Holy Ghost 101: Bernard, Godwin, Borat, Kinzie

[DAII]

I stumbled across a "manual" in my wife's collection of books on how to receive the Holy Ghost ... "Handbook on Receiving the Holy Ghost" by Fred Kinzie.

http://www.ebmoneness.com/i/Salvation/1567222056.jpg

Got me to thinking if this indeed is an apostolic concept .... do we find examples of the apostles instructing how to be born from above (gennao anothen) as taught by the 3 stepper today? Is this methodology biblical .... Is this much in the way some slam the sinner's prayer among evangelicals?

What did Greg Godwin miss here before engaging Borat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTWJo7a9l0


Should he have followed David Bernard's prescription to receiving Holy Ghost baptism (from his book, The New Birth)?

He did tell Borat to repent? Is this biblical repentance as taught by the Apostles?

How to Receive the Holy Spirit excerpt ... by David Bernard

Since the baptism of the Holy Spirit is part of salvation and is available to us today, the Spirit is not difficult to receive. God promises His Spirit to all who ask (Luke 11:13), believe (John 7:38-39), and obey His Word (Acts 5:32). The seeker must have faith in God's promise, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

Peter promised the Spirit to All who would repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38). The example of the Samaritans shows that in the absence of complete faith, water baptism cannot automatically bring the Spirit. Moreover, the example of Cornelius shows that the Spirit can come before water baptism. The recipient must totally submit himself to God, willing to do anything God requires. At that point of complete submission and released faith, God pours out His Spirit. If the recipient has not been baptized in water in Jesus' name, he is commanded to do this as soon as possible.

Repentance is necessary. For the Holy Spirit to dwell in a life, that person must turn from sin and separate himself from spiritual uncleanliness (II Corinthians 6:16-7:1). Only God can make him righteous, but he must express a desire to turn from sin and receive pardon, ask for God's help in turning from sin, and surrender totally to God.

If someone will repent and have faith, God will give His Spirit, even though that person may have some false concepts in other areas, such as water baptism. In such cases, God grants His Spirit to lead the sincere person into further truth. God is not looking for reasons to deny the seeker, but He will give His Spirit to anyone who meets the conditions of repentance and faith as set forth in His Word.

If someone wants the baptism of the Holy Spirit, he should come to God with faith, believing His Word and expecting to receive the promise. He should repent from his sins by confessing them, asking pardon, pledging to do God's will (with His help), and totally surrendering to Him. He should determine in his mind that he wants God's Spirit that very day, regardless of what God may require of him in the future. After he repents and makes this total commitment, he should begin to praise God for hearing and answering prayer. Then, the Spirit will come in, take complete control, and inspire the seekers to speak in a language he has never learned. Often, the laying on of hands after repentance helps the seeker focus his faith at a point in time and receive the Spirit. This was a very common practice in the Early Church, although it was not a prerequisite for receiving the Spirit.

It is not wise to emphasize expectation and praise until the seeker has repented, for no matter how much he praises God he cannot receive the Spirit without repentance.

Receiving the Spirit is only as difficult as the seeker makes it. It takes only as much time as he needs to repent and surrender completely to God, which may be just a moment. Tarrying for long periods of time or seeking many times is not necessary. Those who do not receive the Spirit either lack faith to receive or have not fully repented and yielded every area of their lives to God. The 120 on the Day of Pentecost had to wait seven to ten days for the first outpouring, but since that time the Spirit has been freely available to all.

If people are taught how important it is to receive the Spirit baptism, how simple it really is to be filled with the Spirit, and how to prepare their hearts, they usually receive the Spirit easily. If the necessity of the Spirit baptism is taught many people will be filled. On the other hand, if the experience is merely presented as an optional blessing, most people will not. If repentance and faith are taught, most seekers will receive the Spirit in the water of baptism or when hands are laid upon them after repentance.

Young children, the elderly, the uneducated, the educated, the poor, and the rich all receive the Spirit. Buddhists and others from non-Christian backgrounds often receive the Spirit on their first visit to a Christian church. The accounts of Cornelius and the Ephesians both show that a person can receive the Spirit instantly, at the moment he repents and believes.

[Rose]

Fred Kinzie (Toledo, OH) was my Pastor in the 70's & early 80's... a faithful man of God... passed away in 2009 at the age of 95.

[allstate1]

DAII thanks for sharing this video! There is a man in the crowd at about 2:21 who was a great friend of mine and was killed on his job since!

[Jeffrey]

So crazy to watch that again. Unbelievable.

[Melody]

and had they refused?
do we authenicate now?

[rgcraig]

and had they refused?
do we authenicate now?

They who?

Refused what?

[SteppingStone]

Was that real?? Man some of it looks shopped in..:eek::confused:

[allstate1]

Was that real?? Man some of it looks shopped in..:eek::confused:

Yea it was real however Borat was a fake! Google him and you will see.

[rgcraig]

Was that real?? Man some of it looks shopped in..:eek::confused:

Oh, very real. Have you not heard about this?

[SteppingStone]

Yea it was real however Borat was a fake! Google him and you will see.

Meaning "Shopped in" or added to the video?

Oh, very real. Have you not heard about this?

Nope..

[rgcraig]

Meaning "Shopped in" or added to the video?



Nope..

Very real.

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/issues/borat.html

[SteppingStone]

Very real.

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/issues/borat.html

Wow and like that one person said, where was the discernment of spirits?

[Timmy]

Wow and like that one person said, where was the discernment of spirits?

Well, somes got it, and somes ain't got it!

[allstate1]

And Timmy gave away his gifts!! Indian giver!!!! LOL

[Pressing-On]

Wow and like that one person said, where was the discernment of spirits?

I wonder if any of us have considered that we do not know Borat's heart and we do not know what he was feeling while he was in that service. I'm not so sure that God would have stopped that for his sake. He may have possibly been torn between his feelings and his actually needing to get that movie off the ground. Sometimes God doesn't tell us everything and He doesn't always stop everything for the sake of ALL involved. Many times, because we are not God, we don't understand everything.

I remember a girl that we baptized years ago. Her boyfriend was present and she reached out her hand and said, "Let's do this together." Of course, we explained to her that it was an individual thing with God. She appeared to be going through the motions, but we baptized her because she said she wanted to be baptized. When she came out of the water, she had stammering lips. She was so shocked and surprised that she put her hand over her lips to stop it, then she got out of the water and left. God knew her heart. He knew that she needed to know that He was indeed real. Don't know where she is today, but I can guess she has never forgotten that day. She left for California the next morning, hitch hiking.

[Elizabeth]

I agree with what Pressing is saying, how can you judge his sincerity? I have never personally came across anyone coming to the alter just to mock and pretend to repent.

However- if my memory serves correctly the preacher in the segment did pick up on something not being quite right with Borat and confronted him--the clip cuts away before that.

We discussed this at quite some length when it was shown in the theaters, many knew the camp meeting and the camp meeting speaker and shared details that happened behind the scenes that this video does not include-

It's funny because the opening scene with him laying/sitting on the cement in front of the supposed doors of the camp meeting is so fake, the people are passing him by just looking at him. For one they do not look at all like the people at the camp meeting, and secondly I know most pentecostal people especially at camp meeting would so friendly trying to reach out to the poor guy he would have had a small crowd around him and nothing like what was shown.

[SteppingStone]

It's funny because the opening scene with him laying/sitting on the cement in front of the supposed doors of the camp meeting is so fake, the people are passing him by just looking at him. For one they do not look at all like the people at the camp meeting, and secondly I know most pentecostal people especially at camp meeting would so friendly trying to reach out to the poor guy he would have had a small crowd around him and nothing like what was shown.

That's why I originally asked if it was "Shopped" (Altered.)

[Timmy]

That's why I originally asked if it was "Shopped" (Altered.)

Edited, for sure. But it wasn't a cut-n-paste type thing, like Forrest Gump meeting JFK.

[NotforSale]

Greg in his full blown antics. This man has been abusive, mean, and very critical when he preaches. If it ain't loud enough, he harasses the sound booth, needing enough volume to destroy people's eardrums.

His dramatics kept him out of many good churches in the District I was in. Maybe Greg has calmed down, but in the past, when he was invited to preach a revival at our Church, I stayed home.

This video doesn't surprise me one bit. This is exactly the kind of thing that would happen in our services. This also shows, the UPCI is in grave error by accepting this kind of behavior as "God". In fact, I was shocked how people would just continue to amen this guy.

[Margies3]

Fred Kinzie (Toledo, OH) was my Pastor in the 70's & early 80's... a faithful man of God... passed away in 2009 at the age of 95.

Rose, do I know you? I went to FAC for one year in the late 60's, then changed over to Antioch Apostolic Church where Paul Dennis was our pastor. Went there from about '69-'76. (then I moved to Pontiac under Roy Well, then to Owosso where Harold Roberts pastored).

[jfrog]

I never realized the church in Borat was a UPC one.

[Rose]

Rose, do I know you? I went to FAC for one year in the late 60's, then changed over to Antioch Apostolic Church where Paul Dennis was our pastor. Went there from about '69-'76. (then I moved to Pontiac under Roy Well, then to Owosso where Harold Roberts pastored).

No, we don't know each other. I was at FAC in late 70's and early 80's. I am now in KY.

[Mirth1981]

This video doesn't surprise me one bit. This is exactly the kind of thing that would happen in our services. This also shows, the UPCI is in grave error by accepting this kind of behavior as "God". In fact, I was shocked how people would just continue to amen this guy.

Yeah, I would agree it's a very accurate portrayal, and exactly the type of thing that happens in the UPC. I've seen the video clip several times, and everytime I'm absolutely disgusted. What a mockery...and not just by Borat, either.

[Jack Shephard]

Wow and like that one person said, where was the discernment of spirits?

Dicernment of Spirits isn't available when gulibility is building

[Apocrypha]

It was MS camp a few years ago

[Timmy]

Dicernment of Spirits isn't available when gulibility is building

Has gullibility ever not been in a building? ;)

[pelathais]

I never realized the church in Borat was a UPC one.

He seems to have tried several venues but the final edit was perhaps the "best" of them. In the scene before the service starts where he "wakes up" from his miserable night at a camp fire, he is not at the entrance of the Mississippi UPC camp ground. Watch the people going in.

The next cut of him "inside" is the Mississippi camp meeting.

Later, on the bus where he is singing and dancing with a bus load apparently of all women, they are not UPC looking ladies.

The edit makes it look like all three sequences involved the same church group, but they are clearly different settings. Who knows what situations were captured on film but never made the final release.

The "tongues talking" and all of that was right from the UPC camp meeting, however. The whole "Mr. Jesus" and "my Pamela did something terrible on a boat..." was part of the altar call and service.

Funny as it seems, I've actually been to stranger camp meetings and services.

[pelathais]

Has gullibility ever not been in a building? ;)

C'mon, Tim-Tim. Can you imagine the scene of this unfortunate wretch had been rejected by and turned out of the camp?

What's sad is that from now on most UPCers won't be as readily accepting of such people and will always be suspicious of "outsiders" and such.

We really do make ourselves vulnerable when we preach the Gospel. This vulnerability might be tempered with a bit more wisdom on our part. For example, if we stopped making ridiculous and incredible claims we probably wouldn't be the target of so many scammers like "Borat" and company.

Sadly, Bro. Godwin's whole spiel ("I ain't no monkey... I is what I is..." and all of that) sets the stage for Borat's own deception and con game. If we approached the Gospel message with a better perspective and a more educated and balanced view of reality, we might even end up winning some of the knotheads who lampoon us every day.

[Pressing-On]

C'mon, Tim-Tim. Can you imagine the scene of this unfortunate wretch had been rejected by and turned out of the camp?

What's sad is that from now on most UPCers won't be as readily accepting of such people and will always be suspicious of "outsiders" and such.

We really do make ourselves vulnerable when we preach the Gospel. This vulnerability might be tempered with a bit more wisdom on our part. For example, if we stopped making ridiculous and incredible claims we probably wouldn't be the target of so many scammers like "Borat" and company.

Sadly, Bro. Godwin's whole spiel ("I ain't no monkey... I is what I is..." and all of that) sets the stage for Borat's own deception and con game. If we approached the Gospel message with a better perspective and a more educated and balanced view of reality, we might even end up winning some of the knotheads who lampoon us every day.

Again, I think that people will always have compassion on people like Borat and, even though they may have been scammed, we still don't know what God was able to do in his life, regardless of what the clip looked like.

Remember the guy that wrote, "They Spoke in Tongues"? He set out to disprove tongues and found out he was wrong. He never did receive the Holy Ghost, but he did find out his view was not correct.

I would have to believe that God would not allow Borat to not feel the sincerity of His presence in that place. I believe it would be totally disingenuous, regardless of bitter feelings toward the UPC, to say that there was not a majority of sincere people in attendance.

Being that we do not know the condition of Borat's heart, we cannot and will not ever fully know what he may have truly felt or experienced during his escapade. I have larger expectations of God.

[deltaguitar]

I grew up going to camp meeting there and to the youth camps. Crowd looks a lot smaller now than it did back in the day. Poor Jason Dillon was right in the middle of it all.

But yeah, the clip actually makes them look better than many services I have seen.

[Sam]

...
Remember the guy that wrote, "They Spoke in Tongues"? He set out to disprove tongues and found out he was wrong. He never did receive the Holy Ghost, but he did find out his view was not correct.
...


I think you are referencing John Sherrill who wrote "They Speak With Other Tongues" which was copyrighted in 1964. He was skeptical but investigated the phenomena for an article on the subject which later turned out to be a book. He did receive the Holy Ghost Baptism in December 1960 while attending a FGBMFI meeting in Atlantic City.

It happened in room 405 of a hotel where he and others had gathered for some sandwiches, fellowship, worship and prayer. This is how he describes it on pages 155-160 of the book.

in 405 there was a certain air of expectancy. There were six of us now, seated in a casual circle about the room....

Partly in an effort to overcome self-consciousness, I shut my eyes. Soon I'd lost track of who was talking in the room. Someone began to pray in the Spirit. It was a woman's voice, but I did not know whose....

Now someone else began to pray in tongues. Another started to sing very softly in the Spirit. I felt my throat tighten... I suppose I was crying, deeply, silently...

There was a lull in the praying and singing. The voices around me receded into a quiet murmur.

"A man's voice: "I believe John wants the baptism in the Spirit."

I felt, more than saw, the five people rise and form a circle around me....

The group moved closer around me. It was almost as if they were forming with their bodies a funnel through which was concentrated the flow of the Spirit that was pulsating through the room. It flowed into me as I sat there, listening to the Spirit-song around me. Now the tongues swelled to a crescendo, musical and lovely. I opened my mouth, wondering if I too could join in, but nothing happened.

I felt a numbness in my lips and a constriction in my throat.

And suddenly I had the impression that in order to speak in tongues I had only to look up. But this was a joyful gesture. All my training and inclination was to approach God with head bowed.

Strange that such a simple gesture as lifting the head should become a battleground. And soon --perhaps because I did no obey quick enough-- another directive came clear: not only was I to lift my head but I was to lift my hands too, and I was to cry out with all the feeling in me a great shout of praise to God. A hot, angry flush rose and flooded me. It was the thing above all things that I didn't want to do.

Perhaps because it was so very repugnant to me, the issue was clearly drawn as one of sheer obedience.

What other possible significance could there be in my raising my hands high and mouthing some words of praise? But that was what I had to do, and I knew it. Foolish as it seemed. Or maybe because it seemed foolish. I heard E. Stanley Jones saying, "I had to become God's fool."

With a sudden burst of will I thrust my hands into the air, turned my face full upward, and at the top of my voice I shouted: "Praise the Lord!"

It was the floodgate opened. From deep inside me, deeper than I knew voice could go, came a torrent of joyful sound. It was not beautiful, like the tongues around me. I had the impression that it was ugly: explosive and grunting. I didn't care. It was healing, it was forgiveness, it was love too deep for words and it burst from me in wordless sound. After that one shattering effort of my will, my will was released, freed to soar into union with Him. No further conscious effort was required of me at all, not even choosing the syllables with which to express my joy. The syllables were all there, ready-formed for my use, more abundant than my earthbound lips and tongue could give shape to.

It was not that I felt out of control of the situation: I had never felt more truly masterful of myself, more integrated and at peace with warring factions inside myself. I could stop the languages at any instant, but who would? I wanted them to never stop. And so I prayed on, laughing and free, while the setting sun shone through the window and the stars came out.

[Pressing-On]

I think you are referencing John Sherrill who wrote "They Speak With Other Tongues" which was copyrighted in 1964. He was skeptical but investigated the phenomena for an article on the subject which later turned out to be a book. He did receive the Holy Ghost Baptism in December 1960 while attending a FGBMFI meeting in Atlantic City.

It happened in room 405 of a hotel where he and others had gathered for some sandwiches, fellowship, worship and prayer. This is how he describes it on pages 155-160 of the book.

in 405 there was a certain air of expectancy. There were six of us now, seated in a casual circle about the room....

Partly in an effort to overcome self-consciousness, I shut my eyes. Soon I'd lost track of who was talking in the room. Someone began to pray in the Spirit. It was a woman's voice, but I did not know whose....

Now someone else began to pray in tongues. Another started to sing very softly in the Spirit. I felt my throat tighten... I suppose I was crying, deeply, silently...

There ws a lull in the praying and singing. The voices around me receded int a quiet murmur.

"A man's voice: "I believe John wants the baptism in the Spirit."

I felt, more than saw, the five people rise and form a circle around me....

The group moved closer around me. It was almost as if they were forming with their bodies a funnel through which was concentrated the flow of the Spirit that was pulsating through the room. It flowed into me as I sat there, listening to the Spirit-song around me. Now the tongues swelled to a crescendo, musical and lovely. I opened my mouth, wondering if I too could join in, but nothing happened.

I felt a numbness in my lips and a constriction in my throat.

And suddenly I had the impression that in order to speak in tongues I had only to look up. But this was a joyful gesture. All my training and inclination was to approach God with head bowed.

Strange that such a simple gesture as lifting the head should become a battleground.And soon --perhaps because I did no obey quick enough-- another directive came clear: not only was I to lift my head but I was to lift my hands too, and I was to cry out with all the feeling in me a great shout of praise to God. a hot, angry flush rose and flooded me. It was the thing above all things that I didn't want to do.

Perhaps because it was so very repugnant to me, the issue was clearly drawn as one or sheer obedience.

What other possible significance could there be in my raising my hands high and mouthing some words of praise? But that was what I had to do, and I knew it. Foolish as it seemed. Or maybe because it seemed foolish. I heard E. Stanley Jones saying, "I had to become God's fool."

With a sudden burst of will I thrust my hands into the air, turned my face full upward, and at the top of my voice I shouted: "Praise the Lord!"

It was the the floodgate opened. From deep inside me, deeper than I knew voice could go, came a torrent of joyful sound. It was not beautiful, like the tongues around me. I had the impression that it was ugly: explosive and grunting. I didn't care. It was healing, it was forgiveness, it was love too deep for words and it burst from me in wordless sound. After that one shattering effort of my will, my will was released, freed to soar into union with Him. No further conscious effort was required of me at all, not even choosing the syllables with which to express my joy. The syllables were all there, ready-formed for my use, more abundant than my earthbound lips and tongue could give shape to.

It was not that I felt out of control of the situation: I had never felt more truly masterful of myself, more integrated and at peace with warring factions inside myself. I could stop the languages at any instant, but who would? I wanted them to never stop. And so I prayed on, laughing and free, wile the setting sun shone through the window and the stars came out.

You are right on the title and author. I didn't verify it before I typed it out.

I do remember reading that exact excerpt.

Now, what was it, at the end of the book, that gave me the impression that he walked away? Or was something I read on the back cover, perhaps?

[rgcraig]

Again, I think that people will always have compassion on people like Borat and, even though they may have been scammed, we still don't know what God was able to do in his life, regardless of what the clip looked like.

Remember the guy that wrote, "They Spoke in Tongues"? He set out to disprove tongues and found out he was wrong. He never did receive the Holy Ghost, but he did find out his view was not correct.

I would have to believe that God would not allow Borat to not feel the sincerity of His presence in that place. I believe it would be totally disingenuous, regardless of bitter feelings toward the UPC, to say that there was not a majority of sincere people in attendance.

Being that we do not know the condition of Borat's heart, we cannot and will not ever fully know what he may have truly felt or experienced during his escapade. I have larger expectations of God.I keep reading this and not sure I can connect God to it in anyway.

What Borat did was basically blaspheming, so I'm not sure I'd expect God to do anything.

[Pressing-On]

I keep reading this and not sure I can connect God to it in anyway.

What Borat did was basically blaspheming, so I'm not sure I'd expect God to do anything.

He may have been blaspheming, but he may have been doing what he did out of ignorance not knowing the Word of God fully. Not knowing the Word of God at all. I don't know him or his background. God will be the judge. I have no idea. I just know that if he did that out of ignorance, I believe that God allowed him to know or feel something during his escapade.

I wrote earlier about a girl we baptized that wasn't really quite serious about it. She came out of the water with stammering lips. I mean, noticeable stammering lips. It scared and shocked her. She put her hands to her mouth to try and make it stop. All I can think is that God knew her heart and even if she did that out of ignorance or making fun of what we were doing, God was present and showed her He was real.

That is how I view the Borat thing. If God watches every sparrow that falls and clothes the lilies of the field, He is watching every heart and every motive. I'm not going to be ready to discount that Borat didn't learn or feel something there.

[seekerman]

One thing Borat could have learned is that the carrying on of the folks trying to make him 'get' the Holy Ghost isn't found in scripture. If he left there, read the bible through and through, he'd never find such activity or actions by those who received the Holy Ghost in the early church.

Notice, it was basically about all about tongues. Without tongues, there is no redemption in OP salvation theology. Screaming "let that tongue go"!! over and over. Simply amazing and sad at the same time.

Sadder still is that Borat was still hell bound even if he had fulfilled the requirement of tongues the preachers were so desperately seeking for him. He had not yet had His sins remitted by correct baptism and thus would have been nothing more, at that moment, than a Holy Ghost filled, Spirit born...child of satan?

[Pressing-On]

One thing Borat could have learned is that the carrying on of the folks trying to make him 'get' the Holy Ghost isn't found in scripture. If he left there, read the bible through and through, he'd never find such activity or actions by those who received the Holy Ghost in the early church.

Notice, it was basically about all about tongues. Without tongues, there is no redemption in OP salvation theology. Screaming "let that tongue go"!! over and over. Simply amazing and sad at the same time.

Sadder still is that Borat was still hell bound even if he had fulfilled the requirement of tongues the preachers were so desperately seeking for him. He had not yet had His sins remitted by correct baptism and thus would have been nothing more, at that moment, than a Holy Ghost filled, Spirit born...child of satan?

I cannot disagree that, for the larger part, we jump too quickly away from true repentance and the importance of baptism to speaking in tongues. You have no stability if you do not begin with true repentance.

[Sam]

I keep reading this and not sure I can connect God to it in anyway.

What Borat did was basically blaspheming, so I'm not sure I'd expect God to do anything.

The apostle Paul said that he was once a blasphemer but he obtained mercy because he did it in ignorance (1 Timothy 1:13). God is a lot more patient and merciful than we are. We don't really know what He is trying to do in Borat's life or what He will do if Borat allows Him to.

[rgcraig]

I cannot disagree that, for the larger part, we jump too quickly away from true repentance and the importance of baptism to speaking in tongues. You have no stability if you do not begin with true repentance.
Couldn't agree more!

[Pressing-On]

Couldn't agree more!
Can you agree that you don't know if Borat was doing what he did in ignorance or that he was, in fact, blaspheming? LOL! For me, I don't know.

[Pressing-On]

The apostle Paul said that he was once a blasphemer but he obtained mercy because he did it in ignorance (1 Timothy 1:13). God is a lot more patient and merciful than we are. We don't really know what He is trying to do in Borat's life or what He will do if Borat allows Him to.

Good post, I agree! :thumbsup

[seekerman]

I wouldn't strictly call it blaspheming, but the stuff the preachers were doing with Borat wasn't close to being scriptural.

How many places did the preacher scream at the individual "LET THAT TONGUE GO!!!!" over and over? :)

[rgcraig]

Can you agree that you don't know if Borat was doing what he did in ignorance or that he was, in fact, blaspheming? LOL! For me, I don't know.

First, let me ask - did you see the movie?

[Pressing-On]

First, let me ask - did you see the movie?

No, what difference could that make? I still wouldn't know his heart. He could be foolish and ignorant trying to make money. He could have done that to poke fun at Christianity because he's seen stupid stuff on TBN, etc.

Saul was dragging people out of their homes out of ignorance. God saw his heart, sincere for the law that he believed in with his life. He turned that around and used him to a mighty degree.

[pelathais]

I wouldn't strictly call it blaspheming, but the stuff the preachers were doing with Borat wasn't close to being scriptural.

How many places did the preacher scream at the individual "LET THAT TONGUE GO!!!!" over and over? :)

Nothing comes up in my Bible search of over 20+ translations. Do you have the exact wording correct here?

[Pressing-On]

I wouldn't strictly call it blaspheming, but the stuff the preachers were doing with Borat wasn't close to being scriptural.

How many places did the preacher scream at the individual "LET THAT TONGUE GO!!!!" over and over? :)

That's not exactly true. Act 8:17 "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

So, not everything they were doing was unscriptural. He openly repented, in ignorance or scamming, he still repented out loud. They laid hands on him that he might receive the Holy Ghost.

[seekerman]

Nothing comes up in my Bible search of over 20+ translations. Do you have the exact wording correct here?

I think it's the NOPV translation. :)

[rgcraig]

That's not exactly true. Act 8:17 "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

So, not everything they were doing was unscriptural. He openly repented, in ignorance or scamming, he still repented out loud. They laid hands on him that he might receive the Holy Ghost.

So just repeating, "forgive me" is true repentance? So, you believe in the sinners prayer too?

[seekerman]

That's not exactly true. Act 8:17 "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

So, not everything they were doing was unscriptural. He openly repented, in ignorance or scamming, he still repented out loud. They laid hands on him that he might receive the Holy Ghost.

They laid their hands on them while screaming "LET THAT TONGUE GO"???

[Pressing-On]

So just repeating, "forgive me" is true repentance?

Does it need to be harder? He didn't repeat a sinner's prayer. I am remembering Charles Grisham talking to a lady in his church. She didn't think the person got saved even after he spoke in tongues. Grisham asked her, "Why not? What did you want him to do?" She said, "I like them to cry a little bit." :toofunny :toofunny :smack

[Pressing-On]

They laid their hands on them while screaming "LET THAT TONGUE GO"???
LOL! Well, part of it was scriptural. They laid hands on him. LOL!

[rgcraig]

Does it need to be harder? I am remembering Charles Grisham talking to a lady in his church. She didn't think the person got saved even after he spoke in tongues. Grisham asked her, "Why not? What did you want him to do?" She said, "I like them to cry a little bit." :toofunny :toofunny :smack

Well, I believe the repentance needs to be sincere. And you can fuss all day long about this, but he wasn't sincere when he repeated what they told him to say.

[seekerman]

LOL! Well, part of it was scriptural. They laid hands on him. LOL!

:)

As an aside, nothing to do with the thread...but. Can anyone be anything other than a proud grandparent? :)

[Pressing-On]

:)

As an aside, nothing to do with the thread...but. Can anyone be anything other than a proud grandparent? :)
That boy is going to be spoiled - beyond - rotten!! LOL!

[seekerman]

That boy is going to be spoiled - beyond - rotten!! LOL!

That's our job, press...that's our job. :)

[Pressing-On]

Well, I believe the repentance needs to be sincere. And you can fuss all day long about this, but he wasn't sincere when he repeated what they told him to say.

You don't really know and neither do I. We simply do not know what he felt. Being around a group of strangers, for the purpose he came for, I couldn't see him slobbering all over the place. Someone like that, even though they feel something, is probably still a bit confused as to what they want to believe or how they want to truly respond. I could see him going through the tongues think and falling down to get the deal over with. Or he may have fallen, partly, because he did feel something. I had my niece do that at our church in Austin. She came because her mother was there and ended up being slain in the spirit.

[Pressing-On]

That's our job, press...that's our job. :)

Thanks, since permission has been granted - I will comply!! :thumbsup LOL!

Gotta run!! Enjoyed the conversation!

[rgcraig]

You don't really know and neither do I. We simply do not know what he felt. Being around a group of strangers, for the purpose he came for, I couldn't see him slobbering all over the place. Someone like that, even though they feel something, is probably still a bit confused as to what they want to believe or how they want to truly respond. I could see him going through the tongues think and falling down to get the deal over with. Or he may have fallen, partly, because he did feel something. I had my niece do that at our church in Austin. She came because her mother was there and ended up being slain in the spirit.Okay. Whatever you want to believe.

[Timmy]

Okay. Whatever you want to believe.

But she's wrong? You know that Borat wasn't sincere?

[rgcraig]

But she's wrong? You know that Borat wasn't sincere?

She can be just as wrong as I could be right.

So, PO will believe he could be sincere and I can believe there's no way he was. At least, I have seen the movie to draw my own conclusion.

[Pressing-On]

Okay. Whatever you want to believe.

Girl! And you call me stubborn!!! :toofunny

I have to run, argue with you later!!!! :friend

[rgcraig]

Girl! And you call me stubborn!!! :toofunny

I have to run, argue with you later!!!! :friend

That's why I'm crying uncle - because I know how stubborn you are, so whatever.......:bliss

[seekerman]

Sincere or not, Borat is still going to hell because he never had another man perform the baptismal ritual correctly on His behalf thus the blood of the Lamb has never been applied to his life.

Maybe he did "let that tongue go", but he wasn't a born again child of God at that moment. At best he was just a Holy Ghost filled child of............satan?

[Pressing-On]

She can be just as wrong as I could be right.

So, PO will believe he could be sincere and I can believe there's no way he was. At least, I have seen the movie to draw my own conclusion.

I wouldn't have seen it, I don't watch rated R movies. :D

[Timmy]

She can be just as wrong as I could be right.

So, PO will believe he could be sincere and I can believe there's no way he was. At least, I have seen the movie to draw my own conclusion.

For what it's worth, and since PO's gone, I agree with you! :toofunny

[Pressing-On]

That's why I'm crying uncle - because I know how stubborn you are, so whatever.......:bliss
WORD!

:bliss

[Pressing-On]

For what it's worth, and since PO's gone, I agree with you! :toofunny
I'm not gone and I read that!!! :smack :toofunny

[Timmy]

I'm not gone and I read that!!! :smack :toofunny

:couch

[rgcraig]

I wouldn't have seen it, I don't watch rated R movies. :D

The clip was here and it wasn't the "r" part of the movie, however, it was pretty revolting!

[seekerman]

I wouldn't have seen it, I don't watch rated R movies. :D

My advice is never to rent it and watch it. You'll never get the wrestling scene completely out of your mind.

:banghead

[rgcraig]

My advice is never to rent it and watch it. You'll never get the wrestling scene completely out of your mind.

For real and I think we know he wasn't "sincere" in that scene either.

[rgcraig]

Wow - - I think they have a point here:

"Other targets are not so fair, as when Borat interrupts a Pentecostal service, just as the sacred gift of tongues is descending on them. Truly this film is the sin against the Holy Ghost. It also reveals just how cowardly the film makers are. They would not have dared to film and ridicule Kazakh Muslims in prayer with their foreheads on the ground and their arses in the air, because it would have led to violence and even murder, not by the Kazakhs themselves, who are far from being fanatics, but by Arabs, Somalis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, all willing to kill to avenge a slight to the honour of the Prophet. They would probably also have used Baron Cohen's Jewishness as an excuse for some anti-Semitic outrage. They are like that.

The Pentecostals by contrast are peaceable folk, many of them are even pacifists, a doctrine unique to Protestants and Hindus. Have you ever heard of a Muslim pacifist? Or come to that of a Roman Catholic or Greek or Russian Orthodox one? No, the cowardly film makers stick to soft targets. They would not have dared to interrupt a Roman Catholic service at the moment of the elevation of what people like them call the magic biscuit. The Roman Catholic church is a powerful corporation that can exercise great censorship (look what happened in Britain to the TV series Popetown. Twentieth Century Fox would never have been willing to stand up to all the boycotts and picketing that would have ensued. Hollywood has never escaped from the stranglehold of the heirs of the Catholic Legion of Decency. So the cowardly bas*** stick to the Pentecostals; they are a humble and powerless people whom it is safe to kick."

http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001388.php

[pelathais]

My advice is never to rent it and watch it. You'll never get the wrestling scene completely out of your mind.

:banghead

There's a wrassling scene? Borat takes on the WWE?

[Pressing-On]

Wow - - I think they have a point here:

"Other targets are not so fair, as when Borat interrupts a Pentecostal service, just as the sacred gift of tongues is descending on them. Truly this film is the sin against the Holy Ghost. It also reveals just how cowardly the film makers are. They would not have dared to film and ridicule Kazakh Muslims in prayer with their foreheads on the ground and their arses in the air, because it would have led to violence and even murder, not by the Kazakhs themselves, who are far from being fanatics, but by Arabs, Somalis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, all willing to kill to avenge a slight to the honour of the Prophet. They would probably also have used Baron Cohen's Jewishness as an excuse for some anti-Semitic outrage. They are like that.

The Pentecostals by contrast are peaceable folk, many of them are even pacifists, a doctrine unique to Protestants and Hindus. Have you ever heard of a Muslim pacifist? Or come to that of a Roman Catholic or Greek or Russian Orthodox one? No, the cowardly film makers stick to soft targets. They would not have dared to interrupt a Roman Catholic service at the moment of the elevation of what people like them call the magic biscuit. The Roman Catholic church is a powerful corporation that can exercise great censorship (look what happened in Britain to the TV series Popetown. Twentieth Century Fox would never have been willing to stand up to all the boycotts and picketing that would have ensued. Hollywood has never escaped from the stranglehold of the heirs of the Catholic Legion of Decency. So the cowardly bas*** stick to the Pentecostals; they are a humble and powerless people whom it is safe to kick."

http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001388.php

I don't think ignorance can always be called blasphemous. If the film makers knew which group to target, the Pentecostals because they are humble people, in order to pull of their film, that doesn't mean they are cowardly. It just means they were smart in their carnality. And doesn't the part about being more humble and powerless (not in the sense of powerless with God) speak for why they didn't question Borat's motives, sincerely believing that God can do anything? I believe He can do anything, even if someone tries to scam me.

All it means, for me, is that Borat and the filmmakers are ignorant of the truth pertaining to God and have a bad impression of Christianity. I can see that they would, so did Saul.

I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt - carnal and not, necessarily, blasphemous.

How many people have we been around that make fun of how someone worships? We've read about it on this forum. Same thing, IMO. Borat is copying what he has seen just like others, in church, have done. Is that also blasphemy?

[rgcraig]

I don't think ignorance can always be called blasphemous. If the film makers knew which group to target, the Pentecostals because they are humble people, in order to pull of their film, that doesn't mean they are cowardly. It just means they were smart in their carnality. And doesn't the part about being more humble and powerless (not in the sense of powerless with God) speak for why they didn't question Borat's motives, sincerely believing that God can do anything? I believe He can do anything, even if someone tries to scam me.

All it means, for me, is that Borat and the filmmakers are ignorant of the truth pertaining to God and have a bad impression of Christianity. I can see that they would, so did Saul.

I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt - carnal and not, necessarily, blasphemous.

How many people have we been around that make fun of how someone worships? We've read about it on this forum. Same thing, IMO. Borat is copying what he has seen just like others, in church, have done. Is that also blasphemy?

Guess it just depends on how you define blasphemy.

[Pressing-On]

Guess it just depends on how you define blasphemy.
I agree. So, I think blasphemy is evil speaking, railing or vilification (impious toward God).

I just think that you can't be ignorant of what you are doing, you have to willing know you are against it. That is why I use Saul in this case. He believed so much in the Jewish faith, he hated the Christians.

Not so sure I would call Borat's actions blasphemy. Ignorance maybe, especially, since they are saying he is Jewish, who probably wouldn't even check to see if he were wrong about the Christian faith he came to film.

Saul wouldn't have stopped unless God had stopped him. And I think God only stopped him because he knew that, in his heart, he would give his very life for truth, which he did.

Hopefully, somewhere down the line, God will also get a hold of Borat. Maybe he will put out a better film. LOL!

[Hoovie]

Wow - - I think they have a point here:

"Other targets are not so fair, as when Borat interrupts a Pentecostal service, just as the sacred gift of tongues is descending on them. Truly this film is the sin against the Holy Ghost. It also reveals just how cowardly the film makers are. They would not have dared to film and ridicule Kazakh Muslims in prayer with their foreheads on the ground and their arses in the air, because it would have led to violence and even murder, not by the Kazakhs themselves, who are far from being fanatics, but by Arabs, Somalis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, all willing to kill to avenge a slight to the honour of the Prophet. They would probably also have used Baron Cohen's Jewishness as an excuse for some anti-Semitic outrage. They are like that.

The Pentecostals by contrast are peaceable folk, many of them are even pacifists, a doctrine unique to Protestants and Hindus. Have you ever heard of a Muslim pacifist? Or come to that of a Roman Catholic or Greek or Russian Orthodox one? No, the cowardly film makers stick to soft targets. They would not have dared to interrupt a Roman Catholic service at the moment of the elevation of what people like them call the magic biscuit. The Roman Catholic church is a powerful corporation that can exercise great censorship (look what happened in Britain to the TV series Popetown. Twentieth Century Fox would never have been willing to stand up to all the boycotts and picketing that would have ensued. Hollywood has never escaped from the stranglehold of the heirs of the Catholic Legion of Decency. So the cowardly bas*** stick to the Pentecostals; they are a humble and powerless people whom it is safe to kick."

http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001388.php


Not blasphemy, but these are some great points.

[Hoovie]

I agree. So, I think blasphemy is evil speaking, railing or vilification (impious toward God).

I just think that you can't be ignorant of what you are doing, you have to willing know you are against it. That is why I use Saul in this case. He believed so much in the Jewish faith, he hated the Christians.

Not so sure I would call Borat's actions blasphemy. Ignorance maybe, especially, since they are saying he is Jewish, who probably wouldn't even check to see if he were wrong about the Christian faith he came to film.

Saul wouldn't have stopped unless God had stopped him. And I think God only stopped him because he knew that, in his heart, he would give his very life for truth, which he did.

Hopefully, somewhere down the line, God will also get a hold of Borat. Maybe he will put out a better film. LOL!


I think blasphemy is a "condition" of sorts - which if one continues to exist in they have no hope. the condition could also be called faithlessness or unbelief.

[Pressing-On]

I think blasphemy is a "condition" of sorts - which if one continues to exist in they have no hope. the condition could also be called faithlessness or unbelief.
I agree. So, you are defining that as a reprobate?

[mizpeh]

I agree. So, you are defining that as a reprobate?Don't you have to be a believer and then backslid before you can become reprobate?

[seekerman]

Don't you have to be a believer and then backslid before you can become reprobate?

When I was a child I remember a woman in the neighborhood saying that we children weren't anything but a pack of reprobates.

[KWSS1976]

LOL thats the first time I have seen that video and that was too funny...what made it so funny was I just heard the same lalalalalalalala tongues in the video that I heard this past Sunday...

[Pressing-On]

Don't you have to be a believer and then backslid before you can become reprobate?

Well, I'm not sure.

Who is he talking about in Romans 1:20? "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened"

He says he is debtor to both the Greeks, Barbarians, wise and unwise. Romans 1:14.

In Romans 1, is he speaking of only the saved that do not know God or glorify Him as God? Or is he speaking to everyone as seeing the invisible things of him from creation of the world where no one has an excuse?

Whoever he is speaking of, He turns them over to a reprobate mind because they do not retain (hold) Him in their knowledge in Romans 1:28.

Gill says: That is, they had an acquaintance with the existence and many of the perfections of one God. That many of the philosophers of Greece and Rome had a knowledge of one God, there can be no doubt.

They glorified him not as God - They did not “honor” him as God. This was the true source of their abominations. To glorify him “as God” is to regard with proper reverence all his perfections and laws; to venerate his name, his power, his holiness, and presence, etc. As they were not inclined to do this, so they were given over to their own vain and wicked desires. Sinners are not willing to give honor to God, as God. They are not pleased with his perfections; and therefore the mind becomes fixed on other objects, and the heart gives free indulgence to its own sinful desires. A willingness to honor God as God - to reverence, love, and obey him, would effectually restrain people from sin.

Not sure the writer is talking only about the saved who backslid.

I was also noticing that "knew" in Romans 1:21 is not as intense in the knowing as "knew" would be in Colossians 1:6 "Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:"

[POWERUP]

I grew up going to camp meeting there and to the youth camps. Crowd looks a lot smaller now than it did back in the day. Poor Jason Dillon was right in the middle of it all.

But yeah, the clip actually makes them look better than many services I have seen.

I remember those days Delta.................Looks a lot calmer to me to!!

That was the last year I was at MS. Camp. I missed that night though.

I remember people coming to church that Sunday hooping and holering
over some filmmaker getting the Holy Ghost!

Then the movie came out.................OOPS there it is!! Or Was!!!:pullhair

[Timmy]

I remember those days Delta.................Looks a lot calmer to me to!!

That was the last year I was at MS. Camp. I missed that night though.

I remember people coming to church that Sunday hooping and holering
over some filmmaker getting the Holy Ghost!

Then the movie came out.................OOPS there it is!! Or Was!!!:pullhair

So, PO was right! :lol

[POWERUP]

So, PO was right! :lol

:stirpot

[deltaguitar]

I remember those days Delta.................Looks a lot calmer to me to!!

That was the last year I was at MS. Camp. I missed that night though.

I remember people coming to church that Sunday hooping and holering
over some filmmaker getting the Holy Ghost!

Then the movie came out.................OOPS there it is!! Or Was!!!:pullhair

Yeah, I thought it was very calm. Maybe it was a day service.

[Jeffrey]

Wow - - I think they have a point here:

"Other targets are not so fair, as when Borat interrupts a Pentecostal service, just as the sacred gift of tongues is descending on them. Truly this film is the sin against the Holy Ghost. It also reveals just how cowardly the film makers are. They would not have dared to film and ridicule Kazakh Muslims in prayer with their foreheads on the ground and their arses in the air, because it would have led to violence and even murder, not by the Kazakhs themselves, who are far from being fanatics, but by Arabs, Somalis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, all willing to kill to avenge a slight to the honour of the Prophet. They would probably also have used Baron Cohen's Jewishness as an excuse for some anti-Semitic outrage. They are like that.

The Pentecostals by contrast are peaceable folk, many of them are even pacifists, a doctrine unique to Protestants and Hindus. Have you ever heard of a Muslim pacifist? Or come to that of a Roman Catholic or Greek or Russian Orthodox one? No, the cowardly film makers stick to soft targets. They would not have dared to interrupt a Roman Catholic service at the moment of the elevation of what people like them call the magic biscuit. The Roman Catholic church is a powerful corporation that can exercise great censorship (look what happened in Britain to the TV series Popetown. Twentieth Century Fox would never have been willing to stand up to all the boycotts and picketing that would have ensued. Hollywood has never escaped from the stranglehold of the heirs of the Catholic Legion of Decency. So the cowardly bas*** stick to the Pentecostals; they are a humble and powerless people whom it is safe to kick."

http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/001388.php

Pacifists? Pentecostals? Uh... maybe 4 decades ago. Most now wear American Flag T's, dress their kids in Army garb, flaunt their Support the Troops stickers and would be happy if America bombed all the Arabs. Does that sort of nail the Evangelical and Pentecostal culture? Let's be honest.

[DAII]

Pacifists? Pentecostals? Uh... maybe 4 decades ago. Most now wear American Flag T's, dress their kids in Army garb, flaunt their Support the Troops stickers and would be happy if America bombed all the Arabs. Does that sort of nail the Evangelical and Pentecostal culture? Let's be honest.

One on FB yesterday openly advocated a militia movement (because it's in the Constitution, duh) to thwart the Obama socialist agenda ...

I think he posts here. Very Christlike and constitutional (?).

[Sam]

One on FB yesterday openly advocated a militia movement (because it's in the Constitution, duh) to thwart the Obama socialist agenda ...

I think he posts here. Very Christlike and constitutional (?).

Well, it is my understanding that the reason we are given the right to bear arms by our Constitution is to protect ourselves against our government if it becomes too large or too intrusive.

[pelathais]

Pacifists? Pentecostals? Uh... maybe 4 decades ago. Most now wear American Flag T's, dress their kids in Army garb, flaunt their Support the Troops stickers and would be happy if America bombed all the Arabs. Does that sort of nail the Evangelical and Pentecostal culture? Let's be honest.

Okay. Honestly? No.

The "flag" thing maybe - the "bomb the Arabs" and presumably anybody else with extreme caprice, definitely NOT.

And why does the appearance of a "Support the Troops" ribbon magnet necessitate the word "flaunt?"

[ILG]

I know this has been posted on before, but I thought there were probably many who don't know about it. I find the whole thing shameful....on both sides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTWJo7a9l0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hlWlnzMmKQ&feature=related

[rgcraig]

Actually, we just brought this up again a couple wks ago.

[rgcraig]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=30343&highlight=Borat

[pelathais]

I didn't know anything about this. Who is this Mr. Borat? I don't get the reference to "Baywatch."

[ILG]

Actually, we just brought this up again a couple wks ago.

Yeah, I don't hang around as much as I used to. I wondered where my post went!

[Jeffrey]

I know this has been posted on before, but I thought there were probably many who don't know about it. I find the whole thing shameful....on both sides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTWJo7a9l0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hlWlnzMmKQ&feature=related

Still I scratch my head at this thing. Does anyone have the full service?

And what in the world is that song Tim Spell was singing?

I still get tickled with the pointer kid at the altar (you know the whole, pointing at the guy to deflect the power onto him move). Does Dillon's tongues pass the 1 Cor 14 test? What say you?

As much as people were appalled by this guy. He's an unbeliever, as far as we know has never been a believer. It was irreverent for sure, but I think this situation exposes us more than it victimizes us. I mean EVERYTHING we see here is par for the course. There is nothing unusual on the altar worker's part. That's exactly a proto-type. "Your whole life will be fixed if you can speak in tongues... LA LALALALALALAAL... say it.... there it is, there is it..."

[ILG]

Oh, I think it's totally par for the course. And yeah, I got a kick out of that kid too.

I remember back in the day, I would have been appalled by Borat, but inside I would have been secretly questioning the leaders.....because it just doesn't line up.

[pelathais]

Oh, I think it's totally par for the course. And yeah, I got a kick out of that kid too.

I remember back in the day, I would have been appalled by Borat, but inside I would have been secretly questioning the leaders.....because it just doesn't line up.

It does sort of make you question the whole "speak in tongues at the altar" thing. The preacher is appealing and even commanding me to go and behave just like Borat?

I'm actually looking for a deeper and a much more authentic experience.

[ILG]

It does sort of make you question the whole "speak in tongues at the altar" thing. The preacher is appealing and even commanding me to go and behave just like Borat?

I'm actually looking for a deeper and a much more authentic experience.

I am still truly confused at the difference between my authentic and legitimate experiences with repentance, baptism and tongues and what was manufactured and encouraged and sickly made-up.

[Jeffrey]

It does sort of make you question the whole "speak in tongues at the altar" thing. The preacher is appealing and even commanding me to go and behave just like Borat?
I'm actually looking for a deeper and a much more authentic experience.

:toofunny

Yes, a deeper, more pure, authentic experience that is not manipulated, steered, controlled -- it's nothing but the real presence of God working in me in that moment.

[Jeffrey]

I am still truly confused at the difference between my authentic and legitimate experiences with repentance, baptism and tongues and what was manufactured and encouraged and sickly made-up.

I think I've had both and that's how I'm able to distinguish.

We've all been there before. You know, when you needed a good praying through. And if you showed ANY signs of emotion to a message or a song, the altar workers hounded you to press that to become more dramatic.

[ILG]

I think I've had both and that's how I'm able to distinguish.

We've all been there before. You know, when you needed a good praying through. And if you showed ANY signs of emotion to a message or a song, the altar workers hounded you to press that to become more dramatic.

I've had both too. I have trouble figuring it all out. I'm still ticked at God for allowing hucksters to take advantage of sincerity. But, hey, what do I know? Someday, maybe I'll figure all this out. I haven't even been going to church lately. Maybe this Sunday I'll go to that Evangelical church we've attended off and on for about four years.

[tv1a]

That's why I retired from altar coaching. Tongue talking will not save anyone.

It does sort of make you question the whole "speak in tongues at the altar" thing. The preacher is appealing and even commanding me to go and behave just like Borat?

I'm actually looking for a deeper and a much more authentic experience.