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Bruce Klein
05-16-2007, 12:05 PM
Islam vs. Christianity © Bruce A. Klein, ThD 4-07

Introduction
I. Islam and Christian Fundamentalists
II. Love and Hate
III. God’s Name
IV. Jihad – War
Conclusion

This study will mainly be read by Christians, but if you are a Moslem reading this study, I do not wish to offend you. I do love you by the power that Jesus my God has given me to love you. You may be seeking proof that Jesus is really God. A true Christian can give you the proof. The proof is in our love and the signs (miracles) that follow every Christian. In the USA, many people claim to be a Christian, but many are not really Christians, they are deceivers. Many true Christians simply don’t know the Bible. They follow the ways of tradition which Jesus very strongly spoke against in His Gospels.

“And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark 16:17-18

If a person says they are a Christian and they don’t speak in tongues, they are not a Christian. ETC.

Introduction

There are real Moslems as there are real Christians. To me it seems that a person claims the religion of their parents or the religion of their country. An individual most decide for himself or herself how involved they will be with their religion. Those who really get involved based totally on their religions holy book are fundamentalists.

There are very major differences between Islam and Christianity. The differences are like between night and day. One teaches hate and murder. The other teaches love and non-violence.

Does your God have a name?

I. Islam and Christian Fundamentalists

Christianity has fundamentalists. When I was a Baptist, we considered ourselves to be fundamental Baptists, even fighting fundamentalists. Why did we consider ourselves as fundamentalists? We considered ourselves fundamentalists, because we held to strictly following the Bible. The Bible says It; I believe It; that settles it!

Islam has fundamentalists. Why do they consider themselves as fundamentalists? They consider themselves as fundamentalists, because they hold to a strict following of the Kor’an. The Kor’an says it; they believe it; that settles it! Since a Holy Jihad is taught, we will kill all Jews and infidels (pagans), so reads the Holy Kor’an.

How to Treat Infidels According to the Kor’an

Surah 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft–forgiving, Most Merciful.

Surah 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Surah 9:123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

Surah 48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, but compassionate amongst each other.

Surah 8:38-39 Say to the Unbelievers, if now they desist from Unbelief, their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already a matter of warning for them.

39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Surah 2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Surah 25:52 Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive (Jihad) against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the Qur’an.

Surah 61:9-11 It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest it.

10 O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?–

11 That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive your utmost in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew!

Surah 9:20 Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah’s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the people who will achieve salvation.

Surah 2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they first fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Surah 2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Surah 4:74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,– whether he is slain or gets victory–Soon shall We give him a reward of great value.

Surah 47:4-6 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them: thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are ye commanded: but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them Himself; but He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,– He will never let their deeds be lost.

5 Soon will He guide them and improve their condition,

6 And admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them.

Etc.



If you are a Moslem and you want to kill me, why?

Here is a prayer:

Dear God,
I want to know who you are. I want you to love me, and I want to love you. Please help me! You are God, so you are all powerful. You are everywhere; you are all knowing. I want to go to heaven. Please reveal yourself to me. Please show me your miracles. I want to serve you. I want to worship you. Dear God, thank you for listening to me. I have sinned. Please help me not to sin. I do not want to lie anymore. I want to have a spouse who loves me. I want to be apart of a loving community. Thank you for answering my prayers.

In Jesus' name, Amen


What the Holy Bible teaches about 'how to get to heaven' is found here: http://www.freewebs.com/bibleteach/h...achristian.htm


A fantastic website about Islam: http://www.allahislam.com/


Bruce Klein, MA in Islamic Studies

Bible teacher, theologian, missionary, writer

My missionary web page:
www.freewebs.com/aim_oneness

www.freewebs.com/bibleteach

Bibleteach@hotmail.com

Praxeas
05-16-2007, 06:09 PM
Thank you....you have a masters in Islamic studies?

Trouvere
05-18-2007, 01:43 AM
He does and he is probably the only known Jew who does.

Iron_Bladder
05-18-2007, 06:34 AM
If a person says they are a Christian and they don’t speak in tongues, they are not a Christian. ETC.



Bruce, I'm shocked! As nowhere does the Bible to my knowledge ever state that we must speak in tongues to be saved. Mark 16:17 was spoken to the 11 apostles as they hid in a room, the promises here arn't given to the entire Church, if it was then every Christian could heal another and there would never be any sickness in the Church, also no Christian could ever die of posioning or get food sickness etc. If tongues are necessary for salvation, then Luther, Augustine, Spurgeon, Wesley, Bunyan etc are all lost and in hell; something which appears crazy as these men were godly men who loves the Lord.

Bruce Klein
05-18-2007, 05:00 PM
Hello Iron Bladder,

At one time I was a Baptist pastor. I know what you have been taught.

The way I see things, you have a choice. You can continue to think you are right, or you can look at the verses I use to prove my points. I use proof texts just like you.

Dr. Jack Deere was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. He received the true Holy Spirit baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Dr. Hobart Freeman was a professor at Grace Theological Seminary. He wrote books used in many Bible colleges and seminaries, including Moody Bible Institute. He received the true Holy Spirit baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

These men had a lot to loose by following the Bible, but they chose truth, praise Jesus! They had wasted years studying and teaching false doctrines.

The whole issue is likened to one who does not believe there is a God. How would you prove there is a God?
"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." Mark 16:20

Iron Bladder, what signs do you have confirming the word?

You mention about healings. A Christian should not provide healing to everyone who asks. One must ask the Holy Spirit, if one should lay hands on an individual for healing.
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:5
Should a Christian lay hands on this person for healing? No.

Should a Christian cast out demons from everyone who asks? No.

What does the word 'Christian' mean?
'Christ' is Greek for annointed
'Messiah' is Hebrew for annointed
'Annointed' is English for annointed

'Christian' means 'one annointed like'

Jesus walked on earth for 30 years with no sin, right?
He could have died at that point for our sins, right?
Why didn't He, sure to fulfill prophecy, but what else?
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:" 1 Peter 2:21

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12

"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." Acts 10:38

Jesus didn't do any miracles until His example of the Holy Spirit baptism. He didn't need water baptism or the Holy Spirit baptism; He is God. They were simply examples for our following. He was led by the Spirit into the desert. ... He gave us examples of casting out demons, healing the sick, etc. One cannot do these miracles until one has the true baptism of the Holy Spirit.


"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

I give the above verse to show you I know the punishment for lying.

I have laid hands on a man with aids in a hospital in MN. He was healed.
I have laid hands on a lady with a tumor on the front of her head and back, healed.
I have laid hands on many as a missionary in China, Uganda, etc. healed.
The list can go on ....

I have cast demons out of many.

Before I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it would take me hours to write a message. Now, I can have a message in minutes.


You can find salvation truth based on Jesus' Word at:

http://www.freewebs.com/bibleteach/index.htm

In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

Trouvere
05-18-2007, 09:49 PM
Bruce, I'm shocked! As nowhere does the Bible to my knowledge ever state that we must speak in tongues to be saved. Mark 16:17 was spoken to the 11 apostles as they hid in a room, the promises here arn't given to the entire Church, if it was then every Christian could heal another and there would never be any sickness in the Church, also no Christian could ever die of posioning or get food sickness etc. If tongues are necessary for salvation, then Luther, Augustine, Spurgeon, Wesley, Bunyan etc are all lost and in hell; something which appears crazy as these men were godly men who loves the Lord.


1.The bible says in Mark that signs followed the believers. One of these signs was that they shall speak with new tongues.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;


2.In Acts 2 when the Holy Ghost feel upon the believers they spoke with other tongues.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

fell on all them which heard the word.

3Peter used the tongues that fell upon the Gentile believers as evidence that they had been received by God even though they were strangers to the house of Isreal.They heard them speak with tonguesActs 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,


Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

4.Simon the Sorcerer wanted to give the Apostles money that he might be able to lay hands and people receive the Holy Ghost.He evidently saw and outward manifestation or else he would not have wanted to pay.I say if no evidence was present then he would not have offered to pay.

Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.


5.Paul met believers who were only baptized with Johns baptism which was of repentance.They still needed to be baptized in Jesus
and when Paul laid his hands on them they spoke with tongues and prophesied.Prophecy alone was not the sign but tongues was the sign.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.


Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.


There are too many witnesses in the Word of God to ignore that if a person is a true believer that they will speak with tongues as the Holy Ghost is poured out on them.They may never do it again or only do it occasionally but when one receives the Holy Ghost the tongues follow.

This is not to be confused with the gift of tongues.This is concerning the gift of the Holy Ghost.A person with the Holy Ghost may have the gift of tongues or divers tongues as we know it but a person will never have the gift of tongues and not the Holy Ghost as there is no scriptural support for it.

Sister Phyllis
05-19-2007, 03:44 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------



Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

The Birth of the Church



(Acts 2:1-4 KJV)

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

{2} And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

{3} And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

{4} And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.



INTRODUCTION



The church began on the Day of Pentecost without many of the things that people today often think characterize a church. They had no pews, stained glass, or pulpits.

They did not even have a permanent church building. What they did have, however, was the outpouring of the Holy Ghost!



Revival has never been contingent on buildings or the lack of buildings.

Though it is natural for us to desire to provide for people a pleasant place of worship, God is sovereign and can operate His church with or without church buildings!



When the church was born on the Day of Pentecost there were no radio programs, no newspaper ads, no mass mail campaigns, and no bus ministries.

But there were excited people who were ready to spread the good news of the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost!

We can do the same today.



I. THE PROMISE



(Acts 1:4-5 KJV) And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. {5} For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



Prophets of the Old Testament, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ all foretold the outpouring of the Holy Ghost. The promised Spirit outpouring first came upon only 120 faithful followers who had obeyed the command of Jesus to tarry in Jerusalem for the promised gift.




A. Obedience



It is never enough only to hear the commands of Jesus, for He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).



The parable of the two houses, one built on the rock and the other on the sand, clearly demonstrates the necessity of obedience.

(See Matthew 7:24-27; Luke 6:46-49.)

The parable pictures two types of people.

Both heard the Word of God, but only one obeyed it. The one who built on the rock is like one who hears the Word and obeys, but the one who built on the sand is like someone who hears the Word and disobeys.



The disciples of Jesus both heard His command to tarry for the promise of the Father and waited until the Spirit came! (See Acts 1:12-13.)


B. Tarrying



In tarrying for the promised Spirit outpouring, the disciples revealed their complete willingness to obey the words of Christ. It also gave them an opportunity to search their hearts for any unrepented sins and to prepare their hearts with faith and worship to receive the Holy Ghost.



Today, a person who is ready to receive the Holy Ghost can receive Him immediately.

While it is not necessary in our day to go through a specific time of tarrying to receive the Holy Spirit, it is still vital that we prepare our hearts to receive the Spirit.

Like the first disciples, we must repent of our sins, be baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins , worship God, and obey His Word to receive the Holy Ghost.



We should never dismiss the importance and necessity of repentance,

even though a person may quickly receive the Holy Ghost. Nor should we criticize those who do not receive the Spirit as quickly as others.

Possibly they are settling personal issues in their own mind and heart.

What is important is that people believe in the personal promise of the Spirit, and that they can receive Him anytime and anywhere they reach out to Him in faith.



The early believers continued worshiping and waiting until they were filled.

"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren"

(Acts 1:14).



II. THE PROMISE FULFILLED



For several days the disciples of Jesus were together as they waited to receive the promise of the Father.

They had come to Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost.

The feast, held on the fiftieth day after the beginning of Passover, was a time for Jews to celebrate the grain harvest, and to bring offerings from their harvest and offer them up to God.

The streets were crowded with people who had come to the city for this important Jewish celebration.



Little did they realize how life changing the celebration of Pentecost would be this particular year!

It would begin a new era in God’s historical revelation of Himself, a time in which people from every race, nation, and language could know God personally and intimately.



In unity the disciples of Christ

waited in an upper room

until the fiftieth day after Passover,

until the Day of Pentecost "was fully come."



A. The Upper Room



(Acts 1:13 KJV)

And when they were come in,

they went up into an upper room…

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place"

(Acts 2:1).



B. The Outpouring

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come…"

(Acts 2:1).



"Was fully come" - literally, "was being fulfilled"-

The Pentecost outpouring fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost, the celebration of the harvest.



(Acts 2:2-4 KJV)

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

{3} And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

{4} And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.



Throughout history, people at various times had close communion with God, but no Old Testament relationship, regardless how spectacular the event, compared with the experience God gave to His church.

Even the Incarnation had predictable limitations…

As a man, Jesus could only be with people at a given place and time.

But by His coming as the Holy Spirit, God was in His people! (See John 14:17.)



At Pentecost,

those who received God’s Spirit

became His children by a new birth. Therefore, it should not seem unusual that

God would give a clear tangible sign of His new relationship to His people.

Those who received the Holy Ghost spoke with other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. Isaiah had foretold this unique sign of the Spirit hundreds of years before:

"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" Isaiah 28:11).



Tongues still are the sign of individuals receiving the Holy Ghost.

The account in the Book of Acts of the first people receiving the Holy Spirit set the pattern for the church in all generations, races, and cultures.

The Jews spoke with tongues on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4, 39).

The Gentiles spoke with tongues as

Peter preached the gospel

to Cornelius and his household

(Acts 10:44-48).

It is also apparent that the Samaritans spoke with tongues when Peter and John laid hands on them and prayed,

for Simon saw visible signs when they received the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:14-19).

The Ephesians spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Ghost (Acts 19:1-6).

Even Paul the apostle acknowledged speaking with other tongues:

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (I Corinthians 14:18).

Sister Phyllis
05-19-2007, 03:47 PM
III. THE PROMISE PREACHED



A. The First Pentecostal Sermon



(Acts 2:5 KJV) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.



How many people were in Jerusalem at the time of the first outpouring of the Holy Ghost? Though we may not know for certain, we do know that a great throng of people had gathered from all areas in Israel and from Gentile nations where Jews were living.



Some estimate that as many as three million people would be in Jerusalem on a typical Feast of Pentecost in those days.

Of course the exact number remains uncertain, but we can safely assume that at least a few hundred thousand people were in Jerusalem to celebrate the feast.



(Acts 2:6-8 KJV) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

{7} And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?



{8} And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?



(Acts 2:12-13 KJV) And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

{13} Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

When Peter stood to preach and addressed the crowd gathered around them, he not only assured the people of the sobriety of the disciples, also explained to them, "What meaneth this."



(Acts 2:14 KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:



1. The Sobriety of the Disciples (Acts 2:14-15).



Some people in the crowd voiced concerns as to the sobriety of the disciples, suggesting that they were drunk. (Acts 2:15 KJV)

For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. They were not drunk with wine; it was too early to be drunk since it was only nine o’clock in the morning.

They were not under the influence of alcohol, but they were under the influence of the Holy Spirit they had received!



2. A Biblical Experience (Acts 2:16-21).



The experience of Pentecost was not extra biblical.

Peter pointed to Joel’s prophecy to validate the experience. (See Joel 2:28-29.)



"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,

I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" (Acts 2:16-18).



Other prophets also had prophesied of the Spirit’s coming (Isaiah 28:11; Jeremiah 31:31),

and their predictions of Pentecost forged an undeniable biblical authority for receiving the Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost.

Likewise, our spiritual experiences today must be biblical. We cannot base our lives on unbiblical testimonies. Spiritual experiences must conform to scriptural teaching.



3. The Ministry and Person of Jesus (Acts 2:22).


The Scriptures also testify to the miraculous ministry of Jesus Christ:



"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know" (Acts 2:22).



4. The Death of Jesus (Acts 2:23).



Peter preached of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross.

He boldly declared,



"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,

ye have taken,

and by wicked hands have crucified and slain"

(Acts 2:23).



The preaching of this truth brought intense conviction into the hearts of those who heard.



(Acts 2:37 KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart…



5. The Resurrection of Jesus (Acts 2:24-36).



(Acts 2:24 KJV) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should beholden of it.



Miracles, wonders, and signs followed Jesus, pointing to His uniqueness in ministry.

But it was His resurrection that pointed to His deity.



The death of Jesus on the cross is a vital part of the gospel message,

but it is not Christ’s death only that saves us.

It is His life and resurrection!



(Acts 2:33 KJV) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.



(Acts 2:36 KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



Peter’s emphasis clearly was not on a dead savior,

but on a living,

resurrected Christ! He whom God raised from the dead secured the promise of the Spirit for us, and the Spirit’s witness of this event affirmed Jesus’ resurrection and deity: He is both Lord and Christ, both God and the Christ in whom God lives.



Many of the same people who a few weeks before demanded His death with the words, "Crucify Him, Crucify Him," were now convicted deeply as Peter preached the resurrection of Christ.



(Acts 2:37 KJV)

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart,

and said unto

Peter and to the rest of the apostles,

Men and brethren, what shall we do?



How similar to the Old Testament story of Joseph and his brothers! Joseph’s brothers rejoiced to see him gone, and they hoped to be rid of him forever. As far as the brothers were concerned he was dead, but Joseph was very much alive!



When the brothers bowed as they approached the ruler in charge of grain in Egypt, little did they realize it was their own brother. When they found out that Joseph was the ruler, they were moved with guilt and fear.



When the people realized that

they had crucified the Messiah of mankind,

they were cut clear to the heart.

They had not been spiritually bothered by Jesus’ crucifixion, but like Joseph’s brothers, they were terribly disturbed when they found out that He was alive! Unwittingly, they had crucified the Lord of glory!



B. Gladly Receiving the Word



But, hearing the Word of God preached created both faith and conviction in the hearts of the people, and they responded in faith with a desire to be saved.

The response one has to the message of salvation is the difference between eternal salvation and damnation.

The decision should be easy.

These hearers in Jerusalem responded properly to the preached Word of God, and they continued to follow in obedience. (See Acts 2:41.)



C. Adding to the Church



Of the great number of people present, 3,000 of them, after seeing the event,

hearing

Peter’s message, and being convicted of their sins,

believed

and were baptized on that day!

"Praising God, and having favor with all the people.

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).



It is God’s will to add people to His church.

A healthy church is one that regularly and

consistently leads people to be transformed

by God’s power.





CONCLUSION



The beginning of the church was the great spiritual event that changed the relationship between God and mankind.

The church began with

the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, and it continues today with the same experience offered to all people.

Sister Phyllis
05-19-2007, 03:48 PM
The Holy Ghost was promised by various Old Testament prophets as well as by John the Baptist and Jesus Christ in the New Testament. This promise for which mankind had longed was fulfilled when the Spirit came at Pentecost.

Since that day, the Holy Ghost is not only a fulfilled historical promise of God, but a promise that is still received wherever the gospel is preached. It was not an exclusive promise for the Jews or for those present on the Day of Pentecost but a promise for whosoever will, to all who will believe.



"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).



The early church set the pattern for us to follow.

They faced rejection and ridicule for the sake of the gospel, and at times we also shall face the same kind of opposition.

We cannot seek to please men, but the Lord Jesus Christ. If we follow the plan He set up for the church as revealed and preached by the apostles,

we will hear Him say,

"Well done!"



The new-birth experience is the same today as on the Day of Pentecost!

There is only one way to be saved and that is to follow Acts 2:38 - Repent, and be baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is a command and is the plan of salvation .

The old way is still the right way, and obedience to the gospel message is still the way to salvation. If we love Jesus Christ, we will obey His commandments and experience the new birth.



Have you followed in obedience the plan God gave us in the His Holy Word to be saved?

If you have not please consider it!

Read for yourself what God's word says in Acts 2:38,39 and pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal to you this wonderful plan of salvation . You will not regret it and know my friend that there is only God , not three gods and Gods name is Jesus .

All power is in the name of Jesus .

Only He can save you ,

heal you and deliver you

and set you free .

He is the only one who will give you peace and joy.

I know for I have received Him into my heart and life and followed in obedience acts 2:38

Once one does that then we must endure to the end and one day

we will meet Jesus

face to face

and oh what a wonderful glorious day that will be .

Timmy
05-22-2007, 09:09 AM
“And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark 16:17-18

If a person says they are a Christian and they don’t speak in tongues, they are not a Christian. ETC.


Then, if you do not take up serpents, you are not a Christian. Drink some poison. If you are harmed, you are not a Christian. If you lay hands on the sick and they do not recover, that would prove you are not a Christian.

I'm just using your own logic. You cannot take part of that scripture and make the statement you did, without also applying the rest of it in the same way.

(Or is that what you meant by "ETC"? Do you drink poison? Does every single sick person you lay hands on recover?)

BTW, don't drink poison. It's not really a good way to find out if you are a Christian!

Sister Phyllis
05-23-2007, 05:06 AM
Then, if you do not take up serpents, you are not a Christian. Drink some poison. If you are harmed, you are not a Christian. If you lay hands on the sick and they do not recover, that would prove you are not a Christian.

I'm just using your own logic. You cannot take part of that scripture and make the statement you did, without also applying the rest of it in the same way.

(Or is that what you meant by "ETC"? Do you drink poison? Does every single sick person you lay hands on recover?)

BTW, don't drink poison. It's not really a good way to find out if you are a Christian!

You have to be careful how you interpret that verse of Scripture .It does not mean thatyou go out there and deliverably take of a serpent or drink poison to see if God will heal you .That would be putting God to the test What it is saying I feel is that if someone lets say like our missionaries get bit by a snake or drink by accident some poison drink the Lord can heal them if he so desires He is all sufficient but we dontgo around trying or testing ourLord It does not mean that if you are not healed from this you are not a christian mercy The Lord will do what is best for each of us and according to His will okay but He is able to deliver and heal and save when we ask Him . The bible tells us that with HIS stripes we are healed and I look at this verse in this way we are healed whether that takes place here or when we get to heaven one way or another we ill be healed and so I claim healing in Jesus name and have faith in Him to accomplish His will in my life

God bless
sister phyllis

Sister Phyllis
05-23-2007, 05:17 AM
Then, if you do not take up serpents, you are not a Christian. Drink some poison. If you are harmed, you are not a Christian. If you lay hands on the sick and they do not recover, that would prove you are not a Christian.

I'm just using your own logic. You cannot take part of that scripture and make the statement you did, without also applying the rest of it in the same way.

(Or is that what you meant by "ETC"? Do you drink poison? Does every single sick person you lay hands on recover?)

BTW, don't drink poison. It's not really a good way to find out if you are a Christian!


Mar 16:18 -

Take up serpents - Several MSS. add εν ταις χερσιν, in their hands - shall be enabled to give, when such a proof may be serviceable to the cause of truth, this evidence of their being continually under the power and protection of God, and that all nature is subject to him. This also was literally fulfilled in the case of Paul, Act_28:5.
If they drink any deadly thing - Θανασιμον (φαρμακον) being understood - if they should through mistake, or accident, drink any poisonous matter, their constant preserver will take care that it shall not injure them. See a similar promise, Isa_43:2.
They shall lay hands on the sick - And I will convey a healing power by their hands, so that the sick shall recover, and men shall see that these are sent and acknowledged by the Most High. Several instances of this kind are found in the Acts of the Apostles.

That the apostles of our Lord should not lose their lives by poison is most fully asserted in this verse, and there is neither record nor tradition to disprove this. But it is worthy of remark, that Mohammed, who styled himself The Apostle Of God, lost his life by poison; and had he been a true apostle of God, he could not have fallen by it.

Mar 16:17 σημεια signs 4592 N-NPN δε And 1161 CONJ τοις them 3588 T-DPM πιστευσασιν that believe 4100 V-AAP-DPM ταυτα these 5023 D-NPN παρακολουθησει shall follow, 3877 V-FAI-3S εν In 1722 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN μου my 3450 P-1GS δαιμονια devils 1140 N-APN εκβαλουσιν shall they cast out 1544 V-FAI-3P γλωσσαις tongues 1100 N-DPF λαλησουσιν they shall speak 2980 V-FAI-3P καιναις with new. 2537 A-DPF

Mar 16:18 οφεις serpents 3789 N-APM αρουσιν They shall take up 142 V-FAI-3P καν and if 2579 COND-C θανασιμον deadly thing 2286 A-ASN τι any 5100 X-ASN πιωσιν they drink 4095 V-2AAS-3P ου 3756 PRT-N μη 3361 PRT-N αυτους them 846 P-APM βλαψει hurt, 984 V-FAI-3S επι on 1909 PREP αρρωστους the sick 732 A-APM χειρας hands 5495 N-APF επιθησουσιν they shall lay 2007 V-FAI-3P και and 2532 CONJ καλως 2573 ADV εξουσιν they shall recover. 2192 V-FAI-3P

God bless
sister phyllis

Trouvere
05-23-2007, 05:38 AM
haha...Sister Phyllis,
You typed,"Mohammed, who styled himself The Apostle Of God, lost his life by poison; and had he been a true apostle of God, he could not have fallen by it."

I have to say this witty.

Timmy
05-23-2007, 07:32 AM
You have to be careful how you interpret that verse of Scripture .It does not mean thatyou go out there and deliverably take of a serpent or drink poison to see if God will heal you .That would be putting God to the test What it is saying I feel is that if someone lets say like our missionaries get bit by a snake or drink by accident some poison drink the Lord can heal them if he so desires He is all sufficient but we dontgo around trying or testing ourLord It does not mean that if you are not healed from this you are not a christian mercy The Lord will do what is best for each of us and according to His will okay but He is able to deliver and heal and save when we ask Him . The bible tells us that with HIS stripes we are healed and I look at this verse in this way we are healed whether that takes place here or when we get to heaven one way or another we ill be healed and so I claim healing in Jesus name and have faith in Him to accomplish His will in my life

God bless
sister phyllis

Thanks, Sister Phyllis. I agree with some of what you say. My point was that Bruce has twisted this scripture (IMO) to say it requires Christians to speak in tongues, without also taking the rest of this list as requirements. The part that says "if" (the poison drinking) could be left off and dealt with in the way you talk about (accident), but the rest of the items, using "shall", are on the same footing as tongues.

If Bruce is correct, then a Christian must speak in tongues. Then presumably, he must also take up serpents, must cast out devils, must lay hands on the sick (who must then recover). Otherwise he is not a Christian. Also, if someone does die from poison, by Bruce's reasoning, he was not a Christian.

Haven't seen a reply from Bruce yet, and perhaps he does all these things. If so, he must be one of the very few real Christians there are in the world. (Remember, every single sick person must recover, or he's not a Christian, by his reasoning. And he must take up serpents, and I don't think harmless garden snakes count!)

Here's my take (FWIW). This is a list of signs that will follow. Not a list of requirements, and that includes tongues! Further, I think the signs (true signs) have fallen off since NT times a great deal, perhaps to zero. I've seen enough fakes and frauds that pretty much every story of miraculous signs are now suspect.

Note: I said perhaps to zero, and pretty much every story! I am open-minded about this, but very skeptical. For that, blame the frauds, if you folks really do have the real thing! I myself have experienced what I thought were healings, and perhaps they were. But I think today, God's work is done in the vast majority of cases through the hands of man: caring for and helping each other in love, charities, medicine, etc.

Bruce Klein
05-24-2007, 01:30 PM
Hello Timmy,

Mark 16:16-18

“Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved; whoever does not trust will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who do trust: in my name they will drive out demons, speak with new tongues, 18 not be injured if they handle snakes or drink poison, and heal the sick by laying hands on them." Mark 16:16-17 The Complete Jewish Bible by Dr. David Stern, the last I heard he was not Charismatic. He learned Greek at Fuller Theological Seminary.

Dr. Stern gives the proper translation from Greek to English.


King James Version
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mark 16:16-18


Believing and baptism is required for salvation. Many try to pervert this phrase. What does it say???? John 3:5

These signs will follow them that believe:

They will cast out devils.

They will speak with new tongues.

If they take up serpents/snakes, they will not be injured.

If they drink poison, they will not be injured.

They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


In another post I dealt with not laying hands on just anyone.


Friend, in Greek or English just read the Words and believe. Paul picked-up a snake which bit him. Was he injured? Why not? Could it have been a miracle? I know you believe it was a miracle. Miracles still happen today. Maybe you need to find the right church?


Mar 16:17 σημεια signs 4592 N-NPN δε And 1161 CONJ τοις them 3588 T-DPM πιστευσασιν that believe 4100 V-AAP-DPM ταυτα these 5023 D-NPN παρακολουθησει shall follow, 3877 V-FAI-3S εν In 1722 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN μου my 3450 P-1GS δαιμονια devils 1140 N-APN εκβαλουσιν shall they cast out 1544 V-FAI-3P γλωσσαις tongues 1100 N-DPF λαλησουσιν they shall speak 2980 V-FAI-3P καιναις with new. 2537 A-DPF
Mar 16:18 οφεις serpents 3789 N-APM αρουσιν They shall take up 142 V-FAI-3P καν and if 2579 COND-C θανασιμον deadly thing 2286 A-ASN τι any 5100 X-ASN πιωσιν they drink 4095 V-2AAS-3P ου 3756 PRT-N μη 3361 PRT-N αυτους them 846 P-APM βλαψει hurt, 984 V-FAI-3S επι on 1909 PREP αρρωστους the sick 732 A-APM χειρας hands 5495 N-APF επιθησουσιν they shall lay 2007 V-FAI-3P και and 2532 CONJ καλως 2573 ADV εξουσιν they shall recover. 2192 V-FAI-3P Stephanus 1550



In Jesus,
Brother Bruce

Walks_in_islam
03-26-2009, 07:34 AM
Where is this from: HINT - not the Quran

"....then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death...."

Don't bother to explain context, as I am fully aware that this is only part but not all of the text of this and associated verses.

The caution here is that taken out of context, there are many, many verses in the Bible that (given a little time and energy) can be strung together out of context, like these lines from the Quran, to cause an unlearned person to interpret the Bible in a negative light or even use the out-of-context passages for their own personal, political, or financial ends. Rather than do this thing, why not suggest "read the Quran for yourself" Surah by Surah and line by line. Then determine for yourself what the Quran means. Handing out a few crumbs then boldly stating that these crumbs represent the Quran, rather than suggesting "read this book" implies a fear of the Quran and a fear of the audience actually educating themselves in what the book actually says.

It is as foolish to blindly follow a radical minister as it is to blindly follow a radical Imam. Followers of both Islam and Christianity are guilty, equally so, of this foolishness. Islam was not spread by a sword and those who have corrupted Islam with violence neither represent followers of the Quran nor the teachings of the Prophet.

The (5) pillars of Islam are:

1. Belief in the one and only one true God and the worship of none other (familiar?)
2. Prayer. Regular, daily prayer. (familiar?)
3. Fasting. There are both required and recommended fasting times. (familiar?)
4. Charity. It is required that a specific portion of your income and property must go to charity. Preference is in physical goods to the truly needy. (familiar?)
5. Return to roots. Every Muslim, if able, is required to make at least one prigramage to Mecca, site of a place of worship to God originally built by Abraham. This is a requirement of the Prophet but I do not believe this is specifically required in the Quran.

See extra things on the news shows? It represents the few thousand out of over a billion Muslims who have taken bits and pieces of teachings and strung them together for their own ends. See comments above on that subject.

Trouvere
03-26-2009, 11:10 AM
Surely you have not received revelation on the One true God Jesus Christ or you
would not even stoop to defend Islam. Islam is not a nice candy coated religon as it is painted. It is a religon of hatred for all unbelievers and friend that would be us the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. That cannot be refuted.

JN Anderson
03-26-2009, 12:52 PM
Bro. Klein, thanks for your contributions to this thread. I hope you don't mind me saving some of this information. Godspeed!

Praxeas
03-26-2009, 01:15 PM
Where is this from: HINT - not the Quran

"....then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death...."

Don't bother to explain context, as I am fully aware that this is only part but not all of the text of this and associated verses.

The caution here is that taken out of context, there are many, many verses in the Bible that (given a little time and energy) can be strung together out of context, like these lines from the Quran, to cause an unlearned person to interpret the Bible in a negative light or even use the out-of-context passages for their own personal, political, or financial ends. Rather than do this thing, why not suggest "read the Quran for yourself" Surah by Surah and line by line. Then determine for yourself what the Quran means. Handing out a few crumbs then boldly stating that these crumbs represent the Quran, rather than suggesting "read this book" implies a fear of the Quran and a fear of the audience actually educating themselves in what the book actually says.

It is as foolish to blindly follow a radical minister as it is to blindly follow a radical Imam. Followers of both Islam and Christianity are guilty, equally so, of this foolishness. Islam was not spread by a sword and those who have corrupted Islam with violence neither represent followers of the Quran nor the teachings of the Prophet.

The (5) pillars of Islam are:

1. Belief in the one and only one true God and the worship of none other (familiar?)
2. Prayer. Regular, daily prayer. (familiar?)
3. Fasting. There are both required and recommended fasting times. (familiar?)
4. Charity. It is required that a specific portion of your income and property must go to charity. Preference is in physical goods to the truly needy. (familiar?)
5. Return to roots. Every Muslim, if able, is required to make at least one prigramage to Mecca, site of a place of worship to God originally built by Abraham. This is a requirement of the Prophet but I do not believe this is specifically required in the Quran.

See extra things on the news shows? It represents the few thousand out of over a billion Muslims who have taken bits and pieces of teachings and strung them together for their own ends. See comments above on that subject.
Do you think there are as many "radical" Christian pastors as there are Islamic leaders? There are no Christian nations where you can be stoned or beaten to death if you are a 13 year old girl that was gang raped by 3 men.

While I understand there are moderate Muslims, unfortunately there are either not enough, they are too weak or they are too silent. Your post? I think the ones that need to hear it are not Christians but those radical muslims. And rather than try to preach to us, stand up and denounce those radical segments if Islam.

On the other matters:
We know we are saved. We know we have eternal life. We don't have to go through life wondering if we have done enough goodness to merit salvation.

Yes we believe in One True God. Is He the same God as Islam? By comparison it does not seem He is.

Regular daily prayer? That is essential, but we are not earning our way to heaven by doing so.

Fasting? Required? Again, no. We don't have special days that we are commanded or forced to fast on. We fast for a different reason. In fact much of what we do is not about fearful obedience, earning our way to heaven or a fear of going to hell. It's about Love. We love God, so we have a relationship with God. We want to do things that draw us closer to God and maintain that closeness. And at the same time we love each other and try to be strong for each other. IF someone has a need, we pray for that person. Fasting helps to increase our faith as well.

Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.

Have you been to Mecca? Have you circled around the Kaaba? Kissed it? Do you bow facing Mecca in worship? When we worship we bow in our hearts and we are facing God in heaven. He is the object of our worship. We have no idols. Do you know what the Kaaba was before Muhammed started Islam?

JN Anderson
03-26-2009, 02:39 PM
Do you know what the Kaaba was before Muhammed started Islam?

Million dollar question. :thumbsup

Walks_in_islam
03-27-2009, 04:07 AM
Do you think there are as many "radical" Christian pastors as there are Islamic leaders?

There are radicals on both sides. I think both are wrong. I think there are more radical imams than radical pastors. I think there are more christian pastors who are adulterers, thieves and child molesters than there are imams who are the same. As christians as a whole cannot be judged by adulterers, thieves, and child molesters - Muslim as a whole cannot be judged by radicals who hijack bits and pieces of the Quran for their own personal power or gain. Thank you for asking me what I think.

There are no Christian nations where you can be stoned or beaten to death if you are a 13 year old girl that was gang raped by 3 men.

More are beaten, shot, robbed, stabbed, assualted, raped, burglarized, and killed by drunk drivers in Houston, where I am from, than Saudi Arabia, where I live now, in spite of what Fox News or whatever right wing news programs you watch actually choose to cover as news.

While I understand there are moderate Muslims, unfortunately there are either not enough, they are too weak or they are too silent. Your post? I think the ones that need to hear it are not Christians but those radical muslims. And rather than try to preach to us, stand up and denounce those radical segments if Islam.

I did not preach. I offered another side to this debate, which I did not start, along with a caution about taking bits and pieces of material out of context then extrapolating an "us vs. them" case about it for no purpose but to (1) spread a message of hate and bigotry and (2) self-gratification.

On the other matters:
We know we are saved. We know we have eternal life. We don't have to go through life wondering if we have done enough goodness to merit salvation.

Faith without works is dead. The Quran states that all will be judged according to their deeds. Where is this from?

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

The Bible also says so. Your words reflect neither.


Yes we believe in One True God. Is He the same God as Islam? By comparison it does not seem He is.

If you to the same God that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Noah, Job, Ezekiel, Elias, Elisha, Jesus, John, Zekeriah, Johah, David, and Soloman prayed to, then you pray to the same God.

Regular daily prayer? That is essential, but we are not earning our way to heaven by doing so.

You said prayer is essential. I said it is a required part of a religious life.

Fasting? Required? Again, no. We don't have special days that we are commanded or forced to fast on. We fast for a different reason. In fact much of what we do is not about fearful obedience, earning our way to heaven or a fear of going to hell. It's about Love. We love God, so we have a relationship with God. We want to do things that draw us closer to God and maintain that closeness. And at the same time we love each other and try to be strong for each other. IF someone has a need, we pray for that person. Fasting helps to increase our faith as well.

Fasting is required in Judism and Islam. There are 56 references to fasting in the Old Testament and 30 in the New Testament. All of the above mentioned Messengers of God practiced fasting. Again, your words do not reflect the deeds of those who were sent by God to teach you. Including Jesus who also fasted.

Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.

Giving a portion of your income or wealth to charity or back to God's work has been practiced by worshipers of the true God since the time of Abraham. Of course you do not have to do this, but this was practiced by the Prophets of God. We choose to emulate and follow the practices outlined since that time.

Have you been to Mecca? Have you circled around the Kaaba? Kissed it? Do you bow facing Mecca in worship? When we worship we bow in our hearts and we are facing God in heaven. He is the object of our worship. We have no idols. Do you know what the Kaaba was before Muhammed started Islam?

The Kaaba started as a place of worship of God by Abraham. It was turned into a place for worship of idols. Among other things, Mohammed toppled the last idol (Hubbal) and declared this for all time to be a place for worship of God only.



I did not wish to start a debate.

Timmy
03-27-2009, 01:15 PM
:popcorn2

JN Anderson
03-27-2009, 04:16 PM
I did not wish to start a debate.

Then why would you post such material on a Christian forum? I read your posts and felt a strong Islamic bias. Why would you be unwilling to support your views?

Walks_in_islam
03-27-2009, 09:31 PM
Of course I am willing to support my views. Are you implying that the posted material, most of which comes directly from the Bible itself and in all cases references passages from the Bible itself, is in some way wrong, or offensive, or in some way spreads a message of hate or division?

There is a difference between calling out the OP who originally strung along out-of-context passages from the Quran and starting an agument to no purpose or cause. As to Islam and what Muslims believe, certainly the online readers are entitled to know what Muslims believe, what the Quran teaches Muslims to do, and what Islam is before jumping into a "one vs the other" discussion. There are more parallels between Christianity and Islam that can be counted. I offer that I have pointed out a few.

If you are in fact offended because I referenced cases of "bad apples" among Christians to make the point that Muslims experience the same practice do accept my apology. In no way was that intended to be interpreted as me or anyone I know extrapolating these cases of "bad apples" to the entire Christian faith.

Then why would you post such material on a Christian forum? I read your posts and felt a strong Islamic bias. Why would you be unwilling to support your views?

Walks_in_islam
03-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Your words: Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.

God's words, from your Bible:

"How have ye robbed me? In tithes and offerings"

In Islam, Charity is a requirement.

Praxeas
03-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Of course I am willing to support my views. Are you implying that the posted material, most of which comes directly from the Bible itself and in all cases references passages from the Bible itself, is in some way wrong, or offensive, or in some way spreads a message of hate or division?

There is a difference between calling out the OP who originally strung along out-of-context passages from the Quran and starting an agument to no purpose or cause. As to Islam and what Muslims believe, certainly the online readers are entitled to know what Muslims believe, what the Quran teaches Muslims to do, and what Islam is before jumping into a "one vs the other" discussion. There are more parallels between Christianity and Islam that can be counted. I offer that I have pointed out a few.

If you are in fact offended because I referenced cases of "bad apples" among Christians to make the point that Muslims experience the same practice do accept my apology. In no way was that intended to be interpreted as me or anyone I know extrapolating these cases of "bad apples" to the entire Christian faith.
In Islam, in the Quran, did God make a covenant with a certain people? In the bible He made a covenant with Israel and gave a specific law.

Yet in the bible we are told that same God made a NEW covenant, not like the old one. You are quoting from the old one. My question is, has this occured in Islam? Are or were the laws and judgements of Islam ever changed or set aside by God?

Praxeas
03-28-2009, 03:59 PM
Your words: Charity is again, not a requirement. Rather Charity, is or should be an ATTRIBUTE or the result of having a genuine conversion. We give because we want to, not because we are required to.

God's words, from your Bible:

"How have ye robbed me? In tithes and offerings"

In Islam, Charity is a requirement.
you just took God's word out of context. First of all this was not about merely charitable contributions. Second this was in the OT. Third, that God said this does not make it a requirement in the way you might be using it. Such as a pre-requisite or something one must do in order to possibly merit salvation.

Christians do such things because we Love God, just like a family member wants to help out another. A person that helps out a family member only because he thinks it is his duty is not doing it out of love.

Walks_in_islam
03-29-2009, 07:13 AM
I contend that I bounce between the "old one" and the "new one" (even though it is one book?). God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, right?

We are back to prayer, fasting, charity, belief in one God is somehow "wrong".

What else then is taught in your own church that defines a "christian" life?

You do not fear, but "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"
You do not tithe but "you rob me in tithes and offerings"
You are saved by faith but your actions do not matter - yet "the dead, small and great, were judged from the books according to their works"
You spread hate and bigotry by degrading Muslims, Muslim families, and Islam on this board by referring to them as wife-beaters and worse, yet use "the rod of correction" and "sparing the rod spoils the child" on your own children. Or not, which then implies that you do not follow that either.

You in one hand says god says something (specifically says something) then in the other say "but its not required for salvation". What is God's law for then?

You on one hand say prayer is "essential" but then say it is not "required" as a daily part of life. Yet Jesus himself specifically taught and outlined how to pray.

Do you people stand firm on anything? Does that book you are taught from actually mean anything? How in the world can you so flippantly pick apart and decide what God means or doesn't mean out the words He has given to you?

What you call "charitable contribution" is in fact equivalent to a tithe as it is calculated on a percentage. We believe it and take it as mandatory.



you just took God's word out of context. First of all this was not about merely charitable contributions. Second this was in the OT. Third, that God said this does not make it a requirement in the way you might be using it. Such as a pre-requisite or something one must do in order to possibly merit salvation.

Christians do such things because we Love God, just like a family member wants to help out another. A person that helps out a family member only because he thinks it is his duty is not doing it out of love.

Praxeas
04-13-2009, 06:48 PM
I contend that I bounce between the "old one" and the "new one" (even though it is one book?). God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, right?

We are back to prayer, fasting, charity, belief in one God is somehow "wrong".

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Nobody said prayer, fasting, charity and belief in one God was wrong. I don't know you think you we are but we pray, fast, give and believe in one God

What else then is taught in your own church that defines a "christian" life?

You do not fear, but "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"
How would you know? Yes we fear God

You do not tithe but "you rob me in tithes and offerings"
AGain, how would you know? Yes we DO tithe and give offerings.

So far your batting average is not very good


You are saved by faith but your actions do not matter - yet "the dead, small and great, were judged from the books according to their works"
0 for 3. Yes our actions DO matter. Are you serious? Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

You spread hate and bigotry by degrading Muslims, Muslim families, and Islam on this board by referring to them as wife-beaters and worse, yet use "the rod of correction" and "sparing the rod spoils the child" on your own children. Or not, which then implies that you do not follow that either.
We speak the truth. We never said ALL muslims are anything, but if you certainly aren't ignorant of what goes on in Islamic nations under Islamic law. BTW we don't beat the mess out of our kids or teach others to do the same. Are you somehow justifying beating your kids or wives now?

You in one hand says god says something (specifically says something) then in the other say "but its not required for salvation". What is God's law for then?
Obedience is the fruit of true faith. That is what you lack. You have no idea if you will be truly saved or not.

You on one hand say prayer is "essential" but then say it is not "required" as a daily part of life. Yet Jesus himself specifically taught and outlined how to pray.
Required to become saved? Other than confessing Jesus as savior? No, Essential to maintain the very faith that saves us? Yes. Yes Jesus taught on prayer and that is what we do. We do it for many reasons, as I have said before. One of which is to keep our faith in Him strong and healthy. We don't chant phrases over and over like some mindless zombie either. We pray from the heart because we have a real relationship with Him

Do you people stand firm on anything? Does that book you are taught from actually mean anything? How in the world can you so flippantly pick apart and decide what God means or doesn't mean out the words He has given to you?
You don't have a clue do you? You've wadded into a something that you have no idea of.

What you call "charitable contribution" is in fact equivalent to a tithe as it is calculated on a percentage. We believe it and take it as mandatory.
We believe it and do it out of love. Your motive is fear.

Walks_in_islam
04-14-2009, 07:42 AM
Thank you for the reply:

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Pardon my misquote.

Nobody said prayer, fasting, charity and belief in one God was wrong. I don't know you think you we are but we pray, fast, give and believe in one God

As do we. Hence my original reference to parallels. These are the proper actions to assure a path to paradise and I am happy to hear that they are followed. I know that is what you are taught as well, and actually I also know what you are.

How would you know? Yes we fear God

I know your side better than you assume I do. I know you do or at least you are taught to. We are taught that God has his due in the above (see #1) and it is irreverent to not follow His requirements. We are taught that irreverence is a bad thing. As are you. So, where does that leave it?


AGain, how would you know? Yes we DO tithe and give offerings.

I know you do. See #1 reference to parallels. In some churches it is taught as mandatory, as it is in Islam. In some it is not. Islam teaches that is is.

So far your batting average is not very good

Your veiled sarcasm is noted. Thank you.

0 for 3. Yes our actions DO matter. Are you serious? Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

You said you are saved by faith. I said actions do matter and actions are the basis on what you are judged in the end. Now you say actions do matter. Thank you for the validation.

We speak the truth. We never said ALL muslims are anything, but if you certainly aren't ignorant of what goes on in Islamic nations under Islamic law. BTW we don't beat the mess out of our kids or teach others to do the same. Are you somehow justifying beating your kids or wives now?

I was referencing a post of yours referring to Muslims as "wife beaters" and offering example of a text from your own bible which is and has been used by those of christian faith to justify that very thing. Not all of christian faith, but some. As some Muslims do the same. I am not one who does. Probably my southern upbringing.

I live in an Islamic nation and the laws are Islamic law. I grew up in the South. So, that means, again, you are speaking of things which I actually and personally know and actually and personally have a basis to both make judgements and comparisons. Which, unfortunately, it appears that you do not.

Obedience is the fruit of true faith. That is what you lack. You have no idea if you will be truly saved or not.

Obedience to God and God's laws has been a requirement since God's words were first put to paper. Following God's law ensures salvation. Failing to do so ensures no salvation.

Required to become saved? Other than confessing Jesus as savior? No, Essential to maintain the very faith that saves us? Yes. Yes Jesus taught on prayer and that is what we do. We do it for many reasons, as I have said before. One of which is to keep our faith in Him strong and healthy. We don't chant phrases over and over like some mindless zombie either. We pray from the heart because we have a real relationship with Him

One does not "become saved". One is required to spend one's entire life, every day, following the words and teachings of God's words. Nobody I know or have ever heard of chants words like mindless zombies when praying. Do you have a specific example? Otherwise the attempt at insult is noted and passed.

You don't have a clue do you? You've wadded into a something that you have no idea of.

I suspect that I do have a clue. As I know both sides.

We believe it and do it out of love. Your motive is fear.

I follow this way because I believe it is the right way and choose to follow it. Qualifies as faith under the definition of faith.

Shawn
04-14-2009, 08:43 AM
man...it isn't about religeon...It's about Jesus.

Praxeas
04-14-2009, 12:44 PM
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Pardon my misquote.

Do you believe Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever?

Nobody said prayer, fasting, charity and belief in one God was wrong. I don't know you think you we are but we pray, fast, give and believe in one God

As do we. Hence my original reference to parallels. These are the proper actions to assure a path to paradise and I am happy to hear that they are followed. I know that is what you are taught as well, and actually I also know what you are.

You made an assertion and your assertion is false. I don't care what your parallels are, infact you just contradicted yourself by asserting we believe they are all wrong.. You don't know what we are since you just accused us of saying all that was wrong,

How would you know? Yes we fear God

I know your side better than you assume I do. I know you do or at least you are taught to. We are taught that God has his due in the above (see #1) and it is irreverent to not follow His requirements. We are taught that irreverence is a bad thing. As are you. So, where does that leave it?

No you don't know my side. This is again your false assertion that we are irreverent or teach we should be irreverent.

AGain, how would you know? Yes we DO tithe and give offerings.

I know you do. See #1 reference to parallels. In some churches it is taught as mandatory, as it is in Islam. In some it is not. Islam teaches that is is.

Don't say I know you do when you just asserted we don't! What are you trying to do here? What Islam teaches is irrelevant to me. You made a series of assertions or accusations and now you are contradicting yourself

So far your batting average is not very good

Your veiled sarcasm is noted. Thank you.

It wasn't veiled or sarcasm. You listed a series of assertions or accusations about us that are untrue

0 for 3. Yes our actions DO matter. Are you serious? Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

You said you are saved by faith. I said actions do matter and actions are the basis on what you are judged in the end. Now you say actions do matter. Thank you for the validation.

Being saved by faith does not equal "Your actions do not matter". You clearly don't know who and what you are dealing with

We speak the truth. We never said ALL muslims are anything, but if you certainly aren't ignorant of what goes on in Islamic nations under Islamic law. BTW we don't beat the mess out of our kids or teach others to do the same. Are you somehow justifying beating your kids or wives now?

I was referencing a post of yours referring to Muslims as "wife beaters" and offering example of a text from your own bible which is and has been used by those of christian faith to justify that very thing. Not all of christian faith, but some. As some Muslims do the same. I am not one who does. Probably my southern upbringing.

Quote me saying muslims are wife beaters

I live in an Islamic nation and the laws are Islamic law. I grew up in the South. So, that means, again, you are speaking of things which I actually and personally know and actually and personally have a basis to both make judgements and comparisons. Which, unfortunately, it appears that you do not.

Once again you are making an assertion you have not substantiated

Obedience is the fruit of true faith. That is what you lack. You have no idea if you will be truly saved or not.

Obedience to God and God's laws has been a requirement since God's words were first put to paper. Following God's law ensures salvation. Failing to do so ensures no salvation.

Are you perfect in following God's laws? Ever once miss the mark?

Required to become saved? Other than confessing Jesus as savior? No, Essential to maintain the very faith that saves us? Yes. Yes Jesus taught on prayer and that is what we do. We do it for many reasons, as I have said before. One of which is to keep our faith in Him strong and healthy. We don't chant phrases over and over like some mindless zombie either. We pray from the heart because we have a real relationship with Him

One does not "become saved". One is required to spend one's entire life, every day, following the words and teachings of God's words. Nobody I know or have ever heard of chants words like mindless zombies when praying. Do you have a specific example? Otherwise the attempt at insult is noted and passed.

Yes one DOES become saved. I hope someday you will experience this. When you pray, do you recite the same words over and over along side your muslim brethren?

You don't have a clue do you? You've wadded into a something that you have no idea of.

I suspect that I do have a clue. As I know both sides.

You clearly don't know both sides. This is evidenced by your list of false assertions about prayer and tithes etc etc

We believe it and do it out of love. Your motive is fear.

I follow this way because I believe it is the right way and choose to follow it. Qualifies as faith under the definition of faith.

I follow this way because it has freed me. It has given me life here and now. I have a loving relationship with my creator and God has forgiven me of all my sins because of His goodness, not my own.

It would be nice next time if you could separate the post by quotes and response so I can just hit the quote button and answer

Walks_in_islam
04-14-2009, 03:38 PM
Pardon my misquote.

Do you believe Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever?

As stated I believe God is the same and has not changed since the beginning of human history.

Nobody said prayer, fasting, charity and belief in one God was wrong. I don't know you think you we are but we pray, fast, give and believe in one God

As do we. Hence my original reference to parallels. These are the proper actions to assure a path to paradise and I am happy to hear that they are followed. I know that is what you are taught as well, and actually I also know what you are.

You made an assertion and your assertion is false. I don't care what your parallels are, infact you just contradicted yourself by asserting we believe they are all wrong.. You don't know what we are since you just accused us of saying all that was wrong,

It only, perhaps unintentionally, across as being somehow stated as wrong only in it's interpretation as a requirement. You said "we tithe and fast because we want to". That statement implies, again perhaps unintentionally, an arbitrary decision of whether or not to follow these courses of actions. I merely pointed out that in Islam, these are in fact required. For me personally, the intention of giving is to return back to God's work what He is due based on what he has chosen to give to me and my family, and thus what he is owed. The intention in fasting is to put aside physical wants and self-sacrifice as to what God is owed. Sometimes I do not want to do that, and do not feel like doing that, but for me, and I can only speak for myself, the intention is to do it because God is owed it. The actions as taught are the same. In one path, they are defined as choices. In the other path, they are defined as requirements. I happen to choose the more conservative second path.

How would you know? Yes we fear God

I know your side better than you assume I do. I know you do or at least you are taught to. We are taught that God has his due in the above (see #1) and it is irreverent to not follow His requirements. We are taught that irreverence is a bad thing. As are you. So, where does that leave it?

No you don't know my side. This is again your false assertion that we are irreverent or teach we should be irreverent.

I believe that if God lays out a requirement for specific actions, these being regular prayer, fasting, returning a specific portion of personal gain back to His work, and belief in One and only One true God, it is irreverent to Him to pick and choose which of these will be followed. These are my beliefs only and not a shoe to be tried on to see if it fits anyone else.

AGain, how would you know? Yes we DO tithe and give offerings.

I know you do. See #1 reference to parallels. In some churches it is taught as mandatory, as it is in Islam. In some it is not. Islam teaches that is is.

Don't say I know you do when you just asserted we don't! What are you trying to do here? What Islam teaches is irrelevant to me. You made a series of assertions or accusations and now you are contradicting yourself

You seem upset. If something is irrelevent to me what I choose to do is waste no time, resources, or energy on it. Since Islam is irrelevent to you then a suggestion would be to not continue to bring up Islam, teachings of Islam, critical discussions of Islam, and out of context quotes from Islamic texts. It would certainly allow the focus of more time and energy defining and sharing what IS right rather than what is NOT right. I asserted that I know that you do tithe (well some do) but that "doing so because one chooses do do it" rather than doing so because it is required is something I believe to be irreverent.

So far your batting average is not very good

Your veiled sarcasm is noted. Thank you.

It wasn't veiled or sarcasm. You listed a series of assertions or accusations about us that are untrue

0 for 3. Yes our actions DO matter. Are you serious? Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

You said you are saved by faith. I said actions do matter and actions are the basis on what you are judged in the end. Now you say actions do matter. Thank you for the validation.

Being saved by faith does not equal "Your actions do not matter". You clearly don't know who and what you are dealing with

I will further elaborate and share that I never stopped to consider "who and what" I am dealing with either. Whatever that means.

We speak the truth. We never said ALL muslims are anything, but if you certainly aren't ignorant of what goes on in Islamic nations under Islamic law. BTW we don't beat the mess out of our kids or teach others to do the same. Are you somehow justifying beating your kids or wives now?

I was referencing a post of yours referring to Muslims as "wife beaters" and offering example of a text from your own bible which is and has been used by those of christian faith to justify that very thing. Not all of christian faith, but some. As some Muslims do the same. I am not one who does. Probably my southern upbringing.

Quote me saying muslims are wife beaters

You have offered the "refuse to share their bed, and if they continue, beat them.." quote several times on this forum. Deny that or not. If you feel the need to re-ask I will remind you by supplying times and dates if you need them.

I live in an Islamic nation and the laws are Islamic law. I grew up in the South. So, that means, again, you are speaking of things which I actually and personally know and actually and personally have a basis to both make judgements and comparisons. Which, unfortunately, it appears that you do not.

Once again you are making an assertion you have not substantiated

The only assertion that I made is that I am in fact familiar with Islamic laws in Islamic nations, as well as our own. I also make the assertion that it appears to me that you have not actually LIVED in an islamic society. Appears just means appears and is not an assertion of fact.

Obedience is the fruit of true faith. That is what you lack. You have no idea if you will be truly saved or not.

Obedience to God and God's laws has been a requirement since God's words were first put to paper. Following God's law ensures salvation. Failing to do so ensures no salvation.

Are you perfect in following God's laws? Ever once miss the mark?

Without question.

Required to become saved? Other than confessing Jesus as savior? No, Essential to maintain the very faith that saves us? Yes. Yes Jesus taught on prayer and that is what we do. We do it for many reasons, as I have said before. One of which is to keep our faith in Him strong and healthy. We don't chant phrases over and over like some mindless zombie either. We pray from the heart because we have a real relationship with Him

One does not "become saved". One is required to spend one's entire life, every day, following the words and teachings of God's words. Nobody I know or have ever heard of chants words like mindless zombies when praying. Do you have a specific example? Otherwise the attempt at insult is noted and passed.

Yes one DOES become saved. I hope someday you will experience this. When you pray, do you recite the same words over and over along side your muslim brethren?

During the formal prayer I do. In my case in (2) languages lol.

You don't have a clue do you? You've wadded into a something that you have no idea of.

I suspect that I do have a clue. As I know both sides.

You clearly don't know both sides. This is evidenced by your list of false assertions about prayer and tithes etc etc

The only assertion I made from the beginning is that both are required for salvation.

We believe it and do it out of love. Your motive is fear.

I follow this way because I believe it is the right way and choose to follow it. Qualifies as faith under the definition of faith.

I follow this way because it has freed me. It has given me life here and now. I have a loving relationship with my creator and God has forgiven me of all my sins because of His goodness, not my own.

There is no, none, halas, over, done, salvation for anyone without the mercy of God.

It would be nice next time if you could separate the post by quotes and response so I can just hit the quote button and answer

That would be too easy lol

Praxeas
04-14-2009, 08:26 PM
It only, perhaps unintentionally, across as being somehow stated as wrong only in it's interpretation as a requirement. You said "we tithe and fast because we want to". That statement implies, again perhaps unintentionally, an arbitrary decision of whether or not to follow these courses of actions. I merely pointed out that in Islam, these are in fact required. For me personally, the intention of giving is to return back to God's work what He is due based on what he has chosen to give to me and my family, and thus what he is owed. The intention in fasting is to put aside physical wants and self-sacrifice as to what God is owed. Sometimes I do not want to do that, and do not feel like doing that, but for me, and I can only speak for myself, the intention is to do it because God is owed it. The actions as taught are the same. In one path, they are defined as choices. In the other path, they are defined as requirements. I happen to choose the more conservative second path.

Rather than being an arbitrary decision, it becomes rather a part of who we are. Not because we are afraid we will go to hell if not, but because He loves us and we love Him. That is HIS work in us to change us. If a person chooses NOT to do such things then they ae not truely loving Him. Do you feed your kids because you love them or because you are afraid God will punish you?

I believe that if God lays out a requirement for specific actions, these being regular prayer, fasting, returning a specific portion of personal gain back to His work, and belief in One and only One true God, it is irreverent to Him to pick and choose which of these will be followed. These are my beliefs only and not a shoe to be tried on to see if it fits anyone else.
Again, who was picking and choosing? That is again the second time you are implying something that is untrue. You are making a veiled accusation. We don't pick and choose. We do them!

You seem upset. If something is irrelevent to me what I choose to do is waste no time, resources, or energy on it. Since Islam is irrelevent to you then a suggestion would be to not continue to bring up Islam, teachings of Islam, critical discussions of Islam, and out of context quotes from Islamic texts. It would certainly allow the focus of more time and energy defining and sharing what IS right rather than what is NOT right. I asserted that I know that you do tithe (well some do) but that "doing so because one chooses do do it" rather than doing so because it is required is something I believe to be irreverent.
I will bring them up because I believe it is a false religion. What is irrelevant is you "sharing" you views on Islam. What you do as a Muslim has no affect on me personally. Be my guest and practice. So what is irrelevant is you telling me what you do when I did not ask. Nothing personal. So are you trying to say that if you tithe because you feel you have to under coersion, threat of damnation, is a better option than me doing it because I WANT to do it? Paul said God loves a cheerful giver. I would rather do it cheerfully because that is what my heart is about, than doing it because I am afraid to not do it is go ........ me to hell for being disobedient. No matter what, I am being obedient.



I will further elaborate and share that I never stopped to consider "who and what" I am dealing with either. Whatever that means.

Really? but you just said earlier that you KNEW who and what. Your post was an assertion that we (I) think believing in prayer and even one God was bad....that shows me you don't know who and what you are dealing with.

You have offered the "refuse to share their bed, and if they continue, beat them.." quote several times on this forum. Deny that or not. If you feel the need to re-ask I will remind you by supplying times and dates if you need them.
Who was I quoting? You seem to not be able to make a distinction between me making a sweeping generalization of all Muslims and me quoting muslims...So again did I say "Muslims are wife beaters"? Yes please give me the post number

The only assertion that I made is that I am in fact familiar with Islamic laws in Islamic nations, as well as our own. I also make the assertion that it appears to me that you have not actually LIVED in an islamic society. Appears just means appears and is not an assertion of fact.
No you made several assertions about us (and me) about prayer and One God being bad and some others. I pointed them out already

Without question.
really? Never sinned? Wow. So you should feel comfortable in the knowleldge that if you died right now you are guranteed to go to heaven to be with God right?

During the formal prayer I do. In my case in (2) languages lol.
Right, see prayer for us is less mechanical. We approach God as though He were our loving Father and sometimes a friend. We worship him and praise Him but we also talk heart to heart with Him.

The only assertion I made from the beginning is that both are required for salvation. Again, no. You made blanket statements or assertions about us and myself, Christians or members of this board. I ask you please to revisit your original post that I responded to from yesterday

There is no, none, halas, over, done, salvation for anyone without the mercy of God
The bible says that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Self Righteousness is a sin too. Sin cuts man off from the life of God. That is why on your own, your own works, you can not redeem yourself to God. You need a savior, Jesus Christ. When you truely accept Him and give you life to God you will experience a spiritual transformation and religion will become more than a set of rules to obey out of fearfulness. You will become a child of God

Walks_in_islam
04-15-2009, 07:04 AM
"Without question" means yes, I have "missed the mark."

Your reply of:

"really? Never sinned? Wow. So you should feel comfortable in the knowleldge that if you died right now you are guranteed to go to heaven to be with God right?" tells me that your answers are so pre-conceived that you are incapable of comprehending words.

"I believe that if God lays out a requirement for specific actions, these being regular prayer, fasting, returning a specific portion of personal gain back to His work, and belief in One and only One true God, it is irreverent to Him to pick and choose which of these will be followed. These are my beliefs only and not a shoe to be tried on to see if it fits anyone else."

I specifically stated this as my own personal belief.

Your reply:

Again, who was picking and choosing? That is again the second time you are implying something that is untrue. You are making a veiled accusation. We don't pick and choose. We do them!

So, since I only stated a personal belief, and referred to nobody, you may answer your own question.

The beliefs that I wanted to state are stated. You are now free to continue to focus on spending your time spreading hate, bigotry, and criticism of other cultures and religions while your country and community crumbles around you. Best of luck. Believe it or not, I'm sad for you.

WII

Rather than being an arbitrary decision, it becomes rather a part of who we are. Not because we are afraid we will go to hell if not, but because He loves us and we love Him. That is HIS work in us to change us. If a person chooses NOT to do such things then they ae not truely loving Him. Do you feed your kids because you love them or because you are afraid God will punish you?


Again, who was picking and choosing? That is again the second time you are implying something that is untrue. You are making a veiled accusation. We don't pick and choose. We do them!


I will bring them up because I believe it is a false religion. What is irrelevant is you "sharing" you views on Islam. What you do as a Muslim has no affect on me personally. Be my guest and practice. So what is irrelevant is you telling me what you do when I did not ask. Nothing personal. So are you trying to say that if you tithe because you feel you have to under coersion, threat of damnation, is a better option than me doing it because I WANT to do it? Paul said God loves a cheerful giver. I would rather do it cheerfully because that is what my heart is about, than doing it because I am afraid to not do it is go ........ me to hell for being disobedient. No matter what, I am being obedient.



Really? but you just said earlier that you KNEW who and what. Your post was an assertion that we (I) think believing in prayer and even one God was bad....that shows me you don't know who and what you are dealing with.


Who was I quoting? You seem to not be able to make a distinction between me making a sweeping generalization of all Muslims and me quoting muslims...So again did I say "Muslims are wife beaters"? Yes please give me the post number


No you made several assertions about us (and me) about prayer and One God being bad and some others. I pointed them out already


really? Never sinned? Wow. So you should feel comfortable in the knowleldge that if you died right now you are guranteed to go to heaven to be with God right?


Right, see prayer for us is less mechanical. We approach God as though He were our loving Father and sometimes a friend. We worship him and praise Him but we also talk heart to heart with Him.

Again, no. You made blanket statements or assertions about us and myself, Christians or members of this board. I ask you please to revisit your original post that I responded to from yesterday


The bible says that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Self Righteousness is a sin too. Sin cuts man off from the life of God. That is why on your own, your own works, you can not redeem yourself to God. You need a savior, Jesus Christ. When you truely accept Him and give you life to God you will experience a spiritual transformation and religion will become more than a set of rules to obey out of fearfulness. You will become a child of God

Praxeas
04-15-2009, 01:01 PM
"Without question" means yes, I have "missed the mark."

Your reply of:

"really? Never sinned? Wow. So you should feel comfortable in the knowleldge that if you died right now you are guranteed to go to heaven to be with God right?" tells me that your answers are so pre-conceived that you are incapable of comprehending words.
Ah, an insult. Maybe you need to choose your words more carefully then. I had simply replied to what you said. You said you were perfect. This is sort of like you making assertions about myself and other Christians that prayer and one God are bad, then turning around and denying ever having made such an assertion. I am reading your words and responding. If the response is something you did not expect then perhaps you need to rethink what you post.

"I believe that if God lays out a requirement for specific actions, these being regular prayer, fasting, returning a specific portion of personal gain back to His work, and belief in One and only One true God, it is irreverent to Him to pick and choose which of these will be followed. These are my beliefs only and not a shoe to be tried on to see if it fits anyone else."

I specifically stated this as my own personal belief.
Why insert the part about picking and choosing though? Did I say you picked and chose what to follow? You are NOT speaking of your own personal belief again I say because you MADE that assertion about us earlier, yet later denied doing so. DO I need to repost your initial post?

Your reply:

Again, who was picking and choosing? That is again the second time you are implying something that is untrue. You are making a veiled accusation. We don't pick and choose. We do them!

So, since I only stated a personal belief, and referred to nobody, you may answer your own question.
See above

The beliefs that I wanted to state are stated. You are now free to continue to focus on spending your time spreading hate, bigotry, and criticism of other cultures and religions while your country and community crumbles around you. Best of luck. Believe it or not, I'm sad for you.
See? Again you make an assertion that is unsubstantiated and even more is a veiled attempt at insult. We did not spread hate or bigotry, but we DID level criticisms. BTW if you pay attention we criticize our own country and community too. See your posts are full of assertions about us but you turn around and deny it.

Walks_in_islam
04-15-2009, 11:26 PM
As stated, I yield. Best wishes to you and yours.

Walks_in_islam
04-16-2009, 12:34 PM
Prax:

I have identified some possible contradictions in the Bible. There are I believe NO contradictions in writings inspired by God and untouched by men. I have but cruelly left out chapter and verse because I want you to thoroughly study the mentioned books of the Bible. The study will do you good. While studying, you will hopefully have less time to annoy, browbeat, and verbally bully innocent people. After you are done I have an additional 100 or so for you to address. Most are simple and hopefully can be easily explained to the unlearned.

Please feel free to openly state the contradictions in the Quran. After you address these.

1. David was incited to count the fighting men of Isreal. In 2nd Samuel, God incited him. In I Chronicles, Satan incited him. When they were counted, 2nd Samual says 800,000 and I Chronicles says 1.1 MM.
2. God threatens David with 7 years of famine in 2nd Samuel, 3 years of famine in I Chronicles.
3. Ahaziah was 22 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings. He was 42 in 2nd Chronicles.
4. Jehoiachin was 18 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings, 8 when he began his rule in 2nd Chronicles
5. David's "chief of mighty men" killed 800 men at one time in 2nd Samuel and 300 men at one time in I Chronicles
6. David carried the Ark into Jerusalem AFTER defeating the Philistines in 2nd Samuel. Before defeating them in Chronicles 13/14
7. David captured 1700 horsemen after defeating the King of Zobah in 2nd Samuel, 7000 in I Chronicles.
8. Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses in I Kings. 4000 stalls in 2nd Chronicles.
9. During King Asa's reign Baasha King of Isreal died in the 26th year in I Kings. He was still alive in the 36th year in I chronicles.
10. Solomon appointed 3600 overseers to build the temple in 2nd chronicles. 3300 in I Kings.
11. Solomon built a facility containing 2000 baths in I kings. It had 3000 in 2nd chronicles.
Isrealites freed from Babylonian captivity:
Children of Pahrath-Moab:
2812 Ezra. 2818 Nehemiah
Children of Azgad:
1222 Ezra. 2333 Nehemiah
And so on. The total numbers agree in each book as 42,360, but if you add each individual column from each book Ezra adds to 29,818 and Nehemiah adds to 31,089
There were 200 singers in the assembly in Ezra and 245 in the assembly in Nehemiah.
King Abijah's mother's name was Michaiah, daughter of Uriel in one chapter of 2nd chronicles and Maachah daughter of Absalom in another chapter. Absalom however had only one daughter mentioned whose name was Tamar in 2nd Samuel.
Joshua and the Isrealites captured Jerusalem in Joshua 10 and did not capture it in Joshua 15.
Father of Joseph, husband of Mary was Jacob in Matthew and Heli in Luke
Jesus descended from Solomon in Matthew and from Nathan in Luke
The father of Shealtiel was Jechoniah in Matthew and Neri in Luke
Abiud son of Zerubbabel was the anscestor of Jesus in Matthew and Rhesa son of Zerubbabel in Luke. Neither are mentioned as sons of Zerubbabel in the list in I Chronicles.
Father of Uzziah was Joram in Matthew and Amaziah in 2nd Chronicles
Father of Jechoniah was Josiah in Matthew and Jeholakim in I Chronicles
The angel stated that Jesus would inherit the throne of David in Luke. But Matthew says he is a descendent of Jehoiakim and I Chronicles says "and Jehoiaikim was cursed by god so that none of his descendents can sit upon David's throne" Oops.
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt in Mark and Luke and a colt/donkey in Matthew
Simon Peter found out that Jesus was Christ from a heavenly revelation in Matthew, but his brother Andrew told him in John.
Jesus met Simon and Andrew by the Sea of Galilee in Matthew and on the banks of the Jordan in John
Jairus' daughter was dead when he met Jesus in Matthew but not dead / at the point of death in Mark
The disciples were allowed to keep a staff on their journeys in Mark. They were not allowed in Matthew and Luke
Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist in Matthew and Mark. He did not in Luke.
John the Baptist recognized Jesus in John. He did not recognize him in Matthew.
Jesus cleansed the temple the day he entered Jerusalem in Matthew. He spent the night in Bethany and cleansed it the next day in Mark
Judas kissed Jesus in Matthew. He did not in John
The curtain in the temple was rent after Jesus died in Matthew and Mark. Before Jesus died in Luke.
Both thieves mocked Jesus in Mark. One mocked, one defended in Luke
Jesus ascended to paradise on the day of crucifixion in Luke. He said to Mary he has not yet ascended (two days later) in John
The apostle Paul and companions on the road to Damascus:
All heard the voice in Acts 9. Not all heard the voice in Acts 22
The companions fell to the ground in Acts 26. They did not in Acts 9
The voice spelled out Paul's duties in Acts 26. The voice told him to go to Damascus in Acts 9.

Thomas Trini
04-16-2009, 01:16 PM
Hey,
Walks in Islam
Here's one question for you. Muslims are always supposed to pray facing Mecca, right? Well, at my job, I've seen them facing to the Northeast (not Mecca), South and West. It's rare that I see them actually facing East. I've seen it at least 6 times.
If facing Mecca is so stinking important, why don't you guys ever have a compass and pray the right way/direction?

Praxeas
04-16-2009, 02:43 PM
Prax:

I have identified some possible contradictions in the Bible. There are I believe NO contradictions in writings inspired by God and untouched by men. I have but cruelly left out chapter and verse because I want you to thoroughly study the mentioned books of the Bible. The study will do you good. While studying, you will hopefully have less time to annoy, browbeat, and verbally bully innocent people. After you are done I have an additional 100 or so for you to address. Most are simple and hopefully can be easily explained to the unlearned.

please show me where I browbeat or verbally bullied innocent people, let alone the guilty? There go some more of your accusations you will surely later say you did not do.

I find it ironic you asserted we believe prayer and One God is bad, later say you did not assert that at all, then say you are done, then post an attempt to discredit the very bible you just got finished quoting to show Islam and Christianity are similiar and include rude accusations about me personally.

If you want me to answer questions or have a dialog with you you will need to dispense with the ad hominems

Walks_in_islam
04-16-2009, 03:33 PM
We face Mecca by shortest distance.

You are off the subject and have some studying to do. You know so much and can quote so much from and about the Quran but believe in the Bible. Please shed some light for me on the specifically mentioned discrepencies in the Bible.

I will in charity help you get started. The first one is II Samuel 24:1 / I Chronicles 21:1 So which was it? God or Satan who incited David to count the men of Isreal? Who actually WROTE the Bible anyway? Were the words inspired one way to one author and another way to another? Were the authors confused? Which authors were right and which made 'errors'? It would be good to know that - you would especially not want to live your entire life following and believing the wrong one would you? I have an additional and very comprehensive detailed list from the New Testament. The "apostle" Paul aka "I have become all things to all men....but if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds..." was especially bad about discrepencies between his message and that of Jesus, who was truly sent by God to man and the desciples of Jesus who physically spent time with Jesus. I did not, however, wish to overwhelm you. But, I am confused. I was taught that Moses wrote the book of Deuteronomy. (spelling?) Yet Moses' death was described there. So did Moses write about his death or did someone else add to or actually write the book attributed to Moses?

I requested (2) things: The first was to somehow explain the listed and specific discrepencies in the Bible. The second was to list discrepencies in the Quran. After that you are then free to continue to tell me what I feel, what I intend, what I say, what I mean, and what I do.

Thomas Trini
04-16-2009, 04:01 PM
We face Mecca by shortest distance. If this is true, how can Muslims, very often, within the same building face different directions if this is true? At other times within the same city?

Thomas Trini
04-16-2009, 04:07 PM
You are off the subject and have some studying to do. You know so much and can quote so much from and about the Quran but believe in the Bible. Please shed some light for me on the specifically mentioned discrepencies in the Bible.

I will in charity help you get started. The first one is II Samuel 24:1 / I Chronicles 21:1 So which was it? God or Satan who incited David to count the men of Isreal? Who actually WROTE the Bible anyway? Were the words inspired one way to one author and another way to another? Were the authors confused? Which authors were right and which made 'errors'? It would be good to know that - you would especially not want to live your entire life following and believing the wrong one would you? I have an additional and very comprehensive detailed list from the New Testament. The "apostle" Paul aka "I have become all things to all men....but if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds..." was especially bad about discrepencies between his message and that of Jesus, who was truly sent by God to man and the desciples of Jesus who physically spent time with Jesus. I did not, however, wish to overwhelm you. But, I am confused. I was taught that Moses wrote the book of Deuteronomy. (spelling?) Yet Moses' death was described there. So did Moses write about his death or did someone else add to or actually write the book attributed to Moses?

I requested (2) things: The first was to somehow explain the listed and specific discrepencies in the Bible. The second was to list discrepencies in the Quran. After that you are then free to continue to tell me what I feel, what I intend, what I say, what I mean, and what I do.These "alleged" discrepancies are taught within the first, or two year of any reputable Bible College. They have been documented again and again and again by various Bible scholars. Is that the best "puzzle" or discrepancy you can give us? Certainly there are better ones than that.
The discepancies in the Quran are numerous, including the birthplace of Jesus (it's not Jerusalem).
Now I'll ask you, why would you follow a prophet who marries a 6 year old girl, and consummates the "marriage" when she reaches 9 years old. He's a pedophile. This year, there was news that a man in the Middle East was forbidden to do this same thing. Why is it wrong for him, but OK for your greatest prophet?

Thomas Trini
04-16-2009, 06:39 PM
BTW,
"Walks in Islam"
*How could Muhammed have written The Quran if he was illiterate, as demonstrated by a number of historians?
*How is it that blasphemy against Muhammed is punishable by death, but blasphemy against Allah is not? Is Muhammed greater than Allah?
*Why should we consider the miracle legends in the Hadith authentic when the Quran portays Muhammed as refusing to perform such Miracles (Sura 3:181-84;6:8-9; 29:48-50)?
The Quran is nothing more than a Middle Eastern version of "The Book of Mormon." A series of self fulfilling "visions" and "revelations" written by one man, claiming to be a prophet, with himself as his witness. Pooey.
The Bible "discepancies" you list are good, but what about others? Such as in some Gospel accounts, Jesus is speaking with one theif on a cross (so there's only one other man being crucified), while in other accounts there are two men on two different crosses? Or how about the creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2? Are there two creations, or one?

Walks_in_islam
04-16-2009, 11:30 PM
I am puzzled. You have SEEN Muslims pray in the same place facing different directions?

If this is true, how can Muslims, very often, within the same building face different directions if this is true? At other times within the same city?

Walks_in_islam
04-17-2009, 12:05 AM
Truth? I simply got tired of typing. I will now put aside typing up the other 100 or so as honestly I did not feel like doing the first list. I just wanted to close Prax's arguing and I (at least for the time being) appear to have been successful. He is now bashing every comment from me on other parts of the forum and doing everything possible to avoid this question. (laughing)

Now I will be serious and stop the flippant comments.

I chose Islam because the base beliefs, teachings, and lifestyle (see original post before this became a this-for-that discussion) match my own values and I prefer the more conservative values and teachings of Islam to what is taught and practiced in modern churches today. There is no other reason. I do not wish more wives lol or any of the other "extras" that are associated with Muslims etc etc (laughing at the thought)

I also do not know every detail of Mohammed's life. If you have ever at least tried to research Islam you will understand that said research involves wading through arabic translations and once translation starts, the mismatches begin. So unfortunately I am the wrong one to explain or justify anything that was or has been said concerning any of his activities. I know this, whether he practiced what he preached his TEACHINGS appear to me to reflect a high moral standard that few can achieve.

These "alleged" discrepancies are taught within the first, or two year of any reputable Bible College. They have been documented again and again and again by various Bible scholars. Is that the best "puzzle" or discrepancy you can give us? Certainly there are better ones than that.
The discepancies in the Quran are numerous, including the birthplace of Jesus (it's not Jerusalem).
Now I'll ask you, why would you follow a prophet who marries a 6 year old girl, and consummates the "marriage" when she reaches 9 years old. He's a pedophile. This year, there was news that a man in the Middle East was forbidden to do this same thing. Why is it wrong for him, but OK for your greatest prophet?

Walks_in_islam
04-17-2009, 01:08 AM
I must confess that I was briefly tempted to list the sexual proclivities of other Biblical heroes but to what purpose. Rather I choose to profess that the list of examples of God's mercy and forgiveness of sometimes terrible and sinful acts are more than there is server memory to store.

oletime
04-17-2009, 11:55 AM
hey prax, since he said he was from houston, do you suppose he is in the oil bidness and that is the reason he is in saudia arabia now, a work transfer ? he can bash us but he doent mind spending the" great satans money" in their words !

Walks_in_islam
04-17-2009, 01:39 PM
I bashed you where again?

hey prax, since he said he was from houston, do you suppose he is in the oil bidness and that is the reason he is in saudia arabia now, a work transfer ? he can bash us but he doent mind spending the" great satans money" in their words !

Thomas Trini
04-17-2009, 03:09 PM
I am puzzled. You have SEEN Muslims pray in the same place facing different directions?Yep. That's why I asked if you guys needed a compass when you prayed. I almost fall on the floor (laughing) when I see it. Don't they know which direction the sun rises from?
BTW, I believe Mecca is closer to us from the east than the west (or north, northeast or south for that matter). Of course, if you circle the earth enough times in any direct, you eventually reach Mecca I suppose.

Thomas Trini
04-17-2009, 03:14 PM
Truth? I simply got tired of typing. I will now put aside typing up the other 100 or so as honestly I did not feel like doing the first list. I just wanted to close Prax's arguing and I (at least for the time being) appear to have been successful. He is now bashing every comment from me on other parts of the forum and doing everything possible to avoid this question. (laughing)

Now I will be serious and stop the flippant comments.

I chose Islam because the base beliefs, teachings, and lifestyle (see original post before this became a this-for-that discussion) match my own values and I prefer the more conservative values and teachings of Islam to what is taught and practiced in modern churches today. There is no other reason. I do not wish more wives lol or any of the other "extras" that are associated with Muslims etc etc (laughing at the thought)

I also do not know every detail of Mohammed's life. If you have ever at least tried to research Islam you will understand that said research involves wading through arabic translations and once translation starts, the mismatches begin. So unfortunately I am the wrong one to explain or justify anything that was or has been said concerning any of his activities. I know this, whether he practiced what he preached his TEACHINGS appear to me to reflect a high moral standard that few can achieve.You questioned my/our beliefs as to whether Moses wrote the last few verses of the entire five books, but you have trouble knowing whether Muhammed was illiterate?
You compare the sins of any of the people in the Bible to having sex with a 9 year old girl, and claim "everybody" sins? By the way, I'm speaking of Muhammed's third wife, Aisha, whom he married at the age of 6. He also said Aisha was his "favorite" wife. That's just sick.

Thomas Trini
04-17-2009, 03:17 PM
I must confess that I was briefly tempted to list the sexual proclivities of other Biblical heroes but to what purpose. Rather I choose to profess that the list of examples of God's mercy and forgiveness of sometimes terrible and sinful acts are more than there is server memory to store.Just how far would you go in defending Muhammed and his sexual mannerisms? Remember, you're going to face your eternal destiny based upon the truthfulness of your greatest prophet.

StillStanding
04-17-2009, 03:26 PM
FWIW, I consider Islam a myth that has deceived millions, given false hope to the underprivileged, and caused mentally disturbed people to turn to terrorism in the name of Islam. It has also been used as an excuse for certain cultures to treat women like dogs.

Just in case anyone was wondering where I stood on the Islam fallacy! :D

Thomas Trini
04-17-2009, 03:35 PM
FWIW, I consider Islam a myth that has deceived millions, given false hope to the underprivileged, and caused mentally disturbed people to turn to terrorism in the name of Islam. It has also been used as an excuse for certain cultures to treat women like dogs.

Just in case anyone was wondering where I stood on the Islam fallacy! :DTell us what you really think.
Not to mention "female circumcisions."
But hey, Christianity is really the most violent religion, right (TIC)?

Thomas Trini
04-17-2009, 03:46 PM
I chose Islam because the base beliefs, teachings, and lifestyle (see original post before this became a this-for-that discussion) match my own values and I prefer the more conservative values and teachings of Islam to what is taught and practiced in modern churches today. There is no other reason. I do not wish more wives lol or any of the other "extras" that are associated with Muslims etc etc (laughing at the thought)
Or perhaps you "choose Islam" because you will considered dead by other members of your family, or friends, or loves?

Thomas Trini
04-17-2009, 03:52 PM
I also do not know every detail of Mohammed's life. If you have ever at least tried to research Islam you will understand that said research involves wading through arabic translations and once translation starts, the mismatches begin. So unfortunately I am the wrong one to explain or justify anything that was or has been said concerning any of his activities. I know this, whether he practiced what he preached his TEACHINGS appear to me to reflect a high moral standard that few can achieve.BTW, here's another question. If Allah is the greatest of all gods, why is it that he only hears you if you pray in Arabic, but none of the other languages? If he's all powerful, doesn't he understand all of the other languages in the world?

Timmy
04-17-2009, 04:03 PM
You questioned my/our beliefs as to whether Moses wrote the last few verses of the entire five books, but you have trouble knowing whether Muhammed was illiterate?
You compare the sins of any of the people in the Bible to having sex with a 9 year old girl, and claim "everybody" sins? By the way, I'm speaking of Muhammed's third wife, Aisha, whom he married at the age of 6. He also said Aisha was his "favorite" wife. That's just sick.

A lot of things God and his followers (often under God's orders) did in the Bible were sick, too. At least I would characterize them as sick. Different strokes, I guess.

shawndell
04-17-2009, 05:07 PM
Im glad that I love Jesus!!!!Being a woman might get me stoned,just bacause Im not a man.

Walks_in_islam
04-18-2009, 08:33 AM
No matter who I am, or you are, or which book it is taken out - all of us will be judged at the end according to our deeds. Nobody else's truthfulness or lack thereof will matter a wit.

Just how far would you go in defending Muhammed and his sexual mannerisms? Remember, you're going to face your eternal destiny based upon the truthfulness of your greatest prophet.

Walks_in_islam
04-18-2009, 08:36 AM
(laughing) Do you really, actually believe that? I see THOUSANDS of muslim women every day and I have never seen a stoning. In fact, if someone bothers them the person who bothers them is immediately detained.

There is more talk of stoning on this site then there is where muslim women actually live (laughing)

Im glad that I love Jesus!!!!Being a woman might get me stoned,just bacause Im not a man.

Walks_in_islam
04-18-2009, 08:37 AM
Dead? Elaborate.

Or perhaps you "choose Islam" because you will considered dead by other members of your family, or friends, or loves?

Thomas Trini
04-18-2009, 01:17 PM
Dead? Elaborate.Based upon the other Muslims who have renounced Islam and embraced Christianity (or even become atheists like Ibn Warraq), you would be considered dead by those closest to you and shunned by even members of your own family. I believe there's even a verse (or more) in the Koran/Quran that speaks of such a thing. It's a mental game of torture that only the strongest can survive, and works very effectively.

Thomas Trini
04-18-2009, 01:18 PM
No matter who I am, or you are, or which book it is taken out - all of us will be judged at the end according to our deeds. Nobody else's truthfulness or lack thereof will matter a wit.True. But there is only one way. Not all paths lead to the same end.

Thomas Trini
04-18-2009, 01:23 PM
(laughing) Do you really, actually believe that? I see THOUSANDS of muslim women every day and I have never seen a stoning. In fact, if someone bothers them the person who bothers them is immediately detained.

There is more talk of stoning on this site then there is where muslim women actually live (laughing)You mean kind of like when the leader of Iran says there are no homosexuals in Iran (of course not. If there are, they're all stoned to death). What about the women who are caught in adultery? Only they're stoned, but not the men. It takes two to tango.
Do you really believe that if you see a woman's ankle, knee or chin, you'll suddenly be thrown into a torrential web of sin? Women have that much power in Islam, and somehow the men are mindless in their midst?

SOUNWORTHY
04-19-2009, 06:59 AM
Dead? Elaborate.

Is this the peace loving, understanding Muslims You have been talking about? Seems to me the good old U.S.A isn't so bad after all.


In Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim country and one traditionally renowned for its religious toleration, terrorists bombed churches in 18 cities, killing scores and wounding hundreds. Violence against the Christian minority has steadily continued over the past decade." As an example, he cited the beheadings of three Christian teenage girls in Sulawesi in late October. International Christian Concern's Jeff King brought photos of the incident; the girls' heads were left at a church, each with a note that vowed, "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."

In Egypt Christians are treated as "second-class citizens" under state-sponsored discrimination and actively persecuted by Islamic militants apart from the government. He cited the week-long riot in October against St. George's Coptic Church in Alexandria by a 10,000-strong mob incensed by rumors of blasphemy.

Christians face repression in Iran. Tehran's tyrannical President Ahmadinejad met with 30 provincial governors and reportedly declared, "I will stop Christianity in this country," avowing to shut down the country's growing house-church movement.

In Saudi Arabia, Christians, a large percentage of the foreign workers making up a quarter of the population, will not be able to find any churches whatsoever to worship in. Churches are forbidden. Dozens of those who pray together in private houses were arrested and jailed earlier this year. This fanatically intolerant kingdom even forbids Muslims, under threat of death, to wish a Christian "Happy Holidays," much less "Merry Christmas."

Last Christmas in Iraq, St. John's Church near Mosul was attacked. Assyrian cultural expert Eden Naby described the scene: "The Mass begins. It is cold inside the stone church. Suddenly you hear automatic fire. The doors fly open. The Christian guards are shot, and in march armed Kurdish Peshmarga who shoot up the church, beat up the priest and drive the parishioners cowering home." In prior months, other churches in southern Iraq had been bombed by Islamic militants, some during worship services. Though the terror came from two different sources, in each case the purpose was the same to intimidate and force out the ancient Chaldo Assyrian Christian community.

Yousaf Masih, a 60-year-old illiterate janitor from northwestern Pakistan, is among those under arrest for "blasphemy" because he allegedly burned a Koran. As Paul Marshall of the Center for Religious Freedom recounted, three weeks ago in Sangala Hill, after word of his case got out, mobs destroyed three churches, a convent, a Christian school, and Christian homes. Last week a militant mob rallied to demand Masih's public hanging and the eradication of the entire Christian community there.

Walks_in_islam
04-19-2009, 07:19 AM
I guess that depends on where you live in the good ole USA doesn't it?

http://newsbusters.org/node/9932

Walks_in_islam
04-19-2009, 07:22 AM
Or not. Why don't you guys try to get this down before you look overseas and wail about what happens there?

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

StillStanding
04-19-2009, 07:53 AM
I guess that depends on where you live in the good ole USA doesn't it?

http://newsbusters.org/node/9932

Or not. Why don't you guys try to get this down before you look overseas and wail about what happens there?

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

I doubt that the murder rates in large cities in the USA have anything to do with religion or the persecution of Muslims. Most murders are committed by the unchurched, and have more to do with domestic violence, drugs and drug trafficking.

The truth is that in countries where the Muslim fallacy is dominate, they are intolerant of Christians. If you speak of toleration of Muslims in the USA, it's like comparing an ant to an elephant!

I'm sorry, but I can take only so much talk about religious myths like the Muslims faith concerning so-called "Allah" and his so-called "Prophets" before I'm ready to throw up!

Why don't you spend your time on terrorist forums that will be more receptive to your false god?

Walks_in_islam
04-19-2009, 09:37 AM
I'm quite sure that the murder rates back home have a great deal to do with both godlessness and the tolerance by a so-called 'christian society' for godless acts. A billion Muslims worldwide - and you manage to scratch up a few articles about a few scraggly criminals overseas while overlooking tens of thousands who get killed right in your own community. Do choose to be a hero and clean up your streets before you look overseas to clean up ours (which are, btw, apparantly safer for little children than your sunday school classes judging by the recent news). Perhaps I'll move back home to the good ole USA after they are cleaned up. Thank you for the invitation to leave. It is graciously declined. I got kicked around in Jesus name enough to have earned a seat here.

Walks_in_islam
04-19-2009, 10:01 AM
Do I believe that? Of course not. Do I believe that lust is sinful? I was taught that way before I knew anything about Islam. Do I believe in homosexuality? I hate the thought. Do I think they should be stoned? No. Do I believe they should be given any special rights or do I believe in homosexual marriage? No. Do I have a problem with public execution of drug dealers, murderers, child molesters, and thieves? Not always. By stoning? Interesting.....but not really lol. Do I believe adultery is wrong? Yes. Do I believe in stoning for it? No. Do I believe in repentence for it? Yes

Remember Islam teaches from the Quran, the Torah, and for the most part the writings of the old testament prophets. The penalties come from that time. Do I personally support those penalties? Sometimes. Do I believe that these should be tempered with mercy? Yes. Do I think that mercy is both taught and required in Islam but too often missing with those who are tasked to enforce the laws? Yes

Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

“The merciful are shown mercy by the All-Merciful. Show mercy to those on earth, and He Who is in heaven will show mercy unto you”

You mean kind of like when the leader of Iran says there are no homosexuals in Iran (of course not. If there are, they're all stoned to death). What about the women who are caught in adultery? Only they're stoned, but not the men. It takes two to tango.
Do you really believe that if you see a woman's ankle, knee or chin, you'll suddenly be thrown into a torrential web of sin? Women have that much power in Islam, and somehow the men are mindless in their midst?

StillStanding
04-19-2009, 12:23 PM
Are we now allowing representatives of all religions on AFF? We need to also allow Buddhism and Hinduism to go along with Islam to balance things out!

It would be interesting to see how all these false religions try to show how their religion is somehow superior to Christianity!

I have to wonder why wii is on AFF. Is he/she here to somehow try to convert us, or are they hoping to destroy this forum? Are we supposed to believe the lie that the Koraint is the word of god?

Besides arguing with a wall, what value does wii bring to this forum?

Walks_in_islam
04-19-2009, 01:05 PM
Islam vs. Christianity was not MY topic. Perhaps a better discussion would be how to live life praying regularly, fasting regularly, regularly doing charity and looking for ways to help people who need help, and believing and giving homage to (1) true and only God.

Discuss this, live this, do this, and watch your lives, families, and communities change for the better.

Do this - show how superior your religion is with actions and by spending more time talking about what you believe is good and right and less time talking about what you believe what is bad and wrong.

Are we now allowing representatives of all religions on AFF? We need to also allow Buddhism and Hinduism to go along with Islam to balance things out!

It would be interesting to see how all these false religions try to show how their religion is somehow superior to Christianity!

I have to wonder why wii is on AFF. Is he/she here to somehow try to convert us, or are they hoping to destroy this forum? Are we supposed to believe the lie that the Koraint is the word of god?

Besides arguing with a wall, what value does wii bring to this forum?

Thomas Trini
04-19-2009, 01:56 PM
I guess that depends on where you live in the good ole USA doesn't it?

http://newsbusters.org/node/9932
This is exactly what many conservative talk show hosts were trying to point out when the liberal, "drive by" media was telling us about how awful the Iraq war was during Bush's term. In World War 2, 3,000 people often died in one day. Now compare that to the 100,000+ jobs that have been lost since Obama took office 3 months ago (and won the election earlier than that).

Thomas Trini
04-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Or not. Why don't you guys try to get this down before you look overseas and wail about what happens there?

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htmI'm new to this, but I think I read in one of the posts that you used to live in the U.S. So if it's so bad, why did you even try living here?

Thomas Trini
04-19-2009, 02:03 PM
Remember Islam teaches from the Quran, the Torah, and for the most part the writings of the old testament prophets. The penalties come from that time. Do I personally support those penalties? Sometimes. Do I believe that these should be tempered with mercy? Yes. Do I think that mercy is both taught and required in Islam but too often missing with those who are tasked to enforce the laws? Yes

Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

“The merciful are shown mercy by the All-Merciful. Show mercy to those on earth, and He Who is in heaven will show mercy unto you”
Uh, oh. Here we go again.
Muhammed was illiterate. What he got from The Torah was by word of mouth from Christian missionaries. I think he even screwed up the Genesis story.

SOUNWORTHY
04-19-2009, 02:44 PM
Or not. Why don't you guys try to get this down before you look overseas and wail about what happens there?

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

And how about thius?
Sweden has been suffering under exploding crime waves since the beginning of the mass immigration era from Muslim countries. Compared to other European countries they have several hundred percent more crime in most categories.

The numbers are beyond fantastic and they are increasing. With the increasing crimewaves, there are growing incidents of mental problems in young and old. There are also new types of violence being discovered.

Swedish politicians are all equally inept because they were educated during a period of normalcy, the crimes were at “normal” levels compared to the rest of Europe. Politically Correct left-wing Politicians also are afraid to speak out about immigration policies or immigrant crime. Now Swedes are confronted with extreme violence from heavily armed large gangs who will take over a whole city during a robbery. Takeover robberys are more common and the lightly armed police have in some cases been hiding while observing the crimes take place.

Or this: 13 February 2009: Muzzammil “Mo” HASSAN, the founder and chief executive officer of Bridges TV, a Buffalo, NY based Islamic television Network he helped pioneer in 2004 amid hopes that it would help portray Muslims in a more positive light, reportedly admitted to police that he beheaded his wife at the television station yesterday afternoon.The victim was identified as Aasiya Z. Hassan, 37, who just last month, filed for and received an order of protection against her husband.

According to police, HASSAN walked into the Orchard Park police station shortly after 6:00 PM

yesterday and admitted that he murdered his wife earlier in the afternoon. While Erie County, NY District Frank A. Sedita III stated about the murder that “”…this is the worst form of domestic violence possible,” it is more pertinent to understand that the act of beheading in Islam is frequently and closely associated with “honor killings.”

The intentional mainstream media obfuscation of honor killings and the act of beheading as both relate to Islamic fundamentalist practices & beliefs is anticipated, especially in this case.

oletime
04-19-2009, 07:28 PM
this just happened in the last month or so in the new york, new jersey area where a muslim man beheaded his wife. it also was an "honor killing"

Walks_in_islam
04-20-2009, 08:29 AM
I was born in Texas. I have lived in the US (Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska) my entire life (laughing@ the "try living here" comment) So, ALL of my posts are from the perspective of a southern, conservative, former christian, truck-owning member of the NRA. So, with that in mind, please know you are talking to one of your own who has been there, done that, and has a closet full of lots of different t-shirts.

Some Muslim nut beheads his wife? There's no "honor" in that. Islam teaches us that we are our spouse's protecter and that we are like garments to each other. He appears to have failed. Miserably. With this in mind, feel free, with my fullest support, to treat him as a common criminal, committing a particularly heinous crime, and fry him. Sweden has problems? Bully. Again, start on your own streets with your own (record levels of) prison population, get that in order, then worry about Sweden. It's about looking at anything anywhere but in the mirror for you guys isn't it? (laughing)

I'm pretty sure no raggedy band of extremist villagers has a thing to do with either job losses OR crime rates back home. I believe I'll choose today to stick to the basics (prayer, fasting, charity, and One God) and try to spend as little time as possible on the other things.

As to your "hear we go" - remember (I), out of respect to this forum, generally quote the Bible, that was one of my rare quotes from the Quran. The others who post quotes from the Quran on this forum, picking and choosing to further their agenda of inciting hatred of Muslims, are no different in my mind from the raggedy extremists who pick and choose THEIR quotes to further their agendas. Extremism eventually leads down (1) path no matter where it starts.

I'm new to this, but I think I read in one of the posts that you used to live in the U.S. So if it's so bad, why did you even try living here?

Pressing-On
04-20-2009, 09:25 AM
I was born in Texas. I have lived in the US (Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska) my entire life (laughing@ the "try living here" comment) So, ALL of my posts are from the perspective of a southern, conservative, former christian, truck-owning member of the NRA. So, with that in mind, please know you are talking to one of your own who has been there, done that, and has a closet full of lots of different t-shirts.

Some Muslim nut beheads his wife? There's no "honor" in that. Islam teaches us that we are our spouse's protecter and that we are like garments to each other. He appears to have failed. Miserably. With this in mind, feel free, with my fullest support, to treat him as a common criminal, committing a particularly heinous crime, and fry him. Sweden has problems? Bully. Again, start on your own streets with your own (record levels of) prison population, get that in order, then worry about Sweden. It's about looking at anything anywhere but in the mirror for you guys isn't it? (laughing)

I'm pretty sure no raggedy band of extremist villagers has a thing to do with either job losses OR crime rates back home. I believe I'll choose today to stick to the basics (prayer, fasting, charity, and One God) and try to spend as little time as possible on the other things.

As to your "hear we go" - remember (I), out of respect to this forum, generally quote the Bible, that was one of my rare quotes from the Quran. The others who post quotes from the Quran on this forum, picking and choosing to further their agenda of inciting hatred of Muslims, are no different in my mind from the raggedy extremists who pick and choose THEIR quotes to further their agendas. Extremism eventually leads down (1) path no matter where it starts.

In the Bible it states in I Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

and II Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

II Peter being understood that men were moved on by God's Spirit, ie. Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

A discrepancy, IMO, arises in the Quran when it is said that the Quran was "sent down" from Allah (Surah 3:3, Surah 4:105; Surah 4:113;Surah 31:21; Surah 42:17; Surah 76:23) and by the Holy Spirit, Surah 26:192-194 and Surah 16:102.

If we want to compare those passages in the Quran to I Timothy and II Peter, that's okay, but here is where the Quran deviates and becomes confusing in the authorship:

In Surah 53:2-18 and Surah 81:19:24, we read that the "one Mighty in Power" himself is the one who personally delivered the inspiration to Mohammend and that Mohammed did see Him - yet - in Surah 2:97 it states that "Gabriel" brought the Quran down to Mohammed's heart by God's will.

"Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah.s will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-" - Surah 2:97.


Again in Surah 15:7-9 it says that "angels" have brought truth.

Surah 15:7 “Why bringest thou not angels to us if it be that thou hast the Truth?"

15:8 "We send not the angels down except for just cause: if they came (to the unAllahly), behold! no respite would they have!"

15:9 "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

We do know where the Bible originated, we are confused as to where the Quran originated. Any comments?

Walks_in_islam
04-20-2009, 11:09 AM
It is said that the Quran was delivered to Mohammed by an angel.

My only comment is that when I am confused about something I thoroughly research it for discrepencies from the text and requirements of God's law handed down since the beginning of time to Abraham, Moses, and the prophets after them. Research generally works for me and I am cynical as it is. My advice then would be, if you are truly curious, and not speaking idle words, to search for the answer to your questions. You are certainly able to search for what you are supposed to do with your life in your own Bible. It is there. Even the Quran says it is there.

So the apostle Paul was God-inspired, yes? Follow his words and your churches will look like mosques anyway.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak. They are commanded to be under obedience. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church"

"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off, and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved, she should cover her head"

God-Inspired? Why don't christians follow it then? "re-interpreted?"

In the Bible it states in I Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

and II Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

II Peter being understood that men were moved on by God's Spirit, ie. Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

A discrepancy, IMO, arises in the Quran when it is said that the Quran was "sent down" from Allah (Surah 3:3, Surah 4:105; Surah 4:113;Surah 31:21; Surah 42:17; Surah 76:23) and by the Holy Spirit, Surah 26:192-194 and Surah 16:102.

If we want to compare those passages in the Quran to I Timothy and II Peter, that's okay, but here is where the Quran deviates and becomes confusing in the authorship:

In Surah 53:2-18 and Surah 81:19:24, we read that the "one Mighty in Power" himself is the one who personally delivered the inspiration to Mohammend and that Mohammed did see Him - yet - in Surah 2:97 it states that "Gabriel" brought the Quran down to Mohammed's heart by God's will.




Again in Surah 15:7-9 it says that "angels" have brought truth.



We do know where the Bible originated, we are confused as to where the Quran originated. Any comments?

Pressing-On
04-20-2009, 11:24 AM
It is said that the Quran was delivered to Mohammed by an angel.

My only comment is that when I am confused about something I thoroughly research it for discrepencies from the text and requirements of God's law handed down since the beginning of time to Abraham, Moses, and the prophets after them. Research generally works for me and I am cynical as it is. My advice then would be, if you are truly curious, and not speaking idle words, to search for the answer to your questions. You are certainly able to search for what you are supposed to do with your life in your own Bible. It is there. Even the Quran says it is there.

So the apostle Paul was God-inspired, yes? Follow his words and your churches will look like mosques anyway.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak. They are commanded to be under obedience. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church"

"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off, and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved, she should cover her head"

God-Inspired? Why don't christians follow it then? "re-interpreted?"
We have several threads on that very subject, so I'm not going to re-open this new topic you have brought up.

The Bible doesn't confuse us as to who placed God's Word in our hearts and hands. The Quran, by it's very writings contradict it's own origin. That is the topic. I would like to stay on that very topic as it's the root of the matter.

According to the Hadith, Mohammed's writings were collected from fragments from tablets of stone, ribs of palm branches, camels' shoulder blades and ribs, pieces of board and the breasts of men.

Mishkat al Masabih, Sh. M. Ashraf, Lahore (1990) p. 469. Also Bukhari Vol. 9 No. 301.

It is also said that some of the first attempts at compiling Mohammed's writings were by his daughter, Fatimah. She had to contest some of the facts with some of her father's followers because different versions were being recited by the people. It is also said that Mohammed's wife, Hafsa, also helped in the compilation.

I've also read that the final work was credited to Zaid ibn Thabit, whom some believe was merely the editior.

The origins is what I am interested in here - not the various writings in either book. We can get into that some other time.

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 12:58 PM
I was born in Texas. I have lived in the US (Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska) my entire life (laughing@ the "try living here" comment) So, ALL of my posts are from the perspective of a southern, conservative, former christian, truck-owning member of the NRA. So, with that in mind, please know you are talking to one of your own who has been there, done that, and has a closet full of lots of different t-shirts.

Some Muslim nut beheads his wife? There's no "honor" in that. Islam teaches us that we are our spouse's protecter and that we are like garments to each other. He appears to have failed. Miserably. With this in mind, feel free, with my fullest support, to treat him as a common criminal, committing a particularly heinous crime, and fry him. Sweden has problems? Bully. Again, start on your own streets with your own (record levels of) prison population, get that in order, then worry about Sweden. It's about looking at anything anywhere but in the mirror for you guys isn't it? (laughing)

I'm pretty sure no raggedy band of extremist villagers has a thing to do with either job losses OR crime rates back home. I believe I'll choose today to stick to the basics (prayer, fasting, charity, and One God) and try to spend as little time as possible on the other things.

As to your "hear we go" - remember (I), out of respect to this forum, generally quote the Bible, that was one of my rare quotes from the Quran. The others who post quotes from the Quran on this forum, picking and choosing to further their agenda of inciting hatred of Muslims, are no different in my mind from the raggedy extremists who pick and choose THEIR quotes to further their agendas. Extremism eventually leads down (1) path no matter where it starts.As I said, I'm fairly new to these posts (I generally stick to Debate rooms), so I only breifly read something about you living here in the U.S., and then moved to Saudi Arabia. While you may bash the U.S., please note that PBS recently noted that the Middle East has the highest rate of mental retardation in the world. That's not a slur, it's fact. Might explain some things as to the "honor killings" and stuff like that. Might also be the result of all that inbreeding you guys do. You think we're attracted to your women? Are you kidding me? I've seen the Muslim women without their veils (usually it's the married ones, right?).
WOOF.
I've seen better faces on horses.
Sadly, I've also seen them try and walk across the street here as well. The men must still be allowed to beat their wives. It's like watching an 80 year old woman, and yet they're about half that age.
I find it interesting that you want me to quote a book (the Bible) in which you can't accept because Jesus was crucified. You claim ignorance when it comes to Muhammed (his illiteracy). I don't understand a culture (such as Islam) in which it's perfectly fine to wipe your butt with your bare hands, but claim handling pork is "unclean." Please explain that one. That's a real puzzler to me. Incidentally, if ham is so unclean, why does Mu-HAM-med have the word ham in it? Get that one.
By the way, please tell me why Muslims NEVER admit that they're wrong. Everything's based upon what others did, even when there's a Muslim on Muslim crime here, they claim that it's wrong for the American outsiders to get involved. Even the 9/11 attacks were blamed on Americans. They can never admit when they are wrong.
The reason I don't follow Islam is because it's god is not a god of love. There is no such thing as forgiveness. This has been pointed out a number of times by former Muslims. It's a religion based upon fear.

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 01:01 PM
I'm quite sure that the murder rates back home have a great deal to do with both godlessness and the tolerance by a so-called 'christian society' for godless acts. A billion Muslims worldwide - and you manage to scratch up a few articles about a few scraggly criminals overseas while overlooking tens of thousands who get killed right in your own community. Do choose to be a hero and clean up your streets before you look overseas to clean up ours (which are, btw, apparantly safer for little children than your sunday school classes judging by the recent news). Perhaps I'll move back home to the good ole USA after they are cleaned up. Thank you for the invitation to leave. It is graciously declined. I got kicked around in Jesus name enough to have earned a seat here.Then why are Muslims coming here if it's so bad? Incidentally, I know about the 3 Muslim houses: The house of peace (until Muslims are a majority), the house of War (when Muslims are a majority) and the House of neutrality (I believe) is the third one.

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 01:03 PM
Are we now allowing representatives of all religions on AFF? We need to also allow Buddhism and Hinduism to go along with Islam to balance things out!
Buddhism is nothing more than repackaged atheism. Hinduism? Don't kill that cow. It might be Uncle Charlie.

oletime
04-20-2009, 03:04 PM
tt your killing me, i dont think ive laughed any harder after reading your posts # 82,83,84 wii cant be reached right now, he is out doing some more charity work , like using smaller rocks for stonings.

Walks_in_islam
04-20-2009, 03:06 PM
Dunno. Why are so many expats moving with their families over here if it's so good there? They're coming in droves (laughing) Maybe it's a 'greener grass thing' and not about religion or politics at all. Either way, the crime statistics stand for themselves. Cross that with the taxes, job situation, banking situation over there and I had enough. I just wanted some peace and quiet, and the chance to actually keep what I earn for awhile.

Then why are Muslims coming here if it's so bad? Incidentally, I know about the 3 Muslim houses: The house of peace (until Muslims are a majority), the house of War (when Muslims are a majority) and the House of neutrality (I believe) is the third one.

Walks_in_islam
04-20-2009, 03:09 PM
I will politely say that this post does not warrant a reply. Points for idle entertainment though. I nominate this as the "Alan Greenspan post of the day". Lots of words, nothing specific, nothing of value, nothing that would sway the markets.

As I said, I'm fairly new to these posts (I generally stick to Debate rooms), so I only breifly read something about you living here in the U.S., and then moved to Saudi Arabia. While you may bash the U.S., please note that PBS recently noted that the Middle East has the highest rate of mental retardation in the world. That's not a slur, it's fact. Might explain some things as to the "honor killings" and stuff like that. Might also be the result of all that inbreeding you guys do. You think we're attracted to your women? Are you kidding me? I've seen the Muslim women without their veils (usually it's the married ones, right?).
WOOF.
I've seen better faces on horses.
Sadly, I've also seen them try and walk across the street here as well. The men must still be allowed to beat their wives. It's like watching an 80 year old woman, and yet they're about half that age.
I find it interesting that you want me to quote a book (the Bible) in which you can't accept because Jesus was crucified. You claim ignorance when it comes to Muhammed (his illiteracy). I don't understand a culture (such as Islam) in which it's perfectly fine to wipe your butt with your bare hands, but claim handling pork is "unclean." Please explain that one. That's a real puzzler to me. Incidentally, if ham is so unclean, why does Mu-HAM-med have the word ham in it? Get that one.
By the way, please tell me why Muslims NEVER admit that they're wrong. Everything's based upon what others did, even when there's a Muslim on Muslim crime here, they claim that it's wrong for the American outsiders to get involved. Even the 9/11 attacks were blamed on Americans. They can never admit when they are wrong.
The reason I don't follow Islam is because it's god is not a god of love. There is no such thing as forgiveness. This has been pointed out a number of times by former Muslims. It's a religion based upon fear.

StillStanding
04-20-2009, 03:29 PM
Funny thread! :D

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 04:02 PM
wii cant be reached right now
Oh, you mean the alternate to the next playstation 3 (lol). Wii?

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 04:09 PM
Dunno. Why are so many expats moving with their families over here if it's so good there? They're coming in droves (laughing) Maybe it's a 'greener grass thing' and not about religion or politics at all. Either way, the crime statistics stand for themselves. Cross that with the taxes, job situation, banking situation over there and I had enough. I just wanted some peace and quiet, and the chance to actually keep what I earn for awhile.
Sorry. I don't believe it at all. I've been to the Middle East, namely Bahrain, and seen the hatred Muslims have for Americans. It's enough to make your hair stand on end. I've seen the hatred in thjeir eyes. As I said, you don't understand Christianity because your God is not a god of love. Merely hatred. When we left Bahrain, we hadn't slept for 18+ hours. As soon as we were airborne and off Arab soil, we laid back and the entire plane was full of snoring soldiers and sailors (alliteration?). But not until then.
You don't like the taxes in the U.S.? You mean you don't like supporting your fellow Muslim brothers and sisters in the faith who live off the American welfare system, free medical (using emergency rooms), food stamps and other stuff?
Do you notice where King Hussein (of Jordan) goes to when he feels really sick? It's not an Arab country. Notice that all the Kings have foreign wives, and not Arab ones? Or very few? You can huff and puff, but America is the best. You hate the U.S. because we are the best.
If I ever make it back to the Middle East, it'll be to defend Israel.

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 04:10 PM
I will politely say that this post does not warrant a reply. Points for idle entertainment though. I nominate this as the "Alan Greenspan post of the day". Lots of words, nothing specific, nothing of value, nothing that would sway the markets.Are you chicken Allah king? By the way, I'll take Alan Greenspan over the idiot who's running things now: Geitner.
You may not like the posts, but I suspect you understand aggression better than love.

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 04:22 PM
I will politely say that this post does not warrant a reply. Points for idle entertainment though. I nominate this as the "Alan Greenspan post of the day". Lots of words, nothing specific, nothing of value, nothing that would sway the markets.Then I'll do it piece by piece. In Islam, why is handling ham and other pork products "unclean," but wiping your rear with your bare hands is OK, and not unclean?

Thomas Trini
04-20-2009, 04:24 PM
tt your killing me, i dont think ive laughed any harder after reading your posts # 82,83,84 wii cant be reached right now, he is out doing some more charity work , like using smaller rocks for stonings.I wasn't trying to be funny. But thanks.

shawndell
04-21-2009, 08:11 AM
It is said that the Quran was delivered to Mohammed by an angel. Sounds like what Joseph Smith Said about angels comming to him with the book of morman.God is the same today and always he does not change why would he give differant books that sdays differant things to differant people?:heart:heart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My only comment is that when I am confused about something I thoroughly research it for discrepencies from the text and requirements of God's law handed down since the beginning of time to Abraham, Moses, and the prophets after them. Research generally works for me and I am cynical as it is. My advice then would be, if you are truly curious, and not speaking idle words, to search for the answer to your questions. You are certainly able to search for what you are supposed to do with your life in your own Bible. It is there. Even the Quran says it is there.

So the apostle Paul was God-inspired, yes? Follow his words and your churches will look like mosques anyway.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak. They are commanded to be under obedience. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church"The holyghost was given to all souls,and he is niether male or female!!:heart:heart ----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
"If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off, and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved, she should cover her head"My hair is my covering because it is a shame to have my hair cut!:heart ---
-----------------------------------------------------------------
God-Inspired? Why don't christians follow it then? "re-interpreted?"
You cant speak for everybody!!!!!!!:heart ---------------------

Thomas Trini
04-21-2009, 12:07 PM
You cant speak for everybody!!!!!!!:heart ---------------------I think "Walks in Islam" is so used to living under a specific set of laws, and nothing else (Friday worship at a Mosque, no pork, prayer 5 times a day, go to Mecca at least once in his life, etc., etc.) that he can never understand Christianity. To him, God keeps a record of all of his rights and wrongs. Yet as Isaiah said, "his righteousness is as filthy rags." I think his cynical attitude only applies to us examining Christianity, and not the reverse. I don't think he ever dares to ask if Muhammed was illiterate or anything else like that, or the contradictions within Islam. He'd be beheaded if he did.

Walks_in_islam
04-22-2009, 11:43 AM
NEWS: When you bring your unwelcome arrogant attitudes and message to other countries, and get them addressed with prejudice, do not whine about it: Stop and consider that if you were offering something good, something people actually see as good and something they wanted, they would welcome you. You offer nothing of value, so you are not welcomed. Do you get it? People want something good, something of value, something that will change their lives. Instead, they get you and your kind. No wonder they react so forcefully.

You then twitter among yourselves inventing outside "enemies" (of your own making, usually raggedy villagers) to pound senseless while your neighborhoods, cities, states, and nation decay around you. If anything you had to offer was life-changing or valuable the change would certainly be expected to start in your own neighborhoods.

The thought of beheadings, executions, or otherwise bothers me very little. I will die someday anyway, and I will face God and state that I did what was in front of me to do, did not shirk on what I was supposed to do, and He may then do as he wishes with me. Your shallow, foolish words on this do not matter now nor will they matter then. I fully intend to ask Him why He sprinkled smelly little piles of you on His otherwise beautiful earth. It is a question I have. Many around the world have that same question.

Chicken??? I and my family live in a place where any day, any time I could be mistaken for one of you and killed outright - just to send a message to you to show how little value you offer to the world and unwelcome you are to the rest of the world. It however appears that I walk these streets daily anyway - and this does not bother me. You will probably need to qualify that chicken thing a bit. The chicken is leaving piles that resemble your message of "love" and "hope" to the world.

KWSS1976
04-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Walks I will have to agree with ya we do interfear in other countries business to much when we got our own stuff to work out..LOL

Praxeas
04-22-2009, 12:56 PM
Then why are Muslims coming here if it's so bad? Incidentally, I know about the 3 Muslim houses: The house of peace (until Muslims are a majority), the house of War (when Muslims are a majority) and the House of neutrality (I believe) is the third one.
After they make war they neutralize us?

Thomas Trini
04-22-2009, 01:15 PM
NEWS: When you bring your unwelcome arrogant attitudes and message to other countries, and get them addressed with prejudice, do not whine about it: Stop and consider that if you were offering something good, something people actually see as good and something they wanted, they would welcome you. You offer nothing of value, so you are not welcomed. Do you get it? People want something good, something of value, something that will change their lives. Instead, they get you and your kind. No wonder they react so forcefully.

You then twitter among yourselves inventing outside "enemies" (of your own making, usually raggedy villagers) to pound senseless while your neighborhoods, cities, states, and nation decay around you. If anything you had to offer was life-changing or valuable the change would certainly be expected to start in your own neighborhoods.

The thought of beheadings, executions, or otherwise bothers me very little. I will die someday anyway, and I will face God and state that I did what was in front of me to do, did not shirk on what I was supposed to do, and He may then do as he wishes with me. Your shallow, foolish words on this do not matter now nor will they matter then. I fully intend to ask Him why He sprinkled smelly little piles of you on His otherwise beautiful earth. It is a question I have. Many around the world have that same question.

Chicken??? I and my family live in a place where any day, any time I could be mistaken for one of you and killed outright - just to send a message to you to show how little value you offer to the world and unwelcome you are to the rest of the world. It however appears that I walk these streets daily anyway - and this does not bother me. You will probably need to qualify that chicken thing a bit. The chicken is leaving piles that resemble your message of "love" and "hope" to the world.
I'm guess I'm realizing why you can't accept Christianity at all. You live in a world of no gratitude whatsoever. You said you lived in the United States. Really? You don't act like it. You serve a God (Allah) who has no love, and is not a loving God. Just a tyrant.
What has the U.S. given the Arab countries? We found oil in your countries (Exxon, Mobil and others) and then, instead of keeping it (as we should have), we allowed your leaders to take it over and use its profits to build up your countries(and many of these countries have gasoline at 99 cents a gallon). We overthrew your dictators (not just Hussein), but you want others who are worse. When the Shah of Iran was taken out of office by Jimmy Carter, you chose a far more evil leader: Khomeni. Still, we fed your people when your own leaders were unwilling to, and kept much of it for themselves. Still we sent more. And more. We flew your people with cleft palates into our countries at no charge, or came there and did it at no cost to you. We sent thousands of vaccines for you at no cost. We flew people with crippling diseases to the U.S. and fixed them up, and sent them home. We built many of your cities. After the tsunami several years ago, we sent hundreds of ships and planes when acts of God (perhaps your God?) killed and injured your own people in Indonesia. When earthquakes devastate your cities, we're the first ones to show up. Not even your own Muslim brothers and sisters raise money for their own citizens (unless it's to kill Israelis, then the fundraising money pours in by the boatload). We send Christian missionaries to care for the sick and the lame that you reject. And what do we get in return? Usually a knife to the throat. Unlike Muslims, we don't ask what your religion is, and then kill any non-believers who don't act the way you do.
When we send aid to the Hamas (a terrorist organiztion), we expect them to live up to their word. But we know deep inside that they are liars, and it would be used for bullets and bombs rather than butter, eggs, meat, grains and milk. But we hope maybe their citizens will see that hypocrisy, and overthrow such bullies, who use lies to stay in power. Yet we're the ones who are viewed so wrong? Your brothers and sisters are so brainwashed as to think that Jews actually are fed drops of the blood of Muslims mixed with their baby milk. What nonsense you must use in order to believe that. How ungrateful you must be in order to accept this.
Something of value? Try over a billion dollars that your own, oil rich despots won't give to anyone. When food aid arrives in your Middle Eastern countries, much of it is stolen by your leaders. When Saddam Hussein was captured, remember all that money he had? He could have fed hundreds for over a year on that money alone. His own people. Yet he chose to keep it, and let your people starve, and live without running water. What about all of those who die by sand spiders? The next time one of your brothers or sisters in the faith has malaria, TB, syphillus or any other disease, guess who'll be there for you? It won't be a fellow Muslim.
You want love?
It doesn't originate from Islam. It originates from the hospitals which were founded on Christian principles, and the very first ones were formed by Christian missionaries.
Mistaken for one of us? I worked with bombs in the military. They're so accurate we could pick out which window pane in your house to put them through. Yet because your military leaders are cowards, and hide in schools and hospitals behind innocent civilians, you cry when they die. You never force them out to fight like a man, and go somewhere where there are no innocent people. Like I said, Muslims can never say, even once, that they're ever, ever, ever wrong. To do so must be some crazy beilef that is related to your unforgiving attitude and belief system.
In World War One, when General Pershing found one of your Muslim brothers fighting in the war, he interrogated them by tying them up in a chair, and sticking a bucket of pig's blood above their head. If they refused to talk, he pulled a rope, and the pig's blood dumped on the Muslim fighter. He then shot them in the head. While others may not know what this means, you do. Anyone who dies as a result of this after being "showered" with the blood of (an "unclean") pig goes straight to Hell in your belief system. Oh, if only we did that today, or dipped our bullets in pigs blood fighting against Islamo-Nazis. Instead, we try and fight more "civilized" and "honorable" ways with people that have no honor, and know no such things. Instead, you come to our country and don't even bother lifting up the toilet seat when you pee. Like a little boy, you don't. Evidently, it's "unclean," and you let the janitors wipe it up.

Thomas Trini
04-22-2009, 01:16 PM
After they make war they neutralize us?I didn't do that in order. But I think the third house is neutral. I know the first 2 are right.

StillStanding
04-22-2009, 01:39 PM
NEWS: When you bring your unwelcome arrogant attitudes and message to other countries, and get them addressed with prejudice, do not whine about it: Stop and consider that if you were offering something good, something people actually see as good and something they wanted, they would welcome you. You offer nothing of value, so you are not welcomed. Do you get it? People want something good, something of value, something that will change their lives. Instead, they get you and your kind. No wonder they react so forcefully.

You then twitter among yourselves inventing outside "enemies" (of your own making, usually raggedy villagers) to pound senseless while your neighborhoods, cities, states, and nation decay around you. If anything you had to offer was life-changing or valuable the change would certainly be expected to start in your own neighborhoods.

The thought of beheadings, executions, or otherwise bothers me very little. I will die someday anyway, and I will face God and state that I did what was in front of me to do, did not shirk on what I was supposed to do, and He may then do as he wishes with me. Your shallow, foolish words on this do not matter now nor will they matter then. I fully intend to ask Him why He sprinkled smelly little piles of you on His otherwise beautiful earth. It is a question I have. Many around the world have that same question.

Chicken??? I and my family live in a place where any day, any time I could be mistaken for one of you and killed outright - just to send a message to you to show how little value you offer to the world and unwelcome you are to the rest of the world. It however appears that I walk these streets daily anyway - and this does not bother me. You will probably need to qualify that chicken thing a bit. The chicken is leaving piles that resemble your message of "love" and "hope" to the world.

For the record, I have nothing against you (I don't know you) , but I do despise the religious foolishness that you are spewing! Your religion of hate and control doesn't resonate well in a society accustomed to freedom of religion.

With your religion of deception, you are better off anyways where people mostly agree with you. There are not as many gullible people in the USA that would be receptive to your fallacy!

I see that you are happy and live a perfected life overseas somewhere. Why don't you and your new-found friends please leave us alone, so WE can be happy and blessed by god?

Thomas Trini
04-22-2009, 01:48 PM
I will die someday anyway, and I will face God and state that I did what was in front of me to do, did not shirk on what I was supposed to do, and He may then do as he wishes with me.
But are you following the right God? That is the biggest question of all.
Are you really happy always following a list of do's and don't, rather than realizing you can never be perfect. The perfect (Christ) died in your place (for the imperfect). Even Christ is greater than Muhammed in your own Quran. Yet you follow Muhammed. Why?

Thomas Trini
04-22-2009, 02:33 PM
NEWS: When you bring your unwelcome arrogant attitudes and message to other countries, and get them addressed with prejudice, do not whine about it: Stop and consider that if you were offering something good, something people actually see as good and something they wanted, they would welcome you. You offer nothing of value, so you are not welcomed. Do you get it? People want something good, something of value, something that will change their lives. Instead, they get you and your kind. No wonder they react so forcefully.
How do you do this when things like compassion and love are viewed as a weakness, and those who practice such a thing are viewed by Muslims as fools? You (Muslims) never examine why we do it. Instead, you view us as idiots, and something in which to be exterminated. If all Muslims in the world today laid down their arms, there would be world wide peace. If we (The U.S. and/or Israel) did such a thing, and destroyed all of our weapons, we would be killed immediately. There are over 30 wars throughout the world. The majority, if not all, involve Muslims (including Muslim vs. Muslim). Maybe a gospel of hatred and a gospel of love can never exist in your world. If you want changed lives and something of value, accept Christianity.

Thomas Trini
04-22-2009, 05:43 PM
NEWS:
You then twitter among yourselves inventing outside "enemies" (of your own making, usually raggedy villagers) to pound senseless while your neighborhoods, cities, states, and nation decay around you. If anything you had to offer was life-changing or valuable the change would certainly be expected to start in your own neighborhoods.
If you examine the Old Testament at any length, you will see that this is spoken about in the Bible. I believe it's in Joshua where it says "If my people, who are called by My Name, shall humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will heal their land.
I find it interesting that in the last few years, I've seen Muslims in the U.S. quoting this very passage (which originated from the Jews), and changing it to Allah.
Strange that Muslims will quote an Old Testament verse, as if it originated from Muhammed, rather than Joshua (which is an O.T. word for Jesus.
There are other verses in both the Old and New Testament that speak of this as well.
Twitter? I think this (AFF) is more of a blog than a "twitter."

Thomas Trini
04-22-2009, 06:17 PM
Wii,
What is your opinion of Dr. Caner and Caner, who left Islam?
TT

Praxeas
04-22-2009, 06:58 PM
I didn't do that in order. But I think the third house is neutral. I know the first 2 are right.
Ever read "Because They Hate"?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=0254D867-5759-4F49-B2F5-AC09EC3754FB

Walks_in_islam
04-22-2009, 09:24 PM
For the record the only point of answering the nonsense about Islam on this site is to present another view. You are decidedly welcome to your version of weak, shallow, lukewarm devotion to God, but....please stop acting stunned when said version is decidedly noted as unwelcome to the rest of the world. You probably limit said version to idle chatter at your own parties where each of you can pat, support, and validate each other' views and comfortably live out your lives doing so. (based on data, I would agree with you in full that there appear to be few gullable people in your own neighborhoods who accept YOUR nonsense much less MY "foolishness"). If prayer, fasting, charity, and One-God, which are the basic elements of Islam and which you say I have "spewed" as "religious foolishness", then certainly that "religiousness foolishness" was spewed thousands of years ago. Call it deception or anything you want. If it is, then every action above took roots from the beginning of time when God first laid out his requirements in your own bible so what say you to that? Implying that said foolishness originated with me or even with the Quran ranges from laughable to pathetic. When EVERY GROWN MAN in your neighborhood stops his day once a week to go to your local church and listen and pray then I believe you can say that your message has value to your community. When your community is free of drugs and alcohol you can say your message has value. When your community is free of guns you can say your message has value. When your community is free of debt you can say your message has value. When your wife or daughter is safe on the streets of your community because the people around you truly believe in their hearts that they are not to bother them then you can say that your message has value. I know your message well I have lived it. I also know your communities well I grew up in them. None of these things are true. I, (like most of your fellow americans) reject what you are selling because there is no value, no change, no peace, no love, no hope, and no good in it. Your churches are BUSINESSES and that is all that can be said of them. Like politicians, your pastors have for the most part never worked a day in their lives but propose to advise those who do on how to live their lives. They are not in the least bit like Jesus, who did work among, live among, and suffer with those he taught. They have not experienced the day-to-day struggles of normal, working people and in my mind are not in the least bit qualified to guide them. God bless the pastors who do live and teach like Jesus did. There are so few of them.

Imams FYI and on the other hand do not receive money from those they teach. They do not collect salaries or negotiate packages from their communities. They are working people who have their own jobs in their communities. That difference alone from the shiny hair-sprayed pastors of today who spend far more time negotiating packages than they ever spend teaching around their communities should be at a minimum a subject of discussion (among yourselves please). Like you, your pastors and teachers instead limit themselves to their self-absorbed, back-patting groups and rarely venture out among the "publicans and sinners". If you don't know why I will tell you. They have nothing of value to offer to those communities and dealing with "publicans and sinners" certainly is not a good 'business model' for a 'growing church'.

You call my religion hate and control from resentment only that yours is not accepted either at home and abroad. Advice - get out among the PEOPLE around you and show them something of value that will change their lives and offer them something they can live by and live for. Every Muslim I know stands for every value you are supposed to be sharing.

For the record, I have nothing against you (I don't know you) , but I do despise the religious foolishness that you are spewing! Your religion of hate and control doesn't resonate well in a society accustomed to freedom of religion.

With your religion of deception, you are better off anyways where people mostly agree with you. There are not as many gullible people in the USA that would be receptive to your fallacy!

I see that you are happy and live a perfected life overseas somewhere. Why don't you and your new-found friends please leave us alone, so WE can be happy and blessed by god?

Walks_in_islam
04-22-2009, 09:59 PM
Jesus himself prayed to "Eloi" from his cross. The personal term for God in Aramaic is Alaha. This was the mother tongue of Jesus. In Hebrew it is Alah, Elah, or Eloh. The name for God in Islam is Allah, it has roots to those tongues. God's law originated with Abraham. The Quran references many, many Old Testament Prophets (by name) as messengers of God and as messengers their words are part of God's law. The Quran cautions that one should follow the words of all of these messengers. YOU say "originated with Mohammed". The Quran lists Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Lot, Moses, Aaron, Ezekiel, David, Solomon, Elias, Elisha, Jonah, Zechariah, John, and Jesus as being Messengers of God. At least, when showing your piercing wit, try not to be deceptive and surely try not to marginalize these words from your own bibles just because they come from me. "shooting the messenger" does not change the outcome of the message as the Isrealites discovered many times to their misfortune when they turned away from it. "Muslims" and "Muslim countries" who modify, hijack for their own gain or power, and turn away from this message discover this regularly BTW, to their own misfortune. The words of each messenger from God are attributed to the messenger who originally stated them and are certainly (and correctly) attributed to them as Gods message to people. The words that spell out God's laws in the Quran are in your own bibles. Which, is why, earlier, even I advised you to pick up and read and know your own bibles. Following your bible as a guide to live your life certainly requires nothing else, as stated in the Quran in reference to "people of the book who follow the laws of the book" aka christians. It is the oldest temptation of the devil - to convince one to pick and choose what and which parts of God's law are palatable and which are not, resulting in a watered-down version and a win for him anyway. Take note of this.

The particular passage mentioned is not a Muslim passage at all. This is advice to you from your own Bible. It is a start to healing your own neighborhoods and communities and in advising this there is certainly and absolutely no personal gain to me. The fact that every time it is mentioned it is resented says much about you people BTW. Another thing to note.

If you examine the Old Testament at any length, you will see that this is spoken about in the Bible. I believe it's in Joshua where it says "If my people, who are called by My Name, shall humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will heal their land.
I find it interesting that in the last few years, I've seen Muslims in the U.S. quoting this very passage (which originated from the Jews), and changing it to Allah.
Strange that Muslims will quote an Old Testament verse, as if it originated from Muhammed, rather than Joshua (which is an O.T. word for Jesus.
There are other verses in both the Old and New Testament that speak of this as well.
Twitter? I think this (AFF) is more of a blog than a "twitter."

Walks_in_islam
04-22-2009, 10:00 PM
I believe it was GOD who said it.

If you examine the Old Testament at any length, you will see that this is spoken about in the Bible. I believe it's in Joshua where it says "If my people, who are called by My Name, shall humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will heal their land.
I find it interesting that in the last few years, I've seen Muslims in the U.S. quoting this very passage (which originated from the Jews), and changing it to Allah.
Strange that Muslims will quote an Old Testament verse, as if it originated from Muhammed, rather than Joshua (which is an O.T. word for Jesus.
There are other verses in both the Old and New Testament that speak of this as well.
Twitter? I think this (AFF) is more of a blog than a "twitter."

Walks_in_islam
04-22-2009, 10:25 PM
My arms are laid down. They are safely sitting back in the good ole US of A where they were made and sold. World peace indeed. Where do the implements of war come from anyway? Who made, developed, trained, propped up, and supplied the Osamas and Taliban of the world anyway? You say "Muslims" and indeed you will make me laugh.

NOTE and FYI: God does not allow the destruction of those who walk in His path and follow His laws. He NEVER has. Your faith in Him is impressive though. With your version of faith, perhaps it would be better hold on to all those weapons after all. How sad though. As you erode from within you will realize that all the weapons, bombs, and guns did you no good. The outcome of turning away from God is the same since the beginning of time and nothing changes it. Put YOUR weapons down and walk these streets with nothing but faith like I do before you spout about your "gospel of love" from behind a scope aimed at people who believe in God the way I believe in Him.

There are NO gun shops, gun manufacturers, gun suppliers around here. What are those 30 wars being fought with then? OH, i forgot. How rude of me. They are fought with the "gospel of love" that you people export. Real extermination of real people takes place in places like the Palestenian camps with bullets stamped "made in USA". You can keep your "gospel of love" and save it for a time you export that instead of exporting bullets, guns, and other instruments of violence. That time never has come and will never come. Conclusion: Keep it then and bat it around at your parties among yourselves while your community withers in darkness.

How do you do this when things like compassion and love are viewed as a weakness, and those who practice such a thing are viewed by Muslims as fools? You (Muslims) never examine why we do it. Instead, you view us as idiots, and something in which to be exterminated. If all Muslims in the world today laid down their arms, there would be world wide peace. If we (The U.S. and/or Israel) did such a thing, and destroyed all of our weapons, we would be killed immediately. There are over 30 wars throughout the world. The majority, if not all, involve Muslims (including Muslim vs. Muslim). Maybe a gospel of hatred and a gospel of love can never exist in your world. If you want changed lives and something of value, accept Christianity.

Walks_in_islam
04-22-2009, 11:33 PM
Considering John in revelations "God keeps a record of all of his rights and wrongs" and furthermore stating that all of us will be judged according to our works or deeds it is a waste of words attributing that to me, to Muslims, or to anyone else living today. If that is not true, take it out of the next version like the first 11 verses of chapter 8 in the Gospel of John were taken out. Feel free to vote them out like Mark 16:19, Luke 24:15, and John 8 1-10which were removed in the RSV in 1952 (then later restored in 1972 - laughing - do make your minds up it just plain looks bad when "inspired scripture" has to be continuously removed, restored, and polished every few years to mean whatever the flavor of the time decides it means)

Coming from someone who follows a book re-written so badly that they authors couldn't even get something as simple as the names of the 12 apostles of Jesus right (Matthew 10 and Mark 3 has one list while Luke 6 has another) certainly does not give much weight to your words. Point out the direct and specific contradictions in the Quran if you will. I contend that I have noted many from the Bible while asking about them and the only answer I received was "they teach us that in our first two years of bible college". I contend that I am not surprised about the two year thing. So, starting with a simple question - who WERE the 12 disciples of Christ? Since the original Aramaic and Hebrew texts were destroyed by the same council who eliminated anything written by anyone who actually lived and walked with Jesus it is likely that you (or I) will ever know.

I think "Walks in Islam" is so used to living under a specific set of laws, and nothing else (Friday worship at a Mosque, no pork, prayer 5 times a day, go to Mecca at least once in his life, etc., etc.) that he can never understand Christianity. To him, God keeps a record of all of his rights and wrongs. Yet as Isaiah said, "his righteousness is as filthy rags." I think his cynical attitude only applies to us examining Christianity, and not the reverse. I don't think he ever dares to ask if Muhammed was illiterate or anything else like that, or the contradictions within Islam. He'd be beheaded if he did.

shawndell
04-23-2009, 09:07 AM
NEWS: When you bring your unwelcome arrogant attitudes and message to other countries, and get them addressed with prejudice, do not whine about it: Stop and consider that if you were offering something good, something people actually see as good and something they wanted, they would welcome you. You offer nothing of value, so you are not welcomed. Do you get it? People want something good, something of value, something that will change their lives. Instead, they get you and your kind. No wonder they react so forcefully.

You then twitter among yourselves inventing outside "enemies" (of your own making, usually raggedy villagers) to pound senseless while your neighborhoods, cities, states, and nation decay around you. If anything you had to offer was life-changing or valuable the change would certainly be expected to start in your own neighborhoods.

The thought of beheadings, executions, or otherwise bothers me very little. I will die someday anyway, and I will face God and state that I did what was in front of me to do, did not shirk on what I was supposed to do, and He may then do as he wishes with me. Your shallow, foolish words on this do not matter now nor will they matter then. I fully intend to ask Him why He sprinkled smelly little piles of you on His otherwise beautiful earth. It is a question I have. Many around the world have that same question.

Chicken??? I and my family live in a place where any day, any time I could be mistaken for one of you and killed outright - just to send a message to you to show how little value you offer to the world and unwelcome you are to the rest of the world. It however appears that I walk these streets daily anyway - and this does not bother me. You will probably need to qualify that chicken thing a bit. The chicken is leaving piles that resemble your message of "love" and "hope" to the world.If a true child of God goes to another country to give the truth of the new birth into the Kingdom of God and they reject it then they become the children of perdition when broken down that means the child of satan.God knows in advance who his children are from the beginning of time,and there are only two sets of children on this plannet,Gods and satans!We christians are not to cast our pearl among the swine!When you dont choose Jesus you choose satan and thats the bottom line!!The wheat will be seperated from the tares or weeds if you will!!

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 02:49 PM
Ever read "Because They Hate"?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=0254D867-5759-4F49-B2F5-AC09EC3754FB
No, but I have heard the author interviewed on various radio stations at least 5 times. I think I do have it on my bookshelf though. I believe a "neutral" house would be somnething like Pakistan or Jordan, which appear to be neutral, but are playing games with us.

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:13 PM
My arms are laid down. They are safely sitting back in the good ole US of A where they were made and sold. World peace indeed. Where do the implements of war come from anyway? Who made, developed, trained, propped up, and supplied the Osamas and Taliban of the world anyway? You say "Muslims" and indeed you will make me laugh.

NOTE and FYI: God does not allow the destruction of those who walk in His path and follow His laws. He NEVER has. Your faith in Him is impressive though. With your version of faith, perhaps it would be better hold on to all those weapons after all. How sad though. As you erode from within you will realize that all the weapons, bombs, and guns did you no good. The outcome of turning away from God is the same since the beginning of time and nothing changes it. Put YOUR weapons down and walk these streets with nothing but faith like I do before you spout about your "gospel of love" from behind a scope aimed at people who believe in God the way I believe in Him.

There are NO gun shops, gun manufacturers, gun suppliers around here. What are those 30 wars being fought with then? OH, i forgot. How rude of me. They are fought with the "gospel of love" that you people export. Real extermination of real people takes place in places like the Palestenian camps with bullets stamped "made in USA". You can keep your "gospel of love" and save it for a time you export that instead of exporting bullets, guns, and other instruments of violence. That time never has come and will never come. Conclusion: Keep it then and bat it around at your parties among yourselves while your community withers in darkness.Ha. The Palestinians? You're going to use them as an example? Really? Come on, now. Get real. They were thrown out of every Arab country they tried to live in. Yassir Arafat had to flee Egypt dressed as a woman. The other Muslims despise the Palestinians. They're nothing but troublemakers even among your own people.

No guns shops over there? that's funny, everytime I see them celebrate, they fire off guns into the air (I wonder how many Muslims have been killed by the bullets coming back down?).

And yes, God certainly does allow the "destruction" of those who walk in his path. He allowed Jesus to die on a cross for your sins. He does it to accomplish a goal. To save you from sins you can never wash away, no matter how many stones you throw at that black rock in Mecca. Besides, if you really felt that God never allows the "destruction" of those who walk in His path, then why in the world do even follow Islam. Doesn't it say in the Quran/Koran that Allah will not allow his enemies to conquer Muslims? But what about the crusades? We (Christians) beat the snot out of Muslims over 800 years ago, and they've been ticked off ever since. We've beaten you (Muslims) more than once, too. You're being a hypocrite when you say that "God" doesn't allow the destruction of his people.

Did you ever watch Star Trek when you lived here in the good old U S of A? Well, the Muslims remind me an awful lot of the Klingons in Star Trek. In fact, I joke with my wife whenever I hear people speaking Arabic over here and say "they're speaking Klingon." Always wanting war, war, war.

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:17 PM
The particular passage mentioned is not a Muslim passage at all. This is advice to you from your own Bible. It is a start to healing your own neighborhoods and communities and in advising this there is certainly and absolutely no personal gain to me. The fact that every time it is mentioned it is resented says much about you people BTW. Another thing to note.I agree. Yet I see scores of Muslims driving around in cars that say the very next verse in Joshua: "As for me and my house, we will serve Allah." That's not a verse from the Koran/Quran. I snicker when I see it. They're just validating the authenticity of the Bible. Not the Quran/Koran/(who ran)?

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:24 PM
Jesus himself prayed to "Eloi" from his cross. The personal term for God in Aramaic is Alaha. This was the mother tongue of Jesus. In Hebrew it is Alah, Elah, or Eloh. The name for God in Islam is Allah, it has roots to those tongues.
Have you ever done research as to the origin of words such as Allah? It was originally a pagan moon god. You know, like the crescent (moon) in many of your Muslim countries. Muhammed merely tried to all of the warring tribes. the origin of the black stone in Mecca is also pagan, and began long before 622 A.D.
Merely because the words Allah and Elio seem to resemble eachother doesn't mean much. If I say "Blah, Blah" as opposed to Allah, am I praying to any God? And as to tongues, well, we all have one (except when Muslims cut them out as a punishment for something. Like speaking?)

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:29 PM
For the record the only point of answering the nonsense about Islam on this site is to present another view. Ummm. Duh. That's why we're here as well. We'd be sad to see you go. But you still haven't answered many of our questions. But if we ask the wrong thing, you suddenly become "The Tasmanian Devil" like in The Looney Tunes cartoons. Blah Er agga uh tee ho vaga eeerk. Quite a visual cartoon bubble in our heads.

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:32 PM
Considering John in revelations "God keeps a record of all of his rights and wrongs" and furthermore stating that all of us will be judged according to our works or deeds it is a waste of words attributing that to me, to Muslims, or to anyone else living today. If that is not true, take it out of the next version like the first 11 verses of chapter 8 in the Gospel of John were taken out. Feel free to vote them out like Mark 16:19, Luke 24:15, and John 8 1-10which were removed in the RSV in 1952 (then later restored in 1972 - laughing - do make your minds up it just plain looks bad when "inspired scripture" has to be continuously removed, restored, and polished every few years to mean whatever the flavor of the time decides it means)
You mean you actually have a copy of the Bible over there? I tried finding one when I was in the Hotel in Bahrain. Nope. Only a Quran (written in Arabic). Fat lotta good that does me. Guess there's nothing like The Gideons over there. They've got bullets to load.

shawndell
04-23-2009, 03:36 PM
I think "Walks in Islam" is so used to living under a specific set of laws, and nothing else (Friday worship at a Mosque, no pork, prayer 5 times a day, go to Mecca at least once in his life, etc., etc.) that he can never understand Christianity. To him, God keeps a record of all of his rights and wrongs. Yet as Isaiah said, "his righteousness is as filthy rags." I think his cynical attitude only applies to us examining Christianity, and not the reverse. I don't think he ever dares to ask if Muhammed was illiterate or anything else like that, or the contradictions within Islam. He'd be beheaded if he did.Brother Thomas Im just wondering why he is even on AFF?This is a Christian forum,and I think we got a devil in the house.:heart

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Coming from someone who follows a book re-written so badly that they authors couldn't even get something as simple as the names of the 12 apostles of Jesus right (Matthew 10 and Mark 3 has one list while Luke 6 has another) certainly does not give much weight to your words. Point out the direct and specific contradictions in the Quran if you will. I contend that I have noted many from the Bible while asking about them and the only answer I received was "they teach us that in our first two years of bible college". I contend that I am not surprised about the two year thing. So, starting with a simple question - who WERE the 12 disciples of Christ? Since the original Aramaic and Hebrew texts were destroyed by the same council who eliminated anything written by anyone who actually lived and walked with Jesus it is likely that you (or I) will ever know.
Why is it you want me to answer those questions when you won't answer any about Islam and it's countless contradictions. As Aisha is said to have to have mentioned about Muhammed when he accused Aisha of "adultery (a 9 year old adulteress?): "Allah always seems ready to give a revelation to him just at the right time."
But again, is that your best puzzler on the Bible that you can throw at us? A difference in names by 2 different authors? Come on now. You can find the answer to that on the internet if that's what really puzzles you.

StillStanding
04-23-2009, 03:40 PM
Brother Thomas Im just wondering why he is even on AFF?This is a Christian forum,and I think we got a devil in the house.:heart
I think he is someone just playing the part of a Muslim! A real Muslim wouldn't waste their time here! He's someone just having fun with us! :)

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:41 PM
Brother Thomas Im just wondering why he is even on AFF?This is a Christian forum,and I think we got a devil in the house.:heartOur God is greater (FAR GREATER) than his little teensy, weensy "wannabe" god. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Or in this case Beelzebub.

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:42 PM
I think he is someone just playing the part of a Muslim! A real Muslim wouldn't waste their time here! He's someone just having fun with us! :)If he is, it'll show in time.

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:50 PM
Coming from someone who follows a book re-written so badly that they authors couldn't even get something as simple as the names of the 12 apostles of Jesus right (Matthew 10 and Mark 3 has one list while Luke 6 has another) certainly does not give much weight to your words. Point out the direct and specific contradictions in the Quran if you will. We've found copies dating back thousands of years, whether it's the Old or New Testament, and the differences between today's "re-written" Bibles are virtually non-existant as to be laughable. Remember Qumran and The Dead Sea scrolls? I wonder how many copies of the Koran ("written" by an illiterate prophet) there are that come from 622 A.D.
Now contrast this with Homer's "The Iliad." There are far more errors, and a lapse between the writing and today.
Ever read "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell(former skeptic)? The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel(former atheist)?

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 03:57 PM
Since the original Aramaic and Hebrew texts were destroyed by the same council who eliminated anything written by anyone who actually lived and walked with Jesus it is likely that you (or I) will ever know.Really? Then how do The Gnostic Gospels, The Apocrpha and other texts (e.g. The Babylonian account of creation) still exist today? How about the laws of Hammurabi?
Chances are probably better that the false ones became absolutely worthless, kind of like the books that even a used bookstore can't get rid of for a dollar or less. Eventually, when you're freezing to death, they become "firewood."

Thomas Trini
04-23-2009, 04:05 PM
I contend that I have noted many from the Bible while asking about them and the only answer I received was "they teach us that in our first two years of bible college". I contend that I am not surprised about the two year thing. So, starting with a simple question - who WERE the 12 disciples of Christ? Since the original Aramaic and Hebrew texts were destroyed by the same council who eliminated anything written by anyone who actually lived and walked with Jesus it is likely that you (or I) will ever know.I have yet to get an answer on any of them, or even Arab culture and "unclean" habits. I have yet to see why using toilet paper is viewed as something weird in Arab culture.
The difference in the names of the disciples, if you read all four gospels is clear, some even point out things like that. Peter was called a) Cephas; b) Peter and c) Simon. All three are true. Don't you have two
names> heck, I even see on the news once in a while a guy named Muhammed (First name) Muhammed (middle name) Muhammed (last name). Get that one. Guess you guys save a bundle on name tags. You can print up 1,000 with Muhammed, and they'll all be gone by the end of the day. Must be tough at parties, though. Where's Muhammed?......Which one?:ursofunny

Trouvere
04-23-2009, 04:28 PM
I am so glad I know who Jesus is.

shawndell
04-23-2009, 05:21 PM
I think he is someone just playing the part of a Muslim! A real Muslim wouldn't waste their time here! He's someone just having fun with us! :):heeheehee:lol:killinme:killinme Maybe he is!:heart

shawndell
04-23-2009, 05:23 PM
Our God is greater (FAR GREATER) than his little teensy, weensy "wannabe" god. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Or in this case Beelzebub.Yes!! Thank the lord we are not decieved!:heart:heart:hanky:hanky:girlnails

Praxeas
04-23-2009, 06:47 PM
Jesus himself prayed to "Eloi" from his cross. The personal term for God in Aramaic is Alaha. This was the mother tongue of Jesus. In Hebrew it is Alah, Elah, or Eloh. The name for God in Islam is Allah, it has roots to those tongues. God's law originated with Abraham. The Quran references many, many Old Testament Prophets (by name) as messengers of God and as messengers their words are part of God's law. The Quran cautions that one should follow the words of all of these messengers. YOU say "originated with Mohammed". The Quran lists Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Lot, Moses, Aaron, Ezekiel, David, Solomon, Elias, Elisha, Jonah, Zechariah, John, and Jesus as being Messengers of God. At least, when showing your piercing wit, try not to be deceptive and surely try not to marginalize these words from your own bibles just because they come from me. "shooting the messenger" does not change the outcome of the message as the Isrealites discovered many times to their misfortune when they turned away from it. "Muslims" and "Muslim countries" who modify, hijack for their own gain or power, and turn away from this message discover this regularly BTW, to their own misfortune. The words of each messenger from God are attributed to the messenger who originally stated them and are certainly (and correctly) attributed to them as Gods message to people. The words that spell out God's laws in the Quran are in your own bibles. Which, is why, earlier, even I advised you to pick up and read and know your own bibles. Following your bible as a guide to live your life certainly requires nothing else, as stated in the Quran in reference to "people of the book who follow the laws of the book" aka christians. It is the oldest temptation of the devil - to convince one to pick and choose what and which parts of God's law are palatable and which are not, resulting in a watered-down version and a win for him anyway. Take note of this.

The particular passage mentioned is not a Muslim passage at all. This is advice to you from your own Bible. It is a start to healing your own neighborhoods and communities and in advising this there is certainly and absolutely no personal gain to me. The fact that every time it is mentioned it is resented says much about you people BTW. Another thing to note.
Again Jesus said Eli...which is My God. Hebrew is Elohim, Eloh and El...that reflects Plural, singular and shortened singular. The PERSONAL name is Yahweh second personal and first personal is Ehyeh

Praxeas
04-23-2009, 06:59 PM
Contradictions in the Quran
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

Praxeas
04-23-2009, 07:01 PM
has the Quran been changed?
http://www.muslimhope.com/ChangesInTheQuran.htm

http://www.muslimhope.com/ChangesInTheQuran.htm

Praxeas
04-23-2009, 07:03 PM
archeological proof

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran

Walks_in_islam
04-23-2009, 10:18 PM
If so it is a devil who regularly advises you to turn to and study your bibles (laughing)@idea of being the "debbil"
Our God is greater (FAR GREATER) than his little teensy, weensy "wannabe" god. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Or in this case Beelzebub.

Walks_in_islam
04-23-2009, 11:49 PM
Prax - I will re-iterate but thank you again for making my point for me.

The words that spell out God's laws in the Quran are in your own bibles. Which, is why, earlier, even I advised you to pick up and read and know your own bibles. Following your bible as a guide to live your life certainly requires nothing else, as stated in the Quran in reference to "people of the book who follow the laws of the book" aka christians. (Careful, do not listen, these could be the words of the "devil")

From your post: These are the teachings that (I) have been taught:

Sura 29:46 "Dispute ye not with the people of the book, except in the best way, unless it be with those of them who do wrong but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God is your God is One; and it is to Him we submit (in Islam)."

"And remember Allah took a Covenant from the people of the book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!" in Sura 3:187.

While this Sura criticizes some who were called people of the book, it does not in any way criticize the book God gave to mankind.

I do not reject your book or the requirements in your book. I do reject the parts of it that specifically result in actions and instructions that Jesus himself did not do or teach to do.

has the Quran been changed?
http://www.muslimhope.com/ChangesInTheQuran.htm

http://www.muslimhope.com/ChangesInTheQuran.htm

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 12:12 AM
Here is your answer - I have never seen a bathroom in a Muslim country that does not have toilet paper. I have only personally visited (4) of them (Muslim countries, not bathrooms - qualified for the easily distracted). Maybe you have a vast well of personal experience to draw on that I do not have. My understanding of the basis behind your question is that culturally they wash their backsides after doing their business. Possible reasons could be that they have no problem with bathing or washing (like the truck-driving, "raghead"-screeching rednecks seem to have) or perhaps they feel cleaner after washing. I do not know. Please do not be stunned, but unlike you I have had neither time nor inclination to study in detail the personal actions of my fellows after doing their personal business. Probably my level of interest on these things in your view should be higher. We will unfortunately have a difference of opinion on this and I do not believe we will ever see eye-to-eye on priorities like these. I do not guide my life nor make decisions based on what someone else does in his or her bathroom. Thank you for the question.

I will now advise that you engage in some personal research. Try not to get beat up or arrested while doing so. Good luck. (I expect no sympathy for you even from a random jury of good ole boys). Additional advice - fully conclude your research before you start serving your sentence. Explanation, I am sure, is not needed.

OH. The apostles have aliases. Thank you for clarifying that. Your reference to Arab names is amusing but missed me entirely. Neither I nor my wife are Arab. Thanks for the laugh.

I have yet to get an answer on any of them, or even Arab culture and "unclean" habits. I have yet to see why using toilet paper is viewed as something weird in Arab culture.
The difference in the names of the disciples, if you read all four gospels is clear, some even point out things like that. Peter was called a) Cephas; b) Peter and c) Simon. All three are true. Don't you have two
names> heck, I even see on the news once in a while a guy named Muhammed (First name) Muhammed (middle name) Muhammed (last name). Get that one. Guess you guys save a bundle on name tags. You can print up 1,000 with Muhammed, and they'll all be gone by the end of the day. Must be tough at parties, though. Where's Muhammed?......Which one?:ursofunny

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 12:13 AM
Ya reckon?

I think he is someone just playing the part of a Muslim! A real Muslim wouldn't waste their time here! He's someone just having fun with us! :)

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 12:15 AM
I am limiting my comments ONLY to texts (gospels) that were at one time included in the original Bible.

Really? Then how do The Gnostic Gospels, The Apocrpha and other texts (e.g. The Babylonian account of creation) still exist today? How about the laws of Hammurabi?
Chances are probably better that the false ones became absolutely worthless, kind of like the books that even a used bookstore can't get rid of for a dollar or less. Eventually, when you're freezing to death, they become "firewood."

Praxeas
04-24-2009, 12:16 AM
I do not reject your book or the requirements in your book. I do reject the parts of it that specifically result in actions and instructions that Jesus himself did not do or teach to do.
You asserted the bible was full of contradictions, that parts were removed or changed at Nicea, but you never proved that. Yet I post a link about contradictoins in the quran and you have nothing to say?

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 12:39 AM
I did not "assert". I specifically listed them one by one and even got started on chapter and verse. Remember the joking about your "assignment"? I listed them until I simply got tired of typing them in.

You have never denied that the Gospel of Barnabas outlining the story of Jesus (you know, Barnabas - he is mentioned <favorably> in Acts) was removed Prax. You also never denied that the penalty of posession of these writings was, at the time, death. I am (for some unknown reason lol) under the impression that it was removed. Feel free to point me to the correct path at any time. After you do, I then have some questions about some other texts. These questions can wait in the wings.

I am taking the time to review these "contradictions". I did not have the luxury of "the first (2) years of Bible college" to 'clear up' possible contradictions. I just woke up (laughing) It's morning here. Stand down soldier. Unlike some here, it takes time and work to provide answers to you. For me it is a good exercise in study anyway.

You asserted the bible was full of contradictions, that parts were removed or changed at Nicea, but you never proved that. Yet I post a link about contradictoins in the quran and you have nothing to say?

Praxeas
04-24-2009, 01:15 AM
I did not "assert". I specifically listed them one by one and even got started on chapter and verse. Remember the joking about your "assignment"? I listed them until I simply got tired of typing them in.

You asserted many things, then you turn around and deny it.

You have never denied that the Gospel of Barnabas outlining the story of Jesus (you know, Barnabas - he is mentioned <favorably> in Acts) was removed Prax.
You've never proven it was "removed". You make a lot of assertions but no substance to your assertions.

You also never denied that the penalty of posession of these writings was, at the time, death.
You've never proven the penalty for possession was death and, honestly I don't give a hoot that it was. What does that have to do with me?

I am (for some unknown reason lol) under the impression that it was removed.
Prove it was removed. Prove it is supposed to be there. Prove it is a valid book to begin with. Again lot's of assertions but no substance to them

Feel free to point me to the correct path at any time. After you do, I then have some questions about some other texts. These questions can wait in the wings.
You have more than questions, you are making assertions then not backing them up

I am taking the time to review these "contradictions". I did not have the luxury of "the first (2) years of Bible college" to 'clear up' possible contradictions.
All you need is a brain and some time alone with God in prayer, you don't need bible college. Maybe you spent some years in Quran college so you can clear up the contradictions in the Quran?

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 03:50 AM
I did not "assert" I listed discrepencies. For your reminder:

1. David was incited to count the fighting men of Isreal. In 2nd Samuel, God incited him. In I Chronicles, Satan incited him. When they were counted, 2nd Samual says 800,000 and I Chronicles says 1.1 MM.
2. God threatens David with 7 years of famine in 2nd Samuel, 3 years of famine in I Chronicles.
3. Ahaziah was 22 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings. He was 42 in 2nd Chronicles.
4. Jehoiachin was 18 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings, 8 when he began his rule in 2nd Chronicles
5. David's "chief of mighty men" killed 800 men at one time in 2nd Samuel and 300 men at one time in I Chronicles
6. David carried the Ark into Jerusalem AFTER defeating the Philistines in 2nd Samuel. Before defeating them in Chronicles 13/14
7. David captured 1700 horsemen after defeating the King of Zobah in 2nd Samuel, 7000 in I Chronicles.
8. Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses in I Kings. 4000 stalls in 2nd Chronicles.
9. During King Asa's reign Baasha King of Isreal died in the 26th year in I Kings. He was still alive in the 36th year in I chronicles.
10. Solomon appointed 3600 overseers to build the temple in 2nd chronicles. 3300 in I Kings.
11. Solomon built a facility containing 2000 baths in I kings. It had 3000 in 2nd chronicles.
Isrealites freed from Babylonian captivity:
Children of Pahrath-Moab:
2812 Ezra. 2818 Nehemiah
Children of Azgad:
1222 Ezra. 2333 Nehemiah
And so on. The total numbers agree in each book as 42,360, but if you add each individual column from each book Ezra adds to 29,818 and Nehemiah adds to 31,089
There were 200 singers in the assembly in Ezra and 245 in the assembly in Nehemiah.
King Abijah's mother's name was Michaiah, daughter of Uriel in one chapter of 2nd chronicles and Maachah daughter of Absalom in another chapter. Absalom however had only one daughter mentioned whose name was Tamar in 2nd Samuel.
Joshua and the Isrealites captured Jerusalem in Joshua 10 and did not capture it in Joshua 15.
Father of Joseph, husband of Mary was Jacob in Matthew and Heli in Luke
Jesus descended from Solomon in Matthew and from Nathan in Luke
The father of Shealtiel was Jechoniah in Matthew and Neri in Luke
Abiud son of Zerubbabel was the anscestor of Jesus in Matthew and Rhesa son of Zerubbabel in Luke. Neither are mentioned as sons of Zerubbabel in the list in I Chronicles.
Father of Uzziah was Joram in Matthew and Amaziah in 2nd Chronicles
Father of Jechoniah was Josiah in Matthew and Jeholakim in I Chronicles
The angel stated that Jesus would inherit the throne of David in Luke. But Matthew says he is a descendent of Jehoiakim and I Chronicles says "and Jehoiaikim was cursed by god so that none of his descendents can sit upon David's throne" Oops.
Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt in Mark and Luke and a colt/donkey in Matthew
Simon Peter found out that Jesus was Christ from a heavenly revelation in Matthew, but his brother Andrew told him in John.
Jesus met Simon and Andrew by the Sea of Galilee in Matthew and on the banks of the Jordan in John
Jairus' daughter was dead when he met Jesus in Matthew but not dead / at the point of death in Mark
The disciples were allowed to keep a staff on their journeys in Mark. They were not allowed in Matthew and Luke
Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist in Matthew and Mark. He did not in Luke.
John the Baptist recognized Jesus in John. He did not recognize him in Matthew.
Jesus cleansed the temple the day he entered Jerusalem in Matthew. He spent the night in Bethany and cleansed it the next day in Mark
Judas kissed Jesus in Matthew. He did not in John
The curtain in the temple was rent after Jesus died in Matthew and Mark. Before Jesus died in Luke.
Both thieves mocked Jesus in Mark. One mocked, one defended in Luke
Jesus ascended to paradise on the day of crucifixion in Luke. He said to Mary he has not yet ascended (two days later) in John
The apostle Paul and companions on the road to Damascus:
All heard the voice in Acts 9. Not all heard the voice in Acts 22
The companions fell to the ground in Acts 26. They did not in Acts 9
The voice spelled out Paul's duties in Acts 26. The voice told him to go to Damascus in Acts 9. [/B]

You on the other hand have openly stated NO contradictions. You and I can point to links all day. You have examples. Assert them (laughing)

If the Apostle of Barnabas was not removed, just say so. Writings that I have read indicate that it was. Show some backbone, stand up, and say "no, that is not true". You can even elaborate and follow up with details of what the Council DID do. My years of college were spent learning to be a productive part of society aka do work. In addition to the two years of "Explaining Scriptural Discrepencies: I also missed:

Logic 101: How to convince sheep that "cover your head or shear it" ACTUALLY means "have hair on your head".
Art 101: "Application of even shiny coats of hair spray for your congregation"
Economics 101, also known as Optimization: "Minimizing the Number of Poor or Brown people in Church: The Business Model of Today". Offered with a lab on "Spending more time raising money for teaching the gospel than actually teaching the gospel"
Let's not forget the Bible College Classes on Christian Intellectual Property: "If a Brown Person Thought of It, It Becomes Christian European Property"
Debate 101: "How to Challenge Your Opponent for Hours Without Saying Anything Specific" (NOTE - You are awarded an A+)

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 12:30 PM
You deny or still "assert" (laughing) that a group of old men did NOT decide (long after Jesus was taken back to Heaven) what was and was not to be part of the Bible?

Since you asked, and I feel charitable, and you either do not or pretend not to know, I will, like I listed your requested discrepencies, list them for you:

(from the notes but hey no proof that the actual notes are real. maybe some sneaky muslims slipped this into the canonical law hundreds of years before islam?)

Further Enumeration of Apocryphal Books:

In the first place we confess that the Synod at Ariminum which was convened by the emperor Constantius, the son of Constantine, through the prefect Taurus is damned from then and now and forever.

Itinerary (book of travels) under the name of the apostle Peter,
which is called The Nine Books of the holy Clement apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Andrew apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Thomas apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Peter apocryphal
Acts under the name of the apostle Philip apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Matthias apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Barnabas apocryphal
Gospel under the name of James the younger apocryphal
Gospel under the name of the apostle Peter apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Thomas, which the Manicheans use apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Bartholomaeus apocryphal
Gospel under the name of Andrew apocryphal
Gospel which Lucian has forged apocryphal
Gospel which Hesychius has forged apocryphal
Book about the childhood of the Redeemer apocryphal
Book about the birth of the Redeemer and about Mary or the midwife apocryphal
Book which is called by the name of the Shepherd apocryphal
All books which Leucius, the disciple of the devil, has made apocryphal
Book which is called The Foundation apocryphal
Book which is called The Treasure apocryphal
Book about the daughters of Adam: Leptogenesis(?) apocryphal
Cento about Christ, put together in Virgilian lines apocryphal
Book which is called the Acts of Thecla and of Paul apocryphal
Book which is ascribed to Nepos apocryphal
Book of the Sayings, compiled by heretics and denoted by the name of Sixtus apocryphal
Revelation which is ascribed to Paul apocryphal
Revelation which is ascribed to Thomas apocryphal
Revelation which is ascribed to Stephen apocryphal
Book which is called the Home-going of the Holy Mary apocryphal
Book which is called the Penitence of Adam apocryphal
Book about the giant Ogias,
of whom the heretics assert that after the flood he fought with the dragon apocryphal
Book which is called The Testament of Job apocryphal
Book which is called The Penitence of Origen apocryphal
Book which is called The Penitence of the Holy Cyprian apocryphal
Book which is called The Penitence of Jamnes and Mambres apocryphal
Book which is called The Portion of the Apostles apocryphal
Book which is called The Grave-plate(?) of the Apostles apocryphal
Book which is called the Canones of the Apostles apocryphal
The book Physiologus, compiled by heretics and called by the name of the blessed Ambrose apocryphal
The History of Eusebius Pamphili apocryphal
Works of Tertullian apocryphal
Works of Lactantius (later addition: or of Firmianus or of the African) apocryphal
Works of Postumianus and of Gallus apocryphal
Works of Montanus, of Priscilla and of Maximilla apocryphal
Works of Faustus the Manichean apocryphal
Works of Commodianus apocryphal
Works of the other Clement of Alexandria apocryphal
Works of Thascius Cyprian apocryphal
Works of Arnobius apocryphal
Works of Tichonius apocryphal
Works of Cassian, a presbyter in Gaul apocryphal
Works of Victorinus of Pettau apocryphal
Works of Faustus of Riez in Gaul apocryphal
Works of Frumentius Caecus apocryphal
Epistle of Jesus to Abgar apocryphal
Epistle of Abgar to Jesus apocryphal
Passion (Martyr Acts) of Cyricus and of Iulitta apocryphal
Passion of Georgius apocryphal
Writing which is called Interdiction (Exorcism?) of Solomon apocryphal
All amulets which have been compiled not, as those persons feign,
in the name of the angels, but rather in that of the demons apocryphal

StillStanding
04-24-2009, 01:08 PM
Ya reckon?
Enjoy your fun! :)

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 01:18 PM
Alas 1% fun, 99% senseless bickering. ----------> (:blah)

Enjoy your fun! :)

StillStanding
04-24-2009, 01:20 PM
Alas 1% fun, 99% senseless bickering. ----------> (:blah)
agreed! :)

shawndell
04-24-2009, 01:50 PM
agreed! :):killinme:killinme:popcorn2

Thomas Trini
04-24-2009, 02:48 PM
I am limiting my comments ONLY to texts (gospels) that were at one time included in the original Bible.There is no "original Bible." I'll say it again. The Bible is a collection of 66 books, 39 of which are in the Old Testament (there's a little "college trick" to remembering this The word OLD has 3 letters, the word TESTAMENT has 9 letters=3 (first number) AND 9 (second number) is 39). You can't do this with the words NEW TESTAMENT. It's the same number. But if you know that the Bible has 66 books, you can figure it out yourself. 66-39=27 (books in the New Testament).
The Bible was fought over and discussed for centuries. It was not thrown together haphazardly like the Book of Mormon or the Quran. If the Quran had undergone as much scrutiny as the Bible before being "published," it probably wouldn't have been "released" until after 1,000 A.D.
Note to WiI: If the Bible was released as the Quran was (written by one author), we would only have one book (and not 66) from which to validate our beliefs. take out 65 of them, and that's how The Bible compares to the Quran as far as testimonies, prophecies, history, Psalms. Proverbs and more. In other words, your prophet does a lousy job of writing about his god. Much of it is borrowed from what he heard from Christian missionaries. Funny how the angel Gabriel (from the Gospel accounts) winds up revealing The Quran to Muhammed. He was a plagariarist. Or do all the angels of heaven have the name Gabriel like the Muslims of today have the name Muhammed for their children? If your version of heaven is real, is everyone in it named Muhammed and Gabriel? Couldn't Muhammed been a little more original, perhaps like the Mormon angel: Moroni, who revealed The Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith in 1820, and chose a different name?
With that said, the Bible is a series of books, written over a period of 2,000 years, all validating the same thing. That God (the God of Israel) spoke to various prophets, kings and common men revealing certain things about Himself and His plan for mankind. It was not written by just one man (even Moses had an "editor"). If the Jewish scribes made any errors in making copies, it was immediately burned. There are probably dozens of sites to point this out.
I dismiss many of your questions, such as the difference in the apostles 12 names because they appear to be "red herrings" or silly little "rabbit trails" that go no where, and do not appear to be your greatest concern. There are far bigger questions that you could play "stump the Christian" with, such as where did Cain and Abel get their wives?
Hey, at least Jesus had 12 apostles to validate his ministry. Muhammed had none. Plus, since Jesus had 12 apostles, we can choose from more than one name for our sons (since Mathais replaced Judas, we can use that one). 13 if you count Jesus, or as the Spanish pronounce it: "hey suess." Like the guy who wrote "Green Eggs and Ham." Ooooooops. I said ham on an Islamic chat line. So we don't just have Muhammed from which to choose as a name for our sons.

Thomas Trini
04-24-2009, 03:08 PM
You deny or still "assert" (laughing) that a group of old men did NOT decide (long after Jesus was taken back to Heaven) what was and was not to be part of the Bible?

Since you asked, and I feel charitable, and you either do not or pretend not to know, I will, like I listed your requested discrepencies, list them for you:

(from the notes but hey no proof that the actual notes are real. maybe some sneaky muslims slipped this into the canonical law hundreds of years before islam?)
Your list is long, and I only get so much time on the computer before the system boots me out (unless there are computers available, then I get an extension of time). So, I'll deal with one of the books:The biggest reason "The Gospel of Thomas" was thrown out can be found in the very last verse, in which 'Jesus' says He will change women into men because women aren't allowed in heaven. If you have a chance to read it (it can be viewed on the internet if you wish), The Gospel of Thomas is also just a series of alleged sayings which claim to have originated from the lips of Jesus. There is no historical context as to when it was said (Jesus' childhood? After the Resurrection? During his crucifixion? The 3 years of ministry?). There are also no duplicate accounts in other "Gospels" (fake or real) as to these sayings. There is no account of who was there as Jesus said this (was it public or private?). There is no account as to what provoked these statements, or who asked it. Scripture also says that we must have two witnesses in any legal dispute. Since this Gospel (of Thomas) is essentially a "legal document," (claiming to be valid), there is no other "witness" as to its validity.
Understand?
If you were back in the U.S., you could go to your average Barnes & Noble and find scores of books refuting these Apocraphal books. However, since your in a society which does not allow for this, I suggest you do research on this when you come back. In many ways, perhaps you should act like a Jewish scholar, and question, question, question. The Bible allows for this. The Quran does not, and if you do, you will be shot for blasphemy. Am I wrong?

Thomas Trini
04-24-2009, 03:27 PM
Here is your answer - I have never seen a bathroom in a Muslim country that does not have toilet paper. I have only personally visited (4) of them (Muslim countries, not bathrooms - qualified for the easily distracted). Maybe you have a vast well of personal experience to draw on that I do not have. My understanding of the basis behind your question is that culturally they wash their backsides after doing their business. Possible reasons could be that they have no problem with bathing or washing (like the truck-driving, "raghead"-screeching rednecks seem to have) or perhaps they feel cleaner after washing. I do not know. Please do not be stunned, but unlike you I have had neither time nor inclination to study in detail the personal actions of my fellows after doing their personal business. Probably my level of interest on these things in your view should be higher. We will unfortunately have a difference of opinion on this and I do not believe we will ever see eye-to-eye on priorities like these. I do not guide my life nor make decisions based on what someone else does in his or her bathroom. Thank you for the question.

I will now advise that you engage in some personal research. Try not to get beat up or arrested while doing so. Good luck. (I expect no sympathy for you even from a random jury of good ole boys). Additional advice - fully conclude your research before you start serving your sentence. Explanation, I am sure, is not needed.

OH. The apostles have aliases. Thank you for clarifying that. Your reference to Arab names is amusing but missed me entirely. Neither I nor my wife are Arab. Thanks for the laugh.I was not speaking about public bathrooms. I merely wished to ask why they have such an aversion to toilet paper, and consider it disgusting. I do not understand the desire to essentially stick a garden hose up there and pretty much do a colonoscopy. Is there an aversion to showers? I know back here, we find Muslims trying to take baths in the sinks, 4 feet above the floor, attempting to wash their feet, while a number of people outside the door of the restroom are pretty close to defecating outside the bathroom (in their clothes) while Muhammed washes his feet. Hasn't he ever heard of "Baby Wipes?"
It's like the Muslims over here who apply and get jobs at the Hormel meat packing plant, which has pork products, and then cry about having to handle pork, and ask for special changes in handling the pork. Then why did you get a job at a pork processing plant? It's not the only job in the city.
But alas, I guess I'm just a silly little redneck for asking such common sense questions.
Aliases? A nickname is not an alias. I'm sure you have nicknames for your children or wife (if you're married). Even Jesus addressed God as "Father," but also "Abba," which essentially means "Daddy."
Which leads me to ask, does Allah only have one name? I'm not talking about the 99 other names that are essentially nothing more than a bunch of "Hail Mary's" that a good Muslim must recite.
If he does, what's the big deal about Peter having 2 other names?

Thomas Trini
04-24-2009, 03:30 PM
If so it is a devil who regularly advises you to turn to and study your bibles (laughing)@idea of being the "debbil"I think I was referring more to Allah than you.

Thomas Trini
04-24-2009, 03:38 PM
I am limiting my comments ONLY to texts (gospels) that were at one time included in the original Bible.There are also "Inter-Testamental" books that were written between the Old and New Testament, which can be found in most Catholic Bibles. If you check your history, they were not put into the Catholic Bible until after Luther questioned their authority among the Catholics. They provide a good context in which to view many of the questions which were directed at Jesus. For Protestants, its more of a historical set of books from which we can better understand the New Testament. The Apostle Paul didn't open up his Bible and go to John 1:1.
Note to WiIThe Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers can also be of good help to understand the first 500 years of Church History. Some of these books even point out why other books of The Bible were rejected.

Thomas Trini
04-24-2009, 03:52 PM
Debate 101: "How to Challenge Your Opponent for Hours Without Saying Anything Specific" (NOTE - You are awarded an A+)A ha. But you didn't respond to any of his list of discrepancies of the Quran. Guess you'd lose your head if you did that, though, huh? Literally.

Thomas Trini
04-24-2009, 05:52 PM
Coming from someone who follows a book re-written so badly that they authors couldn't even get something as simple as the names of the 12 apostles of Jesus right (Matthew 10 and Mark 3 has one list while Luke 6 has another) certainly does not give much weight to your words.

Here's an answer to that dilemma. I suggest you read John MacArthur's book: "Twelve Ordinary Men" and find it there. Oh, I forgot. You're in a Muslim country where that isn't possible(unlike Muslims over here being "forbidden" by Christians).

In Matthew 10:2-4; Mark 316-19; Luke 6:14-16 and Acts 1:13 are nothing more than a list of 12 men. There is no "order" to it as a list of 12 men, but a subset of 3 groups of 4 men, which equals 12. Peter is always the first one mentioned in the first group, Philip in the second and James in the third group. The first 4 are those closest to Jesus.

Besides, if all 4 accounts listed them in the same exact, perfect order, wouldn't Christians and the early church be accused of either a) plagiarism or b) collusion? Poof. There goes another theory out the window.

I tried putting this in a boxed format to make you see it easier, but was unable. Maybe Prax can do it (he can do anything...not TIC).

Praxeas
04-24-2009, 06:50 PM
I did not "assert" I listed discrepencies.
Apparently you don't know what an assertion is. You just asserted something....what did you assert? You asserted these were discrepencies.

You also asserted there were books in the bible that the Nicean council removed, but you can't prove it

Praxeas
04-24-2009, 06:54 PM
You deny or still "assert" (laughing) that a group of old men did NOT decide (long after Jesus was taken back to Heaven) what was and was not to be part of the Bible?

You asserted that the Nicene council REMOVED books from the bible.

Next you are asserting it was a bunch of old men, the fact that you have to add "Laughing" into your diatribe shows me you really don't have any substance to your arguments. You have to rely on style over substance.

They weren't removed like you asserted but yes it was decided whether or not they should be included. I never denied that. Please...is English your second language?

Many of those works are proven to be spurious or contain interpolations. Others were not written by the men whose name they bear. So why should they be included? Are you an expert?

Praxeas
04-24-2009, 06:55 PM
The Quran was edited and changed over time. And even still, it contains contradictions.

oletime
04-24-2009, 07:11 PM
nothing changes with this arrogant person prax . reminds me of hillary when someone asked her recently to describe her leadership qualities and she said" SMART POWER" dont we understand? he is just smarter than the rest of us. he has" obama like characteristics" . he still hasnt answered the one about every muslim being told to kill an infidel [unbeliever] in their lifetime. i wonder if he has followed that part of the koran remember he who denies even one of the verses is punished by death.

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 08:56 PM
OIC. Is this like that Chronicles God/Satan thing again?
I think I was referring more to Allah than you.

Pressing-On
04-24-2009, 10:15 PM
OIC. Is this like that Chronicles God/Satan thing again?

My focus is more on the origins of the Muslim faith, more so than the written contradictions to begin.

For instance, Professor A. Guilluame, who is an expert of the Islamic religion, has said that the worship of a moon god was very rampant in Arabia at the time of Mohammed. According to his writings, the moon god had several names - one of them was "Allah".

Another Middle East Scholar, E.M. Wherry, in his work, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quaran, also shows the worship of the moon, star and the sun involved the worship of Allah and Ba-al (Huba'l).

"Huba'l" is a Hebrew word meaning "the lord" and was a Moabite god that was imported into many nations, including Israel. Ibn Ishaq, an earlier biographer of Mohammed and his work said that praying to "Allah" was the same thing as praying to Hubal, as Ha-Baal or Hu-Baal means "the lord - "al-iah or "al'lah" means "the god.

Mohammed's father bore the name "Abdallah" and is very similiar to other tribal people bearing the name of the specific idols they worshiped. Abdallah is not proof that "Allah" is the Mighty God of the Bible. It only proves that "Allah" was already known as a supernatural being they worshiped before Islam started.

Many Muslims don't want to accept the fact that Allah was already being worshiped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by the Arabian pagans before Mohammed came along. Other deities worshiped in Mecca were "Al-lat" or "Allat" which is a feminine form of the Arabic word for "Allah". "Al-lat", "al-Uzza and "al-Manat" were three female idols being worshiped inside the Ka'ba. They were regarded as the daughters of Allah.

One Historian, Vaqqidi, has said that "Allah" was actually the chief god of about 360 gods that were being worshiped in Arabia at the time that Mohammed rose in prominence.

Ibn Al-Kalbi, who was an Arabian historian noted that there were 27 pre-Islamic deities and that the Quran lists nine of these idols.

Mohammad's wife, Khadijah, sacrificed and worshiped Wadd, Suwa, Yaguth, Ya'uq, Nasr and Hubal because her sons were dying young. (Surah 71:23; Haykal, Mohammed. The Life of Muhammad, P.69).

In Exodus 3:6, God tells Moses, "I am the God of thy father". Mohammed says that Allah revealed himself in the same way, but the question remains - Who is this god that Mohammed's father worshiped? We know who Moses' father worshiped. Moses' father doesn't have the idol worshiping background that Mohammad's father had.

When God appeared to Abram, he asked him to leave his idolatrous town of Ur. God was very careful NOT to say that He was the God of Abram's father. That is because Abram's father was an idolater.

Another thing I would like to point out is something that Ahmed Deedat, a South African Muslim Jihadist, wrote in a pamphlet he entitled, "What is His Name". He took some footnotes from an earlier Schofield Commentary Bible which had included the words, "elohim", "elah" and "alah" and tried to conclude that this proved that Allah was the name of the God Almighty.

One thing that makes his argument fall apart is that the footnotes were not in the Bible, but in the Commentary and the word "alah" is a common Hebrew word meaning "to swear". It is a verb and not a noun. The editors never suggested that those three words, "elohim", "elah" nor "alah" mean "Allah."

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 10:45 PM
Dude, Surah 71 is the story of Noah (laughing). I do not care WHAT the internet says Mohammed's wife did or did not do but Surah 71 probably is not the right context. (now, sign of weakness or not, I am really laughing). Based on the Quran, certainly at a minimum worshipping those mentioned gods the net result Only because of their sins they were drowned would certainly be one that both you and I would agree on as appropriate. (sorry, still laughing)

Your reference:

(71:23) they said, 'Do not at all abandon your gods, and do not abandon Wadd nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth and Ya `uq and Nasr

The context (laughing):

(71:1) We sent Noah to his people (as a Messenger, with the instruction): "Warn your people before there comes upon them a painful torment
(71:2) He said, "O my people, I am a plain warner to you.
(71:3) (I warn you) that you should worship Allah, and fear Him and obey me *
(71:4) Allah will forgive you your sins,
(71:5) Noah submitted, "O my Lord, I called my people night and day,
(71:6) but my calling has only increased their aversion
(71:7) And whenever I called them that You might pardon them,
(71:8) Then I invited them openly
(71:9) and preached to them in public as well as in private.
(71:10) I said, `Seek forgiveness from your Lord: indeed He is All-Forgiving.
(71:11) He will send abundant rains for you from heaven,
(71:12) will help you with wealth and children, will create gardens for you, and provide flowing rivers for you
(71:13) What is the matter with you that you do not expect for Allah any dignity
(71:14) although He has created you in successive stages?
(71:15) Do you not see how Allah has created seven heavens, one above the other
(71:16) and made the moon a light in them and the sun a lamp?

(71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth in a strange way
(71:18) then He will restore you to the same earth, and will raise you up from it suddenly.
(71:19) And Allah has spread out the earth as a carpet for you
(71:20) that you may walk in its open paths' . "
(71:21) Noah said, "O my Lord, they have disobeyed me and followed those (chiefs) whose wealth and children have increased them only in loss
(71:22) They have devised a mighty plot;
(71:23) they said, 'Do not at all abandon your gods, and do not abandon Wadd nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth and Ya `uq and Nasr
(71:24) They have led many people astray, and so (O Lord), increase not the wrongdoers in anything but deviation'
(71:25) Only because of their sins they were drowned and were cast into Fire. Then they found no helper to save them from Allah.


My focus is more on the origins of the Muslim faith, more so than the written contradictions to begin.

For instance, Professor A. Guilluame, who is an expert of the Islamic religion, has said that the worship of a moon god was very rampant in Arabia at the time of Mohammed. According to his writings, the moon god had several names - one of them was "Allah".

Another Middle East Scholar, E.M. Wherry, in his work, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quaran, also shows the worship of the moon, star and the sun involved the worship of Allah and Ba-al (Huba'l).

"Huba'l" is a Hebrew word meaning "the lord" and was a Moabite god that was imported into many nations, including Israel. Ibn Ishaq, an earlier biographer of Mohammed and his work said that praying to "Allah" was the same thing as praying to Hubal, as Ha-Baal or Hu-Baal means "the lord - "al-iah or "al'lah" means "the god.

Mohammed's father bore the name "Abdallah" and is very similiar to other tribal people bearing the name of the specific idols they worshiped. Abdallah is not proof that "Allah" is the Mighty God of the Bible. It only proves that "Allah" was already known as a supernatural being they worshiped before Islam started.

Many Muslims don't want to accept the fact that Allah was already being worshiped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by the Arabian pagans before Mohammed came along. Other deities worshiped in Mecca were "Al-lat" or "Allat" which is a feminine form of the Arabic word for "Allah". "Al-lat", "al-Uzza and "al-Manat" were three female idols being worshiped inside the Ka'ba. They were regarded as the daughters of Allah.

One Historian, Vaqqidi, has said that "Allah" was actually the chief god of about 360 gods that were being worshiped in Arabia at the time that Mohammed rose in prominence.

Ibn Al-Kalbi, who was an Arabian historian noted that there were 27 pre-Islamic deities and that the Quran lists nine of these idols.

Mohammad's wife, Khadijah, sacrificed and worshiped Wadd, Suwa, Yaguth, Ya'uq, Nasr and Hubal because her sons were dying young. (Surah 71:23; Haykal, Mohammed. The Life of Muhammad, P.69).

In Exodus 3:6, God tells Moses, "I am the God of thy father". Mohammed says that Allah revealed himself in the same way, but the question remains - Who is this god that Mohammed's father worshiped? We know who Moses' father worshiped. Moses' father doesn't have the idol worshiping background that Mohammad's father had.

When God appeared to Abram, he asked him to leave his idolatrous town of Ur. God was very careful NOT to say that He was the God of Abram's father. That is because Abram's father was an idolater.

Another thing I would like to point out is something that Ahmed Deedat, a South African Muslim Jihadist, wrote in a pamphlet he entitled, "What is His Name". He took some footnotes from an earlier Schofield Commentary Bible which had included the words, "elohim", "elah" and "alah" and tried to conclude that this proved that Allah was the name of the God Almighty.

One thing that makes his argument fall apart is that the footnotes were not in the Bible, but in the Commentary and the word "alah" is a common Hebrew word meaning "to swear". It is a verb and not a noun. The editors never suggested that those three words, "elohim", "elah" nor "alah" mean "Allah."

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 10:49 PM
I give up. You people are free to deceive each other if you feel that is what you need to make you look right. (still laughing at the out-of-context passage from the story of Noah).

Pressing-On
04-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Dude, Surah 71 is the story of Noah (laughing). I do not care WHAT the internet says Mohammed's wife did or did not do but Surah 71 probably is not the right context. (now, sign of weakness or not, I am really laughing)

Your reference:

(71:23) they said, 'Do not at all abandon your gods, and do not abandon Wadd nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth and Ya `uq and Nasr

The context (laughing):

(71:1) We sent Noah to his people (as a Messenger, with the instruction): "Warn your people before there comes upon them a painful torment
(71:2) He said, "O my people, I am a plain warner to you.
(71:3) (I warn you) that you should worship Allah, and fear Him and obey me *
(71:4) Allah will forgive you your sins,
(71:5) Noah submitted, "O my Lord, I called my people night and day,
(71:6) but my calling has only increased their aversion
(71:7) And whenever I called them that You might pardon them,
(71:8) Then I invited them openly
(71:9) and preached to them in public as well as in private.
(71:10) I said, `Seek forgiveness from your Lord: indeed He is All-Forgiving.
(71:11) He will send abundant rains for you from heaven,
(71:12) will help you with wealth and children, will create gardens for you, and provide flowing rivers for you
(71:13) What is the matter with you that you do not expect for Allah any dignity
(71:14) although He has created you in successive stages?
(71:15) Do you not see how Allah has created seven heavens, one above the other
(71:16) and made the moon a light in them and the sun a lamp?

(71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth in a strange way
(71:18) then He will restore you to the same earth, and will raise you up from it suddenly.
(71:19) And Allah has spread out the earth as a carpet for you
(71:20) that you may walk in its open paths' . "
(71:21) Noah said, "O my Lord, they have disobeyed me and followed those (chiefs) whose wealth and children have increased them only in loss
(71:22) They have devised a mighty plot;
(71:23) they said, 'Do not at all abandon your gods, and do not abandon Wadd nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth and Ya `uq and Nasr
(71:24) They have led many people astray, and so (O Lord), increase not the wrongdoers in anything but deviation'
(71:25) Only because of their sins they were drowned and were cast into Fire. Then they found no helper to save them from Allah.
I didn't get any of this information off of the Internet, WWII and I wasn't quoting 71:23. I was telling you what historians are saying about Mohammed's past and pre-Islamic worship which was still going on during the time of Mohammed's prominence.

Another fact about Mohammed - When Khadija died, he married other wives who would have influenced his spiritual understanding. One of his early wives was a Jewess named Raihana. His ninth wife, Safiyya, was also a Jewess whom he captured after killing her husband in a battle again the Khaibar Jews.

The governor of Egypt, Moqawqu, presented him with two Ethiopian Christian women slaves, Maryam and her sister Sirin. The oldest sister, he took as his wife. So, he had two Jewish wives and two Christian wives. The Jews would have explained the Old Covenant to him and the Christian wives the New Covenant. These were all opportunities for him to know about the truth and the Bible.

We don't kill people for not following the New Covenant, yet in your Quran, in Suran 9:19, it says there are three things that attract more rewards that all others - They are: belief in Allah, belief in the Last Day and Jihad.

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 11:08 PM
I dunno. I do not see the word "jihad" in the original, arabic words. Maybe (for the purpose of deceiving someone? inciting something?) you "added" the word "jihad". Eh?

9:19 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah: and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
AjaAAaltum siqayata alhajjiwaAAimarata almasjidi alharami kaman amanabiAllahi waalyawmi al-akhiri wajahadafee sabeeli Allahi la yastawoona AAinda AllahiwaAllahu la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

Pressing-On
04-24-2009, 11:17 PM
I dunno. I do not see the word "jihad" in the original, arabic words. Maybe (for the purpose of deceiving someone? inciting something?) you "added" the word "jihad". Eh?

9:19 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah: and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
AjaAAaltum siqayata alhajjiwaAAimarata almasjidi alharami kaman amanabiAllahi waalyawmi al-akhiri wajahadafee sabeeli Allahi la yastawoona AAinda AllahiwaAllahu la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

What is the difference in "jihad" and "strive with might and main in the cause of Allah"?

What is "maintenance of the Scared Mosque"? The God of our Bible calls us, our bodies, the "Temple" where He dwells and not a building.

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 11:20 PM
JESUS did not say "your bodies are a temple". He cleaned out the temple with dispatch as I recall. PAUL said "your bodies are a temple". To me, where every teaching and action of Jesus is an example, and of Paul is not, there is a marked difference.

Walks_in_islam
04-24-2009, 11:24 PM
A Psalm of David. Strive thou, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight thou against them that fight against me

Christian jihad? Need I quote some others (from the bible) or can we somehow agree that (1) violence under the name of religion is wrong and (2) "striving in the cause of Allah" or "Lord" can be interpreted different ways to different people, and thus can be wrongly and incorrectly used as justification for evil and violence?

Pressing-On
04-24-2009, 11:42 PM
JESUS did not say "your bodies are a temple". He cleaned out the temple with dispatch as I recall. PAUL said "your bodies are a temple". To me, where every teaching and action of Jesus is an example, and of Paul is not, there is a marked difference.
You didn't answer my first question:

What is the difference in "jihad" and "strive with might and main in the cause of Allah"?

I'll help you with the answer:

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. S. 9:29


There is no marked difference in any writer, disciple or apostle and in who Jesus was, talked about or portrayed.

They built upon His teachings by the power of His Spirit dwelling within them. We carry on in the same manner, knowing that we must subject our carnal flesh to the Spirit in order to produce the fruit of the Spirit and to add to our faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

The Bible was written by more than forty different writers of all walks of life - kings, princes, priests, prophets, politicians, scholars, soldiers, fishermen, cattlemen (referring to Amos), tax collectors, etc.

Most of these people lived years and even centuries apart never knowing nor meeting each other - YET - the thematic harmony of the WHOLE book runs from Genesis to Revelation. The same message written even with various styles. One book finds its complement in the other until there is a consummation of all things in the Book of Revelation.

Pressing-On
04-24-2009, 11:45 PM
A Psalm of David. Strive thou, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight thou against them that fight against me

Christian jihad? Need I quote some others (from the bible) or can we somehow agree that (1) violence under the name of religion is wrong and (2) "striving in the cause of Allah" or "Lord" can be interpreted different ways to different people, and thus can be wrongly and incorrectly used as justification for evil and violence?
You are quoting from the Old Testament under the Old Covenant - again - to try and make your point.

Today we live under the New Covenant - New Testament. This has been pointed out to you on this thread and you still continue in this same vein. Therefore, I cannot address it and you cannot win your point this way as you are in error.

We do not reach back to the Old Testament for anything other than the directives which support the moral law God has set forth in both the Old and the New Testament.

Walks_in_islam
04-25-2009, 12:53 AM
What "New Covenant"? The one mentioned in the Old Testament? (Jeremiah?) Did JESUS make reference to a "New Covenant?"..no, He said "I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill (restore) it". See, for your "New Covenant" to logically work you have to toss the words, actions, and teachings of Jesus and trade them for Paul and the followers of Paul.

Paul: aka "the gospel which was preached by me is not man's gospel. For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ" is the source of your "New Covenant".

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. S. 9:29 means whatever you want it to mean. It is taught to mean the people of the book who (also) do not follow the book aka those who claim to be people of the book but do not follow the laws of God.
Sura 29:46 "Dispute ye not with the people of the book, except in the best way, unless it be with those of them who do wrong but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God is your God is One; and it is to Him we submit."

"And remember Allah took a Covenant from the people of the book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!" in Sura 3:187.

Walks_in_islam
04-25-2009, 01:18 AM
My answers, as a fellow redneck are:

I don't see an aversion to toilet paper in Arab or non-arab muslim countries. Toilet paper is, you know, like, right there. (unlike our national parks bathrooms as I once discovered up in Alaska to my discomfort) So I am understandably puzzled at your remark.
I have never seen garden hoses in bathrooms in Arab or non-arab muslim countries. They do have water sprayers to wash with and all the hotels have this button that sprays water to wash with. I accidently pressed it by mistake. I was standing in front of it. My wife was highly amused.

I live here. I have not investigated the bathroom implements of my fellows. I can speak with authority on the implements of the public bathrooms and my own. My bathroom does not have a hose. Shame. Cuz we have a new baby due in 3-4 weeks and what a cool and convenient addition - especially when she gets to be toddler and it can be fun to just rinse her down (joking). In fact, we're all stocked up. And....with baby wipes. Also readily available. Brand unknown. The labels for the cheaper ones are in arabic. they are made here. I guess what I am saying, is........you're gonna have to ask them in person dude.
I don't know what goes on at hormel. My dad had a saying about never ask how law or sausage is made. My dad was pretty clever and probably in some way plagerized this but I agree that is some good stuff to keep in mind. He is most assuredly not Muslim. With that said, I will pass his advice to you to do with what you will.

So I guess I'm just a silly redneck with pretty basic answers. I don't know. Furthermore, as I told you before, you're going to have to find out the answers on you own.

UPDATE!!!! EXTRA EXTRA!!!!! According to my better half, the LADIES ROOMS HAVE TOILET PAPER TOO!!!!


I was not speaking about public bathrooms. I merely wished to ask why they have such an aversion to toilet paper, and consider it disgusting. I do not understand the desire to essentially stick a garden hose up there and pretty much do a colonoscopy. Is there an aversion to showers? I know back here, we find Muslims trying to take baths in the sinks, 4 feet above the floor, attempting to wash their feet, while a number of people outside the door of the restroom are pretty close to defecating outside the bathroom (in their clothes) while Muhammed washes his feet. Hasn't he ever heard of "Baby Wipes?"
It's like the Muslims over here who apply and get jobs at the Hormel meat packing plant, which has pork products, and then cry about having to handle pork, and ask for special changes in handling the pork. Then why did you get a job at a pork processing plant? It's not the only job in the city.
But alas, I guess I'm just a silly little redneck for asking such common sense questions.
Aliases? A nickname is not an alias. I'm sure you have nicknames for your children or wife (if you're married). Even Jesus addressed God as "Father," but also "Abba," which essentially means "Daddy."
Which leads me to ask, does Allah only have one name? I'm not talking about the 99 other names that are essentially nothing more than a bunch of "Hail Mary's" that a good Muslim must recite.
If he does, what's the big deal about Peter having 2 other names?

Walks_in_islam
04-25-2009, 01:21 AM
OH. Bible college again. I yield to your great and vast level of wisdom. Please review my corrections, apology, and retraction of the word "Bible" in context of the council.
There is no "original Bible." I'll say it again. The Bible is a collection of 66 books, 39 of which are in the Old Testament (there's a little "college trick" to remembering this The word OLD has 3 letters, the word TESTAMENT has 9 letters=3 (first number) AND 9 (second number) is 39). You can't do this with the words NEW TESTAMENT. It's the same number. But if you know that the Bible has 66 books, you can figure it out yourself. 66-39=27 (books in the New Testament).
The Bible was fought over and discussed for centuries. It was not thrown together haphazardly like the Book of Mormon or the Quran. If the Quran had undergone as much scrutiny as the Bible before being "published," it probably wouldn't have been "released" until after 1,000 A.D.
Note to WiI: If the Bible was released as the Quran was (written by one author), we would only have one book (and not 66) from which to validate our beliefs. take out 65 of them, and that's how The Bible compares to the Quran as far as testimonies, prophecies, history, Psalms. Proverbs and more. In other words, your prophet does a lousy job of writing about his god. Much of it is borrowed from what he heard from Christian missionaries. Funny how the angel Gabriel (from the Gospel accounts) winds up revealing The Quran to Muhammed. He was a plagariarist. Or do all the angels of heaven have the name Gabriel like the Muslims of today have the name Muhammed for their children? If your version of heaven is real, is everyone in it named Muhammed and Gabriel? Couldn't Muhammed been a little more original, perhaps like the Mormon angel: Moroni, who revealed The Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith in 1820, and chose a different name?
With that said, the Bible is a series of books, written over a period of 2,000 years, all validating the same thing. That God (the God of Israel) spoke to various prophets, kings and common men revealing certain things about Himself and His plan for mankind. It was not written by just one man (even Moses had an "editor"). If the Jewish scribes made any errors in making copies, it was immediately burned. There are probably dozens of sites to point this out.
I dismiss many of your questions, such as the difference in the apostles 12 names because they appear to be "red herrings" or silly little "rabbit trails" that go no where, and do not appear to be your greatest concern. There are far bigger questions that you could play "stump the Christian" with, such as where did Cain and Abel get their wives?
Hey, at least Jesus had 12 apostles to validate his ministry. Muhammed had none. Plus, since Jesus had 12 apostles, we can choose from more than one name for our sons (since Mathais replaced Judas, we can use that one). 13 if you count Jesus, or as the Spanish pronounce it: "hey suess." Like the guy who wrote "Green Eggs and Ham." Ooooooops. I said ham on an Islamic chat line. So we don't just have Muhammed from which to choose as a name for our sons.

Walks_in_islam
04-25-2009, 01:47 AM
OUCH! Friendly fire incident. Call the papers. Somehow I missed this Captain Tom:

I'm guess I'm realizing why you can't accept Christianity at all. You live in a world of no gratitude whatsoever. You said you lived in the United States. Really? You don't act like it.

I'm American. I do not know who this post is directed to but it certainly misses me entirely.

You serve a God (Allah) who has no love, and is not a loving God. Just a tyrant.

Your opinion. As a fellow American you are certainly entitled to it.

What has the U.S. given the Arab countries? We found oil in your countries (Exxon, Mobil and others) and then, instead of keeping it (as we should have), we allowed your leaders to take it over and use its profits to build up your countries(and many of these countries have gasoline at 99 cents a gallon).

NEWSFLASH: WE, that being me, are still finding it. It's theirs by the way. Thanks for the kudos to me and others like me who send real oil and real money back home while you guys waste it! It's (35) cents a gallon for gas - not 99 cents (quick calc - 1 SAR per liter, 3.75 SAR per dollar....) yeah, 90 cents isn't even close.

We overthrew your dictators (not just Hussein), but you want others who are worse.

Missed. See above. Haven't voted for a dictator yet.

When the Shah of Iran was taken out of office by Jimmy Carter, you chose a far more evil leader: Khomeni. Still, we fed your people when your own leaders were unwilling to, and kept much of it for themselves.

We did didn't we? These iranian people sound pretty ungrateful now that you put it like that. Maybe we should have sold Saddam more guns and bullets and taught those iranians a better lesson. Wait. HIS ungrateful tail used them against us!

Still we sent more. And more. We flew your people with cleft palates into our countries at no charge, or came there and did it at no cost to you. We sent thousands of vaccines for you at no cost. We flew people with crippling diseases to the U.S. and fixed them up, and sent them home. We built many of your cities. After the tsunami several years ago, we sent hundreds of ships and planes when acts of God (perhaps your God?) killed and injured your own people in Indonesia.

Hm........I was in the US at the time. The Saudis actually sent more aid than we did. I do not want to confuse your point with facts though. I will just let you continue.


When earthquakes devastate your cities, we're the first ones to show up. Not even your own Muslim brothers and sisters raise money for their own citizens (unless it's to kill Israelis, then the fundraising money pours in by the boatload). We send Christian missionaries to care for the sick and the lame that you reject. And what do we get in return? Usually a knife to the throat. Unlike Muslims, we don't ask what your religion is, and then kill any non-believers who don't act the way you do.

Well, the Saudis rank (2nd) in total overall aid to developing countries. Behind the US only. With 1/10th the population. Advise to check then get back.

When we send aid to the Hamas (a terrorist organiztion), we expect them to live up to their word. But we know deep inside that they are liars, and it would be used for bullets and bombs rather than butter, eggs, meat, grains and milk. But we hope maybe their citizens will see that hypocrisy, and overthrow such bullies, who use lies to stay in power. Yet we're the ones who are viewed so wrong? Your brothers and sisters are so brainwashed as to think that Jews actually are fed drops of the blood of Muslims mixed with their baby milk. What nonsense you must use in order to believe that. How ungrateful you must be in order to accept this.

I have not heard this one.

Something of value? Try over a billion dollars that your own, oil rich despots won't give to anyone (except citibank?). Should you google "citibank bailout" then re-phrase? When food aid arrives in your Middle Eastern countries, much of it is stolen by your leaders.

Saudi exports food aid. There is none arriving to steal.

When Saddam Hussein was captured, remember all that money he had? He could have fed hundreds for over a year on that money alone. His own people. Yet he chose to keep it, and let your people starve, and live without running water. What about all of those who die by sand spiders? The next time one of your brothers or sisters in the faith has malaria, TB, syphillus or any other disease, guess who'll be there for you? It won't be a fellow Muslim.

4% of the GNP here in Saudi goes to aid to other countries. Compared to .35% of the US GNP. Probably you didnt look that up.
You want love?
It doesn't originate from Islam. It originates from the hospitals which were founded on Christian principles, and the very first ones were formed by Christian missionaries.

Uh, the first hospitals that were the foundation of modern hospitals, including surgeries, surgical instruments, all came from Muslim civilizations. Dont stop and take my word though. Go look it up.

Mistaken for one of us?

Yeah, I confess that i am nervous that I will be.

I worked with bombs in the military. They're so accurate we could pick out which window pane in your house to put them through. Yet because your military leaders are cowards, and hide in schools and hospitals behind innocent civilians, you cry when they die. You never force them out to fight like a man, and go somewhere where there are no innocent people. Like I said, Muslims can never say, even once, that they're ever, ever, ever wrong. To do so must be some crazy beilef that is related to your unforgiving attitude and belief system.

You worked in the military? Great shot on the wedding in afghanistan. Made me proud to be American. That Englund chick was a real peach too. One of the finest. Yeah, bombing weddings instead of getting on the ground and finding the bad guys and taking them out is very brave. YOU said my military leaders were cowards. I didn't.

In World War One, when General Pershing found one of your Muslim brothers fighting in the war, he interrogated them by tying them up in a chair, and sticking a bucket of pig's blood above their head. If they refused to talk, he pulled a rope, and the pig's blood dumped on the Muslim fighter. He then shot them in the head. While others may not know what this means, you do. Anyone who dies as a result of this after being "showered" with the blood of (an "unclean") pig goes straight to Hell in your belief system. Oh, if only we did that today, or dipped our bullets in pigs blood fighting against Islamo-Nazis. Instead, we try and fight more "civilized" and "honorable" ways with people that have no honor, and know no such things. Instead, you come to our country and don't even bother lifting up the toilet seat when you pee. Like a little boy, you don't. Evidently, it's "unclean," and you let the janitors wipe it up.

Better wipe your seat there dude. You have made a mess of this one, and like your bomb-making buddies, dropped this one on the wrong party. I am personally careful about the toilet seat. See earlier post about preggie wifey.

Walks_in_islam
04-25-2009, 08:49 AM
Good. Because the contradictions seem to be loudly missing from this discussion anyway.

The moon god was mentioned in the story of Noah. The outcome of worshipping that moon god was also mentioned. Tell your professor that.

Let's discuss orgins. I earlier retracted my assertion that "books were removed from the bible". It is replaced with "all books that were the basis of religious teachings at the time were gathered, and the council decided for you which books would constitute the basis for christianity, and put them in an order that (resembles) the bible" along with a play by play analysis of this and the post was removed. The post outlining this was funny. Removing it denied much entertainment alas.

My focus is more on the origins of the Muslim faith, more so than the written contradictions to begin.

For instance, Professor A. Guilluame, who is an expert of the Islamic religion, has said that the worship of a moon god was very rampant in Arabia at the time of Mohammed. According to his writings, the moon god had several names - one of them was "Allah".

Another Middle East Scholar, E.M. Wherry, in his work, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quaran, also shows the worship of the moon, star and the sun involved the worship of Allah and Ba-al (Huba'l).

"Huba'l" is a Hebrew word meaning "the lord" and was a Moabite god that was imported into many nations, including Israel. Ibn Ishaq, an earlier biographer of Mohammed and his work said that praying to "Allah" was the same thing as praying to Hubal, as Ha-Baal or Hu-Baal means "the lord - "al-iah or "al'lah" means "the god.

Mohammed's father bore the name "Abdallah" and is very similiar to other tribal people bearing the name of the specific idols they worshiped. Abdallah is not proof that "Allah" is the Mighty God of the Bible. It only proves that "Allah" was already known as a supernatural being they worshiped before Islam started.

Many Muslims don't want to accept the fact that Allah was already being worshiped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by the Arabian pagans before Mohammed came along. Other deities worshiped in Mecca were "Al-lat" or "Allat" which is a feminine form of the Arabic word for "Allah". "Al-lat", "al-Uzza and "al-Manat" were three female idols being worshiped inside the Ka'ba. They were regarded as the daughters of Allah.

One Historian, Vaqqidi, has said that "Allah" was actually the chief god of about 360 gods that were being worshiped in Arabia at the time that Mohammed rose in prominence.

Ibn Al-Kalbi, who was an Arabian historian noted that there were 27 pre-Islamic deities and that the Quran lists nine of these idols.

Mohammad's wife, Khadijah, sacrificed and worshiped Wadd, Suwa, Yaguth, Ya'uq, Nasr and Hubal because her sons were dying young. (Surah 71:23; Haykal, Mohammed. The Life of Muhammad, P.69).

In Exodus 3:6, God tells Moses, "I am the God of thy father". Mohammed says that Allah revealed himself in the same way, but the question remains - Who is this god that Mohammed's father worshiped? We know who Moses' father worshiped. Moses' father doesn't have the idol worshiping background that Mohammad's father had.

When God appeared to Abram, he asked him to leave his idolatrous town of Ur. God was very careful NOT to say that He was the God of Abram's father. That is because Abram's father was an idolater.

Another thing I would like to point out is something that Ahmed Deedat, a South African Muslim Jihadist, wrote in a pamphlet he entitled, "What is His Name". He took some footnotes from an earlier Schofield Commentary Bible which had included the words, "elohim", "elah" and "alah" and tried to conclude that this proved that Allah was the name of the God Almighty.

One thing that makes his argument fall apart is that the footnotes were not in the Bible, but in the Commentary and the word "alah" is a common Hebrew word meaning "to swear". It is a verb and not a noun. The editors never suggested that those three words, "elohim", "elah" nor "alah" mean "Allah."

oletime
04-25-2009, 11:35 AM
face it folks most of us been had. some more so than others . i said in one reply that wii was drama queen . he said it was dry humor. i said let me guess since he is from houston he probably is in the oil bidness as they say. he dropped a hint eventually, as someone said would happen,either deliberately or by mistake, that he works over their in saudi doing oil exploration . GET IT WALKS IN ISLAM ? WORKS IN SAUDI ? my guess is he is extremely bored and he dont dare go out too much, or he might lose his head cause he looks too much like the great satan in their words, the only question is does he really believe this garbage he is spouting? or is he just trying to impress his saudi wife or kill time ? maybe he is TERRY G. WITH A NEW COMPUTER and ip address lol. ? wanna bet he dont get paid in saudi money but good ole green backs ? and if he does believe this trash ? keep biting the hand that feeds ya as they say . well at least as they say know what ya believe and why and i would say we do! give him credit he must have been great in debate class in school and he is well studied or his wife is he he !

Walks_in_islam
04-25-2009, 12:30 PM
Think what you will. When you do post to me it would be good to keep in the back of you mind, as I said LONG ago to that prax guy (you know, the one who can remove posts if he wants to haha) - that I was one of you so I know you. You have not even scratched the surface of well-studied.

At least you will then address your blah to ME and not your "image of raggely villager" or some such that you imagine on the other side of your screen. Talk of "my dictators" or "my this" or "my that" amuses me.

PS: By the way, I don't make mistakes like that. If some moron got trapped by his bigoted impressions that is his problem. Please note that to file.

Leave muslims alone. Those who do live and work around (I was one there) you share your values, love your country as much as you do, and do their best to fight the same evils that (most of you) stand up against every day. Let religious persecution grow among you and you have taken down just one more brick that built the walls that so many died to build and protect. You may be next. It's already started in fact.



face it folks most of us been had. some more so than others . i said in one reply that wii was drama queen . he said it was dry humor. i said let me guess since he is from houston he probably is in the oil bidness as they say. he dropped a hint eventually, as someone said would happen,either deliberately or by mistake, that he works over their in saudi doing oil exploration . GET IT WALKS IN ISLAM ? WORKS IN SAUDI ? my guess is he is extremely bored and he dont dare go out too much, or he might lose his head cause he looks too much like the great satan in their words, the only question is does he really believe this garbage he is spouting? or is he just trying to impress his saudi wife or kill time ? maybe he is TERRY G. WITH A NEW COMPUTER and ip address lol. ? wanna bet he dont get paid in saudi money but good ole green backs ? and if he does believe this trash ? keep biting the hand that feeds ya as they say . well at least as they say know what ya believe and why and i would say we do! give him credit he must have been great in debate class in school and he is well studied or his wife is he he !

Praxeas
04-25-2009, 01:40 PM
Pre-Islamic religion in Arabia was centered around goddess worship. The Kaaba was actually a part of that worship and if you notice the case the meteorite rock is held in looks like a female body part. They would worship it in pre-islamic culture. Today they face it in worship and make pilgrimages to it and circle around it and eventually getting up to it they caress and kiss it. Seriously. They think it dates back to Abraham. It formed a huge part of heathen worship. I find it ironic that a religion that condemns idolatry has such a practice

In those ancient cultures they worshiped gods and often when they were gods of fertility they had sexual symbols like the phalic symbol that we have in Washington DC, the Vatican and in Egypt...that came from ancient false god worship.

http://www.salagram.net/kaba-stone.html
http://www.islam-watch.org/MAsghar/Muslims-are-Fuel-fot-fire-of-Hell.htm

Praxeas
04-25-2009, 01:42 PM
I give up. You people are free to deceive each other if you feel that is what you need to make you look right. (still laughing at the out-of-context passage from the story of Noah).
Oh good, that means you won't be here trying to deceive us with your false religion? (laughing). Im glad I live here and not where you are, I'd loose my head over this conversation

Praxeas
04-25-2009, 01:44 PM
Think what you will. When you do post to me it would be good to keep in the back of you mind, as I said LONG ago to that prax guy (you know, the one who can remove posts if he wants to haha) - that I was one of you so I know you. You have not even scratched the surface of well-studied.

At least you will then address your blah to ME and not your "image of raggely villager" or some such that you imagine on the other side of your screen. Talk of "my dictators" or "my this" or "my that" amuses me.

PS: By the way, I don't make mistakes like that. If some moron got trapped by his bigoted impressions that is his problem. Please note that to file.

Leave muslims alone. Those who do live and work around (I was one there) you share your values, love your country as much as you do, and do their best to fight the same evils that (most of you) stand up against every day. Let religious persecution grow among you and you have taken down just one more brick that built the walls that so many died to build and protect. You may be next. It's already started in fact.
I didn't remove anyone's post. Leave muslims alone? This is not a Muslim board. We did not go out looking for Muslims to attack...you came here of your own will. The only religious persecution going on is by Muslims against minority Christians. And here in the states Muslims have more protections and freedom than any Christian has in Saudi Arabia or any other Islamic state

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 01:51 PM
OIC. Is this like that Chronicles God/Satan thing again?OK. On this one, you don't give me a list of the "20+ contradictions" playing "stump the Christian." So I can answer it, you silly redneck.
Read the Book of Job and you'll figure it out. In the Book of Job (which is according to many Biblical scholars, written before the Pentateuch/5 Books of Moses) Satan is speaking with God. After much debate between the two, God allows Satan to tempt Job, and do just about everything else, but not to kill him. I suspect if I looked deep enough in the Quran/Koran, I'd find something which Muhammed plagarized about this story, and maybe got a few facts wrong in the process.
Therefore, what you see as a "contradiction" in Chronicles and Samuel is really not a contradiction at all. God allowed Satan to provoke David to number the people. Thus, both Satan and God provoked David to take a census. It's really that simple. As to the entire list, I suggest you get a copy of Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. It's 434 pages long (without the footnotes), so transcribing it over this site would be exhausting.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 02:03 PM
My answers, as a fellow redneck are:

I don't see an aversion to toilet paper in Arab or non-arab muslim countries. Toilet paper is, you know, like, right there. (unlike our national parks bathrooms as I once discovered up in Alaska to my discomfort) So I am understandably puzzled at your remark.
I have never seen garden hoses in bathrooms in Arab or non-arab muslim countries. They do have water sprayers to wash with and all the hotels have this button that sprays water to wash with. I accidently pressed it by mistake. I was standing in front of it. My wife was highly amused.

I live here. I have not investigated the bathroom implements of my fellows. I can speak with authority on the implements of the public bathrooms and my own. My bathroom does not have a hose. Shame. Cuz we have a new baby due in 3-4 weeks and what a cool and convenient addition - especially when she gets to be toddler and it can be fun to just rinse her down (joking). In fact, we're all stocked up. And....with baby wipes. Also readily available. Brand unknown. The labels for the cheaper ones are in arabic. they are made here. I guess what I am saying, is........you're gonna have to ask them in person dude.
I don't know what goes on at hormel. My dad had a saying about never ask how law or sausage is made. My dad was pretty clever and probably in some way plagerized this but I agree that is some good stuff to keep in mind. He is most assuredly not Muslim. With that said, I will pass his advice to you to do with what you will.

So I guess I'm just a silly redneck with pretty basic answers. I don't know. Furthermore, as I told you before, you're going to have to find out the answers on you own.

UPDATE!!!! EXTRA EXTRA!!!!! According to my better half, the LADIES ROOMS HAVE TOILET PAPER TOO!!!!You know, with all of the "alleged" bathing that the Muslims over here are doing in washing their feet, and their backside, it just isn't working AT ALL. They have the worst body odor of anyone. How can a group of people so intent on bathing stink so horribly? I mean peee--ewe. Maybe they bathe but never wash their clothes. Good grief.
Since you're over there, and dressed up in a bed sheet...I mean Arab garb, I hope you have facial hair. When we were over their, one of our shipmates decided to buy an Arab outfit and walk around as if he too were a Muslim. One problem. He didn't have facial hair. One of the more senior people in our group explained that men who don't have facial hair are considered to be homosexuals. Every time he showed up, we'd all snicker and go "well, here comes Tinkerbell." He never understood why we were all smiling when he showed up. Just pranced around as if it were Halloween, dressed up in his outfit.

Praxeas
04-25-2009, 02:11 PM
We had a Egyptian man that when he first worked here reeked. It's not the bathing part, they don't use deodorant over there. I heard that the oder is considered masculine, but I don't now how true that is. He eventually started using deodorant.

I think it's a cultural thing, not related to Islam

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 02:13 PM
I don't know what goes on at hormel. My dad had a saying about never ask how law or sausage is made. My dad was pretty clever and probably in some way plagerized this but I agree that is some good stuff to keep in mind. He is most assuredly not Muslim. With that said, I will pass his advice to you to do with what you will.
[/B]Well, although they work at the Hormel place, they put on the equivalent of a HAZMAT suit, or an asbestos fire fighters suit in order to handle the pork.
I don't care how sausages are made.
You still haven't spoken about the contradictions in the Quran. Thus, we must assume from your silence that they're there, and you refuse to comment. Your faith is that weak?
And who cares if your Dad wasn't a Muslim?

Praxeas
04-25-2009, 02:13 PM
I wonder why he can't address the contradictions in the quran or the evidence it was edited

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 02:17 PM
JESUS did not say "your bodies are a temple". He cleaned out the temple with dispatch as I recall. PAUL said "your bodies are a temple". To me, where every teaching and action of Jesus is an example, and of Paul is not, there is a marked difference.
You're doing the same thing the Pharisees did in Jesus day. There was 1) The Jewish Temple and 2) our bodies are a temple. For Christians, they are a temple of the Holy Spirit. For unbelievers (such as yourself)...well. You can figure that out yourself.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 02:17 PM
I wonder why he can't address the contradictions in the quran or the evidence it was editedHe can't even post a website.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 02:21 PM
And....with baby wipes. Also readily available. Brand unknown. The labels for the cheaper ones are in arabic. they are made here. I guess what I am saying, is........you're gonna have to ask them in person dude.
OK. Now you've really got me wondering. You can read the Quran in Arabic (which every Muslim is supposed to be able to do otherwise Allah can't hear your prayers), but you can't read a "Baby Wipes" box that's written in Arabic? HUH? Explain that one?

Praxeas
04-25-2009, 02:26 PM
JESUS did not say "your bodies are a temple". He cleaned out the temple with dispatch as I recall. PAUL said "your bodies are a temple". To me, where every teaching and action of Jesus is an example, and of Paul is not, there is a marked difference.
So what if Jesus did not say that? Jesus said he prayed for all those that would believe on Him through the words of the Apostles.

What Paul said agrees with what Jesus said

Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Compare that with
Lev 26:9 For I will have respect to you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish My covenant with you.
Lev 26:10 And you shall eat of the old provision, and clear away the old because of the new.
Lev 26:11 And I will set My tabernacle among you. And My soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be My people.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

1Co 6:17 But he being joined to the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
1Co 6:20 for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Jesus also said of the Spirit

Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
Act 1:6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.
Act 1:8 But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Jesus commanded them to go to Jerusalem and to be witnesses for him. You deny Christ when you deny he gave such commands to his apostles. You do that when you reject what the Apostles preached

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 03:10 PM
OUCH! Friendly fire incident. Call the papers. Somehow I missed this Captain Tom:Boy. You messed this one up. I can't even post the point of yours that I wanted to respond to.
As far as the Afgan wedding thing, if it's the same one I heard about this week, you left out one key point. The information was provided by Islamic sources. And why are you crying, or even complaining about it. As I understand it, you (as a Muslim) don't care when the innocent die. You guys spend years perfecting death. You bomb villages everywhere. You kill thousands, and if we ever kept records, it'd probably equal or surpass Communist Russia or China.
Furthermore, it's probably a good thing (for your fellows sake) that I'm not President of the U.S., because I'd either have dropped a few cluster bombs soaked with pigs blood inside and then dumped it over the entire area about to be destroyed and then make a bomb run. Or I'd drop what they call "The Mother of All Bombs (MOAB), a 21,000 pound bomb that makes such a huge impact, it punctures ear drums to those nearby and can be heard over a mile away.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 03:12 PM
We had a Egyptian man that when he first worked here reeked. It's not the bathing part, they don't use deodorant over there. I heard that the oder is considered masculine, but I don't now how true that is. He eventually started using deodorant.

I think it's a cultural thing, not related to IslamOh, I don't think it's deodorant vs. no deodorant. You might be right. But that can't just be from the underarms.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 03:17 PM
OUCH! Friendly fire incident. Call the papers. Somehow I missed this Captain Tom:As to Saudi Arabia being benevolent? HA. Post a site for it and prove it. They're not charitible to non-Muslims (even though we saved their tushie when Saddam went wild in 1990).
Arab doctors? Ha. Would you trust them with sharp instruments? Not me.
From an earlier post: Imams work for free?

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Still waiting for a reply to the Quranic contradictions.

Let's just say I won't hold my breath.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 03:29 PM
I did not "assert" I listed discrepencies. For your reminder:

2. God threatens David with 7 years of famine in 2nd Samuel, 3 years of famine in I Chronicles.

It makes me wonder if you pulled these out of Gleason Archer's book that I cited earlier. Your answer to this can be found on page 189-190. However, I'll attempt to summarize and paraphrase as best I can.
Second samuel records the first approach of Gad to David (the alternate was 7 years). Chronicles gives the second and final approach of Nathan to the King (probably in response to David's prayer). David asked God to make the choice.
But again, this was discussed in college.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 03:37 PM
OUCH! Friendly fire incident. Call the papers. Somehow I missed this Captain Tom:As to "that Englund chick," I'm not sure if you mean the one who sung on "Britain's Got Talent," and misspelled England, or if you refer to Libbie Englund from the Abu Gharib prison. Personally, I think she (Libbie Englund, US Army) was railroaded, and should have been given The Medal of Honor, and promoted three levels. I can pretty much figure out how that "dog collar" thing came about. Since Muslims consider Americans to be dogs, some wise cracker probably made the comment about us being dogs. Her response: "you wanna talk about dogs, put this on." Nope, she should be running the place. This was the same place where Saddam had rape rooms, and sent people go through paper shredders (either head first or feet first) that were actually made for something other than processing paper. People went in screaming. Husbands were forced to watch their wives, or daughters being raped. You cry over a few naked Arabs in dog collars or dressed up like KKK men in garbage bags? Cry me a river. She's a hero in my book. We should have parades in her honor. It was just after 9/11, too. I'll bet there were 1,000 others who'd do the same. Arab torture doesn't even come close to being as humane as American torture. Bring back General Pershing's method. Incidentally, I got that wrong about it being in World War One. It was in the Phillipnes. He did that to 49 Muslims (soaked them in a grave pig's blood), and released the 50th. For over 42 years, the Muslims didn't try again. We should learn from him (General Pershing. Incidentally, General Patton served under him in WWI. That probably explains why the Germans feared Patton more than others). I'd do it in a "New York minute." Go get the pigs ready. Maybe Hormel has some pig's blood available. As my cousin said, 9/11 was just a "dress rehearsal." You don't show cowardice or compassion to Arabs at all. You keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 03:55 PM
Good. Because the contradictions seem to be loudly missing from this discussion anyway.

The moon god was mentioned in the story of Noah. The outcome of worshipping that moon god was also mentioned. Tell your professor that.

Let's discuss orgins. I earlier retracted my assertion that "books were removed from the bible". It is replaced with "all books that were the basis of religious teachings at the time were gathered, and the council decided for you which books would constitute the basis for christianity, and put them in an order that (resembles) the bible" along with a play by play analysis of this and the post was removed. The post outlining this was funny. Removing it denied much entertainment alas.
I think you're confusing the two of us. As I said, many of the Ante-Nicene and Nicene Fathers had their personal preferences for what they thought should go in/be valid. For a long time, the Book of Esther was fought against going in. Why? Because there is not a single reference to God anywhere in the book. The Song of Solomon was also fought against for obvious reasons (the sexual nature in the tone of the book).
Your long list of books, most of which I believe are The Nag Hammadi books, cannot be cited by early church fathers. Unlike others, such as John, Revelation, Acts and others are cited within one generation of Jesus (the N.T. books) in some way or another.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 04:01 PM
I did not "assert" I listed discrepencies. For your reminder:

3. Ahaziah was 22 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings. He was 42 in 2nd Chronicles.
See Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, pages
204-205.

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 04:04 PM
I did not "assert" I listed discrepencies. For your reminder:

4. Jehoiachin was 18 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings, 8 when he began his rule in 2nd Chronicles
See Gleason Archer's book cited earlier, page 214-215.
Still awaiting a response to any Quranic contradictions...........

Thomas Trini
04-25-2009, 04:10 PM
I did not "assert" I listed discrepencies. For your reminder:

5. David's "chief of mighty men" killed 800 men at one time in 2nd Samuel and 300 men at one time in I Chronicles
See page 184 of same book. But you have the answer right there if you look hard enough. One speaks of "mighty men." In other words, the best of the best, the "Top Guns." The other number are the rest and the Top Guns combined.
Now I've got one for you. In the Book of Genesis (Chapter 1 if you need help there), it says God created light before he created the sun moon and stars. Explain, since you claim to be part of "the book?"

oletime
04-25-2009, 07:50 PM
he said he is done with us. maybe he meant it yaaaaaa. one can only hope! or maybe the internet police just found him.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 07:27 AM
he said he is done with us. maybe he meant it yaaaaaa. one can only hope! or maybe the internet police just found him.Or he's going through "Cogniotive Dissonance" as far as the Quran and all of its contradictions, and trying to grasp the thought of Muhammed being illiterate. How would he approach his Imam on that one? I can just see the Imam's eyes getting huge as the words roll out of his mouth (and perhaps his head rolls off of his neck).

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:17 AM
I was busy. Wow. So much love. Where to start?

ON the issue of donations. When I was a kid I worked for a bit in Waveland after Katrina. In some sort of pseudo-imaginary offical capacity lol. So, I knew where to go and here is your answer - well a billion or so:

In a Sept. 6 State Department briefing, spokesman Sean McCormack focused on Arab offers of assistance to the United States. He omitted any mention of Israeli participation, however.

Muslim countries proved once again that they care about the American people, even if they disagree with U.S. foreign policy. Qatar donated $100 million, along with a statement that read, “Please accept our solidarity as well as our heartfelt condolences for the tragic loss of so many precious lives.” Kuwait donated $500 million worth of oil products and other humanitarian aid. The United Arab Emirates ruler, Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahyan, contributed another $100 million in donations, including medicine, medical equipment, food, tents, clothing and other relief supplies. Donations poured in from Saudi Arabia, Oman, Turkey, Afghanistan, Egypt, and India. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Thailand—still recovering from their own tsunami disaster—also sent generous contributions. Tunisia sent two planeloads of blankets, tents and supplies as a gesture of “friendship between the people of Tunisia and America.” The government of Pakistan donated $1 million in cash, and relief goods worth half-a-million dollars, for hurricane victims. Islamabad also offered to send a team of doctors and paramedics to the region to support American relief agencies.

Moved by the plight of hurricane victims, African nations, including those in disaster-prone sub-Sahara, also contributed much-needed cash. Ironically, in July British Prime Minister Tony Blair had asked President George W. Bush to increase aid for Africa. Americans might be surprised to know that the United States lags behind other wealthy nations in the amount of aid it gives to the world’s poorest nations. Bush, however, refused to help until 2010—at which time, he promised, U.S. aid would double (and he will be out of office).

African states showed much more compassion. In Uganda, which contributed $200,000, government official Omara Atubo said, “International solidarity in times like this one is more than necessary...In the African custom, however rich your brother is, during times of sorrow, you reach out to him in however small way you can afford.”

Tiny Gabon gave $500,000, Djibouti $50,000, Kenya $100,000, and the southern Africa state of Namibia pledged to send $100,000 worth of canned fish.

There was even a fund-raising drive in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which remembers the American help it received during the 1992-’95 Bosnian war. OPEC offered extra crude oil. Among the international businesses that stepped up to the plate was Saudi Refining, a Houston-based subsidiary of Saudi Aramco, which donated $5 million to the American Red Cross.

Donations from Israel, which currently is asking for an additional $2.2 billion in post-disengagement aid from the United States, were downplayed. So were remarks by Israel’s Shas spiritual leader and former Chief Sephardic Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, who said Hurricane Katrina was God’s punishment for Bush’s support for the Gaza disengagement. In his weekly sermon, the rabbi claimed that because New Orleans’ black residents failed to study the Torah, God had said, “Let’s bring a tsunami and drown them.”

Care to retract? Ha you probably AGREE with Rabbi Yosef. Just replace "Torah" with "Bible" and that remark sounds like it came right out of your blonde blue bankrupt banker ranks. (see earlier Bible study class on "Business Model for Today's Church")

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:21 AM
Imams have real jobs. You know, with real working people. The offering plate is not a tool to enrich the teacher. Perhaps your shiny pastors could take note of that. (See earlier Bible College class on "How to spend time raising more money to teach the gospel than actually teaching the gospel")

As to Saudi Arabia being benevolent? HA. Post a site for it and prove it. They're not charitible to non-Muslims (even though we saved their tushie when Saddam went wild in 1990).
Arab doctors? Ha. Would you trust them with sharp instruments? Not me.
From an earlier post: Imams work for free?

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:29 AM
Look hero, I already told you. Ask your questions to the person you have your questions to. See a smelly guy - man up and ask him about it. Asking now just seems to sound like you and your hero shipmates saved your questions until you could get safely back home. But hey, you could always find someone at home to ask too. Be my guest.

(laughing)@bedsheet.

Dude I wear clothes. Those robes must be cultural since muslims in other countries also wear clothes. It is appearing to me that a lot of YOUR clothes are being made there (Malaysia/Indonesia). Perhaps GM will move there as well someday. Who knows?

You know, with all of the "alleged" bathing that the Muslims over here are doing in washing their feet, and their backside, it just isn't working AT ALL. They have the worst body odor of anyone. How can a group of people so intent on bathing stink so horribly? I mean peee--ewe. Maybe they bathe but never wash their clothes. Good grief.
Since you're over there, and dressed up in a bed sheet...I mean Arab garb, I hope you have facial hair. When we were over their, one of our shipmates decided to buy an Arab outfit and walk around as if he too were a Muslim. One problem. He didn't have facial hair. One of the more senior people in our group explained that men who don't have facial hair are considered to be homosexuals. Every time he showed up, we'd all snicker and go "well, here comes Tinkerbell." He never understood why we were all smiling when he showed up. Just pranced around as if it were Halloween, dressed up in his outfit.

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:31 AM
Capn, truth be told, you found them. You list them and we'll work it out. Who knows someone wrote (a how many page?) book to sort it out.

Well, although they work at the Hormel place, they put on the equivalent of a HAZMAT suit, or an asbestos fire fighters suit in order to handle the pork.
I don't care how sausages are made.
You still haven't spoken about the contradictions in the Quran. Thus, we must assume from your silence that they're there, and you refuse to comment. Your faith is that weak?
And who cares if your Dad wasn't a Muslim?

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:35 AM
Prax in all seriousness we discussed this days ago. The last statue (the false god Kubal) was toppled by Mohammed and it was declared a place to worship the one God for all time. Its meaning is to place the roots and basis for the religion to the God of Abraham. Is this going to become like the Noah story again?

Pre-Islamic religion in Arabia was centered around goddess worship. The Kaaba was actually a part of that worship and if you notice the case the meteorite rock is held in looks like a female body part. They would worship it in pre-islamic culture. Today they face it in worship and make pilgrimages to it and circle around it and eventually getting up to it they caress and kiss it. Seriously. They think it dates back to Abraham. It formed a huge part of heathen worship. I find it ironic that a religion that condemns idolatry has such a practice

In those ancient cultures they worshiped gods and often when they were gods of fertility they had sexual symbols like the phalic symbol that we have in Washington DC, the Vatican and in Egypt...that came from ancient false god worship.

http://www.salagram.net/kaba-stone.html
http://www.islam-watch.org/MAsghar/Muslims-are-Fuel-fot-fire-of-Hell.htm

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:38 AM
As long as every answer you give says in some way, form, or fashion "the bible doesn't stand alone go read this or that and it's available in a bookstore or online or or or or or or or or........" your answer is accepted and noted capn. Good enough for me. Maybe Gleason Archer was "inspired" too.

I dunno. Your words are strong. Now I have some doubts. Ima lay this one out in small words and examine it carefully. Who knows I might see something that really is not there.

(1) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

(2) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

You are right. It's there in black and white. It is not a contradiction. You just have to make up some connection between the two passages + jump way over to "before Isreal existed based on the opinions of some bible scholars" + your (how many page?) book + Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy stretch some points and then, after that, it is in fact not a contradiction. It just looks like one to me, the unlearned and ignorant, and perhaps not to a bible college graduate (could that be added to the "logic" class?)

Let's play "what REALLY happened to apostle paul on the road to damascus" next? Please?

If you are stumped, capn redneck, it's because you in fact need someone else from somewhere else other than the bible to explain it FOR you. Because it sure looks, just from reading, like a clear, direct, opposite contradiction. Want to go through them one by one? This could take weeks. Use your bible. Nothing else. Explain from there. It's "inspired scripture" remember.

You are hereby invited, cordially and politely, to entertain your (strange) fetish for toilet paper and use the (how many page?) gleason book for that.

OK. On this one, you don't give me a list of the "20+ contradictions" playing "stump the Christian." So I can answer it, you silly redneck.
Read the Book of Job and you'll figure it out. In the Book of Job (which is according to many Biblical scholars, written before the Pentateuch/5 Books of Moses) Satan is speaking with God. After much debate between the two, God allows Satan to tempt Job, and do just about everything else, but not to kill him. I suspect if I looked deep enough in the Quran/Koran, I'd find something which Muhammed plagarized about this story, and maybe got a few facts wrong in the process.
Therefore, what you see as a "contradiction" in Chronicles and Samuel is really not a contradiction at all. God allowed Satan to provoke David to number the people. Thus, both Satan and God provoked David to take a census. It's really that simple. As to the entire list, I suggest you get a copy of Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. It's 434 pages long (without the footnotes), so transcribing it over this site would be exhausting.

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:42 AM
Be my guest. Post some. Read 'em first. Don't repeat the Noah thing. THAT, now, was truly priceless.

He can't even post a website.

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 10:52 AM
You have said nothing here.

Truth can certainly dwell within someone.
Making abode WITH someone? Why not IN someone?
Lev is out. Jesus did not speak in Lev.
Where in the quotes from Jesus in Acts did Jesus say that God would dwell IN someone and that there would be no temple?

NO - that wording started with Paul. You want to sell this, re-word what Jesus said or find something better to use. Maybe that (how many page?) book by Gleason will help you.

So what if Jesus did not say that? Jesus said he prayed for all those that would believe on Him through the words of the Apostles.

What Paul said agrees with what Jesus said

Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Compare that with
Lev 26:9 For I will have respect to you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish My covenant with you.
Lev 26:10 And you shall eat of the old provision, and clear away the old because of the new.
Lev 26:11 And I will set My tabernacle among you. And My soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be My people.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

1Co 6:17 But he being joined to the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
1Co 6:20 for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Jesus also said of the Spirit

Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
Act 1:6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.
Act 1:8 But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Jesus commanded them to go to Jerusalem and to be witnesses for him. You deny Christ when you deny he gave such commands to his apostles. You do that when you reject what the Apostles preached

Walks_in_islam
04-26-2009, 11:12 AM
<salute> yessir capn. As you were. NOTE: Pigs blood don't bother me. Neither do your lame attempts at cultural insults. That pig blood thing is cultural in fact. Not taught in the Quran at all. Pork is just taught as unclean to eat. Science says it is too lol.....Simple as that.

Touching eulogy on that englund chicky. <re-salute> and so happy nobody checked with you or cared about your opinion before they locked the um girl up, sir.

As to "that Englund chick," I'm not sure if you mean the one who sung on "Britain's Got Talent," and misspelled England, or if you refer to Libbie Englund from the Abu Gharib prison. Personally, I think she (Libbie Englund, US Army) was railroaded, and should have been given The Medal of Honor, and promoted three levels. I can pretty much figure out how that "dog collar" thing came about. Since Muslims consider Americans to be dogs, some wise cracker probably made the comment about us being dogs. Her response: "you wanna talk about dogs, put this on." Nope, she should be running the place. This was the same place where Saddam had rape rooms, and sent people go through paper shredders (either head first or feet first) that were actually made for something other than processing paper. People went in screaming. Husbands were forced to watch their wives, or daughters being raped. You cry over a few naked Arabs in dog collars or dressed up like KKK men in garbage bags? Cry me a river. She's a hero in my book. We should have parades in her honor. It was just after 9/11, too. I'll bet there were 1,000 others who'd do the same. Arab torture doesn't even come close to being as humane as American torture. Bring back General Pershing's method. Incidentally, I got that wrong about it being in World War One. It was in the Phillipnes. He did that to 49 Muslims (soaked them in a grave pig's blood), and released the 50th. For over 42 years, the Muslims didn't try again. We should learn from him (General Pershing. Incidentally, General Patton served under him in WWI. That probably explains why the Germans feared Patton more than others). I'd do it in a "New York minute." Go get the pigs ready. Maybe Hormel has some pig's blood available. As my cousin said, 9/11 was just a "dress rehearsal." You don't show cowardice or compassion to Arabs at all. You keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer.

Praxeas
04-26-2009, 02:06 PM
Prax in all seriousness we discussed this days ago. The last statue (the false god Kubal) was toppled by Mohammed and it was declared a place to worship the one God for all time. Its meaning is to place the roots and basis for the religion to the God of Abraham. Is this going to become like the Noah story again?
The Kaaba is a pagan place of worship. Muhammed should have destroyed it if he was really from God and against idolatry instead of adopting it and using it for his own idolatry.

I will say it again: The Kaaba was a place of goddess worship. The covering of the meteorite stone depicts a female vulva. Ancient worshipers kissed it and hoped for a blessing. Women hoped they got pregnant. Many ancient pagan gods were about fertility. Some gods had the phalic symbol...the Arabs and their worship of godesses had the stone encased in a female vulva.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Assets/islam-black-stone-in-kaba.jpg

http://www.islam-watch.org/Assets/islam-black-stone-kiss.jpg

Muslims carry on the same practice as the pagan ancestors of the Arabs

Praxeas
04-26-2009, 02:09 PM
You have said nothing here.

Truth can certainly dwell within someone.
Making abode WITH someone? Why not IN someone?
Lev is out. Jesus did not speak in Lev.
Where in the quotes from Jesus in Acts did Jesus say that God would dwell IN someone and that there would be no temple?

NO - that wording started with Paul. You want to sell this, re-word what Jesus said or find something better to use. Maybe that (how many page?) book by Gleason will help you.
I didn't say anything, the word did. I showed how even in Jesus's own words, like in the days of the Temple, God would be with us and IN us. God is a Spirit. When Jesus speaks of the Spirit HE is referring to God.

If you do the research you'd see that to be baptized WITH the Spirit is the same as being filled WITH the Spirit. Just as God's glory filled the temple NT Christians themselves are filled. It's hard for you to grasp, I know, but that is due to the fact that you are an unbeliever.

Praxeas
04-26-2009, 02:14 PM
Islam today reminds me of the Holy Roman Empire of old.

They were works based. They forced their religion on others. They set up religious governments. They persecuted those of a different faith. They would use violence to enforce their laws.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 03:17 PM
Imams have real jobs. You know, with real working people. The offering plate is not a tool to enrich the teacher. Perhaps your shiny pastors could take note of that. (See earlier Bible College class on "How to spend time raising more money to teach the gospel than actually teaching the gospel")I don't know what kind of work they do. Arabs consider manual labor to be disgusting. So a church pastor would more easily be willing to clean out his own church's toilet, get dirty fixing things (clogged sinks, garbage disposals, empty the trash, fix a car for a friend, etc., etc.). I don't see any males of the Islamic persasion doing that. Imams look like they get plenty of sleep, and not very many long hours.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 03:23 PM
There was even a fund-raising drive in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which remembers the American help it received during the 1992-’95 Bosnian war. OPEC offered extra crude oil. Among the international businesses that stepped up to the plate was Saudi Refining, a Houston-based subsidiary of Saudi Aramco, which donated $5 million to the American Red Cross.

Are you mixing up the 9/11 donations with Katrine "donations?" I seem to remember Rudy Guiliani returning one donation from an Arab country after they made some sick remark about Israel. No, I won't retract because you don't cite a source at all (dates, sources, not just some source in the state department). I don't trust you, or other Muslims about as far as I can throw them. And I've run across some chunky ones, too. Give me something more than just "so and so." I seem to remember a bunch of Muslims cheering at the devastion from Katrina, and claiming it was prrof that Allah was against "the infidels."

As to Bosnia, we were on the wrong side of that one, and alot of us in the military flinched and wished we had taken the side of the Christians on that one, and should have carpet bombed the Muslims with B-52's for weeks. We know it's gonna soon come back in the butt and bite us. there are signs it already has. Thanks Clinton. You took the wrong side on that one.

Where'd you get the info? Al Jazeera?

Still waiting for a response on the contradictions in the Quran. I provided you with 4(or was that 5). You provided none. You also never answered how God created light before he created the sun, moon and stars.

The silence is defeaning.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 03:28 PM
Look hero, I already told you. Ask your questions to the person you have your questions to. See a smelly guy - man up and ask him about it. Asking now just seems to sound like you and your hero shipmates saved your questions until you could get safely back home. But hey, you could always find someone at home to ask too. Be my guest.

(laughing)@bedsheet.

Dude I wear clothes. Those robes must be cultural since muslims in other countries also wear clothes. It is appearing to me that a lot of YOUR clothes are being made there (Malaysia/Indonesia). Perhaps GM will move there as well someday. Who knows?GM? You mean "Government Motors?"
You're just too chicken to answer any questions. Four people have asked questions and you play silent. Is your Imam sitting there beside you with a big shiny sword? You come here on this forum and are just too chicken to answer any questions. The cognitive dissonance that must be running through you is perhaps just too much.

Walks In Islam (ofacism): "Cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck (while bobbing head and picking through stones to eat on the ground)...buck, buck, buck, buck!"

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 03:32 PM
Prax in all seriousness we discussed this days ago. The last statue (the false god Kubal) was toppled by Mohammed and it was declared a place to worship the one God for all time. Its meaning is to place the roots and basis for the religion to the God of Abraham. Is this going to become like the Noah story again?If you talk with an honest Muslim (are there any?), they'll tell you that the term Allah existed before Muhammed's illiterate writing. And it was attached to a false, pagan God. Muhammed merely plagiarized and reinvented it.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 03:45 PM
As long as every answer you give says in some way, form, or fashion "the bible doesn't stand alone go read this or that and it's available in a bookstore or online or or or or or or or or........" your answer is accepted and noted capn. Good enough for me. Maybe Gleason Archer was "inspired" too.
If you like, I can give you other books as well. Though it'd be cheaper buying one book that answers all of them rather than 20.

Praxeas
04-26-2009, 04:31 PM
How about The Satanic Verses....Seems to me they were so embarrassed over that they pulled an assassination contract on the author

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 06:51 PM
In a Sept. 6 State Department briefing, spokesman Sean McCormack focused on Arab offers of assistance to the United States. He omitted any mention of Israeli participation, however.
Who in the world is he? Madelyn Albright, Condaleeza Rice and Hillary Clinton are the last three "State Department" names that I know of. You might as well have said "Joe Blow from Kokomo."
Left out any mention of Israel? Alarm bells are going off...why omit Israel?
Curious note.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 06:59 PM
Muslim countries proved once again that they care about the American people, even if they disagree with U.S. foreign policy. Qatar donated $100 million, along with a statement that read, “Please accept our solidarity as well as our heartfelt condolences for the tragic loss of so many precious lives.” Kuwait donated $500 million worth of oil products and other humanitarian aid. The United Arab Emirates ruler, Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahyan, contributed another $100 million in donations, including medicine, medical equipment, food, tents, clothing and other relief supplies. Donations poured in from Saudi Arabia, Oman, Turkey, Afghanistan, Egypt, and India. Indonesia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Thailand—still recovering from their own tsunami disaster—also sent generous contributions. When people think of Muslim countries, these aren't exactly what first comes to mind. India is not a Muslim country. The majority is Hindu. Afganistan? Does that include money from the poppy fields?
When I think of Namibia, I don't think of Islam. Same with Kenya. Where's Somali (we have half their people living in our state driving taxis).
When I was active duty, Oman was an enemy of the U.S., or was it vice versa?

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 07:05 PM
Tunisia sent two planeloads of blankets, tents and supplies as a gesture of “friendship between the people of Tunisia and America.” Are these the same blankets that we gave to the Indians in the 1800's that were full of diseases?
My point is, your list is long, but it's just numbers by some guy who I've never even heard of, or probably Prax for that matter. Appears to be Al Jazeera P.R. and nothing more.
Note: Please look up how many Arab nations have parking tickets from the New York City police that refuse to pay for them because they work for the United Nations. I'll bet it's equal to all the numbers you throw here. not to mention what we pay to the U.N. each year, while others live rent free, and live as diplomats. But are probably spies of some kind.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 07:12 PM
(1) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

(2) And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

You are right. It's there in black and white. It is not a contradiction. You just have to make up some connection between the two passages + jump way over to "before Isreal existed based on the opinions of some bible scholars" + your (how many page?) book + Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy stretch some points and then, after that, it is in fact not a contradiction. It just looks like one to me, the unlearned and ignorant, and perhaps not to a bible college graduate (could that be added to the "logic" class?)

SIGH.
If God is more powerful (omnipotent)than Satan, God has the ability to allow Satan to do something if it's in His will. Thus, both God and Satan result in David numbering the people.
Still waiting on those Islamic contradictions to come:foottap......................

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 07:14 PM
Look hero, I already told you. Ask your questions to the person you have your questions to. See a smelly guy - man up and ask him about it.
Why ask a smelly guy over here when I can ask a smelly guy over there in Mecca-land where you are?

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 07:18 PM
If you are stumped, capn redneck, BTW, I don't mind that title at all, and I'd sure take a "Redneck Woman" like Gretchen Wilson. I enjoy being a redneck. They built this country, and can kick any Muslim butt big time. next time they hit this country, the U.S. should turn that black stone in Mecca to either a) a very fine black dust or b) glass heated to about 20,000 degrees.

Thomas Trini
04-26-2009, 07:21 PM
How about The Satanic Verses....Seems to me they were so embarrassed over that they pulled an assassination contract on the authorI think he's still in hiding over it. Oh, don't forgot that artist in Northern Europe over the cartoons of Muhammed. Ayaan Hirsi Ali ("Now they call me Infidel") as well.

Praxeas
04-26-2009, 11:45 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11537914

BTW the money was given or pledged (but not given) by governments, not the general population, that are friends or allies of the US (and or also looking to buy favors)

oletime
04-27-2009, 05:01 AM
most of it fell into the last category pledged but NOT given !

Pressing-On
04-27-2009, 07:26 AM
Be my guest. Post some. Read 'em first. Don't repeat the Noah thing. THAT, now, was truly priceless.

Yes, it was priceless considering that no records in history dispute the fact that Mohammed's first wife was his first convert and was worshiping and sacrificing to the very gods in Surah 71:23 because her sons were dying at a young age. (Haykal, Mohammed. The Life of Muhammad, P.69).

He could always beat her: [4:34] - ‘Men are in charge of (or overseers of - qawwamuna) women, as Allah has given them more (strength) than the other (sometimes translated as made them superior to the other), and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). Therefore women who are virtuous are obedient to God, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what God would have them guard. As for those women on whose part you fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adribu) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. For God is Most High, Great (above you all).

A little different than the loving kindness the Lord admonishes in the Christian home: Ephesians 5:28 "So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself."

And here the passage begins with the admonition to submit one to another expounding further on the role of each spouse.

Ephesians 5:21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

(22)Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

(23)For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

(24)Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

(25)Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

(26)That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

(27)That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

(28)So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

(29)For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

(30)For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

(31)For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

(32)This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

(33)Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

In your Quran it appears you can change at any whim as long as you believe in Allah and his prophet.


[66:2] Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise.
[66:3] When the Prophet confided a fact unto one of his wives and when she afterward divulged it and Allah apprised him thereof, he made known (to her) part thereof and passed over part. And when he told it her she said: Who hath told thee ? He said: The Knower, the Aware hath told me.
[66:4] If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant, (ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban); and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad) then lo! Allah, even He, is his Protecting Friend, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers; and furthermore the angels are his helpers.
[66:5] It may happen that his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you, submissive (to Allah), believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, widows and maids.

Walks_in_islam
04-27-2009, 09:04 AM
[QUOTE=Pressing-On;742109]Yes, it was priceless considering that no records in history dispute the fact that Mohammed's first wife was his first convert and was worshiping and sacrificing to the very gods in Surah 71:23 because her sons were dying at a young age. (Haykal, Mohammed. The Life of Muhammad, P.69).

It was priceless considering not one scrap of historical documentation exists to suggest Muslims EVER prayed to any God but one. After all, every idol at the Kabaa was cleaned out, destroyed, all traces removed. Your apostle paul killed christians for sport after all just like you kill muslims for sport.


He could always beat her: [4:34] - ‘Men are in charge of (or overseers of - qawwamuna) women, as Allah has given them more (strength) than the other (sometimes translated as made them superior to the other), and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). Therefore women who are virtuous are obedient to God, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what God would have them guard. As for those women on whose part you fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adribu) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. For God is Most High, Great (above you all).

This is what I was taught: It seems to fit the context of quwwamuna which means "protector" in the same context as "garment".

Sûrah al Nisa 4:34
As for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adriboo) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

The key to the problem is the mistranslation of the two key words 'nushuz' and 'adriboo'. Some of the possible meanings for both the words, according to the lexicon are given below. Again, the appropriate meaning will depend on the context of the verse.

Nushuz: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord, violation of marital duties on the part of either husband or wife.

Adriboo (root Daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part etc.

In the context of the above verse the most appropriate meaning for nushuz is 'marital discord' (ill-will, animosity etc), and that for 'adriboo' is 'to separate' or 'to part'. Otherwise it is inviting the likelihood of a divorce without any reconciliation procedure and this will contravene the Qur'anic guidance as shown in verse 4:35 below. The separation could be temporary or permanent depending on the reconciliation procedure, and this fits in very well with the divorce procedure outlined in the Qur'an (see 8.5). Therefore the more accurate translation of the above verse would be:

Sûrah al Nisa 4:34
As for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.

The verse following the above verse gives further weight to the above translation.

Sûrah al Nisa 4:35
And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever knower, Aware.

Good thing he was not christian. He could beat her AND the kids.

(Prov 20:30) Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the innermost parts.
Proverbs 23:13-14 “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.”
Proverbs 22:15 “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

"And of His signs are this: He created for you helpmeets from yourselves that ye might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect" (Surah 30:21).

Pressing-On
04-27-2009, 09:22 AM
Another proof that the text of the Qur'an could be and was changed at the whim of the prophet:

Surah 2:106 "Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof."

Another translation:

[2:106]None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Abrogation - what a great idea Mohammad had! And so the saying was, "Mohammad utters something today and abolishes it tomorrow."

That isn't hard to understand as the background of Mohammad's life is nothing compared to Jesus Christ - Emmanuel - God with us!

At age six he loses his mother. Following her death he was passed into the care of his grandfather, Abdel-Motaleb, who then died three years later.

At nine years old, he as passed to the care of his uncle, Abu Taleb, who was a successful businessman. He made Muhammad a camel driver for his commercial caravans. Muhammad grows up in a society in which power and money defined your standing.

In his early teens, he travels to Syria and Palestine as a driver to his uncle's camels. By campfire and the markets of eastern Byzantium he became acquainted with various traditions, both Christian and Jewish.

From some of his greatly distorted accounts of the Christian faith that he provided in the Qur'an, it appears that he, more than likely, received an outline of the Christian teaching by various Christian sects in Arabia.

Around 595 AD the Ethiopians threatened Mecca, Muhammad runs away from the conflict, which exposed him to contempt and ridicule. He became a Shepherd at age 25 to make ends meet. In his culture, that was the lowest job.

A traveling cloth merchant offers him a job as an assistant. He ends up, on one of his travels in a market town south of Mecca. He then meets a wealthy widow, Khadija, who was 15 years his senior. Some historians say that she proposed to him. Regardless, he became her camel driver and moved up in the company as a partner before marrying her.

Some say that his detachment from Meccan society in his late thirties prompted the development of his dreamy and contemplative side.

One day he came out of one of his trances, shared that with his wife, in which she replied, "You are the Messenger of God."

From there we study to see that Muhammad's cousin, Waraqah b. Naufal, a hanif (A pre-Islamic (Arabian) monotheist whose beliefs are thought to have descended from the time of the hanif Abraham, independently of Judaism, Christianity or Qur'anic Islam.) who had read Christian literature and eventually became a Christian shared these writings with Muhammad who, in turn, came to interpret messages similar to those sent to Moses by God and other prophets. He became convinced that his first vision and the information he obtained from his cousin should be shared with other Arabs.

He didn't have a good start and had no new revelations or messages for about 3 years, which caused a bout of depression for him. In 613 AD he decided to go public with his revelations.

At first his messages were simple, focusing on submission to Allah, the end of the world and the Day of Judgment and on the practice of charity.

Most of his ministry was received with indifference because of his past and his running away from his uncle in Mecca. He was deemed a coward.

Eventually he had around 39 converts and they spent days in acts of worship and prayers.

The thing that I noted was that his success was due to his mastery of the Arab language and that alone appealed to his audience who were enamored with form over content. How eloquent words can move the masses! We see that every day in politics.

I see a more powerful and moving story of love when I study the life of Jesus Christ. Your teachings refuse to accept Jesus Christ because you don't understand that he was not a second person or third person. He is and was God incarnate - The Father, the son and the Holy Spirit - Isaiah 9:6.

This was of his own doing and why we can call him the "Father". It is not a 1+1+1 thing. It's a 1x1x1 - that, as you know, equals "one".

So, if you want to have confidence in a runaway camel driver, that is your prerogative.

Timmy
04-27-2009, 09:26 AM
Well, you AFFers don't have to worry about me converting to Islam. Their holy book is subject to very different interpretations. Who'd want to sign up for something like that? :winkgrin

Pressing-On
04-27-2009, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=Pressing-On;742109]Yes, it was priceless considering that no records in history dispute the fact that Mohammed's first wife was his first convert and was worshiping and sacrificing to the very gods in Surah 71:23 because her sons were dying at a young age. (Haykal, Mohammed. The Life of Muhammad, P.69).

It was priceless considering not one scrap of historical documentation exists to suggest Muslims EVER prayed to any God but one. After all, every idol at the Kabaa was cleaned out, destroyed, all traces removed. Your apostle paul killed christians for sport after all just like you kill muslims for sport.


He could always beat her: [4:34] - ‘Men are in charge of (or overseers of - qawwamuna) women, as Allah has given them more (strength) than the other (sometimes translated as made them superior to the other), and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). Therefore women who are virtuous are obedient to God, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what God would have them guard. As for those women on whose part you fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adribu) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. For God is Most High, Great (above you all).

This is what I was taught: It seems to fit the context of quwwamuna which means "protector" in the same context as "garment".

Sûrah al Nisa 4:34
As for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adriboo) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

The key to the problem is the mistranslation of the two key words 'nushuz' and 'adriboo'. Some of the possible meanings for both the words, according to the lexicon are given below. Again, the appropriate meaning will depend on the context of the verse.

Nushuz: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord, violation of marital duties on the part of either husband or wife.

Adriboo (root Daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part etc.

In the context of the above verse the most appropriate meaning for nushuz is 'marital discord' (ill-will, animosity etc), and that for 'adriboo' is 'to separate' or 'to part'. Otherwise it is inviting the likelihood of a divorce without any reconciliation procedure and this will contravene the Qur'anic guidance as shown in verse 4:35 below. The separation could be temporary or permanent depending on the reconciliation procedure, and this fits in very well with the divorce procedure outlined in the Qur'an (see 8.5). Therefore the more accurate translation of the above verse would be:

Sûrah al Nisa 4:34
As for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.

The verse following the above verse gives further weight to the above translation.

Sûrah al Nisa 4:35
And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever knower, Aware.

Good thing he was not christian. He could beat her AND the kids.

(Prov 20:30) Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the innermost parts.
Proverbs 23:13-14 “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.”
Proverbs 22:15 “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

"And of His signs are this: He created for you helpmeets from yourselves that ye might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect" (Surah 30:21).

No, the Bible doesn't talk about beating your wife. Correcting a child would be a different story. A wise parent would know when a whipping should occur. As we see, except in the case of abuse, Christians have moved on from the OT ways, but you are still there.

You are also correcting and leaving a woman for any reason other than fornication, which is adultery, according to your above quotes. Here you beat them both.

Surah An-Nur, Verse 2:
“The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, - flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”

The Bible says:

I Cor 7:2 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

It tells us to avoid fornication, but no instruction on beating the daylights out of someone that has committed fornication nor any other sin.

You are still living under the OT when God spoke of someday coming -

Joel 2:28 :And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

But, you refuse to miss what He prophesied what He would be and who He would become - that he would put His Spirit in us - the earnest of our inheritance - the hope of glory.

You cannnot be one of His without His Spirit dwelling in you - Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. We will never have the same mind and I'm not going to get ugly about it either.

Walks_in_islam
04-27-2009, 10:59 AM
I cannot be one of you whose teachings in one part of your bible completely and directly contradict another part of the bible. Islam does not teach to beat your wife. No more than the bible teaches you to beat your children. Your bible darn sure has the same penalties for adultery that the quran does. Stoning as I recally from an earlier post (with chapter and verse, shall I go get it for you?). Your pet apostle just taught something different. It's a "softer way" (laughing) because JESUS who said "I have not come to change the law but to fulfill (restore) it and cleaned the temple and Paul who spelled out an entirely new law and declared "bodies as temples" sure do not agree. Pau's law sure did tell your "loved wives" to shut up and listen in church and to cover their heads. But, he didnt mean it that way (even though it's clearly spelled out). (see earlier reference to bible school class on "How to convince sheep that cover your head or shear it ACTUALLY means have hair in the first place)

No, you play "muslim dress-up" when you do your annual christmas programs (laughing) when once a year you DO follow the instructions of your pet apostle (the council of nicene's pet apostle i mean).

Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the innermost parts.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

To your "loved" wives:

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God (laughing - what bigoted nonesense!)
Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. What law? See below......And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (I guess they are outa luck if they are not married eh?)
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Contrast it with the pre-Paul law, the one that JESUS "did not come to change but to restore"

So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly of men and women and all who could hear with understanding on the first day of the seventh month. Then he read from it in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate from morning until midday, before the men and women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. So Ezra the scribe stood on a platform of wood which they had made for the purpose… And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up. And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. Then all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!" while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

We also pray with our faces to the ground.





[QUOTE=Walks_in_islam;742166]

No, the Bible doesn't talk about beating your wife. Correcting a child would be a different story. A wise parent would know when a whipping should occur. As we see, except in the case of abuse, Christians have moved on from the OT ways, but you are still there.

You are also correcting and leaving a woman for any reason other than fornication, which is adultery, according to your above quotes. Here you beat them both.

Surah An-Nur, Verse 2:
“The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, - flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”

The Bible says:

I Cor 7:2 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

It tells us to avoid fornication, but no instruction on beating the daylights out of someone that has committed fornication nor any other sin.

You are still living under the OT when God spoke of someday coming -

Joel 2:28 :And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

But, you refuse to miss what He prophesied what He would be and who He would become - that he would put His Spirit in us - the earnest of our inheritance - the hope of glory.

You cannnot be one of His without His Spirit dwelling in you - Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. We will never have the same mind and I'm not going to get ugly about it either.

Pressing-On
04-27-2009, 11:44 AM
I cannot be one of you whose teachings in one part of your bible completely and directly contradict another part of the bible. Islam does not teach to beat your wife. No more than the bible teaches you to beat your children. Your bible darn sure has the same penalties for adultery that the quran does. Stoning as I recally from an earlier post (with chapter and verse, shall I go get it for you?). Your pet apostle just taught something different. It's a "softer way" (laughing) because JESUS who said "I have not come to change the law but to fulfill (restore) it and cleaned the temple and Paul who spelled out an entirely new law and declared "bodies as temples" sure do not agree. Pau's law sure did tell your "loved wives" to shut up and listen in church and to cover their heads. But, he didnt mean it that way (even though it's clearly spelled out). (see earlier reference to bible school class on "How to convince sheep that cover your head or shear it ACTUALLY means have hair in the first place)

No, you play "muslim dress-up" when you do your annual christmas programs (laughing) when once a year you DO follow the instructions of your pet apostle (the council of nicene's pet apostle i mean).

Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the innermost parts.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

To your "loved" wives:

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God (laughing - what bigoted nonesense!)
Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. What law? See below......And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (I guess they are outa luck if they are not married eh?)
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Contrast it with the pre-Paul law, the one that JESUS "did not come to change but to restore"

So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly of men and women and all who could hear with understanding on the first day of the seventh month. Then he read from it in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate from morning until midday, before the men and women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. So Ezra the scribe stood on a platform of wood which they had made for the purpose… And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up. And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. Then all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!" while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

We also pray with our faces to the ground.


I believe you have some contradictions of your own to take care of, which have been posted on this thread.

[4:34] - ‘Men are in charge of (or overseers of - qawwamuna) women, as Allah has given them more (strength) than the other (sometimes translated as made them superior to the other), and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). Therefore women who are virtuous are obedient to God, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what God would have them guard. As for those women on whose part you fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adribu) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. For God is Most High, Great (above you all).

Adriboo (root Daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part etc.


Which part of "beat" them did you not get? It says to beat your wife, WWII.

We dress in "period" clothing as the Jews dressed for our play productions.

As for women being silent in the church, that is simply a directive that we should not "usurp" a man's authority. Although when and if that happens, we are not beaten. What was your instruction? - beat them but don't break any bones?

The Council of Nicaea is of Catholic origin. I'm sure that many Muslims view the Christian world in the mind of "Crusade", which is unfortunate. You had your own crusades going, so each of you is also at fault. We don't espouse the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

There are meanings of the word "praise" which is defined as bowing prostrate. We do that in our Pentecostal church. So, that is not attributed to your religion only.

Unlike the Christian faith in God revealing Himself to us, you are only having a direct revelation of law. You see your "Qu'ran" as the "perfected Gospel", we see the "perfected Gospel in Christ", the Word incarnate.

You have a conceptual agreement to live out with your god - Allah, we have a relationship with our God = The Mighty God in Christ.

He came to fulfill what testified of His coming. He was NOT doing away with MORAL law. The Moral law that we keep is what He has written on our hearts when He fills us with His Spirit. That is what He was not going to destroy. The Ceremonial Law was done away with (Book of Hebrews) - the rending of the curtain in the temple, when He died on the cross, testified of that very thing - Mark 15:38. You need to study about the death of the testator and understand the purpose of the Book of Ruth. He came to His own, He came as one of us to redeem us. He could not do that if he was not related by blood. He could not do that unless He was from the lineage of David, to fulfill prophecy. He could not do that unless he came unspotted and unblemished. Therefore, His own arm brought salvation - Isaiah 63:5.

But you will not hear because - I Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

shawndell
04-27-2009, 12:04 PM
I cannot be one of you whose teachings in one part of your bible completely and directly contradict another part of the bible. Islam does not teach to beat your wife. No more than the bible teaches you to beat your children. Your bible darn sure has the same penalties for adultery that the quran does. Stoning as I recally from an earlier post (with chapter and verse, shall I go get it for you?). Your pet apostle just taught something different. It's a "softer way" (laughing) because JESUS who said "I have not come to change the law but to fulfill (restore) it and cleaned the temple and Paul who spelled out an entirely new law and declared "bodies as temples" sure do not agree. Pau's law sure did tell your "loved wives" to shut up and listen in church and to cover their heads. But, he didnt mean it that way (even though it's clearly spelled out). (see earlier reference to bible school class on "How to convince sheep that cover your head or shear it ACTUALLY means have hair in the first place)

No, you play "muslim dress-up" when you do your annual christmas programs (laughing) when once a year you DO follow the instructions of your pet apostle (the council of nicene's pet apostle i mean).

Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the innermost parts.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

To your "loved" wives:

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God (laughing - what bigoted nonesense!)
Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. What law? See below......And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (I guess they are outa luck if they are not married eh?)
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Contrast it with the pre-Paul law, the one that JESUS "did not come to change but to restore"

So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly of men and women and all who could hear with understanding on the first day of the seventh month. Then he read from it in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate from morning until midday, before the men and women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. So Ezra the scribe stood on a platform of wood which they had made for the purpose… And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up. And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. Then all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!" while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

We also pray with our faces to the ground.





[QUOTE=Pressing-On;742203]Have you read the book of Ester in the bible?If not you need to.

shawndell
04-27-2009, 12:18 PM
In the book of Ester it took a woman to save a whole poeple from death.Dont under estimate a woman.In the book of Mathew it took God and a virgin woman to bring forth the salvation of all man kind!Dont under estimate a woman.If it wasnt for a woman you would not have life at all.Dont under estimate a woman.With out a woman the name of your family would die.The woman was the last in creation because she was the crowning touch God had to make sure everything was ready for her.Dont under estimate a woman. P.s I think you are just jealuos of women oh fleshly man!!!

Thomas Trini
04-27-2009, 01:15 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11537914

BTW the money was given or pledged (but not given) by governments, not the general population, that are friends or allies of the US (and or also looking to buy favors)I knew if anybody could find the info, you could. But I find it a "little strange" that the donation and the Dubai ports deal are said to be "unrelated." Wanna bet?
Some of the other "donations" to Katrina seem somewhat senseless. Tents? (as if we don't have hotels) Blankets during the summer time (I believe it was August that Katrina happened)? Are they still smoking Khat (a drug tied to weird Islamic/Middle eastern rituals) over there?
I wonder if WII celebrates Ramadan much? I have a friend who was a missionary in a heavily Muslim land. He said their idea of fasting during Ramadan is far different from any Christian fasting. During Ramadan, the Muslims fast during the daylight, but once the sun down over the horizon, they eat and eat and eat and eat. Many actually actual gain weight during this month of "fasting."

Thomas Trini
04-27-2009, 01:19 PM
It was priceless considering not one scrap of historical documentation exists to suggest Muslims EVER prayed to any God but one. After all, every idol at the Kabaa was cleaned out, destroyed, all traces removed. Your apostle paul killed christians for sport after all just like you kill muslims for sport.
I don't think anybody said Muslims prayed to other gods. I believe we all said that the Arabs once prayed to a pagan God, named Allah who was pagan. Muhammed merely changed the context of who Allah was. That's why many of the Arab flags have the symbol of the crescent moon on them. It's "pre-Islam." Get it?

Thomas Trini
04-27-2009, 01:35 PM
Care to retract?
Nope. As Prax pointed out, this was "pledged" money. And the U.S. is still far ahead of Saudi Arabia or any other country as far as aid. Another key point Prax made: it was from the government. Much of our aid comes from private citizens and para-church ministries. Big difference.
SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
You'll also notice the words "pledged (such as Qatar)" and "promised (Turkey)," but nothing else. Hmmm. Guess "Walks in Islam" is gonna have to go into Wkipedia and change that.

Thomas Trini
04-27-2009, 02:01 PM
No, the Bible doesn't talk about beating your wife. Correcting a child would be a different story. A wise parent would know when a whipping should occur. As we see, except in the case of abuse, Christians have moved on from the OT ways, but you are still there.

You are also correcting and leaving a woman for any reason other than fornication, which is adultery, according to your above quotes. Here you beat them both.

One note on that. I think abuse is a good reason for divorce as well. The Bible also says that we should love our wives as we love ourselves. If we're beating our wives, I don't believe we love ourselves or our wives.

StillStanding
04-27-2009, 02:17 PM
I'm still trying to catch Thomas Trini and Walkin in islam online at the same time! :D

Thomas Trini
04-27-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm still trying to catch Thomas Trini and Walkin in islam online at the same time! :DWhy? Do you have the popcorn ready?:ursofunny
I think he's on a different time schedule. He's busy praying west?...south?...north?...east?....ummmm
Aren't you glad we don't serve a God who cares what direction you're praying in?

Pressing-On
04-27-2009, 02:36 PM
One note on that. I think abuse is a good reason for divorce as well. The Bible also says that we should love our wives as we love ourselves. If we're beating our wives, I don't believe we love ourselves or our wives.

Would you call the man a "Believer" if he is beating his wife? If he's not a Believer, then I don't see how he can love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave His life for it.

In that case - ditch him! :thumbsup :D

oletime
04-27-2009, 07:39 PM
oh but he said muslims are commanded to be the protector of the woman not the beater! OOPS TELL THAT TO THE GIRL IN AFGANISTAN WHO GOT WHIPPED {ITS ALL OVER THE INTERNET]BECAUSE SHE WAS "SEEN WITH A MAN WHO WASNT HER RELATIVE" turns out she said no to a marriage proposal. peaceful loving people they are !

Praxeas
04-27-2009, 11:30 PM
I knew if anybody could find the info, you could. But I find it a "little strange" that the donation and the Dubai ports deal are said to be "unrelated." Wanna bet?
Some of the other "donations" to Katrina seem somewhat senseless. Tents? (as if we don't have hotels) Blankets during the summer time (I believe it was August that Katrina happened)? Are they still smoking Khat (a drug tied to weird Islamic/Middle eastern rituals) over there?
I wonder if WII celebrates Ramadan much? I have a friend who was a missionary in a heavily Muslim land. He said their idea of fasting during Ramadan is far different from any Christian fasting. During Ramadan, the Muslims fast during the daylight, but once the sun down over the horizon, they eat and eat and eat and eat. Many actually actual gain weight during this month of "fasting."
Probably just shipped back the tents we sent them

Praxeas
04-27-2009, 11:31 PM
I don't think anybody said Muslims prayed to other gods. I believe we all said that the Arabs once prayed to a pagan God, named Allah who was pagan. Muhammed merely changed the context of who Allah was. That's why many of the Arab flags have the symbol of the crescent moon on them. It's "pre-Islam." Get it?
They still bow to that black rock in Mecca and worship...then they circle around it like a giant mosh pit and kiss and caress it (idolatry)

Praxeas
04-27-2009, 11:34 PM
I'd like to know which translation of the quran are the muslims reading that beat the mess out of a girl for getting gang raped by muslim men.

Or how about the ones that get beaten because their burkha does not cover enough, or that forbids women from working or driving or being in public by herself

Pressing-On
04-28-2009, 07:37 AM
I'd like to know which translation of the quran are the muslims reading that beat the mess out of a girl for getting gang raped by muslim men.

Or how about the ones that get beaten because their burkha does not cover enough, or that forbids women from working or driving or being in public by herself
The Hadith (oral tradition) is an essential guide because the Qur'an doesn't provide enough information regarding important daily aspects of faith and life. It has been said that what the Qur'an teaches in black and white, the Hadith teaches in color.

It's much like the Mishna is to the Jews.

The Masabih al-sunnah is a collection of oral tradition written by a Persian scholar, al-Baghawi, before 516 AD.

The Mishkat al-Masabih is a more improved version written by another Persian traditionist, Al-Tabrizi around 741 AD.

This is an interesting article:

The Sexual Rage Behind Islamic Terror
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=D40CFECB-5B2A-400C-BC31-2E9522FDBB04


This is also interesting:

...such a woman has no remedy except removing her spikes and destroying her weapon by which she dominates. This weapon of the woman is her femininity. But the other woman who delights in submission and being beaten, then beating is her remedy. So the Qur'anic command: "banish them to their couches, and beat them' agrees with the latest psychological findings in understanding the rebellious woman. This is one of the scientific miracles of the Qur'an, because it sums up volumes of the science of psychology about rebellious women.
The Australian Minaret, Australian Federation of the Islamic Councils, November 1980, p. 10.

Pressing-On
04-28-2009, 07:45 AM
They still bow to that black rock in Mecca and worship...then they circle around it like a giant mosh pit and kiss and caress it (idolatry)

Muslims do continue the pre-Islamic pagan rituals by running between the two hills of Safa and Marwa or kissing the Black Stone.

Arab polytheists were accustomed to running between the two hills in order to glorify what they had erected and called "Isaf" and "Na'ila".

Muhammad did, as WWII said, destroy the idols. The Muslims were ashamed to continue the practice and asked Muhammad about it. He claimed that a Qur'anic verse was given to him (lol) that "re-ordered" the practice.

Surah 2:158 Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of God. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that God is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.

Muhammad never did abolish the Kissing of the Black Stone. You will read in various places that one of his followers, Umar ibn al-Kattab, reached the Black Stone, kissed it and said, "I know that you are a stone that does not hurt or benefit. If I had not seen the prophet kiss you, I would not have kissed you."

Pressing-On
04-28-2009, 08:19 AM
Another interesting ritual - the Ablution with water or sand.

Before each prayer a Muslim has to perform his ablution with water. He must wash his hands, feet, face and ears. If he can't find water, he can use sand.

[5:6] O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura5.html

Would that be cleaning or dirtying?