Dr.Daniel Segraves book The Search for the Word of God

[Trouvere]

I have in my hand a copy of a book by Brother Daniel Segraves on the Search for the Word of God.I wanted to know if any of you have read it before and what your opinion is concerning his stance.

[revrandy]

I have in my hand a copy of a book by Brother Daniel Segraves on the Search for the Word of God.I wanted to know if any of you have read it before and what your opinion is concerning his stance.

I haven't read it... but if he wrote it.. I can garuntee you it won't be harmful to you... :tiphat

[Trouvere]

I haven't read it... but if he wrote it.. I can garuntee you it won't be harmful to you... :tiphat

I like the garuntee word..it reminds me of Justin Wilsons accent.I read it before and am rereading it.I am wondering because when I pull up the UPCI's Urshan School of Theology I see that the professors there recommend the Nestles txt which if I am correct is a minority text.I am no screamer for KJV but I do believe it has less errors that need correcting than an edition based on the minority text.

[Pastor Keith]

I have in my hand a copy of a book by Brother Daniel Segraves on the Search for the Word of God.I wanted to know if any of you have read it before and what your opinion is concerning his stance.

I believe that Bro. Segraves opinion has changed, I believe that he no longer agrees with much of what he thought over 25 years ago.

[Trouvere]

I believe that Bro. Segraves opinion has changed, I believe that he no longer agrees with much of what he thought over 25 years ago.

In what way Brother that would be contrary to this book?

[Pastor Keith]

In what way Brother that would be contrary to this book?

His feelings about the KJV being the only legit book, but you might want to ask him, when I got into a discussion with him, it was my feeling that he doesn't necessarily believe all of his conclusions. Anyway the benefit of growth in his scholarship in my opinion.

[Trouvere]

what is your opinion of the matter.

[Praxeas]

I like the garuntee word..it reminds me of Justin Wilsons accent.I read it before and am rereading it.I am wondering because when I pull up the UPCI's Urshan School of Theology I see that the professors there recommend the Nestles txt which if I am correct is a minority text.I am no screamer for KJV but I do believe it has less errors that need correcting than an edition based on the minority text.
You got a link? Kinda weird that a bunch of professors are endorsing any text on a website....

I have an email discussion with him years ago and I think he no longer endorses that book you are reading because through continuing studies he has changed on some positions....however I don't know that such a change includes NOT supporting the TR. He did tell me that his preferred bible was the NKJV over the KJV as far as TR based translations go

[Trouvere]

I will find where I read that hold on.BTW did you notice that the Greek professor graduated from a school that is as far removed from Apostolic thought as possible.Just wondering.
Also the fact that many of these ministers use the NIV version in books and teachings leads me to believe they endorse the Minority texts.

[Trouvere]

Getting back to this book.Has anyone ever read it?

[Trouvere]

BTW the following is something Mike Blume posted that I thought worth its salt.

You would have to do a websearch to find all the MANY details. But basically it is the text that is the source of all the corrupted manuscripts. The STEPHENS or ALZEVIR'S is the good one.

Nestle's text came along when people started critiquing the bible and wanting to know what was genuine scripture and what was not. They allegedly found previously unknown or unexamined new manuscripts. In other words, they accepted the thought that God's Word could have been lost. If that is the case, then God did not supernaturally preserve His Word, was He must have if He supernaturally inspired it. God can do anything. And I f he inspired it it only is logical that He preserve it.

Nestle's text was devised by Eberhard Nestle in 1898 and was a supposed step CLOSER to what they believe they will NEVER truly be able to arrive at: a genuine word of God. They believe THERE IS NO WORD OF GOD any more, since they say the true words written originally are lost. Once you go down that road, the devil makes you think that if some of it is wring, then what else is wrong, and your whole faith is thrown out the window in time.
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[Praxeas]

BTW the following is something Mike Blume posted that I thought worth its salt.

You would have to do a websearch to find all the MANY details. But basically it is the text that is the source of all the corrupted manuscripts. The STEPHENS or ALZEVIR'S is the good one.

Nestle's text came along when people started critiquing the bible and wanting to know what was genuine scripture and what was not. They allegedly found previously unknown or unexamined new manuscripts. In other words, they accepted the thought that God's Word could have been lost. If that is the case, then God did not supernaturally preserve His Word, was He must have if He supernaturally inspired it. God can do anything. And I f he inspired it it only is logical that He preserve it.

Nestle's text was devised by Eberhard Nestle in 1898 and was a supposed step CLOSER to what they believe they will NEVER truly be able to arrive at: a genuine word of God. They believe THERE IS NO WORD OF GOD any more, since they say the true words written originally are lost. Once you go down that road, the devil makes you think that if some of it is wring, then what else is wrong, and your whole faith is thrown out the window in time.
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Actually it began with Wescott and Hort

[Praxeas]

I will find where I read that hold on.BTW did you notice that the Greek professor graduated from a school that is as far removed from Apostolic thought as possible.Just wondering.
Also the fact that many of these ministers use the NIV version in books and teachings leads me to believe they endorse the Minority texts.
Where else are they going to graduate?

[Trouvere]

Where else are they going to graduate?

Praxeas sad but true.How about sharing some knowledge about the subject.I am sure you have studied it extensively and am interested in what you know about it.

[Praxeas]

Praxeas sad but true.How about sharing some knowledge about the subject.I am sure you have studied it extensively and am interested in what you know about it.
Where to graduate or original languages? LOL Im not an expert on either. I just do like others do....refer to the experts and study some of what they have studied. Most UPCers that want higher education in original languages go to other theology schools including the secular schools. Dr Segraves did. He has several semesters in greek though I am not sure what he has done in greek after that.

[Trouvere]

Where to graduate or original languages? LOL Im not an expert on either. I just do like others do....refer to the experts and study some of what they have studied. Most UPCers that want higher education in original languages go to other theology schools including the secular schools. Dr Segraves did. He has several semesters in greek though I am not sure what he has done in greek after that.

Have you read the commentarys written by Brother Treece called the Litteral Word? I have been to a few of his minsters seminars at La Dist Campground.

[PaPaDon]

I haven't read it... but if he wrote it.. I can garuntee you it won't be harmful to you... :tiphat

In early 2001, after reading both of Bro. Seagraves publications about the New Testament book of Hebrews, I wrote a letter to him seeking further clarification to some of the statements he had made which I believed to conflict with the sound precepts of the Scriptures. In his response, dated February 1, 2001, he maintained that the statements of his publication were valid, and suggested that I consult the contents of the following publications as evidence of such:

Death and the Afterlife by Robert A. Morey (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 1984)

The Bible and the Life Hereafter by William Hendriksen (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1959)

What Happens After Death by F.W. Thomas (Vancouver, B.C.: Thomas Publications, 1978)

The Christian state after death and before resurrection by J. Urwin and S.J. Robinson (Sunbury, PA: Believers Bookshelf, Inc.)

After many attempts to locate and purchase the suggested publications, I was only able to obtain Death and the Afterlife by Robert A. Morey. Being unable to recognize Robert A. Morey as a Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal minister, I then sought to determine his denominational affiliation. I was shocked to discover that this man was not only a minister in the Southern Baptist church, but had also produced a video which was extremely critical of the teachings of the UPCI. I managed to obtain a copy of such video, and after viewing it I was prompted to also explore the religious affiliation of the others whom Bro Seagraves had suggested I consult to verify the veracity of the statements he had published as truth. In so doing I found that NONE of the men who authored the publications suggested by Bro Seagraves, were of the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal faith. This astonishing discovery caused me to entertain yet further questions concerning the scriptural merits of the things which prompted my initial inquiry to Bro Seagraves. How was I to rely upon the scriptural veracity of Bro Seagraves statements found within his books on Hebrews, or anywhere else, if his understanding of biblical precepts were deprived from the writings of men who apparently were void of the Spirit of Truth?

In NO manner whatsoever would I desire that others reading of my contact with Bro Seagraves, construe anything I have written, as implying that I question his integrity, or desire to assist others to come to a better understanding of biblical precepts. I am only saying, that in my humble opinion, He is definitely WRONG regarding some of the things he published within the context of his publications about Hebrews which I found to contradict the truth of God’s written Word, and that IF it be that the sources which he suggested I consult to substantiate the scriptural veracity of his statements are a reflection of the manner in which he determines the truth, then I am compelled to question each of his statements concerning other biblical doctrines as well!

I DO NOT discount Brother Seagraves as a brother in Christ (for only he and God knows if he is truly one of God’s chosen people), rather that as a result of this singular incident, I feel justified in questioning the scriptural merits of ALL things which he asserts as truth. Are we not commanded to “prove the spirits”? Is there any exception made to this admonition, should it be that the one making statements which contradict the sound precepts of the Bible, just happens to be an Apostolic minister or the president and dean of theology at a Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal bible college? I think not!

BTW... I found more than one incident of contradictory statements within Bro Seagraves publications regarding the book of Hebrews, but that is a matter of an entirely different discussion.

[Praxeas]

Have you read the commentarys written by Brother Treece called the Litteral Word? I have been to a few of his minsters seminars at La Dist Campground.
No, though I had a tape where he gave a commentary on the greek of Jn 1...they don't publish that commentary anymore though

[Praxeas]

In early 2001, after reading both of Bro. Seagraves publications about the New Testament book of Hebrews, I wrote a letter to him seeking further clarification to some of the statements he had made which I believed to conflict with the sound precepts of the Scriptures. In his response, dated February 1, 2001, he maintained that the statements of his publication were valid, and suggested that I consult the contents of the following publications as evidence of such:

Death and the Afterlife by Robert A. Morey (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 1984)

The Bible and the Life Hereafter by William Hendriksen (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1959)

What Happens After Death by F.W. Thomas (Vancouver, B.C.: Thomas Publications, 1978)

The Christian state after death and before resurrection by J. Urwin and S.J. Robinson (Sunbury, PA: Believers Bookshelf, Inc.)

After many attempts to locate and purchase the suggested publications, I was only able to obtain Death and the Afterlife by Robert A. Morey. Being unable to recognize Robert A. Morey as a Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal minister, I then sought to determine his denominational affiliation. I was shocked to discover that this man was not only a minister in the Southern Baptist church, but had also produced a video which was extremely critical of the teachings of the UPCI. I managed to obtain a copy of such video, and after viewing it I was prompted to also explore the religious affiliation of the others whom Bro Seagraves had suggested I consult to verify the veracity of the statements he had published as truth. In so doing I found that NONE of the men who authored the publications suggested by Bro Seagraves, were of the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal faith. This astonishing discovery caused me to entertain yet further questions concerning the scriptural merits of the things which prompted my initial inquiry to Bro Seagraves. How was I to rely upon the scriptural veracity of Bro Seagraves statements found within his books on Hebrews, or anywhere else, if his understanding of biblical precepts were deprived from the writings of men who apparently were void of the Spirit of Truth?

In NO manner whatsoever would I desire that others reading of my contact with Bro Seagraves, construe anything I have written, as implying that I question his integrity, or desire to assist others to come to a better understanding of biblical precepts. I am only saying, that in my humble opinion, He is definitely WRONG regarding some of the things he published within the context of his publications about Hebrews which I found to contradict the truth of God’s written Word, and that IF it be that the sources which he suggested I consult to substantiate the scriptural veracity of his statements are a reflection of the manner in which he determines the truth, then I am compelled to question each of his statements concerning other biblical doctrines as well!

I DO NOT discount Brother Seagraves as a brother in Christ (for only he and God knows if he is truly one of God’s chosen people), rather that as a result of this singular incident, I feel justified in questioning the scriptural merits of ALL things which he asserts as truth. Are we not commanded to “prove the spirits”? Is there any exception made to this admonition, should it be that the one making statements which contradict the sound precepts of the Bible, just happens to be an Apostolic minister or the president and dean of theology at a Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal bible college? I think not!

BTW... I found more than one incident of contradictory statements within Bro Seagraves publications regarding the book of Hebrews, but that is a matter of an entirely different discussion.

Uh....you thought that in order to back up sound theological practices he was going to point you to other oneness pentecostals? That's internally inconsistant and unsound. Just because Morey writes against our beliefs does not make him wrong on everything.

Oneness Pentecostals have since the beginning of the last century resorted to and used the works of non-Oneness Pentecostals across the board. We use their greek lexicons and dictionaries. We use their commentaries. We use their translations. We use their books on the cults like the JWs and Mormons. We use their historical books on the church and the jews. We use their books on eschatology. We use their books on theology. We use their books on prayer. We use their books why we should use the KJV. We use their books on hermoneutics and systematic theology....

BTW you never did point out what this error was and attempt to show how it was wrong

[PaPaDon]

Uh....you thought that in order to back up sound theological practices he was going to point you to other oneness pentecostals? That's internally inconsistant and unsound. Just because Morey writes against our beliefs does not make him wrong on everything.

Oneness Pentecostals have since the beginning of the last century resorted to and used the works of non-Oneness Pentecostals across the board. We use their greek lexicons and dictionaries. We use their commentaries. We use their translations. We use their books on the cults like the JWs and Mormons. We use their historical books on the church and the jews. We use their books on eschatology. We use their books on theology. We use their books on prayer. We use their books why we should use the KJV. We use their books on hermoneutics and systematic theology....

BTW you never did point out what this error was and attempt to show how it was wrong


No... I expected that, since I was questioning the scriptural merits of certain statements he made, that he would provide other passages of scriptures in support thereof. Are we not admonished to establish ALL truths by the mouth of two or more witnesses? And are not those "witnesses" to be the words of other holy men of olden times who wrote as they were inspired of God?

Insofar as references to the writings of non-apostolic writers, I have no arguments against such, for even I consult them for references purposes ONLY, not to substantiate the scriptural merits of my fundamental beliefs.

Insofar as Morey's writings are concerned, I deemed it quite offensive that a fellow apostolic would even suggest that I consider anything this man might have to say, for in the video I viewed wherein he spoke of the UPCI, he called it a cult. If I am to heed and obey our Lord's commandment to "judge righteous judgment," then I can only deem Morey to be nothing more than a "false prophet," and I choose to avoid such, and would never willingly allow any of my fundamental beliefs of biblical doctrines to be based upon anything which he might assert as truth.

I was converted to the oneness apostolic pentecostal faith after more than 48 years of association with the likes of Morey, and this is yet another reason that I found it offensive for Bro Segraves to suggest that I consult with Morey's writings to ascertain biblical truth.

The thing I found to be scripturally unsound within Bro Segraves writings concerned matters of eschatology, and seeing that this is not the topic of this thread, I did not consider it appropriate to mention its specifics.

I hope that this will enable you to better comprehend the remarks of my previous post.

[Praxeas]

No... I expected that, since I was questioning the scriptural merits of certain statements he made, that he would provide other passages of scriptures in support thereof. Are we not admonished to establish ALL truths by the mouth of two or more witnesses? And are not those "witnesses" to be the words of other holy men of olden times who wrote as they were inspired of God?

Insofar as references to the writings of non-apostolic writers, I have no arguments against such, for even I consult them for references purposes ONLY, not to substantiate the scriptural merits of my fundamental beliefs.

Insofar as Morey's writings are concerned, I deemed it quite offensive that a fellow apostolic would even suggest that I consider anything this man might have to say, for in the video I viewed wherein he spoke of the UPCI, he called it a cult. If I am to heed and obey our Lord's commandment to "judge righteous judgment," then I can only deem Morey to be nothing more than a "false prophet," and I choose to avoid such, and would never willingly allow any of my fundamental beliefs of biblical doctrines to be based upon anything which he might assert as truth.

I was converted to the oneness apostolic pentecostal faith after more than 48 years of association with the likes of Morey, and this is yet another reason that I found it offensive for Bro Segraves to suggest that I consult with Morey's writings to ascertain biblical truth.

The thing I found to be scripturally unsound within Bro Segraves writings concerned matters of eschatology, and seeing that this is not the topic of this thread, I did not consider it appropriate to mention its specifics.

I hope that this will enable you to better comprehend the remarks of my previous post.
You still have not provided what it was Segraves was wrong on in the book of Hebrews. Maybe if you feel it does not belong here, start a new thread. Id like to see the verse in question

[Trouvere]

Brother Treece's works are available through Advance Ministries.That is the only place I see them offered.I have somewhere in my stack of collected things not only his view of textural criticism but an overview of the Pauline Epistles which was very good.The La Dist might have them archived.
I do not agree with all of his views but God bless him for getting out of the box.I have to wonder though why not more indepth study guides are not offered by Oneness people.It would be a blessing.

[Praxeas]

Brother Treece's works are available through Advance Ministries.That is the only place I see them offered.I have somewhere in my stack of collected things not only his view of textural criticism but an overview of the Pauline Epistles which was very good.The La Dist might have them archived.
I do not agree with all of his views but God bless him for getting out of the box.I have to wonder though why not more indepth study guides are not offered by Oneness people.It would be a blessing.

I wonder that too. It would be nice if we offered more indepth study and training for Oneness Pentecostals.

[HappyPastor2]

You got a link? Kinda weird that a bunch of professors are endorsing any text on a website....

I have an email discussion with him years ago and I think he no longer endorses that book you are reading because through continuing studies he has changed on some positions....however I don't know that such a change includes NOT supporting the TR. He did tell me that his preferred bible was the NKJV over the KJV as far as TR based translations go

I know for certain that Brother Seagraves' position has changed with regard to the KJV. Brother J.R. Ensey recently wrote "This Book We Call the Bible." It too downplays the "KJV only" belief that is fairly common in our ranks and gives a great overview (possibly the best I've seen) of translations. It's an excellent read. By the way, if anyone is looking for a great English translation in more modern English - you might try the ESV (English Standard Version). It seems to retain the granduer of the KJV, is highly readable, and seems to be faithfully translated from texts the KJV only crowd would still favour. I still preach primarily from the KJV but refer to the ESV often.

[Praxeas]

I know for certain that Brother Seagraves' position has changed with regard to the KJV. Brother J.R. Ensey recently wrote "This Book We Call the Bible." It too downplays the "KJV only" belief that is fairly common in our ranks and gives a great overview (possibly the best I've seen) of translations. It's an excellent read. By the way, if anyone is looking for a great English translation in more modern English - you might try the ESV (English Standard Version). It seems to retain the granduer of the KJV, is highly readable, and seems to be faithfully translated from texts the KJV only crowd would still favour. I still preach primarily from the KJV but refer to the ESV often.
I have the ESV in my E-sword....is it public domain?

[Trouvere]

I am taking Greek classes from Dr.Klein who is a Jewish born again Oneness teacher.He teaches free online biblical Hebrew and Greek classes.He is about to start teaching out of an Apostolic Church in Kentucky along with Dr.Bernie Wade and others.I would rather look at the text myself and read it and do the grammer and see what it is saying.That is the best way to study,also you can see the definitions from a oneness viewpoint instead of one that translates it according to another understanding.To me that is the best blessing.There are things we can see in original manuscripts that those without revelation of who God is cannot see.God is so good.I am so glad I know who He is.Its only by grace that I do.

[Pastor Keith]

I know for certain that Brother Seagraves' position has changed with regard to the KJV. Brother J.R. Ensey recently wrote "This Book We Call the Bible." It too downplays the "KJV only" belief that is fairly common in our ranks and gives a great overview (possibly the best I've seen) of translations. It's an excellent read. By the way, if anyone is looking for a great English translation in more modern English - you might try the ESV (English Standard Version). It seems to retain the granduer of the KJV, is highly readable, and seems to be faithfully translated from texts the KJV only crowd would still favour. I still preach primarily from the KJV but refer to the ESV often.



I just bought a couple of ESV versions after reading a great article by Mark Driscol, the famous Seattle Pastor who gets himself in hot water for his outspokeness in a city that embraces a PC view only.

Here is the article:

http://www.marshillchurch.org/content/esv

[Praxeas]

I am taking Greek classes from Dr.Klein who is a Jewish born again Oneness teacher.He teaches free online biblical Hebrew and Greek classes.He is about to start teaching out of an Apostolic Church in Kentucky along with Dr.Bernie Wade and others.I would rather look at the text myself and read it and do the grammer and see what it is saying.That is the best way to study,also you can see the definitions from a oneness viewpoint instead of one that translates it according to another understanding.To me that is the best blessing.There are things we can see in original manuscripts that those without revelation of who God is cannot see.God is so good.I am so glad I know who He is.Its only by grace that I do.
I've taught myself a little amount of greek, but not near as much as I would like. I can recognize some characters so that I can look at a greek text and notice certain words like articles etc etc. I've thought about taking some greek at one of the local schools. We have a Lutheran college nearby, but I bet it's pretty expensive.

With E-sword you can get several greek texts including the TR with strongs numbering

[HappyPastor2]

I have the ESV in my E-sword....is it public domain?

I have it on e-sword also. I don't think that I paid an access fee. Maybe so.

[Trouvere]

I've taught myself a little amount of greek, but not near as much as I would like. I can recognize some characters so that I can look at a greek text and notice certain words like articles etc etc. I've thought about taking some greek at one of the local schools. We have a Lutheran college nearby, but I bet it's pretty expensive.

With E-sword you can get several greek texts including the TR with strongs numbering

Do you have DSL? Are you willing to buy books and study? There is a group that is going to begin in the evening.

[Praxeas]

I have it on e-sword also. I don't think that I paid an access fee. Maybe so.
Mine was free, which means it was either public domain or the owners licensed it for free

[Praxeas]

Do you have DSL? Are you willing to buy books and study? There is a group that is going to begin in the evening.

When is it?

[Trouvere]

When is it?

email him.
bibleteach@hotmail.com
You are already so studious.I imagine that if you sharpen that sword some more hell is going to have to give up the souls it has bound in your part of the work of God.

[KwaiQ]

Actually it began with Wescott and Hort

Amen. So called Church of England ministers.