I Love You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Kid]

"How do I love thee? Let me count the ways."

The author of this statement obviously captured the deeper thought that there is more to love than just feelings and emotions.

I have maintained the same premise throughout the other thread(s) that there are forces that influence our relationships.

I believe the apostolic culture has a tremendous influence in terms of directing, and creating an environment or set of rules regarding how to operate within the culture.

There are some pastors who do not have a genuine family first mentality. They believe that the church is somehow grafted into the family unit, therefore, by virtue of saying family first he is saying church family first.

This of course is an attempt to resurrect the s--y discussion.

For the sake of RRFord, I have asked no questions. :D

[rrford]

"Perfect love casteth out all fear."

The author of this statement obviously captured the deeper thought that there is more to love than just feelings and emotions.

I have maintained the same premise throughout my 20 or so years in the ministry.

I believe the true apostolic culture has a tremendous influence in terms of directing, and creating an environment of that love and teachings that protect that love and allow one to become a mature child of God.

There are some pastors who do have a genuine family first mentality. Men such as myself who made a ministerial position change primarily because of the spiritual welfare and overall happiness of his family. They believe that the church is secondary to the family unit, therefore, by virtue of saying family first he is saying God first.

This of course is NOT an attempt to resurrect the s--y discussion.

For the sake Carp, I have also asked no questions.

[The Kid]

"Perfect love casteth out all fear."

The author of this statement obviously captured the deeper thought that there is more to love than just feelings and emotions.

I have maintained the same premise throughout my 20 or so years in the ministry.

I believe the true apostolic culture has a tremendous influence in terms of directing, and creating an environment of that love and teachings that protect that love and allow one to become a mature child of God.

There are some pastors who do have a genuine family first mentality. Men such as myself who made a ministerial position change primarily because of the spiritual welfare and overall happiness of his family. They believe that the church is secondary to the family unit, therefore, by virtue of saying family first he is saying God first.

This of course is NOT an attempt to resurrect the s--y discussion.

For the sake Carp, I have also asked no questions.

:killinme

Fantastic! I love it.

So you are saying that you have removed the Church from the network of the family unit?

[rrford]

:killinme

Fantastic! I love it.

So you are saying that you have removed the Church from the network of the family unit?

That is an impossibility as you state it. In light of scripture can one be a true family without the Church? (Not wanting to delve into either semantics or the philosophical, but I believe there is merit to the question.)

[Rhoni]

"How do I love thee? Let me count the ways."

The author of this statement obviously captured the deeper thought that there is more to love than just feelings and emotions.

I have maintained the same premise throughout the other thread(s) that there are forces that influence our relationships.

I believe the apostolic culture has a tremendous influence in terms of directing, and creating an environment or set of rules regarding how to operate within the culture.

There are some pastors who do not have a genuine family first mentality. They believe that the church is somehow grafted into the family unit, therefore, by virtue of saying family first he is saying church family first.

This of course is an attempt to resurrect the s--y discussion.

For the sake of RRFord, I have asked no questions. :D

I have ridden on both sides of the fence, but when all is said and done...it is family that you have when all the church family has forsaken you;)!

There is a separation between church and family. I have to admire Bro. Kershaw. A man came to visit the church who had previously been a member of Bro. Kershaw's church. He said something to the effect that he felt like Bro. Kershaw was his father. Bro. Kershaw said, " I don't think my children would accept that but I appreciate the compliment". He set a boundary. This is a good thing.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

It is not "Healthy" to triangulate the church members into a family unit. It is not scriptural either.

Blessings, Rhoni

[rgcraig]

Excellent Carp!

Perfect timing with Valentine's Day tomorrow.

[rgcraig]

Straight out of Bible College and into the ministry, I believe my husband and I started off on the wrong foot with all this church/family/love stuff.

He was trying so hard to do the right thing with the pastor of the church that we were assisting that he put the church and the pastor before he did our relationship.

I wouldn't blame that on the church or even the pastor, but immaturity on my husband's part. It was two of the hardest years of my life, however the experience was invaluable in teaching me patience and understanding.

[freeatlast]

happy V= day Carp!!! I love you too.

Now let's all sing the Barney song. ;-)

[MrsMcD]

"How do I love thee? Let me count the ways."

The author of this statement obviously captured the deeper thought that there is more to love than just feelings and emotions.

I have maintained the same premise throughout the other thread(s) that there are forces that influence our relationships.

I believe the apostolic culture has a tremendous influence in terms of directing, and creating an environment or set of rules regarding how to operate within the culture.

There are some pastors who do not have a genuine family first mentality. They believe that the church is somehow grafted into the family unit, therefore, by virtue of saying family first he is saying church family first.

This of course is an attempt to resurrect the s--y discussion.

For the sake of RRFord, I have asked no questions. :D


Carp,

I painfully have to agree with you on the bolded part. My growing up in a pastor's home made me always feel that church family was first and the truth is--they were. But, I am soooo over that!

[Mr. Steinway]

Carp,

I painfully have to agree with you on the bolded part. My growing up in a pastor's home made me always feel that church family was first and the truth is--they were. But, I am soooo over that!

I had a family therapist tell me that most Pastor's families are disfunctional.

It's a no win situation for the pastor. If he gives too much attention to his own family, church members will call him selfish. Most of the time the pastor puts the church first before his own family.

That was the case at our house growing up. I have now gotten over it, but I had held feelings against my dad (not my mom!) for a few years after I left home!

[rgcraig]

I had a family therapist tell me that most Pastor's families are disfunctional.

It's a no win situation for the pastor. If he gives too much attention to his own family, church members will call him selfish. Most of the time the pastor puts the church first before his own family.

That was the case at our house growing up. I have now gotten over it, but I had held feelings against my dad (not my mom!) for a few years after I left home!
I know many that will not agree with this, but I have seen it over and over again.

I do believe more recently though things have changed from when we were growing up in UPC. Or at least I want to think so.

[rrford]

WHat was my post? Chopped liver?

It seems some are only seeing the perspective that Carp puts forth. I do agree with what he is saying to a certain extent. But I also realize, as Renda is saying that there has been a shift in that mindset in recent years.

Let us not forget that unless one is called to Pastoral ministry they do not know the pressures associated with it. Even if it were your father that was the Pastor you really, really do not know the full breadth and depth of the struggle to look for balance.

Now, a request: This year at a Conference I have been asked to teach a session called "Balancing Home and Ministry." I taught the same session last year and it was well received. I would be interested in any thoughtful input you might have of things that need to be mentioned.

[MrsMcD]

I know many that will not agree with this, but I have seen it over and over again.

I do believe more recently though things have changed from when we were growing up in UPC. Or at least I want to think so.

I definitely believe that things have changed. My father has apologized and wishes he had differently. I also think the younger generation can learn from past mistakes. My husband nor I would ever put church people before our family.

[rgcraig]

rrford,

Your post was filet migon!

I LOVE the subject you are going to teach on - - teach on!!!!! I'm sure you have all the material you need to teach it, but I will think on it. If I have a nugget to share, I'll post here.

[MrsMcD]

WHat was my post? Chopped liver?

It seems some are only seeing the perspective that Carp puts forth. I do agree with what he is saying to a certain extent. But I also realize, as Renda is saying that there has been a shift in that mindset in recent years.

Let us not forget that unless one is called to Pastoral ministry they do not know the pressures associated with it. Even if it were your father that was the Pastor you really, really do not know the full breadth and depth of the struggle to look for balance.

Now, a request: This year at a Conference I have been asked to teach a session called "Balancing Home and Ministry." I taught the same session last year and it was well received. I would be interested in any thoughtful input you might have of things that need to be mentioned.


Sorry, I only read the first post and responded. As I stated in another post, I do believe some pastors and ministers have made an effort to do things differently. :-)

[Rhoni]

I had a family therapist tell me that most Pastor's families are disfunctional.

It's a no win situation for the pastor. If he gives too much attention to his own family, church members will call him selfish. Most of the time the pastor puts the church first before his own family.

That was the case at our house growing up. I have now gotten over it, but I had held feelings against my dad (not my mom!) for a few years after I left home!

Pianaoman, I am not sure if you took the personal relationship class that many of us did, but it was obvious to me back then that most of the preacher's kids were from very dysfunctional families. I remember talking with one, in a one on one session about their home. This person said that their ministry parents always put the saints and the saints kids in front of them. It was obvious when the parents put money into the school to buy their children out of trouble.

Blessings, Rhoni

[MrsMcD]

I never thought I was from a dysfunctional family. We were different but I never felt that we were dysfunctional. I saw myself as being the same as any other church kid. Then again, I guess we are all dysfunctional to some extent.

[Rhoni]

I never thought I was from a dysfunctional family. We were different but I never felt that we were dysfunctional. I saw myself as being the same as any other church kid. Then again, I guess we are all dysfunctional to some extent.


Not all of us, but many of us...I include myself in the dysfunctional side. My father was an alcoholic and my mother a religious fanatic. I could have chosen one or the other...I chose balance;)!

Blessings, Rhoni

[The Kid]

WHat was my post? Chopped liver?

It seems some are only seeing the perspective that Carp puts forth. I do agree with what he is saying to a certain extent. But I also realize, as Renda is saying that there has been a shift in that mindset in recent years.

Let us not forget that unless one is called to Pastoral ministry they do not know the pressures associated with it. Even if it were your father that was the Pastor you really, really do not know the full breadth and depth of the struggle to look for balance.

Now, a request: This year at a Conference I have been asked to teach a session called "Balancing Home and Ministry." I taught the same session last year and it was well received. I would be interested in any thoughtful input you might have of things that need to be mentioned.

Too bad you don't have the thread available from NFCF. There is enough material there to teach a week long conference.

I know you say there is a paradigm shift, but I would estimate that it is more of a grassroots effort. Examine any organization by researching their literature (publications, sermons, minutes, etc.). I do not believe that the paradigm shift has or will occur throughout the organization, otherwise you would see that same change within the culture, and changing a culture is as difficult as changing their nature.

Individual effort? Maybe. Organizational paradigm shift? Unh-unh. Someone spoke the difficulty of getting a huge ship turned around and around and around and around...

[The Kid]

:kiss :musicnotes
Love and marriage, love and marriage
Go together like a horse and carriage
This I tell you brother
You cant have one without the other

Love and marriage, love and marriage
Its an institute you cant disparage
Ask the local gentry
And they will say its elementary

Try, try, try to separate them
Its an illusion
Try, try, try, and you will only come
To this conclusion

Love and marriage, love and marriage
Go together like a horse and carriage
Dad was told by mother
You cant have one without the other

:happydance

[timlan2057]

As usual, Carpenter's point and thrust was misunderstood.

When he spoke of "family before church", he was not speaking of the ho-hum topic of whether ministers work too hard to the detriment of their family life.

He was speaking of the cultic tendency that church dogma and pastor's orders come before family life and many times to the detriment of the home.

He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Roy Cogdill - a Church of Christ preacher - had a very interesting study on three divine institutions - the church, the home and the government.

One does not interfere to the detriment of the other. For example, the church has no authority to interfere with the "divine" authority of a church member being rightfully ticketed for speeding.

I don't have the time and I'm tired of the arguments.

On NFCF, I at least knew there were some thoughtful people lurking. I don't know about here so I hesitate spending the time and effort discussing this stuff.

But ... do the math on the church and home.

Cogdill's study was a good one. The thrust of it was using it in debate on what the church had authority to do and not do; what business it had getting into the orphanage business and such.

His applications were wrong, I think, but his root study was biblical and a good one.

It's one many pentecostals could stand to read carefully.

[rgcraig]

Tim,

Your words are never wasted. Please post!

[Advocate]

In 1 Timothy 1:8, the Apostle Paul writes to Timothy to teach him principles that will be vital in his pastoring.

By this Paul instructs Timothy concerning his own family and others that he will influence.

He says "If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel".

Some have sought to skirt their own error by declaring that this refers only to monetary or carnal provision. This cannot help the case of the man who puts his natural family second to the church though. The term Paul chooses is 'pronoeo'. It refers to the taking of advance consideration for something, percieving, thinking and understanding the need, and by clear implication, making efforts to meet that need.

No where, no where at all, in the whole of scripture do we ever get a hint of men being released from the responsibility to their wives and families nor is the urgency of that need reduced. We can take confidence in the Roman Catholic doctrine of remaining unmarried sooner that we find an excuse for a man putting his family second to the church.

This is a strong condemnation. Those who fail in this priority have "denied the faith". You cannot be Apostolic and neglect your family. The rest of your profession will not be substantiated and is not authorized by the Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles, if you do not 'provide' for your own.

Is your family made of steel and glass, and have no emotional, or personal need of care and affection and attention? Do they need no time? Hopefully you havent consigned your kids to the watching of videos, the playing of video games or the driving of fast cars, just to be free of this responsibility.

They NEED you. And you will be an INFIDEL and worse if you neglect them to do church work. And as a side benefit you will loose your children and they may very well be lost themselves.

Did I get anyone's attention yet?

So, celebrate "Valentine's Day" however you want, but make it a 365 day per year sentiment.

[Margies3]

I think Tim nailed it when he said the original post was about pastor's teaching that the church family came first above your own natural family (did I interpret that correctly, Tim?)

I also, even from an outsiders view, can see where so many of the others are coming from. I was not raised in a pastor's home, or even in a Christian home. But because my parents were not in the church, often the pastor thought that I should follow the same rules as his children were required, while others who had parents in the church lived a different set of standards. But while all this was going on, I was observing and unfortunately, I have to say that in many of the cases (NOT all cases, just many), I did see that the pastor would put the church ahead of his own family over and over. Or the pastor would leave the wife to raise the children and take care of the home while he was taking care of the church family.

So here's where I merge the two thoughts:
If you as a pastor want your church to understand that they have a family and that their family must be first BEFORE the church, then you must set the example.

[The Kid]

As usual, Carpenter's point and thrust was misunderstood.

When he spoke of "family before church", he was not speaking of the ho-hum topic of whether ministers work too hard to the detriment of their family life.

He was speaking of the cultic tendency that church dogma and pastor's orders come before family life and many times to the detriment of the home.

He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Roy Cogdill - a Church of Christ preacher - had a very interesting study on three divine institutions - the church, the home and the government.

One does not interfere to the detriment of the other. For example, the church has no authority to interfere with the "divine" authority of a church member being rightfully ticketed for speeding.

I don't have the time and I'm tired of the arguments.

On NFCF, I at least knew there were some thoughtful people lurking. I don't know about here so I hesitate spending the time and effort discussing this stuff.

But ... do the math on the church and home.

Cogdill's study was a good one. The thrust of it was using it in debate on what the church had authority to do and not do; what business it had getting into the orphanage business and such.

His applications were wrong, I think, but his root study was biblical and a good one.

It's one many pentecostals could stand to read carefully.

Tim you nailed it perfectly square, the head just below the surface!

I was afraid the direction was going toward pastoral familes.

I think the church has created a framework around families, more importantly around the marital relationship, of what is acceptable in terms of, not what goes on in the bedroom, but how women are treated, their position, how they are viewed, and limitations in most every other area.

Men aren't left out of the equasion, we are taught and conditioned (most of the time by suggestion and innuendo and not didactic by Rob Tripani) how to treat and regard our spouses in public.

With the Apostolic church it is ALL about public perception and it has influenced the way they have conditioned their folks to act and react.

Call it choice if you like, we are all conditioned by cultural factors, like it or not. I oppose this conditioning being associated to scriptural tennant when it is only a convenient behavior to culture the church.

[Rhoni]

I think Tim nailed it when he said the original post was about pastor's teaching that the church family came first above your own natural family (did I interpret that correctly, Tim?)

I also, even from an outsiders view, can see where so many of the others are coming from. I was not raised in a pastor's home, or even in a Christian home. But because my parents were not in the church, often the pastor thought that I should follow the same rules as his children were required, while others who had parents in the church lived a different set of standards. But while all this was going on, I was observing and unfortunately, I have to say that in many of the cases (NOT all cases, just many), I did see that the pastor would put the church ahead of his own family over and over. Or the pastor would leave the wife to raise the children and take care of the home while he was taking care of the church family.

So here's where I merge the two thoughts:
If you as a pastor want your church to understand that they have a family and that their family must be first BEFORE the church, then you must set the example.

:highfive Preach it sista...

BTW, I understood carp from the beginning.

Blessings, Rhoni

[The Kid]

So, celebrate "Valentine's Day" however you want, but make it a 365 day per year sentiment.

Great post, but this was the only part that applied really to the topic.

[MrsMcD]

So far, I haven't seen many threads, if any, stay on topic. :heeheehee

[The Kid]

So here's where I merge the two thoughts:
If you as a pastor want your church to understand that they have a family and that their family must be first BEFORE the church, then you must set the example.

This is not about pastors, but they are included in the mix because they are subject to the same cultural restraints and conditions as any other couple.

I have heard it taught for years and years that the church comes before family. If you have a sick kid, bring him to church and wrap him on the pew, he needs to be in church (coming for prayer notwithstanding), if you have family visiting from out of town, bring them to church, church supercedes school plays, recitals, etc., if you go on vacation, come back in time for you to come to church, if your family member is in the hospital, come to church. "Church should be at the center of your life."...I have heard that verbatim, and for years and years.

I was shocked when we went on vacation with my in-laws who are a UPC pastor and a UPC minister (and future pastor I hope), and they didn't even mention the fact that we were going to miss church! It wasn't the missing church part, it was taking 7 days out of the 365 days of church a pastor experiences to spend time with his family and not looking back.

I would say that my FIL is one of those individual cases who values family over the institution of church.

[The Kid]

So far, I haven't seen many threads, if any, stay on topic. :heeheehee

We will do our best for this one...it is too important.

[Advocate]

Carp: Thank you, and I think if you look a little more closely you will agree that Paul's doctrine concerning the family is really at the root of your concerns.

Errors in attitude towards the church that are taught by leadership are repeated in the people of the church. This results in widespread improper notions.

There may be some personal concerns beyond this being discussed. Paul would not have addressed these issues which are a matter of private prayer.

Do you believe that church distracts from home life and marriage relationships? There are men who resent the pastorate for this reason. It must be justified sometimes.

[MrsMcD]

We will do our best for this one...it is too important.

You are right!

[rrford]

Tim you nailed it perfectly square, the head just below the surface!

I was afraid the direction was going toward pastoral familes.

I think the church has created a framework around families, more importantly around the marital relationship, of what is acceptable in terms of, not what goes on in the bedroom, but how women are treated, their position, how they are viewed, and limitations in most every other area.

Men aren't left out of the equasion, we are taught and conditioned (most of the time by suggestion and innuendo and not didactic by Rob Tripani) how to treat and regard our spouses in public.

With the Apostolic church it is ALL about public perception and it has influenced the way they have conditioned their folks to act and react.

Call it choice if you like, we are all conditioned by cultural factors, like it or not. I oppose this conditioning being associated to scriptural tennant when it is only a convenient behavior to culture the church.

Not to question your intent too much, but I was the first one to mention pastor's families and you agreed rather quickly.

I do, however, understand that your assertion would have been in general as you were not raised in a Pastor's home.

Unfortunatley we are all preconditioned to respond based upon our perceptions. If your church environment were as you described then I can understand your assertions without much argument. But there are others who did not have the same church environment. Therefore, our conclusions are totally different. For instance, I have ben a part of 10 different churches and not one have them have espoused the view or cultural distinctive you are saying exists. Does that mean it does not exist? Not at all. We are well aware that it does.

For some this topic is valuable and full of insight. For others it is just another opportunity to criticize pastoral ministry. Which in it's own way is what the opening post was doing IMO. But then again, the pastoral ministry is not above question or criticism. And whether one agreees or not questions and criticisms can be offered in non-offensive ways, such as Carp did with the thread starter.

[rgcraig]

All I was saying was I was a wife.....I was second in our marriage because the church came first.

Just so happened he was a minister.

[rrford]

All I was saying was I was a wife.....I was second in our marriage because the church came first.

Just so happened he was a minister.

And within reason one could say if he had not been a minister you might still have been second. Some things supercede vocational decisions.

[rgcraig]

And within reason one could say if he had not been a minister you might still have been second. Some things supercede vocational decisions.

Exactly! So no one should be offended. Executive high achievers do the same thing to their families. Still wrong.

[The Kid]

Carp: Thank you, and I think if you look a little more closely you will agree that Paul's doctrine concerning the family is really at the root of your concerns.

Do you believe that church distracts from home life and marriage relationships? There are men who resent the pastorate for this reason. It must be justified sometimes.

No, I don't believe that church in and of itself distracts from homelife and marriage...in general. However, there is a culture alive and well in the Apostolic church, perpetuated by its leadership, that expects to be inserted into the family network, and this includes the pastor. The church should be a resource to families, not the other way around.

There is a paradox taking place in families because they are not sure who is their spiritual leader?

They THINK they know because everyone agrees, but who agrees with whom? Where are conflicts resolved, by whom and who has the authority to make a decision for the family? It is a rude awakening when folks are forced to discover their true allegience. Many men are not going to church today because of this very thing.

[The Kid]

Not to question your intent too much, but I was the first one to mention pastor's families and you agreed rather quickly.

I do, however, understand that your assertion would have been in general as you were not raised in a Pastor's home.

Unfortunatley we are all preconditioned to respond based upon our perceptions. If your church environment were as you described then I can understand your assertions without much argument. But there are others who did not have the same church environment. Therefore, our conclusions are totally different. For instance, I have ben a part of 10 different churches and not one have them have espoused the view or cultural distinctive you are saying exists. Does that mean it does not exist? Not at all. We are well aware that it does.

For some this topic is valuable and full of insight. For others it is just another opportunity to criticize pastoral ministry. Which in it's own way is what the opening post was doing IMO. But then again, the pastoral ministry is not above question or criticism. And whether one agreees or not questions and criticisms can be offered in non-offensive ways, such as Carp did with the thread starter.

You did mention pastors first, but you were in context, those others weren't.

I hate criticism of of pastoral ministries. This is not about that. It is about perspective and the culture the church is locked into. One single pastor is not to blame.

Who established the culture? Human nature in terms of preserving comfort zones, and that which works to perpetuate a movement.

You could say that to an extent Pastors are a victim.

[rgcraig]

So, are we still talking about hairspray?

[The Kid]

So, are we still talking about hairspray?

When it is dropped on the floor it goes bump!

:D

[Felicity]

All I was saying was I was a wife.....I was second in our marriage because the church came first.

Just so happened he was a minister.Before we married my husband made it clear that I would always come second. I understood that, accepted that, even appreciated and respected that because to me that was the correct order. God first. Me next.

Of course in our case the church and the call were personified in "God". I never ever resented the time he spent at the church or taking care of church business, ministry and all that was associated with that. This was my life. I married this. My desire was to do the will of God and I knew that marrying a man called to be a preacher ministry and all that entails would be my life.

Having said that I need to also say that we always took time for ourselves and our family. I never felt neglected or unimportant but looking back on 33 years of marriage and ministry from this vantage point I can see that the consecration I had made, the relationship I had with God and the desire I had to please God and people made things easy.

I never demanded a lot for myself and never put pressure on my husband to cease or desist from his "work" in order to cater to my whims. I was as sold out as he was. I never felt I had a "call" to ministry but now I'm beginning to see that perhaps I did have the call of God on my life but just didn't understand that that's what it was.

I don't know ..... :) .... it all seemed pretty simple for a long time really but I have to say the past several years in regard to pastoring, ministry and life have been pretty rocky and rough. Only God knows. :praying

[Ronzo]

Felicty,

I hope Dave knows what a blessing God provided to him in you.

I'm sure he does.... cuz I'm sure you remind him every chance you get.

:thwak




















:heeheehee

[Felicity]

Felicty,

I hope Dave knows what a blessing God provided to him in you.

I'm sure he does.... cuz I'm sure you remind him every chance you get.

:thwak

:heeheeheeWhatever. I'm not sure if you're serious or not but anyhow .......... :)

I was just sitting here reading through this thread and thinking "HUH?!" in response to some of these posts.

I know that my kids have never felt as if they were deprived or as if they suffered as a result of growing up in a ministry home. We've talked about it lots since they've grown up and they've told us in expressing their feelings that have no resentment toward ministry or toward their mom and dad as far as "ministry" is concerned.

We always told them how privileged they were to have the opportunities that came with being a part of a ministry home and family. Sure, there were negatives but there are ALWAYS negatives no matter what family you grow up in. Many REGULAR families are messed up and dysfunctional - certainly moreso than ministry families.

I think a LOT of this has to do with the attitude of the parents and how that is passed on to the kids! :nod If the parents have a bad attitude, very likely the kids will too. If the parents express a good attitude and are happy in what they're doing then the kids will pick up on that. I've seen the same thing on the mission field.

I know for sure that there are lots of ministry families who do not feel as if they suffered too much as a result of having a pastor for a dad. And I'm talking about those who grew up under the old mindset which to me is the right one ..... God first .... then family.

It was just never an issue in our home. We had issues for sure but "ministry" and the responsibilities that went with that was never the primary issue.

[Ronzo]

Whatever. I'm not sure if you're serious or now but anyhow .......... :)

I'm not serious about the constant reminding, but I am serious about the blessing.

[SDG]

nice recovery ... Ronzo.

[Felicity]

I'm not serious about the constant reminding, but I am serious about the blessing. :o

Well thanks, but ........ *shrug* ....... like I said the past several years have been extremely difficult ones. I'm not sure I want to go into that here and now. I haven't been involved much in church the past 3 years. I wanted and needed a complete break and NO responsibility and haven't had any much -- except of course the fact is that regardless of that there are still certain expectations when you're the wife of a pastor. It just goes with the territory.

My husband hasn't had what he had for 30 years basically - which was a wife working alongside him being involved and taking part. :o

That's all changing now though as I'm getting "back in the harness" :) again. It's time. It took a couple fairly forceful "pushes" .... but I guess they were necessary. God knew what I needed and I guess I needed them but ... and .... it is time.

[Ronzo]

Glad to hear it.

A man feels much better about what he's doing and life in general when his wife is with him on it, getting her hands dirty with him, so to speak.

That's not to say you didn't need or deserve a break though.

[Ronzo]

nice recovery ... Ronzo.
Hey... Felicity and I are old friends, bro.

She knows I mean her no harm.

[Felicity]

Glad to hear it.

A man feels much better about what he's doing and life in general when his wife is with him on it, getting her hands dirty with him, so to speak.

That's not to say you didn't need or deserve a break though.Oh my goodness. I needed it long before I finally took it. I had no choice but to keep doing and being even though I knew I was totally burnt out.

Uh oh ....... this is making me really emotional so I'm going to leave this for now.

Thanks bro. I appreciate you and always have! :highfive

[rgcraig]

Felicity,

I could say a lot here, but I believe you and I have already discussed most of it.

I'm very glad that you are getting involved in your ladies ministry - like you, I think it's time.

[SDG]

Just funnin ... Ronzo ... to use a Hostetlerism

[Ronzo]

Sorry Felicity. Didn't mean to get you worked up emotionally.

[Felicity]

Sorry Felicity. Didn't mean to get you worked up emotionally. Awww ... it wasn't you Ron. It's just thinking back about some things. It's history now but it was mighty hard going for several years and it took a toll.

But this is now and there is a future and God has good things in store so we put the past in the past but appreciate it for what it was and all the wonderful things that God has done and all that happened back down the road. I've had a fantastic life filled with blessing and excitement. It was certainly never boring at any point and that's for sure! :thumbsup

We learn from those past circumstances, situations and happenings that were difficult (or not) .... and if we keep a right attitude and keep our spirit right (and that can only be done with God's help) then we become stronger and better and even more useful for him and of better and greater service to our brother and our sister and to the kingdom of God.

We can all say amen to that I think .... I hope). :)

[SDG]

So may it be .. my sister. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[Felicity]

Felicity,

I could say a lot here, but I believe you and I have already discussed most of it.

I'm very glad that you are getting involved in your ladies ministry - like you, I think it's time.Womens ministry - yes. :)

Last night was the first meeting that I've overseen since we came here and it was powerful! Just amazing! :bliss

TB has also asked me to team teach with him on Wed. nites but I've passed on the request for now. Maybe later. I think I might enjoy that.

And I'm playing for the Wed. nite service as well. I help out with the Praise team on Sundays too so the level of involvement has certainly increased. We're really looking forward to what God is going to do here. The temperature is rising. :)

[rgcraig]

Womens ministry - yes. :)

Last night was the first meeting that I've overseen since we came here and it was powerful! Just amazing! :bliss

TB has also asked me to team teach with him on Wed. nites but I've passed on the request for now. Maybe later. I think I might enjoy that.

And I'm playing for the Wed. nite service as well. I help out with the Praise team on Sundays too so the level of involvement has certainly increased. We're really looking forward to what God is going to do here. The temperature is rising. :)
You'll be fine!

[The Kid]

Before we married my husband made it clear that I would always come second. I understood that, accepted that, even appreciated and respected that because to me that was the correct order. God first. Me next.



Felicity, I disagreed with you when you first made this statement a while back and I disagree with the concept here.

The Lord intends for husbands and wives to become one flesh. There is no first or second in the eyes of the Lord.

I cannot put the Lord first, if I put my wife second...my wife and I are the same in his eyes.

[Felicity]

Felicity, I disagreed with you when you first made this statement a while back and I disagree with the concept here.

The Lord intends for husbands and wives to become one flesh. There is no first or second in the eyes of the Lord.

I cannot put the Lord first, if I put my wife second...my wife and I are the same in his eyes.I know you disagree with me. I can handle that. It doesn't make one necessarily wrong or the other right or vice versa.

We're one flesh - sure - but God deals with us as individuals. He sees us as individuals. How He deals with my husband or what He deals with Him about might not be the same as He deals with me.

I believe there is first and second in the eyes of the Lord. He made the husband "head" and in that way (but not that way alone) He sees us as distinct and different and unique and individual.

[rgcraig]

Felicity, I disagreed with you when you first made this statement a while back and I disagree with the concept here.

The Lord intends for husbands and wives to become one flesh. There is no first or second in the eyes of the Lord.

I cannot put the Lord first, if I put my wife second...my wife and I are the same in his eyes.

I know...I cringed a bit when I read that, but I think I understand what he was trying to say. Just think it might have been presented a little better - imo.

Did he also mention that he understands that you are putting God first and him second? Just curious.

[Felicity]

I know...I cringed a bit when I read that, but I think I understand what he was trying to say. Just think it might have been presented a little better - imo.

Did he also mention that he understands that you are putting God first and him second? Just curious.You would cringe because the man who says he loves you tells you that God has to come ahead of you? Why? I don't get this.

[Felicity]

You would cringe because the man who says he loves you tells you that God has to come ahead of you? Why? I don't get this. Would it have been better to say I love you and I want you to know that I will always put you and what you want and think and how you feel ahead of what God wants?

[Ronzo]

You would cringe because the man who says he loves you tells you that God has to come ahead of you? Why? I don't get this.
I don't think I get it either.

[rgcraig]

You would cringe because the man who says he loves you tells you that God has to come ahead of you? Why? I don't get this.I guess you had to be there - lol!

The way you said it here sounds better than telling you that you have to be second in his life. Maybe it's just the wording.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm glad my wife loves me,boy I hate eating out of a can.

[SDG]

Scott ... Ramen noodles come in a bag.

[Ronzo]

Scott ... Ramen noodles come in a bag.
The next best thing to a can.

[Scott Hutchinson]

But I don't want to eat sardines everyday.I can't cook like Ronzo.

[rgcraig]

I know what I'd rather have heard:

I want you to understand that God will always be first in our lives. I know it means the same thing as you are saying, but it's about elevating God in "both of your lives" and not about making you second.

Does that make any sense?

[SDG]

Sorry Charlie.

[SDG]

I know what I'd rather have heard:

I want you to understand that God will always be first in our lives. I know it means the same thing as you are saying, but it's about elevating God in "both of your lives" and not about making you second.

Does that make any sense?

And the two shall become ONE

[Scott Hutchinson]

Yeah and when women get mad,two hands make one slap.Ouch a skillet just hit me.

[SDG]

submitting one to another ... as Christ did for his Bride ... His church ... unto death ....

We've been taught that we are working for Him .... and not with Him ...

[Scott Hutchinson]

submitting one to another ... as Christ did for his Bride ... His church ... unto death ....

We've been taught that we are working for Him .... and not with Him ...

I see you're hunting for sacred cows,again.

[SDG]

If Paul teaches us that there is a parallel between Christ and His Bride, and husband and wife ... when has My Lord put me second????

[Felicity]

I know what I'd rather have heard:

I want you to understand that God will always be first in our lives. I know it means the same thing as you are saying, but it's about elevating God in "both of your lives" and not about making you second.

Does that make any sense?LOL. I guess. :)

I wanted a man who would take the lead and be "first". I don't mind being second. I've always thought of my role and my position as "second" to my husband ..... under him but at the same time also beside him.

I understood what he meant and what he was saying. And I respected him for it. He didn't want a wife who would be bucking him and opposing him and preventing him from carrying out what he felt was the will of God. He wanted me to know up front that there would be sacrifice involved in ministry but that the will of God was paramount.

[Felicity]

If Paul teaches us that there is a parallel between Christ and His Bride, and husband and wife ... when has My Lord put me second???? Christ is head of the Bride and the Bride acquiesces to her Head. The Bride has to yield and submit to every word the Bridegroom has spoken.

[SDG]

LOL. I guess. :)

I wanted a man who would take the lead and be "first". I don't mind being second. I've always thought of my role and my position as "second" to my husband ..... under him but at the same time also beside him.

I understood what he meant and what he was saying. And I respected him for it. He didn't want a wife who would be bucking him and opposing him and preventing him from carrying out what he felt was the will of God. He wanted me to know up front that there would be sacrifice involved in ministry but that the will of God was paramount.

I love your spirit ... Felicity ... you are esteeming him as superior ... a biblical principle ... Our relationships would all benefit if we learned more self-denial ... both male and female.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Hey Daniel A.you gotta respect Felicity she uses the NIV.But I'm not trading my ESV for it.

[rgcraig]

LOL. I guess. :)

I wanted a man who would take the lead and be "first". I don't mind being second. I've always thought of my role and my position as "second" to my husband ..... under him but at the same time also beside him.

I understood what he meant and what he was saying. And I respected him for it. He didn't want a wife who would be bucking him and opposing him and preventing him from carrying out what he felt was the will of God. He wanted me to know up front that there would be sacrifice involved in ministry but that the will of God was paramount.

Being submissive to your husband doesn't make you second. I also believe the man should be submissive to God and the head of his home, but that doesn't make the wife second.

Guess it's just a matter of how you say it.

[Felicity]

Being submissive to your husband doesn't make you second. I also believe the man should be submissive to God and the head of his home, but that doesn't make the wife second.

Guess it's just a matter of how you say it.:)

Depends how you mean it. Not second as inferior. Not second in importance. He didn't mean it that way and I understood that. I understood exactly what he meant and wanted nothing different myself.

It was always really important to me that I never stand in the way of him doing what he felt God was asking or requiring or how He was leading. I always bowed to my husband's will in regards to the call of God as he bowed to God's will.

[Scott Hutchinson]

:)

Depends how you mean it. Not second as inferior. Not second in importance. He didn't mean it that way and I understood that. I understood exactly what he meant and wanted nothing different myself.

It was always really important to me that I never stand in the way of him doing what he felt God was asking or requiring or how He was leading. I always bowed to my husband's will in regards to the call of God as he bowed to God's will.

All of you preachers wives take note,I need to print this and give it to my wife as well.

[Felicity]

I love your spirit ... Felicity ... you are esteeming him as superior ... a biblical principle ... Our relationships would all benefit if we learned more self-denial ... both male and female. I feel he's superior to me in so many ways but he feels that I'm superior to him in some ways too. We both have our strengths and our weaknesses and for the most part we complement one another.

A wife can make or break her husband. She can be an asset or a hindrance. She can complement and bring strength to the relationship and to his ministry or she can tear down and be a source of distraction from what his calling is.

I don't see how a pastor's wife could ever be an asset by demanding a throne that isn't hers but is one that belongs to the King of kings, the Lord of lords and the One who her husband himself must submit to.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I feel he's superior to me in so many ways but he feels that I'm superior to him in some ways too. We both have our strengths and our weaknesses and for the most part we complement one another.

A wife can make or break her husband. She can be an asset or a hindrance. She can complement or a total embarassment to him.

I don't see how a pastor's wife could ever be an asset by demanding a throne that isn't hers but one that belongs to the King of kings, the Lord of lords and the One who her husband himself must submit to.

All women who are married to a preacher take notes,yall should heed this wise counsel.Alane come here and read this.

[Scott Hutchinson]

How blessed is Elder TB.?Boy Felicity ought to be lecturing the sisters.If all women thought like her.

[Felicity]

I'd like for TB to weigh in here but I don't know if he's going to or not. He could better explain maybe what he meant by what he said to me in the letter he wrote me way back when. :)

[Truly Blessed]

I think something is getting lost in the communication here. I never told my wife she would be second to me. What I said is that she would always be second to God. I was simply being up front about the call of God on my life and I had such a dramatic experience when I received my call to the ministry I felt like the Apostle Paul when he said in 1Cor.9:16, "...for I am compelled to preach the gospel. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel."At that point in my life I would have rather remained single than to marry someone who did not understand how I felt about the ministry.

When I said that my wife would be second to God, I was very certain that because I was putting God first, I could be confident He would bless me with a wife who would respect my calling and share in whatever challenges I would face in fulfilling that call. I am happy to report that He did that.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Now that I would like to read myself.BTW Bro.Spooner asked me about yall the other day.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I think something is getting lost in the communication here. I never told my wife she would be second to me. What I said is that she would always be second to God. I was simply being up front about the call of God on my life and I had such a dramatic experience when I received my call to the ministry I felt like the Apostle Paul when he said in 1Cor.9:16, "...for I am compelled to preach the gospel. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel."At that point in my life I would have rather remained single than to marry someone who did not understand how I felt about the ministry.

When I said that my wife would be second to God, I was very certain that because I was putting God first, I could be confident He would bless me with a wife who would respect my calling and share in whatever challenges I would face in fulfilling that call. I am happy to report that He did that.

Amen to this,how's the church doing my friend Elder TB.?

[Felicity]

WHat was my post? Chopped liver?

It seems some are only seeing the perspective that Carp puts forth. I do agree with what he is saying to a certain extent. But I also realize, as Renda is saying that there has been a shift in that mindset in recent years.

Let us not forget that unless one is called to Pastoral ministry they do not know the pressures associated with it. Even if it were your father that was the Pastor you really, really do not know the full breadth and depth of the struggle to look for balance.

Now, a request: This year at a Conference I have been asked to teach a session called "Balancing Home and Ministry." I taught the same session last year and it was well received. I would be interested in any thoughtful input you might have of things that need to be mentioned.I've always thought we did this well.

Balancing home and ministry was never an issue in our marriage at all. I've never felt that I or our children suffered in any way from my husband's involvement in ministry and he has been heavily involved occupying leadership positions at different levels and pastoring all at the same time. Ministry was and is our life. Simple as that. Yes, there has been personal sacrifice and huge cost, but there always is for those who are sold out to to the will and purpose of God.

[Felicity]

Now that I would like to read myself.BTW Bro.Spooner asked me about yall the other day.Please tell him we said hello and that I think of him often.

He should join up here. Maybe you could suggest it Scott!

[Truly Blessed]

I have ridden on both sides of the fence, but when all is said and done...it is family that you have when all the church family has forsaken you;)!

There is a separation between church and family. I have to admire Bro. Kershaw. A man came to visit the church who had previously been a member of Bro. Kershaw's church. He said something to the effect that he felt like Bro. Kershaw was his father. Bro. Kershaw said, " I don't think my children would accept that but I appreciate the compliment". He set a boundary. This is a good thing.

Blessings, RhoniIn my thinking there is a difference between God being first and the church being first. God is the Father of His children who make up my church congregation, not me.I am a shepherd under the Chief Shepherd to whom He has entrusted their care, but I can never be their father.

I am responsible for being a father to my own children, not to a congregation. It is sad to witness pastors who have more time for and expend more energy on meeting the needs of their church family than they do for their own family.

[Felicity]

"How do I love thee? Let me count the ways."

The author of this statement obviously captured the deeper thought that there is more to love than just feelings and emotions.

I have maintained the same premise throughout the other thread(s) that there are forces that influence our relationships.

I believe the apostolic culture has a tremendous influence in terms of directing, and creating an environment or set of rules regarding how to operate within the culture.

There are some pastors who do not have a genuine family first mentality. They believe that the church is somehow grafted into the family unit, therefore, by virtue of saying family first he is saying church family first.
First of all I believe that Scripture and the concepts and principles, guidelines and counsel, instruction and commands given there ought to affect and influence the Christian family unit. In fact society in general ought to be founded and built and established upon the Word of God.

It's only natural that the apostolic culture is going to affect our home - it's only to be expected. The problem comes when pastors abuse the authority and position that is theirs and go beyond proper boundaries in exercising control over the members of their congregation.

I was fortunate enough to know nothing about this because our family was never subjected to pastoral abuse and/or control. I guess from what I've read on this forum we were very blessed in this regard.

I wasn't raised in a pastor's home but I was raised in a Christian home - a Oneness Apostolic home - but I don't think that Church in any way, shape, or form messed with our family life or disrupted it or my parents relationship with one another either.

I think God for the influence of the church in our family though and in our home. I thank God that I was raised to love and honour God and His Word and to love and respect my pastors as well but no way did church or any kind of "apostolic culture" rule our home. I was raised pretty normal in my opinion. I certainly don't feel as if I suffered in any way. I'm sure my sisters would say the same thing.

My husband has never reached beyond proper pastoral/church boundaries either to interfere in people's personal lives or their homes. I can't imagine any of the congregations we've pastored feeling as if we've been controlling or tried to exert any kind of pastoral control on a couple's marriage relationship, within the family or how they run their home unless counsel was sought and asked for.

[Felicity]

Hey... Felicity and I are old friends, bro.

She knows I mean her no harm.Careful with the "old" bit. And yes, you're relatively harmless.

Hehe :tease

[Felicity]

I think something is getting lost in the communication here. I never told my wife she would be second to me. What I said is that she would always be second to God. I was simply being up front about the call of God on my life and I had such a dramatic experience when I received my call to the ministry I felt like the Apostle Paul when he said in 1Cor.9:16, "...for I am compelled to preach the gospel. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel."At that point in my life I would have rather remained single than to marry someone who did not understand how I felt about the ministry.

When I said that my wife would be second to God, I was very certain that because I was putting God first, I could be confident He would bless me with a wife who would respect my calling and share in whatever challenges I would face in fulfilling that call. I am happy to report that He did that. :ty

[rgcraig]

I think something is getting lost in the communication here. I never told my wife she would be second to me. What I said is that she would always be second to God. I was simply being up front about the call of God on my life and I had such a dramatic experience when I received my call to the ministry I felt like the Apostle Paul when he said in 1Cor.9:16, "...for I am compelled to preach the gospel. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel."At that point in my life I would have rather remained single than to marry someone who did not understand how I felt about the ministry.

When I said that my wife would be second to God, I was very certain that because I was putting God first, I could be confident He would bless me with a wife who would respect my calling and share in whatever challenges I would face in fulfilling that call. I am happy to report that He did that.


In my thinking there is a difference between God being first and the church being first. God is the Father of His children who make up my church congregation, not me.I am a shepherd under the Chief Shepherd to whom He has entrusted their care, but I can never be their father.

I am responsible for being a father to my own children, not to a congregation. It is sad to witness pastors who have more time for and expend more energy on meeting the needs of their church family than they do for their own family.Thanks for weighing in here......I knew we were meaning the same thing, just got a bit hung up on the wording of it.

[Rhoni]

In my thinking there is a difference between God being first and the church being first. God is the Father of His children who make up my church congregation, not me.I am a shepherd under the Chief Shepherd to whom He has entrusted their care, but I can never be their father.

I am responsible for being a father to my own children, not to a congregation. It is sad to witness pastors who have more time for and expend more energy on meeting the needs of their church family than they do for their own family.

TB,

This is good and this is right! You will reap the rewards both in your family, and in your church! The greatest thing a Pastor can do is model the Biblical role of Husband & wife, family, and relationship to God. You have this covered.:highfive

In Respectful admiration, Rhoni

[rgcraig]

I love all you AFF posters (well, most of you)......naw, I love everyone and so happy we're all together!

I'm feeling the love today!!!!

[Ferd]

did this ever actually get posted:

How Do I Love Thee? (Sonnet 43)
by Elizabeth Barrett Browning


How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of being and ideal grace.
I love thee to the level of every day's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for right.
I love thee purely, as they turn from praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints. I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life; and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.

[rgcraig]

Thanks Ferd....gotta love Browning.

[Ferd]

Shall I compare thee to a summers day
Sonnet 18
William Shakespeare

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate.
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date.
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance, or nature's changing course untrimmed.
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st;
Nor shall death brag thou wand'rest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st,
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

[Ferd]

and one of the all time best

THE PASSIONATE SHEPHERD TO HIS LOVE.
Sir Christopher Marlowe


OME live with me, and be my love;
And we will all the pleasures prove
That hills and valleys, dales and fields,
Woods, or steepy mountain yields.

And we will sit upon the rocks,
Seeing the shepherds feed their flocks
By shallow rivers, to whose falls
Melodious birds sing madrigals.

And I will make thee beds of roses
And a thousand fragrant posies;
A cap of flowers, and a kirtle
Embroidered all with leaves of myrtle;

A gown made of the finest wool
Which from our pretty lambs we pull;
Fair-lined slippers for the cold,
With buckles of the purest gold;

A belt of straw and ivy-buds,
With coral clasps and amber-studs:
And if these pleasures may thee move,
Come live with me, and be my love.

The shepherd-swains shall dance and sing
For thy delight each May-morning:
If these delights thy mind may move,
Then live with me and be my love.

[rgcraig]

Oh the culture today......I love it!

Thanks Ferd!

[rgcraig]

Dear children, let's not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions.

1 John 3:18, NLT

[Ron]

**Somebody To Love*************
Can anybody find me somebody to love?
Each morning I get up I die a little
Can barely stand on my feet
Take a look in the mirror and cry
Lord what you're doing to me
I have spent all my years in believing you
But I just can't get no relief,
Lord!
Somebody, somebody
Can anybody find me somebody to love?

I work hard every day of my life
I work till I ache my bones
At the end I take home my hard earned pay all on my own -
I get down on my knees
And I start to pray
Till the tears run down from my eyes
Lord - somebody - somebody
Can anybody find me - somebody to love?

(He works hard)

Everyday - I try and I try and I try -
But everybody wants to put me down
They say I'm goin' crazy
They say I got a lot of water in my brain
Got no common sense
I got nobody left to believe
Yeah - yeah yeah yeah

Oh Lord
Somebody - somebody
Can anybody find me somebody to love?

Got no feel, I got no rhythm
I just keep losing my beat
I'm ok, I'm alright
Ain't gonna face no defeat
I just gotta get out of this prison cell
Someday I'm gonna be free, Lord!

Find me somebody to love
Can anybody find me somebody to love?

This is an old song, but in it is the heart cry of one not only wanting to love someone, but to be loved in return.

Having grown up in a dysfunctional family I can identify here.
The key is first recognizing that God loves us unconditionally.
The second is realizing that to get love, you have to give it away

God's word is full of paradoxes of how his Kingdom operates.
Save your life, you will lose it.

But one interesting thing is you can not love others, unless you first love yourself!:jaw

In Matthew 22

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Ephesians 4

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

So we need to love ourselves first.

I spoke on this on Sunday "Loving The Forgotten"
About loving ourselves as God would have us to do so we can the love others.

In I John

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

How can we not love ourselves if God loves us-we need to love ourselves!

Loving you all from someone who has learned to love himself!

Ron:hypercoffee

[The Kid]

LOL. I guess. :)

I wanted a man who would take the lead and be "first". I don't mind being second. I've always thought of my role and my position as "second" to my husband ..... under him but at the same time also beside him.

I understood what he meant and what he was saying. And I respected him for it. He didn't want a wife who would be bucking him and opposing him and preventing him from carrying out what he felt was the will of God. He wanted me to know up front that there would be sacrifice involved in ministry but that the will of God was paramount.

Felicity, this is somewhat what I was trying to characterize in terms of the family not having the correct position in the church (DO NOT read...in a Pastor's home).

I think in a general sense, all pastors believe that nothing should stand in the way of the ministry and their calling. I have heard some ministers say that they told their kids when they were small that they prayed for God to "take them" if they ever became a hindrance to the ministry.

Carry this over to the pastor's perspective of what he thinks is the mission of the church? To ultimately win the lost at all cost? Some pastors have this mentality, right or wrong. Other pastors maybe have fewer people, but he feels his calling to win the lost then to keep them won, and this includes the strength and growth of the family.

I believe that families in the second scenario have a stronger walk with God and are stronger knit.

[The Kid]

Felicity, this is somewhat what I was trying to characterize in terms of the family not having the correct position in the church (DO NOT read...in a Pastor's home).

I think in a general sense, all pastors believe that nothing should stand in the way of the ministry and their calling. I have heard some ministers say that they told their kids when they were small that they prayed for God to "take them" if they ever became a hindrance to the ministry.

Carry this over to the pastor's perspective of what he thinks is the mission of the church? To ultimately win the lost at all cost? Some pastors have this mentality, right or wrong. Other pastors maybe have fewer people, but he feels his calling to win the lost then to keep them won, and this includes the strength and growth of the family.

I believe that families in the second scenario have a stronger walk with God and are stronger knit.

Felicity? Are you dere?

:D

[ForeverBlessed]

Just read through this thread... had a few things to say.

I think every family has some disfunction to it.. :tease Just some more than others.

Never been a preacher's wife.. but was raised in the ministry.. In all my years as a Preacher's kid, my dad always put his family first.. not before God... God was on the inside that enabled him to be the wonderful husband and father and even pastor that he was. He loved the church, gave his life to the leadership of that congregation, but we were special as his family...and we all knew it. We were kept involved in most everything and we loved our life.

As for attending church while on vacation? Never done that until I was grown with my own family... I was visiting friends. When we were on vacation as a family growing up... God went with us as did personal devotion.... but not the church.

Since my father's death I have heard those who have said things about my dad being too lenient on his kids... or other comments that really shouldn't even been discussed in the first place. You know, my dad knew the faults of his kids.. but he loved them still, (as he should) and he defended them until the day he died. I remember him once telling a "saint" just what they could do with their tattleing (on me)...his bottom lip quivering the whole time, which was the big sign he was controlling his anger. He came home and in the privacy of our home corrected my wrong... however, to the saint, it might have looked liked he never did anything. He was just kind enough to deal with his family the way that he thought was right.

It is a wonderful feeling to know that you had the protection of a father... or head of a family. He was there not so much to defend the wrongs, but defend his family. We were not on display for people to pick apart although just as with any church, the picking took place... but at least we knew with our dad... family was first. His awesome reverence and love for God and his family has put a desire in my heart to follow in his footsteps. If we lose family, just what do we have?

Our family might have its disfunction.. but we are all serving God today.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Yeah my family has some disfunction in it,cause I'm in it.

[Felicity]

Felicity? Are you dere?

:DYes, I am and I'll revisit this later. Started last evening but got distracted.

I've already had quite a lot to say, and I thought you'd be ready to pound me as a result of taking the discussion a little off course. :D
I think it's been good discussion anyhow.

I've been thinking of biblical examples in regard to ministry and family in both Old and New Testaments and how the Jewish culture and teaching and apostolic teaching affected that.

What was Jesus teaching and attitude?

[The Kid]

Yes, I am and I'll revisit this later. Started last evening but got distracted.

I've already had quite a lot to say, and I thought you'd be ready to pound me as a result of taking the discussion a little off course. :D
I think it's been good discussion anyhow.

I've been thinking of biblical examples in regard to ministry and family in both Old and New Testaments and how the Jewish culture and teaching and apostolic teaching affected that.

What was Jesus teaching and attitude?

I look forward to what you have to say, but I would ask that we not get into a discussion of how a pastor rules his home, the results of such, etc.

Discussions like that cause more to speculate than anything else, because the majority of us cannot confirm or deny what goes on/went on in those situations. I hate it as well when folks judge PKs based on the decisions of their father, and really it is a topic for another thread.

This is all about families and relationships in general...but then again, all of us are in control of this thread, right? :D

[rgcraig]

I just haven't found anything about hairspray yet!

[The Kid]

I just haven't found anything about hairspray yet!

Hairspray...makeup...deoderant...gel...perms...col oring...perfume...fancy clothing...it is ALL the exact same thing to me...it is all to enhance the sex appeal...not that I am complaining or believe that there anything is wrong with that!

[rrford]

Hairspray...makeup...deoderant...gel...perms...col oring...perfume...fancy clothing...it is ALL the exact same thing to me...it is all to enhance the sex appeal...not that I am complaining or believe that there anything is wrong with that!

Carp,

In another time and place if someone else were to make the statement you did in the manner which you did I have to believe you would quickly take issue with them.

There is no day and no way that I wear deodorant for sex-appeal. How about just because I don't want ot smell offensive?

[rgcraig]

Carp,

In another time and place if someone else were to make the statement you did in the manner which you did I have to believe you would quickly take issue with them.

There is no day and no way that I wear deodorant for sex-appeal. How about just because I don't want ot smell offensive?

But....not smelling bad does make you more appealing.

[Felicity]

I look forward to what you have to say, but I would ask that we not get into a discussion of how a pastor rules his home, the results of such, etc.

Discussions like that cause more to speculate than anything else, because the majority of us cannot confirm or deny what goes on/went on in those situations. I hate it as well when folks judge PKs based on the decisions of their father, and really it is a topic for another thread.

This is all about families and relationships in general...but then again, all of us are in control of this thread, right? :D1. In regards to what I will and won't address re your request I'll not make promises I can't promise I can keep. :tease

2. The thread belongs to "us" .... we the posters. Yes! :thumbsup

[The Kid]

Carp,

In another time and place if someone else were to make the statement you did in the manner which you did I have to believe you would quickly take issue with them.

There is no day and no way that I wear deodorant for sex-appeal. How about just because I don't want ot smell offensive?

LOL!!! :killinme :killinme :killinme

Sure in another time and place, however when I think of other stuff I used to do and say and how I used to treat folks, it breaks my heart quite literally, so those days are pretty much gone and forgotten.

[The Kid]

1. In regards to what I will and won't address re your request I'll not make promises I can't promise I can keep. :tease

2. The thread belongs to "us" .... we the posters. Yes! :thumbsup

It is always difficult asking folks to stay on topic, I know, I have hijacked quite a few threads along my way to killing them altogether. :D

Like I had mentioned before, I believe this thread is important enough to keep it on the rails.

[Jekyll]

It is always difficult asking folks to stay on topic, I know, I have hijacked quite a few threads along my way to killing them altogether. :D

Like I had mentioned before, I believe this thread is important enough to keep it on the rails.
Yeah, but you know women, when it comes to love, they like to wander through the whole forest, then get to the other side...:heeheehee

[The Kid]

Yeah, but you know women, when it comes to love, they like to wander through the whole forest, then get to the other side...:heeheehee

Yea! If a woman askes every single tree a question, and there is no man present, does he still get a headache?

:D

[rrford]

LOL!!! :killinme :killinme :killinme

Sure in another time and place, however when I think of other stuff I used to do and say and how I used to treat folks, it breaks my heart quite literally, so those days are pretty much gone and forgotten.

I think you missed my point. If a dyed in the wool UPC person made such a blanket statement that was as inane as this one you would immediately pounce. :killinme

[The Kid]

I think you missed my point. If a dyed in the wool UPC person made such a blanket statement that was as inane as this one you would immediately pounce. :killinme

Oh, sorry. Let's give it a shot...ya know...to see what happens... :D

[rrford]

Yea! If a woman askes every single tree a question, and there is no man present, does he still get a headache?

:D

Probably not. But a lot of trees start wishing a man was present.

[rrford]

Oh, sorry. Let's give it a shot...ya know...to see what happens... :D

Hey, give it time. As sure as the sun comes up in the morning....

[Felicity]

Quick thought here .....

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son. Why?

Jesus said .....

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

So who comes first? Family? Or God and His will?

[rrford]

Quick thought here .....

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son. Why?

Jesus said .....

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

So who comes first? Family? Or God and His will?

In salvation and discipleship God always comes first. In ministerial issues the family is to be considered first.

The illustration of Abraham was God's attempt to test the willingness of Abraham. I think we all know that God would never have allowed Abraham to offer Isaac. Too contrary to other scripture. I have heard it said that the Lord was wanting to see if Abraham was willing to do for his God what the world was willing to do for their gods.

The word hate in the passage from Luke means "to love less." When that is understood the verse makes perfect sense.

[Felicity]

In regard to whether the Church should be involved in the home? Yes, and no. Depends on what kind of involvement you're talking about.

Christ is the head of the man. Man is the head of the woman. Husbands are responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of their family but they also have a mandate from God to submit to the their spiritual authority.

If you keep everything in its proper order then there shouldn't be confusion and chaos, but that would be in a perfect world and neither the world or the church or the home or husbands and wives are perfect.

When wives trust their husbands and have confidence that they are submitted to God and His will and that he has their best interests at heart for the right reasons I think a wife will be fairly willing to follow his lead most of the time.

[Felicity]

In salvation and discipleship God always comes first. In ministerial issues the family is to be considered first.

The illustration of Abraham was God's attempt to test the willingness of Abraham. I think we all know that God would never have allowed Abraham to offer Isaac. Too contrary to other scripture. I have heard it said that the Lord was wanting to see if Abraham was willing to do for his God what the world was willing to do for their gods.

The word hate in the passage from Luke means "to love less." When that is understood the verse makes perfect sense.I totally agree that the family needs to be considered.

Lots could be said here.

[Truly Blessed]

I feel that God does intend that pastors have influence in the life of those families attending his church for the following reasons;

1) In the OT it is apparent that God gave very specific instructions to the spiritual leadership on how they should deal with many family related issues.

2) In the NT Paul in particular addressed various family related issues intended to strengthen the relationship between husband and wife as well as parents and children.

3) It seems obvious to me when I read the qualifications of an Elder or Deacon in 1Timothy 3 it was required that they manage their own family well and see that their children obey him having proper respect. Their wives also needed to be respectable women. If they couldn't manage their own household there was question as to whether they could take care of the family of God.

Although the pastor is not the father of his congregants, he is first, by example and secondly, through solid teaching on family matters, responsible for giving wise counsel and guidance to every family in his church. However, I think it is evident that the primary responsibility for the family was the head of the household itself, not a pastor.

[The Kid]

Quick thought here .....

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son. Why?

Jesus said .....

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

So who comes first? Family? Or God and His will?

Mat 19:5 & Ephesians 5
'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Felicity, here are my scriptures, with context and connection (among about 100 others).

Where is the preceptual and accompanying scripture to yours that would lend context to prove your point?

Methinks, you have used scripture out of context. None of us can become one of Jesus' diciples prior to his death.

[rrford]

Mat 19:5 & Ephesians 5
'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Felicity, here are my scriptures, with context and connection.

Where is the preceptual and accompanying scripture to yours that would lend context to prove your point?

Methinks, you have used scripture out of context. None of us can become one of Jesus' diciples prior to his death.

Can you clarify your intent here, please?

[Felicity]

I don't think I used it out of context. I just didn't provide scripture to provide balance.

I know that nothing much I say here is going to be acceptable to you or others so think it's best to bow out.

[The Kid]

In regard to whether the Church should be involved in the home? Yes, and no. Depends on what kind of involvement you're talking about.

Christ is the head of the man. Man is the head of the woman. Husbands are responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of their family but they also have a mandate from God to submit to the their spiritual authority.

If you keep everything in its proper order then there shouldn't be confusion and chaos, but that would be in a perfect world and neither the world or the church or the home or husbands and wives are perfect.

When wives trust their husbands and have confidence that they are submitted to God and His will and that he has their best interests at heart for the right reasons I think a wife will be fairly willing to follow his lead most of the time.


I love that statement, submitted to God.. I have been racking my brain to think of something that characterizes the proper position of a man as leader of his home.

Unfortunately, there are other forces at work that would like to be included in the God part, if you are really submitted to God, then you should be doing...

[rrford]

I don't think I used it out of context. I just didn't provide scripture to provide balance.

I know that nothing much I say here is going to be acceptable to you or others so think it's best to bow out.

Now don't go off in a huff. :tease

I wasn't even disagreeing with you.











Yet.:heeheehee

[Felicity]

All I know is a life of commitment to the will of God regardless of the sacrifice. It's the only way I know to live.

It's better I read and learn from the rest of you who can tell me how it ought to be done. ;)

[Felicity]

I love that statement, submitted to God.. I have been racking my brain to think of something that characterizes the proper position of a man as leader of his home.

Unfortunately, there are other forces at work that would like to be included in the God part, if you are really submitted to God, then you should be doing...Carp .....

If I understand it right your issue is that you have quit going to the church your wife is attending and you'd like her to quit going there too. You feel she is more submitted to the pastor than to her husband.

Your wife loves you. She also loves her church and pastor and is happy there.

Now what do you think is the best thing for her?

(If I've crossed any lines here please forgive me. I'll delete this post immediately if it's out of order.)

[Felicity]

I feel that God does intend that pastors have influence in the life of those families attending his church for the following reasons;

1) In the OT it is apparent that God gave very specific instructions to the spiritual leadership on how they should deal with many family related issues.

2) In the NT Paul in particular addressed various family related issues intended to strengthen the relationship between husband and wife as well as parents and children.

3) It seems obvious to me when I read the qualifications of an Elder or Deacon in 1Timothy 3 it was required that they manage their own family well and see that their children obey him having proper respect. Their wives also needed to be respectable women. If they couldn't manage their own household there was question as to whether they could take care of the family of God.

Although the pastor is not the father of his congregants, he is first, by example and secondly, through solid teaching on family matters, responsible for giving wise counsel and guidance to every family in his church. However, I think it is evident that the primary responsibility for the family was the head of the household itself, not a pastor. Agreed.

[The Kid]

Can you clarify your intent here, please?

I was saying that Jesus' comment in that scripture pertained to those who didn't know anything about Jesus in context with how they might become one of his diciples.

None of us can go back in time to that time and expect to be called a disciple.

It is blunt force trauma common sense...like saying we can't go back and experience the flood...for example.

That was what I believe the context of the scripture that Felicity provided.

[The Kid]

Carp .....

If I understand it right your issue is that you have quit going to the church your wife is attending and you'd like her to quit going there too. You feel she is more submitted to the pastor than to her husband.

Your wife loves you. She also loves her church and pastor and is happy there.

Now what do you think is the best thing for her?

(If I've crossed any lines here please forgive me. I'll delete this post immediately if it's out of order.)

No problem, however most of what you wrote above is incorrect. Also, I might say as well, again and again and again, that THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME.

I do not want to see her quit the church, I do not believe she is more submitted to her WONDERFUL PASTOR than me.

I will say however that just like thousands and thousands of UPC folks, the UPC is her culture, it has come to define her nature. Good, bad or indifferent. I have come to accept that, and my love for her transcends all that stuff.

(While I was waiting at a red light this morning by the church, I saw Brother * get out of his car and walk to the church doors to go in. I immediately prayed for him, prayed that he be protected and that the hand of God be upon him today).

If my wife were to come to me this minute and say to me, "you won, I am going to go and ___________" I would not accept that. It is not about me being the boss, and pressure from me for her to change is 0, nil, goose-egg.

AGAIN, it is not about an individual case(s) Felicity, this is about GENERAL PRINCIPALS, that by now you can see affect many many people on both sides of the issues, fences, and points. As I have said my material for this thread crosses over hundreds of conversations, and several several fellas in and out of the church.

When people agree with folks, there is a parallel experience there, that is why this discussion is so pertinent and relelvant.

[Jekyll]

Here we go...

I believe that when a couple gets married under the authority of God they have joined each other to Him in a life of submission and proper authority.

A pastor is a shepherd who is to help us keep our flesh under submission to God. His role, outside of spiritual matters is that of a check and balance. Our three branches of gov't cannot exist without one another. No matter how maverick anyone of the branches becomes, it is held in check by the other two or even one in some cases.

Of course, a carnal entity (created under God's influence, by the way) cannot be perfectly compared to the unity of God/Spouse/Spouse. Is a GODLY man supposed to be the head of the home? Of course. But there are times a man can lose his influence and if a Godly woman does not assert HER annointing a whole family (or country) can be lost, ref. Deborah/Barak.

[The Kid]

Here we go...

I believe that when a couple gets married under the authority of God they have joined each other to Him in a life of submission and proper authority.

A pastor is a shepherd who is to help us keep our flesh under submission to God. His role, outside of spiritual matters is that of a check and balance. Our three branches of gov't cannot exist without one another. No matter how maverick anyone of the branches becomes, it is held in check by the other two or even one in some cases.

Of course, a carnal entity (created under God's influence, by the way) cannot be perfectly compared to the unity of God/Spouse/Spouse. Is a GODLY man supposed to be the head of the home? Of course. But there are times a man can lose his influence and if a Godly woman does not assert HER annointing a whole family (or country) can be lost, ref. Deborah/Barak.

Awesome post!!! What would the pastor say being referred to as a check and balance?

I have to consider your statement about a pastor helping us keep our flesh under submission. It is almost too subjective to personal opinion.

BTW, Jekyl can attest to what I wrote in my post above...he may not agree, but he can at least say I am being honest.

[Jekyll]

Awesome post!!! What would the pastor say being referred to as a check and balance?

I have to consider your statement about a pastor helping us keep our flesh under submission. It is almost too subjective to personal opinion.

BTW, Jeckyl can attest to what I wrote in my post above...he may not agree, but he can at least say I am being honest.

Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost...

There is not a need for a physician lest one be sick...

You are dealing with immaturity here. If one sits in the house waiting for the pastor to tell him to brush his teeth and go to bed, yeah, that's silly. The closer a couple get to God and his path for their lives, the more the pastor gets to step away and see them grow. Mature christians graduate from the milk of the Word on to the meat of the Word. I would parallel this with pastoral ministry. Some folks can graduate from the milk of the ministry to the meat and not call the pastor once a day to see if they are in God's will.

When one steps out or even stretches the boundaries of the 3/4 way relationship...remember, the church is the BODY of Christ. No matter the gall and the bitter pill...I want to be HIS bride....

even as I sit here weeping...

I want to be His...and I wouldn't be if not for a church that I didn't even agree with 100%

you know how I felt that one time at Starbucks down here

[Felicity]

When he spoke of "family before church", he was not speaking of the ho-hum topic of whether ministers work too hard to the detriment of their family life.

He was speaking of the cultic tendency that church dogma and pastor's orders come before family life and many times to the detriment of the home. So how do you reconcile the teaching that we are to be subject to the authorities over us including spiritual authorities.

I know there are pastors who exert too much control over their congregations. I've never experienced it myself but I know that there are men who say "my way or the highway" and so some choose the highway.

We ourselves have counseled women who were receiving pressure and criticism from their husbands that they were spending too much time at church or involved in church activities to step back and give honour and respect to their husbands. We've also counseled men the same way -- to make sure that they were taking care of their families ahead of over-involvement in church.

As I've said before I was brought up under balanced pastors who didn't interfere in the personal lives of our family and didn't exert undue pressure or demands that created hardship for me personally or for my mom and dad. We lived normal lives.

And then it's all so subjective. Just where do you draw the lines? Scripture needs to be taught and scripture teaches that we're to subject ourselves first of all to God and then to those who are our authorities. There is responsibility that lies both on those who are the authority and those who are under authority .

[The Kid]

So how do you reconcile the teaching that we are to be subject to the authorities over us including spiritual authorities.

I know there are pastors who exert too much control over their congregations. I've never experienced it myself but I know that there are men who say "my way or the highway" and so some choose the highway.

We ourselves have counseled women who were receiving pressure and criticism from their husbands that they were spending too much time at church or involved in church activities to step back and give honour and respect to their husbands. We've also counseled men the same way -- to make sure that they were taking care of their families ahead of over-involvement in church.

As I've said before I was brought up under balanced pastors who didn't interfere in the personal lives of our family and didn't exert undue pressure or demands that created hardship for me personally or for my mom and dad. We lived normal lives.

And then it's all so subjective. Just where do you draw the lines? Scripture needs to be taught and scripture teaches that we're to subject ourselves first of all to God and then to those who are our authorities. There is responsibility that lies both on those who are the authority and those who are under authority .

Felicity, can you or anyone else describe to me the responsibility that a man has to the spiritual authority (pastor I assume correct?) and the woman's responsibility.

They have to be different right?

[The Kid]

Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost...

There is not a need for a physician lest one be sick...

You are dealing with immaturity here. If one sits in the house waiting for the pastor to tell him to brush his teeth and go to bed, yeah, that's silly. The closer a couple get to God and his path for their lives, the more the pastor gets to step away and see them grow. Mature christians graduate from the milk of the Word on to the meat of the Word. I would parallel this with pastoral ministry. Some folks can graduate from the milk of the ministry to the meat and not call the pastor once a day to see if they are in God's will.

When one steps out or even stretches the boundaries of the 3/4 way relationship...remember, the church is the BODY of Christ. No matter the gall and the bitter pill...I want to be HIS bride....

even as I sit here weeping...

I want to be His...and I wouldn't be if not for a church that I didn't even agree with 100%

you know how I felt that one time at Starbucks down here

Wow, now you have me getting all weepy...

Great post, dude, you are a wise young man.

[Felicity]

Felicity, can you or anyone else describe to me the responsibility that a man has to the spiritual authority (pastor I assume correct?) and the woman's responsibility.

They have to be different right?I know what Scripture teaches and that is that we are to be subject to the authorities that are over us.

Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This would include women too if we take the scripture seriously that there is no distinction between male and female in the kingdom of God ...... and yet women are taught to be subject to their husbands.

[rgcraig]

I know what Scripture teaches and that is that we are to be subject to the authorities that are over us.

Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This would include women too if we take the scripture seriously that there is no distinction between male and female in the kingdom of God ...... and yet women are taught to be subject to their husbands.

For discussion - the pastor requires something of a woman that her husband does not want his wife to do - - then who does she obey?

[rrford]

For discussion - the pastor requires something of a woman that her husband does not want his wife to do - - then who does she obey?

Does whether it is a salvation requirement matter?

[rgcraig]

Does whether it is a salvation requirement matter?

To me it would, but for sake of discussion, let's say no.

[rrford]

To me it would, but for sake of discussion, let's say no.

Then, IMO, there is little to discuss. She is under subjection to her husband.

[rgcraig]

Then, IMO, there is little to discuss. She is under subjection to her husband.

I agree.

Others?

[The Kid]

Does whether it is a salvation requirement matter?

There are lots and lots of salvation requirements are there not?

Aren't you kind of admitting that by saying A salvation requirement instead of THE...?

[Felicity]

There are lots and lots of salvation requirements are there not?

Aren't you kind of admitting that by saying A salvation requirement instead of THE...?See .... I just KNEW it couldn't be so simple. Hehe. :heeheehee

I was thinking earlier this evening that this is one of those discussions that's a little frustrating for me because there is no bottom line.

Then along comes RR and it seemed that he laid one down. But is it really that simple and straight forward?

:)

[josh]

I have very much enjoyed this thread...

Felicity, your view of things has been both enlightening and refreshing.

I have skipped the last few pages, so I'm not sure how relevant my statements will be to the thread, but I would like to comment on the submission issue.

When the issue is spiritual, the assumption of husband "headship" is that the husband is under spiritual submission to God's authority. If he is not submitted to God, I believe that he abdicates his right to headship. Regarding temporal matters, if he is pleased to dwell with his believing wife, she should submit to proper headship.

One thing that must always be considered...just as no pastor should abuse the place he has been given by God, neither should the husband. When he does so, the wife is free to submit to God rather than her husband. We should always obey God rather than man.

If the husband is right before God, then there is never a conundrum.

[Felicity]

I have very much enjoyed this thread...

Felicity, your view of things has been both enlightening and refreshing.

I have skipped the last few pages, so I'm not sure how relevant my statements will be to the thread, but I would like to comment on the submission issue.

When the issue is spiritual, the assumption of husband "headship" is that the husband is under spiritual submission to God's authority. If he is not submitted to God, I believe that he abdicates his right to headship. Regarding temporal matters, if he is pleased to dwell with his believing wife, she should submit to proper headship.

One thing that must always be considered...just as no pastor should abuse the place he has been given by God, neither should the husband. When he does so, the wife is free to submit to God rather than her husband. We should always obey God rather than man.

If the husband is right before God, then there is never a conundrum.Josh.....

I'm SO glad you chimed in here with an awesome post. You said exactly what I was thinking only you communicated the points better than I would have.

Thank you thank you thank you! Your post has encouraged me and reassured me that I'm not totally off the wall in how I feel about some of all this. I could hug you right about now! LOL!

(It would be okay 'cause I'm old enough to be your mom just about I think.) Hehe. ;) :D

[rrford]

There are lots and lots of salvation requirements are there not?

Aren't you kind of admitting that by saying A salvation requirement instead of THE...?

So are you saying there is more than one or only one? I am a little confused here.

[josh]

"How do I love thee? Let me count the ways."

The author of this statement obviously captured the deeper thought that there is more to love than just feelings and emotions.

I have maintained the same premise throughout the other thread(s) that there are forces that influence our relationships.

I believe the apostolic culture has a tremendous influence in terms of directing, and creating an environment or set of rules regarding how to operate within the culture.

There are some pastors who do not have a genuine family first mentality. They believe that the church is somehow grafted into the family unit, therefore, by virtue of saying family first he is saying church family first.

This of course is an attempt to resurrect the s--y discussion.

For the sake of RRFord, I have asked no questions. :D

Carp, for the sake of your point here I think the distinction must be made between "church" as the Kingdom of God and "church" as functions, activities, and other such things.

When one speaks of THE church we cannot really put family first. Jesus was very clear that His kingdom would go so far as to divide families...but His kingdom must be sought FIRST.

When we put "Martha" type servitude above all else, then we are wrong. The "Martha" side of church can indeed dominate us. The Sabbath was made for man...not vice versa. I have not always been successful in guarding against the tyranny of the Martha Syndrome.

Thought provoking thread...

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Thought provoking thread...

Except for it's racy title, the original had many, many, many thoughtful tangents.

[Felicity]

Carp, for the sake of your point here I think the distinction must be made between "church" as the Kingdom of God and "church" as functions, activities, and other such things.

When one speaks of THE church we cannot really put family first. Jesus was very clear that His kingdom would go so far as to divide families...but His kingdom must be sought FIRST.

When we put "Martha" type servitude above all else, then we are wrong. The "Martha" side of church can indeed dominate us. The Sabbath was made for man...not vice versa. I have not always been successful in guarding against the tyranny of the Martha Syndrome.

Thought provoking thread...Once again Josh ....... :ty

[Felicity]

By the way ...... it's great to see you posting on this board Josh. You are one of my all time favorite posters. I mean that sincerely.

God bless you!

[josh]

By the way ...... it's great to see you posting on this board Josh. You are one of my all time favorite posters. I mean that sincerely.

God bless you!

I sincerely appreciate your compliment. I don't care much for the rough and tumble of forums, but when I read thought-provoking material I do like to throw in a few comments.

[The Kid]

I have very much enjoyed this thread...

Felicity, your view of things has been both enlightening and refreshing.

I have skipped the last few pages, so I'm not sure how relevant my statements will be to the thread, but I would like to comment on the submission issue.

When the issue is spiritual, the assumption of husband "headship" is that the husband is under spiritual submission to God's authority. If he is not submitted to God, I believe that he abdicates his right to headship. Regarding temporal matters, if he is pleased to dwell with his believing wife, she should submit to proper headship.

One thing that must always be considered...just as no pastor should abuse the place he has been given by God, neither should the husband. When he does so, the wife is free to submit to God rather than her husband. We should always obey God rather than man.

If the husband is right before God, then there is never a conundrum.

Great post Josh, I agree. I am not sure what you meant, though regarding the temporal matters..."...if he is pleased to dwell with his believing wife, she should submit to proper headship." Not sure I get that statement.

[The Kid]

So are you saying there is more than one or only one? I am a little confused here.

In my mind there is only one, however there is a laundry list of requirements that are preached on from week to week.

It is irrelevant to this thread, however many people can provide many responses to the question...

"You cannot be saved if you........"

"You must..........in order to be saved."

Some fella said on the forum somewhere that it takes an entire lifetime for the blood of Jesus to be applied that we might attain salvation when we die.

[The Kid]

Except for it's racy title, the original had many, many, many thoughtful tangents.

...cmon boom, this title is not racy.

[The Kid]

Carp, for the sake of your point here I think the distinction must be made between "church" as the Kingdom of God and "church" as functions, activities, and other such things.

When one speaks of THE church we cannot really put family first. Jesus was very clear that His kingdom would go so far as to divide families...but His kingdom must be sought FIRST.

When we put "Martha" type servitude above all else, then we are wrong. The "Martha" side of church can indeed dominate us. The Sabbath was made for man...not vice versa. I have not always been successful in guarding against the tyranny of the Martha Syndrome.

Thought provoking thread...

I completely agree, however it is not the fault of the family being subjected to the results or consequenses of individuals who cannot make that distinction, individuals the family (albeit individually) are required to be in subjection to. A man submitted to God and a man submitted to the pastor is not necessarily the same thing, right?

I believe that only sometimes from the outside looking in can you recognize that there is an imbalance of demanded committment.

[The Kid]

Regarding all this, I spoke to a friend of mine a while ago and he mentioned how that there were some vicious rumors being spread about his 13yr old daughter after youth retreat.

He was astonished to discover that someone very high up was perpetuating these rumors instead of sqelching gossip.

The wife and her family maintained allegience to those perpetuating these rumors and even worse, the higher ups feigned ignorance about the matter when approached.

So here this guy who has devoted hours upon hours of his time, effort and energy to the church is fighting a battle between doing what is right for his family, and some sort of demented allegience to the church...as though if they stand up for right, they will lose their social connection.

[MrsMcD]

Regarding all this, I spoke to a friend of mine a while ago and he mentioned how that there were some vicious rumors being spread about his 13yr old daughter after youth retreat.

He was astonished to discover that someone very high up was perpetuating these rumors instead of sqelching gossip.

The wife and her family maintained allegience to those perpetuating these rumors and even worse, the higher ups feigned ignorance about the matter when approached.

So here this guy who has devoted hours upon hours of his time, effort and energy to the church is fighting a battle between doing what is right for his family, and some sort of demented allegience to the church...as though if they stand up for right, they will lose their social connection.

This is so sad...

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Except for it's racy title, the original had many, many, many thoughtful tangents.

...cmon boom, this title is not racy.

Yoo-hoo Carp!
Look, I am on YOUR side here!

:highfive

[rrford]

In my mind there is only one, however there is a laundry list of requirements that are preached on from week to week.

It is irrelevant to this thread, however many people can provide many responses to the question...

"You cannot be saved if you........"

"You must..........in order to be saved."

Some fella said on the forum somewhere that it takes an entire lifetime for the blood of Jesus to be applied that we might attain salvation when we die.

Really? In your mind there is only ONE salvation requirement? Pray tell, what would that one be?

[ManOfWord]

If I could pray ONE prayer and know that God would answer it, it would be that God would grant to everyone that they would love Him with all their heart, soul, mind and strength.

If that were to happen, no one would be lost and everyone who did that would be saved. If people do that, everything else will take care of itself, including baptism and the rest. IMO anyway! (why do I wade into these?) :D

[rrford]

If I could pray ONE prayer and know that God would answer it, it would be that God would grant to everyone that they would love Him with all their heart, soul, mind and strength.

If that were to happen, no one would be lost and everyone who did that would be saved. If people do that, everything else will take care of itself, including baptism and the rest. IMO anyway! (why do I wade into these?) :D

Sure. But one prayer doesn't answer the question. :heeheehee

[The Kid]

Really? In your mind there is only ONE salvation requirement? Pray tell, what would that one be?

...are we disagreeing that there is one requirement, or are we disagreeing there is more than one?

I am confused.

I am trying to avoid the cultural elements that I have heard over they years that follow..."You can't be saved if/unless you..."

If more than one, how many more?

[rrford]

...are we disagreeing that there is one requirement, or are we disagreeing there is more than one?

I am confused.

I am trying to avoid the cultural elements that I have heard over they years that follow..."You can't be saved if/unless you..."

If more than one, how many more?


Hmmm, not sure what we are really discussing. But I do not view true "salvation" as being atributed to a singular action.

I was getting the impression that you were.

[Steve Epley]

I love my wife very dearly we are approaching our 32 anniversary I would hate to think I would have to ever live without her. But my first love was Jesus and His church.
It has been said JOY is this:
Jesus first
Others second
YOU last.

[The Kid]

I love my wife very dearly we are approaching our 32 anniversary I would hate to think I would have to ever live without her. But my first love was Jesus and His church.
It has been said JOY is this:
Jesus first
Others second
YOU last.

BAAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahah!!!!!!

:ursofunny :slaphappy :slaphappy :lol :toofunny :ursofunny :slaphappy

[josh]

Great post Josh, I agree. I am not sure what you meant, though regarding the temporal matters..."...if he is pleased to dwell with his believing wife, she should submit to proper headship." Not sure I get that statement.

I spoke of an unbelieving husband and a believing wife. Paul said that a spouse being an unbeliever was not grounds for divorce. However, I do believe that said husband is only the head of his wife in non-spiritual areas of life. When it comes to salvation and matters of the Kingdom of God he has no headship.

Actually, anytime that a husband opposes the known will of God for his wife's life he abdicates his headship in spiritual matters.

I have no problem admitting that a pastor's idea and God's idea are not always the same. However, when things are right a pastor is a gift to the church aiding them in finding the will of God and leading them in the ways of God. If such is not the case, then he is not a true pastor anyway.

[Jekyll]

I spoke of an unbelieving husband and a believing wife. Paul said that a spouse being an unbeliever was not grounds for divorce. However, I do believe that said husband is only the head of his wife in non-spiritual areas of life. When it comes to salvation and matters of the Kingdom of God he has no headship.

Actually, anytime that a husband opposes the known will of God for his wife's life he abdicates his headship in spiritual matters.

I have no problem admitting that a pastor's idea and God's idea are not always the same. However, when things are right a pastor is a gift to the church aiding them in finding the will of God and leading them in the ways of God. If such is not the case, then he is not a true pastor anyway.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

Where is this separation or distinction made??

[The Kid]

I spoke of an unbelieving husband and a believing wife. Paul said that a spouse being an unbeliever was not grounds for divorce. However, I do believe that said husband is only the head of his wife in non-spiritual areas of life. When it comes to salvation and matters of the Kingdom of God he has no headship.
Actually, anytime that a husband opposes the known will of God for his wife's life he abdicates his headship in spiritual matters.

I have no problem admitting that a pastor's idea and God's idea are not always the same. However, when things are right a pastor is a gift to the church aiding them in finding the will of God and leading them in the ways of God. If such is not the case, then he is not a true pastor anyway.

Ok, so you mentioned Paul and his guidance regarding divorce, where is your scriptural reference for that outrageous statement above?

If you believe this as a pastor, and furthermore if you feel this is representative of most pastors in the Apostolic church then the family unit is in danger, and there is no wonder men are not as involved in church as you would like them to be.

[Fireside]

Ok, so you mentioned Paul and his guidance regarding divorce, where is your scriptural reference for that outrageous statement above?

If you believe this as a pastor, and furthermore if you feel this is representative of most pastors in the Apostolic church then the family unit is in danger, and there is no wonder men are not as involved in church as you would like them to be.

Carp, how can an unbeliever be his wife's spiritual head when he has no headship over him?

I fail to see what the issue is here.

[Rhoni]

I spoke of an unbelieving husband and a believing wife. Paul said that a spouse being an unbeliever was not grounds for divorce. However, I do believe that said husband is only the head of his wife in non-spiritual areas of life. When it comes to salvation and matters of the Kingdom of God he has no headship.

Actually, anytime that a husband opposes the known will of God for his wife's life he abdicates his headship in spiritual matters.

I have no problem admitting that a pastor's idea and God's idea are not always the same. However, when things are right a pastor is a gift to the church aiding them in finding the will of God and leading them in the ways of God. If such is not the case, then he is not a true pastor anyway.

I think the scripture bears out that the unbelieving spouse can be won to the Lord through the believing wife as she honors his headship in the family regardless of his being a believer or not.

The Biblical hierarchy of family headship is modelled by the church but is also accepted by the world's systems until recently with the family system being threatened or challenged by the Gay, Lesbian, and Bi-sexual community.

I would recommend that the believing wife submit herself as much as possible without violating the laws of God in order to win her spouse.

Blessings, Rhoni

[The Kid]

Carp, how can an unbeliever be his wife's spiritual head when he has no headship over him?

I fail to see what the issue is here.

I would agree with that if the husband were a true unbeliever...this means a man who does not believe in God and does not believe the bible. This is not talking about a husband who is submitted to God yet maintains his God-given responsibility to protect his family from things that happen INSIDE and OUTSIDE the church system.

You know as well as I that we would not be men if we did not consider the protection of our family first OVER what we believe are negative influences, so-called spiritual or not.

A man is NOT an unbeliever if he has a disagreement with the pastor/church system/organization.

[The Kid]

I would agree with that if the husband were a true unbeliever...this means a man who does not believe in God and does not believe the bible. This is not talking about a husband who is submitted to God yet maintains his God-given responsibility to protect his family from things that happen INSIDE and OUTSIDE the church system.

You know as well as I that we would not be men if we did not consider the protection of our family first OVER what we believe are negative influences, so-called spiritual or not.

A man is NOT an unbeliever if he has a disagreement with the pastor/church system/organization.

Someone was looking for a knockdown drag out yet no one responded to this line of discussion?

Hmmmm...

[Felicity]

I don't think a preacher or church has the right to tell a woman what kind of lingerie she wears or what she wears to bed or if she can wear colored hose or not.

How's that? :D

[The Kid]

I don't think a preacher or church has the right to tell a woman what kind of lingerie she wears or what she wears to bed or if she can wear colored hose or not.

How's that? :D

I agree. Hows that?

I have a question worthy of discussion. Can someone please define and/or describe any differences in a man who is...

1. Submitted to God



2. Submitted to the Pastor

[Debra]

I don't think a preacher or church has the right to tell a woman what kind of lingerie she wears or what she wears to bed or if she can wear colored hose or not.

How's that? :D

AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN Preach it Sista'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Debra]

I don't think a preacher or church has the right to tell a woman what kind of lingerie she wears or what she wears to bed or if she can wear colored hose or not.

How's that? :D

For one, what goes on in MY bedroom is MY business and ain't no man other than my husband gonna stick his nose in.....pastor or not!!!! ( and i wholeheartily believe his submission to leadership but that is dictoral)

And 2nd............what does it matter what color hose one wears...I've heard that you can't wear colored hose because that's this particular preacher associated them with prostitutes... I've also heard you HAD to wear colored hose because the nude kind was too "sexy" for pentecostal ladies because it drew attention to the flesh!!!Ugh!:ranting

Okay, now these are example of manmade rules...................the bible speaks of the cutting of hair and the other standards that some call manmade but they get it from the bible.....these others are things that a preacher decides he is just going to preach because it is his preference!!!! :bliss

[josh]

Ok, so you mentioned Paul and his guidance regarding divorce, where is your scriptural reference for that outrageous statement above?

If you believe this as a pastor, and furthermore if you feel this is representative of most pastors in the Apostolic church then the family unit is in danger, and there is no wonder men are not as involved in church as you would like them to be.

Carp, I'm not taking the bait. You are trying to take what I say into the arena of a man having a problem with a pastor.

For the record our men are very involved.

But, back to the issue. I very distinctly spoke of salvational and Kingdom issues and the KNOWN will of God. I am speaking of KNOWN beyond uncertainty.

There is no earthly headship that usurps the headship of God Himself. To use an absurdity to illustrate:

If you told your wife to go and commit adultery would you really think God expects her to submit???

If you told your wife she was no longer allowed to pray do you think God expects her to submit???

If you told her that she could no longer teach your children that the New Birth was a necessity would God expect her to submit???

Now, when we leave the arena of the KNOWN will of God we are outside of what I am referring to. When it becomes a matter of "man" I am not comfortable asserting that the woman should follow the pastor's advice over the husband's. That is more what you are reading into my post. If what the pastor is requesting is the will of God, then she is not heeding him but God. If he is inserting his opinion and the husband is of different opinion (but his opinion would not require a forsaking of the will of God) then she should follow her husband.

I think you are working from the fact that you feel some pastors meddle in families' lives too much. I stepped in because I wanted to reassert the fact that Jesus does require His Kingdom to come first.

I am not asserting that a pastor should dominate a man's wife or insert himself into private family matters.

[josh]

I think the scripture bears out that the unbelieving spouse can be won to the Lord through the believing wife as she honors his headship in the family regardless of his being a believer or not.

The Biblical hierarchy of family headship is modelled by the church but is also accepted by the world's systems until recently with the family system being threatened or challenged by the Gay, Lesbian, and Bi-sexual community.

I would recommend that the believing wife submit herself as much as possible without violating the laws of God in order to win her spouse.

Blessings, Rhoni

This post dovetails exactly with what I believe. Perhaps this adds context to what I said.

Your last statement draws the exact line I draw when I say "known will of God."

[josh]

I would agree with that if the husband were a true unbeliever...this means a man who does not believe in God and does not believe the bible. This is not talking about a husband who is submitted to God yet maintains his God-given responsibility to protect his family from things that happen INSIDE and OUTSIDE the church system.

You know as well as I that we would not be men if we did not consider the protection of our family first OVER what we believe are negative influences, so-called spiritual or not.

A man is NOT an unbeliever if he has a disagreement with the pastor/church system/organization.

Carp, actually the context of the "unbelieving spouse" is that of the New Testament Church doctrine and not a general belief.

However, I do not mean to indicate that a man is an unbeliever if he disagrees with particular assembly or pastor. All of my comments refer strictly to the "church" as being synonymous with the true Kingdom of God.

I also don't mean that a man has abdicated his spiritual headship just because he disagrees with church leadership. I've been in this long enough to know that church leadership can be in error.

[josh]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

Where is this separation or distinction made??

At the point of the Laws of God...the KNOWN will of God...i.e. the plan of salvation, the moral law of God, etc.

[Barb]

AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN Preach it Sista'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have made a lot of posts for one day of membership...whew!! You're good, and your posting style is uniquely familiar...do I know you?!

[The Kid]

Carp, actually the context of the "unbelieving spouse" is that of the New Testament Church doctrine and not a general belief.

However, I do not mean to indicate that a man is an unbeliever if he disagrees with particular assembly or pastor. All of my comments refer strictly to the "church" as being synonymous with the true Kingdom of God.

I also don't mean that a man has abdicated his spiritual headship just because he disagrees with church leadership. I've been in this long enough to know that church leadership can be in error.

Ok, we are not too far disconnected than I thought. I can appreciate what you wrote, BUT, your statement emphasized above can be somewhat subjective because the New Testament Church Doctrine is subjective and has quite a few waterbags hanging from the wagon by folks.

This is sort of what RRFord and I set about discussing a few pages ago.

I don't see bible for this comment.

[Fireside]

This is a tough subject, and one that ought not be an issue between two Believers.

Let's go ahead and boil it all down to what we are tiptoeing around:

1.Hubby wants wifey to wear a wedding band; she doesn't want to because pastor teaches otherwise. What's a girl to do?

2.Hubby wants wifey to wear jeans and go on a Harley ride with his buddy's and their wives. Wifey resists because the pastor teaches against such things. "To pant, or not to pant, that is the question."

And ad naseous.

Bottom line, I think husbands and wives should respect one another's convictions and not force their spouse into a "It's me or the pastor, Baby" litmus test.

[josh]

Ok, we are not too far disconnected than I thought. I can appreciate what you wrote, BUT, your statement emphasized above can be somewhat subjective because the New Testament Church Doctrine is subjective and has quite a few waterbags hanging from the wagon by folks.

This is sort of what RRFord and I set about discussing a few pages ago.

I don't see bible for this comment.

There is no other way to interpret the context.

The interpretation of New Testament Doctrine is subjective, but the doctrine itself is anything but subjective.


With any headship (pastoral or husbandly) comes tremendous responsibility before God. He will ultimately judge. The best we can do is weigh that out accordingly and do the best we can.



Lord bless...

[josh]

This is a tough subject, and one that ought not be an issue between two Believers.

Let's go ahead and boil it all down to what we are tiptoeing around:

1.Hubby wants wifey to wear a wedding band; she doesn't want to because pastor teaches otherwise. What's a girl to do?

2.Hubby wants wifey to wear jeans and go on a Harley ride with his buddy's and their wives. Wifey resists because the pastor teaches against such things. "To pant, or not to pant, that is the question."

And ad naseous.

Bottom line, I think husbands and wives should respect one another's convictions and not force their spouse into a "It's me or the pastor, Baby" litmus test.


If this is the elephant in the room, then I imagine we've reached an impasse...

[Fireside]

If this is the elephant in the room, then I imagine we've reached an impasse...

it might or might not be for Carp, but I think this is the resident pachyderm, Brother.

[whollyHis]

We had a situation when we were newly married that is sort'a what is being discussed here.

My pastor wanted all the married women to wear their hair UP all the time. My husband liked my hair down and curled- that was one of the things that attracted him to me, initially. All of a sudden, I am married and can no longer wear it down...he went to pastor and told him that, as my husband, I was to be in submission to HIS wishes, BEFORE I was in submission to the pastor. Pastor agreed. I wore my hair down when I wasn't on the platform, and UP when I knew I was gonna be used in some capacity that night. It worked for us.

[The Kid]

This is a tough subject, and one that ought not be an issue between two Believers.

Let's go ahead and boil it all down to what we are tiptoeing around:

1.Hubby wants wifey to wear a wedding band; she doesn't want to because pastor teaches otherwise. What's a girl to do?

2.Hubby wants wifey to wear jeans and go on a Harley ride with his buddy's and their wives. Wifey resists because the pastor teaches against such things. "To pant, or not to pant, that is the question."

And ad naseous.

Bottom line, I think husbands and wives should respect one another's convictions and not force their spouse into a "It's me or the pastor, Baby" litmus test.


Coonskinner, I was with you regarding point one, then you drove the Belair straight into the levy...

How many people, I would assume less than 1% are interested in the Harley scenario??? However your question #1 is more pertinent to a vast majority of either husbands or wives that would prefer their spouse to wear a wedding ring inside or even outside the church? Be reasonable for crying out loud, and don't polarize like the rest of your peers.

My wife wears a ring, I did not ask her to, she wanted to. If she chose to take it off, boy, I am not sure what I would do but I would most certainly question some things.

[The Kid]

it might or might not be for Carp, but I think this is the resident pachyderm, Brother.

No its not, especially when you toss in an extreme like that! It brings any serious point you are trying to make into question.

I am afraid you gentlemen don't get the point if you think THAT is the white elephant, red herring, etc... This is indeed only the footprint of the elephant.

[The Kid]

We had a situation when we were newly married that is sort'a what is being discussed here.

My pastor wanted all the married women to wear their hair UP all the time. My husband liked my hair down and curled- that was one of the things that attracted him to me, initially. All of a sudden, I am married and can no longer wear it down...he went to pastor and told him that, as my husband, I was to be in submission to HIS wishes, BEFORE I was in submission to the pastor. Pastor agreed. I wore my hair down when I wasn't on the platform, and UP when I knew I was gonna be used in some capacity that night. It worked for us.

Regardless of my opinion of this situation (some can take a guess :)), this last part I suppose is the defining factor. I wonder if he felt it was a compromise and if soon other married couples began asking to do the same thing until his little rule went by the wayside?

This situation is a tremendous example opposed to a reference to a silly denim clad motorcycle rider...

[Ronzo]

This situation is a tremendous example opposed to a reference to a silly denim clad motorcycle rider...
What does Ghost Rider have to do with this, Carp?

;)

[The Kid]

What does Ghost Rider have to do with this, Carp?

;)

Read Coonskinner's reference...

[whollyHis]

Regardless of my opinion of this situation (some can take a guess :)), this last part I suppose is the defining factor. I wonder if he felt it was a compromise and if soon other married couples began asking to do the same thing until his little rule went by the wayside?

This situation is a tremendous example opposed to a reference to a silly denim clad motorcycle rider...


Well, there WERE other things that my husband questioned, because he came to the Apostolic movement from Nazarene...we were a very conservative church- no toeless nor heel-less shoes, etc. AFter we married, he had several conversations with Pastor. Pastor told him that he didn't believe a lot of his preferences were salvational, just HIS preference. So...when a 'happy compromise' COULD be reached, we all worked together to come to an agreement. On the things that were imperative for platform use- I honored my Pastor, because I had a hunger to work for God. Would I be faced with the same issues today- I would sit down, and dress as my husband asked me to (NEVER inappropriate dress)...he asks SO little of me, and I would want to please him, over pleasing my pastor. JMO

[Fireside]

Coonskinner, I was with you regarding point one, then you drove the Belair straight into the levy...

How many people, I would assume less than 1% are interested in the Harley scenario, however your question is more pertinent to a vast majority of either husbands or wives that would prefer their spouse to wear a wedding ring? Be reasonable for crying out loud, and don't polarize like the rest of your peers.

My wife wears a ring, I did not ask her to, she wanted to. If she chose to take it off, boy, I am not sure what I would do but I would most certainly question some things.

"If she chose..."

These are key words, Carp.

I am not trying to polarize anything. The Harley scenario is actually modeled after a for-instance used by Newman once.

Whether it be a wedding ring, a broach, a diamond necklace he wants to give her...or whether he wants her home on Sunday nights for family time instead of attending services, the basic issue is the same.

You are always going to come out with some wreckage if you force your spouse to choose between her loyalty to his or her faith and convictions, or the divergent opinion of the other spouse. Whichever choice is made.

I had a new convert come to me once, and ask me what to do about her wedding ring. I had said absolutely nothing to her about it, nor had I even preached anything about rings since she had been in the church.

But she began to wonder (you would call it peer pressure) about the ring.

No one had told her she needed to take it off.

She mentioned it to her husband, and he had a hissy fit. She came to me asking me what she should do.

This is where I lose points on the CQ (Conservative Quotient), because I told her to continue wearing it and pray for the time being, unless her conscience would not allow it. I agreed to pray with her about it for a season and see what the Lord would do.

As it turned out, she was so changed by her New Birth experience and the new nature God had given her that her husband softened quickly, and the ring became a non-issue to him. He appreciated the new wife he had.

Eight years later, she is still in the church, and he is still not.

But I am teaching him a Bible Study, and he has come to greatly like and respect me.

In fact, on one emotional occasion, he broke down and wept, and told me he thought I was "the most real person" he had ever met, and that he wished he could be like us.

This is a very manly guy who runs marathons for a hobby.

Most of the problems I have seen arise between husbands and wives over standards that conflict with hubby tend to go back to personal offenses. That isn't always the case, but it is often the case. The issue isn't really the issue.

[mizpeh]

"If she chose..."

These are key words, Carp.

I am not trying to polarize anything. The Harley scenario is actually modeled after a for-instance used by Newman once.

Whether it be a wedding ring, a broach, a diamond necklace he wants to give her...or whether he wants her home on Sunday nights for family time instead of attending services, the basic issue is the same.

You are always going to come out with some wreckage if you force your spouse to choose between her loyalty to his or her faith and convictions, or the divergent opinion of the other spouse. Whichever choice is made.

I had a new convert come to me once, and ask me what to do about her wedding ring. I had said absolutely nothing to her about it, nor had I even preached anything about rings since she had been in the church.

But she began to wonder (you would call it peer pressure) about the ring.

No one had told her she needed to take it off.

She mentioned it to her husband, and he had a hissy fit. She came to me asking me what she should do.

This is where I lose points on the CQ (Conservative Quotient), because I told her to continue wearing it and pray for the time being, unless her conscience would not allow it. I agreed to pray with her about it for a season and see what the Lord would do.

As it turned out, she was so changed by her New Birth experience and the new nature God had given her that her husband softened quickly, and the ring became a non-issue to him. He appreciated the new wife he had.

Eight years later, she is still in the church, and he is still not.

But I am teaching him a Bible Study, and he has come to greatly like and respect me.

In fact, on one emotional occasion, he broke down and wept, and told me he thought I was "the most real person" he had ever met, and that he wished he could be like us.

This is a very manly guy who runs marathons for a hobby.

Most of the problems I have seen arise between husbands and wives over standards that conflict with hubby tend to go back to personal offenses. That isn't always the case, but it is often the case. The issue isn't really the issue.

I agree with Felicity, you really are wise beyond your years. God has truly blessed you.

[Felicity]

Most of the problems I have seen arise between husbands and wives over standards that conflict with hubby tend to go back to personal offenses. That isn't always the case, but it is often the case. The issue isn't really the issue. Truth!

[rgcraig]

Bumped from page 8!

[The Kid]

"If she chose..."

These are key words, Carp.

I am not trying to polarize anything. The Harley scenario is actually modeled after a for-instance used by Newman once.

Whether it be a wedding ring, a broach, a diamond necklace he wants to give her...or whether he wants her home on Sunday nights for family time instead of attending services, the basic issue is the same.

You are always going to come out with some wreckage if you force your spouse to choose between her loyalty to his or her faith and convictions, or the divergent opinion of the other spouse. Whichever choice is made.

I had a new convert come to me once, and ask me what to do about her wedding ring. I had said absolutely nothing to her about it, nor had I even preached anything about rings since she had been in the church.

But she began to wonder (you would call it peer pressure) about the ring.

No one had told her she needed to take it off.

She mentioned it to her husband, and he had a hissy fit. She came to me asking me what she should do.

This is where I lose points on the CQ (Conservative Quotient), because I told her to continue wearing it and pray for the time being, unless her conscience would not allow it. I agreed to pray with her about it for a season and see what the Lord would do.

As it turned out, she was so changed by her New Birth experience and the new nature God had given her that her husband softened quickly, and the ring became a non-issue to him. He appreciated the new wife he had.

Eight years later, she is still in the church, and he is still not.

But I am teaching him a Bible Study, and he has come to greatly like and respect me.

In fact, on one emotional occasion, he broke down and wept, and told me he thought I was "the most real person" he had ever met, and that he wished he could be like us.

This is a very manly guy who runs marathons for a hobby.

Most of the problems I have seen arise between husbands and wives over standards that conflict with hubby tend to go back to personal offenses. That isn't always the case, but it is often the case. The issue isn't really the issue.

I was thinking about this today...and I am really curious to hear/read why this man is no longer going to church.

[Fireside]

I was thinking about this today...and I am really curious to hear/read why this man is no longer going to church.

He never did go to church.

He has visited a few times.

I have a Bible Study with him. He makes no claim of any kind of walk with the Lord. Yet. :)

[Jekyll]

I don't think that Carp is going to get an answer any time soon to the meat of his question. The problem is is that the question is too specific and interpreted differently under each pastorate. When answering about submission there is the obvious wedding ring, or clothing, or lifestyle examples in which spouses can't impose upon each other without violating convictions...

However...

There is no way to be able to arbitrarily say that the Pastor has complete authority nor that he has no authority in issues with which Carp is asking about.

josh's statements previously have come the closest to answering what Carp has asked. But he "wouldn't take the bait" and as a result, didn't say what I would suspect what would be the answer. Some pastors would hope that they would be the final authority between couples and that both spouses would be loyal to the church.

But what is inherent in the statement above is that in being loyal and submitted to the church and, consequently, subject to a human being who acts with God given authority will have human frailties and failures...the bottom line is that we are to be subject to the body of Christ and at the same time His bride...so, do our issues take precedence over peace?

I would hope that Godly wisdom judgement would prevail in our homes and we would strive for the greater good, the unity of the body...

[Felicity]

Yeah Jekyll ..... like I said it's not an easy question to answer. There are too many things to consider to give a simple "yes-no" answer. I think that some of the posts have been excellent. Both Coonskinner and Josh pretty much expressed how I feel about it and they did it better than I could have.

I agree like CS said the issue isn't always the issue. There's underlying stuff and baggage from the past and other probs that make up the real issue.

There's no doubt though that there is a problem with controlling pastors whose demands and expectations go beyond what is necessary and even good. But a couple needs to work some things out between themselves keeping in mind what is best for each other, for their family and in the fear of and out of love for God.

[Steve Epley]

If I get the meat of this thread I as a pastor have no desire to come between a husband and wife nor to be her natural head instead of her husband. Submission is so important in marriage but a husband should consider a wife's devotion to God and church and NOT try to make obstacles that would bring a breach in the order. If these consecrations were done more toward God instead of involving the pastor then the husband would not feel he was second rate and the harmony would be in the home. But I as pastor cannot tread on a personal consecration. And just because I preach it that is NOT a loyalty or devotion test to choose ME above the husband. I am preaching it because I feel either it is God or just it is better not trying to be a task master. I do not want to exact a bunch of stuff or place a heavy needless burden on God's people. BUt I have to be faithful to conscience like the saint and I am answerable to God and conscience.

[The Kid]

He never did go to church.

He has visited a few times.

I have a Bible Study with him. He makes no claim of any kind of walk with the Lord. Yet. :)

Okey dokey...why not? His wife obviously has invested in it.

[The Kid]

If I get the meat of this thread I as a pastor have no desire to come between a husband and wife nor to be her natural head instead of her husband. Submission is so important in marriage but a husband should consider a wife's devotion to God and church and NOT try to make obstacles that would bring a breach in the order. If these consecrations were done more toward God instead of involving the pastor then the husband would not feel he was second rate and the harmony would be in the home. But I as pastor cannot tread on a personal consecration. And just because I preach it that is NOT a loyalty or devotion test to choose ME above the husband. I am preaching it because I feel either it is God or just it is better not trying to be a task master. I do not want to exact a bunch of stuff or place a heavy needless burden on God's people. BUt I have to be faithful to conscience like the saint and I am answerable to God and conscience.


Tremendous, tremendous post Brother Epley!

I believe that there are pastors who are not comfortable in their own skin. This is to mean that they have problems trusting their ministry and the saints. Therefore they insist on maintaining control of things all the time. This may take on the face and embodiment of several different things, but it is nonetheless evident.

Is it an unsafe assumption that there are pastors who do not trust the men in their church to be the spiritual leader of the home, to the extent that HE the pastor can maintain his position of authority/power in the minds of the constituency?

[Fireside]

Okey dokey...why not? His wife obviously has invested in it.

Why not?

I really don't know, Carp.

I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to go to a good, solid Apostolic church. Beats me. Especially the one I pastor. ;)

Seriously, his job is a huge hangup. He works a lot of Sundays, and many hours of overtime besides.

So I am doing a Bible Study with him, which he actually requested. He likes the fact that his wife is in the church, and wants their children to be a part of it.

But for whatever reason, he has not made the decision to make it a priority of his own.

He comes with her sometimes, and has been to the altar and prayed, but so far that is it.

Quien sabe?

[Fireside]

If I get the meat of this thread I as a pastor have no desire to come between a husband and wife nor to be her natural head instead of her husband. Submission is so important in marriage but a husband should consider a wife's devotion to God and church and NOT try to make obstacles that would bring a breach in the order. If these consecrations were done more toward God instead of involving the pastor then the husband would not feel he was second rate and the harmony would be in the home. But I as pastor cannot tread on a personal consecration. And just because I preach it that is NOT a loyalty or devotion test to choose ME above the husband. I am preaching it because I feel either it is God or just it is better not trying to be a task master. I do not want to exact a bunch of stuff or place a heavy needless burden on God's people. BUt I have to be faithful to conscience like the saint and I am answerable to God and conscience.

It really can't be said any better than this.

[rgcraig]

It really can't be said any better than this.

I agree!

Of course, we know that it's not always that way, but it's the way it should be.

[The Kid]

I don't think that Carp is going to get an answer any time soon to the meat of his question. The problem is is that the question is too specific and interpreted differently under each pastorate. When answering about submission there is the obvious wedding ring, or clothing, or lifestyle examples in which spouses can't impose upon each other without violating convictions...

However...

There is no way to be able to arbitrarily say that the Pastor has complete authority nor that he has no authority in issues with which Carp is asking about.

josh's statements previously have come the closest to answering what Carp has asked. But he "wouldn't take the bait" and as a result, didn't say what I would suspect what would be the answer. Some pastors would hope that they would be the final authority between couples and that both spouses would be loyal to the church.

But what is inherent in the statement above is that in being loyal and submitted to the church and, consequently, subject to a human being who acts with God given authority will have human frailties and failures...the bottom line is that we are to be subject to the body of Christ and at the same time His bride...so, do our issues take precedence over peace?

I would hope that Godly wisdom judgement would prevail in our homes and we would strive for the greater good, the unity of the body...

Excellent post my brother, excellent. You are correct...as usual.

I question the extent and understanding however regarding the God given authority. Some would say that the authority is simply walking into the cross walk and holding up a stop sign...to others it means re-engineering the street and traffic system.

[The Kid]

Why not?

I really don't know, Carp.

I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to go to a good, solid Apostolic church. Beats me. Especially the one I pastor. ;)

Seriously, his job is a huge hangup. He works a lot of Sundays, and many hours of overtime besides.

So I am doing a Bible Study with him, which he actually requested. He likes the fact that his wife is in the church, and wants their children to be a part of it.

But for whatever reason, he has not made the decision to make it a priority of his own.

He comes with her sometimes, and has been to the altar and prayed, but so far that is it.

Quien sabe?

So what has priority over making a committment? In this situation or in a more general perspective regarding the fellas.

Unless of course, you can honestly say that as a general principal in the Apostolic church that men are AS committed as the women, there are AS many men as there are women, and they lead in all the areas of service opposed to women?

I can say I have seen and been in many many A-churches and I will not travel out on that limb.

[Fireside]

So what has priority over making a committment? In this situation or in a more general perspective regarding the fellas.

Unless of course, you can honestly say that as a general principal in the Apostolic church that men are AS committed as the women, there are AS many men as there are women, and they lead in all the areas of service opposed to women?

I can say I have seen and been in many many A-churches and I will not travel out on that limb.

We are blessed to have a group of strong men in our local assembly.

We aren't as heavily weighted toward women vs. men as I guess they are in some places.

I prefer male leadership wherever possible, by the way.

I do make an exception for the ladies auxillary.

[The Kid]

We are blessed to have a group of strong men in our local assembly.

We aren't as heavily weighted toward women vs. men as I guess they are in some places.

I prefer male leadership wherever possible, by the way.

I do make an exception for the ladies auxillary.

What about the first part of the question...Dr. :killinme




FYI...it is redundant to put your credentials after your prefix of Dr.

[Felicity]

I never get kudos from Carp. :sad :sad :sad















:)

[The Kid]

Yeah Jekyll ..... like I said it's not an easy question to answer.

Both Coonskinner and Josh pretty much expressed how I feel about it and they did it better than I could have.

I agree like CS said.....




Felicity never agrees with me! :sad :sad













:killinme

[Fireside]

So what has priority over making a committment? In this situation or in a more general perspective regarding the fellas.

Unless of course, you can honestly say that as a general principal in the Apostolic church that men are AS committed as the women, there are AS many men as there are women, and they lead in all the areas of service opposed to women?

I can say I have seen and been in many many A-churches and I will not travel out on that limb.

With this man, it is just a matter of him being very much defined by his job. It is his identity.

As for Apostolic churches in general, I can't say for sure...I have been blessed personally to be associated with churches that have strong leadership and a good balance of strong men. I know the other kind exist, and I think there are some reasons, which we have discussed extensively on the other forum.

I do think that churches made up mainly of women are really not the kind I would care to be a part of.

[rgcraig]

I never get kudos from Carp. :sad :sad :sad


:)You don't need kudos! Or do you? :bliss

[Felicity]

I never get kudos from Carp. :sad :sad :sad















:)

You don't need kudos! Or do you? :bliss

Sometimes. We all do. But in this case I was just kidding. ;)

[rgcraig]

Sometimes. We all do. But in this case I was just kidding. ;)

I prefer chocolate or flowers!!!! :ty :heeheehee

[Jekyll]

Excellent post my brother, excellent. You are correct...as usual.

I question the extent and understanding however regarding the God given authority. Some would say that the authority is simply walking into the cross walk and holding up a stop sign...to others it means re-engineering the street and traffic system.
Some want to reengineer the crosswalk if it says this...http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:0S5k-VLFso1WnM:http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~hsieh/photos/england/uk-london-crosswalk.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~hsieh/photos/england/uk-london-crosswalk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~hsieh/photos_england3.html&h=1200&w=1600&sz=547&hl=en&sig2=dkgjBt_XpCX1MPhFaqd_5A&start=19&tbnid=0S5k-VLFso1WnM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&ei=4K3kRY3NO7eCJfmpuIkG&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrosswalk%26start%3D18%26ndsp%3D18%26 svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2006-32,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN)

Or should it really be reengineered if it looks like this???
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:RfdxyFG4P2FZ5M:http://www.bubbabohacks.com/photos/redneck_school_crossing.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bubbabohacks.com/photos/redneck_school_crossing.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bubbabohacks.com/BB_fnny_stuff.htm&h=381&w=500&sz=37&hl=en&sig2=A3EJh4GDgrE3MI2AV4VZwQ&start=83&tbnid=RfdxyFG4P2FZ5M:&tbnh=99&tbnw=130&ei=2q7kRfe_CMzaJNOT-ckG&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522school%2Bcrossing%2522%26start%3 D72%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGL G,GGLG:2006-32,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN)

[Felicity]

I prefer chocolate or flowers!!!! :ty :heeheehee You definitely deserve them. :bouquet

[rgcraig]

You definitely deserve them. :bouquet

Cool - I love daisies! They are so clean and fresh - - just make me smile when I see them!!!!!

[whollyHis]

With this man, it is just a matter of him being very much defined by his job. It is his identity.

As for Apostolic churches in general, I can't say for sure...I have been blessed personally to be associated with churches that have strong leadership and a good balance of strong men. I know the other kind exist, and I think there are some reasons, which we have discussed extensively on the other forum.

I do think that churches made up mainly of women are really not the kind I would care to be a part of.



Me neither!! I would rather work for a male boss anyday, than a female...

[Felicity]

Me neither!! I would rather work for a male boss anyday, than a female...Moi aussi!

Although some men can be fairly temperamental too. I hate it when they get like that. :heeheehee

[Jekyll]

Me neither!! I would rather work for a male boss anyday, than a female...
That's why Paul didn't allow women to pastor...

:bliss :bliss :bliss


Then again...:killinme :killinme

[whollyHis]

Moi aussi!

Although some men can be fairly temperamental too. I hate it when they get like that. :heeheehee


The only really 'temperamental' male boss I had was gay- so, that explains THAT. Heehee...

The church I attended growing up had about three or four females per each male. Women did EVERYTHING. I actually got SICK of seeing women 'in my face' all the time. Give me male leadership anyday. I'm not AGAINST women in the pulpit- just prefer that a man teach me how to live.

[Felicity]

The only really 'temperamental' male boss I had was gay- so, that explains THAT. Heehee...

The church I attended growing up had about three or four females per each male. Women did EVERYTHING. I actually got SICK of seeing women 'in my face' all the time. Give me male leadership anyday. I'm not AGAINST women in the pulpit- just prefer that a man teach me how to live.Where I work all of us are women of various ages. Our boss is male. :killinme

[rgcraig]

Carp,

Throw out a new question on relationships! Let's keep this going.

[The Kid]

Carp,

Throw out a new question on relationships! Let's keep this going.

I would really like to know if and in what regard women talk about their husbands/relationship/marriage, etc. at ladies functions, retreats, etc.

I know for certain that when the fellas get together, that is the furthest thing from their minds. In fact ALL of the men's retreats, etc. they aren't that spiritual outside the prayer and chapel times...in fact.

Men's groups are very difficult to homogenize in terms of connecting Blue Collar-Bob with his 50 gallon coffee mug, the guy with 30 electronic gadgets hanging on his belt, the kids, the super spiritual, and the guy who is a high public high tithe payer.

I actually feel sorry for the pastor during retreat because he has to identify with all these fellas at one time!

:killinme

I know the women talk, I just want to know about what!

[The Kid]

(True story) I was playing golf with a couple of guys from church, Mike and Al. Al's wife was expecting very soon at that time.

We came onto one green and Mike asked Al "Al, has your wife had her baby yet?"

Al said, "No, not yet, but any day."

Mike asked the two of us, "Has Anne Ward had her baby yet...wow, she looks like she is going to have a HORSE!!" (Brother Ward is a big guy on campus at the church, college athlete, lifelong member, big money, board member, super guy.)

Mike, who is close to being a millionaire himself, turned white when he realized what he said while Al and I were losing our lunch laughing. :killinme :killinme

I promised I wouldn't tell that story, but I just did (changed the names of course to protect the innocent)! :killinme

[rgcraig]

I would really like to know if and in what regard women talk about their husbands/relationship/marriage, etc. at ladies functions, retreats, etc.

I know for certain that when the fellas get together, that is the furthest thing from their minds. In fact ALL of the men's retreats, etc. they aren't that spiritual outside the prayer and chapel times...in fact.

Men's groups are very difficult to homogenize in terms of connecting Blue Collar-Bob with his 50 gallon coffee mug, the guy with 30 electronic gadgets hanging on his belt, the kids, the super spiritual, and the guy who is a high public high tithe payer.

I actually feel sorry for the pastor during retreat because he has to identify with all these fellas at one time!

:killinme

I know the women talk, I just want to know about what!Great question and I'll answer in a bit (work actually comes first).

[rgcraig]

I believe most women talk to other women about their husbands/relationship, etc. in these type settings and the subject would vary by the comfort level of each woman.

In general though, I believe most conversations lean in the direction of complaining. One will say something to the effect, "sorry, I'm late, but Fred couldn't seem to figure out how to fix the kids something to eat", then the pile on begins.

For the most part, I believe women can talk too much about their relationships with their husbands, but apparently they find comfort in knowing that they aren't alone.

The range of discussion can be from complaining about what they won't do, sex, asking advice or at times even bragging on how great their husband is.

It all varies with the situation and the group of women. One thing women do know is that men don't talk to their friends like we talk to ours.

[rgcraig]

Funny story from my mom. She was just complaining and complaining to me that she'd get interesting in watching something on TV and "your dad" will change the channel. He just flips from channel to channel.

I told her "mom all men do that!"

She's from the era that you DIDN'T talk about your husband to others. It was just funny to me that she really didn't understand that it's a man thing.

[Rhoni]

Me neither!! I would rather work for a male boss anyday, than a female...

Women have more to prove and are under the spotlight so much they tend to be more rigid and structured...have to be or it will come back to bite them...JMHO

Blessings, rhoni

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Funny story from my mom. She was just complaining and complaining to me that she'd get interesting in watching something on TV and "your dad" will change the channel. He just flips from channel to channel.

I told her "mom all men do that!"

She's from the era that you DIDN'T talk about your husband to others. It was just funny to me that she really didn't understand that it's a man thing.

I am sorry, what were you saying as I flipped from Thread to Thread?

:heeheehee

[rgcraig]

I am sorry, what were you saying as I flipped from Thread to Thread?

:heeheehee

You've got it!

[The Kid]

Women have more to prove and are under the spotlight so much they tend to be more rigid and structured...have to be or it will come back to bite them...JMHO

Blessings, rhoni

I would say you are absolutely correct, and I believe the Apostolic culture breeds this attitude.

[The Kid]

Funny story from my mom. She was just complaining and complaining to me that she'd get interesting in watching something on TV and "your dad" will change the channel. He just flips from channel to channel.

I told her "mom all men do that!"

She's from the era that you DIDN'T talk about your husband to others. It was just funny to me that she really didn't understand that it's a man thing.

:D

It hit me, I don't have cable or sat here at home, but we have it at our facility. I watch probably 3 minutes of TV while I am there, but no channel longer than 5-10 seconds...unless it catches my eye. I had to laugh at myself at what I was trying to accomplish.

I don't get it, but you are right, it is a man-thing.

[rgcraig]

I would say you are absolutely correct, and I believe the Apostolic culture breeds this attitude.

I don't think Apostolic cultures are responsible for this attitude. I see it in the corporate world everyday and they don't have a clue what Apostolic even is.

Women in general tend to have to prove themselves in the corporate world.

Men can be real hard heads and they are just doing their jobs. Let a woman stand up and be heard and well, she's called very unfavorable names.

We have a building full of male VP's and only one woman VP.

[Felicity]

I'm a channel hopper ....... unless I'm watching something that has my full attention. Guess that's a testimony to the fact I find TV mostly boring and I hate having to sit and wait for commercials. The only worthwhile thing about them is it gives you to opportunity to reheat your coffee, pop the popcorn, go the bathroom, etc.

I'm not allowed to have the remote most of the time. :ranting

[J-Roc]

I'm a channel hopper ....... unless I'm watching something that has my full attention. Guess that's a testimony to the fact I find TV mostly boring and I hate having to sit and wait for commercials. The only worthwhile thing about them is it gives you to opportunity to reheat your coffee, pop the popcorn, go the bathroom, etc.

I'm not allowed to have the remote most of the time. :ranting



You can solve that by getting the DVR service through your programming provider, start watching 20 minutes after it starts, and fast-forward through the commercials and by the time you are done, you have just watched a scheduled one hour program in less than 40 minutes... :bliss

[Felicity]

You can solve that by getting the DVR service through your programming provider, start watching 20 minutes after it starts, and fast-forward through the commercials and by the time you are done, you have just watched a scheduled one hour program in less than 40 minutes... :blissSounds like a plan! Actually though, I don't watch enough TV to even bother.

But we're off topic and Carp's gonna get mad at me. :heeheehee