Homestead Heritage in waco tx

[areyourucky]

Has anyone visted there. We did and it was pleasant, and like going into a time Zone. It was nice to see children not tainted by the world.

[Sherri]

Has anyone visted there. We did and it was pleasant, and like going into a time Zone. It was nice to see children not tainted by the world.I think you'll find some people on here who are not so thrilled with this place, if I remember right.

[ILG]

I have only heard bad things about the place. Looks great from the outside until you start peeling layers....

[*AQuietPlace*]

I've been there. It's an interesting place, interesting concept... but I'd never want to live like that, so completely apart from the world. Not exactly "go ye therefore" in my opinion.

Some of the people came from Mark Hanby's.

[RandyWayne]

These places scare me to death. For one they scare me in their own right but also because of the black eye they give Christianity in general.

[crakjak]

Sister Alvear is the resident expert on HH, she has lived there and I believe her mother still lives there.

I have visited there, we enjoyed the food and the tours, they make some fabulous fine furniture. We sensed an underlying bondage and legalism, also question why most of the residents live in mobile homes, when they are such artisans and craftsmen?

Many of the folks came from the NY area with the founder Blair Adams.

[*AQuietPlace*]

I think the craftsmanship is awesome and really a valuable thing to learn and know. I just question their exclusiveness.

[crakjak]

I think the craftsmanship is awesome and really a valuable thing to learn and know. I just question their exclusiveness.

I would agree.

[CC1]

Sherri is correct. You need to dig a little deeper.

I saw that same "nirvana" appearnce in the TV interviews with the wives and children of that polygmist sect that got raided in Texas last year and the kids taken.

The women looked like Little House on The Prairie moms. As wholesome as any Pentecostal woman. They led simple lives devoted to their religion and were VERY seperated from the "world" in their VERY modest dress standard.

The Waco bunch this thread is about are not into polygmy but they are into control. I have observed some of it first hand. Blair came out of Kenneth Phillips church in Austin a long, long time ago. Around the late 70's or if in the 80's it was before '83.

Unless they have change in the last 15 years they are big time into "shunning". They are really nice to visitors and customers but they are not seeing the reality of the situation.

I observed a really funny situation with that group involving the "shunning" back in the early 1990's.

[crakjak]

Sherri is correct. You need to dig a little deeper.

I saw that same "nirvana" appearnce in the TV interviews with the wives and children of that polygmist sect that got raided in Texas last year and the kids taken.

The women looked like Little House on The Prairie moms. As wholesome as any Pentecostal woman. They led simple lives devoted to their religion and were VERY seperated from the "world" in their VERY modest dress standard.

The Waco bunch this thread is about are not into polygmy but they are into control. I have observed some of it first hand. Blair came out of Kenneth Phillips church in Austin a long, long time ago. Around the late 70's or if in the 80's it was before '83.

Unless they have change in the last 15 years they are big time into "shunning". They are really nice to visitors and customers but they are not seeing the reality of the situation.

I observed a really funny situation with that group involving the "shunning" back in the early 1990's.

You have our attention....? Howard Wheeler, an elder at HH was out of Phillips, was Blair also?

[Sister Alvear]

no one would like to know what I know about that place...I don´t plan to go into details...however it would be easy to be swept away from an outside veiw...living there is another thing...
Of course some people like others to make their decisions...

[*AQuietPlace*]

no one would like to know what I know about that place...I don´t plan to go into details...however it would be easy to be swept away from an outside veiw...living there is another thing...
Of course some people like others to make their decisions...
I know personally some of the people there. One of the ladies used to be my mom's (Pentecostal hairstyles) hairdresser. When my mom tried to ask her questions about her current life there, she was very, very evasive. Couldn't answer anything without 'the elders' approval. It really made me raise my eyebrows!

[Blubayou]

My husband's family has family there- Blair Adams is out of K Phillips' church , then went to New York to start a work. I do not know a lot about it, except what my husband's family says about it- but from what they have said - it is very close to a cult.

[Sherri]

There's a place close to here (Selmer, TN) that's called Rose Creek Village that appears to be very similar. It draws people who want a simpler lifestyle, and is very self-contained. The men all take on Biblical names - not sure about the women. They used to own a restaurant in Selmer called "Another Realm" that had unbelievable food, but was pretty weird. It sold a lot of New Age type stuff, but they had all sorts of homemade crafts and foods. They looked like a cross between Mennonites and old line Pentecostals. They also had a midwife service that others in the community could hire out.

[Sister Alvear]

Sherri when are you joining?....ha....love you.

[CC1]

My husband's family has family there- Blair Adams is out of K Phillips' church , then went to New York to start a work. I do not know a lot about it, except what my husband's family says about it- but from what they have said - it is very close to a cult.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner folks. It always amuses me when people visit these wacko cultish groups of people and come away all impressed and thinking they have created some kind of great thing.

[CC1]

You have our attention....? Howard Wheeler, an elder at HH was out of Phillips, was Blair also?

I believe so. I have never heard KP say a negative word about them by the way. Their names have come up when he would tell stories about the early 70's and the hippie revival at his church.

[SeekingOne]

Has anyone visted there. We did and it was pleasant, and like going into a time Zone. It was nice to see children not tainted by the world.

I know people from there and have been to activities there. Everyone is very sweet. I love that they care for their elderly and don't put them in nursing homes.

The scary part is that if you join and then they "feel" God told them something and you disagree you have to leave and they believe you will go to hell because you broke your covenant with them/God. (They are Jesus in the flesh.)

You can't get baptized in Homestead Heritage unless you also pledge that you will never leave the church. Again, if you leave they believe you will go to hell.

[Sister Alvear]

If by believing you were going to hell was all...it would be ok....however there is a lot more to it than that.

[Praxeas]

These places scare me to death. For one they scare me in their own right but also because of the black eye they give Christianity in general.
Scares me too. History has shown the cloistered groups tend toward cultism and I mean of the psychological kind, not to mention scary heresies. We need only look at Jim Jones, Koresh, the polygamists and so on. This stuff started way back with the montanists

[pelathais]

Here's the link (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/05/06/05062007wachomesteadpartone.html) to the Waco Tribune news story from 2007.

[Sister Alvear]

Scares me too. History has shown the cloistered groups tend toward cultism and I mean of the psychological kind, not to mention scary heresies. We need only look at Jim Jones, Koresh, the polygamists and so on. This stuff started way back with the montanists


A religion that destroys families and ruins lives is not the religion of the Kingdom.
I have lots of their books and writings and know them personally...I want nothing to do with what goes on behind closed doors...Jesus came to set the captives free not make captives and brain wash people and have closed door services...I could tell you a lot about the closed door services at Waco...my advice...stay away...

[Sister Alvear]

If someone wants a christian community I really think that is nice as long as it is CHRISTIAN.

[Blubayou]

Very good ariticle. I found the comments after the article interesting. I knew Blaire and Regina Adams in the early 70's. They were a very charismatic couple. I do believe this is a cult.

[pelathais]

Very good ariticle. I found the comments after the article interesting. I knew Blaire and Regina Adams in the early 70's. They were a very charismatic couple. I do believe this is a cult.
Everything I have heard has been second hand. I was still a bit of a kid but I remember folks talking about them moving out to Texas many years back.

[Sister Alvear]

Very good ariticle. I found the comments after the article interesting. I knew Blaire and Regina Adams in the early 70's. They were a very charismatic couple. I do believe this is a cult.


I agree with you in every sense of the word...CULT...

and that is not to say all the people there are evil that is far from the truth...however the doctrine taught there is evil and far from truth.

[Blubayou]

When I knew Blaire and Regina they were evangelizing out of K. Phillips church and were planning to go to New York to start a work. They came to our church and held a long revival- I got to know them there. We also had some mutual friends in Austin. Regina was very outgoing and outspoken. Blaire was more reserved and quiet. I kept up with them through some friends that were pastoring in the Northeast and knew they had strayed from the UPC path.

[jaxfam6]

When I knew Blaire and Regina they were evangelizing out of K. Phillips church and were planning to go to New York to start a work. They came to our church and held a long revival- I got to know them there. We also had some mutual friends in Austin. Regina was very outgoing and outspoken. Blaire was more reserved and quiet. I kept up with them through some friends that were pastoring in the Northeast and knew they had strayed from the UPC path.

Sounds like they strayed from more than just the UPC path.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Here's the link (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/05/06/05062007wachomesteadpartone.html) to the Waco Tribune news story from 2007.
That's a very interesting article. I've been there, and while it seems so nostalgic and simple on the surface, I had a feeling it was very controlling underneath.

[TJJJ]

This is new to me. I have never seen this before yet I have heard recently of another experiment, similar to this, that is looking to start up in another state.

Are these people from Apostolic backgrounds? Jesus name folks?

TJJJ

[*AQuietPlace*]

This is new to me. I have never seen this before yet I have heard recently of another experiment, similar to this, that is looking to start up in another state.

Are these people from Apostolic backgrounds? Jesus name folks?

TJJJ
The main leaders were UPC.

[TJJJ]

The main leaders were UPC.

Are they still oneness? I have a friend that is drifting this direction and I want to know more about this mindset. When he began to tell me about it I thought he was the only one, now I find this. Can you tell me more so I can help him if I can.

[Sister Alvear]

yes, they are very oneness...in more ways than one. What you see is NOT what you get...

They are Jesus Christ on earth...to disobey would be to disobey Jesus Christ...

The people for the most part are sweet people and hard working people however like Brazil leadership is the problem...

When mere men becomes gods...something is wrong...terribly wrong....

[Sister Alvear]

and I have no problem with a Christian community...but I do have problems with men that think they are gods of some sort. I have lots of their teachings for on the surface it looks so nice...

[pelathais]

Are they still oneness? I have a friend that is drifting this direction and I want to know more about this mindset. When he began to tell me about it I thought he was the only one, now I find this. Can you tell me more so I can help him if I can.
When you say "like this..." concerning your friend - do you mean he's (or she?) is specifically looking toward the Homestead group in Waco, TX? Or is your friend just kind of thinking about "going country?"

The Homestead group in Waco has a specific set of core doctrines that make them problematic, apart from the agrarian lifestyle.

"Going country" is kind of cool, actually. But the problems, if there is a problem, all really lie with the accompanying belief sets.

[Sister Alvear]

I like the contry part however I do not care for groups that abuse.

[RandyWayne]

I like the contry part however I do not care for groups that abuse.

Now just watch.... A Homestead Heritage leader will start a thread about members who are difficult to get "lined up".

[TJJJ]

When you say "like this..." concerning your friend - do you mean he's (or she?) is specifically looking toward the Homestead group in Waco, TX? Or is your friend just kind of thinking about "going country?"

The Homestead group in Waco has a specific set of core doctrines that make them problematic, apart from the agrarian lifestyle.

"Going country" is kind of cool, actually. But the problems, if there is a problem, all really lie with the accompanying belief sets.

It is more than going country. That i can live with myself.

When you say core doctrines, what are you meaning? I have looked at their site since I saw this thread and they don't have anything there in writing. According to some articles on the web that is SOP for them.

I am disturbed because there are already people leaving his church over this decision to go this direction. I don't think he even knows about HH as he does not do internet and lives up in the northern US. It is just kinda like seeing symptoms at HH that I have been observing now for some months in this other situation. Very, very distubing.

TJJJ

[CC1]

This is new to me. I have never seen this before yet I have heard recently of another experiment, similar to this, that is looking to start up in another state.

Are these people from Apostolic backgrounds? Jesus name folks?

TJJJ

Read the thread TJJJ!!!!!

It is not that many pages and it dicusses that these guys came ouf of Kenneth Phillips church way back in the 1970's. I believe they got saved in the big hippie revival his church had in Austin in the early to mid 70's.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Now just watch.... A Homestead Heritage leader will start a thread about members who are difficult to get "lined up".
Start a thread here? Or on another site?

[CC1]

Now just watch.... A Homestead Heritage leader will start a thread about members who are difficult to get "lined up".

LOL!!! I don't think they have a problem getting people to line up. The peer pressure is immense and if you don't you are booted out, ostracized, on your way to hell, don't pass go, don't collect $200!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry!!!!!

I purposefully had not gotten into detail about the darker part of their practices but I am glad someone on this thread did get into it a little with their practices regarding excommunication, shunning, etc.

[pelathais]

It is more than going country. That i can live with myself.

When you say core doctrines, what are you meaning? I have looked at their site since I saw this thread and they don't have anything there in writing. According to some articles on the web that is SOP for them.

I am disturbed because there are already people leaving his church over this decision to go this direction. I don't think he even knows about HH as he does not do internet and lives up in the northern US. It is just kinda like seeing symptoms at HH that I have been observing now for some months in this other situation. Very, very distubing.

TJJJ
When they "leave" - where are they going? Are they forming some other group? What are they leaving to go and join?

[TJJJ]

Read the thread TJJJ!!!!!

It is not that many pages and it dicusses that these guys came ouf of Kenneth Phillips church way back in the 1970's. I believe they got saved in the big hippie revival his church had in Austin in the early to mid 70's.

Whoa CC!!!! Get off your horse for a minute! I don't even know Kenneth Phillips! Who is he? That doesn't tell me a thing! Is he trinitarian, charismatic, new age, vision forum,... your talking to someone who his name means nothing! That is what I am trying to find out for!

I have googled HH and got some pretty pictures of a grist mill! Nothing about doctrines or anything. I looked at some articles and got two different pictures. One bad and one good! Still doesn't mean much. I am trying to pm some and have got a few responses but I'm still digging.

You guys are throwing names out there that mean nothing to me at this time. Forgive my ignorance but it is the truth!

[KWSS1976]

I don't know but just the name Waco, Tx scares me..LOL

[*AQuietPlace*]

Google Homestead Heritage abuse. It brings up some interesting stuff.

[TJJJ]

When they "leave" - where are they going? Are they forming some other group? What are they leaving to go and join?

Pel

I have a pastor friend who, for some time, has been contemplating, studying, investigating, something similar to what is going on there at HH. He now has started making some moves in the direction of buying land for this very thing, ie a community for believers to be fairly self sufficient, along the lines of HH.

I have resisted the direction he is going but we have remained friends. Well, just last night I saw this thread and began to get interested in the discussion as it related to this man's direction. He does not even know of HH but what he is planning closely resembles what I am seeing go on there at HH.

As far as people leaving this pastor's church, it has already began. Just last week a family left him over this very thing of this community thing. Now there are alarm bells going off in my brain because I feel like I am seeing, possibly, the same deception going on there as in HH. I am very interested to see more of the core concepts of HH to see the parallels.

TJJJ

[TJJJ]

Google Homestead Heritage abuse. It brings up some interesting stuff.

I agree that it does, as I just did that and read the articles. That is why I am so interested at this time. My concern is possibly turning my friend away from that sort of thing if it is truly damaging.

[KWSS1976]

So was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Carmel_Center

Better run to the hills..LOL

[pelathais]

Pel

I have a pastor friend who, for some time, has been contemplating, studying, investigating, something similar to what is going on there at HH. He now has started making some moves in the direction of buying land for this very thing, ie a community for believers to be fairly self sufficient, along the lines of HH.

I have resisted the direction he is going but we have remained friends. Well, just last night I saw this thread and began to get interested in the discussion as it related to this man's direction. He does not even know of HH but what he is planning closely resembles what I am seeing go on there at HH.

As far as people leaving this pastor's church, it has already began. Just last week a family left him over this very thing of this community thing. Now there are alarm bells going off in my brain because I feel like I am seeing, possibly, the same deception going on there as in HH. I am very interested to see more of the core concepts of HH to see the parallels.

TJJJ
That can be disturbing. I was just asking because you didn't really tie it into HH or say it was something else in that first post.

The people leaving is a reason to sit up and take notice. His "community" plans are curious. Is he communicating with some specific group or organizer?

There were at least two groups like this around here many years ago. One moved on and became HH. The other is still around and is just kind of "weird."

[CC1]

Whoa CC!!!! Get off your horse for a minute! I don't even know Kenneth Phillips! Who is he? That doesn't tell me a thing! Is he trinitarian, charismatic, new age, vision forum,... your talking to someone who his name means nothing! That is what I am trying to find out for!

I have googled HH and got some pretty pictures of a grist mill! Nothing about doctrines or anything. I looked at some articles and got two different pictures. One bad and one good! Still doesn't mean much. I am trying to pm some and have got a few responses but I'm still digging.

You guys are throwing names out there that mean nothing to me at this time. Forgive my ignorance but it is the truth!



TJJJJJJJJ,,

Sorry about that. Us old timers think everybody is as old as dirt also and knows all of these names that were once famous in the UPC. Kenneth Phillips was a top UPC evangelist / pastor in the 60's and 70's who left the UPC in 1978 after they banned ministering on TV because he felt led to evangelize through television.

At the time, 1978, he had one of the largest churches in the UPC. He ran about 1500 people and had experienced a tremendous revival in Austin since he had begun pastoring there around 1966 or 1968. In the early to mid 70'sthey had a big hippie revival and many hippies came to the Lord. There are a lot of UPC, not UPC and other pastors who came out of that revival.

You would be amazed at the number of UPC preachers and saints who are around 45-60 years old who got baptized or received the Holy Ghost baptism under a Kenneth Phillips sermon at a Campmeeting or Conference of some kind in the 1970's.

[Sister Alvear]

I may not agree with KP but I have deep respect for his burden for souls.

[ChTatum]

I don't know but just the name Waco, Tx scares me..LOL


LOL! That name doesn't scare me as much as "Janet Reno".

[*AQuietPlace*]

The comments here are interesting:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2007/05/homestead-heritage-defends-itself.html

[Sister Alvear]

and everything they said about HH is true and much more...

[crakjak]

TJJJJJJJJ,,

Sorry about that. Us old timers think everybody is as old as dirt also and knows all of these names that were once famous in the UPC. Kenneth Phillips was a top UPC evangelist / pastor in the 60's and 70's who left the UPC in 1978 after they banned ministering on TV because he felt led to evangelize through television.

At the time, 1978, he had one of the largest churches in the UPC. He ran about 1500 people and had experienced a tremendous revival in Austin since he had begun pastoring there around 1966 or 1968. In the early to mid 70'sthey had a big hippie revival and many hippies came to the Lord. There are a lot of UPC, not UPC and other pastors who came out of that revival.

You would be amazed at the number of UPC preachers and saints who are around 45-60 years old who got baptized or received the Holy Ghost baptism under a Kenneth Phillips sermon at a Campmeeting or Conference of some kind in the 1970's.

I remember in the late seventies, going to Austin to visit with KP about soulwinning, AM sent us there from the church in Plano, TX.

Howard Wheeler was very much involved at the time, we met with him over lunch to talk about reaching out.

Some time before that I remember him preaching at The Wide World of Pentecost in Fort Worth, TX, he preached barefoot, I guess he was still a hippie. It is so unfortunate that all that passion could not be guided in a sustainable direction, the organization just had no clue on how to lead them. Nor was KP or MH equipped either, as much as they desired to do so. Then HW goes to Waco and becomes a modern day hippie in a commune.

[Sister Alvear]

so sad...so much wasted talent.

[John Atkinson]

So what is it about Texas and particular and Waco area in general that draws these groups?

HH looks like a really great place to visit, but you just don't want to live there.

[Sister Alvear]

human nature...

[Steven Avery]

Greetings!

hmmm ... I just read through this thread from a decade back, and I was surprised that I have never posted directly, although Homestead Heritage occasionally came up in some auxiliary threads on other topics, like the Jehovah and yahweh discussions. Back in those years a decade back I was rather quiet because of ongoing communication with Homestead Heritage, including doctrinal back and forth with elders amidst some visiting fellowship times. And by 2009 I had recently defended them in what can be called the Factnet wars. And there was an intense visit at the Fair over Thanksgiving in 2009.

And maybe later I will discuss the early years, and the vision and direction, much of which bore fruit over the years in terms of community and crafts, with the hope of being the Christian city on the hill. The 70s were truly amazing, and that led into Colorado and the early 80s, where the doctrines were essentially sound. For now, let me add a few thoughts that I hope will be especially appropriate in this forum. The first post I really noted was about water baptism.

You can't get baptized in Homestead Heritage unless you also pledge that you will never leave the church. This baptism doctrine, making the water baptism closely connected to submission to the ministry, developed around 1990, and had its own quirks in development. Since I was fully involved with the fellership from late 76 (New Jersey) to 85 (Colorado, and some had moved to Texas) I learned about these baptism change from friends who left at various times. Ironically, even though I visited them a few times in the 1990s, these types of changes were hush-hush, so I learned them through the grapevine. :) As an aside, my first contacts were around 74, maybe 75, when they were down in NYC on 14th Street.

Interestingly, in the early 1980s in Colorado they had added an Acts 8:37:

Acts 8:37 (AV)
And Philip said,
If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
And he answered and said,
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

type of public confession of faith at the time of water baptism, that should be a sincere and clear and solid public testimony, not just some repetition of words.

1Timothy 6:12 (AV)
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,
whereunto thou art also called,
and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

This has always seemed scripturally spot-on. I even remember one water baptism being dismissed, as the gentleman simply could not come forth speaking a profession of faith, even with an encouraging sense from the brothers and sisters. While there was a heaviness, it definitely had a sense of being in the proper patterns of God.

=======================

Certain elements changed later.

And, despite their general secrecy, you can also find one very questionable part (and this is putting it nicely, other words come to mind) of their baptism doctrine today online. Go to the url for the full public SOF.

Homestead Heritage - What we Believe (emphasis added)
https://www.homesteadheritage.com/beliefs/

—We believe in believer’s baptism (immersion) as a pledge of the old nature into the sacrificial death of Jesus as well as into the lordship of Jesus and that therefore takes place in the name of Jesus.11

11 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 6:3-5; Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:46-48; 19:1-5. In law, a pledge, dear friends, is something of value, (think earnest money and down payment) and for the Christian believer the old nature has no value at all. The sin nature cannot be a pledge for anything, nor can it make a pledge. (Two definitions of the word, although the sense is worded like the first, the legal idea of putting aside something of value.)

They do a bit of what I call version smorgasbording, trying to find a version that fits their doctrines du jour, so instead of the true pure Bible verse:

1 Peter 3:21 (AV)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Where the answer of a good conscience is our repentance and faith response to God's calling (Hebrews 6:1-2), which had been a part of the foundational teaching in the 1970s, at times using material like the Apostles's Doctrine material of S. R. Hanby.

Hebrews 6:1-2 (AV)
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
let us go on unto perfection;
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,
and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms,
and of laying on of hands,
and of resurrection of the dead,
and of eternal judgment.

allowing that the answer may imply, in the full New Testament teaching, profession of faith and entrance into covenant.

Homestead Heritage would prefer to rummage through corruption versions and come up with the word pledge from a weaker text. So here they might go to the NIV. (Notice the paucity of information, simply putting in a verse number.) Yet, even with that error, there is no way to make that into "a pledge of the old nature".

And this could not have been an oversight on their part. For one, they go over such public writing time and time and time again internally (often their writing feels like circles within circles). And this strange fire doctrinal element was pointed out publicly about three years back.

(Note, btw, that they do not even hint at remission of sins in this public statement, although they do include the main Acts verses that are historically connected with the apostolic water baptism doctrines of the name of Jesus and remission of sins.)

My understanding and experiences is that Homestead Heritage does do watch internet discussions closely, although only with carefully vetted individuals doing the watching. Most of the members (we did not have membership in my years, now they have various levels of membership and lots of paperwork) do not have internet access. This is simply an observation, not a criticism, but one effect is to shield them from doctrinal discussions that might be embarrassing, like this pledge or the yahweh and yahshua intrusions, or their shifting sand Bible version positions.

There is more to say about their water baptism, and other posts, and other doctrinal changes, however, I believe this doozy of "a pledge of the old nature" needs careful note. And this forum should be especially qualified to give solid feedback.

There is an even greater concern about their water baptism doctrinal changes.

Steven

[Esaias]

Brother Avery, what do you think led them down these paths? Was it just drifting too far from the shore, or is there more, like an agenda of some kind on the part of leadership? Who, in fact, are the leadership?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I have only heard bad things about the place. Looks great from the outside until you start peeling layers....

Attention: Consider the source. For those who don't know this poster this post would be taken at face value. But let's consider something. One ILG most certainly doesn't approve of anything that has the words "holiness," "Apostolic," and "conservative." Now that I mentioned that, let me move onto this, we just had a sister visit there. She thought it was alright. Yet, still that is one person. Concerning religion in any shape or form it must be experienced by the individual. Because look, if I make statements about someone, let's use ILG. Or Emma Boatanchor , you may or may not accept my view. You may know this poster personally, which gives you a different view or make you nod your head with an affirmative. I have been having some tough breaks of late. Some who love me, have reached out in some amazing ways, some who hate me just jab the pin into their dolls a little harder, and those who are indifferent towards me aren't even phased. So when this forum barbecues churches, pastors, or Pentecostal communes just take it all with a grain of salt. Not only consider the source, but do your own research if you are interested. Get your own hands dirty, do your own heavy lifting. Experience you receive would be the best witness. I understand that you can't always do that, and must go by what others say. Then in that case make sure you weigh all sides through the leading of the Holy Ghost and trusted, time proven godly elders.

[Steven Avery]

Attention: Consider the source. Amen. Always a good idea.

we just had a sister visit there. She thought it was alright. They have the two-day (used to be 3-day, they dropped the Sunday) Thanksgiving fair.
Also a special song-fest on the December holi-day, holly-day period.

When I went to the concert in 2009, the Thanksgiving fair, they actually mangled the song "Days of Elijah", substituting the dark-side name "yahweh" (or oy-vey as I prefer to use) in the majestic and beautiful "No God but Jehovah" chorus. And I literally ran the aisles .. OUT .. of the tent, impelled by the Holy Spirit, as it came upon me as a heavy spiritual assault. Thank you Lord Jesus for your protecting hand.

============

A little aside:
When I went to the Fair in 2009, I inquired about the availability of a Bible, to buy in the shop, or read, or be given. Nothing was available except a child's Greek workbook for sale, using the corruption Westcott-Hort recension text. This, I believe, is a result of their shifting sand Version view, plus their hopes over the years to put out their own version. Plus the elevation of their own literature. (Very different from the 70s and early 80s.)

I have been having some tough breaks of late. Some who love me, have reached out in some amazing ways ... That part is wonderful to hear. I am trying to job my memory on some contacts we may have had years back, just sent you a message. (Thanks for responding, my memories seem to be mixing people.)

So when this forum barbecues churches, pastors, or Pentecostal communes just take it all with a grain of salt. Not only consider the source, but do your own research if you are interested. Get your own hands dirty, do your own heavy lifting. Experience you receive would be the best witness. I understand that you can't always do that, and must go by what others say. Then in that case make sure you weigh all sides through the leading of the Holy Ghost and trusted, time proven godly elders. Amen.

With Homestead Heritage there are a few special elements. Major and critical parts of their teaching and worship are kept away from the inquiring newbie. So the due diligence has some obstacles.

And I do believe that Homestead Heritage came forth with a true Holy Spirit calling and anointing. And there are many disaffected nattering nabobs of negativity whose barbecue words should only be used for chestnut fires. And I would love to see them maintain the good elements that they have, and restore that which the canker worm has eaten.

Joel 2:25
And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten,
the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm,
my great army which I sent among you.

====================

Here is an invitation that Homestead Heritage put forth, that those who are concerned about some of their doctrines should avoid sensational accusations and instead should be:

"openly contesting our actual beliefs on intellectual or religious grounds"

Response to Criticism
https://response.homesteadheritage.com/ And that is the approach I have tried to be very careful to take.

Yours in the wonderful and majestic name of Jesus!

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Brother Avery, what do you think led them down these paths? Was it just drifting too far from the shore, or is there more, like an agenda of some kind on the part of leadership? These are big questions. Allow me to pass for now, as we continue with some doctrinal examinations.

Who, in fact, are the leadership? Well, the fellership began with Blair and Regina Adams in the early 70s in New York. An eldership developed which really had a lot of the day-to-day functional authority. I'm not sure if you are asking about names or legal structure or what. And I could only answer without full precision. They do have some legal entities, like the Institute for Sustainable Culture, where you can read the names of officers. They are not very transparent on these issues. Part of that relates to the clashes where the government wants to intrude.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I heard that in their sanctuary there is a sign with the name Yahweh.

How much Hebrew Roots are in this group.

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://response.homesteadheritage.com/for-the-sake-of-the-children/

[Evang.Benincasa]

I just spoke with a visitor who went there during the New Years. It was brought to my knowledge that they are Apostolic Pentecostal. They use the name Jesus and aren't sacred name Hebrew roots. The mainstream media attacked them because it makes for ratings and viewers. Meaning don't have a commune because if you do you may be maligned. This happened to the 12 Tribes community in their early years. David Koresh and his people were burned to death because of accusations.

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://response.homesteadheritage.com/for-the-sake-of-the-children/

Everyone needs to watch this video.

Not only because of the group, but to show how News Media is a fraud. Fake News 101.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I think you'll find some people on here who are not so thrilled with this place, if I remember right.

Who cares.

"I think you'll find some people on here who are not so thrilled with_____, if I remember right."

Just fill in the blanks boys and girls. Hey, even insert your own name. I especially love the end of quote. You know where they allude to the haters, but can't actually remember the situation correctly. When we all stand at the judgement seat of Christ, will we remember our mercy we gave out to others?

[Evang.Benincasa]

These places scare me to death. For one they scare me in their own right but also because of the black eye they give Christianity in general.

Wonder where this poster is today?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Sherri is correct. You need to dig a little deeper.

I saw that same "nirvana" appearnce in the TV interviews with the wives and children of that polygmist sect that got raided in Texas last year and the kids taken.

The women looked like Little House on The Prairie moms. As wholesome as any Pentecostal woman. They led simple lives devoted to their religion and were VERY seperated from the "world" in their VERY modest dress standard.

The Waco bunch this thread is about are not into polygmy but they are into control. I have observed some of it first hand. Blair came out of Kenneth Phillips church in Austin a long, long time ago. Around the late 70's or if in the 80's it was before '83.

Unless they have change in the last 15 years they are big time into "shunning". They are really nice to visitors and customers but they are not seeing the reality of the situation.

I observed a really funny situation with that group involving the "shunning" back in the early 1990's.

CC1 what do you think about "shunning?"

[Evang.Benincasa]

it is very close to a cult.


My father (atheist) use to roar with laughter when religious people use this sentence. Hey, I have used it in discussions with my old dad in the past. He would throw his head back and laugh. Everyone is bad, but I am good. Everyone else is in a cult but I am not. Everyone else is in the wrong church but I am on the right hand of the Father. God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this Old Time Pentecostal. :laffatu

[Evang.Benincasa]

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner folks. It always amuses me when people visit these wacko cultish groups of people and come away all impressed and thinking they have created some kind of great thing.

But you are part of a religion? So, you have governing rules of the religion. You also have religious leadership (shoeless, but leadership all the same) who you grant honor and respect. Who you would "submit" to, to some degree. It is all the same stuff, one is communal, one isn't. What did Randy Wayne post? That these groups give Christianity a black eye? Funny, but guess what, nothing gives Christianity a black eye, the sincere seeker of knowledge and truth can circumvent the obstacles. While we point at others and claim they are the ones who are giving Jesus a black eye. We should look down and see are own bloody knuckles. You do know that all the non religious don't see any difference with any of us. They think we are all a bunch of mindless dupes.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Scares me too. History has shown the cloistered groups tend toward cultism and I mean of the psychological kind, not to mention scary heresies. We need only look at Jim Jones, Koresh, the polygamists and so on. This stuff started way back with the montanists

Prax, all religious groups whether communal or non can lean towards cultism. Do you know of any non communal groups who were cult like? Had leadership who controlled the followers. Some to a horrible end? You would have to say yes. Sorry, but religion across the board in all of her flavors can and are misused. It is the sad fact. I have heard horror stories about different preachers, churches, and groups. But when you investigate you either find that it was a lie, or that it was true. But, still forums stink at coming to the truth about certain personal subjects. HH I don't know anything about them. Just recently it was being brought to my attention by folks in the church. Did I tell these saints, "wait, let me check the forum to see what they have to say?" ah, no.

Because I have learned real well over the years that the forum isn't too swift on representation. :heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

I agree with you in every sense of the word...CULT...

and that is not to say all the people there are evil that is far from the truth...however the doctrine taught there is evil and far from truth.




https://media1.tenor.com/images/0562ded117922b0f32dc988d76c7e910/tenor.gif?itemid=5385689

[Evang.Benincasa]

This is new to me. I have never seen this before yet I have heard recently of another experiment, similar to this, that is looking to start up in another state.

Are these people from Apostolic backgrounds? Jesus name folks?

TJJJ

No, they are people who made the mistake to go communal.

Years later they would be hung up by their thumbs and have the flesh ripped from their bones. Hey Brother Steve Avery, hats off to you for sitting through and reading all of this. 10 years ago this forum made my rock'em sock'em postings look like Mother Teresa with extra sweetener. :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

no one would like to know what I know about that place...I don´t plan to go into details...however it would be easy to be swept away from an outside veiw...living there is another thing...
Of course some people like others to make their decisions...

Don't take me wrong Sister Alvear, but I got to use these posts.

Let me tell you that starting a discussion about anyone, a business, a church, a school, with "no one would like to know what I know about THAT PLACE, or THAT BROTHER, or THAT SISTER, or THAT FAMILY. Just leads us to believe that God only knows what you know, and it sure ain't good. You tag the end with the outside is Jesus on the mainline, but living there is Pinhead in Hellraiser two? Listen I love you sis, and know this is 10 years ago posting. Just pointing this out to show an example how a series of posts can get away from us.


Sherri when are you joining?....ha....love you.

If by believing you were going to hell was all...it would be ok....however there is a lot more to it than that.

No one would like to know what Sister Alvear knows about that place?

Sister Alvear, I am just glad you know noting about me. :lol

A religion that destroys families and ruins lives is not the religion of the Kingdom.
I have lots of their books and writings and know them personally...I want nothing to do with what goes on behind closed doors...Jesus came to set the captives free not make captives and brain wash people and have closed door services...I could tell you a lot about the closed door services at Waco...my advice...stay away...

Sis, the imagination of man is good enough. Like my old pap and mom use to say, "you said just enough to destroy the witnesses." You see, you have made comments here that even though you don't give details (which we would be able to verify,) you hint to the horrible. I didn't see any posts (might of missed them) of posters defending this group. So, pretty much your vague testimony stands.



If someone wants a christian community I really think that is nice as long as it is CHRISTIAN.


I agree with you in every sense of the word...CULT...

and that is not to say all the people there are evil that is far from the truth...however the doctrine taught there is evil and far from truth.

Sister, let me say this, modern Christianity is based more on opinion than book, chapter, and verse. In the immortal words of one pastor's wife, "make your words soft and sweet, for in one day you may have to eat." There doctrine is evil? Really? Anywhere in this thread have you proven how evil it really is? You said you have books by Blair Adams. How many have you read? What did you find within these books that cause you to accuse them of evil?

[Evang.Benincasa]

LOL! That name doesn't scare me as much as "Janet Reno".


I miss ChTatum. :)

[Evang.Benincasa]

and everything they said about HH is true and much more...

Wow, Sister Alvear?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/64a3502500c80bacf67ce7a090b35f78/tenor.gif?itemid=9904858

[Evang.Benincasa]

I remember in the late seventies, going to Austin to visit with KP about soulwinning, AM sent us there from the church in Plano, TX.

Howard Wheeler was very much involved at the time, we met with him over lunch to talk about reaching out.

Some time before that I remember him preaching at The Wide World of Pentecost in Fort Worth, TX, he preached barefoot, I guess he was still a hippie. It is so unfortunate that all that passion could not be guided in a sustainable direction, the organization just had no clue on how to lead them. Nor was KP or MH equipped either, as much as they desired to do so. Then HW goes to Waco and becomes a modern day hippie in a commune.

CC1 look at this? :heeheehee

[Steven Avery]

I just spoke with a visitor who went there during the New Years. It was brought to my knowledge that they are Apostolic Pentecostal. They use the name Jesus and aren't sacred name Hebrew roots. Yes and no. :) They are now their own peculiar hybrid in terms of names. (I won't go into the Apostolic Pentecostal question here, note though my earlier post about water baptism doctrinal changes.)

And externally they want to cultivate the Christian appearance, so to Christian visitors Jesus is always the go-to name.

And the only faux name I have seen that they put on the net is the Yahweh Lives album by Spring of Hope, which is not on their website, but is in Amazon and various music spots. Not sure about the videos, whether or not they slip in any faux names. And I would conjecture the word comes down to stay with Jesus in anything for public consumption.

==============

Here is one key.

The fervent prayer is in the name of yahweh, not the name of Jesus. And this prayer can be quite fervent, with the rooms a-ringing.

Hush-hush is the rule when it comes down to yahweh-bondage. However, a lot of this is in their internal literature. And I privately really tried to gently point out to them the ultra-dubious scholarship and problematic logic in their literature. After a season, they just came up with an excuse to drop the conversation. Only then did I really begin to write about this publicly. Especially after 2016, up to which point I was still working with some side-channel personal contact.

And they weave "yahshua" in and out with the name of Jesus. Yes, even in the baptism. The reports I received included baptism using Jesus and yahshua together, and also using simply yahshua. Ultra-reliable reports, not from contras.

They never told me about these changes when I visited in the years from about 1995 to 2009, or in a mini-visit in 2013. (In fact, in some early year, I was stumbling around considering some "Sacred Name" usages. And one gentleman in the ministry properly emphasized the name of Jesus as counterpoint, there is power in the name of Jesus! So there can be some ironies.)

If you study out what and who is yahweh, and how yahshua is a total non-name that was created in the 1930s by USA know-nothing sacred namers only to match yahweh, you should begin to realize how serious is this situation. I have one thread in this forum pointing out that yahweh is actually the dark-side entity Jupiter, the enemy of Hebrew and Christian faith (e.g. Acts 14.)

The mainstream media attacked them because it makes for ratings and viewers....This happened to the 12 Tribes community in their early years. And I remember the first front page article in the New York Times, reporting from Vermont. Later, I used to meet Twelve Tribes in Central Park in NYC, Israel Day, and Flushing Meadow Park in Queens (Billy Graham shindig.) My last visit was up in their community upstate by the Vermont-NY border, east of Saratoga Springs. Time was limited, and I left when I realized they were going to pray to yahshua before the meal. However, I probably could have awkwardly absented myself from the prayer and stayed for dinner.

At one time I had a vigorous email communication with them about the faux Zeus anti-Jesus idea in their literature, and after some back and forth they even agreed that it should not be in their literature. However, they tried to leave themselves an out or two, so i am not sure to what degree they actually did drop the phony Zeus thing.

Yours in Jesus wonderful name,
Steven

[jediwill83]

Apathetic Christianity is what gives Christ the black eyes....

[Evang.Benincasa]

Apathetic Christianity is what gives Christ the black eyes....

Luke Skywalker refusing to train a future generation of Jedi is just sad. :foottap

[Evang.Benincasa]

https://www.homesteadheritage.com/beliefs/

—We renounce religious coercion or the forcing of conscience in any way.

Doesn't sound like a Svengali cult to me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

—We believe church government arises from a relational form of internalized and noncoercive authority based on consent and emerging from within the local church and associated churches or else spontaneously emerging from a founding ministry. In short, we are of the “free church” or the “believers’ church” tradition. We also believe in a plurality of leaders arranged in the living and relational order given by God in the New Testament.

Doesn't look like a despotic dictatorship to me. :)

[diakonos]

Hmm

[jediwill83]

Luke Skywalker refusing to train a future generation of Jedi is just sad. :foottap




Well in the Legends Universe he did...and also in the official canon but then there was that dustup with Ben Solo...so the church split...Luke backslid and Ben Solo started his own church while proselytizing Lukes students...I mean uh his best tithe payers...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Well in the Legends Universe he did...and also in the official canon but then there was that dustup with Ben Solo...so the church split...Luke backslid and Ben Solo started his own church while proselytizing Lukes students...I mean uh his best tithe payers...

While Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, and Emperor Palpatine started a commune.

[Wilsonwas]

—We believe church government arises from a relational form of internalized and noncoercive authority based on consent and emerging from within the local church and associated churches or else spontaneously emerging from a founding ministry. In short, we are of the “free church” or the “believers’ church” tradition. We also believe in a plurality of leaders arranged in the living and relational order given by God in the New Testament.

Doesn't look like a despotic dictatorship to me. :)

Sounds like they have read some L. Spooner....perhaps...the verbiage seems familier.

And...since I think I forgot to point it out - it is good to see you posting bro.

[Steven Avery]

Back in 2017, we had a thread that is helpful for understanding how Homestead Heritage got into the yahweh mess, since it shows what is really behind the push for yahweh.

Apostolic Friends Forum
connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50557

======================

And some of my research notes are online here:

Jehovah or "yahweh" ?
yahweh==jove and is a pagan devil
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?95-yahweh-jove-and-is-a-pagan-devil

the Homestead Heritage paradox
the plague of yahwehism
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?88-the-plague-of-yahwehism

[jediwill83]

Back in 2017, we had a thread that is helpful for understanding how Homestead Heritage got into the yahweh mess, since it shows what is really behind the push for yahweh.

Apostolic Friends Forum
connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50557

======================

And some of my research notes are online here:

Jehovah or "yahweh" ?
yahweh==jove and is a pagan devil
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?95-yahweh-jove-and-is-a-pagan-devil

the Homestead Heritage paradox
the plague of yahwehism
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?88-the-plague-of-yahwehism




Looking forward to the education. Thanks for posting the links to the articles.

[jediwill83]

While Darth Vader, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, and Emperor Palpatine started a commune.


Death metal drum circle anyone?

[Steven Avery]

Looking forward to the education. Thanks for posting the links to the articles. yw.

And I am interested in any feedback.

On the question of the yahweh and yahshua plague --

i see yahweh sneaking in as a poison in the Christian body of believers. Including apostolic circles. Today, I picked up an Authorized Version from Thomas Nelson and they had stuck this devil entity right into a chapter introduction. Bye bye to that AV.

However, with Homestead Heritage it is more significant because the usage is not incidental, they are extremely fervent in prayer, song and worship. And the counterfeit Yahshua elbowed into the water baptism. Thus the buffeting from this dark-side entity can lead to false prophecy, imprecatory prayers and all sorts of spiritual misdirection. When eternity calls, you want to be calling on the Lord Jesus Christ, not a dark-side entity.

================

For those who are anti-vax, I would equate the poison of yahweh to the many poisons that are put into the vaccinations.
Potentially crippling, and able to cause harm quickly, or in the long run.

================

Many would like to make light of this concern, after all there are "scholars" who claim it is hunky-dory. Its not. Today, we are accountable.

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Their Fair comes up in a few days. In many ways it is a fine experience. Walking and fresh air, crafts and homesteading, generally healthy food, allowing that they had one of the bad sweeteners a few years back. Lots of family-fun experience. No real pressure to buy stuff. Maybe bargains at the end (at least, they did that when they used to have a Sunday day.) For me, a couple of visits in recent years were generally wonderful. The homestead and community vision was, I believe, truly originally a Christian vision. And I was there in the 1970s so I speak from experience! :) btw, afaik they have managed to stay vax-free, a wonderful health pattern in the community.

==============

However, please be careful.

The yahweh-worship situation seems to be getting more and more ossified as part of their spiritual mess. Yahweh is Jupiter (jove-pater, so Jupiter is yahweh-father), the devil entity of Acts 14 and 19, pagan temples dedicated, even the Samaritan Temple. And even related to the abomination of desolation. And this entity is the center of their worship, Jesus lagging behind. Now this false name is even placed on the front cover of a book that is publicly available, blaring "Yahweh" in bold letters. This is Knowing God by Name, in their bookstore. In the past they kept that type of stuff internal.

In 2009, when we were still quite friendly (I consistently try to reach out to the brethren and even at that time we talked of reconnecting) I sat by my close friend Barry in a big tent at the Fair and the musicians were singing Days of Elijah. They grossly mangled the song, it was sickening, changing the beautiful majestic chorus "No God but Jehovah" to lift up the dark-side name. The Holy Spirit impelled me to RUN the aisles... out of the tent! Be careful, it is a spiritual assault. No compromise with darkness.

They have ways to try to make people into yahweh-worshippers, especially in their prayer rooms, where the dark-side name is a-ringing. They have even asked when in prayer together ... to stop praying unto Jesus and switch over to the yahweh-focus. Oops. Ugh.

Their book stuff on the topics of yahweh and yahshua are very weak. A type of sacred name ignorance, combined with other elements. Sophistry would be kind. Ironically, they even acknowledge that they do not really know the name ... so why are they drawing people into such creepy worship?

By contrast, you can know that Jehovah/Yehovah is the tetragram with 100% conviction and faith, and that Jesus is the Messiah's name, not to be weakened and combined with some pseudo-Hebrew gibberish. The evidences are powerful and crystal clear.

And they put the author name of Blair Adams on writings that clearly came from others, especially Joel Stein (writing styles and earlier writings make this clear.) This mistaken attribution makes it harder for Homestead Heritage to move to the simple and beautiful truths of Jehovah (JHVH) and Jesus, dumping the counterfeit clumps, yahweh and yahshua. The potential change unto truth might look like a challenge to the wisdom and authority of Blair, and that is a no-go (he is looked up to with reverence, so how could he make such a fundamental error for so many years?). It is all sad, because Blair and Regina Adams were not really the yahweh-yahshua pushers, they got caught up in the web. We know how these spiritual diseases, yahweh-yahshua, came into Homestead Heritage. Blair and Regina were dragged along, and I would share that it was a type of silent coup by the priests of yahweh. (Blair should have kept faith with his Authorized Version, that alone would have provided spiritual protection and understanding.) Their sons, especially Asahel and Alexander, were caught in the middle.

And, yes, we made various efforts to reach out to them, to study iron sharpeneth. Ultimately they got stuck. They even give "prophecies", including false prophecies, in the name of that entity. (Their out was to put the onus on the individual giving the false prophecy, they never dug to the yahweh-root problem.) And they have so much literature and "revelation" invested in the false names, it has been too hard to overcome.

They even added the decrepit gibberish "Yahshua" .. despoiling the water baptism, for which they also changed the purpose away from remission of sins in their public SOF. (Now a "pledge of the old nature", a really weird and puzzling heresy.)

Their Bible situation is a similar disaster (you will not find one in their internet bookstore, and I could not find one to buy or receive in my visits.) For many years they planned to do their own version, the better to hoodwink the unwary, choosing whatever words fit their doctrines from the smorgasbord of available versions, often choosing text and/or translation from the decrepit Westcott-Hort corruption versions. In fact, their roots were largely Authorized Version, in the beginning. Now they are "any version is fine, and be sure to listen to the elders." (Paraphrase from a friend who was involved quite recently.)

You might study a bit and try to have an honest, transparent discussion with some of the leaders, or members. Wish you well if you try. However, they are very skilled in techniques of deflection and diversion. (And they try to prep the members for all the more penetrating and tricky questions.) History can be rewritten. Be forewarned, be focused. Be armed with the scriptures, put on the armor of God, have your Authorized Version close to your heart, read by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thank you, Jesus! :)

Psalm 83:18 (AV)
That men may know that thou,
whose name alone is JEHOVAH,
art the most high over all the earth.

Philippians 2:9-10 (AV)
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him,
and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven,
and things in earth,
and things under the earth;

Steven

[Nicodemus1968]

I’m about 1.5 hrs South from Waco, TX and planning on visiting Heritage Homestead. Looking forward to all the crafts and activities after Thanksgiving. Ive read what a lot of you think about the Homestead, my best advice is “eat the meat, throw away the bones.”

[Sister Alvear]

Best advice is do not get involved...

[Steven Avery]

I’m about 1.5 hrs South from Waco, TX and planning on visiting Heritage Homestead. Looking forward to all the crafts and activities after Thanksgiving. Ive read what a lot of you think about the Homestead, my best advice is “eat the meat, throw away the bones.” You can have a fine time at the Fair.

And I would say that they originally had a calling to bring forth a message involving community, homesteading and five-fold ministry to the church. Those gifts and callings are without repentance, they remain.

Today, however, it is very easy for true Christian Bible-believers to see major gaps ... where they have left Christian faith, embracing yahwehistic gnosticism. The Bible is to them impure, a hybrid hodge-podge, more a tool to point to the current eldership rhema than the pure scriptures actually being the bedrock of faith.

By the grace and mercy of the Lord Jesus, may they return to Christian faith.

Enjoy your weekend!

[diakonos]

I’m about 1.5 hrs South from Waco, TX and planning on visiting Heritage Homestead. Looking forward to all the crafts and activities after Thanksgiving. Ive read what a lot of you think about the Homestead, my best advice is “eat the meat, throw away the bones.”

Drink the water, not the Kool Aid.

[Nicodemus1968]

Drink the water, not the Kool Aid.

I feel better now, thanks Diakonos

[Tithesmeister]

Sister Alvear is the resident expert on HH, she has lived there and I believe her mother still lives there.

I have visited there, we enjoyed the food and the tours, they make some fabulous fine furniture. We sensed an underlying bondage and legalism, also question why most of the residents live in mobile homes, when they are such artisans and craftsmen?

Many of the folks came from the NY area with the founder Blair Adams.

Sister Alvear, did you really live there?

And did your mother?

This seems off?

[Sister Alvear]

No I did not live there but was closely associated with them for a time...my missionary mother lived there and is buried there...I became associated with them because of her. There are many good things there ...I love farming and simple life but I do not agree with their doctrines as a whole. Many of the people are the sweetest people you could ever meet but are in a system that is in my simple opinion very cruel. I don't like shunning for one thing...Of course there might be a time for that but not because someone leaves a fellowship...It is hard to explain ...

[Sister Alvear]

I pray for them always...

[consapente89]

Isn't there a doctrine there as relating to the leaders being divine? Or that their leaders are the only ones that are divinely inspired? Or something of that nature?

[Armapeet.Singh]

I’m about 1.5 hrs South from Waco, TX and planning on visiting Heritage Homestead. Looking forward to all the crafts and activities after Thanksgiving. Ive read what a lot of you think about the Homestead, my best advice is “eat the meat, throw away the bones.”

You musts be careful of this heritical group that prays in another name than Jesus!!

Please, be carefuls o f their shops! They haves devils in their houses. When you visit thier cheese house, as you walk down to the bottom, feel the air.... lift your hands and praise Jesus and all of a sudden you will feel an attack from ..... something!

[TJJJ]

You musts be careful of this heritical group that prays in another name than Jesus!!

Please, be carefuls o f their shops! They haves devils in their houses. When you visit thier cheese house, as you walk down to the bottom, feel the air.... lift your hands and praise Jesus and all of a sudden you will feel an attack from ..... something!

Idiot!

[diakonos]

Idiot!

Mhmm :foottap

[Steven Avery]

Isn't there a doctrine there as relating to the leaders being divine? Or that their leaders are the only ones that are divinely inspired? Or something of that nature?That is pretty close. Although the word 'divine' is a bit edgy.

And, conceptually, their leadership could have had the calling to really give God's message to the church. It all turned upside-down however, when their central focus came to be:

yahweh-yahshua (with Jesus being a lesser, or different, form of yahshua)
Jehovah was no longer to appear, anywhere (just as we were actually learning that the name Jehovah is 100% true.)

their Bible moorings shipwrecked

From an original Authorized Version emphasis from the Blair Adams southern Pentecostal heritage off to various corruption versions, off to trying to make their own version, to pick-and-choose smorgasbording, off to total confusion.
In essence, their own eldership writings became more important than the pure scriptures. They were told they could use any version (even the new age Message showed up in homes.)

With those elements, they can not have a pure message for the church. Simply impossible. However, the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, and you may pick up solid teachings and sharings on points like homesteading and community. Even their five-fold ministry teaching has excellent points, now damaged at the core by calling on the dark-side name and losing the pure Bible moorings.

Steven

[Steven Avery]

You musts be careful of this heritical group that prays in another name than Jesus!!

Please, be careful of their shops! They haves devils in their houses. When you visit thier cheese house, as you walk down to the bottom, feel the air.... lift your hands and praise Jesus and all of a sudden you will feel an attack from ..... something!These are strong words, and may well represent Armapeet's exprience.

The Homestead Heritage group is sort of syncretistic, with a Christian heritage now buffeted by the yahweh-worship, yahshua, and the loss of pure Bible moorings.

Since I knew my friends, the brothers and sisters, when we were almost fully Christian, in the 1970s to the early 1980s, I walked around the Fairs of 2009 and 2013, and visits in 2016 and 2017, with fun and freedom, most of the time. (Similarly in my earlier days of visits in the 1990s, although often those were involved with other doctrinal issues, even the 7th-day sabbath .)

Except for the time in 2009, when I ran out of the worship tent while they mangled Days of Elijah to "no god but yahweh". That was intense.

Well, I did get booted out in 2017, because I had become the voice of truth about their changes. :) After many years of cordial sharing, where they had directly asked me to explain my beliefs on Jehovah and the Authorized Version.

In 2017 poor Gary threatened the cops (I was just shopping in the food store after walking around a bit) while Tony said "repent, repent". It was sort of strange, since they really need to repent of yahweh-worship.

They do monitor forums like this one, although only certain people would have that authority and allowance. So any writing here is for their benefit as well as the apostolic community.

[TJJJ]

Mhmm :foottap

Lol, well he is.....!

[Steven Avery]

Lol, well he is.....!Putting aside Homestead Heritage, have you ever been involved with the old time “Sacred Namers” .. or ”Qodesh Namers?” The ones who lift up yahweh and yahshua and attack the name of Jesus as pagan?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Putting aside Homestead Heritage, have you ever been involved with the old time “Sacred Namers” .. or ”Qodesh Namers?” The ones who lift up yahweh and yahshua and attack the name of Jesus as pagan?

I do down here in Broward and Dade county.

[Evang.Benincasa]

These are strong words, and may well represent Armapeet's exprience.

The Homestead Heritage group is sort of syncretistic, with a Christian heritage now buffeted by the yahweh-worship, yahshua, and the loss of pure Bible moorings.

Since I knew my friends, the brothers and sisters, when we were almost fully Christian, in the 1970s to the early 1980s, I walked around the Fairs of 2009 and 2013, and visits in 2016 and 2017, with fun and freedom, most of the time. (Similarly in my earlier days of visits in the 1990s, although often those were involved with other doctrinal issues, even the 7th-day sabbath .)

Except for the time in 2009, when I ran out of the worship tent while they mangled Days of Elijah to "no god but yahweh". That was intense.

Well, I did get booted out in 2017, because I had become the voice of truth about their changes. :) After many years of cordial sharing, where they had directly asked me to explain my beliefs on Jehovah and the Authorized Version.

In 2017 poor Gary threatened the cops (I was just shopping in the food store after walking around a bit) while Tony said "repent, repent". It was sort of strange, since they really need to repent of yahweh-worship.

They do monitor forums like this one, although only certain people would have that authority and allowance. So any writing here is for their benefit as well as the apostolic community.

Homestead heritage uses the word Yahshua?

[Steven Avery]

I do down here in Broward and Dade county.Marshall (Moshe the K) I think is based done there, one of the national ganzamachers. He ‘prophesied’ that the Hebrew NT would be found in Judea or Samaria ‘Real Soon Now’.

Around 20 years back I attended one of the sacred name conferences, in Scranton. I only made a cameo appearance, Marshall was claiming healings in the faux name. I felt the queasy pit that this claim was not from the Holy Spririt. Similar to what Armapeet shared.

Michael Rood used to claim similar, fortunately he finally dumped the yahweh clump. His teachings remain uneven, but at least he shook the yahweh devil. He was helped by the contact with Nehemia Gordon.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Marshall (Moshe the K) I think is based done there, one of the national ganzamachers. He ‘prophesied’ that the Hebrew NT would be found in Judea or Samaria ‘Real Soon Now’.

Around 20 years back I attended one of the sacred name conferences, in Scranton. I only made a cameo appearance, Marshall was claiming healings in the faux name. I felt the queasy pit that this claim was not from the Holy Spririt. Similar to what Armapeet shared.

Michael Rood used to claim similar, fortunately he finally dumped the yahweh clump. His teachings remain uneven, but at least he shook the yahweh devil. He was helped by the contact with Nehemia Gordon.

I know the Nehemia Gordon insanity all too well, plus the Michael Rood baloney. I don't know the Marshall individual you brought up. But I have heard the whole Hebrew New Testament is supposed to be found soon.
We have quiet a few Yahwehists and Yashuites down here. I really enjoy having discussions with them when we got a good crowd. I had one get pretty mad at me. I could of fried an egg on his head, but for the life of me I couldn't understand why he got so livid.

[Steven Avery]

Homestead heritage uses the word Yahshua?Yep. It is very sad. Even in water baptism, either instead of or in a confusion combination with Jesus. (And I have received both reports, super-reliably, possible representing different time periods.)

This was never a part in my time of involvement (we had no memberships) in the 70s and 80s. There was a tiny bit of Yeshua in Messianic songs like those of Lamb, or "Mayim, mayim.." Sweet music, and Yeshua is in fact the right Hebrew name. Yahshua is simply gibberish, connected to the dark-side yahweh.

And when I visited and corresponded from the late 90s (or perhaps post 2000) to c. 2015, they actually kept this new entrance of Yahshua totally hidden. Its funny, because in the 1990s I dabbled in the "Sacred Name" movement, however I never came against the name of Jesus. (Joel Stein even helped at one point, saying there was power in the name of Jesus in a personal conference.)

And I was informed by various friends who had left the fellership about the meeting where Yahshua was given a type of revelation anointing, accepted tentatively by Regina (and Blair) ... which all led to the baptism disaster, and a general sense that the name of Jesus was second-fiddle.

Beyond that, their baptism doctrine on their online SOF (statement of faith) is an unmitigated disaster. Nothing about remission of sins, instead you read about a "pledge of the old nature", a really creative and abominable heresy, which itself is partially built on a corruption version translation error. Error begets error.

(One pastor friend surprisingly ran into the zeus canard when visiting at the Fair, but it was all a little muddled, so it may have simply been a little aberration, or talking about other groups ... not a position ever officially stated or considered. Or perhaps an unofficial fringe idea. I actually had a major correspondence to correct Twelve Tribes away from that error.)

And now you can find Yahshua in some of the Homestead Heritage literature. Generally this was internal literature, however one major writing seems to be now available in their internet bookstore, the book that blares out "Oy-veh" on the cover. (It can be an abomination to even mention, they are calling that dark-side entity God, so I have changed the name to something similar, Yiddish for a pain.)

In a spiritual sense .. this was a major part of their ride down the tubes. Blair and Regina Adams had always respected the Authorized Version, but Blair let himself get hoodwinked. Yes, I made efforts to help, even attempting to go around the more obstinate and hardened priests of yahweh. And I only went directly public (discussing the weaknesses of Homestead Heritage on these fundamentals) when they showed themselves essentially reprobate on these issues. They never came against my beliefs directly, but came up with the quirky idea that I was "holding a doctrine in a heretical way". Quite a doozy :).

Yet, it had always been my hope that they would recover, quietly.

We had corresponded on and off for about 10 years, starting from c. 2005 when they had asked me to explain why I held the Authorized Version and Jehovah beliefs. (And I had defended them in the 'Factnet Wars' on the net forum, which they appreciated.) Thus the Holy Spirit gave me the special calling to share the truth with them, in love, which still remains today.

It is possible that around 2005 they were sincerely reexamining their positions (not convictions, since they had lost those about the true supremacy of the names of Jesus and Jehovah, and also on the pure Bible their position was a muddled mess.) And I cannot say if their request for me to share was part of an honest reevaluation, or more a feint to assert their authority and for my beliefs to be challenged and weakened. In fact, the result was a time of strengthening on my end. Remember, for an honest reevaluation they would really have to stop praying in the name of yahweh. And I do not think this ever occurred. However, I do know a case where they were praying with a Pastor friend and they asked to stop the Jesus prayer, and move to praying to yahweh. Oops. Sounds a bit like what Armapeet shared above. (The gentleman, to his eternal credit, said no.)

Although there is always hope that they could have times of renewal and refreshing, especially if someone speaks directly, heart to heart, to Blair and Regina.

Really, what difference does it make if I was a vessel to share with them on these points? The truths are so simple and clear. And I simply would like to see my dozens of close friends, and hundreds or thousands more involved today, having the pure Bible and calling on the true names. And then, maybe, they really will have a lot of pure truth to offer to the Christians around the world - communities, apostolic, anabaptist, and others. Right now, they are a vacuum into the darkness of yahwehism, actually praying to that dark entity. Folks connecting with them may take one step forward, and two or more backwards!

===============

Lord Jesus, touch their hearts at Homestead Heritage, may they have times of renewing and refreshing! Lord Jesus, help them to push away childish and devilish nonsense. And bring them back to the pure word of God, the Authorized Version, the plumb-line of faith, way over and above the fellership writings and rhema.

In Jesus majestic and glorious name!

===============

Steven

[Steven Avery]

I know the Nehemia Gordon insanity all too well, plus the Michael Rood baloney. Nehemia is very good on Old Testament judaism, including the Hebrew Bible true pronunciation of the name Yehovah/Jehovah. And also he has spoken well on the yahwehistic paganism (Jupiter). Taken a lot of flak, as well. And I was at his first public teaching on this near Talpiot, Jerusalem in 2002. With lots of growth and follow-up. This was at Michael Rood's house :). Rood gave up the yahweh nonsense, pagan blunder, more than a decade later.

Also Nehemia can be good on OT issues like rejecting Talmudic-Rabbinic nonsense.

Yes, you can ignore his New Testament stuff, and it can be called baloney. Like the Hebrew Matthew blah-blah. And some other late medieval mss. in Hebrew, I think parts of Luke and John.

Most of the Michael Rood stuff can be ignored. However he is good on a couple of issues, the Ron Wyatt archaeology should be respected and studied earnestly.

I don't know the Marshall individual you brought up. But I have heard the whole Hebrew New Testament is supposed to be found soon. Marshall (Moshe) Yoseph Koniuchowsky. There might be a connection to the Beth Moshe Congretation in the North Miami area. A group called Your Arms to Israel and some Restoration edition of the "scriptures". However, Marshall seems to have moved to the Jacksonville area. This was the fellow I saw speaking in Scranton.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Nehemia is very good on Old Testament judaism, including the Hebrew Bible true pronunciation of the name Yehovah/Jehovah. And also he has spoken well on the yahwehistic paganism (Jupiter). Taken a lot of flak, as well. And I was at his first public teaching on this near Talpiot, Jerusalem in 2002. With lots of growth and follow-up. This was at Michael Rood's house :). Rood gave up the yahweh nonsense, pagan blunder, more than a decade later.

Also Nehemia can be good on OT issues like rejecting Talmudic-Rabbinic nonsense.

Yes, you can ignore his New Testament stuff, and it can be called baloney. Like the Hebrew Matthew blah-blah. And some other late medieval mss. in Hebrew, I think parts of Luke and John.

Most of the Michael Rood stuff can be ignored. However he is good on a couple of issues, the Ron Wyatt archaeology should be respected and studied earnestly.

Marshall (Moshe) Yoseph Koniuchowsky. There might be a connection to the Beth Moshe Congretation in the North Miami area. A group called Your Arms to Israel and some Restoration edition of the "scriptures". However, Marshall seems to have moved to the Jacksonville area. This was the fellow I saw speaking in Scranton.


Koniuchowsky!!! That joker created his own translation! I know that group, they are in North Dade. They believe that the book of Revelation, and the Gospel was originally written in Hebrew. They use their own Bible translation. They have an English translation and a Sanih translation. One of the brothers in our church works with one of these people. I asked to speak to him but the guy dodged meet up.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yep. It is very sad. Even in water baptism, either instead of or in a confusion combination with Jesus. (And I have received both reports, super-reliably, possible representing different time periods.)

Well, those guys are toast.

[Steven Avery]

Here is another one. I wrote to one of the elders about Yahshua and Yahweh. It was a cordial letter, and here are a couple of extracts:

Steven
March 9 and March 27, 2019

"yahweh" is really nothing more than the Jupiter of Acts 14 and 19, and the enemy of Hebraic and Christian faith through the ages ... there are forces at work that are preventing even an honest and sincere inquiry into how Homestead Heritage got mired in yahweh and yahshua, even in water baptism, with the emphasis really increasing around the 1990s. (My times of deep full involvement were late 1976 to c 1985.)

... And even when you increased the 'Yahweh-worship' and brought in 'Yahshua' around 1990, even into the water baptism, all in an increasing elbowing aside and usurpation from the Lord Jesus Christ. (Granted: Jesus never fully denied, just mixing oil and water, pure and impure.")

And he responded with a very weird accusation:

March 27, 2019
Abraham Adams:

"I must say that it greatly troubled me to see the ease with which you associate the Name of Jesus—Yahshua, with darkness and the devil."


This shows you how lost they are on the Yahshua-Yahweh name problems. And how highly they have placed the gibberish non-Hebrew "Yahshua".

And I did offer to Abraham, more than once, the opportunity to retract this weird and false accusation. However it still stands as a stain upon Abraham and upon Homestead Heritage.

To falsely accuse a Christian brother of attacking the name of Jesus is about as bad as it gets. Especially when my purpose was to assert the full authority of the name of Jesus!

Thank you, Jesus! Halleluyah. :)

================

Afaik, today they never really defend these blunders in any iron sharpeneth dialog. Their approach is mostly to point to the authority in the eldership (which members have signed up for, literally). They also have the diversion and distraction of trying to shoot the messenger. It is all very sad, and scholastically and spiritually dishonest.

================

Steven

[Tithesmeister]

I’m about 1.5 hrs South from Waco, TX and planning on visiting Heritage Homestead. Looking forward to all the crafts and activities after Thanksgiving. Ive read what a lot of you think about the Homestead, my best advice is “eat the meat, throw away the bones.”

So?

How was Heritage Homestead?

Give the report.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I’m about 1.5 hrs South from Waco, TX and planning on visiting Heritage Homestead. Looking forward to all the crafts and activities after Thanksgiving. Ive read what a lot of you think about the Homestead, my best advice is “eat the meat, throw away the bones.”

Eat the meat throw away the bones?

Is that how you roll?

[diakonos]

Eat the meat throw away the bones?

Is that how you roll?

Whoops!

[Steven Avery]

So?
How was Heritage Homestead?
Give the report.Usually it is quite an invigorating Fair. They are in the forefront of crafts, homesteading and similar concepts, that has been a valid vision since the 70s (Blair and Regina were reading Wendell Berry and visited The Farm in Summertown, TN. The fellership did visit the Amish and/or Mennonites in Pennsylvania, one church was in Linzer, PA, and there was a similar visit to Ware, MA, thinking of buying land). And the food is quite good and reasonably priced. We will see what Nicodemus1968 says. They go out of their way to be friendly, and are quite sincere.

They leave most of the yahweh stuff in the background, so as to keep the Christian visitors comfortable. Shhh, hush-hush, mush-mush As I understand, they all read a little guide-book as to how to answer questions. They try to give the impression that they have real top-notch scholarship behind their yahweh and yahshua disasters. However, what is in their books barely rises to the level of sophistry, and they never even claim even yahweh with conviction, just a possibility, and a non-promise. Note though that their public bookstore now has a book blaring "yahweh" on the cover. This is new, afaik, out of the dark closet.

One interesting point is trying to receive or buy a Bible. In my last visits it was not possible. They did point me to a corruption version Greek workbook that they use for teaching children Greek. As if that was a Bible.

Share away, Nicodemus1968, I believe it is very helpful to discern the pluses and minues.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Usually it is quite an invigorating Fair. They are in the forefront of crafts, homesteading and similar concepts, that has been a valid vision since the 70s (Blair and Regina were reading Wendell Berry and visited The Farm in Summertown, TN. The fellership did visit the Amish and/or Mennonites in Pennsylvania, one church was in Linzer, PA, and there was a similar visit to Ware, MA, thinking of buying land). And the food is quite good and reasonably priced. We will see what Nicodemus1968 says. They go out of their way to be friendly, and are quite sincere.

They leave most of the yahweh stuff in the background, so as to keep the Christian visitors comfortable. Shhh, hush-hush, mush-mush As I understand, they all read a little guide-book as to how to answer questions. They try to give the impression that they have real top-notch scholarship behind their yahweh and yahshua disasters. However, what is in their books barely rises to the level of sophistry, and they never even claim even yahweh with conviction, just a possibility, and a non-promise. Note though that their public bookstore now has a book blaring "yahweh" on the cover. This is new, afaik, out of the dark closet.

One interesting point is trying to receive or buy a Bible. In my last visits it was not possible. They did point me to a corruption version Greek workbook that they use for teaching children Greek. As if that was a Bible.

Share away, Nicodemus1968, I believe it is very helpful to discern the pluses and minues.

Did Homestead Heritage have any involvement with Yoneq Sprigg and the 12 Tribes?

[Steven Avery]

Did Homestead Heritage have any involvement with Yoneq Sprigg and the 12 Tribes?No direct involvement, afaik.

Let me try to be very accurate.

Once a fellow left and visited his sister at their community by the NY-southern-VT border, later returning. I stopped there once for an hour or two and have had a few other points of contact, Billy Graham at Flushing Meadows Park, Central Park Israel Days, Asheville community. And I will not pray with them, e.g. before dinner, when they lift up Yahshua. An AOL friend, in Ithaca, got involved, years back.

A Homestead Heritage elder has allowed that their elder-authority submission could be salvational, even if doctrines are awry. This is unlikely to be more than a voice account.

They would consider Twelve Tribes as too radical Sacred Namer in not using the name of Jesus at all. They weakly try to bring forth this type of distinction in one book. Also Homestead Heritage likes to be able to straddle issues like those around Christian and Jewish and pagan holidays. I know up to at least around 2000 I could be shocked and run into a Christmas tree in an elder’s home.

Whatever the elders approve.

The elders would call the occasional sabbath, not a 7th-day or Sunday rhythm. They could also approve a ‘marriage’ even if a covenant spouse was alive, as long as the covenant spouse is not in the fellership, and seems to have rejected their community. This has led to awkward situations.

Members have essentially signed away scriptural conscience disagreement liberty. Many, many documents to sign. (I had 0 siggies in my almost decade of full involvement.). They essentially sign that the elders are the authority of God manifest. This makes it difficult to challenge their scriptural blunders and it makes it hard to leave gently and smoothly. Lots of shunning and quasi-shunning.

It was a shock that Homestead Heritage embraced Yahshua c. 1990. Clearly, they used absurd arguments they found scouring Sacred Name groups, especially the Missouri group, YAIM if I remember. They would try to track down any pseudo-scholarship reference in the YAIM footnotes! :)

They are totally stuck now in false doctrine, using and worshiipping one ‘name’ that is actually devilish, Yahweh, and the related one that is non-Hebrew gibberish, Yahshua. They actively extol ‘Yahweh-worship’. Jesus has some usage, they want to appear Christian, however internally It seems safe to say the primacy is now with the gibberish Yahshua. Jehovah / Yehovah is totally unused, except as a point of attack.

When youngsters were following the false teachings and singing a blasphemy ditty chorus “there is no God named Jehovah” they reined that in, as it could be embarrassing. Part of their outreach is to folks in old-time Reformation traditions, like Hutterite and Mennonite. In those traditions, many embrace pure Reformation Bibles akin to the Authorized Version. And use the true name Jehovah, with perhaps a Dutch or German or French pronunciation. In fact the true Bible believers in those traditions are unlikely to be bamboozeled. Many old time Baptists and Pentecostals similarly have a Holy Spirit protection with their Authorized Version and true names Jesus and Jehovah.

Good question!

[Nicodemus1968]

I didn’t make it to Homestead Heritage.

I know you guys are going to be upset, I was actually bummed that my family and I wasnt able to go. I wanted to bring a good report back... LOL I do have family there just south of there, next time we go Ill be sure to do it before I arrive at my families house.

I had to get out of Southern Texas, the mindset of the Bible Belt is something else. No offense to anyone, its just different that’s all I’m going to say.

[Nicodemus1968]

Eat the meat throw away the bones?

Is that how you roll?

Brother, I’m not sure your being serious or joking. On the other hand, yes I believe in moderation. I’m not going there (planed to) to get spiritual insight into salvation, or growing closer to His Spirit. I’m going for the country style, backwoods country living.

[Steven Avery]

I’m going for the country style, backwoods country living. An excellent reason to visit!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother, I’m not sure your being serious or joking. On the other hand, yes I believe in moderation. I’m not going there (planed to) to get spiritual insight into salvation, or growing closer to His Spirit. I’m going for the country style, backwoods country living.

I’m not kidding.

One day you might joke on a bone.

[Esaias]

I had to get out of Southern Texas, the mindset of the Bible Belt is something else. No offense to anyone, its just different that’s all I’m going to say.

You're going to... Sannnnn Frannnnn-ciscooooo....?

[Nicodemus1968]

You're going to... Sannnnn Frannnnn-ciscooooo....?

:thumbsup

[Nicodemus1968]

I’m not kidding.

One day you might joke on a bone.

Duly noted.

[Steven Avery]

Fair going on, a bit on the Internet, I saw a little live YouTube.

The fairs are still invigorating. Any reports appreciated! I got hit with a detox (cold) combined with some work stuff so my thoughts of going down there were shelved.

Spiritually, the word about their yahweh-devil and yahshua-gibberish worship and related problems is getting out. There really is no way around that for a true Christian.

(There are also Bible problems and baptism problems and other problems.)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Fair going on, a bit on the Internet, I saw a little live YouTube.

The fairs are still invigorating. Any reports appreciated! I got hit with a detox (cold) combined with some work stuff so my thoughts of going down there were shelved.

Spiritually, the word about their yahweh-devil and yahshua-gibberish worship and related problems is getting out. There really is no way around that for a true Christian.

(There are also Bible problems and baptism problems and other problems.)

Please direct us to what you are talking about?

[Steven Avery]

connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50557

Homestead Heritage began as a Christian fellowship.
And externally, they try to keep that front.

However, their main goal is "Yahweh-worship" and the prayer rooms echo loudly to that dark-side entity. Song worship as well, as when they mangle the beautiful song "Days of Elijah" to no longer say "no God but Jehovah" and instead call on the creepy, dark word. And I had to RUN the aisles OUT from that spiritual darkness assault at the 2009 Fair.

Jehovah is the true English name for the Tetragram, JHVH (Yehovah is equivalent) and is used properly 7 times in the Authorized Version, LORD being most common. Yahweh is not Hebrew, not Jewish, not Christian, it snuck into Christian circles by bogus anti-scholarship from liberals and unbelievers. Gesenius even liked the pagan connection.

For a Christian, even light veneration usage should be avoided, Bible reading, commentary, discussion, preaching, but Homestead Heritage goes 1,000++ times further, wildly crying out to the dark entity in a droning mantra way ... "ohhhhhh yahhhweehhh". Spiritual entities are invoked by their name and yahweh is our old dark buddy handy-man Jupiter, going back to pre-Christian times (the Samaritan Temple was dedicated to Jupiter at one time, Jupiter == Zeus) to the New Testament to the later Roman occupation. Big honcho devil.

Around 1990 Homestead Heritage started to add "Yahshua", a sacred name abomination that is gibberish. Yahshua was invented in the 1930s by know-nothing USA sacred namers. This disaster was able to elbow and jockey with Jesus in the water baptism. It is one of the ways that they have left their original Apostolic water baptism doctrines, understandings and experiences.

If for some reason you want to use a Hebrew name for Jesus (e.g. the song Mayim, Mayim, or an Israeli fellowship) the name is Yeshua, with a long form Yehoshua. Yehoshua matches up with the theophoric names, which match up to the original theophoric name Yehovah!

When Homestead Heritage started down this pathway of darkness, it was sort of cutesy, and most people did not understand what was going on. Even in my own travels in the 1990s I spent some time visiting Sacred Name (or Qodesh Name) circles. That really helped me understand what was going on. However, the less encompassing error of the 1970s and 80s morphed into outright obstinate ignorance and rebellion by Homestead Heritage in the last decade. Accountability.

And I know the dynamic since they actually asked me to share with them on the topic (from around 2005-2015) and also share on the pure Bible topic. When they cut off our communication, under a humorous ruse, they freed me up to share more publicly. This is necessary and proper because they hide so much.

Let me stop here for now. :)

[Steven Avery]

And I touched on some of the water baptism problems here:
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1520248&postcount=77

However, it has gotten much worse. You will not find the connection of water baptism and remission of sins on their public statement of faith. (They have a blasphemy statement that you are making a pledge of the old nature.) The Yahshua abomination is put in the most critical spot of the document I am next describing. It is very questionable as to whether they receive an apostolic, remission of sins, water baptism. Those who leave, who are not the early crew of the 70s and 80s, may well need a water baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins!

And more and more they try to make water baptism a pledge or vow (the pure Bible says simply the answer of a good conscience toward God, 1 Peter 3:21) to stay essentially forever under their supposedly anointed ministry, and any leaving will trigger all sorts of walls of recrimination, plus wild roadblocks are in the way even if you simply see the foundational doctrinal errors.

If you want to be baptized, they want you to sign a document of about 135 pages, put your initials on it about 100 times, to a document with foundational errors, which you are saying is revealed truth that you totally accept as fully your own conviction!

Their Bible perspective is a total disaster. Infallibility and inerrancy only in the "original autographs" (meaning no actual discernible text that you read, it is liberal claptrap that Joel Stein fell for way back, and infected the Homestead Heritage beliefs) and they were trying to put out their own version for years. Blair Adams (1944-2021) started in the 70s really believing his King James Bible is the pure word of God, but the fellership got hijacked. It is more and more their literature that matters, and they compound that problem by taking the convoluted writings of Joel Stein and the center and giving it the byline of Blair Adams. And for Versions, they jump around a dozen corruption versions, smorgasbord style. People in the fellership can be reading the NLT or even the Message. And it is very painful when you see the literature, especially if you are a Bible believer! Scriptures are continually misused, poor translations emphasized, they pull out whatever fits what they want to say. (Their rhema.) Lots of scripture verses listed, sans text, with poor applicability to the topic.

The people inside are put under heavy restrictions in terms of reading and studying outside material. They are kept away from tons of fascinating research, and truth. The blood of Jesus is de-emphasized. Folks are not really looking into beautiful elements like the Ron Wyatt archaeology, and how the blood of Jesus landed on the mercy seat through the earthquake crack on the day of the crucifixion.

Just trust the elders, and the truths (and errors) they bring forth.

There are problems.

And the people who join up are often in the dark. Questions are asked, and vague and slippery answers are given. People will end up contacting me to understand what Homestead Heritage believes on issues like water baptism! They can sense that I am far more informative and transparent than the couched and scripted answers they get from Homestead.

Plus, since I speak positively about the vision and dedication, and keep my critiques focused on doctrine, I maintain street cred for those trying to weigh the pluses and minuses.

========================

Nonetheless, their homesteading visions, and the sense of Christianity being community, remain real.
Areas that were not shipwrecked.
The gifts and the callings of God are without repentance.

========================

Lord Jesus, speak to their hearts.
If there are honest heart spots, lead them out of darkness, especially the counterfeit names, and into your glorious light.
In Jesus name!

========================

[Evang.Benincasa]

And I touched on some of the water baptism problems here:
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1520248&postcount=77

However, it has gotten much worse. You will not find the connection of water baptism and remission of sins on their public statement of faith. (They have a blasphemy statement that you are making a pledge of the old nature.) The Yahshua abomination is put in the most critical spot of the document I am next describing. It is very questionable as to whether they receive an apostolic, remission of sins, water baptism. Those who leave, who are not the early crew of the 70s and 80s, may well need a water baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins!

And more and more they try to make water baptism a pledge or vow (the pure Bible says simply the answer of a good conscience toward God, 1 Peter 3:21) to stay essentially forever under their supposedly anointed ministry, and any leaving will trigger all sorts of walls of recrimination, plus wild roadblocks are in the way even if you simply see the foundational doctrinal errors.

If you want to be baptized, they want you to sign a document of about 135 pages, put your initials on it about 100 times, to a document with foundational errors, which you are saying is revealed truth that you totally accept as fully your own conviction!

Their Bible perspective is a total disaster. Infallibility and inerrancy only in the "original autographs" (meaning no actual discernible text that you read, it is liberal claptrap that Joel Stein fell for way back, and infected the Homestead Heritage beliefs) and they were trying to put out their own version for years. Blair Adams (1944-2021) started in the 70s really believing his King James Bible is the pure word of God, but the fellership got hijacked. It is more and more their literature that matters, and they compound that problem by taking the convoluted writings of Joel Stein and the center and giving it the byline of Blair Adams. And for Versions, they jump around a dozen corruption versions, smorgasbord style. People in the fellership can be reading the NLT or even the Message. And it is very painful when you see the literature, especially if you are a Bible believer! Scriptures are continually misused, poor translations emphasized, they pull out whatever fits what they want to say. (Their rhema.) Lots of scripture verses listed, sans text, with poor applicability to the topic.

The people inside are put under heavy restrictions in terms of reading and studying outside material. They are kept away from tons of fascinating research, and truth. The blood of Jesus is de-emphasized. Folks are not really looking into beautiful elements like the Ron Wyatt archaeology, and how the blood of Jesus landed on the mercy seat through the earthquake crack on the day of the crucifixion.

Just trust the elders, and the truths (and errors) they bring forth.

There are problems.

And the people who join up are often in the dark. Questions are asked, and vague and slippery answers are given. People will end up contacting me to understand what Homestead Heritage believes on issues like water baptism! They can sense that I am far more informative and transparent than the couched and scripted answers they get from Homestead.

Plus, since I speak positively about the vision and dedication, and keep my critiques focused on doctrine, I maintain street cred for those trying to weigh the pluses and minuses.

========================

Nonetheless, their homesteading visions, and the sense of Christianity being community, remain real.
Areas that were not shipwrecked.
The gifts and the callings of God are without repentance.

========================

Lord Jesus, speak to their hearts.
If there are honest heart spots, lead them out of darkness, especially the counterfeit names, and into your glorious light.
In Jesus name!

========================

How many people agree and live out on this place?

[Steven Avery]

How many people agree and live out on this place? Maybe a thousand, and more, including a few satellites and sub-units in the USA, and overseas. Not all live at "this place".

When you say "agree" I would say most of them did not deeply consider points like the concern for counterfeit names, the pagan jupiter, when they got involved. They liked the community, homesteading, crafts, holiness dress, obedient children and other similar elements. Who can blame them, it is, on the surface, a more real Christianity than the church milieu. This was in the early 1970s vision, and the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

In order to be part of all the good stuff, the newbies accepted false teachings, with minimal examination, as if they were true. Note: some with a oneness background said "nope" when they got unsatisfactory answers to the apostolic doctrinal questions. And now they are searching out communities with sound doctrine.

In one case at least, a family involved for years on the edges did not even know what was that droning sound "ohhhhh yahhhhweehh" in the prayer rooms. (That surprised me a bit.)

The original crew, up to about 1985-1990, were more aware, and there is a core of about 50 that have remained since the New Jersey days. Wonderful dedicated folks. And the teachings were generally sound. e.g. There was a Hebrews 6 foundation-stones teaching. Although Yahweh, unfortunately, was even involved back then, at least in the later 70s, albeit in a much lesser way. Excitement and worship was in the name of Jesus on the mainline, without the droning prayers. There was no Yahshua.

The King James Bible had a special status since it was the Bible in Blair's hand, which he would lift up high, although in the fellership it was being mixed with a couple of corruption versions, like the NIV and NAS. We were a bit naive at the time and did not know how corrupt are those versions.

Later came piles of corruption versions, literally a pile was brought by one elder, Howard Wheeler, into the meetings, it looked like almost a dozen. This was one of the early big concerns. Are we supposed to play around with a dozen versions (mostly Westcott-Hort recension corruptions) looking for what fits??? That is not Christianity, but we let it go by.

The water baptisms were sound up to that period. The apostasy in water baptism was largely begun 1990-2000, and has gotten worse. Their Confession for Baptism and Communion, which must be signed and initialed all over, highlights that Yahshua is the name for water baptism (although they also might at times hybrid it with Jesus.) Yahshua is NOT a Hebrew name for anybody.

Around 2005 they could have worked their way out of the Yahweh-Yahshua bondage. They showed some interest, and that may have been sincere inquiry. Maybe. Today, it is all hardened rebellion. And make sure there is no real study by the individuals and families.

The fellership defense mechanisms are way up. A knowing nod to their wonderful knowledge (sarcasm alert.) Attack the source of information, even make things up to try to discredit, a really scurrilous tactic. Suggest that this inquiry could lead to separation from your family. Other than my attempt, where they invited me to share, I have never heard of their being involved in any edifying discussion, email, forum or in person. It is a sad commentary on today's Christianity that there is no plumb line of truth Bible for most, and little or no concern about pagan-devil names. Btw, this applies to many oneness scholars as well, who use and abuse the false name yahweh, although without the fellership fervency of daily prayer to that entity.

Ironically, likely the world's most informed Hebraist on these issues is in Texas, not too far away, with north-south travels that go right by their spot. A very cordial gentleman with a real smile and a patient approach. This is Nehemia Gordon, the Karaite, now a PhD. If they were honest, they could have at least engaged a little lunch dialog, brought their University folks and their Israelis who are fluent in Hebrew and kept their minds open.

Instead, stubborn and obstinate rebellion.

Yours in the wonderful name of Jesus!
Steven (Avery) Spencer

In the fellership I was known simply as Steven Spencer, my middle name Avery became my internet name. Since the fellership ministry folks surely read all this, I want to avoid any confusion.

[Nicodemus1968]

Fair going on, a bit on the Internet, I saw a little live YouTube.

The fairs are still invigorating. Any reports appreciated! I got hit with a detox (cold) combined with some work stuff so my thoughts of going down there were shelved.

Spiritually, the word about their yahweh-devil and yahshua-gibberish worship and related problems is getting out. There really is no way around that for a true Christian.

(There are also Bible problems and baptism problems and other problems.)

Could you give me a quick synopsis why people are so against this community?

[TJJJ]

Always interesting.

[Steven Avery]

Could you give me a quick synopsis why people are so against this community? Overall, I consider myself as the best friend to the community, and I would love for them to return to a solid Christian base. (That would require, to start, dumping the false entity yahweh and the gibberish yahshua. Best, they should simply return to the AV and the proper names that are there, including Jesus, and Jehovah, and the LORD. They should publicly renounce trying to put out an improved Homestead Heritage version as an error.) All that would help the needed water baptism correction.

Then there would be hope that they could be a true Christian beacon, rather than a gnostic/pagan side-show (no other way to describe yahweh-yahshua-worship their key beliefs, often kept hidden hush-hush), with good crafts.

And I saw the pure and beautiful beginnings, and thankfully give honour where due. Their ministry brought me to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. What happened in the 70s was truly amazing. This lifting up of the vision and dedication separates me from almost all the public critics, who have their own blogs and videos, and find little positive to say.

Many are against them for subjective reasons. The ministry was too harsh and demanding. (They can work people very hard and have no regular sabbath, neither creation 7th-day or sunday.) They had some tragedies and situations that really felt wrong and were mishandled. (These are hard and painful to talk about.) They are sketchy in explanations, and have a habit of saying what is convenient. And sometimes they simply rewrite history, personal and community wide (generally they avoid outright lies, but lines can be crossed.) They are too scripted. Their doctrine is not orthodox Christian (not my complaint :) ). Their structures and finances are hidden. False prophecies. They intervened in marriages with a heavy hand (they do not have any true marriage permanence doctrines and have countenanced adulterous relationships, even their formation.) They want you to see the ministry as Christ in the flesh. They do not seem to realize the covid sham truths. They downgrade the blood of Jesus. They want complete acceptance on areas where they really have no consistent doctrine, like eschatology.

And I generally give them a semi-pass on most all of that. Perfection and even excellence is hard to attain. And some of these are only lightly addressed in oneness circles, like sabbath and marriage permanence, so many of the readers here might shrug.

Although I do see a connection between the tragedies and their yahweh-worship.

There has been surprises, like using chemotherapy and a person recently getting the jab with approval. And embracing coffee and chocolate after decades of excellently teaching, as Holy Spirit revelation, that coffee is a serpent! Now they have a coffee shop, and many of us know that a few cups of coffee a day can really damage ones walk with the Lord Jesus.

So your question has a few different edges. Many leave Homestead Heritage and lose Christianity completely (no solid base any more, one family immediately started attacking the name of Jesus) while others are satisfied with simple Pentecostal and Baptist environments. And, to be fair, sometimes people do leave because of rebellion and sin against God, they want to splurge in the world. Thus they will attack Homestead from psycho-babble anti-cult perspectives. That was a big part of an anti-Homestead movement 15-20 years back. So I was defending them in public forums (Factnet and Topix.) This led to our direct discussions on the Names and the Bible.

Hope this was a reasonable overview.

Btw, if people want to join up with them, that is their decision. Maybe they believe in "Yahweh" already. Maybe they like the corruption versions. Maybe they are not apostolic water baptism doctrine. Maybe they don't mind some slippery responses. My point is simply to encourage them to be informed, eyes open. If they join up, I wash them the personal best, despite the prayers to a dark-side entity.

Blessings and grace in Jesus name!

[Nicodemus1968]

So your question has a few different edges. Many leave Homestead Heritage and loss Christianity completely (no solid base any more) while others are satisfied with simple Pentecostal and Baptist environments.

Would it be a fair statement that we may expect too much out of some situations? Should we treat them as we would treat Amish and Mennonite communities?
Looking at their website and wanting to visit this community very soon. I would go and benefit from their knowledge of being self sufficient in use of the land that God has made for our benefit.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Could you give me a quick synopsis why people are so against this community?

I think he pretty much did.

[Steven Avery]

Would it be a fair statement that we may expect too much out of some situations? Should we treat them as we would treat Amish and Mennonite communities?
Looking at their website and wanting to visit this community very soon. I would go and benefit from their knowledge of being self sufficient in use of the land that God has made for our benefit. And I always encourage such visits!

Even consider them myself (I had a detox "cold" this year, so it was not a consideration, I try to keep a refundable Southwest points ticket, picked up way in advance, handy.)

They are definitely in the spearhead of the homesteading and crafts movements, and even with their problems they show that "Christian" community is possible.

And they will hide most of the yahweh-devil stuff. Although be careful in the music worship. I had to RUN the AISLES OUT in 2009, when Days of Elijah was mangled.

Beyond that the food at the Fair is ok (good, not great), the fresh air and walking is wonderful, you can make good nationwide and worldwide contacts and your prepper edge can improve. And I hung out the last two Fair visits with a Baptist KJB friend who has a book named The Word: God Will Keep It! The 400 Year History of the King James Bible Only Movement. And have some friends in the area. You can also try to have time with the ministry after the Fair, as I had done a couple of times, before they shrank back. If you read and study and pray in the name of Jesus you can be well prepared!

[Nicodemus1968]

I think he pretty much did.

Correct.

Bro. Avery's response to my question was given in detail, and some of his reasons he brought up, I could easily name several church's that act in the same way.

Yet, I guess I wanted to know why some look at Homestead Heritage like it should be an Apostolic/Pentecostal centered community? Does one go to an Amish community or a Mennonite community expecting an Acts 2:38 experience? Personally I know I don't, my family and I have good friends in both communities, we go to their house for dinner and they come to ours.

Perhaps this was started by an Apostolic forefather, and through the miracle of time they have shunned the truth they once knew? That may be the reason for the distain for this specific community.

[Esaias]

They started out oneness pentecostal.

[Nicodemus1968]

:thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

Correct.

Bro. Avery's response to my question was given in detail, and some of his reasons he brought up, I could easily name several church's that act in the same way.

Yet, I guess I wanted to know why some look at Homestead Heritage like it should be an Apostolic/Pentecostal centered community? Does one go to an Amish community or a Mennonite community expecting an Acts 2:38 experience? Personally I know I don't, my family and I have good friends in both communities, we go to their house for dinner and they come to ours.

Perhaps this was started by an Apostolic forefather, and through the miracle of time they have shunned the truth they once knew? That may be the reason for the distain for this specific community.

People are nuts. Religious people are even nuttier, but they just hide their nuttiness within their religion of choice. Who was the "Apostolic forefather?"

[Evang.Benincasa]

They started out oneness pentecostal.

These days I'm wondering about what it exactly means "started out" Oneness Pentecostal :heeheehee

[Steven Avery]

Perhaps this was started by an Apostolic forefather, and through the miracle of time they have shunned the truth they once knew? That may be the reason for the distain for this specific community. Blair Adams began the work in NYC around 1973, he was a UPC preacher. We left the UPC in 77, possibly 78, the reasons were sensible.

If they are talking to a oneness person, they will try to give the sense that they are still apostolic in doctrine.

Here you go, this is from their:

Confession for Baptism and Communion p. 12

https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?attachments/1638129816236-png.2098/

You really, really have to accept the gibberish Yahshua. This has to be your conviction.

They do not mention remission of sins. (Can a gibberish Yahshua remit sins? hmmm)

Also available at
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?attachments/1638129816236-png.2098/

[TJJJ]

Coffee is a serpent?

[Tithesmeister]

People are nuts. Religious people are even nuttier, but they just hide their nuttiness within their religion of choice. Who was the "Apostolic forefather?"

Not all people are nuts . . .






Some are fruits.

[Steven Avery]

Coffee is a serpent?This was given by revelation decades back, through sister Regina Adams, and actually served them very well. They were very interested in healthy concepts and compared the various food approaches. Earlier they had been influenced by the wonderful book Confessions of a Medical Heretic by Robert Mendelsohn, published in 1979, when they were partly in NJ and partly in Coloarado.

One gentleman was using coffee to stay up for his truck-driving job and it became a big issue.

Twelve Tribes uses Yerba Mate, an herbal drink, and if you are at their Yellow Delis. And I think they market some.

Quite recently everything changed on this at Homestead. They say they accepted the latest (shill) science that shows coffee and chocolate with health benefits. Now it can be drank at home, and they have a coffee shop, and it is served in their Cafe.

Personally, I mix some coffee with Teccino and similar herbal beverages, maybe once a day, so I surely understand a more lenient approach.

However, their view of it as a drug actually served them very well for decades. And I believe bringing in coffee with a shop and daily usage does promote a type of dullardness and stimulant dependence, detracting from community life.

YMMV (your mileage may vary.)

[Steven Avery]

Exodus Conference 2022 - livestream.
https://exodusconference.com/texas/
April 10-16. Day 1 livestream April 11

Day 3 today
https://youtu.be/MjTjNhRaJiI. - earlier on YouTube is day one and two.

The talks vary. Some of the talk topics you might find interesting. Some try to be scholarly with references to Josephus, Tertullian, Constantine, Gregory of Nyssa and others. Feel free to share below your thoughts. The blood of Jesus will get an occasional reference, en passant, without depth. They have had an historic weakness there, and do not accept that the actual blood of Jesus landed on the mercy seat under the crucifixion site.

The music is generally good, although some of it is tinged with that charismania music spirit with the emphasis on what I do.

Wednesday 10:30 AM CST you can hear their current water baptism teaching. There is a real question as to whether their baptisms are efficacious for remission of sins, since now it is a solemn vow or pledge to the ministry and their body. And remission of sins is hardly mentioned. Also Yahshua gibberish has crept in to the water baptism. Somebody who leaves Homestead, baptized there in the last decade or two, should really examine whether they need the Apostolic water baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins.

We have not heard them talk publicly of the two-fold water and spirit baptism, the born-again experience, for quite awhile. We will see I’d it comes in here.

They have a book of about 150 pages that new water baptism people have been told to sign and initial 100+ times. Quite a story there, now that it is public they may claim it is retired. However it was given out even in 2021. Note: the byline of Blair Adams is often placed on material written by others. Also they have a super-wacky Catch-22 explanation of what you should do if you believe they are in apostasy! :).

Friday 9 AM they will try eschatology. Maybe they will bring up preterism, dismissively. They have had unusual millennium beliefs in the past.

Friday 1:30 a Q&A

=============

They try to avoid any real discussion of their key core belief - “Yahweh-worship” - but the creepy devil-word (Yahweh == Jupiter) shows up a lot in the talks, especially from Asahel Adams (Note: I spoke to him personally at their Cafe about this problem in 2017.) If you visit, I suggest staying clear of prayer rooms, which travail ... “ohhhhhhh yahhhwwweehh.” Many are unwittingly calling on a dark-side entity. And at their Fair, I even heard them mangle a prayer song, Days of Elijah, away from the true "No God but Jehovah" substituting the creepy non-Hebrew word, and the Holy Spirit RAN me OUT of the tent.

Jehovah will never be spoken by the ministry and established members, at least not in any positive way. For some years, the youngsters were singing a blasphemy ditty "no God named Jehovah."

“Yahshua”, their gibberish faux word for the Lord Jesus Christ is mostly kept out of public discussion, maybe there was one mangled reference. Yet they have used that gibberish word in water baptism, and their book places it as the real name. Since it really has zero “scholarship” support, their discussions will be very brief. It is a mangling created by know-nothing USA Sacred Namers in the 1930s, to match the faux Yahweh (Jupiter), it is not a Hebrew name.

=============

They jump around a dozen or so New Testament corruption versions. They do not accept the heavenly witnesses as scripture, but they will use it, at least once in their writings, when convenient. They also avoid the wonderful baptism testimony verse, Acts 8:37, because they have been duped by liberal textcrits.

=============

Still, there is a bit of interesting study and you can get a feel for where they are today.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The vision from the pure fellowship of the 70s involving community, homesteading, crafts, etc. has been largely successful, despite their fundamental doctrinal and faith foibles.

=============

This is a very different fellowship than what was brought forth by the wonderful ministry of Blair Adams (1944-2021). He began with the King James Bible in his hand, thunderous as the word of God, and the truth of Jehovah. Sophistry from “intellectual” elders peeled Truth away.

=============

Homestead Heritage carefully watches what is said critically. They do not really engage the issues, instead they are skilled in diversion non-answers (also attacking the messengers.). They have a habit of rewriting history. To be fair, there was a time years back where they at least made a pretense of studying the Name and Bible issues, I had an ongoing email correspondence with their chief doctrinal elder, at their request. Ultimately they circled the horses, and pulled back, very sad.

Hebrews 10:38-39 (AV)
Now the just shall live by faith:
but if any man draw back,
my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition;
but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

=============

Lord Jesus, we ask for wisdom, grace and discernment.
In Jesus name.

=============

Steven (Avery) Spencer
Dutchess County, NY USA
https://www.facebook.com/steven.avery.7568/
Talkatone text: 520 hello 442- grace - 3322 (chopped up for bot control)

=============

Your feedback, thoughts, tweaks, experiences most welcome!

[jediwill83]

This was given by revelation decades back, through sister Regina Adams, and actually served them very well. They were very interested in healthy concepts and compared the various food approaches. Earlier they had been influenced by the wonderful book Confessions of a Medical Heretic by Robert Mendelsohn, published in 1979, when they were partly in NJ and partly in Coloarado.

One gentleman was using coffee to stay up for his truck-driving job and it became a big issue.

Twelve Tribes uses Yerba Mate, an herbal drink, and if you are at their Yellow Delis. And I think they market some.

Quite recently everything changed on this at Homestead. They say they accepted the latest (shill) science that shows coffee and chocolate with health benefits. Now it can be drank at home, and they have a coffee shop, and it is served in their Cafe.

Personally, I mix some coffee with Teccino and similar herbal beverages, maybe once a day, so I surely understand a more lenient approach.

However, their view of it as a drug actually served them very well for decades. And I believe bringing in coffee with a shop and daily usage does promote a type of dullardness and stimulant dependence, detracting from community life.

YMMV (your mileage may vary.)


I listened to a talk by a drug expert that talked about how western civilization changed when coffee, tea and chocolate entered mainstream use.


The caffeine increased productivity and allowed for greater useage of shift work basically in his words"it allowed man to break free of the suns rule".


Not making the case for or against, just commenting on the topic of caffeine.

[Jito463]

The caffeine increased productivity and allowed for greater useage of shift work basically in his words"it allowed man to break free of the suns rule".Even though I drink coffee and energy drinks, they tend to have the opposite effect on me. I always find myself yawning after drinking them. I remember an instance many years ago, where I came home and drank an entire pot of coffee, and shortly thereafter went straight to sleep. Caffeine just doesn't affect me like it does most people.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Even though I drink coffee and energy drinks, they tend to have the opposite effect on me. I always find myself yawning after drinking them. I remember an instance many years ago, where I came home and drank an entire pot of coffee, and shortly thereafter went straight to sleep. Caffeine just doesn't affect me like it does most people.

Actually its the effects of your body metabolizing the caffeine. You have the alertness effects of the caffeine, but after your body completely metabolizes it you get tired. Same thing with sugar, only the metabolization happens way quicker.

[Steven Avery]

Exodus Conference
Day 4
https://youtu.be/IkLKtr74eQs

Central Standard Time
9:00 Question Authority—Except When Statist and Compulsory
10:30 Water Baptism—A Saving Covenant with Christ Through His Body

The second one will have their current water baptism beliefs - for public consumption.

Will they mention “Yahshua”? What they consider the real name.

Other questions, as well.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Exodus Conference
Day 4
https://youtu.be/IkLKtr74eQs

Central Standard Time
9:00 Question Authority—Except When Statist and Compulsory
10:30 Water Baptism—A Saving Covenant with Christ Through His Body

The second one will have their current water baptism beliefs - for public consumption.

Will they mention “Yahshua”? What they consider the real name.

Other questions, as well.

Hillbilly Hebrews?

Yee Haw for Yahweh?

Ruach Rednecks?

[Steven Avery]

Water baptism
https://youtu.be/durpcoOsM3U

[Steven Avery]

Hillbilly Hebrews?

Yee Haw for Yahweh?

Ruach Rednecks?

Hebrews and Ruach are fine.

Yahweh is the pagan devil Jupiter.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hebrews and Ruach are fine.

Yahweh is the pagan devil Jupiter.

The problem is that like the Twelve Tribes community these other guys got off track by Judaizing their Christian experience. They start off calling God YHVH, but by the time they are finished they call each other rabbi (or rename themselves with Hebrew names), also butchering up the Hebrew language with a Southern drawl. Steve, I may of inquired about this before, but do you have any scholarly research or archeological research which points to Yahveh being the name for the Latin moniker of Zeus?

[Steven Avery]

do you have any scholarly research or archeological research which points to Yahveh being the name for the Latin moniker of Zeus?

A good starting point is a thread on this forum:

connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50557

That began 5 years back, I would be happy to revisit certain issues. There is a lot of indoctrination from mediocre scholarship and seminary studies to try to avoid the truth of Jehovah and the terror of Yahweh. For many it is just a scholastic issue, but for Homestead Heritage it is the core of their faith, Yahweh-worship, and their prayer rooms will travail .. "ohhhhh yahhhweehh." They are communing with a dark-side entity. And this has been explained to the ministry, who are happy to be priests of yahweh.

Colossians 3:16-17 (AV)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,
do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

[Evang.Benincasa]

A good starting point is a thread on this forum:

connecting dots - Acts 14 pagan Jupiter is yahweh
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50557

That began 5 years back, I would be happy to revisit certain issues. There is a lot of indoctrination from mediocre scholarship and seminary studies to try to avoid the truth of Jehovah and the terror of Yahweh. For many it is just a scholastic issue, but for Homestead Heritage it is the core of their faith, Yahweh-worship, and their prayer rooms will travail .. "ohhhhh yahhhweehh." They are communing with a dark-side entity. And this has been explained to the ministry, who are happy to be priests of yahweh.

Colossians 3:16-17 (AV)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,
do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I can't access the link you posted. Could you cut and paste all the information which backs up the claim that Yahweh is Zeus?

Yahweh in antiquity and scholarship was always associated with being the son of El Elyon, and his consort was Asherah. I've read your posts before concerning Jupiter/Yahweh, yet through my own research can't find anything that backs up your statements. Please show me anything that has some archeological proof. Could it be Jove and Yah? I've come across that before, but again, no scholarly research on the subject.

[Evang.Benincasa]

With this group (like any other group) outsiders get distracted with the group's success Bigger buildings, large congregations, and so on. But Roman Catholics and Mormons have buildings, and large followings. Yet, they are as false as a rubber chicken. Just like home town habitat, homegrown hermitage, whatever its called.

[Steven Avery]

I can't access the link you posted. Could you cut and paste all the information which backs up the claim that Yahweh is Zeus?

Yahweh in antiquity and scholarship was always associated with being the son of El Elyon, and his consort was Asherah. I've read your posts before concerning Jupiter/Yahweh, yet through my own research can't find anything that backs up your statements. Please show me anything that has some archeological proof. Could it be Jove and Yah? I've come across that before, but again, no scholarly research on the subject.strange about the url, since it is a thread on this forum!

A lot of the material is on:

Pure Bible Forum
Jehovah or “Yahweh”?
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?forums/jehovah-or-yahweh.85/

Facebook has had good discussions on
The Creator’s Name
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheCreatorsName/

Yah is fine, the short poetic form of the Tetragram.

Jove == Yahweh (sound)
Jove-pater - father yahweh - Jupiter

Archaeology is mostly peripheral.

Nehemia Gordon has written and spoken on this question, doctorate from Hebrew University.

Lot’s of liberal scholarship resistance :).

[Evang.Benincasa]

strange about the url, since it is a thread on this forum!

A lot of the material is on:

Pure Bible Forum
Jehovah or “Yahweh”?
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.php?forums/jehovah-or-yahweh.85/

Facebook has had good discussions on
The Creator’s Name
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheCreatorsName/

Yah is fine, the short poetic form of the Tetragram.

Jove == Yahweh (sound)
Jove-pater - father yahweh - Jupiter

Archaeology is mostly peripheral.

Nehemia Gordon has written and spoken on this question, doctorate from Hebrew University.

Lot’s of liberal scholarship resistance :).

Wouldn't you agree that archeological research is left up to our interpretation of the evidence? If we cannot find where Jove was converted into Yahweh, then we don't have the evidence. Also I have dealt with Nehemiah Gordon's material a long time ago. I found that his information is basically compiled for those who know less than he does. Gordon (I don't know about now) but, years ago taught that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew. You have posted these discussion boards before on this forum. Is there any way you can prove here with primary sources concerning the name of Yahweh? I do believe you understand my whole view on this subject, so therefore I'm not asking to start an argument. Just wanting to have the meat and potatoes as to be able to use the Yahweh being Jove argument, which you are presenting here.

The material below is concerning the Jove Yahwe argument. The chapter is dealing with a claim by Rabbi Rosenberg concerning Jove, and Yahweh, meaning Jupiter and Saturn. While the author mentions this Rabbi, cannot find any source material for the rabbi, and his teaching on this subject. Just what was mentioned in this book.

https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1525/aa.1973.75.4.02a01740


"Jewish and early Christian writings, are connected with Jove and similar names in Indo-European dialects. As a matter of fact, Jove is derived from the root div, which has no phonetic connection with Yahweh, and Yahweh is a normal formation of a familiar Semitic root; there is no reason, therefore, to suspect a borrowing of this name from an Indo-European source. Theories
of linguistic affiliation between Semitic and Indo-European are now
generally abandoned."

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/473788

The above excerpt states that Jove was just a Christian replacement for YHVH. Like Kyrios is found in the LXX, as a replacement for elohim, YHVH, and El. So, my question would be, are you just against a certain spelling of the Tetragrammaton?

[Steven Avery]

Wouldn't you agree that archeological research is left up to our interpretation of the evidence? If we cannot find where Jove was converted into Yahweh, then we don't have the evidence. The issue is that the sound of the devil-entities is the same, not that one is etymologically derived from the other. Most of what you have above concern etymological analysis. Evangelicals will often understand that any spirit is invoked by calling on its name.

Nehemia now has a PhD from Bar-Ilan University.

A paper with Pavlos D. Vasileiadis and Nehemia Gordon is:

“Transmission of the Tetragrammaton in Judeo-Greek and Christian Sources”
https://www.academia.edu/38634875/_Transmission_of_the_Tetragrammaton_in_Judeo_Greek _and_Christian_Sources_%CE%97_%CE%9C%CE%B5%CF%84%C E%B1%CE%B2%CE%AF%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7_%CF%84%CE %BF%CF%85_%CE%A4%CE%B5%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF% 81%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85_%CF%8 3%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82_%CE%99%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%B4%CE%B1 %CE%B9%CE%BF_%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9% CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%82_%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9_%CE%A7%CF%81% CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE %AD%CF%82_%CE%A0%CE%B7%CE%B3%CE%AD%CF%82_Cahiers_A ccademia_Nr_12_June_2021_pp_85_126

The New Testament stuff is peripheral, and really can be ignored. It does not relate to his Hebrew expertise and showing how Yehovah is correct, and Yahweh is pagan.

The theophoric names essentially prove that Jehovah is correct. The Hebrew (rabbi) scholars affirm the true vowels, this is largely new studies post 2000-AD with Nehemia in the lead. The Masoretic Text manuscripts and printed editions shows the vowels. Historically it is fun to watch the debates and you learn quickly that Jehovah is correct, Yahweh is nothing.

However, I never claim to be able to PROVE anything to anybody :).

The tetragram is a 3-syllable word with a cholam (O) on the second syllable. The mangling to "Yahweh" is basically a gibberish construction, matching nothing in the Hebrew Bible.

It is impossible for "Jove was just a Christian replacement for YHVH", since the Jove (Yahweh) Latin predates the Christian era.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The issue is that the sound of the devil-entities is the same, not that one is etymologically derived from the other. Most of what you have above concern etymological analysis. Evangelicals will often understand that any spirit is invoked by calling on its name.

Nehemia now has a PhD from Bar-Ilan University.

A paper with Pavlos D. Vasileiadis and Nehemia Gordon is:

“Transmission of the Tetragrammaton in Judeo-Greek and Christian Sources”
https://www.academia.edu/38634875/_Transmission_of_the_Tetragrammaton_in_Judeo_Greek _and_Christian_Sources_%CE%97_%CE%9C%CE%B5%CF%84%C E%B1%CE%B2%CE%AF%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B7_%CF%84%CE %BF%CF%85_%CE%A4%CE%B5%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF% 81%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85_%CF%8 3%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%82_%CE%99%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%B4%CE%B1 %CE%B9%CE%BF_%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9% CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%82_%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9_%CE%A7%CF%81% CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE %AD%CF%82_%CE%A0%CE%B7%CE%B3%CE%AD%CF%82_Cahiers_A ccademia_Nr_12_June_2021_pp_85_126

The New Testament stuff is peripheral, and really can be ignored. It does not relate to his Hebrew expertise and showing how Yehovah is correct, and Yahweh is pagan.

The theophoric names essentially prove that Jehovah is correct. The Hebrew (rabbi) scholars affirm the true vowels, this is largely new studies post 2000-AD with Nehemia in the lead. The Masoretic Text manuscripts and printed editions shows the vowels. Historically it is fun to watch the debates and you learn quickly that Jehovah is correct, Yahweh is nothing.

However, I never claim to be able to PROVE anything to anybody :).

The tetragram is a 3-syllable word with a cholam (O) on the second syllable. The mangling to "Yahweh" is basically a gibberish construction, matching nothing in the Hebrew Bible.

It is impossible for "Jove was just a Christian replacement for YHVH", since the Jove (Yahweh) Latin predates the Christian era.

Do you believe the New Testament was originally penned in Hebrew or Aramaic?

[Steven Avery]

Do you believe the New Testament was originally penned in Hebrew or Aramaic? Most all the NT was originally in Greek.

There are questions on a few books. Mark in Latin or two editions or a Graeco-Lain dialect is very possible. Revelation might have been in Hebrew. Eusebius discusses Hebrews. There was a Matthew Hebrew, no longer extant.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Most all the NT was originally in Greek.

There are questions on a few books. Mark in Latin or two editions or a Graeco-Lain dialect is very possible. Revelation might have been in Hebrew. Eusebius discusses Hebrews. There was a Matthew Hebrew, no longer extant.

Eusebius was here say, and his theory was based on Papias. Which is highly debatable concerning what Papias was even talking about. Matthew was supposedly writing a logia of Jesus' sayings in Hebrew. The Matthew which we have today isn't "sayings" of Jesus, but the biography of Jesus. Also, if Matthew was written in Hebrew, why would the writer have to explain Aramaic words to his readers? Matthew 27:33, and Matthew 27:46. Also Matthew 16:18 makes absolutely no sense in Hebrew or Aramaic. It's a play on words which only works in the Greek. Peter the piece of rock, the church built on the greater rock. Only Roman Catholics hang onto an Aramaic translation to uphold their beloved Papacy proof, that Peter is the rock which the church would be built upon. Anyway, no Hebrew Revelation. If you would like to see the debate on that subject, we pretty much put that puppy to bed. When Elder LeDeay wanted to claim a Hebrew original for Revelation, because the tribe of DAN was missing from the roster of the 144,000.

As for the Karaite Nehemiah Gordon's idea for a Hebrew Matthew, is based on a work done by the Baal Shem Tov "Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer" A work that we don't even have the original, but copies which were modified by other rabbis. Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer's work on a Hebrew Matthew isn't credible, and is never taken seriously. It was a work to oppose Christianity. The Karaite Nehemiah Gordon's mentor was an anti-missionary Jew, and had no love for Jesus, or His Church. While the Karaite Nehemiah Gordon claims to not be on the same page as his deceased mentor as far as Jesus and His followers go, then why try to feed us the bogus Hebrewism? Is Peter the Rock? I can't seem to picture Peter looking like Dwayne Johnson.

But, thank you for your clarification, to my question. I asked about a Hebrew New Testament. Because the Joe Witnesses to uphold Joe Hovah being necessary the New Testament needed to be originally written in Hebrew. Yet, Alexandria Egypt where Jesus went as a young child was the largest concentration of Judeans outside of Jerusalem. The diaspora lived there, and their majority spoke the worldwide language of Greek. The language of the Roman Empire, whose major documents were all written in Greek. Therefore a document like the Revelation which was to be sent to 7 diaspora churches in Asia minor would need to be (not written in a liturgical language like Hebrew, a language which was pretty much only used in the temple) but Greek. The LXX has no GEE HOVAH no YOUR WAY, or YEEHA WAY. Therefore it wasn't important to them who wrote the LXX, and later the entire New Testament. His name is Jesus, and that's about it. Is Michael Gibson going to be lost as a potato because he calls God Yah, and not Jah? I bring up Michael, because he and I have gone round and round on this very subject. In threads you posted in with us. If the Karaite Nehemiah Gordon is the only primary source you have for me, then I'll have to pass. He is a Christ denier, therefore I don't trust his intentions. Yes, yes, if he said water is wet, he would be stating a truth. But when someone has to go to such lengths to prove their teaching buy saying our New Testament is mangled mess written in a gentile tongue? I have some problems with that line of thought.

As for Homestead Mayhem I know nothing about those jokers. They sound like Twelve tribes without the pony tails, and the gaseous food. Sounds like YEEHAW is the least of their problems.

Again, I appreciate you answering my question, thank you. But, do you think people like Michael Gibson (a poster on this forum) is lost because he calls God YAH? He doesn't refute the name of Jesus, he even uses the name of Jesus, acknowledges the validity of the name of Jesus. He just prefers to use the word YAH, sometimes Jehovah, and the name Yeshua. Any problems with that? I'm not looking for a fight, I'm trying to understand this position you have. I wanted to know more about it a while back so I read some of the forum you posted on. But really couldn't find solid proof of Yahweh being Jupiter. But, now to find out it all goes back to Nehemiah Gordon? If I misrepresented you, or your position I greatly apologize, please forgive me.

[Michael The Disciple]

But, do you think people like Michael Gibson (a poster on this forum) is lost because he calls God YAH? He doesn't refute the name of Jesus, he even uses the name of Jesus, acknowledges the validity of the name of Jesus. He just prefers to use the word YAH, sometimes Jehovah, and the name Yeshua.

An accurate statement of my position. I highly doubt YAH will be upset when he is called by his name.

[diakonos]

An accurate statement of my position. I highly doubt YAH will be upset when he is called by his name.

So, not Jesus? Yah?

[Michael The Disciple]

Look at what Dom said.

But, do you think people like Michael Gibson (a poster on this forum) is lost because he calls God YAH? He doesn't refute the name of Jesus, he even uses the name of Jesus, acknowledges the validity of the name of Jesus. He just prefers to use the word YAH, sometimes Jehovah, and the name Yeshua.

[diakonos]

Look at what Dom said.

But you believe the name of God is Yah?

[Michael The Disciple]

Well yes....

[Jito463]

But you believe the name of God is Yah?
Well yes....
Is God Jamaican?

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/75/75fb1579276819266306da0fa6d98d91e1a1247c24e3ab5482 5c7820921a0bbf.jpg

[diakonos]

Is God Jamaican?

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/75/75fb1579276819266306da0fa6d98d91e1a1247c24e3ab5482 5c7820921a0bbf.jpg

In south Texas you often hear, “¡Ya, güey!” But, it doesn’t mean the same thing. :lol

I guess I don’t see the point for a “oneness” believer to refer to God by any name other than Jesus.

[Amanah]

In south Texas you often hear, “¡Ya, güey!” But, it doesn’t mean the same thing. :lol

I guess I don’t see the point for a “oneness” believer to refer to God by any name other than Jesus.

Absolutely

Philippians 2:9-11
King James Version
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

:thumbsup

[Steven Avery]

Eusebius was here say, and his theory was based on Papias. Which is highly debatable concerning what Papias was even talking about. Matthew was supposedly writing a logia of Jesus' sayings in Hebrew. The Matthew which we have today isn't "sayings" of Jesus, but the biography of Jesus. Also, if Matthew was written in Hebrew, why would the writer have to explain Aramaic words to his readers? Matthew 27:33, and Matthew 27:46. Also Matthew 16:18 makes absolutely no sense in Hebrew or Aramaic. It's a play on words which only works in the Greek. Peter the piece of rock, the church built on the greater rock. Only Roman Catholics hang onto an Aramaic translation to uphold their beloved Papacy proof, that Peter is the rock which the church would be built upon. Hi!

The Hebrew Matthew, seen and partially described by Jerome from the library at Caesarea Maritima, was a different text than canonical Matthew. And I said above that it is not extant. It likely did not have any internal translations.

Here I have some material on the topic.

Pure Bible Forum
Jerome and the Hebrew Matthew - (not canonical Matthew)
https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/jerome-and-the-hebrew-matthew-not-canonical-matthew.543/

[Steven Avery]

Anyway, no Hebrew Revelation. If you would like to see the debate on that subject, we pretty much put that puppy to bed. When Elder LeDeay wanted to claim a Hebrew original for Revelation, because the tribe of DAN was missing from the roster of the 144,000.
Sure.

Any info on this I would like to read.

Here is my page so far.

Pure Bible Forum
the claim of grammatical errors in Revelation - Hebrew or Aramaic autograph
https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-claim-of-grammatical-errors-in-revelation-hebrew-or-aramaic-autograph.1684/

[Steven Avery]

Is Michael Gibson going to be lost as a potato because he calls God Yah, and not Jah? I bring up Michael, because he and I have gone round and round on this very subject. In threads you posted in with us. I

But, do you think people like Michael Gibson (a poster on this forum) is lost because he calls God YAH? He doesn't refute the name of Jesus, he even uses the name of Jesus, acknowledges the validity of the name of Jesus. He just prefers to use the word YAH, sometimes Jehovah, and the name Yeshua. Any problems with that? The Y and J are essentially interchangeable.

Jah is the short contraction or poetic form of Jehovah.

Psalm 68:4 (AV)
Sing unto God, sing praises to his name:
extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH,
and rejoice before him.

Exodus 6:3 (AV)
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac,
and unto Jacob,
by the name of God Almighty,
but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Psalm 83:18 (AV)
That men may know that thou,
whose name alone is JEHOVAH,
art the most high over all the earth.

So the use of Jehovah and Jah is certainly scriptural.

In a Hebrew fellowship Yehoshua or Yeshua are the Hebrew equivalents for Jesus. In an English context they are generally out of place.

[Steven Avery]

As for the Karaite Nehemiah Gordon's idea for a Hebrew Matthew, is based on a work done by the Baal Shem Tov "Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer" A work that we don't even have the original, but copies which were modified by other rabbis. Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer's work on a Hebrew Matthew isn't credible, and is never taken seriously. It was a work to oppose Christianity. The Karaite Nehemiah Gordon's mentor was an anti-missionary Jew, and had no love for Jesus, or His Church. While the Karaite Nehemiah Gordon claims to not be on the same page as his deceased mentor as far as Jesus and His followers go, then why try to feed us the bogus Hebrewism? Is Peter the Rock? I can't seem to picture Peter looking like Dwayne Johnson.

... If the Karaite Nehemiah Gordon is the only primary source you have for me, then I'll have to pass. He is a Christ denier, therefore I don't trust his intentions. Yes, yes, if he said water is wet, he would be stating a truth. But when someone has to go to such lengths to prove their teaching buy saying our New Testament is mangled mess written in a gentile tongue? I have some problems with that line of thought.

... I wanted to know more about it a while back so I read some of the forum you posted on. But really couldn't find solid proof of Yahweh being Jupiter. But, now to find out it all goes back to Nehemiah Gordon? If I misrepresented you, or your position I greatly apologize, please forgive me. You really can ignore everything of Nehemia about the New Testament. It really has no effect on his Masoretic Text Hebrew scholarship supporting Yehovah.

Nehemia is a very strong source on all the Hebrew OT questions.

The Yahweh is Jupiter connection was made by some before Nehemia, I have that documented on the PureBibleForum.

Here are the two basic points.

1) The Yahweh guess-word is creepy, non-Christian, and has no Hebrew support. Jehovah (Yehovah) has incredibly strong support, including the Theophoric names, the Rabbinical acknowledgements of the true vowels, and the manuscripts and Hebrew grammar.

This alone is enough to reject Yahweh and especially prayer rooms moaning and travailing "ohhhh Yahwehhh" as they have at Homestead Heritage.

2) Yahweh is Jupiter
And I believe this to "proven" quite nicely. However, even if you question this connection, Yahweh should clearly be fully rejected.

[Esaias]

While it seems clear that "Jove" (IOVE or IOUE) is pronounced "yaw- way" or "yoh-weh" or "yah-vay" or "yoh-veh" in classical Latin (assuming our guesses about classical Latin pronunciation are correct - it could also be "ee-yoh-veh" or possibly even "ye'-oh-v(w)ay" ye-o-v(w)eh"), it also seems (to me at least) that Latin Jove is simply a heathen corruption of YHVH, just as IA is a heathen corruption of Yah (Jah). In fact, Deo seems to be a cognate form of Yah/Jah. Celtic and Old Irish (which are related to both Latin and Greek) use the word Dia and de for God and god, and the "d" is lenited to make a "j" sound. So Dia is pronounced "jee-uh" and de is pronounced "jeh" or "jyeh".

I don't know if classic Latin had a soft D (Deo would then be closer to "jay-oh") but it IS a cognate of Greek Theo and Sanskrit deva (especially the form Deus). Deva can be pronounced as "day-vah" but also close to "jay-vah" (I think it's actually about halfway in between a hard d and a j).

So seems to me that Jove is just a corruption of YAH and YHVH which they then applied to their arch deity Jupiter/Zeus (which in ancient Greek would be "dzay-oos" or "dzyoos", again showing the variations of D-J-DZ- and etc). Modern Greek would be "dzefs" which is close to devas and Deus.

[Steven Avery]

There are a ton of etymology theories.

Here is an example of one of many discussions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/etymology/comments/2u5bdr/i_recently_noticed_that_the_alternate_name_for/

The bottom line is simple.

Yahweh == Jove (Jupiter) dark-side entity.

Jehovah stands majestic and true.

[diakonos]

There are a ton of etymology theories.

Here is an example of one of many discussions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/etymology/comments/2u5bdr/i_recently_noticed_that_the_alternate_name_for/

The bottom line is simple.

Yahweh == Jove (Jupiter) dark-side entity.

Jehovah stands majestic and true.

When one makes claims, there is a burden of proof that must be met.

[Steven Avery]

When one makes claims, there is a burden of proof that must be met. Have you ever seen a “burden of proof” met for the creepy Yahweh and the gibberish Yahshua?

Or do you just want background on Yahweh = Jupiter?

We examine evidences.
Evaluation of “proof” tends to be subjective.

[Originalist]

"Homestead Heritage."

Sounds like an off-brand of creamed corn.

[jediwill83]

Sherri is correct. You need to dig a little deeper.

I saw that same "nirvana" appearnce in the TV interviews with the wives and children of that polygmist sect that got raided in Texas last year and the kids taken.

The women looked like Little House on The Prairie moms. As wholesome as any Pentecostal woman. They led simple lives devoted to their religion and were VERY seperated from the "world" in their VERY modest dress standard.

The Waco bunch this thread is about are not into polygmy but they are into control. I have observed some of it first hand. Blair came out of Kenneth Phillips church in Austin a long, long time ago. Around the late 70's or if in the 80's it was before '83.

Unless they have change in the last 15 years they are big time into "shunning". They are really nice to visitors and customers but they are not seeing the reality of the situation.

I observed a really funny situation with that group involving the "shunning" back in the early 1990's.


Well....dont just tease with the tea, start the pour! 🤣

[Evang.Benincasa]

Is God Jamaican?

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/75/75fb1579276819266306da0fa6d98d91e1a1247c24e3ab5482 5c7820921a0bbf.jpg

This was funny :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

An accurate statement of my position. I highly doubt YAH will be upset when he is called by his name.

You see, I pay attention to those I tussle with. ;)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hi!

The Hebrew Matthew, seen and partially described by Jerome from the library at Caesarea Maritima, was a different text than canonical Matthew. And I said above that it is not extant. It likely did not have any internal translations.

Here I have some material on the topic.

Pure Bible Forum
Jerome and the Hebrew Matthew - (not canonical Matthew)
https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/jerome-and-the-hebrew-matthew-not-canonical-matthew.543/

Hello, but the Hebrew Matthew isn't true. I gave you my reasons which you didn't deal with here, or over on your forum which you offer me in your post.
But I mentioned that the so called HEBREW Matthew originated by hear say, the first mention in Antiquity is from a quote from Papias of Hierapolis. Also Papias of Hierapolis was quoted mentioning a "sayings" of Jesus, which we don't have, but we do have a "story" of Jesus by Matthew. Also, one cannot build a case for a Hebrew Matthew based on the word of one ancient writer who is giving us the word of something he heard. SA, there was never a Hebrew Revelation or Matthew. Especially Revelation being that document was sent to Diaspora churches in Greek speaking territories. Also Nehemia Gordon never deals with the Greek linguistic issues of Matthew.

What if the Chinese call Jesus, Shàngdì does God know what's going on?
How about the word God? Ghuthan is where we get the word Gott, or God. It's old Anglo Saxon word for their deities. Same as the Chinese Shàngdì.
My whole issue with the "name game" is about the Judaizing agenda all the proponents have. I'm not saying you are Judaizing, but Nehemia Gordon, is a Judaizer, and most of his followers in Christianity and in the Karaite Judaism. Presenting the THEORY of Hebrew New Testament isn't new, and the Kabbalist Talmudic Rabbis have been pushing their agenda for years. If Michael Gibson calls Jesus Yah isn't my problem, my problem is the agenda behind the YAH. Michael Gibson is just a by product, having no agenda to Judaize. But, Nehemia Gordon is as anti-missionary as any other Rabbi worth their salt. While Gordon tries to refute this by saying he doesn't try to "convert" anyone, or that he is looking for the return of a Messiah, doesn't negate he isn't on the same team as Christ. Mordecai Alfandari was Gordon's mentor, and while Gordon tries to downplay the whole affiliation as far as anti-missionary goes, Gordon doesn't give a convincing argument. Pushing a narrative of Hebraism to dummies who won't look past their goosebumps for everything Rabbinical is anti-missionary. I have more respect for a Rabbi Tovia Singer than a Nehemia Gordon type who is just a wolf among the sheepfold. At least Rabbi Tovia Singer comes flat out and tells you he is trying to destroy Christianity and convert everyone to Talmudic Rabbinical Judaism. The whole name game isn't our job, our job is the Gospel and winning people to Christ. The Spirit of Truth will guide us to all truth. If Nehemia Gordon isn't preaching One God Jesus, baptism in Jesus name and infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Then he isn't building, he is wasting our precious time. Just another jack leg selling books, and making money off people who have less knowledge on a topic than he has. People have been calling Jesus, Jesus for 2,000 years, no English speaker needs to call Him any other name. I sure don't need some Rabbi lessons to learn how to pray.

[Monterrey]

So what are you trying to say?







Just kidding!

[Evang.Benincasa]

So what are you trying to say?

Just kidding!

I'm trying. :heeheehee

[loran adkins]

But you believe the name of God is Yah?

The name of God? We speak English the name that we have used for several hundred years as Jesus. But we don't speak Spanish, or French, or any of the oriental languages which their word for God is much different from the way we say it.
It seems that religion has gotten so far away from the original that it is any wonder that if God did come back to earth he would not know what Christianity was all about. As it has become all about doctrines of man. Rules and laws, and not what Christ came to earth to set up at all.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yah who?

[Amanah]

Yah who?

Yah think?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Yah think?

:heeheehee

[Michael The Disciple]

Psalms 68:4

New King James Version
Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name YAH, And rejoice before Him.

[Steven Avery]

Psalms 68:4

New King James Version
Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name YAH, And rejoice before Him. Yah/Jah is wonderful, it is also in the pure Authorized Version.

Psalm 68:4 (KJV)
Sing unto God, sing praises to his name:
extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH,
and rejoice before him.

Jah is the poetic or short form of the name, and is a contraction from the beginning and end of Jehovah.

========================

In ten spots in the Psalms the AV translates Jah as a word suffix as the LORD.

Psalm 149:1 (AV)
Praise ye the LORD.
Sing unto the LORD a new song,
and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Praise ye the LORD in the Hebrew is Halleluyah.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Psalms 68:4

New King James Version
Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name YAH, And rejoice before Him.

You baptize in the name of Yah?

Go back to the Kingdom Hall. :lol




Yah/Jah is wonderful, it is also in the pure Authorized Version.

Psalm 68:4 (KJV)
Sing unto God, sing praises to his name:
extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH,
and rejoice before him.

Jah is the poetic or short form of the name, and is a contraction from the beginning and end of Jehovah.

========================

In ten spots in the Psalms the AV translates Jah as a word suffix as the LORD.

Psalm 149:1 (AV)
Praise ye the LORD.
Sing unto the LORD a new song,
and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Praise ye the LORD in the Hebrew is Halleluyah.

LORD/κύριος, is wonderful it is also in the pure Authorized Greek Version. It was authorized by a king as well, Ptolemy II Philadelphus. :heeheehee
300 years before the birth of Christ, the Diaspora as well as Jerusalem Judeans found no problem with calling God, κύριος. As for the whole Pentecostal Jehovah Witness theological name argument, it doesn't stand up to historical scrutiny. Christians have been baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ for over 2,000 years. That is the only name which should matter.

Psalm 68:4

ᾄσατε τῷ θεῷ ψάλατε τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ ὁδοποιήσατε τῷ ἐπιβεβηκότι ἐπὶ δυσμῶν κύριος ὄνομα αὐτῷ καὶ ἀγαλλιᾶσθε ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ ταραχθήσονται ἀπὸ προσώπου αὐτοῦ

[Steven Avery]

And I think it is important to note that Homestead Heritage now has two doctrines swirling around the born-again experience.

James 1:8 (AV)
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

When they are talking to folks they know as oneness, they will try to sound as if they still believe similar to the tract “The Apostle’s Doctrine” by S. R. Hanby (Stanley, passed in 1995) with whom they were close in the mid-70s and which tract they utilized. They will try to say that nothing has changed.

E.g. they are nourishing some UPC connections and spoke as a Conference in St. Louis hosted by the UPC in 2022 relating to community. In that environment they will not let on their actual current teachings.

Now, in public teaching with a mixed audience including charismatics and Baptists, the two-fold born-again experience (John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water and the Spirit”) is gone-doctrine.

You easily pick this up in the Evangel Life Ministries broadcasts, likely also in their Exodus Conference videos. Note that they do at times, from what I’ve seen, remove a talk.

They will in fact, in a tedious round-about fashion, affirm speaking in tongues as the sign of the Holy Spirit baptism. Using traditional apostolic explanations.

(We should be aware that many give this as a facade, it is not necessarily “as the Spirit gave the utterance” Acts 2:4 (AV). So we cannot say for sure if Homestead Heritage newbies receive the genuine Spirit baptism, although they definitely did in early years. Since their key doctrine is “Yahweh-worship”, it is in God’s hand to give a sure determination.)

However, in these public explanations, the Spirit baptism is not connected with water baptism as part of the two-fold born-again experience. And, beyond that, they are very slow to declare that the water baptism is for remission of sins. In early days this was crystal-clear and often the person baptized would receive the Holy Spirit coming out of the water!

The reasons for their double doctrine shell game are complex. One factor is all their confusion and error on Yahweh, Yahshua and Yeshua. (Yahweh is a dark-side abomination and yahshua is gibberish, they affirmed Yahshua, even in their writings and even in water baptism, for many years, but seem to avoid that word Yahshua publicly now, going to Yeshua, which is Hebrew to English. They have a satellite of sorts in Israel and I conjecture that those folks told them that Yahshua is gibberish.)

Another factor is how water baptism morphed into a vow of submission to the community and its elders and leadership. That specific vow now is the needed affirmation, in writing and/or by voice, this scripture is not sufficient.

Acts 8:37 (AV)
And Philip said,
If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
And he answered and said,
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

In fact, due to their Bible text confusion, usually using corruption versions, they avoid any reference to that beautiful verse in Acts. They also avoid the heavenly witnesses as non-scripture, except where they find it convenient. Another example of double-mindedness.

Yours on Jesus name!,
Steven

[Steven Avery]

The yahweh-worship situation seems to be getting more and more ossified as part of their spiritual mess. Yahweh is Jupiter (jove-pater, so Jupiter is yahweh-father), the devil entity of Acts 14 and 19, pagan temples dedicated, even the Samaritan Temple. And even related to the abomination of desolation. And this entity is the center of their worship, Jesus lagging behind. Now this false name is even placed on the front cover of a book that is publicly available, blaring "Yahweh" in bold letters. This is Knowing God by Name, in their bookstore. In the past they kept that type of stuff internal.


The front cover blares out the blashemy.

The creepy one gets top billing!
Note: no Jesus.

https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?attachments/1712071985279-png.7741/

[Steven Avery]

Note: I believe that Blair had very little to do with the actual writing, which was by Joel Stein. That is a bit of a story, and Joel even had to put out a special letter disclaiming his originality input to the Homestead Heritage writings.