May I smoke here??!

[aak1972]

I would like to know why tobacco is a sin? Is it b/c its unhealthy? If thats the case a lot of things could be added to the list. Sugar, sodium, and phenylalanine. The last one is found in diet drinks and is known to cause multiple health issues. Is it b/c of the addiction? I have read that nicotine has the same addictive qualities as herion. If thats the case we should still adhere to the preachers I heard years ago preaching against caffiene.

[jtork]

OHHHH - don't get me on my soapbox with this!

[aak1972]

OHHHH - don't get me on my soapbox with this!

Please!!!

[Innocuous]

Smoking is not a sin. It's unwise, like eating too much of the wrong stuff, but not a sin.

[jtork]

You probably won't get many responses on this - I don't believe bible-thumpers can defend this - all the other stuff you listed is just as unhealthy if not unhealthier as smoking. They like to quote the "strong drink" scripture about drinking alcohol but alcoholic beverages are NOT the only strong drink - they want to preach against smoking the whole time downing cokes, coffee and fried chicken - but you let them catch me with a cigarette and oh my goodness - I am defiling my body, the temple of God (if they can say that much without stuffing their mouth full of fat infested, carbohydrate filled food) :) - does that state how I feel about it - LOL. Let me smoke 10 cigarettes a week and compare my health to someone who eats 10 meals a week at a fast food restaurant and let's see who is in better health - I would bet any amount of money I WOULD BE IN MUCH BETTER HEALTH!!!

[KWSS1976]

I don't think smoking is a sin but it is unheathy but then again so is alot of other things in the world.. after all where in the bible does it say smoking is a sin..There is enough stuff in the world we breath in without having to add smokes to the mix....

[aak1972]

You probably won't get many responses on this - I don't believe bible-thumpers can defend this - all the other stuff you listed is just as unhealthy if not unhealthier as smoking. They like to quote the "strong drink" scripture about drinking alcohol but alcoholic beverages are NOT the only strong drink - they want to preach against smoking the whole time downing cokes, coffee and fried chicken - but you let them catch me with a cigarette and oh my goodness - I am defiling my body, the temple of God (if they can say that much without stuffing their mouth full of fat infested, carbohydrate filled food) :) - does that state how I feel about it - LOL. Let me smoke 10 cigarettes a week and compare my health to someone who eats 10 meals a week at a fast food restaurant and let's see who is in better health - I would bet any amount of money I WOULD BE IN MUCH BETTER HEALTH!!!

I didnt realize you smoke!!!

[Truthseeker]

one vice doesn't justify another.

[jtork]

LOL shut up - you know I don't smoke

[aak1972]

one vice doesn't justify another.

So what do we not do?? Smoke, not eat fast food what? Where does the list begin and end?

[Cindy]

Are any of y'all living with COPD/E? I am, and it is not in any way funny to struggle to breathe.

[Cindy]

So what do we not do?? Smoke, not eat fast food what? Where does the list begin and end?

Don't do either if you want to live in good health.

[marthaolivia]

Smoking may not be a 'sin' but it is certainly a disgusting, smelly habit. Ewwww! JMO

[Neck]

I would like to know why tobacco is a sin? Is it b/c its unhealthy? If thats the case a lot of things could be added to the list. Sugar, sodium, and phenylalanine. The last one is found in diet drinks and is known to cause multiple health issues. Is it b/c of the addiction? I have read that nicotine has the same addictive qualities as herion. If thats the case we should still adhere to the preachers I heard years ago preaching against caffiene.


To answer your question.

Then

Over eating should be sin.

Taking every form of off the shelf or over the counter drug should be a sin.

Many others as well.

If SMoking is to be considered a sin because of the body being a temple..

[Truthseeker]

So what do we not do?? Smoke, not eat fast food what? Where does the list begin and end?



My point being smoking can't be justified because someone else drinks coffee or whatever.

I agree many think can be unhealthy, many things even in moderation are unhealthy. It's true a glass of wine a day is better then soda pop. I guess this were discernment and if one is really in step with God the spirit will let them know when they have crossed a line.

[jtork]

well one of the deadly sins is gluttony - the definition of gluttony is excessive eating - so there you go - overeating is a sin - not going to be very many pentecostals in heaven if that is the case is there! LOL

[Truthseeker]

Are any of y'all living with COPD/E? I am, and it is not in any way funny to struggle to breathe.

When you can't breathe nothing else matters!!

[Truthseeker]

well one of the deadly sins is gluttony - the definition of gluttony is excessive eating - so there you go - overeating is a sin - not going to be very many pentecostals in heaven if that is the case is there! LOL

It's our pet sin.

[MamaHen]

(if they can say that much without stuffing their mouth full of fat infested, carbohydrate filled food) :)

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my goodness, maybe I am just tired -- stayed up way too late last night on a cleaning & cooking spree -- but that just struck me as hilarious!

I would totally agree though.

[Cindy]

well one of the deadly sins is gluttony - the definition of gluttony is excessive eating - so there you go - overeating is a sin - not going to be very many pentecostals in heaven if that is the case is there! LOL

Over eating is not the only definition of gluttony. Nor is it confined to pentecostals.

[MrsMcD]

Any form of tobacco is disgusting!

[jtork]

Over eating is not the only definition of gluttony. Nor is it confined to pentecostals.

I did not say it was the only definition but is is a definition and you are too defensive - I know pentecostals are not the only ones that overeat - geeze - but this an "apostolic" website thus why I said that - lighten up. I am sorry you suffer from COPD - but do you have "poor little ole me" syndrome?

[Amos]

Smoking is a sin because it can not be done with agreement with everything else we
understand in the scripture, that is, it can not be done in faith.

Since it is an outside chemical, being burned, to be inhaled, to
accelerate its entry into our blood stream, we are adding an agent into
our bodies to alter the chemical contents within our blood. It is our own
will being asserted to create a pleasure response (through ingesting a
chemically active agent) that contradicts sustainable wellness of the
body. For a spirit-filled believer, the body is the tabernacle of God,
holy, and set apart. Motive is the issue that causes this activity to invite
sin to "sit outside the door", if not actually, inviting sin to have its
place within our life choices.

Viewed from a perspective within the natural realm:

1st witness:
The witness of our body's initial response
Our lungs reject the presence of this agent until we do it for so long
that our body's own rejection system ceases to react.

2nd witness:
The pain of withdrawal when one ceases smoking.
When the chemical levels drop, the pain and anxiousness is a plain
demonstration of "cause and effect". Paul said, “I will not be brought under the power of any.”

3rd witness:
The operation embraces a total physiological experience; hands, mouth and
chemistry. Two very powerful physical activities that quickly become
habitual, in the process of ingesting an addictive chemical. Crude example
for those of us with kids....just think about how hard it is to break a
child's nose picking habit once fully explored and enjoyed!)

Smoking is certainly in the mix of things that every individual will
decide for themselves. But for anyone who seeks the scriptures (led by the
Spirit) for wonderful counsels, smoking would be understood as a work of
the flesh; authored in the realm of carnal-mindedness.

Certainly over-eating can also become an issue conflicting with the Biblical principle of moderation, but food is necessary for survival; tobacco is not. Thus, the comparison falls short.

As has already been said, one vice doesn’t justify another. Pointing out that “Well, you guys overeat” doesn’t make this vile habit acceptable for Holy Ghost filled people.

[Cindy]

I did not say it was the only definition but is is a definition and you are too defensive - I know pentecostals are not the only ones that overeat - geeze - but this an "apostolic" website thus why I said that - lighten up. I am sorry you suffer from COPD - but do you have "poor little ole me" syndrome?

How am I too defensive? And we have some posters here that aren't apostolic, or drank, smoked, and overate before they were. And nope I don't, I was a stupid teenager that thought smoking was cool. Now that I am in my 50's I am living with the effects of that stupidity.

[jtork]

Smoking is a sin because it can not be done with agreement with everything else we
understand in the scripture, that is, it can not be done in faith.

Since it is an outside chemical, being burned, to be inhaled, to
accelerate its entry into our blood stream, we are adding an agent into
our bodies to alter the chemical contents within our blood. It is our own
will being asserted to create a pleasure response (through ingesting a
chemically active agent) that contradicts sustainable wellness of the
body. For a spirit-filled believer, the body is the tabernacle of God,
holy, and set apart. Motive is the issue that causes this activity to invite
sin to "sit outside the door", if not actually, inviting sin to have its
place within our life choices.

Viewed from a perspective within the natural realm:

1st witness:
The witness of our body's initial response
Our lungs reject the presence of this agent until we do it for so long
that our body's own rejection system ceases to react.

2nd witness:
The pain of withdrawal when one ceases smoking.
When the chemical levels drop, the pain and anxiousness is a plain
demonstration of "cause and effect". Paul said, “I will not be brought under the power of any.”

3rd witness:
The operation embraces a total physiological experience; hands, mouth and
chemistry. Two very powerful physical activities that quickly become
habitual, in the process of ingesting an addictive chemical. Crude example
for those of us with kids....just think about how hard it is to break a
child's nose picking habit once fully explored and enjoyed!)

Smoking is certainly in the mix of things that every individual will
decide for themselves. But for anyone who seeks the scriptures (led by the
Spirit) for wonderful counsels, smoking would be understood as a work of
the flesh; authored in the realm of carnal-mindedness.

Certainly over-eating can also become an issue conflicting with the Biblical principle of moderation, but food is necessary for survival; tobacco is not. Thus, the comparison falls short.

As has already been said, one vice doesn’t justify another. Pointing out that “Well, you guys overeat” doesn’t make this vile habit acceptable for Holy Ghost filled people.



The comparison doesn't fall short and I knew it would not be long before someone said something like that - will yes food is necessary for survival, not all foods are necessary and over-eating is not necessary for survival, caffeine is not necessary for survival, bad carbs are not necessary for survival, pork is not necessary for survival (BTW pork is one of the most unhealthiest things you can put into your body), eating fast food is not necessary for survival, eating fried foods is not necessary for survival. Have you ever seen someone who is addicted to caffeine trying to come off - it has a chemical effect also -people are under the "power" of caffeine; once again - gluttony is one of the 7 deadly sins and one of the definitions of gluttony is excessive eating.

[aak1972]

Smoking is a sin because it can not be done with agreement with everything else we
understand in the scripture, that is, it can not be done in faith.

Since it is an outside chemical, being burned, to be inhaled, to
accelerate its entry into our blood stream, we are adding an agent into
our bodies to alter the chemical contents within our blood. It is our own
will being asserted to create a pleasure response (through ingesting a
chemically active agent) that contradicts sustainable wellness of the
body. For a spirit-filled believer, the body is the tabernacle of God,
holy, and set apart. Motive is the issue that causes this activity to invite
sin to "sit outside the door", if not actually, inviting sin to have its
place within our life choices.

Viewed from a perspective within the natural realm:

1st witness:
The witness of our body's initial response
Our lungs reject the presence of this agent until we do it for so long
that our body's own rejection system ceases to react.

2nd witness:
The pain of withdrawal when one ceases smoking.
When the chemical levels drop, the pain and anxiousness is a plain
demonstration of "cause and effect". Paul said, “I will not be brought under the power of any.”

3rd witness:
The operation embraces a total physiological experience; hands, mouth and
chemistry. Two very powerful physical activities that quickly become
habitual, in the process of ingesting an addictive chemical. Crude example
for those of us with kids....just think about how hard it is to break a
child's nose picking habit once fully explored and enjoyed!)

Smoking is certainly in the mix of things that every individual will
decide for themselves. But for anyone who seeks the scriptures (led by the
Spirit) for wonderful counsels, smoking would be understood as a work of
the flesh; authored in the realm of carnal-mindedness.

Certainly over-eating can also become an issue conflicting with the Biblical principle of moderation, but food is necessary for survival; tobacco is not. Thus, the comparison falls short.

As has already been said, one vice doesn’t justify another. Pointing out that “Well, you guys overeat” doesn’t make this vile habit acceptable for Holy Ghost filled people.

I cant agree that nicotine is the only thing we can ingest that our body initially rejects. However I do agree with what you mentioned Paul said. I believe if your addicted to anything its a sin. To me its the addiction more than the product.

[Truthseeker]

The comparison doesn't fall short and I knew it would not be long before someone said something like that - will yes food is necessary for survival, not all foods are necessary and over-eating is not necessary for survival, caffeine is not necessary for survival, bad carbs are not necessary for survival, pork is not necessary for survival (BTW pork is one of the most unhealthiest things you can put into your body), eating fast food is not necessary for survival, eating fried foods is not necessary for survival. Have you ever seen someone who is addicted to caffeine trying to come off - it has a chemical effect also -people are under the "power" of caffeine; once again - gluttony is one of the 7 deadly sins and one of the definitions of gluttony is excessive eating.

I think there's some deliverence ministers that would testify there's a spirit behind caffeine addiction.

[Amos]

You are using one of the weakest arguments there is--"Well it's no worse than what you do."

The witness of the Holy Gost among godly people has overwhelmingly spoken against smoking.

[Amos]

I cant agree that nicotine is the only thing we can ingest that our body initially rejects. However I do agree with what you mentioned Paul said. I believe if your addicted to anything its a sin. To me its the addiction more than the product.


Did I say nicotine was the only thing the body rejects?

[meBNme]

Caffiene is not neccesary for survival....... It is necesary for REvival.

[aak1972]

Did I say nicotine was the only thing the body rejects?

No not at all. But my point is other things are not looked upon like smoking is. I believe its a sin for the addictive and the health issues. I just wonder why other things that have the same addictive and unhealthy nature are not so harshley looked upon.

[jtork]

How am I too defensive? And we have some posters here that aren't apostolic, or drank, smoked, and overate before they were. And nope I don't, I was a stupid teenager that thought smoking was cool. Now that I am in my 50's I am living with the effects of that stupidity.

Well - if they drank overate, etc before they were then I hope they are doing something about it now. There are things you can do to help you live a better life with COPD - plenty of Vitamin C helps; Omega 3 supplements, magnesium; flaxsee and walnuts; kidney beans, soybeans; eat salmon, haibut or tuna at least 3 times a week. Studies have been done that proves this is just a few of the things you can do if you suffer from COPD to help you live a better life.

[jtork]

I think there's some deliverence ministers that would testify there's a spirit behind caffeine addiction.

There is a spirit behind any type of addiction.

[Cindy]

Well - if they drank overate, etc before they were then I hope they are doing something about it now. There are things you can do to help you live a better life with COPD - plenty of Vitamin C helps; Omega 3 supplements, magnesium; flaxsee and walnuts; kidney beans, soybeans; eat salmon, haibut or tuna at least 3 times a week. Studies have been done that proves this is just a few of the things you can do if you suffer from COPD to help you live a better life.

Yes, thank you I know of a few. I love tuna.

[meBNme]

There is a spirit behind any type of addiction.

Even little white powdered dounuts????????

[Neck]

Smoking is a sin because it can not be done with agreement with everything else we
understand in the scripture, that is, it can not be done in faith.

Since it is an outside chemical, being burned, to be inhaled, to
accelerate its entry into our blood stream, we are adding an agent into
our bodies to alter the chemical contents within our blood. It is our own
will being asserted to create a pleasure response (through ingesting a
chemically active agent) that contradicts sustainable wellness of the
body. For a spirit-filled believer, the body is the tabernacle of God,
holy, and set apart. Motive is the issue that causes this activity to invite
sin to "sit outside the door", if not actually, inviting sin to have its
place within our life choices.

Viewed from a perspective within the natural realm:

1st witness:
The witness of our body's initial response
Our lungs reject the presence of this agent until we do it for so long
that our body's own rejection system ceases to react.

2nd witness:
The pain of withdrawal when one ceases smoking.
When the chemical levels drop, the pain and anxiousness is a plain
demonstration of "cause and effect". Paul said, “I will not be brought under the power of any.”

3rd witness:
The operation embraces a total physiological experience; hands, mouth and
chemistry. Two very powerful physical activities that quickly become
habitual, in the process of ingesting an addictive chemical. Crude example
for those of us with kids....just think about how hard it is to break a
child's nose picking habit once fully explored and enjoyed!)

Smoking is certainly in the mix of things that every individual will
decide for themselves. But for anyone who seeks the scriptures (led by the
Spirit) for wonderful counsels, smoking would be understood as a work of
the flesh; authored in the realm of carnal-mindedness.

Certainly over-eating can also become an issue conflicting with the Biblical principle of moderation, but food is necessary for survival; tobacco is not. Thus, the comparison falls short.

As has already been said, one vice doesn’t justify another. Pointing out that “Well, you guys overeat” doesn’t make this vile habit acceptable for Holy Ghost filled people.


I don't smoke but to follow this you would have to eat only organic food amd drink no soda, coffee or tea.

[Cindy]

No not at all. But my point is other things are not looked upon like smoking is. I believe its a sin for the addictive and the health issues. I just wonder why other things that have the same addictive and unhealthy nature are not so harshley looked upon.

I know, right. Obesity is in our faces too, so to speak.

[Cindy]

Even little white powdered dounuts????????

Oh no, only the chocolate ones.:christmoose

[meBNme]

Oh no, only the chocolate ones.:christmoose

Phew!!!!!!! I was thinkin we might have to have an exorsism here or something!

[aak1972]

I don't smoke but to follow this you would have to eat only organic food amd drink no soda, coffee or tea.

Yes yes someone sees my point!!!!!!!

[jtork]

You are using one of the weakest arguments there is--"Well it's no worse than what you do."

The witness of the Holy Gost among godly people has overwhelmingly spoken against smoking.

Who is using the argument "well it's no worse than what you do" - guess I missed that - I don't drink or smoke nor do I overeat - every now and then I get a drink with caffeine :) - but I am not addicted that is for sure.

"The witness of the Holy Ghost amony godly people has overwhelmingly spoken against smoking.?????? There are plenty that would say the same about my point too.

Do you agree that the bible says gluttony is a sin?

[meBNme]

Here's a querstiun fer ya.


If cigarettes are OK..... how bout those "left handed" cigarettes?
Are they OK too?

[jtork]

Yes, thank you I know of a few. I love tuna.

I can get you more if you would like :) - I have HUGE book that gives great detail about the healthiest foods; how to cook them and how they help the body.

[Cindy]

Here's a querstiun fer ya.


If cigarettes are OK..... how bout those "left handed" cigarettes?
Are they OK too?

:bubble

[jtork]

Even little white powdered dounuts????????

LOL - I tried to hide my addiction to them once but I got caught - did not wipe the powder from the corner of my lips well enough:jolly

[Cindy]

I can get you more if you would like :) - I have HUGE book that gives great detail about the healthiest foods; how to cook them and how they help the body.

Thank you, there is a lot of help in the COPD community.

[aak1972]

Here's a querstiun fer ya.


If cigarettes are OK..... how bout those "left handed" cigarettes?
Are they OK too?

No b/c they give you the munchies for all the "junk food"!! LOL

[meBNme]

:bubble

Little white powdered dounuts and left handed cigarettes.........

Duuuuuude....... we're like........ gonna rock ouuuuut to some gospel muuuusic maaaan!

Suweeeeeeet!

[jtork]

THANKS A LOT AAK - thanks to you I have accomplished NOTHING at work today! and it is about lunch time here and let me say I am having Organic Black Bean Vegetable soup today; I had a banana, apple and orange for breakfast and have a tangerine and possibly another orange for snack later on today :)

[aak1972]

Little white powdered dounuts and left handed cigarettes.........

Duuuuuude....... we're like........ gonna rock ouuuuut to some gospel muuuusic maaaan!

Suweeeeeeet!

I get the munchies for doritoes and chedder cheese when I smoke!! LOl

[aak1972]

THANKS A LOT AAK - thanks to you I have accomplished NOTHING at work today! and it is about lunch time here and let me say I am having Organic Black Bean Vegetable soup today; I had a banana, apple and orange for breakfast and have a tangerine and possibly another orange for snack later on today :)

Didnt realize you are such a health nut!

[jtork]

Didnt realize you are such a health nut!

I haven't always been but have gradually changed in the past few years - it just makes you feel so much better. Hubby is REALLY a health nut - even more so that me! I tend to fall of the wagon some though when I come home for a visit - LOL

[Ferd]

It simply amazes me that one can find a valid excuse for a sinful behavior by suggesting that some other behavior is just as sinful.

Smoking damages a body and is very addictive and unless one smokes in a vacuum sealed chamber, smoking hurts those around you.

If you want to have a discussion about over eating, then fine. We have done that many times. Its a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evil of pork, great, we have done that too and it is a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evils of caffeine great! We have discussed that more than once too....


But PLEASE people, none of those things is an excuse for lighting up and ingesting tobacco into your lungs. Smoking damages the body. period. end of discussion. it damages the body very clearly, it kills people, it harms those around the smoker, and it has an addictive nature that keeps you coming back for more.


One cannot smoke in moderation and not damage your body. One cannot smoke on occasion for recreation and not damage your body.

No amount of bacon or fried chicken or chicken fried in bacon grease undoes the simple fact that smoking DAMAGES the body!

Doing willfull damage to the Temple of God is a SIN.

If you are attempting to justify smoking using ANY argument at all, you are attempting to justify sin. period.



Some complain that AFF has become "Post-Apostolic". This thread makes me wonder if we have "Apostolics" that have really become Post-Christian.

[jtork]

I am not justifying anything - I DON'T SMOKE!! I DON'T DRINK!! I DON'T OVEREAT!! No one has said bacon, fried chicken etc undoes the fact that smoking DAMAGES the body - I am say it ALL DAMAGES THE BODY and if you do not think one is just as damaging as the other then you are not well-educated in that area.

[aak1972]

It simply amazes me that one can find a valid excuse for a sinful behavior by suggesting that some other behavior is just as sinful.

Smoking damages a body and is very addictive and unless one smokes in a vacuum sealed chamber, smoking hurts those around you.

If you want to have a discussion about over eating, then fine. We have done that many times. Its a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evil of pork, great, we have done that too and it is a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evils of caffeine great! We have discussed that more than once too....


But PLEASE people, none of those things is an excuse for lighting up and ingesting tobacco into your lungs. Smoking damages the body. period. end of discussion. it damages the body very clearly, it kills people, it harms those around the smoker, and it has an addictive nature that keeps you coming back for more.


One cannot smoke in moderation and not damage your body. One cannot smoke on occasion for recreation and not damage your body.

No amount of bacon or fried chicken or chicken fried in bacon grease undoes the simple fact that smoking DAMAGES the body!

Doing willfull damage to the Temple of God is a SIN.

If you are attempting to justify smoking using ANY argument at all, you are attempting to justify sin. period.



Some complain that AFF has become "Post-Apostolic". This thread makes me wonder if we have "Apostolics" that have really become Post-Christian.

I am not trying to justify smoking! I dont smoke! I just wanna know why the smokers are picked on when all the things you mention are also doing willfull damage to the body.

[Neck]

Should we put warning stickers on our cars?

Since one out of every 7 cars on the road have somone inebriated in some way.

Either elderly, over tired, drunk, on drugs, car not in driving safety condition etc..

Some willfully smoke knowing it will kill them.

There are 10's of Thousands each year that die behind the wheel of their cars.

Knowing that when they got behind the wheel someone out there would be driving inebriated.

[Neck]

It simply amazes me that one can find a valid excuse for a sinful behavior by suggesting that some other behavior is just as sinful.

Smoking damages a body and is very addictive and unless one smokes in a vacuum sealed chamber, smoking hurts those around you.

If you want to have a discussion about over eating, then fine. We have done that many times. Its a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evil of pork, great, we have done that too and it is a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evils of caffeine great! We have discussed that more than once too....


But PLEASE people, none of those things is an excuse for lighting up and ingesting tobacco into your lungs. Smoking damages the body. period. end of discussion. it damages the body very clearly, it kills people, it harms those around the smoker, and it has an addictive nature that keeps you coming back for more.


One cannot smoke in moderation and not damage your body. One cannot smoke on occasion for recreation and not damage your body.

No amount of bacon or fried chicken or chicken fried in bacon grease undoes the simple fact that smoking DAMAGES the body!

Doing willfull damage to the Temple of God is a SIN.

If you are attempting to justify smoking using ANY argument at all, you are attempting to justify sin. period.



Some complain that AFF has become "Post-Apostolic". This thread makes me wonder if we have "Apostolics" that have really become Post-Christian.


It's not a matter of aceepting smoking. It is a matter of logic and why some things are singled out and others are not touched because they are accepted...

[aak1972]

Should we put warning stickers on our cars?

Since one out of every 7 cars on the road have somone inebriated in some way.

Either elderly, over tired, drunk, on drugs, car not in driving safety condition etc..

Some willfully smoke knowing it will kill them.

There are 10's of Thousands each year that die behind the wheel of their cars.

Knowing that when they got behind the wheel someone out there would be driving inebriated.

You have to die of something!

[Neck]

I am not justifying anything - I DON'T SMOKE!! I DON'T DRINK!! I DON'T OVEREAT!! No one has said bacon, fried chicken etc undoes the fact that smoking DAMAGES the body - I am say it ALL DAMAGES THE BODY and if you do not think one is just as damaging as the other then you are not well-educated in that area.


Hey, I love Fried Chicken and Bacon...

So does most of the Pentecostals.

It shows.....

I just eat it in moderation, (Moderation)...

There we go again...

[Neck]

You have to die of something!

I know so I want to sleep in a hyper chamber.

So the dust in my house or the germs in my house don't take me out...

[Neck]

The stress of living up to such high standards will most likely kill most Pentecostals.

Long before anything else.

[jtork]

Hey, I love Fried Chicken and Bacon...

So does most of the Pentecostals.

It shows.....

I just eat it in moderation, (Moderation)...

There we go again...


Moderation can be ok - I am sure moderation varies from person to person :) - although I stay away from pork period - it's just gross to me :vomit

[jtork]

It's not a matter of aceepting smoking. It is a matter of logic and why some things are singled out and others are not touched because they are accepted...

YAAAYYYYYY!!!!! Someone who gets it!!!

[Neck]

Moderation can be ok - I am sure moderation varies from person to person :) - although I stay away from pork period - it's just gross to me :vomita

I have ordered some special glazed ham for Christmas eve dinner.

There is this awesome store near us.

It is the best tasting on the planet...

We all have our likes....

My wife will not touch any seafood...

[edjen01]

how is calling something like "smoking" wrong....or sinful...picking on it?

I believe we can become way to focused on keeping this body...this body will not see heaven....this body will not last forever and is made to fall apart. This does not mean we are to speed this process...but rather that no matter what we do...its still going to happen.

[jtork]

a

I have ordered some special glazed ham for Christmas eve dinner.

There is this awesome store near us.

It is the best tasting on the planet...

We all have our likes....

My wife will not touch any seafood...



Yeah - I wont eat seafood either - especially the bottom feeders :vomit

[Bro-Larry]

Moderation can be ok - I am sure moderation varies from person to person :) - although I stay away from pork period - it's just gross to me :vomit

Even by eating all that good stuff, it is still very important to monitor your ph balance.

ph must be maintained in the rage of 7.35 to 7.45 in order to maintain optimum health.

ph balance is very easy and inexpensive to monitor, just get some ph paper from any drugstore and follow the instructions.

Keeping a proper ph balance is , in my opinion, the single most important you can do to keep yourself healthy.

Blessings Bro-larry

[Neck]

how is calling something like "smoking" wrong....or sinful...picking on it?

I believe we can become way to focused on keeping this body...this body will not see heaven....this body will not last forever and is made to fall apart. This does not mean we are to speed this process...but rather that no matter what we do...its still going to happen.

I think the debt that most Christians are in will cause just as much speed up as a other things mentioned.

Get out of debt and maybe you will live longer..

[jtork]

Even by eating all that good stuff, it is still very important to monitor your ph balance.

ph must be maintained in the rage of 7.35 to 7.45 in order to maintain optimum health.

ph balance is very easy and inexpensive to monitor, just get some ph paper from any drugstore and follow the instructions.

Keeping a proper ph balance is , in my opinion, the single most important you can do to keep yourself healthy.

Blessings Bro-larry

I actually have some of those :)

[Ferd]

I am not trying to justify smoking! I dont smoke! I just wanna know why the smokers are picked on when all the things you mention are also doing willfull damage to the body.

right. your arent trying to justify smoking.


and its a balmy day here in Dallas.


Smokers arent being picked on. they are struggling with sin. And if they dont find victory, thier struggle will likely kill them.

[Baron1710]

It simply amazes me that one can find a valid excuse for a sinful behavior by suggesting that some other behavior is just as sinful.

Smoking damages a body and is very addictive and unless one smokes in a vacuum sealed chamber, smoking hurts those around you.

If you want to have a discussion about over eating, then fine. We have done that many times. Its a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evil of pork, great, we have done that too and it is a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evils of caffeine great! We have discussed that more than once too....


But PLEASE people, none of those things is an excuse for lighting up and ingesting tobacco into your lungs. Smoking damages the body. period. end of discussion. it damages the body very clearly, it kills people, it harms those around the smoker, and it has an addictive nature that keeps you coming back for more.


One cannot smoke in moderation and not damage your body. One cannot smoke on occasion for recreation and not damage your body.

No amount of bacon or fried chicken or chicken fried in bacon grease undoes the simple fact that smoking DAMAGES the body!

Doing willfull damage to the Temple of God is a SIN.

If you are attempting to justify smoking using ANY argument at all, you are attempting to justify sin. period.



Some complain that AFF has become "Post-Apostolic". This thread makes me wonder if we have "Apostolics" that have really become Post-Christian.


Then Cigars are OK?

[aak1972]

right. your arent trying to justify smoking.


and its a balmy day here in Dallas.


Smokers arent being picked on. they are struggling with sin. And if they dont find victory, thier struggle will likely kill them.

OK one more time I am not tryin to justify smoking!!! I dont have to I dont smoke!!! Just wanna know the difference between smoking and drinking 12 cokes a day.

[Ferd]

It's not a matter of aceepting smoking. It is a matter of logic and why some things are singled out and others are not touched because they are accepted...

No its a matter of justyifing sin because you see someone else sinning.

like I said, if you want to talk about glutony fine we have done that before and its a worthy discussion.

but dont sit here and give a pass to smoking (which will kill you) because some preacher somewhere ate too much fried chicken.



Dont tell a poor smoker that they are being picked on when in fact, they are killing themselves and harming those they smoke around.

[rgcraig]

right. your arent trying to justify smoking.


and its a balmy day here in Dallas.


Smokers arent being picked on. they are struggling with sin. And if they dont find victory, thier struggle will likely kill them.

I understand what he's saying...........why aren't we struggling with overeating as a sin? Why isn't it preached as a sin?

[Baron1710]

I understand what he's saying...........why aren't we struggling with overeating as a sin? Why isn't it preached as a sin?

Because we like to do it so very often.

[Ferd]

OK one more time I am not tryin to justify smoking!!! I dont have to I dont smoke!!! Just wanna know the difference between smoking and drinking 12 cokes a day.

if you need someone to tell you the difference, then you have far greater issues my friend. (and dont confuse that staement with me justifying drinking a dozen cokes either)

[Ferd]

I understand what he's saying...........why aren't we struggling with overeating as a sin? Why isn't it preached as a sin?



Renda the vast majority of "christians" now believe that preaching against anything is just being mean and controling.

in fact you look at the posts around here and you will fine more people who think we shouldnt tell folk about sin anyway.

[Neck]

No its a matter of justyifing sin because you see someone else sinning.

like I said, if you want to talk about glutony fine we have done that before and its a worthy discussion.

but dont sit here and give a pass to smoking (which will kill you) because some preacher somewhere ate too much fried chicken.



Dont tell a poor smoker that they are being picked on when in fact, they are killing themselves and harming those they smoke around.

I disagree with smoking and hate it when I smell it in a public place.

Just come up with a better argument than the one most Christians give...

[aak1972]

if you need someone to tell you the difference, then you have far greater issues my friend. (and dont confuse that staement with me justifying drinking a dozen cokes either)

Well I will take it that you do not have the ability to expain to me the difference!!! Is the health issues or the addictive issues?? Please tell me! I think it is a sin to smoke! I just wanna know why the other things mentioned that are detrimental to your health not preached as a sin. When the last time you heard someone preach against phenylalanine?

[Baron1710]

Renda the vast majority of "christians" now believe that preaching against anything is just being mean and controling.

in fact you look at the posts around here and you will fine more people who think we shouldnt tell folk about sin anyway.

So you don't want that box of fine cuban cigars I sent you for the gift exchange?

[Michael Phelps]

Renda the vast majority of "christians" now believe that preaching against anything is just being mean and controling.

in fact you look at the posts around here and you will fine more people who think we shouldnt tell folk about sin anyway.

Oh brother, not you too.

I'm tired of the old "if anyone questions a teaching, they must not believe in preaching against ANY sin" refrain.

I doubt you'll find one person on this forum who condones smoking, but some of the same people who put smokers in hell laugh about Apostolics over eating.

Ferd, you have to acknowledge that we've made some issues our "hot buttons" throughout the years, but some other equally dangerous issues we've ignored, and even laughed about.

[Neck]

Even by eating all that good stuff, it is still very important to monitor your ph balance.

ph must be maintained in the rage of 7.35 to 7.45 in order to maintain optimum health.

ph balance is very easy and inexpensive to monitor, just get some ph paper from any drugstore and follow the instructions.

Keeping a proper ph balance is , in my opinion, the single most important you can do to keep yourself healthy.

Blessings Bro-larry

To do that we need to stay away from Soda.

It is thought that we should only drink warm water.

So our stomach does not have to pump blood into our stomach to warm the cold soda.

That is the reason so many experience stomach cramps while eating.

I would say warm water 3o minutes after eating is the best way to go...

[aak1972]

Oh brother, not you too.

I'm tired of the old "if anyone questions a teaching, they must not believe in preaching against ANY sin" refrain.

I doubt you'll find one person on this forum who condones smoking, but some of the same people who put smokers in hell laugh about Apostolics over eating.

Ferd, you have to acknowledge that we've made some issues our "hot buttons" throughout the years, but some other equally dangerous issues we've ignored, and even laughed about.

Right about the questioning!!!!

[Amos]

It simply amazes me that one can find a valid excuse for a sinful behavior by suggesting that some other behavior is just as sinful.

Smoking damages a body and is very addictive and unless one smokes in a vacuum sealed chamber, smoking hurts those around you.

If you want to have a discussion about over eating, then fine. We have done that many times. Its a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evil of pork, great, we have done that too and it is a worthy discussion.

You want to talk about the evils of caffeine great! We have discussed that more than once too....


But PLEASE people, none of those things is an excuse for lighting up and ingesting tobacco into your lungs. Smoking damages the body. period. end of discussion. it damages the body very clearly, it kills people, it harms those around the smoker, and it has an addictive nature that keeps you coming back for more.


One cannot smoke in moderation and not damage your body. One cannot smoke on occasion for recreation and not damage your body.

No amount of bacon or fried chicken or chicken fried in bacon grease undoes the simple fact that smoking DAMAGES the body!

Doing willfull damage to the Temple of God is a SIN.

If you are attempting to justify smoking using ANY argument at all, you are attempting to justify sin. period.



Some complain that AFF has become "Post-Apostolic". This thread makes me wonder if we have "Apostolics" that have really become Post-Christian.


I really haven't posted much on AFF for a while, until the past few days.

I have noticed that the prevailing midset here has definitely become what I would describe as post-Apostolic.

The sheer hostility that meets anything resembling what would be considered mainstream conservative Apostolic thought is mind boggling.

It's like there are these little gangs of roving trolls waiting for an opportunity to dog pile anyone who suggests that Acts 2:38 is essential, or that holiness standards are a good idea.

Things really, really have changed here, and this thread is yet another example.

[Cindy]

I question some people's reasoning but not the issues themselves.

[Baron1710]

Can we wait until after Christmas to preach against eating...well just about everything?

[Michael Phelps]

I really haven't posted much on AFF for a while, until the past few days.

I have noticed that the prevailing midset here has definitely become what I would describe as post-Apostolic.

The sheer hostility that meets anything resembling what would be considered mainstream conservative Apostolic thought is mind boggling.

It's like there are these little gangs of roving trolls waiting for an opportunity to dog pile anyone who suggests that Acts 2:38 is essential, or that holiness standards are a good idea.

Things really, really have changed here, and this thread is yet another example.

What we question is inconsistency, Amos.

But, in the words of an immortal former FCF/NFCF poster, "Consistency is over rated"

[Neck]

"Oh, It's so sad Pastor or Brother So and So just died suddenly"!

"How old was he"?

"He was 50"!

"How did he die"?

"I Heard it was his heart"!

"Did he know he had risk"?

"I am not sure, He was 350lbs and 5' 8" tall".

"His poor wife and kids"!

It happens all the time...

[rgcraig]

Amos,

What has changed in this thread?

No one is saying smoking is okay. They are questioning why we don't make other things equally taboo that are just as bad for us.

I think the title of the thread is throwing you guys off.

[Timmy]

:popcorn2


No, wait. Make that:

http://planetsmilies.net/smoking-smiley-5437.gif

[Amos]

What we question is consistency, Amos.

But, in the words of an immortal former FCF/NFCF poster, "Consistency is over rated"

Whoever used to say that probably didn't have sense enough to pour water out of a boot with the directions on the heel. :)

The trouble, however, with the consistency argument is that everybody thinks they can define it arbitrarily, and that it can basically be utilized to explain away anything and everything.

Total consistency in this mortal coil is a myth.

It doesn't exist.

[Baron1710]

:popcorn2


No, wait. Make that:

http://planetsmilies.net/smoking-smiley-5437.gif

Hey this is a no smoking room. You tryin to kill me with your second-hand smoke?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Tex Williams was annoyed by smokers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWXbVsMkz1U

[Cindy]

I really haven't posted much on AFF for a while, until the past few days.

I have noticed that the prevailing midset here has definitely become what I would describe as post-Apostolic.

The sheer hostility that meets anything resembling what would be considered mainstream conservative Apostolic thought is mind boggling.

It's like there are these little gangs of roving trolls waiting for an opportunity to dog pile anyone who suggests that Acts 2:38 is essential, or that holiness standards are a good idea.

Things really, really have changed here, and this thread is yet another example.

To me it all comes down to "I" am right. Selfish, right fighting. If someone tells us one thing is wrong, some will come up with 10 things that are more wrong. And apparently our preachers have to preach on every sin every week. And Lord help them if they leave one out!

[StMark]

Most people that believe smoking is okay also believe that Drinking and gambling are fine too. And since the 10 commandments are in the OT, we might as well throw them away while we're at it.


As if we can stop eating food to live! comparing the above to eating is ridiculous. They put chemicals in our water suppply too so if you folks want to be consistant, stop drinking from the tap. We can't control the pestisides and chemicals in the food. we can pray over the food and trust God.

The extent people will go to to drink and smoke is astounding

[KWSS1976]

I think what is being said here is the messeges being preached on smoking and drinking and not being preached on the other unhealthy things in the world I have heard plenty testify how jesus saved them from drinking and smoking but never heard anyone testify about being delivered from KFC,POYPES OR CHURCHES CHICKEN I myself personally think this should not be preached since it is not biblical about smoking and drinking but you should use common since.

[Neck]

I really haven't posted much on AFF for a while, until the past few days.

I have noticed that the prevailing midset here has definitely become what I would describe as post-Apostolic.

The sheer hostility that meets anything resembling what would be considered mainstream conservative Apostolic thought is mind boggling.

It's like there are these little gangs of roving trolls waiting for an opportunity to dog pile anyone who suggests that Acts 2:38 is essential, or that holiness standards are a good idea.

Things really, really have changed here, and this thread is yet another example.

The beginnings of your salvation do secure your eternal security.

We do not get to heaven nor try and save a modern generation on "good ideas".

How many of these good ideas are legislated without any good idea or thought....

Show me how you input into these "Apostolic great adventure hopes called, Standards".... any of the fruits of the spirit?

To me they cause bad spirits not fruit...

[Michael Phelps]

Whoever used to say that probably didn't have sense enough to pour water out of a boot with the directions on the heel. :)

The trouble, however, with the consistency argument is that everybody thinks they can define it arbitrarily, and that it can basically be utilized to explain away anything and everything.

Total consistency in this mortal coil is a myth.

It doesn't exist.

You might be surprised if I told you who it was.

However, I go back to my original premise. I haven't seen one person on this thread who said, "Oh, smoking is a great thing, and should not be preached against!"

What I have seen is, "How come we make smoking a mortal sin, but put our stamp of approval on gluttony?"

The Bible speaks often about gluttony, and in one case connects the "drunkard and the glutton" in the same category.

But, how many sermons have you heard at General Conference about gluttony? How many Bible studies in your local assembly have you taught about gluttony?

That's where my frustration lies.

And, I get even more frustrated when these questions are asked, and someone says "They don't believe in anything any more, it's a non-Apostolic forum".

[Amos]

I think what is being said here is the messeges being preached on smoking and drinking and not being preached on the other unhealthy things in the world I have heard plenty testify how jesus saved them from drinking and smoking but never heard anyone testify about being delivered from KFC,POYPES OR CHURCHES CHICKEN I myself personally think this should not be preached since it is not biblical about smoking and drinking but you should use common since.

Exhibit A.

[StMark]

I think what is being said here is the messeges being preached on smoking and drinking and not being preached on the other unhealthy things in the world I have heard plenty testify how jesus saved them from drinking and smoking but never heard anyone testify about being delivered from KFC,POYPES OR CHURCHES CHICKEN I myself personally think this should not be preached since it is not biblical about smoking and drinking but you should use common since.


Many of our forefathers at that food and never had obesity or the health problems we are having.

It's NOT the food! It's our idleness. They ate that food but they worked it off. We eat the same food and sit on our butts and get fatter and fatter.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Smoking is a hard habit to break.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3_JV0xrklM

[Michael Phelps]

Most people that believe smoking is okay also believe that Drinking and gambling are fine too. And since the 10 commandments are in the OT, we might as well throw them away while we're at it.


As if we can stop eating food to live! comparing the above to eating is ridiculous. They put chemicals in our water suppply too so if you folks want to be consistant, stop drinking from the tap. We can't control the pestisides and chemicals in the food. we can pray over the food and trust God.

The extent people will go to to drink and smoke is astounding

Mark, do you understand that people can eat enough to live without over eating?

Do you understand that Solomon likened the glutton to a drunkard?

So, its not so ridiculous to compare overating to drunkenness.

[KWSS1976]

I don't have anything against gambling but I don't do it because I know the casinos are in it to make money not give it away and I work too hard for my money to go and take a chance on loosing it....if I went to a baptist church or anyother chuch I would still fill the sameway about it..I do wish I owned a casino though LOL....

[Amos]

You might be surprised if I told you who it was.

However, I go back to my original premise. I haven't seen one person on this thread who said, "Oh, smoking is a great thing, and should not be preached against!"

What I have seen is, "How come we make smoking a mortal sin, but put our stamp of approval on gluttony?"

The Bible speaks often about gluttony, and in one case connects the "drunkard and the glutton" in the same category.

But, how many sermons have you heard at General Conference about gluttony? How many Bible studies in your local assembly have you taught about gluttony?

That's where my frustration lies.

And, I get even more frustrated when these questions are asked, and someone says "They don't believe in anything any more, it's a non-Apostolic forum".


Gluttony is not tantamount to occasional overeating and/or being overweight.

In antiquity gluttony referred to raucous overeating in an orgy-like fashion that often resulted in one deliberately vomiting with the intent of eating more. A Roman domicilium actually had a special room in which guests could vomit in order to feast some more. They called it a vomitorium.

[jtork]

Most people that believe smoking is okay also believe that Drinking and gambling are fine too. And since the 10 commandments are in the OT, we might as well throw them away while we're at it.


As if we can stop eating food to live! comparing the above to eating is ridiculous. They put chemicals in our water suppply too so if you folks want to be consistant, stop drinking from the tap. We can't control the pestisides and chemicals in the food. we can pray over the food and trust God.

The extent people will go to to drink and smoke is astounding


No One said anyone should stop eating food - my point is OVER-EATING but I guess all you read was "eating". BTW - I have a water distiller and that is the water I drink :) and I buy organic when available so you can control it to some extent. People who think it is ridiculous are the guilty ones :)

[StMark]

Mark, do you understand that people can eat enough to live without over eating?

Do you understand that Solomon likened the glutton to a drunkard?

So, its not so ridiculous to compare overating to drunkenness.


That fact that eating food is a survival issue, what they eat and how much the amount they eat is between them and their God.

Again, Idleness, not working that food off is what makes people fat and unhealthy.

To make the excuse that drinking thunderbird and vodka is fine because someone had too many servings of mash potatos is silly

[Bro-Larry]

Pork and sodas are probably far worse for you than smoking.

[Neck]

I think what is being said here is the messeges being preached on smoking and drinking and not being preached on the other unhealthy things in the world I have heard plenty testify how jesus saved them from drinking and smoking but never heard anyone testify about being delivered from KFC,POYPES OR CHURCHES CHICKEN I myself personally think this should not be preached since it is not biblical about smoking and drinking but you should use common since.

I one time got so depressed.

I stopped off at a KFC.

Grabbed a 10 piece bucket, mashed potatoes

10 rolls and then grabbed a 2 liter bottle of Mountain Dew.

i drove down to Grant Park in South Milwaukee.

I ate the entire bucket and everything else in 30 minutes.

I drank the entire bottle of mountain dew.

I felt like a junky on crack..

Then my wife calls me and asked me.

Did you have a big lunch?

I then stated not big, (See it was a very large lunch).

She told me I made the kids there favorite...

No!!!!!!!!

I just ate a Chicken coupe full of chickens.....

Tell me what is the difference between that and any other comfort food or drug????

I am glad that I have lost all the weight...

I still fight the urges every day....

[Cindy]

You might be surprised if I told you who it was.

However, I go back to my original premise. I haven't seen one person on this thread who said, "Oh, smoking is a great thing, and should not be preached against!"

What I have seen is, "How come we make smoking a mortal sin, but put our stamp of approval on gluttony?"

The Bible speaks often about gluttony, and in one case connects the "drunkard and the glutton" in the same category.

But, how many sermons have you heard at General Conference about gluttony? How many Bible studies in your local assembly have you taught about gluttony?

That's where my frustration lies.

And, I get even more frustrated when these questions are asked, and someone says "They don't believe in anything any more, it's a non-Apostolic forum".

It's just a friendly discussion Michael! It's healthy! I don't overeat, but I do not always eat healthy. But I can say as a long time smoker, you cannot smoke and not harm your body, and other people around you. People that overeat don't usually harm others. Unless they allow their families to do the same. Should preachers preach against it? Yes, but seriously how many people do you think want to hear it preached against? And if a preacher isn't a living example of it, it's hard for him/her to preach it. I do understand the argument of smoking, drinking, vs gluttony.

P. S. I was anorexic but the Lord HEALED me!

[Michael Phelps]

Gluttony is not tantamount to occasional overeating and/or being overweight.

In antiquity gluttony referred to raucous overeating in an orgy-like fashion that often resulted in one deliberately vomiting with the intent of eating more. A Roman domicilium actually had a special room in which guests could vomit in order to feast some more. They called it a vomitorium.

I agree with you, but when they accused Jesus of being a glutton, that's not the definition. The definition of gluttony in the NT is "voracious appetites".

And, I'm not saying someone is going to hell for being over weight, God knows, I'd be the first one on the train to Hades, but do you understand my point?

If we preach against smoking and make it a sin worthy of hell fire and brimstone, we also should put the same emphasis on anything that destroys our bodies prematurely.

Again, I am NOT an advocate of smoking, there is absolutely NO justification for smoking, either in the spiritual or the natural, but let's be consistent.

Ok, that's all I'll say about that!

[rgcraig]

You might be surprised if I told you who it was.

However, I go back to my original premise. I haven't seen one person on this thread who said, "Oh, smoking is a great thing, and should not be preached against!"

What I have seen is, "How come we make smoking a mortal sin, but put our stamp of approval on gluttony?"

The Bible speaks often about gluttony, and in one case connects the "drunkard and the glutton" in the same category.

But, how many sermons have you heard at General Conference about gluttony? How many Bible studies in your local assembly have you taught about gluttony?

That's where my frustration lies.

And, I get even more frustrated when these questions are asked, and someone says "They don't believe in anything any more, it's a non-Apostolic forum".

Lord, me too!

The accusation that we lump all preachers in the same bucket when discussing one issue, BUT it's okay to throw the whole forum into the cesspool of non-Apostolic posters category - - - gets old.

[Cindy]

I one time got so depressed.

I stopped off at a KFC.

Grabbed a 10 piece bucket, mashed potatoes

10 rolls and then grabbed a 2 liter bottle of Mountain Dew.

i drove down to Grant Park in South Milwaukee.

I ate the entire bucket and everything else in 30 minutes.

I drank the entire bottle of mountain dew.

I felt like a junky on crack..

Then my wife calls me and asked me.

Did you have a big lunch?

I then stated not big, (See it was a very large lunch).

She told me I made the kids there favorite...

No!!!!!!!!

I just ate a Chicken coupe full of chickens.....

Tell me what is the difference between that and any other comfort food or drug????

I am glad that I have lost all the weight...

I still fight the urges every day....

I will be praying for you Neck, I know a few people that live this way.

[jtork]

Many of our forefathers at that food and never had obesity or the health problems we are having.

It's NOT the food! It's our idleness. They ate that food but they worked it off. We eat the same food and sit on our butts and get fatter and fatter.

Sloth comes to mind - another sin - we are all doomed

[edjen01]

just because something is preached as a sin....doesn't make it one. I think I understand the original post....and believe the problem isn't with smoking....its with the idea that everything MUST be defined as "sin" or "not-a-sin". Why? Why can't somethings just be "bad for you"....why do they need the label of "sin" attached to them? Have we(believers) become so void of thought & reason that we need someone to preach to us that ingesting smoke into our bodies will hurt us? Read the package!!

[Neck]

That fact that eating food is a survival issue, what they eat and how much the amount they eat is between them and their God.

Again, Idleness, not working that food off is what makes people fat and unhealthy.

To make the excuse that drinking thunderbird and vodka is fine because someone had too many servings of mash potatos is silly

There are many studies that show a glass of wine a day is a good thing.

It thins your blood naturally.

That is why the Italians have less heart problems even when they are over weight.

[Michael Phelps]

It's just a friendly discussion Michael! It's healthy! I don't overeat, but I do not always eat healthy. But I can say as a long time smoker, you cannot smoke and not harm your body, and other people around you. People that overeat don't usually harm others. Unless they allow their families to do the same. Should preachers preach against it? Yes, but seriously how many people do you think want to hear it preached against? And if a preacher isn't a living example of it, it's hard for him/her to preach it. I do understand the argument of smoking, drinking, vs gluttony.

I totally agree with you Cindy!

The scripture I've most heard used to preach against smoking is "Whosoever defileth the temple, him shall God destroy".

Well, if we are going to use that one, let's include all the things that can do damage to your body, from Sweet and Low to artificial ingredients!

[jtork]

that fact that eating food is a survival issue, what they eat and how much the amount they eat is between them and their god.

Again, idleness, not working that food off is what makes people fat and unhealthy.

To make the excuse that drinking thunderbird and vodka is fine because someone had too many servings of mash potatos is silly

i guess i missed where someone said drinking thunderbird and vodka was fine

[Michael Phelps]

That fact that eating food is a survival issue, what they eat and how much the amount they eat is between them and their God.

Again, Idleness, not working that food off is what makes people fat and unhealthy.

To make the excuse that drinking thunderbird and vodka is fine because someone had too many servings of mash potatos is silly

Who made that excuse, Mark?

[Parkbench]

Years ago, our leader suggested those attending Gen. Conf. would benefit by not having marital you know what. Kind of like an athelete abstaining before competion. I almost took up smoking in place of............but smoking was preached against. I simply quit going to Gen. Conf. :)

[Amos]

Lord, me too!

The accusation that we lump all preachers in the same bucket when discussing one issue, BUT it's okay to throw the whole forum into the cesspool of non-Apostolic posters category - - - gets old.

Renda, you know I love you, but there has been a serious shift here.

You don't notice it if you have not been away a while.

That is fine--I am not on some kind of crusade to change it, just commenting on the reality that I see.

There is a spirit of intolerance for conservatism that has pervaded the place, a hostility that is tangible.

You won't feel it so much if it isn't directed at you.

I am not offended, upset, or in a tizzy.

But I do call em like I see em.

[StMark]

There are many studies that show a glass of wine a day is a good thing.

It thins your blood naturally.

That is why the Italians have less heart problems even when they are over weight.


The same ingredient is found in the grape itself.

the health benefits are found in the fruit not the ferment process

[Neck]

I will be praying for you Neck, I know a few people that live this way.

Haven't done it in a long time...

I know Christmas eve, I will eat all the left over Shrimp.

That will put me on the couch for a few hours...

[Elizabeth]

Lord, me too!

The accusation that we lump all preachers in the same bucket when discussing one issue, BUT it's okay to throw the whole forum into the cesspool of non-Apostolic posters category - - - gets old.

Gets very old-

[Cindy]

Well I do know there are some here that are more Apostolic than I am. And I do think the majority of posters here are Apostolic.

[Elizabeth]

Haven't done it in a long time...

I know Christmas eve, I will eat all the left over Shrimp.

That will put me on the couch for a few hours...

Neck my friend, that doesn't sound fun at all-

Why eat something that is going to put you on the couch for a couple hours feeling miserable??

[StMark]

Who made that excuse, Mark?


You people believe that because some folk eats too many slices of pizza( or whatever food of choice)
That you are justified to have a beer to go with it - That's the logic I am hearing

[2020Vision]

You might be surprised if I told you who it was.

However, I go back to my original premise. I haven't seen one person on this thread who said, "Oh, smoking is a great thing, and should not be preached against!"

What I have seen is, "How come we make smoking a mortal sin, but put our stamp of approval on gluttony?"

The Bible speaks often about gluttony, and in one case connects the "drunkard and the glutton" in the same category.

But, how many sermons have you heard at General Conference about gluttony? How many Bible studies in your local assembly have you taught about gluttony?

That's where my frustration lies.

And, I get even more frustrated when these questions are asked, and someone says "They don't believe in anything any more, it's a non-Apostolic forum".

Phelps, my Pastor spoke of Gluttony a few times. But he didn't spend 90% of his sermon about our dietary customs. He lives that as an example. He spoke in terms of letting our appetites rule us. That's what gluttons do. They can't help but make 5 trips to the buffet, and get a euphoric feeling doing it. Manners are thrown out the window. Eating transcends enjoying a good meal, and turns to an exhibition of one's appetities. I don't believe a poor diet is the same as gluttony, though I believe strongly in making SOME effort in taking care of that too. "Gluttony" comes from a time when social classes were divided. The rich would show off how much food they had, and over-indulge for this purpose.

Nevertheless, I've seen this point brought up many times on this forum. Likely, to have fun with the waist line of preachers. Not all overweight preachers are gluttons. In fact, I know many skinny gluttons! Why do you think people have filled entire threads on this subject? What is it? Smoking has no benefit. Eating has a benefit to us. It's all about reigning in our appetites... and really that goes for all areas of life! It's a principle!

[rgcraig]

Renda, you know I love you, but there has been a serious shift here.

You don't notice it if you have not been away a while.

That is fine--I am not on some kind of crusade to change it, just commenting on the reality that I see.

There is a spirit of intolerance for conservatism that has pervaded the place, a hostility that is tangible.
You won't feel it so much if it isn't directed at you.

I am not offended, upset, or in a tizzy.

But I do call em like I see em.Thank you.

Seriously though - - we've heard this for well over two years now and actually before that on NFCF.

I will say that I believe people are more vocal - - probably for a few reasons, but I won't speak for the forum as a whole.

[Michael Phelps]

You people believe that because some folk eats too many slices of pizza( or whatever food of choice) That you are justified to have a beer to go with it - That's the logic I am hearing

It's comments like this that make me question your basic reading comprehension skills.

[Neck]

The same ingredient is found in the grape itself.

the health benefits are found in the fruit not the ferment process

No the Alcohol thins the blood.

Which helps those who have bad and high Cholesterol

The grape helps to build the outer shell of the blood cell.

Alcoholic wine in a single 4 ouce glass per day is a great way to stay heart healthy...

Even though I do not drink it...

[Cindy]

I was put on a high calorie diet, it was hard to eat very much. I still struggle with overcoming the effects of anorexia. There are still times when trying to even swallow any food is hard for me, and I have to stop eating. But I am over 100 pounds now. Close to 110 I think.Yay!!!!!!

[2020Vision]

Who made that excuse, Mark?

He's making a point use hyperbole. Why overly-literal on someone when they're trying to make a point? He's saying, you can't justify one slothful thing because another is not preached as much against. Makes perfect sense to me. And I think 99% of the people here agree with that.

[edjen01]

You people believe that because some folk eats too many slices of pizza( or whatever food of choice)
That you are justified to have a beer to go with it - That's the logic I am hearing

why is justification needed?

[Baron1710]

No the Alcohol thins the blood.

Which helps those who have bad and high Cholesterol

The grape helps to build the outer shell of the blood cell.

Alcoholic wine in a single 4 ouce glass per day is a great way to stay heart healthy...

Even though I do not drink it...

He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth. And wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart (Psalm 104:14, 15)

God's gift to mankind - wine!

[StMark]

It's comments like this that make me question your basic reading comprehension skills.


NO, I understood just fine thank you.

There's nothing wrong with smoking a cig because some amongst us are guilty of gluttony

[Cindy]

Phelps, my Pastor spoke of Gluttony a few times. But he didn't spend 90% of his sermon about our dietary customs. He lives that as an example. He spoke in terms of letting our appetites rule us. That's what gluttons do. They can't help but make 5 trips to the buffet, and get a euphoric feeling doing it. Manners are thrown out the window. Eating transcends enjoying a good meal, and turns to an exhibition of one's appetities. I don't believe a poor diet is the same as gluttony, though I believe strongly in making SOME effort in taking care of that too. "Gluttony" comes from a time when social classes were divided. The rich would show off how much food they had, and over-indulge for this purpose.

Nevertheless, I've seen this point brought up many times on this forum. Likely, to have fun with the waist line of preachers. Not all overweight preachers are gluttons. In fact, I know many skinny gluttons! Why do you think people have filled entire threads on this subject? What is it? Smoking has no benefit. Eating has a benefit to us. It's all about reigning in our appetites... and really that goes for all areas of life! It's a principle!

AMEN!!!!!!

[jtork]

Renda, you know I love you, but there has been a serious shift here.

You don't notice it if you have not been away a while.

That is fine--I am not on some kind of crusade to change it, just commenting on the reality that I see.

There is a spirit of intolerance for conservatism that has pervaded the place, a hostility that is tangible.

You won't feel it so much if it isn't directed at you.

I am not offended, upset, or in a tizzy.

But I do call em like I see em.

The frustration with conservatism is they are not consistant; say smoking is a sin because it defiles your body the temple of christ but doing other things that is just as bad to your body is not preached against; preach against TV but not the computer; how about preaching against "costly array" - there are scriptures against that too - that is why people get frustrated with conservatives but when a preacher that is conservative gets questioned they that person has a spirit of rebellion.

[Cindy]

He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth. And wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart (Psalm 104:14, 15)

God's gift to mankind - wine!

One of my daughter's ex-boyfriend thinks that God's proof of His love is alcohol!

[2020Vision]

No the Alcohol thins the blood.

Which helps those who have bad and high Cholesterol

The grape helps to build the outer shell of the blood cell.

Alcoholic wine in a single 4 ouce glass per day is a great way to stay heart healthy...

Even though I do not drink it...

And smoking weed has proven to have SOME health benefit. Guess we should light up the joints too. Also, wiping baby urine on your face is proven to soften the skin. Who's lining up for that? LOL

[jtork]

You people believe that because some folk eats too many slices of pizza( or whatever food of choice)
That you are justified to have a beer to go with it - That's the logic I am hearing

The reason you are hearing that logic is that is what you want to hear - you can attack those who disagree with you if you "hear" it that way.

[Cindy]

The frustration with conservatism is they are not consistant; say smoking is a sin because it defiles your body the temple of christ but doing other things that is just as bad to your body is not preached against; preach against TV but not the computer; how about preaching against "costly array" - there are scriptures against that too - that is why people get frustrated with conservatives but when a preacher that is conservative gets questioned they that person has a spirit of rebellion.

Believe me, conservatives are not the only ones that don't like to be questioned.

[Parkbench]

OH MY, there has been such a shift in this forum. Now we are discussing smoking.

Please pass me some pork skins, 4 qt. of Coke, a pack of cigs and sign me up for JP.

[Elizabeth]

I was put on a high calorie diet, it was hard to eat very much. I still struggle with overcoming the effects of anorexia. There are still times when trying to even swallow any food is hard for me, and I have to stop eating. But I am over 100 pounds now. Close to 110 I think.Yay!!!!!!

Good for you! I know anorexia is a hard thing to over come, but it sounds like you are doing a fine job.

I would love to hear your story sometime.

[Baron1710]

One of my daughter's ex-boyfriend thinks that God's proof of His love is alcohol!

Ben Franklin said. “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

[Cindy]

OH MY, there has been such a shift in this forum. Now we are discussing smoking.

Please pass me some pork skins, 4 qt. of Coke, a pack of cigs and sign me up for JP.

Park!!!!!

[Cindy]

Ben Franklin said. “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

I guess that's where he got it.

[Amos]

Well, I can see I am messing up the fun around here. :)

Just make sure you smoke in moderation, I guess. ;)

[Cindy]

Well, I can see I am messing up the fun around here. :)

Just make sure you smoke in moderation, I guess. ;)

:jolly

No such animal!!!!!!!

[StMark]

No the Alcohol thins the blood.

Which helps those who have bad and high Cholesterol

The grape helps to build the outer shell of the blood cell.

Alcoholic wine in a single 4 ouce glass per day is a great way to stay heart healthy...

Even though I do not drink it...



So drinking is good for you .... there are plenty of other ways to improve one's health rather to start up a potentially deadly habit

Neck, I have watched entire families and generations destroyed by drinking. comparing someone eating too much fried chicken to what alcahol has proven to do is silly.
,

[Baron1710]

So drinking is good for you .... there are plenty of other ways to improve one's health rather to start up a potentially deadly habit

Neck, I have watched entire families and generations destroyed by drinking. comparing someone eating too much fried chicken to what alcahol has proven to do is silly.
,

Yep drinking is good for you and so is eating, just not too much.

[Cindy]

So drinking is good for you .... there are plenty of other ways to improve one's health rather to start up a potentially deadly habit

Neck, I have watched entire families and generations destroyed by drinking. comparing someone eating too much fried chicken to what alcahol has proven to do is silly.
,

A lot of mother's and father's die young from heart disease, and damaging other organs due to not eating healthy though Mark.

[StMark]

Yep drinking is good for you and so is eating, just not too much.


Let's tell our young people that

[Amos]

OH MY, there has been such a shift in this forum. Now we are discussing smoking.

Please pass me some pork skins, 4 qt. of Coke, a pack of cigs and sign me up for JP.


Bro, in another place under another name, you and I used to correspond in a friendly manner.

I don't understand the little dig here. :(

[Michael Phelps]

He's making a point use hyperbole. Why overly-literal on someone when they're trying to make a point? He's saying, you can't justify one slothful thing because another is not preached as much against. Makes perfect sense to me. And I think 99% of the people here agree with that.

Probably be good if you didn't speak for 99% of the forum.

That's NOT what he was saying. It's the same ploy that conservatives use all the time, "If you don't believe THIS ONE THING, you must not believe anything".

[Baron1710]

Let's tell our young people that

Sure.


No, it's better to tell them its a sin and then when they look in Scripture and see you were lying to them then they can discount everything else too.

[Cindy]

Let's tell our young people that

Mark, some doctors prescribe wine for people to make them healthier. Not a bright idea for alcoholics though.

[Elizabeth]

So drinking is good for you .... there are plenty of other ways to improve one's health rather to start up a potentially deadly habit

Neck, I have watched entire families and generations destroyed by drinking. comparing someone eating too much fried chicken to what alcohol has proven to do is silly.


I would have to agree with you on that point,

Alcohol has the potential of wrecking so much havoc, not only in the drinker but in the family of that drinker as well.

Where as gluttony affects the individual the most, I am sure it affects the family too but in comparison to alcohol, there is no comparison.

[Cindy]

Probably be good if you didn't speak for 99% of the forum.

That's NOT what he was saying. It's the same ploy that conservatives use all the time, "If you don't believe THIS ONE THING, you must not believe anything".

And then of course liberals do not use ploys.:christmoose

[jtork]

sure.


No, it's better to tell them its a sin and then when they look in scripture and see you were lying to them then they can discount everything else too.

ouch :)

[Michael Phelps]

NO, I understood just fine thank you.

There's nothing wrong with smoking a cig because some amongst us are guilty of gluttony

You are wrong. Go back and read my posts.

I do NOT condone smoking. I'm asking for consistency.

[Michael Phelps]

And then of course liberals do not use ploys.:christmoose

Cindy, I'm not going to have this discussion with you.

[rgcraig]

You people believe that because some folk eats too many slices of pizza( or whatever food of choice)
That you are justified to have a beer to go with it - That's the logic I am hearing

You are hearing WRONG.

[Elizabeth]

A lot of mother's and father's die young from heart disease, and damaging other organs due to not eating healthy though Mark.

This is true,

Although a mother when she is expecting a child can overeat with some residual problems- but the fetus will remain normal-

But a mother who expecting who drinks alcohol can damage the fetus with fetal alcohol syndrome which there is no cure for but is %100 preventable.

[2020Vision]

Probably be good if you didn't speak for 99% of the forum.

That's NOT what he was saying. It's the same ploy that conservatives use all the time, "If you don't believe THIS ONE THING, you must not believe anything".

I didn't speak for 99% of the forum. Said "I think", which implies it is my opinion that most are not proponents of boozing. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. People who stand for nothing fall for anything. I just choose to believe there are still many people that will stand for something, despite the criticism. It's easier to not stand for anything and criticize those that have a position.

My intepretation of what St Mark was saying is just as valid as yours, whether you choose to believe it or not. Ploy? You swear there's a vast right wing conspiracy. Careful that lunancy doesn't sink in.

[2020Vision]

Cindy, I'm not going to have this discussion with you.

Of course not.

[Cindy]

Sure.


No, it's better to tell them its a sin and then when they look in Scripture and see you were lying to them then they can discount everything else too.

Wow, that leaves a lot of room.

[Michael Phelps]

So, let me ask a question of the pastors on this thread - do you preach against smoking?

Do you make it a heaven or hell issue?

And, if you do, what scripture do you use?

[Cindy]

Cindy, I'm not going to have this discussion with you.

Sheesh!!!!!! I was just kidding.

[Michael Phelps]

Of course not.

We can have this discussion on another thread, let's not sidetrack from the original issue.

[2020Vision]

Sure.


No, it's better to tell them its a sin and then when they look in Scripture and see you were lying to them then they can discount everything else too.

Now THAT sounds like living by the letter of the law and not the spirit. Spirit gives permission to hedge convictions for your family, to protect them. I would never call my Dad a liar because he kept me from some thing that were not explicit in scripture. A loving dad does that. He's consistent with Scripture in spirit.

[Elizabeth]

We have a lot of :stirpot going on this thread! :D

[jtork]

Now THAT sounds like living by the letter of the law and not the spirit. Spirit gives permission to hedge convictions for your family, to protect them. I would never call my Dad a liar because he kept me from some thing that were not explicit in scripture. A loving dad does that. He's consistent with Scripture in spirit.

You know the key word here is LOVING

[Cindy]

This is true,

Although a mother when she is expecting a child can overeat with some residual problems- but the fetus will remain normal-

But a mother who expecting who drinks alcohol can damage the fetus with fetal alcohol syndrome which there is no cure for but is %100 preventable.

That is one of the most pitiful things I have seen in my life. Back in the days of the 60's & 70's so many young girls drinking and doing drugs when they were pregnant. I was one of them with my first child. I was just a kid, and I did know right from wrong. But of course when you are living that life it doesn't matter. And there are consequences that you live with the rest of your life. As do the kids.

[2020Vision]

So, let me ask a question of the pastors on this thread - do you preach against smoking?

Do you make it a heaven or hell issue?

And, if you do, what scripture do you use?

Phelps, this is a waste of time. Then you will get back on the Glutton horse and ask them why they don't give equal time to other sins. The Fairness Doctrine. Can we ask YOU a question? Do you believe it's okay for a Child of God to smoke cigarettes? You believe it pleases God?

[2020Vision]

You know the key word here is LOVING

Agreed.

[Cindy]

We have a lot of :stirpot going on this thread! :D

And diversity.:santathumb

[RandyWayne]

And diversity.:santathumb

A..... rainbow!

[jtork]

Phelps, this is a waste of time. Then you will get back on the Glutton horse and ask them why they don't give equal time to other sins. The Fairness Doctrine. Can we ask YOU a question? Do you believe it's okay for a Child of God to smoke cigarettes? You believe it pleases God?

*******************NEWS FLASH******************** NO ONE HAS SAID THEY BELIEVE IT IS OK FOR A CHILD OF GOD TO SMOKE CIGARETTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is what you guys that do not like our position on this keep trying to say -once again NO ON HAS SAID THAT!!!!!! SMOKING IS DISGUSTING, HORRIBLE FOR YOUR BODY THE QUESTION IS WHY IS OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HARMFUL TO YOUR BODY NOT PREACHED AGAINST AS WELL no one can seem to really give an answer the question.

[Michael Phelps]

Phelps, this is a waste of time. Then you will get back on the Glutton horse and ask them why they don't give equal time to other sins. The Fairness Doctrine. Can we ask YOU a question? Do you believe it's okay for a Child of God to smoke cigarettes? You believe it pleases God?

Are you a pastor?

[Michael Phelps]

*******************NEWS FLASH******************** NO ONE HAS SAID THEY BELIEVE IT IS OK FOR A CHILD OF GOD TO SMOKE CIGARETTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is what you guys that do not like our position on this keep trying to say -once again NO ON HAS SAID THAT!!!!!! SMOKING IS DISGUSTING, HORRIBLE FOR YOUR BODY THE QUESTION IS WHY IS OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HARMFUL TO YOUR BODY NOT PREACHED AGAINST AS WELL no one can seem to really give an answer the question.

No pun intended, but here's where they start throwing out the smoke screen. Check out newbie's response to my question.

[Elizabeth]

That is one of the most pitiful things I have seen in my life. Back in the days of the 60's & 70's so many young girls drinking and doing drugs when they were pregnant. I was one of them with my first child. I was just a kid, and I did know right from wrong. But of course when you are living that life it doesn't matter. And there are consequences that you live with the rest of your life. As do the kids.

It's the results of sin, and innocent life is affected-

But thank God we know the answer to the sin problem.

[StMark]

Sure.


No, it's better to tell them its a sin and then when they look in Scripture and see you were lying to them then they can discount everything else too.


Baron,

The effects that drinking has on the lives of OTHERS proves the scriptures right. I'm not going to get into a debate about it, but I've seen families grieve because their loved ones were killed as a result of liquor. What you eat, you potentially do harm to yourself. Drinking leads to so many other things that destroys many souls. As a pastor's son, I've seen the abuse and shattered lives. No one can convince me otherwise. the proof is in the "pudding"

[Amos]

Phelps, this is a waste of time. Then you will get back on the Glutton horse and ask them why they don't give equal time to other sins. The Fairness Doctrine. Can we ask YOU a question? Do you believe it's okay for a Child of God to smoke cigarettes? You believe it pleases God?



"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

That's what Emerson said about the fairness doctrine.

[Michael Phelps]

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

That's what Emerson said about the fairness doctrine.

So, what you are saying is that "consistency is over rated"?:santathumb

[jtork]

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

That's what Emerson said about the fairness doctrine.



Exactly what is your point here - are you saying that since it was asked by someone on this thread for scripture for something that is preached that it is foolish? You just don't want to give the scripture because YOU KNOW that the same scripture proves our point.

[2020Vision]

So, what you are saying is that "consistency is over rated"?:santathumb

You just seem hung up on it. And I like you. Enjoy your posts, though we are more often than not in agreement.

[2020Vision]

Exactly what is your point here - are you saying that since it was asked by someone on this thread for scripture for something that is preached that it is foolish? You just don't want to give the scripture because YOU KNOW that the same scripture proves our point.

?? Who is disagreeing with YOUR point that we should take care of our temple and eat right, live healthy???

[Amos]

So, what you are saying is that "consistency is over rated"?:santathumb

The way it is arbitrarily defined by anybody with an axe to grind, yes. :)

[Michael Phelps]

You just seem hung up on it. And I like you. Enjoy your posts, though we are more often than not in agreement.

I'm driving to a point here, are you a pastor? Do you preach or teach in your local assembly?

[2020Vision]

I'm driving to a point here, are you a pastor? Do you preach or teach in your local assembly?

No and Yes. You??

[StMark]

~ ~ A SIMPLE PRAYER ~ ~

Dear Lord, I just want to thank you that we are right, Amos, St Mark, 20/20 and Ferd, and all those other beer drinking, cigarette smoking, gambling so called church folk are WRONG. convict them of their sins before it's too late. AMEN


Brethren, let's stick together. No need to argue with people that have their minds made up to smoke and drink. They have to want to be delivered from it first.


Good Day

[Michael Phelps]

No and Yes. You??

So, have you ever preached against smoking?

If so, do you make it a heaven or hell issue?

And, if you do, what scriptures do you use to support that?

[Amos]

Exactly what is your point here - are you saying that since it was asked by someone on this thread for scripture for something that is preached that it is foolish? You just don't want to give the scripture because YOU KNOW that the same scripture proves our point.


I don't disagree that we ought to keep our bodies healthy.

Where did that come from?

I have read on here that smoking ought not be preached against.

You are creating an argument where there is none.

[jtork]

~ ~ A SIMPLE PRAYER ~ ~

Dear Lord, I just want to thank you that we are right, Amos, St Mark, 20/20 and Ferd, and all those other beer drinking, cigarette smoking, gambling so called church folk are WRONG. convict them of their sins before it's too late. AMEN


Brethren, let's stick together. No need to argue with people that have their minds made up to smoke and drink. They have to want to be delivered from it first.


Good Day

You have got to be kidding me - LOL - are you really serious with this post?????

[rgcraig]

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

That's what Emerson said about the fairness doctrine.

Fairness is overrated too!

[Amos]

Fairness is overrated too!


Yep. :)

[Michael Phelps]

I don't disagree that we ought to keep our bodies healthy.

Where did that come from?

I have read on here that smoking ought not be preached against.

You are creating an argument where there is none.

I am curious as to where you read that anyone said smoking should not be preached against. Maybe I missed that post?

[2020Vision]

So, have you ever preached against smoking?

If so, do you make it a heaven or hell issue?

And, if you do, what scriptures do you use to support that?

Most converts with common sense and that have just received the Holy Ghost, instinctly know that cigarette just doesn't fit their new home. Converts don't ask for scripture and verse for something like cigarettes, only people wishing to debate for the sake of debate do. If they ask, or when they've asked you KNOW which verse I use: our body is a temple of the Holy Ghost. To defile it with cigarette smoking is useless and pointless. Hell issue? Well, just find another church. We don't do that. We have some converts that it takes a couple months for them to break the habit, but God helps them and I've been delighted to watch God work in their life.

Heaven or hell.... wow... it always comes down to that. Can't we just please the Lord?

Now your turn. Tell us what you believe. Is smoking wrong or not???

[rgcraig]

I don't disagree that we ought to keep our bodies healthy.

Where did that come from?

I have read on here that smoking ought not be preached against.

You are creating an argument where there is none.

Well, I must apologize - - I didn't realize it had been posted that preaching against smoking ought not be preached against.

My answer to the thread title is NO!!!

I thought the discussion was since we preach against smoking why don't we preach against other things that harm the body (i.e. gluttony since that is mentioned in the Bible)

[rgcraig]

You have got to be kidding me - LOL - are you really serious with this post?????

He's stirring the pot - because before he's been on the other side saying why don't we preach against gluttony. :santathumb

[2020Vision]

Well, I must apologize - - I didn't realize it had been posted that preaching against smoking ought not be preached against.

My answer to the thread title is NO!!!

I thought the discussion was since we preach against smoking why don't we preach against other things that harm the body (i.e. gluttony since that is mentioned in the Bible)

I think some were bringing up this point to justify another end. Maybe they can clarify. Attention all antagonists, are you arguing for gluttony to prove why cigarettes and liquor should not be preached against, or are you desiring your own pastor to preach more sermons on diet and living healthy? Please clarify.

[Elizabeth]

~ ~ A SIMPLE PRAYER ~ ~

Dear Lord, I just want to thank you that we are right, Amos, St Mark, 20/20 and Ferd, and all those other beer drinking, cigarette smoking, gambling so called church folk are WRONG. convict them of their sins before it's too late. AMEN


Brethren, let's stick together. No need to argue with people that have their minds made up to smoke and drink. They have to want to be delivered from it first.


Good Day



:stirpot

[jtork]

I don't disagree that we ought to keep our bodies healthy.

Where did that come from?

I have read on here that smoking ought not be preached against.

You are creating an argument where there is none.



LOL - who said smoking should not be preached against????? No One has said that but yet several people on here keep saying it has!!!! I am still waiting for the scripture that is used to preach against smoking - let me say ONCE AGAIN - I do not smoke - I don't think God is pleased with people that smoke just as much as I do not think God is pleased with disregard to what we put in our bodies with what we eat. Now please tell us the scripture you use - haven't heard it yet.

[Michael Phelps]

Most converts with common sense and that have just received the Holy Ghost, instinctly know that cigarette just doesn't fit their new home. Converts don't ask for scripture and verse for something like cigarettes, only people wishing to debate for the sake of debate do. If they ask, or when they've asked you KNOW which verse I use: our body is a temple of the Holy Ghost. To defile it with cigarette smoking is useless and pointless. Hell issue? Well, just find another church. We don't do that. We have some converts that it takes a couple months for them to break the habit, but God helps them and I've been delighted to watch God work in their life.

Heaven or hell.... wow... it always comes down to that. Can't we just please the Lord?

Now your turn. Tell us what you believe. Is smoking wrong or not???

I agree that there are many things we should do because we love God, but that wasn't the question I asked - that you conveniently failed to answer.

Ok, I'm going to lay out my case here, because I have to get back to work.

I've heard plenty of preachers preach that smoking will send you to hell, and they used the "defiling the temple" scripture.

However, consider these facts:

Left unabated, obesity will surpass smoking as the leading cause of preventable death in America

Obesity has been linked to: Hypertension, Coronary Heart Disease, Adult Onset Diabetes, Stroke, Gall Bladder Disease, Osteoarthritis, Sleep Apnea, Respiratory Problems, Endometrial, Breast, Prostate and Colon Cancers, Dyslipidemia, steatohepatitis, insulin resistance, breathlessness, Asthma, Hyperuricaemia, reproductive hormone abnormalities, polycystic ovarian syndrome, impaired fertility and lower back pain

Have you ever heard a preacher preach that being obese will send someone to hell? I haven't.

How many preachers are going to start preaching against fast food, since it's been linked to heart disease, liver disease, and much more?

I am absolutely against smoking, but I am not going to preach that someone will go to hell for smoking, when I can't preach that they'll go to hell for being obese.

[Amos]

I think what is being said here is the messeges being preached on smoking and drinking and not being preached on the other unhealthy things in the world I have heard plenty testify how jesus saved them from drinking and smoking but never heard anyone testify about being delivered from KFC,POYPES OR CHURCHES CHICKEN I myself personally think this should not be preached since it is not biblical about smoking and drinking but you should use common since.

Bump for MP.

[Michael Phelps]

Bump for MP.

Ah, thanks, I did miss that one.

[RandyWayne]

Now I HAVE heard others here say that "No one who smokes will be in the bride". Guess who... hint hint.

While I strongly disagree with that statement -even thinking it is a dangerous thing to say as well as being stupid, I also think there is a reason that cigarettes are given up by so many new Christians........ It is simply God looking out for his kids and trying to keep them from doing something incredibly stupid to themselves. (Yes, overeating is BAD as well, but for some reason made light of in the current apostolic culture.)

[Amos]

Smoking is not a sin. It's unwise, like eating too much of the wrong stuff, but not a sin.

Here you have it--smoking isn't a sin.

[Elizabeth]

Most converts with common sense and that have just received the Holy Ghost, instinctly know that cigarette just doesn't fit their new home. Converts don't ask for scripture and verse for something like cigarettes, only people wishing to debate for the sake of debate do. If they ask, or when they've asked you KNOW which verse I use: our body is a temple of the Holy Ghost. To defile it with cigarette smoking is useless and pointless. Hell issue? Well, just find another church. We don't do that. We have some converts that it takes a couple months for them to break the habit, but God helps them and I've been delighted to watch God work in their life.

Heaven or hell.... wow... it always comes down to that. Can't we just please the Lord?

Now your turn. Tell us what you believe. Is smoking wrong or not???
Wow. so what is it like living in a perfect world?? Where converts just instinctly know-that must be really nice.

[2020Vision]

I agree that there are many things we should do because we love God, but that wasn't the question I asked - that you conveniently failed to answer.

Ok, I'm going to lay out my case here, because I have to get back to work.

I've heard plenty of preachers preach that smoking will send you to hell, and they used the "defiling the temple" scripture.

However, consider these facts:

Left unabated, obesity will surpass smoking as the leading cause of preventable death in America

Obesity has been linked to: Hypertension, Coronary Heart Disease, Adult Onset Diabetes, Stroke, Gall Bladder Disease, Osteoarthritis, Sleep Apnea, Respiratory Problems, Endometrial, Breast, Prostate and Colon Cancers, Dyslipidemia, steatohepatitis, insulin resistance, breathlessness, Asthma, Hyperuricaemia, reproductive hormone abnormalities, polycystic ovarian syndrome, impaired fertility and lower back pain

Have you ever heard a preacher preach that being obese will send someone to hell? I haven't.

How many preachers are going to start preaching against fast food, since it's been linked to heart disease, liver disease, and much more?

I am absolutely against smoking, but I am not going to preach that someone will go to hell for smoking, when I can't preach that they'll go to hell for being obese.

Well, if the man of God confronted the person to get rid of it and they refused because they wanted to see "consistency", I'd say there was a deeper spiritual problem. Else, find a new church.

I knew where you were going with this. How in God's name can you tell obese people they are going to hell? How twisted are you? Obesity has many causes, not the least being genetic, hereditary, based on metabolism, etc... You are trying to draw the picture that they are all gluttoness slobs. Shame!

[Amos]

I don't think smoking is a sin but it is unheathy but then again so is alot of other things in the world.. after all where in the bible does it say smoking is a sin..There is enough stuff in the world we breath in without having to add smokes to the mix....

Another one--it isn't a sin, and isn't in the Bible.

[jtork]

I think some were bringing up this point to justify another end. Maybe they can clarify. Attention all antagonists, are you arguing for gluttony to prove why cigarettes and liquor should not be preached against, or are you desiring your own pastor to preach more sermons on diet and living healthy? Please clarify.


I WOULD LOVE IT if preachers taught more on diet and living healthy - can you imagine what a testimony it would be to non-believers if we were all wonderfully healthy!!!!!!

[2020Vision]

Wow some what is it like living in a perfect world?? Where converts just instinctly know-that must be really nice.

You missed the whole "Spirit leads us into all Truth".

If that isn't happening at your Church, maybe there's so much concern for consistency, that everyone if afraid to stand for ANYTHING, lest they be inconsistent.

[Michael Phelps]

Well, if the man of God confronted the person to get rid of it and they refused because they wanted to see "consistency", I'd say there was a deeper spiritual problem. Else, find a new church.

I knew where you were going with this. How in God's name can you tell obese people they are going to hell? How twisted are you? Obesity has many causes, not the least being genetic, hereditary, based on metabolism, etc... You are trying to draw the picture that they are all gluttoness slobs. Shame!

Sorry, I'm not the one who made that claim. I just posted facts.

And, I will say, you are right, some inherit it, but there are a host more who eat themselves into it.

I've made my point, work calleth! Good day to you, sir!

[2020Vision]

I WOULD LOVE IT if preachers taught more on diet and living healthy - can you imagine what a testimony it would be to non-believers if we were all wonderfully healthy!!!!!!

Agree. It would be awesome. Fact is, there are millions of reasons that we are unhealthy. Cigarettes is isolated. We can rule it out that it has no value and no good.

People get mad because I won't answer "Will this send you to hell?" These are sophomoric questions, no offense. I don't send to hell. If you don't believe cigarette smoking is sin, then there is a greater gulf that separates some of us in this forum than I thought. Thanks for being honest, Phelps.

[Michael Phelps]

Agree. It would be awesome. Fact is, there are millions of reasons that we are unhealthy. Cigarettes is isolated. We can rule it out that it has no value and no good.

People get mad because I won't answer "Will this send you to hell?" These are sophomoric questions, no offense. I don't send to hell. If you don't believe cigarette smoking is sin, then there is a greater gulf that separates some of us in this forum than I thought. Thanks for being honest, Phelps.

I always am, Double Vision. And, you're alright, I enjoy your posts, as well - I like to spar with you!

[2020Vision]

Sorry, I'm not the one who made that claim. I just posted facts.

And, I will say, you are right, some inherit it, but there are a host more who eat themselves into it.

I've made my point, work calleth! Good day to you, sir!

Your point is very weak. Cigarette smoking has no good intention. Eating does. Gluttony is sin. Smoking is sin. However, obesity is not sin.

Did you know stress can cause diseases? So I guess anyone dealing with stress or having a down moment is sinning as well? And that's your idea of justifying that none of it is wrong? Unbelievable.

[Elizabeth]

Well, if the man of God confronted the person to get rid of it and they refused because they wanted to see "consistency", I'd say there was a deeper spiritual problem. Else, find a new church.

I knew where you were going with this. How in God's name can you tell obese people they are going to hell? How twisted are you? Obesity has many causes, not the least being genetic, hereditary, based on metabolism, etc... You are trying to draw the picture that they are all gluttoness slobs. Shame!

Are you not understanding the point Mike is making??

Then how twisted is it to tell people who smoke they are going to hell, but for someone who has purposely over eats to point of gluttony on a continual basis is not??

[jtork]

Your point is very weak. Cigarette smoking has no good intention. Eating does. Gluttony is sin. Smoking is sin. However, obesity is not sin.

Did you know stress can cause diseases? So I guess anyone dealing with stress or having a down moment is sinning as well? And that's your idea of justifying that none of it is wrong? Unbelievable.



If your obesity is caused from your gluttony it is sin.

[2020Vision]

I always am, Double Vision. And, you're alright, I enjoy your posts, as well - I like to spar with you!

Right back to you. Although, I'm astounded of the position you are taking on this particular thread. I'll forgive you.

[2020Vision]

If your obesity is caused from your gluttony it is sin.

Yes, but then again, it's not the obesity that is a sin. It's the gluttony. Obesity is the consequence of SOME that consistently over-eat.

[Cindy]

It's the results of sin, and innocent life is affected-

But thank God we know the answer to the sin problem.

Yes, we do. Thank you Jesus!

[jtork]

Yes, but then again, it's not the obesity that is a sin. It's the gluttony. Obesity is the consequence of SOME that consistently over-eat.


Did not say obesity was a sin - I believe my stance all along as been gluttony is a sin just as anything else you do that defiles your body.

[StMark]

Cursing is okay. fowl talk is fine. Afterall, we've all said things that were wrong. Everyone's guilty of such so it justifies the act altogther

[2020Vision]

Are you not understanding the point Mike is making??

Then how twisted is it to tell people who smoke they are going to hell, but for someone who has purposely over eats to point of gluttony on a continual basis is not??

Fact is, I don't remember telling a smoker they are going to hell. Never had to. We preach against it and let them know it doesn't please God. It goes without saying. I'm not missing his point at all. This is like a child getting caught, trying to complain about everything his brother did to get him out of the trouble he's in.

Some of you like blanket, tidy consistency and are afraid to approach issues one-by-one. A glutton, one who is given to vicious appetities and overeating, is surely in sin. I think they are BOTH sinning. There!

[2020Vision]

Did not say obesity was a sin - I believe my stance all along as been gluttony is a sin just as anything else you do that defiles your body.

Right... this was a carry-over from my dialogue with Phelps, to which you commented.

[Elizabeth]

You missed the whole "Spirit leads us into all Truth".

If that isn't happening at your Church, maybe there's so much concern for consistency, that everyone if afraid to stand for ANYTHING, lest they be inconsistent.

Wow!!!! Wow!!!!

First of all I didn't miss anything....you are using one theory under which must apply to every single believer and it doesn't work that way in the real world.

People have to be taught,

Secondly I don't think you have a clue as what is happening in my church.

[jtork]

I agree that just because someone is labeled "obese" does not mean that are guilty of gluttony - according to the BMI charts my husband is obese because of his weight/height ratio -but he weighs more because he works out alot and we all know muscle weighs more than fat but it still puts him at obese.

[Cindy]

Has anybody mentioned not being afraid of what destroys our bodies, but destroys our souls?

[jtork]

Cursing is okay. fowl talk is fine. Afterall, we've all said things that were wrong. Everyone's guilty of such so it justifies the act altogther

You don't even make any sense now - LOL

[Amos]

Fact is, I don't remember telling a smoker they are going to hell. Never had to. We preach against it and let them know it doesn't please God. It goes without saying. I'm not missing his point at all. This is like a child getting caught, trying to complain about everything his brother did to get him out of the trouble he's in.

Some of you like blanket, tidy consistency and are afraid to approach issues one-by-one. A glutton, one who is given to vicious appetities and overeating, is surely in sin. I think they are BOTH sinning. There!

This is the most insidious kind of legalism--the kind that wants to turn the New Testament into just another rule book, sort of a kinder, gentler, more permissive version of the law.

And if we can't find a specific Scripture forbidding it, it is fair game.

[Elizabeth]

Fact is, I don't remember telling a smoker they are going to hell. Never had to. We preach against it and let them know it doesn't please God. It goes without saying. I'm not missing his point at all. This is like a child getting caught, trying to complain about everything his brother did to get him out of the trouble he's in.

Some of you like blanket, tidy consistency and are afraid to approach issues one-by-one. A glutton, one who is given to vicious appetities and overeating, is surely in sin. I think they are BOTH sinning. There!


And I am not one of these.

[2020Vision]

Wow!!!! Wow!!!!

First of all I didn't miss anything....you are using one theory under which must apply to every single believer and it doesn't work that way in the real world.

People have to be taught,

Secondly I don't think you have a clue as what is happening in my church.

I don't have a clue, Jeanie. Once again, never said I KNEW. "MAYBE" implies a theory, a guess. We believe in teaching. I've also seen many people take care of things all on their own, without a person telling them. Just last service we had a young man do something all on his own. Teaching is crucial. The Spirit does a whole lot of teaching too.

[Cindy]

You don't even make any sense now - LOL

His mind works differently.:christmoose But, sometimes he's right.

[Cindy]

I gotta go and scan pictures of my grandbabies to show y'all.:christmasjig

[2020Vision]

This is the most insidious kind of legalism--the kind that wants to turn the New Testament into just another rule book, sort of a kinder, gentler, more permissive version of the law.

And if we can't find a specific Scripture forbidding it, it is fair game.

"let the Spiritual judge"

Brother, you can use your code words all day "legalism", "Pharisee" (others use), "rules", but I'm just telling you that you're wrong. It's not a rule book to make spiritual decisions on issues. It's responsibility.

[Elizabeth]

I don't have a clue, Jeanie. Once again, never said I KNEW. "MAYBE" implies a theory, a guess. We believe in teaching. I've also seen many people take care of things all on their own, without a person telling them. Just last service we had a young man do something all on his own. Teaching is crucial. The Spirit does a whole lot of teaching too.

I know it does,

[Amos]

"let the Spiritual judge"

Brother, you can use your code words all day "legalism", "Pharisee" (others use), "rules", but I'm just telling you that you're wrong. It's not a rule book to make spiritual decisions on issues. It's responsibility.

Bro, I agree with you.

I am describing the mindset of the Pharisee hunters here--that is how they view the Scripture.

[Elizabeth]

I gotta go and scan pictures of my grandbabies to show y'all.:christmasjig

They are cute! My 2 yr old, was noticing the tractor one of them is riding!:santathumb

[Rhoni]

I would like to know why tobacco is a sin? Is it b/c its unhealthy? If thats the case a lot of things could be added to the list. Sugar, sodium, and phenylalanine. The last one is found in diet drinks and is known to cause multiple health issues. Is it b/c of the addiction? I have read that nicotine has the same addictive qualities as herion. If thats the case we should still adhere to the preachers I heard years ago preaching against caffiene.

Nicotine Dependence 305.1 Is a diagnosed mental illness. Enough said!:christmoose

[2020Vision]

Bro, I agree with you.

I am describing the mindset of the Pharisee hunters here--that is how they view the Scripture.

Sorry, Amos. I misunderstood your post.

[Rhoni]

Nicotine Dependence 305.1 Is a diagnosed mental illness. Enough said!:christmoose

:snowing

[2020Vision]

Bro, I agree with you.

I am describing the mindset of the Pharisee hunters here--that is how they view the Scripture.

What you say is sort of ironic. The "anti-legalists" have, in a way, created a new kind of legalism that reads the Scriptures according to the letter only.

[Amos]

Sorry, Amos. I misunderstood your post.

I knew you did.

The kind of legalism we are seeing on this thread is the worst kind--the kind that says "If you can't show me chapter and verse specifically forbidding it, it is ok."

[Rhoni]

What you say is sort of ironic. The "anti-legalists" have, in a way, created a new kind of legalism that reads the Scriptures according to the letter only.

I do agree that many who proclaim freedom from legalism are also legalists.:santathumb

[Amos]

What you say is sort of ironic. The "anti-legalists" have, in a way, created a new kind of legalism that reads the Scriptures according to the letter only.

Exactly.

That is the truest definition of legalism.

Jesus rebuked the pharisees for that very thing--looking for loopholes.

[Ferd]

Renda, you know I love you, but there has been a serious shift here.

You don't notice it if you have not been away a while.

That is fine--I am not on some kind of crusade to change it, just commenting on the reality that I see.

There is a spirit of intolerance for conservatism that has pervaded the place, a hostility that is tangible.

You won't feel it so much if it isn't directed at you.

I am not offended, upset, or in a tizzy.

But I do call em like I see em.


... in addition far too often there is a desire to justify the opposite of everything ever preached in an Apostolic church.

[Michael Phelps]

I knew you did.

The kind of legalism we are seeing on this thread is the worst kind--the kind that says "If you can't show me chapter and verse specifically forbidding it, it is ok."

Lol, you guys kill me.

No one is saying smoking is ok, we're just asking why the same amount of emphasis is not placed on other things that are just as dangerous to one's health?????????????????????????

Argh, I give up!

Back to work!

[jtork]

I knew you did.

The kind of legalism we are seeing on this thread is the worst kind--the kind that says "If you can't show me chapter and verse specifically forbidding it, it is ok."

That is not what I am saying - I am just asking why the same logic is not used - I know what scripture is used for smoking but it seems to me we should use the same scripture for things other than just smoking.

[Praxeas]

I would like to know why tobacco is a sin? Is it b/c its unhealthy? If thats the case a lot of things could be added to the list. Sugar, sodium, and phenylalanine. The last one is found in diet drinks and is known to cause multiple health issues. Is it b/c of the addiction? I have read that nicotine has the same addictive qualities as herion. If thats the case we should still adhere to the preachers I heard years ago preaching against caffiene.

Sugar and Sodium are not unhealthy. Sugar and SALT in high quanties are unhealthy

Tobacco is addictive and is a non-nutriant. It's not a vitamin, mineral or a spice.