.

You admitted that you knew exactly who I'm speaking of. Did you not?

Know that YOU proved that truth to YOURSELF. You now are asking me to prove that the ministry knew.

If I were to locate the church CD's and provide them to you, where we as a church was indirectly being ask to tolerate this, you still wouldn't believe me.

The ONLY "proof" that would satisfy you, is if YOU were there yourself.

Stop being so defensive over a situation you know nothing about.

You asked for proof about the homosexual. YOU proved it to YOURSELF ... now I'm absolutely wrong that the leadership didn't know.

With you, it's not about proof. It's about your idea of NJW and CMY, and your unwillingness to believe this truth.

What are the chances that I told a half truth? You proved a part of my "accusation" to be true.

Really?


You are SO off base here, it is UNBELIEVABLE!!

I was not asking for proof that the dude was gay. I am asking, as are other LONG TIME members here that you provide absolute proof that the bishop and pastor knew AND excused it...PROOF!!

That they knew about it goes without saying, but he was NOT allowed to stay!!

With YOU it's not about anything but trying to malign two men of God, and I will stand on a chair to fight you over this. You absolutely have an ax to grind, and it sickens me.

Give me PROOF they knew and tolerated it. NOT hearsay. PROOF. A video. Some recording that you all were "indirectly asked to tolerate this." If you provide it, and it says what you claim, I will have no choice but to admit I am wrong.

But I know Bishop Nathaniel Wilson well enough to KNOW this did not happen!!

Admins: if you want me to stop hammering on this, I will...until that time, consider this a tug of war. I have never, as far back as the Bro. Yohe days picked at something this hard, and I apologize to anyone who thinks I am beating a dead horse, but this angers me!!

[Barb]

YOU said that YOU knew exactly who the homosexual is. What I said about the a homosexual being the music director IS FACT.

Barb, that song was written by a trinity believer (Chris Thomlin) in 2004.

Do you really believe that Chris Thomlin was writing about what we believe, or about what HE believes as a trinity believer?

So Barb, are you oneness to the bone by tradition, or by YOUR personal revelation of who God is?

The Bible is CLEAR:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Here are Chris Thomlin's Lyrics:

The Godhead Three in One <---- That Barb is trinitarian
Father, Spirit, Son
Lion and the Lamb
Lion and the Lamb

Yes, TRC has changed the words to the song, after a young adult who played in service, took a stand and refused to sing that song.

That young adult was the final straw.

Their is enough people in TRC who ACTUALLY know what they say they believe, and their were a few people who made enough of a issue with it.

You might want to read:

God in 13 Dimensions
The Supreme Godhead

Author: Kenneth Reeves

Two of the BEST oneness books.

When you have a revelation of the Godhead, it's become impossible to agree or see nothing wrong with that line by Chris Thomlin.

Beautiful song, but NOT completely true.

My apologies on how I replied to you. I know my reply is quite confusing.

This is the most active I have ever been in a forum, and I really don't know how to do the multi-quote thingy.

EB, your a real idiot. Are you married to your wife or this forum. You, a evangelist? Shouldn't you use your time to get a message from heaven, instead of wasting your time on this forum.

Otherwise, you'll end up blabbing your ego over Gods holy desk? :thumbsup

I feel for anyone who is forced by relationship to deal with you and your ego on a regular basis.

You're absolutely ridiculous!

On the front end, we see ego. On the back end is a insecure "man".

Again Elvis :yourock

According to David k Bernard's book 'The Oneness of God', he said that
1 John 5:7 was placed in the Bible after the council of nicea.

I have never studied it out. So I don't personally know if this is true.

I do know that line in that song is not oneness.

First of all, I am third generation Apostolic Oneness...65 years in and around the Church. I thank you for your concern, but I know who Jesus is. Thank you.

As to the song, that is YOUR opinion. But here's the deal...opinions are like noses. We all have one, and some are more attractive than others. IF that sone were speaking about 3 Persons in the godhead, I would join you in your view. It does not, IN MY OPINION.

Finally...how dare you attack Bro. Beni!! Who are YOU to call this man of God an idiot? Your post is being reported, and it is the first time in lo these many years I have done so.

[houston]

No. The fact that he has came close to accusing two people for being homo, makes me wonder if he's dancing in the closet on the down-low! Lol!

Oh my heck.

[allstate1]

Gross. :vomit

OH chill! Im not gay. Just proving a point how a couple of vague post can lead to misinterpretation. However I may find what you are attracted to gross!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

OH chill! Im not gay. Just proving a point how a couple of vague post can lead to misinterpretation. However I may find what you are attracted to gross!!

Usually those who are comfortable about kidding that their homosexuals usually are homosexual. You have issues. Which one of them is perversion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Dude, what's up with you and this homo stuff. Chill!

Are you skimming your own posts?

You are the one who FIRST accused a man of being a homosexual and his pastor allowing it. GIG, you are a liar.