I've Been Praying Alot Lately

[Michlow]

So, these past few weeks I've been more stressed out and anxious then I've been in a long time, so in my quest for some sort of peace and tranquility, I've actually found myself praying a bit more than usual.

Most of my nervousness involves the fact that I started dating a month or so ago. So my prayers have traveled the spectrum of first date jitters (Lord PLEASE let me have a good hair day and not spill food on myself!), to Jesus as therapist (Am I afraid of letting someone too close and being vulnerable, or am I just not that into him?) to Jesus as Valium (Lord, I need to calm down! I am way too old to be infatuated! Only school girls should be giddy! :bliss)

I confess, I don't know where I really stand on the subject of prayer, or whether God truly answers. But I guess I thought it current hurt.

But I do admit that on some level I am highly amused by the irony that all the dates that I have asked Jesus to facilitate have been with an atheist. :toofunny

[Dedicated Mind]

Not sure about praying to God to hook you up with an atheist. I used to be a big believer in prayer. I don't practice it much anymore besides asking God for forgiveness. Are there any churches near where you live to meet eligible bachelors? I think church is the best place to find a mate whether you are a believer or not.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Glad you're praying, no matter the reason. :)

[Timmy]

Not sure about praying to God to hook you up with an atheist. I used to be a big believer in prayer. I don't practice it much anymore besides asking God for forgiveness. Are there any churches near where you live to meet eligible bachelors? I think church is the best place to find a mate whether you are a believer or not.

Don't worry. God won't grant her request if it's not "according to His will". :lol

[Michlow]

Not sure about praying to God to hook you up with an atheist. I used to be a big believer in prayer. I don't practice it much anymore besides asking God for forgiveness. Are there any churches near where you live to meet eligible bachelors? I think church is the best place to find a mate whether you are a believer or not.


The problem with going to church to meet men, is that any men you meet would be churchgoers ;)

Glad you're praying, no matter the reason. :) LOL!

Actually someone told me yesterday that I was a blessing to her, in fact a double blessing, and that God brought me into her life. I laughed and said that God probably brought her into my life, to counteract the Atheist. :toofunny

[Timmy]

The problem with going to church to meet men, is that any men you meet would be churchgoers ;)

LOL!
. . .

:spit :ursofunny

[Sister Alvear]

praying for you, my friend.

[Dedicated Mind]

The problem with going to church to meet men, is that any men you meet would be churchgoers ;)



Do you think an atheist can be a moral and faithful person? What incentive does an atheist have to be faithful? At least a believer would be in danger of hellfire if he is unfaithful.

[Michlow]

Do you think an atheist can be a moral and faithful person? What incentive does an atheist have to be faithful? At least a believer would be in danger of hellfire if he is unfaithful.

To believe that atheists can't be good people, is to believe that Christians can't be bad people.

I am a living example that getting people to live a Christian life, simply out of fear of eternal torment in hell, DOES NOT WORK.

Besides which, I can honestly say that I don't think I would really want to be in a relationship with a guy who is only faithful to me because he's afraid of going to hell. Is that the only reason you are faithful to your wife??

[Dedicated Mind]

To believe that atheists can't be good people, is to believe that Christians can't be bad people.

I am a living example that getting people to live a Christian life, simply out of fear of eternal torment in hell, DOES NOT WORK.

Besides which, I can honestly say that I don't think I would really want to be in a relationship with a guy who is only faithful to me because he's afraid of going to hell. Is that the only reason you are faithful to your wife??

I've been divorced for 12 years and yes christians can be bad, but I don't think love and attraction are enough to keep a man or woman faithful nowadays. Unless the couple are mature, up in years and looking to settle down. I think a christian world view is helpful in a relationship.

[Michlow]

I've been divorced for 12 years and yes christians can be bad, but I don't think love and attraction are enough to keep a man or woman faithful nowadays. Unless the couple are mature, up in years and looking to settle down. I think a christian world view is helpful in a relationship.

I guess I have to disagree. There is a such thing as personal ethics. People are constantly telling me that I had it wrong, that I followed the rules for the wrong reasons, that instead of doing it out of fear, I should have been doing it out of love. And yet you are advocating fear of consequences as the only control over one's behavior.

[Timmy]

The nice thing about Christians is, no matter what they have done or will do, God will forgive them! Fear of hell? Not even a factor! :thumbsup

[Michlow]

The nice thing about Christians is, no matter what they have done or will do, God will forgive them! Fear of hell? Not even a factor! :thumbsup

Excellent point!

[Dedicated Mind]

I guess I have to disagree. There is a such thing as personal ethics. People are constantly telling me that I had it wrong, that I followed the rules for the wrong reasons, that instead of doing it out of fear, I should have been doing it out of love. And yet you are advocating fear of consequences as the only control over one's behavior.

I don't think it's an either/or situation. A person's relationship with God and with a mate can contain both love and fear. The bible says, "the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God". Christ taught us to fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. I don't think fear should be the only reason to stay in a relationship, but I think both love and fear are healthy. A few curves won't hurt.

[Timmy]

I don't think it's an either/or situation. A person's relationship with God and with a mate can contain both love and fear. The bible says, "the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God". Christ taught us to fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. I don't think fear should be the only reason to stay in a relationship, but I think both love and fear are healthy. A few curves won't hurt.

Fear can be an important and healthy feature of the human psyche if and when it is needed! It can trigger the fight-or-flight response, for example. It is part of our self-preservation instinct. And if a relationship breaks down to the point that fear needs to kick in and do its job, such as when one party becomes abusive or threatens the other's well-being and safety, that relationship is not healthy.

IMO. ;)

[Dedicated Mind]

Fear can be an important and healthy feature of the human psyche if and when it is needed! It can trigger the fight-or-flight response, for example. It is part of our self-preservation instinct. And if a relationship breaks down to the point that fear needs to kick in and do its job, such as when one party becomes abusive or threatens the other's well-being and safety, that relationship is not healthy.

IMO. ;)

I was referring to a fear of God and of a biblical worldview where men are commanded to love their wives etc. A "biblical" relationship with fear of God and love for their spouse is a healthy one imo. I was not referring to fear of a spouse in an abusive relationship.

[Timmy]

I was referring to a fear of God and of a biblical worldview where men are commanded to love their wives etc. A "biblical" relationship with fear of God and love for their spouse is a healthy one imo. I was not referring to fear of a spouse in an abusive relationship.

Ah. OK.

[OneAccord]

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

[Michlow]

I don't think it's an either/or situation. A person's relationship with God and with a mate can contain both love and fear. The bible says, "the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God". Christ taught us to fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. I don't think fear should be the only reason to stay in a relationship, but I think both love and fear are healthy. A few curves won't hurt.

I was referring to a fear of God and of a biblical worldview where men are commanded to love their wives etc. A "biblical" relationship with fear of God and love for their spouse is a healthy one imo. I was not referring to fear of a spouse in an abusive relationship.

But again, why would anyone woman want to be with a man who only loves her because God demands it? Or a man who is only faithful because of fear of consequences?

I think all women want to be loved for themselves.

[Timmy]

But again, why would anyone woman want to be with a man who only loves her because God demands it? Or a man who is only faithful because of fear of consequences?

I think all women want to be loved for themselves.

Well, God commands us to love Him, too. Just sayin'.

[Michlow]

Well, God commands us to love Him, too. Just sayin'.

You're right, I do seem to recall that somewhere on the never ending list of requirements :hmmm

[SteppingStone]

Pray for God to send you the comforter:

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

David used to always ask God not to take away His Holy Spirit from him, and this is the guy who wrote the Book of Psalms, a man of great courage who defeated Goliath..

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

[Dedicated Mind]

But again, why would anyone woman want to be with a man who only loves her because God demands it? Or a man who is only faithful because of fear of consequences?

I think all women want to be loved for themselves.

I agree with you that true love is what most men and women want, I just think you have a better chance of finding true love with a God-fearing person. With an atheist there are no external moral boundaries in the relationship, only personal ethics. Knowing human nature, an external influence like faith can keep a relationship intact during low periods, which all relationships go through. Just my advice. Let us know if you find true love.

[Michlow]

Might have been nice to actually have a perfect man as your date!

I disagree! Hanging around perfect people can be really frustrating for flawed people like me!

Me too Michlow! ;)

But, you have to admit it would be different - - - he'd show up on time, be polite, pay for the meal, respect you, be kind, and just think of all the things you'd have to talk about!

Pulled this from the "Would you Date Jesus" Thread.

I just needed to point out that my Atheist did all of those things! (But I won't be telling him he's perfect anytime soon! :toofunny )

[Dedicated Mind]

michlow, I have some questions for you. Have you been baptised in Jesus name? Have you received the baptism of the holy spirit speaking in tongues? You said you were apostolic, I was wondering to what extent was your experience in the church.

Timmy, I was wondering the same about you. Can you answer the above questions?

[Michlow]

michlow, I have some questions for you. Have you been baptised in Jesus name? Have you received the baptism of the holy spirit speaking in tongues? You said you were apostolic, I was wondering to what extent was your experience in the church.

Timmy, I was wondering the same about you. Can you answer the above questions?

Let's see. I attended a UPC church for a few months when I was 18, and was baptized. I went back about 6 years later, and finished the rest of the steps (I was later baptized a second time as well). I attend 3 different apostolic churches in 2 different states over the next 8 years. During the first half of that, I was quite conservative, I followed all the standards, didn't watch TV or movies. At one time I even believed in holy magic hair!

I'm a bookworm. So when I decided to become apostolic, I read all the literature I could get my hands on by apostolic writers, listened to thousands of sermons live and on tape, and read the bible through hundreds of times. I tithed, I taught Bible Studies, and I thought anyone who didn't follow the 3-steps was hellbound.

So I think you can safely say that I was pretty apostolic. If FCF & NFCF were still around you would be able to find posts where I argued FOR The things I now argue against. (Though I admit that I'm glad those things are gone, as I wouldn't want to read it!)

I admittedly had very bad experiences in a spiritually abusive church under a very controlling Pastor, which had a big impact on my spiritual outlook.

I came to the conclusion that standards were not salvational several years before I left. In fact, I continued to keep attending an apostolic church until God told me to leave. (I accept that 90% of the people reading this, would never believe that it was God).

Oh, as for speaking in tongues, I spoke in tongues after I received the Holy Ghost (several months after...but that's for a different conversation). And I in fact still do occasionally speak in tongues.

[Dedicated Mind]

wow, michlow. I didn't know you were so involved. I don't understand how you can be agnostic after being baptized and speaking in tongues. Did you feel anything spiritual when you were baptized? How can you doubt God after speaking in tongues? Wasn't it involuntary tongues by the spirit or was it repeated gibberish?

[Timmy]

michlow, I have some questions for you. Have you been baptised in Jesus name? Have you received the baptism of the holy spirit speaking in tongues? You said you were apostolic, I was wondering to what extent was your experience in the church.

Timmy, I was wondering the same about you. Can you answer the above questions?

No and yes.

[Michlow]

wow, michlow. I didn't know you were so involved. I don't understand how you can be agnostic after being baptized and speaking in tongues. Did you feel anything spiritual when you were baptized? How can you doubt God after speaking in tongues? Wasn't it involuntary tongues by the spirit or was it repeated gibberish?

Before I can answer this, I need to know what you mean by "doubt God". I don't really doubt that God exists...I just doubt everything else. And doubt isn't a bad thing really, it just means to be undecided or skeptical.

How much of my experience with God, was actually God, and how much of it was the apostolic culture playing on my hyped up emotions? How much of it was pressure? Or the desire to fit in?

There are things, a few experiences, things that I have no other explanation but to believe that God for some reason chose to make himself clear to me. But those experiences are very few and far between. Which means that other than those few experiences, the rest are in question.

[Dedicated Mind]

No and yes.
No, you haven't been baptized? yes, you have spoken in tongues?

[Dedicated Mind]

Michlow, when I first spoke in tongues, it was completely involuntary. It was my voice, my vocal chords and my breath but it was like a fountain of water gushing from my belly through my throat, words in tongues. Was your experience like this?

[Timmy]

No, you haven't been baptized? yes, you have spoken in tongues?

Yes and yes. ;)

[Dedicated Mind]

Yes and yes. ;)

Timmy, what's your church background? aog? charismatic?

[Dedicated Mind]

Michlow, I hope you answer my above post about tongues but I have another question for you. You said God told you to leave an apostolic church. Was that to attend a different church or to leave church altogether? I am sure that you are aware that the bible says we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. So why would God tell you something contrary to his word? What exactly did he tell you? If you don't mind me asking.

[jfrog]

wow, michlow. I didn't know you were so involved. I don't understand how you can be agnostic after being baptized and speaking in tongues. Did you feel anything spiritual when you were baptized? How can you doubt God after speaking in tongues? Wasn't it involuntary tongues by the spirit or was it repeated gibberish?

I'm not quite as far removed as Timmy and michlow. However, I'm not a christian. I've doubted everything and still doubt most everything.

I was baptized and spoke in tongues. I didn't feel much when I was baptized. Maybe relief. Maybe a little bit of feeling like I did something right and good. Baptism is not about feelings though.

As far as speaking in tongues, it was not repeated gibberish. My feelings at the time of speaking in tongues also confirms that it was not repeated gibberish. However, I doubt the legitimacy of any of my tongues experiences and since mine are just like everyone elses then I doubt theirs also. This does not mean I think they just repeat gibberish... One of the biggest confirmations for me that my tongues weren't legit is that to this day I feel that I could speak in them if I just closed my eyes, tightened up on the inside and let that tightness go up my throat and then began to speak. Heck, even the emotions that accompanied them somewhat return when I go through these motions and I'm not even a Christian.

[Timmy]

Timmy, what's your church background? aog? charismatic?

Born into the AG, left at age 50.

[*AQuietPlace*]

And I in fact still do occasionally speak in tongues.


Could you talk about this a little more? How/when you still speak in tongues? When you're praying, just out of the blue..... when? What triggers it?

[jfrog]

By the way I could do alot more theorizing on how tongues occur even though they aren't legit...

Let's take the example of a new convert. He learns that his new church teaches that those who never speak in tongues are not saved. This makes him long for the tongues experience that much more. He even prays and asks and begs God for this experience.

The church people tell him that he got close that night with "stammering lips." Of course he doesn't think that if tongues are involuntary then how do they know I am close? The reason they know he is close is because the events leading up to the actual tongues are all voluntary. (I'll provide more evidence for this thought later).

He comes again another night and rather quickly gets back to where he was last time with the stammering lips. He finally pushes through and speaks in tongues. Of course what actually happened is that he learned what voluntary actions to go through in order to eventually speak in tongues. This is evidenced by the fact that subsequent tongues experiences follow this one and that they are all entered into easier than the first one. In other words, in order to speak in tongues again he uses similar but refined voluntary actions to those that allowed him first to speak in tongues.

So the question is are tongues voluntary? For most people no! Most people cannot consistently produce exactly what actions are required to produce that experience. It is the lack of consistency that makes tongues involuntary. However, make no mistake that a person voluntarily has influence on whether or not he speaks in tongues.

[Michlow]

Michlow, when I first spoke in tongues, it was completely involuntary. It was my voice, my vocal chords and my breath but it was like a fountain of water gushing from my belly through my throat, words in tongues. Was your experience like this?

Could you talk about this a little more? How/when you still speak in tongues? When you're praying, just out of the blue..... when? What triggers it?

I kind of feel like I'm on the therapists couch, LOL

When I speak in tongues, it's not like I have no control over it. I can clamp my lips shut and stop my tongue from moving. But at the same time, it's not an action that I perform willingly.

The best way to describe why or when is that it seems to happen when I am totally and completely overcome emotionally. Whether this is joy, sadness, anger, excitement, it doesn't seem to matter. I guess I look at it takes over when I am beyond words or coherent thought.

It's one of the things in my experience that I cannot explain. And I'm pretty sure I'm not making it up. I guess there is a chance that it could be some sort of brainwashing / mass hysteria after effect, but I don't truly believe that.

[*AQuietPlace*]

I kind of feel like I'm on the therapists couch, LOL

When I speak in tongues, it's not like I have no control over it. I can clamp my lips shut and stop my tongue from moving. But at the same time, it's not an action that I perform willingly.

The best way to describe why or when is that it seems to happen when I am totally and completely overcome emotionally. Whether this is joy, sadness, anger, excitement, it doesn't seem to matter. I guess I look at it takes over when I am beyond words or coherent thought.

It's one of the things in my experience that I cannot explain. And I'm pretty sure I'm not making it up. I guess there is a chance that it could be some sort of brainwashing / mass hysteria after effect, but I don't truly believe that.
That's interesting. And I do know what you mean.

[Michlow]

Michlow, I hope you answer my above post about tongues but I have another question for you. You said God told you to leave an apostolic church. Was that to attend a different church or to leave church altogether? I am sure that you are aware that the bible says we should not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. So why would God tell you something contrary to his word? What exactly did he tell you? If you don't mind me asking.

First, you need to understand, that I don't necessarily believe that God wrote the Bible...I know that's another whole discussion right there, but I felt the need to add it here to answer your question about why God would tell me something "contrary to his word".

Which is not to say that I don't believe that the Bible has a place and use, as it does contain wisdom, and the experiences of many others who through the ages have searched for the divine.

Also, I would be the first admit that God showed me what He showed me...how I interpreted it, and what I did thereafter is on me. You also need to understand that at the time I was desperate, I was trying so hard to find Jesus among all the rules, and fear, and manipulation. Anyway, here is the story....

I was on vacation, and I was visiting a UPC church attended by several friends. The preacher’s sermon was from Mark 2, where some men bring a paralyzed man for healing, but cannot get through to Jesus because of the crowd, and so they lower him through the roof. The preacher was focused on the two men who carried their friend to Jesus, and was talking about bringing people to church.

So as I was sitting there, only half listening it was like the world around me stopped for a minute, and I had an epiphany. I really feel like God spoke to me, “Michelle, you are like that paralyzed man. You are trying so hard to get to me, but you are being blocked. The ones blocking you are the scribes and the Pharisees. The ones who are “closest to me” are the ones that are preventing you from getting through. It’s time to try and unorthodox route.”

Now I had been contemplating leaving for several years, so I real felt that God was telling me it was time. And truly, I still believe that. Though, he hasn’t said much since then, so I take full responsibility for the rest.

[*AQuietPlace*]

“Michelle, you are like that paralyzed man. You are trying so hard to get to me, but you are being blocked. The ones blocking you are the scribes and the Pharisees. The ones who are “closest to me” are the ones that are preventing you from getting through. It’s time to try and unorthodox route.”



I can relate to this. There is so much "religious thought" in my brain, that I sometimes have a very hard time sorting out what is God, and what is religion. I have said several times that I feel like there is a lot of religion getting between me and God.

[Michlow]

I'm not quite as far removed as Timmy and michlow. However, I'm not a christian. I've doubted everything and still doubt most everything.



This struck me as funny, because I still think of myself as a Christian, though I don't really care for the term. But the truth, is I'm a little too fond of Jesus to be anything else.

[Timmy]

Here's my theory. Tongues, messages from God, miracles, all that kind of thing: it could be a genuine supernatural God-initiated phenomenon. At least, in some cases it could be. And that right there ("in some cases" and "it could be") is the heart of the issue, to me. Now, I'm going to kinda violate the "don't tell God what He can or can't do" rule that seems to be in effect. But it's not that I think God can or can't do something. Here's what I think God won't do: use methods of communicating and interacting with humans that are unreliable (nobody can tell if it really was God or not) and easy to fake or lie about. It also creates confusion, fear, despair ("why doesn't it ever work for me?"), guilt, etc. I seriously doubt that God is behind it.

I'm not saying anyone here is lying or intentionally faking. And recall where I said it could be genuine. IMO, God won't do that, but He could if He wanted to. If He does, I don't see how anyone could say it's a good thing to do, given the reality of how often and in what circumstances it happens.

So, how do I account for the non-lying, non-faking experiences that so often happen, such as God's instructions for Mich to get out of the UPCI? The human mind is a truly amazing thing. It is capable of working in ways that astonish us, giving us hunches that often pan out, intuition, and ideas seem to pop in from out of the blue. I think that's just the way the brain works. Perhaps God designed it that way. It doesn't always work out, when such things happen, just as it doesn't always work out in the more "normal" workings of the brain -- we puzzle over some kind of problem and we never actually solve it. (Just like when prayers don't always heal the sick.)

Mich had been contemplating leaving for a long time before her epiphany. My best guess is that it all came to a head at some specific time, her mind went into an alternative "mode" where her consciousness was altered, and things became suddenly clear to her. This is not to discount or doubt the experience, not at all. It was a very real experience, very profound. It's just my offer of an alternative possibility of the underlying mechanism. And just my two cents. ;)

[Michlow]

Here's my theory. Tongues, messages from God, miracles, all that kind of thing: it could be a genuine supernatural God-initiated phenomenon. At least, in some cases it could be. And that right there ("in some cases" and "it could be") is the heart of the issue, to me. Now, I'm going to kinda violate the "don't tell God what He can or can't do" rule that seems to be in effect. But it's not that I think God can or can't do something. Here's what I think God won't do: use methods of communicating and interacting with humans that are unreliable (nobody can tell if it really was God or not) and easy to fake or lie about. It also creates confusion, fear, despair ("why doesn't it ever work for me?"), guilt, etc. I seriously doubt that God is behind it.

I'm not saying anyone here is lying or intentionally faking. And recall where I said it could be genuine. IMO, God won't do that, but He could if He wanted to. If He does, I don't see how anyone could say it's a good thing to do, given the reality of how often and in what circumstances it happens.

So, how do I account for the non-lying, non-faking experiences that so often happen, such as God's instructions for Mich to get out of the UPCI? The human mind is a truly amazing thing. It is capable of working in ways that astonish us, giving us hunches that often pan out, intuition, and ideas seem to pop in from out of the blue. I think that's just the way the brain works. Perhaps God designed it that way. It doesn't always work out, when such things happen, just as it doesn't always work out in the more "normal" workings of the brain -- we puzzle over some kind of problem and we never actually solve it. (Just like when prayers don't always heal the sick.)

Mich had been contemplating leaving for a long time before her epiphany. My best guess is that it all came to a head at some specific time, her mind went into an alternative "mode" where her consciousness was altered, and things became suddenly clear to her. This is not to discount or doubt the experience, not at all. It was a very real experience, very profound. It's just my offer of an alternative possibility of the underlying mechanism. And just my two cents. ;)

I don't disagree with any of that. When I am talking to Christian's I might credit the Spirit, when I am talking to others I might credit my gut. (which has a pretty good percentage in making good decisions!). I just choose to believe that my intuition is a way in which God interacts with me. I also fully admit that it comforts me to believe that.

[Timmy]

I don't disagree with any of that. When I am talking to Christian's I might credit the Spirit, when I am talking to others I might credit my gut. (which has a pretty good percentage in making good decisions!). I just choose to believe that my intuition is a way in which God interacts with me. I also fully admit that it comforts me to believe that.

:thumbsup

[Dedicated Mind]

I'm not quite as far removed as Timmy and michlow. However, I'm not a christian. I've doubted everything and still doubt most everything.

I was baptized and spoke in tongues. I didn't feel much when I was baptized. Maybe relief. Maybe a little bit of feeling like I did something right and good. Baptism is not about feelings though.

As far as speaking in tongues, it was not repeated gibberish. My feelings at the time of speaking in tongues also confirms that it was not repeated gibberish. However, I doubt the legitimacy of any of my tongues experiences and since mine are just like everyone elses then I doubt theirs also. This does not mean I think they just repeat gibberish... One of the biggest confirmations for me that my tongues weren't legit is that to this day I feel that I could speak in them if I just closed my eyes, tightened up on the inside and let that tightness go up my throat and then began to speak. Heck, even the emotions that accompanied them somewhat return when I go through these motions and I'm not even a Christian.

Jfrog, my first experience with tongues was completely involuntary tongues. I have absolutely no doubt about their legitimacy. Tongues after that initial experience have been a mixture of voluntary and involuntary. I can understand your ddoubt because we can repeat these tongue experiences at will, but there are at least 3 occasions when tongues were completely involuntary and undeniable to me personally. I think you should seek a truly undeniable experience, but it takes being sold out to have it.

[Timmy]

Jfrog, my first experience with tongues was completely involuntary tongues. I have absolutely no doubt about their legitimacy. Tongues after that initial experience have been a mixture of voluntary and involuntary. I can understand your ddoubt because we can repeat these tongue experiences at will, but there are at least 3 occasions when tongues were completely involuntary and undeniable to me personally. I think you should seek a truly undeniable experience, but it takes being sold out to have it.

I've heard of cases where the person couldn't stop speaking in tongues when they tried, and couldn't speak English when they tried. Was your experience like this?

[Dedicated Mind]

I've heard of cases where the person couldn't stop speaking in tongues when they tried, and couldn't speak English when they tried. Was your experience like this?

no, my involuntary tongues only lasted a few minutes but it was just like a gush of water flowing from my spirit.

[Timmy]

no, my involuntary tongues only lasted a few minutes but it was just like a gush of water flowing from my spirit.

OK, thanks.

Any thoughts on my theory?

[Dedicated Mind]

Michlow, I don't doubt your experience since God said to continue to seek him. I have a great book to recommend. It's free online. It's called "Release of The Spirit" by Watchman Nee. He basically talks about the inner man and the outer man. He says our inner man is our spirit and our outer man is our soul life made up of mind, emotion and will. He says that God leads us through experiences in order to break our outer man and let our inner spirit flow to heal and minister. It is an interesting book and where I am in God right now.

http://www.lsm.org/ - home page, click "online publications", then "collected works of watchman nee" then book #54 the breaking of the outerman and release of the spirit. You have to skip over to chapter 10 in the left column of the screen to see the beginning of the book.

[Dedicated Mind]

OK, thanks.

Any thoughts on my theory?

Timmy, I don't really understand your theory, my reading comprehension is not too good, unless the writing is clear. Are you saying that if there is doubt then it is not of God? And that epiphanies can be a natural occurrence of the mind? can u explain better?

[Timmy]

Timmy, I don't really understand your theory, my reading comprehension is not too good, unless the writing is clear. Are you saying that if there is doubt then it is not of God? And that epiphanies can be a natural occurrence of the mind? can u explain better?

Sure, no problem. But later, when I have more time.

[jfrog]

Jfrog, my first experience with tongues was completely involuntary tongues. I have absolutely no doubt about their legitimacy. Tongues after that initial experience have been a mixture of voluntary and involuntary. I can understand your ddoubt because we can repeat these tongue experiences at will, but there are at least 3 occasions when tongues were completely involuntary and undeniable to me personally. I think you should seek a truly undeniable experience, but it takes being sold out to have it.

DM, I spoke in tongues at some point almost everyday for the first year or two that I was in church. I was in 8th or 9th grade at a public school. I remember having a shop class. My teacher often let me stay in the classroom and pray while everyone else went to the shop. In math class (actually in most of my classes) I would finish my work as quickly as possible so that I could have extra time to pray or read the bible. At lunch time I would often walk back and forth down the hall silently praying to God while everyone else talked and cussed and all that. I know what it means to be sold out to God. I also know what its like to have people compliment me over how I worshipped God during church. That's not to say I didn't have my own personal shortcomings. However, I did not have any experience with tongues during all that time that I can look back on without doubt. If I was going to have an undeniable experience then it would have happened during that time.

[Dedicated Mind]

jfrog, I didn't mean to belittle your experience. I just hope you don't give up on faith in God. Love you Bro.

[jfrog]

jfrog, I didn't mean to belittle your experience. I just hope you don't give up on faith in God. Love you Bro.

I didn't take it that you were. I understand the need to question others experiences so I felt I should elaborate some on my experiences. Though I'm sure if you or anyone wanted to they could find fault with my experiences and claim that the problem was me all along. (I don't think you are trying to do that though).

I do believe in God but maybe I should call him the unknown God, for I know nothing about him.

[notofworks]

Let's see. I attended a UPC church for a few months when I was 18, and was baptized. I went back about 6 years later, and finished the rest of the steps (I was later baptized a second time as well). I attend 3 different apostolic churches in 2 different states over the next 8 years. During the first half of that, I was quite conservative, I followed all the standards, didn't watch TV or movies. At one time I even believed in holy magic hair!

I'm a bookworm. So when I decided to become apostolic, I read all the literature I could get my hands on by apostolic writers, listened to thousands of sermons live and on tape, and read the bible through hundreds of times. I tithed, I taught Bible Studies, and I thought anyone who didn't follow the 3-steps was hellbound.

So I think you can safely say that I was pretty apostolic. If FCF & NFCF were still around you would be able to find posts where I argued FOR The things I now argue against. (Though I admit that I'm glad those things are gone, as I wouldn't want to read it!)

I admittedly had very bad experiences in a spiritually abusive church under a very controlling Pastor, which had a big impact on my spiritual outlook.

I came to the conclusion that standards were not salvational several years before I left. In fact, I continued to keep attending an apostolic church until God told me to leave. (I accept that 90% of the people reading this, would never believe that it was God).

Oh, as for speaking in tongues, I spoke in tongues after I received the Holy Ghost (several months after...but that's for a different conversation). And I in fact still do occasionally speak in tongues.


Ok, you just totally fried my brain. I'm just reading through this and maybe someone will ask, but.....wow. Knowing what I know about you.......well, you fried my brain.

Can you explain?

[notofworks]

Ok, I finished reading and I can't really say I understand, but I hear what you're saying. It's been many years since my last "tongues" and I can completely say that any "tongues" I ever experienced was strictly what I learned to do. I don't have any fond memories of anything that has to do with tongues, unfortunately.

[mizpeh]

Ok, you just totally fried my brain. I'm just reading through this and maybe someone will ask, but.....wow. Knowing what I know about you.......well, you fried my brain.

Can you explain?
Why did that "fry your brain"?

[notofworks]

Why did that "fry your brain"?

That she's basically agnostic, or there-a-bouts, and still speaks in tongues. Of course, there are many religion forms that "speak in tongues" but she's not in any of them, to my knowledge.

[mizpeh]

That she's basically agnostic, or there-a-bouts, and still speaks in tongues. Of course, there are many religion forms that "speak in tongues" but she's not in any of them, to my knowledge.

My guess is she speaks in tongues when she has her mind on God.

From my experience, speaking in tongues isn't something we do, we don't initiate it, it happens because the Spirit of God in us causes it to happen.

[*AQuietPlace*]

My guess is she speaks in tongues when she has her mind on God.

From my experience, speaking in tongues isn't something we do, we don't initiate it, it happens because the Spirit of God in us causes it to happen.
Even to someone who is a confessed agnostic?? She is currently agnostic, and she currently speaks in tongues. That does make my brain go :confused: :confused: :confused:


(sorry, Mich, for talking about you as if you aren't here ;) )

[notofworks]

Even to someone who is a confessed agnostic?? She is currently agnostic, and she currently speaks in tongues. That does make my brain go :confused: :confused: :confused:


(sorry, Mich, for talking about you as if you aren't here ;) )

She's not!! Let's let her have it!:lol

Seriously, I'm anxious to hear what she has to say.

[mizpeh]

Even to someone who is a confessed agnostic?? She is currently agnostic, and she currently speaks in tongues. That does make my brain go :confused: :confused: :confused:


(sorry, Mich, for talking about you as if you aren't here ;) ) I've heard carnal Christians speak with tongues when they are seeking God.

All I'm saying is I don't doubt that at times she speaks in tongues and that those tongues are a manifestation of the Spirit of God within her.

It tells me that God has not given her over to a reprobate mind despite the struggle with doubt she is having. What is really confusing to me is how she can deny the Bible as true having experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking with other tongues. You would think such an experience would cement in her heart the truth of the word of God.

[Timmy]

Timmy, I don't really understand your theory, my reading comprehension is not too good, unless the writing is clear. Are you saying that if there is doubt then it is not of God?

No.


And that epiphanies can be a natural occurrence of the mind?

Yes.


can u explain better?

Probably. But now, :bedtime TTYL. :)

[Michlow]

Ok, you just totally fried my brain. I'm just reading through this and maybe someone will ask, but.....wow. Knowing what I know about you.......well, you fried my brain.

Can you explain?

Ok, I finished reading and I can't really say I understand, but I hear what you're saying. It's been many years since my last "tongues" and I can completely say that any "tongues" I ever experienced was strictly what I learned to do. I don't have any fond memories of anything that has to do with tongues, unfortunately.

Why did that "fry your brain"?

That she's basically agnostic, or there-a-bouts, and still speaks in tongues. Of course, there are many religion forms that "speak in tongues" but she's not in any of them, to my knowledge.

My guess is she speaks in tongues when she has her mind on God.

From my experience, speaking in tongues isn't something we do, we don't initiate it, it happens because the Spirit of God in us causes it to happen.

Even to someone who is a confessed agnostic?? She is currently agnostic, and she currently speaks in tongues. That does make my brain go :confused: :confused: :confused:


(sorry, Mich, for talking about you as if you aren't here ;) )


She's not!! Let's let her have it!:lol

Seriously, I'm anxious to hear what she has to say.


I admit it. I tend to be a total and complete Dichotomy. And I confess, I get somewhat of a kick out of throwing people off, but only because I do that to myself half the time, LOL

I think I need to change my signature line! Because honestly, Agnostic, is not really the best label for me. (Maybe Agnostolic..lol).

I explained my views a bit a few weeks ago here, when I had called my self an Agnostic, a Deist and a Theist...and was asked to explain.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=910768&postcount=30

An Agnostic is someone who believes that there may or may no be a God, and that it can't really be known for sure.

A Deist believes that there is a creator God, but that he doesn't really intervene in human affairs

And a Theist also believes in a God, and does believe he is a personal and interactive God.

I claim all 3 of these, because I sometimes doubt that there even is a God, and I often doubt that if there is, it's possible to know anything about Him. Other times I am sure He exists, but feel he is very passive and doesn't really care about the trivial details of our lives.

But there are other days, when I believe He does exist, that He does care and He has some sort of plan.

Whether or not I think He exists, I almost always think of Him as Jesus, which I guess makes me a little tiny percentage oneness ;)

[Michlow]

I've heard carnal Christians speak with tongues when they are seeking God.

All I'm saying is I don't doubt that at times she speaks in tongues and that those tongues are a manifestation of the Spirit of God within her.

It tells me that God has not given her over to a reprobate mind despite the struggle with doubt she is having. What is really confusing to me is how she can deny the Bible as true having experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking with other tongues. You would think such an experience would cement in her heart the truth of the word of God.

The "word of God" was the weapon that was used the most often and the most effectively to beat me into a broken and bloody lump...spiritually speaking. So to say that I have little trust for it is speaking mildly.

But once upon the time I reverenced the Bible as the thing I held most dear. I worshiped it. You would not be wrong to say that there was idolatry involved, as it was much more tangible to me than an invisible God.

When I got to the very very dark place where I came to believe that God was a horrible being that tortured us for his own amusement, the Bible seemed only to back that up. So I was left in this strange kind of limbo. Wanting to believe in a God that was good...but having very little to back up that desire.

And I admit...the Bible stumped me. I didn't know what to do with it. I couldn't worship it like before, but to completely ignore it left me feeling like I was treading water in the middle of a stormy ocean. I couldn't believe it, but I couldn't completely discard it either. I stayed like that for almost a year, until someone wrote something to me that included the words "God never promised to send us a book, he promised to send Himself. So I decided that rather than focus on the book that I had tried (and failed) to use as an instruction manual, I would focus instead on that Spirit.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Mich, it sounds to me like God promised to take you on a journey.... a journey that would lead you to him. And it sounds like that is exactly what he's doing.

[Timmy]

Mornin'! :D

OK, first, regarding epiphanies and other phenomena, such as visions, voices, etc. These things certainly can be naturally (or artificially) induced, triggered by things such as sleep deprivation, concentration, meditation, suggestion, drugs, etc. or combinations of things. Dreams, for example, are abundant in our normal experience, and sometimes they are so strange and vivid and specific, or maybe they solve a problem we've been having, that people think they are from God. But they could just be the culmination of wake-time events and memories and thoughts.

Now, regarding doubt. I don't think that doubt, whether it's about a specific case or about the concept of God's intervention in general, would prove anything about whether these are from God. My point was that, in my opinion, God would not use methods like speaking to people (either audibly or internally), visions, dreams, etc. The reason I believe this is that these methods are not reliable, and can easily be faked. God is smart enough to know that we mere mortals really can't tell if a "message" was from Him or not, so why would He sometimes give certain people actual messages?

Is there any question that, at least sometimes, people do fake these things? Some incentives for faking, say, a word from God are money (better offerings for an evangelist, e.g.), fame, prestige and admiration.

Still, I don't claim that any of this disproves divine communication. It's just the reason I think it is very unlikely that God does such things, and it's just my opinion.

Now, to reiterate, I do not accuse everyone with an amazing story of messages or visions from God of lying. Back to the first point, I think profound experiences can be very convincing to the recipient, and can be very helpful! Where it gets nasty is when people play them up and brag about them all the time, and especially when they are used as weapons of manipulation or fear or shame against people.

What about an amazing prediction in, e.g., a dream or a word of knowledge that one "couldn't possibly" have known if it weren't for God? Well, is God the only possible explanation for it? Again, sometimes people just cheat, and there are famous examples. But not everyone is a fraud. What about the honest folks? Many things come to mind and, IMO, they are more likely than divine messages. Sometimes, people randomly guess right. When they do, it amazes even them, and that's when things are remembered and talked about. When they guess wrong, they may iteratively refine the guessing until it becomes amazingly accurate, or they drop it and forget about it. And there are skills that can be developed and improved with practice, where the chances of a "hit" are improved: reading body language, picking up clues in conversation, general "guesses" that don't seem too general (someone in the room has back pain!).

I think these methods can be used innocently and unconsciously, even amazing the one receiving the "word". But quite often, IMO, they are used intentionally by hucksters and frauds.

Now, I said these methods that God allegedly uses to communicate with people are unreliable. By that I mean that it is impossible to determine with 100% certainty that any particular message is really from God. This is true no matter how amazing the message is, or how profound the experience was. It could have been from God, or it could have been one of the natural (or induced) phenomena I have described. People can say "I know God's voice" all they want, but that may just be wishful thinking. Nothing more than faith, and faith is not proof.

[Dedicated Mind]

well I agree Timmy, that messages can be natural phenomena and that faith is not proof. What is more sure is the bible that we have as the word of God. That's why I question Michlow if God told her to leave church when the bible says not to forsake the assembly.

I still believe God can communicate but does so rarely. Why? I don't know. I think God may have wanted Michlow to go to another church.

[Timmy]

well I agree Timmy, that messages can be natural phenomena and that faith is not proof. What is more sure is the bible that we have as the word of God. That's why I question Michlow if God told her to leave church when the bible says not to forsake the assembly.

I still believe God can communicate but does so rarely. Why? I don't know. I think God may have wanted Michlow to go to another church.

That doesn't sound like an "unorthodox route". :)

[Dedicated Mind]

That doesn't sound like an "unorthodox route". :)

not sure God would speak so plainly. why does Michlow get a speacial path to God while millions have to rely on an orthodox route? On second thought maybe what I'm saying is I don't believe Michlow had a divine encounter but a natural one.

[Michlow]

not sure God would speak so plainly. why does Michlow get a speacial path to God while millions have to rely on an orthodox route? On second thought maybe what I'm saying is I don't believe Michlow had a divine encounter but a natural one.

Why did Noah & his family get the ark, while millions died? Why did Moses get the burning bush? Why did Jesus heal some, but not others?

[Timmy]

not sure God would speak so plainly. why does Michlow get a speacial path to God while millions have to rely on an orthodox route? On second thought maybe what I'm saying is I don't believe Michlow had a divine encounter but a natural one.

Well, that's your opinion, and it would be my opinion, too, and, from what she said, Mich may allow for the possibility that it wasn't literally a divine message. But it was a profound experience, and she took action based on it, and attributes it to God. Who are we to second-guess what she thinks about it? We weren't there. We didn't experience it.

And the same can be said for every claimed message or miracle. Which reminds me: it isn't just Apostolics who believe God does talks to them and does things for them. And it isn't just Pentecostals. It isn't just Christians, even! What's up with that? :winkgrin

But what about the more insidious cases? God's direct commands have been cited for lots of strange, sometimes horrible, actions. Do we have any basis to say they were wrong, or lying? Not all of these messages contradict scripture, for example.

[Dedicated Mind]

Why did Noah & his family get the ark, while millions died? Why did Moses get the burning bush? Why did Jesus heal some, but not others?

Now you are placing youself in the realm of Noah and Moses? The bible clearly states that some were not healed due to lack of faith. So I expect that God is going to use you to affect humanity in the same way He used Noah and Moses? God has ordained that by the foolishness of preaching, men shall be saved that believe. Ministry is God ordained. Why is it that you can experience God and be saved without a minister, without a church and without a bible? I think you are swimming against the current and I don't believe that God would direct you this way. What is the ultimate goal? A personal mountain top experience? The ultimate goal should be to save others and fulfill the great commission. How can you disciple others if you don't believe in ministry, church or the bible?

[Timmy]

:popcorn2

[Dedicated Mind]

Well, that's your opinions, and it would be my opinion, too, and, from what she said, Mich may allow for the possibility that it wasn't literally a divine message. But it was a profound experience, and she took action based on it, and attributes it to God. Who are we to second-guess what she thinks about it? We weren't there. We didn't experience it.

And the same can be said for every claimed message or miracle. Which reminds me: it isn't just Apostolics who believe God does talks to them and does things for them. And it isn't just Pentecostals. It isn't just Christians, even! What's up with that? :winkgrin

But what about the more insidious cases? God's direct commands have been cited for lots of strange, sometimes horrible, actions. Do we have any basis to say they were wrong, or lying? Not all of these messages contradict scripture, for example.

I think scripture is the only rule we have to go by. And a healthy dose of skepticism.

[Timmy]

I think scripture is the only rule we have to go by. And a healthy dose of skepticism.

I guess my problem is an unhealthy dose! :ursofunny

[Michlow]

Now you are placing youself in the realm of Noah and Moses? The bible clearly states that some were not healed due to lack of faith. So I expect that God is going to use you to affect humanity in the same way He used Noah and Moses? God has ordained that by the foolishness of preaching, men shall be saved that believe. Ministry is God ordained. Why is it that you can experience God and be saved without a minister, without a church and without a bible? I think you are swimming against the current and I don't believe that God would direct you this way. What is the ultimate goal? A personal mountain top experience? The ultimate goal should be to save others and fulfill the great commission. How can you disciple others if you don't believe in ministry, church or the bible?

LOL

I consider myself nothing like Noah and Moses. And I really doubt God is going to use me to perform some mighty work, nor do I particularly have any desire to. Which is not to say that I don't want to leave this world a little better for my presence in it.

I spent a decade of my life obsessed about God, religion, church, heaven/hell, salvation, the Bible, Doctrine, etc. Now it's taken a very very reduced role in my life.

I'm not really looking for anything from God. If he exists and he loves me and he wants to be part of my life, great. But if that's true, he understands exactly why I keep him at arms length. Maybe he's working on correcting that, I don't know. Where my faith comes in, is where I keep myself as open to Him as I am capable of being.

But honestly, that is the extent to which spirituality plays in my life.

[Dedicated Mind]

LOL

I consider myself nothing like Noah and Moses. And I really doubt God is going to use me to perform some mighty work, nor do I particularly have any desire to. Which is not to say that I don't want to leave this world a little better for my presence in it.

I spent a decade of my life obsessed about God, religion, church, heaven/hell, salvation, the Bible, Doctrine, etc. Now it's taken a very very reduced role in my life.

I'm not really looking for anything from God. If he exists and he loves me and he wants to be part of my life, great. But if that's true, he understands exactly why I keep him at arms length. Maybe he's working on correcting that, I don't know. Where my faith comes in, is where I keep myself as open to Him as I am capable of being.

But honestly, that is the extent to which spirituality plays in my life.

Michlow, you totally dodged my line of argument. The bible says that by the foolishness of preaching, men would be saved that believed. God ordained ministry as the vehicle of salvation. How do you think you can be saved without ministry? Even ministers have other ministries in their lives.

[Michlow]

Michlow, you totally dodged my line of argument. The bible says that by the foolishness of preaching, men would be saved that believed. God ordained ministry as the vehicle of salvation. How do you think you can be saved without ministry? Even ministers have other ministries in their lives.


Sigh....

I thought it was already established that I don't believe the Bible to be the word of God.

[Dedicated Mind]

Sigh....

I thought it was already established that I don't believe the Bible to be the word of God.

You're hopeless. Don't you think if there was a God that he would communicate with humanity. Why are you so special that he would bypass the scripture and only give you personal revelation?

[Timmy]

You're hopeless. Don't you think if there was a God that he would communicate with humanity. Why are you so special that he would bypass the scripture and only give you personal revelation?

:blink

[Michlow]

You're hopeless. Don't you think if there was a God that he would communicate with humanity. Why are you so special that he would bypass the scripture and only give you personal revelation?

Well at least you are honest about it! Actually, this conversation has changed my mind, I think Timmy made some good points. The few things that I reserved as being of God, most likely were products of my own brain.

Is that better? Is it better for me to believe nothing, rather than something that differs from your beliefs?

I have never understood how a group of people that preach that receiving the holy Ghost is so all fire important at the same time secretly think it useless.

[*AQuietPlace*]

You're hopeless. Don't you think if there was a God that he would communicate with humanity. Why are you so special that he would bypass the scripture and only give you personal revelation?
Seriously? Wow!

She's certainly not hopeless. And I don't think it's up to us to judge whether or not God spoke to her, since she's not telling us what God wants US to do.

[Timmy]

That reminds me of another reason I don't believe that God talks to people: the messages are so often contradictory! This is most clearly seen when the messages are regarding "truth". These special kinds of messages are sometimes called "revelations". The Bible talks about this phenomenon where we are told that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. But how many different "truths" are there? Does He really tell some people about Oneness and others about the Trinity? My hunch is that "revelations" are nothing more than our own understandings of things being kind of solidified in our minds, perhaps accompanied by one of those profound experiences. And telling people it was a revelation might improve the chances of persuading them we're right! :lol

[Dedicated Mind]

Well at least you are honest about it! Actually, this conversation has changed my mind, I think Timmy made some good points. The few things that I reserved as being of God, most likely were products of my own brain.

Is that better? Is it better for me to believe nothing, rather than something that differs from your beliefs?

I have never understood how a group of people that preach that receiving the holy Ghost is so all fire important at the same time secretly think it useless.

Michlow, I am sorry if I get frustrated with you. I only wish you the best. I don't think your experience with God is useless. I just don't believe your experience with God can be contrary to the bible. My frustration is with your lack of belief in the bible. Please think about this. If the bible isn't true, then God would have to reveal himself to everyone personally. How is humanity to be saved without the scriptures? What other vehicle is there? I know you disagree with things like killings in the OT, but what is there in the NT that you find objectionable? please respond to all of my points.

[Timmy]

Michlow, I am sorry if I get frustrated with you. I only wish you the best. I don't think your experience with God is useless. I just don't believe your experience with God can be contrary to the bible. My frustration is with your lack of belief in the bible. Please think about this. If the bible isn't true, then God would have to reveal himself to everyone personally. How is humanity to be saved without the scriptures? What other vehicle is there? I know you disagree with things like killings in the OT, but what is there in the NT that you find objectionable? please respond to all of my points.

Humanity would not even need saving (more accurately, not get the idea that there is something to be saved from) without the Bible!

[Brad Murphy]

Michlow, I am sorry if I get frustrated with you. I only wish you the best. I don't think your experience with God is useless. I just don't believe your experience with God can be contrary to the bible. My frustration is with your lack of belief in the bible. Please think about this. If the bible isn't true, then God would have to reveal himself to everyone personally. How is humanity to be saved without the scriptures? What other vehicle is there? I know you disagree with things like killings in the OT, but what is there in the NT that you find objectionable? please respond to all of my points.

Actually, the bolded is what I expect. Not a compilation of copies of copies of copies of letters translated from language to language, decided by the Council of Nicea... a group of men who didn't even have the Holy Ghost by all accounts (which seems to be the standard for being able to make these types of decisions).

[Dedicated Mind]

Actually, the bolded is what I expect. Not a compilation of copies of copies of copies of letters translated from language to language, decided by the Council of Nicea... a group of men who didn't even have the Holy Ghost by all accounts (which seems to be the standard for being able to make these types of decisions).

there is a thread about the canon in the fellowship hall. I don't want to relitigate the canon in this thread, but like I asked Michlow, what exactly in the NT do you find objectionable?

[Timmy]

there is a thread about the canon in the fellowship hall. I don't want to relitigate the canon in this thread, but like I asked Michlow, what exactly in the NT do you find objectionable?

Oooh! Oooh! Ask me! :lol

I find the emphasis on fear disturbing. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead (no mercy or grace for them), it spread great fear. And anyone who reads Matthew 7:22-23 without wondering if they themselves might hear the horrible words "I never knew you: depart from me" just isn't paying attention! Those people truly believed that they were saved. Just as you probably do. But they weren't.

[Dedicated Mind]

Oooh! Oooh! Ask me! :lol

I find the emphasis on fear disturbing. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead (no mercy or grace for them), it spread great fear. And anyone who reads Matthew 7:22-23 without wondering if they themselves might hear the horrible words "I never knew you: depart from me" just isn't paying attention! Those people truly believed that they were saved. Just as you probably do. But they weren't.

Salvation is a serious issue, I think fear and reverence is an important attitude for such a grave topic. Ananias and Sapphira lied to God by lying to the ministry. Being witnesses to such a miraculous move of God as that church was, A & S had no excuse to doubt God, but were held responsible for their knowledge and experience. I think matthew 7 should inspire us to question our beliefs and our standing with God to be sure of our salvation. All of these examples have edification value imo. next?

[pelathais]

That reminds me of another reason I don't believe that God talks to people: the messages are so often contradictory! This is most clearly seen when the messages are regarding "truth". These special kinds of messages are sometimes called "revelations". The Bible talks about this phenomenon where we are told that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. But how many different "truths" are there? Does He really tell some people about Oneness and others about the Trinity? My hunch is that "revelations" are nothing more than our own understandings of things being kind of solidified in our minds, perhaps accompanied by one of those profound experiences. And telling people it was a revelation might improve the chances of persuading them we're right! :lol

Any thought that is accompanied by an endorphin rush is supernatural in origin. Or not. It may be that some folks have so few "illuminations" of thought that they are entirely unaccustomed to the experience. Thus, when they do have an original thought (or think that they have) the neuro chemicals of their brain are released with a flood of joy and bliss.

I have a similar experience reading a geology text or discovering something new about living organisms.

[Timmy]

Any thought that is accompanied by an endorphin rush is supernatural in origin. Or not. It may be that some folks have so few "illuminations" of thought that they are entirely unaccustomed to the experience. Thus, when they do have an original thought (or think that they have) the neuro chemicals of their brain are released with a flood of joy and bliss.

I have a similar experience reading a geology text or discovering something new about living organisms.

:thumbsup

[Timmy]

Salvation is a serious issue, I think fear and reverence is an important attitude for such a grave topic. Ananias and Sapphira lied to God by lying to the ministry. Being witnesses to such a miraculous move of God as that church was, A & S had no excuse to doubt God, but were held responsible for their knowledge and experience. I think matthew 7 should inspire us to question our beliefs and our standing with God to be sure of our salvation. All of these examples have edification value imo. next?

Oh, I'm quite familiar with the "answers" to all of my "objections", so I'm not sure it would be worthwhile ticking them off one at a time. But you asked and I answered. (OK, you asked Mich and Brad, so pardon my jumping in! :lol)

[mizpeh]

Oooh! Oooh! Ask me! :lol

I find the emphasis on fear disturbing. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. When Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead (no mercy or grace for them), it spread great fear. And anyone who reads Matthew 7:22-23 without wondering if they themselves might hear the horrible words "I never knew you: depart from me" just isn't paying attention! Those people truly believed that they were saved. Just as you probably do. But they weren't.Your point?

God is holy and just. God is good and loving. These attributes all play a part in God's approach to each of us. His holiness demands punishment of sin. His love extends grace to save sinners from punishment. Some folks are saved by fear and others by love. Some folks depart from sin because they fear the punishment of God. Some folks turn to God because they see his love for them in Christ.

I don't see your point.

[Timmy]

Your point?

God is holy and just. God is good and loving. These attributes all play a part in God's approach to each of us. His holiness demands punishment of sin. His love extends grace to save sinners from punishment. Some folks are saved by fear and others by love. Some folks depart from sin because they fear the punishment of God. Some folks turn to God because they see his love for them in Christ.

I don't see your point.

No problem.

[Michlow]

Seriously? Wow!

She's certainly not hopeless. And I don't think it's up to us to judge whether or not God spoke to her, since she's not telling us what God wants US to do.

Thanks AQP, It's nice to be defended :friend

Michlow, I am sorry if I get frustrated with you. I only wish you the best. I don't think your experience with God is useless. I just don't believe your experience with God can be contrary to the bible. My frustration is with your lack of belief in the bible. Please think about this. If the bible isn't true, then God would have to reveal himself to everyone personally. How is humanity to be saved without the scriptures? What other vehicle is there? I know you disagree with things like killings in the OT, but what is there in the NT that you find objectionable? please respond to all of my points.

I DO believe that God reveals himself to everyone personally. It's called the drawing of the Spirit. Doesn't your bible say that no one can come near to God unless the spirit draws him? The same bible says that Jesus would not leave us comfortless, but would send the Spirit, to lead and guide us into all truth.

My objection is not that the Bible exists. My objection is that the Bible itself becomes an object of worship and reverence. Like the pharisees that didn't recognize Jesus because he didn't fit into their Law. Many Christians can't accept that anything is of God that doesn't fit into their "instruction manual".


Actually, the bolded is what I expect. Not a compilation of copies of copies of copies of letters translated from language to language, decided by the Council of Nicea... a group of men who didn't even have the Holy Ghost by all accounts (which seems to be the standard for being able to make these types of decisions).

there is a thread about the canon in the fellowship hall. I don't want to relitigate the canon in this thread, but like I asked Michlow, what exactly in the NT do you find objectionable?

Paul? Sexism. A lot of it's Cultural, it was a completely different world, with different challenges. I think a lot of it just doesn't translate. Which is not to say that there is nothing to learn from it. There is a lot of wisdom in it. But I don't think we should pattern our lives after the lives of people that lived 2000 years ago. Besides which....if you have a book that tells you exactly how to live you life...what do you need God, or the Spirit for?

[Dedicated Mind]

Thanks AQP, It's nice to be defended :friend



I DO believe that God reveals himself to everyone personally. It's called the drawing of the Spirit. Doesn't your bible say that no one can come near to God unless the spirit draws him? The same bible says that Jesus would not leave us comfortless, but would send the Spirit, to lead and guide us into all truth.

My objection is not that the Bible exists. My objection is that the Bible itself becomes an object of worship and reverence. Like the pharisees that didn't recognize Jesus because he didn't fit into their Law. Many Christians can't accept that anything is of God that doesn't fit into their "instruction manual".






Paul? Sexism. A lot of it's Cultural, it was a completely different world, with different challenges. I think a lot of it just doesn't translate. Which is not to say that there is nothing to learn from it. There is a lot of wisdom in it. But I don't think we should pattern our lives after the lives of people that lived 2000 years ago. Besides which....if you have a book that tells you exactly how to live you life...what do you need God, or the Spirit for?

Well Michlow, I agree with you. The spirit of God does have a role in everyone's salvation. The argument you are making about the role of the spirit is coming from the bible. So I agree with you on the spirit's role but I think the bible is equally important. I understand your argument about making doctrine more important than spirit, the bible says that God is seeking worshippers to worship him in spirit and in truth. So to me both spirit and bible are important.

I also agree with you on Paul and sexism but, lots of people see those problems and interpret paul's sexism as cultural and not the instructions of God. Even Paul said some things were his own instruction and other things were God's instruction.

I'm not sure the bible claims to be the exact words of God. The bible says the scriptures are inspired by God. So that leaves some room for human input and human fallibility. So I think I agree with your view on alot but I think I value the scriptures a little more than you. hope we can be friends. :friend

[Timmy]

Salvation is a serious issue, I think fear and reverence is an important attitude for such a grave topic. Ananias and Sapphira lied to God by lying to the ministry. Being witnesses to such a miraculous move of God as that church was, A & S had no excuse to doubt God, but were held responsible for their knowledge and experience. I think matthew 7 should inspire us to question our beliefs and our standing with God to be sure of our salvation. All of these examples have edification value imo. next?

OK, one more. Promises. Even though I already know the explanation, I have to say that the promises, since they are so hard to receive (that's part of the explanation -- there are conditions to be met), are virtually pointless. But beyond that, they are an immense source of frustration and despair for the people who try to follow the Bible. Sometimes it leads to depression, even suicide. Sometimes people (usually children) die, when they try to follow James' instructions, rather than go to a doctor.

But it's funny, some of the promises could also be said to be fulfilled no matter what actually happens. You can't really tell if they were or not, so anyone who chooses to can say that they were! E.g., "I will never leave you nor forsake you". You could assume that it's true, and, for you, it might as well be true. Besides, how could you tell if it wasn't? If God either "left" you or "forsook" you, what would be different? Would you feel different? Would bad things happen to you or your loved ones? Would you feel discouraged, now and then? :dunno

[Timmy]

Well Michlow, I agree with you. The spirit of God does have a role in everyone's salvation. The argument you are making about the role of the spirit is coming from the bible. So I agree with you on the spirit's role but I think the bible is equally important. I understand your argument about making doctrine more important than spirit, the bible says that God is seeking worshippers to worship him in spirit and in truth. So to me both spirit and bible are important.

I also agree with you on Paul and sexism but, lots of people see those problems and interpret paul's sexism as cultural and not the instructions of God. Even Paul said some things were his own instruction and other things were God's instruction.

I'm not sure the bible claims to be the exact words of God. The bible says the scriptures are inspired by God. So that leaves some room for human input and human fallibility. So I think I agree with your view on alot but I think I value the scriptures a little more than you. hope we can be friends. :friend

So, are you saying that at least some of the Bible might not be quite what God wanted? That would explain everything! :lol

[ILG]

Hey, Mich, I understand where you're coming from. Just keep on seeking. :hug4

[Dedicated Mind]

OK, one more. Promises. Even though I already know the explanation, I have to say that the promises, since they are so hard to receive (that's part of the explanation -- there are conditions to be met), are virtually pointless. But beyond that, they are an immense source of frustration and despair for the people who try to follow the Bible. Sometimes it leads to depression, even suicide. Sometimes people (usually children) die, when they try to follow James' instructions, rather than go to a doctor.

But it's funny, some of the promises could also be said to be fulfilled no matter what actually happens. You can't really tell if they were or not, so anyone who chooses to can say that they were! E.g., "I will never leave you nor forsake you". You could assume that it's true, and, for you, it might as well be true. Besides, how could you tell if it wasn't? If God either "left" you or "forsook" you, what would be different? Would you feel different? Would bad things happen to you or your loved ones? Would you feel discouraged, now and then? :dunno

Timmy, I too have frustration with promises concerning healing. I have a daughter who was born disabled and it was a source of great anguish. But promises like "I will never leave you" are actually a source of great comfort, especially when you are backslidden. I share your disappointment but I think the scriptures are one of the greatest comforts in the world to millions of people. Think of all the good that has come from them.

[ILG]

So, it looks like the scriptures are both a source of comfort and pain.

[Dedicated Mind]

So, are you saying that at least some of the Bible might not be quite what God wanted? That would explain everything! :lol

Well not all of Scripture is "thus saith the Lord". There are very few actual quotes from God himself. II Tim 3:16 says all scripture is inspired of God. So I do see room for human input like Paul's instructions concerning women for example. David K Bernard has a great book called, "God's Infallible Word". I need to reread it, but I remember it mentioning that no other book exhorts people to be good people like the bible and its' command to love thy neighbor. The argument was that if the bible exhorts people to be good then it is more likely that it is from a good God, or something like that.

[Timmy]

Well not all of Scripture is "thus saith the Lord". There are very few actual quotes from God himself. II Tim 3:16 says all scripture is inspired of God. So I do see room for human input like Paul's instructions concerning women for example. David K Bernard has a great book called, "God's Infallible Word". I need to reread it, but I remember it mentioning that no other book exhorts people to be good people like the bible and its' command to love thy neighbor. The argument was that if the bible exhorts people to be good then it is more likely that it is from a good God, or something like that.

2 Tim also says all scripture is profitable for doctrine, etc. So, would that include everything, even the parts that aren't "thus saith the Lord"? Even the human input? See also http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=29064 for discussion of fallible men writing what they may have believed was God-inspired, and fallible men copying it and preserving it pretty well (but not perfectly), and fallible men deciding which alleged inspired books were really inspired, and fallible men translating it into many languages and reading and interpreting it.

[Timmy]

And what about the parts of the Bible that do quote God? Are they all accurate transcripts of God's actual words? Did those folks have a better track record than folks today? (I don't know about you, but my hunch is that quite a large percentage of people who quote God today are wrong. OK, my hunch is it's 100%, but maybe your estimate isn't quite that high. ;))

[Timmy]

Well not all of Scripture is "thus saith the Lord". There are very few actual quotes from God himself. II Tim 3:16 says all scripture is inspired of God. So I do see room for human input like Paul's instructions concerning women for example. David K Bernard has a great book called, "God's Infallible Word". I need to reread it, but I remember it mentioning that no other book exhorts people to be good people like the bible and its' command to love thy neighbor. The argument was that if the bible exhorts people to be good then it is more likely that it is from a good God, or something like that.

Pretty poor argument, if you ask me. A lot of books exhort people to be good, but they don't claim to come from God. But when you reread that book, maybe you'll find a better argument. ;)

[Michlow]

So a new friend said to me yesterday: "Michelle, I need a favor...I need you to get on a spiritual kick so you can pray for me."

I laughed and said "I don't know. That's a pretty big favor!" :D

It was funny, because she stopped by my office, and a little while later another man (who my boss refers to as "church man" ), stopped by and we had an impromptu "church" meeting. Which mainly consisted of them trying to show me the error of my ways. But they were no match for my bible knowledge and snarkiness! LOL

Actually it was all in good fun, and we had an enjoyable and lively debate.

[Timmy]

The Lord works in mysterious ways! :lol

[luzsilver]

born into the ag, left at age 50.

what is ag??

[Timmy]

what is ag??

Assembly of God.

[mizpeh]

Assembly of God.

Have you read this, Timmy?

What are your thoughts about his experience?

[Timmy]

Have you read this, Timmy?

What are your thoughts about his experience?

Read what? Did you forget a link, or something?

[mizpeh]

Read what? Did you forget a link, or something?Whoops!

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/06/the-day-i-quit-believing-in-god/

[Timmy]

Whoops!

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/06/the-day-i-quit-believing-in-god/

Thanks. I'll have a look.

When you quoted my post mentioning the AofG, my hunch was that you were going to ask about Don't Call Me Brother (http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Call-Brother-Ringmasters-Pentecostal/dp/0879755075), by Austin Miles, which I have read. So, I was going to respond something like this:

"Yes, I read it a few years ago. It's the autobiographical story of an Assembly of God preacher who finds himself in the inner circle - rubbing elbows with the big wigs, including Jim Bakker and the General Superintendent of the AG at the time (Zimmerman). He is appalled by the corruption at all levels, and strong-arm tactics, blackmail, debauchery, etc. etc.

"The book is one side of the story, and it seems that the author takes great care not to admit much (if any) fault in the things that befall him. It's possible that his memory is somewhat selective! I don't know how many detailed accounts are true (some of them seem far-fetched, and a number of them have been disputed, not surprisingly), but overall, in the big picture, it rings true.

"Last I knew, Austin Miles had returned to Christianity and the ministry, but stands by the stories in his book."

But you didn't, so I won't. :lol

[Timmy]

Whoops!

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/06/the-day-i-quit-believing-in-god/

Amazing story! Very interesting. I have not heard of or experienced anything like that, before.

Seems odd, though, that he would think of this, when it was over (that reminds me, I need to get back into my exercise program!), as a test or a lesson of some kind from God. Even during his time as an "atheist", he prayed and pleaded with God. And if the lesson he had to learn was that he couldn't have faith unless God gave it to him, what does that say about people who don't have faith? To me, it says either God chooses not to bestow faith upon them (certain ones, as He sees fit -- His ways are not our ways, etc.), or they, for whatever reason, choose to say "No, thanks". There doesn't seem to be any allowance for us working out for ourselves what to believe. Weird.

Now, I'm heading over to the treadmill. I'll let you know if the extra blood flow triggers a return to faith. :thumbsup

[mizpeh]

Amazing story! Very interesting. I have not heard of or experienced anything like that, before.

Seems odd, though, that he would think of this, when it was over (that reminds me, I need to get back into my exercise program!), as a test or a lesson of some kind from God. Even during his time as an "atheist", he prayed and pleaded with God. And if the lesson he had to learn was that he couldn't have faith unless God gave it to him, what does that say about people who don't have faith? To me, it says either God chooses not to bestow faith upon them (certain ones, as He sees fit -- His ways are not our ways, etc.), or they, for whatever reason, choose to say "No, thanks". There doesn't seem to be any allowance for us working out for ourselves what to believe. Weird.

Now, I'm heading over to the treadmill. I'll let you know if the extra blood flow triggers a return to faith. :thumbsupHe's a Calvinist...so he fit the explanation of his loss of faith into his belief structure.

Personally, I think it was a lying spirit of some sort...a literal demonic spirit. After I had become a Christian and had experiences with God that convinced me that He was real and therefore the Bible was true, I constantly had to battle thoughts of unbelief. The same thoughts that had held me in blindness and hostage to atheism for years. I had to keep reminding myself of the things that God had done in showing himself to be real to me.

It may have been a test allowed by God. Afterall, everyone's faith is tested. But I think we've talked about this before in another thread. ;)

[Timmy]

. . .After I had become a Christian and had experiences with God that convinced me that He was real and therefore the Bible was true, . . .

How does it follow that the Bible is true, if God is real? What's to stop a Muslim from saying that God is real, therefore the Quran is true?

[Sam]

How does it follow that the Bible is true, if God is real? What's to stop a Muslim from saying that God is real, therefore the Quran is true?

We have a President who has quoted from "the Holy Quran" on occasion.

[Timmy]

. . .

Personally, I think it was a lying spirit of some sort...a literal demonic spirit. . . .

A demon can make you stop believing in God? :blink

[Timmy]

. . .
Now, I'm heading over to the treadmill. I'll let you know if the extra blood flow triggers a return to faith. :thumbsup

No luck, so far. Makes me hungry, though! :lol

[Michlow]

Amazing story! Very interesting. I have not heard of or experienced anything like that, before.

Seems odd, though, that he would think of this, when it was over (that reminds me, I need to get back into my exercise program!), as a test or a lesson of some kind from God. Even during his time as an "atheist", he prayed and pleaded with God. And if the lesson he had to learn was that he couldn't have faith unless God gave it to him, what does that say about people who don't have faith? To me, it says either God chooses not to bestow faith upon them (certain ones, as He sees fit -- His ways are not our ways, etc.), or they, for whatever reason, choose to say "No, thanks". There doesn't seem to be any allowance for us working out for ourselves what to believe. Weird.

Now, I'm heading over to the treadmill. I'll let you know if the extra blood flow triggers a return to faith. :thumbsup

Sorry I missed the activity on this thread...I was on a nice long vacation.

I had lunch with a friend right before I left (she is the only friend I have that is still Apostolic), and as I updated her as to my situation with my boyfriend, and told her that I had spent a lot of time praying about our relationship, and about specific prayers I felt God had answered.

She responded that God didn't answer those prayers, it was satan. Thoughts?

[Timmy]

Sorry I missed the activity on this thread...I was on a nice long vacation.

I had lunch with a friend right before I left (she is the only friend I have that is still Apostolic), and as I updated her as to my situation with my boyfriend, and told her that I had spent a lot of time praying about our relationship, and about specific prayers I felt God had answered.

She responded that God didn't answer those prayers, it was satan. Thoughts?

Thoughts? Yes, I have thoughts:

:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

[Michlow]

Thoughts? Yes, I have thoughts:

:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

Ok, but seriously for a moment...theologically speaking, can satan really answer prayers?

[Timmy]

Ok, but seriously for a moment...theologically speaking, can satan really answer prayers?

In Biblical theology, I can't think of a precedent. Maybe the Saul-and-the-Witch-of-Endor story has some application. Someone else will have to take this one. ;)

[Timmy]

But, it does seem to me that if you prayed to God, Satan would have no ability nor authority to step in and "answer". Seems to me. But I've been wrong before. :lol

[Baron1710]

But, it does seem to me that if you prayed to God, Satan would have no ability nor authority to step in and "answer". Seems to me. But I've been wrong before. :lol

I think the passage where Jesus says if your son asks for bread will you give him a stone fits here.

[Timmy]

I think the passage where Jesus says if your son asks for bread will you give him a stone fits here.

So, an atheist boyfriend is "bread"? :D

[Rev]

A demon can make you stop believing in God? :blink

Tim

Explanation please.

[Timmy]

Tim

Explanation please.

Did you read this story?

Whoops!

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/06/the-day-i-quit-believing-in-god/

Miz thinks a demon caused the man to stop believing in God.

. . .

Personally, I think it was a lying spirit of some sort...a literal demonic spirit. . . .

I find it hard to believe that a demon could do that. Especially considering that the man himself thinks the episode was a lesson from God.

[Rev]

Did you read this story?



Miz thinks a demon caused the man to stop believing in God.



I find it hard to believe that a demon could do that. Especially considering that the man himself thinks the episode was a lesson from God.


Just wondering about the thought process behind this.

[Timmy]

Just wondering about the thought process behind this.

Yep. So was I. Haven't heard back from Miz, though.

[mizpeh]

A demon can make you stop believing in God? :blinkA demon can't "make you" as in force you to stop believing in God but he can lie to you and cause you to doubt the word of God like he did to Eve in the garden. It's up to us to cast down every thought that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[mizpeh]

When I turned from atheism to thinking that maybe God does exist it was because of a supernatural experience I had.

When I started to seek the God of the Bible it was because of another supernatural experience I had.

I became a Christian from reading the gospels.

These experiences brought about a change in my mind, in the way I thought and looked at the world and existence. After becoming a Christian and having a wonderful experience from God when I was baptized in Jesus name and then I spoke in tongues when I received the baptism of the Spirit, I still had to fight thoughts of doubt. I could have a might experience of God's presence and glory one day and the next day thoughts would come to my mind denying the existence of God! Those thoughts originated and came from the enemy of my soul, not from my own mind. I would have to resist those thoughts by remembering the experiences I had from God, often. It was a battle raging in my mind. That's where the battlefield is.

And example of how Satan influences people is Ananias and Sapphira. Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? or Job's wife spoke the same similar words that Satan did to God. Coincidence? I don't think so.

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. 7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. 8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes. 9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. 10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

[Timmy]

A demon can't "make you" as in force you to stop believing in God but he can lie to you and cause you to doubt the word of God like he did to Eve in the garden. It's up to us to cast down every thought that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ. . . .

Thanks for clarifying. But I'm not sure the man's story quite fits. There didn't seem to be any lies sent his way for him to either believe or resist. He just suddenly stopped believing, involuntarily. Couldn't believe even if he wanted to -- and he did want to. He was distressed by this. His own "silver bullets" didn't even work on himself!

[Timmy]

When I turned from atheism to thinking that maybe God does exist it was because of a supernatural experience I had.

When I started to seek the God of the Bible it was because of another supernatural experience I had.

I became a Christian from reading the gospels.

. . . .

May I ask, when you were an atheist, did you separate the two concepts of God's existence and the Bible being God's word? It seems that a lot of atheists (and virtually all Christians!) don't do that. They look at the Bible and the descriptions there of God, and think "No way! That doesn't make any sense! So, God must not exist". Christians exhibit this in a little different way, of course: they think if you believe in God, you must therefore believe that the Bible is God's word. (I think I asked you or someone about that a few days ago, on this thread, if I recall.)

[mizpeh]

Thanks for clarifying. But I'm not sure the man's story quite fits. There didn't seem to be any lies sent his way for him to either believe or resist. He just suddenly stopped believing, involuntarily. Couldn't believe even if he wanted to -- and he did want to. He was distressed by this. His own "silver bullets" didn't even work on himself!I didn't want to think thoughts that God wasn't real, especially after I had had such powerful experiences of his presence, either.

[mizpeh]

May I ask, when you were an atheist, did you separate the two concepts of God's existence and the Bible being God's word? It seems that a lot of atheists (and virtually all Christians!) don't do that. They look at the Bible and the descriptions there of God, and think "No way! That doesn't make any sense! So, God must not exist". Christians exhibit this in a little different way, of course: they think if you believe in God, you must therefore believe that the Bible is God's word. (I think I asked you or someone about that a few days ago, on this thread, if I recall.)Wasn't me.

I don't recall ever reading the Bible before I became an atheist even though I attended a Catholic school up until 4th grade. I must have been exposed to the teachings in the Bible but I don't remember them at all.

I believe the Bible is God's word because God confirmed that it was his word by the spiritual things I experienced then and now.

[Timmy]

Wasn't me.

I don't recall ever reading the Bible before I became an atheist even though I attended a Catholic school up until 4th grade. I must have been exposed to the teachings in the Bible but I don't remember them at all.

I believe the Bible is God's word because God confirmed that it was his word by the spiritual things I experienced then and now.

I see, thanks.

[CaliTeacher74]

Michlow...are you saying that you DO NOT want to date someone who is a church-goer? I thought I was the only one! And I myself am a church-goer. I was raised in church, left in my late teens, and came back after my son was born in my early 20's. I have never been attracted to guys in my church, mainly because they can't think for themselves; "God told me this. God told me that." If I ever find a man in church, it would be because he is looking for a woman who isn't a "church-goer" as well.

[Timmy]

:popcorn2

[Michlow]

Michlow...are you saying that you DO NOT want to date someone who is a church-goer? I thought I was the only one! And I myself am a church-goer. I was raised in church, left in my late teens, and came back after my son was born in my early 20's. I have never been attracted to guys in my church, mainly because they can't think for themselves; "God told me this. God told me that." If I ever find a man in church, it would be because he is looking for a woman who isn't a "church-goer" as well.

I'm sorry I didn't see this until now!

I definitely do not want to date a church going man, as I myself am not a church goer. And I have no interest in someone being my "spiritual head", or trying to "fix me".

Timmy -

"satan" has apparently continued to intercept my prayers as they have continued being answered, and I am happier then I ever thought was possible. I'm stubborn though, so I'll continue to give the credit to God.

[Timmy]

I'm sorry I didn't see this until now!

I definitely do not want to date a church going man, as I myself am not a church goer. And I have no interest in someone being my "spiritual head", or trying to "fix me".

Timmy -

"satan" has apparently continued to intercept my prayers as they have continued being answered, and I am happier then I ever thought was possible. I'm stubborn though, so I'll continue to give the credit to God.

:lol