When Fashion Controls the Church....

[revrandy]

It seems at least where I'm from many of the more conservative churches dress to the nines... and most who visit come away stating something about a fashion show.
On another forum a choir was mentioned not about what they sang (which was good) but how they were dressed. And from my experiance by visiting the church....acceptance and fashion seem to hold hands...

It starts from the top.... another conservative church near us the Bishops Married Daughter who's husband will be Pastor has a Monthly Clothing allowance from the church that is extremely generous.

Most of the more conservative churches seem to be alot about fashion and dress... They may preach modesty in dress but seem to excuse moderation in dress...maybe that's an out...:hmmm

I did find it interesting in one church that is considered to be Ultra-Conservative that the Pastor's wife while "holy" in dress wore a very large expressive hat in every service that seemed to say "I may dress by the standard but at least I can wear Hats"....:D

I don't know that it matters.... but when folks come to visit I would think most would rather walk away saying that was one of the nicest church's they had been too... and not saying.. "what a fashion show"...

These churches while "Holy" seem to be seperated by fashion... and your accepted by the way you are dressed...

It's definately NOT right...

anybody else chime in??

[Sister Alvear]

I don't think my opinion would be popular...

[Michlow]

It seems at least where I'm from many of the more conservative churches dress to the nines... and most who visit come away stating something about a fashion show.
On another forum a choir was mentioned not about what they sang (which was good) but how they were dressed. And from my experiance by visiting the church....acceptance and fashion seem to hold hands...

It starts from the top.... another conservative church near us the Bishops Married Daughter who's husband will be Pastor has a Monthly Clothing allowance from the church that is extremely generous.

Most of the more conservative churches seem to be alot about fashion and dress... They may preach modesty in dress but seem to excuse moderation in dress...maybe that's an out...:hmmm

I did find it interesting in one church that is considered to be Ultra-Conservative that the Pastor's wife while "holy" in dress wore a very large expressive hat in every service that seemed to say "I may dress by the standard but at least I can wear Hats"....:D

I don't know that it matters.... but when folks come to visit I would think most would rather walk away saying that was one of the nicest church's they had been too... and not saying.. "what a fashion show"...

These churches while "Holy" seem to be seperated by fashion... and your accepted by the way you are dressed...

It's definately NOT right...

anybody else chime in??

I am by nature a person that is somewhat casual in dress. I tend to view people that are too "fancy" as pretentious and afraid to get their hands dirty.

Another problem I have with the whole church fashion show, is I believe that it creates a class distinction, causes people to spend too much money on clothes in trying to keep up with the jones', and takes the focus off the reason why we are there.

But like I said, I am a totally down to earth, what you see is what you get, trasparent kind of person, so I am sure I am totally biased in this.

[revrandy]

I don't think my opinion would be popular...

Feel free Sis. Alvear.. I need a good whuppin' now and again..

[ILG]

This is something that always bothered me about the UPC. It seems so hypocritical to criticize a piece of jewelry on someone and then dress to the nines in every UPC sanctioned way. To me, dressing to the nines violates the spirit of 1 Pet. 3:3,4 whereas a little jewelry does not. That's the problem with legalism. Rules can't enforce the spirit of the letter.

[Steve Epley]

You might be suprized some of these fashions might very well come from Goodwill and consignment stores.

[OGIA]

rr, in my limited time back in the "church" (4 years now), I've seen the same thing you are talking about. I just wonder why you harp on and seem to limit it to the conservative churches? Anywho..........

I agree that there are far too many who use church as an occassion to dress to "the nines". There's nothing inherently wrong with that until it becomes an issue of the flesh. I have to be aware of it myself, being blessed with things in the clothing realm that others may not have.

But, brother, why do you focus so much on the conservative churches? Do you think "they" are exempt from error? YOU, like my wife (who is not in truth and WILL NOT even visit my church), seem to think that because a particular church holds to a stricter standard of dress that ALL are perfect. That's silly.

Why don't you mention the ones who DO dress modestly, because these are the ones who have it "right" (pun intended). My best friend and his wife are getting more and more conservative the longer they are in church (he prayed through a week before I did). He is now licensed locally. He and his wife are a class act when it comes to standards. You NEVER see her wearing anything flashy, yet she looks like she could met the President (or more importantly, the LORD!) at anytime of the day. Yeah, she "dresses down" sometimes, but she still looks very classy.

Why don't you talk about those people? Why do you think everyone is perfect or has this standards thing down, exhibiting humility and grace?

Why? Just for argument's sake, I think. Quit grouping everyone in the same class. If you want to start dressing more casual in your church (if you haven't), then PLEASE, PLEASE......go ahead! Don't try to justify it by others' faults.

It just seems like you're trying to justify a desire for wanting to change to be more casual by attacking what the ones who don't live the conservative life to YOUR standards (no pun intended) do. Just because they get caught up in the flesh doesn't mean that there's not a group who don't.

[Old Paths]

You might be suprized some of these fashions might very well come from Goodwill and consignment stores.



And K&G.


:D

[IBCrazier2]

You might be suprized some of these fashions might very well come from Goodwill and consignment stores.


My wife regularly gets boutique brand clothes at the goodwill with the store tags still on them for a couple of dollars each.

[IBCrazier2]

And K&G.


:D


HEY NOW!

K&G is hard to beat. :hypercoffee

[Michlow]

You might be suprized some of these fashions might very well come from Goodwill and consignment stores.

But what about the whole "appearance of evil" thing ;)

[revrandy]

rr, in my limited time back in the "church" (4 years now), I've seen the same thing you are talking about. I just wonder why you harp on and seem to limit it to the conservative churches? Anywho..........

If you've seen the same thing it's not just a West Coast thing.. then...

I agree that there are far too many who use church as an occassion to dress to "the nines". There's nothing inherently wrong with that until it becomes an issue of the flesh. I have to be aware of it myself, being blessed with things in the clothing realm that others may not have.

But, brother, why do you focus so much on the conservative churches? Do you think "they" are exempt from error? YOU, like my wife (who is not in truth and WILL NOT even visit my church), seem to think that because a particular church holds to a stricter standard of dress that ALL are perfect. That's silly.

Why don't you mention the ones who DO dress modestly, because these are the ones who have it "right" (pun intended). My best friend and his wife are getting more and more conservative the longer they are in church (he prayed through a week before I did). He is now licensed locally. He and his wife are a class act when it comes to standards. You NEVER see her wearing anything flashy, yet she looks like she could met the President (or more importantly, the LORD!) at anytime of the day. Yeah, she "dresses down" sometimes, but she still looks very classy.

Why don't you talk about those people? Why do you think everyone is perfect or has this standards thing down, exhibiting humility and grace?

Why not address it? It starts from the Top down.. not from the bottom up...

Why? Just for argument's sake, I think. Quit grouping everyone in the same class. If you want to start dressing more casual in your church (if you haven't), then PLEASE, PLEASE......go ahead! Don't try to justify it by others' faults.

It just seems like you're trying to justify a desire for wanting to change to be more casual by attacking what the ones who don't live the conservative life to YOUR standards (no pun intended) do. Just because they get caught up in the flesh doesn't mean that there's not a group who don't.

How about more friendlier?? Maybe more accepting of Folks?? are maybe just more like Jesus was???


You could be right.. But I haven't attended more liberal churches so I wouldn't know... I have attended some awesome conservative churches that felt good...

For example a Good Conservative church we attended was Thad's Church... People were really friendly & had a good spirit..... and there wasn't a "I dress Better than you Spirit"...

[OGIA]

You could be right.. But I haven't attended more liberal churches so I wouldn't know... I have attended some awesome conservative churches that felt good...

For example a Good Conservative church we attended was Thad's Church... People were really friendly & had a good spirit..... and there wasn't a "I dress Better than you Spirit"...So, you agree that "dressing to the nines" for the flesh is just as wrong in Benny Hinn's church as it is in Bro. Epley's church?

[Steve Epley]

And K&G.


:D

Yep and the Alley.

I like my wife to dress nice and not ashamed of it. We hardly go anywhere that someone does not compliment her on her clothing (unsaved folks). Our nieces look nice and the majority of their clothes come from Goodwill or discount store. I don't wear bib overalls to church or flannel shirts however someone would be welcome wearing them. I try to look nice I represent a King and I am His messenger I don't want to embarrass Him. What is "to the nines"??????????????????????? Some folk are naturally sloppy and have not hardly any care about their appearance it is a natural thing with them and has nothing to do with moderation. Being sloppy and unkempt might be homely but is not humbleness. My thoughts.

[ILG]

You might be suprized some of these fashions might very well come from Goodwill and consignment stores.

I buy at Goodwill all the time. You can get some excellent deals there. I buy some very nice quality clothing for very cheap. To me, this thread isn't about quality clothing. It is about the spirit of the letter. Re: Dressing to the nines.

[revrandy]

So, you agree that "dressing to the nines" for the flesh is just as wrong in Benny Hinn's church as it is in Bro. Epley's church?

Yep and the Alley.

I like my wife to dress nice and not ashamed of it. We hardly go anywhere that someone does not compliment her on her clothing (unsaved folks). Our nieces look nice and the majority of their clothes come from Goodwill or discount store. I don't wear bib overalls to church or flannel shirts however someone would be welcome wearing them. I try to look nice I represent a King and I am His messenger I don't want to embarrass Him. What is "to the nines"??????????????????????? Some folk are naturally sloppy and have not hardly any care about their appearance it is a natural thing with them and has nothing to do with moderation. Being sloppy and unkempt might be homely but is not humbleness. My thoughts.


Dressing Well is not the Problem... but the attitude & spirit behind the dress...

[revrandy]

I buy at Goodwill all the time. You can get some excellent deals there. I buy some very nice quality clothing for very cheap. To me, this thread isn't about quality clothing. It is about the spirit of the letter. Re: Dressing to the nines.

BINGO!!! We have a WINNER!! :)

[Michlow]

Yep and the Alley.

I like my wife to dress nice and not ashamed of it. We hardly go anywhere that someone does not compliment her on her clothing (unsaved folks). Our nieces look nice and the majority of their clothes come from Goodwill or discount store. I don't wear bib overalls to church or flannel shirts however someone would be welcome wearing them. I try to look nice I represent a King and I am His messenger I don't want to embarrass Him. What is "to the nines"??????????????????????? Some folk are naturally sloppy and have not hardly any care about their appearance it is a natural thing with them and has nothing to do with moderation. Being sloppy and unkempt might be homely but is not humbleness. My thoughts.

I am casual, but don't think I am sloppy and unkempt. I guess it is the attitude behind it more than anything else. So many people who are "dressy" or "fancy" as I like to think of them, are always obsessed with their appearance. Can't sit in the grass, it might stain my dress. Can't pick up the baby, their hands might be dirty, oops...can't do that, it might mess up my beautiful hair-do.

[revrandy]

I and My wife do our best to dress well... but we also make sure that we are friendly to everybody too..

[OGIA]

I buy at Goodwill all the time. You can get some excellent deals there. I buy some very nice quality clothing for very cheap. To me, this thread isn't about quality clothing. It is about the spirit of the letter. Re: Dressing to the nines.

BINGO!!! We have a WINNER!! :)But why do persist in focusing ONLY on the conservative churches? You seem to think they should "know better"? Is this attitude in any of the congregation you pastor?

[ManOfWord]

HEY NOW!

K&G is hard to beat. :hypercoffee


Now we're talkin'!!!

K & G is my favorite place to go so I can dress to the "nines" and only pay to the "twos!" :D

[revrandy]

But why do persist in focusing ONLY on the conservative churches? You seem to think they should "know better"? Is this attitude in any of the congregation you pastor?

OGIA... you stated yourself there's a problem... why not address it?

I am NOT attacking just stating an issue that's now seems to be prevelant... :donuts

[ILG]

I am casual, but don't think I am sloppy and unkempt. I guess it is the attitude behind it more than anything else. So many people who are "dressy" or "fancy" as I like to think of them, are always obsessed with their appearance. Can't sit in the grass, it might stain my dress. Can't pick up the baby, their hands might be dirty, oops...can't do that, it might mess up my beautiful hair-do.

I think the main thing that the scripture if trying to say when it addressed adornment is to NOT be obsessed with your appearance. Look nice, sure. But it's not everything.

[Steve Epley]

Dressing Well is not the Problem... but the attitude & spirit behind the dress...

I was from an area where folks thought homliness was holiness, no neck ties, very plain dressing you know what they also has an attitude. The women wore their hair stringing. But I think church is the most important thing you are going to do more important than meeting the bank manager so why not look nice? We have saints who do not wear ties but most do and also ladies who dress very plain it is their preference however some folks do dress up I pastor them all they are all good folks. Why should I wear combat boots and jeans because someone might be offended because my suit is pressed, my shirt is starched, my shoes are shined, my tie is nice, what little hair I have is combed, and I have some smell good on? EVERYONE is welcome and feel welcome here I pastor one of the friendliest churches in Pentecost bar none.

[The Kid]

I used to go to church with a guy (who now has a minister's license) who worshiped labels more than his Father in heaven.

I have never seen anyone like him. He was telling me how his kid HAD to wear a certain label from Dillards/Macy's and his wife, the purses and shoes, his Calloway slacks and golf clubs and his Mercedes and his coffee creamer...

He also told me how he was making a sacrifice so that he could belong to a semi-public golf course that was long as a putt putt, but he had to maintain his lifestyle.

...I found out however he was doing alot of this charade using the equity in his house. Whadda moron! Talk about worshiping wood hay and stubble.

[revrandy]

I was from an area where folks thought homliness was holiness, no neck ties, very plain dressing you know what they also has an attitude. The women wore their hair stringing. But I think church is the most important thing you are going to do more important than meeting the bank manager so why not look nice? We have saints who do not wear ties but most do and also ladies who dress very plain it is their preference however some folks do dress up I pastor them all they are all good folks. Why should I wear combat boots and jeans because someone might be offended because my suit is pressed, my shirt is starched, my shoes are shined, my tie is nice, what little hair I have is combed, and I have some smell good on? EVERYONE is welcome and feel welcome here I pastor one of the friendliest churches in Pentecost bar none.

I believe this!!

[ILG]

But why do persist in focusing ONLY on the conservative churches? You seem to think they should "know better"? Is this attitude in any of the congregation you pastor?

I think one reason is that conservative churches (I am speaking in generalizations here) are hypocritical in that they focus SO MUCH on adornment saying WE are the ones who TRULY follow the scripture here!! And then often violate the spirit of the letter in dress while following every church rule.

[OGIA]

OGIA... you stated yourself there's a problem... why not address it?

I am NOT attacking just stating an issue that's now seems to be prevelant... :donutsHow would you like me to address it other than what I already posted? I told you that some have it and some don't. Some like to look nice, but that's not what going to church is about.

Why don't you address why you constantly harp on conservative churches (which you claim to pastor, if I'm not mistaken) as if they are full of PERFECT saints?

Why not address that humans are imperfect and that you can find this type of attitude in probably EVERY church in this world??

[The Kid]

I was from an area where folks thought homliness was holiness, no neck ties, very plain dressing you know what they also has an attitude. The women wore their hair stringing. But I think church is the most important thing you are going to do more important than meeting the bank manager so why not look nice? We have saints who do not wear ties but most do and also ladies who dress very plain it is their preference however some folks do dress up I pastor them all they are all good folks. Why should I wear combat boots and jeans because someone might be offended because my suit is pressed, my shirt is starched, my shoes are shined, my tie is nice, what little hair I have is combed, and I have some smell good on? EVERYONE is welcome and feel welcome here I pastor one of the friendliest churches in Pentecost bar none.


Personally, I like to go to church feeling comfortable more than primped. Do you think God really cares if we are wearing our Sunday best? Or is it for the people?

[revrandy]

I think one reason is that conservative churches (I am speaking in generalizations here) are hypocritical in that they focus SO MUCH on adornment saying WE are the ones who TRULY follow the scripture here!! And then often violate the spirit of the letter in dress while following every church rule.

Sis.. we are not all without fault here...

I'm just addressing an issue that some have... NOT all...

[Pastor Keith]

rr, in my limited time back in the "church" (4 years now), I've seen the same thing you are talking about. I just wonder why you harp on and seem to limit it to the conservative churches? Anywho..........

I agree that there are far too many who use church as an occassion to dress to "the nines". There's nothing inherently wrong with that until it becomes an issue of the flesh. I have to be aware of it myself, being blessed with things in the clothing realm that others may not have.

But, brother, why do you focus so much on the conservative churches? Do you think "they" are exempt from error? YOU, like my wife (who is not in truth and WILL NOT even visit my church), seem to think that because a particular church holds to a stricter standard of dress that ALL are perfect. That's silly.

Why don't you mention the ones who DO dress modestly, because these are the ones who have it "right" (pun intended). My best friend and his wife are getting more and more conservative the longer they are in church (he prayed through a week before I did). He is now licensed locally. He and his wife are a class act when it comes to standards. You NEVER see her wearing anything flashy, yet she looks like she could met the President (or more importantly, the LORD!) at anytime of the day. Yeah, she "dresses down" sometimes, but she still looks very classy.

Why don't you talk about those people? Why do you think everyone is perfect or has this standards thing down, exhibiting humility and grace?

Why? Just for argument's sake, I think. Quit grouping everyone in the same class. If you want to start dressing more casual in your church (if you haven't), then PLEASE, PLEASE......go ahead! Don't try to justify it by others' faults.

It just seems like you're trying to justify a desire for wanting to change to be more casual by attacking what the ones who don't live the conservative life to YOUR standards (no pun intended) do. Just because they get caught up in the flesh doesn't mean that there's not a group who don't.

The issue is not putting anything that causes people to stumble over before they get to see Jesus. We have to become more missional in our churches approach in reaching people.

A fisherman (Randy Should Know this to well) doesn't fish with bait he likes, he fishes what is attractive to the fish. Pentecost has got to become more incarnational in its approach. In case your wondering what that means Jesus (God) incarnated himself in flesh, a specific culture with the practices of that culture. He didn't demand allegiance to his nature and his holiness first before a relationship could be established.

Dressing up is tradition, nothing wrong with it, but sinners and outcasts shouldn't feel intimidated by it and be blinded so they can't see the true celebrity and ultimate friend of sinners, Jesus.

[Steve Epley]

I used to go to church with a guy (who now has a minister's license) who worshiped labels more than his Father in heaven.

I have never seen anyone like him. He was telling me how his kid HAD to wear a certain label from Dillards/Macy's and his wife, the purses and shoes, his Calloway slacks and golf clubs and his Mercedes and his coffee creamer...

He also told me how he was making a sacrifice so that he could belong to a semi-public golf course that was long as a putt putt, but he had to maintain his lifestyle.

...I found out however he was doing alot of this charade using the equity in his house. Whadda moron! Talk about worshiping wood hay and stubble.

What foolishness God certainly would not be pleased with this I agree particularly that golf business.:donuts

[ILG]

Sis.. we are not all without fault here...

I'm just addressing an issue that some have... NOT all...

That is why I clarified saying "I am speaking in generalizations here". ;)

[revrandy]

How would you like me to address it other than what I already posted? I told you that some have it and some don't. Some like to look nice, but that's not what going to church is about.

Why don't you address why you constantly harp on conservative churches (which you claim to pastor, if I'm not mistaken) as if they are full of PERFECT saints?

Why not address that humans are imperfect and that you can find this type of attitude in probably EVERY church in this world??

Never claimed to Pastor..you are mistaken...:)

OGIA... Are bait & switching?? :D

[OGIA]

I think one reason is that conservative churches (I am speaking in generalizations here) are hypocritical in that they focus SO MUCH on adornment saying WE are the ones who TRULY follow the scripture here!! And then often violate the spirit of the letter in dress while following every church rule.Well, what about the liberal who is into "casual" but who does the very same thing as these conservatives do on Sunday morning? I've been to some liberal churches where it is quite evident some dressed for the crowd and not for the Lord.

It's all over the Chrisitian world. Why focus on one group? Well, it's evident why, but it doesn't wash.

[OGIA]

Never claimed to Pastor..you are mistaken...:) My bad. From here and CAF I gathered that you were.


OGIA... Are bait & switching?? :D If I am, I don't know it, because I'm not quite sure what the tactic entails. :largehalo

Enlighten me.

[warrior81680]

Now we're talkin'!!!

K & G is my favorite place to go so I can dress to the "nines" and only pay to the "twos!" :D

A bit slow today....

Some help me with a def on K&G, please?

[Pastor Keith]

Well, what about the liberal who is into "casual" but who does the very same thing as these conservatives do on Sunday morning? I've been to some liberal churches where it is quite evident some dressed for the crowd and not for the Lord.

It's all over the Chrisitian world. Why focus on one group? Well, it's evident why, but it doesn't wash.

Because basically it's inconsistent.

[ForeverBlessed]

Sis.. we are not all without fault here...

I'm just addressing an issue that some have... NOT all...
I know exactly what issue are addressing. True modesty comes from the heart and encompasses much more than being covered.

It is being discussed in a 3 part series on Family Life Today..

http://www.familylife.com/fltoday/default.asp

[OGIA]

The issue is not putting anything that causes people to stumble over before they get to see Jesus. We have to become more missional in our churches approach in reaching people.

A fisherman (Randy Should Know this to well) doesn't fish with bait what he likes, he fishes what is attractive to the fish. Pentecost has got to become more incarnational in its approach. In case your wondering what that means Jesus (God) incarnated himself in flesh, a specific culture with the practices of that culture. He didn't demand allegiance to his nature and his holiness first before a relationship could be established.

Dressing up is tradition, nothing wrong with it, but sinners and outcasts shouldn't feel intimidated by it and be blinded so they can't see the true celebrity and ultimate friend of sinners, Jesus.I can't disagree with anything here, so I'm not sure why you quoted me?

[OGIA]

Because basically it's inconsistent.Moreso than in any other who's doing it for the same reason?


I think not.

[ManOfWord]

A bit slow today....

Some help me with a def on K&G, please?

K & G Men's (and women's) clothing store. Discount prices for great looking clothing.

[revrandy]

Moreso than in any other who's doing it for the same reason?


I think not.

OGIA... You are admirable in your defense.. but as you stated earlier.. you found it to be true too...

The best way to change things is to start with ourselves (NOT Saying you have this problem)...

But I want to do my best to MAKE everybody feel they are important to me and the Kingdom!!

[warrior81680]

K & G Men's (and women's) clothing store. Discount prices for great looking clothing.

LOL! Just what you said! Here I am looking for an actual word to go with K and G!:lol

Gracias, Senor!

[ILG]

Well, what about the liberal who is into "casual" but who does the very same thing as these conservatives do on Sunday morning? I've been to some liberal churches where it is quite evident some dressed for the crowd and not for the Lord.

It's all over the Chrisitian world. Why focus on one group? Well, it's evident why, but it doesn't wash.

Well.....breaking the spirit of what the Bible says about adornment is not okay for anybody to do, liberal or conservative. I think the reason that conservatives get so much flack for it is because conservatives often put themselves above liberals as being the ones who are 'doing it right'.

[revrandy]

LOL! Just what you said! Here I am looking for an actual word to go with K and G!:lol

Gracias, Senor!

Knott and Grind...

Kite and Gonar...

Knit and Goiter...

:D

[MrsMcD]

Well.....breaking the spirit of what the Bible says about adornment is not okay for anybody to do, liberal or conservative. I think the reason that conservatives get so much flack for it is because conservatives often put themselves above liberals as being the ones who are 'doing it right'.

You are probably right.

[OGIA]

OGIA... You are admirable in your defense.. but as you stated earlier.. you found it to be true too...

The best way to change things is to start with ourselves (NOT Saying you have this problem)...This is not what I'm arguing about. I'm confronting this "us vs. them" mentality! You seem to hold conservatives to a higher standard than any others. Why is that? They don't. Not the ones I'm speaking of, anyway. The ones YOU'RE referencing would be the very same ones doing this whether in a liberal UPC, a RCC or any church in America. But, you seem to only think it's a conservative's problem. I don't get that.


But I want to do my best to MAKE everybody feel they are important to me and the Kingdom!! I'm not sure what this has to do with dressing nice? :dunno

[Pastor Keith]

This is not what I'm arguing about. I'm confronting this "us vs. them" mentality! You seem to hold conservatives to a higher standard than any others. Why is that? They don't. Not the ones I'm speaking of, anyway. The ones YOU'RE referencing would be the very same ones doing this whether in a liberal UPC, a RCC or any church in America. But, you seem to only think it's a conservative's problem. I don't get that.


I'm not sure what this has to do with dressing nice? :dunno

Ever heard the term power dressing, power suit, power tie. But it really comes down to motives, if all the focus is on you wether you have nice clothing or less than nice clothing if your thoughts are about you the sin is the same, pride.

[OGIA]

I think the reason that conservatives get so much flack for it is because conservatives often put themselves above liberals as being the ones who are 'doing it right'.And it continues.............. :rolleyes2

When you prove to me that all liberals are perfect, then come back and make such generalizations.

[revrandy]

This is not what I'm arguing about. I'm confronting this "us vs. them" mentality! You seem to hold conservatives to a higher standard than any others. Why is that? They don't. Not the ones I'm speaking of, anyway. The ones YOU'RE referencing would be the very same ones doing this whether in a liberal UPC, a RCC or any church in America. But, you seem to only think it's a conservative's problem. I don't get that.


I'm not sure what this has to do with dressing nice? :dunno

Read ILG's post...

[Steve Epley]

This casual look that the Charismatics are pushing looking like they are going to golf rather than to church turns me off. It is as false as they are. Like the presidental canidates running around with flannel shirts and jeans driving a pickup and eating at Wendy's and don't know how to order. It is all an act.

[Fireside]

I am confused.

I thought conservative Apostolic women were blue denim whales who are always slopped out in jean skirts and Keds tennis shoes.

Which is it?

I guess it just depends on which tactic the critics want to use on a given day to try and take shots at Apostolic churches.:)

[OGIA]

Ever heard the term power dressing, power suit, power tie. But it really comes down to motives, if all the focus is on you wether you have nice clothing or less than nice clothing if your thoughts are about you the sin is the same, pride.And this is a sin be it in a UC church, a less UC church, a conservative-liberal church, a moderately liberal church or grossly liberal church.....OF ANY KIND! :rolleyes2

[Steve Epley]

I am confused.

I thought conservative Apostolic women were blue denim whales who are always slopped out in jean skirts and Keds tennis shoes.

Which is it?

I guess it just depends on which tactic the critics want to use on a given day to try and take shots at Apostolic churches.:)

There is NO making them happy. Jean skirts like whales or a nice dress from Goodwill and shoes that actually match. It is the separation they hate not the so-called issues they fuss about.

[revrandy]

I am confused.

I thought conservative Apostolic women were blue denim whales who are always slopped out in jean skirts and Keds tennis shoes.

Which is it?

I guess it just depends on which tactic the critics want to use on a given day to try and take shots at Apostolic churches.:)

Probaly the difference between Kansas and California...:)

[MrsMcD]

In my area, hardly anyone really dresses up for church anymore. Our UPC church, never dresses really nice. A few may wear a suit on Sunday morning. The platform dress has no standard as far as hose, sandals, etc.

The other churches in town don't dress nice either. It's pretty much the same a few wear suits to church. Most of the ladies in other churches wear pants to church.

I didn't know people still dress up for church. When I was growing up, our Sunday services were like a competition to see who could dress the best.

[MrsMcD]

I am confused.

I thought conservative Apostolic women were blue denim whales who are always slopped out in jean skirts and Keds tennis shoes.

Which is it?

I guess it just depends on which tactic the critics want to use on a given day to try and take shots at Apostolic churches.:)

LOL - good point CS.

[Fireside]

There is NO making them happy. Jean skirts like whales or a nice dress from Goodwill and shoes that actually match. It is the separation they hate not the so-called issues they fuss about.

Bullseye.

[Old Paths]

A bit slow today....

Some help me with a def on K&G, please?


&G Men's Company, Inc Company Profile


Well suited for its customers' shopping habits, K&G Men's Company operates about 75 deep-discount men's clothing superstores in 25 states. Typically located in warehouses and strip malls, the stores feature brand-name and private-label tailored and casual clothing, footwear, and accessories. The bargain warehouse-type stores are between 5,400 and 50,000 sq. ft. and offer first-run merchandise at prices 30%-70% lower than department stores. Founded in 1989, The Men's Wearhouse purchased K&G in 1999, converted most of its value outlets to the K&G Superstore banner, and began adding women's clothes to stores.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/47/47751.html

[revrandy]

There is NO making them happy. Jean skirts like whales or a nice dress from Goodwill and shoes that actually match. It is the separation they hate not the so-called issues they fuss about.

Maybe some of them do....

But you haven't said the problem doesn't exist...

[Pressing-On]

As the Lord enlarged Abraham's tent and made him a wealthy man the only premise we can now stand on is:

If you can't worship with the fur on - take it off.

If you can't worship because your wallet is too full - lighten the load and give.

:preach

[Steve Epley]

Maybe some of them do....

But you haven't said the problem doesn't exist...

PRIDE is the problem and no doubt some have it and those who flaunt themselves need a trip to the altar. However some folks just naturally are attractive and when they dress nice it generates jealousy. So I think both ends need regular trips to the cross to crucify the flesh. But I do not think cruxificion means homliness. You can look nice and not be filled with pride.

[Pressing-On]

PRIDE is the problem and no doubt some have it and those who flaunt themselves need a trip to the altar. However some folks just naturally are attractive and when they dress nice it generates jealousy. So I think both ends need regular trips to the cross to crucify the flesh. But I do not think cruxificion means homliness. You can look nice and not be filled with pride.

Now that will preach, Brother Epley!!!! Excellent!!!!

[revrandy]

PRIDE is the problem and no doubt some have it and those who flaunt themselves need a trip to the altar. However some folks just naturally are attractive and when they dress nice it generates jealousy. So I think both ends need regular trips to the cross to crucify the flesh. But I do not think cruxificion means homliness. You can look nice and not be filled with pride.

Good Post...

and yes... I completely understand your "naturally attractive" comment...I live with it daily.... sometimes it's a blessing sometimes a curse.....








:D:D:D

[CC1]

My church is far from perfect but one thing that I really like about it is how hit handles this issue of dress at church.

Every Sunday I look around me and there is the most eclectic mix of dress you can imagine. On the same pew you will see men in nice suits or sport coats, ties, etc sitting by men with jeans or Khaki pants on.

Same with the ladies. On the same pew are ones in very nice dresses and others with casual clothing on.

Dress is absolutey NOT the focus at my church so I have never seen anybody dressed up look down their nose at someone by them who is not.

I understand both the arguement for dressing up for church (showing God you care and honoring him with your best) and the one for not making church a dress up formal experience but one where you can be comfortable, not showy.

I think sometimes that divide has to do with peoples perspectives of God. Conservatives who tend to look at God in terms of judgement, rules, wrath, etc are the ones who usually dress to the nines and sometimes the result is a fashion show intimidating to visitors.

Moderates and libs tend to look at God more as a friend, father figure, etc. As a more intimate figure and thus feel more comfortable dressing casually when worshipping Him at church.

Some of those folks carry it to an extreme and you end up with preachers who think if they are not preaching in a Hawaiian shirt that doesn't tuck in you are not right.

[OGIA]

I completely understand your "naturally attractive" comment...I live with it daily.... sometimes it's a blessing sometimes a curse.....
Mosquitoes don't count................

[Pastor Keith]

Hey I liked to really dress nice, I wore very nice suits, still do on occasion. In my closet I have Armani, have had Brioni, Boss. Versace ties, Format Ties (the best ever) I have Johnston and Murphy before they became mall stores etc.

But my desire to reach the common man and relate to him became greater than fitting in among my brethren and my tradition that I was raised in.

It would be good for all to read how Hudson Taylor of the famed China Inland Mission reached the masses, but of course many on here will discount him because he wasn't saved, didn't have truth, the old mantra.

He shaved his head, grew a pony tail and learned the language, left the Western mission cites and lived with the Chinese people, the result when the Western Mission agencies with their American idealism, standards of living and conduct could only convince a few to be won to the Lord, Hudson won thousands, you should read the blistering criticism that the other missionaries said about him.

This radical incarnational mindset we must capture again if we are to make an impact in our world.

[revrandy]

My church is far from perfect but one thing that I really like about it is how hit handles this issue of dress at church.

Every Sunday I look around me and there is the most eclectic mix of dress you can imagine. On the same pew you will see men in nice suits or sport coats, ties, etc sitting by men with jeans or Khaki pants on.

Same with the ladies. On the same pew are ones in very nice dresses and others with casual clothing on.

Dress is absolutey NOT the focus at my church so I have never seen anybody dressed up look down their nose at someone by them who is not.

I understand both the arguement for dressing up for church (showing God you care and honoring him with your best) and the one for not making church a dress up formal experience but one where you can be comfortable, not showy.

I think sometimes that divide has to do with peoples perspectives of God. Conservatives who tend to look at God in terms of judgement, rules, wrath, etc are the ones who usually dress to the nines and sometimes the result is a fashion show intimidating to visitors.

Moderates and libs tend to look at God more as a friend, father figure, etc. As a more intimate figure and thus feel more comfortable dressing casually when worshipping Him at church.

Some of those folks carry it to an extreme and you end up with preachers who think if they are not preaching in a Hawaiian shirt that doesn't tuck in you are not right.

Good Post...

[revrandy]

Hey I liked to really dress nice, I wore very nice suits, still do on occasion. In my closet I have Armani, have had Brioni, Boss. Versace ties, Format Ties (the best ever) I have Johnston and Murphy before the became mall stores etc. But my desire to reach the common man and relate to him became greater than fitting in among my brethren.

It would be good to read how Hudson Taylor of the famed China Inland Mission reached the masses, but of course many on here will discount him because he wasn't saved, didn't have truth, the old mantra.

He shaved his head, grew a pony tail and learned the language, left the Western mission cites and lived with the Chinese people, the result when the Western Mission agencies with their American idealism, standards of living and conduct could only convince a few to be won to the Lord, Hudson won thousands, you should read the blistering criticism that the other missionaries said about him.

This radical incarnational mindset we must capture again if we are to make an impact in our world.


If you shave your head and grow a pony tail... I will not be able to go fishing with you unless you tuck it into your Texas Longhorns Ballcap!!

[josh]

It seems at least where I'm from many of the more conservative churches dress to the nines... and most who visit come away stating something about a fashion show.
On another forum a choir was mentioned not about what they sang (which was good) but how they were dressed. And from my experiance by visiting the church....acceptance and fashion seem to hold hands...

It starts from the top.... another conservative church near us the Bishops Married Daughter who's husband will be Pastor has a Monthly Clothing allowance from the church that is extremely generous.

Most of the more conservative churches seem to be alot about fashion and dress... They may preach modesty in dress but seem to excuse moderation in dress...maybe that's an out...:hmmm

I did find it interesting in one church that is considered to be Ultra-Conservative that the Pastor's wife while "holy" in dress wore a very large expressive hat in every service that seemed to say "I may dress by the standard but at least I can wear Hats"....:D

I don't know that it matters.... but when folks come to visit I would think most would rather walk away saying that was one of the nicest church's they had been too... and not saying.. "what a fashion show"...

These churches while "Holy" seem to be seperated by fashion... and your accepted by the way you are dressed...

It's definately NOT right...

anybody else chime in??

You been to Gen Conf lately?

Your description may apply to churches that are conservative from a general Protestant spectrum, but in the UPC I think your view is based on a few certain churches around you.

[revrandy]

You been to Gen Conf lately?

Your description may apply to churches that are conservative from a general Protestant spectrum, but in the UPC I think your view is based on a few certain churches around you.

I did say..at least where I'm from.. and yes... GC seems to be very fashionable.. of late...

[warrior81680]

Hey I liked to really dress nice, I wore very nice suits, still do on occasion. In my closet I have Armani, have had Brioni, Boss. Versace ties, Format Ties (the best ever) I have Johnston and Murphy before they became mall stores etc.

But my desire to reach the common man and relate to him became greater than fitting in among my brethren and my tradition that I was raised in.

It would be good for all to read how Hudson Taylor of the famed China Inland Mission reached the masses, but of course many on here will discount him because he wasn't saved, didn't have truth, the old mantra.

He shaved his head, grew a pony tail and learned the language, left the Western mission cites and lived with the Chinese people, the result when the Western Mission agencies with their American idealism, standards of living and conduct could only convince a few to be won to the Lord, Hudson won thousands, you should read the blistering criticism that the other missionaries said about him.

This radical incarnational mindset we must capture again if we are to make an impact in our world.


The old mantra--"gotta be like 'em to win 'em".

:beatdeadhorse

[Whole Hearted]

This casual look that the Charismatics are pushing looking like they are going to golf rather than to church turns me off. It is as false as they are. Like the presidental canidates running around with flannel shirts and jeans driving a pickup and eating at Wendy's and don't know how to order. It is all an act.

AMEN BROTHER

[Whole Hearted]

I am confused.

I thought conservative Apostolic women were blue denim whales who are always slopped out in jean skirts and Keds tennis shoes.

Which is it?

I guess it just depends on which tactic the critics want to use on a given day to try and take shots at Apostolic churches.:)

:woot :yahoo :slaphappy :toofunny

[Whole Hearted]

Well we don't spend alot of money on clothes. My wife can find those bargains. But we and the church people dress nice for church. We are way out in the country and some of the men may be wearing boots, but they are always nicely dress. All the men on the platform wear at least dress pants, dress shirt and tie. Our people come dressed for church.

My family dress nice. My wife can sew if need be. But yet very little is spent on cloths. She find good stuff at resale shops, some times with the tags still on them. My wife and daughter wear hats and all. Some would say we dress to the nines, but we keep the right attitude. I don't believe in spending alot on cloths or buying costly array (clothes). But one can look nice and not do that. Example Sunday night my daughter had on a nice black suit ($25.00 at a wholesale shop in Houston) a black hat my wife found marked down to $10.00 and nice black shop found at an outlet store for $15.00. I know preacher who spend more that this whole outfit cost for one necktie.

One can look real nice and not spend alot of money or have a better that you attitude. I have seen people dressed very casual who had a better that you attitude.

[Pastor Keith]

The old mantra--"gotta be like 'em to win 'em".

:beatdeadhorse

Become all things to all men, that I might when some! Let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus....

[warrior81680]

Become all things to all men, that I might when some! Let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus....

I appreciate the thought here, Keith, but Jesus did NOT become LIKE the people He was winning.

This is out of context.

[Whole Hearted]

I appreciate the thought here, Keith, but Jesus did NOT become LIKE the people He was winning.This is out of context.

AMEN

[Newman]

I think sometimes that divide has to do with peoples perspectives of God. Conservatives who tend to look at God in terms of judgement, rules, wrath, etc are the ones who usually dress to the nines and sometimes the result is a fashion show intimidating to visitors.

Moderates and libs tend to look at God more as a friend, father figure, etc. As a more intimate figure and thus feel more comfortable dressing casually when worshipping Him at church.

Some of those folks carry it to an extreme and you end up with preachers who think if they are not preaching in a Hawaiian shirt that doesn't tuck in you are not right.

Certainly there is some disconnect in condemning limited jewelry but embracing costly array. But I do believe that both miss the point that Paul was making. It's not about what you wear on the outside that matters most but the inside that counts. And so I enter this discussion believing that both jewelry and costly array may be ok given the right circumstances.

Nevertheless, I have got to admit that I am conflicted by the whole thing. :coffee2

Dressing with Distinction
I do believe that the more "separated" from the fashions of the world; the more likely there will be a totally different culture in the church that occurs naturally as the body of believers creates their own society and ways to be legitimately noticed and recognized as distinctive from the uniform otherwise worn.

Is this all bad? Heavens no. Its refreshing to walk into the House of God and see good and wonderful people who are there to worship in their finest. It is so Norman Rockwell to walk into church as a family with one's Sunday attire that includes Rothchild coats for little girls and suits and ties for boys.

It is easy to bring your children up to live "above" the crowd at school when there is something wonderfully connected going on at church. It is like raising up royalty and isn't that what we are doing?

Toll on Visitors
HOWEVER....it is hard on visitors. And makes the visiting children stick out like sore thumbs. For some it works and when they come to Christ they can't wait to put on new clothes that signal they are part of that particular church body.

But for others; there is a discomfort that they can't get past. They won't be caught dead in a suit; even for their funeral.

And so we weigh traditional church clothes that promote a most wonderful feeling for those that wear them against the backdrop of welcoming others to place where they too can worship God without being embarrased by what they have to come to church in. There are no easy answers....

Message to Our Children
But I do believe we should cut the Conservatives slack who choose to worship God in their finest. It certainly sends a message to their children that isn't all bad.

The House of God is special as you are. No need to adapt to the lack of morality and lack of reverence of this world. Amen? :cool:

[Theresa]

You might be suprized some of these fashions might very well come from Goodwill and consignment stores.

I'm sure in some cases they are...

but not the majority....

[Pastor Keith]

I appreciate the thought here, Keith, but Jesus did NOT become LIKE the people He was winning.

This is out of context.

Oh yes he did, yet without sin, come on we are talking about packaging and presentation, do you actually thing that he could have influence without.

The whole of the incarnation is about becoming a man, to save man.

[Pastor Keith]

Certainly there is some disconnect in condemning limited jewelry but embracing costly array. But I do believe that both miss the point that Paul was making. It's not about what you wear on the outside that matters most but the inside that counts. And so I enter this discussion believing that both jewelry and costly array may be ok given the right circumstances.

Nevertheless, I have got to admit that I am conflicted by the whole thing. :coffee2

Dressing with Distinction
I do believe that the more "separated" from the fashions of the world; the more likely there will be a totally different culture in the church that occurs naturally as the body of believers creates their own society and ways to be legitimately noticed and recognized as distinctive from the uniform otherwise worn.

Is this all bad? Heavens no. Its refreshing to walk into the House of God and see good and wonderful people who are there to worship in their finest. It is so Norman Rockwell to walk into church as a family with one's Sunday attire that includes Rothchild coats for little girls and suits and ties for boys.

It is easy to bring your children up to live "above" the crowd at school when there is something wonderfully connected going on at church. It is like raising up royalty and isn't that what we are doing?

Toll on Visitors
HOWEVER....it is hard on visitors. And makes the visiting children stick out like sore thumbs. For some it works and when they come to Christ they can't wait to put on new clothes that signal they are part of that particular church body.

But for others; there is a discomfort that they can't get past. They won't be caught dead in a suit; even for their funeral.

And so we weigh traditional church clothes that promote a most wonderful feeling for those that wear them against the backdrop of welcoming others to place where they too can worship God without being embarrased by what they have to come to church in. There are no easy answers....

Message to Our Children
But I do believe we should cut the Conservatives slack who choose to worship God in their finest. It certainly sends a message to their children that isn't all bad.

The House of God is special as you are. No need to adapt to the lack of morality and lack of reverence of this world. Amen? :cool:


Newman you have legitimate points, but the mission of the church is not us, it is to be outward focused.

The house of God is special? Newman the house of God is you, not a building, the days of the temple and the specialness of sacred building are long gone, would to God people act and be as spiritual all week long as they do those 3 hours on Sunday.

[MrsMcD]

Newman you have legitimate points, but the mission of the church is not us, it is to be outward focused.

The house of God is special? Newman the house of God is you, not a building, the days of the temple and the specialness of sacred building are long gone, would to God people act and be as spiritual all week long as they do those 3 hours on Sunday.

This is the way I see it also.

[warrior81680]

I appreciate the thought here, Keith, but Jesus did NOT become LIKE the people He was winning.

This is out of context.

Oh yes he did, yet without sin, come on we are talking about packaging and presentation, do you actually thing that he could have influence without.

The whole of the incarnation is about becoming a man, to save man.

I have no argument with Jesus being God and man to save man, but being LIKE the people He was winning is incorrect.

If He became LIKE them, why did they need to change?

Did He step out of being God to invite them to be like Him and then they both stepped into the Godly realm together?

Now, as far as Him desiring them to be like Him, He did cause them to LIKE Him, which was accomplished by Him dealing with them on their level.

Is the above sentence what you are trying to say?

[HeavenlyOne]

Oh yes he did, yet without sin, come on we are talking about packaging and presentation, do you actually thing that he could have influence without.

The whole of the incarnation is about becoming a man, to save man.

Excellent point!

Also, 'becoming all things to all men' doesn't mean Paul became a drunk to win drunks, or a prostitute to win prostitutes. It's more like, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I believe Paul adapted to the cultural and societal rules and mores so he would be more on their level instead of seeming to be above (or below) them, according to the culture he was visiting.

Jesus didn't travel outside of his country, but I don't believe He'd have done differently than Paul did if He had.

[Pastor Keith]

I have no argument with Jesus being God and man to save man, but being LIKE the people He was winning is incorrect.

If He became LIKE them, why did they need to change?

Did He step out of being God to invite them to be like Him and then they both stepped into the Godly realm together?

Now, as far as Him desiring them to be like Him, He did cause them to LIKE Him, which was accomplished by Him dealing with them on their level.

Is the above sentence what you are trying to say?

It is really is amazing people are unaware about the incarnational aspect of Jesus's coming. He came to a specific culture and enculurated himself into that culture, yet he was counter culutural. That is the tension. How do you live, become a part of a specific culture yet stand apart, we have made it about clothing, and things, I think we have missed the much deeper meaning.

We must become more like missionarys overseas, the worse thing a failing missionary will do is that they try do to is raise up a western style church.

This seed of the Gospel is so fertile and powerful that if you plant it within the soil of peoples dirty lives that fruit of holiness will comeforth, but first you have to be willing to get dirty.

Instead we open of the windows of our sacred spaces throw a little seed out and tell ourselves if people were really hungry then they would get out of the ground they are living in and come to our sacred spaces. WRONG, WRONG!

[HeavenlyOne]

Newman you have legitimate points, but the mission of the church is not us, it is to be outward focused.

The house of God is special? Newman the house of God is you, not a building, the days of the temple and the specialness of sacred building are long gone, would to God people act and be as spiritual all week long as they do those 3 hours on Sunday.

I think in the context she was speaking, she is correct. We respect the building we are in even though we are the church. Even Paul spoke about respect and order in the church building....but he called it 'the church'.

[OGIA]

If He became LIKE them, why did they need to change?Good point that I didn't see you address, Keith. :popcorn2

[warrior81680]

It is really is amazing people are unaware about the incarnational aspect of Jesus's coming. He came to a specific culture and enculurated himself into that culture, yet he was counter culutural. That is the tension. How do you live, become a part of a specific culture yet stand apart, we have made it about clothing, and things, I think we have missed the much deeper meaning.

We must become more like missionarys overseas, the worse thing a failing missionary will do is that they try do to is raise up a western style church.

This seed of the Gospel is so fertile and powerful that if you plant it within the soil of peoples dirty lives that fruit of holiness will comeforth, but first you have to be willing to get dirty.

Instead we open of the windows of our sacred spaces throw a little seed out and tell ourselves if people were really hungry then they would get out of the ground they are living in and come to our sacred spaces. WRONG, WRONG!

Not sure what you are meaning in relationship to my post, but Jesus was in the culture of His time and lived accordingly..."Render unto Caesar..."

Perhaps we are on the same track here, but I am not sure.

Jesus went to where the people were, but his lifestyle was such that people wanted to change from what they were to what He was.

Don't know where the Western style church missionary enters in here...?

A little help, Keith?

[Pastor Keith]

Good point that I didn't see you address, Keith. :popcorn2

They had to change the sin factor and sinfulness of their hearts, not what they wore to temple.

I have actually heard salvation and conversion equated, with well that brother is wearing a suit and tie now, Sister so and so is now wearing a skirt.

Now in the greater context of modesty great, glad that person has their conscience awakened about modesty, decorum, but to equate salvation and health of a church body based on those small issues is to miss the larger picture.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Now in the greater context of modesty great, glad that person has their conscience awakened about modesty, decorum, but to equate salvation and health of a church body based on those small issues is to miss the larger picture.

Imagine all those saved Mennonite and Amish folk.....:preach

[warrior81680]

They had to change the sin factor and sinfulness of their hearts, not what they wore to temple.

I have actually heard salvation and conversion equated, with well that brother is wearing a suit and tie now, Sister so and so is now wearing a skirt.

Now in the greater context of modesty great, glad that person has their conscience awakened about modesty, decorum, but to equate salvation and health of a church body based on those small issues is to miss the larger picture.

Oh, I see where you are going now.

Hmmm...

Do you think Jesus wore immodest clothing (being LIKE them) when He was trying to win them?

I'm sure I know your answer, but...

[Pastor Keith]

Not sure what you are meaning in relationship to my post, but Jesus was in the culture of His time and lived accordingly..."Render unto Caesar..."

Perhaps we are on the same track here, but I am not sure.

Jesus went to where the people were, but his lifestyle was such that people wanted to change from what they were to what He was.

Don't know where the Western style church missionary enters in here...?

A little help, Keith?

Ok, in Pentecost we have set of values, culture, a package and presentation that has nothing to do with the core of Christianity, now granted we interpret and apply some principles and we get what we get.

The missionary thing is to take the application of those principles and across the board not contextualize them within the culture we are trying to reach. When missionaries and agencies that support them fail at contextualizing the truth of God then their mission will fail.

My example of Hudson Taylor fits in here.

In our culture, you only dress up for formal occasions or business situations.

Now by human nature, people who come to hear about God will be affected by this tendency that in order to encounter God I might have to dress up and become like they do, this is where we miss it. We have to purposely fight this so as not to confuse our culture with message. There I hope you get it, if you don't oh well, as Dr. McGraw says, either you get or you don't.

[Pastor Keith]

Oh, I see where you are going now.

Hmmm...

Do you think Jesus wore immodest clothing (being LIKE them) when He was trying to win them?

I'm sure I know your answer, but...

Well yeah, he did, hung naked on cross to bear my shame!

[HeavenlyOne]

Excellent point!

Also, 'becoming all things to all men' doesn't mean Paul became a drunk to win drunks, or a prostitute to win prostitutes. It's more like, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I believe Paul adapted to the cultural and societal rules and mores so he would be more on their level instead of seeming to be above (or below) them, according to the culture he was visiting.

Jesus didn't travel outside of his country, but I don't believe He'd have done differently than Paul did if He had.

Bump for those who are claiming that Jesus didn't become all things to all men.

[HeavenlyOne]

Oh, I see where you are going now.

Hmmm...

Do you think Jesus wore immodest clothing (being LIKE them) when He was trying to win them?

I'm sure I know your answer, but...

They wore immodest clothing in Jesus' day??? That was the culture at the time???

I don't think so. Why do people go to the extremes to make a point that doesn't exist?

[warrior81680]

Ok, in Pentecost we have set of values, culture, a package and presentation that has nothing to do with the core of Christianity, now granted we interpret and apply some principles and we get what we get.

The missionary thing is to take the application of those principles and across the board not contextualize them within the culture we are trying to reach. When missionaries and agencies that support them fail at contextualizing the truth of God then their mission will fail.

My example of Hudson Taylor fits in here.

In our culture, you only dress up for formal occasions or business situations.

Now by human nature, people who come to hear about God will be affected by this tendency that in order to encounter God I might have to dress up and become like they do, this is where we miss it. We have to purposely fight this so as not to confuse our culture with message. There I hope you get it, if you don't oh well, as Dr. McGraw says, either you get or you don't.

I believe you said Hudson Taylor adopted a ponytail. Scripture declares long hair on a man as a shame.

We can go into other cultures and adapt to them, yet never violate Scriptural principles.

[warrior81680]

Well yeah, he did, hung naked on cross to bear my shame!

That was not His choice, Keith.

It was the choice of those crucifying Him.

[HeavenlyOne]

Oh, I see where you are going now.

Hmmm...

Do you think Jesus wore immodest clothing (being LIKE them) when He was trying to win them?

I'm sure I know your answer, but...

There were a lot of cultural customs that were practiced in that day that would be immodest in our culture today.

For instance, people didn't wear underclothes back then. It was common to fish naked or with hardly anything on.

There are cultures today where, according to our culture, they are immodest, but if you teach them to cover themselves, it would be insulting to their culture. In some cultures, women being topless is common and it's their culture. Men wearing only a loincloth is modest in their culture.

Even in our own culture, if we compare how we dress today to 100 years ago, we are immodest in our dress, especially the women, yet we see nothing wrong with it today.

Modesty is defined by each culture. Teaching modesty instead of a clothesline will not steer you wrong, no matter where you preach.

I believe this is why you never read of Paul preaching clothesline to the churches he visited. There was no way he could do that.

[warrior81680]

They wore immodest clothing in Jesus' day??? That was the culture at the time???

I don't think so. Why do people go to the extremes to make a point that doesn't exist?

Human nature is the same, regardless of when in time we are referring to.

They had immodest clothing in their day, also. Not everyone was "saved" just because they lived in Israel or were Jewish in their heritage.

[Pastor Keith]

I believe you said Hudson Taylor adopted a ponytail. Scripture declares long hair on a man as a shame.

We can go into other cultures and adapt to them, yet never violate Scriptural principles.


Well, we let God judge him then, the ultimate test besides clear scripture is the fruit, "Wisdom is justified by her children".

[HeavenlyOne]

I believe you said Hudson Taylor adopted a ponytail. Scripture declares long hair on a man as a shame.

We can go into other cultures and adapt to them, yet never violate Scriptural principles.

Again, long hair on a man is a shame depending on the culture. We have several scriptural examples of long hair on men that was completely acceptable, even without the Nazarite vow.

There are cultures where men don't cut their hair. Notice that Paul didn't preach the long hair on men issue to all the churches.

[Pastor Keith]

Human nature is the same, regardless of when in time we are referring to.

They had immodest clothing in their day, also. Not everyone was "saved" just because they lived in Israel or were Jewish in their heritage.

The whole point of the book of Galatians was that in order to be saved you didn't have to become a cultural Jew, the Gospel stands alone outside of any culture or contexualization. In Pentecost we must not make or lead people to believe that they must be a part of our culture or how we interpret or apply the Gospel to our unique setting.

By the way, our(most) missionaries don't require their converts to look like their Western Brethren.

[HeavenlyOne]

Human nature is the same, regardless of when in time we are referring to.

They had immodest clothing in their day, also. Not everyone was "saved" just because they lived in Israel or were Jewish in their heritage.

They might have had immodest clothing, but it wasn't the norm nor was it cultural, so to say that Jesus didn't adapt to that as if it was normal is incorrect logic.

So, what did Paul mean when he said he became all things to all men? And how does what he did differ from what Jesus would have done had He travelled?

[warrior81680]

I believe in some areas here we are arguing apples to oranges.

I have no problem with cultural differences as long as they do not violate Scripture. Scripture has to take precedence above everything.

It is nature that teaches that long hair is a shame unto a man, not culture.

[Pastor Keith]

I believe in some areas here we are arguing apples to oranges.

I have no problem with cultural differences as long as they do not violate Scripture. Scripture has to take precedence above everything.

It is nature that teaches that long hair is a shame unto a man, not culture.

Here is one for you,

Slavery is wrong, immoral, and yet Paul because of the culture of that day, slavery was rampant and to overthrow it or advocate such action would cause major societial/economic upheavel.

Yet Paul in writing to believing slaves told them to be faithful to their masters, he even wrote believing masters and told them to treat their slaves as brothers in the Lord, the whole book of Philemon deals with this subject matter.

Of course he knew that eventually the heart converted would cause slavery to diminish yet he contextualized a sticky issue so that the Gospel could move forward. This I think was a application of becoming all things to all men.

[Pastor Keith]

If I may, here is some thoughts from Ed Stetzer in a blog that he writes.

The subject is contextualizing the Gospel into the culture.

But, the Bible also clearly gives us a mandate to make the message understandable. We do more than just translate it into a language. We also have to translate it into a culture. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:22-23, "I have become all things to all men." Why? Because the message needs to be contextualized. The "how" of ministry is, in many ways, determined by the "who, when, and where" of culture. That's also essential.

We have to both contend and contextualize. This brings a balanced focus in our proclamation and practice. When we contend for the gospel, we remain biblically faithful. When we contextualize, we communicate the message effectively. When we contend and contextualize, our churches are biblically faithful, culturally relevant, counter culture communities.

Those who preach against culture are often unaware that they live in one. But the dynamic culture around them is often not the culture of their church. What they yearn for is typically not a scriptural culture, but rather a nostalgic religious culture of days past. The irony of this is that every church is culturally relevant. It is simply a matter of whether the culture of the church is in any way similar to the culture of its community or only meaningful to itself.

[Scott Hutchinson]

You might be suprized some of these fashions might very well come from Goodwill and consignment stores.

Well I not a flashy dresser ,my wife works for Catholic social services ,alot of my suits come from their thrift shop.

[HeavenlyOne]

I believe in some areas here we are arguing apples to oranges.

I have no problem with cultural differences as long as they do not violate Scripture. Scripture has to take precedence above everything.

It is nature that teaches that long hair is a shame unto a man, not culture.

If nature taught it, then men wouldn't be able to grow long hair. There also wouldn't be examples in scripture where men had long hair and it was acceptable, not shameful.

[warrior81680]

If nature taught it, then men wouldn't be able to grow long hair. There also wouldn't be examples in scripture where men had long hair and it was acceptable, not shameful.

So we should just do away with Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 11?

[Scott Hutchinson]

A man may have a full set of hair ,but it's wrong for a man to have a femine look or length to his hair, just like a woman should have a femine length to her hair.She should not have a masculine looking haircut.
Not I'm not a hardnoser ,but men and women should have a differeing length of hair.

[OGIA]

They had to change the sin factor and sinfulness of their hearts, not what they wore to temple.

I have actually heard salvation and conversion equated, with well that brother is wearing a suit and tie now, Sister so and so is now wearing a skirt.

Now in the greater context of modesty great, glad that person has their conscience awakened about modesty, decorum, but to equate salvation and health of a church body based on those small issues is to miss the larger picture.Your comment to warrior was that Jesus became LIKE those He came to save. He disagreed, I disagree, and I still don't see that He did become LIKE those He saved. He became a man, yes; but, He didn't become "incarnate" into their society, dress, or behaviors that contradicted His holiness.

[nathan_slatter]

And K&G.


:D

That is a nice place to shop for decent suits. I shopped there a few times back when I used to wear suits. Now I wear jeans and a t-shirt. It's cheaper.

[nathan_slatter]

I am by nature a person that is somewhat casual in dress. I tend to view people that are too "fancy" as pretentious and afraid to get their hands dirty.

Another problem I have with the whole church fashion show, is I believe that it creates a class distinction, causes people to spend too much money on clothes in trying to keep up with the jones', and takes the focus off the reason why we are there.

But like I said, I am a totally down to earth, what you see is what you get, trasparent kind of person, so I am sure I am totally biased in this.

Yeah -- it's an exception when I "dress up". Most of the time it's a dickie's button up, with jeans and $10 Doc Martin knock offs.

[HeavenlyOne]

So we should just do away with Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 11?

Why? Is headship not that important?

What about Paul's writings to slaves? Do we throw those away or can we also glean something from them? We might not apply the specifics to our lives, but there certainly are principles involved, no?


Most of the first five books of the Bible don't apply to us, but we glean from them all the same, don't we?

Also understand that Paul says IF for a reason.....as "IF it be a shame....."

Apparently, he was considering other cultures also.

And what does 'long hair' even mean? In some cultures, hair to the shoulders isn't long, but in others it is. A lot to consider.

[nathan_slatter]

Your comment to warrior was that Jesus became LIKE those He came to save. He disagreed, I disagree, and I still don't see that He did become LIKE those He saved. He became a man, yes; but, He didn't become "incarnate" into their society, dress, or behaviors that contradicted His holiness.

Then why, if he didn't look like everyone else, did Judas have to kiss him on the cheek to show the high priest which man he was? :D

[HeavenlyOne]

A man may have a full set of hair ,but it's wrong for a man to have a femine look or length to his hair, just like a woman should have a femine length to her hair.She should not have a masculine looking haircut.
Not I'm not a hardnoser ,but men and women should have a differeing length of hair.

While I can agree with you, is this thinking Biblical or cultural?

[HeavenlyOne]

Your comment to warrior was that Jesus became LIKE those He came to save. He disagreed, I disagree, and I still don't see that He did become LIKE those He saved. He became a man, yes; but, He didn't become "incarnate" into their society, dress, or behaviors that contradicted His holiness.

When Paul became all things to all men, does that mean he adapted their society, behaviors, and dress?

And yes, Jesus did adapt to that. He was a Jew and lived according to Jewish law. He didn't live according to Gentile laws. His society, behavior, and dress was that of a Jew.

[HeavenlyOne]

Then why, if he didn't look like everyone else, did Judas have to kiss him on the cheek to show the high priest which man he was? :D

Thank you!!

[nathan_slatter]

When Paul became all things to all men, does that mean he adapted their society, behaviors, and dress?

And yes, Jesus did adapt to that. He was a Jew and lived according to Jewish law. He didn't live according to Gentile laws. His society, behavior, and dress was that of a Jew.

Good point... I think we often forget that Jesus wasn't Christian, Pentecostal, nor Apostolic... he was Jewish.

[Thad]

Randy,

I know exactly where you are coming from. we are from the same area. there are more than one daughter in our area that out dress everyone in their churches. we know where they go to shop in the city right? don't think some of their people don't notice and don't talk about the lifelstyles, the country clubs, the cars, neiman marcus,etc BUT they are conservative?? I'm not getting it. can someone fill in the blanks?
The picture that the world is seeing sums up with one word" INCONSISTANT!

[OGIA]

When Paul became all things to all men, does that mean he adapted their society, behaviors, and dress?No, I don't think so.


And yes, Jesus did adapt to that. He was a Jew and lived according to Jewish law. He didn't live according to Gentile laws. His society, behavior, and dress was that of a Jew. Jesus didn't adapt to anything that I can see. He was a Jew, born into a Jewish family. Where did He need to adapt?

[warrior81680]

Why? Is headship not that important?

What about Paul's writings to slaves? Do we throw those away or can we also glean something from them? We might not apply the specifics to our lives, but there certainly are principles involved, no?


Most of the first five books of the Bible don't apply to us, but we glean from them all the same, don't we?

Also understand that Paul says IF for a reason.....as "IF it be a shame....."

Apparently, he was considering other cultures also.

And what does 'long hair' even mean? In some cultures, hair to the shoulders isn't long, but in others it is. A lot to consider.

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

This is what I am referring to.

[nathan_slatter]

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

This is what I am referring to.

I trim my hair so that it isn't long...

[Pastor Keith]

Your comment to warrior was that Jesus became LIKE those He came to save. He disagreed, I disagree, and I still don't see that He did become LIKE those He saved. He became a man, yes; but, He didn't become "incarnate" into their society, dress, or behaviors that contradicted His holiness.

And what about their society, dress and behaviors could he have violated that would have affected his holiness.

Others believed wrongly that when he hung out and ate with sinners that his holiness was affected. Come on this is elementary!

[warrior81680]

Then why, if he didn't look like everyone else, did Judas have to kiss him on the cheek to show the high priest which man he was? :D

Simple process of ID'ing the man, that's all.

[Scott Hutchinson]

But if you trim your hair and it would be something like flowing down your back or shoulder length it would still be long.
A man should not have flowing tresses of hair.

[Thad]

But if you trim your hair and it would be something like flowing down your back or shoulder length it would still be long.
A man should not have flowing tresses of hair.


the bible Equates it to the demonic

[nathan_slatter]

But if you trim your hair and it would be something like flowing down your back or shoulder length it would still be long.
A man should not have flowing tresses of hair.

*grin* Then females can trim their hair.

[nathan_slatter]

[/B]


the bible Equates it to the demonic

How so?

[MrsMcD]

But if you trim your hair and it would be something like flowing down your back or shoulder length it would still be long.
A man should not have flowing tresses of hair.

Samson did. :D

I'm not sure if it was flowing or not. lol

[nathan_slatter]

Simple process of ID'ing the man, that's all.

But shouldn't his "holiness" have made him stand out?

[nathan_slatter]

Samson did. :D

I'm not sure if it was flowing or not. lol

Samson was a pansy... :girlnails

[Thad]

How so?



the book of revelations describes such

[nathan_slatter]

the book of revelations describes such

Where?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Jesus I'm sure dressed like a conservative element of his society.
Here 's another question if Jesus was Jewish by race ,how about about Rahab being a Canaanite ,or Ruth who a Moabite ,Or Bathsheba being a Hitttite being in His Genealogy ?

[Thad]

Where?


I'll have to look it up.

[OGIA]

And what about their society, dress and behaviors could he have violated that would have affected his holiness.To become LIKE some of them, He could have committed adultery, lied, stole, etc. And, I'm certain there were those of His day who dressed immodestly, don't you think?


Others believed wrongly that when he hung out and ate with sinners that his holiness was affected. Come on this is elementary! What's elementary is that you're trying to use that Jesus became LIKE them incorrectly. He did become LIKE His creation, but only to a point. He was not incarnated into their society as He was incarnated into humanity. He did not assume their "nature" in the sense you're trying to promote it. He associated and even fellowshipped with sinners. I have no problem with that. But, He did NOT become LIKE those He was trying to save, except in the manner of His becoming human.

[HeavenlyOne]

Good point... I think we often forget that Jesus wasn't Christian, Pentecostal, nor Apostolic... he was Jewish.

Jesus didn't travel outside of his place of birth by over about 50 miles or so. Wherever He went, He was like all other men of His day.

I believe that when Paul said he became all things to all men, this means that he adapted to their cultural norms and societal laws. So, if he went to a culture where men wore headcoverings, he wore one also. If culture called for him to cover his arms to the wrist, he did so.

Paul was big on not being a stumblingblock. He didn't see anything wrong with some things, like eating meat offered to idols, but if it was going to cause someone to stumble or be offended, then he said don't do it.

I believe that if Paul went to a society where men didn't shave their heads, then Paul would have grown his hair long enough to where it didn't have a shaved appearance, even if he preferred that look for himself (if that's truly how he felt, I don't know, just throwing things out there).

If Paul went to a society where men grew beards, I believe Paul grew one.

I don't believe Paul joined them in their sin, as some believe Keith and I are suggesting. That's NOT what Paul meant in any way. However, I do believe that in his travels, he adapted to the culture in dress and behavior as to be like them to win them.

It's not different than what Jesus Himself did.

[Elizabeth]

I had a woman come up to me in church the other day, she had a very nice DKNY jean skirt on, (we dont really dress up in our church and her skirt looked better than your average jean skirt) I commented on it to her--she said, " I got it at Dillards and it was not on sale either, it's Donna Koran!" then she told me the price.

I bought the SAME skirt at TJMaxx and paid less than half what she did!

What is wrong with buying something on SALE??

[nathan_slatter]

Jesus didn't travel outside of his place of birth by over about 50 miles or so. Wherever He went, He was like all other men of His day.

I believe that when Paul said he became all things to all men, this means that he adapted to their cultural norms and societal laws. So, if he went to a culture where men wore headcoverings, he wore one also. If culture called for him to cover his arms to the wrist, he did so.

Paul was big on not being a stumblingblock. He didn't see anything wrong with some things, like eating meat offered to idols, but if it was going to cause someone to stumble or be offended, then he said don't do it.

I believe that if Paul went to a society where men didn't shave their heads, then Paul would have grown his hair long enough to where it didn't have a shaved appearance, even if he preferred that look for himself (if that's truly how he felt, I don't know, just throwing things out there).

If Paul went to a society where men grew beards, I believe Paul grew one.

I don't believe Paul joined them in their sin, as some believe Keith and I are suggesting. That's NOT what Paul meant in any way. However, I do believe that in his travels, he adapted to the culture in dress and behavior as to be like them to win them.

It's not different than what Jesus Himself did.

Oh, I completely agree with you. The problem is that some people consider your proposal an exercise in encouraging sin...

[nathan_slatter]

I had a woman come up to me in church the other day, she had a very nice Donna Koran jean skirt on, (we dont really dress up in our church and her skirt looked better than your average jean skirt) I commented on it to her--she said, " I got it at Dillards and it was not on sale either, it's DKNY!" then she told me the price.

I bought the SAME skirt at TJMaxx and paid less than half what she did!

What is wrong with buying something on SALE??

*grin* Who's Donna Koran?

[warrior81680]

Simple facts, folks.

Jesus did NOT violate any Scripture in trying to win them to Himself. That is the point I'm trying to make. He did not become like them to win them, pure and simple.

No matter who they were, He loved them and called them to follow Him. He did not change Himself or His message to fit with the culture.

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Samson did. :D

I'm not sure if it was flowing or not. lol

OT. though ,and people don't marry their relatives now.

[MrsMcD]

I had a woman come up to me in church the other day, she had a very nice DKNY jean skirt on, (we dont really dress up in our church and her skirt looked better than your average jean skirt) I commented on it to her--she said, " I got it at Dillards and it was not on sale either, it's Donna Koran!" then she told me the price.

I bought the SAME skirt at TJMaxx and paid less than half what she did!

What is wrong with buying something on SALE??

I try to ONLY buys things on sale. I wouldn't brag about NOT buying things on sale. That's called stupidity to me. :hypercoffee

[HeavenlyOne]

No, I don't think so.


Jesus didn't adapt to anything that I can see. He was a Jew, born into a Jewish family. Where did He need to adapt?

Uh....He was God. God isn't Jewish, however, when He made the choice to be born, He wasn't born a Samaritan, Greek, or any other Gentile. Had He been born one of those, He would have adapted to that culture and society and not been a Jew.

Ever wonder why God just didn't appear on the scene instead of being born and going through being human? It's not like He never appeared before men in the past, so why didn't He just come down as a man and start preaching?

Because He wouldn't have been accepted by anyone at all, that's why. He had to come down, adapt to being human, being a Jew, and living life as they did. This is something He'd never done before.

[CC1]

There were a lot of cultural customs that were practiced in that day that would be immodest in our culture today.

For instance, people didn't wear underclothes back then. It was common to fish naked or with hardly anything on.

There are cultures today where, according to our culture, they are immodest, but if you teach them to cover themselves, it would be insulting to their culture. In some cultures, women being topless is common and it's their culture. Men wearing only a loincloth is modest in their culture.

Even in our own culture, if we compare how we dress today to 100 years ago, we are immodest in our dress, especially the women, yet we see nothing wrong with it today.

Modesty is defined by each culture. Teaching modesty instead of a clothesline will not steer you wrong, no matter where you preach.

I believe this is why you never read of Paul preaching clothesline to the churches he visited. There was no way he could do that.

Next you will be trying to tell us that Jesus was not clean shaven!!

[revrandy]

To become LIKE some of them, He could have committed adultery, lied, stole, etc. And, I'm certain there were those of His day who dressed immodestly, don't you think?

this is interesting to me.. Were ALL adulterers or ALL Liars (I'll give you that one:D) Were all Theives? It seems that when your comment would libel everybody there.. The Bible says Corneilus was a Good Man who shunned evil.. I think your views are skewered in that you immediatly associate keiths view of the Lord with Sin.. and not people..You go below what Keith is trying to say...imo.. If I'm wrong call me on it.. but it would seem you take the Lord there to sway your arguement...

What's elementary is that you're trying to use that Jesus became LIKE them incorrectly. He did become LIKE His creation, but only to a point. He was not incarnated into their society as He was incarnated into humanity. He did not assume their "nature" in the sense you're trying to promote it. He associated and even fellowshipped with sinners. I have no problem with that. But, He did NOT become LIKE those He was trying to save, except in the manner of His becoming human.

The Last statement somewhat dimishes your first few... :popcorn2

[MrsMcD]

OT. though ,and people don't marry their relatives now.

Some people do. I heard it happens a lot in Alabama. :toofunny

[nathan_slatter]

Next you will be trying to tell us that Jesus was not clean shaven!!

BWAHAHAHAHA -- Jesus was clean shaven?

[Elizabeth]

To become LIKE some of them, He could have committed adultery, lied, stole, etc. And, I'm certain there were those of His day who dressed

In a sense, the sins of the world were placed on him on Calvary, as though he were an adulterer, lair, thief ect..


He did become one of us.

[nathan_slatter]

Some people do. I heard it happens a lot in Alabama. :toofunny

ROFLOL.... that's funny....

[Scott Hutchinson]

Some people do. I heard it happens a lot in Alabama. :toofunny

Seriously Though ,my dad has a first cousin ,and this cousin's mom and dad were first cousins.
But it don't happen much any more it goes on in Georgia though I bet.

[OGIA]

In a sense, the sins of the world were placed on him on Calvary, as though he were an adulterer, lair, thief ect..


He did become one of us.He became sin for us. He didn't become a sinner.

[HeavenlyOne]

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

This is what I am referring to.

What is 'nature' referring to?

nature

1. the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature
2. as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse
3. as opposed what has been produced by the art of man: the natural branches, i.e. branches by the operation of nature
4. birth, physical origin
5. a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature
6. the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts

I believe the definition in bold is the definition being used. This is a cultural definition. By asking the question, there is a possibility of the answer being 'no'. There are cultures in which long hair on men is common and acceptable, and if Paul asked them the above question, they would answer 'no'.

Obviously, Paul was speaking to a culture where long hair on men wasn't acceptable. John the Baptist never cut his hair, but I doubt Paul would have told him he was shameful in not doing so.

[Elizabeth]

*grin* Who's Donna Koran?

my neighbor :D

[revrandy]

Wow... So many arguements on the same thread... Cool...

Things are a poppin today...:popcorn2

[Elizabeth]

He became sin for us. He didn't become a sinner.

He didnt sin, but in a sense he did become a sinner in our place-

[Scott Hutchinson]

Jesus become a sin -offering ,but I don't think He became sin.
He suffered for sin ,but He wasn't punished for sin ,because being punished implies guilt ,which Christ had none ,because He had no fallen Adamic nature.

[Thad]

Randy,

I know exactly where you are coming from. we are from the same area. there are more than one daughter in our area that out dress everyone in their churches. we know where they go to shop in the city right? don't think some of their people don't notice and don't talk about the lifelstyles, the country clubs, the cars, neiman marcus,etc BUT they are conservative?? I'm not getting it. can someone fill in the blanks?
The picture that the world is seeing sums up with one word" INCONSISTANT!


bump for randy

[MrsMcD]

Seriously Though ,my dad has a first cousin ,and this cousin's mom and dad were first cousins.
But it don't happen much any more it goes on in Georgia though I bet.

It probably does. My sister is in CO now and she told me that people in CO make jokes about folks in Georgia marrying their relatives. I had no idea. LOL

[OGIA]

Uh....He was God. God isn't Jewish, however, when He made the choice to be born, He wasn't born a Samaritan, Greek, or any other Gentile. Had He been born one of those, He would have adapted to that culture and society and not been a Jew.

Ever wonder why God just didn't appear on the scene instead of being born and going through being human? It's not like He never appeared before men in the past, so why didn't He just come down as a man and start preaching?

Because He wouldn't have been accepted by anyone at all, that's why. He had to come down, adapt to being human, being a Jew, and living life as they did. This is something He'd never done before.Not sure I understand your point?

Jesus Christ didn't have to adapt to being human. He was/is human. Did you have to adapt to your humanity? I don't think I did.

[HeavenlyOne]

Oh, I completely agree with you. The problem is that some people consider your proposal an exercise in encouraging sin...

I would never suggest that Paul or Jesus sinned, but that's not what was meant by 'become all things to all men'.

[revrandy]

bump for randy

Rewrite to where it makes more sense... There seems to be some grammatical misunderstandings.. Please...

Randy..

[Scott Hutchinson]

By nature ,males and females look different we're born that way ,so that would go into hair as well.
Long tresses of hair look femine ,buzz cuts look manly.

[Thad]

Rewrite to where it makes more sense... There seems to be some grammatical misunderstandings.. Please...

Randy..


LOL!!! from me ??? you've got to be kidding ????? LOL

[HeavenlyOne]

Simple facts, folks.

Jesus did NOT violate any Scripture in trying to win them to Himself. That is the point I'm trying to make. He did not become like them to win them, pure and simple.

No matter who they were, He loved them and called them to follow Him. He did not change Himself or His message to fit with the culture.

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

I believe He became like them to win them in the same sense Paul became like them to win them.

[OGIA]

He didnt sin, but in a sense he did become a sinner in our place-Sorry, I can't agree. God in flesh did not become a sinner. He became sin. I think there is a HUGE difference, maybe you don't. :tiphat

[Elizabeth]

I try to ONLY buys things on sale. I wouldn't brag about NOT buying things on sale. That's called stupidity to me. :hypercoffee

I think she wanted me to know, hey I bought this for full price.--I probably go around the church and tell everyone I get things on "sale" without realizing it--so someone had to set the record straight that they don't!

[HeavenlyOne]

Next you will be trying to tell us that Jesus was not clean shaven!!

Well, if He was Apostolic, it would be obvious, wouldn't it?? :D

[revrandy]

Okay Thad.. I get it.. Pastor's Daughters...

True.... I am not going to judge someone by what they own but it seems to create a "elitist" spirit among the young women and the wives at the church.. when the support of the church is what fuels their lifestyle...

[OGIA]

The Last statement somewhat dimishes your first few... :popcorn2I didn't understand anything you accused me of. :largehalo


Please restate if need be. :coffee2

[Scott Hutchinson]

Pardon me maybe I'm incorrect but isn't there a difference in becoming a offering for sin ,than actually becoming sin ?
When the animals in OT ,were sacrificed ,as sin offerings did those animals actually become sin ?

[Thad]

Okay Thad.. I get it.. Pastor's Daughters...

True.... I am not going to judge someone by what they own but it seems to create a "elitist" spirit among the young women and the wives at the church.. when the support of the church is what fuels their lifestyle...


Exactly

I agree

[HeavenlyOne]

Not sure I understand your point?

Jesus Christ didn't have to adapt to being human. He was/is human. Did you have to adapt to your humanity? I don't think I did.

I didn't exist before becoming human.

Jesus did. He certainly did have to adapt to being human. Since before the beginning of time He'd only been God. Going from being God to being human is a major adjustment, wouldn't you agree?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Speaking of beards ,Peter on the day of Pentecost proably had a beard ,and hair touching his ears and was wearing a tunic and sandals preaching ACTS.2:38 imagine that ?

[HeavenlyOne]

Speaking of beards ,Peter on the day of Pentecost proably had a beard ,and hair touching his ears and was wearing a tunic and sandals preaching ACTS.2:38 imagine that ?

By sandals, do you mean open-toed shoes??? *gasp*

[Elizabeth]

Sorry, I can't agree. God in flesh did not become a sinner. He became sin. I think there is a HUGE difference, maybe you don't. :tiphat

you say "He became sin but not a sinner"--I say: he didn't go around committing sin but on calvary for a moment he was in my place as a sinner. You don't have to agree with me, I will live-

[revrandy]

I didn't exist before becoming human.

Jesus did. He certainly did have to adapt to being human. Since before the beginning of time He'd only been God. Going from being God to being human is a major adjustment, wouldn't you agree?

HO... your view of God here is not correct..

He had dealt with Humanity since the beginning of Creation He KNEW humanity.. No adjustment needed...

[Scott Hutchinson]

open -toed shoes and just think Peter might have had a signet ring on as well ? Wonder how many OP churches would welcome him?
Or John The Baptist he really dressed in clerical attire.

[OGIA]

I didn't exist before becoming human.

Jesus did.Well, technically..................that's another topic.


He certainly did have to adapt to being human. Since before the beginning of time He'd only been God. Going from being God to being human is a major adjustment, wouldn't you agree? If God had to "adapt" to being human, then I don't think that man was 100% human as we proclaim Him to be. The man that was born in Bethlehem was born no differently than you or I, and I don't recall having to adapt to humanity.

I was born human and learned how to exist as a human over time -- from teachings, instinct, learned behavior, etc. I don't place the Lord in any different category than that. If I do, then He wasn't as human as me. Yes, He was God incarnate and remained sinless His entire life, but He was born and raised much like we all are in the context of what we're discussing.

[nathan_slatter]

my neighbor :D

Tell her I said "Hi!" :D

[revrandy]

Concerning his Flesh...

He sweated.. He was tired.. He was weary... He was hungry... He was astonished... He was hurt... He wounded... He Bled... He didn't come in Kingly fashion... but came humbly.. He wasn't a Looker... but comely.... He was meek and not brash... He had a temper.. but was merciful... He was tempted yet he sinned not... He was fully Man and Fully God...

[Scott Hutchinson]

Concerning his Flesh...

He sweated.. He was tired.. He was weary... He was hungry... He was astonished... He was hurt... He wounded... He Bled... He didn't come in Kingly fashion... but came humbly.. He wasn't a Looker... but comely.... He was meek and not brash... He had a temper.. but was merciful... He was tempted yet he sinned not... He was fully Man and Fully God...

And this is a shocker to most ,but asa teenager He went through puberty like everyone else ,He was tempted in all points like as we are.

[Elizabeth]

And this is a shocker to most ,but as teenager He went through puberty like everyone else ,He was tempted in all points like as we are.
LOL!!!

[nathan_slatter]

When fashion controls the church, I have to ask:

Is it really the church?

[Scott Hutchinson]

LOL!!!

And so we can boldly proclaim to Christian teens that they don't have to give into sexual temptation.

[revrandy]

When fashion controls the church, I have to ask:

Is it really the church?

Culterally Yes... Socially Yes... Spiritually No...

[nathan_slatter]

Culterally Yes... Socially Yes... Spiritually No...

And do the first two really matter? :D

[revrandy]

And do the first two really matter? :D

Culterally Yes... Socially Yes... Spiritually No...

[HeavenlyOne]

HO... your view of God here is not correct..

He had dealt with Humanity since the beginning of Creation He KNEW humanity.. No adjustment needed...

While He is God and knows all things, He did have to adapt to being human. This is evident in things Jesus Himself said. He made statements referring to the Father instead of referring to Himself. He spoke about the Father being greater than He was. For someone being God, this had to be a huge adjustment. I'm not saying God struggled with the adjustment, but there was a reason He came as a human and not a jaguar or a tree.

As a human, He had to adapt to human ways and as a Jew, He had to adapt to that culture. As a man, though He was sinless, He had to adapt to the price humanity pays as the result of sin, meaning He had to endure suffering and pain more than just on the cross.

[Elizabeth]

And so we can boldly proclaim to Christian teens that they don't have to give into sexual temptation.
:girlnails Me is glads I aint a teen no more!

[nathan_slatter]

Culterally Yes... Socially Yes... Spiritually No...

:D

[Scott Hutchinson]

:girlnails Me is glads I aint a teen no more!

Yes and thank God for marriage as Saint Paul said it's better to marry than burn.

[HeavenlyOne]

Well, technically..................that's another topic.


If God had to "adapt" to being human, then I don't think that man was 100% human as we proclaim Him to be. The man that was born in Bethlehem was born no differently than you or I, and I don't recall having to adapt to humanity.

I was born human and learned how to exist as a human over time -- from teachings, instinct, learned behavior, etc. I don't place the Lord in any different category than that. If I do, then He wasn't as human as me. Yes, He was God incarnate and remained sinless His entire life, but He was born and raised much like we all are in the context of what we're discussing.

I think you are missing the point. If you can't understand that Jesus was God before becoming human, then I can't help you. Before becoming human, He didn't act human, dress human, or behave like a human, however, He had to do that once becoming human.

We also adapt to our surroundings, even though we are born human. If you were raised by a pack of wild dogs, you wouldn't act human even though you'd look like one. If someone took you out of that environment, you would have to adapt to being human, because even though you are human, you weren't raised as one.

God, before becoming human, never dealt with many things that us humans go through. There certainly was an adaption that took place when He suddenly had to deal with humiliation, rejection, and pain.....things He'd never experienced before.

But again, if you don't understand that, then I don't know what else to say.

[revrandy]

While He is God and knows all things, He did have to adapt to being human. This is evident in things Jesus Himself said. He made statements referring to the Father instead of referring to Himself. He spoke about the Father being greater than He was. For someone being God, this had to be a huge adjustment. I'm not saying God struggled with the adjustment, but there was a reason He came as a human and not a jaguar or a tree.

As a human, He had to adapt to human ways and as a Jew, He had to adapt to that culture. As a man, though He was sinless, He had to adapt to the price humanity pays as the result of sin, meaning He had to endure suffering and pain more than just on the cross.

Ho...we just won't agree on this... to believe this.. you are bringing God who is infinite in wisdom down to our level.. and his foolishnes is above our wisdom.. But I beleive I know where your coming from on this..

Sometimes we like to think of God as we think of ourselves (not in a bad way) and we equate him with us.... according to our humanity.. and what we think...
and with God that's just not the case...

The Jews weren't looking for a stinky stable baby...but a King to come out of the heavens ..then they would reign with him....

But a stable... No Way...

[HeavenlyOne]

Ho...we just won't agree on this... to believe this.. you are bringing God who is infinite in wisdom down to our level.. and his foolishnes is above our wisdom.. But I beleive I know where your coming from on this..

Sometimes we like to think of God as we think of ourselves (not in a bad way) and we equate him with us.... according to our humanity.. and what we think...
and with God that's just not the case...

The Jews weren't looking for a stinky stable baby...but a King to come out of the heavens ..then they would reign with him....

But a stable... No Way...

I agree, and I think we agree on more than you realize.

However, what they were expecting was beyond what God was able to do in order to be a sacrifice for us. He couldn't have suffered if He came as they expected. He wouldn't have been able to put our sins onto Himself and bear them on the cross has He come down as they expected.

I believe it would have been easier for Him to do that, however. Jesus, being human, didn't want to die and suffer. He even prayed to God that 'if it be Your will, let this cup pass from me'.

Being human wasn't easy, and the humanity He endured wasn't something desirable. I'm glad he adapted to His situation and stuck it out for me.

[Scott Hutchinson]

HO check your Pm I owe you an apology.

[revrandy]

I agree, and I think we agree on more than you realize.

However, what they were expecting was beyond what God was able to do in order to be a sacrifice for us. He couldn't have suffered if He came as they expected. He wouldn't have been able to put our sins onto Himself and bear them on the cross has He come down as they expected.

I believe it would have been easier for Him to do that, however. Jesus, being human, didn't want to die and suffer. He even prayed to God that 'if it be Your will, let this cup pass from me'.

Being human wasn't easy, and the humanity He endured wasn't something desirable. I'm glad he adapted to His situation and stuck it out for me.

HO... I like ya'...but never put God in a box.. of what he could do or can do...

I just agree to disagree with ya here... :popcorn2

[Pastor Keith]

Here is one for you,

Slavery is wrong, immoral, and yet Paul because of the culture of that day, slavery was rampant and to overthrow it or advocate such action would cause major societial/economic upheavel.

Yet Paul in writing to believing slaves told them to be faithful to their masters, he even wrote believing masters and told them to treat their slaves as brothers in the Lord, the whole book of Philemon deals with this subject matter.

Of course he knew that eventually the heart converted would cause slavery to diminish yet he contextualized a sticky issue so that the Gospel could move forward. This I think was a application of becoming all things to all men.


bump

[HeavenlyOne]

HO check your Pm I owe you an apology.

I gotcha bro. Not a problem at all.

[nathan_slatter]

I agree, and I think we agree on more than you realize.

However, what they were expecting was beyond what God was able to do in order to be a sacrifice for us. He couldn't have suffered if He came as they expected. He wouldn't have been able to put our sins onto Himself and bear them on the cross has He come down as they expected.

I would say that what they were expecting was beyond what God was willing to do.

This does bring a question to mind: Do our own thoughts, ideas, theology, etc... bind God's will? Do we expect God to show up in a certain way until, when he does show up, we miss it because he doesn't look, act, and interact in a manner that we believe he should?

Is it possible that we are repeating history in our own lives because we have built up a god that we believe God is, instead of letting God be God -- outside our perceptions, culture, and society? And before anyone starts really shouting, this INCLUDES subculture of church and denominations (or ministerial fellowships). This problem is prevelant with ALL people -- not just the blind sinners.

[HeavenlyOne]

HO... I like ya'...but never put God in a box.. of what he could do or can do...

I just agree to disagree with ya here... :popcorn2

I thought by saying what I was saying that I wasn't putting Him in a box.....LOL!

There was a reason why He came down as a human and not a King they were seeking, even if it seems that He would have been accepted by coming as the latter. By expecting Him to come down as a king was there was of putting Him in a box. It didn't work, thus the reason for my response to their expectation.

Sorry if I confused ya.....LOL!

[HeavenlyOne]

I would say that what they were expecting was beyond what God was willing to do.

This does bring a question to mind: Do our own thoughts, ideas, theology, etc... bind God's will? Do we expect God to show up in a certain way until, when he does show up, we miss it because he doesn't look, act, and interact in a manner that we believe he should?

Is it possible that we are repeating history in our own lives because we have built up a god that we believe God is, instead of letting God be God -- outside our perceptions, culture, and society? And before anyone starts really shouting, this INCLUDES subculture of church and denominations (or ministerial fellowships). This problem is prevelant with ALL people -- not just the blind sinners.


That's a more accurate way of putting what I wanted to say.

Good post.

[Scott Hutchinson]

You see the Jewish concept of a messiah is that the messiah is not divine ,but he will be a man who will restore them back to a golden age and a 1,ooo rule or reign upon the earth.
Jesus Christ said His Kingdom was not of this world , they were looking for someone to overthrow Imperial Rome.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm say this God won't do anything that is not Biblical ,however very often He can and will move outside of our Religious traditions.

[nathan_slatter]

I'm say this God won't do anything that is not Biblical ,however very often He can and will move outside of our Religious traditions.

*grin* sometimes that which is biblical is actually formed by our religious traditions. :D

[HeavenlyOne]

*grin* sometimes that which is biblical is actually formed by our religious traditions. :D


Ouch!

[Scott Hutchinson]

*grin* sometimes that which is biblical is actually formed by our religious traditions. :D

That depends on if you mean Biblical according to a denominal interpretation or Biblical according to the Bible.

[nathan_slatter]

That depends on if you mean Biblical according to a denominal interpretation or Biblical according to the Bible.

*grin*

I would have said it like this: It depends on if you mean Biblical according to interpretation (denominational, societal, cultural, subcultural, etc...) or Biblical according to the Bible.

And that will ALWAYS be a question... :D

[Newman]

Newman you have legitimate points, but the mission of the church is not us, it is to be outward focused.

The house of God is special? Newman the house of God is you, not a building, the days of the temple and the specialness of sacred building are long gone, would to God people act and be as spiritual all week long as they do those 3 hours on Sunday.

The House of God is special indeed. It is where God's people gather. "...that though mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:12).

It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I read an article by a black jounalist in a major metro paper some time last fall. I could kick myself a dozen times for not responding. He wrote that he no longer attended the church of his youth because it wasn't relevant to today's generation.

He spoke of running the aisles and talking in tongues but said the church culture had set herself apart from the real people dying in the streets. He spoke of the women wearing fancy hats while life in the ghetto went on.

O foolish man that he was. He complained of the very church culture that had spared him a life of drug addiction; where statistically he was more likely to end up incarcerated than college educated; the father of half a dozen illegitimate kids instead of the dad to the two children being raised by he and his wife in his home.

I understand the need to reach out. But some traditions (such as dressing up on Sunday) might contribute to our well being in ways we haven't quite grasped. :coffee2

[Fireside]

The House of God is special indeed. It is where God's people gather. "...that though mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:12).

It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I read an article by a black jounalist in a major metro paper some time last fall. I could kick myself a dozen times for not responding. He wrote that he no longer attended the church of his youth because it wasn't relevant to today's generation.

He spoke of running the aisles and talking in tongues but said the church culture had set herself apart from the real people dying in the streets. He spoke of the women wearing fancy hats while life in the ghetto went on.

O foolish man that he was. He complained of the very church culture that had spared him a life of drug addiction; where statistically he was more likely to end up incarcerated than college educated; the father of half a dozen illegitimate kids instead of the dad to the two children being raised by he and his wife in his home.

I understand the need to reach out. But some traditions (such as dressing up on Sunday) might contribute to our well being in ways we haven't quite grasped. :coffee2

Newman is always worth reading; sometimes she is even right. ;)

This is one of those times.

[nathan_slatter]

The House of God is special indeed. It is where God's people gather. "...that though mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:12).

It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I read an article by a black jounalist in a major metro paper some time last fall. I could kick myself a dozen times for not responding. He wrote that he no longer attended the church of his youth because it wasn't relevant to today's generation.

He spoke of running the aisles and talking in tongues but said the church culture had set herself apart from the real people dying in the streets. He spoke of the women wearing fancy hats while life in the ghetto went on.

O foolish man that he was. He complained of the very church culture that had spared him a life of drug addiction; where statistically he was more likely to end up incarcerated than college educated; the father of half a dozen illegitimate kids instead of the dad to the two children being raised by he and his wife in his home.

I understand the need to reach out. But some traditions (such as dressing up on Sunday) might contribute to our well being in ways we haven't quite grasped. :coffee2

I don't know -- some religious traditions could also contribute to unbelief, angst, anger, and a general falling away. I can name several people now who refuse to go to any church except the one they were raised in -- and they are disenfranchised with these that they were raised in, so they go no where and have no relationship with God. They cannot see that God is much bigger than a building, denomination, or religious ideology. They can not see God outside the denomination of the church of their upbringing.

Traditions are neither bad nor good -- they are tools that can be used to edify or destroy. Sometimes it is best to shed those tradition remembering that shedding those traditions will make way for new ones that can also be used to edify or destroy.

[Thad]

The House of God is special indeed. It is where God's people gather. "...that though mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:12).

It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I read an article by a black jounalist in a major metro paper some time last fall. I could kick myself a dozen times for not responding. He wrote that he no longer attended the church of his youth because it wasn't relevant to today's generation.

He spoke of running the aisles and talking in tongues but said the church culture had set herself apart from the real people dying in the streets. He spoke of the women wearing fancy hats while life in the ghetto went on.

O foolish man that he was. He complained of the very church culture that had spared him a life of drug addiction; where statistically he was more likely to end up incarcerated than college educated; the father of half a dozen illegitimate kids instead of the dad to the two children being raised by he and his wife in his home.

I understand the need to reach out. But some traditions (such as dressing up on Sunday) might contribute to our well being in ways we haven't quite grasped. :coffee2


that was Brilliant! I could not agree more!
God created us with a need for community. it's like a well where we draw strenght from. There is a new statistic out that states nationally, only 18.9 percent of americans are now attending church on sunday. It's a little higher in the south and somewhat lower in the northeast. Anyway, the point I want to drive home is, as a nation,we are suffering and will continue to pay a huge price in the coming years for this decline in church attendance.
I understand that most churches don't preach acts238, but at least they preached basic morals and principles. It breaks my heart to see America turning their backs on the church, the greatest institution that ever was or will be.

[Pastor Keith]

The House of God is special indeed. It is where God's people gather. "...that though mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:12).

It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I read an article by a black jounalist in a major metro paper some time last fall. I could kick myself a dozen times for not responding. He wrote that he no longer attended the church of his youth because it wasn't relevant to today's generation.

He spoke of running the aisles and talking in tongues but said the church culture had set herself apart from the real people dying in the streets. He spoke of the women wearing fancy hats while life in the ghetto went on.

O foolish man that he was. He complained of the very church culture that had spared him a life of drug addiction; where statistically he was more likely to end up incarcerated than college educated; the father of half a dozen illegitimate kids instead of the dad to the two children being raised by he and his wife in his home.

I understand the need to reach out. But some traditions (such as dressing up on Sunday) might contribute to our well being in ways we haven't quite grasped. :coffee2

For one as sharp as your interpretation skills are, you missed this one. This is an anaology of the Church,

a spiritual building with us as living stones,

a spiritual body with us as individual members,

a family with God as Father and with brothers and sisters

[Pastor Keith]

The House of God is special indeed. It is where God's people gather. "...that though mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim 3:12).

It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I read an article by a black jounalist in a major metro paper some time last fall. I could kick myself a dozen times for not responding. He wrote that he no longer attended the church of his youth because it wasn't relevant to today's generation.

He spoke of running the aisles and talking in tongues but said the church culture had set herself apart from the real people dying in the streets. He spoke of the women wearing fancy hats while life in the ghetto went on.

O foolish man that he was. He complained of the very church culture that had spared him a life of drug addiction; where statistically he was more likely to end up incarcerated than college educated; the father of half a dozen illegitimate kids instead of the dad to the two children being raised by he and his wife in his home.

I understand the need to reach out. But some traditions (such as dressing up on Sunday) might contribute to our well being in ways we haven't quite grasped. :coffee2


I am all for traditions as long as they are taught that they are just that, it might be verified that what we do is good, helpful and maybe even the best way to live, but don't associate it with salvation or as something I must embrace to experience the grace of God.

[ILG]

Certainly there is some disconnect in condemning limited jewelry but embracing costly array. But I do believe that both miss the point that Paul was making. It's not about what you wear on the outside that matters most but the inside that counts. And so I enter this discussion believing that both jewelry and costly array may be ok given the right circumstances.

Nevertheless, I have got to admit that I am conflicted by the whole thing. :coffee2

Dressing with Distinction
I do believe that the more "separated" from the fashions of the world; the more likely there will be a totally different culture in the church that occurs naturally as the body of believers creates their own society and ways to be legitimately noticed and recognized as distinctive from the uniform otherwise worn.

Is this all bad? Heavens no. Its refreshing to walk into the House of God and see good and wonderful people who are there to worship in their finest. It is so Norman Rockwell to walk into church as a family with one's Sunday attire that includes Rothchild coats for little girls and suits and ties for boys.

It is easy to bring your children up to live "above" the crowd at school when there is something wonderfully connected going on at church. It is like raising up royalty and isn't that what we are doing?

Toll on Visitors
HOWEVER....it is hard on visitors. And makes the visiting children stick out like sore thumbs. For some it works and when they come to Christ they can't wait to put on new clothes that signal they are part of that particular church body.

But for others; there is a discomfort that they can't get past. They won't be caught dead in a suit; even for their funeral.

And so we weigh traditional church clothes that promote a most wonderful feeling for those that wear them against the backdrop of welcoming others to place where they too can worship God without being embarrased by what they have to come to church in. There are no easy answers....

Message to Our Children
But I do believe we should cut the Conservatives slack who choose to worship God in their finest. It certainly sends a message to their children that isn't all bad.

The House of God is special as you are. No need to adapt to the lack of morality and lack of reverence of this world. Amen? :cool:

I definately share this conflict, Newman. Raising up children does have to be very important as does winning souls. Sometimes the two do seem to clash.

[ILG]

I understand the need to reach out. But some traditions (such as dressing up on Sunday) might contribute to our well being in ways we haven't quite grasped. :coffee2

I think there is a difference between dressing up and "dressing to the nines".

[Newman]

For one as sharp as your interpretation skills are, you missed this one. This is an anaology of the Church,

a spiritual building with us as living stones,

a spiritual body with us as individual members,

a family with God as Father and with brothers and sisters

I tried to say as much (though somewhat sloppy)... It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I absolutely agree that tradition should not be taught as salvation. I only point out that there may be some merit in some practices that promote reverance for God and his people. :cool:

[Pastor Keith]

I tried to say as much (though somewhat sloppy)... It isn't about 3 hours on Sunday but about our attitude towards others that are of the household of faith.

I absolutely agree that tradition should not be taught as salvation. I only point out that there may be some merit in some practices that promote reverance for God and his people. :cool:

You should read the article by the esteemed Ed Stetzer, on this tension. I am all for dressing up, matter of fact if it was up to me I would do all the time, but I am a fisherman and I have to bait my hook with what draws the fish.

[Sister Alvear]

I have been busy all day and this post has received seemly a record number posts that I do not have time to read them at the moment. However the subject caught my eye this morning before I went out. I feel many of our "issues" are very complex. We (myself included) preach against the wearing of silver and gold YET (not I) try to impress people by our brand names, styles etc. There is no use telling ourselves we got a discount because that is not the real reason. I have been with enough leaders and heard their remarks on their brand names shoes and purses. Most would carry whatever and wear whatever as long as it fit the "holiness" style. One pastor's wife told me she carried her purse so people could see the brand... I have heard the excuse ‘”got it at the goodwill”. That still is not the REAL reason we bought our brand name things. We want to be like our peers. We are creatures driven by desire and we may as well admit it. We want to look like those in “our camp”.
Inside the human heart whether we wear long sleeves or not is vanity if we are not careful. The heart is extremely deceitful and who can know it? That is why many people are so unstable. They dress like those they fellowship. Change fellowship and dress styles many times change. We are a product of those we run with.
We condemn the dime ring and wear thousand dollar suits to impress. They usually don't wear as good as some cheaper suit. We wear cotton shirts because they are in style and not because they are easier to take care of. If wrinkled clothes are in style that is what everyone wants.

I stood on purpose not to condemn but because someone said to me just stand and watch how many racks of shoes, purses, dresses people bring for a 3 day conference...So I did so in the freezing wind...and wept...no wonder we see so many pastors wife's in the shape they are in. Focus is placed so much on how we look and what image we are to portray.
I think we should be nice, clean and neat but many are motivated by styles of clothes right in our mist. If you don’t believe it just visit any convention.

Reverance must come from deep within the heart. Sloppy dress does not promote reverance but neither do 1000 dollar suits. I have been with both groups.

We must feel an holy awe when we walk into His Presence.

God is concerned how we dress we worship Him in the beauty of holiness. So our inner spirit and our outward body much match.

maybe more later...

[CC1]

Newman,

Here is my church dress guidelines. I hope it meets your approval!!

1. Winter Sunday's - Almost always suit or sport jacket & dress slacks.
2. Spring, Summer, & Fall Sundays - dress shirt and dress slacks or preppy
casual.
3. NFL Football Season Sunday's Going To See The Titans Straight From Church- Khaki pants or blue jeans and polo shirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Titans!!!!!!!!

[Thad]

Newman,

Here is my church dress guidelines. I hope it meets your approval!!

1. Winter Sunday's - Almost always suit or sport jacket & dress slacks.
2. Spring, Summer, & Fall Sundays - dress shirt and dress slacks or preppy
casual.
3. NFL Football Season Sunday's Going To See The Titans Straight From Church- Khaki pants or blue jeans and polo shirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Titans!!!!!!!!


WHERE IS THE NECK TIE ????

[CupCake]

I don't think my opinion would be popular...

Nor mine~:hypercoffee

[CC1]

WHERE IS THE NECK TIE ????

I wear that ADORNMENT 100% of the time with the suits and 90% of the time with the Sport Jackets.

In the spring, summer, and fall I wear a tie maybe 50% of the time.

As I mentioned before the great thing about my church is no one pays any attention to how I am dressed.

[Thad]

I wear that ADORNMENT 100% of the time with the suits and 90% of the time with the Sport Jackets.

In the spring, summer, and fall I wear a tie maybe 50% of the time.

As I mentioned before the great thing about my church is no one pays any attention to how I am dressed.



That's a Good Boy ! :thumbsup


and it is not ADORNMENT- where did you get that from ?

[CC1]

That's a Good Boy ! :thumbsup


and it is not ADORNMENT- where did you get that from ?


Would you please explain to me how a tie is NOT adornment? It serves absolutely no practical purpose. It is strictly for decoration.

[Newman]

Reverance must come from deep within the heart. Sloppy dress does not promote reverance but neither do 1000 dollar suits. I have been with both groups.

We must feel an holy awe when we walk into His Presence.

God is concerned how we dress we worship Him in the beauty of holiness. So our inner spirit and our outward body much match.



True... :cool:

[commonsense]

[QUOTE=Sister Alvear;86414]I have been busy all day and this post has received seemly a record number posts that I do not have time to read them at the moment. However the subject caught my eye this morning before I went out. I feel many of our "issues" are very complex. We (myself included) preach against the wearing of silver and gold YET (not I) try to impress people by our brand names, styles etc. There is no use telling ourselves we got a discount because that is not the real reason. I have been with enough leaders and heard their remarks on their brand names shoes and purses. Most would carry whatever and wear whatever as long as it fit the "holiness" style. One pastor's wife told me she carried her purse so people could see the brand... I have heard the excuse ‘”got it at the goodwill”. That still is not the REAL reason we bought our brand name things. We want to be like our peers. We are creatures driven by desire and we may as well admit it. We want to look like those in “our camp”.
Inside the human heart whether we wear long sleeves or not is vanity if we are not careful. The heart is extremely deceitful and who can know it? That is why many people are so unstable. They dress like those they fellowship. Change fellowship and dress styles many times change. We are a product of those we run with.
We condemn the dime ring and wear thousand dollar suits to impress. They usually don't wear as good as some cheaper suit. We wear cotton shirts because they are in style and not because they are easier to take care of. If wrinkled clothes are in style that is what everyone wants.

I stood on purpose not to condemn but because someone said to me just stand and watch how many racks of shoes, purses, dresses people bring for a 3 day conference...So I did so in the freezing wind...and wept...no wonder we see so many pastors wife's in the shape they are in. Focus is placed so much on how we look and what image we are to portray.
I think we should be nice, clean and neat but many are motivated by styles of clothes right in our mist. If you don’t believe it just visit any convention.

Reverance must come from deep within the heart. Sloppy dress does not promote reverance but neither do 1000 dollar suits. I have been with both groups.

We must feel an holy awe when we walk into His Presence.

God is concerned how we dress we worship Him in the beauty of holiness. So our inner spirit and our outward body much match.

maybe more later...[/QUOTE


Good points made here; a convicting spirit even;
We are epistles read of all men..........what do they see? Many will not see Jesus except as WE represent Him.

[Thad]

Would you please explain to me how a tie is NOT adornment? It serves absolutely no practical purpose. It is strictly for decoration.


the bible says whose adorning let not be that of jewelry and costly array.
some ties probably cost too much and yes, I will agree that some pentecostals seem to ignore the admonishing against COSTLY ARRAY while condemning the other.
as far as the Neck tie, it's clothe and in our culture it represents a conservative Appearnace even by the standards of polite society

[OGIA]

I think you are missing the point.Don't we all think that of the other? :winkgrin


**The rest was a waste of 10 minutes of typing that I finally decided would lead nowhere. :blah

[CC1]

the bible says whose adorning let not be that of jewelry and costly array.
some ties probably cost too much and yes, I will agree that some pentecostals seem to ignore the admonishing against COSTLY ARRAY while condemning the other.
as far as the Neck tie, it's clothe and in our culture it represents a conservative Appearnace even by the standards of polite society

If that scripture was a prohibition against jewelry and costly array then how come the other place this is mentioned in the Epistles doesn't have the word "costly" in front of apparel? It simply says apparel. It is quite clear the scripture is simply saying that what is most important in a person is not what they are dressed with but their inner character, christian values, etc.

Another instance of a gross misunderstanding of scripture, especially as the construction of the verbage of that day dealt with contrasts in a way we don't today.

I suppose you also think Jesus wants us to hate our mothers, brothers, etc?

[Newman]

You should read the article by the esteemed Ed Stetzer, on this tension. I am all for dressing up, matter of fact if it was up to me I would do all the time, but I am a fisherman and I have to bait my hook with what draws the fish.

Ah... but which fish? :coffee2

[Pastor Keith]

Well I have taken this as far as I am able, good thoughts and discussion from all, rather civil, which is nice for a change.

[RevDWW]

When fashion controls a church, repentance is in order from the sin of Idolatry. A church is in deep trouble when it's not controled by Jesus.

Nothing wrong with dressing in your best. Just don't let it control you.

[CC1]

Well I have taken this as far as I am able, good thoughts and discussion from all, rather civil, which is nice for a change.

Shutup you stupid moron!!!! How dare you state your opinion!!!:hypercoffee

[Newman]

Well I have taken this as far as I am able, good thoughts and discussion from all, rather civil, which is nice for a change.

keith4him- I pray that God continues to bless your fishing venture. :clap

[Whole Hearted]

Randy,

I know exactly where you are coming from. we are from the same area. there are more than one daughter in our area that out dress everyone in their churches. we know where they go to shop in the city right? don't think some of their people don't notice and don't talk about the lifelstyles, the country clubs, the cars, neiman marcus,etc BUT they are conservative?? I'm not getting it. can someone fill in the blanks?
The picture that the world is seeing sums up with one word" INCONSISTANT!

I will agree, this is inconsistent. It is one thing to dress nice and another to spent lots of money on clothes cars. and lifestyle. I believe that we will be judged for such thing. I would not feel right in expensive suits and ties. I know guys ( they are libs. and cons.) that spent $50 to $80 for neck ties. I believe this is costly array. I could never do this. I also won't go to expensive restaurants and spend alot of money, just don't feel right about it.

[Newman]

I will agree, this is inconsistent. It is one thing to dress nice and another to spent lots of money on clothes cars. and lifestyle. I believe that we will be judged for such thing. I would not feel right in expensive suits and ties. I know guys ( they are libs. and cons.) that spent $50 to $80 for neck ties. I believe this is costly array. I could never do this. I also won't go to expensive restaurants and spend alot of money, just don't feel right about it.

With all due respect; how can one say for sure what they would do if they never earned the kind of money that allows such an expenditure without blinking?

Costly array is in the eye of the beholder. Let us not forget that even as the woman of Proverbs reached out her hand to the poor; her own clothing was silk and purple. :cool:

[Whole Hearted]

With all due respect; how can one say for sure what they would do if they never earned the kind of money that allows such an expenditure without blinking?

Costly array is in the eye of the beholder. Let us not forget that even as the woman of Proverbs reached out her hand to the poor; her own clothing was silk and purple. :cool:

Excuse me. I could wear expensive suits and ties if I wished. I could buy expensive clothes for my wife and kids if I wished, but I don't believe it is right.

Also I don't think that a pastor and his family should dress way above what the people can dress.

[Pressing-On]

With all due respect; how can one say for sure what they would do if they never earned the kind of money that allows such an expenditure without blinking?

Costly array is in the eye of the beholder. Let us not forget that even as the woman of Proverbs reached out her hand to the poor; her own clothing was silk and purple. :cool:

This is very true, Newman. There are people who have been brought up in a Cadillac home, so to speak. Why make them shop at Salvation Army?

[Old Paths]

Is it "costly array" if it was a gift?

[CC1]

This is very true, Newman. There are people who have been brought up in a Cadillac home, so to speak. Why make them shop at Salvation Army?

If you are enough of a bargain hunter many times you can have nice things spending no more money that other people do.

I bought my wife a Lincoln Town Car but I bought a one year old "program" car for the same amount of money I would have spent on a new Honda Accord EX 6cyl.

[ILG]

Nice dressing: Dressing nicely for the occasion. Modest. Tasteful. Not trying to outdo anyone with clothing. Modestly priced. Quality.

Dressing to the Nines: Overdressing for every occasion. Splashy. Showy. Expensive. Trying to outdo your neighbor. Worrying about if someone else is outdoing you.

[Newman]

Excuse me. I could wear expensive suits and ties if I wished. I could buy expensive clothes for my wife and kids if I wished, but I don't believe it is right.

Also I don't think that a pastor and his family should dress way above what the people can dress.

1. But can you do it without blinking?

2. I agree that the ministry loses its effectiveness if they are seen too different than the congregation as a whole. :coffee2

[Old Paths]

If you are enough of a bargain hunter many times you can have nice things spending no more money that other people do.

I bought my wife a Lincoln Town Car but I bought a one year old "program" car for the same amount of money I would have spent on a new Honda Accord EX 6cyl.

CC1

I agree.

I just got a 2006 Grand Marquis LS "Program" for $15,000.00.

That's about half of a new one.

[Newman]

Nice dressing: Dressing nicely for the occasion. Modest. Tasteful. Not trying to outdo anyone with clothing. Modestly priced. Quality.

Dressing to the Nines: Overdressing for every occasion. Splashy. Showy. Expensive. Trying to outdo your neighbor. Worrying about if someone else is outdoing you.

I will mostly agree with that. However, I would try not to judge but rather enjoy someone who puts alot of effort into looking good. God isn't finished with anyone yet. :donuts

Hehehe You would think by reading my posts that I am very much one of those that I am defending. Not true at all. I just recognize that all are different and thank God for it. Life might be pretty boring otherwise. ;)

[revrandy]

The whole point of this thread was that dress whether affordable or not had pushed the church to a "Gotta Keep up With the Jones" spirit... and it is quite noticable by others...

Whether the church is visited or is a guest somewhere else..


Dress Smesh.... it's what spirit is displayed..

I've know millionaires who were the most humble folk you ever met...

I've known hundred thousand aires who were jerks!!

[Pressing-On]

If you are enough of a bargain hunter many times you can have nice things spending no more money that other people do.

I bought my wife a Lincoln Town Car but I bought a one year old "program" car for the same amount of money I would have spent on a new Honda Accord EX 6cyl.

True in some cases, CC1. Most women know that clothing is going to last and fit better when it isn't from Walmart. You'll get your ideal size in a better fitting brand of clothing and if I'm going to buy a versatile jacket or suit I certainly want quality.

It's the same with furniture. If I'm going to replace my living room furniture, I'm not going to buy cheap. I want it to last. Some things are made better and, IMO, it's a much wiser investment to buy quality.