View Full Version : Carnality in the church
Charlie Brown
02-13-2007, 07:58 PM
Am I just a block head, or is there a ridiculous amount of carnality in the church today? Thinks that would have made granny weep before the Lord are now shouted from the housetop. We have a church generation that now thinks its ok to entertain themself with violence, and sexual innuendos. Hello! Can't we figure out that when we take this garbage into our mind and heart, it changes us, and transforms us more into the image of the world?
I was amazed to have someone recently ask me, "does everything have to be about the spiritual". And why wouldn't we want it to all be about the one that gave his all for us? Are we so blinded by the world that we can no longer see what is happening to us?
:ranting
Felicity
02-13-2007, 08:14 PM
The church is full of carnality but I think it always has been. The early church certainly was.
The real problem is that there's LESS of a lot of things that there used to be MORE of. Like consecration, commitment, prayer, fasting, sacrificial service, and prayer.
Did I mention prayer?! :)
Charlie Brown
02-13-2007, 08:17 PM
The church is full of carnality but I think it always has been. The early church certainly was.
The real problem is that there's LESS of a lot of things that there used to be MORE of. Like consecration, commitment, prayer, fasting, sacrificial service, and prayer.
Did I mention prayer?! :)
Hey, did you add prayer to that list???? :D
Maybe there is carnality in the church because the church is full of sinners.
On a side note, would you consider the moderate consumption of wine to be carnality?
Felicity
02-13-2007, 08:19 PM
Maybe there is carnality in the church because the church is full of sinners.
On a side note, would you consider the moderate consumption of wine to be carnality?But there has ALWAYS been sin and sinners in the church.
As to your question about wine we're teetotalers. How about you?
Charlie Brown
02-13-2007, 08:19 PM
Maybe there is carnality in the church because the church is full of sinners.
On a side note, would you consider the moderate consumption of wine to be carnality?
I am not even talking so much about what is done really. Its the mindset that really has floored me over the course of time.
Felicity
02-13-2007, 08:22 PM
Hey, did you add prayer to that list???? :D Hehe! I think I did but just in case someone might have missed it I'll say it again .... :)
There is a LACK of prayer in most churches today. Moreso I believe than years ago when Pentecost was younger and newer and when there weren't as many 3rd, 4th and 5th generation apostolics around.
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:22 PM
Chili con carne?
? Carne Guisada ?
? Carne Guisada ?
con arroz y tostones .... a la criolla :bliss :bliss
But there has ALWAYS been sin and sinners in the church.
As to your question about wine we're teetotalers. How about you?
Yes, there has been and always will be carnality in the church.
I am a moderate consumptionist.
The carnality argument is as old as Solomon's temple ... God will preserve His Church throughout the Ages .... if their is a carnal segment .... of the church ... it's ...cough ... cough... the American church ... sitting in comfort and clueless to the true persecution, and poverty most are facing in this dying world.
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:29 PM
The carnality argument is as old as Solomon's temple ... God will preserve His Church throughout the Ages .... if their is a carnal segment .... of the church ... it's ...cough ... cough... the American church ... sitting in comfort and clueless to the true persecution, and poverty most are facing in this dying world.
Amen.
By the way, Dan, that which you carnally stole from me in your signature is now in its rightful place in my signature.
:killinme
Amen.
By the way, Dan, that which you carnally stole from me in your signature is now in its rightful place in my signature.
:killinme
Carnal imitation is the best form of carnal flattery.
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:33 PM
Carnal imitation is the best form of carnal flattery.
I'll take that carnally as a compliment of my carnal greatness.
:bliss
Why am feeling carnally hungry for some T-bone steaks?
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Why am feeling carnally hungry for some T-bone steaks?
MEAT!
Go with Ribeye. More flavor.
Felicity
02-13-2007, 08:35 PM
The carnality argument is as old as Solomon's temple ... God will preserve His Church throughout the Ages .... if their is a carnal segment .... of the church ... it's ...cough ... cough... the American church ... sitting in comfort and clueless to the true persecution, and poverty most are facing in this dying world.You nailed it! :highfive
Bistec encebollado!!!! Steak w/ onions.
Whole Hearted
02-13-2007, 08:36 PM
Am I just a block head, or is there a ridiculous amount of carnality in the church today? Thinks that would have made granny weep before the Lord are now shouted from the housetop. We have a church generation that now thinks its ok to entertain themself with violence, and sexual innuendos. Hello! Can't we figure out that when we take this garbage into our mind and heart, it changes us, and transforms us more into the image of the world?
I was amazed to have someone recently ask me, "does everything have to be about the spiritual". And why wouldn't we want it to all be about the one that gave his all for us? Are we so blinded by the world that we can no longer see what is happening to us?
:ranting
:highfive
I have in the 32 year of being in the church seen it become more and more carnal. Not all there are still good churches that are striving to reach the lost and live for God.
There are still good churches with the goods that are growing.
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:37 PM
One man's "carnal" is another man's "super spiritual"
Good churches = standards ...
Ron pass the A1 sauce.
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:38 PM
Good churches = standards ...
Ron pass the A1 sauce.
All'z I gots is da A1 Thick n' Hearty.
Hey, good steaks don't need sauce.
All'z I gots is da A1 Thick n' Hearty.
Hey, good steaks don't need sauce.
That'll suffice, Ronnie boy ... why is the other side so predictable???
I mean when will they revise the playbook????
I like my meat medium-well ...
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:43 PM
That'll suffice, Ronnie boy ... why is the other side so predictable???
I mean when will they revise the playbook????
No comment. I'm trying to be good here...
I like my meat medium-well ...
What am I gonna do with you? Everyone knows Medium Rare is the only acceptable way to cook a steak. Anything else is heresy and worthy of hanging by the toenails over the hot coals used to cook the steak.
No comment. I'm trying to be good here...
What am I gonna do with you? Everyone knows Medium Rare is the only acceptable way to cook a steak. Anything else is heresy and worthy of hanging by the toenails over the hot coals used to cook the steak.
Well Ronzoni .. you know the old maxim ... you can take the Puerto Rican out of the GHETTO .... but you can't take the GHETTO out of the Puerto Rican ...
ARE YOU GOING TO EAT THAT????
BoredOutOfMyMind
02-13-2007, 08:53 PM
Am I just a block head, or is there a ridiculous amount of carnality in the church today? Thinks that would have made granny weep before the Lord are now shouted from the housetop. We have a church generation that now thinks its ok to entertain themself with violence, and sexual innuendos. Hello! Can't we figure out that when we take this garbage into our mind and heart, it changes us, and transforms us more into the image of the world?
I was amazed to have someone recently ask me, "does everything have to be about the spiritual". And why wouldn't we want it to all be about the one that gave his all for us? Are we so blinded by the world that we can no longer see what is happening to us?
:ranting
Chuck, The fact that in the last 25 years we have progressed to where an Adulterer gains popularity as an idol has affected the church. A society where a murderer then writes a confession and makes $$$ means our society is on the brink of a fall. To the younger generation, weaned on these moving images and few eyewitness miracles, it seems not real that God judges.
Pat-a-cake for Jesus is easier than full sacrifice and commitment. It was my goal to have our Youth long ago witness to seeing others receive this like gift. We had a great retention rate compared to those not in our direct group.
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 08:53 PM
ARE YOU GOING TO EAT THAT????
Not after you stuck your ghetto finger in it.
Charlie Brown
02-13-2007, 09:00 PM
The carnality argument is as old as Solomon's temple ... God will preserve His Church throughout the Ages .... if their is a carnal segment .... of the church ... it's ...cough ... cough... the American church ... sitting in comfort and clueless to the true persecution, and poverty most are facing in this dying world.
That is comforting to know. Now if we could just make the American church aware of their nakedness.
Ronzo
02-13-2007, 09:01 PM
That is comforting to know. Now if we could just make the American church aware of their nakedness.
Some of us are...
Now when you say Nakedness ... do you mean physical ... or our lack of love?
Am I just a block head, or is there a ridiculous amount of carnality in the church today? Thinks that would have made granny weep before the Lord are now shouted from the housetop. We have a church generation that now thinks its ok to entertain themself with violence, and sexual innuendos. Hello! Can't we figure out that when we take this garbage into our mind and heart, it changes us, and transforms us more into the image of the world?
I was amazed to have someone recently ask me, "does everything have to be about the spiritual". And why wouldn't we want it to all be about the one that gave his all for us? Are we so blinded by the world that we can no longer see what is happening to us?
:rantingYou are not a blockhead: there is a ridiculous amount of carnality in the Church today (well, actually, any amount of carnality is "a ridiculous amount").
philjones
02-14-2007, 09:58 AM
Am I just a block head, or is there a ridiculous amount of carnality in the church today? Thinks that would have made granny weep before the Lord are now shouted from the housetop. We have a church generation that now thinks its ok to entertain themself with violence, and sexual innuendos. Hello! Can't we figure out that when we take this garbage into our mind and heart, it changes us, and transforms us more into the image of the world?
I was amazed to have someone recently ask me, "does everything have to be about the spiritual". And why wouldn't we want it to all be about the one that gave his all for us? Are we so blinded by the world that we can no longer see what is happening to us?
:ranting
I have heard Christian cynics say about folks " they are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good". I choose to say rather that "if they aren't heavenly minded the ARE no earthly good!"
I have heard Christian cynics say about folks " they are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good". I choose to say rather that "if they aren't heavenly minded the ARE no earthly good!"To be heavenly minded is of the greatest earthly good.
philjones
02-14-2007, 10:01 AM
One man's "carnal" is another man's "super spiritual"
Usually detemined by what spirit the second man is of!:drawguns
Ronzo
02-14-2007, 10:01 AM
Usually detemined by what spirit the second man is of!:drawguns
Exactly.
Michael The Disciple
02-14-2007, 10:52 AM
Carnality can be accounted to several things.
a. People do not in reality have the Holy Spirit.
This is a lot of the problem. They cannot be spiritual without the Spirit.
b. Churches dont teach and encourage Jesus admonitions about utter loyalty to him and his word.
Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48
This is mocked and peppered with resistance.
There is no reason to think people will forsake all and follow Christ if they are told its not essential to enter the Kingdom.
Carnality can be accounted to several things.
a. People do not in reality have the Holy Spirit.
This is a lot of the problem. They cannot be spiritual without the Spirit.
b. Churches dont teach and encourage Jesus admonitions about utter loyalty to him and his word.
Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48
This is mocked and peppered with resistance.
There is no reason to think people will forsake all and follow Christ if they are told its not essential to enter the Kingdom.
It's much like what someone said to me in another forum...
"You're saying that God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections! Friend, that is utterly impossible. If that were possible, then Jesus' blood on Calvary was not necessary.
No one is saying we get a "pass." I am only stating reality here. You have every right to state that your opinion is the right one and that you know it's right and that your interpretation is the right one. I disagree with your conclusion which, in my opinion, is way off base. Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are and was without sin. We, however, are not Jesus and will NEVER meet His standard on our own, in our flesh. That is what imputed righteousness is for. It "takes up the slack" if you will when we fall short of God's perfection.
The only way we are accountable to God for meeting His standard of perfection is when we trust in HIS righteousness. It is the ONLY way for us to measure up. That is not an excuse for licentiousness or sinful behavior, but is the only reality there is unless you subscribe to the doctrine of "sinless perfection." If so, then I know where you're coming from and it still doesn't fit with reality in the life of ANYONE I have ever known or met, including those who preach it."
It is the wickedness of trying to set the word of God apart from so-called "reality" (as if to say that the Bible does not represent reality) that is at the core of the carnality you describe.
For the record, I do believe that "God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections." Jesus made this clear when He said to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect and when Peter quoted the Old Testament in saying we're to be holy as God is holy. The scriptures are clear that we are accountable for the standard God set forth. Does this mean that humans will ever achieve sinless perfection here in this present world? I don't think so. But that does not absolve us of our accountability to God for meeting the standard He set forth for us. It is a carnal mindset that tries to use our humanity as an excuse for falling short (see Romans 3:23).
Ronzo
02-14-2007, 01:37 PM
It's much like what someone said to me in another forum...
"You're saying that God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections! Friend, that is utterly impossible. If that were possible, then Jesus' blood on Calvary was not necessary.
No one is saying we get a "pass." I am only stating reality here. You have every right to state that your opinion is the right one and that you know it's right and that your interpretation is the right one. I disagree with your conclusion which, in my opinion, is way off base. Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are and was without sin. We, however, are not Jesus and will NEVER meet His standard on our own, in our flesh. That is what imputed righteousness is for. It "takes up the slack" if you will when we fall short of God's perfection.
The only way we are accountable to God for meeting His standard of perfection is when we trust in HIS righteousness. It is the ONLY way for us to measure up. That is not an excuse for licentiousness or sinful behavior, but is the only reality there is unless you subscribe to the doctrine of "sinless perfection." If so, then I know where you're coming from and it still doesn't fit with reality in the life of ANYONE I have ever known or met, including those who preach it."
It is the wickedness of trying to set the word of God apart from so-called "reality" (as if to say that the Bible does not represent reality) that is at the core of the carnality you describe.
For the record, I do believe that "God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections." Jesus made this clear when He said to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect and when Peter quoted the Old Testament in saying we're to be holy as God is holy. The scriptures are clear that we are accountable for the standard God set forth. Does this mean that humans will ever achieve sinless perfection here in this present world? I don't think so. But that does not absolve us of our accountability to God for meeting the standard He set forth for us. It is a carnal mindset that tries to use our humanity as an excuse for falling short (see Romans 3:23).
Good post.
Charlie Brown
02-14-2007, 03:26 PM
It's much like what someone said to me in another forum...
"You're saying that God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections! Friend, that is utterly impossible. If that were possible, then Jesus' blood on Calvary was not necessary.
No one is saying we get a "pass." I am only stating reality here. You have every right to state that your opinion is the right one and that you know it's right and that your interpretation is the right one. I disagree with your conclusion which, in my opinion, is way off base. Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are and was without sin. We, however, are not Jesus and will NEVER meet His standard on our own, in our flesh. That is what imputed righteousness is for. It "takes up the slack" if you will when we fall short of God's perfection.
The only way we are accountable to God for meeting His standard of perfection is when we trust in HIS righteousness. It is the ONLY way for us to measure up. That is not an excuse for licentiousness or sinful behavior, but is the only reality there is unless you subscribe to the doctrine of "sinless perfection." If so, then I know where you're coming from and it still doesn't fit with reality in the life of ANYONE I have ever known or met, including those who preach it."
It is the wickedness of trying to set the word of God apart from so-called "reality" (as if to say that the Bible does not represent reality) that is at the core of the carnality you describe.
For the record, I do believe that "God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections." Jesus made this clear when He said to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect and when Peter quoted the Old Testament in saying we're to be holy as God is holy. The scriptures are clear that we are accountable for the standard God set forth. Does this mean that humans will ever achieve sinless perfection here in this present world? I don't think so. But that does not absolve us of our accountability to God for meeting the standard He set forth for us. It is a carnal mindset that tries to use our humanity as an excuse for falling short (see Romans 3:23).
The key to the bolded is that you stated that we will never meet His standards in our flesh. You are correct.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
As long as we are living in the flesh we cannot measure up.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
But since we are to live after the Spirit now that we have been born again, we can "BY THE SPIRIT" measure up. The sad fact is though, that we walk more in the flesh than we do in the spirit because of our lack of discipline, therefore we make bumper stickers that say "I'm not perfect, just forgiven".
The key to the bolded is that you stated that we will never meet His standards in our flesh. You are correct.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
As long as we are living in the flesh we cannot measure up.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
But since we are to live after the Spirit now that we have been born again, we can "BY THE SPIRIT" measure up. The sad fact is though, that we walk more in the flesh than we do in the spirit because of our lack of discipline, therefore we make bumper stickers that say "I'm not perfect, just forgiven".I wasn't the one who stated it. However, the truth of the matter is that our failure to measure up is no excuse: God's standard is what it is. It is the carnal mind that tries to cite our fallen humanity as an excuse for falling short of God's standard.
Michael The Disciple
02-14-2007, 11:16 PM
It's much like what someone said to me in another forum...
"You're saying that God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections! Friend, that is utterly impossible. If that were possible, then Jesus' blood on Calvary was not necessary.
No one is saying we get a "pass." I am only stating reality here. You have every right to state that your opinion is the right one and that you know it's right and that your interpretation is the right one. I disagree with your conclusion which, in my opinion, is way off base. Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are and was without sin. We, however, are not Jesus and will NEVER meet His standard on our own, in our flesh. That is what imputed righteousness is for. It "takes up the slack" if you will when we fall short of God's perfection.
The only way we are accountable to God for meeting His standard of perfection is when we trust in HIS righteousness. It is the ONLY way for us to measure up. That is not an excuse for licentiousness or sinful behavior, but is the only reality there is unless you subscribe to the doctrine of "sinless perfection." If so, then I know where you're coming from and it still doesn't fit with reality in the life of ANYONE I have ever known or met, including those who preach it."
It is the wickedness of trying to set the word of God apart from so-called "reality" (as if to say that the Bible does not represent reality) that is at the core of the carnality you describe.
For the record, I do believe that "God expects us to meet His absolute, perfect and holy standard, even in the midst of our human imperfections." Jesus made this clear when He said to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect and when Peter quoted the Old Testament in saying we're to be holy as God is holy. The scriptures are clear that we are accountable for the standard God set forth. Does this mean that humans will ever achieve sinless perfection here in this present world? I don't think so. But that does not absolve us of our accountability to God for meeting the standard He set forth for us. It is a carnal mindset that tries to use our humanity as an excuse for falling short (see Romans 3:23).
Ok so which way is it? You are saying 2 things. On one hand no one can ever be perfect except Jesus. Then you add you disagree with being without sin (sinless perfection).
Then you finish by saying we ARE accountable for the standard Christ set forth.Well yes on the second point you are right. Christ will not excuse those whose works are not perfect.
Look very, very, carefully at what Jesus said to MOST of the members of the Sardis Church. Would our Lord rebuke his people if their works are not perfect?
Listen to his words:
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev. 3:2
That which follows.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:3-5
The consequences are horrifying. Names blotted out.
Brother Price
02-15-2007, 06:25 AM
The whole of the standards issue will never be settled. Some have made it a salvation issue, and some have not. Some have said long sleeves only, and some have said short sleeve is acceptable. Some have said no makeup or jewelry, and some have said some is acceptable, so long as it is modest. There is such a distinction.
Recently, I lost my baby cousin, who was more like my baby brother. We were raised together, and he was my age. I remember this past Saturday so vividly, as we said a farewell to him. Now, when one is staring death in the face, especially the death of a loved one so very close to you, suddenly standards do not matter. Dress or pants no longer bother you. You are only wonder if that person was baptized in Jesus' name, repented of their sins, and was filled with the Holy Ghost. You weep at the thought of them possibly not making, or not knowing for sure. Standards fly out the window, and you are more concerned about the soul than anything else.
I am still a believer in standards, do not get me wrong. But, in the glimpse of all, we have made too many dividing lines about such. We have separated too much about such. Paul said in 1Corinthians 2:1-5, "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." He preached Christ and him crucified.
We are living in a generation who will know their God, and they will see what holiness is all about. We will not need to make division over such menial issues as dress length or sleeve length. We will see young people, and old alike, experience Jesus Christ. As they do so, they will change and become holy before Him. But, they way this is done is through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, first and foremost. Took me some time to stop the foolishness of damning souls to Hell who were not 100% as I was, but I feel I am getting there. Looking at my 'baby brother' in that casket was enough to crush my heart hard.
LadyChocolate
02-15-2007, 06:50 AM
Am I just a block head, or is there a ridiculous amount of carnality in the church today? Thinks that would have made granny weep before the Lord are now shouted from the housetop.
:ranting
YEs, there is too much carnality....Too much lack of reverance for the things of God. I've heard some of the most vulgar talk come out of a preacher during his message that would make me hang my head in embarrassment. I also have seen way too much of a relaxed approach toward being in his presence... When I younger, I remember I wasn't able to sit in HIS presence without my heart being moved on. Especially if I had sin in my life...Conviction, NOT condemnation, drove me to the altar...I wouldn't leave God's house the same as when I came. I may stumble and fall, but I found my way to the altar. Now I see the saints, Not "sinners" sitting on a pew, knowing they weren't right, and they aren't moved. Church has become just a routine habit and the spirit of God doesn't move them. Sad... Who's to blame? Themselves to begin with.....And if there is a lot of carnality coming from the pulpit, then some changes need to be made there...But Felicity nailed it...........Prayer Prayer Prayer...Because when you truely pray your way thru and tarry before the Lord, you won't leave changed and it will make a great impact on services...
The real problem is that there's LESS of a lot of things that there used to be MORE of. Like consecration, commitment, prayer, fasting, sacrificial service, and prayer.
Did I mention prayer?! :)
AMEN AMEN AMEN
I have heard Christian cynics say about folks " they are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good". I choose to say rather that "if they aren't heavenly minded the ARE no earthly good!"
The whole of the standards issue will never be settled. Some have made it a salvation issue, and some have not. Some have said long sleeves only, and some have said short sleeve is acceptable. Some have said no makeup or jewelry, and some have said some is acceptable, so long as it is modest. There is such a distinction.
Recently, I lost my baby cousin, who was more like my baby brother. We were raised together, and he was my age. I remember this past Saturday so vividly, as we said a farewell to him. Now, when one is staring death in the face, especially the death of a loved one so very close to you, suddenly standards do not matter. Dress or pants no longer bother you. You are only wonder if that person was baptized in Jesus' name, repented of their sins, and was filled with the Holy Ghost. You weep at the thought of them possibly not making, or not knowing for sure. Standards fly out the window, and you are more concerned about the soul than anything else.
I am still a believer in standards, do not get me wrong. But, in the glimpse of all, we have made too many dividing lines about such. We have separated too much about such. Paul said in 1Corinthians 2:1-5, "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." He preached Christ and him crucified.
We are living in a generation who will know their God, and they will see what holiness is all about. We will not need to make division over such menial issues as dress length or sleeve length. We will see young people, and old alike, experience Jesus Christ. As they do so, they will change and become holy before Him. But, they way this is done is through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, first and foremost. Took me some time to stop the foolishness of damning souls to Hell who were not 100% as I was, but I feel I am getting there. Looking at my 'baby brother' in that casket was enough to crush my heart hard.
Brother, I am soo sorry for your loss.....However, you said a mouthful...I completely totally understand where you are coming from....I believe the message like I always have, but in my area, soooo much focus was placed on standards that we were not getting the sincere Word of God. So many people were being preached into hell about their clothes, or tv glances, or whatever, that no longer did conviction move sinners to the altar, but condemnation weighed on us. I like it when God moves His people....and I am very conservative.....but the standards issue gets old after that's all you hear....not in all churches, I've only been to mine!!
OneAccord
02-15-2007, 07:05 AM
The whole of the standards issue will never be settled. Some have made it a salvation issue, and some have not. Some have said long sleeves only, and some have said short sleeve is acceptable. Some have said no makeup or jewelry, and some have said some is acceptable, so long as it is modest. There is such a distinction.
Recently, I lost my baby cousin, who was more like my baby brother. We were raised together, and he was my age. I remember this past Saturday so vividly, as we said a farewell to him. Now, when one is staring death in the face, especially the death of a loved one so very close to you, suddenly standards do not matter. Dress or pants no longer bother you. You are only wonder if that person was baptized in Jesus' name, repented of their sins, and was filled with the Holy Ghost. You weep at the thought of them possibly not making, or not knowing for sure. Standards fly out the window, and you are more concerned about the soul than anything else.
I am still a believer in standards, do not get me wrong. But, in the glimpse of all, we have made too many dividing lines about such. We have separated too much about such. Paul said in 1Corinthians 2:1-5, "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." He preached Christ and him crucified.
We are living in a generation who will know their God, and they will see what holiness is all about. We will not need to make division over such menial issues as dress length or sleeve length. We will see young people, and old alike, experience Jesus Christ. As they do so, they will change and become holy before Him. But, they way this is done is through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, first and foremost. Took me some time to stop the foolishness of damning souls to Hell who were not 100% as I was, but I feel I am getting there. Looking at my 'baby brother' in that casket was enough to crush my heart hard.
First, Bro. price, I want to express my sorrow for your loss. I know this was difficult for you and you have my prayers. Secondly, this is a very good post. Sometimes I think we look at what we see as carnality in the church and we try to fix the problem by emphasizing prayer, more rigid standards, and more study, but, in truth, it seems we are treating the symtoms of carnality and have missed the real problem. Yes, there is a carnal mindset among many people, but that is a symtom of the real problem. The real problem is as you stated, the division among the churches. Look at Pauls words:
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? He clearly states that division and strife is the underlying cause of carnality in the local church. I Corinthians begins with Paul dealing with the lives of division that were being drawn between the brethern. They were a divided church, divided over many issues, one of which was water baptism. Paul said this division was the cause of the carnality among them. Throughout the book, Paul found it necessary to deal with subjects like adultery, incest, divorce, etc.
James wrote in Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work. The divisions among us over virtually every issue opens the door for carnal behavior, carnal mindsets, if you will. We see lines drawn between us today over just about any issue you can name, and along with it, we see all kinds of behavior that has no place in God's Kingdom. We make the mistake that, in order for us to achieve "perfection", we'll all look the same, dress the same, believe the same, speak the same, and act the same. Ain't gonna happen. Didn't happen in the Bible, and ain't gonna happen now. But, when (and if) we ever reach perfection, we WILL look like Jesus. We will talk like Jesus and we'll live our lives like Him. We'll stop trying to "conform to standards" and start "conforming to His image". No, standards don't go out the window. We'll live by the standards of His life, and we'll stop looking out the windows to see if our neighbors are as holy as we are.
Thank you for a good word. If we could just learn to live by the words below, wouldn't we just be one big happy family?
Ok so which way is it? You are saying 2 things. On one hand no one can ever be perfect except Jesus. Then you add you disagree with being without sin (sinless perfection).I said that none of us ARE perfect and I said that our humanity (sinful nature) is no excuse for not meeting God's standard.
Then you finish by saying we ARE accountable for the standard Christ set forth.Well yes on the second point you are right. Christ will not excuse those whose works are not perfect.Yes, the standard remains and we are accountable for it. We do not get to use our humanity as an excuse.
Look very, very, carefully at what Jesus said to MOST of the members of the Sardis Church. Would our Lord rebuke his people if their works are not perfect?
Listen to his words:
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Rev. 3:2
It looks to me as though He did, in fact, rebuke His people because their works were not perfect. Again, the standard remains and we are accountable for it.
That which follows.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:3-5
I'm not sure this communicates the doctrine of sinless perfection. We must acknowledge that we all have a sinful nature and are constantly fighting a war within us between that nature and God's Spirit that is forming His nature within us. Again, though, that does not change God's standard of moral perfection and that does not absolve us of that standard.
The consequences are horrifying. Names blotted out.It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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