Other upci splits

[THX4GRACE]

Can anyone confirm the various splits withing the UPC and basic reasons for them? I'm reading some varying dates and reasons for some of the splits.

1945 PCI and PAJC Merged to form UPC

1948 Some former PAJC members pulled away from UPC over race issues
1955 Former PAJC members legally re-chartered PAJC
1968 Members split over UPC being too liberal and formed AMF
1990s Members split over Westberg Resolution
2008 Members split over TV

[Sam]

Can anyone confirm the various splits withing the UPC and basic reasons for them? I'm reading some varying dates and reasons for some of the splits.
...
1968 Members split over UPC being too liberal and formed AMF
...


There may have been more there than just standards.
One issue was ministers ruling over other ministers, like district presbyters having authority over other ministers. From what I understand, another reason was because MB was not elected Gen. Supt. so he and a bunch left to form their own org. If this is not true maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation can correct me.

[commonsense]

I wouldn't label everthing as a split. Sometimes it's a joint decision to better serve both parties.

The oneness apostolic movement in my hometown dates to about 1920.

My grandmother was witnessed to by a neighbor in 1929 and she and her children began attending and in 1930 my dad was baptized and received the Holy Ghost.

In the mid to late 40's the black members of the congregation left to begin their own group and joined the PAW. To the best of my understanding it was not a "split".

There was a split in 1953 or 54. Since I was quite small I'm not a good source but as I recall from my mother ....the pastor was out of town alot preaching, often for his brother. The congregation was not happy about it.
At this time another minister came to town with a winning personality. He had a TV program (yes, mid 50's) and managed to attract a large portion of the UPC group. At least 1/2 left and joined this independent work...pastor was trinity.
After a couple years several of these returned to the "fold".

While I was in Bible School there was another smaller "split".

Since we're dealing with people, there will always be differences of opinion.

[commonsense]

Living in several cities and states I've seen other "splits".

Some occurred before we attended the local assembly; but we experienced the aftermath.

We were eyewitnesses to a couple "splits".

In 1989 the local split involved other issues but standards were in the background.

[Bowas]

There may have been more there than just standards.
One issue was ministers ruling over other ministers, like district presbyters having authority over other ministers. From what I understand, another reason was because MB was not elected Gen. Supt. so he and a bunch left to form their own org. If this is not true maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation can correct me.

Wow! I didn't know our own Mike Blume was even a consideration. What one learns on forums. :)

[jagwinn]

An early Oneness congregation split occured in 2Timothy:

2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

And, again, another split:

Act 15:36 ¶ And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, [and see] how they do.
Act 15:37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
Act 15:38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
Act 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
Act 15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
Act 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

.

[elle]

The UPCI is going through major changes as we speak they may be good or bad they are people. As people of the Lord we must have compassion on our brothers and our sisters of like faith. Support the good. The UPCI is not the only Apostolic organization we must remember. When there are splits for real there is always politics and feelings involved. I have been privileged to visit some of the split off churches over the standards TV in particular was the straw, and also some of the UPCI churches. I have felt the spirit of the Lord in most all these places. I have seen bad attitudes in both places and good people in both. It is time to drop the facades and get to the business of winning the lost. A house divided will not stand these are the words of our Lord. I love my UPCI brothers and sisters and i love those who are not affiliated. Currently i am UPCI but in the future i will not be. first let us not be hypocrits and become judgmental of each other let us love one another. God spoke through john when he penned: Beloved let us love one another for love is of God and he that loveth is born of God and knows God He that loveth not loveth not God for God is love Beloved let us love one another. 1 Jhn 4:7-8

[pastorrush]

I am with you Elle, I am a license minister in the upci but we must remember it is a organzation and as such there at times will be differinces amoung us but all of us must endeavor to strive for unity in the bond of peace. As a Pastor I use Apostolic ministers from various organizations And even my father- in- law is a Indapendant also preaches at our church.We need to love one another .:bliss:bliss

[Sam]

I am with you Elle, I am a license minister in the upci but we must remember it is a organzation and as such there at times will be differinces amoung us but all of us must endeavor to strive for unity in the bond of peace. As a Pastor I use Apostolic ministers from various organizations And even my father- in- law is a Indapendant also preaches at our church.We need to love one another .:bliss:bliss

by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples.....

[Falla39]

I am with you Elle, I am a license minister in the upci but we must remember it is a organzation and as such there at times will be differinces amoung us but all of us must endeavor to strive for unity in the bond of peace. As a Pastor I use Apostolic ministers from various organizations And even my father- in- law is a Indapendant also preaches at our church.We need to love one another .:bliss:bliss

What a refreshing post!:thumbsup
The only true way to love each other effectively is with/by the love of God shed abroad in our
hearts by the HOLY GHOST! If we don't love our brother or sister who we have seen, how
can we say we love God, who we have not seen. If we don't have LOVE, friend, how can we have
GOD, for love is of GOD. GOD IS LOVE!

Falla39

[Sam]

I have ordination in two groups.
One is the CoJCI (Churches of Jesus Christ International) which is an OP group that developed out of the Church of Jesus Christ chartered in 1927 by Bishop Mark Lawson.
The other group is our local church, the Hamilton Dream Center, which is trinitarian.

Last Sunday night I drove 156 miles (round trip) to visit a church pastored by a CoJCI minister that I had not personally met before. He had two ministers (a husband and a wife) from Louisiana ministering who also belong to the CoJCI. Also present was a Bishop from an OP group called Apostolic Church of the Living God and an independent OP minister who goes to a UPC church. All the ministers were treated equally. We all considered one another brothers and sisters and part of the Body of Christ.

[Sabby]

Can anyone confirm the various splits withing the UPC and basic reasons for them? I'm reading some varying dates and reasons for some of the splits.

1945 PCI and PAJC Merged to form UPC

1948 Some former PAJC members pulled away from UPC over race issues
1955 Former PAJC members legally re-chartered PAJC
1968 Members split over UPC being too liberal and formed AMF
1990s Members split over Westberg Resolution
2008 Members split over TV

In 1954, Van Hoose and Nulisch started the IMA over issues of autonomy, I believe.

[pelathais]

Can anyone confirm the various splits withing the UPC and basic reasons for them? I'm reading some varying dates and reasons for some of the splits.

1945 PCI and PAJC Merged to form UPC

1948 Some former PAJC members pulled away from UPC over race issues
1955 Former PAJC members legally re-chartered PAJC
1968 Members split over UPC being too liberal and formed AMF
1992 Members split over Westberg Resolution
1997 pelathais left in general disgust over the sinfulness and adultery of "ultra-cons"
2008 Members split over TV - forming WWPF

added specificity for ya.

[hawks-cry]

1997 pelathais left in general disgust over the sinfulness and adultery of "ultra-cons"
Who (or what) is "pelanthias"?
Also,...I have been trying to find some info concerning the AMF (yeah,..I know that they don't believe in the internet,...so can't find out much there). Anyhow,...I was there in Houston in 1968,...and saw the split. There was an AMF "Bible College" the year later (but it wasn't really official, I think). I am trying to remember the name of a pastor that pastored a small AMF church there in Houston,.(1968-1971)...but can't for the life of me recall his name!!!! There were two brethern in the small church at the time,...a Bro, Johnson (I believe) and a Bro. Bill Pellow. (Pellow was a young new AMF minister,...the other fellow wasn't a preacher. Anyone have any info,..or memories of this?
Oh great! Just now saw that "pelathias" is your user name,........................OKAAAAAAAAY (my face is red) <blush>

[Hoovie]

Can anyone confirm the various splits withing the UPC and basic reasons for them? I'm reading some varying dates and reasons for some of the splits.

1945 PCI and PAJC Merged to form UPC

1948 Some former PAJC members pulled away from UPC over race issues
1955 Former PAJC members legally re-chartered PAJC
1968 Members split over UPC being too liberal and formed AMF
1990s Members split over Westberg Resolution
2008 Members split over TV

I don't think any of these constitute a "split". All were less than ten percent of constituency. The WWPF perhaps came close - but remember those who originally "signed up" were under wrong impression that they could stay UPC if they chose to. When it became clear that would not be tolerated, a significant number recanted there allegiance to the World Wide Wrestling group.

[Sabby]

I wouldn't label everthing as a split. Sometimes it's a joint decision to better serve both parties.

The oneness apostolic movement in my hometown dates to about 1920.

My grandmother was witnessed to by a neighbor in 1929 and she and her children began attending and in 1930 my dad was baptized and received the Holy Ghost.

In the mid to late 40's the black members of the congregation left to begin their own group and joined the PAW. To the best of my understanding it was not a "split".

There was a split in 1953 or 54. Since I was quite small I'm not a good source but as I recall from my mother ....the pastor was out of town alot preaching, often for his brother. The congregation was not happy about it.
At this time another minister came to town with a winning personality. He had a TV program (yes, mid 50's) and managed to attract a large portion of the UPC group. At least 1/2 left and joined this independent work...pastor was trinity.
After a couple years several of these returned to the "fold".

While I was in Bible School there was another smaller "split".

Since we're dealing with people, there will always be differences of opinion.

The split in 53 or 54 was more than likely when Van Hoose and Nulisch pulled out to form the International Ministerial Association (IMA)

[Steve Epley]

Can anyone confirm the various splits withing the UPC and basic reasons for them? I'm reading some varying dates and reasons for some of the splits.

1945 PCI and PAJC Merged to form UPC

1948 Some former PAJC members pulled away from UPC over race issues
1955 Former PAJC members legally re-chartered PAJC
1968 Members split over UPC being too liberal and formed AMF
1990s Members split over Westberg Resolution
2008 Members split over TV

The split in 1968 from which the AMF was formed was not over lib verses con but rather New Testament Church Government. The Sovereign Church was the issue not holiness issues.
In the early 50's those involved in the 'latter rain' movement(Kidson-Vanhoose-Varnell-Coots-Outlaw-Hokstra) formed the International Ministers Association.

[Socialite]

A cursory review of Pentecostal review will reveal a "movement" that consists of schism after schism and split after split. Nothing has changed. It will continue as well.

[Steve Epley]

Who (or what) is "pelanthias"?
Also,...I have been trying to find some info concerning the AMF (yeah,..I know that they don't believe in the internet,...so can't find out much there). Anyhow,...I was there in Houston in 1968,...and saw the split. There was an AMF "Bible College" the year later (but it wasn't really official, I think). I am trying to remember the name of a pastor that pastored a small AMF church there in Houston,.(1968-1971)...but can't for the life of me recall his name!!!! There were two brethern in the small church at the time,...a Bro, Johnson (I believe) and a Bro. Bill Pellow. (Pellow was a young new AMF minister,...the other fellow wasn't a preacher. Anyone have any info,..or memories of this?
Oh great! Just now saw that "pelathias" is your user name,........................OKAAAAAAAAY (my face is red) <blush>

Verbal Bean pastored in Houston but it wasn't a small church they ran aound 400.

[*AQuietPlace*]

The split in 1968 from which the AMF was formed was not over lib verses con but rather New Testament Church Government. The Sovereign Church was the issue not holiness issues.


Could you explain? How did their views differ?

[aegsm76]

I don't think any of these constitute a "split". All were less than ten percent of constituency. The WWPF perhaps came close - but remember those who originally "signed up" were under wrong impression that they could stay UPC if they chose to. When it became clear that would not be tolerated, a significant number recanted there allegiance to the World Wide Wrestling group.

I've got news for you Hoovie, it is still tolerated.
If either group, WPF or UPC, enforces a one organization rule, you will see a lot more GIB's.
There has been some selective enforcement, but it is totally dependant on the local district.

[Socialite]

Fractions, Schisms, Splits.... the repeated and redundant trend of 20th and 21st Pentecostalism.

[notofworks]

A cursory review of Pentecostal review will reveal a "movement" that consists of schism after schism and split after split. Nothing has changed. It will continue as well.



Yep, and while pentecostalism claims to be different than all those "dead-religion" liturgical denominations, it's really no different at all....just a little louder and armed with tongues. My mind is boggled with I consider how many different directions major groups of people have headed with the bible.

Does anyone besides me ever wonder why God didn't give us a clear set of guidelines so that all this could have been avoided? Surely this isn't what He wanted "The Church" to look like.

[Steve Epley]

Could you explain? How did their views differ?

M. E. Burr wrote a book called "New Testament Church Government & Tithing" he was the editor of the Texas Sentinel. He advocated local church sovereighty under the leadership of the local pastor. That the pastor over pastor political system of the UPC was unscriptural. The elected officials held no divine office due to an political election and had no authority over the local church. Elder Burr was thrown out of the organization because he would not recant. Several notable Brethren defended him and many of them were thrown out. Thus they formed the AMF at Baker, La. 1968.

[notofworks]

M. E. Burr wrote a book called "New Testament Church Government & Tithing" he was the editor of the Texas Sentinel. He advocated local church sovereighty under the leadership of the local pastor. That the pastor over pastor political system of the UPC was unscriptural. The elected officials held no divine office due to an political election and had no authority over the local church. Elder Burr was thrown out of the organization because he would not recant. Several notable Brethren defended him and many of them were thrown out. Thus they formed the AMF at Baker, La. 1968.



How do you feel about Burr's opinions? I fairly well agree, myself.

[Sam]

How do you feel about Burr's opinions? I fairly well agree, myself.

opinions on what?

Some of his opinions you might have problems with.

[notofworks]

opinions on what?

Some of his opinions you might have problems with.



Well, I was limiting the question to what SE posted about, the church government opinions...the unscriptural ideas of elected organizational leadership.

[Socialite]

Well, I was limiting the question to what SE posted about, the church government opinions...the unscriptural ideas of elected organizational leadership.

The tasks are organizational. We know the Apostles appointed 7 men over the food distribution tasks, for example. They all agreed upon such a man. Elders were appointed by the Apostles as well.

The Apostles are gone now -- and IMO, are not intended to be replaced. But how does the Church go about positioning elders today? What do you believe is the right way?

[Sam]

Well, I was limiting the question to what SE posted about, the church government opinions...the unscriptural ideas of elected organizational leadership.

OK,

I used to get the Texas Sentinel when Bro. Burr was editor and for a while I got the AMF magazine, plus I've also read his booklet on women's hair and I know you wouldn't go along with lots of the stuff he taught.

Bro. Burr was a very good writer.

[notofworks]

The tasks are organizational. We know the Apostles appointed 7 men over the food distribution tasks, for example. They all agreed upon such a man. Elders were appointed by the Apostles as well.

The Apostles are gone now -- and IMO, are not intended to be replaced. But how does the Church go about positioning elders today? What do you believe is the right way?




I have fallen in love with the Willow Creek way of providing resources, ideas, inspiration, and direction for any church that volunteers to become involved. In my 6 years of belonging to the Willow Creek Association, I have been provided with multitudes of more ideas and resources than my 6 years of being licensed in the UPC, and my 11 years of "belonging" elsewhere. Plus, there's no official "Leadership", as in someone with authority to dictate what the local church does. It feels incredibly New Testament.

And there are other similar groups out there, for example, The Mosaic Alliance, of which we're also a member. Their help hasn't been quite as great in quantity, but more helpful in person-to-person help.

[notofworks]

OK,

I used to get the Texas Sentinel when Bro. Burr was editor and for a while I got the AMF magazine, plus I've also read his booklet on women's hair and I know you wouldn't go along with lots of the stuff he taught.

Bro. Burr was a very good writer.




I have to be honest, I know nothing about him. But the bit about his organizational opinions caught my attention. I am determined never again to belong to any group that elects people to positions and for me, most all of what has split off from the UPC is just the same song, second verse. I see Global as another UPC without dress codes.

[Socialite]

I have fallen in love with the Willow Creek way of providing resources, ideas, inspiration, and direction for any church that volunteers to become involved. In my 6 years of belonging to the Willow Creek Association, I have been provided with multitudes of more ideas and resources than my 6 years of being licensed in the UPC, and my 11 years of "belonging" elsewhere. Plus, there's no official "Leadership", as in someone with authority to dictate what the local church does. It feels incredibly New Testament.

And there are other similar groups out there, for example, The Mosaic Alliance, of which we're also a member. Their help hasn't been quite as great in quantity, but more helpful in person-to-person help.

Sounds like a wonderful fellowship to be part of.

However, that didn't fully answer the question regarding appointing elders.

[Socialite]

I have to be honest, I know nothing about him. But the bit about his organizational opinions caught my attention. I am determined never again to belong to any group that elects people to positions and for me, most all of what has split off from the UPC is just the same song, second verse. I see Global as another UPC without dress codes.

:nah Much to the chagrin of those who are looking for a "UPC without dress code," I can tell you that this is not what Global is.

[Encryptus]

:nah Much to the chagrin of those who are looking for a "UPC without dress code," I can tell you that this is not what Global is.

:thumbsup

[notofworks]

Sounds like a wonderful fellowship to be part of.

However, that didn't fully answer the question regarding appointing elders.



Yeah, sorry. And I know you're in connection to Soma, which is another great place of support.

I have an "Elder" over me, who I answer to voluntarily and submit to. He isn't elected, but has "morphed" into my overseer. While we follow his oversight, he has no legal connection to the church.

[Steve Epley]

How do you feel about Burr's opinions? I fairly well agree, myself.

I believed Elder Burr's book.

[*AQuietPlace*]

M. E. Burr wrote a book called "New Testament Church Government & Tithing" he was the editor of the Texas Sentinel. He advocated local church sovereighty under the leadership of the local pastor. That the pastor over pastor political system of the UPC was unscriptural. The elected officials held no divine office due to an political election and had no authority over the local church. Elder Burr was thrown out of the organization because he would not recant. Several notable Brethren defended him and many of them were thrown out. Thus they formed the AMF at Baker, La. 1968.
Did the AMF manage to keep that structure - emphasis on local pastor?

[Apocrypha]

There may have been more there than just standards.
One issue was ministers ruling over other ministers, like district presbyters having authority over other ministers. From what I understand, another reason was because MB was not elected Gen. Supt. so he and a bunch left to form their own org. If this is not true maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation can correct me.

One of my UPCI pastor uncles was there to see it firsthand in TX. He told me the story a few years ago as we passed a AMF church in his car.

Burr wanted to be Texas District Sup, lost to Holley, took it very personally, and then used the issue of whether churches should have a board or be 100% run by the pastor as a wedge issue to call to arms what became the core of the AMF.

[notofworks]

:nah Much to the chagrin of those who are looking for a "UPC without dress code," I can tell you that this is not what Global is.



...and I may be wrong. But I see a General Superintendent, a General Conference, a General Secretary, District Superintendents, on and on and on. they have different titles but it all looks the same. And it's certainly very pentecostal.

[deacon blues]

Wow! I didn't know our own Mike Blume was even a consideration. What one learns on forums. :)

"Mark Bassett"
"Miss Brattified"
"Marven Borrmann"
"

[Steve Epley]

Did the AMF manage to keep that structure - emphasis on local pastor?

Yes, but the problem was most of the men who formed the AMF were so disenchanted with any type of organization the majority of those who formed the fellowship opted out to become independent. Both the La. & Tx. districts were ruthless thus lawsuits and blackballing. The AMF yet exist today but most of the men in it now were not part of the original group. In the early 70's there were bout 250 churches which were major churches in the South and very notable men of that time period. Elders Burr-O'Brien-Majors-Shew-Jordan-Cavaness-Davis-Ballestero-Bean-Free-Morgan-Duplissey-Cranford-Buie were renown preachers and Bible teachers.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Yes, but the problem was most of the men who formed the AMF were so disenchanted with any type of organization the majority of those who formed the fellowship opted out to become independent. Both the La. & Tx. districts were ruthless thus lawsuits and blackballing. The AMF yet exist today but most of the men in it now were not part of the original group. In the early 70's there were bout 250 churches which were major churches in the South and very notable men of that time period. Elders Burr-O'Brien-Majors-Shew-Jordan-Cavaness-Davis-Ballestero-Bean-Free-Morgan-Duplissey-Cranford-Buie were renown preachers and Bible teachers.
I know almost all of them. :) Or at least, their offspring. :D

[Cyrus]

There may have been more there than just standards.
One issue was ministers ruling over other ministers, like district presbyters having authority over other ministers. From what I understand, another reason was because MB was not elected Gen. Supt. so he and a bunch left to form their own org. If this is not true maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation can correct me.

I can assure you that the reason the late Elder Murray Burr split from the UPC was NOT because he wasn't elected General Superintendent. He disagreed with having preachers having authority over preachers and with the way tithing operates within the UPC. He wrote a book scriptural Tithing and New Testament Church Government and this enraged the Organization, obviously. After he disfellowshipped, he started fellowshipping men of "like precious faith" and these men eventually started the AMF. Because it is only a Fellowship and not an Organization, politics are reduced to nil, thus Pastors aspire only to please God and not a higher office within an Organization.

[Theophil]

:nah Much to the chagrin of those who are looking for a "UPC without dress code," I can tell you that this is not what Global is.

You are correct, Socialite. Global has AoG churches and ministers affiliated.

[Theophil]

The largest and most damaging "split" of the UPCI was the 1994 Westberg idiocy. It was at least 4X larger than the TV Res. issue. Just a well crafted demonic plan that really hurt the church.

[freeatlast]

The split in 1968 from which the AMF was formed was not over lib verses con but rather New Testament Church Government. The Sovereign Church was the issue not holiness issues.
In the early 50's those involved in the 'latter rain' movement(Kidson-Vanhoose-Varnell-Coots-Outlaw-Hokstra) formed the International Ministers Association.

They musta forgot to tell my AMF pastor that info. all he ever talked about was long sleeves, long dresses, long tresses..producing long faces.

The wedding ring was a HOT issue with the AMF. My AMF pastor proudly went to his dentist and had his gold fillings removed and replaced with amalgam.

TV was also harped on continuoisly. Amongst the AMF ers I was around in 1970 it WAS all over the fact they no longer wanted to felowship the liberal UPC churches.

[Theophil]

They musta forgot to tell my AMF pastor that info. all he ever talked about was long sleeves, long dresses, long tresses..producing long faces.

The wedding ring was a HOT issue with the AMF. My AMF pastor proudly went to his dentist and had his gold fillings removed and replaced with amalgam.

TV was also harped on continuoisly. Amongst the AMF ers I was around in 1970 it WAS all over the fact they no longer wanted to felowship the liberal UPC churches.

That sounds insane.

[Sister Alvear]

I knew many of the founders of the AMF...

[hossgray]

very well said