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View Full Version : Is it a sin for women to shave, pluck or otherwise


Praxeas
03-03-2011, 10:14 PM
remove body hair? Including eyebrows and facial hair like mustaches, underarm, legs???

To me, if some UCs like OP2 are consistent with their arguments, they would have to say yes

MissBrattified
03-03-2011, 10:31 PM
remove body hair? Including eyebrows and facial hair like mustaches, underarm, legs???

To me, if some UCs like OP2 are consistent with their arguments, they would have to say yes

And if a man is going to be cleanshaven, should he be shaven everywhere? :coffee2

BeenThinkin
03-03-2011, 10:33 PM
And if a man is going to be cleanshaven, should he be shaven everywhere? :coffee2


Whoa.... I'll just stop shaving, period! :foottap

Been Thinkin

houston
03-04-2011, 01:24 AM
I touch up the brows. Nobody wants a caterpillar (sp) across their face. I trim under the arms, nobody wants a monkey in a head-lock. I shave the top of my feet, keeps my shoes from expiring. I... o.O

Praxeas
03-04-2011, 02:41 AM
I touch up the brows. Nobody wants a caterpillar (sp) across their face. I trim under the arms, nobody wants a monkey in a head-lock. I shave the top of my feet, keeps my shoes from expiring. I... o.O
you shave the top of your feet?

houston
03-04-2011, 02:44 AM
Yeah. I'm like a wolfman. Shaving the top, feet sweat less... prevents odor.

aegsm76
03-04-2011, 04:43 AM
remove body hair? Including eyebrows and facial hair like mustaches, underarm, legs???

To me, if some UCs like OP2 are consistent with their arguments, they would have to say yes

I don't think the verse used to support uncut hair could be construed to apply to other body parts.

*AQuietPlace*
03-04-2011, 05:28 AM
I used to know some preachers who taught that.

Azzan
03-04-2011, 05:32 AM
I used to know some preachers who taught that.

Me too. Some of the ladies in the church where I was born and raised did not shave their legs.

*AQuietPlace*
03-04-2011, 05:38 AM
Growing up, we could shave our legs, but not pluck our eyebrows. Women who would get into church after having plucked their eyebrows for years would have to stop. It looked really awful most of the time, because brows don't usually grow back in normally. :(

Sister Alvear
03-04-2011, 06:00 AM
growing up we could not shave our legs but like most girls we did it anyway! Of course that was a LONG time ago....

jfrog
03-04-2011, 06:02 AM
I don't think the verse used to support uncut hair could be construed to apply to other body parts.

I agree.

Aquila
03-04-2011, 06:09 AM
remove body hair? Including eyebrows and facial hair like mustaches, underarm, legs???

To me, if some UCs like OP2 are consistent with their arguments, they would have to say yes

It's not a sin. lol

Besides, who likes women with bushy eyebrows, mustaches, underarm hair, and fuzzy legs?

POWERUP
03-04-2011, 07:38 AM
:ursofunnyAnd if a man is going to be cleanshaven, should he be shaven everywhere? :coffee2

RandyWayne
03-04-2011, 07:53 AM
It's not a sin. lol

Besides, who likes women with bushy eyebrows, mustaches, underarm hair, and fuzzy legs?

On our cruise, there was a woman I kept running into no matter where I was (except maybe the bathrooms). She was a pretty striking young lass except for her standout feature, the big bushy eyebrows -more like a big bushy uni-brow. I kept thinking that she was Maggie Simpsons nemesis, "the baby with one eyebrow", on The Simpsons as a young child.
Either that or the Russian woman from the movie Dodgeball.

Apprehended
03-04-2011, 09:27 AM
It is so amazing how thinking gets so messed up which flow from ignorant leaders who claim they are speaking for God. Then, the even more ignorant followers become willingly compliant to the demands of these leaders.

I've often wondered how much hooey a good husband would allow his wife to be subjected to before he said to that leader, "ENOUGH OF YOUR GARBAGE, I'm going to protect my wife from being subject to so much hogwash." Would the limit have to be that his wife's arm pits are inspected for possible clipping or shaving? The husband is the head of his own HOUSE (wife)...not a ignorant leader regardless who he might be or any church position that he might hold.

sandie
03-04-2011, 10:58 AM
It is so amazing how thinking gets so messed up which flow from ignorant leaders who claim they are speaking for God. Then, the even more ignorant followers become willingly compliant to the demands of these leaders.

I've often wondered how much hooey a good husband would allow his wife to be subjected to before he said to that leader, "ENOUGH OF YOUR GARBAGE, I'm going to protect my wife from being subject to so much hogwash." Would the limit have to be that his wife's arm pits are inspected for possible clipping or shaving? The husband is the head of his own HOUSE (wife)...not a ignorant leader regardless who he might be or any church position that he might hold.

A former pastor of ours always said no man has the right to tell another man's wife what she can or can't do.
That pretty much saved alot of problems in the church.

He would totally agree with you, Bro. Strange.

Apprehended
03-04-2011, 11:16 AM
A former pastor of ours always said no man has the right to tell another man's wife what she can or can't do.
That pretty much saved alot of problems in the church.

He would totally agree with you, Bro. Strange.

Agree with me?

Sounds like a very wise pastor! :heeheehee

RandyWayne
03-04-2011, 11:21 AM
A former pastor of ours always said no man has the right to tell another man's wife what she can or can't do.
That pretty much saved alot of problems in the church.

He would totally agree with you, Bro. Strange.

I can't even tell my own wife what to do, or dare not try. LOL

Truthseeker
03-04-2011, 11:22 AM
remove body hair? Including eyebrows and facial hair like mustaches, underarm, legs???

To me, if some UCs like OP2 are consistent with their arguments, they would have to say yes

I had this discussion before with some ministers, if it's vanity to have facial hair then it's vanity for their wives to shape their eyebrows.

Truthseeker
03-04-2011, 11:25 AM
growing up we could not shave our legs but like most girls we did it anyway! Of course that was a LONG time ago....

What are your thoughts on it now?

Aquila
03-04-2011, 11:51 AM
On our cruise, there was a woman I kept running into no matter where I was (except maybe the bathrooms). She was a pretty striking young lass except for her standout feature, the big bushy eyebrows -more like a big bushy uni-brow. I kept thinking that she was Maggie Simpsons nemesis, "the baby with one eyebrow", on The Simpsons as a young child.
Either that or the Russian woman from the movie Dodgeball.

lol

Praxeas
03-04-2011, 12:42 PM
I don't think the verse used to support uncut hair could be construed to apply to other body parts.
I wasn't referring to a verse but their argument.

Their argument goes "God made you the way you are, why change it? Why pay attention to the flesh. You are full of pride if you try to do things to make yourself look better"

Austin
03-04-2011, 01:26 PM
If some of the church law would allow women to be more modest in appearance then maybe some of the men when they are driving down the street would quite lusting after the girl walking down the sidewalk with those shortie white shorts on and that halter top
and start paying more attention to the beauty of their own wives.

KWSS1976
03-04-2011, 01:32 PM
Hey some of the pentecostal women be looking hot too...showing all that leg in those skirts and such...

Austin
03-04-2011, 01:43 PM
Hey some of the pentecostal women be looking hot too...showing all that leg in those skirts and such...
You know what my friend, If a woman went to church dressed in a burlap sack covering her from the crown of her head to the sole of her foot, and if during the praise service she raised her hands and her big toe came out from under the sack someone would lust after it.
Most of the time in my lifes experiences I see sin in the eye of the beholder and not in the appearence of the person.

Apprehended
03-04-2011, 01:46 PM
You know what my friend, If a woman went to church dressed in a burlap sack covering her from the crown of her head to the sole of her foot, and if during the praise service she raised her hands and her big toe came out from under the sack someone would lust after it.
Most of the time in my lifes experiences I see sin in the eye of the beholder and not in the appearence of the person.

:lol

True....

But hey...nothing so exhilarating than a look at a big toe, especially one with a big corn on it. :D

You heard the old saying, "Don't knock it until you try it."

Austin
03-04-2011, 01:49 PM
:lol

True....

But hey...nothing so exhilarating than a look at a big toe, especially one with a big corn on it. :D

You heard the old saying, "Don't knock it until you try it."
Dear Jesus,,,,,, It's funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

houston
03-04-2011, 02:19 PM
Where is my emesis basin?

Sam
03-04-2011, 09:31 PM
remove body hair? Including eyebrows and facial hair like mustaches, underarm, legs???

To me, if some UCs like OP2 are consistent with their arguments, they would have to say yes

Why would preachers/pastors/ministers even think about junk like this and consider preaching/teaching on it?
Isn't this like straining out a gnat that Jesus mentioned?

The last time our family attended an Apostolic church was one Sunday night in the late nineteen seventies. We had been going there for about 15 years. Our ALJC pastor in his Sunday night sermon said, "The Bible says that a man is supposed to be clean shaven." After hearing that nonsense, we just never went back.

Paws4It
03-04-2011, 09:54 PM
Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all [is] vanity.

This is why this scripture is so valuable to us all;

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The Mrs
03-04-2011, 09:59 PM
Growing up, we could shave our legs, but not pluck our eyebrows. Women who would get into church after having plucked their eyebrows for years would have to stop. It looked really awful most of the time, because brows don't usually grow back in normally. :(

I was one of those! :noidea

Praxeas
03-04-2011, 10:08 PM
Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all [is] vanity.

This is why this scripture is so valuable to us all;

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
So valuable because it can be twisted to support any false doctrine?

Apprehended
03-04-2011, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*
Growing up, we could shave our legs, but not pluck our eyebrows. Women who would get into church after having plucked their eyebrows for years would have to stop. It looked really awful most of the time, because brows don't usually grow back in normally

I was one of those! :noidea

So, let me get this straight...

You got into church and you quit plucking your eyebrows and became an UC?

crakjak
03-04-2011, 10:27 PM
Me too. Some of the ladies in the church where I was born and raised did not shave their legs.

Sure glad that rule passed away!!! LOL

The Mrs
03-04-2011, 10:30 PM
So, let me get this straight...

You got into church and you quit plucking your eyebrows and became an UC?

When I say, 'I toed the line.' Believe me...I TOED THE LINE. Hook, line and sinker.

I would never DARE to anything against what the preacher advised! :uhoh

Praxeas
03-04-2011, 10:44 PM
So, let me get this straight...

You got into church and you quit plucking your eyebrows and became an UC?
No I think she was saying she grew one busy eyebrow that went across her forehead :heeheehee

Praxeas
03-04-2011, 10:45 PM
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/3/5/128807477393151283.jpg

Apprehended
03-04-2011, 10:54 PM
No I think she was saying she grew one busy eyebrow that went across her forehead :heeheehee

:lol

Wonder if she shaved the arm pits back then? Gotta know these things. They are important to know, you know....

Sister Alvear
03-04-2011, 11:15 PM
What are your thoughts on it now?

Same thing I thought back then...ha...I think ladies should shave their legs and under their arms...

If someone feels different I respect their thoughts...however I do NOT have those convictions.

Jay
03-04-2011, 11:57 PM
Uh, forgive me if I find the topic to be slightly inappropriate.

I believe that a lady may cut and/or shave everything but her hair on her head and her eyebrows.

I will never forget being slightly terrorized of an older ladies mustache (not that there was actually that much there, but still).

Cindy
03-05-2011, 05:29 AM
I know I shouldn't be, but I am still shocked about some things that were taught in some churches. My Mom was the authority on when I could shave my legs, not my pastor. Were some of y'all grown and taught not to shave your legs?

Austin
03-05-2011, 07:54 AM
All this over how we should look by the standards of what our individual churches believes. Insane! Jesus never saved our body, He saved our spirit. When we die, if we do, then this carnal body will return to the ground from where it came. I realized the verse referring to this being the temple of the Holy Ghost,and if that is the case then why not listen to Him and find some modest level in faith where a lady or man, are not being vain in their appearance and yet not so odd that it's getting more attention in public than what would be, in the sight of God, acceptable.If we are going to live in the Old Covenant then we need to realize in our reality ream which covenant is in force and which is not.
Going to hell doctrine because you shave your underarms or legs or God is going to punish you, that stuff is just not common sense at all..

sandie
03-05-2011, 08:01 AM
All this over how we should look by the standards of what our individual churches believes. Insane! Jesus never saved our body, He saved our spirit. When we die, if we do, then this carnal body will return to the ground from where it came. I realized the verse referring to this being the temple of the Holy Ghost,and if that is the case then why not listen to Him and find some modest level in faith where a lady or man, are not being vain in their appearance and yet not so odd that it's getting more attention in public than what would be, in the sight of God, acceptable.If we are going to live in the Old Covenant then we need to realize in our reality ream which covenant is in force and which is not.
Going to hell doctrine because you shave your underarms or legs or God is going to punish you, that stuff is just not common sense at all..

:thumbsup

jediwill83
03-05-2011, 09:30 AM
heres whats scary...if a woman has a hormonal inbalance and has excessive facial hair*oooooh trust me ive seen some freaky lookin stuff* is she obligated to shave it since wearing a moustache or beard is considered a sin for a man for oc's or is it her glory? hehe *HOW COME SISTER SO AND SO CAN GROW A BEARD AND I CANT??????* JK!

Apprehended
03-05-2011, 10:16 AM
heres whats scary...if a woman has a hormonal inbalance and has excessive facial hair*oooooh trust me ive seen some freaky lookin stuff* is she obligated to shave it since wearing a moustache or beard is considered a sin for a man for oc's or is it her glory? hehe *HOW COME SISTER SO AND SO CAN GROW A BEARD AND I CANT??????* JK!

'cause sister S&S looks better in a beard than you do!!!!!!!!




:lol

J/K

jediwill83
03-05-2011, 10:21 AM
actually i look pretty good! I grew one just cause I was curious....I was suprised how much red hair I have in it.

commonsense
03-05-2011, 10:36 AM
As always....it comes under the catagory of "commomsense" :thumbsup

It amazes me that anyone would not fix their eyebrows (if needed) or take care of very basic grooming . as in shaving legs.

I recall clipping my eyebrows at about 12, and my dad had a fit. I don't think he cared about plucking....but I used embroidery scissors which translates to lack of control in small areas. I had very small eyebrows for a while...
Once I switched to tweezers I could go in public again. :heeheehee

Apprehended
03-05-2011, 10:48 AM
Tweezers????

I've seen some sisters that needed a lawn mower.

Paws4It
03-05-2011, 07:01 PM
So valuable because it can be twisted to support any false doctrine?

So valuable because it won't be you standing in my place on judgement day. I better be sure I live what I believe, as we all should.

Paws4It
03-05-2011, 07:04 PM
Tweezers????

I've seen some sisters that needed a lawn mower.

hahahhahaha Now that made me laugh out loud! :)
It's good to laugh. It's good for us. :heeheehee

Praxeas
03-05-2011, 09:58 PM
So valuable because it won't be you standing in my place on judgement day. I better be sure I live what I believe, as we all should.
So what does that verse mean to you in the context of THIS discussion? how is it valuable?

Monarchianism
03-06-2011, 03:40 AM
How is shaving your eyebrows having to do with a distinction between the sexes? Surely nature would have let men lose their eyebrow hair, just as they do with hair on their head, if nature was infact teaching them a lesson. LOL. I Cor 11 only applies nature to hair "on the head." Huge distinction there! Men, shave your eyebrows! That's nuts. If women weren't allowed to shave their legs, them I'm sure that their leg hair would be thicker than men leg hair. Surely nature would have taught us that too. >.> Therefore, it is not a sin to shave your legs. Plus, if men go bald as they age, then why aren't they losing their eyebrow hair? This thread is pointless.

I Cor 11 is about hair on the "head."

houston
03-06-2011, 12:24 PM
Nah, it's about a veil.

Hoovie
03-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Nah, it's about a veil.

Pretty much, yup.

Blubayou
03-06-2011, 01:39 PM
The only time I visited the Alexandria Church on a Sunday morning was about 30 years ago. That morning Br. G. A. Mangun , Sr preached against ladies cutting hair anywhere on the head, this included eyebrows or upper lips! Needless to say, I was surprised to hear this, and did not follow his instruction.

Sam
03-06-2011, 02:24 PM
The only time I visited the Alexandria Church on a Sunday morning was about 30 years ago. That morning Br. G. A. Mangun , Sr preached against ladies cutting hair anywhere on the head, this included eyebrows or upper lips! Needless to say, I was surprised to hear this, and did not follow his instruction.

So, if it's wrong for a woman to shave/cut/trim God-given hair anywhere "on the head" wherever it manifests itself: ears, nose, forehead, upper lip, chin, etc. is it necessary for a man to shave/cut/trim all those places?

And this doesn't even address other theological moral issues such as manscaping.

Sister Alvear
03-07-2011, 08:24 AM
one word comes to my mind at this moment...common sense....

Sam
03-07-2011, 11:07 AM
one word comes to my mind at this moment...common sense....

I had a pastor that used to say, "The most uncommon thing in the world is common sense."

mfblume
03-07-2011, 12:26 PM
Nah, it's about a veil.

Right. :thumbsup

Sam
03-07-2011, 12:31 PM
Nah, it's about a veil.

yeppers

kclee4jc
05-07-2011, 07:44 PM
Why would preachers/pastors/ministers even think about junk like this and consider preaching/teaching on it?
Isn't this like straining out a gnat that Jesus mentioned?

The last time our family attended an Apostolic church was one Sunday night in the late nineteen seventies. We had been going there for about 15 years. Our ALJC pastor in his Sunday night sermon said, "The Bible says that a man is supposed to be clean shaven." After hearing that nonsense, we just never went back.

It doesn't bother me a bit that some pastors ask the men in the church to be clean shaven (mine included). But i can say that if i was going to a church and the pastor didnt know the Word any better than that...i don't believe i would go back either.

Hoovie
05-07-2011, 07:48 PM
It doesn't bother me a bit that some pastors ask the men in the church to be clean shaven (mine included). But i can say that if i was going to a church and the pastor didnt know the Word any better than that...i don't believe i would go back either.

Do you think there is any sensical reason to "ask" it at all though, aside from personal preference?

kclee4jc
05-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Do you think there is any sensical reason to "ask" it at all though, aside from personal preference?

Yes. I believe at one time it was a very applicable standard. It has probably lost its value but for the sake of respecting the elders, i do not see it as an unreasonable request at all. I attend some of the most conservative conferences in Pentecost and i have never heard it preached as a heaven or hell issue. And i know for certain my pastor does not see it as one either.

houston
05-07-2011, 08:12 PM
"manscape"

ThePastorsCoach
05-07-2011, 10:04 PM
I shaved when I was asked to minister at a UPC church and was scheduled for two weeks. I preached on a Sunday Morning and night and had 12 filled with the Holy Ghost and 15 baptized in a church of around 100 that had very few results in the years past. The Pastor met me for breakfast on Monday morning and said that someone had seen my web page and that I had facial hair in some of the pictures. I said that is true but when I go into places that do not have facial hair or wear jewelry or whatever, I honor their customs and traditions and I shave before I get there. He asked me if I had planned to grow the facial hair (a very short goatee) back and I said yes. He said, well - This Revival is over, you can pack and check out of the hotel today! WOW! Was I surprised and sad as I thought this man had good sense! Unbelievable! He left there soon after the meeting and has not pastored again. What is wrong with people?

ThePastorsCoach
05-07-2011, 10:11 PM
Yes. I believe at one time it was a very applicable standard. It has probably lost its value but for the sake of respecting the elders, i do not see it as an unreasonable request at all. I attend some of the most conservative conferences in Pentecost and i have never heard it preached as a heaven or hell issue. And i know for certain my pastor does not see it as one either.

Why do you believe that? It has never been a Bible Standard. It is absolutely an unreasonable demand and pressure put on men to submit to balance out the hair standard for the women. I too attended the most conservative conferences in Pentecost and absolutely heard it preached as a heaven and hell - disobeying the pastor and his authority.
I head NAU say many times from the pulpit, "THE HOMOSEXUAL WEARS THE BEARD!" He lied when he said it and he knew it was nothing less than a control issue. He did it to intimidate the men and bully them and I heard and saw him and others do it many times.
JEZEBEL IS STILL IN THE CHURCH - Manipulating, controlling, bullying just like she always had - but she is called a Superintendent, Presbyter, Pastor, Evangelist or whatever these days. SAD!

houston
05-07-2011, 10:13 PM
Yep... sad, really!

Hoovie
05-07-2011, 10:25 PM
Yes. I believe at one time it was a very applicable standard. It has probably lost its value but for the sake of respecting the elders, i do not see it as an unreasonable request at all. I attend some of the most conservative conferences in Pentecost and i have never heard it preached as a heaven or hell issue. And i know for certain my pastor does not see it as one either.

Can we at least admit this position (that of your pastor I assume) is very complicated?

Assuming it was a good reaction to the hippie movement (I don't accept that BTW), how fast should the church be in responding to the cultural fads? Are we not a bit slow on this one? Did it take them 25 yrs to start preaching against beards and moustaches in 1960?

Not a heaven/hell issue? I agree, and would not consider shaving/not shaving because of pastoral whims. Neither would I accept instruction on circumcision/or not, nor the eating of meats and keeping of Holy Days...

It's time we asked some serious questions. Have we offended without cause those who wear facial hair? If so, we need to repent corporately and our leadership needs to grow facial hair as a sign of humility and sincere repentance.

ThePastorsCoach
05-07-2011, 10:33 PM
Can we at least admit this position (that of your pastor I assume) is very complicated?

Assuming it was a good reaction to the hippie movement (I don't accept that BTW), how fast should the church be in responding to the cultural fads? Are we not a bit slow on this one? Did it take them 25 yrs to start preaching against beards and moustaches in 1960?

Not a heaven/hell issue? I agree, and would not consider shaving/not shaving because of pastoral whims. Neither would I accept instruction on circumcision/or not, nor the eating of meats and keeping of Holy Days...

It's time we asked some serious questions. Have we offended without cause those who wear facial hair? If so, we need to repent corporately and our leadership needs to grow facial hair as a sign of humility and sincere repentance.

GREAT POST! Very true and the answer is YES! But if they repented and said they were wrong - then they could not scream at everybody in camps and Campmeetings that "BLESS GOD WE HAVE NOT CHANGED!"

Praxeas
05-07-2011, 11:48 PM
It doesn't bother me a bit that some pastors ask the men in the church to be clean shaven (mine included). But i can say that if i was going to a church and the pastor didnt know the Word any better than that...i don't believe i would go back either.
It bothers me that any man would try to force members to do things they don't have to do...some people have control issues...Napoleon complex..the little god complex

kclee4jc
05-08-2011, 06:12 AM
Can we at least admit this position (that of your pastor I assume) is very complicated?

Assuming it was a good reaction to the hippie movement (I don't accept that BTW), how fast should the church be in responding to the cultural fads? Are we not a bit slow on this one? Did it take them 25 yrs to start preaching against beards and moustaches in 1960?

Not a heaven/hell issue? I agree, and would not consider shaving/not shaving because of pastoral whims. Neither would I accept instruction on circumcision/or not, nor the eating of meats and keeping of Holy Days...
It's time we asked some serious questions. Have we offended without cause those who wear facial hair? If so, we need to repent corporately and our leadership needs to grow facial hair as a sign of humility and sincere repentance.

That's fine, but you then have no place in the ministry if you will not submit to an elder. Seemed that Timothy received instruction from his pastor on circumcision.

Sister Alvear
05-08-2011, 09:01 AM
Well...I think some people need to grow up! Cultures and times change but we serve a Jesus that never changes HOWEVER He is adaptable to all people and cultures...he invites us to learn of Him who is meek and lowly in heart...or can we say humble...and gentle...

His beard was plucked so says the Bible...we do not have a direct account of how this happened but if we take it at face value he had a beard...for a Jewish man to not have his beard, it was considered humiliation. Think about the story where David's servants had half their beards shaved off (II Sam 10:4) that mixed w/ the fact that their garments were cut off above the waist, exposing their backside ended up causing a war to break out..

Now by the same reasoning I do not think men have to wear robes and sandals but to say they never did is foolish...they did and in some parts of the world still do...

I am NOT saying men should wear a beard really 99% of our men in our church do not even wear a mustashe..

I personally think a man looks nicer clean shaven but of course I am an UC...ha....
__________________

Hoovie
05-08-2011, 10:48 AM
That's fine, but you then have no place in the ministry if you will not submit to an elder. Seemed that Timothy received instruction from his pastor on circumcision.

What Timothy did to be more plausible to the Jews is one thing.

Nevertheless we have now received specific scriptural instruction on the matter.

1 Corinthians 7:18-19
18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

Notice it does not end with, ...and the personal preferences of your pastor.

Praxeas
05-08-2011, 01:43 PM
That's fine, but you then have no place in the ministry if you will not submit to an elder. Seemed that Timothy received instruction from his pastor on circumcision.
Submitting to an Elder never meant doing the silliest whims of someone else without question. It was never a license for someone to be called Elder and teach false doctrine and expect everyone to obey it

Sam
05-08-2011, 01:48 PM
I shaved when I was asked to minister at a UPC church and was scheduled for two weeks. I preached on a Sunday Morning and night and had 12 filled with the Holy Ghost and 15 baptized in a church of around 100 that had very few results in the years past. The Pastor met me for breakfast on Monday morning and said that someone had seen my web page and that I had facial hair in some of the pictures. I said that is true but when I go into places that do not have facial hair or wear jewelry or whatever, I honor their customs and traditions and I shave before I get there. He asked me if I had planned to grow the facial hair (a very short goatee) back and I said yes. He said, well - This Revival is over, you can pack and check out of the hotel today! WOW! Was I surprised and sad as I thought this man had good sense! Unbelievable! He left there soon after the meeting and has not pastored again. What is wrong with people?

Well, in my opinion
1. the pastor had a right to cancel the revival
2. it's sad that he felt that way

OfInterest
05-10-2011, 02:16 AM
As a wise woman used to say..." 'Hair' we are on hair again."

On The Wheel
05-10-2011, 10:19 AM
That's fine, but you then have no place in the ministry if you will not submit to an elder. Seemed that Timothy received instruction from his pastor on circumcision.

The instruction was for Timothy to minister to those who had not yet let the gospel free them from the bondage of enforced circumcision. Timothy was not to preach the necessity of circumcision to all new converts.

I've seen American preachers wearing traditional, native skirts in certain places in order to be more accepted in the community. It's interesting to me that these men would go against their "standards" in order to be more accepted by the less apostolically astute populace. It makes sense.

It seems that Paul asked Timothy to violate a clear apostolic stand (teaching circumcision leads to bondage) in order to reach people who had an inferior understanding of the liberty contained in the gospel message. (Galatians 5:2) Paul also stated in another case that Titus was compelled by "false brethren" to be circumcised, a condition that would lead to bondage.

So often it's the other way around. We try to force all our traditions upon others even though we know it will sour many on the gospel message before they ever get close enough to our Lord to taste the sweet.

Thoughts?

mfblume
05-10-2011, 10:26 AM
As a wise woman used to say..." 'Hair' we are on hair again."

:thumbsup It shows what is the abundance of hearts.

Sam
05-10-2011, 12:09 PM
...I've seen American preachers wearing traditional, native skirts in certain places in order to be more accepted in the community. It's interesting to me that these men would go against their "standards" in order to be more accepted by the less apostolically astute populace. It makes sense. ...


Or, some ministers will shave or take off a wedding ring or put on a necktie before ministering in a place where there is not a good understanding of grace.

Timmy
05-10-2011, 12:32 PM
Or, some ministers will shave or take off a wedding ring or put on a necktie before ministering in a place where there is not a good understanding of grace.

Is grace really a relevant concept, here? I mean, do you know of any ministers who stop committing adultery before ministering in a place where there is not a good understanding of grace? :hmmm

On The Wheel
05-10-2011, 12:42 PM
Is grace really the key concept, here? I mean, do you know of any ministers who stop committing adultery before ministering in a place where there is not a good understanding of grace? :hmmm

Are you serious?

This is why so many shun forum discussions. Logic and common sense are in such short supply. It's difficult have a discussion when apples are compared to oranges on a regular basis.

Timmy
05-10-2011, 12:57 PM
Are you serious?

This is why so many shun forum discussions. Logic and common sense are in such short supply. It's difficult have a discussion when apples are compared to oranges on a regular basis.

Huh?

MusicMaster
05-10-2011, 12:58 PM
Are you serious?

This is why so many shun forum discussions. Logic and common sense are in such short supply. It's difficult have a discussion when apples are compared to oranges on a regular basis.

Before you accuse Timmy of the lack of logic and common sense, perhaps you might want to consider that Timmy has been around a long time based on his post count. Even though he doesn't claim to be apostolic, maybe he's seen people who claim to be apostolic who come on this forum condemning everyone else for their sin publicly while trying to pick up women on the side through the private message feature.

On The Wheel
05-10-2011, 12:58 PM
Huh?

You can't compare adultery to circumcision. They don't exist in the same argumentative universe.

On The Wheel
05-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Before you accuse Timmy of the lack of logic and common sense, perhaps you might want to consider that Timmy has been around a long time based on his post count. Even though he doesn't claim to be apostolic, maybe he's seen people who claim to be apostolic who come on this forum condemning everyone else for their sin publicly while trying to pick up women on the side through the private message feature.

Perhaps I misunderstood Timmy's post. If that's so, I'll readily apologize.

Perhaps I could query as to his exact intent?

Timmy
05-10-2011, 01:07 PM
You can't compare adultery to circumcision. They don't exist in the same argumentative universe.

OK, the point of my post was not clear, so let me expound. ;)

Sam knows preachers who shave their beards off, or remove wedding rings, when they minister in places where (in his words) there is not a good understanding of grace. I think that grace would only be relevant to this discussion if, in fact, wearing a beard or a wedding ring is actually a sin. Like adultery! I think I know Sam well enough that he doesn't actually believe that (correct me if I'm wrong, Sam), nor is he accusing those preachers he mentions of hypocrisy, though mentioning grace kinda (to me) implies it, for the above reason.

I mentioned adultery as an example of something that nearly everyone agrees is sin, to contrast it with beards and rings. I doubt anyone really does what I asked about!

Better?

P.S. I didn't know circumcision had anything to do with it. Haven't read all the posts, so if that factors in, I have no idea how. ;)

On The Wheel
05-10-2011, 01:32 PM
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry to be so hair trigger.

I was responding to a post that defended purported to show how extra-biblical standards, such as required circumcision, could be lawfully imposed upon people by a pastor.

We are probably in agreement on this.

Timmy
05-10-2011, 01:56 PM
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry to be so hair trigger.

I was responding to a post that defended purported to show how extra-biblical standards, such as required circumcision, could be lawfully imposed upon people by a pastor.

We are probably in agreement on this.

:thumbsup

Sam
05-10-2011, 03:33 PM
Is grace really a relevant concept, here? I mean, do you know of any ministers who stop committing adultery before ministering in a place where there is not a good understanding of grace? :hmmm

well, they might not take their mistress with them to the service as a form of respect for rules/standards of the pastor and congregation.

Timmy
05-10-2011, 03:46 PM
well, they might not take their mistress with them to the service as a form of respect for rules/standards of the pastor and congregation.

:highfive

Sam
05-15-2011, 05:56 PM
...Sam knows preachers who shave their beards off, or remove wedding rings, when they minister in places where (in his words) there is not a good understanding of grace. ...

Yes, those were my words about not a good understanding of grace. In my opinion there are lots of stuff that should be covered by the spirit of Romans 14. In my opinion, if you believe it is wrong to wear earrings (whether a man or woman) then you should not wear them but you should not judge someone else who does. If you believe it is wrong to eat non-kosher food, then don't eat it or judge others who do. If you believe things like circumcision, tithing, sabbaths and holy days should be practiced, then do them but don't judge others who do not. In my opinion, that is grace.

A minister may shave off facial hair or remove a wedding ring or put on a neck tie or remove a necktie (cloth necklace) to go preach in some churches because it is an issue there. It may be preached about as salvational. The minister is not doing it because he/she is a hypocrite, it may be just something done to avoid a confrontation or out of respect for that pastor. However, in my opinion, if a pastor is preaching that wearing jewelry, or wearing a necktie, or not wearing a necktie, or some of that other minor outward stuff is salvational then that pastor does not have a good idea of grace. The pastor is preaching a performance based religion.

Sam
05-15-2011, 05:59 PM
While digging through some stuff I found a picture of AB in what some would consider "feminine apparel."

ThePastorsCoach
05-15-2011, 06:15 PM
While digging through some stuff I found a picture of AB in what some would consider "feminine apparel."

Lord have mercy Sam! If I would have known they were gonna take a picture and put it on the front of the Pentecostal Herald - I would have shaved my legs! LOL